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Sega Dreamcasts and LAN Access?
I usually don't post nameless submissions, but this one was interesting enough that I figured it did deserve some attention. We've all heard about Sega's Dreamcast and how it has the capability to connect to the internet via it's 56k modem. So how does one go about connecting systems that are within a few feet of each other? Is it just me or do some of you think that Sega dropped the ball a bit when they didn't provide the Dreamcast with a way to connect to the local LAN?
If a game is supported for the DCN (Dreamcast Network), the software is incorporated within the game GD-Rom. You don't even need to fiddle around with the Dream Passport Disc.
Exactly... If the OS was hardcoded into the box then they couldn't add extra features. As WinCE is bundled as a runtime on each game CD that uses it (and it doesn't have to, it can talk to the metal using Sega's own API) there are no compatibility worries. Future Dreamcast games that are WinCE-programmed will use DirectX 7 and 8 for example... The box is upgradable too - the GD-ROM unit can be replaced, the modem can be replaced. A friend of mine took one apart once and the thing is the closest design to a PC you'll find in the console world. Completely modular. Very upgradable. SEGA 1 - Sony 0.
Win CE is ONE of the possible OS choices on the DC. It can also use Sega's normal APIs, and WinCE isn't actually on the DC anyway. The only place you'll find a version of WinCE on the DC is on the game discs for games that use it. Despite that little sticker on the front. :D
:D
Oh, BTW, for the last time... THE MODEM IS MODULAR!! Sega did indeed fully anticipate cable, is already introducing it in Japan, and (if they're smart) will make sure the cable modem companies are on board. I just think of the 56k modem as a little bonus and/or placeholder until the cable connections come out.
Firewire... wasn't that basically pronounced dead here a little while ago? In any case, there's really very little difference between getting an ethernet adaptor for the DC and the PS2 (the DC one will undoubtedly be available long before the PS2 release), except that with the DC you start out with a modem that's perfectly suitable for surfing and online gaming (not LBP, but not everybody can have a T3 :D). As for other upgrades, does a console really need a printer? If you want your PS2 to be a mini-pc then maybe there's a point, but I doubt the PC peripherals will make a big difference in the console market. Peripherals (other than controllers) simply don't sell or get games unless they're included with the system.
I don't think Sega and the other console manufacturers will ever make their consoles expandable. That would increase the costs of the machine and making them less attractive to most consumers.
Windows CE can't do a...
BEOWULF CLUSTER!!!
>I began a sound "DOOOOOOOOO" in the phone mouthpiece.
You can do this with fax machines as well! };)
ok lets see. im buildling a game station. i put a software modem in it just to keep the cost down and im still selling the damn thing at a loss. soon the GDROM warez kiddies in the suburbs of america will crack the software so its a damn good thing i sold 300,000 in the first week or so. now why the fyck would i go and put alot of extra shit in it that will do nothing except raise cost and might be of use to , oh i dont know,less than 1% of my target market? if i want to add that shit in later i can just build some special additions to the controller pads. they talk at like 2 mhz anyawys. rob your ignorant blabbering has got to stop.
me too. he sounds a miserable fucker with a chip on his shoulder.
Cable modems are becomming increasing popular. Users might not have a full fledged LAN, but basically the equivilant. Online gaming is becomming a huge industry, and quite honestly modems dont cut it.
If you need a login program, you could probably write a program to spoof a login message for the DC from your computer. Somebody will eventually find a way to do this, just like they created a RR login program for Linux.
I don't think they included Lan access because it's not econimically viable. Not everyone purchasing a dreamcast lives in a College Dorm room or geek house, so many people wouldn't even have their dream cast near a computer, so why put in an option(which would raise the price) that only a fraction of your consumer base can use. Although the way I see it, all us hardware dorks have been given a challenge: develope a piece of hardware that we can stick in our computer or back of a dreamcast(or playstation 2 or dolphin) that allows the user to use a lan or internet connection.
Sega is releasing a Link Cable for this very thing... so there you have it... multiple console connectivity... so no ball was dropped.. just uninformed people...
Having worked a stint as an isp support phone-talker in a couple of shops, I ran into more than a few cow-orkers that believed that all modems with a rockwell chipset were software-based winmodems. Not so. Rockwell makes a number of modem chips, and not all of them are software modems. At one point I even knew how to tell the difference by reading the results from sending the modem the ATI3 command, but I have managed to supress most of the horrible memories from those days.
Like always, all the coolest addons are released in Japan first, but I'm pretty sure we'll see them here by next year.
No, they weren't a "bomb." They actually worked very well. I played way to many null-modem games with Quake, and tranfered tons of stuff with laplink. They actually do work well. Now, the speed is the limitation. You might get 230kbps with the right UARTs on each end. I paid more for my 16650 UART in my computer than I did for my entire 100 Mbps network card. There's something odd about that.
Or I could just be a speed freak. I miss my 300 baud modems. =-)
I miss how fast my 300 baud modem would connect. The 30 seconds of burping with my 56K is annoying. Often, with a UUCP connection I setup for a client, 1200 bps modems are faster than using a 56K one (there's analog on one end and a PM3 on the other). They pay for their long-distance billed to the nearest second, and the 1200 bps modem can connect, check for new files, and then hang-up before the 56K modem will even connect. Of course, if they were sending large files, then the 56K modem would be best...
Sega and 3com are working together to impletemt a 10/100 card for the dreamcast. You would just have to take off the modem and place this module in it's place
A company called Telecom Analysis Systems (TAS) makes line simulators. Not sure of the price, but they are at www.taskit.com
I just thought I'd clear up some misconceptions about the Dreamcast. First off, there is a website that has technical information on the DC Dreamcast Technical Pages 1) The modem on the Dreamcast is modular. Plans for expansion include a Zip drive and ethernet card(for cable modems). The port itself is rated at 50 MB/s(16-bits x 25 MHz) The serial port on the back is rated at 2 Mbits/s which is the same as the 4 controller ports on the front. Also, the Zip drive has a USB port. 2)OS. Developers for the Dreamcast have 2 choices for OS: the Sega OS and the WinCE Dragon OS. The footprint of the WinCE , with every module(including communiocations) is 1.2MB. The WinCE allows for easy(ier) PC ports. The Sega OS has a smaller footprint and allows for a closer to the metal programming. The company that has developed Sega's Modem and is working with Sega currently in Japan developing the high speed ethernet expansion(10 base T). TriSignal A game called Virtual On 2 is coming out in Japan that is said to take advantage of the mode for online play, direct dial, and lan play. That's all for now, if you have questions, just ask. -Dean
I think there isn't any point in making the Dreamcast ethernet enabled at this point. They are looking to sell the machine to the consumer and not many consumers have access to cable. So there is no point in adding a feature which the vast majority of people won't be using.
Your definition of LAN seems flawed.
Yes, many workplaces have a LAN. And an increasing number of homes do as well.
As soon as you have two computers hooked to the same ethernet segment (or hell, connected by anything) you have a LAN.
It has been a very misused term in the past few years.
Why did they drop the ball? Because... many many people nowadays have xDSL or Cable network connections, and the vast majority of these use Ethernet. Ethernet is CHEAP to build. It's EASY to use, and not some high-tech magic.
Why should I, with my cable modem (and xDSL connection), and a wireless connection, have to use my PHONE line (that I cancelled, because my cellular phone is all I need now) to use my geek-toy, the Dreamcast?
Bingo ;)
'Price points'?!? What the hell is that? Gosh you merkins so easily succumb to marketing logic.
Australians don't have a problem with the concept of paying $179 for N64/PSX - we can handle 'funny' numbers. Maybe it's our superior education system.
(Warning, this diverts from the original thread quite a bit.) GE -> General Instrument As for the phone line, it doesn't work right with my ISDN modem's analog connection either (it can't ever dial). But TCI (now having been purchased by Insight around here), told me that in the configuration they've got now, the phone line is not necessary. It just can't bill the pay-per-view stuff until you return the box. Big deal. -Derek
Cable modems or DSL could be on the way. I'd like to see a third party do a 10BaseT or even 10/100 card for it if Sega doesn't. Can't be that difficult really and it would be great for those of us with DSL or the like that have hubs for multiple systems.
I am a supervisor of a relatively large LAN - We have scheduled "gaming times" in which game playing is encouraged. I am not a big fan of consoles mostly because I hate playing on a 4 way split on my small 26" TV. I have a LAN in my home and would be much more likely to purchase a system which would allow my friends and I to hook up our machines and play head to head on our own TVs. Even my mother has a LAN; what do you mean LANs are only for the workplace?
Sony's Playstation 2 will have the capabilities of adding a network card. Although many complained because Sony decided not to include a modem, I thought it was a good move to set their system up to allow for faster connections via cable modems dsl, etc.
The high capacity VMU and ZIP drive have already been announced (by third party manufacturers); the ethernet (10BaseT) adapter hasn't yet -- but it will be along. Soon. Next year should be great for multiplayer games on the DC.
The modem on the DC is a modular device, plugging into the "G2" bus -- a 16bit, 25Mhz secondary bus that's also used for sound data. It's got enough bandwidth. The ethernet adapter will replace the existing modem unit (it just snaps on/off).
Since I'm certain about these things, I have to post anonymously... please moderate up if deemed useful....
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If you're on IRC, check out #saturnlist on EFnet. There's some import Dreamcast owners on there that could answer questions like this. That being said, I don't think there is any networked game so far.
Also, be glad Sega isn't in the same mindset they used to be with modems. The Genesis had to connect with a game "service" to let people play head-to-head. The Saturn allowed you to connect directly with the other player's Saturn through the phone line.
The operating system is loaded from the CD, so it is theoretically possible to port Linux to it. The question is how many NDA's you would have to break and how many CD's you would have to write during the time. I don't know if they support CD-RW, but I don't believe that they would do that willingly, they would probably want to restrict illegal copying of their games.
"We mustn't be caught by surprise by our own advancing technology" -- Aldous Huxley
To big businesses, MP3 means piracy. They don't think about the possibility of selling legit MP3s, they just see he piracy that's going on on the Net.
Sega would alienate their retailers by being seen to support MP3.
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As far as I know, the Sega Rally developers actually dumped CE, although they are contractually obligated to put "Powered by WindowsCE" on the splash screen.
"Be nice, veer left, and never stop thinking" Iain Banks - Walking On Glass
When designing consumer electronics such as this the goal has to be to target the majority of consumers at the minimum cost with features they'd find useful. This is a moving target: a few years ago multiplayer games meant that there were 4 joystick ports in a Nintendo 64; Now this means a modem port and possibly an optional ethernet connectivity; In a few years it will probably be at least 10 base T, more likely 100 base T.
The vast majority of consumers only need a modem and all consumers can 'make do' with a modem. If they'd chosen to only have ethernet then the vast majority of consumers would've been unable to make use of the networked multiplayer aspect of the system. If they'd have bundled both then the price would've increased somewhat and they'd sell less units which in turn would effect the availability of games.
I would sincerely hope that they come out with a 10 base T module and that their API was designed to be fabric agnostic. That is its just as happy to speak with another DreamCast over ethernet as it is over an analog modem connection.
Actually there is an option on the dream cast to ignore whether there is a dial tone or not. You just go into the settings area on the inet disk and you check "Blind Dialing"
Vermifax
Vermifax
Logout
You can now easily find USB network cards for ~$50-$80. The question is will there be "drivers" for them for the PSX2?
PCMCIA network cards are still a little more expensive... but anyone w/ a laptop already probably already has a pcmcia network card that they can plop into the PSX2 when it becomes availible. Same q re: "drivers"...
I can see advantages and disadvantages for both methods... The thing is... neither product can network yet... so gotta wait a while longer...
--
Time is on my side
One needs to remeber.. The "T1" ports on the back of Cisco routers are also "serial" ports... Of course they also need a CSU/DSU... but still....
--
Time is on my side
Probably not be too difficult. OpenBSD has already ported to the Sega Dreamcast.
I tihnk you understate how far along NetBSD is. For instance, on the Mac/m68k, Mac/ppc, and Intel ports, NetBSD is pretty freaking cool and does the job quite well. I think FreeBSD is much farther along on the x86, but then again, that is why I run FreeBSD on my x86 and NetBSD on my Macs.
:)
Another issues is the fact that NetBSD presents a clean and consistant architecture and interface between platforms whereas Slackware and Red Hat don't even look the same on an i386.
Anyway, last I heard, the status was "booting" but then again, that is farther along that most other OSes are for the
Sega Rally?
Dunno, we certainly didn't use it for Red Dog. Real games developers go straight for the metal...;)
...at least when it comes to rendering anyway...
Free clue-pon: 56K has not been a "standard" for a couple years now. The V.90 standard is fairly new, and not all RAS vendors even implement it the same way. Quite honestly, 56K over analog phone lines is a bad hack at best. It's best to put your money into a technology that isn't straining a medium that wasn't even designed for it like xDSL or some sort of wireless connection.
Most games may not be limited by bandwidth, but latency is a huge issue for them! You seem to be implying that I'll get the same game play experience playing Q3 over a 28.8 modem as I do on my school's 100baseT LAN, which is not true.
Modems introduce all kinds of horrible latency (especially with compression and all that crap turned on) and just plain suck for gaming.
Search first, ask questions later.
Therefore, I don't see how this eliminates a LAN-based solution. I actually expect the cable modem and DSL modules to be ethernet interfaces. The modems are only reachable via ethernet, anyway -- for example, my cable modem sits on the network. It doesn't connect directly with anything. Surely the Dreamcast cable/DSL access packages will replace the 56k modem with an ethernet interface.
You didn't expect the cable/DSL modems to actually plug directly into the Dreamcast, did you? Have you seen the power and thermal requirements of those devices?
Kris
Kriston J. Rehberg
http://kriston.net/
Kriston
http://www.raite.com.tw/eproduct/e715.htm
This is a player that plays nearly every format imaginable. DVD 1.0, VideoCD 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0, Super-VideoCD (MPEG 2 on a normal CD), CDDA, and MP3. The format of the discs is ISO9660. Of course, discs can be recorded with Joliet or Rock Ridge extentions, but you can't see the long filenames. Filenames can be in either Big5 (Chinese) or English. The structure consists of one level deep directories with any number of MP3 files inside each directory.
~GoRK
As of late Sept, Videogames.com was reporting that no game *released* was based off CE. I had to assume this to be US because I do not follow Japan closely. I did not know Rally2 was out yet. In either event, I wasn't speculating as I believe Gamespot also reported a similar article. (btw, in replying to this, I wanted to show the Gamespot URL, but their search servers appear to be uncooperative.)
Personally, I agree that if (1) Sega makes a module that at least adds either USB or PCMCIA or Ethernet and (2) Guarantees that CE becomes the platform for the majority of games. This will succeed since gamemakers and Sega would not have to worry about drivers...CE would handle that. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately), I will not give Sega a chance after being burned with the Genesis, SegaCD, 32X and Saturn...
Jesse
I find it humorous to read the USENET concerning the religious wars between the Dreamcast and the upcoming PSX2. Seems that, along with being a prime supporter of WindowsCE (which, btw, has yet to be used for a DC game) they took the Microsoft approach to things and made their product upgradeable...because it isn't quite good enough from the start! Some of these DC owners bemoan the PSX2 specs saying that Sony dropped the ball in not including a modem with the PSX2...all Sony could figure out was putting PCMCIA slots and USB ports. Man, that thing will never be expandable.
Yes, somewhat faster then a modem but still a ton slower then a 10baseT network
Obviously, but I think the point here is that we're talking about the Dreamcast. Since game designers will write with the 56k modem in mind, a null modem connection would be very adequate.- NeuralAbyss
~^~~~^~~~^~~~^~~~^~~~~^^^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Real programmers don't comment their code.
the modem pops off the back... just rig a network card to fit in!! haha, yea right!!! I guess dialup is the only way... and that crappy cd they have for using the internet... I wonder how they will do multi-player games.
maybe i'm confusing dreamcast with playstation2, but i seem to remember one or the other having firewire (aka iLink) on board.
while it isn't exactly 10/100bT for the dorm room LAN, it should be easy enough to connect two machines via firewire to make a spanking fast lan.
the trouble, of course, is having the two machines in physical proximity, as well as the two TVs...
- Entertaining Bits from the Ancient Kernel Tree
You'd still need to bring a telly with your dreamcast, though, and after having had my PSX and :)
computer wired to my 30" TV and surround sound, the thought of going down to an 18" portable with poxy speakers to take to a LAN party doesn't really thrill me
(When was the last time you tried moving a large 30" tv?)
IMHO, you're better off with PC's and hi-definition 17" monitor at a LAN party. Especially for Homeworld.
I have a dreamcast, you can use any service provider you want (sega doesn't have one) It comes with software to install att worldnet but you don't have to and they walk you through setting up via any provider. Sega OWNS HEAT and this is where we may end up seeing game matching. But like M$ zone the play is primarily free.
In the consumer electronics business (at least in the U.S.), there are some well known "sweet spots" in the price spectrum. They're mostly multiples of $100. Hit these price points, and you'll encourage impulse buys by various kinds of consumers in various circumstances. The most well known price points are $100, $300, $500, and $700. (Think what price a VCR, or a fairly big screen TV, or a camcorder had to hit before you considered buying one.)
$700 PCs are a huge hit. WebTV seems stuck at $500, and it's anything but taking the market by storm. 3DO proved conclusively that the $500 price point is too high for game consoles.
Nintendo and Sony have found a good price point at $200 for game consoles. Sega had to hit that point.
Households with home LANS or cable modems, almost by definition, live higher on the price curve. It makes sense for Sega to offer an upgrade kit, or a higher priced (because they can get away with it) version, for that market segment. But Sega shouldn't blow the price point for the majority of their customer base.
(I worked on four different consumer telecommunications services from 1992 to 1998. I saw lots of products miss the price points, even though we knew better.)-:
Stupid job ads, weird spam, occasional insight at
I reckon that with Apple now including the option the AirPort with their computers, that we will start seeing more people wanting wirless connectivity with their PCs. So eventually I would not be surprised if wireless console networks become normal. If you need it expand over the phone line then all you need is base station.
Thats's my 5 euro cents worth
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
I think I heard about a way to hook the thing up to that new neo-geo pocket? Or maybe I was confused. The neo-geo cables look a lot like USB to me. Not that I own any of these systems, I'm poor.
_Joshewah_
Sorry to burst your imaginery world, but it uses Windows CE. Only thing it has on Windows 9x/NT, is that it has a smaller footprint (Ye gads! A MS OS with small footprint?! IMPOSSIBLE!!)
uh, not true with ISDN or ADSL, these are one to one connections, but true with cable, which is a one to many..
Someone hack out the 'G2' bus on that thing, :) Of course, :)
:)
and I'll design a Lan interface
finding someone interested in manufacturering
them would be another story alltogether
Looking at the Trisignal sight, it appears they
have something called a T-Soft Modem, which might
be (with some changes?) what the DC uses. the T-Soft Modem uses AT command set, as well as their own proprietary command set and comes w/ an API for porting stuff.. sounds like something the DC would use eh?
So could maybe make a small plugin to replace the
modem that would have a Lan interface & uP that would interpret the AT commands and pretend to connect to an ISP so the DC would talk to the net.. and hence its game place..
I was under the impression that null modem cables run up to the maximum speed between the two computers, i.e. 115kbps.
:smile:...)
Thats true, but compare it to 10mbps ethernet (yeah, I know, 2mbps in practice), or 100mbps, or gigabit over fiber, and the speed difference is indeed noticable!..... oh yeah, a few hundred of these puppies in a beowulf cluster running across gigabit fiber... oh.. (Okay, so I really had something to contribute, but lost my train of thought at the end...
The modem is removable. I hope that sega is working on a 10/100 ethernet adapter for the dreamcast. I think it was horribly short sighted to not have this as an availabe add on at release. I have been using a cable modem for over two years, and have no plans to go back to a modem.
Indeed. Best of luck getting the Dreamcast modem to ignore dialtone, though, even if it is willing to work across an unpowered line (which is troublesome, in my experience...).
Kid-proof tablet..
Hmm. Null modem cables were the bomb, but they're a bit slow these days
I was under the impression that null modem cables run up to the maximum speed between the two computers, i.e. 115kbps.
Lowmag.net
Why would a DC need a network card? just dialup and play.. if you can afford DSL, and a DC you can probably afford the ~20 bucks a month for a phone line.. as most games aren't limited by bandwidth, and you probably don't need leach access on a DC..
for surfing, it may work pretty good to have an ethernet, but how well can it download at those rates and can the lil os handle it?
Hmm. Null modem cables were the bomb...
;-)
No, they weren't a "bomb." They actually worked very well.
He said "the Bomb", not that null cables were "a" bomb, understandable mistake if english is not your primary language (or even if it is
I have a dreamcast and surfing on the web is painfully slow and difficult, even at 40+ Kbs/sec. Having it connected to DSL/cable/T1 may speed it up, but I think alot of the problem lies in the software it shipped with (at least for web browsing)
just my 2c
It's like being redundant over and over again!
See you, space cowboy...
> I really, really, really hope Sega wasn't stupid enough to hard wire the modem on the motherboard.
FYI, The modem on the Dreamcast is a removable pack on the side of the main unit.
Here in the UK they're releasing the DreamCast with a 33.6 modem initially, with an upgrade planned in the near future.
The phone line simulator is only needed if the modems don't have a way to ignore the missing dialtone, and if the modems do not work on a bare wire.
From what I have read CE is not even on the machine itself, the CE runtimes come on the same disc as the game.
AS far as I know, it's not really CE based. What you can do however is have CE embedded on the games CE, which will be loaded when the games starts. You can choose to stick wuith the Dreamcast's base OS if you want.
Of course it's a damned good idea that, as the dreamcast CE has some DirectX built in, so porting PC games is easier.
emulation.
Hardware Abstraction Layer.
Dreamcast.
BSD port.
BEOS.
PPC port.
Sheepshearer.
VMWare.
WINE.
get my drift?
This isn't totally applicable to the article, but just for all those who say the Dreamcast is doomed, I'll provide a link to this BBC article, which claims that Dreamcast sales in England were at £9m in the first few minutes.
The article also says they had £8.5m in preorders.
I'm sure we'll be able to find first day sales statistics soon enough.
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If a tree falls on an anonymous coward yelling 'first post' in the forest, does anybody hear?
But there will be online gaming by next year. You can already get on the net with it, and from what I've heard, you can download a Sonic add on pack thing already. Sure, at the moment there isn't any network, but that isn't to say there won't be one.
... for the near future.
One of the first is the ability to connect via DSL or Cable Modem.
First and foremost, the 10Mb Network Pluggable module is in the works. This make better sense since I don't know of anyone with internal cable modems or DSL routers.
ChozSun [e-mail]
ChozSun
ChozSun.com
I find it hard to beleive that Sega wouldn't provide some sort of support for this type of setup because it's so common and technically pretty trivial.
I suspect the real problem won't be the communications, but that the Dreamcast games will not come with Server software - that will be sold separately to ISPs (at a vastly inflated price) or bundled with a contract agreement that entitles the ISP to support Dreamcast connections. Of course, this could well be NT or UNIX server software, as those machines are more likely to be efficent running as a server than a Dreamcast is (I can't see many ISPs setting up racks of Dreamcasts to run their game servers, for some reason)
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-=DaveHowe=-
FYI I haven't yet played a game on that thing. They handed me the modem and told me to take it apart. (that's what i get for being former hardware tech)I merely stated what i had found. I apologize for not researching it completely.
No unauthorized use. Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again.
I work tech support for an ISP, and when the dreamcast first came out we "convinced" our pres. to buy us one (for testing purposes, of course ;> ). Being the techs we are, we promptly opened the modem up to see what it was. Much to our chagrin, the main chip as made by a Rockwell subsidiary. Thus making the modem roughly equivalent to an HCF type modem. For those not familiar, the HCF is basically a WINmodem. (blech!) Thus as any ISP tech knows, it's often a pain in the ass making it work with some ISP hardware. NOw in a PC, you can adjust settings and add init strings to make the hardware play nice. the dreamcast doesn't have this capability, so if the modem won't connect good to yer ISP, there aint a damn thing you can do about it except shell out that extra dough to use their own provider.
I would agree that neglecting the networking side, and using cheap modem products, has definitely cost the dreamcast business.
Now the Playstation 2.... that's a different story.. *DROOL!*
No unauthorized use. Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again.
Right - there's an API for developing games using WinCE - I'm sure it's pretty much there to make ports of PC games a lot less work, I'll be interested to see if Half-Life will work with PC deathmatches - could be fun.
Working retail has its perks. Sega is _considering_ putting out an ethernet card (10BaseT) No word on Cat5/Coax, and if I recall a street date est of mid 2000, but still...
I really don't like the idea of copy-protection by country coding. What happens if I move? Will I have to buy new software for all my equpment? Totally lame.
>The only other problem is finding enough TV's to
....
>support the networked DCs.
or just have several DCs and one TV for a
(wait for it)
...BeoCast!
How about college campuses and boarding schools? I know plenty of people who use Playstations around here because it's easier to have a $1000 computer to do work and web browsing on and a $300 console + TV setup than to keep a computer capable of playing cutting-edge games.
One of these could easily be used along with a bank of 16 modems on a Linux box to allow up to 16 dreamquests to talk to each other. You could even uplink them all together over a single high-speed uplink (cable modem, etc.) to the public net. It's not cheap (probably about $200-$300 per port) but it will work. I think I smell a business opportunity for someone!
Anyone know when we're going to see an ethernet adapter for the dreamquest? ;-)
-p.
Hmm. Null modem cables were the bomb, but they're a bit slow these days. Myself, everything in my room is done either with a small hub and short patch cables, or with crossover cables for small stuff. Anything slower than 10MBit just doesn't cut it realistically these days.
Or I could just be a speed freak. I miss my 300 baud modems. =-)
Incase any of yall didn't notice, the modem is removable for future networking solutions. In the little brosure that came with the dreamcast, it had mentions of cable modems/dsl/etc. i certainly wouldn't mind taking on one of my friends head to head on blitz (on different tv's mind you), or quite possibly Quake3. To tell you guys the truth, even before i plugged in my dreamcast the first day i got it, i took out the modem and thought, "Wow, this is kinda cool, when is the lan connection comming out?" This machine was designed to be fully upgradable (now we just need gigabyte disk writers).
-Tim
...as are many of the houses in my neighborhood. It was wired throughout with Cap5 as part of its construction (the phone lines in the house are actually some of the Cap5 wires, so it's very thorough). It's becoming more common in the west (I'm in Utah, and I bet you'd see it even more in California).
The cable companies that supply the cable internet connection may have a problem with people connecting their Non Windows 98 boxes to the cable modem. They seem to have a fit if you say you're going to connect your Linux box up to the cable modem - (well you can do it but "NO SUPPORT FOR YOU!!!!"). Since Dreamcast doesn't run on windows (at least, God I hope it doesn't) are they going to tell the teenage boys who just want to play their games that they can't do it even though Sega says they can? Oh yeah and if you have to have a login program to log onto the cable network (RR used to do this in my area, but quit, but I know they still do it in other areas) that won't work anyways. Sega's going to have to do some major dealing to get it to work with all the cable providers.
Why are they releasing the Dreamcast in the UK with a 33.6 modem "initially"?? 56k has been a standard for the past couple years now, and they're not all that expensive. That just doesn't quite make sense to me.
You would want to link 2 together to display on different tv's!!
I for one dont want 4 people dividing up a 19-25 inch TV during a race game.... split it to more TV's and display space is no longer a problem.....
www.mp3.com/Undocumented
I've read up on this a lot (seeing how I now longer own a single modem - can't stand those things) The Dreamcast will have ethernet around the same time as the Quake3Arena launch for the Dreamcast. If anyone has read the first issue of DCM (DreamCast Magazine) you'd know what I'm talking about. I just can't wait to take my Dreamcast to the next big q3 LAN party and ask, "May I borrow your TV?" :-)
Beguile
I remember opening up a Pippin (the failed mac game console), and making the cable from the motherboard to the cd player just a tad bit longer, enough to support an extra hard disk...
But then again, that was scsi...
-John
I've never used a Dreamcast for more than five minutes in a local Wal-Mart, so I may be wrong, but...
About 3 months ago Wired had a 2 page spread on the dreamcast, exposing all the guts of the system. The part that really caught my eye was the 'modular modem'. According to Wired, this thing was designed to be easily upgradeable to a proprietary cable modem, or something along those lines. Now, this is Sega we're talking about, so I really don't expect them to support it (remember that port in the bottom of old Nintendo's?), but it sounds feasible that a NIC of some kind could be designed for use in that port.
There is a project under way which is porting Openbsd to the hitachi's sh4 processor, which is used by the dreamcast. The Effort is concentrated here and on the mailing list(see above link). There is also a nice technical info page for those interested in Dreamcast Specs here.
--Isaac
"Anyone who has been around more than two years know that modem tech changes practically every six months"
Hmm, how long has it been since standard modem technology changed? What's it been, a year and a half or two years since 56k came out. Regular modem technology has pretty much been the same for quite some time, with no innovations in sight. So if all they want to support is POTS then well, as far as things look now, 56k is a pretty safe choice. Sure, broadband solutions will eventually take over completely, but the claim that momdem technology changes every six months is just no longer true. Maybe there will be some breakthrough in a while, but I have heard of nothing new in the works. 56k is already above (I think) what was supposed to be the theoretical limit that could be squeezed through the somewhat poor quality lines that are our telephone service.
Yeah you're right... on one modem set it to ignore dialtone (ATX1) and "dial" the other modem with ATD (no number required). And on the other modem type ATA for answer and they should connect. Fun :)
Get a linux box with enough serial ports, recompile the kernel with ip forwarding, and write up your chat file. chances are that you'll need to use bind to run an internal nameserver to give the dreamcasts a way to get ip numbers [cos they wont have host files].
This is assuming of course that you can connect dreamcasts to serial ports.
First of all, for those interested, the company that makes the modems is Trisignal, located in montreal, and their web site is at:
http://www.trisignal.com
About a future LAN interface, it can't be otherwise. The sega network won't be operational in North America before next summer, at which time the modem will already have obseleted itself! The president of Trisignal (the company that makes the modem) himself said: "Now if only we could plug ADSL in that beast" or something like that.
Anyway, I hope they don't start making custom adsl modems (or cable), but I don't think they would make that mistake. Surely they will simply make a LAN interface.
I don't know everything their is to know about the Dreamcast. But I am sure it has way's to add things to it (Such as N64's Rumble pack, and memory cards). These "expansion slots" should be able to transfer data somehow. At Least, If SEGA were smart! Then in a few months time SEGa would release the new LAN card for this expansion slot thus makeing more money (That's what it's all about isn't it?). But then again, with SEGS just announcing that their dreamcast network will take a little while longer than expected to set up, who knows how long it would take for a LAN card to hit the market.
:(
Just think of going to a LAN party and all you need to bring is a dreamcast instead of all your computer gear.. This has definate possibilities. Granted, LAN parties would change, it would no longer be comparing and tradeing your 10 gig mp3 collection
"I couldn't give him (Bill Gates) advice in business and he couldn't give me advice in technology." Linus Torvalds
The libraries they give developers may be biased towards this kind of thing which could break any amount of clever tinkering, but then I'll suppose we'll reverse engineer the whole kaboodle.
What surprises me is that there not a 3rd party web browser / modem kit for PSX's there not incredibly powerful, but it could work.
"you'll go farther in your courier and in life"
If you learn to use correct words to convey your ideas, you'll go quite far yourself.
I'm not looking at performance issues in terms of the network, you're quite correct in your assessment of infrastructure stability. I'm considering how my end-user, paycheck signing supervisors and managerial staff will react to my decision to permit Sega machines to be jacked into their network.
If I am obviously an admin, then you are obviously a gamer. Different priorities. I run my LAN to enable workflow. You want to play whenever, and wherever possible.
You're also conveniently forgetting the simple fact that Sega will have a difficult time making money off of you if you may simply plug their machines into your LAN. What they want is a pay-per-play setup, and LAN capablities just won't permit that. It's business.
-Jake
Poor quoting skills, coward-boy.
I said "look where most LANs exist.
Get it right next time.
-Jake
And that was supposed to sound charming?
-Jake
Then I'm unsure of the business angle, other than HEAT being used by Sega.
I'm still unconvinced that there are enough homes in the country with LANs, or enough LANs that permit users to connect gamedecks to the workplace network to persuade Sega of the marketability of such an option.
-Jake
...it's just an unrealistic expectation.
Just think about where most LANs exist, in the workplace. How many workplaces do you think would allow Sega machines to be plugged into the LAN at the office? I'm a LAN admin myself, and I'd rather shoot any one of my users in the head rather than allow them to play games on my LAN.
I can't even fathom why you'd think they dropped the ball. How specialized do you want them to market something designed for mass consumption? This is a comsumer product, not an Uber-geek accessory. They want gamers online, and they'll more than likely want them to do it via their connection service. That will allow them to make more money. How will allowing a marginal segment of their consumer population (personal LANs, or lax work environments) to circumvent their connection method (either their own dial-up or some sort of service you access to meet up with other gamers...pay per play) help them make more money?
Jake
Yes, the Neo-Geo pocket is supposed to be able to communicate with the DC; I haven't seen it done, but I know it can.
There has been much critisism of the country coding on DVDs and Sony Playstations, especially here in the UK where prices seem to be some what higher than the States or mainland Europe.
The modem in the Dreamcast makes me wonder about how much freedom is given for choosing which server is dialled when a network game is joined, and as to whether this information is programmed into the games console or the games.
I have this mental picture of UK Dreamcast players being horrified upon seeing their phone bills, when they've used imported games rather than the far more expensive UK release ones.
I wonder if I am being too cynical about this, but with the prices in this country, grey imports of games, and the chipping of hardware is all too common a practice on playstations (mine is unchipped at the moment BTW) and DVD players making me think this is a way of forcing people to buy the official releases for a particular country.
You can say "in a year or two everyone will have cable/DSL/whatever", but in a couple of years they will be releasing a new unit anyway.
It's like buying a multiprocessor machine now (that you can't take advantage of) because next year you will be able to use it. Only, if you waited until next year to buy it you could get faster processors for the same price.
It was a business decision, and it seems like a logical one to me.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
A while ago I heard of a gadget called a telco simulator. Not sure where to find one, but should provide cheap and direct access. Maybe a modification on the box they use to teach kids how to dial 911 with? (Dial 911 on one phone, rings on other).
Visit
Cryptic AT sequence was probably ATX1 on both machines to turn off the 'dialtone smarts' (eg, so the modem wouldn't check for dialtones before dialing). Then you could type ATDT on one machine and ATA on the other. Any idea if you can issue an ATX1 to the DreamCast modem? Do they have any type of terminal software yet? If not, when will they? It'd probably be trivial to send an ATX1 then tell it to store the current configuration at AT&F1 (factory default) so that it would alway be dumb, then it'd be able to connect to your local PPP box.
What's the point in having an ethernet adapter if there is no online gaming? If find it humorous and a bit deceptive that Sega's commercials are pushing the Dreamcast's multiplay capabilities when that feature is still vaporware. Sega went so far as to remove the net-ability of the American versions of their games.
This is where Sega is going to take a big hit. You can bet the PSX2 and Dolphin will ship with net-multiplay all set to go. By the time Sega gets their act together it will be close to the PSX2's North American release and by then it might be too late.
this is only peripherally related to the topic, but you'll notice the modem in the dc is modular and sega is working on an ethernet adapter that's coming out sometime next year.
Here's a story on coremagazine that I found that quotes Sega as saying "Sega is committed to offering cable modem access in the near future": http://www.coremagazine.com/news/881.php3
... maybe you techs should stop playing games on that DC the boss bough you and do your job.
Perhaps you'd notice that the Dreamcast gives you a field you can use for additional init strings if needed when you set up your ISP account. And that this field is saved along with all the other account info.
Might I suggest you read the manual, too.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
The DC modem is a module; the opportunity exists to attach other devices.
Sega haven't exactly made this fact a secret. Why not check out a DC-related web site (try www.planetdreamcast.com) before theorising about what a DC actually is?
--
I don't have a modem, but from the picture of the Dreamcast "builtin" modem at http://www.sega.com/console/index.shtml is seems clear to me that it probably connects to a high speed serial port. It would be quite easy to develop something that interfaced to ethernet instead of a phone jack.
It wouldn't surprise me if there was something in the works at sega to put Dreamcasts on the LAN, but it's probably of secondary importance to them.
I don't have my DC in front of me so I'll have to check it when I get home, but I could have sworn I saw a "serial link" port on the back of mine. If it DOES in fact have a serial port, why not use simple null modem connection to link 2 DC's together?
Yes this doesn't help for more than 2 but it's a start.
And I could not agree more about the DC's lack of LAN style connectivity, it would be GREAT to be able to replace the modem module with a 10mbps Ethernet module. The only other problem is finding enough TV's to support the networked DCs.
Getting a LAN party for PCs together is rather easy, but I don't think too many people will be packing up their DC AND 32" TV to go play Sonic Deathmatch.
Still, I'd love to see it as an option.
The whole reason the DC came with a regular phone modem is because it has the biggest established user base. Lowest Common Denominator. But, as some people have posted in threads above mine, Sega is going to release an ethernet adapter plug-in type thing, so it all works out in the end. As a cable modem user, I am a little bit mad I can't use it right out of the box, but I understand where Sega is coming from. On another note though, it the begining of the "article" it asks how to connect two systems together. I'm not even sure why you would want to do that, that's why there is 4 controller ports on the front. But if you did anyway, the PSX already has a thing that allows you to connect to PSX's together. So I guess it wouldn't be too hard for the DC to do the same thing if Sega really wanted them to do that.
And for the final time, THE DC DOES NOT HAVE WINDOWS CE AS IT'S ONLY OS!!! Every single time a DC story is ever posted on /., tons of ignorant people who hear the word Microsoft automatically think, without even bothering to check, that it means it always run's CE and doesn't/can't run anything else. CE is just one OS that can be used, the developer picks which one he uses. Sega also has their own OS that a developer could also use. It depends entirely on the game what OS it uses. Please get your facts straight before you start spewing off FUD.
Yeah... and do you remember when you'd have everything all up and working perfectly, and then those goddamned pesky dinosaurs would come stomping through the place and wreck everything? That used to really piss me off. (grin)
I used to set up two modems on two different PCs just a regular phone cable in between way back when there was just Doom. As I remember I had to pass some particularly cryptic AT-commands to the modems on each side, but it worked. I find it hard to beleive that Sega wouldn't provide some sort of support for this type of setup because it's so common and technically pretty trivial.
Of course it's not anywhere near as cool as having the systems set up on a LAN, but it's workable.
Sega does have to make a choice between cable and DSL, though.. I don't have cable, so I'm not sure how many cable modems out there have Ethernet hookups. Also worrying are those people who are now buying DSL modems on a card instead of an external modem with Ethernet jack.
To be honest, perhaps the most worrying of all to me is if they rig (is this possible at all? it might be...) it to not support hubs or PC NICs, only DSL/cable/etc, or if they did a DSL setup but gave special preference to people going through provider X...
Also keep in mind they have more opportunities for profit in their modem stuff than in opening their servers to ethernet hookup (and thus possibly to remote attacks). You can't ping flood a Dreamcast or the server it's playing on - do they want that? (And, on a more amusing note, do we want to introduce to Dreamcat the plague upon gaming society that is LPB whining? =D)
One thing is for sure, if the modem IS soldered on, the resulting controversy could just be a fatal kick in the jimmy, after the bad ROM fiasco.
I'm a LAN admin myself, and I'd rather shoot any one of my users in the head... ;)
Boy, I'm damn glad I don't have to call you to reset my password!!!
Strong data typing is for those with weak minds.
"Just think about where most LANs exist, in the workplace. How many workplaces do you think would allow Sega machines to be plugged into the LAN at the office?"
GRRR... you are obviously an admin. As Director of Information Technology for a rather decent sized company I will tell you that it has been my experience that LAN games relieve stress in the work place. They also tend to form a friendly and competitive bond between the people in your department. I allow scheduled LAN games during the week as long as work is completed and projects are on schedule. Running an IT department is like teaching elementary students with extremely high IQs. If we finish this assignment I will give you an extra five minutes at recess, ooh... ah. No not really, running an IT department is actually about taking a bunch anti-social computer nerds and give them a place to work were they feel comfortable and if LAN games keeps them productive and happy then so be it.
"I'm a LAN admin myself, and I'd rather shoot any one of my users in the head rather than allow them to play games on my LAN. "
By the way it is rather hard to imagine that you are only an admin with social skills such as these. Learn to lighten up and you'll go farther in your courier and in life.
Performance issues:
Let me tell you a little something, if you are running on 100BT Ethernet or better on your network it shouldn't matter that they are playing games. No one is going to be able to tell the difference except you and whoever is monitoring LAN traffic if anyone does that on your network.
GAMES PLAYED ON OUR LAN:
Quake II, Batlezone, Commanche 3, Longbow II, Dark Reign, CNC, and much more. The ones I listed were my favorites back when I had a chance to regularly join in.
"Stupidity is a virus not a virtue, if infected please kill it."
"Help me Obi-/.-Kenobi,your my only hope!" -$
Sega does have to make a choice between cable and DSL, though.
= -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I don't think this is the case. I have seen three different brands of cable modem and two different brands of DSL modems and both have plain 10Base-T on the back. The new cable modems @Home is using in Georgia have dual coaxial input and a 10/100 connection.
I don't have cable, so I'm not sure how many cable modems out there have Ethernet hookups.
I'm willing to bet all of them, since it makes little sense to invent new technology when 10BaseT ethernet is just so dirt cheap. Even if the cable modem doesn't need that much speed it's still much cheaper to get an ethernet card than rig some new proprietary connection. Although, some of the newer Motorola modems are using a USB connection. This is clearly not the option for techies since you can no longer connect to a hub and you are onyl supported with Win98.
Also worrying are those people who are now buying DSL modems on a card instead of an external modem with Ethernet jack.
Again, this isn't a move for techies since they will want the high speed connection to go to more than one computer (via a hub). Or, this is for techies who are smart enought to make that one computer the proxy/NAT machine and then put a plain ol' 10BaseT to a hub that has the other boxes (including the hypothetical high-speed DreamCast).
If you have an ethernet card on something, then by definition it support a hub...since the hardware is the same, just some connections (card to card or hub to hub) require a crossover. Assuming there was a switch to crossover or not (like on most hubs) this would be find.
I maintain that it would be way easy to ping or flood a Dreamcast connection if they went anywhere but a private network. Once I have the IP, it is maybe ten seconds work to get rid of some puny modem connection.
Or were you talking about ping flooding from the
DreamCasts? How the hell would you do that without access to the operating system?
Just my thoughts...
- JoeShmoe
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-- I wonder which will go down in history as the bigger failure: the War on Drugs or the War on Filesharing
I wish my fellow Linux geeks would get this message: THERE ARE CURRENTLY *NO* DREAMCAST GAMES AVAILABLE WHICH USE THE WINDOWS CE OS. ALL CURRENT DREAMCAST GAMES USE SEGA'S OWN KERNEL.
The reason: most pro game development houses found that the performance and other restrictions in Windows CE were simply unacceptable, and opted for the good ol' safe and proven iTron-based SEGA Kernel...
You know, if more of us anti-MS zealots knew this, maybe the Dreamcast would be viewed a bit more favourably as the games machine that proved WinCE isn't up to the task.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Here is a breif post on rumors of ethernet for the dreamcast.
Isn't is just as short-signed to ignore the number of homes that have cable modems or DSL and would like to run 10Mbit connection to that puppy?
= -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I'm hoping (for Sega's sake) that they are working on an addon module to enable a good ol' 10Base-T (or maybe even 10/100) connection.
Of course, if they simply upgraded the modem (by swapping out the part) to support home networking that would be a great solutions. Home networking is basically DSL connectivity within a household, something computer makers like Compaq are already doing.
I really, really, really hope Sega wasn't stupid enough to hard wire the modem on the motherboard. Anyone who has been around more than two years know that modem tech changes practically every six months, and I sure hope the Dreamcast has a long lifespan than that.
I don't even have a phone line in one of my residences because my cell phone is my primary phone and the residence has a cable modem. This means I can't even get digital cable service because the stupid GE box requires a regular phone line! (duh? TCI spend how many millions to enable two-way communication over their cable network, then decides on a cable box supplier that uses phone lines).
I also couldn't use DIVX, but I don't consider that much of a problem at all. =)
Just my thoughts...
- JoeShmoe
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-- I wonder which will go down in history as the bigger failure: the War on Drugs or the War on Filesharing
http://www.gaming-age.com/ne ws2/november98/111998e.htm
http://www.gamenfo.com/Dreamcast/dr eamcast.html (ick, apologies in advance for the popup)
The 56k modem is in a pluggable module, so evidently Sega designed for this.
There is a serial port on the back of the console, but that seems to be better placed or suited for unit-to-unit connections rather than anything high speed (like ethernet).
More DC tidbits: drwiii Stupidly Disassembles his Dreamcast
--
The list of items rumoured to be in development for the Dreamcast include:
- Ethernet adapter
- Zip disk system
- DVD Player add-on
- USB port (part of the Zip addon)
- Higher capacity VMU's
- Serial link cable
I'd say that its just too soon for Sega to release this stuff - makes more sense to me that they'd wait for more multi-player games to be released that require things like the network adapter before actually releasing it.
The built-in 56k modem actually works quite well, and combined with the Sega keyboard it makes web browsing quite simple. I wish we had a trackball or mouse accessory though - I haven't heard of one being developed, and I try to stay on top of things like this.
So far, my guess is that there just aren't enough Dreamcast-owning people who *HAVE A NEED* for an ethernet adapter right now to justify the huge ramp-up production costs... but I bet that we will see this adapter soon.
Maybe within the next few months, when a few choice game software developers also release some good multiplayer games for the Dreamcast system this Christmas as well...
Now, the DC + Keyboard + eth0 + trackball mouse combo would be quite a killer setup, especially if the total cost were less than $300 (for all of it, including the DC). This would make for a very nice web-based data entry system for quite a few of my clients, games-machine capabilities aside...
j.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
It's not too hard to make the Dreamcast talk TCP/IP over the network of your choice.
Items required:
1 Dreamcast
1 Linux box with reasonably quick modem
2 RJ-11 telephone patch cords
1 network
1 phone line simulator from Viking
Make PPP dialins work on linux box. Make PPP dialouts work on Dreamcast. Connect linux box to line simulator, connect line simulator to Dreamcast. Execute whatever sequence of button-pushage and disc-swappage required to initiate a call to the remote (several feet away) linux box. Enjoy.
Kid-proof tablet..