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Why American Farmers Are Hacking Their Tractors With Ukrainian Firmware (vice.com)
Tractor owners across the country are reportedly hacking their John Deere tractors using firmware that's cracked in Easter Europe and traded on invite-only, paid online forums. The reason is because John Deere and other manufacturers have "made it impossible to perform 'unauthorized' repair on farm equipment," which has obviously upset many farmers who see it "as an attack on their sovereignty and quite possibly an existential threat to their livelihood if their tractor breaks at an inopportune time," reports Jason Koebler via Motherboard. As is the case with most modern-day engineering vehicles, the mechanical problems experienced with the newer farming tractors are often remedied via software. From the report: The nightmare scenario, and a fear I heard expressed over and over again in talking with farmers, is that John Deere could remotely shut down a tractor and there wouldn't be anything a farmer could do about it. A license agreement John Deere required farmers to sign in October forbids nearly all repair and modification to farming equipment, and prevents farmers from suing for "crop loss, lost profits, loss of goodwill, loss of use of equipment [...] arising from the performance or non-performance of any aspect of the software." The agreement applies to anyone who turns the key or otherwise uses a John Deere tractor with embedded software. It means that only John Deere dealerships and "authorized" repair shops can work on newer tractors. "If a farmer bought the tractor, he should be able to do whatever he wants with it," Kevin Kenney, a farmer and right-to-repair advocate in Nebraska, told me. "You want to replace a transmission and you take it to an independent mechanic -- he can put in the new transmission but the tractor can't drive out of the shop. Deere charges $230, plus $130 an hour for a technician to drive out and plug a connector into their USB port to authorize the part." "What you've got is technicians running around here with cracked Ukrainian John Deere software that they bought off the black market," he added.
As is the case with most tech products, they try to reduce you to a user, not an owner. Maybe the farmers were tired of the tractor stopping in the middle of the field, and starting projecting ads on the windscreen while downloading an upgrade.
Surely, liability is way more important that get things done. I guess that's why electronics has become a golden cage and the times of hacking ataris/commodore/spectrums is long gone. That's what's making society dumber.
Corporate shill. Liability is with the owner, because that's common fucking sense.
The problem with a company like John Deere is they loose touch with their customers. John Deere obviously forgot that they service the farmer not the other way around. This too me would have a negative affect on new equipment purchases as well. Growing up in a farming community I know that many farmers do a lot of their own maintenance on equipment. Like any of us saving a little money and avoiding driving that big tractor to a dealer seems like a no brainer. Sadly this kind of behavior is happening to cars and trucks too, where the manufacture wants to lock the DIY out of fixing their cars.
Bollocks.
If you buy property is yours you should be able to do whatever you want with it.
Regarding the restrictive "contract" the farmer has to sign, that should be illegal.
One possible way around might be if the farmer's wife buys tractor, then farmer's wife sells tractor to farmer. Farmer is not then bound to the contract someone else signed for property he bought from his wife on the second hand market.
I'm British and very economically left wing (no not liberal in any sense of the word) but private property belongs to you not the shitty corporation that made it. Corporations have too much power thanks to liberal economics.
Liability is with the owner, because he was forced to sign a contract that makes him liable for anything.
There, fixed that for you.
Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
The first and most sensible solution would be to buy a Valtra, or any other competing product that doesn't have such stupid restrictions. There are options out there.
The second solution is to change forceful vendor lock-ins by affecting legislation. In my mind this type of lock-in is very anti-competitive and should be forbidden by law.
I've always wanted to visit Easter Europe, but can't find it on a map...
hacking their John Deere tractors using firmware that's cracked in Easter Europe
Let's hope there are no Easter Eggs in there.
Sig?
Why not let the insurers prove that the hacking caused the malfunction.
The owner of the tractor. Sorry, I have to be specific in this time and age: The person who paid good money to use a tractor that the manufacturer still thinks is theirs.
Just like the way it has always been.
The main difference being that if you use "original" firmware, rest assured that NOBODY will be liable. If anything, JD will certainly have a way to brush it off on the farmer anyway.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Let's assume that the modified version *only* has the licence crap removed.
Then your liability issue is a non-issue unless it's a John Deere bug.
Without evidence saying that something nasty has been added to the firmware (which could be checked) there is no reason to jump to that assumption.
Is John Deere legally liable if an UNMODIFIED tractor malfunctions and hurts someone? Nope, that's right there in the summary of the license agreement. Why do you think THAT will change because of modified firmware?
-=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
That too unfortunately but regardless, surely it's common sense that if you modify something you're taking on liability.
Time for competition to form the Open Tractor consortium. Components chosen for easy market access, easy repair and open source firmware. Tractor design for easy component access, with signature checks and protected registering for sabotage prevention. "I didn't change the autonomous driving and insecticide spreading components. Why does it tell me so? Aha, hackers employed by the envious cousin, next farm!"
Corporate shill. Liability is with the owner, because that's common fucking sense.
I'm pretty sure that JD will not pay a dime.
Oh, you mean the farmer. I think that doesn't quite fit the description of "owner"...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I'm as liberal as they come, but this is still bullshit. A liberal economy model REQUIRES competition, and anti-competitive measures like this are much but liberal they are not.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Bearing in mind that the summary talks about not being able to take a machine to an independent mechanic to have a transmission replaced I'd guess few to none, unless independent mechanics somehow charge for neither time nor parts.
Probably less than manufacturers wanting tractor users to pay through the nose for unnecessary "services" and "repairs" that the mechanic's teenage boy can do for a box of sodas.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
If this were rented equipment, I would understand the company's stance. But if someone outright buys an item, it's theirs. Stop legally binding people to stupid shit when they decide to fork out their hard-earned money for your products. Just because Microsoft does it, doesn't mean it has to be the norm. Christ.
I tend to rant.
Liability is with the owner, because that's common fucking sense.
The owner is, and remains, John Deere. The farmer is renting it, and agreeing to pay its bills.
Software as a Shackle. Nuff said.
We are quickly drifting from a (mind you, pretty localized) societal construct where democracy (you get to take part in the decisions) and state of law (laws are written down, everyone has (in theory) equal chances, everyone has recourses) back to something which resembles more a feudal system of yore. Free speech? Ah, but Pissbook is a privately owned company, so... Right to tinker? Ah, but you signed the contract, so...
'Twas nice while it lasted.
These tractors from the Indian company are pretty good, all old school, old tech. No fancy nancy software controlled stuff. Simple rugged diesel engine and clearly understandable mechanical parts. Apparently it is competing well in South Africa with other global giant farm equipment companies, due to "fix it and run it in the bush several hundred miles from the nearest repair shop" ability. Sub compact models are available in USA too.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Remember that the word liberal have lost its original meaning in American English.
Saying that you are liberal when you mean that you promote liberal economy makes sense in British English but needs further clarification in American English.
The more this shit spreads out from the software world, the sooner it ends.
I guess you can use "Libertarian"
I've read it, and it is mimicking that through idiotic and restrictive End User License Agreements. For the software.
There is no explicit clause that forbids tinkering with the hardware, but that seems to be enforced by the software. As in, change a part that has a microcontroller and it won't work without a John Deere technician coming and authorizing it.
Besides, if I read paragraph 13 correctly, the owner of the tractor has to indemnify John Deere and its dealers against all and any lawsuits, even if John Deere or the dealer is at fault for the cause of the lawsuit. That goes beyond everything I've seen in software EULAs so far. Those usually demand only indemnification against lawsuits that arise out of actions by the owner.
C - the footgun of programming languages
For a farmer a tractor is a very big investment and much of their success as a farmer is riding on it (sorry for the pun).
So I don't think a sane farmer will want to do anything to it that would ruin it.
Sure you allways will find some counter examples, like some people that first by a Mercedes S class and then run into all kind of issues with it because they are too cheap to have it properly maintained.
BTW one could make the same reasoning for normal cars: "Gee I'm fed up with all those cars comming in for repairs under waranty. From now on if you as much as change the oil yourself: that's it. Your on your own".
That should have been "You're on your own". Sorry for my abuse of the english language.
No, libertarians are the ones that believe that oppression is too important to be left to the government and should be handled more efficiently by the private sector.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
As an engineer in a big multi-national I also see similar things going on in our company.
They try to prevent untrained/unauthorized technicians from doing what we call "low-level" maintenance even though our equipment might be of vital importance of that buyer.
In our company this is not necessary bad intent towards the customer, but more a way of protection our own business because selling only gives you 1 paycheck, service gives you hundreds in the course of years.
Our machines are pretty comparable in complexity to modern tractors I believe as years of research and development have made it so they are of higher quality for the customer. This does not immediately relate to longer life times of our products but does improve on requirements because of new industry, government & environmental standards.
But it also makes it harder to do a correct maintenance if you don't know the complete working of the machines.
Anyways, I don't want to justify John Deer's way of working, or any other car manufacturer ( because that seems to be the case here in Europe), but I do understand their position better.
The customer should be informed when they buy a product that their new product can only be maintained by the approved technicians, there for the EULA probably that has been forced onto the farmers.
I also don't know how the market competition is for farming vehicles in USA, Europe or the rest of the world.
And I think that part should be fixed then, if there is no (reasonable) competition/alternative for the farmers then there is a problem there.
The owner is, and remains, John Deere. The farmer is renting it, and agreeing to pay its bills.
Try googling for "second-hand John Deere tractor". If people other than John Deere are buying and selling them, then how can they belong to John Deere?
Under a sane legal system (not the USA) an "agreement" only "applies" to people who have "agreed". So, although the original purchaser may have signed their rights away, the buyer of a second-hand vehicle is unlikely to have agreed to or to have signed any stupid stuff. Of course, they probably won't have any valid guarantee/warranty from the manufacturer at that point.
Bollocks.
If you buy property is yours you should be able to do whatever you want with it.
Regarding the restrictive "contract" the farmer has to sign, that should be illegal.
One possible way around might be if the farmer's wife buys tractor, then farmer's wife sells tractor to farmer. Farmer is not then bound to the contract someone else signed for property he bought from his wife on the second hand market.
I'm British and very economically left wing (no not liberal in any sense of the word) but private property belongs to you not the shitty corporation that made it. Corporations have too much power thanks to liberal economics.
No you bought a copy. You only bought the right to use the tracker. THe real tracker is one inside John Deere. :-)
THis is how Microsoft make their EULA with DOS/Windows. Basically you do not really buy Windows. You buy a right to use it and the goodness of MS to include a copy but not really the real WIndows etc.
Lawyers fascinate me
http://saveie6.com/
Results A/C, when it's your unplowed field, we'll see what you have to say about it.
Says you A/C, how about this John Deer law applied to sharpening a pencil?
Actually a sane legal system (still not the USA) does not permit you to sign your legal rights. You can sign a contract claiming that you are waving your legal rights but those clauses are null and void as far as the courts are concerned.
That's a different conversation. If you modify the tractor in a way that is unsupported by the manufacturer, you void the warranty and John Deere is released from responsibility. It's not at all unlike your TV, or your cell phone, or millions of other products on the market. But what we're talking about here goes well beyond that. John Deere and other manufacturers are lobbying government to make law out of the notion that while you might have paid upward of a quarter million for that tractor (not an unusual sum with modern agriculture equipment), you don't actually own it, and you're not allowed to do anything with it that John Deere doesn't expressly allow.
"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
The US definition of "liberal" and "conservative" are going the way their definition of "socialist" went a long time ago: The gutter.
They define it by the loonie fringe groups. Being a liberal means that you're somehow in SJW territory, and being conservative means you have to agree with the Westboro Baptist Church bullshit. The idea that most people belong to NEITHER camp but are actually moderates, close to the center and generally ok with accepting some things the "other side" has to say and give it at least a whirl as a thought experiment, i.e. the notion that it could actually be that the "opponent" is RIGHT with some of the things he's saying, that's become a completely alien concept.
Because if you don't toe the party line and drink the cool-aid, you're one of THEM!
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Even better, if the clause cannot be declared null and void, then the *entire contract* is.
"Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
Mommy's little angel is such a good little child. Look how he only does exactly what he's told by the nice bureaucrats.
"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
Regarding the right for owners to have a choice in how their machines are serviced...
In Europe there is legislation coming into effect in July 2021 which will requires OEMs to provide information to 3rd parts service tool manufacturers and Independent Operators such that they can achieve the same level of diagnostic capability as the OEM with their own tools.
See links like:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal...
http://www.cema-agri.org/publi...
In the U.S. there is no equivalent legislation in the U.S., but I would not be surprised if we see something similar in a few years. There are groups lobbying to this end, such as;
http://repair.org/association/
Disclaimer: I work for one of the 'other' Ag manufacturers on the topic of making the machines comply with this legislation
So... just buy something not John Deere... I mean, the logo on the equipment won't match your cap (which is free advertising for the company you seem to not like) but hey...
My job description says my place in society is to hack equipment I did not design or develop.
May I be present when you discuss with my CEO why his CISO can't pentest and risk assess the tools he's supposed to roll out company-wide?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Even if it was designed to not work right on purpose?
Taking liability and responsibility for something you cannot even assess the risk of, let alone mitigate it?
Among people working in security such jobs are nicknamed "ejector seats". With someone else having the launch trigger.
You better pay me well if you plan to put me on one.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
The word of the day is: "Neoliberal." Means something completely different from "liberal" and you will note that the entire US political system operates on neoliberal guiding principles -- they just pretend not to. Read Shock Doctrine for an excellent introduction. Another word that applies here to John Deere is "rentseeking."
Stop buying limited rental products!
Speaking from experience; they do this because a large portion of their profits are made in repairs. If you are a farmer and you only have a few weeks to get your crops planted and your equipment breaks down you will pay way more than what the repair is actually worth if you are losing money each day it's not in operation, in fact you may even be looking at bankruptcy and ruin all because the local dealerships wants $$$$ for a repair that should cost $$$ You will pay the extra money because the alternative is worse
Farmers should organize an event to burn old non repairable John Deer equipment and advertise their purchase of non John Deer equipment. And further sell t-shirts about how John Deer is no friend to the American farmer. Do this at the Forth of July celebrations. And have town hall meetings with speakers telling their Horror Stories about John Deer. Find another manufacturer and help promote them over John Deer. Some of them might even give you a deal on a trade in if you publicly destroy your John Deer. Do not stop until everyone currently on the board of directors and otherwise that are running the company are completely replaced.
In the meantime get the right to repair laws on the books.
Even better, remove the market for hacked firmware in the first place by backing right-to-repair laws, sponsored by your local member of legislature.
Or is that too 'big-government' for someone?
And yet they continue to buy John Deere products, perpetuating the cycle.
Actually, sane legal systems have a provision against underhanded practices like that.
Our legal system actually knows a few "non-negotiable rights" you have in a contract, no matter whether the contract tries to void them, you have them. You can for example not waive the right to enforce a contract against your contractual partner (i.e. making it a one-sided contract where only one side can hold the other side to fulfillment).
Funny enough, the provision could best be translated as "protection against immoral clauses" ("contra bonos mores" for the legal geeks here).
And our judges tend to enforce such things quite broadly if they feel you try to bullshit your business partner. Or, worse, the judge.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
THe real tracker is one inside John Deere. :-)
Dude, I agree that John Deere is full of it. I just question that "it" is a tractor. Though you may use a tractor to pull a whole trailer of "it" out onto your field, your crops could really benefit from some of "it".
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
As if not voiding the warranty would make John Deere liable for anything. Read that contract and realize that it pretty much says "If our machine somehow fucks up and kills your firstborn, well, tough luck, you've been stupid enough to buy our shit, now live with your decision!"
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Is John Deere legally liable if an UNMODIFIED tractor malfunctions and hurts someone? Nope, that's right there in the summary of the license agreement. Why do you think THAT will change because of modified firmware?
Like most here, you don't understand how US law really works. My best friend is a lawyer, we've known each other since college, and he's taught me a lot over the years. One of the things he's taught me is that when you sign an agreement that says you sign away your rights, that doesn't necessarily mean you actually have signed away your rights. There are various ways around this kind of thing, including arguing something that amounts to saying that John Deere coerced you into signing that and you had no choice but to agree. Also, you seem to not realize that once you get to court, anything is possible. Depending on how good the lawyers are, the judge's personal involvement in the case (whether he/she steers the jury with comments or leaves them alone to do whatever they will), and the jury itself, any kind of verdict is possible.
You may want the government and corporations to do your thinking for you and mindlessly do as you're told like an insect. Most of us, on the other hand, want to keep both sovereignty and property rights, and have no intention of adopting the mindset or property rights perspective of an ant colony. We have no interest in joining you in devolving into a bipedal drone.
Especially when it's designed not to work right on purpose.
This goes double for the preprogrammed obsolescence timers.
Is John Deere legally liable if an UNMODIFIED tractor malfunctions and hurts someone? Nope, that's right there in the summary of the license agreement. Why do you think THAT will change because of modified firmware?
There are a lot of things you can not sign your way out of. Most of their contract is not just invalid, but probably illegal.
Sure you allways will find some counter examples, like some people that first by a Mercedes S class and then run into all kind of issues with it because they are too cheap to have it properly maintained.
They run into all kinds of issues because, like all luxury cars, it's designed to last about five years tops and then fall the fuck apart so that you buy another one. The last one designed to last was the W126, but even it doesn't because they also pioneered biodegradable wiring harnesses at the same time. The window wiring fails where it flexes, and lots of other problems which are basically the same exist. The W140 is legendary for wiring problems. And every Mercedes since then is built just like every other car.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Naw. Libertarians believe that companies that oppress users will fail in the marketplace. (Let me know when John Deere, Microsoft, and Apple oppress their way out of the marketplace). I kinda like libertarians. They are often nice people who mean well. And they are frequently quite good on civil liberty issues. But they are remarkably slow learners.
You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
Libertarians believe very strongly in property rights and that one of government's most important functions is to preserve property rights:
https://www.lp.org/platform/
The only proper role of government in the economic realm is to protect property rights, adjudicate disputes, and provide a legal framework in which voluntary trade is protected..
I don't know of any Libertarian that would consider a tractor, whole or in part, that would belong to John Deere after a farmer has voluntarily paid for it.
The Left/Right divide has gotten ridiculous, to the point where being a moderate makes you the enemy of just about everyone.
Besides, if I read paragraph 13 correctly, the owner of the tractor has to indemnify John Deere and its dealers against all and any lawsuits, even if John Deere or the dealer is at fault for the cause of the lawsuit. That goes beyond everything I've seen in software EULAs so far. Those usually demand only indemnification against lawsuits that arise out of actions by the owner.
The thing about EULA's is that you can put anything you like in there. You can demand the forfeiture of their first born if you like. What matters is what a court of law will enforce, EULA's are CYA memos, not legally enforceable contracts.
What is enforceable depends on how bad the courts are in your area.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
I don't know about you, but if I had "rooted" my tractor, I think the first thing that would get disabled is any way to connect the thing to the Internet (which is, BTW, not all that easy to connect to wirelessly in many rural areas).
Unless GPS satellites will helpfully relay John Deere kill signals, it's a little hard to see how the kill switch is going to work.
You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
Yes, but to do this, you have to actually go to court which is an insurmountable obstacle in many cases and fails to provide timely relief in others.
Are there alternatives to John Deere? Is there some lock-in with attachments, trailers, etc. (As a non-farmer I don't know)? I would have thought that the ability to repair would be a key selling point for competitors. If farmers stopped buying John Deere I expect they would review this policy
Is this guy serious? This guy can't be serious... if you hack the firmware, you are at fault. BUT if you had a stock tractor and shit went wrong, John Deere would probably find a way to blame it on your as well.
Hmm. It's off topic but here goes.
Is it in Mercedes best interest to have a bad reputation? I think not.
Just for kicks I did a small search on a mercedes S class of 10 years old. The minimum price (here in Belgium) is around €15.000 (but there were also some from around €30.000).
I recently sold the Nissan Almera of my father which was also around that age and which worked perfectly - €500 was all I could get. thats at 30 times less (in the best case).
A new Nissan of the same class of the Almera (Pulsar or Juke) is around €15.000 and a new S Class is around €85 000 which is 'only' about a factor 6. Even if you pimp up your Merc to the double of the price (which you could easily do) the Merc is still keeping its value much better (relative speaking).
I can't tell if your post is tongue in cheek and hence quite funny in a dry sort of way, or ignorant of the features common to modern farm machinery. Modern tractors do indeed have fancy dashboards, GPS, and mandated speed restrictions. Modern farm machinery is getting rather close to autonomous activities like we see in passenger vehicles for public highways. Many machines can be started at the beginning of a row and then will proceed down the row on its own, automatically turn at the end and return along the next row, guided by GPS the whole way. The idea being to more precisely control fuel consumption, pesticide applications and so on.
I need a wheelchair van for my son. Help me get the word out. https://www.gofundme.com/wheelchair-van-for-jj
He's either somebody you meet at a stag party, or the guy your aunt eloped with.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
In many jurisdictions EULAs are extremely hard to enforce because the user is forced to agree before they have knowledge of what they are agreeing to, i.e. before they have even tried the software. I would assume the same with this but unfortunately the story is about the US which has an extremely draconian attitude to such things.
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
Whomever performed the modification, if that modification is the cause of the incident.
It's not like we're discovering new issues here.
In 1968, if you took your Buick to your neighborhood fix-it guy and he used sub-standard wheel bearings and they caused the wheel to fall off and kill someone, Mr. Fix-it would be liable.
Really, this isn't rocket science just because the story includes the word "firmware".
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
You cannot be moderate.
You're instantly lumped into one side. Say you don't agree with something Trump said and you have to be a SJW. Say that no, you don't think their position is true, get asked why you hate minorities and how long you've been a member of the KKK. Explain that you sure as hell don't agree with the alt-right (whatever that may mean now, anyway, since nobody ever really explained to me what alt-right really meant, and whether it's the opposite of ctrl-left, which doesn't do anything either, at least on my keyboard... but I ramble) and we're back at being asked whether you enjoy sucking Laci Green's femdick and how much money you dumped on Sarkeesian.
And don't you DARE to say that you don't care much about either of them. At best, the board moderator will block you for a week for starting a flame war...
Not wanting any part of that mudslinging just isn't possible anymore. Not being part of one bullshit movement automatically means you MUST be in the other, equally insane, one.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
In other words, Ayn Rand, just not as close to Marxism/Leninism as she was...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
If you buy property is yours you should be able to do whatever you want with it.
I buy a gallon of oil. I should have the sovereign right to pour that down a storm drain.
I buy a gallon of glyphosate. I should have the full right to overspray it such that it runs down into the municipal water features.
The EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) stipulates that a lot of what goes into modern engine firmware for emissions regulations.
Because modern tractors, like most things, have an engine running them. I would guess that this tractor has at least 3 control modules. (Give or take given how vertically integrated JD is).
One ECM for the Engine.
One TCM for the Transmission.
One more for the body cab and hydraulics.
A natural reaction might be "DIY parts void your warranty", but the farmer who installs a third-part transmission is out of warranty anyway so custom sw won't make a difference.
Not necessarily. Installing a third party transmission would only void a warranty (in Europe, anyway) if the replacement part was responsible for the fault for which you're claiming. For the car example, a car maker couldn't refuse to honour a warranty claim for a faulty engine if you used OEM brake parts.
If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
Is John Deere legally liable if an UNMODIFIED tractor malfunctions and hurts someone?
It absolutely is. Look at "diesel gate" with VW. If the JD tractors have firmware that cheats emissions tests and pollutes like crazy in the field the EPA would come down hard on them. License agreement or no license agreement.
So statisticaly speaking, who will have the better lawers? And if the outcome can go both ways, will the individual risk his livelyhood on that bet?
And then just at the moment BigCorp starts to loose, they settle out of court.
Your best friend is a lawer and he will get out on top either way.
To me, out of court settlements should not mean that the case should be dropped.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Not sure if it is the case in the US, but where I live, I can not sign away my rights to file a lawsuit if I wanted to and my life depended on it.
"Be he SAID he wouldn't sue." would be laughed at so hard in court and would make you guilty almost by default.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Libertarians believe that companies that oppress users will fail in the marketplace.
Can you show me a libertarian who believes that corporations should be able to show up with guns to enforce "intellectual property" like governments do?
Hint: libertarians believe in none of: corporations, intellectual property, or initiation of force. Nice strawman though.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Contract law for businesses is a different beast than for individuals. Fewer consumer protections apply, you're expected to know a lot more about your industry and you're also considered to be able to hire a lawyer before entering into a contract.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
Usually, these guys are modding the firmware to increase horsepower. Sure, I suppose in a few cases it comes down to mechanical breakdown situations, but mostly these guys are trying to squeeze out a few more horses. Last fall, my brother's JD combine started spitting up pieces of main bearings, blew the turbo. Then the rest of the engine went. $25,000.00 for a new engine and a week of down time. Turns out he had chipped the engine and the mechanic said that he had replaced 5 engines in the past weeks for similar failures - all of them chipped. I asked my brother "Why on earth would you chip such an expensive piece of equipment?" He replied that he wanted the extra 10 horses.
Having said that, there is no way that JD should be able to control the owner of the equipment in the fashion that they do. If the farmers want to mod, they should be able to. Whether it's a good idea or not. It should be the owner's decision.
"The ferrets, they're every where I tell you!"
Illegal?! LOLOL; can anyone spot the scumbag John Deere shill?
"One of the things he's taught me is that when you sign an agreement that says you sign away your rights, that doesn't necessarily mean you actually have signed away your rights."
I think you're likely correct. **BUT** There is no way to know if the John Deere contract is enforceable and to what extent it is enforceable other than to ask a judge or to wait until someone else does so. And no matter what the court decides, the loser will appeal. And the appellate court decision will be appealed of course.Many years (And following a significant transfer of assets from noble citizen farmers and John Deere corporate scum to legal practicioners) the matter will be decided. If John Deere loses, they will most likely come up with a new and somewhat less obnoxious contract that still says you can't modify their software.
I am not a lawyer. Just my view from a healthy distance.
Welcome to Dystopia folks. Tour buses leave on the hour. We are not liable if the denizens here harm you, and you are liable for any damages you inflict on them. Just read and sign this 254 page contract. If you are having trouble reading the 3 point type, you can purchase reading glasses at the ticket counter.
You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
But see if i get an add in card that isnt made by asus, and i can get it to work, without their help just fine. i dont have to pay asus to come out and give me permission to use it on a piece of hardware i bought, you see where your comment becomes the backwards shit seen here every day. complain one day that you cant modify your own stuff. the next day you say its not safe for other people to modify their stuff.
I knew there was a reason i liked you. But the fact is theres no point talking to morons like that. they probably try to use their cell phone as a computer and figure theres no way you can alter the magic pixies in it.
Did your friend explain how, in a civil trial, none of that even matters if the other party (presumably the plaintiff) has a larger war chest than you? Witness Creative Labs vs Aureal...
youre one of those "they told me i have to do it this way so it must be the only way." I on the other hand value my money. if i can purchase an item, i own it and can therefor do whatever i damn well please to it including turning it into a much better device or a steaming sack of shit. and the manufacturer of that item can do fuck all about it. and if they try i am one of the few willing to stand my ground. they can try their best. i modify almost everything i buy. its fun and most of the time i can make whatever it is better for my liking.
So most of the people who are affected by this are farmers, which are generally rural people, who generally are right-wing/libertarian/tea party/republican etc? The same people who want the government out of everything and think the free market is the best solution? Deal with it. When you vilify people for wanting sensible regulation and laws that actually keep the market competitive, this is the crap you get. I have absolutely no pity, same for so many family farms being bought up by corporations. These problems are their own making. Bow down to your corporate lords peasants or just sell the family farm and go work in a cube.
Somalia is libertarian. Limited government, those with wealth can afford private armies, and wealth dictates who wins nearly all the time. This is why there are no functional intentionally defined libertarian governments on earth.
Perhaps they are hoping that in their dotage they will marry a big-breasted Ukranian woman? http://marinalewycka.com/tract...
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
...can do for a box of sodas.
In John Deere territory, it'd be a case of soda/i> (or, if you're in parts of the South or Midwest, a "case of pop")... but nevertheless, toenail clippings, seashells and ski-ball tickets are far likelier forms of currency... Seriously, a "box of sodas?!" :)
Best thing you could do is sell it, then buy a different brand.
Most tools used in farming can be attached to any tractor. if you have something that requires a J.D. tractor, well, you bought into their ecosystem, your problem.
For that matter, they haven't been doing this kind of shit for all that long. Buy an older one and refurbish it.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
I'm not supporting this asinine notion that farmers cannot fix their own equipment. I'm wholly against it. I was simply responding to someone suggesting that John Deere's motivation is protecting themselves from people breaking JD equipment and then forcing JD to fix it for free. What JD is doing is trying to monopolize maintenance on all their equipment, and do it when they get around to it and at inflated costs.
"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
Well - we've all had the ability to re-chip our car computers so I don't see this being any different.
Where I'm from, you'd hand him a crate of beer, but you Americans and your fear of anyone under the age of like 80 drinking alcohol...
Like your beer qualifies as alcohol! Or as beer, for that matter!
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
well if i could possibly bind alt-right to ctrl-alt-f4 than i wouldnt honestly care what it meant because i wouldnt have to watch morons shoot rockets between their glass cathedral's :O but you seem to be onto something here. politics has ruined our country. you can see it tearing at the seams more and more every day like the obese americans most here are.
Precision farming helps the farmer reduce inputs and get more out of the ground and precision farming is built on software. A good example is a GPS based guidance system which automatically steers your tractor up and down the rows saving you in the order of 10% of costs on fuel and seed and labor just from driving less because the auto-steering reduces underlap and overlap in rows. There are many more software features for things like engine management (again to save the farmer money on diesel) and 100's of other things.
Modern tractors, combines and sprayers can be quite sophisticated and may have between 10-50 electronic controllers and hundreds of sensors on them to manage all of these different control and process systems. I would argue that they are more complex than modern automobiles as farmers expect that they can plug in electronically managed implements (from a different manufacturer) into their machine and to be able to control and operate it from the in-built user interface.
Sure you can buy a 30 year old tractor without the software, but your operation will be far less efficient and it will cost you more and take you longer. There are projections of the global population in 2050 for instance and the world will need to feed a lot more people and there isn't a similar proportion of arable land becoming available so farming needs to become more and more efficient. Can we optimize seed placement, even recording the position of each exact seed so that we can reduce spraying costs by only spraying the exact plant and not the entire swath of land? Software is helping with some of these things.
The US (and not just them, that cancer is spreading) has to relearn that politics is not a matter of black and white (and no, I don't mean it in any racial sense, dammit!). Politics is a lot of shades of grey and you can actually think that one idea from politician A is good while you disagree with his position on topic B and think that someone from a different political spectrum is right. That is actually possible!
Also, disagreeing with A doesn't mean that you agree with B. I think Hillary is a despicable bitch who is by no means in touch with anything that matters to the average Joe out there, but that doesn't mean that I think that Trump has all the answers. Or Sanders for that matter. I do think that skin color, heritage, upbringing or gender should not matter when it comes to your chance to accomplish anything, but that does neither mean that I think we should wallow in collective white guilt and bend over backwards to hand out freebies to "underprivileged" people who think they're entitled to handouts because they are $minority, nor does it mean that I think that everything is absolutely peachy and we have total equality already anyway just 'cause our law books say we should.
I also think that I have no right to say that you have to be the gender your dangly (or not so dangly) bits convey, but I refuse to be yelled at for "assuming a gender". I do know a few transgender people, and I know what bullshit they have to go through, but EVERY SINGLE ONE of them is going out of their way to make absolutely CERTAIN you KNOW what gender they identify as. They are essentially the living stereotype of their gender, just to make sure that people, at least those that do care, address them correctly. Funny enough, none of them ever got into a hissy fit over being "mis-gendered", the most you'd get is a "please, I'd prefer he/I'd prefer she". And guess what, it works.
But I digress.
What we see in politics, and people, is what I'd identify as overcompensation. You don't want people to think you could maybe take position A, so you go WAY overboard and take position B to grotesque lengths and, and this is more the problem, accept that people do that. And that's in my opinion the problem.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
That's Jalopnik, a site that has decided that every single part of any German car will fail every five minutes and will cost $1 million to replace and they frame most of their articles to fit that narrative, despite the fact that their conclusions are mostly based on a small number of American-market models with a very shady service history and lots of aftermarket parts, bought by the umpteenth owner at a price that seems to good to be true and that, in the real world, German cars tend to be the most reliable (see e.g. ADAC's breakdown statistics).
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy reading Jalopnik, but you have to take some things with a lot of salt. It's directed at an American audience and they have a lot of strange prejudices and many in-crowd jokes.
Sure but before that lets have John Deere
1 PUBLISH (in an accessible forum) a document that proves the OEM firmware is safe and does not have any backdoors that can be used to disable the tractor remotely
2 provide at no extra charge insurance against the tractor being disabled for any reason causing a crop failure/ or other loss of profit
what John Deere is doing should cause RICO charges
Imagine if a foreign power could hack all the Deere equipment right at harvest time. However, that would be as unlikely as hacking a national election.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
Yes, but you are going from one overlord to another with cracked third party software. At least you can try to sue John Deere.
No idea what the best solution is here; publicizing JD's dirty laundry helps a little, but it is quickly forgotten. I am curious why they don't just do TaaS (Tractor as a Service).
The EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) stipulates that a lot of what goes into modern engine firmware for emissions regulations.
Looks like the EPA isn't going to have the money to enforce much of anything according to the proposed federal budget.
This is a good thing. Don't get me wrong, I like clean air, water, etc, and at one time in the past, the EPA was at least passably effective and focused on actually protecting the environment in a reasonable and pragmatic manner. The EPA has since grown into an out-of-control federal bureaucratic monster. The EPA has jumped the shark and does far more harm to society than good. Time to start over.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
You got the wrong country. It shall be legal, until someone can prove it is unsafe. And not just unsafe, but substantially unsafer than the original.
And even then free citizens of a free country should be free to endanger themselves however they wish — be it with alcohol, firearms, drugs, or "unapproved" farm equipment.
All that said, I suspect, John Deere are privately happy with the situation — they get to sell more tractors this way. Thanks to this "Ukrainian firmware", you can buy them with or without the warranty — a choice, no doubt, made illegal (or very costly) by earlier regulatory and/or legal rulings. Such as this one.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Almost no one is complaining about not being able to hack computer hardware; you still can really (it's much harder than before), but no one wants to because there's no need for it.
What they're complaining about is the software and firmware. That's the whole point of the RPi you pointed out: no one cares about modifying the base PCB, but they're having all kinds of fun messing with the open-source software, and also adding on hardware using the existing interface ports.
[...] being a moderate makes you the enemy of just about everyone.
That would explain why some asshats are accusing me of threatening to shoot them.
https://www.kickingthebitbucket.com/2017/03/21/have-i-threatened-to-shoot-you-today/
I wonder how can John Deere remotely lock a tractor.
I see only two options:
1. They install a mobile modem (with sim) into every tractor or
2. They require the tractor to go online (via WiFi) every day or so.
In any case I see easy ways to circumvent option no.2. But with option no.1 they'd be assuming universal mobile coverage across all USA, which seems not to be the case...
Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
You are always liable. And when you are not, their lawyers will demonstrate otherwise in front of a judge.
Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
The real question is, why does a tractor of all things, even require firmware? It's not a complicated machine with fancy dashboards and GPS and mandated speed restrictions and whatever. It's a god damn tractor!
My uncle in Idaho has a $250K tractor with navigational computer, HVAC, satellite TV, a comfortable seat and floodlights for night time work. The thing practically drives itself. All he does is sit inside it for 18 hours per day from Spring to Fall, and then take three months off for winter to go fishing down south. He makes more money than all the farmers he works for during the growing season.
same person that when the brakes you fixed fail and you mow down schoolchildren.
Put your big boy underwear on and take responsibility when you drive a large piece of machinery.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
The Libertarian Party in the United States certainly supports corporations. Quoting from their platform:
2.7 Marketplace Freedom
Libertarians support free markets. We defend the right of individuals to form corporations, cooperatives and other types of entities based on voluntary association.
Enigma
The FSF should open farming offices in California, Iowa and Texas. (Top 3 agricultural producing States)
Never thought Merritt and Wyatt would push the FSF envelope.
I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
That's Jalopnik, a site that has decided that every single part of any German car will fail every five minutes and will cost $1 million to replace
They are essentially correct. Check out for example the typical longevity of and replacement cost for the vaunted S-Class air suspension. The parts are still too new to chance getting from third parties, so you have to go to the dealer. If you don't have a very good relationship with them, you're into thousands per corner.
despite the fact that their conclusions are mostly based on a small number of American-market models with a very shady service history and lots of aftermarket parts
You should be able to buy aftermarket parts. If the design requires insanely fancy-pants parts, it's not a good one. For example, the chain tensioners in the 40V 4.2 liter Audi V8. The 32V engine doesn't have VVT, so it doesn't have them, and it's considerably more durable as a result. Both have the same stupid Flennor/Gates timing belt with a 60k lifespan. California mandates that timing belts have a 90k lifespan, Audi said "sure whatever" and rated it for 90k. It's the same belt. Chains or gears forever. But that's apparently too noisy for luxury. I'd be better off with a LS motor, which has none of these considerations and yet is just as efficient.
in the real world, German cars tend to be the most reliable
They tend to be the most expensive. That is, they require a lot of dollars invested to make them reliable. I've got a full service history on a 1997 A8 Quattro to show how and why that is the case. In spite of that I've been going through an epic to transfer its transmission into a 1998 that I got as a parts car. It's got half the miles on it, and it's in nicer condition in general inside and out. If I weren't capable of doing this stuff myself, it would make more sense to just buy something else, because it would cost too much to have it done even by an independent mechanic to justify given the low, low value of the vehicle. And its value is in turn low not just because of its age, but because of the expense in servicing it.
The average person would love to be driving something like this around now that it's been handed down from someone who could afford to absorb the expense of its initial depreciation, but they can't afford the maintenance to keep it from disintegrating. It's two hundred bucks in crankcase vent breather hoses I worked around with silicone hose and a right angle fitting, and thirty bucks for a little y-shaped vacuum hose I went ahead and bought, and the headrests don't go up and down because the drive flex cable jacket stretched over time due to heat cycling and has to be shortened and the rear sun shade has come unglued and is catching on the rear parcel shelf and the arm rests tend to crack and Audi would like a thousand dollars for one but you can often pick up a pair of them from the facelift model for a couple hundred and the list goes ever on and on.
I've been talking about Audi for a long while, but I also own a 1982 Mercedes-Benz 300SD (W126) and guess what? Mercedes is doing its level best to kill off the platform. You can get basically all the parts for cars which are older than the W126 from the Mercedes Classics parts program, but there are a number of parts for the W126 which you can no longer get new from anyone for any price. The primary example which is going to kill off these cars is the locks. Mercedes does not sell ignition locks at all any more, and an otherwise fully matched lock set will set you back painfully. No one is re-keying these locks or making fresh keys, either, but that doesn't really matter because while it had at the time the strongest column lock ever devised for a production auto, the lock itself is beyond flimsy. It also only took me about an hour and a half to figure out how to remove a completely failed and jammed lock and column locking mechanism from my car and then do it start to finis
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Current BMW models require the battery to be registered with the car before it will work. You can't just go down to your local auto parts store and get a new battery and swap out the old one in your garage. This holds true even if you get your battery from the BMW dealer.
I'm waiting for the day when BMW requires only bmw approved/certified sockets to be used.
Libertarians believe that companies that oppress users will fail in the marketplace.
A few thoughts:
1. They generally do fail -- just not in the time frame you would prefer.
2. I think you may have really meant "companies that oppress users to a far greater degree than they benefit them." I can quite comfortably predict that for any company of any size you might care to name there's a disproportionately vocal minority that has come up with something to whine about.
3. The specific situation we're talking about here is not simply a company oppressing users in a vacuum, but doing so using the cudgels of overbearing legislation (DMCA) and court precedent (EULAs). That's about as anti-libertarian as you can get.
Uhh, no. Socialist Libertarianism is a thing. Americans have defined Libertarianism as radical anarchist capitalism. There is no necessity for libertarianism to be tied to capitalism.
There's just no actual left in the US, the US version of the left is just pro-capitalist vs ultra-capitalist on the right.
Obviously, if someone makes a modification to equipment that results in harm, the person who made the modification is liable. There's no need for a law against making modifications to address this.
what about renting = the landlord pays for service and upkeep?
Will they be so willing to say you are just renting the software?
When a major vendor fucks up and pisses off their customers, that's a chance for smarter competitors to eat their lunch. There must be at least a dozen companies, from Toyota to Caterpillar, who could step in here and serve this market.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Actually very few farmers own their own tractors any. At least the high end models. There almost all leased. They are simply to expensive to purchase outright.
I have recently been doing research on a small sub compact tractor and Deere quickly was dropped from my list of candidates for this reason and for the DPF Diesel Particulate Filter issues. Deere is also very proprietary with everything they do that logo will hold you hostage.
I am seriously looking at Mahindra, simpler more tried and true older school design. But Mahindra still has some of the electronics issues. But NO DPF on the Mahindra and it is the only tractor in the U.S. that does not have a DPF or require diesel juice etc for the Mahindra MCRD engine to make tier IV compliance.
Most of the smaller Deeres are repackaged Yanmar tractors anyway.
I have a friend in southern Illinois who's family has been farming for generations his father is in his late 80's and still going strong. They refuse to buy anything with a Deere logo on it. They buy all their equipment at auction and rebuild it over the winter months if they cant strip it rebuild it and use what ever parts they want hey wont buy it. Some of the equipment they are using is ancient and still going strong. Cast iron lasts just maintain it, oil it and it will go on and on almost for ever. Deere along with apple and some others have spent millions to fight right to repair legislation.
when you sign an agreement that says you sign away your rights, that doesn't necessarily mean you actually have signed away your rights.
Technically true, but unless you have a large pile of cash sitting around in order to make your case in court, then this doesn't mean a thing.
It's the same in the US, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act says that companies cannot invalidate your warranty for using 3rd party parts.
Enigma
The VW case isn't really relevant -- that was VW engaging in fraud. The JD issue is not about fraud (in the legal sense).
You arguing to the wind. You're either with their party or your not. Political tribalism is everything that's wrong with this country, and it's precisely why we need to break the 2 party system in this country.
Every aspect of the engine and transmission is computer controlled in high end tractors. The biggest reason this is an issue is because farmers are often working with windows of opportunity of days, a few hours can be the difference between getting a crop in the ground before it rains or having to wait for a couple weeks. These guys are spending a half a million dollars for a machine that might only get a 100 hours on the clock each year, waiting for an authorized tech for an hour cost $5,000.00 in lost usage.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
The fact that some people make stupid modifications to their equipment is not an argument in favor of JD's stance. It would only be an argument in favor of voiding the warranty.
If I buy a piece of equipment, I have every right to abuse or destroy it in any manner I desire. The OEM should have no ability to stop me.
My 2013-era Lenovo T430 laptop limits the mini-PCIe WiFi cards that it accepts to a short white-list of allowed models. I would never have bought this machine if I had fully appreciated that restriction at the time. I would gladly modify the hardware and software of this laptop to remove that restriction, but considering the time and difficulty, it is just much easier to just never buy a Lenovo product again.
I'd imagine no-one would want to buy a used tractor with these restrictions - hell, reselling one may well be against the licensing agreement.
A search engine indicates that New Holland seem to have a similar market share to John Deere, and that there are several other smaller manufacturers. Why would anyone buy John Deere under these circumstances?
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
There are basically autonomous tractors now and John Deere makes some that use differential GPS for navigation. As far as the rest of the tractor goes you are correct in that the cabs are starting to resemble aircraft cockpits with all sorts of monitoring and controls. It isn't like we are talking about the old John Deere Model D any more when it comes to tractors. You also left out the modern computer control of the engine and transmission that is found in every modern passenger vehicle that greatly improves the efficiency of a tractor as well.
Time to offend someone
The 1980s called, they want your American beer meme back.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Unless GPS satellites will helpfully relay John Deere kill signals, it's a little hard to see how the kill switch is going to work.
The people who buy these tractors are likely buying them for a related feature also offered by John Deere.
Time to offend someone
The word of the day is: "Neoliberal." Means something completely different from "liberal" and you will note that the entire US political system operates on neoliberal guiding principles -- they just pretend not to. Read Shock Doctrine for an excellent introduction. Another word that applies here to John Deere is "rentseeking."
Let me recommend a book : "Neoliberal economists must die!" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00H...
I admit it's been a while since I was in the US (since the TSA idiocy started to spread like cancer, to be exact), but I sure hope you don't consider Bud or Miller "beer".
The part of me that's Bavarian would like a word with you if you do!
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
The high end tractors they are really talking about are only available from 2 manufacturers. Modern Farmers are going to pull a chisel point plow, Disk Rippers, Clump busters and a cultipacker 60 feet wide in one pass over 5,000 acres, with a tractor that has 500 drawbar HP; next day pull a planter 120 feet wide.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
I disagree. While you do point out the very extremes, in my view there are very few moderates in this country. Most camps really are very extreme. It's an "alien concept" because moderates are so rare, and most people have allowed their camp's de-facto leaders to actually set their opinions. I've seen people I know go from pretty reasonable positions and opinions to very extreme ones (usually conservative) in the space of a few short years, because that's how the leaders in their chosen camp have gone.
So I think it's wrong to call these sides "loonie fringe groups"; they may have started out that way, but the bulk of the population has adopted these positions.
that won't allow you to fix their tractors.
Not sure if it is the case in the US, but where I live, I can not sign away my rights to file a lawsuit if I wanted to and my life depended on it.
"Be he SAID he wouldn't sue." would be laughed at so hard in court and would make you guilty almost by default.
Most countries including the US has laws against fake legalise that is intended to scare other people away from suing. This is actually illegal almost everywhere, it is just not enforced, and the lack of enforcement is building precedence.
Nope. If you disagree, you're free to take it up in court with John Deere/Microsoft/etc. Good luck with that.
The better alternative is to simply not buy from these companies.
And then just at the moment BigCorp starts to loose [sic], they settle out of court.
Settlements are voluntary and must be accepted by both sides. If the plaintiff doesn't want to settle there isn't anything BigCorp can do about it.
To me, out of court settlements should not mean that the case should be dropped.
What else would it mean? A settlement is nothing more or less than an agreement to drop the case in exchange for some compensation. You could prohibit settlements entirely, but it makes no sense to have an out-of-court settlement where the court continues to hear the case. Even prohibiting settlement would be somewhat problematic since the court relies on the plaintiff to argue their side of the case convincingly—it doesn't really make sense to punish a plaintiff for withdrawing their claims in response to a better offer by the defendant, and the enforcement necessary to prevent the plaintiff from deliberately losing would be difficult at best. Ultimately the court is there to see to it that disagreements are resolved, not to create new ones. If the plaintiff and defendant can resolve their issues on their own with an out-of-court settlement, why should the court interfere?
"The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
VW was engaging in behavior that cheated emissions regulations.
John Deere is mandated by the EPA to lock down their software so that throttle jockey Farmers can't do the same thing. The same guys that were cutting their catalytic converters off their cars in the 70s would be doing the same thing now days with the DPF and SCR systems.
If John Deere didn't make it reasonably difficult for the average user to change their software they would be held liable by the EPA. In terms of pollution there isn't much difference between VW cheating a test and a rogue farmer installing some high horse power/DPF delete firmware on his tractor.
I like their description on that web page: "No computers".
Have gnu, will travel.
As a more-or less moderate, I've also noticed that when you express an opinion, neither side/wing takes much notice of when you agree with them, instead they focus heavily on the part that you disagree with them on, even if it's a side you to tend to lean towards more often. There's no compromise, no bridging the gap, instead of finding common ground with everyone, being an independent or moderate today just alienates you from everyone who isn't. Look at the crap Tomi Lahren is catching for saying she's for pro choice, for example, or the flak that Jim Webb has taken from his own party lately. Both parties have become a rigid, close-minded, inadaptable cult.
Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
but it is ammunition to draw out a case until you run out of money, or discourage you from starting a case in the first place
Yeap
Why aren't tractors from China that aren't encumbered by Deere IP available? What does "Deere Do" that Chinese tractors don't? Have tractors really come SO FAR in ~18 years that there's no viable US market for tractors that are built entirely from designs whose patents all expired?
I mean, do Deere tractors have some kind of semi-autonomous operation, so they can run in perfectly straight lines at precise distances and do something in 300 minutes and 40 passes that might otherwise have taken 500 minutes and 60 overlapping passes? Does their holy software provide some kind of real value to users (besides "allowing them to operate"), or is it literally just DRM?
As in don Camillo movie By the way Russian tractors made nowadays are nice: website.
Don't sign it. If enough farmers refused, JD would be unable to sell their shit. Unless you're suggesting they were forced to sign at gun-point.
Somalia is libertarian
Is it easier to spew such bullshit, retarded strawman lines with a straight face when you're logged-in as AC?
Speaking from experience; they do this because a large portion of their profits are made in repairs.
Fuck me; never would've guessed...
Enforcement of legal contracts is one of the few "legitimate" areas for the Government to be involved in, according to most Libertarian types I have spoken with. The proper role for the Government and courts is to act as the armed enforcement agents for the corporations.
Remember "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters"? Help make it a reality again! http://soylentnews.org
In 2012, 75% of the 2 million farms in the US produced a paltry three percent of total revenue. In fact, their average annual income was less than $40k per farm, and most of that was from "non-farm" income, like subsidies, retirement income, etc. The dismal data is here.
John Deere couldn't care less about those farmers -- the money obviously lies elsewhere. And exactly where is that? In the three percent of farms (classed "large" or "very large" by the US Dept of Agriculture) that accounted for a whopping 52 percent of all production and 66.4% of agricultural revenue in the US.
So -- John Deere isn't going to worry about a bunch of hayseeds hacking their tractors -- they are not a significant revenue source now, and based on concentration trends in the US agriculture market, they are going to disappear entirely.
Marx was right about one thing -- owning the means of production (he called it "tools"; we call it hardware, now) is the key to capitalist success, and in a largely mechanized and automated industry like agriculture, that means owning the software, and through it, the hardware. John Deere has apparently grokked it rightly, as well.
It's bad when you have to jailbreak your tractor. Then again, John Deere is just the Eacalade version of a Yukon in the tractor world; they're both the same under the hood. People often use collective pride to mask mass stupidity. "Proudly Made in the USA" I guess applies here. If this keeps up, Japan and Germany will just start making better products like they did in the 70s and 80s. Your parents called it junk, but it really wasn't.
And I don't give a fuck whether you have a coat hanger party or whether you sing "every sperm is sacred", where do I stand now?
You see, the only agendas that are "controversial" in the US are the ones that have exactly zero impact on anything but can be blown out of proportion, hyped and emotionalized. From abortion to gun laws to drug use. None of them has ANY reasonable impact on the life of the average person, but judging from the time spent discussing them (sorry: ranting about them, nobody discusses anything in "discussions"), you'd think the US has no other problems.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
might want to add HP to the list of laptops not to buy.
This JD/right to repair stuff has been coming up a lot lately on tech message boards, and I've asked the same question. The response seems to be that farmers are emotionally tied to a particular "color" of farm equipment, and refuse to buy anything else, much like some people always buy Fords or Chevys.
So basically they refuse to look at alternatives and whine that their chosen vendor keeps screwing them over.
Another response is that the dealers in their area only sell JD.
You think? Actually, most people fall into the moderate spectrum. It's just the fringe loonies that are VERY vocal about their position. And with the internet, you get to hear from them a lot more than you used to.
If anything, you have people who move towards the extreme side of their political stance because they feel that they can only choose between that loonie and the one that is even more alien to their point of view. But I highly doubt that the average Christian feels represented by the Westboros, or that the average liberal feels comfortable to rally behind the "kill all white men" battle cry.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I hope you're just trolling. This millennial/cultural willingness to submit to authority is one of the scariest aspects of things like this.
The reason the marketplace doesn't work and that stuff like this happens is because of government regulations. The DMCA, copyright forever and patents for everything are government things that are used to manage the people for corporation benefits. In a completely libertarian environment John Deere would never think to try something like this because it would be suicide. People who think that government can solve all their problems are the slow learners. In this issue as with most government IS the problem.
If the JD tractors have firmware that cheats emissions tests and pollutes like crazy in the field the EPA would come down hard on them.
No, it won't. Trump will make sure of that. A year ago, you would have been correct.
Yes, because your opinion isn't "pure" enough. It's only acceptable if you fully support us, because only then we can trust you.
Why do I feel more and more like the US politics is turning into something like a cult?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
The more ordinary Mercedes and Audi models are not especially expensive to maintain and they have a well-deserved reputation for high durability and reliability.
Yes, but they're just cars. If you take all the fancy kit out, all cars are at least decent. At least, anything you can buy in the USA. We're talking about depreciation of luxury cars, and their reliability or lack thereof.
There is something that makes ordinary Mercedes and Audi models expensive to maintain, though; the dealer's attitude towards parts prices. There are only a couple of Audi dealers in the entire country that do not rape you on parts orders, for example. For new vehicles, for which the replacement parts are not available through the aftermarket, this is a significant concern.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
For a farmer a tractor is a very big investment and much of their success as a farmer is riding on it (sorry for the pun).
So I don't think a sane farmer will want to do anything to it that would ruin it.
Sure you allways will find some counter examples, like some people that first by a Mercedes S class and then run into all kind of issues with it because they are too cheap to have it properly maintained.
BTW one could make the same reasoning for normal cars: "Gee I'm fed up with all those cars comming in for repairs under waranty. From now on if you as much as change the oil yourself: that's it. Your on your own".
Farmers are used to being somewhat self-reliant in the physical sense. Farmers are used to doing a fair amount of physical work. The very notion of of being required to play this kind of money for something intangible offends the senses, especially when the machine itself already cost a half a million dollars to purchase.
I agree with the farmers. It is stupid to require software activation to use hardware that one owns, especially when the software activation is required to use features that one has already paid for.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
Then JD should have the owner sign an agreement that says JD not responsible for repairs/accidents due to non-JD service.
They don't need any such agreement. They already have a federal law that says this: the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975. It basically says that for repairing or maintaining your car (or other consumer good), you're allowed to use 3rd-party repair parts and have an independent mechanic (or yourself) do it, unless the manufacturer does all this stuff for free for you, and that they can't "void" your warranty because of this, but that they *can* refuse warranty claims that are actually caused by the non-OEM part or repair.
Maybe there needs to be a law.
There is, the one I just pointed out. Somehow, after 42 years, everyone's forgotten about it even though almost everyone in America drives a car and is affected by it. Honestly, even on car-related message boards, full of car enthusiasts, I see this come up constantly, with people asking "will my warranty be void if I don't take my car to the dealer to change the oil?"
Ok. So you want to replace the wheels on your car you purchased 3 years ago for 350,000. If you do, it will not start. Not unless you call up your dealer and have a guy reactivate your car.
Once every 3 years isn't bad. Donate 250 dollars.
But what if you wanted to get home? What if it was a flat tire. Or a loose wire? See this is were it starts to suck. Your time and money. What if you don't finish your drive to work, you lose an account?
Now tractors have many issues.
Or a libertarian think tank:
http://www.independent.org/new...
That's it.
A lot of people don't realize that click-through agreements are mostly unenforceable because they're almost all one-sided contracts.
When you purchase a product, it's your to use. This right is enshrined in all kinds of law in both the US and Canada.
So "click OK to agree to the EULA/contract" is attempting to impose restriction without commensurate compensation. You already have the right to use the software, regardless of whether or not you click OK, so the EULA is not providing you any compensation. That makes it invalid, except when tied to services that you don't own.
But I'd be happy to see a new law introduced (in Canada, at least) that explicitly outlaws EULAs for everything non-service related, and severe restrictions on service agreements as well.
Hell, make onerous service contract agreements themselves taxable assets.
A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
Here in America, where the only German cars we get are high-end Mercedes, BMWs, Audis, and the only economical German cars are butt-ugly (and highly polluting) VWs made in Mexico, from everything I've read German cars are not all that reliable, and worse are specifically engineered to be impossible for you to work on them, and have atrociously expensive parts and service. One guy I knew had a BMW 2-3 years old that somehow developed suspension trouble and needed $1500 in repairs for it. An economical Japanese car is easy for you to do most maintenance and simple repairs in your garage and the parts are cheap.
Japanese cars are the ones you get if you want reliability and relatively inexpensive parts and service (best are the Japanese cars made in Japan). And don't whine about me comparing a $18-30k Honda or Toyota or Mazda or Subaru to a $40-90k BMW; those are the choices we get here.
If you modify the tractor in a way that is unsupported by the manufacturer, you void the warranty and John Deere is released from responsibility. It's not at all unlike your TV, or your cell phone, or millions of other products on the market.
The Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 disagrees with you. Go read it.
The liberals (at least here in the USA) aren't the ones worshiping the "invisible hand", those are the libertarians.
I'd research alternatives to John Deere. I think there are actually some, right? If there are, I'd go to the Deere dealers first. I'd take my time, chat up the sales guy, get all the way to what looks like a closed sale. Then just as I'm about to sign I'd back out and tell him why. Waste their sales guy's time, and tell all your buddies to do it too.
If all of the companies are pulling this shit, it might be time for another tractorcade like we had in the 70s. Block the Beltway and turn up the turf on the Mall like they did back then. Maybe that'll get their attention.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Actually, most people fall into the moderate spectrum. It's just the fringe loonies that are VERY vocal about their position. And with the internet, you get to hear from them a lot more than you used to.
I'm sorry, that's just not what I'm seeing, at least on the conservative side. I don't see it on the liberal side; those people seem reasonable to me, but then again I don't hang out with college-aged people, and everything I'm reading about that crowd is pretty scary. On the conservative side, I'm seeing friends and family members I've known a long time buy into the stupidest crap straight out of right-wing news. This wasn't a thing 5+ and certainly 10+ years ago; it's all new thanks to the alt-right Facebook groups and news sites. Middle-aged people who normally are against the war on drugs and are pot smokers are big fans of Trump and Sessions; it's an utterly amazing display of cognitive dissonance. When pressed, they really think that Sessions will "come around" on the drugs issue even though all evidence is that he's a hard-line "tough on crime" and anti-drug (esp. anti-pot) ideologue. People who are highly religious are all for new right-wing/Trumpist policies like repealing Obamacare and shrinking Medicaid which people in their own families rely on to have healthcare. In fact, it's utterly amazing how the Christian conservatives/evangelicals have rallied behind Trump, someone who is obviously only religious about being greedy. AFAICT, a lot of this comes from a reaction against society's growing acceptance of homosexuality, and also against immigration. For some, it seems that nothing is more important than "getting rid of the Mexicans", and they're happy to sacrifice all their civil liberties and freedoms for this cause.
Someone with deep pockets (perhaps a union of farmers all working together?) should fund a lawsuit suing John Deere for violating the first sale doctrine. Carry it forward through all the appeals John Deere Lawyers will launch, until the John Deere company has been found guilty in all instances and exhausted all their appeals... as they will be, unless they buy a lot of Judges.
One line that was up on Wiki and the meaning repeated elsewhere states:
The federal minimum standards for full warranties are waived if the warrantor can show that the problem associated with a warranted consumer product was caused by damage while in the possession of the consumer, or by unreasonable use, including a failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance.
In other words if you disassemble the product, place new/different/altered components on it, and it can be determined that those new/different/altered components caused the product to fail, then the manufacturer is not liable to repair it under warranty.
"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
To me that read more like no government is better than about the most corrupt shitty government one could come up with. Maybe just disposing of the entire North Korean government and military leaders and doing nothing else would improve that country too.
Time to offend someone
Part of the reputation for things going wrong in luxury cars is due to there simply being a lot more *to* go wrong, as well as features being implemented in such cars while they were still cutting edge tech (by the time a feature makes it down into lowend cars its been refined over years)...
Another thing worth considering is cost/availability of parts... Jaguar parts are easy to source in the UK and relatively cheap, but in other countries they can be difficult to find and expensive for instance.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
OH goodness no.
Sure they still sell a LOT of the Bud type beer, but there are TONS of independent, smaller and craft brewers around the US.
Examples:
Abita Beer
NOLA Brewery
Second Line Brewing
Lazy Magnolia
Shiner Beer
And here's a wiki media of the rest of the LA breweries here down south....
Linky
The Shiner one is in TX..but those listed are just a very FEW of the many in my immediate area...and each area on the US has their own good breweries. Some have product that is only available locally, but others are nationwide.
It's been a couple of decades since you had to drink crappy beer in the US.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
I think the "warranty voided" argument is a bit of a myth.
In the US, this situation has come up many times, and if a vendor offers a warranty it has to meet the legal standards of the Magnusonâ"Moss Warranty Act.
For example, the vendor has to prove that user mods actually caused a problem.
Yes, but that's not at all what you said before. You claimed that modifying the tractor would "void the warranty". That is a complete lie. The mfgr cannot "void the warranty", they can only refuse to honor a warranty if the problem is shown to be caused by damage caused by the end-user, as the law clearly states.
Part of the reputation for things going wrong in luxury cars is due to there simply being a lot more *to* go wrong,
That's why I bought the 300SD, and it's also why I bought the A8. The 300SD is as dead-nuts simple as it is possible for an S-Class to be. It has none of the fancy stuff they put on the gasoline models, except a sunroof. It does use advanced materials — it's got Aluminum hood and trunk lids, and it made early use of composite bumper pieces. This was a design completed in 1978! But it has extremely advanced driving characteristics for its age, due to the combination of its multilink front suspension and semi-trailing arm rear that provides controlled toe in response to body roll. When the springs and bushings are in good condition, the whole car completely cooperates with the driver even when pushing it past its limits. Without going into a lot of detail, the A8 is as close as you can get in a more modern luxobarge that has a slushbox, and there's a six-speed manual transmission available for it unlike, for the Mercedes. The AWD is based on a mechanical center diff, for example.
Another thing worth considering is cost/availability of parts...
That's why the W126 300SD has to go, and the D2 A8 is incoming. You can actually get parts for the A8. In fact, my 1998 is a "parts car" that I got for $300 which, except for the failed transmission, is actually nicer than my 1997 for which I paid... more. I hope to recoup some of the costs there by selling some of the more valuable parts from the 1997. The nineties were truly a time at which Audi really only sold one car but in different sizes, and there is a lot of sharing between the A4, A6, A8, and even the VW Passat. (Wikipedia claims that the B3 Passat was a completely distinct design which does not share parts with Audi models. Nope.)
Jaguar parts are easy to source in the UK and relatively cheap, but in other countries they can be difficult to find and expensive for instance.
For large parts, that's a problem. For small ones, I can reasonably source parts from the UK or Germany. I've done both, though I'm not sure I've done both in the course of working on the Audi. I certainly have for the Mercedes.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Exactly. The Libertarian party seems to have forgotten all about being against corporate charters. And certainly none of the few that actually get into office have even attempted to do away with prescriptions or any sort of licensing for anything. When is the last time a big L Libertarian has supported piercing the corporate veil or a class action lawsuit?
Well what is a warranty? It's a promise by the manufacturer to repair or replace equipment if it fails. If you modify the equipment and it fails because of your modification, they are not liable for the failure and not held responsible for the repairs. Right? You make modifications that cause a failure then it's no longer their problem.
I will concede though that often manufacturers will claim that any modification releases them from all responsibility, regardless whether that modification has any impact whatsoever on whatever failures might have or may eventually occur. That's outside the bounds in my mind, and the law you pointed to would seem to support the notion.
Obviously there are circumstances that could lean the "right" decision to one side of the fence or the other.
"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
Your crop is ready to harvest and your tractor won't start, not because there is any technical problem with the tractor but a software time bomb that you must then pay the dealer many hundreds of dollars to re-enable the software so you can use your tractor.
This is blackmail in my books.
What if you just let a 13 year old do the plowing for you ?
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
So you are a beer snob. Budweiser are excellent thirst quenchers on a hot summer day, works better than water IMHO and it tastes somewhat like beer too.
Da A/C
When you say "void the warranty", that implies that the mfgr is able to refuse ALL warranty claims, and that the product is no longer covered by any warranty. This is flatly illegal.
What mfgrs *can* do is refuse to honor the warranty for specific claims when they can prove that the customer caused the problem in the first place, such as with a shoddy repair or faulty part.
So if you change your own oil and strip out the drain bolt and the oil all leaks out and your engine seizes, the mfgr does not have to repair your engine. But if you change your own wiper blades with Anco blades from Walmart, they are not allowed to refuse to fix your car when the engine fails, because the wiper blades have nothing to do with the engine. If you change your own oil and the brakes fail, again they cannot refuse to fix it. If you change your own brake pads and the brakes fail, they still cannot refuse to fix it unless they can reasonably prove that you did something wrong or used a bad part. General maintenance/consumable things like oil/filters, brake pads have lots of aftermarket support so it's not easy to prove that the Fram/Purolator/Bosch filter caused your engine problem.
Modifying the whitelist isn't terribly difficult. Will require 1-2 hours. You need a SOIC8 clip and a device that can flash over SPI, such as a Bus Pirate or Raspberry Pi. Naturally, knowing how to setup either will require more time. For the T430 you will need to disassemble. Also, I recommend keeping it. It's well supported by security minded modders, fairly speedy, and almost all of the bad shit can be disabled/removed, where as with newer models that is far more difficult.
I completely agree with paragraph's 1-3. But I used to be a street thug, went to prison did my time changed my life. My father smoked crack until I was 14, I had my own issues with drugs. I currently only smoke weed and take Kratom for pain at work so I can do what I need to to provide for my family. Even after all of that, I may not be rich or ever be rich. I'm working class and proud of that. That being said, 4 years after I got out of prison I am now one of the most highly skilled and requested Electrician/Low Voltage tech's in Las Vegas. most people would never know I had ever been to prison unless i had my shirt off. So when people play that poor me card, it really upsets me. I have drug myself out of the mud to be what I am. Its something you have to learn to do for yourself or you will never be shit.
Budweiser is.
But I doubt that's what you meant.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Green Screen Of Death GSOD
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
I believe abortion should be legal until the 75th trimester. Either parent. Quick way out of child support payments.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Pot is over. Even when the feds try to enforce their pot laws, they can't find juries to convict. We saw this under Obama. Raids on legal pot businesses went up, but they basically can't get convictions.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Rand wrote one thing worth reading: 'We the Living'. It's not long and is the most accurate assessment of marxism ever written.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Just try and buy parts for an older German Car. Last year I brought my Father's 1969 Mercedes 280 SL "Pagoda" back to life. One brake shoe, $140. Rubber brake line, $80 each. Calipers $325 per wheel. Fuel Pump $450. Working on that car convinced me that Germans have really long arms and very small hands. A simple job - like replacing the fuel filter, or replacing the points - took hours. The fuel filter could not be done without two people, one under the car and one above.
Contrast that to my 1964 1/2 Mustang where a set of brake shoes is $34.99.... A fuel pump is $41.99... And this isn't just because people are crazy about old Mustangs, other old American cars have similar parts prices unless the are Packards, Auburns, etc.
Murphy was an optimist
Tastes like alka seltzer. But it's hardly unique, the whole world has crap beers. Even Germany: Warsteiner.
Don't even get me started on the Mexicans, Aussies or Canadians. There are many nations with worse beer than America, even before all the microbreweries. And Guinness, the world's most overrated beer, no worse stout on the planet. Watney's Red Barrel? Piss is everywhere. Some people like it, no accounting for taste.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
300SD were eurotaxis. They were built for a market that puts a million miles on a vehicle, but doesn't get emotional about keeping it going past its economic life.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
New VWs (VW/Porsche/Audi) are _terrible_ cars. Even my German relatives have them on the 'never again' list, much as it pained them to get there.
The first step to replace a brake master cylinder on a new 'bug': Remove front bumper...no joke. Like the old joke about British cars. (To replace the headlight, first remove the back bumper, disassemble going forward until you reach the headlamp...)
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Hmmm... very interesting. However, this doesn't help much with civil asset forfeiture, which Sessions is a *huge* fan of. So they'll just start stealing^Wseizing the property of anyone caught with pot.
Pot is the #1 cash crop in most states that have made it legal. The feds can't steal money from that stream fast enough to make any difference.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
If they make it illegal, won't that suddenly make it not the #1 cash crop (at least not one that gets tax money into the state's coffers)? I'm not saying that banning it again (or rather, taking up anti-pot enforcement in a big new way) is a sensible idea, I think we're in violent agreement here, but sensibility hasn't stopped many people from doing many stupid things (such as electing Trump), because many people just aren't sensible. Plus, Sessions' anti-pot cronies stand to make a lot of money through vigorous anti-pot enforcement. Anyway, back to CAF: if they start stealing everything that pot owners and dealers have, that would quickly put a damper on things I think. What'd be interesting, however, is if the state governments turned on them and started arresting the federal agents for theft, and states started really rebelling legally against the federal government. It could get pretty ugly.
The DEA doesn't have the budget. The states (CA anyway) have already passed laws making it illegal to spend state money enforcing federal laws when state and federal laws conflict. County prosecutors that cooperate with the DEA are forced (by the voters) to get honest jobs.
The federal government's stance on banking for pot trades hasn't helped. It's still largely a cash business and pot growers/dealers are essentially volunteering to pay taxes on revenue, while maintaining old school money laundering operations.
This last election was truly giant douche vs. turd sandwich. The only sensible option was voting 3rd party.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
300SD were eurotaxis. They were built for a market that puts a million miles on a vehicle, but doesn't get emotional about keeping it going past its economic life.
300SDs were extremely popular in the USA. That's why there are still so many of them running around in spite of the fact that the body is expensive to maintain. It's only relatively recently that most parts became relatively affordable, via eBay. You used to have to just pay exorbitant prices at dealers. But those parts you can't get are a serious problem. The "Febi-Bilstein" ignition lock I had to buy for my 300SD feels like garbage. I have a distinct feeling it is actually neither Febi nor Bilstein, but it's what is available.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I believe, something like that has already been done by Marcin Jakubowski and the Civilization starter kit, see the Ted presentation.
We have an election system that not only promotes tribalism, it promotes a duality: you are either the majority party, the minority party, or a rounding error. Which party is the majority just rotates every 6-8 years. The last time a major party fell out or was replaced was over a century ago, and it's only been the makeup of each that has changed since.
This has been a problem for almost as long as this country has held elections. Parties formed shortly after the country did, States, with few exceptions, all moved to first-past-the-post, winner-take-all based on the popular vote for the Electoral College. Only now is ranked/preferential voting being applied on a wide level: Maine voted it in with this last election. I'd like to say that other states will follow their lead, but Maine (and Nebraska, odd bed-fellows) has had Congressional District Method for the EC for a few decades now but no other states have picked up on it.
In short, American politics is black and white because Americans in general don't care enough to make gray options viable (and the elite for both major parties are all too happy to stay mum on the ability to do so.) I feel the Founding Fathers could have done more to stunt or blunt this, our election system being one of their few major failures (and one of the even fewer that has gone uncorrected.)
You might probably notice if you compare our two examples that in yours, one of the two "opinions" presented is demonstrably false.
That's not usually the case in matters where compromises do happen.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Well the fact that I haven't done hard drugs in 10 years proves you're a moron and had no idea what addiction actually is.