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Tax Software for Linux?
Bob Cunningham asks: "Is there any US Federal and State Income Tax software for Linux? Normlly, I would just snag the evaluation copy of whichever Win9x product appeals to me (i.e., lowest cost). This year I'd like to try something different: Do my taxes under Linux. My initial searches have failed to uncover a single native tax package for Linux, nor even rumors of any related development being underway. Right now, it seems my only option will be to run a Win9x package under Wine, and hope it is well behaved. Is Win9x/Wine my only option? If so, are there any packages that have already been tested under Wine?" Financial software has traditionally been lacking under Linux, but I'm hoping that someone will soon step up and write something like this.
How hard could it be to write your on
software to do that? Bunch of calculations,
and the rules are all in the public domain.
No, I've never heard of such a thing, but I'll see how tough it is via my father the tax accountant. Can't see how it'd be very difficult execpt that tax laws change every year.
you could try to run some tax software w/VMware. I find that Wine "misbehaves" on too many pieces of software... Maybe tryout VMware if there aren't any other alternatives...
Aren't there some spreadsheet based versions that could be converted to run under the Star Office package?
As for how hard is it to whip one up? You must file the EZ form. I went to software two years when I found that trying to manually balance a couple of businesses and consulting and profit sharing generated 50 pages of paper to be filed. I have enough problems understanding all the clauses without having to figure out all the lines that don't apply to me. The other problem is IRS approved forms printout but I guess some of that can be handled by grabbing the PDFs from the IRS website. The software is nice since I can make a rough pass to get the initial bottom line and then dig for deductions to try to bring it back to a realistic number.
Here in Brazil, there's only one IR tax package - not surprisingly, the government-sanctioned package that only runs on Windows. Thankfully, they've recently put up an online version as well.
To the editors: your English is as bad as your Perl. Please go back to grade school.
PTax98 is a first stab at tax software for Linux. You must have Perl/Tk installed in order to use it. Note this is alpha software, and is not recommended for doing actual tax returns. PTax98 computes the 1998 Federal 1040EZ. No other tax form is supported at present. You enter the data into the blanks and check a few buttons, and it computes your taxes. It doesn't do the Earned Income Credit yet; you can compute that by hand and enter it if you qualify. It does not produce printed output, you must copy the results to an official IRS form.
...but I was a happy Windows-free Linux/BSD geek at home (keeping only a DOS partition for gaming), but buckled under and installed a Windows partition 2 years ago for the sole purpose of running Tax software. Today I'd look into WINE or other alternatives, but of course the Windows virus has festered on that machine, and going back would not be easy (and my wife would divorce me).
The bang for the buck offered by these programs is unbeatable, and I've never seen any comparable software for Unix.
- Stephan.
Carpe diem!
If this is to be a free software project, which most Linux software packages are, it would need CPAs on its staff, arguably 53 of them (50 states, Puerto Rico, US Virgin Islands, federal) in order for the project to stay up-to-date. I have found precisely one Linux tax project, PTax98, and it only partially does federal 1040EZ. My suggestions:
I apologize if my libertarian tendencies are thinly veiled.
*** Proven iconoclast, aspiring epicurean ***
Is it difficult? How much time an average person must spend with the form? An average geek? Moderate this down (-1, Invent-the-reason-why)
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Industrial space for lease in Flatlandia.
It might be interesting to write a piece of crossplatform software that can do everything needed to process taxes and a program to generate the data files w/ this years rules and such. If that is publiclly available IMO it'd be good to contact your congress man to try to get a law passed stating the IRS had to provide the data files themselves as their electric filing plan wasted so much of our money and bombed (the big project, they did luckily make some small improvments).. also if you could email them in I'd be glad. I always lose envelopes and papers I'm supposed to fax before they make it there. :)
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
No!!! Anything but that. We just can't start taxing free software. How would such a system be implemented. In my opinion this would be the sharp downfall of all progress that has been made in the Linux / Open Source Community!
Last year I used www.webturbotax.com. It's a web/java based version of TurboTax by Intuit.
Last year it was free if you didn't want to file electronically. You went through the program with your browser, and when you were done, you download a .pdf file with your completed forms already filled out, complete with all the relevant attachments.
I of course filed electronically, which was (I think) $19.95. It was a deal for me.
Some guy named Chris
The Linux operating system is new to some individuals. Some are people who would not mind writing many of the business applications that are out for other OS's. I personally would not mind writing or help in writing the software for a tax program specifically for Linux. If an individual really would like to have any particular software and not have to write it, they should go to software forums to see if it has already been done.
I thought Linux was an OS for hackers, nerds, and others alike who want a system they can mold to their liking and not be afraid to write what they don't have for it.
Tax software is not really as popular and likely to readily written as device drivers, games, or utilities would be. Give it time and your post here is a good start at finding what you want.
abstraction is 2 keep the weak from knowing the truth. show your source code && always seek the knowledge within
I used it last year. No buying software, no installation, just click and file your returns online for about $20 :)
the rules are not in the public domain. Stallman has asked repeatedly not to use those terms.
The IRS code is GPLed, if not confusing , and of course the same code does not seem to apply to the same people.
I think the tax code is more like the IRS Public License, which means "We set the rules, change the code, so don't base any products on what we say"
Definitely go with one of the web-based solutions if you have to do it under Linux.
.
.but that would be heresy!
Of course they aren't as full featured as some of the software for other platforms. .
. .
Last year we (wife and I) did our taxes via the online Quicken Tax. It worked great, and explained a lot of the really hard things quite nicely.
Though we did it using IE on a Win95 machine, I don't recall there being any ActiveX controls, maybe a little Java/JavaScripting, and Cookies too (I think)...
Chris Means
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Sigs are bad for your health.
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Give a hand, not a hand-out.
I believe that one of the main reasons that we have not seen much good financial software for Linux is the commercial cost factor. Traditionally, good financial software cost an arm and a leg, and the companies who developed it made good money out of doing so. I think a lot of these companies have been scared off by the 'Free' aspect of Linux and not wanted to go to all the effort of porting / developing software with no solid financial reward on the table. Another prohibiting factor is the fact that almost all countries that I know of have different tax / accounting laws, meaning that developers have to write multiple versions or you need more developers in more countries working on this. The Gimp works everywhere. Most accounting packages only work in their country of origin.
There are some good WWW-based tax programs that are pretty good. Most work with Linux's browsers. Last year I used http://www.securetax.com/
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Fro9m what I've seen round here, many of the folks here were not born yet or too young to have had to endure this piece of crap :) Consider yourselves lucky!
Also consider yourself lucky that tv now plays comercials every 10 minutes or so, back then we had to endure shitty shows for a good 30 minutes before a comercial came on. Then, we could walk 10 miles in the snow (uphill [both ways]) to use the outhouse and hurry back (in 60 seconds) to resume watching TV. (AND WE LIKED IT!)
Fish! LipHo
Change the tax laws!
Ideally, we just get rid of them all.
'Impossible!', you say?
'The gov't need funding for *!', you say?
'No one would volunteer time or money to secure the blessings of liberty!', you say?
I say, 'Look at free software.'
Besides, the gov't could also raise revenue by charging per service. 'Simple' example: Notary services. The validation of contracts is an essential service that should be provided by our government. All credit activities (not just credit cards) are contract based. (M)|(B)|(Tr)illions of dollars move around on the basis of credit daily; it is an economic necessity. By charging for credit contract security as a ratio of the dollar amount, the government could surely raise enough revenue to perform its necessary functions. This would also discourage frivolous credit use by consumers.
Live free or die.
If we had some variant of the Hong Kong flat tax, there would be less of a need for this software (though of course we need accounting software)
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Open source tax software is doable, but only with the right team. Here's the structure. The app is *real* generic, with very little data in the binary. Forms and rules live in datafiles (maybe XML), while data for a single instance of a form lives in it's own file. Build the app first and make it bullet proof.
Bazaar-mode comes into play with the data files. The key is, as stated in a previous post, testing the rules. This is where bazaar-mode shines, with lots of eyes looking at lots of pet test cases. But these eyes have to belong to folks who know what they're looking at (CPA's, preparers, maybe even auditors). The forms and rules have to be set up so that non-developers can make changes and sumbit fixes. Project leadership has to be able to turn around releases in nanosececonds. Time presure with tax software is real, and deadlines (April 15) are hard.
My bet is that independent professional accountants who do a moderate number of returns for clients would be the people to particpate in/benfit from a project like this the most. The question is "How do we get them on board?"
BTW, I work on a financial reporting product *very* similar to tax software, so I have pondered getting this package into an open-source model for some time. My company is not ready to take the plunge yet. But if another company, or just a group of hackers can make a project like this work, I believe it would set the stage for many other projects/products to move to Linux.
I am not your blowing wind, I am the lightning.
It is? Awesome! I hereby announce my intention to take the tax code and fork a new project off it. I think I can convince quite a few folks to join up. :-)
I'll start by adding in a contribution to the ``poor coders' relief fund''. This will neither increase your tax nor decrease your refund, of course. :-)
What about running the DOS emulator under Linux? My dad, whom is (was) an accountent, runs ALOT of DOS based Tax software.
Also what about vmware? I heard that it is ALOT more stable then Wine. Truefully I think even the Wine developers consider Wine alpha or beta quality. No disrespect to the Wine community, I totally support, respect and honor their efforts in this project. The fact reminds, they still need to work a couple things out with it, and I think that they would even admit that, so it's not like I am bad mouthing of FUDing them, I am just saying...
Anyway, what is the deal, you guys can do a little book keeping without a computer. Do your taxes like a man, a peice of paper and a pen. No dam calucators either, get a bit of scrap papper, you dam lazy wusses : ) just ripping on ya... I get a discount for getting my taxes do. Have someone else do em dammit : )
"`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'" -THHGTTG
Granted, doing your taxes should be a simple matter for a spreadsheet. However, unless you file the EZ form the glut of rules and exceptions that a software package must account for is unbelievable. Several issues exist for anyone trying to write a software package, that lead me to believe no one will ever develop one for an open source OS unless they expect large volume sales. Notably: 1. By the IRS's own admission even their own telephone support personnel give frequently incorrect information. 2. The need to account for the literaly thousands of tax code changes every year. 3. People like Quicken maintain an extensive staff of CPAs and tax attorneys to assist in writing the rules for the software. 4. Liability. Commercial tax firms guarantee the correctness of your return (assuming you have correctly and accurately entered all of the relevant data), and will pay all penalties a customer incurs if its found their software made a mistake. How hard can it be? The problem isn't the complexity of the software, its the complexity of our tax system.
TurboTax 98 works with WINE-991031. I don't know about TurboTax 99.
I think we should anyway. I think we should tax all software for Linux by 20%
:-)
I'm not sure if you mean have the IRS write the software, or just make a common set of "data files" available with whatever variations in taxes from year to year represented. If you want them to spend your tax money developing software, you're still paying for it one way or the other.
Personally, I'd rather get my tax software from a company motivated by profit. Things tend to be done a lot better than when we ask the government to do it for us.
But if you used it to do your taxes, you did register it, right?
Right?
If you need tax software to fill out the EZ form, then there is definitely something wrong with you.
--Ivan, weenie NT4 user: bite me!
--weenie NT4 user: bite me!
"Computers are nothing but a perfect illusion of order" -- Iggy Pop
Do a search on the LeTax project... we had a presentation at CFUG back in June by one of the developers.... I wish I could get you the URL for the project right now, but my notes from that meeting are at home and I'm at work....
This is my opinion and my opinion only. Incidentally, IANAL.
MOO;IANAL.
There used to be a picture linked here.
I used Web Turbotax under Windows. When I attempted to use it with Netscape on Linux, it blocked me for not using a browser on an appropriate OS. I didn't pursue setting up a proxy to pass a fake Win32 user agent. I suspect it function properly. They didn't do anything too crazy.. it seemed to be straight HTML, safe javascript and AWT Java applets.
I'm going to try a bit (a bit) harder this time and see how it goes, out of curiosity.
Of course, Web Turbotax means placing your tax info, including worksheets and calculations, on Intuit's servers. Privacy sentimentalists probably won't go for that, so a locally-executed tax package for *nix--or pure Java--still probably has a niche.
Not sure this would work well as a Free Software project, though. The research involved and the complexity of a lot of the rules might be prohibitive, especially given the undiminished amount of effort that would have to go into updates every subsequent year. To say nothing of the horror of getting the state tax forms taken care of.
I humbly suggest that the core logic of such a project be done as a set of javabeans without the aid of a relational database, so that standalone, web, client-server and other interfaces can be built on top of it, and make it comfortably cross-platform. The Unix/Linux community probably doesn't have enough programming-literate tax accountants to get this done. If it's platform-independent, there would be a better chance of something like this coming together.
With the current XML revolution, it should be possible for the IRS to come up with an XML variant to define the flow and structure of tax forms. I'd think that with a bit of work, they could set it up so that all you need to do your taxes would be an XML-enabled web browser.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Trust someone who is not an accountant to write Tax Software? the big problem here is that accountants and the consultants that help these companies write these products are Windows creatures. I would however think that one of these companies would write a linux/bsd version (maybe use Twine to compile it? make it easy for them?) just to capture this part of the market. But I'm sure it wouldn't be free, or even close to GPL'd =)
-- FreeBSD - The Power to Serve NetBSD - of course it runs NetBSD OpenBSD - Armed to the Gills Three tools in our
I think you can reduce the complexity by an order of magnitude by only covering the Federal tax. I don't know how other states are, but here in NY, I use TurboTax to fill out the Federal tax, and then just copy the numbers over to the state form by hand. About 80% of the state form is, "now, copy the figure from line 92a on the Federal form to this box..."
When it comes down to it, the REAL advantage of using Income Tax software is the ability to file electronicaly! I've done this the last couple of years, and it greatly speeds up how fast you get your return!
Your Servant, B. Baggins
Well how about Java based software, like Moneydance (doesn't do taxes, but handles other aspects of personal finance pretty well) That way the software author needn't stress about writing the package over and over for different platforms.
and writing a bazaar-based tax package for the FEDS and one for each state, and getting them APPROVED by both the FEDS and each state EACH year prior to Jan 1 would be a monunmental task. It would require efforts from a team of programmers that would number over 50 (the tax packages of states with low populations are just as complicated as those from large population states and would require an equal programming effort). The would have time for coding this and NOTHING ELSE the entire year (so they better make money to feed their spouse and kids). So, would you make a FED program only or add only a few of the states with the larger populations? This isn't a "one size fits all" app.
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
I am the author of that PTax98 script. Yes, I know it does just one tax form which you could easily do by hand.
But I wrote it as a demonstration. Remember the first tax programs for DOS? They were shareware programs; they didn't contain every form and schedule, just the most common ones; they didn't print something the IRS would accept, so you copied the output onto your IRS form. But they were still a great improvement over doing taxes by hand, and they led to the fancy commercial programs available now for certain other OS's.
A tax form is an algorithm already! It's not so hard to turn it into code. And we don't have to clone TurboTax on the first try; a simpler program could still be useful for lots of people. If a GUI is too much to write, how about a command-line script? You can look at PTax to see how to generate those tax tables without typing them all in -- tax rates are piecewise linear, with roundoffs, that's all.
I'm not a "real" programmer. PTax was my first Perl/Tk script. And I don't have time to do a big project on my own. But I'd love to contribute what I can to the cause. Anybody want a great open souce software project?
How much do people value their time?
Come tax time every year, you see a multitude of people spending at least a dozen hours working on their taxes. Computer software or not, filing your own taxes takes a lot of time.
My solution? Simply find a public accounting firm, drop off your records, pay them a small fee, and you're done. I don't know how much TurboTax costs but in my part of the world, people are only charged $CDN 200 - 500 for a personal tax return.
No hassle, no worries. A few hundred dollars is easily worth it to me, when the other alternative is spending a couple weeks on it. (To say nothing about how much more fun it would be to do your own taxes should you be self-employed and/or incorporated and/or run a small to medium sized business.)
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If a tree falls on an anonymous coward yelling 'first post' in the forest, does anybody hear?
I was able to use Kiplinger Tax Cut under WINE for my 1998 tax return. Although some controls may be a little skewed the package worked pretty much as advertised.
It does it all; printed tax return (as a P.D.F. file), electronic returns (both federal and state). It is free to use it, but you have to pay about $15 to print it out. But the electronic filing is then no extra charge.
Oh, oh - I just looked at their web page, and they have been bought by Intuit. So I don't know what it will be like this year. The last two years it has been superb.
Could GNU cash be extended with tax specific functionality in a similar way to Quicken's tax package?
According to http://www.gnucash.org (an excellent site) there is a scheme-based API for writing extensions to the package. Possibly this could allow for modules for specific tax systems...
I've recently installed v1.3 and found it easy enough for a non-financially-aware geek like me to get organised pretty quickly. Excellent for personal finance, but probably not in the race for professional requirements just yet.
You know they call 'em fingers but I've never seen 'em fing. Oh, there they go.
Uh, actually I think that some tax software (Turbo Tax?) was among the most purchased software last year in the US. You mean "popular" in the sense of "technically interesting or challenging," I suppose. Tax software may not be glamorous, but it is a surefire way to attract millions of users, at least in the US. There are a couple of posts here by folks who specifically loaded Windows (or Wine, VMWare, etc.) in order to run Tax Software. It is one of those killer categories for US businesses and consultants. I don't know whether there is such a need in other parts of the world, but it would be a major contribution to the cause.
The Norton Anthology of English Literature, 4th Ed., Vol 2
Two G's, if you were wondering.
Tax free software at 200% of the cost.
the taxman is happy, because he is making twice what it cost you rather than some silly low percentage.
You're happy because it's still free (0 x 200% is still 0).
Everybody wins!
I think you are only talking about individual income tax solutions, right?
For enterprise level income tax software, BSI had ported their BSI Tax Factory to Linux.
http://www.bsihq.com/
It doesn't help those of us who just want to print out a 1040, but it might be of use to some of the IT profesionals out their that are trying to push Linux into their enterprise environments.
lobby congress to have only the top 1% of the population's income taxed. Then just create a 4-5% national sales tax. I can't speak for everyone, but I wouldn't mind replacing income tax with a national sales tax. Here in VA we pay only 4.5% sales tax compared to states like CA which pay around 7% I believe.
The narrow timeframe for getting this done every year means an effort to do this successfully would require a way of making contribution to the rulesets very easy and accessible to as many tax experts as possible.
I like a post somewhere down there that proposes XML-based rulesets. It lets fragments be broken off easily and worked on independently. It lets non-programmers contrinbute in a way that doesn't require double entry when logic is added. It offers a tree sturcuture that can follow the section numbering of the tax codes themselves. Use XML elements for expressing labels, instructions and field specs. Use Xlink to point to field and rule dependencies, and use ECMAscript for the math and much of the logic.
I have provided software consulting services for 20 years to account firms and have written a federal income tax program that ran on a Z-80 machine with 4 KB RAM. So things are possible, if you recognize certain limitations. First, government approval is not required for a US federal or state tax program, other than if it prints forms. If the program prints ONTO forms rather than prins the forms themselves, no approval is needed.
Second, many fairly high quality tax packages are available in MS-DOS format. These are not usually consumer programs, but we have used them successfully in office environments where Win32 was incompatible, such as with OS/2. Drake requires a 386, DOS 3.3, and 256 KB of available RAM! Rock Creek/Universal Tax Systems has both DOS and Win32 versions, and the the versions can share the same data files. Kiplinger Taxcut is a Win16 program (with a Win32 installer, but it is just a self-extracting ZIP) that runs on OS/2 if you have the Arial font installed; I have no idea about WINE compatibility. But DOS programs should generally work under DOSEMU.
Several people have suggested using one of the many on-line preparation services. Kiplinger has already been mentioned, as has SecureTax which has been purchased by Intuit and merged with Web TurboTax.
If I were Joe Legislator, I'd pass a law to do the following things:
1. Government must design, build and test the tax software package.
2. The tax software must run on a standard Web browser, or it must run on a freely available operating system, such as BSD or Linux. (This would jibe well with the DOJ's antitrust case against the Great Satan.)
3. Those citizens filing electronic returns must use the tax software. All other tax packages would be banned and outlawed.
Anyway, if the IRS designs the tax forms, why can't they write the software? Again, my tiny ...bloop... fish-brain is ...bloop... overloaded by thees and need air an I cant rite wursh a darn mush longr Mush reetrn oceean or drownsh...
All this gets me to thinking, why doesn't the IRS offer the forms in XML or some standard format? The already write instructions and forms in english, how hard would it be for them to hire a few programmers to convert the forms into XML. Then open source and commercial programs can use the same set of data from which to produce their app.
Not long ago, Quicken stated that they have no plans to port their products to Linux. The reason: Quicken had very few requests for their products to run under Linux.
An interesting assesment.
And in a way, right.
The 'fairness' I'm talking about is that which would eliminate loopholes in the law.
True fairness in taxes would be for citizens to pay for services they receive. For example: I drive to work, so I would pay for road maintenence service. Everyone pays for the service that the armed forces provide in terms of national protection... etc etc.
Of course this invokes a knee jerk reaction from most people claiming that it's not fair. The reason for that is simple.
The 'fairness' that most people talk about is that the rich should pay more in taxes than the poor do.
How is that fair?
In terms of services provided, I would argue that the poor get far more value from government ( in terms of value received vs. taxes paid ) than the rich or middle class do.
Why should people who succeed be penalized? Why should I be forced into making charitable donations to various government programs? By making those with more money pay more than those with less money, we are rewarding those who do not work as hard, and punishing those who do.
*That* is backwards.
By using a tax system where people pay for the services that they truly receive, and where people have the *option* of giving charitable donations to government ( or private! ) programs, we eliminate the immoral extortion of money from those that have succeeded financially.
Of course this is considered to be *really* radical, so as a compromise I usually promote the flat sales tax system. There those still pay more for the same service, but it's less blatant, and less open to corruption than the progressive tax we have now.
It boils down to the fact that I don't blindly accept the assumption that people with more money should pay more than people with less money for the same service.
To the extent possible, we treat governments as we would buisnesses. When taxes are raised, ask 'Where is the increase in value that I will receive?' or 'Wouldn't this be better handled privately?'
Then again, some think I'm completely insane.
ebw
Looks like they finally fixed it. The flash pages work just fine under Linux (with the right plugin of course). ;-)
I can either make my mother do it (an accoutant) or just file a 1040EZ. :-) I love taxes!
The only solution to our growing software needs for Linux is to take 5 minutes to mail any software company that produces a product you are interested in and tell them politely that you'd be interested in a Linux version!
/. effect for thousands of products out there! I bet we'd have mucho more software out there for us Linux/Home users!
I always do it! Done it with Altavista's free web thing! Done it with GVC's modem software that comes with modem! Done it with Canon for their printer software! And lots of others I can't remember!
Now of course, if we are only a handful to do that, we'll probably have to wait for the next millenium before getting anything!
So, please consider doing this!
Imagine a
In short, the total cost in time and money is probably higher than the benefit you get from the more full-featured application.
Despite what Microsoft wants you to think, the total cost of ownership of Windows can easily become higher than that of Linux.
Cheers,
Vovida, OS VoIP
Beer recipe: free! #Source
Cold pints: $2 #Product
For a second there I though the subject was whether to tax linux software!
"You mean the whole time Darth Vader was such a badass, it was because he missed his mother?"
...is very complex.
I work for a company that produces tax (and accounting) software for practicing accountants (Not schmucks like us). And we employ HUNDREDS of programmers, HUNDREDS of CPAs, and all the rest of the people who go into making software a "product". (caveat: we also do 1065s, 1120s, and a whole boatload of smaller entity types).
On top of the need for vast amounts of (relatively low skilled) programmer hours, most of all the calculation work is simply "not fun". You certainly would never want to code it to challenge yourself. Tax calculation also is very fragmented from state to state, and it is very difficult to share code across state functional units. This is not to say that you don't need highly skilled "architects" to bring things together into a common platform, or deal with things like state to state transfers, etc.
And when you're all done. Get ready to do it again next year.
All that said, you could make the project a lot easier by eliminating states, removing things like passive calculations, at risk limitations, AMT, etc. But at that point, I would recommend just pringing the forms out (they are available in PDF format from the various taxing authorities), and filling them out yourself.
I guess the main thing I am getting at is that the problem that is being solved doesn't lend itself to the open source design philosophy.
Pax -- Ob
I've been using Quicktax with WINE for years now and have always gotten a large return.
Seriously though, everything works nicely. The only problem I had was printing since I don't own a printer. So I saved the file, emailed it to my mom (she got a printer:) and printed my return from there.
ayottesoftware.com
It's more frequently than that. I used to work for a place whose contracts administrator was a CPA that did tax work on the side. The IRS sent him a BOX (not some measly little envelope) of changes to the tax code at least every quarter. This amounted to, usually, hundreds of pages that he had to replace in his tax manuals. (And I used to complain about the 1-2 dozen pages of corrections to the DEC manuals that I'd get from time to time.)
I'd truly hate to be writing tax software. Talk about trying to hit a moving target.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
A good part of this discussion reminds me of that "Time Magazine/Amazon.com" issue discussed a few days ago. The average understanding was that journalists are in general pretty ignorant on tech matters. Fair, you were in your element, they weren't.
Now I see lots of people posting their views on how a tax system should work. While I support free speech, I must point out that:This is way off topic, the guy is asking about what software is available for Linux.
Most opinions on taxation (calling for regressive consumption-based taxes) seem to be as well informed as the average CNN reporter's on how to configure a firewall.
For those of you interested in what are the goals and consequences of a tax system, I suggest this book. There are a many others, but this one is not U.S. intensive.
As for the guy asking about what software there would be, I don't know of any, but I strongly advice him not to rely on anything that is not liable, it may not be worth the savings.
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"People ask FAQs all the time". - David Allen
Last year, I used the Siag spreadsheet from the free Siag Office suite to prepare my taxes on my NetBSD machine. I coded Form 1040 and Schedule A. It was't too hard. Write to me if you want a copy to use at your own risk.
What a stupid, typical hacker trivialization, as though everything doable in SW revolved around being a 'brilliant arteest'. No wonder business people think programmers are drooling childish idiots. I suppose you think it's a couple of forms and a few lines of what if else code splashed together.
One of my customers develops tax software and has a software platform for that purpose. It is a full time job requiring a dozen programmer/analysts to encode every stinking states' tax code for every new year. (Yes, not only do you have the federal return to deal with but also some 40+ state tax returns.) Every form, every attachment, every conditional rule, every cross referenced calculation *MUST* be covered or nobody will buy the stuff.
But, it's not a game or Linux internals, so writing tax SW is for LaMeRz, right?
Two years ago, Intuit's TurboTax wouldn't run under Windows NT4.0 -- you know, the OS that has enough password protection to keep even MY kids out of my records? I can't imagine what UI feature they were trying to make use of that tied them to Win95, or what QA process let it out without the ability to run under NT and import data from Quicken.
So, if it was that messed up (last year was better), I could see it being a problem to port to any other OS or toolkit.
Well, apparently, you only have to fool the majority of people for a little while.
Seems like a good idea. XML has lots of corporate backing, so getting the government to start using it may only be a matter of time.
This whole patent/copyright/licensing issue has finally gone too far! There is NO WAY that anyone could possibly justify placing a tax on linux software!
Here's the problem that faces Intuit.
1) 90% of everybody uses Windows.
2) People who use Windows will pay for software. (They paid for Windows - DUH)
3) Intuit is out to make money.
4) They've made a small mint running their stuff under Windows. Ever try to get a rich person to change his/her mind? If the formula they have didn't work, they wouldn't be rich. And, unless you're richer, it's obvious that YOUR formula doesn't work.
The only way Intuit is going to come up with a Linux version is if they can do so while still paying their expensive lawyers and tax accountants.
Why couldn't they set up a java-based web site, or https or something?
That way you can service anything with a browser!
If I was to write accounting or tax software, this is how I'd do it - forget the operating system all together!
Start small, like Intuit did. Get a PERSONAL checkbook manager that's easy, exports to quicken easily, on a web-site. Make it slick, secure, and free. (make money on ads or something)
Promote the SHIT out of it. Then, when you have a goodly number of regulars, build from there.
"How do you eat a horse?" - "One bite at a time!"
-Ben (e-mail @ bens@saber.net)
Furthermore, if you can use the EZ, you can probably use the 1040TEL (to be eligible basically, the address the IRS has must be correct and you must be otherwise eligible to use the EZ). Using a touch-tone phone, you enter the raw data (the correct lines from W-2s and 1099s). It does all the rest (such as that is - even adding up all the lines from your 7 W-2s from that string of different pizza delivary jobs -- oh I forgot you also can't use 1040TEL if you have more than 10 W-2s). Then, if you get a refund, enter your checking account info. You'll get a direct deposit within two weeks in my experience (less than a week in my case). This year it even did my state taxes too. All is free of charge, so if you can use it, for Pete's sake don't give somebody $20 just to get your refund a week faster unless Guido the Enforcer is about to kneecap you for debts to the mob. For all the flak the IRS may (often deservedly) get, here's an example of a good system that works well.
You have to wonder how long it will be before the IRS puts up a website to be 1040WEB.
Second point: No only are the EZ forms trivial to do, the other common forms are also fairly easy. "What?!" you say. "I have stocks, children, a house, and take a farm subsidy for not growing pinto beans. [I'd pay more in taxes to drastically reduce the number pinto beans I might encounter in my lifetime...] I have to file a zillion forms and it takes forever." But what takes forever is not the forms per se. It's the step before filling out the forms: knowing what income, withholdings, expenses, etc. are applicable in what ways. Tax software can be of little more assistance with that stage of things than the IRS instruction book that comes with the form - other than providing the same instructions in a differently presented manner.
The hard part is still hard, even with software! The less-hard part is, in fact, easy -- with or without software.
Of course, if you are a salaried employee you can just quit your gripping! Go take a look at the filing requirements for the self-employed. And be grateful you only have to file a couple of forms once a year!
--
Disclaimer: I'm a programmer, not a tax professional. I'm speaking only from my own experience and recollections with my taxes and those of my parents (who are self-employeed and bitterly resent that I can use 1040TEL - heehee).
Madness takes its toll. Exact change please.
***************
Apologies to all non-US citizens for the following personal libertarian rant (but actually, come to think of it this will probably apply to you as well).
****************
Why should the rich guy pay more than the poor guy for governance? Does the government provide more `service` to the rich guy? In fact, irrespective of my being rich or poor, I must may extra when I *do* require more government service than the average person--I have to date paid $693 in form fees concerning my wife's immigration, and odds are we won't be in the U.S. for long anyway.
That I earn a dollar, that I buy a Bowie CD at the local CD shop, that I own a truck and park it in Connecticut, that I invested wisely, are all irrelevant bases for taxation.
Indeed, the government has certain constitutional obligations, which requires some degree of funding. Only if these expenses are split evenly amongst all citizens, say over the age of 17 (or whatever age one can be expected to make a sound decision about where on this planet to live), will we have a truly equitable tax system. Balancing that which the poor man can be reasonably expected to afford with that which the government would like to spend money on would likely teach the government to function within its means. A finite income sure tends to curb my lifestyle (that and hangovers).
Does the rich guy pay more for cable than the poor guy? Is the rich guy's life more valuable than the poor guy's, that he should be paying more for the `common defense` defending our border against those vicious Canadian hordes?
People have come to think of `progressive` as if it were necessarily positive. I disagree, particularly when applied to taxation.
And now, to bring the rant back on topic, the program for THIS tax policy can be run on the command line:
perl -e 'print "\$500\n";'
---------
Once in a while you get shown the light,
---------
Once in a while you get shown the light,
In the strangest of places, when you look at it right -
Jerry explained that to write tax software and get it approved each year for all states and for the fed'rul boys would be a syssiphisian (sorry, sp.) task.
... ahem! ... not as fair or simple as they ought to be.
...
He's right!
This is a good reason to be in favor of massive, radical revision of the tax code -- that is, the fact that it is so complicated that converting it to an electronic form is impossible without such a huge team.
Some magazine (Fortune? Money? Forbes) used to show each year how even tax *professionals* don't understand (or, nicer, "have different interpretations of") the tax code they deal with for a living. They would send identical (hypothetical) tax informtion, like income, investments, capitcal gains, various deductions, marital status, etc., and get wildy different results in some cases from their various test-cases.
I read an interesting book a little while ago, the title of which I think was "Why we must abolish the Income Tax and the IRS." The proposal in this book (which I agree with, as I have not seen any better ideas) was for a national sales tax. I like this idea as it is egalitarian (earn more, spend more, pay more tax; earn less, spend less, pay less tax) and encourages investment rather than short-term purchases. I don't want to get into a discussion of what sort of taxes are fairest, as that's sort of like what sort of cancer is nicest to die from, but
I think most Americans and most people in other places in the world too would agree that taxes are
So that's it
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
The rich stay rich because government guns protect their stuff.
The rich (generally) get rich through creating or investing in government-chartered corporations (and many of the most profitable of these corporations rake in hauge contracts or other forms of welfare from the government), or through government-created ownership of land, natural resources, and "intellectual property" (patents and copyrights).
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
As a geek and CPA (I much prefer the geek part), I have read articles in accounting/tax publications this year that discuss the plusses and minuses of an accounting firm's migration to Windows 95 from DOS or Win 3.1.
I am not surprised that there is a lack of *nix finance-oriented software, based on what is considered state-of-the-art by a large portion of the profession.
~
~
One thing to think about is if you buy windows solely so you can run tax software under it to do your taxes, then it should be countable as expenses related to tax preparation and as such deductable.
Seems to me an algorithmic description of the tax code from the source, in some kind of flowchart or well-defined, precise language, would be preferable to the tax code. It would force some real thought about what the code really means, to treat it as a function/system of functions with a specific set of inputs. This would make it more open to real mathematical analysis.
Of course, the exceptions/loopholes are all there for a purpose, and I suppose the ambiguous parts are as well, since it's not the legislature's goal to make this easy to understand and apply.
An algorithmic tax code could easily be downloaded and applied to personal data year by year, without a redevelopment of formulae.
Last year, I found two web tax sites and filed my taxes over the web. This required the then-current Netscape. For tax planning, well, we're not there yet. But for tax filing, I did it on Linux last year. _Deirdre
On the surface, writing tax software seems like only an extension of basic financial calculations. Unfortunately it is not that easy.
The base forms are easy, but when you add the supplimental forms which embody tax incentives and loopholes, and wording that requires interpretation, you've just created the entire tax service industry: from the corporate tax attorney to Sheila at H&R Block.
Personally, I would not trust software created by a group of developers. This would need to be designed by a group of CPAs, Tax Experts, and Lawyers and only then implemented by developers.
The IRS says they are now kinder and gentler, but the vast power still held to freeze assets and lock accounts without 3rd party overside still makes this an agency with which you should not deal lightly.
I wrote my own form last years taxes and but it on Slashdot. I plan on doing the same this year. It's called "TaxPatch" because it just patches the Postscript files the IRS puts out. I wouldn't mind some help if anyone's interested... Rick Niles. niles@bellatlantic.net
Why couldn't they set up a Java based website
hey, why not setup a java based program and skip OS incompatibilities altogether?
That way you can service anything with a browser! sounds exactly like what they're doing at FNCentral.com....And everything (all that stuff in Quicken you pay Intuit for) up to the point of preparing and filing your taxes is free.
Start small, like Intuit did. Get a PERSONAL checkbook manager that's easy, exports to quicken easily, on a web-site. Make it slick, secure, and free. (make money on ads or something)
Sounds like Moneydance, now or GNUcash, six months from now.
(Intuit: and you expect us to write you a Linux port?
Me: No you fuchwitz dinosaur, I EXPECT YOU TO DIE!!)
Stud Zeppelin wrote with some info about states' tax policies, specifically about those with no income tax or a very simple one (RI).
...
Add Tennesee to that list of states without a state income tax. THe current governor, who ran on a "No State Income Tax" platform, is not all-a-sudden enlightened otherwise, and is fighting for one in that state, which (to my pleasure) appears to be harming his political health. I think there is some property tax, or maybe it's on interest, but it's not an income tax
(My dad lives there, I don't, but this info gathered from a road trip through Tennesee several weeks ago.)
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
Intuit (Turbo Tax), has a web-based version of their software. Use it on whatever platform you want!
In addition, as an insider on their electronic remote vulnerability assessment, I can tell you that they looked very clean and responded to every problem brought to their attention quite quickly, so you know they are making a positive effort towards security.
The web site is here.
I have used Drake Tax software in a dos shell. It worked fine for all 1040 schedules and forms as well as for corporate and partnership returns. The only thing I haven't done with it is electronic filing.
With all the conditionals, you almost end up with the Satisfiability problem (Cook, 1971) - 2^n possibilities to test. Thus, writing this sort of software not only requires CPA's, but excellent programmers and a fair whack of CPU time to test it.
There are a few things that free software is going to do first I think.
Don't like my sig? I don't either.
This is really the best answer, as they've done all the legwork already. Here's what I'd like to see:
1. Make the online filing site OS-neutral (easy)
2. Port Quicken, TurboTax, QuickBooks to Linux (a little harder.)
3. Consider opening the source! (Expecting a bit much from Intuit here)
Seriously, with everyone worried about what it would take to compete with MS, I don't know why anyone didn't mention Quicken on Linux earlier.
Does anyone know why Intuit _wouldn't_ want to port to Linux?
"You can't get something for nothing." - my grandfather, on the stock market and Reaganomics.
Regardless, I still love Slashdot moderation. Keeping the good posts on top and all the trash on the bottom makes reading much more enjoyable.
--Ivan, weenie NT4 user: bite me!
--weenie NT4 user: bite me!
"Computers are nothing but a perfect illusion of order" -- Iggy Pop
Which is to point of separating the tax rules/calculations out of the app, and making them modifiable by non-developers (ie. accountants). One of many points of the bazaar model is the its driven by the people who use the software making fixes and improvements. To make an open-source tax software project work, we must have programmers improving to app, and accountants improving the rules.
The Forms are available from the IRS in PFD format, so those can probably be used as is.
I am not your blowing wind, I am the lightning.
The 'fairness' that most people talk about is that the rich should pay more in taxes than the poor do.
How is that fair?
Because living expenses are constant.
Let's say it takes $10,000 to keep one person alive for a year. A single guy who earns $20,000 can afford $10,000 in taxes before he ends up on the street. A single guy who earns $100,000 can afford $80,000 in taxes before he's on the street.
Should the rich guy pay that much? Of course not, but the rich guy's complaining about not getting as many toys. The poor guy's complaining about not getting to live.
cheers,
sklein
Gee, It would seem to me if Corel is serious
about their linux future,The door is wide open
HINT HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gee, It would seem to me if Corel is serious
about their linux future,The door is wide open
nudge nudge wink wink
Still 1st reply to 42nd post!!! DON'T PANIC!!! PRRRLRLRLRLRL!!!
I should have mentioned the fact that webturbotax checks the user_agent in my post. I ran it through a proxy and claimed to be Netscape for Windows. I had no problems, other than having to enable Java, which I normally leave off because it's so flakey.
I do wish they wouldn't make us jump through hoops. Heck, if they would just write for a specific set of browsers, that would be great.
Maybe I don't know enough, but how hard can it be to make a robust, safe application that uses only the features of a specific browser (like Netscape) that are platform independant? It's a web page after all. I've developed several web applications, and forgone some of the more esoteric visuals to make it portable, because functionality was more critical than beauty.
Sorry, I got a little off topic...
Some guy named Chris
As long as you pick a mature baseline, say 4.08 or higher, or even better 4.51 or higher, making an app targeted to Netscape with HTML, its limited HTML extensions, Java and Javascript is going to need little if any work to run properly across all platforms.. Aged and anemic as the Netscape 4.x series is these days, it's admirably consistent across platforms. You have to push it to its limits and do some obscure things to run into a feature that doesn't work the same between Win32, MacOS and *nix.
Internet Explorer, on the other hand, is full of nifty functionality, but there are major points of divergence between the feature sets and behavior of the Win32, MacOS, and commercial-Unix versions of IE. It should be mentioned that the Solaris/HP-UX version of IE is more closely related to the Win32 version than the Mac version. For all intents and purposes, the Mac IE, while a nice browser, is a product unrelated to the WIndows browser of the same name.
It requires more legal work and interface design than any successful free software effort I can think of.
The software is regionally specific. Those Europeans who started efforts like Linux itself and KDE aren't necessarily going to be too useful writing U.S. tax code. Even within the U.S., we'd need 50 different versions, one per state.
The software has a very real deadline. If it's not on the shelf when people start getting their W-2s in January, it's an also-ran. Look at Debian and the Linux kernel for evidence of free software's stellar ability to meet deadlines. Just imagine, fiscal-year-1999 tax software programs show up not next January, not next April, but sometime in Q2 of 2001.
There is very real, very monetary accountability if some obvious mistake causes people to get arrested or fined for tax mistakes. "No warranty" clauses do not always hold up in court.
Of the people who suggest writing a Turbo Tax-alike for Linux, I ask: have you even used Turbo Tax? It comes with reams of tax documentation, an incredibly slick interface, video advice from actual tax consultants, and, last but not least, a very good reputation. Not all of that is strictly necessary for a working project, but don't expect a 3000-line Gnome-Tax hack to replace Turbo Tax any time soon.
www.latax.org i think.
when Push Comes to Shove
Hi Y'all... you might want to look at these various open source implementations for tax software.
;)
http://www.gldialtone.com/links.htm#opensource
Now you can all find something to contibute can't you
Rooster - A friend. "Anyone's friend in particular or just generally well disposed to people?"
As a former employee of Intuit, I can assure you that Intuit has NO plans for a port to Linux. Their last port of their Turbo Tax software for Windows was botched so bad in the Mac port it was absolutely ridiculous. I have spoken with their developers . They sneer at Linux ( sad, but true). There are 15 developers for the WIn apps, 3 for the Mac, and no plans to expand.Linux??? Ha hah, they simply aren't capable of being that foresighted.
"A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserve neither. " Ben Franklin
US Government regs are in the public domain in that there is no copyright on them. You can republish them all you want. This includes the Tax code.
Erlang Developer and podcaster
In a little while, try FreeMWare. It's a free, open-source alternative to VMWare developed by some of the same people as were working on Bochs. Right now I wouldn't try it because they are in the pre-alpha stage. Check back in about 6 months.
Kenneth
PS - I think that VMWare is put together well, making it almost worth the cost.