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Canada's Startup Visa Program

You're totally right. While the rest of the world is trying to attract the world's top talent, the US is actively hostile towards it. Trump seems to have missed the memo where these people generate wealth and jobs.

The H-1B visa was a mistake. Even in Canada, employers have to go through a lengthy Labour Market Impact Assessment process before they can hire a temporary foreign worker, and some companies have had their privileges to do so revoked because they misrepresented their case and made it look like Canadians weren't available to do the job. We also have tighter salary laws. Extreme sub-market wages hurt everyone in the end—including the company, which ends up with damaged morale, weakened culture, and subpar work caused by inadequate training.

It was news in Canada.

I'm sorry you don't read "international" news, but it's been a major topic for many years now.

Just like Free Trade and NAFTA were.

1. I believe you, but you are also not knowing the name of the thing you are talking about, and he can't find it on Google, so there's no evidence that it exists except for your memory of a news report of a couple of years ago. While Canadian news is often better (and is certainly funnier) than American news, that's like remembering the time a chimpanzee told you that your dog was up to something. Maybe you're right, but between the flying poop and the time that's passed chances are information got lost.

2. The closest treaty google pops up info about is this information sharing treaty, related to immigration and databases of people who come from neither country. http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/d...

3. International treaties are not necessarily (as a practical or legal matter) subject to the Canadian charter of rights and freedoms when being interpreted or implemented in the United States. In addition, in non self-executing treaties, domestic implementing law may differ from international treaty, and US courts tend to be hesitant to bring in international law, even though it is technically part of the law of the United States under something called the Charming Betsy doctrine.

Sure, it's easy to say they would take the tech workers. But would Canada gladly take the 10 million illegal immigrants who may not be as skilled? Those are the ones who really want to flee Trump.

I'm not sure how we'd react to the illegal immigrants, but we are inviting 25,000 Syrian refugees. Considering that Canada has a population of 35 million and you have ~320 million it's equivalent to you taking in about 225,000.

Canadian are still subject to the UK Queen

No. Canadians are now citizens, not subjects. Australians are citizens, not subjects. New Zealanders are citizens, not subjects. Even in the UK people are citizens, not subjects.

Here is what I read:

Microsoft is building a training center.
They will be training folks from Canada as well as folks from other countries.

Microsoft Obscuristan has a young person they would like to train so they send him to the Microsoft training center in Canada.

They are not bringing them here to sew shirts in a sweatshop (or any IT equivalant) they are bringing them here to train.

It is a net benefit to Canada. It has a net positive effect on jobs available to Canadians.

From:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/r...

They plan to double their current workforce by adding approximately 400 jobs. These positions will include paid internships for Canadian students and long-term employees.

This program will also bring international employees into 18-month (see note below) rotational training positions.

Note: Even though Microsoft’s Rotational Program is generally 18 months in duration, a 24-month work permit will be issued so that the employee may continue to perform Rotational Program job duties until they are transitioned by Microsoft into a new position elsewhere.
Extensions

No work permit extensions will be issued for this program.

As for the shortage, it's not that hard to find a person for a level 1 or 2 help desk, staging technician, etc. (it's still not that easy) It is a challenge and takes some time to recruit a level 3+ tech who can visit a site and design a system to improve their productivity or solve a data flow problem.

Our company pays $1,000 to anyone who refers an applicant for an advertised position. We probably pay a lot more to recruiting firms.

I'm surprised by how many Canadians misunderstand the temporary foreign worker program, despite the fact that it's been in the news so much for the past few months.

The TFW program is used for jobs that fail to entice existing Canadians, like agricultural work or fast-food service.

By comparison, it's quite common for tech companies to sponsor immigrants to Canada based on a lack of local skilled candidates (see http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/h...). In that case, my understanding is that the criteria are like a US H-1B visa, but the incoming employee is granted permanent residence (akin to a green card). Of course, in Canada's case, we actually want well-paid techies to come and stay.

I would say $200,00.00 is a good start

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/h...

I hear that the number of zeroes can make a big difference in such figures. Just sayin'...

I would say $200,00.00 is a good start

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/h...

This page states that there are no physicians anywhere in the State of Indiana who are qualified by Canada to perform the medical examination required of people entering Canada. This means I'd have to take a Greyhound motor coach to Chicago and back, somehow find a place to sleep, and figure out how to navigate Transit Chicago. (Or I'd have to go to driving school and buy a car.) What would be the best place for me to learn about these things? Would an employer in Ontario be willing to explain this, or should I seek help elsewhere?

Temporary: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/applications/work.asp
Permanent: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/apply.asp

It's not nearly as difficult as attempting the reverse. I don't think most Americans have the slightest idea just how stupid it has gotten, even if they went through the process themselves just a couple decades ago.

But the point was that there is a pretty good bet that the AC with the Bank of Montreal card was Canadian (or at least, not American). BMO does apparently have some US operations nowadays, but tends to use "BMO" instead of "Bank of Montreal" there.

Temporary: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/applications/work.asp
Permanent: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/apply.asp

It's not nearly as difficult as attempting the reverse. I don't think most Americans have the slightest idea just how stupid it has gotten, even if they went through the process themselves just a couple decades ago.

But the point was that there is a pretty good bet that the AC with the Bank of Montreal card was Canadian (or at least, not American). BMO does apparently have some US operations nowadays, but tends to use "BMO" instead of "Bank of Montreal" there.

Do you have any sources for this? Checking customs it seems that only convictions can be used for declaring somebody inadmissible. Not all convictions, only certain criminal ones apply. There are some loopholes around even felony convictions.

The only country that requires finger-prints is the US, as long as you stay out of the US you do not need fingerprints for traveling.

Many countries require fingerprints for entry. See, for example: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/biometrics-international.asp

And the above list is certainly not exhaustive. Malaysia fingerprints everyone. China has evidently recently started. etc. etc.

But often setting up your own company is allowed? I suppose it depends on what you mean by often; I certainly haven't done a survey of the world to find out who allows this and who doesn't. But the US? No, you'll get deported. Same for Canada (although Canada does have a startup visa process; see http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/business/start-up/eligibility.asp).

I don't know about the US, but in many countries, you don't have to be a citizen/resident of that country in order to set up a company there. You can quite legitimately start a UK Limited company, for example, without having ever been to the UK.

Of course, if you were actually doing "work" for that company from inside the UK, that could be considered employment, you could be breaching the conditions of a visitor visa.

I know a few americans working in Canada now. If you have a job offer apparently it's easy. Without you can still get a work permit if you can prove you have enough funds. The basics are: you need to prove a good skill set (generally a degree is the easiest way to prove that) and that you are broke and going to leach off the system.

Here's a self test to see if you are eligible to work in Canada. And more info on working in Canada.

Cost of living is pretty high though depending on area. The most desirable areas (e.g. Vancouver) have some of the highest living costs in the world (when compared to income). Think San Diego housing costs with slightly lower wages (one of my friends just moved to SD.. he said avg family home was slightly cheaper in SD, but something well renovated in a good area would be slightly more.. very comparable though). You can find cheap regions, but you have to like winter sports. Right now I have green grass and a house that costs twice the price of a comparable in an area with a foot of snow. In the US you can have warm and cheap depending on which state you are willing to live in.

Oh yeah.. income tax is higher. So that is part of why the medical fees appear low. You can try out your expected wage in this calc. Anyhow.. this is way off topic now. Feel free to email me (stephen at arcane innovations dot com) if you have any questions. If you are in software/engineering I can help with job searching resources (on the west coast at least).

I know a few americans working in Canada now. If you have a job offer apparently it's easy. Without you can still get a work permit if you can prove you have enough funds. The basics are: you need to prove a good skill set (generally a degree is the easiest way to prove that) and that you are broke and going to leach off the system.

Here's a self test to see if you are eligible to work in Canada. And more info on working in Canada.

Cost of living is pretty high though depending on area. The most desirable areas (e.g. Vancouver) have some of the highest living costs in the world (when compared to income). Think San Diego housing costs with slightly lower wages (one of my friends just moved to SD.. he said avg family home was slightly cheaper in SD, but something well renovated in a good area would be slightly more.. very comparable though). You can find cheap regions, but you have to like winter sports. Right now I have green grass and a house that costs twice the price of a comparable in an area with a foot of snow. In the US you can have warm and cheap depending on which state you are willing to live in.

Oh yeah.. income tax is higher. So that is part of why the medical fees appear low. You can try out your expected wage in this calc. Anyhow.. this is way off topic now. Feel free to email me (stephen at arcane innovations dot com) if you have any questions. If you are in software/engineering I can help with job searching resources (on the west coast at least).

Pretty sure you need a visa to go to Canada now. You cant just walk across the border.

Not yet. But it seems to be harder to get back into the U.S. than it used to be. It's interesting to see that it's possible to get back in with an "enhanced driver's license" now. I wonder if that's what Virginia is issuing.

You can check your eligibility at Citizenship and Immigration Canada. They even have a self-assessment test to see if you qualify as a Skilled Worker.

You can check your eligibility at Citizenship and Immigration Canada. They even have a self-assessment test to see if you qualify as a Skilled Worker.

Getting an H1-B requires paying more than the "prevailing wage" for the same occupation in the area of employment already. The trick is in enforcing that, and specifically dealing with all the creative ways of dodging that bullet. The way it's normally done is by tailoring the list of requirements for the position to one very specific candidate (H1-B, of course), at which point you can declare that no expert in just those skills could be found locally.

Anyway, there's more to it than pay. Keep in mind that H1-B and L1 are visas that are tied to a specific place of employment. If you get fired on either, you've got to start packing next day, without so much as an opportunity to seek a new job. Ditto if you decide to walk away, unless you have a job offer in your pocket beforehand, and even then you'll have to wait for your new employer to get you a new visa. Needless to say, this means that employees on those visas, especially those hailing from third world shitholes they have no intent to return to, don't have anywhere near the leverage that local workers have when negotiating their terms of employment, or even disputing obvious violations (like being paid for 40 hours, but worked for 60-80...). That's the real attractiveness of those visas for companies compared to hiring Americans, not so much "cheap labor" per se.

If you really want to fix this stuff, though, IMO, you should deal away with the whole "temporary worker" thing. Aside from applying filters to ensure that workforce migration is aimed primarily at job sectors where you have steady growth and hence actual need for more hands, admit only those people who have clearly expressed their intent to immigrate. Once they've had a well-paying job for a while and started to integrate, fast-track them for green cards, and eventually for citizenship - ideally with a hard well-defined schedule such that it's easy to plan (i.e., "if I come to U.S. for a job that pays $90k+, I'll have green card in two years, and citizenship in four"). And make it easy to change jobs while the process is ongoing, provided the other requirements (i.e. "prevailing wage" etc) are satisfied, without the need to leave the country during the transition.

Alternatively, look at how Canada does it. They also have this kind of system, where people come in to work on temp visas but then get fast-tracked permanent residency, but it's not a strictly federal program - instead, every province has its own, so that they can tailor it to their needs - each province defining its own list of "occupation shortages", for example, or pay requirements. And, naturally, provinces like Yukon tend to have more lenient requirements than, say, Ontario, to get more people to settle down in the less hospitable parts of the country. For a large country like U.S. or Canada, that makes more sense.

Canada is finally cracking down on fake immigrants. One of the biggest problems is the abuse of the immigrant investor program which this business apparently is trying to exploit, if you actually look at their web site:

About Rodolfo Martinez

I am the Executive Director of Ontario Immigrant Network, and currently we are working to connect newcomers to rural business succession opportunities.

In other words, "buy your way into the country by buying some dead persons' business."

Nice scam - too bad Mr. Martinez isn't licensed. The Canadian government has required licensing of anyone doing immigration consulting since 2004 because of the number of scams and abuses.

As of April 2004, the only immigration and citizenship consultants who will be recognized by the federal government department of Citizenship and Immigration Canada are those who are members in good standing of CSIC or lawyers who are members of a Canadian provincial or territorial law society.

I think you overestimate it by a tad. There's no flocking, just over a million immigrants a year. If you look at immigrants per year per head of population, the US comes in 31st. Just above most Western European countries, but way below Australia or Canada. Europe as a whole has a lot more immigrants per year than America does, and that includes Eastern Europe.

America hasn't been the promised land for a long time, and not that many people pick it out as the ideal place to live. It's just because American media doesn't cover any international news or events that Americans themselves don't realize this.

You're conflating two things - desirability as an immigration destination, and ease of immigration - and attributing both their effects to desirability as an immigration destination.

I'm only familiar with Canada so I'll use it as an example. It's a helluva lot easier to immigrate to Canada than to the U.S. When Hong Kong reverted to Chinese control, a lot of its residents tried to immigrate to the U.S., were declined, and immigrated to Canada instead which gladly accepted them. An immigration visa to Canada can be had in 1-3 years, and you can apply for Canadian citizenship after residing there just 3 years. Wait times for a green card in the U.S. are 4-5 years for favored countries, even longer for other countries. And you have to have lived in the U.S. for 5 years before you can apply for citizenship. The U.S. just makes it a lot harder to immigrate than other countries. Heck, it's a helluva lot easier just to get a tourist visa to Canada than to the U.S.

re: your sig: you can apply for Canadian citizenship here: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/index.asp

And other countries with universal health care are even further along. Somehow, Israel manages to provide universal health care AND have a competitive economy based on innovation. Germany, of course, does even better (and they're one of the most pro-labor, pro-union countries in the world). You go from country to country in northern Europe, and they're way ahead of the US. Why do you think Canada makes it so hard for Americans to immigrate there? Because we'd double their population overnight.

You know, although I largely sympathize with your conclusions, your facts are pretty much dead wrong, and thus your argument overall is nonsensical. Your whole post very much smacks of "the grass is greener on the other side."

I'm an American living in Canada. I've also had experience with the other direction (immigrating to the US from abroad). It is not hard for Americans to immigrate to Canada, and your belief that Americans would double Canada's population overnight is puzzling to say the least. The truth is Canada is desperate for more immigrants to shore up their service economy, especially in western Canada which is currently experiencing an oil boom. For the most part, the reason why Americans aren't immigrating to Canada is because they don't want to live in cold places, not because Canada keeps them out. (Some Americans, such as convicted felons (including DUI) and those with pre-existing health conditions, are barred from Canada, but not enough to affect the discussion.)

Canada uses a points system for immigration. Other avenues of immigration are possible, e.g. family sponsorship, but the points system is something you can use even with no sponsor. If you have a bachelor's degree, know English, are between 21-49 years of age, and have 4+ years of work experience in a technical field, then you have enough points to immigrate to Canada. It's that easy. Compare this to the US, where immigration is virtually impossible without an employer or family member to sponsor you.

I also question your claim that Germany and northern European countries are "way ahead" of the US. As stated your claim is largely meaningless, because nowhere in your post do you state what standard you are using to judge countries. If you're talking about quality of life, then sure, I can believe that (although I have no direct experience living in Europe). But if you're talking about wealth generation, which is what originally started this discussion, then it's hard to see how you could be right. By any objective measurable standard (e.g. GDP per capita), the US leads all countries in wealth generation. Even if you discount financial-bubble wealth as fake, there are many obvious examples of real wealth in the US (Intel, Google, Apple), and comparatively few from Europe.

For that matter I've had people tell me I should look for a job in Canada. Reason is that they have a real lack of tech workers. They don't have enough locally to cover demand. Of course that doesn't mean they let more in, no immigration continues to be retarded.

Actually, there's a pretty smooth immigration track specifically for skilled workers if one goes through provincial programs rather than the federal one. This requires getting a worker visa first, which can be tricky as it requires a job offer from a company in the province - but then, what better proof of skill and relevance? Having a job, it's fairly straightforward to get a nomination, and then you get fast-tracked to permanent resident status, which is, frankly, good enough - citizenship takes a while more, and there are some travel restrictions while you're waiting to become eligible, but for a settled immigrant it's not a big deal (and if you're not then why apply?).

You don't need a coyote, elrous. We regularly accept Americans up here as immigrants, and it's fairly simple to gain your permanent residency and eventual citizenship. Some of my real-life friends are Americans.

You've got a family, right? You seem to be educated and employable, based on some of your other posts. Those are all ticks in the "good" column.

Drive up for a visit and if you like what you see apply for a work visa. Canada requires more people; we've got ZPG and only immigration will help.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/index.asp

You should at least consider trying to do the immigration thing legally though, because immigrating to Canada looks like it's far easier than immigrating to, say, the United States. Particularly if you're a "skilled worker".

Read all about it: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/index.asp

Mind you, some things have changed since then (in particular, the point system to determine eligibility was revamped).
However, everything you need to know is available online

You are right on target; I had some serious money to invest in a startup in CA, but the sheer humiliation involved with the immigration process just made me sick. Couple that with a sad growing xenophobic hatred for immigrants, from people with no understanding of economic change, and a firm belief that anyone not born in sacred american soil must not be as smart as them, as deserving as them.

Here's your mistake, right where I added the emphasis.
Immigration-wise, the "right" CA is not CAlifornia but CAnada.

My experience is a bit outdated but near the turn of century it was easier and faster for a skilled professional to get a permanent resident visa than a work visa and the sheer number of 1st, 2nd or at worst 3rd generation immigrants made xenophobia a non-issue. After all, it's hard to hate immigrants when your one grandmother speaks Cantonese while the other has a thick Polish accent.

Yes, we have our our share of problems and faults (*cough* Harper *cough*) but they are different enough from those you'll encounter
south of the 49th parallel to make for an interesting alternative.

Check here for more info.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/index.asp

Oh, we've been trying to civilize our southern neighbours for quite a while...

Ahh, maybe that's why you declared aboot 200K of us to be Canadian citizens recently. I thought it was because you'd graduated from sheet music piracy to citizen piracy. It was a bit of a shock to learn last week that I was a Lost Canadian who has suddenly been found. Just one question: Where is Canada, anyway?

Canada arguably has the most lenient immigration policies for the educated in the world.
All they need is for you to have a years experience in any of these sectors or have lived in Canada for a year for you to immigrate. They don't really care about your nationality as long as you speak English
While they may not have a sign that says "Come on in and take jobs from Canadians", they certainly have a "Welcome to Canada" sign stuck on the border.

Canada has an expedited process for information technology workers to enter the country... http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/work/special-tech.asp

The following web page from Citizenship and Immigration Canada seems pretty helpful: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/newcomers/before-info.asp.

I'm shame for my country.
It is not THAT bad. Look at the Bush administration and the neo-cons. It's just worse. However, that's true that the political class in France is late of about 20 years on about every single thing.
In any case you could consider moving to Canada. Been there, done that, it's cold but a lot of fun! And there are new american friends joining the fun every day!

Disclaimer: I'm an Immigration Officer with the CBSA, but this post only contains my personal opinion and I don't represent the Government of Canada.

I'm not sure why you were modded information, since you're spreading false information.

In Canada, Public speakers at seminars or conferences that do not go longer than 5 days do not require a work permit, nor do they require a visa if they come from a visa exempt country. Please see the IRPA regulation 186(j) and the Temporary Foreign Workers policy manual section 5.11. Unfortunately, the policy manual is only available in pdf.

Keep in mind that "Software Professionals" have a separate Temporary Visa program here in Canada. I believe the Canadian rules are somewhat less strict than the H1-B/L-1A set. That said, I'm not sure who the target for recruitment is here: Canadians and/or temporary foreign workers.

It's worth pointing out though that if you want to go the skilled worker route, you've pretty much got to start applying NOW to be able to get in by election time.

Or the next best thing. If you can't vote with your dollars, vote with your feet.

"Stephen Harper, or whoever else is Prime Minister of Canada on November 5, 2008 [X]"

Anyone who can scrape together 67 points can get in, and anyone with a Bachelor's degree (which guarantees you'll get the full 16 points for English proficiency, even though your Americanness guarantees you'll get 0 points for French :) and one year's work experience and a job offer -- or one year's work experience and a spouse with a Bachelor's degree -- is going to make the cut.

Canadian income taxes aren't much more than US income taxes. US Federal tax forms don't show the extra 6.2% that's getting taken off for Socialist Insecurity, nor do they take into effect state taxes. The Canadian federal government just turned a $10 billion surplus, and you even get the equivalent of catastrophic health care insurance in exchange for your tax dollars.

Atlas shrugs, eh?

Thanks ... it is civilized, and, AFAIK, we're the only country that does this (provinces opting out with equivalent financial compensation). Its part of the checks and balances we enjoy.

How does one emigrate to Canada, anyway? :)

Seriously, if you're from the US, just drive across for a visit, then marry a Canadian. Same way Canadians emigrate to the US. (yes, Canada and the US have a "special understanding", in that most of us know someone who has done that, and we don't mind ...). BTW, you don't actually have to marry - just be in a common-law relationship http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/sponsor/faq-spouse.ht ml#Q1, and that can be with someone of either sex.

Seriously - http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/index.html

Check out the Provincial nomination link.

However, you can forget it if you've got a criminal record, and that includes any drunk driving. While it might have "just" merited a fine in the US, its always a criminal offense in Canada, not a misdemeanor.

Thanks ... it is civilized, and, AFAIK, we're the only country that does this (provinces opting out with equivalent financial compensation). Its part of the checks and balances we enjoy.

How does one emigrate to Canada, anyway? :)

Seriously, if you're from the US, just drive across for a visit, then marry a Canadian. Same way Canadians emigrate to the US. (yes, Canada and the US have a "special understanding", in that most of us know someone who has done that, and we don't mind ...). BTW, you don't actually have to marry - just be in a common-law relationship http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/sponsor/faq-spouse.ht ml#Q1, and that can be with someone of either sex.

Seriously - http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/index.html

Check out the Provincial nomination link.

However, you can forget it if you've got a criminal record, and that includes any drunk driving. While it might have "just" merited a fine in the US, its always a criminal offense in Canada, not a misdemeanor.

Thanks ... it is civilized, and, AFAIK, we're the only country that does this (provinces opting out with equivalent financial compensation). Its part of the checks and balances we enjoy.

How does one emigrate to Canada, anyway? :)

Seriously, if you're from the US, just drive across for a visit, then marry a Canadian. Same way Canadians emigrate to the US. (yes, Canada and the US have a "special understanding", in that most of us know someone who has done that, and we don't mind ...). BTW, you don't actually have to marry - just be in a common-law relationship http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/sponsor/faq-spouse.ht ml#Q1, and that can be with someone of either sex.

Seriously - http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/index.html

Check out the Provincial nomination link.

However, you can forget it if you've got a criminal record, and that includes any drunk driving. While it might have "just" merited a fine in the US, its always a criminal offense in Canada, not a misdemeanor.

And just for the record, where do you live?

The U.S., for now.

Bonus Question: If the answer to the above is "US", why have you not emmigrated to another first-world country?

I'm working on that.

Canada seems pretty reasonable. I'm going through the immigration process as have married a Canadian. As you're probably an American (judging by the reaction to that article!) you'll be able to integrate very well up here. In many ways the countries are very similar (the kinds of shops, the cars people drive etc.) Europe and the UK were a big culture shock for my wife and probably would be for you too (I'm from the UK). More importantly: in a study on privacy rights Germany then Canada were the top two.

To immigrate you may want to consider refugee status, sounds bad but the description fits quite well:

A Convention refugee is a person who is outside of their country of nationality or habitual residence and who is unable or unwilling to return to that country because of a well-founded fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, political opinion, nationality or membership in a particular social group.

(Emphasis mine)

If you are seriously that scared of this project, and can prove it when you get here, then do it. There are more conventional routes of course: skilled worker for example.

Canada seems pretty reasonable. I'm going through the immigration process as have married a Canadian. As you're probably an American (judging by the reaction to that article!) you'll be able to integrate very well up here. In many ways the countries are very similar (the kinds of shops, the cars people drive etc.) Europe and the UK were a big culture shock for my wife and probably would be for you too (I'm from the UK). More importantly: in a study on privacy rights Germany then Canada were the top two.

To immigrate you may want to consider refugee status, sounds bad but the description fits quite well:

A Convention refugee is a person who is outside of their country of nationality or habitual residence and who is unable or unwilling to return to that country because of a well-founded fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, political opinion, nationality or membership in a particular social group.

(Emphasis mine)

If you are seriously that scared of this project, and can prove it when you get here, then do it. There are more conventional routes of course: skilled worker for example.

Sorry forgot to give u the site

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/index.html

The question is not whether to reocunt, but how many times do you do it? Under what conditions? If there is a 12% difference

Yes, I agree that it is not as simple as I suggested.
Still, I would argue that the simplest case is one we can probably all agree on. That is to say that when there is widespread doubt about the results that at least one recount would be in order.

Am I the only one here who thinks that fighting to stop a ballot recount should be a criminal offence?
Probably. And that is a good thing.

I admit that comment is a little extreme... I'm not certain I would write such a law if I were "king for a day" but I stand by the principle that opposing a recount (and I'll narrow it to say 'opposing the first recount') consitutes an open attempt to reduce the accuracy and effectiveness of our elections.

It is another thing entirely to actually work to reduce the problems with the system.

yes but it's soooo much easier to just bitch and moan... ;)
Now, in this case I have an easy-out: I'm not a US citizen so I can't really intervene directly...All I can do is bitch and moan to americans.
That's probably just an excuse though... there are problems up here in the free world (canada) aswell and I'm not out fixing them.

Here's a thought: I've been told that these US election ballots are very complicated and thus cannot be effectively counted by hand as we do here in canada.
This page (point number 5) shows an example of a canadian federal election ballot.
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizen/look/look-17e .html
It is wonderfully simple. easy to understand and easy to count by hand.
Why are US ballots so complicated? If you are running multiple elections simultaneously would it be possible to seperate the ballots? Have one simple ballot for each election taking place that day...
Or, one ballot-"book" where each page is a stand-alone simple ballot for one election...