Why American Farmers Are Hacking Their Tractors With Ukrainian Firmware (vice.com)

Tractor owners across the country are reportedly hacking their John Deere tractors using firmware that's cracked in Easter Europe and traded on invite-only, paid online forums. The reason is because John Deere and other manufacturers have "made it impossible to perform 'unauthorized' repair on farm equipment," which has obviously upset many farmers who see it "as an attack on their sovereignty and quite possibly an existential threat to their livelihood if their tractor breaks at an inopportune time," reports Jason Koebler via Motherboard. As is the case with most modern-day engineering vehicles, the mechanical problems experienced with the newer farming tractors are often remedied via software. From the report: The nightmare scenario, and a fear I heard expressed over and over again in talking with farmers, is that John Deere could remotely shut down a tractor and there wouldn't be anything a farmer could do about it. A license agreement John Deere required farmers to sign in October forbids nearly all repair and modification to farming equipment, and prevents farmers from suing for "crop loss, lost profits, loss of goodwill, loss of use of equipment [...] arising from the performance or non-performance of any aspect of the software." The agreement applies to anyone who turns the key or otherwise uses a John Deere tractor with embedded software. It means that only John Deere dealerships and "authorized" repair shops can work on newer tractors. "If a farmer bought the tractor, he should be able to do whatever he wants with it," Kevin Kenney, a farmer and right-to-repair advocate in Nebraska, told me. "You want to replace a transmission and you take it to an independent mechanic -- he can put in the new transmission but the tractor can't drive out of the shop. Deere charges $230, plus $130 an hour for a technician to drive out and plug a connector into their USB port to authorize the part." "What you've got is technicians running around here with cracked Ukrainian John Deere software that they bought off the black market," he added.

Comments

Tractor Users, not Owners

[tinkerton]

As is the case with most modern-day engineering vehicles, the mechanical problems experienced with the newer farming tractors are often remedied via software.

As is the case with most tech products, they try to reduce you to a user, not an owner. Maybe the farmers were tired of the tractor stopping in the middle of the field, and starting projecting ads on the windscreen while downloading an upgrade.

Re:Tractor Users, not Owners

[SirDrinksAlot]

I think you misspelled Upgrayedd.

When there's so many other brands still, I don't know what would incentivise a farmer to buy a John Deere. If a JD was selling tractors like HP sells printers, maybe they're selling the service, but you get the tractor at a steeply discounted price. But they're not and, it's still a premium tractor. I can't see a farmer looking at a JD and knowing they don't own it, and looking across the road to the Case, New Holland, Kubota or <insert other brand here> dealership and not just spitting on the ground and walking over to buy them self their very own shiny new tractor.

Re:Tractor Users, not Owners

[Anonymous Coward]

This. I'm not a farmer, but I do love my Kubota.

Gotta wonder what the import tariff is agriculture equipment--can't seem to find. Does JD (and Cat) have some level of protection?

RRK

Re:Tractor Users, not Owners

[Ritz_Just_Ritz]

John Deere by no means has a monopoly on farm equipment. If I was a farmer, I think this would make Deere completely unattractive. Heavy machinery like this has a pretty tough duty cycle and things break. Cost aside, Farmers often don't have the luxury of time to wait while they have a piece of equipment serviced by a limited number of authorized dealers. Having the option to use an independent mechanic or to (gasp!) fix it themselves would seem like a must have.

I'm not a farmer, but I do have a small Deere diesel tractor that I use for mowing, digging fence post holes, carrying around mulch/dirt/etc. I bought it years ago, but if I were in the market for a new one I now have a reason to avoid Deere.

Re:Tractor Users, not Owners

[Anonymous Coward]

In the current legal system, do you think a manufacturer could offer a tractor without a restrictive EULA? DMCA and copyright law have been so perverted JD may not have much option in this system in order to be profitable and protect its business from others.

Re:Tractor Users, not Owners

[Anonymous Coward]

Fun fact: The EULA and its DMCA backing apply only to the software, not the physical machinery.

1) Buy new tractor.
2) Remove all OEM electronics without any software alteration.
3) Buy a full set of aftermarket electronics that aren't DMCA'ed to hell and back and install them in the new tractor.
4) ???
5) Profit!!!

The only thing needed now is to get someone to start selling the parts for step 3. That company would have to be super-duper-extra-mega-hyper-ultra careful to follow proper clean-room procedures, but it could be done. Reverse engineering is still legal.

The effect this would have on John Deere is that they would try to claim that it invalidated the warranty by doing this. But Magnusson-Moss already prevents them from winning that battle, much less the war they'd start with their customers.

Re:Tractor Users, not Owners

[Anonymous Coward]

Owners being reduced to users? Now, where have I heard that before...oh, yeah, something about software, somebody named Gates.

Re:Tractor Users, not Owners

[Anonymous Coward]

I can imagine that certain processes and procedures (certain kinds of mowing, seeding, etc) used in farmed can only be done with equipment being sold to be used exclusively with John Deere tractors.

Re:Tractor Users, not Owners

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually they do for large machines and the only rival of note is Rostselmash a/k/a Versatile from Russia and their products are significantly worse.

Re:Tractor Users, not Owners

[Anonymous Coward]

My family are small farmers. In many cases are doing their own mechanical work and have been for decades. Whether it be working on a tractor, equipment or rebuilding an old implement they purchased at auction to place into service. No one should discount the mechanic skills of the family farmer.

In their neighborhood, there also exists a large dairy farmer. By this time, probably up around 1,000 cows. My guess is that he has his own mechanic(s) on staff. You can guarantee that anyone on staff would have training similar to an authorized dealer.

For me, I don't farm but I also don't take my car to a dealer for service. Way too expensive.

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Surely, liability is way more important that get things done. I guess that's why electronics has become a golden cage and the times of hacking ataris/commodore/spectrums is long gone. That's what's making society dumber.

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Corporate shill. Liability is with the owner, because that's common fucking sense.

John Deere has too many non farmers

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with a company like John Deere is they loose touch with their customers. John Deere obviously forgot that they service the farmer not the other way around. This too me would have a negative affect on new equipment purchases as well. Growing up in a farming community I know that many farmers do a lot of their own maintenance on equipment. Like any of us saving a little money and avoiding driving that big tractor to a dealer seems like a no brainer. Sadly this kind of behavior is happening to cars and trucks too, where the manufacture wants to lock the DIY out of fixing their cars.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[stealth_finger]

The problem with a company like John Deere is they loose touch with their customers.

Seems to me they have their customers in a fairly tight grip, by the balls, one could even say.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with a company like John Deere is they loose touch with their customers.

Seems to me they have their customers in a fairly tight grip, by the balls, one could even say.

Current customers, maybe. I'm pretty sure those relationships will end with the lifetime of their tractors. Coming from a farming background, I know most farmers usually keep buying the same brand, eg. my dad always used Massey Fergusons. This kind of shit will put an end to that.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[AmiMoJo]

John Deere seems to have gained too much control over the market and started to abuse the customers who don't have much choice. I guess other manufacturer's tractors are less attractive for some reason... Maybe they don't have a good dealer network or something.

Otherwise the customers would just buy Kubota or Iseki or some European brand, rather than go to the effort of hacking.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[Mashiki]

Seems to me they have their customers in a fairly tight grip, by the balls, one could even say.

Actual truth. I grew up in a county that was heavy farming with a city industrial base, the friend I had in high school who were in farming families and are still doing it and many of them have long since moved off Deere equipment. Most are using either Fendt or Mahindra simply because of what you're talking about. Dropping $90k(CAD) for a base model Deere is what drove people away from them. The bullshit they're pulling now is just driving them to their competition, especially when you can get the same from a rival company for 1/3 or less with exactly the same warranty coverage.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[Mashiki]

Yeah that's not the case. In some places, especially here in North America you run into "credit union" allowances which allow you to get steep discounts to farming equipment(new and used). Deere has cut deals with some of these, their competition is doing the same now. They've(deere) really cut their own balls off over it, because their competition can take the bite in many cases because of the mnfg cost of their product.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with a company like John Deere is they loose touch with their customers. John Deere obviously forgot that they service the farmer not the other way around. This too me would have a negative affect on new equipment purchases as well. Growing up in a farming community I know that many farmers do a lot of their own maintenance on equipment. Like any of us saving a little money and avoiding driving that big tractor to a dealer seems like a no brainer. Sadly this kind of behavior is happening to cars and trucks too, where the manufacture wants to lock the DIY out of fixing their cars.

I am in the auto industry. Perhaps I can explain John Deere. They are trying to become a services company. They see autonomous vehicles on the horizon and the impact on individual ownership. They are making plans to move to a shared services model for their equipment. This is beginning. But, they're clearly jumping the gun. It's too bad the farmers don't wake up and buy a different brand.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[dosius]

I think I've seen more Ford tractors around than John Deere. With this, I expect that to become even more true.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[T.E.D.]

Growing up in a farming community I know that many farmers do a lot of their own maintenance on equipment.

My Grandfather thought nothing of stopping a piece of farm equipment and rebuilding its engine in-situ. That's the thing about being a farmer; you have to be able to do *everything* yourself. You can't exactly call the Auto club and have your harvester towed back to the dealer. At least I thought you couldn't. Apparently, that's what Deere expects you to do now. Not sure why anyone who isn't a big corporate farm managed by remote MBAs would agree to do that.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[Anonymous Coward]

What is the import duty to import a tractor into the USA?
The $USD has gone up 20% in relative terms in just the last 3 years, while the Indian Rupee has gone south.

Maybe American farmers won't twig onto $400 here and there - for a golden screwdriver shafting - but one doubts it.
When I buy a car, one can use any old gas from any outlet on it. But a tractor is now different?
JD is having a tantrum, and betting its reputation on 'sucker will find out later' ;Unless Trump somehow increases trade protection, the long term backlash seems imminent. In exactly 3 years when they get traded out, and resale values plummet, JD will experience a VW moment.

BTW: Complex Toyota automatic gearboxes and Lexmark Printer ink chips are also doing this - you don't own it caper

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[Anonymous Coward]

I grew up on a farm in rural eastern South Dakota. I visited my brother (who runs the family farm) last year. We drove past the local JD dealership / shop. There were a number of new tractors / implements (although much smaller than historical) and almost no used equipment setting out on the lot.

My brother said nobody is buying new and nobody is selling their used because the new stuff is too expense. I didn't ask, but I'm guessing the "too expensive" is both to buy and to maintain.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[0100010001010011]

John Deere knows exactly who their customers are. They are corporate farms that buy tractors by the dozen. The newest tractors cost

It's the reason you're starting to see a lot of other small tractor companies like Mahindra and Kubota come in and cover the space that Deere used to sell to.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoosh

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[Anonymous Coward]

My old man has 3 Deere and 1 Allis-Chalmers all are over thirty years old. One of the Deere was purchased used a few years back mostly because it was too old to have this BS built into it and the build quality is superior to the late models he had used (other farmers equipment). Another plus is he has been working with them so long he can fix 85% of the mechanical problems he has with them.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[Anonymous Coward]

Or have a service person drive out to the machine?

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[pak9rabid]

I've actually noticed quite a bit of increase in the popularity of Kubota over the past decade, namely because of the price difference, but I imagine shit like this will only increase their popularity.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[Anonymous Coward]

Wonderful! A new use of "service" in the agricultural sense. It does ultimately come down to what livestock do...

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[JohnFen]

I just did a bit of web searching on this topic. It appears that John Deere has been losing market share in the farm equipment sector for years now -- so apparently, farmers are indeed moving to its competitors. It's bad enough that JD is moving more of their focus to construction equipment and away from farming equipment.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[rahvin112]

No John Deere is doing exactly what they planned when they got the GOP congress to put in an obscure clause into a funding bill that exempted Tractors from the repair requirements that automobiles have. This allowed John Deere to completely restrict access to repairs and to have the full force of the law behind them in doing so. With the computerization of all mechanical objects and a little DMCA thrown in they now have complete control over every tractor they've sold.

This was a GOP initiated change to law at the request of John Deere. And it's fucking over their own constituency. Remember that the next time you vote.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[JohnFen]

So JD wants to do to tractors what Microsoft is doing to WIndows 10?

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[Anonymous Coward]

and let's not forget the quality of repair and 3rd party (improved) parts generally is more often better than the manufacturer and 'authorised' dealers.

The only real reason to use them is to maintain a warranty but even that becomes a cost/benefit assessment.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[Anonymous Coward]

Same here, along with MF, IH, Volvo, Fiat and Renaults. The only people who seem to use JD are the caretakers, who basically all save those driving Kubota, seem to use some tiny version of a JD for ploughing snow etc.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[T.E.D.]

Or have a service person drive out to the machine?

...when they can fit you into their schedule? During harvest time, when everyone else is also discovering their harvesters need service, but you need the crops harvested NOW? Yeahhhh.....no.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[operagost]

There is no Federal law regarding repair requirements for automobiles or tractors. The only relevant law is one passed in 1990 that required computer monitoring of emissions and, in turn, required that independent shops be able to access the data.

Both major parties have had control at various times, and neither of them was able to get such a law passed. You have been deceived into becoming a loyal low-information Democratic voter.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[Bob the Super Hamste]

Does Ford make something as large as the 8000 series John Deere? I usually see smaller ford tractors that would be good for up to about 640 acre family farms but nothing like the monsters that Case IH, JD, or Kubota make for huge industrial farms.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[Anonymous Coward]

It's too bad the farmers don't wake up and buy a different brand.

THERE ARE OTHER BRANDS?! WHERE?!?!

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[Anonymous Coward]

They see autonomous vehicles on the horizon and the impact on individual ownership. They are making plans to move to a shared services model for their equipment.

The more expensive tractor models are already autonomous at the fields. The near future brings the optimization of fertilizer, insecticide and herbicide distribution to reduce the costs and chemical load. Farmers have been renting the services and tractors to each other already for years. If John Deere wants to come in the mix, they are about to start competing with their own clients.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[Grishnakh]

Unless Trump somehow increases trade protection, the long term backlash seems imminent.

Yeah, it'll actually be pretty funny if Trump and the GOP are able to set up big trade barriers for farm equipment, eliminating foreign competition and forcing smaller farmers to buy new JD equipment which they can't service themselves (and the GOP-run FTC and DoJ will make sure JD's anti-DIY policies hold up), and running most of them out of business. Because most of these small-time farmers and their rural buddies are the people who voted Trump and the GOP into office.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[SuricouRaven]

The American agricultural industry has been consolidating for years - small family farms are in a slow but inevitably decline. Those big corporate farms have a great advantage in simple economy of scale.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[ratsg]

Or have a service person drive out to the machine?

I believe you really meant to say "field engineer".

Pun intended.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[sjames]

That won't help them for long if they keep going with the lockdown. As soon as word gets around that you can't fix a Deere, their sales will tank there too.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[rahvin112]

Since the arrival of the automobile several federal laws have been passed. The earliest laws prohibited manufacturers from requiring repairs by the dealer, required manufacturers to make parts available and prevented manufacturers from restricting access to repair information and diagrams and also probhited sales contracts that required dealer repairs. In the 70's the Magnuson warranty act prohibited manufactures from voiding warranties for repair work not done by the dealers. In the 90's these laws were expanded to prevent manufacturers from using software as a partial weapon (the software rules should have went much further and prevented any DMCA enforcement and even voided copyright restrictions on modification to equipment you own) to get around the previous restrictions and was included in the emissions law.

Tractors were included in all of these laws excepting the emissions requirements up until a few years ago when the Republican controlled congress deliberately exempted farming equipment with a small change (as part of a unrelated government funding bill) from the prior federal laws. This allowed John Deere to start enforcing all these draconian restrictions that congress had prior to this deliberately prevented and Deere can now can even force purchasers to sign contracts during purchase forcing them to use dealers and even allowing the manufacturer to disable the equipment at a later date as part of these contracts. Prior to the laws revision these contract terms would have been illegal and unenforceable.

The only low information voter is you and your ignorance of federal law that protects you from being forced to use the dealer for your car service. I'd blame the Democrats for this if they'd been involved as I'm NOT a partisan tribalist which to assholes like you means I'm with the opposite tribe. I'd be a millionaire if I got a $1 for every time I'd been accused of being a Democrat or Republican because I've got an opinion on an issue and the relevant tribe is on the other side.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[T.E.D.]

The American agricultural industry has been consolidating for years - small family farms are in a slow but inevitably decline. Those big corporate farms have a great advantage in simple economy of scale.

...and that I think is the answer. When most people think "farmer", they think of a single family-owned and worked operation. Those are still around, but the industry is increasingly large corporations who hire out all the labor. Equipment maintenance is just another bit of labor for them to hire out, and doing it to another large company (eg: the manufacturer) is probably simpler for the books anyway. Deere is likely designing their equipment for those operations. Traditional small farmers are just not their market anymore.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, it'll actually be pretty funny if Trump and the GOP are able to set up big trade barriers for farm equipment, eliminating foreign competition and forcing smaller farmers to buy new JD equipment which they can't service themselves (and the GOP-run FTC and DoJ will make sure JD's anti-DIY policies hold up), and running most of them out of business. Because most of these small-time farmers and their rural buddies are the people who voted Trump and the GOP into office.

Not just that, much of what we export under NAFTA is food. Kill NAFTA and you kill food prices for the farmers. I'll be laughing my ass off when that happens, since they're the ones who voted him in.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[aberglas]

I'd blame the Democrats for this. They did not hold the Republicans to account. Probably because they did not notice.

Or they figured, correctly, that farmers would vote Republican regardless of laws were passed.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[Anonymous Coward]

Ford was purchased by New Holland, which is now a part of CaseIH. New Holland does make large 4WD and row crop tractors. For example: http://agriculture1.newholland.com/nar/en-us/equipment/products/tractors-telehandlers/t9-series-4wd-tier-4a

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[Anonymous Coward]

This is pretty much why we voted Trump in to drain the swamp, and not another Bush/Clinton/Obama...
Of course, it's funny to watch the alligators on both sides uniting to sabotage him now.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[MooseMiester]

Wow you managed to politicize even this! Congratulations.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[MooseMiester]

If this is true you left out "A Republican Controlled Congress passed a bill that was signed into law by a Democratic President"

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[HornWumpus]

Still looking for a replacement for 'Ford makes good tractors'. Mom said if I didn't have anything nice to say, say nothing. For now I say nothing about Fords.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[HornWumpus]

If the equipment breaks down during the harvest/planting the farmer is already screwed. They have downtime in the middle of summer and winter, the smart ones get their equipment as ready as economically possible during those times.

Mega farmers just hire harvester crews, who move south during harvest season.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[HornWumpus]

A lot of those don't even own their own harvester equipment. 'Harvest as a service' exists.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[operagost]

Thank you for your extensive research. Now, eat a dick, you insufferable prick, because what you are talking about is the DMCA written by Republicans and Democrats, signed by a Democrat. Now, provide the name of the bill in which this was somehow changed-- because I can't find it anywhere. It seems like the DMCA is the problem.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you mean, "no"? You just supported the AC you are disagreeing with! They didn't lobby congress to pass exemptions just for the sake of having exceptions. Lobbying congress was merely a tactic used to further the company's strategic goals of transitioning to a services-based company.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but you can't count him because, ... , reasons.

Re:John Deere has too many non farmers

[Anonymous Coward]

"partisan tribalist" - bigotry

A word already exists. No need to invent it

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Bollocks.

If you buy property is yours you should be able to do whatever you want with it.

Regarding the restrictive "contract" the farmer has to sign, that should be illegal.

One possible way around might be if the farmer's wife buys tractor, then farmer's wife sells tractor to farmer. Farmer is not then bound to the contract someone else signed for property he bought from his wife on the second hand market.

I'm British and very economically left wing (no not liberal in any sense of the word) but private property belongs to you not the shitty corporation that made it. Corporations have too much power thanks to liberal economics.

Re:Liability

[Errol backfiring]

Liability is with the owner, because he was forced to sign a contract that makes him liable for anything.

There, fixed that for you.

John Deere is a problem

[Anonymous Coward]

The first and most sensible solution would be to buy a Valtra, or any other competing product that doesn't have such stupid restrictions. There are options out there.

The second solution is to change forceful vendor lock-ins by affecting legislation. In my mind this type of lock-in is very anti-competitive and should be forbidden by law.

Re:John Deere is a problem

[RotateLeftByte]

how long before JD or whoever buy Valtra and put a stop to it?

Re: John Deere is a problem

[Anonymous Coward]

It is prohibited by law. see the Magnuson-Moss Warrantee Act. Companies today blatantly break the law because of arbitration clauses inserted into adhesion contracts in overtly bad-faith, effectively allowing them to break any and all laws they care to.

Re:John Deere is a problem

[Opportunist]

If you want to buy something, the one having it now has to be willing to sell it. What if Valtra doesn't want to sell but instead watch JD crumble?

There have been quite a few cases where competing shops were created for the single reason to ruin whoever was pissing off the wrong people.

Re: John Deere is a problem

[Anonymous Coward]

You can thank Scalia's rotting corpse for why forced arbitration was upheld as legal by the Supreme Court. If Trump gets his way we'll have any even bigger corporate cocksucker in his place.

Re:John Deere is a problem

[Hognoxious]

If Valtra is a publicly listed company they don't make the decision. Their shareholders do. And be sure that if the offer is high enough they'll sell out.

Re:John Deere is a problem

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want to buy something, the one having it now has to be willing to sell it.

Not if they're publicly traded. You don't get to pick and choose who's allowed to buy shares in your company. If they're private, large sums of money are usually sufficient to motivate a sale.

Re: John Deere is a problem

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't buy out a competitor without legal approval from regulators. Even then, you usually have to pay a large premium over the list, because buying up huge shares drives up price.

Re:John Deere is a problem

[Grishnakh]

Valtra, like Fendt, is part of AGCO, a European conglomerate. They're not selling out to John Deere any more than Mercedes is going to sell out to GM; the concept is just ridiculous. Even if JD had the money (which they probably don't), the EU wouldn't allow the sale to go through.

Re:John Deere is a problem

[Hognoxious]

On what grounds? And why do you think they have the authority to do that?

Re:John Deere is a problem

[rogoshen1]

Who owns Chrysler? It's not *that* ridiculous.

Re:John Deere is a problem

[Grishnakh]

The same reason the US and EU governments both investigate large mergers and block them if they think it's too anti-competitive. Try getting Boeing to buy out Airbus and see if the EU doesn't step in and block it. And authority? Why would you think a large government wouldn't have the authority to block a large corporate merger? They do it all the time.

Re:John Deere is a problem

[Grishnakh]

It is. Chrysler was a failing *American* company, bought out by an EU company (and not the first time either, they've been passed around for a while now), not a healthy and large European company bought out by a US company. The EU is more protective of their companies than the US.

Re:John Deere is a problem

[HornWumpus]

Both are somewhat protective of their successes.

Any car company can buy Opel today, but nobody wants it.

Re:John Deere is a problem

[Grishnakh]

What are you talking about? Opel was owned by GM for a long time, and was just purchased this month from them by Groupe PSA.

Re:John Deere is a problem

[HornWumpus]

Somebody bought them? Suckers.

Re:John Deere is a problem

[Grishnakh]

Yeah, those are my thoughts about Chrysler too. Of course, Fiat isn't exactly known for being an automotive leader, and neither is "Groupe PSA" (owns Peugot and Citroen), so I guess it makes sense that these 3rd-rate has-been automakers are consolidating. But in the case of Opel at least, it's going from American ownership back to European ownership.

Easter Europe...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've always wanted to visit Easter Europe, but can't find it on a map...

Re: Easter Europe...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's just next Eggstria.

Re:Easter Europe...

[Farmer Tim]

Don't bother, it's perpetually closed for the holidays.

Re:Easter Europe...

[Anonymous Coward]

Everything to the east of Australia. They have islands with cool statues and stuff.

Re:Easter Europe...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the Orthodox Europe. You know, the Europe that is left as you cut out the Christmas Europe from the whole Europe. (I know, not funny)

Re:Easter Europe...

[Zocalo]

Clearly the poster was using one of Boston's new maps. Europe is much smaller now, so they've probably had to omit some letters to make everything fit.

Re:Easter Europe...

[operagost]

It's a wonderful land where you can buy Cadbury Creme Eggs all year round. And the big old ones, not these little imposters with the crappy chocolate shell instead of Dairy Milk.

Easter

[pahles]

hacking their John Deere tractors using firmware that's cracked in Easter Europe

Let's hope there are no Easter Eggs in there.

Re:Easter

[megaronic]

Firmware for hot cross farmers

Re:Easter

[stealth_finger]

hacking their John Deere tractors using firmware that's cracked in Easter Europe

Let's hope there are no Easter Eggs in there.

Aren't they on Easter Island being laid by them heads?

Re:Easter

[sheramil]

hacking their John Deere tractors using firmware that's cracked in Easter Europe

Let's hope there are no Easter Eggs in there.

perhaps the tractors will make crop circles on the first of April? that'd be a cool-looking easter egg, although an annoying one if you couldn't get off the tractor while it was doing it.

Re:Liability

[tinkerton]

Why not let the insurers prove that the hacking caused the malfunction.

Re:Liability

[Opportunist]

The owner of the tractor. Sorry, I have to be specific in this time and age: The person who paid good money to use a tractor that the manufacturer still thinks is theirs.

Just like the way it has always been.

The main difference being that if you use "original" firmware, rest assured that NOBODY will be liable. If anything, JD will certainly have a way to brush it off on the farmer anyway.

Re:Liability

[cheater512]

Let's assume that the modified version *only* has the licence crap removed.
Then your liability issue is a non-issue unless it's a John Deere bug.

Without evidence saying that something nasty has been added to the firmware (which could be checked) there is no reason to jump to that assumption.

Re:Liability

[Calydor]

Is John Deere legally liable if an UNMODIFIED tractor malfunctions and hurts someone? Nope, that's right there in the summary of the license agreement. Why do you think THAT will change because of modified firmware?

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

That too unfortunately but regardless, surely it's common sense that if you modify something you're taking on liability.

Open Tractor(tm)

[Anonymous Coward]

Time for competition to form the Open Tractor consortium. Components chosen for easy market access, easy repair and open source firmware. Tractor design for easy component access, with signature checks and protected registering for sabotage prevention. "I didn't change the autonomous driving and insecticide spreading components. Why does it tell me so? Aha, hackers employed by the envious cousin, next farm!"

Re:Open Tractor(tm)

[tecker]

This would be one solution but it wont work. No one is going to buy a tractor from some "open" manufacturer that they have never heard of or pay extra for the "open" tractor. There are a number of factors at work here. 1) Emissions ratings that the manufacturer must meet, 2) Vendor lock-in (and therefore fleet lock in), and 3) Pride. You see out here in the midwest folks are mighty proud of the color of their tractor. It can start an argument faster than vi vs emacs. To come into a market dominated by big players will be a challenge. Especially when there is both manufacturing AND mindshare hurdles to clear.

The easier solution was already mentioned in the summary: support the Right to Repair bill, in any state, if your state has made one. This doesn't overnight solve the problems and John Deere would probably just pull a TiVo and lock the software and it is business as usual. And expect pushback from the vendors when it comes to these new bills but it is the first step to taking back ownership rather than "licensing" your use of a tractor.

Re:Open Tractor(tm)

[houghi]

Instead of doing 'Open Tractor', and 'Open SUV' and 'Open Fridge' and ... what needs to be done is a change in law.
Step 1. Make EULA like these illegal
Step 2. Make the interface available
Step 3. Opensource the code

Re:Open Tractor(tm)

[Overzeetop]

But I thought government regulation was bad. Or was that on the previous /. story only?

Re:Open Tractor(tm)

[Anonymous Coward]

In a way, open source is a reaction to the seemingly infinite copyright. Here, the OpenTractor or getting cracked firmware from the Ukraine is a reaction to DMCA. We need laws that encourage innovation rather than turning would be inventors into hackers just for basic functionality. For example, I can ssh into my car, and change the background image (true story).

Re:Open Tractor(tm)

[Archangel Michael]

1) Solar powered/Electric
2) No vendor to lock in
3) Goes before the fall.

Re:Open Tractor(tm)

[Oligonicella]

You see out here in the midwest folks are mighty proud of the color of their tractor.

You must live in a very different part of the MW than I do. Around here, no one give a crap about the color of their tractor, only if it's reliable and you can see many examples of one farmer owning multiple brands of tractors.

Re:Open Tractor(tm)

[Oligonicella]

1) Can't operate your machine on a cloudy day.
2) Realistic view of how much acreage a battery can work.
3) Down time while battery charges.

Re:Open Tractor(tm)

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe just start with aftermarket ECUs that run OSS.

Re:Liability

[Opportunist]

Corporate shill. Liability is with the owner, because that's common fucking sense.

I'm pretty sure that JD will not pay a dime.

Oh, you mean the farmer. I think that doesn't quite fit the description of "owner"...

Re: Liability

[Opportunist]

I'm as liberal as they come, but this is still bullshit. A liberal economy model REQUIRES competition, and anti-competitive measures like this are much but liberal they are not.

Re:Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe, but how much of this situation is the owners breaking their equipment and then asking the manufacturer to fix it for free?

Bearing in mind that the summary talks about not being able to take a machine to an independent mechanic to have a transmission replaced I'd guess few to none, unless independent mechanics somehow charge for neither time nor parts.

Re:Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Opportunist]

Probably less than manufacturers wanting tractor users to pay through the nose for unnecessary "services" and "repairs" that the mechanic's teenage boy can do for a box of sodas.

At least there's a way around it

[SCVonSteroids]

If this were rented equipment, I would understand the company's stance. But if someone outright buys an item, it's theirs. Stop legally binding people to stupid shit when they decide to fork out their hard-earned money for your products. Just because Microsoft does it, doesn't mean it has to be the norm. Christ.

Re:At least there's a way around it

[Anonymous Coward]

But there is money to be made!

Re:At least there's a way around it

[Mashiki]

Deere is trying to make themselves into a "one-stop" company where you're forced to get everything from them. Auto companies tried the same thing in the late 90's and laws were enacted over it because JP, SK, EU and NA automakers all tried to do it. They're trying again with the new versions of OBD's, luckily they're mainly running up against the law and can't. No such real coverage for farmers, but there is good competition. There was a lot of yelling over this last year at the Canada's Outdoor Farm Show(held in Woodstock, Ontario as part of the University of Guelph's research farm), but it's not until something happens that it makes the news. Lot of people don't understand how this stuff would impact their lives either.

That's not even touching on the giant fuckups that have happened in the farming industry in the last year in this province. Like when millions of dollars of tomato's rotted on the vine because the processor decided to fuck up, or when the wheat board was still in power and rye and wheat were rotting out in the fields because there was no storage. Why? Because the wheat board decided to rent off the storage to other companies who then sub-leased to other companies. So when harvest came, storage was full and surprise!

Re:At least there's a way around it

[Overzeetop]

But you didn't buy it, you licensed it. It looks like you bought it, but the agreement you signed only means you own the scrap value of the base metals in the item - not any control or influence on the software that's inside it that allows it to run.

It's how everything is "sold" now. You can buy the scrap, but to operate it you have to agree to a (very limited) license on the 1s and 0s that make it useful.

Re:At least there's a way around it

[evolutionary]

Agreed. Of course Microsoft doesn't really have a monopoly anyway. We can all use Linux and BSD (or MacOS, but why pay such a high price tag when Linux does the job?), and with the Windows 10 security/invasive behaviour/hijacking, hopefully we'll all wake up.

Re:At least there's a way around it

[Anonymous Coward]

Their issue is basically farmers using substandard repair parts and the substandard part breaking one of the other parts on the tractor. Than the farmer claiming warranty repair. They want to minimize costs on the warranty by having the tractor always repaired by a certified mechanic and certified parts. The complexity of new vehicles especially with the amount of electronics incorporated means that mechanics cant be certified on all brands hence the problems with independent mechanics.

Re:At least there's a way around it

[Anonymous Coward]

As for the automakers, if they ever stopped trying to lock people in to their service, they've certainly gotten back into the business. Yes, you can still get your oil changed at Jiffy Plug Thread Stripper down the street, but they've extended OBD and you have to have $BIGCOMPANY's device to read and fix everything. Which they won't sell to anybody but a dealer. Again, yes, there are standardized codes by government regulation, but those only cover the necessary stuff - everything else is under the company's control. Right to Repair, if it ever happens, will certainly be circumvented -- the lobbying is strong on this one, and you can expect court cases to tie it up for years if any such laws pass.

Re:At least there's a way around it

[Anonymous Coward]

Its probably more along the lines of: 'The difference between this tractor and that more expensive tractor is one line of config. All the hardware required for x,y, and z are there, but unless you pay for it, you don't get access to it.' You can't get away with that business model unless you can make sure nobody tampers with the software.

Re:At least there's a way around it

[Anonymous Coward]

This is what you get when you combine the Microsoft business model with vertical integration. It's like when Nokia made their phones run max power all the time when they detected any other manufacturer's battery.

Re:Liability

[arglebargle_xiv]

Liability is with the owner, because that's common fucking sense.

The owner is, and remains, John Deere. The farmer is renting it, and agreeing to pay its bills.

CCCP1 : Tibor's Tractor (SCTV video)

[Anonymous Coward]

What happens when a tractor is possessed by the spirit of Nikita Kruschev?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqZGBawsg8k (2 minutes long)

SaaS

[Anonymous Coward]

Software as a Shackle. Nuff said.

We are quickly drifting from a (mind you, pretty localized) societal construct where democracy (you get to take part in the decisions) and state of law (laws are written down, everyone has (in theory) equal chances, everyone has recourses) back to something which resembles more a feudal system of yore. Free speech? Ah, but Pissbook is a privately owned company, so... Right to tinker? Ah, but you signed the contract, so...

'Twas nice while it lasted.

Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

These tractors from the Indian company are pretty good, all old school, old tech. No fancy nancy software controlled stuff. Simple rugged diesel engine and clearly understandable mechanical parts. Apparently it is competing well in South Africa with other global giant farm equipment companies, due to "fix it and run it in the bush several hundred miles from the nearest repair shop" ability. Sub compact models are available in USA too.

Re:Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[jenningsthecat]

These tractors from the Indian company are pretty good, all old school, old tech. No fancy nancy software controlled stuff. Simple rugged diesel engine and clearly understandable mechanical parts. Apparently it is competing well in South Africa with other global giant farm equipment companies, due to "fix it and run it in the bush several hundred miles from the nearest repair shop" ability. Sub compact models are available in USA too.

Sure - and even a simple bit of environmental legislation purchased by John Deere from yer friendly neighbourhood lobbyist will make these tractors illegal, at least until they live up to the emissions requirements that the JD tractors will meet, undoubtedly via VW-type software shenanigans. That will be followed by 'buy American' legislation, and foreign tractors will be shut out of the US market.

Think about it - even a paltry 20 years ago the gubmint would have stepped in and spanked John Deere for this egregious abuse, and now they're turning a blind eye, which in this case is tantamount to them supporting a mega-corp giving farmers the shaft. Pardon the pun, but the solution to this problem has to be 'home grown', and it involves 'grass-roots' action to utterly fucking destroy this corporate blockade. Doing end-runs and workarounds ain't gonna cut it - the system is badly broken, and it needs to be fixed.

Re:Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in AG, and this is not true at all. Mahindra has all the same ECU's and tech other tractors have, its required for Tier 4 emissions. From what I've seen their tech is vastly more simplistic. The diagnostic abilities of their stuff is extremely limited where it just throws a code rather than giving data streams from the different subsystems.

Re:Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Simple, simplistic, just semantics.

Are you sure you are working on the South African export versions? I thought they add all this emission control only to the models exported to Canada/USA/Europe/NewZeland/Australia.

Anyway that is what that random passenger, working for M&M SouthAfrica, sitting next to me on a flight from Dubai to Chennai told me.

Re:Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[bayankaran]

Oh well, this is like comparing a Tatamobile with a Ford 150. Its not even Apples to Oranges.

Re:Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[Anonymous Coward]

How about farmers everywhere walking into JD dealerships, negotiating a deal right up to the point of actually signing the contract, then explicitly asking about the EULA and when being told, turning and walking. The salesmen will quickly get the hint and at least lead with commentary on the EULA. No doubt some blowback from dealerships to the mothership as well. And if salesmen get frustrated enough, they'll leave, some for morals, some for simple economics. Like any grassroots action, this doesn't need to be done broadly. Pick one dealership outside Des Moines. Businesses actual look for and expect direct pushback that affects their bottom line, anything short of that is a stamp of approval for their policies. You can't sell tractors without tractor salesmen. "What happened to Joe? I always negotiated with Joe when buying." "He 'retired.'" "That's not what he said at dinner last weekend."

Re:Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[cdrudge]

That will be followed by 'buy American' legislation, and foreign tractors will be shut out of the US market.

What does "buy American" mean though? Mahindra is an Indian brand, but makes most of their US-sold tractors in the United States. John Deere is a US brand, but manufacturers tractors and parts all over the world.

Same thing goes with automobiles. Is that US brand vehicle made in Mexico American? Or is the Japanese brand made in the US?

Or is your American-based Apple iPhone that's made in China by a Taiwan company with parts from many other countries "American"?

Re:Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[0100010001010011]

live up to the emissions requirements that the JD tractors will meet,

They already have to. There are different emissions tiers for different power ratings. A 50 HP tractor doesn't have the same emissions as a 500 HP tractor.

Re:Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[Overzeetop]

But then you've just wasted 4 hours of your day and prevented your neighbor, Joe, from getting commission so you've wasted his 4 hours too. To John Deere, there's no loss - you weren't going to buy that tractor to begin with. The dealership lost $30 in Joe's time and incremental costs (copying and such) since they pretty much just pay him on commission and the office would have been open anyway. Nobody cares except you, who now don't have the new tractor you need, and Joe, who just lost 1/10 of his weekly pay because of your hijinks and whom you are going to have to look in the face at Church on Sunday, along with his wife and three kids.

Re:Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[Anonymous Coward]

The big problem with Mahindras is they keep dropping your fertilizer in the street.

Re:Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[Anonymous Coward]

There are many different factories owned by M&M. M&M bought an existing US company and the company continues to manufacture for the US market. The tractors exported to SA are made in India in their existing factories. Though they are in the process of merging the product lines they are still mostly separate.

Re:Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[Anonymous Coward]

Simple, simplistic, just semantics.

Are you sure you are working on the South African export versions? I thought they add all this emission control only to the models exported to Canada/USA/Europe/NewZeland/Australia.

Anyway that is what that random passenger, working for M&M SouthAfrica, sitting next to me on a flight from Dubai to Chennai told me.

I'm in the USA.

Re:Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[Anonymous Coward]

Mahindra does not build tractors here. They bolt on tires. Their 'factories' are managed by local US dealers who put tires and attachements on tractors that are already built. I know one of them personally, they operate out of a defunct Walmart. Infact, Mahindra does not really build most of their tractors at all.. most come from Mitsubishi or TYM (South Korea). The better ones are Mitsubishi, the ones Mahindra builds themselves are shockingly crude.

Re:Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[budgenator]

Mahindra has a nice looking 105Hp model for $63,440, but if you need something in the 642Hp range at $642,000, you're not going to find it there.

Re:Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[Grishnakh]

That will be followed by 'buy American' legislation, and foreign tractors will be shut out of the US market.

Yep, and who voted for the Republican politicians and president who push this? Rural voters, the ones who are being harmed by it the most. Maybe karma really does exist.

Re:Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[Grishnakh]

Joe is trying to screw you over by selling you a crippled product. Fuck him. He's as much a part of the problem as the guards at Auschwitz. "I was just following orders" is no excuse.

If you can get all the salesman to quit because they're not selling anything, and you can waste the dealership's time and cause them to have zero sales, they're not going to stay in business for long. If they go out of business, great. That just hastens the demise of Deere, because they can't continue to operate a company with no dealers and no sales.

Sure, the office would have been open anyway, but they have a limited number of salespeople. The only loss here is 4 hours of the farmer's time, but if you always choose the path of most convenience every time, you get the situation we have here: sellers and mfgrs screwing you over. If every farmer did this, once a week, things would change.

Re:Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[Oligonicella]

And you will be known locally as a jackass, not someone with an opinion who simply bought another brand. It will be remembered, and in short order you will be severely hamstrung in simply doing business with a lot of people because they will simply avoid you. Things don't work the same way in rural communities as they do in cities where there's always someone at hand you haven't purposely screwed over. And we tend to see Joe as someone caught in the middle of things, not a hostile adversary.

Re:Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[Anonymous Coward]

So you're saying that your former friends and neighbors will shun you because you had the audacity to act, apparently. Personally, I think they'd be more tolerant of the farmer in the same boat as them, rather than that salesman, regardless of close community. They'd be questioning why he could in good conscience sell them something that is designed to bend them over. The four "wasted" hours demonstrate just the opposite--an emphatic belief that JD is going down the wrong row. Businesses do not understand anything except the stick to change their behaviors. If I were a JD dealer and this started happening, I surely would spend more than four hours complaining upstream. And what if this foreign firmware eventually winds up having ransomware included? Those who downloaded it certainly won't be blaming themselves.

Business has long gone from "building a better mousetrap." They now build wedges, exploits, monopolies, patent portfolios. That their employees are friends or neighbors should give them moral pause, and certainly offer no absolution from being good neighbors themselves. Corporations routinely reward based entirely on bottom line, in ways that they argue are bad when performed by individuals. Why should their business have an exclusive on jackassery as a model? The farmers would just be translating the issue into one JD can understand.

Re:Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. Isn't "buy American" legislation just more regulatory overburden? Cut all that out. Going forward without an effective EPA, why do we need to keep producing ethanol? I get more mileage from my truck using 9/10 of a gallon of gas than I do from 9/10 of a gallon of gas and 1/10 of a gallon of ethanol. It costs more to produce that 1/10 gallon anyway, between JD maintenance bills and diesel and patented corn and petrochemical fertilizers and land use and especially water. Run government like a business, right? Corn subsidies are one of the worst forms or corporate welfare. Compete on merits.

The problem is that it may look like karma because many of "them" are some of the first to the front lines, but it all catches up with everyone eventually. The "hope," if you want to call it that, is that enough get affected enough quick enough to change enough to sway elections, and those elected doing enough.... I would rather not the majority of us sit out lives in hospice while a small minority count inheritances.

Re:Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[Grishnakh]

but it all catches up with everyone eventually.

Not necessarily. This board is likely full of people who are fairly well-off, have valuable tech skills that are highly transferable, and have the ability to leave a sinking ship for other nations if need be. Rural farmers don't have that so much, and can't just pack up and skip the country if things go south in a bad way. The rural voters have really screwed themselves.

Re:Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[Anonymous Coward]

What you need is right in front of you! Buy 6 of those 105Hp Mahindra model tractors, connect them in "series" and you get 630Hp for $380,640!

I've saved you $261,360... and my commish is a modest 10% ($26,136) - you shouldn't have a problem with that.

Happy farming! :-)

Re:Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Why argue with someone who equate salesmen on commission with Auschwitz guards?

Re:Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Shockingly crude, indeed. Very rough tolerances, very approximate parts and mating. It is a machine for the bush, what would you expect? But you can roughly fix it with hand whittled twigs and branches.

Re:Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Wish mechanical engineering is as simple as electrical engineering.

Re:Use Mahindra & Mahindra

[Anonymous Coward]

Those "fancy nancy software controlled" robot/tractors are exactly where the demand is. Farmers don't want old tech and aren't romantic about old-school. That's just a waste of money.

Farmers aren't anti-technology, they just want the rights to repair it.

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Are these actually just rental agreements or are they mimicking that through idiotic and restrictive End User License Agreements? Article implies it's a EULA given it applies to drivers too. Are these tractors legally capital equipment of John Deere?

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

People are still hacking ataris/commodore/spectrums, they just aren't hacking new computers. (Apart from switching capacitors from the early 2k capacitor bork.)

To be fair there isn't much you easily can do to improve your regular desktop PC even if you had all the documentation available.
Sure, you can add new peripherals to the SMBus and add BIOS-support to them, but is there really anything worthwhile to do that you just can't do with an already available expansion card?
Unlike older computers modern computers are designed to be expandable.
It's not like you can add extra memory to the computer by wiring in a few chips and cutting a trace.

Best case scenario is that you have a motherboard PCB that is used for multiple models and that you can solder in a few extra connectors.

The closest thing that is sort of worthwhile to tinker with would be a Raspberry Pi, but again everything is so integrated that you can't really gain anything from modifying the base PCB, you just have a connector that is more accessible for hobbyists and a computer that is so limited that you actually want to add more stuff to it.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember that the word liberal have lost its original meaning in American English.
Saying that you are liberal when you mean that you promote liberal economy makes sense in British English but needs further clarification in American English.

Good!

[MouseTheLuckyDog]

The more this shit spreads out from the software world, the sooner it ends.

Re:Good!

[AntronArgaiv]

The more this shit spreads out from the software world, the sooner it ends.

A farmer buys a tractor so he can farm, not so he can become a continuing revenue stream for John Deere.
The lesson for Deere is that if you squeeze the customer too hard, he goes elsewhere to relieve the pain.

Re:Good!

[Anonymous Coward]

The same can be applied to any business. Every used big iron, or the so-called midrange systems that run the world's financial systems? They're milked to death by annual fees, regardless of "updates". Got more CPUs? Cost goes up. Got more storage? Cost goes up. Even MS are happy on this model, and you can bet Apple are itching at it when they have a product that doesn't require buying new. The whole world is moving to rental or sucking blood on a monthly basis.

Purchased Adobe software recently? No, you can't. Already monthly subs on annual contracts today. Greed has won.

Re:Good!

[Anonymous Coward]

> The more this shit spreads out from the software world, the sooner it ends.

That's positive thinking and I support that (really, no sarcasm).

Nevertheless, one has to consider what does it mean to the American economy as a whole. Excessive dependency on foreign products (and don't think people will stop at firmware) is not good.

Not that it is my problem, I'm not from the US... just saying...

Re:Good!

[dosius]

"The more you tighten your grip, Governor Tarkin..."

Re:Good!

[houghi]

That is not how things work. It will get worse. The playingfield is not fixed. It keeps changing and the companies change it in their favour.

Re:Good!

[Anonymous Coward]

The whole world is moving to rental or sucking blood on a monthly basis.

Well, not open source. I don't use commercial software at all. Neither do various companies that have switched. If I want an extra CPU or extra storage I can buy that hw - and the cost of software stays at zero.

Some folks just have to use "what they already know", despite it "not being what they already know" due to big differences between versions. windows vista was unlike windows xp and is not the same as windows 10 - yet the stupids repeat the "familiarity argument".

I do fine without windows - and without any sw that "require windows". Adobe? Not needed, there are alternatives.

The "sw rental system" is fine with me - it shows so much clearer that I don't pay a monthly bill and still get functionality. Oh, so your rental sw has a few features making it "better"? Is that limited betterness worth the whole price? My sw doing nearly the same isn't "slightly cheaper". It is completely free!

And if you bring up TCO - sure, my sw needs the occational maintenance. Which costs time, even if it not necessarily costs money. But you have that with commercial sw too, and then you pay on top of the monthly fee . . .

Re:Good!

[geekmux]

The more this shit spreads out from the software world, the sooner it ends.

Ah, because that mentality somehow stopped every new car rolling off an assembly line being controlled by an ECU?

Give me a fucking break. Once a revenue model is deemed successful enough, Greedalone will ensure this shit perpetuates throughout the industry.

Re:Good!

[AmiMoJo]

This probably works out well for John Deere. They still sell a tractor, and either get to retain ownership via DRM or are absolved of all warranty issues because of the hacked firmware.

Re:Good!

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't' the problem, though, if Deere competitors begin doing the same thing? Not sure if they have yet, but hopefully one or more think not doing so is a good way to attract competitor customers...

Re:Good!

[Anonymous Coward]

If I "buy" it, I want to "own" it. I will take responsibility for maintenance, keeping it running, repair, etc..., but I want to be able to improve and hack it if it suits me.

If I "lease a service" of you, I won't touch it, but I expect you to deliver that service and require no changes in AUP, fees, etc... after I sign. I also demand a reasonable compensation if you fail to deliver that service.

Seems fair to me.

Re:Good!

[Anonymous Coward]

Cadence and other IC design software companies charge MASSIVE licensing fees per user.

And typically, each user needs a license for many things.

It is absolutely not unheard of, for Cadence, or Mentor, or other licensing fees to be MORE than the cost of the IC Designer's salary.

Meaning, that when you buy any chip designed by such, you're really paying more to the company that makes the software, than those that designed the chip.

Re:Good!

[HornWumpus]

You have to be a special kind of stupid to hack on a system still under warranty. I bet 99% of hacked firmware installs happen just after warranty expiration. Just like suping up a car, you don't do it to a brand new one.

It's much more fun to outrun cars that cost their owners much more than yours. You should have seen the Maserati drivers reaction when he lost to an old Civic (twice), he shit himself.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess you can use "Libertarian"

Re:Liability

[Lonewolf666]

I've read it, and it is mimicking that through idiotic and restrictive End User License Agreements. For the software.
There is no explicit clause that forbids tinkering with the hardware, but that seems to be enforced by the software. As in, change a part that has a microcontroller and it won't work without a John Deere technician coming and authorizing it.

Besides, if I read paragraph 13 correctly, the owner of the tractor has to indemnify John Deere and its dealers against all and any lawsuits, even if John Deere or the dealer is at fault for the cause of the lawsuit. That goes beyond everything I've seen in software EULAs so far. Those usually demand only indemnification against lawsuits that arise out of actions by the owner.

Re:Tractor investors, not breakers.

[SomeoneFromBelgium]

For a farmer a tractor is a very big investment and much of their success as a farmer is riding on it (sorry for the pun).
So I don't think a sane farmer will want to do anything to it that would ruin it.

Sure you allways will find some counter examples, like some people that first by a Mercedes S class and then run into all kind of issues with it because they are too cheap to have it properly maintained.

BTW one could make the same reasoning for normal cars: "Gee I'm fed up with all those cars comming in for repairs under waranty. From now on if you as much as change the oil yourself: that's it. Your on your own".

Re:Tractor investors, not breakers.

[SomeoneFromBelgium]

That should have been "You're on your own". Sorry for my abuse of the english language.

Re: Liability

[TheRaven64]

No, libertarians are the ones that believe that oppression is too important to be left to the government and should be handled more efficiently by the private sector.

Common Economic problem

[Psilax]

As an engineer in a big multi-national I also see similar things going on in our company.
They try to prevent untrained/unauthorized technicians from doing what we call "low-level" maintenance even though our equipment might be of vital importance of that buyer.
In our company this is not necessary bad intent towards the customer, but more a way of protection our own business because selling only gives you 1 paycheck, service gives you hundreds in the course of years.
Our machines are pretty comparable in complexity to modern tractors I believe as years of research and development have made it so they are of higher quality for the customer. This does not immediately relate to longer life times of our products but does improve on requirements because of new industry, government & environmental standards.
But it also makes it harder to do a correct maintenance if you don't know the complete working of the machines.

Anyways, I don't want to justify John Deer's way of working, or any other car manufacturer ( because that seems to be the case here in Europe), but I do understand their position better.

The customer should be informed when they buy a product that their new product can only be maintained by the approved technicians, there for the EULA probably that has been forced onto the farmers.
I also don't know how the market competition is for farming vehicles in USA, Europe or the rest of the world.
And I think that part should be fixed then, if there is no (reasonable) competition/alternative for the farmers then there is a problem there.

Re:Common Economic problem

[110010001000]

Exactly. That is what the flight to IaaS/SaaS/Cloud is. It is a way to extract regular rent from customers in order to keep the company CFO happy. CFOs like regular monthly revenue for their planning.

Re:Common Economic problem

[Opportunist]

Sorry, but there is exactly NO reason to need a "specialist" to make an oil change or switch out a spark plug. There is also no technical reason to put the electronics behind an encrypted access instead of creating an open standard.

Yes, there's more money in services and vendor lock-in. That doesn't mean I have to understand or even support such practices. It's despicable, and I only use that world to remain civil.

I can understand when you say that you don't want to be liable for shoddy service and faulty maintenance, but disallowing it altogether is NOT the way to go. It's trivial to create relevant seals for physical service and signatures for electronic maintenance to identify "official" service work from "self serviced" machines, and void certain (extended) warranty promises if someone you didn't approve monkey wrenched the machine.

It's been that way for a long while with cars now. Some extended warranties only apply if you keep going to the official service partners and have them change your oil in the prescribed intervals and have them do all inspections, along with doing all the repairs they require to sign off your service booklet.

But the ultimate choice of whether to go with the official service and enjoy the extended warranty promise or to waive it and fix your own gear is up to the owner. And yes, I do consider the person paying good money for your product the OWNER of the product from the moment of PURCHASE.

Re:Common Economic problem

[0100010001010011]

Sorry, but there is exactly NO reason to need a "specialist" to make an oil change or switch out a spark plug.

And there isn't. They don't even have spark plugs to begin with.

You can't just slap any transmission into a new tractor and assume it'll work because it fits. Are the shift points set for that engine rating? There are hundreds of other software interactions that go on.

Re:Common Economic problem

[coofercat]

FWIW, if the terms and conditions of operation and maintenance of the vehicle are made clear by the vendor at sale time (or hire time?), and are fixed for the life of the product, then I'd have to say "fair enough". If you don't like the terms, buy elsewhere. If a vendor decides that the support calls from modified vehicles are too much hassle, then they do (IMHO) have the right to stop them from happening.

However, in this cases JD are quite massively extending their side of that agreement without giving anything in return. As such, it's quite rightly being criticised. I suspect if JD has said "for anyone who bought their tractor before X date, we'll give you 10K refund", I doubt anyone would be complaining nearly as loudly (although it'd still be a highly questionable action on their part).

It's a little like HP pushing out software (with a timer on it) that suddenly stopped accepting non-HP ink. As customers we lost something we had at the time of purchase, and so we're quite rightly pissed off and now buying non-HP printers any chance we get. The difference being printers cost a couple of hundred, where as these cost a quarter of a million, and so don't get replaced nearly as often.

Re:Common Economic problem

[Opportunist]

Hand over the specs, then.

Re:Common Economic problem

[Opportunist]

Not to mention that you cannot easily say "Screw JD, I'm gonna buy ... erh ... uh ...", yes? What do you want to buy instead?

And what could you get the same conditions for? Farmer unions (or what they're called in the US) often have deals with certain equipment makers or dealers that pretty much mean you can only afford to use a certain piece of equipment.

Re:Common Economic problem

[JohnFen]

In our company this is not necessary bad intent towards the customer, but more a way of protection our own business because selling only gives you 1 paycheck, service gives you hundreds in the course of years.

How is that not "bad intent towards the customer?"

Re:Common Economic problem

[Palinchron]

In our company this is not necessary bad intent towards the customer, but more a way of protection our own business because selling only gives you 1 paycheck, service gives you hundreds in the course of years.

I hate to break it to you, but trying to extort the customer for maintenance IS bad intent towards them.

Re:Common Economic problem

[Oligonicella]

There is no dearth of tractor brands. What the fuck is a farmer union?

Re:Common Economic problem

[Anonymous Coward]

>> In our company this is not necessary bad intent towards the customer, but more a way of protection our own business because selling only gives you 1 paycheck, service gives you hundreds in the course of years.

If you have to service an equipment hundreds of times, it's very badly built to begin with.

>> selling only gives you 1 paycheck, service gives you hundreds
Yep. But don't rely on it by forcing your customer. Then you will have none of the above.

>> The customer should be informed when they buy a product that their new product can only be maintained by the approved technicians
That is never the case. There are always other people than the manufacturer being able to repair things. Trying to brak that will lose you market share.

Re:Common Economic problem

[HornWumpus]

I've heard of Frog farmers going 'on strike' for higher prices. Apparently not realizing they were independent businesses and were blowing their own peckers off.

Re:Common Economic problem

[cwsumner]

The manufacturer technicians being the ones who know how best to fix it, is a nice idea. But these days it is not often true, companies hire the cheapest people they can. And give them a "two week course of memorizing", then assume they can do the work.

I've lost count of how many times I have had to train the company techs just to get my work done, and then had to fix something afterward. I am sure the farmers, large or small, feel the same way...

No offence meant, to the company techs that are experts, but you guys are getting really hard to find! ;-)

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

The owner is, and remains, John Deere. The farmer is renting it, and agreeing to pay its bills.

Try googling for "second-hand John Deere tractor". If people other than John Deere are buying and selling them, then how can they belong to John Deere?

Under a sane legal system (not the USA) an "agreement" only "applies" to people who have "agreed". So, although the original purchaser may have signed their rights away, the buyer of a second-hand vehicle is unlikely to have agreed to or to have signed any stupid stuff. Of course, they probably won't have any valid guarantee/warranty from the manufacturer at that point.

Re: Liability

[Billly Gates]

Bollocks.

If you buy property is yours you should be able to do whatever you want with it.

Regarding the restrictive "contract" the farmer has to sign, that should be illegal.

One possible way around might be if the farmer's wife buys tractor, then farmer's wife sells tractor to farmer. Farmer is not then bound to the contract someone else signed for property he bought from his wife on the second hand market.

I'm British and very economically left wing (no not liberal in any sense of the word) but private property belongs to you not the shitty corporation that made it. Corporations have too much power thanks to liberal economics.

No you bought a copy. You only bought the right to use the tracker. THe real tracker is one inside John Deere. :-)

THis is how Microsoft make their EULA with DOS/Windows. Basically you do not really buy Windows. You buy a right to use it and the goodness of MS to include a copy but not really the real WIndows etc.

Lawyers fascinate me

There are several other manufacturers

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, that advise is pointless when one owns a newer John Deere tractor, but anyone who needs a new tractor should shop for a different brand. Nothing makes a company reverse course faster than a massive drop in sales. Ukrainian firmware has to do in the meantime.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Bollocks.

If you buy property is yours you should be able to do whatever you want with it.

I agree, and I am a software programmer.

Regarding the restrictive "contract" the farmer has to sign, that should be illegal.

There is always the option of not signing. Perhaps they can then disable the tractor - but you counter that with this Ukrainian software. Installing third-party sw in an embedded device (tractor, playstation, car ECU, TV, phone, whatever) is legal. Well, unless it is pirate stuff, but they have to prove that first.

Anyway, if the Ukrainian stuff is illegal, then the farmers could set up a company to rewrite the sw for scratch - crowdfunding style. With thousands of farmers jopining in, this won't be expensive, and then they can recoup some of that cost by selling "custom firmware" without John Deere restrictions.

I don't see why John Deere bothers with this. Unlike microsoft, they aren't really making money on software. They sell hw - tractors. A natural reaction might be "DIY parts void your warranty", but the farmer who installs a third-part transmission is out of warranty anyway so custom sw won't make a difference.

As we clearly see - there is a market for DIY-friendly farm machinery, including DIY control sw. Manufacturers would be wise to acknowledge that. John Deere is not the only tractor around.

thiefs

[Anonymous Coward]

simple. did someone force farmers to buy JD tractors? if not then it is nothing else as stealing. next time buy other tractor without those stupid terms

Re:thiefs

[Grishnakh]

The liberals (at least here in the USA) aren't the ones worshiping the "invisible hand", those are the libertarians.

Post technopocalypse

[Anonymous Coward]

>what you've got is technicians running around here with cracked Ukrainian John Deere software that they bought off the black market

Now that's what I call Cyberpunk!

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry mate but if your checkout says "buy", I buy the product.

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, according to John Deere, whoever you harmed is liable, so long as you make them sign a paper - possibly even after the fact - informing them that if anything goes wrong or they get run over, that's entirely on them and they are not allowed to hold you responsible for the repeated or non-repeated rolling over them that then ensues.

This applies to anyone who gets harmed by the tractor or touches it on their way under one or several of the wheels.

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

I take it you missed the whole open bios stuff...

Re:Liability

[LifesABeach]

Results A/C, when it's your unplowed field, we'll see what you have to say about it.

Re: Liability

[LifesABeach]

Says you A/C, how about this John Deer law applied to sharpening a pencil?

Re:Liability

[jabuzz]

Actually a sane legal system (still not the USA) does not permit you to sign your legal rights. You can sign a contract claiming that you are waving your legal rights but those clauses are null and void as far as the courts are concerned.

Re:Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Feyshtey]

That's a different conversation. If you modify the tractor in a way that is unsupported by the manufacturer, you void the warranty and John Deere is released from responsibility. It's not at all unlike your TV, or your cell phone, or millions of other products on the market. But what we're talking about here goes well beyond that. John Deere and other manufacturers are lobbying government to make law out of the notion that while you might have paid upward of a quarter million for that tractor (not an unusual sum with modern agriculture equipment), you don't actually own it, and you're not allowed to do anything with it that John Deere doesn't expressly allow.

Re: Liability

[Opportunist]

The US definition of "liberal" and "conservative" are going the way their definition of "socialist" went a long time ago: The gutter.

They define it by the loonie fringe groups. Being a liberal means that you're somehow in SJW territory, and being conservative means you have to agree with the Westboro Baptist Church bullshit. The idea that most people belong to NEITHER camp but are actually moderates, close to the center and generally ok with accepting some things the "other side" has to say and give it at least a whirl as a thought experiment, i.e. the notion that it could actually be that the "opponent" is RIGHT with some of the things he's saying, that's become a completely alien concept.

Because if you don't toe the party line and drink the cool-aid, you're one of THEM!

Re:Liability

[mrbester]

Even better, if the clause cannot be declared null and void, then the *entire contract* is.

Re: Liability

[Feyshtey]

Mommy's little angel is such a good little child. Look how he only does exactly what he's told by the nice bureaucrats.

Legislation & the right to repair

[AwooOOoo]

Regarding the right for owners to have a choice in how their machines are serviced...

In Europe there is legislation coming into effect in July 2021 which will requires OEMs to provide information to 3rd parts service tool manufacturers and Independent Operators such that they can achieve the same level of diagnostic capability as the OEM with their own tools.
See links like:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal...
http://www.cema-agri.org/publi...

In the U.S. there is no equivalent legislation in the U.S., but I would not be surprised if we see something similar in a few years. There are groups lobbying to this end, such as;
http://repair.org/association/

Disclaimer: I work for one of the 'other' Ag manufacturers on the topic of making the machines comply with this legislation

Re:Legislation & the right to repair

[Elfich47]

Various legislatures are trying to get it though and a wide variety of industries are fighting the legislation tooth and nail. If this legislation makes it through one state house into law you will see many lawsuits on the matter. Some companies will try to sell a "California only" version of their product and try to keep customers from buying from that state, or try to make the software incompatible between right to repair states and non-right-to-repair states. Software forking here we come! There are several other Slashdot articles on the subject. Below is one of the more recent ones. https://news.slashdot.org/stor...

Buy American

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea, Fuck that.

Easy solution. And works elsewhere

[Anonymous Coward]

Scrap copyright on bytecode/object code. There is nothing "expressive" about firmware or compiled code. There's no license and an attempt to do so under copyright would be an abuse of copyrights and barratry, quite serious a crime.

Open source would be required for ANY copyrights to be applied "as a joint work" to software. And copyrights could only grant rights that pierce copyright restrictions, NOT add any new restrictions.

Even without the last bit, open source for the firmware here would allow others to see what is going on and what could happen, and plan for it. If it contained a remote cutoff, then farmers could insist that this is not a sale, since they cannot be the owner if the company still controls the use of it. That would then mean if the machine broke down, that's John Deere's problem, it's their problem to to supply a replacement. After all, it's not the farmers' tractor that broke.

Re:Easy solution. And works elsewhere

[AwooOOoo]

...and if someone modifies the engine control or transmission control software and that destroys the hardware, is that JD or the customer who is at fault by your delineation? Also, when you drive on the road you benefit from the fact that automotive manufacturers like (like planes and trains in other industries) must comply with certain practices and demonstrate that they are safe to receive a type approval which allows them to drive on the road. The same applies to tractors as they drive on the road between fields. If someone modifies their steering control software and a software fault causes the machine to veer across the road and cause one or more fatalities, who is to blame then? Is the farmer not only liable for the deaths, but also for not meeting the requirements required to drive on the roads in the first place, which typically require 1000's of hours of testing. If I am going to work for a company (a farm) as a machine operator how do I know if my owner has put on non-standard software to save a few bucks and perhaps put my life in jeopardy? I'm all for open source and will freely install on my PC, but i wouldn't put it on my car (or tractor) not only for my safety, but those around me.

Re:Easy solution. And works elsewhere

[Anonymous Coward]

You're a fucking moron. You're arguing the equivalent of not letting anyone change their own car tyres *because someone might put crappy tires on and kill someone*. You're saying *no-one* should be able to modify or repair *anything* because it might endanger someone.
How about this? If you modify something and it hurts someone as a result, then *you're liable*? The way the law has *always been* until this sort of crap started?

You're not locked in

[maitai]

So... just buy something not John Deere... I mean, the logo on the equipment won't match your cap (which is free advertising for the company you seem to not like) but hey...

Re:You're not locked in

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't know what you are talking about, don't say anything.

The situation is not that simple. There is little or no viable competition for large modern farms.

Re:You're not locked in

[Anonymous Coward]

Fendt 1000: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JftKO1MbIQ4

Re: Liability

[Opportunist]

My job description says my place in society is to hack equipment I did not design or develop.

May I be present when you discuss with my CEO why his CISO can't pentest and risk assess the tools he's supposed to roll out company-wide?

Re: Liability

[Z80a]

Even if it was designed to not work right on purpose?

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

If you buy property is yours you should be able to do whatever you want with it.

That is still the case with a John Deere tractor. It's not illegal to fix or modify the tractor, all you do by making unauthorized repairs is void the warranty on the equipment and software that Deere sold you.

Re:Liability

[Opportunist]

Taking liability and responsibility for something you cannot even assess the risk of, let alone mitigate it?

Among people working in security such jobs are nicknamed "ejector seats". With someone else having the launch trigger.

You better pay me well if you plan to put me on one.

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

This should be illegal!!!!?

Then you better take you car to an authorized dealership to have the wipers replaced.
You know, those after-market wipers might streak and be the direct cause of you becoming
involved in an auto accident and possibly injuring yourself or some innocent children.

Geeze, gimme a break. Oh, wait, you agree with that and do take you car to a dealership.

CAP === 'debaters'

Re: Liability

[fisternipply]

The word of the day is: "Neoliberal." Means something completely different from "liberal" and you will note that the entire US political system operates on neoliberal guiding principles -- they just pretend not to. Read Shock Doctrine for an excellent introduction. Another word that applies here to John Deere is "rentseeking."

Vote with your wallet

[heson]

Stop buying limited rental products!

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking from experience; they do this because a large portion of their profits are made in repairs. If you are a farmer and you only have a few weeks to get your crops planted and your equipment breaks down you will pay way more than what the repair is actually worth if you are losing money each day it's not in operation, in fact you may even be looking at bankruptcy and ruin all because the local dealerships wants $$$$ for a repair that should cost $$$ You will pay the extra money because the alternative is worse

A John Deer bonfire...

[BlueCoder]

Farmers should organize an event to burn old non repairable John Deer equipment and advertise their purchase of non John Deer equipment. And further sell t-shirts about how John Deer is no friend to the American farmer. Do this at the Forth of July celebrations. And have town hall meetings with speakers telling their Horror Stories about John Deer. Find another manufacturer and help promote them over John Deer. Some of them might even give you a deal on a trade in if you publicly destroy your John Deer. Do not stop until everyone currently on the board of directors and otherwise that are running the company are completely replaced.

In the meantime get the right to repair laws on the books.

Re:A John Deer bonfire...

[Anonymous Coward]

Both Burning And/Or replacement by a different brand are considered unauthorized repairs under this software clause and any losses to the company to a minimum value of the initial purchase price of each individual piece of equipment plus the cost of any software upgrades will be retrieved through legal action in a court of law.

Re:A John Deer bonfire...

[bluefoxlucid]

Everyone seems focused on the farmers and their poor little butthurt selves.

What about the downstream cost? These failures reduce productivity and thus increase the cost of food. They draw money to John Deere for no value-add (rent-seeking). These things reduce the total number of products you can buy with your money (wealth), and reduce the number of people receiving (jobs) the money spent for a given investment of labor-hours (wages).

The inefficiencies of requiring a tech to stop by just to sign-off on a hardware change that actually works--and to charge $500 for the tech to do so--result in a reduction of wealth across the entire economy at every income level, and a loss of (primarily lower-income) jobs. This is an attack on all Americans and on all recipients of American agricultural exports.

Re:A John Deer bonfire...

[Anonymous Coward]

No need to destroy property. But those who do buy competitors' products should advise that they want it delivered by a route that leaves the new tractor parked in front of the JD dealership for a bit, while journalists (if you can find them anymore) interview the new buyer, the proud salesman, the dejected JD guys. Orange hats all around.

Re:Liability

[sonamchauhan]

Even better, remove the market for hacked firmware in the first place by backing right-to-repair laws, sponsored by your local member of legislature.

Or is that too 'big-government' for someone?

Perpetuation

[PoopJuggler]

And yet they continue to buy John Deere products, perpetuating the cycle.

Re:Perpetuation

[Elfich47]

I wouldn't be surprised if part of the purchase decision is based on where the closest repair rep is. With John Deere being that controlling to the farmers, I would not be surprised at all if they have attempted to lock in the reps and repair techs as well- "You can be a rep/tech for John Deere or someone else, but not both, we will pull your certifications off the wall and you will be left high and dry" - This is a side effect of the farming consolidation that has been going on for twenty years (or more), there are fewer different people buying tractors so it is easier to try to achieve lock in.

I think it would be in the other tractor manufacturer's interest to bring their tractors out to the farms for demos (if they don't already) and make sure they talk up the reparability of the unit. The other tractor manufacturers have to realize that a professional, well trained repair staff that gives accurate (non chiseling) repair estimates is going to go a lot further with the farmers that buy and use their products than the attempted lock-in of John Deere.

Re:Perpetuation

[usuallylost]

I was wondering about that. Why don't they buy some other brand? How proprietary is this stuff? Is it possible that people who were using John Deere before they started this are basically suffering from brand lock-in because they've got too much money sunk into a proprietary solution to change?

Re:Perpetuation

[Anonymous Coward]

And yet they continue to buy John Deere products, perpetuating the cycle.

Yes. Just like sheep that continue to buy ms windows. Locked down sw when cheaper open alternatives exist. And unlike the tractor business, the free & open software actually outperforms the expensive locked alternatives. But they can't switch - because then they'd feel stupid for not having switched before?

Re:Perpetuation

[Anonymous Coward]

I was wondering about the same thing. If there is clear demand for tractors without these technical constraints, the market should satisfy them. At the very least, shouldn't we be seeing older (simpler) tractors trading for a larger price in the second hand market? Why don't they simply buy an used old tractor?

Re:Perpetuation

[Anonymous Coward]

And they voted for Trump, too. Go figure.

Re:Perpetuation

[budgenator]

How proprietary, what most think if a tractor is 25-100 Hp , everybody and there brother sells one $10.000-50,000), what most people think of as a big tractor is 100-175 Hp range $100,000-175,000 and they numerous manufactures, what a Farmer thinks of as a big tractor is 450-642Hp and is in the neighborhood of a $1/2 million, there 2 manufactures.

Re:Perpetuation

[Anonymous Coward]

This!!

Having grown up on a farm in a rural community, I can say the number one driver of brand is not the color of the paint, but the local service offered. If Deere is looking to maintain their presence among an ever decreasing number of US farmers, what better way to do so than to guarantee their service centers/dealerships customers.

At some level, this isn't any different than the dealership for cars performing service.

Re:Perpetuation

[Virtucon]

It's about durability & quality. A lot of farm equipment doesn't last very long under most conditions. Considering how much these cost, you want the most performance possible.

Re:Liability

[Opportunist]

Actually, sane legal systems have a provision against underhanded practices like that.

Our legal system actually knows a few "non-negotiable rights" you have in a contract, no matter whether the contract tries to void them, you have them. You can for example not waive the right to enforce a contract against your contractual partner (i.e. making it a one-sided contract where only one side can hold the other side to fulfillment).

Funny enough, the provision could best be translated as "protection against immoral clauses" ("contra bonos mores" for the legal geeks here).

And our judges tend to enforce such things quite broadly if they feel you try to bullshit your business partner. Or, worse, the judge.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

You also break the EULA. First semester law school stuff here. You break a contract, there are penalties for doing so, likely ending the business relationship. It is actually amazing that JD hasn't put in a remote kill switch to brick stuff owned by rogue entities breaking the law (DMCA) and subverting essential life safety systems to save a buck. If one of these pirates causes harm, the lawyers may force anti-jailbreak measures, just like how phones have to be jailbreak/root resistant to keep rogue devices from trashing the cellular network.

Re: Liability

[Opportunist]

THe real tracker is one inside John Deere. :-)

Dude, I agree that John Deere is full of it. I just question that "it" is a tractor. Though you may use a tractor to pull a whole trailer of "it" out onto your field, your crops could really benefit from some of "it".

Re:Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Opportunist]

As if not voiding the warranty would make John Deere liable for anything. Read that contract and realize that it pretty much says "If our machine somehow fucks up and kills your firstborn, well, tough luck, you've been stupid enough to buy our shit, now live with your decision!"

Ukrainian Firmware

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, I am in complete agreement that John Deere is doing something that if not illegal is at least reprehensible. But installing cracked Ukrainian firmware? Are they idiots? I can just imagine some Ukrainian hacker going, "now is time to shut harvest of evil USA down" and pressing a button and all of these tractors stop.

RIP John Deere

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because we have a President that actually cares about America and its people, doesn't excuse lame-a** stupid business practices that drive business away...

Re:RIP John Deere

[Anonymous Coward]

He's going to be working for you. Not playing golf!

Re:Liability

[Zontar_Thing_From_Ve]

Is John Deere legally liable if an UNMODIFIED tractor malfunctions and hurts someone? Nope, that's right there in the summary of the license agreement. Why do you think THAT will change because of modified firmware?

Like most here, you don't understand how US law really works. My best friend is a lawyer, we've known each other since college, and he's taught me a lot over the years. One of the things he's taught me is that when you sign an agreement that says you sign away your rights, that doesn't necessarily mean you actually have signed away your rights. There are various ways around this kind of thing, including arguing something that amounts to saying that John Deere coerced you into signing that and you had no choice but to agree. Also, you seem to not realize that once you get to court, anything is possible. Depending on how good the lawyers are, the judge's personal involvement in the case (whether he/she steers the jury with comments or leaves them alone to do whatever they will), and the jury itself, any kind of verdict is possible.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

You may want the government and corporations to do your thinking for you and mindlessly do as you're told like an insect. Most of us, on the other hand, want to keep both sovereignty and property rights, and have no intention of adopting the mindset or property rights perspective of an ant colony. We have no interest in joining you in devolving into a bipedal drone.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Especially when it's designed not to work right on purpose.

This goes double for the preprogrammed obsolescence timers.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Because ultimately, the government and corporations, in the long term, want to control everything. Property rights are a pesky thorn in their side now that they've grown gargantuan, and they want to use technology to prevent them from ever arising again.

They intend to use computers to do it. Everything depends on computers, and if they have a lien on the software that runs the computer (and a back door), they arguably have the right to turn any piece of private property into a brick, and to force draconian terms in order to allow the software to be used. "Don't agree with our terms? It's cool, don't worry! Enjoy your $5000 paperweight!"

It's insidious and deeply disturbing, and John Deere is only one of the first signs, along with recent trends in PC software and corporate behavior regarding many types of cell phones (e.g. needing to root the device, evading forced updates, etc.).

Re:Liability

[Carewolf]

Is John Deere legally liable if an UNMODIFIED tractor malfunctions and hurts someone? Nope, that's right there in the summary of the license agreement. Why do you think THAT will change because of modified firmware?

There are a lot of things you can not sign your way out of. Most of their contract is not just invalid, but probably illegal.

Re:Tractor investors, not breakers.

[drinkypoo]

Sure you allways will find some counter examples, like some people that first by a Mercedes S class and then run into all kind of issues with it because they are too cheap to have it properly maintained.

They run into all kinds of issues because, like all luxury cars, it's designed to last about five years tops and then fall the fuck apart so that you buy another one. The last one designed to last was the W126, but even it doesn't because they also pioneered biodegradable wiring harnesses at the same time. The window wiring fails where it flexes, and lots of other problems which are basically the same exist. The W140 is legendary for wiring problems. And every Mercedes since then is built just like every other car.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Also favoritism. limited supply of technicians, who has the most money to not go bankrupt?

Re: Liability

[vtcodger]

Naw. Libertarians believe that companies that oppress users will fail in the marketplace. (Let me know when John Deere, Microsoft, and Apple oppress their way out of the marketplace). I kinda like libertarians. They are often nice people who mean well. And they are frequently quite good on civil liberty issues. But they are remarkably slow learners.

Buy Belarus (Tractor)

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.mtzequipment.com/

At least it can be harmlessly disassembled and assembled

Re:Buy Belarus (Tractor)

[PPH]

I like their description on that web page: "No computers".

Another who knows nothing about Libertarianism

[zerofoo]

Libertarians believe very strongly in property rights and that one of government's most important functions is to preserve property rights:

https://www.lp.org/platform/

The only proper role of government in the economic realm is to protect property rights, adjudicate disputes, and provide a legal framework in which voluntary trade is protected..

I don't know of any Libertarian that would consider a tractor, whole or in part, that would belong to John Deere after a farmer has voluntarily paid for it.

Re:Another who knows nothing about Libertarianism

[Koen Lefever]

Libertarians believe very strongly in property rights and that one of government's most important functions is to preserve property rights:

Same problem: just as "liberal", "libertarian" has changed its meaning in American English.

Historically, the libertarians were non-statist (non-Marxist) communists.

Re:Another who knows nothing about Libertarianism

[rahvin112]

Yes and Libertarians believe John Deere has a property right in their software and that property right is not lost by transferring a right to use it to the tractor owner.

Of you could admit you don't agree with this and that ideology has nothing to do with it.

Re:Another who knows nothing about Libertarianism

[Carewolf]

Libertarians believe very strongly in property rights and that one of government's most important functions is to preserve property rights:

Pro the imaginary property rights of imaginary property, and to use it to screw everybody else.

Re:Another who knows nothing about Libertarianism

[Anonymous Coward]

Historically, Frederic Bastiat was born first and is considered the birth of libertarianism, even if he didn't coin the term.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Bastiat

Re:Another who knows nothing about Libertarianism

[Anonymous Coward]

Libertarians who believe you can sign over essential rights are called "republicans" and libertarians who believe that your rights are not transferable or waivable are called "democrats. Both sides are closer than either wishes to admit.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

The Left/Right divide has gotten ridiculous, to the point where being a moderate makes you the enemy of just about everyone.

Re: Liability

[i_ate_god]

The real question is, why does a tractor of all things, even require firmware? It's not a complicated machine with fancy dashboards and GPS and mandated speed restrictions and whatever. It's a god damn tractor!

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

And who is liable when the tractors malfunction and harm someone? This should be illegal unless someone can prove that the hacked firmware is safe.

I think it's too bad this was downvoted, because it's not an insane commen. But, you must understand, in the USA, it's much more common for something like this to be legal. However, the person doing it could incur liability. Probably not a huge deal for a farmer modifying his or her tractor to use on his or her own land.

Re:Liability

[mjwx]

Besides, if I read paragraph 13 correctly, the owner of the tractor has to indemnify John Deere and its dealers against all and any lawsuits, even if John Deere or the dealer is at fault for the cause of the lawsuit. That goes beyond everything I've seen in software EULAs so far. Those usually demand only indemnification against lawsuits that arise out of actions by the owner.

The thing about EULA's is that you can put anything you like in there. You can demand the forfeiture of their first born if you like. What matters is what a court of law will enforce, EULA's are CYA memos, not legally enforceable contracts.

What is enforceable depends on how bad the courts are in your area.

Re: Liability

[vtcodger]

I don't know about you, but if I had "rooted" my tractor, I think the first thing that would get disabled is any way to connect the thing to the Internet (which is, BTW, not all that easy to connect to wirelessly in many rural areas).

Unless GPS satellites will helpfully relay John Deere kill signals, it's a little hard to see how the kill switch is going to work.

Re:Liability

[edtice1559]

Yes, but to do this, you have to actually go to court which is an insurmountable obstacle in many cases and fails to provide timely relief in others.

Are there alternatives to John Deere?

[Chrisq]

Are there alternatives to John Deere? Is there some lock-in with attachments, trailers, etc. (As a non-farmer I don't know)? I would have thought that the ability to repair would be a key selling point for competitors. If farmers stopped buying John Deere I expect they would review this policy

Re:Are there alternatives to John Deere?

[AwooOOoo]

There are a number of alternatives, but JD is the biggest by a good margin. Some of the alternatives are listed half way down the page on the following link; http://www.technavio.com/repor... Selling parts is a huge business (like in many industries). Dealers for these OEMs can literally have businesses worth 100's of millions in their own right. Assisting customers in finding alternate parts would take business away from their own dealers who sell the machines and fund the OEM in the first place.

Re:Are there alternatives to John Deere?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is Zetor.

http://www.zetorna.com/

From Czech Republic.

Re:Are there alternatives to John Deere?

[will_die]

Depending on the size of the tractor(exclude the really big ones) and equipment the connectors and power transfer connectors are rather universal and you can switch between tractor and equipment. So you can take a modern tractor or something from the 60s and the equipment will attach and work.
Most stuff tends to fit on the standard three point hitch, universal joint or PTO connectors.

Re:Are there alternatives to John Deere?

[Anonymous Coward]

There are alternatives, but not many made in the United States. Cruel how that works out for people trying to buy something built domestically.

Re:Are there alternatives to John Deere?

[budgenator]

Mostly Implements connect to a drawbar to be pull with and the hydraulics through standardized connectors. The show stopper is usually having enough power, Farmers usually connect 2 or 3 different impliments together to till a field in one pass for fuel and time efficiency. High end tractors will have the transmissions shifting and engine fuel management all connected and even GPS to assist with steering so the tractor doesn't pass over ground all ready worked or miss pieces.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Who is John Deer?

Re:Liability

[wardrich86]

Is this guy serious? This guy can't be serious... if you hack the firmware, you are at fault. BUT if you had a stock tractor and shit went wrong, John Deere would probably find a way to blame it on your as well.

Re:Tractor investors, not breakers.

[SomeoneFromBelgium]

Hmm. It's off topic but here goes.
Is it in Mercedes best interest to have a bad reputation? I think not.
Just for kicks I did a small search on a mercedes S class of 10 years old. The minimum price (here in Belgium) is around €15.000 (but there were also some from around €30.000).
I recently sold the Nissan Almera of my father which was also around that age and which worked perfectly - €500 was all I could get. thats at 30 times less (in the best case).
A new Nissan of the same class of the Almera (Pulsar or Juke) is around €15.000 and a new S Class is around €85 000 which is 'only' about a factor 6. Even if you pimp up your Merc to the double of the price (which you could easily do) the Merc is still keeping its value much better (relative speaking).

Re: Liability

[morethanapapercert]

I can't tell if your post is tongue in cheek and hence quite funny in a dry sort of way, or ignorant of the features common to modern farm machinery. Modern tractors do indeed have fancy dashboards, GPS, and mandated speed restrictions. Modern farm machinery is getting rather close to autonomous activities like we see in passenger vehicles for public highways. Many machines can be started at the beginning of a row and then will proceed down the row on its own, automatically turn at the end and return along the next row, guided by GPS the whole way. The idea being to more precisely control fuel consumption, pesticide applications and so on.

Tinfoil?

[Anonymous Coward]

CTs have been barking about this since Victorian days. Once an elite cabal controls the water, the food, the shelter, and the means of production, you can enslave the world without a single fetter (for those that skipped college fetters are basically shackles and chains). Those in power will always conspire (actively or passively) to consolidate power. If you can control the means of production (e.g. the tools farmers use to farm) you gain control of the food without having to seize their land. The state now owns the rain from the sky. It's almost complete, and you all applauded it the entire way. The private family farm was actively persecuted and now is nearly extinct. The AAA laws ensured independent farmers could never succeed and gave the government absolute power over the farmer. You are in dark times more then you realize.

Re: Liability

[Hognoxious]

He's either somebody you meet at a stag party, or the guy your aunt eloped with.

Re:Liability

[Zemran]

In many jurisdictions EULAs are extremely hard to enforce because the user is forced to agree before they have knowledge of what they are agreeing to, i.e. before they have even tried the software. I would assume the same with this but unfortunately the story is about the US which has an extremely draconian attitude to such things.

Re:Liability

[Lord Kano]

Whomever performed the modification, if that modification is the cause of the incident.

It's not like we're discovering new issues here.

In 1968, if you took your Buick to your neighborhood fix-it guy and he used sub-standard wheel bearings and they caused the wheel to fall off and kill someone, Mr. Fix-it would be liable.

Really, this isn't rocket science just because the story includes the word "firmware".

LK

Re: Liability

[Opportunist]

You cannot be moderate.

You're instantly lumped into one side. Say you don't agree with something Trump said and you have to be a SJW. Say that no, you don't think their position is true, get asked why you hate minorities and how long you've been a member of the KKK. Explain that you sure as hell don't agree with the alt-right (whatever that may mean now, anyway, since nobody ever really explained to me what alt-right really meant, and whether it's the opposite of ctrl-left, which doesn't do anything either, at least on my keyboard... but I ramble) and we're back at being asked whether you enjoy sucking Laci Green's femdick and how much money you dumped on Sarkeesian.

And don't you DARE to say that you don't care much about either of them. At best, the board moderator will block you for a week for starting a flame war...

Not wanting any part of that mudslinging just isn't possible anymore. Not being part of one bullshit movement automatically means you MUST be in the other, equally insane, one.

Farmer: The chores!

[Anonymous Coward]

John Deere: The stores!

Re: Liability

[Opportunist]

In other words, Ayn Rand, just not as close to Marxism/Leninism as she was...

I bet all these farmers are all Republicans

[Anonymous Coward]

And have no idea that they are voting for people who are forcing them to be criminals.

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Posting AC because I have mod points. You are completely ignoring the fact that the DMCA is the foundation upon which John Deere is able to enforce this crap. You have to overcome the hurdle of Federal law before you can get to morally insane contracts.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

You may want the government and corporations to do your thinking for you and mindlessly do as you're told like an insect. Most of us, on the other hand, want to keep both sovereignty and property rights, and have no intention of adopting the mindset or property rights perspective of an ant colony. We have no interest in joining you in devolving into a bipedal drone.

If you pay taxes (especially property taxes) like the rest of us, the only sovereignty and property rights that exist are in your mind. Stop paying either tax, and you'll soon find out how "sovereign" you really are. (Hint: you're not). You seem to be as devoid of reality as those protesting liberal snowflakes are.

Re: Liability

[0100010001010011]

If you buy property is yours you should be able to do whatever you want with it.

I buy a gallon of oil. I should have the sovereign right to pour that down a storm drain.

I buy a gallon of glyphosate. I should have the full right to overspray it such that it runs down into the municipal water features.

The EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) stipulates that a lot of what goes into modern engine firmware for emissions regulations.

Why buy John Deere

[Anonymous Coward]

Two reasons people buy John Deere Reliability and name brand. When you buy a piece of equipment that costs the same as a small house you look at known companies with high levels of reliability. The software and repair lock-in is to make certain the repairs are using "superior" John Deere parts.

This is a backwards way of thinking about it when the farmer just needs to get things done on a shoe string budget. The Ukrainian cracked software is unfortunately needed. John Deere is forcing customers away due poor corporate decisions such as this. So far they have not retaliated. And if they do farmers will sell the equipment to buy the cheaper competition. They already know sooner or later that cheap competitor reliability will become less of a concern.

Re: Liability

[0100010001010011]

Because modern tractors, like most things, have an engine running them. I would guess that this tractor has at least 3 control modules. (Give or take given how vertically integrated JD is).

One ECM for the Engine.

One TCM for the Transmission.

One more for the body cab and hydraulics.

Re: Liability

[newcastlejon]

A natural reaction might be "DIY parts void your warranty", but the farmer who installs a third-part transmission is out of warranty anyway so custom sw won't make a difference.

Not necessarily. Installing a third party transmission would only void a warranty (in Europe, anyway) if the replacement part was responsible for the fault for which you're claiming. For the car example, a car maker couldn't refuse to honour a warranty claim for a faulty engine if you used OEM brake parts.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

John Deere isn't liable now.

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

The owner of the tractor. Sorry, I have to be specific in this time and age: The person who paid good money to use a tractor that the manufacturer still thinks is theirs.

Just like the way it has always been.

The main difference being that if you use "original" firmware, rest assured that NOBODY will be liable. If anything, JD will certainly have a way to brush it off on the farmer anyway.

No you bought a copy. Not the actually tractor. Actually ... you only purchased a right to use it. It is copyrighted so you do not own it according to the DMCA. Go read the EULA?

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

EULAs are not contracts. Ever buy a house? Take out a loan for a car? Those are contracts. Notice how they have to go over the entire thing with you and you have to initial nearly every paragraph? That's because part of contract law is that all parties are familiar with the terms of the contract. If somebody can bring a good argument in court that they did not understand the contract they signed, and it can be shown that the other party was purposely deceitful, trying to ensure the first party didn't understand the contract, this can be enough to void the contract in court. It's not a sure thing, but it has happened. That's why real contracts, that they really don't want to get voided in court usually have a third party go over the contract with you and you have to initial every paragraph. EULAs don't even have a signature stating you read the thing.

Re:Liability

[0100010001010011]

Is John Deere legally liable if an UNMODIFIED tractor malfunctions and hurts someone?

It absolutely is. Look at "diesel gate" with VW. If the JD tractors have firmware that cheats emissions tests and pollutes like crazy in the field the EPA would come down hard on them. License agreement or no license agreement.

Re:Liability

[Billly Gates]

Yes, but to do this, you have to actually go to court which is an insurmountable obstacle in many cases and fails to provide timely relief in others.

Yep the plaintiff will go to a judge they choose to have free trips to the carribean and golf games you know ... in the name of education in East Texas.

Good luck with that. That is how patent trolls win. THey bought out a town in east Texas and only their judges they are friends with when you file a lawsuit to defend yourself.

Re: Liability

[ganjadude]

did you eat paint chips as a child?

Re:Liability

[houghi]

So statisticaly speaking, who will have the better lawers? And if the outcome can go both ways, will the individual risk his livelyhood on that bet?
And then just at the moment BigCorp starts to loose, they settle out of court.

Your best friend is a lawer and he will get out on top either way.

To me, out of court settlements should not mean that the case should be dropped.

Re:Liability

[houghi]

Not sure if it is the case in the US, but where I live, I can not sign away my rights to file a lawsuit if I wanted to and my life depended on it.
"Be he SAID he wouldn't sue." would be laughed at so hard in court and would make you guilty almost by default.

Re: Liability

[bill_mcgonigle]

Libertarians believe that companies that oppress users will fail in the marketplace.

Can you show me a libertarian who believes that corporations should be able to show up with guns to enforce "intellectual property" like governments do?

Hint: libertarians believe in none of: corporations, intellectual property, or initiation of force. Nice strawman though.

I bet farmers hated hackers before this....

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a lesson to be learned here. How many farmers who could care less about computers and technology showed up to vote for politicians offered hard stances of piracy?

How many farmers mocked the city boys and their computers who sat behind desks and didn't "roll up their sleeves" and get dirty?

Funny how those very farmers are now looking at a huge battle that they can't possibly win without *OUR* help.

I'm half tempted to scrape the Tractor forums and search for the hypocrites and out them. Magically those "criminals" are suddenly not such bad people after all are they? I personally can't wait until something like this impacts a religious organization.....

Great example of true capitalism

[Anonymous Coward]

One, that a need develops, and is filled by the black market, as there is no authorized distribution at a competitive price point.
Two, that a company with the means and resources to do so, will pursue whatever tactics are necessary to ensure their success.

Beautiful.

Re: Liability

[guruevi]

Contract law for businesses is a different beast than for individuals. Fewer consumer protections apply, you're expected to know a lot more about your industry and you're also considered to be able to hire a lawyer before entering into a contract.

They're Modding to Increase HP

[twmcneil]

Usually, these guys are modding the firmware to increase horsepower. Sure, I suppose in a few cases it comes down to mechanical breakdown situations, but mostly these guys are trying to squeeze out a few more horses. Last fall, my brother's JD combine started spitting up pieces of main bearings, blew the turbo. Then the rest of the engine went. $25,000.00 for a new engine and a week of down time. Turns out he had chipped the engine and the mechanic said that he had replaced 5 engines in the past weeks for similar failures - all of them chipped. I asked my brother "Why on earth would you chip such an expensive piece of equipment?" He replied that he wanted the extra 10 horses.

Having said that, there is no way that JD should be able to control the owner of the equipment in the fashion that they do. If the farmers want to mod, they should be able to. Whether it's a good idea or not. It should be the owner's decision.

Re:They're Modding to Increase HP

[Bert64]

And so what? A mod invalidates the warranty so they get to profit from selling that replacement engine...

Re: Liability

[Type44Q]

Illegal?! LOLOL; can anyone spot the scumbag John Deere shill?

WTF do tractors need software for

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously. Does it track how far the tractor has gone - FitTractor? This sounds like another example of software trying to solve a problem nobody has asked to be solved. It's a tractor. Put gas in it and get to work.

Re:WTF do tractors need software for

[AwooOOoo]

Precision farming helps the farmer reduce inputs and get more out of the ground and precision farming is built on software. A good example is a GPS based guidance system which automatically steers your tractor up and down the rows saving you in the order of 10% of costs on fuel and seed and labor just from driving less because the auto-steering reduces underlap and overlap in rows. There are many more software features for things like engine management (again to save the farmer money on diesel) and 100's of other things.

Modern tractors, combines and sprayers can be quite sophisticated and may have between 10-50 electronic controllers and hundreds of sensors on them to manage all of these different control and process systems. I would argue that they are more complex than modern automobiles as farmers expect that they can plug in electronically managed implements (from a different manufacturer) into their machine and to be able to control and operate it from the in-built user interface.

Sure you can buy a 30 year old tractor without the software, but your operation will be far less efficient and it will cost you more and take you longer. There are projections of the global population in 2050 for instance and the world will need to feed a lot more people and there isn't a similar proportion of arable land becoming available so farming needs to become more and more efficient. Can we optimize seed placement, even recording the position of each exact seed so that we can reduce spraying costs by only spraying the exact plant and not the entire swath of land? Software is helping with some of these things.

Re:Liability

[vtcodger]

"One of the things he's taught me is that when you sign an agreement that says you sign away your rights, that doesn't necessarily mean you actually have signed away your rights."

I think you're likely correct. **BUT** There is no way to know if the John Deere contract is enforceable and to what extent it is enforceable other than to ask a judge or to wait until someone else does so. And no matter what the court decides, the loser will appeal. And the appellate court decision will be appealed of course.Many years (And following a significant transfer of assets from noble citizen farmers and John Deere corporate scum to legal practicioners) the matter will be decided. If John Deere loses, they will most likely come up with a new and somewhat less obnoxious contract that still says you can't modify their software.

I am not a lawyer. Just my view from a healthy distance.

Welcome to Dystopia folks. Tour buses leave on the hour. We are not liable if the denizens here harm you, and you are liable for any damages you inflict on them. Just read and sign this 254 page contract. If you are having trouble reading the 3 point type, you can purchase reading glasses at the ticket counter.

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Then JD should have the owner sign an agreement that says JD not responsible for repairs/accidents due to non-JD service.
Software shouldn't be an excuse to trap you into a contract.
Maybe there needs to be a law.
Obviously, software shouldn't be pirated in any way, but the owner of a device should be able to repair anything else about the device without having to pay for the manufacturer to do the work.
But, then, there's Microsoft, Apple, etc. with well paid lawyers who have nothing else to do all day but sue the consumer. Great business model.

Re:Liability

[Highdude702]

But see if i get an add in card that isnt made by asus, and i can get it to work, without their help just fine. i dont have to pay asus to come out and give me permission to use it on a piece of hardware i bought, you see where your comment becomes the backwards shit seen here every day. complain one day that you cant modify your own stuff. the next day you say its not safe for other people to modify their stuff.

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

but it is ammunition to draw out a case until you run out of money, or discourage you from starting a case in the first place

Re: Liability

[Highdude702]

I knew there was a reason i liked you. But the fact is theres no point talking to morons like that. they probably try to use their cell phone as a computer and figure theres no way you can alter the magic pixies in it.

Re:Tractor investors, not breakers.

[drinkypoo]

Is it in Mercedes best interest to have a bad reputation? I think not.

It doesn't give them a bad reputation because all luxury autos are like this. That's why they all depreciate like they're in free-fall as soon as the warranty expires.

Even if you pimp up your Merc to the double of the price (which you could easily do) the Merc is still keeping its value much better (relative speaking).

Guess what? A 2007 S550 is the worst piece of shit you will ever see. You may leave your apology in your reply.

Re: Liability

[Type44Q]

Did your friend explain how, in a civil trial, none of that even matters if the other party (presumably the plaintiff) has a larger war chest than you? Witness Creative Labs vs Aureal...

Re: Liability

[Highdude702]

youre one of those "they told me i have to do it this way so it must be the only way." I on the other hand value my money. if i can purchase an item, i own it and can therefor do whatever i damn well please to it including turning it into a much better device or a steaming sack of shit. and the manufacturer of that item can do fuck all about it. and if they try i am one of the few willing to stand my ground. they can try their best. i modify almost everything i buy. its fun and most of the time i can make whatever it is better for my liking.

Automatic Jack was a Tractor Hacker

[Anonymous Coward]

"The back 40 finds its own uses for things"
  -- William Gibson (sorta)

They ask for this

[AceManSpaceMan]

So most of the people who are affected by this are farmers, which are generally rural people, who generally are right-wing/libertarian/tea party/republican etc? The same people who want the government out of everything and think the free market is the best solution? Deal with it. When you vilify people for wanting sensible regulation and laws that actually keep the market competitive, this is the crap you get. I have absolutely no pity, same for so many family farms being bought up by corporations. These problems are their own making. Bow down to your corporate lords peasants or just sell the family farm and go work in a cube.

Re:They ask for this

[iamacat]

Eh... who do you think is enforcing these software licenses in the first place?

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Somalia is libertarian. Limited government, those with wealth can afford private armies, and wealth dictates who wins nearly all the time. This is why there are no functional intentionally defined libertarian governments on earth.

A replacement firmware of tractors in Ukranian

[Ed Avis]

Perhaps they are hoping that in their dotage they will marry a big-breasted Ukranian woman? http://marinalewycka.com/tract...

Cue Media: Russian Hacking

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm waiting for the headlines: "Russians hacking US food supply after Trump Takes Office."

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Aren't there still competitors to John Deere that the farmers can patronize and send a financial message to JD?

Re: Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Type44Q]

...can do for a box of sodas.

In John Deere territory, it'd be a case of soda/i> (or, if you're in parts of the South or Midwest, a "case of pop")... but nevertheless, toenail clippings, seashells and ski-ball tickets are far likelier forms of currency... Seriously, a "box of sodas?!" :)

John Deere Isn't The Only Manufacturer of Tractors

[sycodon]

Best thing you could do is sell it, then buy a different brand.

Most tools used in farming can be attached to any tractor. if you have something that requires a J.D. tractor, well, you bought into their ecosystem, your problem.

For that matter, they haven't been doing this kind of shit for all that long. Buy an older one and refurbish it.

Not a Farmer issue

[Anonymous Coward]

Farmers are smart and farmers are stupid and farmers are trapped. There are a LOT of issues before farmers but this is hardly a significant one.

I farm a bit and don't have JD tractors but I don't find much fault with this policy. Farming is a strategic security issue for the nation. It is getting more and more technical all the time. Farmers are the surfs of the Agro industry and sign and abide by horrible agreements from their banks and seed companies. This JD issue is a minor concern made SO much worse by using SW from an area of the world heavily invested in subverting the strength of the nation through cyber means. What is really in this bootleg SW. Is it possible that a bit of code is put in place to allow a ransom situation or much worse happen in the future. It is obvious that SW is being weaponized in this area of the world. Don't be stupid.

If you buy JD then stick with them when it comes to SW or any valid manufacturer. To corrupt the code in an expensive tractor is a VERY stupid idea. I don't blame JD a bit for taking a hard line on this. This is not about buying a set of 3rd party brake pads, it is about loading a VERY risky piece of SW onto your tractor that is likely to put at risk your bank loan on the tractor and put at risk the value of the equipment and the reliability of the equipment going forward.

Any real farmer has backup equipment just like any credible business. This is a false issue.

Re:Not a Farmer issue

[JohnFen]

The fact that some people make stupid modifications to their equipment is not an argument in favor of JD's stance. It would only be an argument in favor of voiding the warranty.

If I buy a piece of equipment, I have every right to abuse or destroy it in any manner I desire. The OEM should have no ability to stop me.

Re:Not a Farmer issue

[Anonymous Coward]

This press release bought to you by John Deere Inc.

Re:Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Feyshtey]

I'm not supporting this asinine notion that farmers cannot fix their own equipment. I'm wholly against it. I was simply responding to someone suggesting that John Deere's motivation is protecting themselves from people breaking JD equipment and then forcing JD to fix it for free. What JD is doing is trying to monopolize maintenance on all their equipment, and do it when they get around to it and at inflated costs.

Re: Liability

[Opportunist]

I'm not really talking to him, just pointing out the stupidity for the entertainment of others.

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

And who is liable when the tractors malfunction and harm someone?

The farmer, duh.

Why is it a "duh"? Because, from TFS...

A license agreement John Deere required farmers to sign in October forbids nearly all repair and modification to farming equipment, and prevents farmers from suing for "crop loss, lost profits, loss of goodwill, loss of use of equipment [...] arising from the performance or non-performance of any aspect of the software."

I'd say that harming/killing someone falls under losing goodwill, so clearly it is the farmer's fault even if they used officially sanctioned John Deere software.

Not saying I agree, I am simply pointing out what John Deere's lawyers would be pointing out.

Re:Liability

[kilodelta]

Well - we've all had the ability to re-chip our car computers so I don't see this being any different.

Re: Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Opportunist]

Where I'm from, you'd hand him a crate of beer, but you Americans and your fear of anyone under the age of like 80 drinking alcohol...

Like your beer qualifies as alcohol! Or as beer, for that matter!

This crys for open software

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's the link to their EULA.
It appears to control the software that runs on their products.
If you don't use their s/w is there anything in there that limits what you can do?

https://www.deere.com/privacy_and_data/docs/agreement_pdfs/english/2016-10-28-Embedded-Software-EULA.pdf
https://www.deere.com/privacy_and_data/agreements/agreements.page

I think their offer in the EULA includes no guarantee that the s/w will work after a year.
A tractor should last for generations.

So what would it take to make replacement software for for their stuff?
Maybe a law that requires them to publish the interfaces to their s/w.
Maybe an out of your control outside group doing reverse engineering.
Given the crazy terms of their offer, it seems reasonable for a customer to have another option.

An open source project would be ideal.
Would it be possible to wipe all the s/w from their tractor and then figure out how to make it run without it.
Hopefully without looking into how their s/w works.

Re: Liability

[Highdude702]

well if i could possibly bind alt-right to ctrl-alt-f4 than i wouldnt honestly care what it meant because i wouldnt have to watch morons shoot rockets between their glass cathedral's :O but you seem to be onto something here. politics has ruined our country. you can see it tearing at the seams more and more every day like the obese americans most here are.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe the /. crowd could actually y'know go look:

http://www.deere.com/en_US/docs/html/brochures/publication.html?id=f083d8bc#17

Re:Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Anonymous Coward]

They just charge way less than the dealership sending their service truck 45mi out to the farm.
And they grew-up with and still live and work within the local community of farmers. Generally they do whatever hack is necessary to finish the harvest and then the machine can be trucked down to the dealer in the off-season to be properly repaired for the next harvest.
(And "machine" is often more than just a simple tractor but often a $450,000 combine harvester that weighs over 12 tons and is too wide when assembled to fit on the road)

Contract Law

[Anonymous Coward]

These contract terms appear to be unconscionable (legal term-where a contract only benefits one party at the expense of another), and as such should be thrown out.

If I were a shareholder of John Deere, I would be pitching the world's largest shit fit right now. They are absolutely destroying their reputation and exposing themselves to class action lawsuits when the idiotic "you can't sue us nah nah nah nah boo boo" terms get thrown out. If I were a farmer, I would dispose of "my" John Deere tractor as soon as possible, even if it meant settling for a lower quality foreign made tractor. Simply unacceptable.

Wouldn't be too surprised to see someone go full "Killdozer: Redux" on them if they ruined their business with this crap.

When it is a crime to harvest your own seed...

[Anonymous Coward]

When it is a crime to harvest your own seed, you have bigger problems than software licensing on your space shuttle.. I mean farm tractor.

Even if I *don't* buy my seed from Monsanto, there is no way I can prevent the GMO-ridden farm upwind from me from contaminating my crop with Monsanto's patented genetics. That means I cannot harvest my seed for the next year. If I do, I will be sued, and the court will send an agricultural geneticist to test my crops, and they will find DNA polluted from the Monsanto farm, and I'll be on the hook for millions in penalties for something I have zero control over.

There is no element of intent to patent infringement.

Re: Liability

[Opportunist]

The US (and not just them, that cancer is spreading) has to relearn that politics is not a matter of black and white (and no, I don't mean it in any racial sense, dammit!). Politics is a lot of shades of grey and you can actually think that one idea from politician A is good while you disagree with his position on topic B and think that someone from a different political spectrum is right. That is actually possible!

Also, disagreeing with A doesn't mean that you agree with B. I think Hillary is a despicable bitch who is by no means in touch with anything that matters to the average Joe out there, but that doesn't mean that I think that Trump has all the answers. Or Sanders for that matter. I do think that skin color, heritage, upbringing or gender should not matter when it comes to your chance to accomplish anything, but that does neither mean that I think we should wallow in collective white guilt and bend over backwards to hand out freebies to "underprivileged" people who think they're entitled to handouts because they are $minority, nor does it mean that I think that everything is absolutely peachy and we have total equality already anyway just 'cause our law books say we should.

I also think that I have no right to say that you have to be the gender your dangly (or not so dangly) bits convey, but I refuse to be yelled at for "assuming a gender". I do know a few transgender people, and I know what bullshit they have to go through, but EVERY SINGLE ONE of them is going out of their way to make absolutely CERTAIN you KNOW what gender they identify as. They are essentially the living stereotype of their gender, just to make sure that people, at least those that do care, address them correctly. Funny enough, none of them ever got into a hissy fit over being "mis-gendered", the most you'd get is a "please, I'd prefer he/I'd prefer she". And guess what, it works.

But I digress.

What we see in politics, and people, is what I'd identify as overcompensation. You don't want people to think you could maybe take position A, so you go WAY overboard and take position B to grotesque lengths and, and this is more the problem, accept that people do that. And that's in my opinion the problem.

Nothing screws farmers like a Deere.

[Anonymous Coward]

John Deere is trying to extend this license to their Riding Mowers.

If you buy anything from Deere, you are in for big problems.

Would you really trust this company??

Re: Liability

[Feyshtey]

Nice to see that Rachel Maddow has at least one viewer remaining.

Libertarians just want to be left the fuck alone. They believe that if you are harmed you have every right to seek redress in the courts, but that government doesnt have the right to pass laws that mean to make it impossible to ever be guilty of causing harm. You know, that notion that you're innocent until proven guilty?

Re:Tractor investors, not breakers.

[Anonymous Coward]

That's Jalopnik, a site that has decided that every single part of any German car will fail every five minutes and will cost $1 million to replace and they frame most of their articles to fit that narrative, despite the fact that their conclusions are mostly based on a small number of American-market models with a very shady service history and lots of aftermarket parts, bought by the umpteenth owner at a price that seems to good to be true and that, in the real world, German cars tend to be the most reliable (see e.g. ADAC's breakdown statistics).

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy reading Jalopnik, but you have to take some things with a lot of salt. It's directed at an American audience and they have a lot of strange prejudices and many in-crowd jokes.

Re:Liability

[laurencetux]

Sure but before that lets have John Deere

1 PUBLISH (in an accessible forum) a document that proves the OEM firmware is safe and does not have any backdoors that can be used to disable the tractor remotely

2 provide at no extra charge insurance against the tractor being disabled for any reason causing a crop failure/ or other loss of profit

what John Deere is doing should cause RICO charges

Hacking the Food Supply

[DickBreath]

Imagine if a foreign power could hack all the Deere equipment right at harvest time. However, that would be as unlikely as hacking a national election.

Re:Hacking the Food Supply

[Anonymous Coward]

Imagine if a foreign power could hack all the Deere equipment right at harvest time.

Funny you mention that. Chris Roberts did a talk at Thotcon a while back about remotely hacking Tractors & other farm equipment en-masse.

http://thotcon.org/archive/0x2presos/04-Thotcon2011-Chicago-Final-email.pdf

Re: Liability

[aaarrrgggh]

Yes, but you are going from one overlord to another with cracked third party software. At least you can try to sue John Deere.

No idea what the best solution is here; publicizing JD's dirty laundry helps a little, but it is quickly forgotten. I am curious why they don't just do TaaS (Tractor as a Service).

Re: Liability

[BlueStrat]

The EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) stipulates that a lot of what goes into modern engine firmware for emissions regulations.

Looks like the EPA isn't going to have the money to enforce much of anything according to the proposed federal budget.

This is a good thing. Don't get me wrong, I like clean air, water, etc, and at one time in the past, the EPA was at least passably effective and focused on actually protecting the environment in a reasonable and pragmatic manner. The EPA has since grown into an out-of-control federal bureaucratic monster. The EPA has jumped the shark and does far more harm to society than good. Time to start over.

Strat

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Or the politicians simply make 'right to repair' a law as is being considered in a few states, but fought against by corporate interests. Weren't tractors the impetus for the attempted right to repair legislation in Nebraska? Keep an eye on the eventual results to find out who the politicians actually represent.

Presumption of innocence

[mi]

This should be illegal unless someone can prove that the hacked firmware is safe.

You got the wrong country. It shall be legal, until someone can prove it is unsafe. And not just unsafe, but substantially unsafer than the original.

And even then free citizens of a free country should be free to endanger themselves however they wish — be it with alcohol, firearms, drugs, or "unapproved" farm equipment.

All that said, I suspect, John Deere are privately happy with the situation — they get to sell more tractors this way. Thanks to this "Ukrainian firmware", you can buy them with or without the warranty — a choice, no doubt, made illegal (or very costly) by earlier regulatory and/or legal rulings. Such as this one.

Re: Presumption of innocence

[Type44Q]

Well-fucking-said.

Re: Presumption of innocence

[mi]

Thank you for the compliment, however foul-mouthed, but... With that freedom to endanger oneself, comes the responsibility to pay for one's own healthcare and/or disability. Pay for it, or beg other people's charity — with Pauper's Oath, etc. — but not vote to force others to pay for one's follies.

I sure hope, you are just as prepared to agree with this...

Re:Liability

[Grishnakh]

Almost no one is complaining about not being able to hack computer hardware; you still can really (it's much harder than before), but no one wants to because there's no need for it.

What they're complaining about is the software and firmware. That's the whole point of the RPi you pointed out: no one cares about modifying the base PCB, but they're having all kinds of fun messing with the open-source software, and also adding on hardware using the existing interface ports.

Re: Liability

[__aaclcg7560]

[...] being a moderate makes you the enemy of just about everyone.

That would explain why some asshats are accusing me of threatening to shoot them.

https://www.kickingthebitbucket.com/2017/03/21/have-i-threatened-to-shoot-you-today/

How would they do that?

[aglider]

I wonder how can John Deere remotely lock a tractor.
I see only two options:
1. They install a mobile modem (with sim) into every tractor or
2. They require the tractor to go online (via WiFi) every day or so.
In any case I see easy ways to circumvent option no.2. But with option no.1 they'd be assuming universal mobile coverage across all USA, which seems not to be the case...

Re:How would they do that?

[__aaclcg7560]

My uncle in Idaho has a $250K tractor with satellite TV. It may also have satellite Internet.

Re:How would they do that?

[JohnFen]

1. They install a mobile modem (with sim) into every tractor

This, I expect. It's what auto manufacturers are doing.

Re:How would they do that?

[aglider]

1. They install a mobile modem (with sim) into every tractor

This, I expect. It's what auto manufacturers are doing.

But tractors are not meant to run where cars do, like cities, villages, crowded highways...
I mean, could you expect tractors to stay in an area with stable mobile coverage? Or aren't they meant to run on vast rural emptinesses where you haven't (almost) any?
In any case, a Faraday cage would help the owners in protecting their properties.
Again, a tech savvy owner has plenty of means to do it.

Re:How would they do that?

[Anonymous Coward]

They have number one. It's called JDlink.

Re:How would they do that?

[JohnFen]

The easier solution is to do what people do with cars: disconnect the antenna.

When lobbying corrupts the system..

[Anonymous Coward]

This is what happens when our government representatives are allowed to be bribed. And let's be clear, farming is a VITAL industry. When a company assumes not only a monopoly on the product but on services to maintain/repair that product it's not a sale, it's a lease with an expensive initial processing charge. The dangers to the food supply as well as business are obvious and monopolies will almost invariably be abused although this is an extreme case, it's why we are supposed to have antitrust laws. We have something somewhat similar happening with chicken farming as well with retaliation of the enslaved farmers complain. If our government doesn't stop working for the corporations and start doing it's actual job, working for the PEOPLE they represent, we will all pay in reduced food production leading to higher prices and possibly more food imports. Even when we have laws the yare not being enforced here. Reason? Lobbying. Farming is not a nice profession to be in unless you are a corporation like Deere or Perdue Farms.We should be very concerned here.

Re: Liability

[aglider]

You are always liable. And when you are not, their lawyers will demonstrate otherwise in front of a judge.

Re: Liability

[__aaclcg7560]

The real question is, why does a tractor of all things, even require firmware? It's not a complicated machine with fancy dashboards and GPS and mandated speed restrictions and whatever. It's a god damn tractor!

My uncle in Idaho has a $250K tractor with navigational computer, HVAC, satellite TV, a comfortable seat and floodlights for night time work. The thing practically drives itself. All he does is sit inside it for 18 hours per day from Spring to Fall, and then take three months off for winter to go fishing down south. He makes more money than all the farmers he works for during the growing season.

Re:Liability

[Lumpy]

same person that when the brakes you fixed fail and you mow down schoolchildren.

Put your big boy underwear on and take responsibility when you drive a large piece of machinery.

Re: Liability

[Enigma2175]

The Libertarian Party in the United States certainly supports corporations. Quoting from their platform:

2.7 Marketplace Freedom

Libertarians support free markets. We defend the right of individuals to form corporations, cooperatives and other types of entities based on voluntary association.

FSF

[SpaghettiPattern]

The FSF should open farming offices in California, Iowa and Texas. (Top 3 agricultural producing States)

Never thought Merritt and Wyatt would push the FSF envelope.

Re:Tractor investors, not breakers.

[drinkypoo]

That's Jalopnik, a site that has decided that every single part of any German car will fail every five minutes and will cost $1 million to replace

They are essentially correct. Check out for example the typical longevity of and replacement cost for the vaunted S-Class air suspension. The parts are still too new to chance getting from third parties, so you have to go to the dealer. If you don't have a very good relationship with them, you're into thousands per corner.

despite the fact that their conclusions are mostly based on a small number of American-market models with a very shady service history and lots of aftermarket parts

You should be able to buy aftermarket parts. If the design requires insanely fancy-pants parts, it's not a good one. For example, the chain tensioners in the 40V 4.2 liter Audi V8. The 32V engine doesn't have VVT, so it doesn't have them, and it's considerably more durable as a result. Both have the same stupid Flennor/Gates timing belt with a 60k lifespan. California mandates that timing belts have a 90k lifespan, Audi said "sure whatever" and rated it for 90k. It's the same belt. Chains or gears forever. But that's apparently too noisy for luxury. I'd be better off with a LS motor, which has none of these considerations and yet is just as efficient.

in the real world, German cars tend to be the most reliable

They tend to be the most expensive. That is, they require a lot of dollars invested to make them reliable. I've got a full service history on a 1997 A8 Quattro to show how and why that is the case. In spite of that I've been going through an epic to transfer its transmission into a 1998 that I got as a parts car. It's got half the miles on it, and it's in nicer condition in general inside and out. If I weren't capable of doing this stuff myself, it would make more sense to just buy something else, because it would cost too much to have it done even by an independent mechanic to justify given the low, low value of the vehicle. And its value is in turn low not just because of its age, but because of the expense in servicing it.

The average person would love to be driving something like this around now that it's been handed down from someone who could afford to absorb the expense of its initial depreciation, but they can't afford the maintenance to keep it from disintegrating. It's two hundred bucks in crankcase vent breather hoses I worked around with silicone hose and a right angle fitting, and thirty bucks for a little y-shaped vacuum hose I went ahead and bought, and the headrests don't go up and down because the drive flex cable jacket stretched over time due to heat cycling and has to be shortened and the rear sun shade has come unglued and is catching on the rear parcel shelf and the arm rests tend to crack and Audi would like a thousand dollars for one but you can often pick up a pair of them from the facelift model for a couple hundred and the list goes ever on and on.

I've been talking about Audi for a long while, but I also own a 1982 Mercedes-Benz 300SD (W126) and guess what? Mercedes is doing its level best to kill off the platform. You can get basically all the parts for cars which are older than the W126 from the Mercedes Classics parts program, but there are a number of parts for the W126 which you can no longer get new from anyone for any price. The primary example which is going to kill off these cars is the locks. Mercedes does not sell ignition locks at all any more, and an otherwise fully matched lock set will set you back painfully. No one is re-keying these locks or making fresh keys, either, but that doesn't really matter because while it had at the time the strongest column lock ever devised for a production auto, the lock itself is beyond flimsy. It also only took me about an hour and a half to figure out how to remove a completely failed and jammed lock and column locking mechanism from my car and then do it start to finis

Auto manufacturers do the similar

[HockeyPuck]

Current BMW models require the battery to be registered with the car before it will work. You can't just go down to your local auto parts store and get a new battery and swap out the old one in your garage. This holds true even if you get your battery from the BMW dealer.

I'm waiting for the day when BMW requires only bmw approved/certified sockets to be used.

Re:Auto manufacturers do the similar

[HornWumpus]

BMW has been using POS 'secret decoder ring' sockets/bolts for decades. These days you can get them from other than parts trucks, but that's a recent development.

Many other euro manufactures are also starting to use them.

Re:Auto manufacturers do the similar

[HornWumpus]

Tool trucks...don't know where 'parts' came from. Duh.

Re: Liability

[SlaveToTheGrind]

Libertarians believe that companies that oppress users will fail in the marketplace.

A few thoughts:

1. They generally do fail -- just not in the time frame you would prefer.
2. I think you may have really meant "companies that oppress users to a far greater degree than they benefit them." I can quite comfortably predict that for any company of any size you might care to name there's a disproportionately vocal minority that has come up with something to whine about.
3. The specific situation we're talking about here is not simply a company oppressing users in a vacuum, but doing so using the cudgels of overbearing legislation (DMCA) and court precedent (EULAs). That's about as anti-libertarian as you can get.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhh, no. Socialist Libertarianism is a thing. Americans have defined Libertarianism as radical anarchist capitalism. There is no necessity for libertarianism to be tied to capitalism.

There's just no actual left in the US, the US version of the left is just pro-capitalist vs ultra-capitalist on the right.

Re:Liability

[JohnFen]

Obviously, if someone makes a modification to equipment that results in harm, the person who made the modification is liable. There's no need for a law against making modifications to address this.

what about renting = the landlord pays for service

[Joe_Dragon]

what about renting = the landlord pays for service and upkeep?

Will they be so willing to say you are just renting the software?

Opportunity!

[jcr]

When a major vendor fucks up and pisses off their customers, that's a chance for smarter competitors to eat their lunch. There must be at least a dozen companies, from Toyota to Caterpillar, who could step in here and serve this market.

-jcr

well

[TRRosen]

Actually very few farmers own their own tractors any. At least the high end models. There almost all leased. They are simply to expensive to purchase outright.

Nothing euns up your bill like a Deere

[Anonymous Coward]

I have recently been doing research on a small sub compact tractor and Deere quickly was dropped from my list of candidates for this reason and for the DPF Diesel Particulate Filter issues. Deere is also very proprietary with everything they do that logo will hold you hostage.
I am seriously looking at Mahindra, simpler more tried and true older school design. But Mahindra still has some of the electronics issues. But NO DPF on the Mahindra and it is the only tractor in the U.S. that does not have a DPF or require diesel juice etc for the Mahindra MCRD engine to make tier IV compliance.
Most of the smaller Deeres are repackaged Yanmar tractors anyway.
I have a friend in southern Illinois who's family has been farming for generations his father is in his late 80's and still going strong. They refuse to buy anything with a Deere logo on it. They buy all their equipment at auction and rebuild it over the winter months if they cant strip it rebuild it and use what ever parts they want hey wont buy it. Some of the equipment they are using is ancient and still going strong. Cast iron lasts just maintain it, oil it and it will go on and on almost for ever. Deere along with apple and some others have spent millions to fight right to repair legislation.

Re:Liability

[JohnFen]

when you sign an agreement that says you sign away your rights, that doesn't necessarily mean you actually have signed away your rights.

Technically true, but unless you have a large pile of cash sitting around in order to make your case in court, then this doesn't mean a thing.

Re: Liability

[Enigma2175]

It's the same in the US, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act says that companies cannot invalidate your warranty for using 3rd party parts.

Re:Liability

[JohnFen]

The VW case isn't really relevant -- that was VW engaging in fraud. The JD issue is not about fraud (in the legal sense).

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Not necessarily. The US EPA went after VW very aggressively, but they mostly ignored decades of emissions cheating at GM, Ford and Chrysler. In one of the very few cases in which they actually filed a complaint against a US manufacturer, they settled for $45 million, even though the number of cars was similar to when they managed to rob VW of many billions. Very recently, Harley-Davidson paid only $15 million for selling replacement parts that helped customers defeat emissions laws. I am very interested in how Fiat Chrysler's emissions cheating will be handled. The US EPA has issued a notice of violation for some of the suspect engines, but there has been nothing like the holy war against VW yet.

There is a huge difference between how the US EPA treats American companies and how it treats foreign companies. John Deere may not have much to fear.

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, in the US, what JD is doing is completely legal and enforceable. Just like those software licenses. In effect, what they're doing is leasing you the equipment and requiring that only they can maintain/repair it. IIRC from previous discussions (this is not really new), as a farmer, you can't even change the oil yourself. You assume all liability for loss due to breakdown etc.

Since this actually is nothing new (JD has been doing it for some years), the real question is whether anybody else is out there with more reasonable terms? Is there a reason why farmers must by JD tractors and other equipment? One would presume that somebody with more reasonable terms would be able to compete for the business. If they're not, maybe we have a monopoly situation on our hands that should be addressed as such, not just as a OMG horrible license terms one.

Re: Liability

[rahvin112]

You arguing to the wind. You're either with their party or your not. Political tribalism is everything that's wrong with this country, and it's precisely why we need to break the 2 party system in this country.

Re: Liability

[budgenator]

The 9RX will be available in four models from 470 to 620 hp. These models are powered by the John Deere PowerTech PSS 13.5-liter engine and the Cummins QSX15 engine. ... The tractors weigh in at 60,000 pounds and come ballasted and ready to work. The smallest 9RX - the 9470RX - starts at $497,645 and the largest four-track - the 9620RX - comes in at $574,786. John Deere 9RX

Every aspect of the engine and transmission is computer controlled in high end tractors. The biggest reason this is an issue is because farmers are often working with windows of opportunity of days, a few hours can be the difference between getting a crop in the ground before it rains or having to wait for a couple weeks. These guys are spending a half a million dollars for a machine that might only get a 100 hours on the clock each year, waiting for an authorized tech for an hour cost $5,000.00 in lost usage.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

You win the comment award for the day. *coffee snort*

and this is the shit the rest of us

[Anonymous Coward]

have to put up with some why should farmers be a special case , it should be all or none.

Re: Liability

[Bob the Super Hamste]

Anyone that tells you that Somalia is an example of Libertarianism is selling you a lie, and you're an idiot if you buy it.

I would say that instead the person saying that is a very devoted listener of Thom Hartman or is politically aligned with him. Other key giveaways is the use of the term "bankster", mentions of the "Bush crime family", or spending far too much time on concept of "money is not speech".

Well I guess I have stirred that pot well, lets what comes up now.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

I think in the US liberal means you think at least some abortions should be legal and conservative means you think all abortions should be illegal. The rest is just rationalization.

Re:Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, Jon Asshole. If I can fix my iPad, then I can surely fix my tractor.

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

My 2013-era Lenovo T430 laptop limits the mini-PCIe WiFi cards that it accepts to a short white-list of allowed models. I would never have bought this machine if I had fully appreciated that restriction at the time. I would gladly modify the hardware and software of this laptop to remove that restriction, but considering the time and difficulty, it is just much easier to just never buy a Lenovo product again.

Re:John Deere Isn't The Only Manufacturer of Tract

[Vlad_the_Inhaler]

I'd imagine no-one would want to buy a used tractor with these restrictions - hell, reselling one may well be against the licensing agreement.
A search engine indicates that New Holland seem to have a similar market share to John Deere, and that there are several other smaller manufacturers. Why would anyone buy John Deere under these circumstances?

Re: Liability

[Bob the Super Hamste]

There are basically autonomous tractors now and John Deere makes some that use differential GPS for navigation. As far as the rest of the tractor goes you are correct in that the cabs are starting to resemble aircraft cockpits with all sorts of monitoring and controls. It isn't like we are talking about the old John Deere Model D any more when it comes to tractors. You also left out the modern computer control of the engine and transmission that is found in every modern passenger vehicle that greatly improves the efficiency of a tractor as well.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Sigh, another useless website that doesn't render without any JS. Obviously not worth looking at.

Re: Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[operagost]

The 1980s called, they want your American beer meme back.

Re: Liability

[Bob the Super Hamste]

Unless GPS satellites will helpfully relay John Deere kill signals, it's a little hard to see how the kill switch is going to work.

The people who buy these tractors are likely buying them for a related feature also offered by John Deere.

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

The US is not a free market, even though the political ideology of its very vocal citizens may claim that it is.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

The word of the day is: "Neoliberal." Means something completely different from "liberal" and you will note that the entire US political system operates on neoliberal guiding principles -- they just pretend not to. Read Shock Doctrine for an excellent introduction. Another word that applies here to John Deere is "rentseeking."

Let me recommend a book : "Neoliberal economists must die!" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00H...

Re: Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Opportunist]

I admit it's been a while since I was in the US (since the TSA idiocy started to spread like cancer, to be exact), but I sure hope you don't consider Bud or Miller "beer".

The part of me that's Bavarian would like a word with you if you do!

Re:Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is a big MYTH that opening or fixing something voids the warranty, nor does it somehow put responsibly on the manufacturer. All those little stickers on the outside about voiding the warranty if opened or removed? Yeah, those don't jibe with the actual law.

Re:John Deere Isn't The Only Manufacturer of Tract

[budgenator]

The high end tractors they are really talking about are only available from 2 manufacturers. Modern Farmers are going to pull a chisel point plow, Disk Rippers, Clump busters and a cultipacker 60 feet wide in one pass over 5,000 acres, with a tractor that has 500 drawbar HP; next day pull a planter 120 feet wide.

Re: Liability

[Grishnakh]

I disagree. While you do point out the very extremes, in my view there are very few moderates in this country. Most camps really are very extreme. It's an "alien concept" because moderates are so rare, and most people have allowed their camp's de-facto leaders to actually set their opinions. I've seen people I know go from pretty reasonable positions and opinions to very extreme ones (usually conservative) in the space of a few short years, because that's how the leaders in their chosen camp have gone.

So I think it's wrong to call these sides "loonie fringe groups"; they may have started out that way, but the bulk of the population has adopted these positions.

Stop buying the brands

[Anonymous Coward]

that won't allow you to fix their tractors.

Re:Liability

[Carewolf]

Not sure if it is the case in the US, but where I live, I can not sign away my rights to file a lawsuit if I wanted to and my life depended on it.
"Be he SAID he wouldn't sue." would be laughed at so hard in court and would make you guilty almost by default.

Most countries including the US has laws against fake legalise that is intended to scare other people away from suing. This is actually illegal almost everywhere, it is just not enforced, and the lack of enforcement is building precedence.

Re: Liability

[Grishnakh]

Nope. If you disagree, you're free to take it up in court with John Deere/Microsoft/etc. Good luck with that.

The better alternative is to simply not buy from these companies.

Re:Liability

[JesseMcDonald]

And then just at the moment BigCorp starts to loose [sic], they settle out of court.

Settlements are voluntary and must be accepted by both sides. If the plaintiff doesn't want to settle there isn't anything BigCorp can do about it.

To me, out of court settlements should not mean that the case should be dropped.

What else would it mean? A settlement is nothing more or less than an agreement to drop the case in exchange for some compensation. You could prohibit settlements entirely, but it makes no sense to have an out-of-court settlement where the court continues to hear the case. Even prohibiting settlement would be somewhat problematic since the court relies on the plaintiff to argue their side of the case convincingly—it doesn't really make sense to punish a plaintiff for withdrawing their claims in response to a better offer by the defendant, and the enforcement necessary to prevent the plaintiff from deliberately losing would be difficult at best. Ultimately the court is there to see to it that disagreements are resolved, not to create new ones. If the plaintiff and defendant can resolve their issues on their own with an out-of-court settlement, why should the court interfere?

Re:Liability

[0100010001010011]

VW was engaging in behavior that cheated emissions regulations.

John Deere is mandated by the EPA to lock down their software so that throttle jockey Farmers can't do the same thing. The same guys that were cutting their catalytic converters off their cars in the 70s would be doing the same thing now days with the DPF and SCR systems.

If John Deere didn't make it reasonably difficult for the average user to change their software they would be held liable by the EPA. In terms of pollution there isn't much difference between VW cheating a test and a rogue farmer installing some high horse power/DPF delete firmware on his tractor.

Re: Liability

[cyberchondriac]

As a more-or less moderate, I've also noticed that when you express an opinion, neither side/wing takes much notice of when you agree with them, instead they focus heavily on the part that you disagree with them on, even if it's a side you to tend to lean towards more often. There's no compromise, no bridging the gap, instead of finding common ground with everyone, being an independent or moderate today just alienates you from everyone who isn't. Look at the crap Tomi Lahren is catching for saying she's for pro choice, for example, or the flak that Jim Webb has taken from his own party lately. Both parties have become a rigid, close-minded, inadaptable cult.

Re:Liability

[Carewolf]

but it is ammunition to draw out a case until you run out of money, or discourage you from starting a case in the first place

Yeap

Re: Liability

[Miamicanes]

Why aren't tractors from China that aren't encumbered by Deere IP available? What does "Deere Do" that Chinese tractors don't? Have tractors really come SO FAR in ~18 years that there's no viable US market for tractors that are built entirely from designs whose patents all expired?

I mean, do Deere tractors have some kind of semi-autonomous operation, so they can run in perfectly straight lines at precise distances and do something in 300 minutes and 40 passes that might otherwise have taken 500 minutes and 60 overlapping passes? Does their holy software provide some kind of real value to users (besides "allowing them to operate"), or is it literally just DRM?

Buy Soviet Union Tractors

[havana9]

As in don Camillo movie By the way Russian tractors made nowadays are nice: website.

Re:Buy Soviet Union Tractors

[Anonymous Coward]

They have a heavy duty tracked machine that looks good. Google: Images for agromash russian

Re:Liability

[OhPlz]

Don't sign it. If enough farmers refused, JD would be unable to sell their shit. Unless you're suggesting they were forced to sign at gun-point.

Re: Liability

[Type44Q]

Somalia is libertarian

Is it easier to spew such bullshit, retarded strawman lines with a straight face when you're logged-in as AC?

Re:Tractor investors, not breakers.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not doubting your personal experiences with older, expensive niche models, with huge, high-strung engines in a country with relatively few dealerships and reduced parts availability, but it does not really extrapolate to Mercedes or Audi in general, both of which sell about dozen of C and D segment cars with an ordinary ~2L turbodiesel engine for each V8 S-class or A8. Expensive cars have expensive parts and exotic engines may have complicated service procedures, regardless of the brand. Any additional luxury features may fail at some point. The more ordinary Mercedes and Audi models are not especially expensive to maintain and they have a well-deserved reputation for high durability and reliability.

Re: Liability

[Type44Q]

Speaking from experience; they do this because a large portion of their profits are made in repairs.

Fuck me; never would've guessed...

And nice "No True Scotsman" on your part....

[Ellis D. Tripp]

Enforcement of legal contracts is one of the few "legitimate" areas for the Government to be involved in, according to most Libertarian types I have spoken with. The proper role for the Government and courts is to act as the armed enforcement agents for the corporations.

Re:Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably less than manufacturers wanting tractor users to pay through the nose for unnecessary "services" and "repairs" that the mechanic's teenage boy can do for a box of sodas.

The era when you re-gap the plugs and replace the points is long gone.

Much of the vehicle maintenance these days requires expensive and specialized equipment and training. Even changing tires can be a challenge with the sophisticated sensors that monitor them, much less anything in a highly-computerized engine.

The upside is that you can drive a car 100,000 miles before it needs a tuneup. The downside is that when it does, it's probably better not to have it done by some monkey banging on stuff with a wrench. The greater downside is when they "protect" you by making it actually illegal to bang on stuff with a wrench.

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Well my army of multi-million dollar lawyers say your lawyer is wrong.

And now my army of multi-million dollar lawyers is going to sue you, your friend and Slashdot for libel.

Enjoy your time in court!

Check the stats, first, please...

[rocket rancher]

In 2012, 75% of the 2 million farms in the US produced a paltry three percent of total revenue. In fact, their average annual income was less than $40k per farm, and most of that was from "non-farm" income, like subsidies, retirement income, etc. The dismal data is here.

John Deere couldn't care less about those farmers -- the money obviously lies elsewhere. And exactly where is that? In the three percent of farms (classed "large" or "very large" by the US Dept of Agriculture) that accounted for a whopping 52 percent of all production and 66.4% of agricultural revenue in the US.

So -- John Deere isn't going to worry about a bunch of hayseeds hacking their tractors -- they are not a significant revenue source now, and based on concentration trends in the US agriculture market, they are going to disappear entirely.

Marx was right about one thing -- owning the means of production (he called it "tools"; we call it hardware, now) is the key to capitalist success, and in a largely mechanized and automated industry like agriculture, that means owning the software, and through it, the hardware. John Deere has apparently grokked it rightly, as well.

John Deere, the iOS of farming

[TheOuterLinux]

It's bad when you have to jailbreak your tractor. Then again, John Deere is just the Eacalade version of a Yukon in the tractor world; they're both the same under the hood. People often use collective pride to mask mass stupidity. "Proudly Made in the USA" I guess applies here. If this keeps up, Japan and Germany will just start making better products like they did in the 70s and 80s. Your parents called it junk, but it really wasn't.

Re: Liability

[Opportunist]

And I don't give a fuck whether you have a coat hanger party or whether you sing "every sperm is sacred", where do I stand now?

You see, the only agendas that are "controversial" in the US are the ones that have exactly zero impact on anything but can be blown out of proportion, hyped and emotionalized. From abortion to gun laws to drug use. None of them has ANY reasonable impact on the life of the average person, but judging from the time spent discussing them (sorry: ranting about them, nobody discusses anything in "discussions"), you'd think the US has no other problems.

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

might want to add HP to the list of laptops not to buy.

Re:Liability

[Grishnakh]

This JD/right to repair stuff has been coming up a lot lately on tech message boards, and I've asked the same question. The response seems to be that farmers are emotionally tied to a particular "color" of farm equipment, and refuse to buy anything else, much like some people always buy Fords or Chevys.

So basically they refuse to look at alternatives and whine that their chosen vendor keeps screwing them over.

Another response is that the dealers in their area only sell JD.

Re: Liability

[Opportunist]

You think? Actually, most people fall into the moderate spectrum. It's just the fringe loonies that are VERY vocal about their position. And with the internet, you get to hear from them a lot more than you used to.

If anything, you have people who move towards the extreme side of their political stance because they feel that they can only choose between that loonie and the one that is even more alien to their point of view. But I highly doubt that the average Christian feels represented by the Westboros, or that the average liberal feels comfortable to rally behind the "kill all white men" battle cry.

Re: Liability

[epyT-R]

I hope you're just trolling. This millennial/cultural willingness to submit to authority is one of the scariest aspects of things like this.

Re: Liability

[amiga3D]

The reason the marketplace doesn't work and that stuff like this happens is because of government regulations. The DMCA, copyright forever and patents for everything are government things that are used to manage the people for corporation benefits. In a completely libertarian environment John Deere would never think to try something like this because it would be suicide. People who think that government can solve all their problems are the slow learners. In this issue as with most government IS the problem.

Re:Liability

[Grishnakh]

If the JD tractors have firmware that cheats emissions tests and pollutes like crazy in the field the EPA would come down hard on them.

No, it won't. Trump will make sure of that. A year ago, you would have been correct.

Re: Liability

[Opportunist]

Yes, because your opinion isn't "pure" enough. It's only acceptable if you fully support us, because only then we can trust you.

Why do I feel more and more like the US politics is turning into something like a cult?

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL this guy can't be serious. Critical thinking is lacking in this one.

Re:Tractor investors, not breakers.

[Anonymous Coward]

I see Gizmodo and Kotaku on top so they are related to them?
We have seen them write a lot of bullshit articles lately, they are not exactly reliable news sources.

Re:Tractor investors, not breakers.

[drinkypoo]

The more ordinary Mercedes and Audi models are not especially expensive to maintain and they have a well-deserved reputation for high durability and reliability.

Yes, but they're just cars. If you take all the fancy kit out, all cars are at least decent. At least, anything you can buy in the USA. We're talking about depreciation of luxury cars, and their reliability or lack thereof.

There is something that makes ordinary Mercedes and Audi models expensive to maintain, though; the dealer's attitude towards parts prices. There are only a couple of Audi dealers in the entire country that do not rape you on parts orders, for example. For new vehicles, for which the replacement parts are not available through the aftermarket, this is a significant concern.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Get real

Re:Tractor investors, not breakers.

[TWX]

For a farmer a tractor is a very big investment and much of their success as a farmer is riding on it (sorry for the pun).
So I don't think a sane farmer will want to do anything to it that would ruin it.

Sure you allways will find some counter examples, like some people that first by a Mercedes S class and then run into all kind of issues with it because they are too cheap to have it properly maintained.

BTW one could make the same reasoning for normal cars: "Gee I'm fed up with all those cars comming in for repairs under waranty. From now on if you as much as change the oil yourself: that's it. Your on your own".

Farmers are used to being somewhat self-reliant in the physical sense. Farmers are used to doing a fair amount of physical work. The very notion of of being required to play this kind of money for something intangible offends the senses, especially when the machine itself already cost a half a million dollars to purchase.

I agree with the farmers. It is stupid to require software activation to use hardware that one owns, especially when the software activation is required to use features that one has already paid for.

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't in America either, it's just that the court system is run by green... so if you don't have the green, you can't smack the retards.

I don't see that improving in Europe, etc. either. Money is becoming the currency for justice and it's NOT because of Capitalism.

Re:Liability

[Grishnakh]

Then JD should have the owner sign an agreement that says JD not responsible for repairs/accidents due to non-JD service.

They don't need any such agreement. They already have a federal law that says this: the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975. It basically says that for repairing or maintaining your car (or other consumer good), you're allowed to use 3rd-party repair parts and have an independent mechanic (or yourself) do it, unless the manufacturer does all this stuff for free for you, and that they can't "void" your warranty because of this, but that they *can* refuse warranty claims that are actually caused by the non-OEM part or repair.

Maybe there needs to be a law.

There is, the one I just pointed out. Somehow, after 42 years, everyone's forgotten about it even though almost everyone in America drives a car and is affected by it. Honestly, even on car-related message boards, full of car enthusiasts, I see this come up constantly, with people asking "will my warranty be void if I don't take my car to the dealer to change the oil?"

Re:John Deere Isn't The Only Manufacturer of Tract

[Grishnakh]

Al Franken for president in 2020 and Jill Stein as VP. The bumper stickers will say "Franken/Stein 2020"

Totally off-topic and I know you're not supposed to reply to peoples' signatures, but this is great. However, I can guarantee the Democratic Party won't do it; doing something catchy which would be popular with people, instead of picking the worst possible corporatist neo-liberal candidate they can find, is anathema to the Democrats. If they really did run a "Franken/Stein" ticket, they'd surely win, for many reasons, and the memorability of that phrase would be part of building enthusiasm. So there's just no way it'll happen because of this. My prediction: Hillary will be "given" the nomination yet again, with some other crappy right-wing religious VP pick, and she'll lose, yet again, and we'll have 4 more years of Trump.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok. So you want to replace the wheels on your car you purchased 3 years ago for 350,000. If you do, it will not start. Not unless you call up your dealer and have a guy reactivate your car.

Once every 3 years isn't bad. Donate 250 dollars.

But what if you wanted to get home? What if it was a flat tire. Or a loose wire? See this is were it starts to suck. Your time and money. What if you don't finish your drive to work, you lose an account?

Now tractors have many issues.

Re:Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you willing to take that to the Supreme Court - especially the one that will exist after this year? For something that is worth less than a million$ (the likely minimum cost for the legal fees)? And probably lose - with the court that will exist after this year.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

>Let me know when John Deere, Microsoft, and Apple oppress their way out of the marketplace

Sure, the moment we have a free marketplace, they're gone.

Microsoft because no copyright law == No income due to 'piracy'.

Apple because no design patents == Perfect Chinese duplicates.

John Deere because no EULA enforcement == Ukranian firmware everywhere.

Or do you not believe in those scenarios?

Re: Liability

[Skuld-Chan]

Or a libertarian think tank:

http://www.independent.org/new...

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh so corporations like John Deer are equal to lawmakers in your view?

Il Duce would have been proud of you.

Re:Liability

[nightfire-unique]

That's it.

A lot of people don't realize that click-through agreements are mostly unenforceable because they're almost all one-sided contracts.

When you purchase a product, it's your to use. This right is enshrined in all kinds of law in both the US and Canada.

So "click OK to agree to the EULA/contract" is attempting to impose restriction without commensurate compensation. You already have the right to use the software, regardless of whether or not you click OK, so the EULA is not providing you any compensation. That makes it invalid, except when tied to services that you don't own.

But I'd be happy to see a new law introduced (in Canada, at least) that explicitly outlaws EULAs for everything non-service related, and severe restrictions on service agreements as well.

Hell, make onerous service contract agreements themselves taxable assets.

Re:Tractor investors, not breakers.

[Grishnakh]

Here in America, where the only German cars we get are high-end Mercedes, BMWs, Audis, and the only economical German cars are butt-ugly (and highly polluting) VWs made in Mexico, from everything I've read German cars are not all that reliable, and worse are specifically engineered to be impossible for you to work on them, and have atrociously expensive parts and service. One guy I knew had a BMW 2-3 years old that somehow developed suspension trouble and needed $1500 in repairs for it. An economical Japanese car is easy for you to do most maintenance and simple repairs in your garage and the parts are cheap.

Japanese cars are the ones you get if you want reliability and relatively inexpensive parts and service (best are the Japanese cars made in Japan). And don't whine about me comparing a $18-30k Honda or Toyota or Mazda or Subaru to a $40-90k BMW; those are the choices we get here.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

So the DMCA which gives these artificial lockouts legal force is a result of an evil corporation?

Re:Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Grishnakh]

If you modify the tractor in a way that is unsupported by the manufacturer, you void the warranty and John Deere is released from responsibility. It's not at all unlike your TV, or your cell phone, or millions of other products on the market.

The Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 disagrees with you. Go read it.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Little coding geek. Armchair IP lawyer. This is hardware affected by software. Primarily hardware. Hardware is the stuff in the real world.

Little coding geek in moms basement. You can repair and modify your custom or vendor bought computer all you want. The hardware. You can not modify the software.

Little child minded networking help desk looser. This is right to repair. Repair is a physical act upon hardware. Its not the 'repair' program in your software.

If you can't figure the rest out, you don't really mattter. You are not intellectual enough to make decisions that affect other people in the real world.

John Deere tech support...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Sir, have you tried switching it off and on again?"

Re:John Deere Isn't The Only Manufacturer of Tract

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, you have to admit that is a pretty cool tractor

https://www.caseih.com/northamerica/en-us/products/tillage/disk-rippers

Re:Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Feyshtey]

Hey Joe Dipshit, try jailbreaking your iPhone and get Apple to fix it for free.

If I were a farmer, here's what I'd do.

[istartedi]

I'd research alternatives to John Deere. I think there are actually some, right? If there are, I'd go to the Deere dealers first. I'd take my time, chat up the sales guy, get all the way to what looks like a closed sale. Then just as I'm about to sign I'd back out and tell him why. Waste their sales guy's time, and tell all your buddies to do it too.

If all of the companies are pulling this shit, it might be time for another tractorcade like we had in the 70s. Block the Beltway and turn up the turf on the Mall like they did back then. Maybe that'll get their attention.

You can be a moderate!

[Anonymous Coward]

You just have to be in a room with both Liberals and Conservatives and take a stance they both hate :)

See, moderate :)

Re: Liability

[Grishnakh]

Actually, most people fall into the moderate spectrum. It's just the fringe loonies that are VERY vocal about their position. And with the internet, you get to hear from them a lot more than you used to.

I'm sorry, that's just not what I'm seeing, at least on the conservative side. I don't see it on the liberal side; those people seem reasonable to me, but then again I don't hang out with college-aged people, and everything I'm reading about that crowd is pretty scary. On the conservative side, I'm seeing friends and family members I've known a long time buy into the stupidest crap straight out of right-wing news. This wasn't a thing 5+ and certainly 10+ years ago; it's all new thanks to the alt-right Facebook groups and news sites. Middle-aged people who normally are against the war on drugs and are pot smokers are big fans of Trump and Sessions; it's an utterly amazing display of cognitive dissonance. When pressed, they really think that Sessions will "come around" on the drugs issue even though all evidence is that he's a hard-line "tough on crime" and anti-drug (esp. anti-pot) ideologue. People who are highly religious are all for new right-wing/Trumpist policies like repealing Obamacare and shrinking Medicaid which people in their own families rely on to have healthcare. In fact, it's utterly amazing how the Christian conservatives/evangelicals have rallied behind Trump, someone who is obviously only religious about being greedy. AFAICT, a lot of this comes from a reaction against society's growing acceptance of homosexuality, and also against immigration. For some, it seems that nothing is more important than "getting rid of the Mexicans", and they're happy to sacrifice all their civil liberties and freedoms for this cause.

First Sale Doctrine.

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone with deep pockets (perhaps a union of farmers all working together?) should fund a lawsuit suing John Deere for violating the first sale doctrine. Carry it forward through all the appeals John Deere Lawyers will launch, until the John Deere company has been found guilty in all instances and exhausted all their appeals... as they will be, unless they buy a lot of Judges.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Just you wait; the thin edge of the wedge is already in as courts uphold arbitration clauses; you would be foolish to assume your 'right' to sue isn't going to be next.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

And he totally forgot about extreme overclocking.

Re:Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Feyshtey]

While I will admit to not having read the legal content of the law, I did read a couple of summaries. The law you cite is primarily meant to require those companies who issue warranty agreements to clearly and unambiguously define the terms, and protect consumers from shady or deceptive warranty jargon.
One line that was up on Wiki and the meaning repeated elsewhere states:

The federal minimum standards for full warranties are waived if the warrantor can show that the problem associated with a warranted consumer product was caused by damage while in the possession of the consumer, or by unreasonable use, including a failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance.

In other words if you disassemble the product, place new/different/altered components on it, and it can be determined that those new/different/altered components caused the product to fail, then the manufacturer is not liable to repair it under warranty.

Re: Liability

[Bob the Super Hamste]

To me that read more like no government is better than about the most corrupt shitty government one could come up with. Maybe just disposing of the entire North Korean government and military leaders and doing nothing else would improve that country too.

Re:Tractor investors, not breakers.

[Bert64]

Part of the reputation for things going wrong in luxury cars is due to there simply being a lot more *to* go wrong, as well as features being implemented in such cars while they were still cutting edge tech (by the time a feature makes it down into lowend cars its been refined over years)...

Another thing worth considering is cost/availability of parts... Jaguar parts are easy to source in the UK and relatively cheap, but in other countries they can be difficult to find and expensive for instance.

Free market

[Anonymous Coward]

At work. The free market will eventually make it so that you will have no alternative but to do only do what a company allows you to do with their product. Sure another company can come around and try to make a better cheaper alternative, but they wont ever be able to compete against multimillion dollar conglomerates

Re:Tractor investors, not breakers.

[Anonymous Coward]

They run into all kinds of issues because, like all luxury cars, it's designed to last about five years tops and then fall the fuck apart so that you buy another one.

I have a 2003 Mercedes, so it's more than 5 years old. It runs like a charm.

Re: Tractor Breakers, not Fixers. (BEER)

[cayenne8]

I admit it's been a while since I was in the US (since the TSA idiocy started to spread like cancer, to be exact), but I sure hope you don't consider Bud or Miller "beer".

The part of me that's Bavarian would like a word with you if you do!

OH goodness no.

Sure they still sell a LOT of the Bud type beer, but there are TONS of independent, smaller and craft brewers around the US.

Examples:

Abita Beer

NOLA Brewery

Second Line Brewing

Lazy Magnolia

Shiner Beer

And here's a wiki media of the rest of the LA breweries here down south....

Linky

The Shiner one is in TX..but those listed are just a very FEW of the many in my immediate area...and each area on the US has their own good breweries. Some have product that is only available locally, but others are nationwide.

It's been a couple of decades since you had to drink crappy beer in the US.

Re:Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Aliks]

I think the "warranty voided" argument is a bit of a myth.

In the US, this situation has come up many times, and if a vendor offers a warranty it has to meet the legal standards of the Magnusonâ"Moss Warranty Act.

For example, the vendor has to prove that user mods actually caused a problem.

Re:Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Grishnakh]

Yes, but that's not at all what you said before. You claimed that modifying the tractor would "void the warranty". That is a complete lie. The mfgr cannot "void the warranty", they can only refuse to honor a warranty if the problem is shown to be caused by damage caused by the end-user, as the law clearly states.

Re:Tractor investors, not breakers.

[drinkypoo]

Part of the reputation for things going wrong in luxury cars is due to there simply being a lot more *to* go wrong,

That's why I bought the 300SD, and it's also why I bought the A8. The 300SD is as dead-nuts simple as it is possible for an S-Class to be. It has none of the fancy stuff they put on the gasoline models, except a sunroof. It does use advanced materials — it's got Aluminum hood and trunk lids, and it made early use of composite bumper pieces. This was a design completed in 1978! But it has extremely advanced driving characteristics for its age, due to the combination of its multilink front suspension and semi-trailing arm rear that provides controlled toe in response to body roll. When the springs and bushings are in good condition, the whole car completely cooperates with the driver even when pushing it past its limits. Without going into a lot of detail, the A8 is as close as you can get in a more modern luxobarge that has a slushbox, and there's a six-speed manual transmission available for it unlike, for the Mercedes. The AWD is based on a mechanical center diff, for example.

Another thing worth considering is cost/availability of parts...

That's why the W126 300SD has to go, and the D2 A8 is incoming. You can actually get parts for the A8. In fact, my 1998 is a "parts car" that I got for $300 which, except for the failed transmission, is actually nicer than my 1997 for which I paid... more. I hope to recoup some of the costs there by selling some of the more valuable parts from the 1997. The nineties were truly a time at which Audi really only sold one car but in different sizes, and there is a lot of sharing between the A4, A6, A8, and even the VW Passat. (Wikipedia claims that the B3 Passat was a completely distinct design which does not share parts with Audi models. Nope.)

Jaguar parts are easy to source in the UK and relatively cheap, but in other countries they can be difficult to find and expensive for instance.

For large parts, that's a problem. For small ones, I can reasonably source parts from the UK or Germany. I've done both, though I'm not sure I've done both in the course of working on the Audi. I certainly have for the Mercedes.

Re: Liability

[sjames]

Exactly. The Libertarian party seems to have forgotten all about being against corporate charters. And certainly none of the few that actually get into office have even attempted to do away with prescriptions or any sort of licensing for anything. When is the last time a big L Libertarian has supported piercing the corporate veil or a class action lawsuit?

Re:Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Feyshtey]

Well what is a warranty? It's a promise by the manufacturer to repair or replace equipment if it fails. If you modify the equipment and it fails because of your modification, they are not liable for the failure and not held responsible for the repairs. Right? You make modifications that cause a failure then it's no longer their problem.

I will concede though that often manufacturers will claim that any modification releases them from all responsibility, regardless whether that modification has any impact whatsoever on whatever failures might have or may eventually occur. That's outside the bounds in my mind, and the law you pointed to would seem to support the notion.

Obviously there are circumstances that could lean the "right" decision to one side of the fence or the other.

Is this not blackmail?

[aphelion_rock]

Your crop is ready to harvest and your tractor won't start, not because there is any technical problem with the tractor but a software time bomb that you must then pay the dealer many hundreds of dollars to re-enable the software so you can use your tractor.
This is blackmail in my books.

Re:Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Anonymous Coward]

Trouble comprehending the words in the article? Fucking moron.

Re:Liability

[Archfeld]

What if you just let a 13 year old do the plowing for you ?

Re: Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Megol]

So you are a beer snob. Budweiser are excellent thirst quenchers on a hot summer day, works better than water IMHO and it tastes somewhat like beer too.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

"Many machines can be started at the beginning of a row and then will proceed down the row on its own, automatically turn at the end and return along the next row, guided by GPS the whole way."
Yes I think they use the same code as the snake app on the old nokia phones.

It's time somebody writes John Deere a "Dear John"

[Anonymous Coward]

Not buying their tractors.

Yes and No

[Anonymous Coward]

Many customers also benefit from cloud services because they can scale up. Examples: a startup working on medical technology should spend all of its effort on winning customers, and not on figure out how to set up a data center. A rapidly growing software business should just be able to buy more capacity and focus their recruiting efforts on developers, not IT staff, just like they lease a building. This is so that the organization focus can be on customer needs, not their own needs.

Re: Liability

[LifesABeach]

Da A/C

Re:Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Anonymous Coward]

the deere guy drives slowly out and hooks up the usb. the real work was already done and paid for

Re:Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Grishnakh]

When you say "void the warranty", that implies that the mfgr is able to refuse ALL warranty claims, and that the product is no longer covered by any warranty. This is flatly illegal.

What mfgrs *can* do is refuse to honor the warranty for specific claims when they can prove that the customer caused the problem in the first place, such as with a shoddy repair or faulty part.

So if you change your own oil and strip out the drain bolt and the oil all leaks out and your engine seizes, the mfgr does not have to repair your engine. But if you change your own wiper blades with Anco blades from Walmart, they are not allowed to refuse to fix your car when the engine fails, because the wiper blades have nothing to do with the engine. If you change your own oil and the brakes fail, again they cannot refuse to fix it. If you change your own brake pads and the brakes fail, they still cannot refuse to fix it unless they can reasonably prove that you did something wrong or used a bad part. General maintenance/consumable things like oil/filters, brake pads have lots of aftermarket support so it's not easy to prove that the Fram/Purolator/Bosch filter caused your engine problem.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Modifying the whitelist isn't terribly difficult. Will require 1-2 hours. You need a SOIC8 clip and a device that can flash over SPI, such as a Bus Pirate or Raspberry Pi. Naturally, knowing how to setup either will require more time. For the T430 you will need to disassemble. Also, I recommend keeping it. It's well supported by security minded modders, fairly speedy, and almost all of the bad shit can be disabled/removed, where as with newer models that is far more difficult.

Re: Liability

[Highdude702]

I completely agree with paragraph's 1-3. But I used to be a street thug, went to prison did my time changed my life. My father smoked crack until I was 14, I had my own issues with drugs. I currently only smoke weed and take Kratom for pain at work so I can do what I need to to provide for my family. Even after all of that, I may not be rich or ever be rich. I'm working class and proud of that. That being said, 4 years after I got out of prison I am now one of the most highly skilled and requested Electrician/Low Voltage tech's in Las Vegas. most people would never know I had ever been to prison unless i had my shirt off. So when people play that poor me card, it really upsets me. I have drug myself out of the mud to be what I am. Its something you have to learn to do for yourself or you will never be shit.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Rand, Marxist? Please, tell us more. I lol'd.

I understand her books are long, but at least glance at her Wikipedia article before trying to sound... "smart?"

Ba ba ba ba ba. Stop. I can only vomit so much.

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear engineer in a big multi-national,

Here's an idea, stop milking customers to the last drop. You want to make America great again? Back then companies made good product and sold them to appreciating customers and did not try underhanded stunts to pad their revenues.Period.

Squeezing every last drop of revenue is very short sighted and plain wrong.

The approved technician is bunk. You should now that right?

A disgruntled customer

Re: Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Opportunist]

Budweiser is.

But I doubt that's what you meant.

Had too

[Virtucon]

Green Screen Of Death GSOD

Easter Europe?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that right after Good Friday?

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Here here, COTD

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

EULA != contract

Re: Liability

[HornWumpus]

I believe abortion should be legal until the 75th trimester. Either parent. Quick way out of child support payments.

Re: Liability

[HornWumpus]

Pot is over. Even when the feds try to enforce their pot laws, they can't find juries to convict. We saw this under Obama. Raids on legal pot businesses went up, but they basically can't get convictions.

Re: Liability

[HornWumpus]

Rand wrote one thing worth reading: 'We the Living'. It's not long and is the most accurate assessment of marxism ever written.

Re:Tractor investors, not breakers.

[MooseMiester]

Just try and buy parts for an older German Car. Last year I brought my Father's 1969 Mercedes 280 SL "Pagoda" back to life. One brake shoe, $140. Rubber brake line, $80 each. Calipers $325 per wheel. Fuel Pump $450. Working on that car convinced me that Germans have really long arms and very small hands. A simple job - like replacing the fuel filter, or replacing the points - took hours. The fuel filter could not be done without two people, one under the car and one above.

Contrast that to my 1964 1/2 Mustang where a set of brake shoes is $34.99.... A fuel pump is $41.99... And this isn't just because people are crazy about old Mustangs, other old American cars have similar parts prices unless the are Packards, Auburns, etc.

Re: Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[HornWumpus]

Tastes like alka seltzer. But it's hardly unique, the whole world has crap beers. Even Germany: Warsteiner.

Don't even get me started on the Mexicans, Aussies or Canadians. There are many nations with worse beer than America, even before all the microbreweries. And Guinness, the world's most overrated beer, no worse stout on the planet. Watney's Red Barrel? Piss is everywhere. Some people like it, no accounting for taste.

Re:Tractor investors, not breakers.

[HornWumpus]

300SD were eurotaxis. They were built for a market that puts a million miles on a vehicle, but doesn't get emotional about keeping it going past its economic life.

Re:Tractor investors, not breakers.

[HornWumpus]

New VWs (VW/Porsche/Audi) are _terrible_ cars. Even my German relatives have them on the 'never again' list, much as it pained them to get there.

The first step to replace a brake master cylinder on a new 'bug': Remove front bumper...no joke. Like the old joke about British cars. (To replace the headlight, first remove the back bumper, disassemble going forward until you reach the headlamp...)

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry guy, but you're just lying to yourself and want others to do so as well. You are who you are, and no matter how tight you pull those bootstraps, you'll never squeeze the addict out of you. You fight it every day. It haunts your idle thoughts. People don't change. They may act a certain way and put on that facade but deep down inside when the basal instincts kick in, that beast rears its ugly head. Good luck on your sobriety theatre.

Easter Europe?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that a Politically Correct way of saying "non-Muslim Europe"?

Re: Liability

[Grishnakh]

Hmmm... very interesting. However, this doesn't help much with civil asset forfeiture, which Sessions is a *huge* fan of. So they'll just start stealing^Wseizing the property of anyone caught with pot.

Re: Liability

[HornWumpus]

Pot is the #1 cash crop in most states that have made it legal. The feds can't steal money from that stream fast enough to make any difference.

Re: Liability

[Grishnakh]

If they make it illegal, won't that suddenly make it not the #1 cash crop (at least not one that gets tax money into the state's coffers)? I'm not saying that banning it again (or rather, taking up anti-pot enforcement in a big new way) is a sensible idea, I think we're in violent agreement here, but sensibility hasn't stopped many people from doing many stupid things (such as electing Trump), because many people just aren't sensible. Plus, Sessions' anti-pot cronies stand to make a lot of money through vigorous anti-pot enforcement. Anyway, back to CAF: if they start stealing everything that pot owners and dealers have, that would quickly put a damper on things I think. What'd be interesting, however, is if the state governments turned on them and started arresting the federal agents for theft, and states started really rebelling legally against the federal government. It could get pretty ugly.

Re:Tractor Breakers, not Fixers.

[Anonymous Coward]

Try ACTUALLY READING THE POST
You pay $230 in a fee then pay $130 an hour for a tech to drive out and ok the repair parts the ACTUAL repair tech installed via a USB port. I suspect the hourly fee begins acruing when the tech starts driving to the tractor's physical location.

In commercial repairs for a business like a restaurant a plumber charges you for their travel time to the restaurant. If you get a mover to relocated your household goods they charge you gas fees from their wherehouse location to your home EVEN if they just unloaded stuff down the street at your new neighbor's house NOT for the gas used to go from their last job to your house.

I grew up raising cattle on a family owned place and over the years we owned 3 different tractors all different brands with all the accessory parts and pieces of equipment of many different brands many bought used or traded for animals or equipment we no longer needed. Some were so rusted i COULDNT TELL YOU WHO MANUFACTURED them.

With all the software involved those days are over I suspect.

But when you need to plant BEFORE the rain comes OR get the hay cut, raked, dried, baled , and hauled BEFORE the rain comes-an unexpected repair need is time critical -picture the cloud going down like it did for wasnt it Amazon not long ago-it can cause a crop failure or significantly reduced yield and/or quality of the crop. Being able to completely repair on site ASAP is crucial-sometimes you just need to get the equipment running just long enough to complete the task until the repair shop is open or has time to fix it or just has the parts on hand.

Another example is how the college textbook industry works. Publishers only make money when a new book is sold. Used books are their enemy. Thus they create meaningless new editions in subjects where there is little to no new info to publish..

Re: Liability

[HornWumpus]

The DEA doesn't have the budget. The states (CA anyway) have already passed laws making it illegal to spend state money enforcing federal laws when state and federal laws conflict. County prosecutors that cooperate with the DEA are forced (by the voters) to get honest jobs.

The federal government's stance on banking for pot trades hasn't helped. It's still largely a cash business and pot growers/dealers are essentially volunteering to pay taxes on revenue, while maintaining old school money laundering operations.

This last election was truly giant douche vs. turd sandwich. The only sensible option was voting 3rd party.

Re:Tractor investors, not breakers.

[drinkypoo]

300SD were eurotaxis. They were built for a market that puts a million miles on a vehicle, but doesn't get emotional about keeping it going past its economic life.

300SDs were extremely popular in the USA. That's why there are still so many of them running around in spite of the fact that the body is expensive to maintain. It's only relatively recently that most parts became relatively affordable, via eBay. You used to have to just pay exorbitant prices at dealers. But those parts you can't get are a serious problem. The "Febi-Bilstein" ignition lock I had to buy for my 300SD feels like garbage. I have a distinct feeling it is actually neither Febi nor Bilstein, but it's what is available.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah yes the old fallacy of how good compromise is.
I say 1+1=2.
You say 1+1=4
We compromise and say 1+1=3. And then go build a bridge using our compromise and are surprised when it falls down.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Easy peasie. I build my control system to call home every 24 hrs. If it doesn't get its 24 hrs stay active signel it tries again for the next 3 hrs, every 5 minutes. After that it dies.
So root and disconnect and enjoy your new yard art.

Re: Open Tractor consortium

[peacefool]

I believe, something like that has already been done by Marcin Jakubowski and the Civilization starter kit, see the Ted presentation.

Re: Liability

[RyoShin]

has to relearn that politics is not a matter of black and white

We have an election system that not only promotes tribalism, it promotes a duality: you are either the majority party, the minority party, or a rounding error. Which party is the majority just rotates every 6-8 years. The last time a major party fell out or was replaced was over a century ago, and it's only been the makeup of each that has changed since.

This has been a problem for almost as long as this country has held elections. Parties formed shortly after the country did, States, with few exceptions, all moved to first-past-the-post, winner-take-all based on the popular vote for the Electoral College. Only now is ranked/preferential voting being applied on a wide level: Maine voted it in with this last election. I'd like to say that other states will follow their lead, but Maine (and Nebraska, odd bed-fellows) has had Congressional District Method for the EC for a few decades now but no other states have picked up on it.

In short, American politics is black and white because Americans in general don't care enough to make gray options viable (and the elite for both major parties are all too happy to stay mum on the ability to do so.) I feel the Founding Fathers could have done more to stunt or blunt this, our election system being one of their few major failures (and one of the even fewer that has gone uncorrected.)

Re: Liability

[Opportunist]

You might probably notice if you compare our two examples that in yours, one of the two "opinions" presented is demonstrably false.

That's not usually the case in matters where compromises do happen.

Re: Liability

[Highdude702]

Well the fact that I haven't done hard drugs in 10 years proves you're a moron and had no idea what addiction actually is.