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High-Paying Trade Jobs Sit Empty, While High School Grads Line Up For University (npr.org)
An anonymous reader shares an NPR report: While a shortage of workers is pushing wages higher in the skilled trades, the financial return from a bachelor's degree is softening, even as the price -- and the average debt into which it plunges students -- keeps going up. But high school graduates have been so effectively encouraged to get a bachelor's that high-paid jobs requiring shorter and less expensive training are going unfilled. This affects those students and also poses a real threat to the economy. "Parents want success for their kids," said Mike Clifton, who teaches machining at the Lake Washington Institute of Technology, about 20 miles from Seattle. "They get stuck on [four-year bachelor's degrees], and they're not seeing the shortage there is in tradespeople until they hire a plumber and have to write a check."
In a new report, the Washington State Auditor found that good jobs in the skilled trades are going begging because students are being almost universally steered to bachelor's degrees. Among other things, the Washington auditor recommended that career guidance -- including choices that require less than four years in college -- start as early as the seventh grade. "There is an emphasis on the four-year university track" in high schools, said Chris Cortines, who co-authored the report. Yet, nationwide, three out of 10 high school grads who go to four-year public universities haven't earned degrees within six years, according to the National Student Clearinghouse. At four-year private colleges, that number is more than 1 in 5.
In a new report, the Washington State Auditor found that good jobs in the skilled trades are going begging because students are being almost universally steered to bachelor's degrees. Among other things, the Washington auditor recommended that career guidance -- including choices that require less than four years in college -- start as early as the seventh grade. "There is an emphasis on the four-year university track" in high schools, said Chris Cortines, who co-authored the report. Yet, nationwide, three out of 10 high school grads who go to four-year public universities haven't earned degrees within six years, according to the National Student Clearinghouse. At four-year private colleges, that number is more than 1 in 5.
I guess Mike Rowe was right all along!
In my 20 years of working in software development, a bachelor's degree and any further is a waste of time. The best coders I've worked with are musicians as well as coders. I work in an investment bank in the risk department, I've worked on a number of systems where the Quants (all with PhDs in maths or physics) developed a prototype in C++ and mocked when we said we'd build the real system in Java. However our systems in all of the projects were at least a magnitude faster than the Quant systems, not because Java is faster than C++, but because the development team knew how to code for performance. Coding is incredibly complicated, to be good, only experience pays.
Dum spiro spero
The reason for this is the current generation looks down on blue collar work thinking that its beneath them. This myth is propagated by many high schools with the elimination of shop and auto mechanics classes.
This isn't helped at the university level where lots of liberal teachers preach that blue collar workers are nothing but a bunch of dumb hicks that are not smart enough to find something better.
Truth be told lots of the blue collar work today requires ether at least one advanced degree or months of apprenticeship.
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
I get that there is a high demand for these types of jobs; However, with all the advances in AI and robotics, are skilled trades going to be viable careers in the next 20 years? I think a lot of jobs are going to continue to be outsourced or automated. I know several people whose jobs got replaced by robotics or software.
... and then send them to public schools and college to get a job later? Whatever happened to entrepreneurship and starting one's own business?
Get an electrical, civil, or mechanical engineering degree. Best of all worlds... In some states, this cuts years off the apprenticeship time needed to become a tradesman like an electrician, plumber, or general contractor. You can also go for a PE certification and eventually manage building/renovation sites.
I counsel any young person that is curious to stay out of IT.
Do not get trapped in an office your whole life.
Stay away from IT because it is always understaffed and overworked. Yeah, you make good money but your health goes to shit and your ability to impact is often limited.
I suggest hands-on engineering where you get to go outside and travel to different sites....things like HVAC tech, aircraft engineer, electrician, or something involving industrial controls or construction.
It is very tough to find a good company to work for in IT--have to get lucky. There is no standardized skill verification so you often end up working with a bunch of hacks who poke around in a GUI who have little idea what is going on behind the scenes. Your attempts to fend off disaster go ignored and those who recover from disasters get all the credit--even if they caused it.
If you love tech....make it your own...do your own thing and love it. Stay away from corporations.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
I believe Mike Rowe has been trying to get the US to take notice of this for quite a few years.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
There is nothing preventing someone from pursuing plumbing (or electrical work, or HVAC, etc.) after earning a bachelor's degree. A smart college would create just this sort of program - a combination bachelor's degree in a non-work-specific area (say, medieval theology) with something that directly prepares someone for a job, like plumbing.
In any case, earning a bachelor's degree should be about the long-term opportunities rather than that first job. When the robot plumbers enter the workforce, you'd better have something to support your ability to transition to something else.
But, that still means 81% of people should go to college ( if they have hopes of being a primary provider ).
But Only like 34% of American's are getting bachelors degrees right now (44% for associates+).
Sources: https://www.kff.org/other/stat...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States
Yet, nationwide, three out of 10 high school grads who go to four-year public universities haven't earned degrees within six years, according to the National Student Clearinghouse. At four-year private colleges, that number is more than 1 in 5
soooo, what you're telling us that 70% of public university students and 80% pf private university students successfully complete their degree?
When we lived in Vantucky (Vancouver, WA), the guy who worked the plumbing aisle at the local Home Depot was a journeyman plumber from CA. He was frozen out of the plumber job market in WA because the state is "closed shop" and he didn't want to start over at the apprentice level just to get a friggin' union card.
He gave great advice, though.
That's the reason. Society prized white collars for so long that not being one pushes you towards the "fringe of society" so-to-speak.
"I'm a plumber" gives you raised eyebrows and simple girls no matter how much money you make.
Personally I don't care what someone's job is and I don't want to know - but at the same time I acknowledge I'm part of a minority.
...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
I work as an electrician for a year and a half.
Fuck all that noise. Way too fucking hot. The pay was bad. The hours worse.
The millennial that doesn't like most of the stuff designed for millennials.
We are at a cross-roads in this country--a cross-roads that affects the entire world. I hope that enough of us can turn off the news and decide for ourselves so that we can have the wonderful future that is easily within reach. I wish the US government would take the lead but I don't think it will happen. I have faith in the people though. A couple people own all of the news companies in the US and throughout the world. This is the reason we don't have conversations about improving worker conditions in other countries. This is a key in improving everyone's life and is so easy to do. Yet, people keep throwing their money at these fucking sweatshops and want to pretend they are not taking part in the abuse of others and themselves. These elites who user these issues out of the forum of debate love taxes and they love debt...it keeps them in control. Tax people to death, make them run to the bank to buy anything significant. It is not a hard math problem and we have writings going back thousands of years warning us about this.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
His response:
http://mikerowe.com/2018/04/ot...
And interested students have until June 4th to submit an application for a scholarship from his foundation:
http://profoundlydisconnected....
It's also worth mentioning that he's been on This Old House this last season, as they've added apprenticing to the shows (which I really like, as they have someone to ask questions about why they're doing something) :
https://www.thisoldhouse.com/i...
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
$50k/yr in Seattle in 2018 is not high paying. This is a young guy with no real bills yet. No kid's college fund, parents still alive to help out with the occasional emergency like a totaled car. Not trying to buy a house in a neighborhood with good schools. Etc, etc.
I've read the median needed for a stable middle class life is around $100k. I'm making close to that after 40 years of struggling and I can tell you it's about right. You don't realize how hard it is when you haven't spent the first 20 working years building wealth.
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I don't get why you are not doing what every other nation/sane person is doing: study in a foreign country.
In Germany the fees for a year, e.g. at www.kit.edu, are 3000EUR per year. Depending from what country you come and your financial situation there are waivers for it. Of course most classes will be in German.
But Chinese students obviously have no problem with that. And for an english speaking person, German is a super easy to pick up language.
On the other hand you could study in Netherlands or Denmark where the rules/payments are similar relaxed.
(Of course you have to count with another EUR800 per month for housing, energy and food. Depending on lifestyle even more. But you can work at the university or have a 20h per week job legally)
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
this is brutally hard work. With the exception of a few genetic freaks you're not going to be doing it in your 50s let alone your 60s. And you're not going to be packing away much on $50k in Seattle. Not when you start having kids.
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Cuts years off the apprenticeship, but adds decades to a student loan.
Highschool students today need to be taught how to do cost analysis, so when it comes time to pay for college they understand what they're signing up for.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
The reason for this is the current generation looks down on blue collar work thinking that its beneath them. This myth is propagated by many high schools with the elimination of shop and auto mechanics classes.
No.
The reason for this is protectionist unions. Trades are protected by unions that have trade walls up to prevent people from entering the profession. You should be able to take a practical test and become a plumber or electrician. Instead you have to spend years working with someone who belongs to a group with more power in the union (i.e. someone already in the field which is self-regulating). It's a ridiculous barrier to entry that costs the public a fortune.
Unions have a place. Deliberately hurting consumers and stifling competition in order to raise prices is and should be investigated as an act in restraint of trade under the anti-trust laws.
It doesn't matter that a journeyman plumber can charge $70 an hour. The plumber is RARELY going to have 40 hours of work in a week. If they find 20 hours of work they are doing great. Same with contractors. A contractor can have 8 months of work building a house or doing a total renovation followed by 6 months of no work at all. It's wildly unpredictable work. An office drone goes in and does his 40-50 hours and collects his salary like clockwork every week. He doesn't need to worry about any union shop finding him sufficient hours. Now some people are very good at finding business and are the exception to this rule and are always busy but its an endless hustle and why no one in the trades wishes the same job on their kids.
Blue collar jobs like that are really hard friggin' work. Really hard work. There is a reason your grandfather encouraged your father to go to college instead of following in his footsteps. It's because the work really sucks. And if you are injured on the job, disability pays 50% what you were making and you don't have an education or skills to fall back on anything else. And you will lose your health care. And retirement plan.
These jobs suck. Go to college.
...a college degree becoming the modern day equivalent of the High School diploma of years past. Our society knows primary school is trash taught mostly by failures and underachievers whose underlying motivation is to make everyone feel as bad as they do and perform as badly as they have. Their greatest success is convincing us we need them in order to learn. I don't know what the solution is but I know what the problem looks like.
A lot of people like to dismiss a college education as too abstract, overly intellectual, etc. and it can be. But, skilled trades have a tendency to have a pay cap and less room for upward mobility once you hit it. In fact, unless you're in a strong-union state and are working for union employers, there's bound to be downward pressure on wages from people who are willing to work for less. Unionized trade jobs are the only ones where you have a chance at a full career's worth of compensation progression.
Both a college degree and a trip through trade school/apprenticeship are lottery tickets for life. You can only buy one, hoping it will pay off, and it doesn't for everyone. Some plumbers/electricians make more than I do and own a business that allows them way more financial freedom than I have. Some are stuck in the equivalent of gig-economy world doing handyman-type jobs. And, some people graduate from college and end up doing very well...while others either drop out or don't pick up any marketable skills along the way. (If you really win the education lottery and get into an Ivy League school, there are opportunities that just aren't available to anyone else such as investment banking and management consulting...and once you're in that club you can't really fail too badly.)
Given the choice, I'd still choose to do a bachelors' degree. Unless you're going into academics, anything more is too much. I barely use any of my formal education in my job (BS in chemistry, and i do systems engineering work.) But it did get me in the door, and it's essentially the minimum standard now for all non-trade jobs. One thing I do think post-secondary education helps with is maturing kids to a certain degree. A stint in the military would do this too, and maybe a good apprenticeship program would. But, having a bridge from childhood to adulthood where you're allowed to make a few stupid mistakes that aren't life-altering can be a good thing.
A friend of mine with a view of Cincinnati, the head of a large department, in a brand new building, working for one of the world's most corrupt and stable companies (GE), sees the tug boats floating down the Ohio river and wondered what his life would have been like as a tug boat driver. He hates his job. Very well paid.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
Yet, nationwide, three out of 10 high school grads who go to four-year public universities haven't earned degrees within six years
So that means there should be plenty of young people available to go into skilled trades.
The problem is the same reason those trades are "High-paying" - because the supply of trained people is kept artificially low in order to keep the pay up.
This is a valid observation. Should have been modded up.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
This happens in IT contracting too. I've avoided it for that reason, but contractors I've worked with love the higher pay and freedom. The huge downside is the feast-or-famine nature, and constantly having to hustle your next job. If you can't sell, it doesn't matter how much of a rockstar you are.
Public universities are cheap in the states that care more about education than sports. You can go to CUNY or SUNY for about $7500/yr, less if you get an Empire Scholarship. Given a job for a year or two out of college, this pays off quickly.
My family (both blood and marriage) has multiple trades people. A good lot of them tend to get put on suspension and have to draw from unemployment for multiple months during the slow seasons. The ones that are gainfully employed year-round make about as much as I make, but when they're 50 or so they're seeing chiropractors, doctors, and are dealing with a variety of health issues.
College also has prepared me by exposing me to more general forms of knowledge. Philosophy, basic finance, mathematics, and how to do research and communicate and validate. It's been my own personal anecdotal experience that these tradesmen are often the easy targets of misinformation. They often believe in crap like Alex Jones, health supplements (delaying their medical care because of "big pharma" by using bullshit like rose hips or whatever), and live in this fear that "ALL gubbermint is bad" and blah blah blah.
They're highly trained and skilled at a very specific specialty. But generally have little to no capacity to learn outside of that specialty, because they generally weren't ever taught how to THINK like an academic.
People will now start advocating that kids go to these jobs, then, a few years from now, complain how many people are going to lose their jobs to machines, and why are people not going to STEM which is very important, and all kinds of other stuff that people enjoy complaining about.
but the problem is lots of companies have this "must have BS in CS" to even consider a resume
Really? Here is what one of those SUNY schools says is the per-year cost. It is approx $21K (n-state). An Empire scholarship will only cover the 'tuition' portion. Out of state students pay about $10K/year more.
This isn't helped at the university level where lots of liberal teachers preach that blue collar workers are nothing but a bunch of dumb hicks that are not smart enough to find something better.
Sorry but this is utterly wrong. First, at the university level you have professors, not teachers, and secondly, I have never once, nor heard any of my colleagues, ever disparage blue collar work. Indeed as researchers, we often work alongside those skilled in the trades because they have the skills we academics lack that are needed to build research equipment and apparatus. I would say that we view them as equals with a different, but just as useful, skillset than our own.
The other reason that you are wrong is that your logic fails to explain why high school leavers are avoiding the trades. Even if students encountered negative attitudes to the trades at University (which I strongly dispute) by this point they have already made their decision to go to University so it would have no appreciable effect on the numbers that choose to go to university vs the trades.
I suspect that it's a little of both -- higher ups think that good schools are only about metric, but you're right in that vocational classes (shop, automotive, printing, home ec) cost a hell of a lot more to start and operate vs. a "normal" classroom:
I would *love* to see more vo-tech classes. I'm pretty sure that most "core" classes could be centered around cooking classes (reading, math, chemistry, physics, history, geography, health). Writing is the only strange one (food blogging? writing clear recipes?) and if they still teach civics (rice vs. wheat cultures?)
I do agree that 'indoctrination' is blatant over reach. Unless of course that you consider that the school system was set up in some areas so that factories had a supply of capable drones, and we had citizens with skills so they didn't become a burden on society.
My only reluctance towards bringing back votech classes today is that with today's American teaching style (stressing out the kids) and without stable families, you have many more disruptive kids than when I was in school 25+ years ago. The kids who could most benefit from votech (lower income neighborhoods) are more likely to believe that education isn't important and thus more detached from class. You get someone disruptive in a votech class, and you now have a disruptive kid with access to weapons.
What I *have* heard about is high schools that are attached to senior centers; they tend to have a calming effect (scared of your grandmother finding out what you've done?), and it'd be a great way for retirees to pass down their knowledge to a new generation.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
So what if there are jobs? The machines have already claimed them.
If the water is rising, you don't care - and should not care - if there's plenty of space on the rung, you climb to a higher rung. If you need to keep on climbing to find one with room, then you keep on climbing until you find one with room.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
you need one foreman for a couple dozen guys. The only time your hypothetical plumber is needed is for a big job. Small jobs the young guys can estimate. Now, if the country and economy were expanding a ton you might have a point. But we're just not building very much anymore. To be blunt, we're not doing much of anything besides giving rich people tax cuts and new ways to do the Dutch Sandwich.
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They do so with crushing debt and take advice from the "Betty Crocker" of the student loan refi industry.
Is it any wonder business is now making the complaint about college grads they used ot make about high school grads... "Lacking in basic skills"?
Remember this crap happened to all the Electronics Techs out there?
BILLIONS spent to flood the market with diploma-mill techs?
Wages bombed and THEN, as the 70's entrants were reaching their 50's, whole business to India.
Now the drones have learned to say "Fuck that" to short term, high work, low pay (eventually) jobs and industrial Capitalists are screaming that wages are too high
Sure. I get it. You, too, can be an iron worker while your buddies go to college. (You better not be afraid of heights, but still.) A lot of the trades pay well. Hell, my barber makes $90.00 an hour. It's possible to do well, but if "doing well" means working at a 40 hour a week job all your life so you, too, can make $60K as a high school graduate, then I think some serious points are being missed. The attitude is myopic because it concentrates on "getting a job" and near-term gains.
That kind of thing happened to me. I did a very stupid thing. I got a B.A. in anthropology. While it was interesting, it has an even lesser market value than an English degree. I managed to get a minimum wage job at a bookstore. Things didn't go well for several years. But because I was literate and could write, things turned around. I got one of the first Apple ][ computers in the world, learned to program it, and went on from there with a career in IT that allowed me to comfortably retire at 55 with enough funding to do whatever I wanted. I was the only one in my peer group to attend college. My friends went into the trades. But look at them now. If they're lucky they are on disability. If not, they can't retire and now struggle. The tradesman lifestyle has not been kind to them. Meanwhile I bought a new corvette for cash and still have plenty of money for the nursing home--eventually. (I'd rather die of a heart attack. I'm just trying to be responsible.)
It's not that a trades profession cannot get you a "high paying" job, it's just that this is not looking up enough. What you want is to increase your net worth enough to set yourself up. If you think of "work" as an hourly wage, you'll be thinking $30.00 an hour is big money when you ought to be thinking $300K in the bank tax paid is a good start. And even if you have a useless B.A. in liberal arts like anthropology, you are still set up to get to graduate school and a decent profession instead of wallow in the trades from year to year. You have versatility where someone in the trades faces such an uphill battle that they literally will never get there.
So where i understand the lure of "big money" trades, a little patience and early sacrifice will allow you to do better for the long haul.
How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
Film at 11.
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
What I've seen a lot of in the Northeastern U.S. is that people get that skilled trades have shortages, and people aren't looking down on them as "lesser" jobs. But the younger generation is more likely than ever to have been raised on staying indoors most of the time, in climate controlled settings, doing things like playing video games when not in school itself.
When you propose to them the idea of working in a field like construction, where you might be outdoors all day doing physical labor and dealing with bugs/insects, plus hot, cold or rainy conditions? They say, "Thanks, but no thanks." And plumbing? No matter how much it pays, there will always be a relative shortage of plumbers because it's literally a dirty job. You're going to get called to do a lot of the work that homeowners were too grossed out to attempt to do themselves, like crawling into a mucky, dark crawlspace under a house to fix a broken pipe in close quarters. Even replacing toilets is pretty disgusting, given the conditions a lot of bathrooms are kept in. There are some real health risks involved with all the sewage they come in contact with too.
I've noticed that you're more likely to find available electricians, by contrast. Probably because they get to do a lot more work indoors and electrical wiring is a lot less gross/dirty than sewer lines or rotting wood with a hornet's nest by it.
Some of these skilled labor jobs are honestly just ones I look at myself and say, "That guy earns EVERY PENNY of whatever he charges." The guy who did my roofing repairs recently was one of them. My roof has a steep slope that makes it dangerous to crawl around on it. I know some of the larger firms won't even touch it unless I pay thousands extra for them to put full scaffolding up first. But this guy just took his ladder and skillfully used it to move from level to level, crawling around like a spider monkey, and got everything caulked up, shingles replaced that were missing, etc. This was in the cold, and while it started to rain AND get dark. He just took out a flashlight and kept going.
Yeah, tuition and fees are about $7500-$8500/yr. What's the big deal about living at home and commuting or renting a cheap room? No one needs to live on campus.
There isn't a sane state. They are all crazy. Red. Blue. Doesn't matter. Our govs works on two extremes with no middle ground.
The millennial that doesn't like most of the stuff designed for millennials.
That's not a high paying job.....
Now, if I can make 6 figures a year plumbing, I truly might consider dropping out of IT and doing that....less stress, and more exercise.
You know...last time I had to get a plumber, with what I paid, it could mean a 6 figure income!?!?!
SO, need to look into that, but apparently not Ironworker like the article mentioned, that's not much money annually....
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
A report from Washington State on wages is hardly something to apply nationally (disclaimer: I live there). Sure, entry level IT jobs start at$70-$80K, up through $150K for the right gigs - but you can't live within 2 hours of Seattle for less than a $700K house. Housing has increased 12.6% annually over the past 3 years pricing most potential home buyers out of the market. Factor in 43% tax increases during that same period is pushing fixed/low income people out of their homes.
As far as using construction workers as a future job model - next recession, (and we're overdue by 2 years) construction workers will be sitting on their butts again for a couple years. That's a feast or famine job best avoided. Trades related to construction like HVAC and electrical wiring - things that need hands on and certifications - will always be a good bet.
Nationally - there's a problem filling first law enforcement / fire fighter jobs. Kids can't pass background checks and don't have the mental toughness for the gigs. An average cop around here makes (c) $90K per year.
It's also true that high schools are telling kids you have to get a degree to scrub toilets. That's silly, irritating, down right wrong, and demeaning of degree programs. Keep in mind who preaches it (teachers) and what their motivations might be. (I believe they're mostly under paid, but they chose the career)
You can go to CUNY or SUNY for about $7500/yr, less if you get an Empire Scholarship.
But you'd have to go to New York.
Fuck that.
You are, buddy. Don't let anyone tell you different. Stay strong, and never back down.
You are welcome on my lawn.
You might call it fake news, but one man who did a heck of a lot of research into this and turned it into a series of very successful TV shows has actually set up a scholarship program around it.
http://profoundlydisconnected.com/
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
https://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_cha...
IMO the most important thing is to choose a career in a field you'll enjoy. You'll probably be doing it a long time. If you enjoy it, you should do well. If it's a drag, you are in for a long life of drudgery that will result in poor performance and commensurate low earnings.
I'm assuming other states have similar public school tuitions. U of Maryland is known to be cheap in-state. Also, NY is a big state.
CUNY, off-campus, you take the subway, but you probably have an unlimited Metrocard anyway. "Other" fees are about $200/semester. Books, you can buy used or get bootleg .pdfs.
At 41, I have aged out of Information Technology and I am finding my career at a cross-roads. I can go back and train for a new career as an Automotive Technician for about 10,500.00 at the local community college. If I study hard and earn a GPA above 3.5, I can even go to manufacturer-sponsored training which would give me a salary about as high as a senior systems administrator, my previous role. One of the teachers in the program said that the high-end dealerships like people in similar situations as me because we know how to talk to the customer on a professional and educated level. He said that oftentimes that people in my circumstances often start out at higher salaries. Part of me wishes I could remain in IT but I am not getting call backs on resumes that I put out and I am basically ignored for all but the craigslist jobs. The craigslist jobs pay less than average with larger amounts of workload.
If you don't have a four year degree it doesn't matter what you know, people will treat you like shit. Ask me how I know with my 2 year degree.
You do have to be willing to perform physical labor and work fairly hard. There can be distinct health benefits in having an active job. Sedentary jobs often lead to chronic health problems. Of course, physical labor can cause health problems later in life too. If you're willing to work hard and smart, there can be a good role for someone in a trade. I have already registered for my local community college's automotive program because it makes sense for me. As an ex-IT guy, I have a strong head for, and background in, troubleshooting. This puts me a leg up on some of the other students. I just have to learn how to use hand tools effectively and work with mechanical systems which can be done with effort and dedication.
...a college degree becoming the modern day equivalent of the High School diploma of years past. Our society knows primary school is trash taught mostly by failures and underachievers whose underlying motivation is to make everyone feel as bad as they do and perform as badly as they have. Their greatest success is convincing us we need them in order to learn. I don't know what the solution is but I know what the problem looks like.
The reason public education is failing, especially in deep red states, is that the first budget cuts hit education. If you're unwilling to spend money, then it is unreasonable to expect quality education. As with anything, more money generally means higher quality. More money will attract higher quality teaching and administrative staff. More money brings in better learning materials. Education ranks pretty low amongst the conservative element of our society. Finally, Kentucky's Republican teachers woke up and realized that they are voting in to office, the very people that are hurting them.
This article mentioned "High Paying" jobs...and then said they only get about $50K/yr?
That's not a high paying job.....
Now, if I can make 6 figures a year plumbing, I truly might consider dropping out of IT and doing that....less stress, and more exercise.
You know...last time I had to get a plumber, with what I paid, it could mean a 6 figure income!?!?!
SO, need to look into that, but apparently not Ironworker like the article mentioned, that's not much money annually....
$50,000 to start, being paid for training, paid to get whatever certs/licenses necessary, often in a union with full benefits including a pension, starting 4 years earlier than a typical college grad, starting with assets instead of debt, and actually having options to move upward.
Oh, and most of these jobs will never go away. People are going to need physical buildings, plumbing, wiring, etc. far longer than they'll need any app, phone, service, website, trinket, gadget, etc.
I'm a certified journeyman in my field.
To get there, I had to fund my own college education, because there aren't really many apprenticeship jobs out there. Companies want someone with tons of experience, but they're not willing to invest in making them.
I work with other journeymen, and I even have a pair of apprentices. They had to do the same thing I did -- They paid their own way through college to get the credentials to get anyone to look at them for a job in the trades.
This is going to continue, and I'm going to continue to make ever more ludicrous money, as long as companies are short-sighted and all insist on trying to fight over a dwindling number of 65 year old tradesmen without raising any apprentices up behind them.
If you compare the cumulative lifetime earnings, net of education costs, of a plumber to a dentist, the dentist does not come out ahead until his mid-40s! And if the plumber has his own business by then (a "two truck business"), the dentist never comes out ahead. The best you can say is that a dentist is more likely to become a successful small business owner than a plumber, but if you adjusted for IQ I'm not even sure that's true.
This is because it takes so many years, and costs so much, for a dentist to get to the point where he is past all his education and apprenticeship, compared to a plumber. The dentist only really starts raking it in once he has his own practice - that is, when he becomes a small business owner.
It's much worse for lawyers, as most lawyers leave the field within 10 years (if you work at a law firm, you have about 10 years to become a successful salesmen, bringing in large clients to the firm, or you're out).
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
It's simple: No one wants to work in the trades anymore.
It's hard work, you get completely wonky hours and you are expected to go at anytime.
You are always in the field and you may not get a break, plus long hours.
ALSO, in some areas (like where I am, Manitoba) no one can even get into the trades because no one will accept new apprentices - the wait list is literally a few years long. That instantly makes it not worth it, as you can go right back into school and get another degree or certification in that time in another area.
Why would anyone want to wait 'years' to get an apprentice, just to get wonky hours, long hours, and being expected to go at all hours of the day. It simply is 100% not worth it.
so it's not a waste of time. Bottom line, employers require a degree so that they can go running to Congress for more H1-Bs with the cry "But there's not enough qualified applicants!". And it works, too.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
An EE or ME degree is _way_ more training than you need even to be a journeyman. I apprenticed as an electrician for a bit before going back into IT and you just worked your way up. An EE or ME is for large scale factory work, basic science and other advanced jobs.
Now, that said I work with several EE and ME engineers who couldn't find work in their fields. There aren't a lot of jobs doing basic science since we cut all the government funding and it was never really the private sector who did that sort of thing. And we shipped all the factories overseas so there's no much high end factory work for them (e.g. running the production line). Hell, that's half the problem with finding a good IT job (the other half is H1-Bs & oursourcing). Your competing with EE and ME guys for code monkeying.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
it's called the H2-B visa.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
want college & vocational schools free. Bernie's New Deal, where everybody who wants to work gets a job at $15/hr with benefits, is another extension of this. It's 2018, we should be able to do this by now.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Physical labor can be healthy, but there's also the issue of occupational exposure to toxins. Solvents, lead from plumbing, oils, greases, hydraulic fluids, fuel.
Middle classes hate paying for tradesmen, know what they earn, yet are still fine with their kids racking up huge bills to do a shitty degree in Humanities - because it's the middle class thing to do.
3-D and prefab buildings are already here and will scale nicely. I favor the trades as well but there is virtually no industry which won't be ravaged by automation.
Only I can judge you.
What do lawyers who leave the field leave to do? Politician is a common one, but I'm guessing they don't become plumbers but go into something rather more lucrative.
Only I can judge you.
Yeah, they almost got me cause they advertised with a Black guy teaching some econ course. Something seemed fishy though and I researched them a bit. They are exactly what you say they are.
Only I can judge you.
Not sure why you think a trade job doesn't have job security. They tend to be the most secure jobs out there. People will always need their car worked on or their plumbing fixed.
Some days I get the sinking feeling Orwell was an optimist.
You forgot money to eat. Gas for the car. Things like that.
Even at a state school you'll be looking at $30k a year, assuming you share an apartment, drive a POS, and eat a lot of ramen.
Yeah, tuition and fees are about $7500-$8500/yr. What's the big deal about living at home and commuting or renting a cheap room? No one needs to live on campus.
Let's do the math:
If you rent a cheap room for $400 a month + $100 a month in utilities (remember, winters in NY get COLD) it's $6k a year.
If you spend another $200 in groceries a month? $2.4k a year
Car insurance? $100 / month. Gas? $80 / month? Total: $2.1k a year
So just adding in just a little bit of extra stuff to live off of, we add almost $9k to the total.
The truth is you'll probably want to spend more than that, because you'll want to see a movie every now and then, have to pay for books, or maybe software or a computer for your studies.
It all easily adds up, which is how even people from a state school come out with $100k+ in student loans after 4 years.
(Disclaimer: IAANY -- I Am A New Yorker, you'll be hard pressed to meet some of those numbers even in someplace in the sticks like SUNY Oneonta)
You're 18. Keep living with mum and dad for another few years while you go to university. Work part-time. Pay for food/rent if needed. That's the way many people in NYC do it since housing is expensive and university is cheap/free.
Which is why many CUNY students live with mom and dad until they're done... and nothing wrong with that.
Many plumbers work in construction, great when there's a building boom, shitty when there isn't. Even the number of mechanics seems to be dropping. Remember when every gas station had a mechanic? That was partially due to cars that needed fixing a lot more then now and eventually with the move to electric cars they'll be a lot less call for mechanics.
As usual, if you're really good at what you do or have the kind of personality that allows you to form your own successful business, you might have stable employment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
Like big pharma, big agriculture, and all the other "big" industries. Big "college" has gotten to the point, the degrees are worthless. With "everyone" going in debt 40,50 thousand or more, there is a GLUT of college graduates. Not only that, they are in degrees to which there are not enough jobs, depressing wages, but, the university "system" gets fat. Kids are convinced by others that you can't get anywhere without a 4 year college education. Bunch of BS. I got an associates in electronics in 1980. I've NEVER been unemployed or under employed. Came out completely debt free with a good paying job (for 1980 wages) with Texas Instruments. These kids are getting hood winked into this crappy college debt, then can't figure out how to pay for rent/mortgage, debt, food, utilities and on and on.
Nice try, there's not anything a liberal politician has touched that hasn't gotten worse. All the shitbag cities are ran by libs for years. What they have been successful in doing is installing the atheist religion in schools and enacting programs of Earth sadness for our children. I hope the first thing AI replaces is teachers. I'd vote for that.
LGBT are not wanted in Trades in Canada or United States. I am Transgender and hopefully this fall I am going to College for some type of Engineering. I would love to work as a Mechanic in fact after I left trade school I learned from one of the old Masters how to fix cars. I tried to join the IBEW to become an electrician and my car was run off the road, and I was told to "fuck off faggot or the next time we will kill you." If you are wondering why I did not go to the police after that. the reason is simple I had had my brake lines on my car cut and when I called the police I was told your a fag wearing a dress what do you expect.
Canada and the United States hate queers, it was getting better, but under Trump and Pence it is getting worse. Even here in Canada Trump's and Pence's Anti-LBGT rhetoric is having an effect. I f you are LGBT your best hope is in medicine, trades are to be avoided as even if you get a job you will be accident-ed in less than three months.
To err is to be human, to really screw up takes a computer and a human.
I know it's not popular to call people out for that, we're supposed to be nice and respect their free speech
Not respecting free speech is free speech so it's ok. It's one of those things like intolerance. You can never complain about it because doing so makes you guilty of it.
Which assumes you have a mom and dad to live with locally, or that your parents are willing and able to support you.
I'm assuming other states have similar public school tuitions. U of Maryland is known to be cheap in-state. Also, NY is a big state.
Maryland? Shit. You might as well go to NY. Same fucking difference.
That isn't the best of all worlds, it's the worst! That's four years of debt to skip an apprenticeship and maybe some journeyman stuff vs. four years of earning a good wage going through the apprenticeship, at which point they can start working on the engineering degree at night and pay for it out of pocket instead of taking on debt.
But there are social agendas at play. Plus lousy school systems trying to cover up how lousy they are by graduating underprepared students.
http://www.sacbee.com/news/pol...
If you read through the article, you'll find that California's "fix" is to cover up the problem by merging the remedial courses into freshman classes so the unprepared students can get credits despite not being ready to graduate high school. Which is where the real problem lies, colleges are just being used to cover it up. At great public expense, since the law of supply and demand means costs are being increased for the students that are college-ready.
Students that aren't prepared for college-level work shouldn't be in college. They should probably still be in high school.
Do you know any plumbers? I do, and they all work this way.
love is just extroverted narcissism
What is your ideal state, then? Mississippi? Old Miss is $8000/yr tuition, and cost-of-living is likely to be pretty low. Personally, I'd go with the opportunities that a more populated state has over a rural one, but hey, that's me.
No, it's dead on.
Best advice to your high schooler:
If you really wanna go to college, put off buying a house for 10 years after graduation.
If you want to earn money without debt;
- If you don't mind being wet, be a plumber.
- If you don't mind being dirty, be an auto tech. This is going to get cleaner.
- Otherwise, be an electrician.
- Or, if you like people, go into medical technology.
All of these can be obtained via community college/tech school, and some can be apprenticeships, where you can get paid to train. And there is no end in sight for the need for plumbers, electricians, or medical techs. Auto tech is going to change dramatically over the next 20 years, and if you get in in the next 10 you're golden.
Everything a BA is qualified for out of college is a target for automation or being turned into software, and delivered from anywhere on the globe. No, you can't move there, you're not software.
IT and CS degrees still have some value, and the military is still an option if it's to your taste. But that Liberal Arts degree is going to be useful for a smaller and smaller set of occupations, until we figure out how to make creative the new manufacturing, and make it profitable. Globally.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
You both ought to show your UID. 'Him' first.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
As usual no numbers, no numbers as a percentage, and significance as again we have headline hungry news. This is also a red flag that wonders how these "We Don't Have Enough To Fill Jogs" articles cycle in and out of the media. Disneyland in Florida solved this problem With HB1 Visas where those fired were told they had to train the foreigners before they were let go. Not to mention how the Tech Industry has exploited this stuff. They weirdest back fire in this is the farmers that voted for Trump are crying about a labor shortage also.
Many plumbers work in construction, great when there's a building boom, shitty when there isn't. Even the number of mechanics seems to be dropping. Remember when every gas station had a mechanic? That was partially due to cars that needed fixing a lot more then now and eventually with the move to electric cars they'll be a lot less call for mechanics. As usual, if you're really good at what you do or have the kind of personality that allows you to form your own successful business, you might have stable employment.
Make certain you go to University and get hat Liberal Arts degree. Thos degrees have a good track record of stable secure jobs.
In the fast food and retail outlet industries.
Next time you need a plumber, call a Philosophy or Gender studies major.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
No, it's dead on.
Best advice to your high schooler:
If you really wanna go to college, put off buying a house for 10 years after graduation.
If you want to earn money without debt;
- If you don't mind being wet, be a plumber. - If you don't mind being dirty, be an auto tech. This is going to get cleaner. - Otherwise, be an electrician.
Wanna pull in some bucks? Become a machinist. A master machinist is pulling down a nice salary. And the knowledge is a rough equivalent of a Master's degree, except it's earned over time, and you get paid well while you are earning it.
The problem unfortunately is the long lived idea that unless you have that college degree - any degree at all, you are elite, much better than those neanderthals who were so stupid that they had to become a mason or plumber or technician of any sort.
Way back in High School, I decided that I would take a double major, Adademic path as well as Electronics at the County Trade school. It was difficult juggling all the requirements of both. I never had a study hall or lunch in high school. and all kind of weird things happened like I had to skip one year of Physical-ed, then my senior year I had it every day.
But I recall my guidance counsellor continually trying to get me to drop the Technical part and go straight Academic path. Then I even got pulled out of class to meet with the Principle. "You're a really smart boy, Ol - people are going to think you're stupid if you go to "Tech school". But I didn't listen.
Best decision I ever made. By the time I entered the work force I could support myself, and then have my college education mostly paid for by my employer. I could perform both academic and practical functions.
The biggest thing it taught me was that the so called smart people, who were soooo smart about matters of education, were actually lame ass clones. Turned me into a skeptic about most everything.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
You are, buddy. Don't let anyone tell you different. Stay strong, and never back down.
Oh - I thought he meant do-do 'er.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Actually that is more the fault of car manufactures making it super difficult to repair their stuff. This eliminates most smaller auto shops, unless they pay a ridiculous amount to become an authorized repair center, which only then they get all of the proper service manuals and diagnostic codes. This mostly limits repairs to dealerships, unless it's more simple tasks like flushing air conditioners, fixing power steering, air filter change and oil change.
Most cars could be much more easily fixed back then and it paid to have a mechanic to replace a belt or make an adjustment or two.
Now days there's too much specialized computer shit that requires computers to fix. In my mind a car that can't be fixed on the side of the road is less reliable than one that requires a full bay and thousands to repair.
I will be keeping my older cars thank you!
~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
Generally not-very-lucrative white-collar administrative work. It's the dirty secret of the profession. I know two people who went through hat - one works crap jobs now, the other started her own firm (she specialized in doing evictions during the last real estate bust, so that turned out OK for her given the huge demand at the time, but odds were low).
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
You're either really stupid and you have no idea what kinds of jobs are available, and just how inexpensive you can get an education for, or are trying to justify the fact that you borrowed too much money to pay for your education, which would also make you stupid.
Pro tip: You don't need to go to an expensive university. I went to community college, got a CCNP R&S, and transferred 90 of those credits to the least expensive state university just so I could get a token bachelor's degree. After FAFSA, a few automatic college grants that were based on FAFSA, my tuition was covered about 105% (yes, I profited.) I also got grants that required having only a 3.5 GPA (out of 4) and doing some extra project, and the rest from winning 3 different contests involving networking technical skills that doled out $1k each. My total costs for all of this were a net negative of somewhere around $6,000.
After 3 years of graduating, I was already making $76k annually, and I never borrowed a cent. I've always thought borrowing money is stupid, in fact I don't plan on ever getting a mortgage, rather I'm saving and investing 50% of my income.
See subject: Ol Olsoc you EAT "do-do" after your false accusation I don't write my code https://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=9875023&cid=53281611/ and you are obviously a Zontar The Mindless sockpuppet appearing in a thread where he is too (go figure since you're KNOWN to make sockpuppets to troll me Zontar https://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=5038387&cid=46782891/ by your own admission).
* You FAIL fool... busted.
APK
P.S.=> Your dull "ne'er-do-well" easily out-thought brains make me laugh... apk
Life is long and hard, little anonymous coward. It's even longer and harder when you suffer from metastasis of the humor gland. Bummer that.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
When most people realize they are talking to the mentally unstable, we generally feel bad for you and the people who should be looking after you. Before that, they just think you're a dumb, rascist piece of shit.
When I keep reading you say, "ne'er-do-well', I keep wondering what fucking century do you think you're in. Who the fuck still talks that way?
By a 1,000 cuts your kind bring on themselves hiding behind a 1,000 sockpuppet fake names blown away https://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=12036901&cid=56515965/ Big humor I am LAUGHING @ U for!
APK
P.S.=> Soyboy INFERIOR one, go away - for your own good. Think I ENJOY blowing you & yours away using your fuckups against you? LOL , guess what?? I do, lol - thanks... apk
Meth is bad m'kay?
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
yeah, and the car is the same next year as last year...oh, wait, NO
In the marketing and Decision support industries especially, Liberal Arts dominate.
Because, you know, English.
A master machinist? How do you become one, with automated machining being the norm?
Oh, wait, can't.
Of course you do.Eventually someone makes the thing that makes the thing. Machinist is a thriving trade.
If that's not making sense, then be a welder.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Funny enough, a while back, there was a study, looking at Canada, that even a Liberal Arts Education usually resulted in better pay then not having one. It was something like $80k with a good degree, $60k with a lousy degree and $40k with no degree.
A lot of people forget that the arts used to cover a lot of subjects, basically everything that wasn't covered by science. You can look at the US Constitution where they updated the reason for copyright from the original "For the advancement of learning" to "the arts and sciences".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
There's a lot of truth in that, and it is getting worst, but at the same time, things like points have gone away, spark plugs can last a 100,000 miles and so on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
Unluckily my last non-computerized vehicle rusted away and now that I'm driving a '91, things break that can't be fixed on the side of the road. This is partially due to being a Ford, which I'd swear was engineered to be hard to fix. Last thing I did was a fuel pump. Stupid thing is in the tank and the tank was an inch bigger then the hole in the frame that it had to dropped out of. Before it was the clutch slave cylinder, which they helpfully put inside the bell housing. Before that it was a wiring problem in the brake lights, they helpfully ran the wire up and down the steering column, through the little u-joint.
I dread getting anything newer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
See subject & now that you made a mistake posting via your "registered luser" FAKE NAME? EAT https://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=10557875&cid=54347839/ & tell us - how did EATING YOUR WORDS taste?
* RoTfLmAo...
(A wee bit like your FOOT in your MOUTH bitch? Washed down w/ a bitter taste of SELF defeat? LOL, yes).
APK
P.S.=> SILENCE imbecile & have manners & do NOT talk while you EAT bitch, lol... apk
See my subject & letting you f yourself dumbass https://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=9875023&cid=53281611/ you inferior moron.
* Don't try "patronize" me BOY when I can show you are less than ZERO fucker... easily.
APK
P.S.=> Your DIM brains are blatantly inferior evidenced by your FAKE NAMES online for FAKE lives of being "ne'er-do-well" scum having the AUDACITY to even TRY "F" w/ me & ones like you you INFERIOR swine as I cast PEARLS before SWINE like you... apk
You know - one of the things that I really enjoy, is trolling the living diarrhea out of people like you. I can envision your blood pressure rising, face red. spittle flecks on your screen and keyboard. MEanwhile I relax with a nice flavored seltzer water. But honey - you're slipping and your troll game is getting a little shabby and rookie-like. . Step it up before I get bored with you and start ignoring you.
tl;dr.....Up your game, noob! Serve me my Friday entertainment.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
In the marketing and Decision support industries especially, Liberal Arts dominate. Because, you know, English.
While I can't vouch for the numbers of employees, the pay certainly stinks
https://www.shrm.org/Resources...
http://work.chron.com/median-s...
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
So that's why we have such terrible decisions being made. Stupid people making them.
A master machinist? How do you become one, with automated machining being the norm? Oh, wait, can't.
Are you a High School guidance counselor. You have a very skewed 1980's outlook. That machine needs programmed, and they need watched over. We have a lot of machinists, they are proficient in dozens of machines. And occasionally you have to turn out a part in the old fashioned way. You need to visit a modern Machine shop. Many people working, and just because they wear. jeans and work shirts doesn't mean they are stupid and low class, or worth less than the drones in Human resources who have to "dress for success". Worth much much more in fact.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Of course you do.Eventually someone makes the thing that makes the thing. Machinist is a thriving trade.
If that's not making sense, then be a welder.
Thriving indeed! I think a lot of Slashdotters might not have ever come to grips with the fact that not everything is computer programming. It's a thriving job, a good job, and given the results of screwing the pooch on a big piece of expensive metal, is a job for dedicated and exacting people. A lot of computer knowledge and expertise on multiple machines needed. I think our AutodidactLabrat friend hasn't found that out yet. He might even be the AC who I'm playing with in a sub-thread here.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Funny enough, a while back, there was a study, looking at Canada, that even a Liberal Arts Education usually resulted in better pay then not having one. It was something like $80k with a good degree, $60k with a lousy degree and $40k with no degree. A lot of people forget that the arts used to cover a lot of subjects, basically everything that wasn't covered by science. You can look at the US Constitution where they updated the reason for copyright from the original "For the advancement of learning" to "the arts and sciences".
Wow- if I had a liberal arts degree, I'd move to Canada. Here it's around 40 K average. If I could get 80 K with a lib Arts, that would make it seriously better than all of the effort you have to put into an engineering degree. The liberal arts students are party hearty, trying to kill their livers, while engineering students are in the library most of the night. The benefits for a hella lot less work are obvious!
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
You misread my comment, the crappy degrees such as liberal arts came in in between no degree and a good degree such as engineering. Kinda makes sense as there are a lot of jobs where they just want some kind of degree that won't actually be used.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
Yeah, most of the stupid people are in business school as Harvard admits only 1/12 are any net value
And that requires a 4 year degree in mechanical engineering
A lathe operator is useless for CNC work.
Harvard is in a special class by themselves. For years the joke was - business going out of business? Must have had at least 50% MBAs from Harvard. They've ruined many companies I've heard over and over through the years.
They make sure that they get big bucks, however.
Sorry, Harvard MBA is still among the most respected in the industry
And the utter worthlessness of the MBA is documented in everything from the 2007 crash debacle to the anti-competitive stance of American industry.
Did you read what you wrote? Most respected in the first line, utterly worthless in the second line?
Well you did get me to laugh. Wanna blow a bunch of money? Hire a Harvard MBA. They do it like nobody else can.
Never the less, I think I'm safe in saying I'll never hire a Harvard MBA. Not even on a bet.
By all means, go with your best choice, say Liberty University.
or maybe Yale
but by ALL means don't go with #1 ranked MBA school Harvard which admits that most MBA grads are worthless at adding value to the corporation.
And that requires a 4 year degree in mechanical engineering A lathe operator is useless for CNC work.
You think that machinists are able to know only one thing? Amazing. You're trolling aren't you?
i must educate you. A college degree is not the final arbiter, the expression of intelligence and competence. In fact, in the grad inflated world of 2018 - that vaunted degree? It is for most majors, merely grades 13 through 16.
To be a machinist today - or yesterday for that matter - requires an indepth and accurate understanding of math and geometry. Not the maths of the preofessional test takers and the crammers, but the kind of math where one tiny mistake on your part can detroy a million dollars in an instant. This is not the job for someone who spent their college years getting "the college experience" and taking majors that amount to giving your opinion.
I've met plenty of not very intelligent liberal arts majors. But never a dumb machineist. So since you're either a troll or just don't take telling, Good day, sir.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Ol Olsoc see subject & you enjoy me showing how dumb you are w/ you defeating yourself https://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=9875023&cid=53281611/ ?
* THANKS (for making ME look GOOD & yourself the FAKE NAME for your FAKE LIFE troll trash you are, admittedly).
APK
P.S.=> You're also projecting how YOU are reacting when I prove how stupid you are in that link above (again, thanks - you just do NOT "get it", do you? I love letting "your kind" (online troll trash that act like bitches) destroy yourselves for me - takes no effort, see link above, lol (which is WHY you "hide" behind FAKE NAMES online))... apk
This folks, is what happens when a person doesn't have both oars in the water.
Seriously though Marilyn, you're getting repetitive. This is your last warning to step up your game. I really don't want to ignore you, but unless you entertain me - I'll have to.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Ol Olsoc see subject: Your bs made you EAT YOUR WORDS & blew you outta the water https://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=9875023&cid=53281611/ easily!
* You made that possible for me & YOU ONLY DID IT TO YOURSELF, lol!
(Lastly: Marilyn? LOL - better than being YOU, 'slapped around "SALLY"' & your libelous lies in that link above that proves you only do THAT to yourself w/ your wasted troll life using a FAKE NAME for your FAKE LIFE online!)
APK
P.S.=> Entertainment? That link above really "triggers" you - lol, I can't PAY for FINER entertainment than seeing a libelous LIAR like you EAT YOUR WORDS, lol... apk
Oh, the sadness. Here you were, given the chance to achieve internet greatness, and you simply blew it. It is a real pity, but in truth, so few are up to the task. So while you have transgreesed into boring me, I'll not hold any ill will against those who are just lacking the tools to be great, and must settle to being with the garden variety trolls.
Work on your content - one does not become a superior troll over night. The lame repetition of the same lame words over and over again shows the limits of your ability.
So really - I don't have time to be bored to tears with ya. Good day, and Yours in Christ Jesus, amen.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Harvard only admits people whose parents are alumni and give large endowments. Ivy leagues are fake schools with fake credentials that are not worth the money.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
So, You think a machinist can do 3D path analysis complete with corner performance brackets?
No, moron, not on a lathe or a mill. Not even once.
Wrong
Just ask the admissions counselor.
And why would the Admissions Counselor be a credible witness in this case?
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Because THOSE people do the math and have the statistics, you have hate.
Under such circumstances you lose.
Statistics is only as good as the source. I have zero reason to trust the source.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Meaning you trust...what, bullshit rightwing spew sites and Faux Noise?
As opposed to, say, Wall Street Journal?
I see the problem
Your recto-cranial intesseption did not include a glass navel.
The Wall Street Journal and Faux News don't take human dignity into account, and both are horribly biased against rural populations.
"diversity" is just skin deep to you, isn't it?
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Human dignity? Biased AGAINST Faux Noise largest base, 68-73 year old rural whites?
Seriously, you live in nowhere
Diversity with white old males holding 99% of the power positions is not diverse.
Like I said- diversity to you is just skin deep. All you can see is skin color, you don't recognize the huge diversity in ethnicity in white people nor do you recognize neuraldiversity nor do you understand the diversity in rural populations.
And yes, old rural farmers may be the biggest base faux has, but that leaves out a TON of other rural populations.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.