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Should the Word 'Milk' Be Used To Describe Nondairy Milk-Alternative Products? (arstechnica.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: The U.S. Food and Drug Administration seems to have soured on nondairy milk-alternative products that use the term "milk" in their marketing and labeling -- like popular soy and almond milk products. In a talk hosted by Politico, FDA Commissioner Scott Gottlieb announced Tuesday that the FDA will soon issue a new guidance on the use of the term. But he added that products aren't abiding by FDA policies as they stand now. He referenced a so-called "standard of identity" policy that regulates how milk is defined and should be identified. "If you look at our standard of identity -- there is a reference somewhere in the standard of identity to a lactating animal," he said. "And, you know, an almond doesn't lactate, I will confess."
He went on to explain that the issue is that the agency hasn't been enforcing its own policy or putting the squeeze on product makers -- and that it's time to get abreast of the labeling language. But, he admitted, curtailing the wording of non-moo juice labeling isn't an easy task because it means that the agency has to change its "regulatory posture." "I can't just do it unilaterally," Gottlieb said. Hence, the agency is putting together a new guidance for manufacturers to help skim the fat from the market. Gottlieb said the agency will soon tap the public for comments on the terminology and hopes to wring out a new policy within a year.
He went on to explain that the issue is that the agency hasn't been enforcing its own policy or putting the squeeze on product makers -- and that it's time to get abreast of the labeling language. But, he admitted, curtailing the wording of non-moo juice labeling isn't an easy task because it means that the agency has to change its "regulatory posture." "I can't just do it unilaterally," Gottlieb said. Hence, the agency is putting together a new guidance for manufacturers to help skim the fat from the market. Gottlieb said the agency will soon tap the public for comments on the terminology and hopes to wring out a new policy within a year.
The 'juice' inside a coconut has always been called milk AFAIR. It's a natural thing to do, to extend the use of a word to cover something 'similar'. We do it all the time, and in the case of these products which are pitched as cow's mile replacements, there seems even more reason to do so.
Time for bed, said Zebedee - boing
If no, then it should not be allowed to describe a non-dairy product.
"Almond Flesh Cocktail"
Its about time that Washington addresses the real problems that are harming Americans.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
that enough of the world's problems have been solved... that we find ourselves having to devote time and energy to "solving" this "problem."
What a time to be alive.
In Soviet Russia jokes are formulaic and decidedly non-humorous.
If its not from a mammary gland, its not milk. Codex Alimentarius already has a defined standard for milk: "the normal mammary secretion of milking animals obtained from one or more milkings without either addition to it or extraction from it, intended for consumption as liquid milk or for further processing."
No one cares what your captcha was
Houston TX, USA
The 'juice' inside a coconut has always been called milk AFAIR. It's a natural thing to do, to extend the use of a word to cover something 'similar'.
It's not similar and just because something has been done a certain way doesn't make it accurate. If it comes from a plant it is by definition not milk. Milk is a substance secreted by mammals to feed their young. If it doesn't come from a mammal it isn't milk. If it comes from a plant it is juice. So the accurate term is coconut juice.
We do it all the time, and in the case of these products which are pitched as cow's mile replacements, there seems even more reason to do so.
Just because something is a substitute doesn't mean you should call it something different than what it actually is. Margarine is (sometimes) a butter substitute but we don't call it butter. If it is a liquid derived from a plant then it is (generally) supposed to be called juice. Nothing wrong with saying coconut juice or soy juice or almond juice. Just coloring something white doesn't make it milk.
oh man, you DO NOT want to know were malk comes from
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
There is no such thing as soy milk... it's soy juice..
Non-dairy milk alternatives have an easy solution. Adopt the midwest's pronunciation and just call it "melk". Easy enough, right?
"And, you know, an almond doesn't lactate, I will confess."
With CRISPR, I'm sure that will change soon enough...
Is there nondairy milk-alternative product in my pasteurized process cheese food?
This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
Why, yes, yes it is.
When someone says, "Any fool can see
Personally, I'd be a little terrified to meet the mammal that secretes milk glass. Fortunately, the FDA probably won't come after that one, as if you're eating milk glass, you have other more serious problems that need immediate attention.
Pound! Bang! Bin! Bash! is this a shell script or a Batman comic?
There needs to be a definition. Something simple like Mammal Mammary Sweat = Milk, Squeezed/Pulped Plant = Juice
I think calling all white liquids that can be swallowed as milk, problematic
Calvin:Do you believe in the devil? Hobbes:I'm not sure man needs the help.
Out of curiosity: What name should we instead give to peanutbutter?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
If it doesn't have pus, steroids, and anti-biotics in it, it's not milk.
Will they have to change the name of milk of magnesia?
(I commented on this six years ago, yet people like you are still yelping "Betteridge's!" at every question-phrased headline without getting it:-)
"No, [Betteridge's law doesn't apply here]. This is an actual, legitimate question.
As I correctly predicted [earlier that same year], lots of Slashdotters have seized upon Betteridge as the latest fad kneejerk response, and are misapplying it without understanding what it means. In his own words, Betteridge's Law applies to cases where journalists "know the story is probably bollocks, and don’t actually have the sources and facts to back it up, but still want to run it."
For example, without the evidence to back it up, a headline saying "Tomato ketchup caused AIDS that led to exitinction of dinosaurs" would be obvious crap and lead to criticism of the paper and/or journalist. OTOH, "Did Tomato ketchup cause AIDS that led to the extinction of the dinosaurs?" gives them the weasellish get-out of "Well, we didn't actually *claim* that it did".
Even then, if a question headline was a genuine attempt to present a plausibly-supported but not universally-accepted idea (possibly because it was new and/or divisive), then Betteridge's wouldn't apply.
In short, Betteridge's original observation was insightful where he claimed it applied, but it was never a blanket dismissal of question headlines, so please stop the tedious, kneejerk misapplication."
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
malk Now With Vitamin R!
This whole thing makes me sick. I'm going to need to take some white juice of magnesia.
Oozy Nut Guts
rewriting history since 2109
"Carob works on the principle that, when mixed with the right combination of fats and sugar, it can duplicate chocolate in color and texture. Of course, the same can be said of dirt." - Sandra Boynton
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
Not really. Food classification has a lot of ramifications on how it is treated in terms of regulations, taxation, global trade...
Such as the 1890 Nix v. Hedden case where a Tomato should be considered a vegetable. Its trading status of a vegetable meant it could be shipped for less, because it was considered a more essential food for trade, vs fruit which is considered more for dessert type foods.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
If they can't call it milk, they should call it "better-than-milk". That should keep the dairy folks happy.
Platypus Milk
rewriting history since 2109
Underground legume paste.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Obviously peanut paste. Now what do we do with toothpaste?
Peanutbutter, it is not peanut butter.
The Milky Way is a millenium old trickery to confuse people about the nature of our Galaxy. This should be stopped! Not only Mars Inc., but astronomers have more recently abused common sense with their Milky Way Bar...
kind of pushing the edge of what makes a story 'round here.
In some countries, Bayer still owns trademarks on "Aspirin" and "Milk of Magnesia". In these countries, the generic name for liquid magnesium hydroxide suspension is "cream of magnesia".
This is a truly stupid argument, but if we truly HAVE to pacify a bunch of sociopathic pedants, how about we define something called an NDMS (Non-Dairy Milk Substitute)? Will THAT make these flakes happy?
Would I put soy-NDMS or almond-NDMS in my coffee? Sure. Occasionally anyway.
If so, we can move on to what to do about Milk of Magnesia.
You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
They have flavored Seltzer Water that we don't call pop. They are technical beers and wines called hard drinks,
If it is from a cow it is called dairy.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Out of curiosity: What name should we instead give to peanutbutter?
I don't see that as a problem since nobody is trying to pretend that peanut butter is somehow a substitute for actual butter. People try all the time to pretend that soy milk and cow's milk are interchangeable when they really aren't.
Also, the word "blog" should not be used for non-diary products.
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
The problem is language is fluid. It's been called coconut milk for centuries. Changing it to coconut juice would be more confusing than leaving it alone.
I think the important thing here is the modifier. As long as you are calling it "Almond Milk" or "Soy Milk" it would be pretty obvious to the average consumer that it isn't dairy milk, especially as the already common term "Coconut Milk" is in use.
Doing this is common in many languages. German is famous for mashing existing words together to make new ones.
My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
Obviously tooth goo.
That's utterly impossible you know...
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
The fact that the dictionary itself can’t even define the non-dairy definition of “milk” without referring to actual milk should tell you something about what the word inherently means. Here’s DuckDuckGo’s suggested definition:
A liquid, such as coconut milk, milkweed sap, plant latex, or various medical emulsions, that is similar to milk in appearance.
But you see the same thing happening in other dictionaries as well, nearly all of which define “milk” in terms of its resemblance to actual milk:
https://www.merriam-webster.co...
https://www.thefreedictionary....
https://medical-dictionary.the...
If you English speaking people can call peanut paste "peanut butter" then I don't see why you couldn't call stuff that resembles milk "milk" ;-)
(Note in Dutch we call it peanut cheese :p)
0x or or snor perron?!
But enough talk! Have at you!
What makes a man? Is it the power in his hands? Is it his quest for glory? Give it all you got, to fight to the top, so we can know your story.
While I agree that "we've always done it this way, so we should keep doing it this way" is not an argument,
Correct.
your entire argument seems to be "because 'we've always done it this way, so we should keep doing it this way' is not an argument, we should not keep doing it that way".
You got yourself twisted up in your knickers there trying to pretend you are smart. We already have a perfectly adequate word for consumable liquids derived from plants. We call it juice. Marketing people keep trying to pretend that plant juice somehow becomes milk if it happens to be (or is made to be) white. If it didn't come from a mammal then it by definition is not milk and no amount of marketing BS will make it so. Call products what they are and life is a lot simpler.
Unless it comes from the mammary gland of a mammal then by definition it is not milk.
Actually, the definition of "milk" includes any liquid resembling the opaque white liquid secreted by mammary glands of female mammals. When you claim that something is so "by definition", maybe you should look it up, just to be sure.
What is a man?
What is a man? Is it being prepared to do the right thing? Whatever the cost? Isn’t that that makes a man?
- For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.
What other verb is so descriptive of providing something of not much value apart from fad hype to consumers at a premium price?
Oh wait, you are referring to the suspension of fat particles in water. Never mind...
Free, as in your money being freed from the confines of your account.
By Definition? The number two definition of milk from Websters is "a liquid resembling milk in appearance: such as a) the latex of a plant b) the contents of an unripe kernel of grain."
Support Right To Repair Legislation.
Shall we decree what we call Coke and Pepsi? Is it "pop", "cola", "soda", "soda pop", "soft drink", or just plain "coke"? My guess is government regulations will mandate it be labeled as "Carbonated water with flavoring".
So, can I have a "Carbonated water with cola flavoring from the Coke Classic recipe with rum" for me and a "cow sourced dairy product that has been reduced to 2% dairy fat, homogenized, pasteurized and has had sweetened chocolate flavoring added" for the kid here.
Seriously, this is stupid... Just let me order my "Rum and Coke" and a "Chocolate milk" please.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
Lewis Black - https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
"There's no such thing as soy milk. It's soy juice. But they couldn't sell soy juice, so they called it soy milk. Because anytime you say soy juice, you actually... start to gag."
- For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.
Chemically the almond 'milk' has more in common with animal milk, it is a fat based emulsion whereas juice is dissolved sugars.
love is just extroverted narcissism
That's funny.
Actually they have a strict definition of what is peanut butter and what isn't. In the store, next to the peanut butter, you'll see cheaper "peanut spread". This is because the nutritional value of peanut butter is well known (high protein along with sugar, which is fine for growing kids), while the nutritional value of the cheaper peanut spread may be very different.
Well, you can cook with both of them, put them on your cereal, and drink them. How are they not interchangeable?
Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
What do you call a tennis score of 40-40?
Bigot. Men can have vaginas, periods, and can become pregnant.
The point of standard of identity regulations is so that consumers aren't fooled into buying one thing when they think they are buying another. It's consumer-friendly regulation. It prevents companies from selling margarine as "butter".
But "soy milk", "almond milk" and "coconut milk" are the proper English names for those things; everybody knows they don't come out of a cow -- in fact that's the whole point of those products. So why is the administration looking at this question?
It's the kind of regulatory position that's "business friendly" to friendly businesses. While big agribusiness donated more to Clinton (because they wanted TPP), dairy and meat backed Trump. You can see the Trump adminstration cares about dairy; we're probably going to have a trade war with Canada over milk.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
It is TEETHpaste!
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
What about baby oil?
Or... well... hemorrhoid cream?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Certainly. As long as Surfactants isn't shortened to Surf. Might cause consumers to think the product is a suntan lotion.
You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
Just like "krab" is used for the imitation crab meat made from whitefish, we should use the word "milc" for imitation milk made from soy, almond, etc.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
oh ghod, let's not open THAT can of worms!
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
No. No they cannot. Next!
That's because they mis-labeled Palestinians.
Have gnu, will travel.
should only be consumed by women
You sure about this? Phytoestrogens can easily cause issues with the menstrual cycle unless you are menopausal: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p...
USDA is not trying to teach us what "Milk" means. They're trying to show FDA who's boss.
FDA already regulates the term "Milk". see 21cfr131.110
If you say "soy milk", people expect something white watery stuff that has soy and whatever other crap it says on the label. If "soy milk" is worth the cost of regulating it, then fine, do it. Same with "coconut milk", "cheezy poofs", and whatever other terms you can think of. Choose carefully, because it's simply not practical to regulate them all.
If the seller says "Milk", you know you're getting pasteurized cow milk with 3.25% milkfat (unless it says skim, reduce fat, etc.), and some other specifications you probably don't know in detail but have learned to recognize by drinking milk for many years.
I haven't heard that there's a significant number of people buying "soy milk" and expecting to get milk. But...if enough of us have become that stupid, sure, prohibit the use of the word "Milk" in the context of "soy..., rice..., coconut..., lizard...) as well. Or just use some of that Milk Advisory Board marketing money to tell people "Milk means milk; $whatever milk, does not mean milk you idiot".
But again, this is just a dick-measuring contest between federal agancies.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
The FDA defines "noodles" as a product made from wheat flour and eggs, neither of which Asian cuisines use in their noodles, so for many years they had to be called "alimentary paste" in the grocery store. But when you went to an Asian restaurant you got "noodles" (of course the same product).
Eventually the FDA relented and allowed them to be called "Asian noodles".
Perhaps we can call these products "vegan milk" (though this is really no different from the more specific "soy milk", etc.)?
The difference of course is there are no "noodle producers" associations of industrial farmers whose primary product are noodles.
Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
Out of curiosity: What name should we instead give to peanutbutter?
delicious..... mike drop... .grin.
Diluting and / or extending definitions for the purpose of enforcing established circumstances and twisting one's arm to accept false equivalences into policy, is something that happens all the time, and partly reminiscent of the Microsoft EEE paradigm of doing things.
It is important in such discussions to discuss not simply whether it is acceptable or not, but which groups benefit from such a redefinition, which groups are 'pushing' for it (whether visibly or passively by encouraging 'grassroots' uses of the terms) and on what political grounds should they be allowed to enforce this into legislation and change of policy. The fact this question is being asked in itself is evidence that whatever group benefits from such a redefinition, are well into the "Extend" phase by now, and already moving towards the "Exterminate" one.
As it stands, it is rather obvious that the current (largely vegan) trend to call everything under the sun 'milk' rather than "milk" or 'milk alternative', and risk misrepresentation in the process, and equivalently 'cheese / cheesecake' etc, partly aims to portray milk-alternative substances as "equivalent" to milk under 'one' definition, purportedly for the purposes of marketing and convenience, which then serves to conflate a then accepted aspect of that definition as encompassing the totality of that definition. This would in turn entail a shift from defining 'milk' as the product of lactation (as opposed to say coconut "milk", which is so-called because it is 'milky' in texture, but not milk), into defining 'milk' as anything that is 'milky' in texture, therefore shifting the position of dairy milk within this group of 'milks' as simply one element of that set of 'milky' substances, which happens to be from an animal source. A political agenda behind this would then be to form a basis for an argument that there is no need for 'animal-derived' milk when 'non-animal-derived' milk is "equivalent" (something that would have been much harder to discuss if non-animal 'milk' is consistently referred to as an 'alternative'), and use this for vegan lobbyists to put political pressure in a very real and legislative way.
The irony of course, is if a vegan person asked for "oat milk" at Starbucks, only to find they were served "oat-infused cow's milk" (which makes more sense; surely 'chocolate milk' isn't 'milk' extracted from cocoa plants), rather than "oat-based milk-alternative", you can be sure Starbucks would find itself very quickly at the other end of a lawsuit claim for wilful / negligent misrepresentation.
This is similar to how 'non-evidence-based medicine' continuously tries to rebrand itself as 'alternative' or 'complementary' medicine, and such wording alone has allowed to a large extent such practises being accepted into national budgets for medicine. Definitions matter, and they affect policies. To claim it is simply a matter of balance between lexical precision and convenience, and that agendas driving a shifting of this balance are irrelevant, is being naive.
since when does anything related to accuracy and precision of definitions not have anything to do with nerds?
Let's start with what should we call the "peanut"? It's not a nut.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
Ouch! My bones are so brittle. But I always drink plenty of.... Malk?
You are aware that soy is the second most feminizing food product on the earth and should only be consumed by women, right? Flax is number one, about 10 times worse than soy.
It is TERRIBLE for your health as a man, and yes, it does make you look, think, and act like a woman. You might think there is nothing wrong with that, but there is. You will understand this once you cut out the feminizing chemicals and start looking, thinking, and acting like a man. Also, your boy parts will be a lot less cancer prone.
I knew that too much soy messes with male's hormones, but hadn't heard of flax doing that. Quite surprising as to how many protein powders and drinks include these two products. I need to do more research.
Put ground up teeth in it instead of silica gel. Keep the same name.
If it comes from a mammal it is milk. If it comes from a plant it is juice.
The same should be true for cheese. If it is made from mammalian milk it should be called cheese. Anything else needs a different label. Labeling something of plant origin cheese or milk is would be like labeling a vegetable protein 'beef' or 'chicken'; its deceptive.
Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of congress. But then I repeat myself. -- Mark Twain
That's homogenized, non-skimmed milk. Not all milk.
The unique double-ended quartz crystals found in upstate New York nave traditionally been called “Herkimer diamonds.” Diamond dealers have always objected to terms like this as being misleading.
lots of Slashdotters have seized upon Betteridge as the latest fad kneejerk response
Sorry to wander even further off topic, but I thought the latest was people accusing others of "suffering from the Dunning–Kruger effect" when they really just want to call someone else "stupid" but they want to sound like they're really smart when they do so.
Maybe they're doing it ironically.
If "gay marriage" is marriage, if "meatless meatballs" are meatballs and "vegiburger" — a burger, why should not "almond milk" be milk?
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
The Swiss don't consider semi-skimmed milk (2% fat) to be milk, so in the supermarket it has to be called a "milk drink".
soylentnews.org
Just look at what a reasonable person might say.
Do you think a reasonable person looks at a carton of "Soy Milk" and thinks that it is milk from a lactating animal?
Do you think a reasonable person looks at a carton of "Almond Milk" and things that it is milk from a lactating animal?
Cashew milk? Coconut milk?
I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that "Milk" with no modifier is milk from a cow, and that anything other than milk from a cow has to have something in front of it saying what it is from:
Goat Milk
Almond Milk
Cashew Milk
Etc..
I don't know why a lactating animal necessarily has to be involved.
It is disgusting...I drank it for some time. Soy consumption was shown to cause brain atrophy in long term studies. That isn't going to stop it though. We have to plant soy in order to plant corn and soy is the darling of large food corporations. They hydrogenate it and use that to thicken stuff up (Jiff Peanut butter is an example) and to fry things. Hydrogenated soy is horrible for your your health since it oxidizes, sending free radicals throughout the body-- especially when you heat as restaurants do. On top of heating it, most restaurants continue to use the oil after it breaks down and starts smoking--to save money. Soy is cheap but 5 gallons of fryer oil is about $60+, so it adds up and makes quite an impact on the bottom line of a low margin business like food service. Five gallons fills one typical fryer and is really only suitable for a day or two depending on the volume and types of food cooked in it.
The same soy oil that is used for making fried food is also used in agriculture to fatten animals very quickly. It is mixed with grain. You can buy it in 50 gallon drums at feed stores. When you see an otherwise not-fat person with a weird belly pouch you can bet with certainty they live on fast food and other cheap hydrogenated soy products (poor people). I could go on and on. Fuck soy.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
What more do I need to say?
And calling something a pizza when it has no tomato for the tomato pie is also false advertising.
FTFY.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Thanks...
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
The FDA just needs to shove this up their backside. The almonds have left the barn, no point in closing the door now.
The products have been known as Soy Milk and Almond Milk for decades now. Pretty much since they were on the market. Trying to force a change now would cause far more confusion than it prevents. I don't know of anyone who doesn't understand that soy milk is a product made from soy beans.
This is exactly the sort of anal retentive BS that makes people wonder if we should shut down the FDA and start over.
Journalists don't write headlines. Editors do.
Same with "coconut milk", "cheezy poofs", and whatever other terms you can think of. Choose carefully, because it's simply not practical to regulate them all.
You severely underestimate the ability of a bureaucracy to generate paper.
milk (n.) Old English meoluc (West Saxon), milc (Anglian), from Proto-Germanic *meluks "milk" (source also of Old Norse mjolk, Old Frisian melok, Old Saxon miluk, Dutch melk, Old High German miluh, German Milch, Gothic miluks), from *melk- "to milk," from PIE root *melg- "to wipe, to rub off," also "to stroke; to milk," in reference to the hand motion involved in milking an animal. Old Church Slavonic noun meleko (Russian moloko, Czech mleko) is considered to be adopted from Germanic. Of milk-like plant juices from late 14c. Milk chocolate (chocolate made with milk solids, paler and sweeter) is first recorded 1723; milk shake is first recorded 1889, for a variety of creations, but the modern version is only from the 1930s. Milk tooth (1727) uses the word in its figurative sense "period of infancy," attested from 17c. To cry over spilt milk is first attested 1836 in writing of Canadian humorist Thomas C. Haliburton. Milk and honey is from the Old Testament phrase describing the richness of the Promised Land (Numbers xvi.13, Old English meolc and hunie). Milk of human kindness is from "Macbeth" (1605).
eww.
Actually one of my friends from college once had a terrible time trying to find something that he eventually called bull's milk.
It is a local colloquialism the he learned in either Kenya or Tanzania when he was growing up. He needed it for baking and we were at the grocery store when he asked the clerk where they had sweetened condensed milk. The young clerk had no idea what this stuff was. My friend then described the can as white and red with a pink flower on it and still the clerk had no idea what he was asking for. So in a last effort to find such a thing my buddy asks if they have bull's milk thinking that maybe that term is used here in the US as well for sweetened condensed milk. The comment from the clerk was "I don't think bulls give milk"
Going to the grocery store was always a fun experience with the foreign students.
Time to offend someone
I think too many Python programmers are trying to solve this problem.
Can't we just call it "Mylk"?
The same government that's concerned with "government overreach" when it comes to net neutrality, is all of a sudden considered about the use of the term milk, that's been in common use for over 20 years?
They're going to have to rewrite the dictionary while they're at it:
"a : a fluid secreted by the mammary glands of females for the nourishment of their young b (1) : milk from an animal and especially a cow used as food by people (2) : a food product produced from seeds or fruit that resembles and is used similarly to cow's milk coconut milk soy milk"
-Myke
This is nothing but marketing bullshit intended to confuse customers into believing they are somehow substitute products when they aren't and do not share the same properties.
Seriously?! You think anyone has ever been fooled into thinking non-dairy milks are actually milk? They'd have to be much stupider even than the average consumer.
Calling them "milks" (always with a modifier to make clear they are not milk, e.g. "soy milk" or "almond milk"--NO ONE calls their non-dairy milk simply "milk") helps people to understand that they are similar, and that they may be useful as a substitute for the thing they are being compared to.
What's far more problematic than non-dairy milk substitutes comparing themselves to dairy milk as an accompaniment to cold cereal or beverages (but never claiming equivalence to milk) is companies such as Nestle which throw massive marketing efforts behind convincing mothers that fake milk (aka a synthetic "formula") is superior to their own, true milk, which as you correctly observe can only come from the mammary gland of a mammal (and ideally one of the same species as the infant that's consuming it).
I too have a habit of wanting to take things very literally, and can relate to your having a pet peeve about language.
But the word "milk" and the adjective "milky" have been used to describe so many things that aren't produced by mammals--think coconut milk, milkweed, milk of magnesia, milk thistle, milk paint (yes, usually actually made with dairy milk), milk glass (milky-colored; not glasses for milk), ... that I hardly think this is a fight worth fighting.
Unless you're the dairy industry, of course. Then, you have big money to lobby the government to change widely-understood and accepted language in hopes of making dairy substitutes less attractive and marketable to your customers. Especially when you have a government in power that is actually even more friendly to massive, well-established "homeland" industries than those of decades past.
I have no special gift, I am only passionately curious. --Albert Einstein
According to the doctrine of laches: failure to assert one’s rights in a timely manner can result in a claim being barred by laches.
The term "Soy Milk" used for over a century
> "In 1916 a British researcher, Melhuish, in a US patent, first referred to it as "soy milk" and "soy bean milk," two terms which have come to be widely used up until the present. "
http://www.soyinfocenter.com/HSS/soymilk1.php
So why is it a problem now?
Maybe because more people are using dairy alternatives, and the dairy industry doesn't like that?
What about "Milk of Magnesia?" Does that come from a mammal?
Also "Apples" are not computers.
Product names do not have to be literal descriptions of the product.
Obviously peanut paste. Now what do we do with toothpaste?
Obviously it's fraudulent labeling because there are no teeth in "toothpaste".
passetspike!
Now this is a bit off topic but the FDA should enforce a downsized package notification on the label for six months after they reduce the size of the contents. yea Orange Juice I am looking at you! 52 oz is NOT 59 oz which is NOT 64 oz. These new bottles are so obviously smaller. Help me boycott purchases of 52 oz orange juice. (and yes that is U.S. ounces, metric loonies need not apply)
I looked up the cheese vs processed cheese situation as a close example. Processed cheeses - for the most part - cannot simply be called 'cheese'. They're processed cheese and labeled as such. That one had to be regulated and has some rules as to exactly what kind of labeling goes onto them.
Milk vs [descriptor] milk is already doing that. Milk without a qualifier is cow milk. Milk from other mammals is also labeled as such - goat milk, etc.
Perhaps the rule should simply codify what's already being done. It's got precedent. But honestly there's no reason not to call it soy milk when it's used for the same purposes as cow milk and is clearly labeled as to what variant it is.
has spoken
I thought the latest was
On reflection, I don't think I made it as clear as intended that everything after the first line is a cut-and-paste of the same six-year-old comment that I linked to.
So, no, it's not the latest fad now, even if it was six years ago. And yet, as I said, I'm surprised that would-be smartasses are *still* managing to get it wrong.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
Also, your boy parts will be a lot less cancer prone.
So you are claiming that soy causes cancer in men? Citation needed.
Call it animal udder secretion and he how the kids will love to drink that.
Should television stations that brand themselves as "news" be forced to tell the truth about what they actually give their viewers?
"Fox Biased Opinion Channel"
LOL!!!
This is somewhat stupid, I don't mind if they use the word milk, so long as it's to be used to describe it's not actually milk. Chocolate milk has milk in it. Almond milk does not. It should be call Almond extract milk alternative, if they want to continue to use the word milk.
So I guess the FDA wants the dictionary changed too. And pity poor milkweed. It can’t be renamed to just weed, that would be a big problem...
- Tjp
I am in wallow with my inner money grubbing capitalistic pig. ... Oink!
Just require it be sold pre-mixed with rum and pinapple juice. Then you can just call it "Piña colada".
"And, you know, an almond doesn't lactate, I will confess."
it's time to get abreast of the labeling language
> the current (largely vegan) trend to call everything under the sun 'milk'
Current? The term "soy milk" has been used for over a century.
I think "Milk of Magnesia" is older than that.
You realize words in English can have multiple definitions, right? From a dietary and chemical standpoint, almond milk is much more like cow milk than juice. It is fats and proteins in a liquid. Juice is primarily sugars (sort of like skim milk). If you want to be picky about it, "milk" at the grocery store is nothing like raw cow milk either. In my house we don't even drink cow milk. And if we have some in the house, it is specifically referred to as "cow milk."
Maybe instead we should make a law that says all milk has to specifically be labelled with what animal (or plant) it comes from! Not to mention describing the processing that took place. Whole milk would become "centrifugally separated 4% butterfat recombined pasteurized cow milk with added vitamin D and and reduced lactose." YUM!
Why does the dairy industry think it gets to define how we use words? That's not how language works. Of course, I live in a part of the world that refers to any carbonated beverage as a coke, so what do I know?
Fun fact: the platypus does produce milk and has mammary glands. But it has no teats. The milk is secreted from the skin and accumulates in grooves/folds in the stomach where the babies can lap it up.
Keep it weird, platypus.
https://www.merriam-webster.co...
I mean, right there it says:
2 : a liquid resembling milk in appearance: such as
a : the latex of a plant
b : the contents of an unripe kernel of grain
So I guess the FDA wants the dictionary changed too. And pity poor milkweed. It can’t be renamed to just weed, that would be a big problem...
Juiceweed. There. and b.t.w. we live in the Juicyway galaxy.
-USR1
Sir, she walks, she talks, she's full of chalk, the lacteal fluid extracted from the female of the bovine species is highly prolific to the nth degree.
- Tjp
I am in wallow with my inner money grubbing capitalistic pig. ... Oink!
People shouldn't be drinking cow milk past being a baby. I love a good med rate steak, but cow is not so good for humans or the environment. Calling soy or almond 'milk' makes it easier for people to use it as a cow milk substitute. So in the name of eating the transition... call it milk. It's like original electric and hybrid cars... they made them look stupid to let them stand out from gas cars, but that just made them a joke that no one took seriously. Tesla made them stand out by looking like a standard luxury car, then a luxury SUV, and now a fairly standard car... dress for the job you want...
This is nonsense. I looked up coconut milk, almond milk, and soy milk in Google's Ngram Viewer. Coconut milk has been steadily rising in usage since around 1920 and soy milk has been steadily increasing since around 1960. What surprised me though was that almond milk has been in steady usage since around 1800. More than that, in a compilation of writings of Francis Bacon, who died in 1626, he suggests adding pistachios to almond milk.
"Pistachoes, so they be good, and not musty, joined with almonds in almond milk; or made into a milk themselves, like unto almond milk, but more green, are an excellent nourisher: but you shall do well, to add a little ginger, scraped, because they are not without some subtile windiness."
It's pretty clear that using the work "milk" to describe a liquid that derives from a plant is a pretty old custom in English.
Stop calling milk derivatives "non dairy" . Taking the protein out of milk and making some small change to it, turning it into sodium caseinate, doesn't make it "non-dairy"
I'm allergic to milk protein and this issue caused me to nearly go to the ER a couple of times. Non-dairy creamer can still hurt someone that's allergic to milk and might not know all the by-products necessary to look out for.
I had a sucky sig.
Nothing wrong with using soy juice on your cereal if you want to but the act of cooking it or drinking it doesn't magically make it into milk.
Heeeeee! "Soy juice". Yeah, that'll go great with your gin.
Say, doesn't "soy juice" mean "I am juice", in Spanish?
But seriously, I don't think "juice" means what you think it does. It's even more inaccurate than calling non-dairy products "milk".
noun: juice
1. the liquid obtained from or present in fruit or vegetables.
You can squeeze soybeans or nuts all you want; you'll get neither juice nor milk. Non-dairy "milks" are generally made of highly processed, ground-up seeds mixed with thickening agents and large volumes of water. It's not even comparable to juice from concentrate, since that starts out as... well, juice. And the resulting liquid is much, much more comparable to milk (in form, appearance, and common uses) than it is to any kind of juice.
I have no special gift, I am only passionately curious. --Albert Einstein
What can change the nature of a man?
WTH does that have to do with my comment? I was stating a simple fact.
love is just extroverted narcissism
Liquid extracts are serums. Although fruits already have their own word. Sweetened Diluted Almond Serum? Not as appetizing for sure.
your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
We have to plant soy in order to plant corn
What? Who told you that? Don't listen to anything they tell you. Most corn in the USA is grown continuously, especially the corn grown for ethanol fuel.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
What will snake milkers now be called? Should we rename milk of magnesia? Milky Way? We should also ban the word galaxy as it comes from Greek galaktos.
What about galactose? It is found in milk as well as avocados? Lactose is produced in human muscles - males do it too.
I think that's the point, if they are similar enough in look and texture but not in composition there needs to be a distinction to clarify (tee hee).
Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. -- Susan Ertz
But seriously, I don't think "juice" means what you think it does. It's even more inaccurate than calling non-dairy products "milk".
Not possible to make it less accurate than calling it milk. Milk is a very specific thing derived solely from secretions by mammals used to feed their young. There is no product derived from plants that matches the chemical composition, nutritional profile, taste, mouth-feel, or cooking characteristics. That's not to say the veggie based products are bad or shouldn't be used. They just aren't even close to being milk in the technical sense or the legal sense.
You can squeeze soybeans or nuts all you want; you'll get neither juice nor milk. Non-dairy "milks" are generally made of highly processed, ground-up seeds mixed with thickening agents and large volumes of water.
"Soy milk" is a stable emulsion if you want to get technical about it. But we don't have a great word in common parlance for stable emulsions and we do have a good word for plant derived drinks - albeit an already corrupted one as you point out. So unless you want to invent a term (which I'm fine with), juice is as close to accurate as we have available. Given that we already describe lots of drinks that really barely fit the description of juice as juice (see fruit "juice" with just 5% or less plant derived actual juice) we're not really misleading anyone in a new way. You are correct that technically it is not juice but it's far closer to juice than it is to milk.
That is a very good point. Quick search I found something from late 18th century england that says "milk of almonds to be consumed on fifh days". They are talking about lent observance which was the common usage back then. I think milk of almonds is less ambiguous.
refactor the law, its bloated, confusing and unmaintainable.
Fair point, but the general principle still applies, and it should be noted that it was Betteridge himself that referred to journalists ("The reason why journalists use that style of headline is that they know the story is probably bullshit"). (I note that the original quote- now corrected in the Wikipedia article- says "bullshit", not "bollocks" too).
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
Are YOU aware that this distortion was promulgated by the nutjob Weston A. Price people, who also advising feeding babies raw liver?
Nutmeg -- and carrots! -- contain the toxin myristicin
*WATER* can even cause death.
However with the above (unlike bovine lactation) almost nobody ever consumes the extreme quantities needed for any effect.
Give up it's not milk
GREAT!! Now what the hell am I supposed to do with all this Milk Weed? I was trying to corner the market on milk AND weed at the same time. Damnit, Gill, looks like you're not eating tonight....
The FDA should have a whack at Silybum marianum, commonly called "milk thistle" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silybum_marianum.
And what about the Milky Way? We don't even know if there's alien life out there let alone milk with cream on the top.
Sure, why not? If gender can be ignored, I think having access to nut-milk is probably a requirement.
Might be harmless. Then again might not. Not that I am in favor of bulldozing the Himalayas, mind you. I'm just sayin'.
"No fear. No envy. No meanness." Liam Clancy
The dairy industry has been in decline for a long time. Pressure from plant "milks" is seen as a partial cause. Here it is straight from one of the industry's official organs.
"No fear. No envy. No meanness." Liam Clancy
That sounds almost as dangerous as dihydrogen monoxide, a common additive in thousands of common food items, including almond "milk." I've heard they use it in farm fisheries and sewage treatment. It's even used as a paint thinner!