Slashdot Mirror
3Dfx seeking Linux developer
PowerPC sent us
a post from 3dfx.glide.linux asking for someone interested
in working at 3dfx. Specifically to work on developing,
evangelizing and maintaining 3dfx under Linux. Glad to
see another vendor joining the fray. I've attached the
full request and contact information below.
From: Marty Franz <mfranz@141.com>
Newsgroups: 3dfx.glide.linux
Subject: Linux Job Opening at 3dfx
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 20:35:58 -0700
Organization: 3Dfx Interactive
Reply-To: mfranz@141.com
All,
I'm looking for a hard core Linux/3D programmer to join the Voodoo Porting Group at 3dfx. This person must live/eat/breath Linux and 3D graphics. Imagine working all day every day in Linux....Sound cool ? Think you have what it takes ? Email your resume to the email address below.
Voodoo Porting Group Job Description
- Answer developer questions in a timely manner.
- Evangelize 3D API?s and 3dfx hardware to developers.
- Develop tools to ease development on 3dfx platforms.
- Develop 3D demos and technologies to promote the use of advanced graphic techniques.
- Help maintain and improve the quality of 3dfx software distributions.
- Develop and present technical presentations at 3dfx developer conferences.
- Help maintain 3dfx developer web site.
- Publicly promote 3dfx and the use of 3dfx hardware under Linux.
Skills Required
- Strong C/C++ experience required. Assembly experience a plus
- Must have a minimum of one year 3D graphics experience.
- Glide and OpenGL experience a plus.
- Strong math background a plus.
- Strong written and verbal skills required.
Marty.
--
Marty Franz
Director of VPG
3Dfx Interactive, Inc.
mfranz@3dfx.com
From: Marty Franz <mfranz@141.com>
Newsgroups: 3dfx.glide.linux
Subject: Linux Job Opening at 3dfx
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 20:35:58 -0700
Organization: 3Dfx Interactive
Reply-To: mfranz@141.com
All,
I'm looking for a hard core Linux/3D programmer to join the Voodoo Porting Group at 3dfx. This person must live/eat/breath Linux and 3D graphics. Imagine working all day every day in Linux....Sound cool ? Think you have what it takes ? Email your resume to the email address below.
Voodoo Porting Group Job Description
- Answer developer questions in a timely manner.
- Evangelize 3D API?s and 3dfx hardware to developers.
- Develop tools to ease development on 3dfx platforms.
- Develop 3D demos and technologies to promote the use of advanced graphic techniques.
- Help maintain and improve the quality of 3dfx software distributions.
- Develop and present technical presentations at 3dfx developer conferences.
- Help maintain 3dfx developer web site.
- Publicly promote 3dfx and the use of 3dfx hardware under Linux.
Skills Required
- Strong C/C++ experience required. Assembly experience a plus
- Must have a minimum of one year 3D graphics experience.
- Glide and OpenGL experience a plus.
- Strong math background a plus.
- Strong written and verbal skills required.
Marty.
--
Marty Franz
Director of VPG
3Dfx Interactive, Inc.
mfranz@3dfx.com
Just curious... why do you have dual Monster 3D 4 Meg cards? They don't SLI... Some nifty hack going on there? :)
It 'bout time we get some decent Glide support
on Linux. On my V2 12MB QII timedemo runs at
59.5 fps under WIN98 and 36 fps in Linux. Go
figure.
>First of all, glide sucks, it should be forgotten about as quickly as possible.
Oh really, is that your professional opinion, or something you read in a magazine?
How many Glide apps have you written?
Have you ever even looked at the header files?
NT
Woulda' been nice if they had sombody working full time on 3dfx drivers rather than 3dfx apps. Yes, I know there is someone already writing drivers for 3dfx cards. However, he's not an employee of 3dfx and he's not getting paid for his work(from what I understand). Oh well...
libggi, libgii, libggi2d: these libraries I used to make a port of my Direct X program to unixish operating systems...porting was not so boring when I found that the structure is not completely unknown ;)
The example you use about BIOS'es not having accompanied source is a pretty stupid remark. There is more to it than just HAVING the source of a driver. You'd suggest that in order to have 3dfx support in say The Hurd, people should write a linux-driver emulator on top of an ix86 emulator and then run the binary driver from there? Why didn't you use THAT example to state that binary drivers are only good for money, money, money and money ? Grow up, there is more to this life than just the dollar sign.
,--
Tijs van Bakel
Even their windows GL driver is based on Glide (both the mini-gl and the beta ICD), so it is pretty obvious that they would want to do the same thing for linux
Besides, if they were going to write their own OpenGL drivers you would chastize them FOR doing it then (shit, why don't they just help out with Mesa? Binary-only sucks..)
A proprietary driver under the HURD would be pretty funny.
Since Glide and the PC BIOS both provide low level access to hardware, the comparison seems reasonable to me.
You should know what you're talking about before you go around insulting people, but even then it just makes you look like an idiot.
The whole argument for open-source software is that it's naturally better. However, this hasn't always been the case. I love Linux, but I'd happily accept binary-only drivers, because they WORK. We should use what works. If you want to take an ideological stand against binary-only drivers, go ahead. But you speak only for yourself.
>The fact is, binary only drivers ARE worse than >source drivers.
Um, no. If you'd stop to think for a minute, you'd realize that there are plenty of kernels better in some aspects than the Linux kernel. Sun and HP would not be as widely deployed as they are today if they sucked shit.
Closed source does not imply poor quality. Look at the BeOS, look at MacOS. Each may have their flaws, but so does linux.
However, I agree that open source does tend to imply high quality. I use Linux 24/7 because of its quality. But that doesn't mean everything else is bad.
> And, btw, if you think closed source >drivers are okay as long as they work, then you >aren't really part of the linux community. This
> community is based on openness, and >solid code design. Not the fear, uncertainty and >doubt 3dfx is slinging around.
Um, speak for yourself. Just because something is closed source doesn't mean it's worse at performing its function. I will happily use binary-only drivers, because they let me do what I want to do. Namely, play quake.
This is really good news. You shouldn't critisize someone for making a step in the right direction, even if they haven't yet gone as far as they need to. They also never stated the drivers would be binary-only.
Personally, I'll never buy another piece of hardware without open specs again (everything in my computer other than my graphics card has drivers written by the manufacturer, and the graphics card came out in '95). However, I still appreciate what 3dfx is doing, and it means they may release the source in the future, once they see how well companies like Matrox and Trident are doing in the Linux market.
first of all, my point is that you should proclaim yourself as the speaker for all of linux. being a linux user, i am part of the community.
second of all there is a big difference between a driver for a 3d board to play games and a kernel. i think having an open kernel is very important, and it should always be that way. but something to play games? that is not vital to the linux kernel......
for someone who likes open-source, you are sure close minded.
Yeah you fucking scrooges!!!!!!! I bought your card hoping it would be supported in linux soon because there doesn't seem to be a reason why you wouldn't release them. I emailed you with a nice message asking if you would support linux. Well the reply was pretty much that the linux community can go fuck themselves because we are too small to bother with. Well your fucking stats are wrong and even if they are not, word gets out that you are dicks to your customers after they have bought your product. NOTE: Nvidia did not say that exactly but implied it!!!
What is wrong with you.
They just want to sell more boards; and Linux drivers will allow them to do that.
I am not going to buy a VooDoo 3 until I can use it.
Mark
why not try UW-Madison, where Mesa originated?
No, its going to be people like YOU.
The guy has a point, but you ignored him. He said Opensource is better, but sometimes you just gotta settle for less, and work your way up to something better.
But I guess anybody who doesnt conform to the communities views is a threat? What the hell? It may be Open Souce, but not open to ideas. THATS a double standard.
Who do you think you are you? 3DFX along with every vido card maker, sound card maker, and maker of any other PC periphial out there has every right to keep the specifications of there hardware secret. If you want serious 3D Acceleration for linux, don't expect it to come from some "Open Source" project. The talent just isn't there in the "Open Source" community to produce such a project that is stable, fast, and efficient enough to statisfy the demands of todays games; let alone tommorows games to come. Leave this to the professionals to handle it and behappy with what you get, or write your own.
No.
Binary drivers are GOOD
Open Souce is BETTER
You have to settle for less sometimes. If it doesn't go your way you cant just spit it back at them.
We're talkign about 3d cards here. To play games.
Linux doestn need 3d, but its something that would be cool to have.
Now, if they wanted to make a key kernel element of the linux kernel closed source, i'd say no.
And another thing:
An OS can be Closed Source with open drivers
but it cant be
Open source with a few closed drivers?
(I'm refering to BeOS and Linux)
now THATS a fucking double standard, go back to the hole you crawled out of you egotistical linux wh0re.
Um, Matrox have not released the full specs for the G200! The part they have not released specs for is something called the WARP engine, which (probably) deals with geometry handling (triangle setup and stuff). Since this information is not available to the driver developers, the Linux G200 driver will never be as fast as the one under Windows. In the light of this, I don't think binary-only but complete drivers are such a bad thing.
You moron, NVidia was the first to hire developer(s) to write drivers for their card. The drivers for the TNT2 should be coming out very soon. (Though more credit goes to Matrox for releasing specs).
As far as good reasons for NVidia not to write drivers for their earlier cards. Back then, 3D in linux was based almost entirely on Glide, which was developed, and is supported by 3dfx. However since SGI released the source to GLX, and it is becoming more prevelant, they have something to write drivers for, because they do support GL.
And don't blame them because you didn't do any research before you bought your card.
No, you can do that
But you went out of your way to say anybody who doesnt think that is a stupid/smokes crack.
Its like, if somebody doesnt agree, they are worthless? sounds like you are in it for yourself.
So anybody who doesnt use linux isn't a human?
Wow, you are fucked up.
You know, funny.
Thank you so much, i've been waiting for somebody to say something like this.
Open source is GREAT, but you have to settle for less. And we cant spit in there faces if they dont OS stuff.
It wont be the downfall of linux. 3d hardware plays a small roll, and allthough linux can do with out it AOK, it just makes linux a little bit cooler, just like OS 3d drivers would make it even more cooler..
But you can't have your cake and eat it too.
Let's change out a word or two. Now you get this...
"If you want a serious operating system, don't expect it to come from some "Open Source" project. The talent just isn't there in the "Open Source" community to produce such a project that is stable, fast, and efficient enough to statisfy the demands of todays users; let alone tommorows user needs to come. Leave this to the professionals to handle it and behappy with what you get, or write your own."
I do not think it is the lack of talent which is the problem. It is a shortage of people with the time and interest (not talent) to reverse engineer closed hardware specs so they can write the acceleration.
-benjy
Hah, yeh, those for-profit bastards!
>Its like, when ever a linux user says something >"different" or a company does something that >"inst the linux way" you guys flame them up >the ass.
This is not as true as it seems. Most of the flaming that goes on is by a few young and/or immature individuals. Most people in the Linux community and polite and level-headed, and willing to help.
Oh my god are you ignorant (not stupid).
:) favor.
Daryll does his work FOR FREE! YES! HE IS WORKING FOR FREE!
Why?
Because he loves linux.
3dfx isnt going to release the source NOW, but sooner or later they'll see that its in their best interest for community (= consumor
Also.
When 3dfx was windows only, why werent you complaining it wasnt OS then?
Hey, congrats on the new job (er...this is a move to a new company, right?). P.I. sounds neat.
Anyhow, your hardwork and gentlemanly demeanor have been a benifit to the Linux community. It's nice to see your gonna get paid for it now...:)
If you live your life to make him happy, then I don't know whats going on in yer head
>RMS would be PISSED.
:-)
He's pissed already, so I guess it doesn't matter.
Check out ClanLib at http://www.clanlib.org. I've
written some simple stuff that compiles using EGCS
and Visual C++ 6.0 with little/no code change. It
does 2D graphics, sound, networking, and keyboard/
joystick. With OpenGL doing 3D, we already have the tools that we need
You need to get your priorities straight.
And who are you to go around telling other people what their priorities should be?
Hmm?
Hey moron, those are beta.
get a clue
Oh my god. You are so stupid.
So if it isnt Open Source, its useless.
Wow, and you tell him that he needs to get his priorities straight? hah, you are truely a fool.
Writing a glide wrapper is just asking for trouble. You honestly expected them NOT to get upset when you unpropritized their glide? WTF, if they wanted all cards to use it, they would have made it that way.
I think if you guys honestly gave a shit you would have went to court.
Why don't you stand up for what you believe in huh?
whatever, your roomate is a coward for not standing up.
Allow me to give you a simple piece of advice: 99.99% of users couldn't give a flying shit about the source code. Anyone who needs to see the source for a damn video card is beyond lame anyway. What, are you gonna re-write the damn drivers? Get a fucking clue.
Your roommate is the author of Glide Wrapper for windows and g200? Would that be Scott Cutler of XGL200? If I got the right guy, tell him thanks, his wrapper rocks on my TNT. It's faster than others I've tried, and has excellent picture quality.
I don't know about either of you, but name calling and "harsh language" hardly gets anyone anywhere. Back to the point:
Personally, I could care less when the source code is delivered. I am a strong supporter of the "Open Source" movement, but, I should point out, that it needs to start from somewhere.
Has it ever occured to anyone that, perhaps, getting binary only could be a step in the right direction? Should everything be all or nothing? I hope not, especially in Linux' case. If it were all or nothing, then we wouldn't have the ability to expand hardware-wise -- if we accept binary only short-term, I'm sure more companies would be willing to "come around" as they see the money starting to roll in. Give binary only a chance, then ask for the source.
I have a couple of suggestions for you.
1. Get a life!
2. Don't make anymore posts and close your account at slashdot. (You're not helping the Linux community, you're hurting it).
3. If you have a better solution then the current one available to 3DFX card owners we would love to hear it, or else keep your posts to yourself because we neither want to nor do we have the time to read your stupid posts.
> By the time the specs become public, it is too late for them to be useful to the competition anyways.
That's probably why Matrox released specs on g200. Now I know they didn't release specs on the WARP or whatever, but maybe that's because it forms a basis for g400.
I though everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and free to express it. Isn't that the idea?
But no, you what this person to stop posting an opinion, which is a bad thing, no matter how much you disagree w/ any given opinion.
Yes, Matrox has done a whole lot more than 3dfx. Matrox also does well with XFree86, the underrated 2D performance and quality nowadays.
And about not releasing WARP specs . . . at least they released most of the specs. Open Source projects are supposed to be user supported, not half assed support from hardware vendor (they still will be concentrating on windows).
I'd have to agree.
Crappy visuals, 256 X 256 texture size, 16 bit output rendering (does make a different when using alpha blending), no real agp support, no full OpenGL ICD. The feature set of the competition blows 3Dfx away. So that's why I don't have a 3DFX card. So what I can't play quake under linux (actually, FreeBSD with linux ABI compatibility) with hardware accelerated Mesa, that's why I still have windows: better support for games (even if graphic card companies do support free unices, what good is it to gamers if there aren't any good games developed for them? You may cry Quake N where N is an integer, but IMHO quake isn't very good out of the box, and even w/ mods, it still isn't very good. Gameplay and enviroment of quake is uninteresting. So i'm waiting til other companies that make GOOD games port, so I don't get stuck just playing id software games, which aren't very much fun).
So I will continue to buy the best hardware in terms of features and speed as long as it's supported under windows, until a company release starts up support for free unices, and gaming on linux grows to a critical where I can delete windows w/o limiting my choices in the games I play (or maybe I can just delete windows when WINE finally gets a BETA stamp).
I'd love to see lots of binary-only drivers for
the HURD. You don't even need permission from RMS,
since the HURD has a microkernel design that has
drivers running in userspace.
You are not the Linux community. You are a member of Linux community, and you are entitled to your own opinions; however if you claim to speak for the Linux community, you are lying.
I much prefer open source programs to close source programs too, and I will certainly email 3dfx and politely ask them to release the source to their drivers after a few months. However I don't see how you can think this is making things worse. Before, 3dfx had a volunteer write closed source drivers. Should that continue to be the practice? Show interest in linux, and they'll write closed source drivers for you? 3dfx would have closed source drivers even if they didn't hire a programmer specifically to write them. They're simply showing that they're commited to writing good linux drivers by hiring a programmer.
Also, If one closed source driver will allow me to avoid rebooting into an entire closed source operating system, I'll be happy. If you don't like binary only drivers, don't buy from 3dfx. It's as simple as that.
The Linux community is the free software community. The propriety of Glide, and 3dfx's anal enforcement of it, definitely hurts the programming community as a whole, and the free software community in particlular.
Our goal isn't for world domination with Linux. Our goal is world domination with a good, free OS, such as Linux. When we trade in good and free for marketshare, we loose.
Hypothetical situation China announces end to human rights violations. US activists respond by flaming China about low income in factories. How would China respond?
News flash: When someone bad does something good, you should praise them for it, not flame them, even if they haven't gone all the way.
Companies don't instantly change; it takes many steps. We should help them along each step.
"those who give up a little freedom for a little
security (or a little fame in this case)
will soon have neither" -some guy
if linux wasnt whoring it's ass to the corporate slimeballs
(oh fuck me in the ass please, as long as you put me in your new movie/magazine/product so i can be famous)
maybe it would have decent NFS, or decent non-klingon moronic i18n,
maybe pppd would be better written, maybe alot of things.
of course, there's nothing wrong with being a whore, but don't yell at me for wishing otherwise for myself and others.
maybe if you werent so busy trying to get linux to
'go somewhere' youd stop and wonder where you
wanted it to go.
1991: "sure, linux is free"
1995: "sure linux is free, but the best X server costs about 100 bucks and its not open"
1999: "sure linux is free, but a good distrib costs about 50$, and its got alotta non free code in it"
2004: "sure linux was free, but they needed to compromise a little,
for the sake of keeping up with the latest technology. but hey most of its
still open and available relatively easily"
2010: "linux? whats that?"
"i just want to play" "i can look the other way for a minute"
well when you look back, there wont be
any more linux, there will only be a bunch of bletcherous binary only bullshit.
if you just want to play, go buy windows
and erase linux off your hard disk drive.
when you get a clue, come back.
"oh mommy i can't live without my quake III,
i *neeeeeeeed* flashy graphics
i *nnnnnneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeddddddddd* 3dfx"
no you don't, you need food water and shelter.
everything else is a decision you make.
you will live with the consequences of yours (you'll end up with a bunch of binary drivers,
companies that sue at the drop of a hat, and nothing really changed)
i will probably end up living with freeBSD
frankly, i don't care if all you little
quake monkeys go out and make a closed
source version of linux and sell it to companies
who sue people, use patents as weapons, etc.
nothing will stop you anyways, you are like
a bunch of little crack whores who will stop
at nothing for your 3d graphics fix.
when you 'hit bottom' someday, there will still be freeware
out there, somewhere, to come back to. i hope.
I'm just hoping that they don't stop at Linux.. Supporting the BSD bandwagon and the BeOS bandwagon would be nice too!
poor little old 3dfx, the big mean world out to
crush its valiant workers. my ass.
if 3dfx cared about the big mean world then
it would never have become part of it.
btw yer right about quake, only dumbfucks play it.
if china said 'were ending human rights violations'
only a dumb fuck like you would believe them.
furthermore, i suppose you think 'freedom' was enough for the slaves,
why should they be bitching and moaning because of black lung disease in coal mines,
or whining about being murdered by corrupt police.
like fredercik douglass said, once you have a little taste of whats
right in this world, you only want more.. and ill be damned if there's anything wrong with that.
you dont HAVE to play games.
if you CHOOSE to play games with binary only
drivers, that is your choice, and you will
live with the consequences of your actions.
and when you crawl back to me asking for your old
freeware back, ill fuck you in the ass with a chainsaw.
US are a bunch of hypocrites.
Look at the behavior of US companies in the third world.
I think quake N CAN be made good w/ mods that people make, but still, I don't like the environment. I still prefer the environment of Duke Nukem 3D, even though the engine wasn't very good, and there are games that actually make you think, like Rainbow Six.
Aren't the principles of the Open Source movement being "user supported software"? Doesn't having binary only drivers violate that principle? Everything I read about drivers in the Open Source movement says something to the effect: "We just need full tech specs, then we can write a driver, and no NDA." Settling for binary drivers seems to go against that principle.
But then again, I understand, I have a TNT . . .
Because adding to the volume of closed source in the world, and making a monopolist's API more attractive, are both unethical acts. I'll hoard source as a wage slave in order to survive, but never for fun.
3dfx doesn't want "an edge on the competition" - then they'd put out better implementations of public APIs than their competitors. They're one of those companies that doesn't want to *have* any competition, and so must never be allowed to succeed.
You may want to check your facts. 3dfx went after those implementations of Glide (wrappers) that used 3dfx's SDK to develop them for competing cards. IMO, these developers violated the SDK copyright and 3dfx had every right.
To put yourself in their shoes, reverse the situation and say some commercial company violated the GPL for Linux -- say a certain Redmond company using the CODA filesystem with modifications and no source release. Wouldn't you want to have the copyright vigorously defended?
I hightly doubt the "core" of Linux will change
to closed source *JUST* because 3dfx is hiring
some Linux programmers to build binary X drivers
and libraries.
Only way for Linux to become mostly closed source
is if some company used the kernel (as is) and
then just rewrote all the user-level tools (or
used BSD's stuff). And I doubt we will see that
occuring. If you want to start yelling I'd suggest you look over at www.thirdpig.com where
they hacked a linux kernel for "security" and
they plan on selling it. No talk of returning
the code to the public.
I would like to know where i can get my check from the programmers charity so i do not have to charge money for anything anymore. I mean, 3DFX wants to keep their hardware a secret so they can have an edge on their competetion, and that is just plain wrong. i would just like to know where i can sign up me and my company for these checks so i do not have to try and make money anymore. i mean, why not let other companies take all of 3DFX's ideas, make cheap knock-offs.....especially something as vital to the linux kernel as a 3d card.....3dfx does not need to recoup their R&D costs. what you think, businesses are in the business to make money? NO! They are in the business of donating all their time and money so you can play quake at >30fps!!!! how much can developing new processors and hardware cost??? not more than writing software? right? but wait!!! quake is not open source!!! guess you can't play that!!! id software just wants your money!!!!! those evil, evil bastards....
i will be looking for my check soon, and then i will freely release all the R&D we invested our time and money into so other companies can still my ideas and make money without having to invest into R&D, and also i will not have to my programmers anymore...they will just waste it on food, rent and living expenses anyway....
Hah, I dont run linux, but this is what i see
Linux stands for:
Open source
Linux DOESNT stand for
Open Ideas
Its like, when ever a linux user says something "different" or a company does something that "inst the linux way" you guys flame them up the ass.
I can see linux falling on its arse cuz of this.
But who am I to say? I'm just a lame useless windows users. windows users are stupid. Windows users opinions arent valid.
Whatever, put your ego aside and think Openly.
I've been using Linux, exculsively, as my development platform for over a year now. My day job is developing 3D games. These two would be mutually exclusive, if it were not for Daryll's glide drivers. (My latest creation, called "Savage Quest", is currently shipping to arcades all over the US).
Thanks to those glide drivers, I can play Quake 2 alongside my Windows-using co-workers.
Thanks to those glide drivers, we can all play Quake 3 while our Windows-using co-workers look on with envy.
Thanks to those glide drivers, we can all play the few commercial 3D games that are making it to Linux (such as BFRIS and Fire&Darkness).
Thanks to those glide drivers, we can play the unfinished Golgotha and Tux: Quest for Herrings, and fledgling game programmers can browse the source on their Linux boxes.
All of these things are still written with stock OpenGL, so as soon as other GL drivers come availible (come on, MetroLink & Xi, what's taking so long?!) we'll be able to run them on that hardware instantly.
I can't see any way that the binary-only Glide drivers have hurt the Linux community. I'd say they have helped it tremendously. Sure, it's not *ideal* - but you have to start somewhere.
If I were a higher-up at 3Dfx and reading this (which I may be since my company is looking for a Linux developer, and ./ is a great Linux site) I would say "fsck y'all. I'm going back to Windows only support." This ranting and raving is pure lunacy! 3Dfx CHOSE to support Linux, Linux did not make 3Dfx come around. Maybe they should go back to the Windows environment.. this is crazy!
please do not say "We". i consider myself part of the linux community and i do not want anybody speaking for me other than me. i will be happy with binaries if the companies are not willing to open spec their hardware. and i do not believe that FUD that binary only means poor quality. if you are not happy with that then do not buy that particular hardware, scream, yell and cry all you want. but do not act like you represent the linux community, because i disagree with you whole heartedly about the whole "binary only" driver issue.
If anything will lead to the downfall of Linux, it will be people like you.
You know, I don't think the kernel needs to be GPL'ed, Linux would rule if it was a proprietary system! Oh wait, not it wouldn't.
Would you use a binary-only kernel? If not, why would you accept a binary-only video driver? Sounds like a double standard to me.
Glide sucks because it is proprietary and only supports 3dfx cards. I could care less about the actual API, it's non-free and that is all I need to know.
Exactly, these people advocating binary-only drivers are obviously not coders, or if they are they don't understand the importance of having source.
You know, linux wouldn't be here today if it wasn't free. Get a clue.
binary only drivers work? where the hell are you getting your information? the sblive modules only work with 2.2.5, I hardly call that "works".
Who gives a damn about open ideas if they are contrary to open-source? Source comes before ideas.
You need to get your priorities straight.
Matrox has provided far more for the linux communinity than 3dfx has.... Open Specifications and GL drivers for the G200 are in development right now.
There are some issues of them not releasing the docs on the geometry processor but that issues is going to be resolved sometime soon...
that you couldn't be any more wrong.
g 200-dev
Currently, there are drivers for the G200 in development. And guess what, we are proving you wrong.
http://lists.openprojects.net/mailman/listinfo/
Wine has partial DirectX emulation (including DirectDraw and Direct3D) already. D3D currently translates the API calls to Mesa equivalents, but I'm sure somebody could write a D3D->Glide translator without too much effort.
RMS would be PISSED.
The example you use about BIOS'es not having accompanied source is a pretty stupid remark. There is more to it than just HAVING the source of a driver. You'd suggest that in order to have 3dfx support in say The Hurd, people should write a linux-driver emulator on top of an ix86 emulator and then run the binary driver from there? Why didn't you use THAT example to state that binary drivers are only good for money, money, money and money ? Grow up, there is more to this life than just the dollar sign.
If you're so smart, why don't you do like Darryll is doing, and sign an NDA with 3dfx and port Glide to the Hurd yourself? 3dfx isn't charging anyone for the Linux version of Glide, they just don't want to publicly release the source code. If someone were seriously interested in porting Glide to some other OS or platform, they should get in touch with 3dfx and do it, not sit back and bitch because they don't get their way.
A proprietary driver under the HURD would be pretty funny.
Yep, kind of ironic. But the decision to only have open-source drivers is GNU's, and if that decision limits the number of devices the OS can support then that's something they have to live with.
We can rail all we want against vendors that decide to release binary-only applications, drivers, etc. But at least in the near term, they will continue to do just that because, right or wrong, they see it in their best interest. It's better for us to welcome what they do release and try to convince them to release more, than to angrily turn them away because what they release isn't "free enough". Linux's market share increases because it supports more hardware, and the vendor's market share increases because its hardware works in more places. In time they'll see that releasing source only increases the amount of hardware they can sell; until then it benefits everyone to support and encourage them to at least be compatible.
Hey Rob, how about making a job offer topic so we can filter it out? What is really special about this job offer that you posted it as news?
It is pretty nice to get some serious interest from a hardware company like 3dfx, and hiring people to work on Linux drivers and support qualifies as serious interest. It is not something to throw your hat in the air and yell about because it is so great (people have already pointed out the down side of 3dfx "style" of support, so I won't elaborate). The news (IMO) should be received with a smile and a silent hope that they "get it" sometime soon.
:-)
...yellow number five, yellow number five, yellow number five...
What are you on? 3Dfx is the ONLY 3D vendor to deliver anything of any use to the Linux 3D user thusfar.
It hasn't been as much as we might like. However, it is certainly greater than the big fat ZERO from the rest of the industry.
You can at least use that Monster3D versus a Permedia or Riva based card...
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
There are probably some good people out there who would take a pay cut to be able to GPL everything they write and be able to show a friend for some input here and there when they get stuck, I can understand that, becuase it would make the "job" more fun. But I wonder what the acutal numbers are.
I completely agree with Daryll, people seem to think that changes happen in these huge world-moving ways, but they happen gradually. Fine, GLIDE isn't open, but the 2D is. I compiled an accelerated X server for my Voodoo3 and it works great. With nVidia's release, there's not enough register-level information for even BASIC acceleration. Of all the 'game-card' manufacturers, 3DFX has been the most supportive.
----------------- "I have a bone to pick, and a few to break." - Refused -------------------
Ok, find me another way to get good, accelerated 3D on a consumer card, under Linux. Oh wait, you can't.
----------------- "I have a bone to pick, and a few to break." - Refused -------------------
Voodoo Rush runs Q3Test quite nicely. I am using the drivers from http://glide.xxedgexx.com/3DfxRPMS.html
-- Tom Rathborne
Let's encourage people to write Glide games. Yeah, that's the ticket....
Nowhere is there any mention of Mesa or OpenGL.
Linux is at the stage that Windows was a while ago -- 3dfx, for one reason or another, is the only viable platform for 3d game development. The result of this in Windows was a bunch of Glide only games, and a tendency to only support 3dfx (cough, cough, unreal, starsiege). This sucked.
Don't do it again.
Correction, there's a small mention of OpenGL...
An AC calling someone a coward- what a world.
Really now, do you expect a college student to muster the financial resources to take on 3DfX legally speaking? What have you been smokin' lately?
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
I agree wholeheartedly with what you're saying, but I had to add a few tidbits o' my own to the thread...
2. Yes releasing full specs would be better
Matrox has done it. Which means that 3Dfx can be convinced to do it. We do need to fight the culture of hardware secrecy that permeates many parts of the electronics industry
While Matrox released most of the specs, they omitted some rather critical pieces that provide the peak speed for the G200. It's the same story with the Millenium/Mystique- it'll do busmastering DMA on data transfers and seems to have texture caching, etc. Try finding anything other than a passing mention of any of that in the Millenium or Mystique specs. While they're better than most of the rest at what they should be doing by our standards, they're still infected with that same culture- just not as bad as companies like ATI or NVidia.
3. But binary only is fine for now
At least they're making an effort at OS support. It's their hardware, and Glide is their code. They should have a choice about how they want it used. Why should we turn down binary support for an important API?
We shouldn't- but by the same token, I'm not going to be as inclined to accept them because they didn't go far enough with programming info for their chips. In this regard, they're only slightly better than ATI. Today, we'll accept them because they're the only game in town for 3D. Tomorrow, that's another story altogether- it's up to them how the play goes down.
4. Writing our own drivers, even from the specs, is hard
I know they're doing it for Matrox with GLX. It remains to be seen whether it will ever be a usably fast GL tho. 3DCards are about the most complex peripheral you could put in your computer. Writing drivers for them isn't trivial, and the drivers need to be really good to be usable -- right now the G200 drivers aren't even near there yet. I would like to see the Open Driver movement prove itself with truly excellent G200 drivers before we go demanding the right to write drivers for other hardware.
It is hard- not so much the complextity of driving the 3D functions, that's moderately easy. It's pushing all that data to the card in a way that's fast. I know- I've been working at the Millenium GLX driver (the baseline for the G200 work) and I'm working on a driver for the SiS 6326 chip. (Time permitting, of course- work's got me doing a Linux version of our product and I want to win that design win!)
I agree, we need to come forward with one or two winners before we really start putting the screws to the other vendors for open sourced support- but I don't know how far we're going to get with the G200. Like I said, some critical info's been withheld from us. Some of it is Matrox's doing- we're missing some tech data in that release of the G200 programming specs, like the information to drive the WARP triangle setup engine. Some of it is Intel's doing- try prying details of the GART's programming from them (hint: it's needed to at least some extent to be able to really use the AGP spec to it's fullest for system memory textures, etc.). Without these, I don't know how fast we're going to get it. I'm hoping 30-ish fps with a decent PII or equivalent running against Quake II or III. As for my efforts on the SiS, I don't know how far I'm going to get- I'm looking at having to do the X server fixes (No X accel is not acceptable- we've had the specs for this chip for a while now!) and the driver files as well as doing my work during the day- time will tell.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
by the level of animosity here. It's not professional, and it's clear most of you are running your mouths without having a clue what you are talking about.
/. posting. Meanwhile, let's demonstrate that Open Drivers is a viable option. That's the best way to convince companies like 3Dfx and nVidia to open their specs.
1. Glide doesn't suck
It's not a perfect API, but at least it's fast, easy and flexible. In fact, as far as we can tell (using VTune to benchmark) it's actually physically impossible to make a D3D card faster than a V3-2000 running Glide -- M$'s code is slower than Glide, so even if the card was infinitely fast, it the program would run only as fast as Glide on a V3 (it turns out D3D runs code in two chunks, the M$ part and the card driver part).
2. Yes releasing full specs would be better
Matrox has done it. Which means that 3Dfx can be convinced to do it. We do need to fight the culture of hardware secrecy that permeates many parts of the electronics industry
3. But binary only is fine for now
At least they're making an effort at OS support. It's their hardware, and Glide is their code. They should have a choice about how they want it used. Why should we turn down binary support for an important API?
4. Writing our own drivers, even from the specs, it hard
I know they're doing it for Matrox with GLX. It remains to be seen whether it will ever be a usably fast GL tho. 3DCards are about the most complex peripheral you could put in your computer. Writing drivers for them isn't trivial, and the drivers need to be really good to be usable -- right now the G200 drivers aren't even near there yet. I would like to see the Open Driver movement prove itself with truly excellent G200 drivers before we go demanding the right to write drivers for other hardware.
The way I see it, the ball's in our court, not theirs. I'm sure they'll find the right person with all the resumes they'll get after a
dude what are you talking about? Does your employer know you smoke crack??? Same something related to the discussion :p
Actually the TNT2's are price comperable to the new voodoo's
--== So many idiots, so few comets. ==-- --== Stupidity should be painfull. ==--
I'll take anything Daryll says at face value.
Thanks for the Monster Fusion support, man!
First off I see references in all of the postings to negativity... I didn't read any negative replies... but my theshold is set to 1.
Secondly 3dfx is evil here is why: Glide is a propriatary protocol. 1) My roommate is the author of the GLIDE wrapper for windows and the G200 (it now supports all cards but the G200 was his goal.) They have retro activly aplied a licence to there SDK to make it illegal to use to write glide wappers and sent cease and desist orders to all glide wrapper authors. 2) Most Windows games that use glide Don't use glide wrapped around OpenGL they use straight GLIDE. This means 3DFX had a monopoly. I say had becuase most new games support GL or D3D. 3) 3dfx doesn't embrace the linux ideals. They sure as hell won't open source there drivers and no they make no indication of doing so in there post. 4) The 3d produced by a 3dfx card is at the bottom of the visual quality spectrum yet all anyone talks about is the frame rate.... the frame rate when frame syncronization is turned off!
The thought of 3dfx joining in linux development scares me. If linux gaming gets locked in to 3dfx I think I'll switch to console games only! I think this is one of the few vendors linux would be better off not working with. Their products though fast are visually the lowest quality.
I have a banshee card. There's no 3d support as of yet, but the X server is the same as the Rush server. Last I checked it's the 3.3.3_3 revision, which is pretty usable. 3.3.3_2 was really torturously slow. Couldn't do 1024x768 at 32bpp because the server couldn't keep us. But the newer one is quite decent. I expect it'll continue to improve quickly.
----------------------
There is no K5 cabal.
I am not the real rusty.
... They are merely attempting to exploit it. Folks, we need to remember that the only thing that 3dfx ever did for us was release *ONLY* the 2d specs for their cards, give *ONE* developer access to specs to write a *BINARY-ONLY* GLIDE port, and put up a silly little web page. 3dfx has always been an extremely proprietary company that is openly hostile to open standards and open source. If I recall correctly, there are several independent, clean-room developers of GLIDE implementations that are being sued by 3dfx. 3dfx is not supporting the Linux community, only the Linux platform. We should be boycotting 3dfx, not cheering them along as they undermine the open standards and open source communities that have made Linux what it is today.
3Dfx is serious about wanting to work with Linux. This isn't marketting fluff. They've appreciated the work I've done, and they understand the value.
Glide is a hardware abstraction layer. They use it for their in-house applications. You don't have to write to it if you don't want to. Mesa talks through Glide and that's a fine way to access the hardware. There is essentiantially no performance hit for doing so.
Linux users complaining about Glide only games don't know what they are talking about. Most of the "Glide only" games you see are OpenGL games, that need Glide only to talk to the hardware. They won't be Glide only when more hardware has OpenGL support under Linux. Hopefully that'll be soon.
No, Glide will not be Open Source anytime soon. That might be less than optimal, but I take the position that having it be well supported by the vendor is almost as good. (As an example, do you have the source to the BIOS on your PC? Why don't you complain about that?) Having their own team in house to work on Linux is the way to get it well supported
I asked them a while back to start looking to hire people in house. They really wanted to hire me. I seriously considered their offer, but decided to work for Precision Insight instead. I figured being vendor neutral was better. I hope to continue working with 3dfx and whoever they hire in house.
If anyone from here is interested in the job with 3dfx, please feel free to contact me. They are a great group of people. They want to do some really cool work. I believe it'll be good for Linux in general.
- |Daryll
Am I the only one who was instantly filled with dread and anxiety on reading that, because it's a job ad? Aarrgghh. My brain is like, "okay, c/c++, no problem . . . Oh, no, I don't have any 3D graphics experience at all, let alone a year! I've never done assembly! I have no math background at all! God, I'm doomed! I'm gonna be unemployed! I'll starve!" My heart rate increases, I need a cigarette, etc. etc.
Just for the sake of clarity, I'm sitting at my desk at work here, I like my job, I'm good at it, and they want to keep me. I'm not looking for a job. Even if I were, I'm not all that interested in graphics, and the last thing I ever want to do is get mixed up in hardware and drivers and whatnot. But in spite of all that, I'm still weirding out here.
It's funny what turns up between one's ears.
"Once a solution is found, a compatibility problem becomes indescribably boring because it has only... practical importance"
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --
Even in the Windows world, 3dfx has not been particularly well behaved. Their packages have been claiming OpenGL support for a long time, but they aren't delivering (and I suspect that's a strategic decision rather than inability to deliver). And recently, they pulled out the rug from under all the board makers that used to use their chip sets by deciding that future 3Dfx boards would be done in-house.
There are also technical issues. The 3dfx APIs look to me like they are designed to give the company a short-term competitive advantage on 1998 model PCs. But in the long term, I'd much rather see more powerful APIs like OpenGL widely supported.
There are a lot of nice 3D boards out there that don't have Linux drivers yet, and there are several nice 3D APIs. There is a lot of useful 3D work to be done on Linux. A 3dfx API driver for 3dfx boards would be near the bottom of my list of priorities.
this is definitely a good thing. at least for me!
i have a voodoo rush card, and much to my surprise, a couple of weeks ago, freshmeat posted a link to their pages for drivers for linux. turns out they have an x server that supports rush! unfortunately, i'm not able to test it because my $@#&! motherboard hasn't been able to boot the kernel. but i'll fix that soon enough.
anyone else have a rush? (i think i might be the only one). any luck with the x server? is it worth my time to replace the mb to get linux to work here?
- chris
Updating and enhancing Glide for Linux won't hurt GL performance... the MesaGL voodoo drivers are based on Glide. If anything, better Glide drivers will give us better voodoo GL drivers by default.
Besides, there are still a number of games being produced specifically for Glide. This can only help them in getting possibly ported to Linux.
Games are still 99% of the time designed for Windows and then ported. I don't think many companies are going to throw out their OpenGL versions and just make a Glide port for Linux.
The fact is, binary only drivers ARE worse than source drivers. If you don't believe this, you are smoking crack. We only have to look to a certain KERNEL to realize the potential gains of open source hardware support.
Now, consider a certain hardware company (creative labs) who just released their sblive driver, binary only of course. Guess what? It ONLY works with the 2.2.5 kernel. Now, excuse me, but if this isn't broken, what is?
Companies like 3dfx don't release hardware specs because they are either scared of what we might learn about their boards (they suck), or have an irrational fear of what other companies might do if they knew something about them. Heaven help us if Montego ever found out how to write drivers for a sblive!! Oh no!!!
And, btw, if you think closed source drivers are okay as long as they work, then you aren't really part of the linux community. This community is based on openness, and solid code design. Not the fear, uncertainty and doubt 3dfx is slinging around.
j. scott olsson
You mean there's an XFree banshee server? Or do you mean the framebuffer thingy?
QuMa
A linux port of Direct X
"Windows 98 Second Edition works and players better than ever." -Microsoft's Home page on Win98SE.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Ok, we need an OPEN port of it..
"Windows 98 Second Edition works and players better than ever." -Microsoft's Home page on Win98SE.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Ellis-D> "If we are what we eat, then the only
Ellis-D> real humans are cannibals."
No! This is not wholly correct, as cannibals who ate non-cannibals would therefore not be cannibals. The only real humans would be those cannibals who only eat other cannibals, who in turn must only eat other cannibals. (And unless the cannibals had some non-ingestive means of gaining energy -- photosynthesis, perhaps, or direct injection of nutrients -- they would all die, as the laws of entropy dictate that the system would burn itself out.)
Thus we see that when the act of eating becomes an act of definition ("we are what we eat"), the undecidability problems inherent in all formalized systems of definition pop up.
"Whatever happened to fair use?"
-- Duff-Man
See5 204&mode=thread 2 219&mode=thread
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=99/04/08/134
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=98/12/31/115
oh ye of short memories
"Blah blah blah, eveyone should develop for Linux!"
"Blah blah blah, now that they do - they suck!"
This is really p*****g me off. ANY exposure of the name Linux on any high profile product is FANTASTIC NEWS - even if the support actually sucks. Other compnaies will see what they are doing and follow their lead. Competition then ensues, one day someone will take the extra step we all hope for.
Why do some advocates insist that if it's for Linux then it must be utterly free and open from day one, or they shoudn't bother? Have you no sense of history? - Openness *GROWS*, it doesn't magically appear!
I think this is top news (regardless of wether they achieve anything). PHB's and marketing exec's will take notice of this.
3Dfx is playing marketing/PR games. It's damned obvious.
Nowhere is it told what exactly you would be developing. It is purposely vague, obscure, and uncertain.
Why? Because 3Dfx knows Linux is getting big. So they need to answer it somehow. So they answer it the easiest way possible. Make it look like they're doing something for it.
What will you be doing at 3Dfx? Well, most likely, developing another binary-only GLide for Quake III Arena. (Which is amazing, BTW.) Maybe some cheezy demos that measure your general FPS so you can brag about it. Perhaps a binary-only XFree86 that works better with the Voodoo (Rush,Banshee,etc) chipset.
But if you're looking to actually *contribute* something, I hear anybody can be a kernel developer. 3Dfx? They're just out for more marketshare, probably. I'll upgrade from my dual Monster3D 4Mers to dual Monster3D II 12Mers when 3Dfx stops being overzealous pricks, and actually contributes something to the software end for real. (Demos do not count. I used to be a demoscene whore. I am not impressed by a rotating cube with multiple textures and light sourcing.)
Thank you, drive through.
-RISCy Business | System Administrator, Nexbell Communications
your company here.
shelby != ford
"Windows people" is somewhat of a misnomer.
"Windows drones" is far more appropriate.
:)
At least its a start for 3dfx...
A company comes out to start supporting Linux and you people get all over them because they are not supporting such and such or are doing things there way. Glide IS faster than OpenGL and a hell of a lot easier to program for too. If I was 3dfx I would say to hell with you and keep catering to the Windows people. Get over it...
Some of you are so Anal about things like this! If you guys want Linux to go anywhere STOP BITCHING about a company taking interest in Linux, Geez its paranoia setting in, its not like 3dfx is going to be the next MS or RedHat for that matter.... :)
How about releasing binary only drivers and supporting the heck out of them for 6 months or so, till the next guy comes out with a bigger badder product, then releasing the specs and the source tp allow the linux community to take over?
You save money in the long run. (don't have to continually support old products)
Your products remain useful for longer
By the time the specs become public, it is too late for them to be useful to the competition anyways.
All 3dfx are doing is trying to protect their intellectual property. You don't see Creative releasing open source drivers for the SB Live, do you? They're just trying to retain their competitive advantage. Why on earth should 3dfx contribute to an effort that would give their competitors access to a market they essentially (at least to my understanding) have locked down? If GLide weren't a viable API, it'd be a different story, but many developers choose it over OpenGL (for whatever reason... i'd prefer a unilaterally supported API).
If you yell at anyone, it should be 3dfx's competiors - if NVIDIA broke into linux with a good OpenGL implementaition, 3dfx would be forced to at least give it a shot.
Also, if you hate GLide, yelling at 3dfx won't do anything. They LIKE having a proprietary API. It makes them money, and gives them a competitive advantage over the other companies out there. The people who have control in this matter are game developers. If no one develops for glide (and more developers are going towards openGL or D3D every day), then 3dfx will have to change their strategy.
And by the way, console development is an even worse nightmare than 3dfx. Would you rather use an API (ie GLide or openGL) for free, or pay over 50K for an SDK? Seems like the console strategy is even more despicable...
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Get back to me when my brain starts working.
Personally, I could care less about how a Glide wrapper is done for my 3dfx card. I have a Banshee and owe a debt of gratitude to Darryl Strauss for his XServer and can't wait to play Q3. I don't care who or what makes 3d possible with my card, I just want to play. Open Source? Yeah it'd be nice but I can look the other way for a minute while I'm fragging chumps on Q3.
Get back to work on the Banshee glide port man. I gotta have my Q3. :)
That would depend on what brand of TNT2 you were looking for. I purchased my non-expensive TNT2 for $199 from Sunway Graphics, Inc., received my TNT2 on the 30th of April, too. It's a Leadtek S320 II with 32M of RAM -- it isn't a TNT2 Ultra, but I didn't mind too much since the card didn't last long in my system anyhow. ;)
;) That's just me being silly, in case there're extra-serious folk reading this.
When it comes right down to it, I'm sticking with 3dfx (even using my V3 3K as we speak). I like what Matrox is doing, but I'm reserving judgement until the G400 is released -- besides, they could just switch to the dreaded binary-only support.
wow, thats kewl, maybe the 3d for the v3 will be supported soon, that way i dont have to pay an outragious price for a tnt2 to play q3a.
i cant seem to come up with a sig.