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Legal Actions Against Linux-DVD authors
Teancum writes "Legal actions have already started to happen against the programmers who wrote the DVD-CSS decription routines. This page contains the official response by the programmer, who has had his web site shut down by his ISP. I guess that the DVD Forum doesn't want to see an open source project that can read DVD-Video. More info about the Livid project can be found here. " Update: 11/05 04:33 by H :Check out the latest announcement from his site - eMedia has done a great report on the whole thing - read this.
yeah! down with computer manufacturers (build your own, from sand, wood, and copper ore!), telephone companies (make your own wires and string them to all of your friend's houses), cable TV, movie studios (fuckin greedy theives, making movies that cost tens of millions of dollars... you can make your own for ten dollars and a CamCorder), electronic companies (oops, no CamCorders), record companies, package delivery services (won't be anything left to deliver anyway), airlines (no reason to go anywhere), hospitals, any drug company who ever invested R&D money to create the pill that might, someday, save your life.
there is nothing wrong with "Big Business" that isn't already wrong with people in general.
I have discovered a truly remarkable proof which this margin is too small to contain.
Notice where it says (In section 2A)"advertises for sale or hire or possesses in the course of a business" are the conditions for breaking the law. As he has neither offered for sale or substantially benifitted from the CSS decryption code, I figure he is probably safe.
.sig: Now legally binding!
In this age of nigh-anonymous free webpage accounts, it is hardly a difficult matter to find someplace to upload it, and then to post the URL as an AC.
A lawyer that reads Slashdot is by definition technically inclined enough to realize this. Save the paranoia for the stuff you need to be paranoid about.
These are *MY* opinions.
They will not be *YOUR* opinions until the Orbital Mind Control Lasers are operati
First, which country is this act from and which countries laws apply in this case?
Second, in the US wouldn't 2b violate the first amendment? And would it not violate similar laws in at least some other countries?
The Windows version of DeCSS is available in lots of places (for example, DVDtidbits), and other platforms will doubtless follow shortly. It's far Far FAR too late for the cartel to shut down one or two web sites. They really shouldn't even try, it only makes them look stupid. Well, I suppose using the CSS encryption scheme demonstrates quite enough stupidity...
Nick
-- "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park" - Jim Moran
Solicitor? Damn boy, you should be getting a lawyer not a hooker!
You make some good arguments, but there is some confusion in your logic... (don't worry, this isn't a flame :o)
Most likely, the DVD Forum (previously the DVD consortium) has a patent or copyright on the way that DVD's utilize this system.
OK - they may have a patent, but since the site has been shut down due to "copyright infringement", such a patent would have nothing to do with this. Patents and copyright cover different things; they could patent the method (algorithm) but could only copyright code (program/subroutine).
It could be that the only way a Linux DVD player could exist would be to write code that works with this patented system. You can either license it, or steal it. This may lead the Forum to believe that there is only one way to write code to work with their system, so it MUST be a copyright violation.
Not if it's patented; that would be patent infringement. In order for it to be copyright infringement, they would have to have posted someone else's code. (Which they didn't.)
So they may be guilty of patent infringement, but not of copyright infringement.
Of course it would have. Someone would have said, "That won't work. You see, once someone gets a single key, which they will be able to do if they disassemble or just pay attention to what a software decoder does, the whole thing goes ka-blooey."
-=-=-=-=-
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My mom's going to kick you in the face!
Hey, I could be wrong, but I though that was academy ratio. Academy ratio motion pictures (pre-widescreen) were in an aspect ratio similar if not identical 4:3 and this called the academy ratio. Perhaps academy ratio is slightly different. The only reason I was willing to call it that was that I have never seen vertical or horizontal letterboxing when they show academy ratio movies on TV. So, if the academy ratio is NOT 4:3, then it is close enough that there is no signifcant cropping. They certainly dont pan-and-scan them!
Right now it seems to me as we might be overreacting, but I doubt it will stay that way for long If this comes to be the case lets email them. One thing to remeber keep the language clean and be polite, because the minute one of use is rude and pisses them off they will ignore us and all is lost. Another thing to remeber is that capitalism is democratic, buying a product is vote and everyone listend to their pocketbook.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
i'll say that again. this is a bunch of crap. is the css stuff gonna need hosting that's not gonna cut them off at the faintest smell of legal action? jwhitema@netscape.net
Uhhm. The CSS encryption was reverse engineered in Norway. Reverse engineering is specifically protected by Norwegian copyright law. They DID play by the rules.
I've wondered quite often when such a site would come online, some way to keep track of which companies to boycott (with the reasons for them being in the database). ...have a way for people to "sign" the petitions and hopefully follow-through and not purchase any.
Wayne
There is little to fear -- the fact that the industry went after the authors already suggests that they're archeologically ignorant of how an information network functions. Before they made their stupid attack, there were perhaps a hundred copies of the source. Now there are thousands, spreading all over with an O(n^2) growth surface area, and they'll never be able to catch them all (my copies are in two secured machines far enough apart that a strategic nuclear warhead couldn't get them both, and no paper trail -- some friendly overseas mirrors would help, though).
If it does come to a court case against the linux-dvd authors, though, it would be great to see organized OSS community resistance -- legal defense funds, PR/letter efforts, source-code T-shirts and such stuff. As the OSS community grows in scope, it will naturally tend to come in contact with more legal pigheadedness, and it would be useful to have some sort of organized defenses (conventional and guerilla types) to cope with an attack.
it just dawned on me - what we're really talking about here is the key that was found in the Xing code, plus some others that were guessed once it was known.
It's pretty obvious that the guessed ones can't be copyrighted .... being encrypted they haven't even been published so they must be trade secrets .... the only people who could be prosecuted would be people who gave them away ... and no one did, as I understand it, they were obtained by deduction, not reverse engineering or any sort of theft.
On the other hand the original key that was in plaintext in the Xing code was obtained from a copyrighted work ..... can something that's just a number be copyrighted? (I know it can't be trademarked)? Can I copyright '9', or better yet '0'? how about '42'? or '78687622'? can one draw the line (yeah I know it's law, not math and they have different criteria for getting stuff done .... but if some people are going to own numbers I want to stake out some usefull ones before the land rush gets going).
Seriously though it seems that one could 'own' a number in a certain context .... for example '987492837498234898732' in the context of DVD might be a copyrightable number .... but what if I want to use it in a paper on number theory? or it's a large prime I want to use in a paper on primes?
Of course the problem here is that in order for this DVD-number to be usefull it has to be secret but copyright requires publishing - the minute it's published the number loses all it's worth - so maybe we're just looking at lawyer smoke&mirrors
Oh, and the 24-inch referred to my screen diagonal measurement. It wasn't meant to be part of the aspect ratio comment...
Is it ever possible for the legal system of a country to be used by a "monolithic" organization for a legitimate beef? Aren't lawsuits sometimes the right way to proceed? Attacking the legal system, using the whole "information wants to be free" schtick, makes us look like a bunch of cyberhooligans. Maybe if we want to impart real change, maybe we have to join the "establishment", and fight from within. Dirac out.
Bruce,
It's quite simple to see what they've done wrong. All of you mad speculators are assuming that it's the DVD consortium claiming copyright infringement. There is another possibility. Perhaps it's Xing trying to cover their asses so they won't be out the ~$1 million (US) fine that they're going to owe the DVD consortium by the time all this gets settled.
It's uuencoded in a reply to this message.
You have got to be the most ignorant, selfish, ms lover, money hog in the world that I have ever had the displeasure to know about. Sorry if the linux community is smarter than you and that they are willing to write software for free on their spare time. You and all the other MS lovers are so concerned about money and being rich. I decide to make a simple calculator for my personal usuage so I might as well distribute it as opensource. However, with you, "OH NO, I better get as much money out of this small program as possible. I wouldn't want to help someone out for free now would I?" Opensource is good for people learning too. I can think of many times where I was not able to figure out how to do something and was able to find out with someones source. Little things like figuring out how to drag a window from anywhere with a mouse click. I suppose you would no nothing about that though because you don't know a damn thing about programming do you? You just pay programmers shitty money so that you can make millions off of their work. You are the one stealing. The linux community gives to people while you steal people's money and lives. You are the fucking pig. You sound like a typical business pig. GET A LIFE DIPSHIT and go back to college and learn something.
This has nothing to do with the entertainment industry angry about a bad investment. Entertainment companies are famous for making bad investments. Just ask any investor.
The DVD pricing scheme has marketting 101 written all over it. Always charge MORE for something new. It doesn't matter if the "New and Improved" version is any better than the old one, consumers will pay more just because it's something different. Other industries thrive on this concept. Car manufacturers stay in existance because of this rule. So do computer manufacturers. Entertainment people are just following the pack here.
www.kernel.dk
It's the CSS code that's important. The ioctl doesn't threaten anyone.
You know, it's probably horde in Finnish or whatever the programmer's language is.
I really do not see what all the fuss is about in the first place. If the DVD consortium had bothered to create open source drivers for LINUX and *BSD then the crack would not have been necessary.
uh, yeah, right.
do you really think that's all there was to it? you don't think there's any chance maybe the people who did this (or the people who would do this) weren't thinking "This is gonna be cool! Free Movies!" ?
get real
I have discovered a truly remarkable proof which this margin is too small to contain.
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Someone explain to me how cracking the encryption is a "good thing" (tm). I ain't seeing it. All it sounds like is that it will make pirating movies a whole lot easier, which IS illegal. And I especially like how in the article posted on here it says "I guess that the DVD Forum doesn't want to see an open source project that can read DVD-Video.". Like being open source had anything with them getting mad at them. They would have gone after MS if it was MS who first discovered how to crack it. If anything, I'd send money to the prosecution.
Also I read about someone else complaining that the protection was very weak, and it was easy to break. Fine - if your front door is unlocked it does not make legal to steal your home. This is not a legal defense.
You're missing something - nobody "broke into anybody's house".
If your front door locked is broken by design, then yes, it's illegal for someone to break in. - but it's NOT illegal for that someone to tell you about it, or to inform the lock manufacturer that they make a shoddy product, or to broadcast to the general public that the locks are faulty.
Nobody broke any laws here - they cracked the encryption for legitimate reasons. Your analogy implies that they broke the encryption and started selling pirate DVD's, which is untrue.
You are dead wrong. They were not doing it to show DVD copy-protection scheme.
k .idg/index.html
"According to CNN, the group was attempting to reverse-engineer a software DVD player in order to create one compatible with the Linux operating system. There is currently no Linux-compatible player."
read http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9911/05/dvd.hac
------ Curiosity killed the cat. {satisfaction brought it back | it didn't die ignorant | lack of it is killing mankind
I accidentally deleted by copy of the decyption code this morning. Arse! Does anyone have a pointer as to where it's available?
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
It's divisible by 2. :)
Heh, check this out: http://www.theonion.com/oni on3311/microsoftpatents.html
"There is a fine line between genius and insanity--I have erased this line."
I don't totally understand the issue, but would be willing to help out if I understood what was going on, who to write, and what to tell them. Has anyone created a single page that describes the work of the programmer(s) in question, summarizes the copyright laws in question, offers one or more analyses of the situation, and suggests an appropriate course of action that people can take to help out? Having all this information centralized would be, in my opinion, a big help by enabling casual Slashdot readers like me lend a hand.
Take care,
Steve
Where do we send legal defense contributions? Do not let these coders suffer for their efforts!
-=-=-=-=- osjedi uses Debian GNU/Linux. -=-=-=-=-
but is it *intended* to circumvent copyright, or just play the dvd?
That poor guy. He's going to have to fend off legions of corporate, monkey lawyers now. Someone mirror his stuff now before it's lost forever.
Hates people who have stupid little sigs
..so theft is theft. Wait a minute..what was stolen here? Nothing!! People have hardware that they want to be able to use in a certain way. They experience a problem because the supplier wont assist in any way. They write their on software to solve their perceived problem. Now, if I wanted to modify my car it would be ridiculous to even assume that the manufacturer of the car would even consider coming up to me, prohibiting me from modifying the car. We dont license hardware - only software. If we choose not to use the software, then choosing to use our own software is perfectly fine. The problem lies in if people will use the code to copy DVD-movies - but that problem resides firmly with the person making the copy and retailer of the movie. No one's going to tell me how I'm supposed to use one of my own possesions that I have acquired with my hard earned cash. No one
A while ago I had an email correspondance with Creative Labs about releasing drivers for their DVD card. Their reply was that I should write to the DVD consortium because they have restricted Creative not to release drivers for Linux. (Probably our friends at Micro$oft had something to do with it). I was really surprised by that reply, and, now I will support the developers as much as I can ane we will protect Linux-DVD. FT
This may be a bit of a tangent, buy most versions of quicken are not y2k compatible if I remember correctly. I think quicken99 is, but before that I think youre out of luck.
penguinicide... when jumping out a window just won't do.
If there's going to be a major court battle, it's going to get expensive. I hear a lot of talk about what is/isn't prosecutable around here, but when it actually comes to a case, does the open source movement have a legal defence fund?
I know the FSF has a legal team, but I've never heard that they'd do anything but enforce the GPL. Would they get involved in this kind of thing?
--Parity
--Parity
'Card carrying' member of the EFF.
"Anybody with a vcr has been able to copy any movie ever released to the VHS format, yet this industry has not collapsed so far as anyone knows"
I presume that you are refering to copying one tape to another (using two VCR's)? It's not as straight forward as copying using a home VCR due to Macrovision. Macrovision plays with the gain in the VCR, effecting copies but not the TV.
"If they were really worried about pirates, what about screen captures? What about split data streams? What about capturing the signal from the decoder and saving the raw output to a vcr? What about every other possible way to copy something that can be seen or heard? You simply can't encrypt something of this nature, so why try?"
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that MPEG-2 is compressed. A straight screen or data stream capture would require huge amounts of storage space and make redistribution tricky. I've also heard that DVD-Video also utilises Macrovision, making copying to tape difficult without some additional equipment.
You're right: there is always a way around the system, especially if people are willing to sacrifice image and sound quality. These options increase with time, but by making it harder now, the industry can make bigger profits now.
Personally I don't know why the industry bothers: I would suspect that the average consumer doesn't care for or can't be bothered wih pirating, or they'd be a bigger problem now with current technologies.
1) Stupid people release broken, closed source product. 2) Smart people point out the flaws. 3) Stupid people blame smart people and make their lives hell. ....this "pattern" appears not only in software, but seemingly in every industry. i hope for the day when the bastards responsible for closing his site pay dearly for their idiocy. but they don't "get it" -- the smart people HELPED them find the flaws and fix their product...a product they refuse to make available to a significant portion of the computing population! (linux). dvd is starting to suck. yet another good guy gets his face slapped by the stupid and powerful. substitute (slapped,face) with an alternate (verb,anatomy) pair for a more vivid picture of what's happening.
The emperor has no clothes. Sound familiar? Like the story, nobody wanted to acknowledge that the DVD encryption sucked - it was trivial to crack! I'm sure the people that initially released this knew it was weak. I mean... 4 bytes for encryption?
Now somebody comes out and says "Sir, you have no clothes"... and boy is the emperor pissed! MS did the same thing with hotmail (bad hackers, bad!) - blame somebody else. Security is not about ignoring issues.. it's about confronting them. Make it public.. let people try to crack it. If it stands the test of time... THEN it's secure, and not before then. The movie industry just spent several billions on security training.
--
I don't see how you can relate this to the linux community demanding free stuff. The fact is that the linux community wants to grow and all you Microsoft/Money lovers out there prevent linux from growing. The only way linux can grow is for the linux community to make it grow. It was obvious that dvd would never come to linux by a corporation so these coders took it open themselves to make it happen. Dvd is the only thing Microsoft has over linux and we want that to change. Anyway, it's not the coders fault that the dvd encryption was piss poor. I mean a 4 byte encryption? What the hell? That's like putting X+2=4 and bitching at the linux communtiy that we published the answer is 2. To some Ignorgant/DUMB people, the x is a code and unreadable but to intelligent people, it is 2. Don't blame these guys for being smarter than the encryptors. The fact is that the encrytion was poor and should have never have been used if they wanted to keep it encrypted. We don't want free dvd movies, nor free dvd players. We just want to be able to play them in linux and that's all. Go back to college you microsoft lover.
Could someone put up a mirror of their CVS files and web pages? Maybe put it all in a zip file so it's easy to pass around to many people. Are there any public open source CVS places that you can just leave a source code folder?
Eventually, they'll be able to get their web site back up; but, hopefully we can help them continue the work no matter how many sites are shut down.
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====
Once the jinni gets out of the bottle, it's damned hard to get it back in. Lawsuits might harass individuals, but it won't stop the momentum.
The only way I can see this thing being stopped is for a "DVD2" to come out and for "the industry" to obsolete all DVD currently on the market, and if that happened, I'd bet the consumers would raise bloody hell over it. ESPECIALLY considering how long everyone waited to get the freaking DVD standard in the first place.
-=-=-=-=-
-=-=-=-=-
My mom's going to kick you in the face!
Copyright laws were designed to strike a balance between the consumer and the creator of a product. Its not fair to the creator for someone to give away thousands of copies of his product so that the creator makes no money, but it is also unfair to the buyer to be foreced to only use the product in the way that the creator originaly made it. What this means is that copyright laws allow you to do things like: like make as many copies of a cd as you want, or copy that cd onto another media (like tape), but this is to be for your own personal use and not for resale or distribution (though in some states distribution is not chargeable). Many industries these days are using new media formats to attempt to manipulate how the copyright laws work. Every areticle I have read talks about how this program allows for the "illegal copying" of DVD or the "illegal copying of music to MP3." But these aren't illegal processes, you are merely making a copy for yourself to another format for backup or easier use. There is nothing wrong with this. Yes, it can be used for illegal purposes, but that does not inherently make the product illegal (hell, you can sell bongs in most states). The long and the short of it is that these encryption techniques (etc.) while trying stop illegal copyright violations is also stopping the consumers legal rights granted to us by copyright laws. And now we see how bad this is, the common citizen looss their legal right and the illegal activities will not stop because the incription formats will never be good enough.
Its sad that these big companies are having to throw around high priced lawsuits to hide the fact that they got caught with their pants down. They should have anticipated the need for DVD software on the linux platform, but instead they chose to leave it out, instantly making it a target for geeks, hackers, and coders everywhere.
Whoever brought the suit up should be ashamed of themselves.
~spot
"and no, im not the spot working for Transmeta, although i wish i was..." -- ~spot "i'm the epitome of public enemy..."
They stumbled across 4 bytes that Xing left lying around. They put it thru a DVD and found it worked. How is that illegal?
Why not just look after your discs? I've never managed to destroy a CD (or DVD or Dreacast GD).
If you hate Tovralds, then you are either stupid or you are bill gates(Notice the lowercase and that Notice gets a capital letter). As far as ripperX goes, I LOVE IT and no I do not distribute mp3s. I have at least 350 cds and about 400 mp3s. Now lets see if you can figure out if that is less mp3s than songs on the cds I have. I have 4 cd players but they are not always convient. When I'm in my car or just in my room, I will listen to the cds. However, if I'm on my computer doing work, it's much easier to play mp3s and change songs with a mp3 player than it is to use cds. All you bitches to is bitch and makeup bullshit lies. You sound like a dumbass that is concerned with nothing but ripping people off. No, I'm not a programer even though I can. I'm a Physicist working on my PHD so you can take it from my side too. Everyone that bitches about linux are the dumbasses that probably jumped on the management train durning college becaues their initial major was to hard and required to much work on their part. LAZY! Get a life!
You are forgetting one very important thing. Rules were made to be broken. Microsoft allready taught the WHOLE WORLD how to do this. And HEWL YEAH if i can have something for FREE why the hell should i go pay $$$$$ for it? Some of use cannot afford to pay MS taxes everytime they brake their protocols , and everytime they release a patch to their lousy OS.SO we use a FREE BETTER product. Free software is here to stay. End of story. PERIOD. IN the long run everyone will see that.The "rules" as you call them are changing very rapidly and radically. Wake up and smell the coffe....
"It would have cost us, the consumer, more money if they had decided to release 128 bit encrypted titles in the US and 40-bit encrypted titles to the rest of the world. That's two smaller runs rather than one larger run. Sure you can yell about the export laws but they're a different subject."
Umm, hello !
Can you say region codes ?
They already do have to do multiple different runs because the morons don't want your to view a US film in e.g. the UK due to the different release schedules in the cinemas. It doesn't seem to have occurred to them that it's not hard to run an NTSC TV and a US DVD player in the UK. Of course most people don't do that since lots of places sell "region free" players with modified firmware allowing people to view region 1 DVDs elsewhere anyway.
>I'm not sure I understand why they (the entertainment industry) has their shorts all in a bundle over this. Surely they new that at least some people would be knock off DVDs via a redigitalization of the analog signal? Sure, it isn't as high quality and the seconday channels are lost, but aren't they already subject to piracy galore with VCRs? And yet they make money hand over fist on VCR rentals and sales. I am fully capable of copying videos at home, and yet most of my videotapes are purchased, pre-recorded videos.
;-P
You won't get far without some kind of macrovision defeat. Difficult to find (unless you like to build electronics kits), and usually illegal (no, stripping macrovision isn't illegal, using one of the patented methods is.). Commercial boxes aren't cheap.
Although, I 100% agree with you, $20 or so is my limit for software that doesn't do EVERYTHING I need it to do, PERFECTLY.
I've actually found DVD's relatively reasonably priced, here, in Canada (although boxed sets are much too overpriced). And, cheaper (yes, cheaper!) to rent. Just $1 CAN a night at Steve's TV. I bought the matrix for $24.
I didn't buy DVD for the picture, I bought it for the dolby digital surround sound. That was worth it. It makes a crappy signal seem like film
If you want to be really lame, you could always sync a camera to the CRT refresh, and record the picture on the CRT itself, as if you were watching it. This can never, ever, be defeated.
BTW: DVD isn't (technically) going to look a whole lot better on HDTV. It doesn't have enough resolution lines to make use of it... Buuut, the increased width of the display will allow for a few more scanlines. Not enough to make a big deal over though. I think it will look better though, due to tube/flat screen/lcd/etc.. technology advances giving a sharper image. Not due to the HDTV standard, though.
Overall, your arguments are good... Too much Intellectual Property is sold at too high a price nowadays. Like the CAD software at my College: $10,000 per copy. For a large company, at that price, why not just hire a team of programmers to make you a custom solution?
On our Panasonic A-120:
- S-Video
- Composite
- ColorStream
No RF. I guess they figure if you can afford the player your TV doesn't suck. Only coax/optical digital Audio output.
Some lame-ass DVD players, including (I think) mine, won't even play a region 1 PAL disc (does this exist?) in an NTSC region 1 player, and vice versa.
I can't tell you how many copies of CD's I go through. Tapes as well. So, I got a Minidisc, and I copy my CD's to them.
Whenever the minidisc gets chomped, dropped, boiled.. whatever, I not have my original CD to go and copy back out.
This is perfectly legal. I won't switch to DVD until I can get my fair use out of it. And, just like my CD->MD conversion, I expect perfect quality, digital.
Pan
I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.
I wish I could bell the cat, but I'm afraid I have neither the time nor the expertise; however, I have an idea.
What if people who are into these things got together and established a freely-available technology akin to DVD? What if they then made the encryption/decryption technology part of the hardware, or gave the proprietary-content people a way to plug in security at the hardware level? If that happened, we'd have a situation where (as always preferable,) people would have a *choice* about how to encode, or whether to encode, security information into their content.
I think media-to-eye paths should be viewed just like any other communication path. Satellite television and cable television are not, in themselves, proprietary routes for information. It's the responsibility of the indivitual cable companies and providers to scramble/descramble their transmissions. This has *nothing* to do with the particular television set we use, because the set is a standard device that responds to standard signals.
There will always be greedy people to fight these kinds of things, either for their own pocket or their own expediency. But, ultimately, there's no long-term advantage for that.
If DVD is cracked, it's cracked. Punishing the people who did it isn't going to stop future crackers, but it *will* give those of us who already distrust the mass-media industry a bad taste that can only get worse. Look at what's gone on with MP3. There could be an ever-widening gorge between the mass-media producers and those they are supposed to serve.
Unless we can come up with an alternative that everyone can live with.
What say? Is it worthwhile? Or should we just continue fighting with each other, and see where the war gets us?
--------------Rev. C.C.Chips---------------- For the real truth, visit
Would that closed source player be 100% linux compatible? Do you think there are many closed-source companies willing to develop binaries for:
- Atari
- Amiga
- Macintrash
- Etc...
Linux is about compatibility. Closed source breaks this...
And when the money for this player runs out, and Linux 3.0.0 or XFree 5.9 won't run the last player release, what then? Pump in more money? Break linux to make a closed source program work?
"I use windows at work, so my kids won't ever have to use it."
looks like open source and computing are approaching a nexus similar to that of the people vs. tyranny.
let's all meet in the usa, dress up like indians, board a container ship full of dvd's, and throw them overboard.
it's starting to look like programmers are destined to be the next freedom fighters -- with a personal obligation not to the gov or law but to freedom and knowledge, even when it threatens their freedom.
RMS was right -- Free Software is starting to resemble Free Speech.
Uhhh, but the conversion is going to take even longer than real-time playing...
Imagine this:
30 minutes ripping time + 5 or 6 hours MPEG-2 decoding time for a 2 hour movie, on, say, a Pentium 200 + 18 to 24 hours MPEG-1 encoding time. Don't even think about re-encoding it into a lower-resolution MPEG-2 stream. That would take weeks.
Now, not only did it take you longer to convert it than it took to rent the VHS tape, but it looks like sh*t (worse than VHS). 320x244, all pixellated whenever anything happens, YUCK! And a very nastily compressed soundtrack to boot! The power comany would love you, though.
Of course, if you have 100's of GB to spare, I guess AVI is a choice, but a P-200 wouldn't handle the necessary data throughput (IMHO).
In other words, if it can't play DVD realtime, it may as well not bother.
Devices designed to circumvent copy-protection
296
(1) This section applies where copies of a copyright work are issued to the public, by or with the licence of the copyright owner, in an electronic form which is copy-protected.
(2) The person issuing the copies to the public has the same rights against a person who, knowing or having reason to believe that it will be used to make infringing copies
(a) makes, imports, sells or lets for hire, offers or exposes for sale or hire, or advertises for sale or hire, any device or means specifically designed or adapted to circumvent the form of copy-protection employed, or
(b) publishes information intended to enable or assist persons to circumvent that form of copy-protection, as a copyright owner has in respect of an infringement of copyright.
In an article or two I read that it was Xing who forgot to secure their software and then using that they were able to crack the encryption. If that is the case I don't see how you can blame the guy who wrote the DVD-CSS decryption routines, even if they were weak.
Is this not the case?
And lets say it is the programmer's fault. How do you legally define good and bad DVD-CSS decryption routines?
I can't imagine a contract stating: "If nobody cracks it, then your ok, if they do, we sue you."
Or perhaps that's how it is?
Hello! The Region code makes a region 1 disc different than a region 2 disc. ie. Different data. Different data will require a different disc pressing.
You said:
>It would have cost us, the consumer, more money if they had decided to release 128 bit encrypted titles in the US and 40-bit encrypted titles to the rest of the world. That's two smaller runs rather than one larger run.
Pressing multiple region coded discs means many smaller runs (much more than 2, actually. I beleive there are at least 5 regions.).
BTW: Region 1 = US and Canada only. Where is 128-bit ok? US and Canada only. ie: Your point is moot. Multiple pressing are currently required, in exactly the same fashion (but for a different reason) as you suggest is why 40-bit would be chosen over 128-bit. A 128-bit Region 1 disc could very much have been legally made and sold in the only regions it supports.
It isn't the fact that they are making a profit that is a bad thing, it is the way in which they are going about it. Making everything unnecessarily expensive and unfree. make your damned money back selling dvd hardware. no need for stupid encryption schemes to guarantee inflated prices.
Hamsters are at least as feathery as penguins. HamLix
no starwars trilogys on dvd without it? AWHHH. Well the dvd starswars trilogy might as well be nonexistant if we can't use use dvd in linux. Not all of us can buy expensive dvd players for the tv, a computer that runs windows so we can watch dvd, etc.......... That's a selfish outlook.
And us PowerPC/Alpha/Sparc guys are chopped liver?
Seriously, we all want to create a royality-free gpl'd version of a dvd player -- we just now need to clean room this decss program, and be able to use it under the GPL'd.
DVD Movies are good. Why limit it to a lame platform like Linux x86?
Legal systems exist to provide persons with an official way to address problems.
This is NOT the type of thing that should be clogging the courts.
This isn't like having the FBI bust up Vinny Bagadonuts' DVD piracy ring.
This is simple bullying. If I independantly developed a recipe for cookies that tasted EXACTLY Wally Amos' cookies, AND if that recipe is different from the "Famous" recipe I'd win in court.
If, I'm selling cookies for $3.00 per dozen at the PTA bake sale and I get hauled into court for "reverse engineering" someones cookie recipe, that's idiotic.
This is NOT about redress of legitimate concerns. It IS about big money corporations throwing their weight around. When has selling out ever been successful as a vehicle of enacting change?
The 1960's long haired, pot smoking radicals, have cut their hair and joined the "establishment" and sold out what they believed in because they all of a sudden wanted the nice jobs and nice houses, and 2.3 kids....Now those former revolutionaries are in control of the same system that they railed against 30-40 years ago and it's "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
And us PowerPC/Alpha/Sparc guys are chopped liver?
Seriously, we all want to create a royality-free gpl'd version of a dvd player -- we just now need to clean room this decss program, and be able to use it under the GPL'd.
DVD Movies are good. Why limit it to a lame platform like Linux x86? Thats what binaries do for us. And binaries will break with future kernels and/or libc.
I doubt if lecturing the judge on semiotics is going to do them much good.
Thanks to Pekka Pietikainen, who found this little goodie.
296 Devices designed to circumvent copy-protection
(1) This section applies where copies of a copyright work are issued to the public, by or with the licence of the copyright owner, in an electronic form which is copy-protected.
(2) The person issuing the copies to the public has the same rights against a person who, knowing or having reason to believe that it will be used to make infringing copies-
(a) makes, imports, sells or lets for hire, offers or exposes for sale or hire, or advertises for sale or hire, any device or means specifically designed or adapted to circumvent the form of copy-protection employed, or
(b) publishes information intended to enable or assist persons to circumvent that form of copy-protection, as a copyright owner has in respect of an infringement of copyright.
[(2A) Where the copies being issued to the public as mentioned in subsection (1) are copies of a computer program, subsection (2) applies as if for the words "or advertises for sale or hire" there were substituted "advertises for sale or hire or possesses in the course of a business.]
(3) Further, he has the same rights under section 99 or 100 (delivery up or seizure of certain articles) in relation to any such device or means which a person has in his possession, custody or control with the intention that it should be used to make infringing copies of copyright works, as a copyright owner has in relation to an infringing copy.
(4) References in this section to copy-protection include any device or means intended to prevent or restrict copying of a work or to impair the quality of copies made.
(5) Expressions used in this section which are defined for the purposes of Part I of this Act (copyright) have the same meaning as in that Part.
(6) The following provisions apply in relation to proceedings under this section as in relation to proceedings under Part I (copyright)-(a) sections 104 to 106 of this Act (presumptions as to certain matters relating to copyright), and (b) section 72 of the Supreme Court Act 1981, section 15of the Law Reform
(Miscellaneous Provisions)
(Scotland) Act 1985 and section 94A of the Judicature
(Northern Ireland) Act 1978 (withdrawal of privilege against self-incrimination in certain proceedings relating to intellectual property);
and section 114 of this Act applies, with the necessary modifications, in relation to the disposal of anything delivered up or seized by virtue of subsection (3) above.
.sig: Now legally binding!
> i can't declare it as a loss on my financial reports (yes, i am a corporation) because there's no way to know how many sales were actually lost due to cracks.
:-) Of course, the people downloading (and using) the crack(s) would not like being tracked like this in the slightest. Then again, the IRS most likely wouldn't accept it if you were ever audited.
That's an interesting point... if you could get some data on the number of downloads of the crack(s) from the sites distributing them, then you'd be able to file them as losses.
That would certainly be an inventive tax trick
At any rate, making copies of commercial content is bad, immoral, unethical, and illegal. However, people still do it -- speeding is unsafe and illegal, but people still do it all the time. I don't think this is really the point, however. As has been said more times than I care to count, we (the linux dvd community in general) don't want to copy the bloody DVD; we simply want to view the movie for which we've paid our good money. It's not our fault the DVD Forum failed to use a system with any hope of preventing duplication beyond blocking any access at all to the disk. Of course, it's been suggested CSS was never intended to prevent copying, but to prevent "fair-use."
You can make up your own mind on the legality... there's arguements on all sides. The only reason I bought a DVD was for tinkering and the volume of data a _data_ DVD will hold (I've got way too many CDs as it is.) I hold DVD in the same light as I2O, Diamond, and Creative. [I refuse to do business with Diamond ever as they refused to release any docs on their gfx hardware for years.]
Ok, this may all seem obvoius, and if it is, please tell me I'm just being insane. But what in the hell is going on here? Let me get this straight:
I could go on for a while, but I see that it's pointless. The fact that they're trying to sue someone for their own neglegence is fairly amusing. But the fact is, they lose absolutely nothing by having the keys cracked. They didn't get anything out of it in the first place - so they can't lose anything.
Is it just me, or does it seem like the DVD industry was trying to pull a fast one on movie and publishing studios... you know, "Hey, DVD is encrypted... so you'll no longer have to worry about bootlegged copies of your product." Now they have to save face, and it looks like they don't like it one single iota. If this is the case, I wonder how they explained the DVD->VCR and similar copying techniques once the stream is decoded... Oh well, back to the drawing board.
Shaun ThomasKildosphere.com
Read: Rabbit Rue - Free serial nove
When the first article on this came out I posted a comment on how they were probably violating some law. Obviously it was moderated down as a troll but it was true anyways. If there's any law against cracking DVD encryption you can bet the RIAA and MPAA goons are going to hit them with it and with the amount of money these guys can throw at lawyers they'll either put these kids in jail or settle on a $multi-million lawsuit if they ever distribute Livid.
Did you post this from a PC? A true blue IBM PC? A non-clone? Well, if we lived in the world you suggest, there would be no clones, since the IBM PC BIOS would never have been legally duplicated by Compaq back in '84.
The light bulb was also proprietary. Perhaps no-one should have investigated it after Edison bought the patents. Who the hell needs light bulbs from other companies anyways when you can enjoy the refreshing glow from the light bulb you just plugged into those red hot 0000 AWG DC wires... Damn, the wires fused again! Ma, go over to the neighbours to crank the handle on the proprietary Bell phone (no touch-tone or rotary dial, that would require knowledge of the phone system), the power is out again!
So was radio. No more FM stereo for you, we'll broadcast at a low quality mono AM station forever, just like Marconi and Tesla did with their proprietary invenetions. Can't do anything better, since we aren't allowed to know how radio works.
>Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.
Yeah, what a waste of time it was, newton's laws, etc... Just because he could give people a better understanding of how the world works, doesn't mean he should have.
If everyone was like you, we'd still have the sun orbiting around us. As proof, I offer this: We would NEVER have known as soon as we did that planets travel elliptical orbits if it weren't for Kepler *STEALING* information from a "colleague". Was that so wrong? I guess so.
Houston Ground Control, this is Apollo standing by... We have breaking news to report! Mars doesn't seem to be where we predicted it to be, let's study planet orbits!
Aww, crap. The +5v DC voltage rod from ConEd melted again! My computer is going to crash once my volta pile breaks down (can't have lead acid batteries, volta's pile would have been proprietary, so how it works, no one could ever figure it out to develop it further.)! But the HD is still spinning, I guess +12v DC is avaliable for a little while longer.
When will you morons get it?
Not likely, this is slashdot, were informative posts get marked down, and silly crap gets moderated up...
Isn't self-censorship great? It's like a box of slashdot level 2 posts, you never know what you might read inside!
If the p*ss doesn't kill ya, the chlorine will! ;-)
(yeah, it's crap, but I felt the urge to hit submit, now!)
Is the term DVD a protected trademark?
:-)
Probably, but you could always call it "GNU DBD" (for "DBD's Basically DVD")
While that post certainly looks like flamebait, I have a feeling that all the others flaming it are looking a bit silly, now that they've realised:
This was probably sarcasm! Sounded almost like MEEPT! for a moment there...
Did you really think this guy was serious about his argument? He's taking you for a ride, and, by the replies to replies to replies, some of you are still on that ride.
This is 100% correct. MP3 is still thriving, and not (in my opinion anyway) harming the music industry. Priacy only occurs in cases where collusion or some other force damages a free market environment (close-source software is another good example).
MP3.com ran a terrific article on this a while ago, called "Why drug dealers don't sell aspirin" - here's the URL:
http://bboard.mp3.com/mp3/ubb/F orum8/HTML/000015.html
Can your IM do this?
That reminds me of this:
:-)
Judge: On the docket today, a suit against Mr. X for breaking and entering, and the destruction of personal property. And a countersuit, made by Mr. X that the personal property would never have been destroyed if making entrace to the house was easier.
Now ask yourself if you want the ability in the coming millenium to make your own desktop movies, your own music CDs, and be able to go on the net and sell 'em to people on your own without going to CBS or Universal Studios? It doesn't matter that much if you're not good, do you want the _ability_ to express yourself in this way?
The alternative is exactly what Bruce says, allowing commercial interests acting as trusts to make it difficult for you to be in the business unless you go through one of the established studios- and there's a LOT of evidence that this is sheer exploitation. I'm not sure how bad it is in film, but in the music industry the exploitation is very very bad, insanely so, outright fraudulent. It's brutal.
The counterbalance to this is ability to produce your own artworks, at several important levels.
- First, it needs to be legal and possible to do the actual artwork. This would compare to being allowed to own recording equipment at all, if you're a musician. This is tough to lose- it would be tyrannical and indefensible to eliminate it, though you'll see just this happening indirectly- you're taxed on blank media by the industries, supposedly to defend against 'pirates'.
- Second, it needs to be legal and possible to distribute your artwork. There are some ways to challenge this, though it is tough. This is the level of ability to record your own work on media that is played on industry standard consumer level players, such as CD players. Soon it will be a question of making your own DVD desktop films and being able to give friends your work to play on their consumer DVD players. I _think_ DVD already punishes independents in that you can't do that yet, you have to be a licensee for huge sums or you don't have ability to record that format and play it on a consumer deck. That's bad, very bad, and it must be changed.
- Third, you need to have the ability to go somewhere and get 1000 CDs/DVDs pressed. Here, CDs have traditionally been strong- there are many small outfits that will burn a case of CDs for you. I think there is a concerted effort going on to make it so no such availability will be there for DVDs. If you have a hit underground rock album and enough grassroots/net distribution to justify pressing them in the thousands, you can do that today. I'm not aware of any way to legally and practically have a hit underground _film_ and press DVDs of it in the thousands, and this is a very serious problem and concern for freedom. We are not talking about pirates here, we are talking about the voice of the artist or independent filmmaker.
- Finally, you get up to extremely heavy distribution. There may be a problem in getting along with the big entertainment trusts, but if you're playing on those levels you already have your own distribution networks and can cut deals from a position of strength, by shipping X many products and saying 'There. I could move 6X as many with your distribution. You can have a cut of that, or you can sit by and I'll get someone else for it or grow until I'm doing it myself'. At this level the artist does not need that much protection as he or she has _arrived_ and is doing business effectively, with extensive distribution already.
That's basically 4 levels. Currently, with regard to CD-Roms, the levels to watch out for are second and third- if new consumer CD hardware refuses to play the existing format, it would be suicidal but would also be a way of 'taking back' control of CD authoring from the independents. More significantly, the people who can press 1000 CDs for less than a grand have to be protected- if they are harassed out of business, the independent would have to try releasing their work on blue dye-CDs pressed one at a time, and that doesn't scale. Access to the industrial duplicators _must_ remain.With regard to DVDs, it looks like the entire first three levels are at serious risk. I'm not certain you can burn the DVD format at home with your own material: THAT has got to change (rejoicing if I'm wrong here, but I kind of doubt it.). By the same token, if you can't burn it you can't give it to a friend, the datasizes are not comparable to the industry offerings, and if it's made illegal to 'pirate' defined as burn movie content onto a DVD (backing up HDs OK but video content, you're not allowed to?) then level two is shot- if you distribute your own work burned in DVD format you could get done for piracy even though it's your own work. Finally, the third level is the volume producers- if they are stamped out in the name of antipiracy it is an incredible imposition on the independent artist, because without that ability to work hard enough to earn the money to ship the commercial grade content on standard media in volume, nobody is ever going to get to stage 4, the stage of jockeying for position and making room for yourself at the table. To do that you _have_ to be able to move the units yourself and present the big distributors with a fait accompli- giving them an unsolicited tape will not cut it, you have to show them your network and the amount of units you're currently doing.
Are we going to let the industry BAN us from producing artworks as independents? (insert 'poetic license' joke here!
The _first_ order of business should be getting control of the ability to master consumer DVDs, just as we are able to master audio CDs legally and unharassed. If that means losing the encryption so be it- there are important issues at stake for the millenium. The technology _will_ come, and people _will_ be able to do desktop filmmaking. It's a question of whether the consumer media becomes a wholly controlled property of vast conglomerates, or whether individual artists will be allowed to pursue their artwork using common consumer media for output. You can burn a CD and play it for people (especially if they have a CD-Rom, but maybe even on their CD players.) What if you were only allowed to record on DATs and had to go to Atlantic Records to be allowed to have it made into a CD?
How about this server? (Check a few posts above!)
"I'm Spartacus!"
I wouldn't be suprised if there was an effort to block any new DVD-ROM drives from being able to read DVD movies. That way when the current batch of DVD-ROM drives die the problem goes away. No more DVD movies on PCs. They could just recall any drives that are not in the hands of consumers to prevent any more from being released.
Profits don't impede "progress", monopolies do.
Any company, governement, or whatever will do what they can to stay in power - or stay profitable. Even if this is at the expense of progress. The saving grace to this situation is that there are dozens working in the name of increasing their profits (and thus advancing progress).
Scuttlemonkey is a troll
The way you describe it, I don't see a point. They can press all the DVD's at once and then ship them to different areas at different times to correspond to your release codes, and that's once pressing.
If they have to press one set for the US and then one other set for everywhere but the US regardless of release codes, that's now 2 smaller runs (40 bit & 128 bit) vs. one larger run. The cost of warehousing the DVD's as they're waiting for the release date is negligible.
If there is a patent then the whole thing would be described on the patent server and you dont need to hack it, just read the docs.
"He pointed out that the MoRE programmers, who are Windows users, already had what the Linux community wanted-the ability to play DVD movies."
Hehe ! That hurts, doesn't it ?
ah, security through obscurity. how nice.
>Every monolithic organization uses the legal system of the country that they're in to bully people when their profits are threatened.
It's called *capitalism*. This system can't exist without an overwhelming apparatus of lawyers, courts, prisons, police, and so on, all of which function to protect the rich crooks from getting challenged by the little guys/gals.
How many rich people do you know who are in prison?
Yup, awfully small list isn't it?
Chuck0
Mid-Atlantic Infoshop
www.infoshop.org
What I care about is access to tools.
Give me either access to the ENCRYPTION if there must be encryption, or make the format so you can burn DVDs with unencrypted data, AND THE CONSUMER DECKS WILL PLAY THEM. I'm serious. This isn't about piracy at all. It's 'content protection', in the sense of "You can't be an artist/filmmaker unless you're big enough to be one of the X many corps which can afford one of the encryption slots. Not many of those! If you're just some schmuck making films, you are NOT ALLOWED to produce standard media. If you try we'll sue."
Does anybody see what is wrong with this picture? Who is working on making this state of affairs STOP and giving artists the right to create and distribute their artworks? This goes waaaay beyond the pale, and it really has little to do with piracy at all. It's just the same as taxes on blank media for consumers to tax independent content creators- only this time it appears that it might be possible to TOTALLY cut off every indie artist/filmmaker from the ability to reach an audience. Is this unconstitutional?
Click here for the source, all zipped up and ready to go... ftp://134.173.94.44/cssdvd.zip
I can't comment on doing this digitally, since I haven't worked with really expensive CD-ROM drives, although ALL computer CD-ROM drives are capable of doing it the old fashion way (digital to analog to digital type setup). This isn't the best for sound quality, but in most cases it perfectly fine for everyday -- and is how most Mp3s are ripped and most CD-ROM drives. So basically the analog audio out cable of the CD-Drive hooks to a special analog input on the motherboard.
On newer PowerMacs (G4s come to mind) I have heard that this is completely digital (a PCM digital cable hooks to motherboard directly), so you don't get any sound degration at all from the decoding and reincoding and redecoding of the music.
Why they don't just use standard ATAPI or SCSI for digitally encoded sound data is beyond me. Maybe because it takes up to much bandwidth on slower buses? Or maybe because the CD player would stop playing (or play static) when you were transfering lots of data this way?
Again, I have only messed with PowerPC-based PowerMacs, so I don't know how PCs do this.
Well, my understanding is that the reason these people worked so hard to break CSS was because it was the first step on a long road to DVD playback under linux. That's the only connection.
And as Bruce said, RE for interoperability is legal.
As a result of this development everyone who runs Linux or reads Slashdot should today go out and buy at least one DVD movie, whether you own a DVD-ROM or not. This will send Hollywood and the DVD forum a clear message that they have a much larger market now that they can no longer restrict individual freedom under the guise of "preventing piracy." They accomplished nothing more than annoying users who wanted to play DVD under alternative operating systems.
Click here for the source, all zipped up and ready to go... ftp://134.173.94.44/cssdvd.zip
If yer gunna distribute it, at least make sure it compiles first...
The Slashdot effect!!
one idea : if thousand of person from hundred of country add their name in the AUTHORS file this could be a very difficult task to engage a legal action against all this people over the world. This could work only if there is a massive engagement. my 2 eurocents and sorry for my bad english, is not my mother tong, euuuh... my native language. Hervé
You can't declare it as a loss because you don't have to declare the income you didn't get.
I can put "Coca-Cola's Secret Formula" on a web page without violating their trademark. I can't sell a soft drink called Coke or Coca-Cola because that would violate their trademark. A trademark does not mean that nobody can use the name or mark without permission, it prevents others from using the trademark in commerce.
Loss? Are you crazy.
_ _____
You only have loss if you go under the break even point, and that has **nothing** to do with non-executed sales.
GrossProfit (or loss) = GrossIncome - TotalCost
Note that GrossIncome is the real deal and not the "Oh if it wasn't for so and so, I would have made so and so" crap.
In that equation I do not see that "lost sales" anywhere, do you?
_______________________________________________
You probably can't copyright a number, but you CAN make it a Trademark. Peugeot I understand own all 3 digit numbers with a zero in as tradmarkes
e.g.. 205,306, 406 etc
Porsche probably own 911 and some others
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
Oh, please. Any computer that comes with a DVD drive is fast enough to play DVD-movies in realtime; consumers wouldn't stand for it otherwise. Most do this through hardware, which is why we need to get drivers for that hardware up and running.
Many computers anymore could actually do this in software, though it'd eat most of the CPU time. Then again, if you're watching movies it's pretty unlikely you're doing any other work.
What are you trying to do, add a DVD drive to a Pentium-200? While I suppose you could try it, the money would be better spent on a real DVD player and an upgrade for the computer.
Oh yeah; before I forget, do you have any idea how long it would take to convert a 4-gigabyte movie file to something like, say, an AVI or MPEG, which woulf come out larger still?
That's the problem with the industry. So the encryption was cracked. Big deal. DVD piracy is still impractical. One DVD-RAM disk costs more than a DVD movie. The storage space to hold just one DVD movie on a hard drive will set you back by as much as ten movies or more. A DVD drive costs more than a DVD player. And not enough people have DVD drives that you could recoup costs by selling pirated copies, which you'd never be able to sell anyway because you'd have to put them on DVD-RAM media (4-odd gigabytes is still a huge pain to download even on the most high-bandwidth connections), which are already more expensive than the movies, so to make any profit you'd have to price them higher still, and no one's stupid enough to buy that when the movie can be had legitimately for less.
In other words, you've got four cost-related factors which kill DVD piracy's practicality, at least for the moment. And by the time these are nullified, computers will be powerful enough that the encryption would have been cracked anyway, if it's really as weak as the crackers said.
The idiots who say this kind of thing in a boardroom will quickly be selected out of the pool of successful companies because they'll start to ignore Linux.
I don't care if that is actually why they cracked the DVD encryption scheme. It's the reason I'm happy they did, and that's good enough for me.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
Bruce, you have a website. You can post the code in your website to challenge the big powers. You are in the US and could get legal help from the EFF more easily. And, you said there was nothing illegal there. So, just do it!
From what I understand, DVD players themselves will need to be upgraded for (H)DTV. I don't think most of them are equipped to deal with any resolutions but standard NTSC/PAL stuff. Do they even have digital video outs? Oh well, one more reason to wait :)
I'd imagine that they'll try to stuff a more difficult to break encryption in DVDs containing HDTV content that couldn't be played on current players anyways. It is an option for them, and common sense would dictate that in 10 years HDTV on DVD will be how movies will be distributed. They haven't completely blown it (yet). However, the fact remains that any attempt to protect piracy by prevention of access to a consumer will eventually fail. "RESISTANCE IS FUTILE." No amount of paranoia or whining from Hollywood can ever stop it, just as whining by the SPA will never stop software pirates. Maybe Hollywood should just count their blessings every once in a while and realize just where the blessings come from - And give some serious consideration to what alienating the general public by inferring they're thieves could cost them. They have always claimed that the encryption was intended to "keep honest people honest". Fuck off, Hollywood. If you seriously believed the general public was honest, there would be no need for such a stupid, untrusting copy-protection scheme. These are the people who put dinner on your table, water in your swimming pools and gasoline in your SUVs - certainly no one you should be dissing.
A correction for you. It perfectly possible already to burn DVD's at home. I work at a video post production house and we can and do burn our own DVD's. Ok the DVD burner was expensive but they'll come down in price. You only need to be a licensee and pay big bucks to burn ENCRYPTED DVD's. But presumably independant film makers are not going to be too concerned about releasing their movies on unencrypted DVD's.
For a starting filmaker, people passing on copys of their work to friends and even burning illegal copys could help their career a lot as it gets their work seen by more people.
I'm sorry.
You shouldn't post a "speak up and be heard" post here on Slashdot from an A. C. account. The irony is, well, overwhelming.
Anybody can sign a post with anything they want for an email address.
TrouserSnake
You may think it's a trap, but through sheer coincindence, I genuinely did have the source, and genuinely did accidentally delete it this morning. Sigh.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
>It's called *capitalism*. This system can't exist without an overwhelming apparatus of lawyers, courts, prisons, police, and so on, all of which function to protect the rich crooks from getting challenged by the little guys/gals.
Um, no. Capitalism means that companies compete with one another to get ahead in a market.
>How many rich people do you know who are in prison?
That's the way the world works. Rich people don't have the motivation of starvation to push them to rob liquor stores. When rich people become addicted to drugs they can afford expensive rehab or they can afford to keep buying drugs so they are not subjected to the mental condition that occurs when you are going through withdrawal. So they don't have to rob banks to get their next fix.
Maybe I'm just naive and old fashioned but I've always thought that the best product *should* win.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Bad idea. This will discourage legitimate complaints from being brought before a court.
If Caldera was afraid that they'd have to pay M$'s legal bills do you think that they'd dare even speak the words "Microsoft" & "Court" in the same breath?
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Ah! I see!
You want to provide the "hard place" so the ISP can't dodge the rock, and hence will be trapped between the "rock" and the "hard place."
Cool. Drive all the ISPs out of business. Except, of course, the ones that can afford a legal department (there are about a half dozen)
They simly found open keys and thus this is not reverse engineering
I cower at your command of the English language. Can I be yer concubine, d00d?
On a road to a police state it's very important to ensure that media is controlled tight.
Look 10-15 years into the future if trends exemplified by DVD are allowed to develop.
You can't distribute video - the only format being DVD that you can't create unless you got a license from the powers.
You can't distribute audio, since the open MP3 standard was declared illegal.
You can't distribute even written matter, since publishers afraid of copyright violations enforced that the only format text can be distributed in is closed and has to by licensed.
And any of these licensed can be revoked for a lot of reasons.
The only was to speak freely - is in your kitchen - well, congratulations, it's not 1984, it's 2014...
Vassili Leonov
I tend to agree.
Eliminate all the lawsuits. Make it expensive and difficult to open a lawsuit.
That will, of course, kill the GPL. I say good riddance.
Some of you may not agree.
Nick
-- "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park" - Jim Moran
Well if they copied the actual code thats one thing.. However reverse engineering is perfectly legal (despite what some people would like to think).
Why pool all your money to mount a legal defense fund?
Why not pool the same money and use it to produce a licensed closed-source (heavens to betsy! dirty word!) DVD player for Linux?
Or is this not about DVD decoders, and just another little political game, engaged in by people who never use anything but a glass teletype in the first place? (RMS comes to mind...)
Sheesh.
Someone should sue them back for not supporting Linux in the first place. We never would have had to crack it if they would have been nice about it.
If you posted it on the web and called it "Coca-Cola's secret formulae" you would be sued for a trademark violation, I am fairly certain. Of course, you could call it "Fibbitzes secret formulae" and then hope that a journalist somewhere would spread the word that "Fibbitz is the same ad Coca-Cola"
Is the term DVD a protected trademark?
Tyrithe
I wouldn't be so sure he'll be OK. With Hollywood and the zaibatsus siccing their legions of lawyers on him, even if no damages are awarded, this will cost him years of hard struggle and hundreds of thousands of dollars of legal costs. And you can bet they're going to want to crucify the guy, so that his tarred corpse on the gibbet may serve as a warning to future reverse engineers.
It's kind of like that religion popular with all those Hollywood celebrities, which tends to sue critics for the purpose of harrassing them, rather than winning.
Which means that he's the one they're going to try and drive into the ground. You can't sue John Doe for tens of millions of dollars in Mitnickesque damages if you can't identify him. Fawcus was the one sufficiently trusting/unparanoid/naive to put his name anywhere near this thing, which means it's his name on the lawsuits.
Would he be facing extradition to the U.S.? Is jail time a possibility?
Every monolithic organization uses the legal system of the country that they're in to bully people when their profits are threatened.
Look at the RIAA they made Diamond spend tons of money to fight their claim in court when the RIAA knew all along that they'd lose.
They wanted to scare other companies into not making MP3 players. Had Diamond not been as successful in the past they wouldn't have been able ot beat the RIAA in court.
Because these programmers are most likely not multi-millionaires and can't afford 60k(US) in lawyer fees the hope is for them to just disappear.
Like the guys who wrote HLE, like the guys who cracked NT SP4's "security", the DeCSS guys are going to be pounded until they are forced to disappear or by some miracle are cleared.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
youre a troll. M$ stifled competition by releasing unfinished products to the gullible public. now open source can only release better products which actually work..it doesnt dump. m$ has stifled business so much that programmers can only release free software to stand a chance of being seen. thats M$ problem - they've hung themseleves with their own tactics.
There is no requirement to use CSS encryption or regional coding on a DVD title. That decision is entirely up to the title publisher/content owner. There are many titles out there with no region codes and no CSS encryption. You can make a DVD title yourself, you don't need to license CSS or the DVD specs to do so, and it doesn't have to be encrypted. True, the DVD Forum and Hollywood content owners were ill-advised to use CSS, and they're not going to make any friends by going after the Linux community. But they're not quite as all-powerful as you think.
Does anyone know who we could slashd . . . er . . . um . . . contact to voice our disapproval of this behavior?
Encryption is pretty irrelevant to this point - it is entirely possible to create a DVD without CSS encryption (Fargo springs to mind; my company uses it when developing our players during initial hardware or drive testing phases).
Of course, the rest of the DVD standards are also licensed and hence prohibit general entry into content production in the way you mention.
I don't know the laws of Norway, so what are the legal grounds for action against the authors/distributors of the DeCSS package? Perhaps someone more familiar with those laws should comment before we get in a tizzy about this..
Your Working Boy,
If people were smart they would realize that there are some countries were US companies cant do shit. Why not post your little crack on one of there web servers anonymously and let the movie companies fume.
That way, you don't get arrested, spend thousands of dollars in legal bills, essentially ruining your life.
In my opinion, if you only use 4 bytes for encryption you deserve to get screwed!
peace
The above linked page is pretty sparse on info, bascially saying the ISP seems to have shut down the website "for copyright violation". This isn't exactly legal action (yet). Where's the rest of the story?
-- Alastair
In the mean time, let's start some lawsuits.
1) Sue Microsoft, Hollywood and all of the DVD manufacturers for conspiracy to restrain trade. DVD's a big app, and there are no commercial DVD players for Linux, which is the only viable competitor against Microsoft. Coincidence, or conspiracy?
2) Sue whoever got that page shut down for harassment. If the author was within his rights to reverse engineer the code and post it on the internet, threatening him legally should be considered harassment. Corporations like to harass people this way. It's time to start suing them for it.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Did the guy say i386 linux binary? No, he didn't. If they developed a driver (hopefully in collaboration with linus or other people who can help them make sure they provide the right interfaces and stuff), then they would obviously have a much easier time getting it working on a second architecture. I'm sure some company could afford to pay a guy to keep the driver up to date with the linux kernel, and to handle requests for a x-hardware version by using a cross compiler. This person could also keep the driver up to date with new versions of the kernel, if it was found that the binaries stopped working with a newer kernel.
:(
/dev/dvd to be read by a software DVD renderer, you could just copy it to a file instead of rendering it. I don't see how they can provide a Linux driver unless they provide a complete program like they have for windoze, which doesn't give access to the data at any time after it has been decrypted. This would be fine with me, but it would be a lot more work for them. It would also horribly knot the knickers of some open source bigots^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hadvocates. All else equal, I think an open source program would be better. (usually all else isn't equal. Usually, open source programs actually are better (== more functional, stable, and extensible. not always faster of flashier.) :)
Obviously, there should be a *BSD driver available too. (and whatever other OSes people ask for).
I don't know if it would make sense for them to define a new standard for DVDs, and do the above for it. This would obsolete all the hardware DVD rendering cards, I think, so they probably wouldn't do it. New versions of software for the DVD cards could maybe handle it? Haven't taken the time to grasp exactly what is going on with all this
Hmm, wait a minute. If they provided a driver which decrypted a DVD stream, even if the crypto part of the driver was binary only, you wouldn't need to do anything to copy DVDs. Just use the driver itself to get a decrypted copy! If there was a driver that provided a
#define X(x,y) x##y
#define X(x,y) x##y
Peter Cordes ; e-mail: X(peter@cordes ,
Ouch! This is going to be Yet Another Long Drawn Out Legal Bloodbath.
:)
My question is: what are they alleging? Copyright infringement? Of what? The key? It certainly can't be the actual decryption software...
I'm sure that in the long run, the authors will be OK... The industry groups will probably eventually back off... But in the meantime, they are in for a serious storm...
So, who do we protest to? What industry groups? Has anyone bothered to come up with a form "Letter of Protest"?
Say, that's an idea! I'll have a "Letter of Protest" on my site for those who are interested within a few minutes...
Jon Frisby, Sr. Software Engineer,
Personal Site (MrJoy.com)
MrJoy.com -- Because coding is FUN!
Because maybe your machine is too slow to play DVD in realtime, and you want to write it to the HDD and convert it to a different format and play it? Duh.
IANAL, but ... it depends upon where you are, and how patents and copyrights work where you are.
Quick summary of Patents, Copyrights, and Trade Secrets for the USA:
You get a patent on X (and patent protection) for releasing the method for doing X. You get to charge everyone licensing fees for doing X, regardless of how they implemented X. In theory X is supposed to be a mechanical or chemical process, but software algorithms and business processes are patentable in the USA.
You get a copyright on X simply by labeling X with a copyright notice. The copyright protects you from other people using a direct (or indirect) copy of X, but if someone else implements X themselves, without any use of your X in their product, you're out of luck.
You can get a trade secret for X just by claiming that X is a trade secret, but you have to keep it secret. Trade secrets are usually fought-out between companies when critical employees (ie: they had access to the secret) change companies, and the new company starts using X. Trade secrets are damned hard to protect, unless you can implement them in hardware that can't be reverse engineered.
Reverse engineering is the process of gathering information about X without having access to the source code, blueprints, formula, etc for X. Reverse engineering is legal in the USA for purposes of building interoperable products, as long as your final implementation of X does not derive in any way shape or form from the original X. Thus you typically need two teams -- one which reverse engineers X and produces a complete specification of X, and another team (the clean room team) that implements a new X from the specification, and nothing else.
I am sure that the CSS algorithm was not protected by a patent, since the patent process would require that the CSS algorithm be published in the body of the patent. If it was patented, then the DeCSS implementers would be in violation of the patent, but in the absence of a patent, that isn't a threat.
If the CSS algorithm was copyrighted (almost certainly) then it would be protected from people making binary copies and using the copies, but that isn't what happened here. The original reverse engineering team (in Norway) may have violated their shrink-wrap license (the one that says you're not allowed to reverse-engineer the product) but shrink-wrap licenses are on fairly shaky legal ground, and the reverse-engineering clause is probably the least legal.
If the CSS algorithm was a Trade Secret, and someone else figured out the secret, then in general the DVD people are S*** Out Of Luck.
Of course, this is all subject to the legal distinctions between differing jurisdictions, and I have no idea about how the laws in other countries will interact with the US laws in this case. In any case, I don't think that Derek is in trouble, as long as he isn't stashing decrypted DVD movies on his website, but again, IANAL.
We call it art because we have names for the things we understand.
The zip also available here: The complete zipfile
---
One day we'll rule, its the future
Where is the livid page located? Geographically anyway. Perhaps it should be moved to a location where Patent and Copyright laws are a little more... moderate.
Also, I find the fact that the author doesn't even know WHO'S claiming infringment, he's just getting the shaft and a kick to the ass.
Goes Google have a backup of the page? How about anyone's cache? The CVS, methinks the repository needs to be archived in many anonymous places.
We're not in the wrong, but that doesn't mean we won't get our asses slapped around. So lets lay out some contingencies.
What in Hell, you nitwit, are they going to arrest Torvalds for? Writing his own code? Giving it away for free? Jaywalking?
Why is this such an awful ordeal for some people to understand? When are the anti-GNU morons going to realize that if someone - Richard Stallman or Linus Torvalds, for example - sits down and writes an original piece of code it is HIS to dispose of? He can sell it, or give it away free, or keep it all for himself, or give it away with the GNU project restrictions on redistribution, or require users to paint themselves blue and wear a tutu before they can use it. And if any particular user, whining about the constraints on his freedom, doesn't like the license that the code's creator and owner decided to stick on the code, then that user is perfectly free to NOT USE the copyrighted code.
Besides as everyone knows it isn't good free software that's going to destroy the so-called "software industry." What's going to destroy the commercial software industry is itself, with its unending stream of defective garbage, expensive upgrades that never address the bugs, and the source code kept a deep dark secret. (I think some of these clowns are ashamed to reveal their source code for fear that people who can read source would laugh like crazy.)
Sooner or later all the rest of the businesses are going to get sick of seeing their hard-earned profits bled away by the commercial software guys, in return for software that not only breaks all the time but doesn't even meet advertised specs. Businessmen don't mind paying money for sound products, but this pointless, relentless, continually accelerating upgrade-go-round has just got to stop.
Yours WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net
IF I REMEMBER RIGHT THE GUYS WHO DESIGNED THIS ULTRA COOL BIT OF CODE LIVE OUTSIDE OF THE U.S.
DOESN'T THIS MEAN THAT THE COPYRIGHT LAWS DO NOT APPLY?
ARE U.S. LAWS UPHELD IN OTHER COUNTRIES AS WELL?
"Help me Obi-/.-Kenobi,your my only hope!" -$
So does this mean we can be sued if we submit something to bugtraq?
---------------------------
"I'm not gonna say anything inspirational, I'm just gonna fucking swear a lot"
---------------------------
Isn't reverse engineering legal in Austrailia... Can't we just setup mirrors over there and they can't touch it. I thought it was legal here as well... As long as you aren't tainted with the original code it is legal for you to duplicate functionality... If not something is wrong and we need to take a firm stance on this issue. The author should not be alone...
Ummmmm, GeoCities say's that the Webpage wasn't there....
You need to address the issue - ie: why did I kill you? instead of passing a law saying it's wrong. The latter will not stop me. Education will. Which one is the cheap solution, and which one is the best solution? I'll let you be the judge
Both are important parts of the solution. The fact that you're punished for breaking the law has an important deterrent effect. Education alone won't do -- there'll always be people so lacking in moral virtue, willing to steal and kill if there were no penalties (even with penalties, there are *still* people who break the law).
OK, so what if there was a web page set up (or even a little server with a little protocol on a little port) with title keys. No need for all the other manufacturer key crap. One person (per title) cracks the title key in the privacy of his/her home, posts it anonymously to the server. No one can sue the server admin for having a collection of numbers. Debian and RedHat and the like can distribute a player that uses the key to play the movie and don't have to worry about being sued for defeating copy protection.
IANAL, so this is probably chock-full o' holes.
Prove me wrong.
as an independent s.w. developer, i get two or three customers a month who tell me that the only reason they're buying my product is because they can't find a crack that works.
i know there are lots of cracks available, for different versions of my stuff. but, i release so often, that any given patch has a useful life of only a week or so.
even so, i have to assume that people are finding the right crack for the right version and... viola, lost sales.
i can't declare it as a loss on my financial reports (yes, i am a corporation) because there's no way to know how many sales were actually lost due to cracks.
all i can do is accept the fact that people will try, and succeed, in breaking my 'license enforcement'. so i get on with the real stuff - making the products better. a big corporation, on the other hand, may have the resources available to quantify these lost sales. and, the quantity may really run into some serious money.
you're trying to justify what is at best disrespect for the terms of the license of the particular product being pirated - it progresses from there to total disregard for the fact that people earn their livings from producing this stuff (not all the money Sony makes goes to the CEO... real, normal people do the real work) - to, at worst, the idiotic idea that you are fighting a corrupt and evil system.
here's a clue : there is no system. there are just people trying to make money to buy the crap they want. trying to get a free ride by breaking this or that protection scheme is stealing. a theif is a theif. accept it and do something useful.
I have discovered a truly remarkable proof which this margin is too small to contain.
The next thing the lawyers will go after is the CVS repository. Grab the source while you still can.
n et:/cvs/livid cvs -z3 co -r Ver-0_9 css-auth
CVSROOT=:pserver:anonymous@cvs.on.openprojects.
Education is very important; the thing is that if you took the time to educate yourself then you would realize why it is wrong to kill someone. You see, there are so many laws that teaching you all of them and why they are wrong would take their enforcers far too much time -- but the ability to be educated still is available. You just have to take some time out of your day. If you want to be part of society or civilization or government (I use these terms somewhat loosely), you must abide by the law of the land as well as natural law.
If the law of the land is wrong, change it. There are peaceful and effectual ways of changing the law of the land. They may be time consuming, but I stick to my statement above.
Sorry, I guess I'm getting a little off topic -- my point is that if what these people did is legal then good for them, if it is illegal then they should either pay the price or change the law or change their ways.
Legal does have a meaning by the way. It means created by or conforming to law (something along those lines, not sure what Mr. Webster would say).
-- Ace
Here's two companies that I would add to such a list:
"Tetris Company, The" - this company allegedly have the rights to the game Tetris. They allegedly use bully-boy lawyer tactics to attempt to shut down every Tetris clone on the Internet. For more information and to see some nasty lawyer e-mails, visit www.geocities.com/Hollywood/243 0/tetris.html
"Franklin Mint, The" - This company allegedly stole the copyrighted rules for Star Trek 3-D Chess, and when the creator of the rules finally found a lawyer who would do the case for free and sued, the company allegedly used every dirty lawyer trick in the book to derail the court case. The creator eventually lost the case in March, 1999. Official star trek 3-D chess rules may be ordered from the author's site at home.interhop.net/~bag/rev3d.htm. This site used to have details about the lawsuit as well, according to www.treksites.com/Reviews/632.shtml.
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
I agree. If you are too bloody slack to support other platforms, then you risk having it done by someone else. Nitendo and playstation game software, then car performance mod chips scanner chips, and now DVD. What you see is the time lag reducing = net collaboration. You cannot store secrets in silicon. full stop.
This screams in my ears that big business is, yet again, hurting us more then helping us. Progress is the enemy of profits. It may be worth it to start a Slashdot Defense Fund, as this is one of the larger (largest?) forums of free-software users and writers.
OFTC: By the community, for the community
Can we put together a legal defense fund of some sort? Otherwise any Open Source or Other player for Linux is going to be illegal!
Where do I send my money?!?
-- I'm omnipotent, I just don't care.
-- IANAEG - I am not an elder god.
I'll tell you what they're going to arrest him for. They are going to arrest him for writing Open-Source software. That's right!!!!! I'm lobbying the United States congress to pass legislation making open source software illegal. With regards to your point about how they can do whatever they want with it since they wrote it, well duh!!!! If I made a homemade bomb do I have the right to blow it up in some crowded market??? Well I made it didn't I? duh!!!!
The point is that Open-Source preys on the legitimate software industry and if it is allowed to continue unimpeded it will drive companys out of business. That's not the American way, and you can bet that plenty of us are going to work as hard as possible to outlaw Open-Source!!
Sheez, give it a rest. It's not like anybody actually _likes_ using linux. You won't miss it, trust me!!!!
Once again those who seek to make lots of money are 'beaten' by those who love computing/coding. Once again, this has really pissed of the people who want our money.
Part 1 of the uuencoded css-auth program.
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A brief update. Derek posted moments ago to the mailing list. Seems the ISP shut down the site because it "potentially violates the Copyright, Designs & Patents Act 1988; Sectiond 296(1) and (2)".
.sig: Now legally binding!
Your silly. The fact is that with Open-Source runnign things we would all get low-quality software and we have to type "ls -seghklwe" to even get a directory. But as long as open-Source developers get thrown in prison, we dont' have to worry about this happening. That's why I think this is great news.
Part 2 of the uuencoded css-auth program.
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I believe that Real Networks should be held liable for this blunder. It is their fault that all of this has gone down. They were the ones who did not encrypt the decryption key (i love saying that). These crackers should not be blamed for this. Anyways, I will still buy dvd's untill i get a 5 gbps line running into my house (Then i will have streaming dvd's (like HBO)).
Tim
The early porn sites were immediately shut down because the volume of incoming requests either knocked the server offline or the administrators blocked it because the level of traffic was interfering with their other connections. The initial jennicam, a then free, unedited camera set up in a then college student's dorm room was publicized well enough and consumed enough bandwidth to virtually knock the university off the net for several days, and the incoming connection requests slowed their connections to outside down for several days even after the administrators shut the camera down. This is far different from the routine delivery of legal threats that shuts down sites today.
Right. This is right up there with posts requesting kiddie pr0n. Such an obvious trap is laughabel, even thought it often snares the clueless. ya want a copy? Poll the newsgroups, maybe it'll get anonymously posted. But then you're probably not interested ingetting the program, right? I gots me copy! Nyaaaaa!!!
Well, the replies on livid-dev are just starting. As of right now, not much is known. According to Derek's most recent message, it "potentially violates the Copyright, Designs & Patents Act 1988; Sectiond 296(1) and (2)". You can keep up with the discussion if you want at http://livid.on .openprojects.net/pipermail/livid-dev/1999-Novembe r/, which is the archive for the livid-dev mailing list.
Also, to get your own copy of the code, do the following for bash (*csh people, export your variables properly with setenv instead :)
--
Jeremy Katz
Please! No one cares if he should happen to misspell a word. (Except you, apparently.)
Understand that not every soul on this planet can write perfect English. (Including a rather large part of the population with English as their native language.)
Also, very few people go through every word of every letter they write with a dictionary.
I doubt that every letter you've ever written are in perfect English either.
Information does not become less valuable because one word is misspelled.
/.Mattsson - My native language is not English, so please don't whine over linguistic errors. (That's lame anyway...)
The pointer to the response it hardly official. I WOULD like to see more information regarding who is claiming trademark infringement. Sounds like a slashdot email effect should be launched. Linux needs DVD, unfortionatly, it appears that the DVD guys don't think they need Linux.. :-(
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
From the posted items, it appears the infringement claims may be based on either copyright or patents or both, and that the jurisdiction may be European. As I'm also not a lawyer, the following information may be highly irrelevant, though I hope it's illuminating.
First, it's not clear that there are legal grounds to pull the plug an an entire website based on alleged but not (at least publicly) specified infringemnt. If nothing else, ISPs may face significant backlash risks for violating common carrier covenants to provide equal service to all without prejudice. My reading of the US DMCA (Millenium Copyright Act) is that protection against copyright infringment on the part of customers is offered in return for a clarification of common-carrier status, and liability limitations. This is US law and doesn't apply in the UK, but a similar legal tradition exists there.
Second, there is precedent under US law of a similar type of reverse engineering in the case of either Sega v. Accolade or Atari v. Nintendo (I don't recall which, and it may have been another, but these are the two major cases in the area, and the subject was gaming). The basic premise was that the defendant's hardware require both reverse engineering of software to allow cartridges to run on it, and a literal copying of some small portion (14 bytes?) of code was required by the security or authentication mechanism of the console, including, IIRC, an encoded trademark. These were held to have functional, not expressive, attributes, and the defendents won in both cases.
I suspect a bit of bluster here, and while I wouldn't run for shelter in the information I've provided, I might look to it for some ideas for defense.
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
Saw the mention about them going after Slashdot and I immediately thought, "For what reason?" but then I thought, "Hey, let's give them a reason!" We all know that Rob doesn't censor Slashdot, hopefully removing him from liability. What if someone, say an Anonymous Coward (or in this case, Hero) were to post the source code for the entire project to Slashdot? Would Rob be liable?
If it worked, you'd have a great source that potentially couldn't be attacked anymore than an anonymous post to a newsgroup.
One of the problems with DVD-Video in general is that it hasn't been patented. If it were, the spec would be in the public domain and all of this discussion would be pointless except for trying to decide just how much of a royalty each of the original developer of DVD would be getting when for-profit copies of open source DVD software was sold.
If you look at the DVD Fourm's licensing non-disclosure agreement you will find that it is quite restrictive. Mainly this is because DVD hasn't been patented, but instead they are persuing a course of protected under trade secret laws. If you spill the beans then your will be roasted alive.
The Linux DVD folks are trying to get a DVD-Video player working, and right now the knowlede is being spread by osmosis or some other very painfully slow process. About half of the group has signed the DVD Forum's agreement, and the other half are busy trying to hack at DVD trying to understand how it works. The folks who know DVD are saying "yeah, you are close" or "the specs for that part of DVD are actually ISO 13818-3" or something like that to give them a hand.
Eventually all of the information regarding DVD-Video will be made, one way or another, public knowledge. Unfortunately there won't be an open source DVD player until this happens.
Maybe this would be a good project for the new Red Hat Center for Open Source to take under its wing? I mean, if this guy needs financial help, and possibly sound legal help to fend off the industry, perhaps RHAT could get some good pr.
"shop smart:shop s-mart" ash
i recomend distributing the source files to bbs's as well. this is now an internet world and they would overlook bbs's today.
Schaumburg, Illinois. :)
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
Sounds like a great idea to me. I'd definately give a few dollars away to defend people against big business.
Well, there's my vote.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
I'm not a lawyer, but why not sue the ISP for shutting down your site? If i owned a business and someone claimed i was in copyright violation, that's between the company and me. I'm sure the ISP could be sued for loss of business or something.
One thing that I don't understand about this and the MP3 controversy is the approach of attacking members of a large community that is cohesive. Attacking a Linux developer is just not a good idea, since it will alienate that company or industry from a large segment of the user-base that is interested in the product. I generally buy albums that I have heard music from. Since commercial radio sucks hard, I generally don't get exposed to much music any more, but I like it when friends can send me an MP3 to listen to. If I like a couple of songs, I'll go out and buy the album. However, if the industry pisses me off by trying to prevent that from happening (which will ultimately fail unless some form of hardware encryption is necessary to play the music, in which case, it's not going to be very popular anyways since the additional cost is simply passed directly to the consumer), I won't buy it; I'd rather just ask that friend to rip the whole album for me, or let me rip it.
The movie/music industry may lose some money from illegal distribution of media, but that's not new to DVD or MP3 copying. How many bootleg albums and videos are sold throughout the world?
---------The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
I'm not sure I understand why they (the entertainment industry) has their shorts all in a bundle over this. Surely they new that at least some people would be knock off DVDs via a redigitalization of the analog signal? Sure, it isn't as high quality and the seconday channels are lost, but aren't they already subject to piracy galore with VCRs? And yet they make money hand over fist on VCR rentals and sales. I am fully capable of copying videos at home, and yet most of my videotapes are purchased, pre-recorded videos.
Frankly, I think piracy should be regarded as competition. If you lower your price enough, people are simply not that tempted to pirate. I think most people would buy rather than pirate depending on price.
In shrink wrap software (which I hardly ever have to buy anymore, thank you FSF and Linus et.al.!), I would buy just about any title at $20 or less. I'll even go up to about $60 for something like Quicken (where's the Linux version, Intuit? -- BTW, I've sent them letters swearing that I'll not upgrade again until they make Linux version. What could any future version do that my current one can't?)
In movies, at an average price of $20, I seem to be content enough to buy them.
I can't help but be outraged, however, at the fact that DVDs, which cost them FAR less to make than videocassettes, are consistently more expensive! I have stuck with VCRs for now because of that (well, and because I expect HDTV to be the "must" for upgrade to DVD -- why get a DVD and feed it to my 24-inch academy ratio 3-inch mono speaker TV?).
I guess I'm saying it should be a linear programming problem to compute the price at which they get the most money rating rate of sale against rate of piracy. I don't care how much technology they throw at it. If it can be viewed, it can be copied somehow, even if it's sampling the voltages at the CRT! Give it up. Keep it open and make it cheap. People will pay then.
Late st news
---
Someone sells this DVD car.
And there is really no other alternative quality wise to this DVD car.
The VHS car is outdated.
Fine. I buy a DVD car.
I take it home, and it doesn't fit in my Linux garage.
I figure, no big deal. Lots of people have Linux garages. Someone will figure it out.
Specifications are available for $5000, I could figure out how to use it with the Linux.
But I only paid $20 each for my DVD cars.
No thanks, I'll wait for someone to figure it out.
I'll just park it outside for now.
Hey look, someone figured it out and posted how to do it.
Cool, Now I can use what I paid for in a reasonable manor.
What exactly were you complaining about?
YOU EEEDIOT! The word is "hoard", not "horde"! Try using a dictionary sometime (like Merriam-Webster's).
You MORON! That guy at least made some effort in order to learn foreign language. You obviously didn't move your ass and tried to learn his language, which makes you look like an eeediot.
Moron...
Grab it quick and pass it around.
Come on, everybody sing along!
"3.54562x10^5 copies of cssdvd.zip on the net, 3.54562x10^5 copies of cssdvd!
You take one down, pass it around, 3.54563x10^5 copies of cssdvd.zip on the net, 3.54563x10^5 copies...."
And even if it was done in the US, the prohibition against developping software to break copy protection/security DOESN'T TAKE EFFECT UNTIL NEXT YEAR! Now the DVD lawyer squad might have a case against Xing for not protecting their keys as was required by their signed NDA, but certainly have no case against the freeware authors. This is just punishment through litigation as the little guy can't even afford to "win" a lawsuit backed by Big Corporate Deep Pockets. Bottom line, the proverbial genie is out of the bottle. Thanks to the WORLD-WIDE internet, there will ALWAYS be a copy of DeCSS floating about FOR ALL ETERNITY. HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! Now if you want to develop a DVD player for Linux, build the whole thing minus the crypto, but leave the hooks in place, so if a user...um... happens to have the decrypt code, he/she can just drop it in and play DVDs. And the player authors will have done no wrong!
now you have just proven to me that you are the dumbest mother fucker on the face of this planet. The "American Way?" What way is that? It use to be to throw Africans into chains and force them to work the white mans fields. Now it's becoming to rip off the poor and tell them lies because you believe you are better than them. You are pathetic. By the way, you can't stop open-source. It's the same thing as free speach. If you don't like it don't use it. I'm not going to argue with you anymore because I don't like to argue with hard headed, ignorant people.
I don't agree that progress is the enemy of profits. I think it is more along the lines of the decisions people make in hopes of making profits that can impede progress in specific areas. I wouldn't say that progress and profits in a basic philisophical form oppose each other.
As individuals we have control over what we spend our money on and therefore have power over profits. Use that power.
Your password has expired, please login to change it.
Okay, the American Way is where everybody has a chance to advance themselves and win the American Dream. That applies to Microsoft too, they have to be given a fair chance. But Open-Source is not fair to Microsoft. But don't get me wrong, most Open-Source is just crap anyway, but some of it is good and when people can get it for free .. duh!!! They are going to use it and not pay Microsoft for Microsoft software. Is that fair?? Most of you Open-Source whiners complained about Microsoft "dumping" internet explorer and killing off Netscape. Why aren't you complaining about Open-Source dumping its open-Source software?? It's the same thing, and your hurting Microsoft, and that is wrong, wrong, WRONG. If you think you will be allowed to spit in the face of the most innovative company history has ever produced, you are wrong.
I have posted a letter of protest at:
http://www.mrjoy.com/protest.html
It needs work, and I don't know where it needs to get sent, but that information *will* be added as I get it. Suggestions welcome!
Jon Frisby, Sr. Software Engineer,
Personal Site (MrJoy.com)
MrJoy.com -- Because coding is FUN!
the reason they will never look at piracy as competition, is the reason they try to put their competition out of business. good capitalistic system, all companies naturally try to be monopolies, so they can make the most $$$.
*elevator music plays*
I think everybody saw this coming, it shouldn't be a suprise at all. I'm not sure what the outcome will be. The danger is that the content scrambling system for DVD was leaked. Anything derived from that is contaminated so the efforts to rewrite it were useless. The only way to create a legal implementation of something is via either reverse engineering or cleanroom techniques (or licensing, but that was out of the question in this case). This may mean that there can never be a GPL'd DVD decoder, the onus would be on the license holder to prove that they never saw the leaked technology. This may be difficult.
What some smart vendor should do at this point is create a Linux DVD driver, the time is probably right to make a lot of money (selling the only Linux compatible DVD solution) with a minimal effort.
1) How about someone compile a list of ISP's
that shut down content then ask question later?
We can then BOYCOT these ISP's..
2) Boycott DVD - it's region coded, it's proprietry
it's not required - bring back VideoCD's!
- they play rough, we play rougher, and if
no one buys, they ain't getting crap!
3) Take the DVD development underground - just like how legalities forced drugs/cracks/etc underground - ie. legalities won't stop it, just make them go under tables
Remeber, It is easy to sit here and posts gripes about this sort of thing, but it is up to YOU to stand-up up and say this is WRONG. You must always stand up for our rights. WE must rise up as a whole in order to teach the courts what technology is about. WE are many, WE are a driving force. WE CAN make a difference. I don't want my children living in a world where expressing intelligence make you suspect. YOU have a responsability to the world. They say knowledge is power, but we control the power. Companies will die without us. If you work for a company that does this sort of thing you must tell them that they're wrong. Yes I know there is a risk, I know you may lose you're job, but you can always find another job.Try regaining a freedom, THATs difficult. TrouserSnake
So true. So sad. Some industries are REALLY Pirhanas... The art industry (movie, music) is, I think, one of the worst
You all are a tad premature. All the page says at the moment is that his page has been removed because someone
(no names mentioned) had it removed because it violated a supposed copyright.
No mention of being sued personally. No mention of lawyers involved. (Yet).
Lets see how this develops before we start screaming about lawyers.
Sol
I think you meant "Entertainment". Not that the "Art" community doesn't have it's problems, but it is certainly very distinct.
Dear DVD-Forum, Good, sue your demographic. I guess I really didn't need to drop $2K getting my home DVD ready. Spoooon!
I'm confused by something in regards to DVD decryption. How does ANY software do DVD decryption? Do they ALL need to request to have a key? How are 'new' keys added? As they are all burnt on the disk itself, it doesn;t seem like it would be 'easy' to simply add more keys to the stack. Isn;t this a long term problem, as more companies want to USE DVD?
Are they basically locking in a limited number of companies from producing decoder boards, based on the FINITE number of keys available, even if ther already is 'space' keys for such a purpose such as future expantion?
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
> Like the guys who wrote HLE, like the guys who cracked NT SP4's "security", the DeCSS guys are going to be pounded until they are forced to disappear or by some miracle are cleared.
And the irony is, the movie industry will end up suppressing access by the honest people who would have ended up buying DVDs to play under alternative OSes. But the crooks who want to make massive bootleg issues undoubtedly already have the code, and won't have it posted on a web site where it's easily spotted and stamped on. The pirates will thrive, but sales won't be increased.
They would have been better off not using encryption in the first place.
--
It's October 6th. Where's W2K? Over the horizon again, eh?
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Just send a letter to (-the-people-who-accused-this-guys-) saying that you are the real DVD Cracker. Put a copy of the sources on your website with your name appened in the sources as contributor and let it be downloaded.
They could have a lot of money, but they just cannot afford 10000 trials in 50 different countries.... And they must know who's accused (accused?? is this correct?? sorry) first.
I don't have any homepage, but i'm ready to open one for this cause.
==
That's the time harvesters,that's the time to be care
get back all this people, so ostentatious and arrogant.
==
That's the time harvesters,that's the time to be care
get back all this people, so ostentatious and arrogan
It's your own damned fault. Treat customers like cattle, and they're going to respond like this. Treat us with a little respect, release some linux sources (or a binary) for a DVD player, and we'd all be much, much happier. Oh, well. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
- A.P.
--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
I have an idea, let's sue the people who are trying to give DVD a wider range of viewers. Bullshit
We need make our displeasure known using peaceful and legal means. I can't over-emphasize that. Beyond that we need to work out a strategy, and get the Linux businesses involved in supporting legal defense. Sit down now, think about what you can do, and do it today. Tell reporters. Call your congressman. Picket a video store if you can't think of anything else!
Thanks
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
I'm pretty sure that's a UK law (I don't know where Derek is located) so if you're searching for more information, check the .uk sites first.
:)
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, programmer, or even a smart guy.
... I have to imagine it's not a free standard. Most likely, the DVD Forum (previously the DVD consortium) has a patent or copyright on the way that DVD's utilize this system.
Now, it's my understanding that to read DVD's, you must utilize their encryption/decryption key system. Now, not knowing which system they use
It could be that the only way a Linux DVD player could exist would be to write code that works with this patented system. You can either license it, or steal it. This may lead the Forum to believe that there is only one way to write code to work with their system, so it MUST be a copyright violation.
God forbid another programmer can do the same thing you paid millions for without using your code. *shrug*
Anyway, I'm sure they have enough to completely ruin the lives of anyone that doesn't follow their rules or license their technology.
I've been a long time DVD supporter and my continued support will be directly effected by how the DVD Forum handles this situation.
The first one is about the legality of reverse engineering. I was surprised to not seeing any comment about it in /. Lets not be mistaken, this is completely different of getting reference code (such as in the MP3 case). In some countries reverse engineering is explicitly prohibited. Many manufacturers put clauses of usage in their licenses stating that the owner of the device is not allowed to reverse engineer it. I dont know the situation in Sweden, or any specific country for that matter.
There is one thing that is not as discussed as it should, and is the legal defense funds for the OSS developers. Legal advice can be quite expensive. I remember all the fuss over MIDI sequencers months ago. Their work is legal - everyone is entitled to write their own interpretation of someone else's music - but it takes a lot of lawyers to prove it. The industry has enough money to pay the best lawyers, and they to their job very well. Its very easy to take out a web page - just a call from the lawyer frightens the ISP. OSS advocates should take steps to have the same weapons on their side.
Also I read about someone else complaining that the protection was very weak, and it was easy to break. Fine - if your front door is unlocked it does not make legal to steal your home. This is not a legal defense. However, what could we do to stop it? Maybe the OSS community can come up with a strong mechanism to replace the current one. I'm sure it can be done. There is no point in keeping the algorithm secret - it can be always reverse engineered. The design of a really strong protection mechanism could be done by an OSS team, and it could be offered to the standards body. It could be the best 'proof of goodwill'.
This leads us to another point - the reason to do it. It's a tool to watch DVD movies in a Linux box, or it's a tool to generate copies of DVDs? The Internet community (and some /. readers) must bear in mind that this protection is fundamental for the entertainment industry. We would have no Star Wars Trilogy without it :-) As someone else said, in this case it's better to have protected content than to have NO content.
There is also a lot of smaller issues that aren't clear at all. Patents, rights of distribution, and so on. All of this must be cleared. It will be much better for the Internet community to solve this in the legal arena, so we can keep doing what we do best.
sorry but i have to say that even after such public test, thing can't be considered secure. it can be considered just "not hacked yet".
it's almost same like proving application is without error - we can't do that so we run test and then we say "we did not found bug for now".
remember article about MS Windows 2000 security test site? remember "our" arguments against MS claiming "nobody cracked our box so w2k are secure"?
however i agree that allowing public to review the product is the best thing author/creator can do to test correctness/validity/robustness/whatever of the thing (of course after proper desing and review by himself :).
hany
This is a perfect example of the linux community demanding everything to be free, and when something is stolen/reverse engineered they cry foul. This guy had a great idea to develop a freeware player/decoder but he did it the wrong way. Play by the rules or burn. Better luck next time...
Nice flamebait. :) I hope you're not serious. Nobody who can count past five actually thinks algorithms should be okay to patent. As long as they didn't release the source code to anybody elses software then of course it's okay to write their own and release it to anybody they want. Just because you can't do something, doesn't mean other people shouldn't. Subversive kids.. :)
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
~/css$ CVSROOT=:pserver:anonymous@cvs.on.openprojects.net :/cvs/livid cvs login t :/cvs/livid cvs -z3 co -r Ver-0_9 css-auth
(Logging in to anonymous@cvs.on.openprojects.net)
CVS password:
~/css$ CVSROOT=:pserver:anonymous@cvs.on.openprojects.ne
cvs server: Updating css-auth
U css-auth/COPYING
U css-auth/Makefile
U css-auth/README
U css-auth/css-auth.c
U css-auth/css-auth.h
U css-auth/css-cat.c
U css-auth/css-descramble.c
U css-auth/css-descramble.h
U css-auth/dvdinfo.c
U css-auth/reset.c
U css-auth/tstdvd.c
Any Legal Eagles out there have any idea if legal actions have in the past been able to get pee out of a swimming pool?
Praise the Force Field! Praise the Laser Project! Slackware Loon #19830573
I don't like the fact that ISP's are so trigger-happy at shutting a site down at the command of the first person that sends a threatening mail, be it on behalf of a company or not, without checking if the alleged accusations are true. When they are in doubt, they just shut a site down.
Why do i find this irritating? It removes the possibility for the site-owner to say: "okay, you think i'm violating the law? sue me."
The way ISP's behave now bully's will always achieve their goal because the people who are willing to stand up for their rights are taken away the opportunity to do so. Even if the content of a certain site was violating a law, the offended party should take it up with the owner of the site, and not the ISP who is merely responsable for the network connection.
Actually, two I suppose.
1) Everyone, get a copy of the source. If you can legally serve it up (meaning no patent issues on the encryption) do it. Basically, spread the information so far and wide that it's useless to go after anyone, because it would take more money than even the entertainment inductry has.
2) Figure out how to start a good legal defense fund. DVD on Linux would be a Good Thing.
This said, I do have a few issues with the people who cracked the decryption. Making it possible to save the unencrypted movie on a hard disk was unnecessary and uncalled for. It's possible to rite a player without that capability, and that's what they should have done, at least at first. Were they trying to get into trouble by writing that capability into their software right off the bat?
And yes, I know it's Open-Source, so someone else could easily have written software to copy the DVD movie. But the people who cracked the decryption shouldn't have been the ones to do that, if only as a gesture of goodwill towards the industry. The capability would always be there for someone who wants to do it, and the original hackers come out of it looking at least tolerable to the indistry.
Both sides are in the wrong this time, albeit in different ways. But I'm sticking by the hackers, who are wrong only by virtue of a rather shortsighted design mistake, rather than the industry which, which is wrong due to undue technophobia, a healthy dose of greed, and the inability to see that copying DVD's to another DVD is pointless since a single DVD-RAM disk costs more than most DVD movies. It's cheaper just to buy it legitimately, so piracy is pretty much pointless.
Except, I suppose, for potentially wrecking the idiotic "tiered-release" schedule the entertainment industry uses. But that's no big loss.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
But i don't remember how Linux is getting dragged into this argument. I don't recall hearing the the hackers were breaking the DVD's codes simply to be able to watch DVD's in Linux. They were doing it in order to show the futility of DVD's copy-protection scheme.
All of you that are dragging Linux into this are really doing something bad for Linux. You need to be careful, lest if become regarded as the "renegade" OS... "Linux users don't respect intellectual property, look what they did to DVD." I'm not saying that, but it could be said in a boardroom somewhere.
I really don't think that the movie industry singled out Linux when thinking of copy-protection schemes... They were just more concerned with Windows users, because, face it, that's where the primary market is. Most industry publications have Linux relegated to the server closet, and just recently has it's head started to pop out. It would have happened had more and more people started using Linux on the client side.
But that's a separate argument. The fact remains (in me view) that Linux was not involved, it was simply people demonstrating that after all their hard work, the copyprotection scheme used by the movie people was flawed.
I believe in the US, at least till next year, they have every right to publish it...
AS far as we know, this protection mechanism is neither patented, nor legaly protected in any other way. Reverse engineering for interoperability is quite legal, as the SAMBA team has shown us.
Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
Well, actually IDG.
The article just mentions that a hacker group released software that would decrypt almost and DVD disk. At least it also mentioned Linux.
Of course, there is a strong quote from Sony that they support "content protection". Like they would ever want to allow copies of there movie/music.
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
Richard von Weizs
Hmmm - it worked for me earlier today with a blank password...
Well, actually IDG.
The article just mentions that a hacker group released software that would decrypt almost any DVD disk. At least it also mentioned Linux.
Of course, there is a strong quote from Sony that they support "content protection". Like they would ever want to allow copies of there movie/music.
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
Richard von Weizs
We need make our displeasure known using peaceful and legal means
To make our displeasure known is not enough. We need to know and remember who did what. We need, basically, a database that knows that on such-and-such date such-and-such firm threatened/sued/shut down a programmer/group/site because of this-and-that. In this way people in position to pressure the offending organization will know if it needs pressuring (and, for example, has a history of hostility towards, say, MP3s).
Of course, there will have to be a significant threshold to cross before some action gets into such database. We don't want script kiddie complaints that their ISP shut them off for trying random 'spoits to end up in there.
And yes, I understand that it is likely to end up being known as "The Slashdot Black List".
Kaa
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
GOOD! DVD was a closed, proprietary encryption method. Nobody has any right to publish it.
Lessee... Maybe it was copyrighted? No, likely not, there is "fair use" doctrine, and all that. Maybe it was patented? No, because that would mean it was already published. So it must have been a trade secret, and that basically means that the company relies on its own security to keep it secret. Coca-Cola's recipe is neither copyrighted, nor patented. If you found it out (without breaking any laws) and published it on the Web, there is not much that Coca-Cola can do.
In any case, as far as I understand, this has nothing to do with the encryption method. Basically, there is a fixed list of passwords (around 400, I believe) any of which will unlock the DVD movie. All the guys did was to crack some of these passwords. And I don't think that publishing, say, some idiot's root password on the net is illegal...
Kaa
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
Grab it here, rolled in .ZIP format for easy use.
www.geocities/SiliconValley/Port/3 224
Grab it quick and pass it around.
YOU EEEDIOT! The word is "hoard", not "horde"! Try using a dictionary sometime (like Merriam-Webster's).
Main Entry: horde : a political subdivision of central Asian nomads b : a people or tribe of nomadic life : a teeming crowd or throng : SWARM
Pronunciation: 'hOrd, 'hord
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, G, & Polish; Middle French & German, from Polish horda, from Ukrainian dialect gorda, alteration of Ukrainian orda, from Old Russian, from Turkic orda, ordu khan's residence
Date: 1555
1 a
2
synonym see CROWD
Main Entry: 2hoard : to lay up a hoard of : to keep (as one's thoughts) to oneself : to lay up a hoard
Date: before 12th century
transitive senses
1
2
intransitive senses
- hoarder noun
So much information, so little wisdom...
The connection was not being refused because of authentication, but because the server was busy. Sorry.
The "cue the foo posts in 3, 2, 1..." posts will commence with no subsequent foo posts in 3, 2, 1...
Leaving the key under the mat is also a bad idea
Letting amateurs implement crypto doesn't work so well either
But the worst mistake is to alienate a whole bunch of smart people who understand locks by selling them horses but not letting them ride them
In the future if you are basing a business on the use of large secret numbers you had better use really big ones .... and maybe not leave them around where people can find them
There's something I think I'm missing here. The DVD people are upset because now that the source is released people can copy DVD movies, correct? But, the thing I don't understand is.. why would we need to decrypt ANYTHING on a DVD disk to make a copy of it? Couldn't you just copy a "raw image" of the DVD to a blank DVD and allow the players handle the decryption? Is there a hardware layer that prevents raw reading of DVD movies or something?
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconVal ley/Port/3224
Get it quick and pass it around.
GOOD! DVD was a closed, proprietary encryption method. Nobody has any right to publish it. These kids are gonna get the book thrown at them. They deserve it. I wonder, however, if there's any way they'll be able to pay even a fraction of what the settlement is. I hope their pay is docked for the rest of their lives. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. Stupid kids...
$ cvs login (Logging in to anonymous@cvs.on.openprojects.net) CVS password: cvs [login aborted]: connect to cvs.on.openprojects.net:2401 failed: Connection refused $
The "cue the foo posts in 3, 2, 1..." posts will commence with no subsequent foo posts in 3, 2, 1...
In terms of what the ISP can do with the site,
the terms and conditions of use say that they
are allowed to disable it if they feel like it.
But see below.
I've just had been supplied with information on
the relavent bit of the Act, and it's seems to
be about circumventing copy protection mechamisms.
I'm supprised we have such lunacy in our Law.
Thus that page may well fall foul of English Law.
So don't bother the ISP, they are taking a
reasonable course of action.
I guess I basically need to visit a Solicitor
on Monday.
Derek Fawcus
Someone moderate Derek's post up a bit!
-------------------- Standard disclaimer.
Address the issue - not pass laws to try to make it disappear. I just had a lengthy discussion with somebody this afternoon about what "legal" means. Legal doesn't mean anything. You need to address the issue - ie: why did I kill you? instead of passing a law saying it's wrong. The latter will not stop me. Education will. Which one is the cheap solution, and which one is the best solution? I'll let you be the judge
Besides... the movie industry knew how important it was to make this format secure, and they blew it. If I entrusted billions of dollars into something on the premise that somebody wouldn't do it because it's illegal... that ought to be a shooting offense.
--
I never found anywhere on the cover/DVD, nor did I ever sign anything when I bought it, that said I can only 'read' the data on this DVD with a licensed DVD player (be it hardware or software). Since its my DVD, shouldnt I be able to manipulate my software/hardware as I see fit for my own personal use? After all..I bought this copy for myself...
In this, I dont see how 'I' broke any rules, since I own my DVD. now simply 's/I/Original Author/g' and you'll see my view on everything.
Can someone tell me if this point of view is wrong or not?
-----
If Bill Gates had a nickel for every time Windows crashed...
This is a great idea. Why do I never get moderator points when I need them?
I have a definition of legal: "That which has not been made illegal". As usual, the law rarely states explicitly what is "legal" to do (US Bill of Rights being a unique exception). However, books are replete with laws stating explicitly what you CANNOT do, with detailed ranges of punishments all spelled out in black and white. So I say is something is not defined to be "illegal" then it is legal. Is it Right? Is it Moral? Those are additional questions unrelated to "Is is legal?" e.g., cops here in San Dimas grabbed a guy who was videotaping pre-teen kids in their swimwear at a local water park and snapping photos of their crotch area. All this was done from outsire the park grounds with telephoto lenses. The videos and pictures were then sold. Cops found they could do nothing to him since the pictures contained no nudity and because it's not illegal to photograph people in public areas (otherwise the entire news media would be out of a job). So they had to let him go.
The Digital Millennium Copyright Act President Clinton signed into law (which outlaws defeating region coding and macrovision among other things) in the USA doesn't take effect until next year. So it is therefore not illegal to do NOW.
Why do they always take down websites in such cases, even when it is not even proven yet that it is ilegal. Sounds like execution without trial to me. When It was indeed reverse engineered in Europe they don't stand a chance, to get the programmer convicted.
296 Devices designed to circumvent copy-protection
(1) This section applies where copies of a copyright work are issued to the public, by or with the licence of the copyright owner, in an electronic form which is copy-protected.
(2) The person issuing the copies to the public has the same rights against a person who, knowing or having reason to believe that it will be used to make infringing copies-
(a) makes, imports, sells or lets for hire, offers or exposes for sale or hire, or advertises for sale or hire, any device or means specifically designed or adapted to circumvent the form of copy-protection employed, or
(b) publishes information intended to enable or assist persons to circumvent that form of copy-protection, as a copyright owner has in respect of an infringement of copyright.
[(2A) Where the copies being issued to the public as mentioned in subsection (1) are copies of a computer program, subsection (2) applies as if for the words "or advertises for sale or hire" there were substituted "advertises for sale or hire or possesses in the course of a business.]
Nick
-- "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park" - Jim Moran
Yes, this is correct, reverse engineering is allowed in Norway.
It's not like this practice of pricing the new technology higher than the existing more-expensive to produce product is a new thing. Look at the difference between casettes and CD's. Which do you think takes longer and costs more to make. I'll give you a hint, it isn't the piece of tinfoil between the two pieces of plastic.
"Legal actions have already started to happen against the programmers who wrote the DVD-CSS decription routines. This page contains the official response by the programmer..."
Who exactly is Derek Fawcus? How does he fit into the picture? Other stories about the cracking of the DSS talked about Norwegian programmers being responsible, but from what I've read so far on this page, Derek is in Britain (Norwegian abroad perhaps?). Why is Derek getting the heat, or is he the first of many? What can we do to help him since it appears that he has got himself in to trouble for helping us (sort of!)?
BTW, I think that people should stop worrying about the source code not being available. It's been out there some time, and many people will already have copies ready for reposting.
There is no point to shut down the programmers site. The Linux community will start spreading the drivers across the net anyways. Watch and learn. One couldn't of stopped mp3 players, and now DVD recorders sadly. If they can't play them, hell they'll get both play and record to file if you can't provide a driver!
A smarter strategy is to immediately provide a binary playing driver (the encryption part only being in unreadable binary) under linux with your vendors and request that the full open source be removed. Most people would follow through and would minimize the problem.
Its stupid to think that shutting down one site will do anything. Everybody in Linux-dom is laughing at this because its provoking many people to spread the drivers... and alot of people simply do not care one way or the other being disgruntled as they are.
I would of bought a DVD player if it had a linux driver.. am sure a lot of people would of too..
The people who make these decisions have no idea of what will happen in the coming months with DVD from the linux community at large if they don't support Linux and keep saying.. "we are GOING TO give DVD drivers.." like a broken record.
I predict DVD record files are going to surface and the movie industry is going to be fuming. It may not be as common as mp3 but will eventually lead to millions.. Programmers will even build recorders.. get the point?
Why? because all that stupidity not to provide a few simple partially binary drivers to work under Linux. Linux has REALLY smart people. nothing can be encrypted. there is always a leak. Its smarter to play politics with the linux community and provide the drivers and go after the few that do it, rather than to adopt a prohibition style approach that will fail.
So get your head out of your ass and do something intelligent to protect your investment and make some money out of by providing your OEMS more customers.
--A linux observer.
moviebone has a good take on this whole thing. Read the article here:
http://www.moviebone.com/arti cles/1999/11/crypto.html
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
I can choose to only see those articles that other readers moderated to my threshold (and by doing so demonstrate my trust in their opinions), or I can choose to see everything.
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Laziness on the part of the reader doesn't constitute censorship by
I can choose not to read even-numbered pages in my newspaper, but that doesn't mean it's being censored by the sub-ed who lays out the articles.
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