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Is Qwest's ISP Deal Really Worth the Hassle?
"My husband and I were paying $21.95/mo for our dialup access. We were also paying more than the difference - $3 - in long distance each month while definately using less than 250 minutes. So we thought, "Hey, this sounds like a good deal. Let's go for it." So we did. After attempting to sign up and being told there was some sort of problem with our phone company and that we'd have to call the 1-800 number to set up our account, the wierdness started. We never called the 1-800 number, but a week or so later, we got a call from MCI (our old long distance carrier) asking if we wanted to switch back - or why we switched in the first place. The poor telemarketer basically hung up when my huband told them we were getting a *far* better deal - they couldn't compete. So we figured, 'Hey, the changeover must have happened. Cool, I wonder when our Inernet Account will be active.' However, we didn't get any sort of confirmation from Qwest for another week or more, and only then after they had sent us 2 copies of a CD containing netscape (which I, naturally, thought was extraneous since I already had Netscape installed on all of our linux boxes). My husband finally sat down this past weekend with one of these CDs, and read through the info packet - the requirements of Win95/98 are apparently set stone. You have to install *their* version of Netscape in order to even *register* for their Internet service. You cannot get your account open unless you use their software that is either imbedded in, or integrally tied to, the copy of Netscape they send you. Which only runs on Win95/98 (according to them - not even NT!).
We tried everything we could to get it working under Linux - no go. My husband called Qwest, and they said the only way to activate your account is via *their* software. Which is Microsoft-centric. Which is not something I'm sure I want to deal with. Yes, we have dual-boot systems, but Win95 doesn't seem to work well on my husband's machine, the only one other than the server, which is linux-only, with a modem. We have yet to move a modem to our third machine (mine) and trying to boot to windows to do it that way. Though I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth the effort. What if they've got some funky setup where we can't get all the information we need to be able to set it up in Linux? Then we're pretty much hosed. Are all 'large-scale' ISPs this way? I know Mindspring - while not actively *supporting* Linux - does have many linux-using customers who don't have WinX around to initialize their account. I know there are Linux users using AT&T and AOL. Can you get those accounts without having to go through a WinX middle-OS? Has anyone else had any experiences with Qwest, or know of any work-around to get your account set up? We're already rather close to cancelling the whole deal - but the price just seems too good to be true for what you get. I suppose it is - considering you have to sell your soul to Microsoft just to sign up. "
Is it just me or do some of you find the practice of requiring a specific Operating System to access the Internet? If Qwest is really making this a hard and fast requirement, then they should point this fact out to potential customers especially since the deal forces you to change your Long Distance carrier as well. I wonder how many other unsuspecting folks have been caught by this.
Doesn't Microsoft own at least a stake (I think 25%) in Qwest? I seem to remember this one from a while ago. In which case, it would seem curious that they're using Netscape as their required software.
I used to work for Southwestern Bell Internet Services and Pacific Bell Internet. (Now I work for a little bitty mom and pop ISP in BFE Texas) Both SBIS and PBI required win3.1/95/98/nt or mac to register, but once you had an account they did not care what you used. But God help you if you called in and talked to the average support person and said you weren't using WinX. I'd suggest, if you call Qwest, make sure you talk to second level support at least. Oterwise you'll probably be told it will not work even if it can. -Mike
Windows-exclusive ISP's are old news. My previous isp, brandywine.net, uses a microsoft-specific password authentication protocol, one that is a practical impossibility to set up on linux. And, of course, brandywine.net was entirely unwilling to help me. Needless to say, I switched isp's.
I do ISP tech support for the three companies named above. We work it similar, in that to register, we have people get our software , which I believe only runs on Win 95/98, NT, and Mac OS 7.5-8.5. However, we do have an online registration tool that people can use if they can get online from another machine and have an operating system our software doesn't work on. We don't support Linux , but we don't force customers to use a supported OS, either. So, I can tell you that what QWest is doing is kind of a shady deal. Sure, it makes it much easier for the Windoze-using crowd to get an account if they just install software, put in their info, and *bang* get an account. However, there need to be tools for customers using other OSs, have problems with the software for other reasons, or need an account faster than they can get a CD.
This does not reflect the opinion of /. or of the AC that posted the above! Pirating is wrong!
A shameless plug for midspring: while they do not officially support Linux, they do have help pages for Linux and the techs, while still learning, are in fact trying to learn Linux. The tech I talked to one day, in fact, appeared to be excited about learning Linux.
I heard that obtaining the IP of the DNS server
is an (MS-?) extension of PPP.
It would be nice if Linux pppd could report
this IP instead of having to phone
clueless ISPs for it...
| Yet another reason why people should not be pushing Linux
| on the desktop until it really is ready.
This has *nothing* (zero, zilch, nada) with Linux "being ready for the desktop".
No matter how user friendly the OS in question is, if the ISP require some crappy
one-platform-only software to connect to their service, it won't work.
The way AOL interfaces with winsock is the AOL Adaptor it installs. You would have to find a way to get this working first, then run the AOL client. I called AOL to see if a client was being developed for Linux, there anwser "No."
My wife uses AOL under both NT 4 and Win2k and it works just fine. When you call for tech support just tell them you use Win9X. They wont know the difference.
Well put. I agree completely.
It looks like I accidentally moderated this topic down when moderating another topic up. Sorry, my bad!
PAP/CHAP/MS-CHAP is a form of Authentication. PPPPoint to Point Protocal), its not an authenication method.
My parents have Bresnan cable access in Michigan, it's absolutely wonderful, but Bresnan will talk only Windows, not Mac, not Linux. I set up mom with Linux anyway, it's just a RoadRunner terminal adapter. But the guys at Bresnan positively sick up at the sound of Linux, like the money's no good. I don't get it, Bresnan is some sort of UNIX network, anyway.
Another ISP is a RedHat shop from top to bottom, yet officially, only supports Windows. Their tech people apparently have been instructed to ignore Linux inquiries.
It's so weird.
but is your ISP nationwide? we don't want to have to dial long distance
"Yet another reason why people should not be pushing Linux on the desktop until it really is ready."
So... does this mean that MacOS, also unsupposted by this service, isn't "ready for the desktop" either?
As said above, this has *nothing" to do with Linux' readiness for the destop.
I have never figured out why Linux doesnt negoicate the DNS. I guess PPPD doesnt support it. Anyone know?
Urgh. I have to post this one anonymously.
I work for an ISP which re-sells Bell's lines (on a frame-relay network), basically at cost, at 56K and T1 rates. I can say without hesitation that Bell Atlantic's tech support is bascially a nightmare. I get the chills every time I see one of their trucks near my building: twice, they've gone in to do work there unrelated, and caused on of our clients to lose connectivity.
When other problems arise that aren't directly attributable to a dumb-ass move on their part, their tech support invariably says, "We'll look into it." An hour or so later, the problem will be fixed, and I'll get a problem from them saying "Wow. Nothing was wrong here. Guess you guys must have had a problem which fixed itself."
Yes, i realize that most isp's have software that require you to sign up an account... some of them are realizing that there are more os' out there than just windblow... take at&t for example.. there are ways to sign up without using their setup package...
I've seen some perfectly good and intelligent posts on this topic get moderated right down to zero. This isn't exactly the smartest one itself, but will certainly get shot down. Use some sense moderating, even if the topic is way over your head
There are lots of apps that give *significantly* more functionality than Homesite or Dreamweaver. Like VIM. It's not like HTML is difficult, it's actually the simplest markup language I've ever seen.
Also, with stuff like Homesite and Dreamweaver, can you set up dynamic content? Can you design sites that take advantage of SSI? How 'bout CSS? XLS? Jscript?
Quest's service is great because it allows me to call European bbs's without the expensive cost.
Quest is sorta unresposive, but the price is good.
What are you smoking? Why would I want to install a piece of crap O/S that'll force me to repartition, overwright my MBR, and then take up at least 300 megs of space when I should be able to just work with the perfectly good system I have now?
i use bellsouth.net adsl with a linux box as a
firewall and happen to _love_ it. sure, the
voices-on-the-phone say that they don't support
linux, but who needs their _support_ anyway --
all i want is the bandwith, which they provide
a-plenty. yes, i had to have it installed to a
win98 machine, but i quickly setup linux to use
dhcp and i've been up since.
brent
I needed to do this exact same thing, and ended up signing up with IBM.Net (now owned by AT&T, like everything else). Initial setup was over a web page, they had global pop's and all the manual information on their support pages, including some Linux tips, even though it is unsupported. Unfortunately now that AT&T has bought it, it is sinking into the toilet - I am beginning to encounter busy signals, clueless outsourced tech support (didn't know how to ping a server!) and user-hostile monthly changes to the Terms of Service. Time for me to move on....
A while back, when I helped run an ISP, We used the IEAK (internet explorer admin kit) because it was free, while many alternatives wanted 5 - 20 $ per user to distribute their software.... So I guess in a way, microsoft was paying them....
Look at it from Qwest's prospective, they are supporting software run by the majority of Americans on the majority of the machines out there. Expecting them to jump on the Linux bandwagon when less than 1% of the population can even figure out how to install it is ridiculous. If Qwest gets a lot of people not signing up or switching to another service then they will start supporting Linux/NT. It's a simple mater of market economics. In 1955 you wouldn't have expected your local auto-parts store to carry parts for a Toyota the demand wasn't there! Qwest will support Linux/NT when there is a reasonable demand and when they can make a profit at it. I don't have the time to waste getting another login and password. Steve Kasper
Well, almost! :-) Just need some volunteers to help with the coding! Check out http://www.foo.org/aol/james/projects.html
this whole thread is kind of confusing. i live in omaha nebraska, and practically every local isp is either running linux or bsd, or have moved on up the money chain to solaris. most of them will be more than happy to help you with a linux or bsd setup, even mac. i've never had to use any 'special' software to sign-up, just gave em a call and credit card, and boom, got dial-up. i now use @home which doesn't support linux, though i have called tech support on a couple of occasions and when the tech says they don't support linux, i just ask him what he wants to know and provide him with the information. the last time i called the guy asked me to hit my start button, i laughed and told him i don't have a start button, he then asked if i had a mac, and i said no. seemed pc meant microsoft to him. after i told him i use linux, he said they didn't support that, so i asked what had he wanted me to do under windows, and he said release and renew the dhcp. didn't work, but my point is that alot of this is common ground. every isp i know of requires tcp/ip, a dialup or cable, an ip, a dns, and a gateway. as most isp's in my area have shown, it's not to hard to make sure somebody has everything required to connect. but then again i am in backasswards nebraska... go figure... btw if you can handle annoying banners, netzero offers free dialup, though for windows only.
it is scary but you have a point...If you 'turn' away the serious web enthusiasts then you are left with casual surfers and emailers, less support, less bandwidth, no messy server requirements, or those silly shell accounts and FTP..sheesh.....
Bell Atlantic? I think you mean HELL Atlantic. I can't believe that sorry bunch of clowns actually call themselves a phone company.
And there is no need to go around insulting all the guys born out of wedlock. Worthless describes Hell Atlantic pretty well, though.
Luke, I am your phone company. Join the--*CLICK* We're sorry, your call cannot be completed as dialed...
I doubt MS would get Qwest to force people use use Windows, but with the Netscape browser. So anyone who thinks this is MS inspired is nuts.
Since pppd 2.3.6, there has been a usepeerdns option. It should fetch the IP addresses of the DNS servers supplied by the ISP and write them to a file. (The 2.3.6 implementation is supposedly buggy, so just get the latest version.)
See the README file that comes with pppd for more information.
I suppose that the customized Netscape probably uses export-grade encryption. And then you're stuck with it even when a security fix comes out, because you have to use that version.
and that's how it works, network sharing.
If I were you I would try to avoid Q-west at all costs. They have switched my long distance service twice without my authorization. This is called slamming and it is illegal. The last time they even called my local phone company, pretended to be my wife and stwiched on my long distance provider. After a couple months I am still fighting with them to get a credit for all their illegal charges. Because of my experiences with this company I will not have anything to do with them even if they offer me five cents a minute/ 24 fours a day all week or any kind of internet deal. cheers, anonymous coward
I love linux and use it most of the time, but it's important to think critically about the kinds of decisions businesses make. Granted, it's possible that if the system worked with any version of Netscape then possibly lots of highly computer-literate geeks would start publicizing the program and money would actually be made. However, this is the difference between perception and reality, and it effects more than just internet connectivity.
Someone should write an open-source registration widget so that the system will work with linux and make it publically available...
OSS doesn't have a marketing team, so we have to take responsibility for showing businesses that there is a profit to be made by selling connectivity (for example) to linux users. All we need in order to acheive world domination is a few little nudges in the right direction.
Incidentally, whining about unfairness and microsoft anti-linux plots does nothing but make the linux community look like a herd of strange.
Yes, I realize that there are other non-windows users out there, and I probably should have said "non-windows" instead of "linux" above.
mmmurf
Darnit! I have moderator points, but I blocked them by posting to this thread.
Insightful, for what it's worth.
AC 'cuz Rob would get mad if everyone found out who is moderator.
What's it for?
Only a pure guess, but the only reasons I could think of (for xDSL especially) would be pre-configured to use http-proxy servers, or even hardwired to use such things.
They told me I couldn't even register for Worldnet without using their software. Of course, I'd have to wait 2 weeks for them to mail me the CD. I couldn't belive it. I sure as heck am not going to wait 2 weeks for internet access.
And don't you forget it. I ain't lettin' no company own any part of me (unless they want to pay _me_ for it... ;-) I do what I want, when I want, how I want. This means I run linux. I'm a rebel, I'm cool. I'd own a Porsche 911 turbo, but ain't flush. I'd code everything in hex, but can't coun't that high (joke). ;-)
If I ran windows for everything, and paid for my apps, I'd have to own a Lada, eat at the soup kitchen, and live in a box. Probably one of those larger than life Windows '95 boxes, since all the fridge boxes are taken by all the other Windows 0wned. Couldn't afford aything else.
When they asked what OS I had I said win3.1, when they showed up, I got the guy to give me information and entered it in os/2's TCP/IP notebook, rebooted and I was set... No software was installed, tech support calls I give them information on where their problem was (simple tcp tools), what they don't know doesn't hurt them.
The only propietary thing that I could detect in the latest version was that it hardcodes the proxy settings to point to their servers (you can change them but the change does not stick the next time you open the browser).
Also, another idea is to do away with the ISPs DNS altogether... Use one of the root servers... These addresses are available all over the place. For example internic.ca (for I'm in Canada) has its DNS at 207.236.110.187 You only NEED the address of A DNS server... not the one for that ISP.
I have used AT&T worldnet and if you use Linux (or anything) you should be aware they they are running some firewalls/packet filters on their dialups, and I saw lots of weird stuff happen, especially having ICMP get blocked every now and then. Don't be surprised if traceroute suddenly gives you nothing. They also are running routers on private address space (192.168.x.x) and are doing address translation or some other weird shit. I could never get mobile ip to work right with them either. Their POP boxes are firewalled; you can't get your e-mail unless you are dialed in to one of their dialup lines, and often they fuck up their firewall settings and you can't get your e-mail at all. Take my advice and stay away from Worldnet...
Anybody with half a brain can solve this problem.
I work at a small educational ISP and right now we distro Navigator 3.0 and provide support for any Netscape browser.
If the lusers want to use Internet Exploder or (more frequently) Outlook Express, I first make it clear that while they are welcome to use whatever tools they want with our service, we don't, won't and can't provide any tech support for these packages. If this doesn't scare them off, I'm happy to give them the mail server info they'll need.
I'm sure most local ISP's handle things this way. It's just the national ones that pull this kind of "can't get there from here" shit.
actually, its exactly 200 million. chump change for microsoft and quick capital for qwest....
Interesting...
Since I work for one of the companies that AT&T outsources to, I find this a bit amusing. More than 80% of the support agents are absolute morons who could troubleshoot except they have access to a decent database of errors to read from. But I digress. It's interesting to hear about busy signals and such, since we're still under the understanding that NO personel changes or network changes have occured yet. They keep pushing back the date that WorldNet will take over control of IBMNet. My agents (who would be competent and know how to ping a server or else face my wrath) get several calls a day from IBM customers who have to be referred back to the standard IBM line.
As an insider, i can tell you that the *technical* staff would be pleased as punch if the upper management and marketing would officially acknowledge linux as a supported platform. The technicians all use it themselves almost exclusively.
:)
Qwest has contracted all dial-up ppp services out to Concentric. period. Thus the use of concentric's numbers & policies. (i do believe that Qwest's marketing and customer support folks were involved in the decision to officially support only microsoft operating systems, etc. most likely 2nd and 3rd tier support handled by concentric if so.)
it's been my experience that our first-line support staff are never more than shop-sweepers transplanted, so don't expect anything from them except annoyance. (we do a horrible job with this, i concur)
next, one can definitely dial into concentric's pools via linux...
finally, microsoft DID invest in qwest. i believe it was either 100 or 200 million us dollars. (i can't remember just this minute) this money is working capital for qwest, and meaningless to microsoft except as a carrot imho. there were the usual inquiries and undesired witchhunts: "hey, that would be a perfect application to house on a microsoft platform!" and other such nonsense.
All in all, i'm not too pleased about their decisions, but i do understand how they got to them...
As always, honey & vinegar are bipolar. Be smart about your queries to Qwest's customer service.
ABS sucks, I used to work for an ISP that got their connect from them. We couldn't even get phone calls or emails back from them about connectivity issues. Their security is crap and they are understaffed as well. BTW if you do talk to them say hi to Willie for me. geoff
I've had absolutely no problems with ibm.net they provide slip and ppp scripts for linux users. The only difference is that if you're travelling, you have to change the dialup numbers by hand. Don't know if things will remain the same when they become att.net, but keeping fingers crossed.
ac.uk
PAP/CHAP/MS-CHAP is a form of Authentication. PPPPoint to Point Protocal), hmm. the second person in this thread to misspell PROTOCOL... so there it is.
In a conversation about ISP'S that don't work under linux, I would think one of the first ones to be mentioned would be netzero. Netzero leases connections from local isp's so in many areas you can get really good connections with no busy signals. It should be possible to do because they use a dial-up networking connection in windows (they don't save the data, they use a hidden terminal and I suppose sendkeys or DDE or some such thing to login, thus allowing the login to be kept secret.)
I have had four ISPs this year. For the first three I had to talk them down from a tree when I told them what my OS was but really all you have to do is get a few simple facts out of them for the initial connection params which I found possible to do in each case. One thing I've noticed is that since Microsoft clients autonegotiate PAP/clear text login most support people don't know what they are using. My current ISP in Central Virginia couldn't figure out my connection problem for two weeks - all the while insisting they did not use PAP - and I was to lazy to check. That turned out to be the problem - bah!
Hey, I'm working as a Contractor for qwest. Apparently Microsoft owns 25% of this company. Micosoft tells these guys that they must us MS products ONLY, unless there is some feature that MS products doesn't have/support. Scary!
Most large ISP's, in an effort to take there hand out of account maintenance, require that the intended new user create their own account. They accomplish this by creating an application that connects to their secure network, allows the user to enter their information, and then writes all of the necessary connection and mail information to the browser/email package of choice. I believe it is this way for Qwest as well. The application is designed to work for Win/Mac because that is where their users come from. Sure the Linux community feels left in the cold, but that is because all two-hundred of you are. Sorry. Quit your bitching.
This is the problem that we were running into. Hopefully one of the wonderful people here that knows Linux (as I don't) will be able to provide you with instructions on setting up a PAP login. Most Linux users that used to call us knew how to set up PPP with a scripted login, but not the PAP. I wish I could tell you more, but once you get that PAP login configured, it should work fine.
The reason that there isn't a Linux box in the building is all based on training. There are some very intelligent individuals that work there, but as in school, they have to train to the lowest common denominator, which means Linux can't be trained. I agree that everyone should know the TCP/IP settings and try to be as helpful as possible, but the supervisors push to have the proprietary software used for sign-up, and some support reps just are not capable of learning Linux, because it is too unfamiliar. It's sad yes, but with the high demand for computer savvy people, and the high stress and relative low pay for tech support, the beszt and brightest move away from answering the phones to designing the network.
I am an MSN user. But I use linux for all my connectivity needs. UUNET (SP for MSN) happily connects me to MSN with fairly good speed everytime. No problems so far. Go figure
I remember having to quit AOL when I became a Linux user. I kinda got AOL working with WINE but I needed to establish a PPP connection with another ISP to do it and it wasn't really usable. Yeah, all you are gonna say I'm a wuss and AOL sucks but I could get any MP3 or game I wanted in 20 minutes from chat room mass mails while using AOL and now that I use Linux I can never find any MP3s I am looking for.
If MS was paying them off, or even encouraged Qwest to do this, they would have encouraged IE as well. The fact that they are using Navigator means that Qwest was likely just being lazy, because most people still use Win9X. (as much as /. readers hate to admit it) Sometimes, people choose Microsoft for non-robber-baron reasons. Yeesh... I know you folks hate MS but not everything is a conspiracy!
Every OS they support they need trained taff on hand. Windows 9x is used by 90% of the people who will be using their service and there is really no reason why they should spend a ton of money to make the other 10% happy.
This person should have asked up front if the service would work with Linux.
Yet another reason why people should not be pushing Linux on the desktop until it really is ready.
Almost, but not quite unrelated:
I had never heard of Qwest until they charged my phone bill with a $3 charge. I called them to ask why they were charging me, and they couldn't explain it, so they refunded it.
They sounded fishy to me all around.
Earthlink supports Linux officially. Good tech support.
Harvard.net sells DSL in the Northeast (MA-NH-ME, maybe other states) and I haven't gotten any Windows guff from them. They just give out your IP addresses and DNS addresses, and you set it up yourself. Maybe that's because their pricing scares off a lot of Windows lusers (minimum $159/month) and they get stuck with lots of highly clued Unix-using customers.
And no, you don't have to run a MS-platform box to get set up. Just call the 800 number and tell them you want an account. (Don't mention Linux :) They'll set you up in no time. If they get confused, you might have to explain that you don't want to run their custom software--you just want an internet connection. :) (Mentioning Windows NT can help as well.)
The connection is normal PPP through UUNet. You can use Minicom to dial the POP and you'll get a text chat you can use to login. They also support PAP/CHAP.
The problem here, as everywhere, is support. MSN doesn't even support Windows NT. It's just Win95/98. However, for the busy Linux nerd on the go, the service is great.
HAH, slashdot effect on their 800 number. That's a good one
Paying them off? Not necessary, Microsoft owns some non-insignificant portion of Qwest ($3-4 billion)
I work for a small ISP in my area here, and I can tell you from my experience, several reasons why some ISPs will not support other OS's than windows based ones.
For one thing, and this is probably alot more common with smaller ISPs than larger ones, they just might not know how to set it up (I know this is true, because our competitor's are like that, they couldn't set up anything other than windows machine if you told them how to) Which is really pretty amazing, since you would expect to even be able to run an ISP you'd HAVE to know something about that, but they don't, they pay some outside guy to do it.
This is not true with us, however, since we're a little smarter and tend to only hire intelligent human beings, we will support any OS that comes along, even if it means we have to drive 40 minutes to their house to get it set up for them.
Any OS should be able to connect find to any ISP that isn't running full of proprietary software, (i.e. AOL)
Maybe the real reason that they only let people use windows is because they know that the average windows user is stupid, and hence they can get alot of money out of tech-support and what not. Makes sense I guess, if you want money.
Use this information wisely, and please don't go researching phone numbers, do you remember what you did to the poor woman at Unisys? Keep the comments rational, and don't overreact just yet, you don't know all the information. Maybe a rational query of Qwest will turn it up.
Anyway, Qwest's feedback page.
Regards,
Basically it works like this, the CD that is sent out by sales includes a product code that keeps your billing in order as well as creates your login. This can also be done by calling the support line, NOT sales. We had the ability to create the account while the customer was on the phone AND give them the mail, DNS and dialer settings. The hitch is that the required connection type is PAP, not PPP. The Linux users that I spoke with could not get a PAP login to work, which is the way Dial Up Networking in Win95/98 will connect. So this Qwest deal is fine, the trick is knowing when to call tech support.
And a further extension of the "OS Discrimination" is that roughly 85-90% of users are using Windows (3.x, 95, 98, 2000) or Mac OS. These systems are also the ones taught in school (K-12 and beginning college courses). The problem with getting an ISP to fully support Linux all lies in the training. Most ISPs can provide general settings, but not troubleshoot specific problems. One would see much the same if they were using OS/2 or BeOS. The added cost to train individuals in these systems is far greater than the benefits, because there is more to a PPP connection than a dialer, the rep needs to understand the underlying OS in order to make "tweaks" that will allow support for some modem strings, and general error code checks.
I know that this is going to draw flames, but what should a Windows user expect these days?
While i was in France, i had a laptop with me
:-/
(and was forced to use windows to connect! damn winmodems..)
and bought their kit in one of their shop
(cost me like 30$ US for 15h? damn expensive!)...
After trying to setup the damn account with their cdrom, i came to the conclusion that you had to 1st use windows (which i was using) but 2nd, have a french version! I have a US one...(they installed a modified version of IE with their logo instead of a spinning (e), and i had to connect to a special server that creates the account and then connect to another to be online...anyway i finally got online after a couple of hours(and a couple telephone)...but the initial software i was supposed to use never worked, kind of remind me of an AOL registration session...)
I dont understand why you cant just call up their ISP and register and get online within 10 minutes, thats the way it works where i live
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Yeah i know, its just that if i remember correctly, their special application to register forced you to install their IE to continue or something like that (it was last christmas, i dont remember exactly :)
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It's clear from both the original article and the other comments from people who have dealt with Qwest that this was not an issue of simple trouble configuring Linux.
Qwest requires additional information to initiate the account. The only documented way to supply that information, and start the Qwest account, is to connect with their Windows software. In other words, they effectively prevent non-windows users from accessing their service. Some people suggest good workarounds, but Qwest is not volunteering any such information. Considering how much money Microsoft is dumping into Qwest, this behaviour is hardly surprising.
I don't expect every ISP to fully support every operating system out there. I do think it is reasonable to expect every ISP out there to support generic TCP/IP. That is to say, someone who knows how to configure TCP/IP and communications on their OS of choice should be able to get the basic information and connect with it, without needing any special software. That is not too much to ask, but too many big ISP's (eg. Qwest, AOL, Compuserve) refuse to support this basic level of connectivity.
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----
Open mind, insert foot.
Well, I'm logged on to @home right now, using Netscape Communicator 4.61 in Linux. And for my national dialup ISP I use (as I always have) Primenet/GlobalCenter, which still gives me a Unix shell and server-resident Lynx when I'm in the mood - for well under $20 per month - and the few times I've needed tech support from them over the years I've gotten smart, helpful people.
I work for a fairly large local ISP in Phoenix AZ, and we basically offer some degree of technical support for any piece of hardware of software technically capable of working with our service, regardless of whether or not we've seen it before. We mostly do Win95/98, but we'll help you with Mac OS or NT, and give you all the basic info you need for Linux or anything else. We never tell anyone "sorry, you have to have this or this in order to use our service," although we may say "I've never heard of that before, so if you can't figure it out I probably won't be able to help you."
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
Not support. If you have ever worked at an ISP, you know that most of the support goes into the "casuals" who don't know how to setup their accounts or figure out just exactly what the caps lock key does.
-Erik-
The people who set these kinds of policies are costing their companies money and should be fired. Mac users, in particular, form a significant share of the home market.
Keeping the setup procedure standard would 1/ reduce development costs (why customize the browser?) 2/ reduce support costs (users who know their way around a standard installation wouldn't have to call for help), 3/ increase revenue (10% is actually a whole lot of revenue when you figure their infrastructure costs are more-or-less fixed - most of the 10% would be straight profit).
Nobody is saying their customer service has to support every OS in the world, but making it easier for anybody to connect (with any operating system) is good business.
I get really annoyed when Dilbertesque executives display their incompetance so clearly.
It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail. - Abraham Maslow
Mindspring works with everything, although if you live in a big city (like Atlanta, where I am.) the dial-ups are constantly clogged.
-[ World domination - rains.net ]-
Well, pppd on Linux can be built with CHAP-80 support (iirc, the patch is included with the ppp source package, and you have to get a DES library to do it, but it does work).
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
Recently I received a mailing from BellSouth advertising their new ADSL service in my area. It looked like a good deal, but when I called to find out if it was linux-compatible, I found out that it was Windows only, allegedly because they have a "special version" of Netscape optimized to use their service. (As if a normal version of Netscape couldn't handle higher-than-modem bandwidth?)
I also found out that the program isn't even run from around here, but by a company out in California. Maybe it's the same company Qwest is using?
What's the deal with all these "special" versions of Netscape? It doesn't seem to make business sense to exclude various customers arbitrarily, and this bit about a "special" netscape doesn't seem to make technical sense at all. What's it for?
It's a mystery to me.
(currently testing something about signatures here)
Thanks, AC, I don't know what I'd do without your guidance. Your idea is much better than simply taking my money to an ISP with a clue. Really.
btw, I'm using swbell.net for my isp. They have _really_ good support for non-windows tcp/ip based machines (they don't even ask).
:) After a year and a half of this, I cancelled, and wrote them a nice long letter explaining why.
How did you get them to support you? What is your secret?
I used swbell.net for about a year and a half with my ISDN line, and had NOTHING but trouble getting any sort of help. A typical call started out like this:
Them: "Are you using Windows or Macintosh?"
Me: "Neither.. I'm using a Linux system."
Them: "Oh, we don't support that."
Problems ranged from an inability to authenticate (PAP auth timeouts) to an incorrect IP assignment (pppd would request 10.0.0.1, my eth0 address, and their servers would occasionally *acknowledge* that request instead of NAK'ing it and providing their own, which would be normal behavior) to major packet loss inside their network.
I never got them to acknowledge the first two problems, which started/stopped/started as they upgraded their terminal servers to various software revisions (and, for argument's sake, could quite possibly be a problem with pppd, but my instincts say otherwise). Whenever I'd call or e-mail and bring it up (complete with PPP/LCP packet traces), they would have no idea what to do with what info I'd pasted and would simply say, "Nobody else has complained of this exact problem." What they fail to realize is that under Windows, *it simply disconnects you*. You don't get a message saying "PAP authentication timed out!" Since Windows users are accustomed to links dropping randomly and machines requiring reboots all the time, it's no surprise that they don't call their ISP, and even if they do, the only information the ISP has to go on is "my modem seems to occasionally randomly disconnected right after I make the call, or at some point afterwards." I figured I was doing them a *favor* by giving them the precise PPP packets that caused the problem in the first place.
To even report packet loss I would either have to pray for a clueful tech (which happened only once, but I think it was a supervisor I got that time), or I'd have to call back and pretend to be a poor Windows sap with the same problem (naturally I'd have to dumb down my description of the problem, since Windows dialogs are much less informative than, say, a verbose pppd log), which only occasionally resulted in a quick investigation by them, which resulted in a "Oh, wow, it seems you're right. We do seem to be having problems in your area." response. Forget an e-mail with a traceroute pasted in it. I invariably get an e-mail 3 days later that says, "I have no idea what the problem is, but everything seems to be working fine on our end. Let us know if you're still having problems and we can try giving you a new init string."
You have no idea how many times I would call up and the first thing the tech would suggest is a new MODEM INITIALIZATION STRING. Remember: I'm using an ISDN line. I would clearly state this in my opening greeting.
To make matters worse, swbell.net techs apparently do not receive announcements from nor are they able to query any engineering or network staff (except *maybe* via their supervisors, which they are reluctant to do). Worst of all, they do not have access to any form of connection history or diagnostics about your dialup link. The only thing they can seem to pull up on their screen is your billing info and (what appears to be) a single text box with tech comments from previous calls. Without crucial information such as past connection histories (that describe disconnection reasons, among other things), diagnosing connection-related problems becomes *impossible*. The extent of their support for these types of things is simply a new init string.
*Pathetic* support, *especially* for Linux.
I have no problem with tech support being Windows-oriented, but I *do* have a problem with techs freaking out or just repeating,"We don't support that," when a non-OS-specific connection problem occurs and I'm not using Windows.
You'll have to pardon my rant.
Didn't I recently read somewhere that the Linux user base had passed MacOS user base? I don't question that Win95 is probably the most commonly used OS still, but I guess somehow I got the impression that Linux was more common than MacOS now.
Anyone know for sure?
After an upgrade to the NT RAS we were unable to dial into work from Linux. We persuaded them to step down the security so that we wouldn't have to deal with MS-CHAP 80. However, it still took a couple of us two or three months (we're busy with other things too!) to get the connection going again. I was already using PAP with my ISP, but this other connection to work was a b***h! To make it worse, all the Windows people gave me a hard time because it worked everytime for them :(
Don't make a fuss about the modified IE logo... it doesn't mean that the underlying app has been modified. It's really easy: create a couple of picture files (pcx??) for the large and small icons, and then modify HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Toolbar. I know this because I had to clean up after a program failed to install properly and it modified the logo.
AOL can really be used in linux? I guess you could dial up and use wine or vmware to run it, but gosh, I thought it was strickly windows. If you go through all that trouble though, just go with a regular isp :)
--
Scott Miga
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
If MS were involved in this, I doubt it would be Netscape shipping on those Quest CD's... I think Quest is just catering to what they think is the largest installed userbase. Ask if they have a Mac version of the software, if not, the politely tell them that You cannot use they're service until a version for you favorite platform is available. Then watch how quickly they react....
Do not read this
Setting up the PAP authentication on Linux took a couple of tries, but now it's flawless. The key is to make the dialer wait the right amount of time before turning the process over to pppd. Sending and receiving email works with Netscape though I can't yet send with nmh :-(. And they don't yet offer multiple email accounts :-(.
-- Jim Crigler In 1937, I began, like Lazarus, the impossible return. -- Whittaker Chambers
Ditto. I just recently ditched their service (after they switched from Unlimited access to 150 hours/month) in favor of a Maryland ISP called ABSnet. Pretty good ISP. But BellAtlantic did work with Linux, except with the pppd setup I cooked up it took like 20 seconds after dialled to finalize the PPP connection (get to the ip-up execution stage et al)
the real at&t mix
Freeserve in the UK uses a customized version of IE4 which has been scripted with the 'phone number to call, and a special registration account name and password. It then uses normal HTML to complete the registration.
After registering this way you can dialup from any OS to your freeserve account, even though they too only claim to support Windows (for support reasons as pointed out before).
So I should try the software to register, then start nosing around the DUN properties to find out what 'phone number it calls, etc.
That would be correct. I have an AT&T account I use regularly. While the sign-up *does* require a Windows box (or maybe a Mac; I forget), it tells you during the setup where it has stored your account name and password. POP those into your Linux PPP config, and it works like a champ.
Well, assuming their modems answer, but that's another story.
Dreamweaver's okay as far as visual web apps go. But if there's one dream program that I know of, it's BBEdit. It doesn't suck, and it edits text like a champ, with lots of little extras that help a lot (like grep for those of us with no grep in the OS).
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
My new ISP uses Solaris and Linux internally, so it's not hard to find a geek there who can help me out. This is an advantage of dealing with a small ISP. I signed up with them for my sDSL Service, and they were kind enough to hook me up with dialup while my DSL was delayed at the switch. This was good, because my former ISP (one of those 3 NT boxes and a terminal server in a rack sorts of ISPs) couldn't seem to make reverse DNS function consistently... and my 6 month contract was up.
My new ISP is even going so far as to set up the static address block that I requested, on my dialup, so I can just hop over to the DSL when it becomes available. And they use Linux.
True... it's the result of leaving out the http://
Various ramblings
Bell Atlantic has almost the same policy. But I was able to get through to customer service and convince them that I could set it up on my own. They just had to provide me with the information. They don't offer free long distance, though
A year or so ago when I signed up for their service, something was broken on the webform. (Can't remember what it was now). Anyways, I called tech support and told them the form was broken, and it was really no problem to sign up over the phone and still get the $25 setup fee waived. You probably just have to ask.
Anyway, very nice national ISP, friendly techs, 100% Linux compatable.
Brian
I use uswest.net right now, but will be dropping them soon...
When I first signed up, I filled out the online form, then a tech person contacted me to confirm and configure. I was running Mac OS 8.5 (8.6 now). The set up they tried to give me was for OS 7.5, and would not work with my system. I tried to have the tech just give me the info so I could configure my machine myself, but it took me talking to 4 different tech people over three evenings before they gave up trying to tell me there was no other way besides their way and just give me the tcp/ip settings.
After I was up and running, I found I could only connect at 24600, not the 56K they advertise. Turns out uswest.net was "unable to get the modem strings" my iMac uses and could not make their system work any faster. After much complaining I was told that uswest.net wasn't really supporting their dial-up system any more. Instead, they were focusing on ISDN and DSL, and would I like to sign up for either? Oh, wait, the wires in my apartment are kind of old and won't really work with ISDN or DSL.
Anyway, Qwest now owns USWest, and uswest.net... I wonder when they'll say my system is no longer compatable with theirs?
-jazon
This is our Cry, This is our Prayer: Peace In The World
-Sadako Sasaki Peace Memorial, Hiroshi
They don't support Linux, but they'll provide some tech notes for you to wade thru (which is very Linuxy thing to do).
So please don't just rant against Qwest et. al.
Support the folks who do listen! Let them know we approve.. and that we're watching.
-----
".sig,
The reason Qwest requires Win9x is to simplify support. NT is very different to configure for dial-up than 9x is, and don't even talk about Linux or Mac
The other reason is that they want to make it easy for their customers to sign up. So they make this do-it-all CD, which happens to only work on 95/98. That's the moment they ship the thing.
What they should realize is that giving a dial-in-number, username, password, DNS IP and a few others, will suffice for many other-os-users.
My cable-modem stops transmitting data after an hour of uploading. Two months after reporting that, the helpdesk comes back with click this, click that for me to check my MTU and stuff. Brilliant!
Roger.
I'm sorry, but just because a company doesn't support an operating system, I still think it's fairly stupid to restrict access to just windows. Providing a way for people using "alternative" OSes to connect would not cost a vast amount of money (connecting to an ISP is a fairly common procedure) and they can still claim "We don't support linux" to users who have problems with that. How many slashdot readers use a free unix? Lots - and none of them can use Qwest.
--
Everything I know in life I learnt from
here.
I hope that in the future, more ISPs will become more "enlightened" in this manner.
I was rather surprised and delighted to find that the ISP I moved to this summer (for DSL) was willing to help w/Linux. Although they don't say that they support it, they put someone on the phone that actually knew what the hell I was talking about. My problems turned out to be a miscommunication having to do w/the HW addy of the netcard, but at least I had them saying "check ifconfig" instead of winipcfg :)
:)
Go for epix.net if you want a good Linux friendly ISP in PA
I live in Canada, and I have tried many various ISPs around here. I am currently on accglobal.net which runs BSD internally, and only officially support Windows, but when I signed up, I jsut asked for the DNS servers and phone number over the phone so I could set it up in Linux, they happily gave it to me, I even told tme not to bother sending me their software cd, and they had no problem with that. Videotron, the cable modem service in my area also does not officially support Linux, but I phoned asking about it, and the guy I talked to actually said that he runs Linux at home, and it works fine. The only reason why I am not cable right now is they have a quota in my area, and i dont think i could handle having a download or upload quota (6gb/month for download, 1gb/month upload). I have also set up several other ISPs in Linux for frinds of mine, and i have never encountered an ISP that linux did not eventually work fine with (one local ISP took some prodding because they use some funky login scripts)
Very, VERY nice. They do have their own dialer, but it's optional. AFAIK, you can configure everything on the web site, and activate your account immediately, provided that you have a major credit card.
The dialup service is very good. For some of the POPs they use UUNet's hardware, but that doesn't bother me - as long as it works. They also provide dialup service in Canada.
The service is $19.95 a month. They may have some discounts for pay-in-advance, but I never checked. There is a registration fee of $25, but it is waived if you sign up online.
6MB of web space, POP3, SMTP, fast dialup, etc.
You get a month free for every person you refer, but I've found it to be a pain in the ass, as they require you to go through a painful confirmation.
Other things include a thin deadtree magazine, an email once in a while,
More info here...
--
If I remember correctly, Worldnet stores their usernames and passwords in a text file or ini in the Windows directory.
There's a verification number in the CD package they sent me, but no way to get online without the CD.
So I booted in Windows and used their CD. It took me to their special full-screen login session, I went through it, and then got set up.
After that, I went through the Dial Up Networking, pulled all the information about the connection from there, went into IE, pulled the proxy information from there, rebooted, entered the information into Linux, and viola! I'm using the ISP from Linux.
~mindlace
Logging into linux, I had entered all the information into linuxconf/netcfg (yeah, I'm a redhat user. bleh), and tried to dial up. no dice. it'd dial in but wouldn't connect. then I got the bright idea of using minicom to connect. When I dialed in with minicom, I found somehting interesting... most unix boxes greet dialup users with "login:" and "password:" prompts, and most linux distros expect this, however, This server was running on WinNT, and has "Username:" and "Password:", thus, I'd have to change the configuration on what linux's ppp scripts should expect. instead of "ogin:", simply change it to "name:" and you should be fine. My friend, after getting his dialup working under linux, never went back to windows, as for some reason his Plug-N-Pray modem worked waaaay faster under linux than in windows.
if some clueful Debian or Slack user would help me out by telling these people what config files they have to edit to do what linuxconf and netcfg did for me (I really gotta learn the proper cfg files.)
hope this helps.
for some reason, I bet that you won't have to use PAP tho... but if you do, I'm prepared to eat my hat. :)
I took the liberty of reposting this for the benefit for the clever AC and those less humor-impaired than the moderator who thought he was a troll.
Free Mac Mini. Yes, I'm
BellSouth.net also requires either a Win or Max box to register (they won't take them over the phone), but once registered they'll give you the numbers you need to get on with any platform. I've been using BS.N for over three years with Linux and FreeBSD, and other than not getting any phone support I have no complaints.
BS.N does have several support newsgroups where I can give and get better support, anyway. Lots of fellow Unix-like users with BS.N.Only new issue I face with them is I can't get ADSL installed from them without a Win/Mac box, so I have to whip one up just long enough to psych out the install tech. Then it's back to pure Linux and FreeBSD for me, baby!
-> I dislike sigs...
Two ideas.
I wonder if you could get AOL's software to set up the ppp connection, and then cause UNIX to hijack it by grabbing the serial port, killing off the windows client. This hinges on getting pppd to grab onto an aready started connection, and that AOL's pp prtocol isn't weird.
When I set up an AT&T Canada account, the only way to set up was trough setting up their browser, which was programmed to open automatically to a non-published site where registration took place. I just mounted their CD on my linux box and started grepping through the IE4 setup files, and I found the url I was looking for in an ini file, then it was just a matter of loading up the page. There were some silly javascript checks which I had to bypass, but nothing much.
Look through the setup files.
--------- Matt
Uswest.net does exactly the same sort of thing. Their account setup program is java based, and tied into Netscape.
.net though, you can get them to do a manual registration if you push hard enough, or you can also register online.
.net's online registration let you enter any activation code you might have to get the proper price plan...
The difference is that it functions with Win 3.X, 9X, and NT along with some MACs...
In the case of
Perhaps Qwest offers these options?
What does this button d$#%* NO CARRIER
AT&T worldnet requires that you signup with a piece of windows software and then is configured to work only with their dialer (windows only).
I figured out that I could get windows to dialup and connect without the AT&T dialer. So I tried to read the userid/password out of the windows dial up networking configuration, but the install software configured a password for me, without telling me what it was, or allowing me to change it. Go figure.
I had to call AT&T's support and get them to read me this ten digit gibberish password over the phone so that I could setup a ppp script in linux. AT&T claims that it is done this way for security sake.
But I did get it working in Linux.
-josh
Our Man in Redmond and Sloppy are using 'support' in 2 different senses.
Our Man in Redmond is thinking "provide technical support for," while Sloppy is thinking "provide functionality."
An ISP _should_ support communications standards (provide functionality.) And commercial ISP's do need to support common desktop operating systems (provide technical support for.)
Mindspring.
I did not origonaly sign up for mindspring they kind of swallowed my previous ISP contracts.
Some of the Mindspring connectios are busy that depends on the area. They usually have many numbers for several areas, and since the recently merged with Earthlink, I imagine that they will possible have to ahve more numbers.
They also have limited support for Linux, they will point you in the right direction to the faq or howto, and they have some stuff like that. They also have stuff for windows users, that is quite a nice package althoguh a little memory intensive last time I tried it (over a year ago).
They have very good technical support and a good tech staff. I guess you woudl call me a satisfied customer.
I pay $20 a month for unlimited access, plus email, an d5 Megs of web space. THe only limit I have is on my Web SITE's bandwidth. I am only allowed 225Megs transfer a month thru my web site. NOTE this has nothing to do with my web surfing it is the amount of bandwidth theat someone else consumes when they visit MY web site. They ahve a @6.95 a month deal which allows for 10 Megs of web space, 3 email accounts, and also 450 Megs of web site bandwidth.
The only complaint I have had with them is the limitation on web site bandwidth, as there have been occasions that I have accually come close to have it consumed up.
All in all I rate them pretty well. Having never used Quest I cannot say. It sounds good, but ask them if there are any advertisements that you are going to get stuck seeing, also ask them what software they give you when you sign up. Mindspring will send you a cdrom for Win or Mac if you need it with all the software bundled on it.
Just my 2 cents.
Only 'flamers' flame!
The problem is that they are supporting operating systems instead of communications standards. I don't want my ISP to support my OS; I want them to support TCP/IP. If they even ask what OS I'm running, then something is terribly wrong with them.
---
Have a Sloppy day!
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
For all of Ameritech's weirdness about other things, they have a set of web pages that lets you get all the info you need to sign up and log in, all through a browser. I signed up and logged in directly through Linux (all in the same session). I haven't even gotten around to setting up Windows to dial up yet. Obviously, you need a functioning Internet connection to get this information (which I did). Later pages assume you will use Windows or a Mac, but I just ignored these.
I always just use 'whois' to find the DNS servers. They may not be local, but they work. You obviously need a functioning network account to do this. Once running, you can get a better number later.
Looking up aol.com tells you to look up AOL-DOM, and if you do this, it gives:
DNS-01.NS.AOL.COM 198.81.17.232
DNS-02.NS.AOL.COM 205.188.157.232
As you somewhat note at the end...there's a big difference between "supporting" (as in being able to answer technical support questions), and having a setup that supports (as in, it can work) an operating system. Qwest seems to have made a conscious choice to only support (as in, it can work) Win95/98. That's dumb, IMHO. Its just not that terribly hard to set up an ISP so that a wide variety of operating systems work.
Jeff
>Not only is this a reinforcement of the Microsoft monopoly (are they paying ISPs to do this?)
MSFT has made several significant investments and "strategic partnerships" with Qwest, so...basically, yes.
Jeff
The Qwest dialup is still a PPP connection. PAP is the *authentication* method used during session setup to identify the user, but PAP is incorporated into PPP (and well-supported under Linux, although it may take a little work to get it set up). The difference isn't that Qwest doesn't use PPP, it's that some ISPs use traditional scripted logins (text-based prompts) whereas Qwest only uses PAP.
Why would you want to go with one of those crappy national ISP's that have terrible service and require Windows specific software? Go with MindSpring.
Although they don't officially support Linux, they very Linux friendly, have a great service, they are the only national ISP that I know of that does not take on new clients if they don't have the bandwidth, and they require no special software to use their service.
They even have Linux articles in their online knowledge base. Which is nice since I run nothing but Linux at home.
MindSpring is cool!
You can sign up at 1-888-mspring :)
-Bryan p.s. I don't work for MindSpring.In my experience Windows 95 crashes more than Windows NT and of course more than Linux. These ISP's like the crash because you have a better chance of losing the connection and thus lose it a large part of the time that you are not actually there to use it. Servers are discouraged and fewer of their resources are used. Also if you need to to connect through their software each time you reconnect you are there to see any advertising. They would much better be serving packets to eyeballs than to an unattended box.
I could not get AOL 4.0 to work on my NT laptop and they indeed told me NT was not supported. And before you flame, my work paid for the AOL and asked that i have that available as a backup connection. Also, since some of the execs had AOL at home they wanted me to be familiar with it to support them.
I finally got the account cancelled because they refused to do anything to support NT.
--- If you don't want to know the answer, don't ask the question.
1) the 16 bit is inadequate because it did not work with some applications that i needed.
2)AOL 4.0 install quit with an error message that said that the os was not Windows 9x.
--- If you don't want to know the answer, don't ask the question.
I guess I'm lucky. My ISP not only supports linux but hosts www.linuxberg.com.
What I'd like to see is one of the Linux Support vendors step up and build a contract with some of the major ISPs. That way, if you are having Linux problems, you call AOL, and AOL refers you to their Linux Support Vendor.
:) They do support for a number of other companies, too like HP and Compaq.
:)
Actually this scenario is not too far fetched. Lots of ISPs already farm out a lot of their support. A perfect example is Concentric Network, which farms out a good portion of their support to a company in Southfield, MI called National Tech Team. You don't even know you're being connected to a different company: their 800 number simply transfers calls to NTT's HQ in Southfield.
I know this because I know a few people who have worked for NTT in this capacity. (And from what they tell me, you do NOT want to work in their call center. But thats a different story
It would be just as simple for AOL or Earthlink or whatever to forward you to some support vendor like LinuxCare ("IF you have windows 95 or 98 press [1]. If you have Linux press [2]...")
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a company like LinuxCare did that.
Lots of vendors say that they don't support other platforms, when in fact they are just using a standard PPP link. My service provider at one time fell into that category (I had to figure out how to setup Linux, and I didn't even have anything like easy like whats in KDE or Gnome--I had to setup chat and pppd by hand.) FlashNet has some very limited (Web-only) Linux support (i.e., you can download scripts and whatever from their page) but no phone support for Linux users.
Whats funny is that a number of their servers are Linux based.
My journal has hot
We have a linux router hooked up to Mediaone's cable modem service. Of course, they don't support linux. But they don't stop us from using it either.
:)"
Whenever I call up there tech support when I think the problem is on their end, I act as a Windows - Linux Translation layer:
Tech support guy: "Does your winipcfg box have all zeroes in it?"
Windows-Me: "Not getting DHCP OFFER"
Linux-Me: "Hmm, checking.... Nope, no offer message."
Real-Me: "Yes, all zeroes. Give me an IP, damnit
Some of the ideas suggested here, like only supporting certain communications protocols seems inpractical, unfortunatly. Tech support has to be able to reliably walk the _average_ user through a series of steps which will reliably fix the problem. Otherwise support costs spiral up.
I know, i know, linux users aren't average users. But, well damnit, we want linux on the desktop don't we?
-Snoot
This is the author. Here's the story so far:
My husband called Qwest's 1-800# after being told that he could (finally - the first call to customer service yielded a 'you can only activate your account via our proprietary software'), and the guy on the phone told him to type some stuff in Win95. He faked it - taped some keys while he was on the phone, and when the guy told him to try it, he said he only had one phone line. So it was a few days later that we tried it - and, of course, it didn't work. Even escaping the funky characters in the username didn't help. The problem seems to be in the cl/username@qwestinternet.net that they assign - we keep getting an 'Invalid Login' error. I would assume the problem is in the fact that is *is* PAP and not PPP (which noone ever says), but we're not even getting past the login, so it seems to me it should be something else (unless the authentication is different between the two protocols). We're still working on trying to get it to work before going down the 'ditch Qwest and find another long distance carrier *again* road.
If anyone has any suggestions on how to get it working, please email me at mur@telebot.com. I don't want to discriminate against people who are so actively pro-M$ (especially when they're giving way-cool deals), and I still think that even the extra hassle is worth the $50+ savings/mo, but if it doesn't work *at all*, then they're cutting off a growing segment of the computing world for what? Ease of support? Lack of training? It's a pitifully easy thing to toss Linux on a test machine in the building somewhere, and let a couple of people play with it for a few days.
I work for a large-ish tech support company (we do about 40 ISP's) and we would never support Linux. I mean, I have been using Linux for 5 years now and it's hard enough to troubleshoot my brother's system if his DSL isn't working.
I hate to say it, but Linux is still at the point that if you have a non-standard setup (roll your own, i mean) and you can't read the HOWTO's to get your PPP working, you're SOL.
I did take a call where some kid wanted to get his connection working in Linux. Took me 5 minutes to find out that he didn't install any of the PNP tools or networking _anything_ on his system (which was Redhat 4.2!) Ironicly, I told him what I tell a lot of Windoze people... upgrade and/or reinstall.
I just dail up the Boston access number and got dumpped into Concentric Network. I am wondering if Qwest is bumming bandwidth off of their partners? That is one of the problems I have had with ISP's. Everyone is using someone elses Network. My Earthlink account runs through PSI here in boston or Sprint, depending what number I dial. I have found that Sprint's dial up network is much faster then PSI to my servers.
:) I would be interested if they are using Concentric everywhere.
Start up minicom and check your local Qwest number.
Chris Southern
Yes. You can. CSS. SSI. Never had a need for XLS. Jscript (or JavaScript, not MS' warped version). VIM might have a lot of functionality, but that doesn't mean it is functionality useful for web design. Isn't the Unix philosophy small components to do certain tasks and tie into each other? (DreamWeaver has a source editor, but it can plug HomeSite in - far better - even though Allaire and Macromedia are competitors)
Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot.
"This is unfortunate, but it's a support issue. AOL, AT&T and Qwest have all found that the
more platforms you support, the more you have to spend on technical support."
This isn't about them supporting my OS. This about them being able to tell me about THEIR system. The sick part is that almost every ISP can be made to work with any modern OS if the sales/support folks could simply tell you a few basic pieces of information about their service.
"Does anyone know of a national
ISP that will let Linux boxes to connect via straight PPP? Let me know, I need one!"
IBM, Earthlink, Mindspring.... I know IBM allows you to sign up and get all the info. you need via the web. The other two may do that also and if that fails you can have them sign you up manually. All three are normal PPP links once you get signed up.
I think this would require kernel support. It would involve wine setting up a virtual interface (like ppp0 or eth0) that wraps around the wsock32.dll that aol loads. Definitely possible.
Take it from someone who *knows* Qwest; NOTHING is worth doing business with them. They can't even do PRI's properly, much less an ISP.
I just moved out of state. And out of the range of my original ISP. (They don't service this area.) On top of that, where I moved to has exactly *three* NXX exchanges local. (THANK YOU BELL ATLANTIC, YOU WORTHLESS BASTARDS.) And an old AT&T 4ESS switch formerly owned by Bell of Pennsylvania. Well, I wasn't about to pay $.12/min for 800# access (it costs most ISPs upwards of $.155/min for 800# calls! Not you; THEM!) and I wanted to keep with them.
The solution? I got a local dialup (the only ISP in the *state* that serves my NPA/NXX local) till I move and get my PRIs. I made arrangements with my ISP to prepay for my email for the next year, and they're letting me keep my webpages there too. I got a local dialup account, with the intent of cancelling in about 3 months, and I'm all set.
And if all else fails, remember, some of the national people will work with anything. Afterall, it's just ppp. If you can setup your account on the phone, assume you can connect with Linux. PPP is PPP is PPP. All that you need is your authentication method (plaintext, PAP, CHAP, PAP+CHAP, CID+CHAP, etc. (At home, I had a CID+PAP setup.)) your username, your password, your dns servers, any weird options like gateway and such, and you're good to go!
Good luck.
-RISCy Business | Rabid unix guy, networking guru
your company here.
shelby != ford
...for my ISP, I pay $15 bucks a month, and there are more POPs everyday. They only provide software for Windows, and Mac, but when I called and set up my account, they told me all the info I needed to configure my Linux boxen, And since I rarely call long distance...
Also, you said Linux Users use AOL, probably true, but they only run it off of their Windows Partitions. Or they might run an older version of the AOL cient in WINE. With AT&T WorldNet, (check out www.WURD.com) you are officially supposed to use their software to connect, and to sign up, however, there are instructions on www.wurd.com, that tell you how to connect to their registration server without their software, and how to configure linux to access their systems, (MS-CHAP for handshake if I remember correctly)
Opinionated Law Student Strikes Again!
The usual slashdot inquiry, and see if a whole bunch of geeks with an attitude can get a better answer out of them. Hell, even being bashed on /. is bad publicity enough, but so much more if we only had a little 1-800 number or an e-mail address to complain to...
Remember, it's Internet Exploder on all those AOL CDs we like to use as frisbees, and AOL owns Netscape! So even if MS is a part-owner of Qwest, it doesn't mean they won't ship with Netscape.
AOL made that deal before they bought out Netscape. AOL uses MSIE for a place on the Windows disk. If I remember the rumors correctly, AOL will switch to a Mozilla based browser sometime in the future (AOL 5?). But for the time being AOL doesn't want to give up their place on the Windows desktop.
This is unfortunate, but it's a support issue. AOL, AT&T and Qwest have all found that the more platforms you support, the more you have to spend on technical support. Which means they take a long hard look at the market, and decide they can live without the ~10% of home users who are not using an MS operating system. My mom went through the same thing with a local ISP, and she's got a Mac. _After_ purchasing a year's worth of the service, when she announced to them that their connection software didn't work, and the ISP found out that she was on a Mac, their first suggestion was, "Buy a Windows 98 PC."
What I'd like to see is one of the Linux Support vendors step up and build a contract with some of the major ISPs. That way, if you are having Linux problems, you call AOL, and AOL refers you to their Linux Support Vendor.
In my experience (and I've only had a few ISPs, and one of them was my old college), they only _say_ that you have to use WinXX to access their systems, because that's all they support. I've always been able to figure out what their software was doing and configure ppp to work, but then again I've never had a national ISP.
I am the king... of No Pants! www.penny-arcade.com
God, why is every time ANYTHING that Linux is not included in, people point there fingers at Microsoft? if you had BOTHERED to READ, you would see that Quest is including NETSCAPE! Since when has Microsoft supported Netscape? Get real QuoteMstr, your Microsoft paranioa is not helping anything here.
This is probably a necessary method of doling out htis kind of information . That is , it is useful to hand out a little speech on how to positively promote Linux along with the link/address that allows the feedback . I would further suggest that it be emphasized that the Linux community members spend a good deal more of their time online than more pedestrian users and ( I believe ) are more involved in activism . I do believe that the Linux community is consideraly more activistic and tech conscious than other users . It cannot possibly be good business to disregard us entirely or even to try and make bland promises without substance . I wonder how long NEC will take to figure this out ( their statement recently that Unix is dead replaced their talking about their hardware spoecifications at an unveiling ) .
This kind of thing is not uncommon in several scaled-down forms. For example a local ISP here is offering an ASDL connection. In their FAQ it says, "Will Unix/Linux/OS/2 etc. work with this?" Their answer is, "Perhaps, but we don't support it you are on your own." Upon trying to call their tech. support they assume you are a dumbass. "Would you be able to tell me the IP for your DNS server?" they ask if you are having troubles connecting and say install their software and it should be configured automatically. I tell them I'm using Linux and they tell me "Oh sorry, we can't support that." They virtually hang up...
Many linux users would have a copy of named running as a caching nameserver. This would be configured to use the root nameservers (easy to find out) and named would handle the recursion part of the queries. This has the advantage of being totally portable across ISP's and you can also set up your own zones if you require.
So, in short, Linux users don't need to know the ISP's DNS servers, although they could configure them to be forwarders to reduce some traffic. Windows users, however, since they don't normally have a local nameserver, can't use the root nameservers, as AFAIK, the root server will not answer recursive queries.
--
Exigo spamos et dona ferentes
i suggest you dump Quest. If you have to initialize you account via a win9X program you know they must have their heads up their cans. Thankfully my local isp is a FreeBSD haven and can give me techsupport for operating systems containing U's and X's. I suggest you find a similar local isp who dosen't care to fork out thousands of dollars for NT systems. I used to think that aol didn't let you log into their servers without their software. But my aol toting friend recently logged in with the standard ms dialup utility. So they may be an option. You could also just setup your account and then try continually to log in. or DEMAND that you speak to their server admin.
char *stupidsig = "this is my dumb sig";
Why do they require a customized browser to sign up? I personally never signed up online, but wouldn't signing up for an ISP basicly be:
1> dial their 800 number
2> login as guest
3> goto their website
4> fill out the form
5> hit submit
6> receive an username/pw/local access number
???
_______________________________________________
There is no statute of limitation on stupidity.
I have never figured out why Linux doesnt negoicate the DNS. I guess PPPD doesnt support it. Anyone know?
Becuase having pppd know exactly what to do with
the information is non-trivial. For starters does
it need to go in
As others have pointed out, the bottom line is that *every* network connection comes down to a handful of parameters which easily fit onto an index card.
Not only that it is far easier to get this kind of information out to customers. Or has someone come up with a way to feed a CDROM through a fax machine or read out the details...
A lot of these responses aren't making a clear distinction between non-Win9x "support" and "tolerance." It's reasonable for a company to say that "if you don't run software X.Y.Z we can't offer you help ON YOUR SOFTWARE," it's a far different thing when the company acts like they have *no* responsiblity to answer *any* question if you aren't running that particular program.
As others have pointed out, the bottom line is that *every* network connection comes down to a handful of parameters which easily fit onto an index card. Either the company can provide them or they're blowing smoke and *can't* be trusted. Period.
(That said, some networks, esp. cable modems, use additional authenication methods. But again they should be able to concisely describe it ("kerberos with extensions) instead of waving the magic "proprietary software" wand.)
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
I was pissed about the Netscape thing, but my wife uses 95 for Quicken so I just signed up there. Had some trouble with the PPP side of Linux, but it turned out to be a problem on their end that was cleared up after a day. All in all, I'm using it under Linux without a problem and it saves me about $50 a month over Sprint and Surfree.
This was a fairly small ISP, so it might be that only the larger ISPs make silly requirements like Qwest has.
yeah.. I have an account with a small ISP (very small, b/c the county I live in is microscopic itself), and we get unlimited access for $19.95/mo. I think though, that they sneaked in some kind of $1.00/mo charge for the email address (which I could care less about), but that's no biggie either. It is also, of course, dial-up access, and I had tried to use the account under Linux but couldn't because of my @#$%! WinModem in my laptop. (I'd try on one of the other machines at home, but their owners won't let me put Linux on them.. oh well.. *sigh*)
The thing is, though, I don't think these ISPs know what they're doing, trying to push people into a particular OS. What kind of morons are they that they feel that Windows is the only way their account can be set up? Who're they kidding? (Themselves, of course)
The other thing is, I don't see why they would need to distribute software for the user to be able to set up/access their account.... having an internet connection requires no special software that doesn't already come with the OS or that couldn't be easily obtained. And if it does, then the ISP should carry that software in a variety of OSes for those various people out there. When we signed up for our account, they sent us four disks that had IE on them (four floppies that is.. self-explanatory) and then we got our username/password while talking on the phone to one of their reps. And they have support, so it's nice. Of course, I also realize that sometimes it's kinda buggy (stupid error msgs and the like), but it works. If I were those people who're writing about Qwest, I'd drop them like a hot potatoe and find someone else worth working with. That deal is _not_ too good to be true, for reasons which include the M$ deal.
Insert mind here.
The way AOL interfaces with winsock is the AOL Adaptor it installs. You would have to find a way to get this working first, then run the AOL client.
Could this be accomplished by adding code to WINE to intercept these API calls? And if that worked, could a virtual networking adapter be written, similar to the vmnet* adaptors from VMWARE?
This hinges on getting pppd to grab onto an aready started connection, and that AOL's pp prtocol isn't weird.
:-)
I'm afraid that the ppp protocol would have to be altered somehow to support all of AOL's addons like IM's, keywords, all the AOL only stuff. Interesting idea though.
What's the second idea?
I've had the same problem of Windows-only, proprietary internet clients with AOL (I'd switch but my parents pay the bill). My aspirations of completely abandoning Windows are impaired by there not being an AOL client for Linux.
Wine runs the AOL software just fine for the most part, but as far as I know there's no way to interface the kernel's networking code with AOL's PPP connection (ie. I want to be connected to AOL through WINE and be able to use all the command line net utilities.
I don't know enough about the internals of WINE to discover whether this is feasable. Does anyone know how hard this would be to implement, or how you'd even do it?
I called qwest recently to set up an account. I was going to switch to their long distance (they have pretty good deals there even without ppp). I just wanted basic internet service, national, to use with my BeOS system (no AOL).
I got the same routine as most of you about needing windows 95, etc. So after trying to pin down whether or not windows was required vs whether it was supported, and after being told that I need to use their software, I decided to just get the damn stuff, run in in w95, and see what it did.
Then I asked how long it would take. Between 4-6 weeks.
Oh. Ok, I'll let you know. In the meantime I found a no-frills and no support isp at 7.50/month, pay by quarter (8.50 with web space).
Check-it: They lowered my price at the cost of support, and yet it was exactly what I wanted. I'm paying less for the exact service I want.
Because it was uber-cheap with no support, there are no modified clients or proprietary signons. Wow!
Ger.
-- Kill microsoft to email me.
Be free and multiply.
Give their tech a nice friendly call. You could always say, "I use linux, what's the DNS, etc?" but more than likely, you'll get, "We don't support Line-ucks. *click*".
This is an approach I've found to work. Call up the ISP tech support as before, and ask for head tech, second level tech, anyone that knows what they're doing. I've run into instances where the idiots will say, "Sorry, we don't have a DNS. Everything is dynamically asigned," which is, of course full of dookie. (I've even seen ISP's that have head techs that think/say that! Their server is set up by a 3rd party, and spuratically maintained. Course, that's SD, USA for ya...)
Once you've reached the partially sentinent, yet still mentally dull, tech, make up a story. Tell him/her that you want to compare the connection speed of two different local ISP's to determine which one you would want to stay connected with. Maybe say you have a remote access program that requires the DNS, as well as all other server information. Make something up. It may not be entirely ethical, but it should get your linux boxen up and spiffy...
-------
CAIMLAS
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
KTB.NET (a small SoCAL ISP) has exactly the opposite attitude: anything the customer can get to work is cool with them. They have simple instructions on their site for connecting via Win9*, Win3.1x, Mac, Linux.. and when I asked them "Why not instructions for connecting in DOS, via something like NetTamer?" their response was "tell us where to find it, and we'll try to do so".
Now that's more like it!! (Disclaimer: I don't work for KTB, nor are they my ISP.. but when they get a POP that's local to me, they *will* be...)
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
There are a lot of ISPs who use the copies of Netscape with the built-in PPP dialer that comes pre-configured with their registration phone number, etc.
To my knowledge, AOL requires Windows to work. I don't know of any way what soever to get AOL working on linux.
Other than AOL, to my knowledge most ppp ISPs will work with linux unless they need to do something special. For instance, NetZero( which is free) requires Windows. MSN also requires Windows. Juno again also requires Windows.
But non of the companies that I've mentioned so far use normal Windows DUN (Dial Up Networking), they all use special proprietary stuff, which to some extent makes sense. MSN is from MS, so supprise supprise. AOL uses proprietary extensions to DUN, which in theory are simpler for users than normal DUN. In addition, the fact that they are using DUN at all is hidden from the user because the user has to use a proprietary client program anyway. NetZero uses proprietary stuff for their advertising, and Juno is completely proprietary (which allows them to simplify things dramatically for users).
When we start talking about high speed access, things change. Frequently highspeed providers for services like cable and DSL insist that you use Windows or Mac. They even frequently go so far as to verify at your house that you are using a Windows machine or Mac. Some of them port scan every so often to verify that you don't switch to another OS on them, and almost all of them do something involving MAC address to keep your from switching machines.
Despite all the rules about involving Windows or Mac, most DSL and cable internet access systems would work just fine with Linux or other OSs, since they frequently don't use anything proprietary software wise.
-- Superlame http://catpro.dragonfire.net/joshua/
I signed up for the Qwest deal last week. I got two CDs in the mail with clear instructions. Everything worked as advertised and I've been using Qwest for a few days now. The software on the CD is a straight Netscape Communicator 4.5 (128-bit version) install. The only thing that is specific to Qwest! is the registration application, which appears to be at least partially Java-based. It does the actual sign-up with Qwest, then configures Dial Up Networking and the browser. Once the sign-up process is completed, you can connect to Qwest using either their dialer or Windows Dial-Up Networking. You can use another browser. You can use the "free" Netscape Netcenter account Qwest creates for you, or not use it. You can look at the various settings and duplicate them under Linux, MacOS, etc. If Qwest was in Microsoft's thrall or partially owned by Microsoft or whatever, why would they be giving away Netscape Communicator and setting uses up by default on the Netscape Netcenter portal? It is of course possible that nefarious purposes are at work here, but I think it's more likely that Qwest decided to put their efforts into attracting and supporting the 90+% of home PC users who are already running Windows 95/98. NT, Linux, and even MacOS don't have anything close to Windows' installed base in the home. It's the same reason my local auto parts store has lots of Ford parts but nothing for Fiats -- it's not a Ford conspiracy to keep Fiat owners down, it's just common-sense market economics. The Qwest package is a good deal for me, and their ISP service is at least as good as the others I have used in Portland. I'm getting no busy signals, and fast connections every time. Greg Jorgensen
I read in a Wired article some time ago about quest before they were functional and how they were going to revolutionize telco's etc. Basically it said the phone companies were in price wars with no end in sight, and when they get low enough, the next logical state is unlimited long distance/internet etc. in one package... could this be the start of it? I would love to be able to cut down on long distance... maybe breath some life back into BBS's
Well; Simply speaking I use Erols. Which can be reached at www.erols.com. I use the service 24/7 for $19.95 (I have never been disconnected) I never get a busy signal and I've had them for about 2 years now. The maximum times I've ever had to call them was once to signup.. Ok maybe twice when the east coast had the floyd incident and they went down for about 30 or so minutes. Thats it though. I love the service and if they offered cable service I would go with them. They claim to have been around since 1976 I believe it is. Don't quote me on that check the website. Not only that but my service is never slow. I'm on a 33.6 and I've never connected at anything under 31200. I know alot of people might have had different experiences with them but for me (I'm in the New York Tri-State Area) the service has been a breeze and I plan to stay with them until I switch to cable. Anyway to slide off topic a bit; I don't feel that accessing the internet should be restricted to an operating system; even if its an operating system of the masses. Also before you go switching ISP's I'd recommend looking at their history, their service, what they offer and find a couple of users that use it and find out their opinion. (Worldnet) the provider that I used before Erols, wasn't as good with connects and they offer 19.95 for 100 hours only I believe.
Anyway in closing make sure that you ask "Do you support my operating system?" If they say no, you know exactly what to do. Say "Goodbye".
-Chris
Debian GNU/Linux, Netscape 4.61, 54333
Thank you for giving me a reason to boycott your company, and encourage my peers to do the same.
Ffire your tech guys (or whoever responsible), as anyone who requires me to have specific software (or operatiing systems) to access the global, interoperable internet obviously has no competence in providing any internet service whatsoever.
--------
"I already have all the latest software."
Except, being considered the authority on technology by many people, Qwest would lose a lot of business if a lot of people like me said their service sucked.
I believe it's called word of mouth.
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"I already have all the latest software."
Anyone remember the news earlier that said that Microsoft pays people to post trash like that on discussion forums?
I bet the previous coward just got a pile of money for that lame post.
--------
"I already have all the latest software."
It's usually well worth it to install bind and set your resolver to 127.0.0.1.
Suddenly, you will have no problems.
--------
"I already have all the latest software."
I would further suggest that it be emphasized that the Linux community members spend a good deal more of their time online than more pedestrian users
If this is true then Qwest would be well served to avoid such customers as they are not profitable.
It's a "Let's just give up" attitude like this that lets microsoft own you. Don't let microsoft own you, and they never will. Show support for something else, and the companies will follow, if that's what it takes to get your money.
I can't help but wonder if Microsoft is paying them off... especially since the DoJ case has, more or less, ended. If they win, they will go unpunished, and, if not, what difference does it make whether they make one more robber-baron-ish move?
While there may be some people who use AOL and also happen to use Linux, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Of course, if your cake is AOL, I know most people would prefer not to eat it...
Anywho, AOL doesn't use a standard dial-up account, you need their client software, and there is no Linux version. In fact, the latest version (just released a week ago) won't even run correctly on Win2K.
--
"I personal[ly] think Unix is "superior" because on LSD it tastes like Blue." -- jbarnett
I signed up with AT&T without using any of their 'special software'. If you look hard enough on their site you'll find pages (and newsgroups) dedicated to setting up Unix (& Linux) dialers. I registered through their web site and followed the directions on WURD (Worldnet Users' something something) and was up and running in minutes.
If one were to consider also, that Qwest is the backbone provider of Microsoft's Redmond campus, there may just be a reason in there. (Though then it seems ironic that they ship netscape at all, perhaps, Willie realized you couldn't sign up if it kept crashing??) Either way, for long distance they really are pretty good, though i remember having to dial an 800 number too. Go fig.
Let's face it, 99% of the people using any ISP are going to think a subnet mask is something one of Batman's enemies wears. You can tell them their default gateway setting but unless you can tell them how to implement it, it does them no good. Therefore they have to support individual OSs, and it would please me no end if each ISP had an entry in their support database on how to set the TCP/IP settings in every OS from Windows 3.1 to FreeBSD to AmigaOS.
Where you're correct is that at the very least, the second-tier support personnel at an ISP should know enough about TCP/IP to be able to troubleshoot a connection. Most first-tier support personnel have been trained to read off a troubleshooting chart, but not what to do when there are problems that are off the list. It would be great if all support personnel were trained in these arts, but as much as I would have liked to see it back when I was doing Windows 95 support, it just isn't cost effective. Training is time is money, and most support companies are reluctant to spend any money they don't feel like they have to. Unfortunately they haven't figured out yet that they really have to.
--
Someone you trust is one of us.
I seem to recall a registry hack that made games think that NT was really 9x and play instead of displaying a simliar message. Perhaps it would help?
See this great NT Registry Page
Here is more info from a different site
How can I bypass "This game require Windows 95" ?
The SETWIN95.CMD program has the ability to make a program think it is running under Windows 95. If a game comes up with a message like "This game requires Windows 95" when you try to run the game, then you can try SETWIN95.CMD on To use SETWIN95 do the follow: Put in the NT 4.0 CD, Copy setwin95.cmd and imagecfg.exe from \support\debug\i386 in your system path. You can use SETWIN95 with setwin95 title.exe.
You don't neccessarily have to pay more. In fact, you can pay less. I worked for an ISP that provided simple net access for $10/month. No tech supp for NT or Linux, but you could easily set it up, even with only the information we sent out to new signups (usually along with a cd for Win9x/NT or Mac).
This was a fairly small ISP, so it might be that only the larger ISPs make silly requirements like Qwest has.
The reason Qwest requires Win9x is to simplify support. NT is very different to configure for dial-up than 9x is, and don't even talk about Linux or Mac (or BeOS, or any other O/S). They want to be able to offer good support. What they don't seem to realize is that most Linux users won't call for tech supp, or if they do, it's because they want to know the IP of the DNS servers, or ask some other intelligent question, instead of calling up and saying "I can't connect" and expecting the tech to fix it.
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END OF LINE
Remember, it's Internet Exploder on all those AOL CDs we like to use as frisbees, and AOL owns Netscape! So even if MS is a part-owner of Qwest, it doesn't mean they won't ship with Netscape.
It's mad, but national ISPs are mad anyway.
From a friend who worked at a Telemarking service that was being leased by Qwest to call up you durring dinner, he gave me a list of Long distance rates (Internatonal), anyway, they were the cheapest of any plan, peroid. IMNRSAT = 9.00$ , Antartica (Casey and Scott Base) = 1.20$
Anyway, chances are you need to watch out for Qwest buying up way to much shit and owning your life... Since the ONLY way they can get cheapest rates is by owning or direct leasing of lines..
I used to work for an ISP. We played with setting up a netscape registration thing once, but abanonded it.
The simple reason for this being tied to 95/98 is on the dialup side. They ship you a file that installs a dialer to dial an 800# and then login with a special userid/password that sends you to a registration server.
We abandoned the stuff due to infrastructure overhead. We'd either have to have a different 800# for registration or setup a specific pool of addresses and a filter for that account. And as the current 800# could land you on several terminal servers (not all of them in the same place), it would have been a nightmare to keep straight.
In the end, the ISP set up a sep. 800# that's tied to a specific terminal server that sends you directly to the registration system -- the 800# doesn't cost anything but time (BTI's wierd that way) and there's one one TS to deal with. It is, of course, a windows based end-user system. Of course, the ISP has (always had) a web based signup as well as a faxed in "paper" signup.
I would have loved to ship a CD with a version of netscape for everything that's supported along with the 800# (no login required). The windows based crap can added the profile as necessary or let the user do it. Under other OSen, it's the users responsibility to get the thing dialed up, browser installed, and pointed to the right URL.
(i.e. any URL)
Recently I was travelling in California on business and wanted to set up an account with a no-brainer ISP so that I could check my e-mail (and Slashdot ;->) easily and without long-distance phone charges. I looked at all the majors with national POPs and they all had great deals for $20/mo +/- a few bucks, and places like Sprint and MCI also had options for ISP/Long Distance packages similar to the Qwest deal.
In most of these cases even the $20+/- mo ISP deals required the use of proprietary software (or customized versions of common software) a'la the Qwest deal in order to be able to sign up. After about 2-3 hours of searching for the right deal, I finally decided on an acceptable deal from MindSpring which was *primarily* based on the fact that they had a client which supported NT (I've got NT on my laptop, as well as Linux) and also happened to publish their networking info so you could hand-configure a client as well.
I was pretty annoyed that all the "great" deals required that you use Windows 95/98. Not only is this a reinforcement of the Microsoft monopoly (are they paying ISPs to do this?), but it requires one to use an OS with no security and poor stability regardless of whether or not you are a user of greater technical sophistication and higher requirements.
Essentially, people who know what they are doing are being require to pay a premium for service that will support them, even if their service needs (simple e-mail and connectivity) happen to match up with the lower level users. Why should I have to pay more for the SAME service just because I want to use Linux, or even NT?
o/~ we are pissed, we are pissed, we have to resist... o/~ - ec8or
Its all a big conspiracy.
I'd guess that 90% of the ISPs out there are selling someone else's dialup pools. (Can anyone with inside information back this up?)
I've been using a UTAH based pyramid-scheme ISP for the last year, and they just sell someone else's modem pools. Everyone does it. As long as the continue to have unlimited access for 19.95 a month, I'll stay with them. (I like the fact that they have POPs wherever I travel.)
I recently received promo material for earthlink. What are they like? (They offer website space, something I'm not getting now.)
Thanks
This exact same situation is the case with my isp, uswest. They ship you a 'setup package' which is a cd with netscape and some other progs on it.
When you install netscape, it opens a java program in netscape which collects some information from you and interacts with their server to create your account.
The only reason it requires Windows is because that is the OS they make all their CDs for. Tihs could easily work for other OSs if they planned for demand from users of another operating system. i think the exclusion of other OSs is simply due to their lack of knowledge, and the people at the phone support lines can rarely help.
Anyway, after you create an account that way, you can read all the info it creates from the windows dial up networking link it configures, so you could use the connection with linux or whatever if you had a dual boot system to set up the account with in the first place.
Involving the forced installation of Netscape on all new subscribers' systems.
? Maybe I'm out of date on this, but I thought that browser dominance was also part of MS's agenda.
When I signed up with US West, they sent me a CD with netscape on it and told me that to get my internet account, I had to run their software, which is bound to Netscape for Windows 95. Fortunately my roommate has Windows 95 on her system or I would have been off shopping for a new ISP. Anyway, I went through the process of setting up the account and once it's set up, Linux is quite happy to dial in and talk to it. I get randomly disconnected two or three times a day which is annoying and I plan to drop them for a real ISP as soon as I can get some higher speed lines in.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
A "semi-local" ISP, Texas.net, doesn't really care what OS you use. Yeah, they only do tech support for Windows and I think Mac, but do you really need some annoying registration process that requires certain software? They don't seem to think so. Personally, I've found that it's quite simple to set up dial-up on Windows without knowing a damn thing about their configuration or anything else besides the phone number. :)
You don't have to spend money on tech support, you just say that Linux is not supported, but that we don't require you to use something else. Registration doesn't have to be all complicated. It's ridiculously easy, in fact. At least it is with ISPs like Texas.net, since they don't dick you around. :)
~ Kish
I have used Mindspring before, and if memory serves me correct, you can simply sign up over the web. It worked perfect in every OS I tried, Linux, FreeBSD, Windows 9x/NT, and BeOS. But, since my work has an 800 dialup, that makes my life much easier now.. and it too works with all OS's.. though they would hate it if they knew I wasnt using Windows... ARGGGGGG
Pointing to http://slashdot.org/www.qwest.com
instead of http://www.qwest.com
This signature used to contain a cute kitty virus with ansii art. Please set the slashdot editors on fire. Thank you
http://www.qwest.com/aboutqwest/contact.html
This signature used to contain a cute kitty virus with ansii art. Please set the slashdot editors on fire. Thank you
It's sad to see that Microsoft has probably struck another "exclusive" deal with another company. Qwest had such potential, too. I've personally been through similar ISP searches that would even be sympathetic to Linux. Take for example my current ISP (Let's throw a phony name in here...) ISPx. ISPx will only allow Microsoft operating systems to connect to it. It's a simple PPP dialup that can be connected to any Windows, Mac, Linux, OS/2 box in the world. Once they find out that you're not running Windows, they pull the plug on you and you're not allowed to resign for service with them... forever. Does anyone know of a national ISP that will let Linux boxes to connect via straight PPP? Let me know, I need one!
---
IMHO, of course.
May the SOURCE be with you.
it is a no-brainer that a company like Qwest would outsource not only the ignorant tech support guy you spoke with, but also the whole Qwest ISP division... it isnt actually Qwest... Qwest is not in the long distance business, Qwest is not in the ISP business. Qwest is a fiberoptics company that is in the business of business.
I used to work for a consulting company doing tech and installation support for @Home cable modems in the southeastern Michigan area. @Home uses a propietary version of Netscape (as well as a version of IE) that the installer HAS to install, and tech support won't answer any questions about any other version of Netscape or IE if questions arise. To be quite honest, tho, the only difference in the stadard downloadable version and the @Home version is that Netscape's "N" logo is replaced by the @Home ball, the same with IE's "e" logo. It's a sham, plain and simple.
"Come to hate hypocrisy and evil thought; for it is the thought that gives birth to hypocrisy; but hypocrisy is far from
I have been a customer of Qwest since early this year. I was happy when they lowered by monthy service charge and gave me a internet account. I was a little anoyed when I had to use a windoze box to set up my account. After installing thier custom netscape, and going through the sign up process, I simply copied down the:
- username
- password
- mail server
- pop server
- news server addresses.
After this I simply set up my linux box in the same fashion.I Agree they should have a less windows centric approach to the internet account setup. They should atleast offer an advanced setup option.
BTW they are using concentric's dial up lines. see www.concentric.com for access numbers.
I joined the same Qwest deal, and found out you can point your browser at this address: https://admin.customlink.net/reg/reg.cgi?vpn=qwest internet.net that is correct, a https:// (secure) set-up your info there and enter your software code. Then when it tries to auto-launch your dial-up, cancel that and set-up your own DUN using the phone number the sign-up page gave you. in the login put cl/username@qwestinternet.net all other settings are automatic, IP, DNS etc. This circumvents the annoying installation of their proprietary version of Netscape. It also allows you to decide when you want to dial-up, not allowing their version to dial up when it damn well pleases. I quit Qwest the next day, however. Their upstream speed didn't even seem to be v.34. At 19200 I was getting poor latencies. The packet loss is low, but the latency blew. I usually make 33600 v.34 connections, and most of my upstream v.90 connects are at 26400. Qwest doesn't even manage their own ISPs, they contract to Concentric! This is directly contrary to what a tech told me. I asked, "does the dial-up have a direct connection to Qwest's nationwide OC48 system" the answer was yes, the truth is NO.
I signed up for Qwest internet a while ago (I was using a win 95 machine). The service was OK, except I could never get more than 33K (normally I can l log in at around 53K). But the most annoying thing about them was there use of cache. Even going to a sight like Yahoo! was a nightmare, it would take forever. Trying to go to Slashdot was almost impossible. I managed to get some relief by editing my Netscape preferences, but even now I still have annoying messages popping up on my computer every time I close Netscape but am still online. Now I am with DNAI and they are so much better! I wonder how well these free ISP's really work. Saving a couple of dollars is all well and good, but if that means my web browsing experience is miserable, then what's the point.