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'Extreme Vetting' Would Require Visitors To US To Share Contacts, Passwords (theguardian.com)
According to the Wall Street Journal, the Trump administration is considering whether or not to deploy "extreme vetting" practices at airports around the world, which could force tourists from Britain and other countries visiting the U.S. to reveal their mobile phone contacts, social media passwords and financial data. "Travelers who want to enter the U.S. could also face questioning over their ideology, as Washington moves away from a default position of allowing people in to a more skeptical approach to visitors," reports The Guardian. From the report: Trump made the "extreme vetting" of foreign nationals to combat terrorism a major theme of his presidential election campaign. But his executive order imposing a travel ban on several Muslim-majority countries has twice been blocked in court. Media reports suggest it has already hurt the tourism industry. The changes might include visitors from the 38 countries -- the UK, France, Australia and Japan among them -- that participate in the visa waiver program, which requires adherence to strict U.S. standards in data sharing, passport control and other factors, one senior official told the Journal. This could require people to hand over their phones so officials can study their stored contacts and possibly other information. The aim is to "figure out who you are communicating with," a senior Department of Homeland Security official was quoted as saying. "What you can get on the average person's phone can be invaluable." A second change would ask applicants for their social media handles and passwords, so that officials could see information posted privately in addition to public posts, the Journal said. The Journal report said the DHS official working on the review said questions under consideration included whether visa applicants believe in so-called honor killings, how they view the treatment of women in society, whether they value the "sanctity of human life" and who they view as a legitimate target in a military operation.
How many more agents to do this job? Where do you hold a planeload of passengers waiting their turn? Meanwhile their baggage remains unclaimed.
Totally insane idea.
The USA has lost its damn mind.
Interesting, article been up for several minutes and nobody wants to comment. Perhaps everyone is getting smart and have deleted their Facebook and Internets?
They could just ship their phones through a shipping company before coming to the US.
People will just stop coming to the U.S., or doing business there. Problem solved.
Sharing your password is against the ToS of every single social media platform out there, including but not limited to Facebook, Twitter, every forum ever, etc. Share your password to your account when you go to the US and kiss that account goodbye.
And that list? Yes, I believe there are honor killings (DING). I believe women need more power in society (DING from any anti-feminist) or I believe genders are not equal because each gender has strengths and weaknesses different from each other (DING from a lot of people). I do not value the "sanctity of human life" in that I believe assisted suicide, under a lot of scrutiny and supervision, should be legal - we have mortally sick pets put down to spare them the suffering, but grandma HAS to be kept alive no matter what! I also believe abortion should not be illegal, so that's TWO dings in one question.
Just ... what are they expecting with this? HONESTY? Or a well-rehearsed regurgitation of the correct answers?
-=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
We can't even get Asshole M'Gunt to share his tax returns. Fuck that guy.
That should cut down the lines at many attractions.
The United States has done off the deep end. I will never be visiting such a douche bag country that would pull this shit. If the States wants less "Terrorists" then stop pissing every one off. Stop stealing from every one and killing innocent people.
El Americo esta muy bweno now-o.
Maybe the new administration can't spell Reciprocity. All US Tourists strip-searched as they arrive at Heathrow? A complete lack of foreign tourists and a drop in all foreign business for US firms? High tariffs on all US goods sent to customers overseas? Since 30% of US commerce is international, that could bring the unemployment well rate over 20%, much like the Great Depression. We could see people camped out under bridges in Trumpvilles, cooking beans over small fires. The world has a way of responding in kind.
No in the past the USA would just refuse to extradite people to face terrorist charges to European countries. I know for certain this applied to both the UK and France, and included terrorists who where Muslim.
Heck the USA would even allow terrorist organizations to fund raise in the USA!!! When it comes to terrorists the USA can just fuck right off.
Far more people have died in the UK from terrorists that the USA harboured and allowed to fund raise than have from any Islamist's terrorists, but don't let facts get in the way of your bigoted viewpoint.
"Land of the free, home of the BRAVE"? NOT! Brave people don't fear their world, and free people don't ask others to give up their freedom...
Sooner or later, other countries, tired of having their citizens harassed, will return the compliment when visitors to the US get to their airports.
Why are you amazed? The whole point of the waiver program isn't to just let everyone in with no waiver - in fact it's directly the opposite, it lets people apply to be granted easier access to the US - by *declaring and presenting yourself in advance* you are then able to be further vetted by the US through whatever means they wish, and with ample time to do so. But then again, your third-world comment is particularly telling when it comes to the perspectives you hold.
Right, no more trrists for 'Murica. And by trrists, of course I mean tourists. So many nicer places to visit anyway!
Ezekiel 23:20
Most of this was already in place last year during the Obama administration. What is new now?
...authentication works!
US: Give us your password!
Me: Sure, it's 45sux
US: Hey, it's asking for a 2nd code...
Me: Oh, sorry, I'm on vacation, so I left my keyfob at home. No email or social media, I promised my wife. (Note: I'm in IT, and I've made that promise.)
Women in his own country, what chance does he respect women in different countries...
You can travel without a phone and never use social media.
Sure, but they can also turn around and send you packing if you "don't have a phone and refuse to disclose social media accounts". Unfortunately, they can escalate more than you can, once you have showed up here in person and are not a US citizen.
US citizen here. I'd recommend going somewhere else. This place is fucked. After 9/11 it went all-in on on making sure the terrorists won by giving our authoritarians free reign to run roughshod over the culture we used to have.
Canadians are nice. Well, mostly. You might give that a go.
Tourism is a $1.5 trillion industry in the US. I don't know what exactly the split is between domestic and foreign but foreign is definitely a significant chunk (one site claimed $21 billion from foreign tourists in April 2016) and if you're worried about trade deficits then that chunk is especially important.
There are already concerns that foreign tourism revenue is starting to dry up after Trump's election and the (attempted) Muslim bans. If it's actually put into effect this "extreme vetting" will only accelerate that process.
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Just like we do in Israel!
"According to the WSJ", not any Government policy we have seen. While Governments can, and often do, put out crap policies there are the occasional smart ones where experts have input. Most of us can come up with policies that have no requirements for passwords. Simply "add Govt Office as a friend", or "add inspector as a friend". From there, they could see all of your contacts, posts, etc..
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
Ah yes, but the IRA were good clean Christian terrorists, so it was totally okay to allow them to enter the US to evade arrest and raise money for the "struggle" (which amounted as often as not to blowing up informants and random people for effect).
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
The Taliban, Islamic State/Daesh, Al Shebob, Iran, etc, for achieving one of their major primary objectives: destroying American freedom. Now we're just another xenophobic shithole, like most of the rest of the world.
Up Next: Being jailed/disappeared/killed for criticizing the government, the abolition of non-state-run media outlets, and the declaration of an official State religion (in other words, repealing the First Amendment).
Seriously, let's put that guy through the wringer, see if he's qualified to enter the US.
I'm pretty sure he wasn't born in the country. Have YOU ever seen his birth certificate?
More and more of my (Canadian) friends and family have made the decision to cancel discretionary trips to and through the USA in recent months.
Most people I know who are are staying away aren't doing it because of Trump's EOs or new rules that are coming. The majority are caucasian Canadian citizens, so they'd breeze right in anyway.
It's more that many Canadians that I've talked to feel that discretionary travel to the US is tacit support for Trump and his Republicans. We realize it's a drop in the ocean, but it's the only tool we have.
My wife and her friends recently cancelled a 'girl's weekend' in Seattle. I have a cousin who recently made the decision to go to Cuba in May instead of the Hawaii trip she had planned. Other friends who cancelled a Disney trip. Still others who cancelled San Diego and went to Mexico.
I also know of several people here in Vancouver who booked trips to points south and east and specifically avoided (cheaper) US carriers so they could avoid transiting the USA. They instead transited YYZ, YUL and MEX.
None of these people are radical eco-hippie-lefties. Just average Canadians who have made the decision not the travel to or through the USA.
I know, I know, anecdotal, we don't need you socialist commie Canadians anyway, Trump rules, America's great, don't let the door hit us on the way out, blah blah blah, but nevertheless that's tens of thousands of dollars deflected away from the USA right there in my little sphere, within the last month or two.
And you wanted "free" stuff.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
that's what they're expecting. All of the folks you just described will get a pass if they come from Christian countries. At least, that's the plan. Whether it'll hold up in court or not is another matter. We used to have lots of laws/rules about this sort of discrimination where everybody's doing it but it's OK because they do it with a wink and a node and a dog whistle. But we've been chipping away at those protections for about 10 years now.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
You lot have been poking them with a stick for decades, to entirely predictable results.
It's just not us furriners saying that either.
I imagine the Tourism Lobby will have a dollar or two to ..er, I mean, thing or two to say about this.
Alternatively, can you imagine how we would react if the UK decided to do the same with US visitors?
Awk! Pieces of eight. Pieces of eight. Pieces of seven... ERROR: General Protection Fault. [Paroty Error.]
The cost to personal liberty, the flagrant unconstitutionality, and the chilling effect on US international relations and tourism aside, this is ALSO a bad idea because it will have zero effect on the real bad guys.
If you are a bad guy, why would you bring a phone loaded with contacts? Why would you provide a real, rather than a fake social media account? For a real bad guy, it is trivially easy to circumvent this new check. For the rest of us, it's a massive inconvenience, invasion of privacy, and an almost certain invitation to both systematic abuse and abuse by bad-apple agents.
(BTW, topic drift... I was quite surprised to see financial data disclosure requirements described as "new". Unlike the phone search and social media stuff, the financial data part is _not_ new. It's been a requirement for certain visa applicants for at least 40 years. It doesn't currently happen at the border, but rather at visa application time. Perhaps the reason it's listed as being new is because it now includes visa-waiver-program countries too?)
Yes. That's kind of the point.
Extreme vetting for the win!
Kneel Before Christ!
One way or another Trump will either resign or be removed from office quickly. In the mean time we need to stop all of his executive orders, budgets and laws from being passed as well as prepare methods for quick removal of any that manage to get through the obstruction that we will impose at every turn. One difficult issue will be whether to put Trump on trial for his numerous crimes that are now being exposed. These are not the fantasy crimes such as were claimed against Obama and Clinton but real, hard core crimes that may well include treason. The economic crimes alone are enough to put him in prison for life.
How will this stop anyone besides the absolute dumbest terrorists? Won't they just start lying?
Almost anyone can lie convincingly given enough practice. Look at Congress.
---
According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
Canada offers a decent alternative "Americanized tourist" experience.
It says "Tourists from Britain and other countries" then refers to paywall article. Anyone able read the full list of countries and post here?
None of the terrorists had come from those countries. Calling those judges SJW diminishes the power of the insult. It's like calling Trump a nazi. It's soon (already?) going to only mean "people we don't agree with politically." You're also not responding to the real argument for why they issued injunctions.
Reality is a slackware box running on a 386 tucked away in god's sock drawer.
This idea is completely retarded. When did we become the Soviet Union / East Germany? Papers please!
Mr. Trump, tear down that metaphorical wall, and join the 21st century. We don't have to live in constant fear of foreigners.
The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.
p.s. IMO the US should return to pre-9/11 airport screening. The US learned our lesson, and nothing like 9/11 will never happen again. Pre-9/11 we all thought "just keep your head down and you'll live." Now, every able bodied man and woman in the US will be willing to risk our lives to save hundreds on board or thousands on the ground, so there's zero chance that an airplane could be hijacked today.
I wouldn't expect judges to be Social Justice Warriors. Surely that's more of a position for Social Justice Paladins. Social Justice Warriors would be more likely in the military, or at least the police.
Social Justice Clerics of course would be in the church. Jesuits perhaps.
Social Justice Mages... probably researchers, working on renewable energy and the like.
Social Justice Bards... I'd imagine that there's not enough musical work for them, but they'd probably feel at home in the media.
Social Justice Rogues.. out on protests.
Social Justice Barbariasn... hmm... fighting internet trolls.
Social Justice Druids... out on some hippie commune.
Social Justice Sorcerers.... probably in the maker community.
Social Justice Rangers... forestry service?
Social Justice Warlocks... members of Anonymous maybe?
Social Justice Monks... actually, yeah, literal monks. Buddhist, not Christian.
Kneel Before Christ!
Given the high number of Murders/Prison population in the USA compared to other 1st world countries it would make just as much sense to bar US citizens from travelling to those countries.
But what is happening is that Tourists are now avoiding the USA and thats going to cost tens of thousands of jobs and billions of dollars in lost income.
Feel free to start a trade war, the US is only 4% of the worlds population and 20% of the worlds GDP.
Asia is where all the real growth is, China is the biggest economy and growing, US firms could see themselves locked out of the Asian market. "Friends" of the USA have seen how Trump treats them, countries if they have any sense will be planning on what to do if the US is no longer there as a trading partner. Sure its going to hurt for a wee while, but everyone will recover. It will open opportunities for the likes of Airbus and Boeing gets sidelined, it will open up opportunities for EU companies to replace Apple, Google, Facebook, Microsoft, HP, etc etc etc etc etc.
Peak USA was the 1960/1970s , it has been slowly slipping since then. Trump will simply increase the rate of fall.
So keep being scared, Keep being paranoid, Build your walls, alienate the rest of the world, the world will learn to get on just fine without the USA. We can go back to sane copyright laws, sane patent laws, sane gun laws , etc etc etc etc
Yep, our family has written off the USA as a place to visit (I have been about 6 times, family twice)
.
We are also encouraged at work not to go the Europe via the USA, or attend conferences/training in the USA, risks are too high.
Dropping tourist numbers is already removing billions from the US economy, and the fall is only going to accelerate
So just remember as you shout USA first, 96% of the worlds population and 80% of the worlds GDP is saying USA last.
The world has become a lost more accessible, countries have modernised , tourism is easier and cheaper than ever before, there are more flights to more destinations than ever before, so choosing "not the USA" is no longer a problem, people are missing out on less and less each year.
So ... you don't want our money?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
But they were the good kind of terrorist, the kind that buys weapons in the Us and only blows shit up outside the US.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Cuba did actually improve in about the same way the US deteriorated as a vacation destination.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Be glad they took that bullshit down. What do you think this would have accomplished, except piss off some people? Do you really believe someone hellbent on blowing shit up can't first move to a different country before flying to the US? For real?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I wouldn't expect judges to be Social Justice Warriors.
They are Social Justice Justices of course. It is sad to see enforcing The Constitution gets you called an SJW, but that term was silly from the start. I'm surprised they didn't say these judges were virtue signalling too.
Well you are certainly fucking up the global elites there big boy. I don't think Disney world Florida will be doing much business in future when the tourists can't get there anymore. Perhaps we should be vetting Americans - so many of them seem to be alt-right gun nuts it is hard to tell whether they are safe. Realistically the terrorists have won, a nationalist president has gone nuclear over fucking over foreigners for votes. The free world has started to look like that dystopian police state future that American movies have been previewing for years. Call yourselves the leaders of the free world, ha, more like an evil empire. Fortunately there is plenty going on in the rest of the world, this being the Far Eastern century for a start.
Facts are history now plebs have politics for religion on social media.
putting the effort and money into road safety or public health. A far better Return On Investment.
> ...when SJW Judges prevent you from doing common sense things like prohibiting people from countries most likely to harbor those who want to harm you.
What, like Saudi Arabia?
Because its better than where they were.
Perhaps you want to compare those figure to the millions who have recently ended up in Europe
They would prefer to been at home, but home is full of war, death and destruction.
We have a lot of Americans who have taken up citizenship in New Zealand, if its so good there why did they leave ?
Now YOU dont care, but the people whose job depends on tourists do, tour guides do, hotels do, airlines do, tourist attractions do.
Its not OUR attitude, its the US attitude that making the difference, and tourists are now voting with their wallets.
Tourism from abroad isn't a big money maker in the USA... Yea we make some $$ that way, but it's not a huge part of the economy.
Disney, for example, makes movies and has theme parks outside the USA, so the two they own in the USA might see a drop in attendance, but I'm willing to bet it won't be that much in the grand scheme of Disney's profits...
What does that mean? Is it the principle of not killing or something much more? Somehow I doubt that a question related to the general appreciation of medical research using stem cells should be on the questionnaire.
I was dismayed the last time I visited the United States, when after the indignity of being treated like a criminal by having my fingerprints taken for the first time, the border official said to me, "Now that wasn't such a big deal was it". Border officials have absolute power. Being on business, I was in no position to offer an alternative opinion and run the risk of being sent home.
Your tourism industry will be suffering. I stopped travelling for pleasure to the US long ago. If I should visit Canada for a holiday you can be sure I will travel via Auckland or Asia and not LA.
Fuck you guys, I'm tired of your shit.
With an attitude like that you wonder why we don't want you here. Just stay home. We don't care.
Your choice of words betrays your belief that the US is still the center of the universe. It is less and less so, and that's a shame.
A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
Probably because the US spent decades in their home countries destablizing their governments in an attempt to exert colonial control over the country's natural resources and labor.
We have people literally dying to come across our borders to get here. If the US is THAT bad, why are they coming?
You are mixing apples and oranges. The people dying to get to the US are dirt poor folk from third world countries. The US happens to be an advanced, rich, first-world country next door. You are the closest rich place. Thus they come to you. If Mexico shared a border with Canada, and not the US, Mexicans would try to illegally cross into Canada. If they shared a border with Germany, they'd try to cross over into Germany. Why aren't there a lot of Syrian asylum seekers in the US? They think the US is crap and don't want to come there? Or is it maybe because they are tens of thousands of kilometres away from the nearest US border? There do happen to be millions of them in Turkey though....I guess Turkey being next door to Syria has something to do with it.
What GP is trying to tell you is that "extreme vetting" and the like will do little to discourage desperate illegals (one, they are desperate, two, they are already trying to cross the border without bothering with such things as visas and passports and ETAs) but will do much to annoy legitimate travellers from rich countries, coming temporarily to spend money in the US. You will soon see that yes, you indeed care (as a nation, as an economy), because you will be losing out. On tourism dollars first, and then on business opportunities and investment after that. Treat every passenger as a potential terrorist and piss them off by subjecting them to ridiculous procedures, and guess what, you'll end up pissing off the 99,999...99% of passengers that aren't terrorists. Why would I want to go to a place where I might have my phone searched at the border? Why would I want to be submitted to the humiliation of explaining what every photo in my phone is about to some stranger trained to see a potential deadly threat in every person he comes across? So I can see the Grand Canyon? I can look at pictures of the canyon instead. Better that than some inane border guard looking over all my personal pictures.
Look at the reports of returning US citizens being required to do so. Shouldn't any non-citizen expect the same treatment? Especially if they are applying to live in this country. Then, when they are citizens, the NSA can keep check on them all the time....LOL
Foreign tourists spent $216B in America last year, making tourism one of our biggest "exports". This reduces our trade deficit and provides jobs for millions of Americans, maybe even some ex-coalminers. Trump should be doing everything possible to encourage more people to come here, rather than pushing them away. Sad.
Just ... what are they expecting with this? HONESTY? Or a well-rehearsed regurgitation of the correct answers?
Actually the problem I have is potentially worse since I cannot just give well rehearsed answers because I have no mobile phone and I do not use any social media sites, unless Slashdot counts. So I cannot give them a Facebook account or a mobile phone to scrutinize which will probably make me look extremely suspicious to them.
It's case sensitive.
Format C:||Y|Y
See, it's working!
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
People seem to think this is anything more than turning up the heat on the frog pot. We've been getting slowly boiled for a long, long time.
Welcome to the United States.
Zappa had it nailed on the jobless recovery too.
Food Gathering in Post-Industrial America, 1992
How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
Such things never stopped people in the past, when the rules were far more strict.
Let's face it, the US economy is dependent on exports. Now, what do you export? Unfortunately the statistics I know don't declare tourism as an export article, but judging from the GDP data, we can at least start pondering
agriculture: 1.1%
industry: 19.4%
services: 79.5%
80 cents of every GDP dollar come from services. Services are now very, very hard to export. Either you have to send the person performing the service abroad, or you have to get the person using (and paying for) the service here. Since the former will probably not be taxable here, the latter is way more popular.
That's called tourism.
Even considering that most services are for domestic consumption, it's hard to miss that the US economy is heavily dependent on the service sector. We're talking about around 70 million tourists from abroad visiting the US. And I think it's safe to assume that few of them manage to get by on a dollar a day.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
216 billion is not chump change.
America has become an authoritarian shit hole, land of the free and home of the brave no more.
Land of the opressed home of the coward is far more apt for the stinking shithole the US has become.
Social Justice Monks... actually, yeah, literal monks. Buddhist, not Christian.
Actually Catholic saints and some of the heretics to the Church are there as well.
Just don't go spouting any bullshit about freedom of speech, religion, freedom from unreasonable searches, etc. Or they'll throw you out as some sort of commie subversive
Have gnu, will travel.
Furthermore, the last time I flew *OUT* of the US, I took all these precautions *AND* had a fresh empty hard disk in my computer in case I was stopped either on the way out or the way back. I waited until I was in the foreign country, downloaded everything over the internet, scrubbed everything before returning, and.... got shooed right through customs with nary a glance. I do not at all believe that would still be true today, so the same precautions would apply, but honestly the only trip I would take on an airline today would be to emigrate, and at that point I will probably just take a car or boat, depending which is less invasive a departure point.
Also for the record: I wouldn't be immigrating to Canada without some serious changes in your laws. Plenty of the stupid IP laws I chafe against here are already codified up there, along with a bunch of other minor but still unpleasant laws. Get those fixed though and I will get to work on learning your anthem and this hockey game I keep hearing about :P (Sadly the rinks out here closed in the 80s or early 90s, so I didn't get to benefit. Also I knew a few people who did participate, including one who got his gut torn open with a skate.... rollerskates are unsafe enough for me, tyvm!)
That's amusing, because I, coming from the UK, have thought the same about the US for years. Highest tech third world country I've ever been to. Quite remarkable, but then it's a place where people often seem to be proud of their ignorance.
Treated as anyone should be - as equals. Oh well, that's me banned from Trumpelstiltskin's America then. Good.
The USA is the best country in the world slut. Deal with it. I bet you're a little bitch who comes from a country the size of one of our smaller states. When you're in trouble and threatened you turn to us first. Wimp.
If Trumo had hid pants down you'd blow him.
Only in inner city ghettos where the black and brown people live or rural areas where white hillbilly Christian methheads live. If you think the USA is third world I'd encourage you to visit Mexico where many citizens live in small shacks by the roadside as soon as you get out of town. Our ghettos can be bad but not nearly that bad.
We (my family) won't be back.
You hear about businesses talking about "transactional friction", i.e. the difficulties in doing a transaction, the lower it is the more it gets used.
Well the "friction" for visiting the USA is simply too high, the risks for tourists too high, the risk of loosing phones and laptop too high. Where as the friction for other countries is much lower.
Our next "big trip" (they usually are 4-8 weeks) will be into Asia in a couple of years, then back to Europe (via Asia) a few years after that, then a cruise around Australia. The USA has been removed from consideration, its too hard.
... should rule the day.
All countries should respond in kind to any vetting and any banning by the USA.
I'm an American and not particularly proud of it.
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
the world will learn to get on just fine without the USA. We can go back to sane copyright laws, sane patent laws, sane gun laws , etc etc etc etc
Without the irresistible military force of the USA you will go back to your old time feudalism and ultimately another world war.
It is not an insult — the judiciary has no say in who is allowed to cross the border. None. Zilch — it is entirely up to the Executive branch. At least, that's what we were told, when Elian Gonzalez was sent back to Cuba — in defiance of wishes of his mother, who gave up her life to get him out of there. A court refused to grant Elian a reprieve, deferring to the President, who wanted to send the boy back:
To suddenly switch for the exact opposite opinion requires utter disregard for the actual law and earlier precedents, however recent. The explanation, that the judges' motivation is some kind of "higher" justice — such as "Social" justice — is the most reasonable one...
And, before you ask, they were talking about Federal Executive branch — not that of any of the member States (suck it up, California). It was only in 2012, that Supreme Court Justice Kennedy wrote for the court's majority against Arizona:
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
This will lead to the creation of a new industry: making fake online personas, and whole clouds of phony innocuous friends, who can all pretend to be yours. The Facebook pages could go back years... e-mails, shooting back and fourth, all nice, clean, and benign, and you pay someone for the fake identity, and they change all the names to yours, add pictures of you, and give you the passwords. Then you give them THOSE, and not the real ones.
The fact that I, a random shmo, could think of that inside of 30 seconds of reading about this moronic lunacy of "EXTREME" vetting..., it's a pretty fair bet that someone nefarious, or indeed MANY such persons, have not only thought of this, but that this little business is just a-humming along.
Nice bullshit security theater though.
Good luck with that.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
I've joined a variety of social groups on line and gotten bored and left, but not canceled the account. I have some google and yahoo accounts I haven't used in ages, and probably have an AOL account from 20 years ago, no idea what the password was. I don't even know my FB password, my computer auto logs in, and its in secure physical storage at home with my other passwords.
But I can't PROVE that I've forgotten my google+ account password.
Then again, being a middle-aged white guy, I guess I don't need to worry.
Elian's grown up now and he's happy to stay in Cuba. He completed an engineering degree last year.
FTS: "... questions under consideration included... how (visa applicants) view the treatment of women in society".
Methinks VP Pence would fail that test miserably. His anti-abortion stance favours a law that would even prevent even rape victims from aborting the fetuses fathered by their rapists. He made a (thankfully unsuccessful) attempt to enact legislation forcing women to pay for funerals for the blood and tissue ejected when they miscarry. Now that's what I call a positive and respectful attitude towards women in society!
As for the US government becoming an even creepier Peeping Tom when it comes to probing visitors' privacy, I no longer care. I was already saying "No!" when it came to visiting the States, and now I'm saying "Hell no!", so this doesn't represent a very big change. I don't know why Trump is wasting the money that US taxpayers, (not Mexico), will pay to build his damned wall. He's already erecting a pretty effective virtual wall - lots of people around the world are staying away because of the antics of the knuckle-dragging thug that runs the place. If he keeps it up, even the most desperate Mexicans may feel safer with the drug lords, corruption, and abject poverty in their native country than they would in the land of der Trumpenfuhrer.
'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
Funny enough my country has people showing up literally risking death and losing limbs to get out of your country. Been happening for about 240 years now, all people seeking freedom, some literally freedom from slavery.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
Well, if you decide to visit again when the friction gets lower, maybe you'll let me buy you a beer.
We (my family) won't be back.
You hear about businesses talking about "transactional friction", i.e. the difficulties in doing a transaction, the lower it is the more it gets used.
Well the "friction" for visiting the USA is simply too high, the risks for tourists too high, the risk of loosing phones and laptop too high. Where as the friction for other countries is much lower.
Our next "big trip" (they usually are 4-8 weeks) will be into Asia in a couple of years, then back to Europe (via Asia) a few years after that, then a cruise around Australia. The USA has been removed from consideration, its too hard.
Please consider Southern South America. You won't be disappointed, I promise.
Of course you're correct about all that. But let me add some perspective to the America-firsters position, because it is, in its horrible way, at least partly consistent.
The majority of tourism dollars and employment go to the coastal, well-to-do, cosmopolitan, educated, liberal cities. The fact that alt-right anti-visitor policies are going to cripple the tourism industry isn't a bug to our regressive political thinkers; it's a feature. The fact that the coastal cities, the educated people, the cosmopolitan culture, the LBGTQ-friendly places, the colleges that receive foreign students, will be in a shambles is expressly among the things that they desire. Arguing that fact will not dissuade them; it will actually reinforce how wonderful these policies are.
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
fuck that piece of shit
Always happy to have a beer anywhere in the world.
:-)
My next "must" beer trip is to Ireland and go through the Guinness factory tour. Last time I was there I simply did not get time.
My one claim to Fame is that while I was in Detroit (30 years ago) I got smuggled into the players bar and I have had a beer with Gordie Howe the Canadian ice hockey great. Nice guy, nice beer, winning combo
slowly but surely, we are switching places with China.
Is anyone asking why put this into place?
> could also face questioning over their ideology
During the campaign Trump stated that no one should have their religion questioned.
This was after the Pope said that Trump wasn't really a Christian.
One rule for Trump, another for everyone else.
Well, you're absolutely right that a lot of tourism dollars go to liberal-minded coastal places (NYC, California). However, Arizona gets a lot of tourists. Nevada too. Nashville. Memphis (I transferred at Memphis airport once - I remember all the signs being in English and Japanese). Detroit. Wyoming. Utah. Etc. It's not like only the blue states benefit.
In the past ???
I found it hilarious that the US government is "concerned" about possible Russian funding of Afghan terrorist groups when the US was funding those exact same groups when Russia was the occupying force.
The USA meddles in the internal politics of other countries, funds terrorists (or freedom fighters until they change sides, then they are terrorists again), run espionage rings in other countries , Bullies other countries, etc etc etc, but they get upset when someone does it back to them.
Probably true, right up until they get to the realisation "USA first" means "USA last" for the 96% of the worlds population (and 80% of the world GDP) who are no US citizens.
The US has put at risk over $2 Trillion in exports. Those exports are often made by high tech, high paid workers (e.g. Boeing), what happens when Asia stick on a 30% tariff on US goods, the EU does well, the US does not. And things can be made difficult for Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, Adobe, HP, Facebook, Twitter, Intel, etc etc etc etc.
In the end it will all flow back to those American Firsters who will probably suffer the most for the longest period.
The thing they forget is "Can the world survive without the USA", the answer is yes, if all trade with the USA stopped it would hurt for a while, but it will open up opportunities for others and within a decade or two it will be "who cares".
The Brits are about to find this out too, Yes, its their choice to leave the EU, but if they ever want to join again it will be on the EUs terms (e.g. single currency , drive on the right, etc etc etc). Will the EU suffer, yep for a wee while, they will recover. Who knows the "divorce" may mean all the kids have to go home, UK workers require visas , work permits, etc, etc etc etc. They too have forgotten that once you are out of the game you can no longer make up the rules.
Do some research, and look up the meaning of Sectarian Violence. The Troubles were catholic vs protestant at the base line.The IRA were nationalistic in that they wanted a Catholic Republic.
I doubt, that justifies their actions, but it does make them distinctly different.
It makes them distinctly similar. A bunch of murdering bastards.
So the casual British terrorist just leaves their phone at home and claims to not have any social media accounts. Or is not having that suspicious? Does one have to have a Facebook account to enter the US? As if any of that has any impact on national security. Rather than destroy the US tourism industry Trump should focus on much stricter gun control laws. There are significantly more people getting shot in the US each year than were killed by terrorists in the last decade. He needs to get his priorities straight!
Do you have any that you haven't borrowed from us in the first place, smartypants?
I was planning to see some places in there but with this kind of new ruling i will now ditch that plan. Absolutely no way i don't share my passwords and contacts to anyone, i have nothing to hide but privacy is very big deal to me.
So for example, an extreme radical Taoist wants a visa. In his long term preparation he creates a LinkedIn, Facebook, Google, Dice, and Monster account. On those accounts he presents a picture of devoted family man with a steady job, and interest in koi ponds as a hobby. His day job as a fishmonger is seen as ironic by the consul and embassy staff. Unbeknownst to the US staffers in one of the encrypted disk images with his secret koi food recipes and pond building design concepts, there lurks insidious radical data. It is in the free space of the encrypted disk image. It itself is encrypted. The password to the encrypted disk image is "koi". But the freespace hidden image within the image requires the use of partition map tools to get the extents of the free space, and use of dd to copy those blocks to another blank disk image created for the specific purpose each time it is used. Then the new image can be decrypted by the usual encrypted volume tools. Once used, dod wipe the freespace after the new volume of secret terrorist sauce was used. It still sits in the encrypted form in the freespace of the nominally koi drive. But odds are no border inspection has a hope of finding it. Make it more fun and force the live version of the terrorist sauce to be in memory only, never backed to the hard drive, or ssd. Another method, in a large executable have a false framework embedded that is your encrypted data. Use the debugger of your development system to copy the framework out of the executable to an in memory filesystem file. Use a playlist from your tunes library as a one bit pad. Not the best as it has definitive patterns but not to shabby either. Run the song data through AES with a key you keep in your head. Then it's a better pad. And again, the immigration agents at the border aren't going to, in all likelyhood, be able to determine the radical Taoist plans for saucing the Christmas dinners with ligonberry sauce instead of cranberry sauce, those basters. This Taoist terrorist is carp. But the border checks will only find the information he wants them to find. He'll appear a normal fishmonger with normal social accounts and emails. His dualist nature hides with his realist presence in plain sight.
Once you've come to your senses and removed that F*tard currently running the show, I'll start rethinking my holiday plans to include your once-great country again. Until then, there are a lot of other places I want to see in the world, especially since I've already spent as much time in the Computer History Museum as I need to :-) Oh, well, I guess the Smithsonian will have to wait. Munich, with it's brilliant Deutsche Museum, will come first.
Treated as anyone should be - as equals. Oh well, that's me banned from Trumpelstiltskin's America then. Good.
No, no. They should be grabbed by the pussy like "any" American would do. /sarcasm
Yeah, it's totally a coincidence that the IRA were all Catholics. Nothing to do with religion whatsoever...
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
People will just use temporary Nokia type phones with whatever limited contacts they need for the duration of their stay, zero email setup etc so as to minimise the information present.
"Hand over your social media details!".
Don't have any you fucktard.
DHS are fucking morons.
Irresistible military force? Like the F-35?
look up the meaning of Sectarian Violence
Looked into wikipedia and some dictionaries, and it seems that sectarianism is a broader concept than just religious hate.
It may surprise you, but most of the world does. Well, unless you invaded them and made them pay you for it.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
A big Porsche fan was arrested last night while entering the United States.
When asked for the reason of his visit, he said he wanted to see the new 911.
Yeah, it's totally a coincidence that the IRA were all Catholics. Nothing to do with religion whatsoever...
And how many Englishmen where there in the IRA? When you have conflicts all the differences will be drawn in, be those ethnic, religious, language, colour, whatever else you can find. You might argue that maybe it wasn't a religious conflict to begin with, but now it is. However, if we look at the Good Friday agreement, it is a political one. Religion is only mentioned in so far as “lets respect each other, ok?”. Paining the IRA as a religious terrorist organization gives a false understanding on how to resolve the conflict. Yes, the fact that they were Catholics can help to mediate peace (look up work of Alec Reid), but the solution is not to convert the Queen to Catholicism.
"borrowed from us in the first place"
Like you, we all borrow from China now.
You mean the states that aren't part of the right wing nut case shithole? Yea maybe it's time we push for calexit. Too many backwards goombas in the red States. These idiots actually believe things they read on infowars and Breitbart. Talk about the most backward asses in the world.
Wasn't it already established that constitutional rights don't really apply while you're stuck in immgrations? They can search your stuff without a warrant, so why should other constitutional protections apply?
"They are taking him nowhere, Mr. Rivers."
And so does Russia, resulting in millions of illegal immigrants there. Must be an awesome place to live according to your logic.
Both are countries I won't visit again.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
As a European I agree with this with one exception: it doesn't necessarily mean said companies will be 'replaced' by others. Multinational companies can re-locate themselves just as people can. If a trade war is started and Google & Co do the math and figure staying in the US will hurt their bottom line too much they'll move out and become European for example.
This is one of the main reasons why trade wars are stupid and counter--productive in this day and age. Capital and corporations can move across borders rapidly, and they will do so the moment said trade war will start hurting them too much. Trumpsters seem to be under the illusion there's some magical property making american companies forever american. Right now they are because currently the american stock market and environment is still the best place to do business from but if that changes these guys are not going to stay because they're patriots or some such nonsense. They care about money and making it, not the color of the flag waving atop their headquarter.
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" -Alfred North Whitehead
I don't mind being asked questions, but I can't remember my social media passwords...
Well, somebody needed to pay for Black & Decker drills - the favoured power tool of the IRA.
"Well, unfortunately for you we can prove that you are lying. So we'll stick you in prison first and then deport you. Have a nice day!"
Those non-muslims who wish to associate with muslims can do so, the rest of us (probably 99% of the world's non-muslim population) can just live among ourselves, and you can show us all what we're missing.
Freedom of non-association is the most basic of all human rights.
Who would choose to associate with a criminal? Nobody. So most crime would end, because criminals would be exiled from society, or would have to change their behaviour. etc.etc.
Every country which is required to provide the information to enter the US should also do the exact same to people coming from the US. I'll bet a lot of US citizens will start bitching and scream that it would be ridiculous, but then just tell them, "that's exactly what our citizens have to do when they enter your country"..
You just made my day, thanks :)
Only if we can do it in private!
My next "must" beer trip is to Ireland and go through the Guinness factory tour. Last time I was there I simply did not get time.
It's well worth doing, but ironically it's not a great place to drink Guinness. It needs to be left to settle for a little bit in the barrel before pouring and the bar on top of the museum (great views - do go there) doesn't leave it long enough. When I was there, the best place for guinness was a 'pre-club bar' on the river called the White Horse, but I think it's closed now. Ask a local for advice, it's well worth it!
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Idiot. The world's population would quite literally starve without the US.
You've posted dozens of times on this article, same stupid nonsense in every post.
Please don't visit the US. Ever. We do not need your money. The price to deal with stupid people is too high.
The Trump response at its finest: a sour smirk while rubbing a cheesegrater up and down your own cock.
the best* guinness is served in shitty "old men" bars.
*best is relative. All guinness tastes like arse. If you want propery drink head up to bushmills and get a bottle of black label. om nom nom.
To be fair, UK welcomed Chechen islamists with open arms back in the 1990ies and also allowed them fund raising and still refuses to extradite them on terrorism charges. Brits really are no better in this matter.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Last time they held my laptop for a month....
The US is resembling Russia more and more. Once a superpower, now going gradually downhill socially and politically. Whenever anyone points this out they get huffy and isolate themselves from anyone who criticizes them in any way. Which only further contributes to their problems.
And how many Englishmen where there in the IRA?
Perhaps you should do some reading on that, There were more than a few English in the IRA, every war has turncoats.
One name you should start with is Rose Dugdale, born in Devon, stole and detonated bombs for the IRA. Next look at the attack in Kingsmill in 1976, widely believed to be an English sympathiser although never named.
The common denominator of the IRA is that they were all catholic... and catholic on protestant violence was a bigger issue in Northern Ireland (as well as regular Ireland) than the Provincial IRA sending explosives to Whitehall. Hell, the sectarian violence is still not completely over for the Irish, even though the IRA has stopped sending bombs to Whitehall (they only send bills now). You should actually know something about the IRA and the Troubles before commenting on them.
Posting as AC because I did mod you down and unashamed of it. Captcha: violator, seemed ironic
Well, there were actually two factions of Irish terrorist, Republicans and Loyalists, split pretty exactly on a catholic/protestant divide, and the Loyalists in particular were 'motivated by religion', and anti-Catholicism. This specifically religious divide was also reflected culturally outside Ireland in cities with large Irish immigrant populations, like Liverpool and Glasgow.
And, apart from the few instances we on mainland UK tend to focus on, the majority of both sides' terrorist acts were aimed at inhabitatants and natives of an island called Ireland.
Compare that to the inter-Islamic terrorism regularly inflicted, in Islamic countries, between the Sunni and Shia, the equivalent major Islamic schisms, and no, its not distinctly different at all, not even close.
oh boy have you got a surprise of basic knowledge coming:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
you can't even use the same scale for US vs others. If you group the whole EU together, well, the whole EU still has less.
yes fuckface, the US is the center of the universe. Deal with it. Or don't. We don't give a fuck what you do or think. We do have some bullshit going on internally though, and those are our problems to deal with.
plain and simple, don't go.
For vacation, the world is a big place, there are enough other beautiful, friendly places to visit.
For business, make them do the trip to you.
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
You do understand that there will be no EU in twenty years, yes? Look for Greece and Italy to be the next two out the door under the tyranny of the Euro. Pro tip: never give up your own currency. One size does not fit all. As for Germany, I can't wait for the Russians to take those motherfuckers out.
Airbus is European.
So you think that if there were, say, 20 million more muslims living in the USA (and doubtless in high concentrations in certain areas, as non-muslism always move away from areas which muslims move into) that there would be MORE tourism? How's Dearborn, Michigan working out for you?
I got the last word! I read this out loud, and my wife left the room! Viva my debating skills! Anonymous because, couch.
I take it you're aware of the per capita number of murderers when you distribute by race? Any comment?
Boooom
Used to be you could pretty much trust Europeans not to come to America to blow things up or murder people. Now they've taken in so many terrists and their supporters, that's no longer the case... I'm quite amazed that Britain is still in the Visa Waiver Program, because it looks more like a third-world country every time I go there.
Bullshit have you been to Britain. Or if you have: do you want to be more specific with your bile? Rather than just slandering an entire country, and continent?
Seems highly unlikely you know anything about Europe.
We have people literally dying to come across our borders to get here.
Man you guys really need to get your health insurance sorted out.
If the US is THAT bad, why are they coming?
Because they can't get to places where they want to go. Same reason I went to Chicago last year.
Do some research, and look up the meaning of Sectarian Violence. The Troubles were catholic vs protestant at the base line.The IRA were nationalistic in that they wanted a Catholic Republic.
No, they were Irish and wanted a united Ireland free from foreign rule. Just like any other independence struggle. I don't condone their violence but it was not primarily a religious war.
All this will do is make me get a flip phone, and a wiped laptop specifically for travel.
I'm not going to give you my password to my real laptop.
In any case it would be illegal for me to do so (not just against TOS).
as for contacts, sure, they can have the three contacts I will put in my fake phone.
And facebook is easy.
I'll change the password to something I don't know, store it on my home computer.
Since I won't have my real phone with me, there will be no way to obtain the password.
Maybe do the same to all email addresses just to be safe.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Perhaps you'd like to tell that to your fellow Americans working in the tourist trade when they lose their jobs, see if you've still got a full set of teeth after.
Yes, it is a coincidence. The England-Ireland conflict began, when both sides were still a mixture Catholics/Pagans, centuries before establishment of the Church of England.
Cromwell's anti-Catholicism laws date to 17th century — half a millennium after the early armed invasions of England's armies into Ireland.
You got it.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
The USA is now Russia's bitch. Putin has Trump in his pocket. Suck on that.
I am not sure if this is just codifying existing practices or what, but if you watch "Border Security" you would know that these things are pretty standard in Canada, Australia, and America.
The first thing border agents do is to get your phone passwords.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
You are a shameless asshole then. You may find GP's post disagreeable, but it certainly is not a "troll"...
Bullshit. The conflict began, when England itself was (barely) Catholic, centuries before Church of England was invented.
^^^ Hear fucking hear.
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
No, fuck this shit. I organize medical conferences for a living and it is starting to become fucking impossible to invite internationally known speakers to events here in the United States.
They shut down the international IRS "certified acceptance agent" program as of January 1st which means it is next to impossible for even someone from Canada to apply for an Individual Taxpayer ID Number that would allow us to pay them legally as an independent contractor and avoid a 30% tax to the IRS, under a provision of the US-Canada tax treaty that allows independent contractors without a physical base of operations to work in either country without paying exorbitant taxes to the other government. The only way to do this now is to have the Canadian (or whoever) physically mail their passport to the IRS and wait months for it to be (hopefully) returned.
Now they are going to invasively probe all the private data of anyone visiting this country? That is fucking insane and it will be next to impossible to have any presenter for any international medical or research conference do any kind of presentation here. Before you know it we will become the kind of backwater hillbilly nation that all those fucking Trump supporters always wanted us to be, because nobody in their right mind will even dream of visiting this fucked up place.
Pertinent quote:
SEC JOHN KELLY: Yeah. You know, pick a country. The thing that we're looking for is when a person comes in, the State Department does these interviews. Someone comes in and says, I want to come to the United States. Then we ask them to give us a list of websites that they visit and the passwords to get on those websites to see what they're looking at. This is...
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
Many people in the US were raised in a time where we *were* the center of the universe. The propaganda said that was because of how great our society was. In reality, the US was the center of the universe, because we were the only country that could take on the Soviet Union's quest for world domination. That was basically a war of attrition and the Soviets bankrupted themselves first. It wasn't a victory when the Soviet Union collapsed but rather a time of fear since they were a nuclear armed state. Now the US is declining and we're also a nuclear armed state. Emotionally, though, people have been so indoctrinated that they can't adjust to the new reality very well. Similar to the Soviet decline, the US has an amazing and scary military capacity which is why the world even cares at all.
Also, in fairness, poor immigrants (legal or otherwise) have a disproportional negative effect on the poorer inland area. The reality is, though, that losing tourists is less of a concern than losing immigrants. All developed countries have a problem with birth rate and the US is certainly no exception. We aren't going to be able to pay for our social security system if we don't get *more* people moving here. And that will hurt the flyover country people the most as they are less likely to have private pensions / 401ks.
Speak for yourself you fucking uneducated imbecile. I organize medical conferences for a living and inviting international speakers to speak at a conference in the United States is becoming a fucking nightmare.
China is still only the second-largest economy although will probably overtake the US soon. Had we not had Brexit, the EU likely would have overtaken in the next ten years. Now that may take a bit longer. China is going to have a tough time sustaining economic growth due to the dearth of accurate information needed for business planning. That should be a huge US competitive advantage but will likely be undermined due to the alternative-facts movement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
As the US has the death penalty, I'm not sure how to answer that one.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
They were motivated by more than just nationalism.
There have been centuries of discrimination against Irish Catholics.
It would seem to me that the actions my government is taking with regard to muslims is only going to exacerbate a problem that could have remained a regional, political conflict.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
"borrowed from us in the first place"
Like you, we all borrow from China now.
We actually borrow from the Federal Reserve System. It's the bank's money, we just get to borrow it for a while.
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
The USA is the best country in the world slut. Deal with it. I bet you're a little bitch who comes from a country the size of one of our smaller states. When you're in trouble and threatened you turn to us first. Wimp.
Way to confirm that stereotype, Cletus.
Bullshit.
It's true motherfucker I organize medical conferences in the U.S. and getting speakers to travel here and give a presentation is a fucking nightmare these days
When you need to escape your Muslim infested 3rd world shithole you've made for yourself, we'll consider the application, and you can thank us later for saving at least one place on the planet for you.
You're a moron
Uhh I was in London 3 months ago and it looks like a fucking 3rd world shithole.
You should get out more.
Stunning rebuttal. Pure genius.
Canadian Customs will also go through your phone and/or computer looking to verify your story. Don't know about social media accounts.
Because there are worse places.
Your question essentially amounts to "Is the US the worst place in the world?", and the answer is "No.".
It's all the brown people, amirite?
Not just that, but RECORDING the data on the phone, and doing lord knows what, because they don't do those things in FRONT of a person.. so absolutely not.. I've already advised my workers to focus on telecommuting/video conference calls, and the US has dropped from a priority country to a to be avoided country... I've encouraged my staff to if at all possible, avoid going into the US for any reason. (most have very little reason, but actions like this, again, put the US on that "do not fly into" list).
My company used to spend about 1-2 Million USD in travel to the US annually, that's dropped to 80K.. and we continue to lower it. I'm one of about a 2 dozen firms that do similar amounts... which will be reduced.
Enjoy your deconstruction and isolation..
God made the Idiot for practice, and then He made the School Board -- Mark Twain Look for http://Thebar.steelbeachca
Lucky guy.
Woooooosh.
^^ The sound of the point I made flying right over your head.
Ah, well.
A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
They're not online yet. But our 60 year old B-52s still do a pretty good job of keeping the lid on. Why won't you people acknowledge that it is the USA that keeps the world as peaceful and productive as it is today? Without them the degeneration into chaos and planetary destruction would be immediate. For the human race to survive and thrive the USA is the indispensable nation. There is no other that holds dear the sanctity of life as we do. Well, up till last year anyway. The doomsday clock has moved a lot closer to the zero hour. All because of stupid people that will dance to anything.
in the rest of the world thanks us.
Yes. That's kind of the point.
Kind of like the UK with Brexit.
"This is a local country, for local people. Theres nothing for you foreigners here!"
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
Let's see... If there are improvements in the Star Trek Mirror universe, then you can bet, that the primary universe will simultaneously have terrible things to come. Such as, people become better people in the Mirror universe, and people becoming worse in the primary universe.
Thinking that the Irish situation really had anything to do with religion is naive. It had more to do with the subjugation of the Irish by the British, forcing the Irish to abandon Gaelic, abandon their traditional games (i.e. hurling), etc... And after the Irish were essentially forced to be tenants on land they had owned for generations the British let them starve during the potato famine rather than bend their free market ideals even a little by letting them eat the wheat and other grains they were growing. Millions starved to death while grain they grew was exported for profit.
The religion of someone in Ireland was merely a marker to indicate whether they had accepted the subjugation of England.
we borrow from china? I'm going to play it safe and just assume wherever it is you're from, the education is very poor. china is the illegal mexican immigrant getting paid scraps to bring us coffee for pennies. they're not some superpower. they're the low standard of living outsourced "do our shitwork" uneducated uncultured rice farmers.
China has 5 times our population and half the GDP. It would be like borrowing money from the kid mowing my lawn. The money we borrow - our national debt, is owed back to ourselves, not China.
Yes, starting with Cromwell... England was prosecuting even the domestic Catholics — questioning their loyalty (again, on Nationalist grounds) — those of the subjugated lands stood no chance...
If you are referring to the US government, you are quite obviously wrong. The US has not persecuted Muslims at all until 9/11 — to a fault. We walked on eggshells. For example, we didn't finish Saddam Hussein in 1992 so as not to appear to be "crusaders". And what did we get — we got 9/11 because our troops have entered, with the country's government's permission (invitation!) the "sacred lands of Saudi Arabia"!
Yeah, which "region" is it, the contains the Arabian peninsula, Manhattan, and Virginia?
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
I'm European, too, posting as AC, though.
There is currently a caveat, in that the United States is a member of NATO, and an ally to all NATO members. Primarily, it's to protect Europe from Russia. That still works.
So, actually physically isolating the U.S. is not a good thing; yet the U.S. does a great job of it on its own.
Very smart and reasonably big companies already have offices in strategic places around the world. If things slowly turn for the worse in the U.S., then these companies' European offices and infrastructure are more likely to expand, and American offices are then more likely to suffer layoffs, close, or relocate to better pastures (Canada as physically the closest wealthy country). At best, there would be employee movements and reassignments from the U.S to Europe and maybe Asia/Oceania, too.
There is already a minor brain drain of the highest and best-quality American talent. Upwards of 7–9 million U.S. citizens already live outside the United States, but this is more like an accumulation. That is not a small number. Many are renouncing their citizenships because of the FATCA tax law, though most of them are probably Canadians who are accidental Americans.
And of course you'll insist that the Gunpowder Plotters were also just coincidentally Catholic.
I love watching the extent to which people trying to make Islam into some sort of special case will partake of special pleading to try to let Christians of similar deeds off the hook.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Of course absolutely nothing has actually happened - except for a media that's totally out of control throwing gasoline on every single comment made by anyone and immediately painting a horrible picture of the end of the world...
And if you actually believe what you read in our press, please check out the comment sections, they are more rational than the crap the press writes. Seriously if you can't see what's going on over here - we don't want you to visit anyway. The press is bat-shit crazy. Many of the people on the coasts are bat-shit crazy. The rest of us - THE MAJORITY - are happy and perfectly normal and not really all the worried about Trump.
Murphy was an optimist
Including trying to force them to abandon, you guessed, Catholicism. Catholicism wasn't the only cause of the Troubles, but saying it wasn't a part of the issue is like claiming the US Civil War wasn't about slavery. The fact was that the Irish viewed their culture as fundamentally Catholic, and viewed the Protestants in Ulster as unwanted criminal interlopers. Every war has its team colors, and in Ireland, the team colors are Catholic and Protestant
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Exactly. Trump's game plan is to turn the United States into an autarky.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Funny how 'the special relationship' means the UK provides troops for US military adventures, but we have to have a visa to come to US, whereas you don't need one to come here. I think for a lot of UK tourists this will be the deal breaker. I won't be submitting to personal questions about my politics etc, even if I am a white, female 70 year old.
" ... value 'the sanctity of human life'... " ... this from a bunch of clowns who think that health insurance, which helps to keep that sanctity intact, should just cover those whose genes and circumstances have helped to keep from really needing health insurance. Any conservative who speaks about the sanctity of life is talking out of their rear end. They don't have any concern for the children once the children are born and they have little concern for the sick or weak. 'Can't afford that operation? That's too bad, you should have been rich. Or not had that car accident that you weren't at fault for'.
If our species or society was the kind to literally let people drop dead the moment something was drastic enough with that person's health, that would be one thing. But supposedly, life is sacred. Just not sacred enough to actually provide sufficient humane care and make it somewhere in the ballpark of affordability.
The U.S.A. hasn't lost its mind. A large portion of it has lost any semblance of humanity.
captcha: pathetic
I prefer option 3, "None of this ineffective bullshit"
It's especially funny watching Brits try to trash the US. You voted Brexit. Half of you for very Trumpish reasons, the other half didn't even know WTF they were voting for. Have another crumpet and take a nap.
Maybe the Brits will remember this when US wants to borrow our infantry, who return maimed or in body bags, sometimes injured by ' friendly fire'.
Ok, so you surrender the previous topic and wish to change to the new one? Fine, I accept.
England created its own "Church of England" to break away from Rome. Though ostensibly it involved religion, it was a purely political move. Catholics, who continued to divide their loyalty between their nation and the Pope (who was often directly controlled by France), were justifiably suspected. (In modern terms, the conflict was between the Euro-centrics and Euro-sceptics — and so it remains today, even if terrorism is no longer used by either side.)
For another example, consider today's Russian-Ukrainian war — Russia is using the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Moscow Patriarchate as a bulwark against Ukraine, which tries to resist with the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Kyivan Patriarchate. There are no differences in religious doctrine — none whatsoever. The sole difference is that of loyalty... Though it involves religions, the conflict is not religious in the slightest.
It is a special case. Whereas Christianity "renders Cæsar's to Cæsar", Islam prescribes — in detail — how the country (the world!) ought to be governed: by Sharia, a Theocracy. You can not be a good Muslim and not fight for the establishment of it — on this Earth...
This makes Islam not purely a religion, but also a political movement/ideology. A movement, which — like Communism, for example — should be resisted and indeed attacked.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
We have people literally dying to come across our borders to get here. If the US is THAT bad, why are they coming?
Because they are idiots and are sucked in by your propaganda. Same with the UK.
You need to turn your propaganda machine around so that it shows the world what life is really like in the USA (same for UK) so these people get a realistic impression and realize that they actually should go somewhere else.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
There is also the FATCA law that you have to watch out for. A Wikipedia article about it has a good primer. If you plan to retire and keep on living in Germany, then you must consider, that most banks outside the United States won't open bank accounts to U.S. citizens because of the reporting requirements set in the FATCA law, which has been made extraterritorial (because many financial institutions do business in the U.S.). One additional way to counter that would be to renounce U.S. citizenship, but that's a lengthy and expensive process.
It looked far scruffier in the 1970s believe me.
It involved slavery, but the main issue was states rights. Yes, states rights to own slaves, but still states rights. You can see the precident set by the north winning even today.
Trump's extreme vetting decision is working very well. Canadian tourists, for example, busses with classrooms of school kids with one or more immigrant children have cancelled visits to the USA. Even Canadian born WASP are avoiding the USA. We used to camp around Lake George, around Plattsburg, and now we are visiting our own east coast provinces.
I'm glad for Trumps actions. Our tourist dollars are remaining in Canada. And now we are looking at purchases via ALIBABA in lieu of EBAY.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
The free world has started to look like that dystopian police state future that American movies have been previewing for years.
I recommend "The Running Man", starring Arnold Schwarzenegger. It's really eerie, considering the movie was meant to be over-the-top and silly, not at all an accurate prediction of how things would be in the late 2010s.
Russia aka the Soviet Union at the time was not friendly to Jews either. The main Soviet rocket scientist Korolyov spent time in the Gulags, for example, but not because Korolyov was a Jew. Discrimination of Jews was not official, but there survive many not-so-good Russian-language jokes about Jews from when Einstein lived. The UK or Canada would have been reasonably good alternatives back then. Only that the UK had the rationing system (most likely to avoid price-gouging and extreme hoarding of food to ensure equal distribution to everyone) during the war and thereafter, that lasted into the eary sixties, IIRC.
You obviously don't get it. Those high tech, high paid workers live in the rich, coastal cities in America, not the "flyover country" and rural places that voted for this stuff. Those people don't care about the "coastal elites", in fact they despise them. If this means the tech industry goes down the tubes and the coastal cities all turn into wastelands, they'll be *happy*. They really do think that Trump can bring back the economy of the 1950s and that old-time manufacturing is going to come back to rural America, and that they'll be able to happily discriminate against gays and minorities again. Your economic arguments are useless: these people simply do not understand modern economics.
The same goes for the Brits who voted "leave".
Trump Facist Dream. Nuff Said.
We can go back to sane copyright laws, sane patent laws, sane gun laws , etc etc etc etc
As an American, I'd like to point out that you're perfectly free to adopt saner laws any time you like (unless maybe you're in a sorta-occupied country like Afghanistan). If you're in Western Europe, there's nothing stopping you from adopting sensible legislation other than your own internal problems. The US has a lot of problems, and some really stupid laws, but it's not to blame for your laws.
Trumpsters seem to be under the illusion there's some magical property making american companies forever american.
People like you just don't get it. Trumpsters aren't simply under some illusion, they completely lack any knowledge about basic macroeconomics at all. Most of them couldn't even find China on a world map. It's really hard for educated people to comprehend the mentality of people with such a lack of education, who will happily believe anything they're told by their uneducated peers or their church pastor.
Some of us on this side of the pond have been wondering when you folks would finally figure out what that "special relationship" is. It should have become pretty clear in 1956 with the Suez Crisis, and that was over sixty years ago.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
The US did plenty of meddling in the Middle East, including supporting Israel through pretty much everything they did. The Iraqi invasion of Kuwait was at least partly a failure of US diplomacy, in that Saddam had a very mistaken opinion on what the US would do, after asking the appropriate US diplomat.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Some of us worked it out decades ago, it's just our stupid Governments that when asked to jump, ask'how high'.
Those "socialist states" comprise a large amount of the US population and economy. It would appear that your idea of a more perfect union involves less per capita income.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
We have people literally dying to come across our borders to get here. If the US is THAT bad, why are they coming?
I never understood why people making the argument amounting to "at least we're not the worst" don't see the hilarity of this last refuge.
Ezekiel 23:20
yes fuckface, the US is the center of the universe
I think at least the advanced aliens would disagree. ;)
Ezekiel 23:20
Ah yes, all the convincing authority of an AC.
What sort of hypocrites are the U.S?
They are asking people if they value human life but still have the death penalty. Oh the irony.
Erh... The CIA disagrees.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
the big tourist companies better be called the SOB in the white house and tell him to back the hell down or else..
NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER GIVE UP! "No limitations, no boundaries, there is no reason for them."
If I visit, it'll be with a factory-wiped phone. In a factory case, so this looks legit. Then I logon, and redownload all my stuff after customs.
Unlike Islam-motivated terrorists of today, the Irish terrorists were motivated by the sense of nationalism, not religion.
The first terrorist attack was conducted by Jewish terrorists killing British and other citizens in an attempt to establish the Israeli state. 90 dead 45 injured.
This contrasts your example of Irish terrorism which was religiously motivated (catholic vs protestant) with Israeli terrorism which did have a nationalist motivation to establish the Israeli state.
If we are to have discussions about terrorism I think that understanding the history of its use helps provide context.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Amazing. And it Fucking serves is right, ain't it?
That's why she faux. Haha, yours arch g such a great Wis. Very bigly good argument.
Just don't bring your phone. Or get a travel cheapo phone. Its simple really.
every war has turncoats
Let me ask then, how many Catholic converts where there in IRA? And how about David Russell, who was a protestant member of IRA?
More importantly, you have not addressed my main point, which is that while statistically Catholics are targeting Protestants, viewing the conflict as religious is misguided, since at the root of it are national grievances. Protestants were not killed because they didn't believe in transubstantiation. They were killed because they were [at least perceived to be] loyalists that supported occupying government which was viewed as repressive.
Posting as AC because I did mod you down and unashamed of it.
Do you really think that I was trolling? As in, trying to upset people by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages? I'm not denying the suffering of those involved, or making fun of them. You might mod me down as “overrated” if you believe that I am wrong, but most posts in /. are misguided. Since my post by default was hidden anyway, there was no need to mod down anyhow.
"borrowed from us in the first place"
Like you, we all borrow from China now.
Who gives a shit? None of the money is real in the first place and it's literally impossible to pay it all back anyway.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
the Irish terrorists were motivated by the sense of nationalism, not religion.
With the Irish those are two sides of the same coin. The Northern Irish at least.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
With an attitude like that you wonder why we don't want you here. Just stay home. We don't care. We have people literally dying to come across our borders to get here. If the US is THAT bad, why are they coming?
Yeah, and you're doing everything possible to fuck them all off as quickly as possible. Those people literally dying to get across the border aren't going to bring money in, exactly the opposite. So you just take that as evidence of your own superiority while even your companies try to get as much of their money out of america as possible.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
Dude, I am in geosciences and we see a tremendous asymmetry between our annual conference that alternates between Europe and the USA. Nearly no-one goes to the US meetings, while the European meetings are always at maximum capacity.
I think there's some lines about that in the national anthem. No longer applies.
Controlling who gets in to the country is why we can have nice things like constitutional rights.
The US under Abe Lincoln during the civil war, being a warzone had large areas where constituional rights took a backseat to military necessity.
In the interest of keeping the US not-a-warzone, we need to prevent enemies from entering. It is better to make rights violations a condition for entering than to be forced to abandon rights at all points within the jurisdiction of the US.
And anyway, the constitution only applies to the Jurisdiction of the United States. If you've no visa and are outside the US borders, you have precisely zero constitutional rights. There was a 1980s SCOTUS ruling about that, so it's a pretty solid foundation to base extreme vetting on.
If you have some prior relationship with the US such as a previous visa you MIGHT be able to make a case that you are somehow under the Jurisdiction of the United States and so due constitutional rights, but that's pretty iffy.
IMO, having read through the Koran, it seems obvious that anyone who simply does what it says would be an enemy to me personally and to the values and culture I think have been and hope will always be inherent in what it means to be American. Moderate Muslims are lying to themselves. Maybe some day they will find their way to secularity. But it's not my problem if they stay out of my country.
The constitution was written in the absense ( to a number of decimal places ) of Islam.
The absense of large numbers of Muslims is one of the reason we can have nice things like constitutional rights.
We should do what we can to defend what we have inherited from the enlightenment, and preserve it for future generations.
...
The first terrorist attack, likely, predates written history. It is only in recent decades, that we started to frown on the method as a morally unacceptable one.
Bzzz! An attempt to change subject detected — and rejected.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
the Irish terrorists were motivated by the sense of nationalism, not religion.
With the Irish those are two sides of the same coin. The Northern Irish at least.
And yet, it is not their religion, that motivates them — indeed, fellow Catholics in France, Spain, and Italy neither sympathize with nor sponsor the activity. On contrast, even the areligious Irish sympathize with the struggle — because it is motivated by nationalism, not religion.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Owe a bank a million dollars, the bank owns you. Owe a bank a hundred million dollars, you own the bank. Same sentiment with nation's.
Anyone really serious about attacking the US can bypass extreme vetting very easily.
Who dreamed this up? A third grader with absolutely no experience with modern technology?
Addendum for clarity: Korolyov was not a Jew (AFAIK), but that his being in the Gulags was not predicated on his specific race, but some other ostensible fault that the Soviet found in his person (can't remember which).
The first terrorist attack, likely, predates written history.
and is therefore contextually irrelevant in this conversation.
It is only in recent decades, that we started to frown on the method as a morally unacceptable one.
I think diplomacy is the only morally acceptable method. That's what made us different from terrorists, you know dialogue.
Bzzz! An attempt to change subject detected — and rejected.
I thought the troll mod was a little unfair. I was giving you an opportunity to re-frame your comment into a context that made more sense so you could elaborate. Looks like I was wrong and the moderation is appropriate.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Said someone, who dragged Jews into a thread about Northern Ireland...
Try it in Syria, post the results (hint — invest in a quality gas-mask before going there).
It was not "a little unfair" — it was utterly bogus. Right or wrong, it was most certainly not a "troll".
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Said someone, who dragged Jews into a thread about Northern Ireland...
The thread was about terrorism. Both are terrorists.
Try it in Syria, post the results (hint — invest in a quality gas-mask before going there).
Diplomacy worked with the IRA.
Right or wrong, it was most certainly not a "troll".
Sure, you're wrong because the IRA advertised religious, not nationalist rhetoric.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Actually, that's debatable — but irrelevant. We were discussing, whether the Irish terrorists were motivated by religion or other sentiment(s).
Out of the blue you switch the topic to Jews, claiming, incorrectly, that they were the first terrorists.
Even stipulating for a second, that targeting an occupier's administration is still terrorism, there certainly have been acts of terrorism before that. Your claim, that the Jews, somehow, were the first, was wrong. False. Liar, liar, pants on fire. Four Pinocchios. Full Stop.
And, of course, it was and remains off-topic. We are done here.
Scores of people remain in prison — kept there on pain of violents.
Now you are talking — back on topic again. Of course, you offer no citations and I'm already too tired of your lies, exaggerations, and topic-switching attempts. As I said, we are done here...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
We were discussing, whether the Irish terrorists were motivated by religion or other sentiment(s).
You said: Unlike Islam-motivated terrorists of today, the Irish terrorists were motivated by the sense of nationalism, not religion.
Which is clearly wrong, the IRA advertised its motivation as religious, as opposed to...
Out of the blue you switch the topic to Jews, claiming
...being nationalistically motivated, as in the case of the Irgun using terrorism to establish the Israeli state.
there certainly have been acts of terrorism before that.
You are free to provide any information you can find to support your claim about the IRA.
Of course, you offer no citations
Perhaps you were so committed to imposing your point of view that you the link I posted in my first post supporting my position. Where is your link supporting your position about the nationalistic goals of the IRA considering how long the Irish state has been established. You position is nonsensical.
and I'm already too tired of your lies, exaggerations, and topic-switching attempts False. Liar, liar, pants on fire. Four Pinocchios. Full Stop.
The standard reaction of an ideologue encountering counter rationalism, an emotional outburst and irrationality. You haven't supported your initial claim, which you accuse me of, despite a link being right in front of you and then try to alter reality when it is right there for anyone to read. Finally you throw tantrum because you can't afford the mental effort of defending your position.
I guess the moderators were right.
As I said, we are done here...
Indeed, it is unlikely that you have anything of value to contribute.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Yeah, except the cia says in 2016 both the EU and China were ahead of the United States. I'm sure you won't let facts get in the way of your idiocy though
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html
Wrong priorities/targets http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...
Casteism
You reject Muslims as "bad" or "not-true" Muslims for not believing in a literal worldwide caliphate, but would you similarly reject those Christians who believe the creation story is a metaphor, or those that ignore prohibitions on things like tattoos? I mean, kudos if the answer is "yes", because then you're at least being consistent, but even if it is "yes" that still sounds like a "no true Scotsman" fallacy.