Slashdot Mirror
Health Insurance When Leaving the Corporate World?
An anonymous reader writes "I've been working at a large company since I got out of college, so I didn't have to give much thought to getting my own healthcare plan. Now I'm thinking about leaving the corporate world and starting out on my own. I have a family now, so I need to make sure we're going to be covered should anything happen. Researching online turns up horror stories of people trying to get individual healthcare plans, or getting denied coverage on plans they thought they had. Does anyone else have experience going through this and what you've had to deal with, or am I making too big a deal of it?"
Move to the UK or another country that cares
Move to any 1st world country not the USA.
There is no step 2.
I've been told that forming a single-member LLC can lead to qualifying for group insurance and will prevent denial for 'pre-existing conditions', but i can't vouch for it. more research is warranted.
Good luck. Depending on what state you live in, you are either well and truly fucked, or deeply, seriously fucked.
The best thing you can do is start a trivial corporation, hire on some fake employees, and then get a group plan.
and enjoy universal health care for about $100 per month for a family of 4, unless you can show economic hardship, and then it's free.
And utilize your spouse's insurance.
1) Don't get sick
2) Die quickly
I found that the local grocery stores were union and part time workers could get full benefits. After looking at the cost of insurance for my family, I worked as a grocery cashier 15 hours a week (a fun job actually), received full benefits (taking up most of that paycheck) until my wife went back to work where she has the benefits. Otherwise, I would have never left corporate life because of that single issue.
When I was self-employed, I was able to get cheaper insurance through my local Chamber of Commerce. I had to join (and pay the membership fee), and it was still expensive, but nowhere near as bad as if I'd done it all by myself. And don't just limit it to your own town - a lot of them don't care where you live/work as long as you're close enough to be in the same general area :)
If you can get one of those countries to let you in, many of them have decent healthcare systems that don't tie you to a particular employer. I'm sure many of them are good, but Germany immediately comes to mind.
The problem is that to immigrate, many require you to either have a job waiting for you, or to be opening a business with some kind of (hard) guarantee of employing locals.
Did you just wake up from a 2 century nap or something? It's _always_ been a bitch getting health insurance without the help of an employer, and it's _always_ been the insurers' primary goal to make money by not paying your claims. Pardon my sarcasm, but you might want to subscribe to Newsweek or read a non-Slashtot blog now and again.
.nosig
Just like when planning for a very large purchase, be thorough and methodical in researching your options. Firstly, dismiss the plans that do not offer sufficient coverage. Secondly, dismiss plans that have yearly or total lifetime limits that are too low. Thirdly, read reviews, opinions, and small print on whatever plans are left. Finally, pick whichever fits your budget, preferably from a company whose last quarterly statement is not deep in the red, since the latter is sure to raise rates or compromise coverage.
Finally, remember that long-term disability is an absolute necessity in addition to life insurance (and possibly even more important). Make sure it's a policy with a completely different company.
If you go about it in a cool, organized manner, you will find the coverage you need... but don't be alarmed when you have to pay at least $15'000/year for it.
VMware instructor said he joined Amway just to get the medical benefits. Third hand so not sure it's doable. (he didn't try to recruit me or anything...)
they'll give us universal healthcare ... oh, wait, nevermind.
Seriously, although this book is aimed at artists, they have a whole chapter devoted to dealing with these issues, because (duh) you're usually ON YOUR OWN. http://www.artistcareerguide.com/book.php Good luck!
3 of the first 4 responses are simply "Move out of the U.S." One suggests Canada.
Seriously - If I was willing to move out of the U.S. and good health care was on my list of needs, where should I go?
A good net connection and a government that doesn't care to monitor what I do on that connection would be a major plus.
I'm no more than 5 years from retirement and find this question oddly applicable to my situation.
If you live where they serve. I've had them for 35 years, my daughter was born in their hospital, wife had multiple surgeries. Get the plan with the highest co-pay and then self-fund an HSA account to cover the copay and other things like eyeglasses. About half the price of the mainline insurance companies and no worries about how much the 80/20 costs will bankrupt you. And yes, small business and self-employed plans are available.
"Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
Talk to a CPA. If you're working for yourself, your health insurance expenses (even those for your family) can be deducted from your taxes. This does ease the burden a bit.
Proverbs 21:19
I'd recommend you don't do it. If you do, make sure you build an appropriate amount into the costs of your new endeavor (price your product accordingly).
I did exactly what you describe in 1999 and have not had health insurance to this day. You can plan on spending upwards of $1,000 per month for family coverage. At the first sign of a health problem, expect the rates to skyrocket. After an ER visit, expect the rates to go up the exact amount that it would take to pay those health bills over five years. The insurer has no "group" to spread their increased costs over, and will make damn sure they aren't the ones in the negative on the deal.
The only positive is that I have successfully negotiated huge discounts off large bills, like 70% off a major surgery, by paying cash in advance. In the end I've spent far less on my family's medical bills than we'd have paid in insurance premiums, not counting the out-of-pocket costs on top of those premiums.
Look, don't get me wrong...I'm all for companies and industries working to make a profit. That is, after all, the entire point of capitalism.
That being said, FUCK insurance companies and the healthcare industry in general snubbing patient health to make a profit. As I said, I'm all about making money and I'm all about industry making money, but profiting off the misfortune and ill-health of people is the worst kind of dickery.
Living With a Nerd
if you're rich, you have no problem
if you're poor, you have medicaid, and you have no problem
only if you are a middle class citizen in the united states do you have no healthcare options, and have to do ridiculous gymnastics like the poster above
how the hell did we arrive at this retarded status quo and why the hell do teabaggers and republicans oppose simple common sense reform of a horrible stituation?
i can hear all of their criticism of socialized medicine. republicans, teabaggers: i accept and acknowledge all of your criticism of socialized medicine. BUT ITS BETTER THAN WHAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE. do you not see that?
when you oppose socialized medicine in the usa, because of all the evils of that you see, you merely support a MUCH WORSE STATUS QUO
are you resisting because you have a better solution? (crickets)
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Move to UK get covered by the NHS
If you can't afford health insurance, there are other options. At least until you or your family get seriously sick or injured.
Most large insurance companies (State Farm, AllState, etc.) have a variety of health insurance offerings ranging from hospitalization-only, to "traditional" comprehensive major medical plans (usually an 80/20 split with the they pay/you pay format plus a deductible) to HMO and HMO-like products. Prices will range from $300-$1,500 per month depending on the type and amounts of coverage. Some states offer small group or community pools where small businesses can band together to form a risk pool for better rates. Most BlueCross/BlueShield plans have small business insurance options, but they will be pricey.
Most of the horror stories involving "I thought I was covered but they said I wasn't" are due to lack of reading the plan requirements for in-network/out-of-network coverages and what doctors and hospitals were part of the plan, what services required referrals or pre-approval. Bottom line: no matter what you buy, make sure you know the details before you do anything, including visit an E.R. or go to your regular doctor for a check-up.
Supposedly one of the strengths of the U.S. economy is its ability to rapidly adapt to changes. This has been used to justify the lack of job protections for workers. But as the poster has shown, having health insurance tied to your employer obstructs the kind of entrepreneurism that's part of our rapid adaptation.
I don't understand why this argument hasn't come up during the health-care debates. It would have let Democrats position themselves as pro-economy.
My recommendation is to get the minimum insurance you can possibly get, i.e. something that will only cover major accidents and health problems. Don't get maternity coverage. Don't worry about preventative care coverage. Try to put away at least $10k in the bank to cover normal health care costs. A pregnancy will probably cost twice that (3x if a C-section is needed) but at least you are half-way there.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Here's the easiest solution. Find out how much you would pay in yearly premiums to cover you and your family, then find out how much visits to the doctor and dentist would cost you if you had no insurance. I'm certain you'll see a huge discrepancy between the two.
For the average, healthy, person, it is much more cost effective to pay your own doctor bills than it is to get insurance. The extra money you save can be put into a money market account to collect interest in case something large comes up.
When you consider how much you and your company spent to cover you while you were employed, and the fact you almost never used it, it's a huge financial drain with the only winner being the insurance companies.
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
Are you on crack? Or do you just spend your time listening to liars without doing any fact-checking?
Insurance premiums for self-insurance are 100% tax deductible, provided you itemize your deductions and meet the minimum threshold (which is trivial considering how much insurance costs these days) -- they've been that way for decades.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
I bought an HSA when a few years ago my company raised insurance premiums. They had a plan and were self insured so basically we just paid for what the cost was divided by number of employees. We had some employees that enjoyed the outdoors and got into a lot of accidents that raised the costs for everyone. My family plan was $700/mo.
So I went out on my own and got an high deductible HSA from Humana. It was about $200 a month for a family of 4. It had a $10k deductible so basically you are paying for your own health care unless you have something major happen. Then it paid 100% above the $10k. The good part is you can put up to $10k pre-tax into the HSA savings account. You can then pay your health bills using pre-tax money. They had a PPO which means they have a network of doctors you can use that they have a negotiated prices. But you can use any doctor you want.
What I found is that we shopped around. You would be amazed at the difference in prices if you say you will pay at the time of service. Some doctors wouldn't quote us a price for the visit so we didn't go there. Also we shopped around for drug prices and found that most of the big pharmacies will match prices.
Get a High Deductible Insurance plan and an Health Savings Account.
Getting into nutritional medicine would also be a very good idea (most diseases we get here in the US are due to poor nutrition and for the most part all our health care industry does is treat the symptoms).
I got an individual plan from the same provider that my company had been with. It was really pretty simple. Not cheap, but simple.
I'm damned glad that I did, too. My wife was diagnosed with breast cancer a couple of years later (she's fine now). We would have been wiped out if not for insurance.
the no
Also, remember that all the time you spend researching plans, puzzling over them, applying, waiting, and receiving rejections should be counted as wasted time when you could have been doing something productive. I've wasted hours trying to read and comprehend one of those health insurance choice packets that Blue Cross / Anthem gave me before I realized there was no way whatsoever I could pick between them in a meaningful way. I suppose if I was already sick and I knew exactly what I would be spending, maybe I could have figured out my costs by counting doctors' visits and treatment coverage, but since I'm healthy at the moment I have no idea what disease or injury might befall me.
Maybe there's a reason to have choice in the health insurance market, but I've honestly never seen one.
But what should one do first to qualify for the Canadian counterpart to a green card?
is to find a civilized OECD country with socialized medicine.
The U.S.A. is now a third-world country with a large population of neglected residents. It's NOT going to get better.
Yours In Riga,
Kilgore Trout
I'm sorry, I missed the bit where you had constructive advice to offer to the poster.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
People who are living nearby the border are going to Mexico if they have health issues.
I don't know if you're able to move or not, but the situation isn't the same in every state. Maybe you could move to Hawaii, for example.
It might be overkill, but if you really want to go out on your own, that could be a path forward.
1) In Massachusetts, my wife & I have adequate, if not great, insurance through the state clearinghouse for $850/mo 2) Most colleges/community colleges require insurance for enrolled students >>and if you don't have it elsewhere, have group plans that are ok, and real cheap. Last time my wife took some courses it was ~$3k/year for both of us. Even adding in the cost of a course...of course.
The business model of the healthcare industry can explain why it's difficult for individuals to obtain policies.
Note, this is not flame bait, just what I understand about the facts. The healthcare industries are in biz to make money - your claims are their losses, so if you rely on a plan that is subsidized wholly by the healthcare company, you're more likely to have troubles than, for example, a policy under an plan in which the company is "self insured" -- self insured means that the individual company has a pool of funds that pays claims and the healthcare company (ie: Blue Cross) is the "servicer" on their behalf. Under that scenario, and in my own personal experience, you are less likely to have troubles.
60 Minutes recently did an interesting segment on this, which included former employees ("Doctors") of large healthcare companies who came forward about some of the internal politics of this - and the horrors of the policies that favor denied claims, etc.
Notwithstanding other really good advice and info here, of course.
Also, if you'd like to see another viewpoint and comparison of the healthcare industries of the world, see Michael Moore's "SiCKO" -- tho there is obviously a bias there, I found it quite interesting.
This is partly why this so-called "public option" has people up in arms. It's (mostly) about the money :-)
I think that's great that you're looking to get out on your own; I wish you the best of luck.
I'll tell you a fact from a Canadian perspective of a middle class person. For all the complaining about the "death panels" we actually don't have here (vs. your for-profit insurance companies you guys do have) and saying that we have to wait forever (which we don't, prioritized: if you need it you get it *now*), when the average Canadian looks at the situation the average US'ian is in: we feel HORROR. God people, how can you choose to do nothing about it?
Shh.
Look into any kind of groups you have membership in especially professional associations. For example IEEE members (I believe after a year of membership) can get group health insurance, although I have not looked into lately it it may no longer be the case. Also organizations like AAA (yes the auto club) have discount prescription programs. Basically look at any group you belong to see if they have leveraged the power of their membership base to negotiate rates with insurance companies.
My boy, my boy!
"Ordinarily medical expenses, including insurance premiums, are not tax deductible until they exceed 7.5% of your income."
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/money101/lesson16/
If you are self employed, you can deduct insurance premiums, but otherwise, you are out of luck.
Get the best primary residence you can possibly afford. If you get really sick, go on Medicaid. Medicaid can't take your primary residence. Also, look into a "Medicaid approved annuity" to protect some assets; but be mindful of the fact that it will lock up the money at low interest rates.
If you don't have significant assets, don't buy anything. Health insurance doesn't insure your health, it insures your assets--badly.
In general, set up an asset protection plan if you have any signficant assets. Talk to a lawyer. The idea is to make yourself looke "poor on paper". Really. I wish I were kidding.
Well, my advice to you would be to set-up your company in Canada.
If you did that, you will enjoy preferential trade access to the US market, standards of living comparable if not better than those in the US, and a healthcare system you do not have to worry about.
Best of all, your life expectancy will be nudged up a notch.
My only problem with Canada is the fact that its market is secondary to US companies more often than not. This means that the Droid, Nexus and other phones will always be late in the Canadian market.
How is that?
I am in PA and I started full-time contract work just over 5 years ago. I have a family and have been using Aetna the whole 5 years. At, first, my premiums were 575 per month, with a deductible for each family member of about 500 for prescriptions, 150 for emergency room, 15 dollar copay, and some other pretty decent stuff. Now, my premium is 1,100 per month, deductible at 1000, copay 25 and emergency room at 250. I rarely go to the doctor, and if I do get a prescription it is only antibiotics. My wife only goes to normal visits and my kids don't go that often. My youngest has asthma, but we pay for ALL asthma related items out of pocket (since she has been taking floven, the asthma has not been an issue).
Anyone who says that lowering taxes will help small business is either f***ing retarded or a flat out liar. My taxes have in fact gone DOWN the past couple of years, while my health insurance nearly doubled over the past 5. Guess what else has gone down. RATES. The only reason I am still doing this is that I love it, and I am hoping that I can expand further and take on other workers. I would like to hire them full-time, but with health insurance being what it is I have to take them as a w2 contract or 1099.
I don't want to crush your "American Dream", but as far as health insurance goes you are basically Effed. And if you are trying to do "research" note that there is no real competition. You either pay out the ass for fairly decent coverage (still with out of pocket expenses) or you pay less with a a crap load of out of pocket expenses. THERE IS NO REAL COMPETITION!!!!!
They only pay out in a fraction of cases, no matter the circumstances. Somewhere round 50% or so. Then they hit the corp up for costs later as well.
Deleted
I've been doing this for years. BCBS, at least in the state of Minnesota, offers family plans with large deductibles at fairly affordable rates. Of course, with a $5,000 - $10,000 deductible, you're likely to never collect, however you do benefit from the negotiated rates that insurance companies have with service providers. I choose the option that pays 100% after the deductible, figuring that if something catastrophic happens, I don't want to pay 20% of those huge bills for heart surgery, transplants, cancer treatment, etc.
Contrary to much of the posted opinion, assuming that your are in good heath, an individual policy for you and your family will be much cheaper than what the insurance company has been charging your company (of which you may only of been paying a very small portion of). Anthem freely admits the group and small group insurance is much more expensive for a healthy person than its individual policy.
Insurance will NOT cost you and your family 15K /year if you all are in good health. If a member of your family is not in good health, then I am sorry. If this is the case and you can send your partner/spouse to work to help out, then I wish you luck.
At age 50 (old I know) and in SoCal, Anthem wanted to charge my company $1100/mo for me and my spouse under its small group policy vs $410 for an equivalent individual/family policy. So please - don't listen to the horror stories - call around.
Some professional associations offer group health insurance plans, like IEEE. I don't know how good the coverage is, but it might be worth researching.
SixD
Here's why I didn't vote for John McCain: In 2008, a rawther imperialist ideology called "neoconservatism" ruled the GOP, and sticking with the GOP would have led to spending more money on foreign wars for oil. There were suggestions that neocon "defense" spending would eventually cost tax-paying Americans more than starting a savings account and buying high-deductible individual health insurance. The "tea party" movement against government spending in general didn't start until after President Obama took office.
Your best bet is to create a "group" insurance plan with your new venture and will have similar benefits to the kind of large "group" plans have with your current employer. You can create a group plan with just 2 people (You and your wife).
profiting off the misfortune and ill-health of people is the worst kind of dickery.
I assume you don't also mean doctors, nurses and EMTs.
A house divided against itself cannot stand.
IANAL, but do have some entrepreneurial experience.
If you have some extra cash to burn during the transition, I strongly advise you to consider incorporating your business from day one. Form a chapter-S (closely held) corporation, and name yourself (and you spouse, if applicable) as officers of the corporation. Then, have the corporation pay all of your health insurance costs. Those costs are then deductable for the corporation. The cost to incporporate will vary from state to state, but you should be able to do it for less than $1,500. You won't necessarily get any better rates. It simply allows your premiums to be deductable. Once incorporated, most States have limited requirements regarding your operation, typically requiring an annual business meeting and the filing of an annual report with the appropriate State department.
Of course, since IANAL, I strongly recommend that you check into the specific laws of your State or Province, to make sure this would be a good move for you. If allowed, and if you can afford it, it is the best way to decrease the pain of needing to pay for your own health insurance. It comes with the added plus side of helping to shield your personal assets in case of any liability claims against the business. Of course, when just getting started, many companies with which you do business may require a personal guarantee since the business will have no credit history.
Do think about it.
I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
There are programs out there for small business owners, and individuals. I was covering myself and my daughter through a program directly through BCBS of Texas. Find the local blue cross blue shield, and ask about individual coverage, or the risk pool depending on the state you're in.
There are other professional groups that have insurance programs.
For instance, the ACM has insurance programs, though I don't know much about the cost or coverage. The IEEE has a similar set of programs, though it does not look like they have a straight health insurance offering. If you are going on your own, it might help to start a formal business - you might be able to get a small employer program.
You will spend a fair amount on medical care for kids, even if you just do the normal preventive care. The cost of a whole-family plan will reflect that. If I had a young family now, I would seriously consider a high-deductible plan. You pay for most of your own care, but the insurance is there in the event that you have major expenses.
Floating face-down in a river of regret...and thoughts of you...
These responses of move to "XYZ" or move out of the US that are modded "insightful" is simple flamebait and does not help the questioner or add anything new to the discussion.
We get it, lefties. You don't like the US's health care system. Get over it. This guy is not going to move out of the USA simply because of health insurance.
Pfft. So in your view the whole world is 'left', and the US is 'centre' or something?
If you must stay in the USA try the following: kill and eat the hearts of republicans (if you can find any that have one). Then you will gain their powers and be able to ignore your health problems until they go away. Do not move to Canada, their hockey team is bad. I recommend Switzerland or Sweden. If you don't like white people, try Singapore, Morocco, or Columbia. They all have better health care than the US. If you are picky about a country, check the WHO website. They have a list of countries with good health care.
If you have reached this point and are frothing at the mouth or hurling your mouse, lighten up and ebay yourself a sense of humor.
If you think it's better to "Ask Slashdot" than to "ask an insurance agent", you're not ready to be in business for yourself.
Look at HSAs. IF you are young(40), that might be a good option. Basically, it allows you to put money in a tax free health saving account. You can use this account for medical expenses. You get a HSA plan from an insurance company. A HSA plan is a high deductible plan but you you use your pre-tax $$ from the HSA account for the deductibles. You can contribute up to 5800$/yr and if you don't use the money this year, it rolls over to the next yeat(unlike a flex spending account). Best of luck.
We get it, lefties. You don't like the US's health care system. Get over it. This guy is not going to move out of the USA simply because of health insurance.
Weird, I was pretty sure that dislike of the US health care system was pretty universal regardless of party affiliation or position on the political spectrum. Granted, how to *fix* the system is a polarizing issue, but whether or not the US system sucks balls doesn't seem to be up for debate these days.
Though, as an aside, some people actually do leave the US because of healthcare. Many more would like to, but can't afford to move any more than they can afford their healthcare premiums (some of my friends fall into the latter category).
I DO include doctors that prescribe specific medication or treatments because they get kickbacks from those companies, but in general no I don't include doctors, nurses, and EMTs in my statement.
Working to make a living is not the same thing as profiteering.
Living With a Nerd
If you are healthy you should consider an HSA, Health Savings Account. The basic idea is an umbrella heath insurance plan for the very big stuff, so that it is cheap. Then tie it to a lifetime medical flex-spending account to pay for the small stuff. What you don't spend each year rolls over into the next year. Over time the account grows large enough to cover you when you are older and possibly having more problems. The trick is to start young and avoid unhealthy lifestyles.
These responses of move to "XYZ" or move out of the US that are modded "insightful" is simple flamebait and does not help the questioner or add anything new to the discussion.
We get it, lefties. You don't like the US's health care system. Get over it. This guy is not going to move out of the USA simply because of health insurance.
so then what is your advice? or is it just "NO"?
Wouldn't you be more confident to quit a corp and start a business if you, your family and your employees would still get their hospital bills payed even when you are short on cash? Even if you are asked to pay more taxes when and if you become a huge success? Where will you cough up $2K/months/employee from unless you are as rich as McCain with his 7 houses? Somehow I don't think you will be getting much help from Republicans.
are often exactly the sort of lower middle class folk who would benefit immensely from socialized medicine
its like in the town hall meetings last summer, the old man who stands up and yells "keep your socialism away from my medicare"
it would be hilarious if it weren't so horribly tragic
i think it just boils down to incredible, horrible levels of high propaganda: the government is out to get you! the government is YOURS. it serves YOU. really
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Move to Canada.
It is possible to get a fairly good plan through an association, either business of technical. The cost is higher than thru a company as there is no subsidy. The price will depend upon the size of the group and the quality of the plan. There are a number of insurance agents that specialize in this type of business.
I quit working full time and became a part time employee 10 years before I quit completely. I switched from paying a too high charge for the group insurance offered by my employer and my wife and I bought an individual policy from Blue Cross/Blue Shield. We had to go through medical underwriting which basically means they look at your medical history. If you and your wife and kids are healthy you should be able to get coverage. We got a non-cancelable catastrophic plan with high deductibles. The premiums have more than doubled in the 10 years we've had the coverage and went up 17% just this year alone. We are both in our 60s. Since getting coverage we have both had health issues arise and getting coverage now would be harder, if possible.
You can currently do COBRA for up to 18 months. This will let you keep your insurance on the same plan through your current company even after you leave. As part of the economic recovery package passed last year it extended how long you can take COBRA from 6 months to 18 months.
If this is enough time for you to grow your business into having at least 10 employees then you should be able to get a group health plan. There is a caveat on that. Its illegal to discriminate against hiring someone because they are unhealthy but if you hire even one sick person you won't be able to get coverage for ANY of your employees without everyone paying an ungodly fortune if at all. So its illegal to not hire Mr. Sick, but if you do hire Mr. Sick then no one gets health insurance. Health insurance companies aren't in the business of providing health care, they are in the business of maximizing profit. They maximize profit by not covering sick people as much as possible while gathering as much money from healthy people as they can.
Individual plans are a horrific idea. You buy health insurance not for the $20 co-pay for normal office visits. You buy it so if your kid gets cancer or something horrible that your insurance can pay the $200k + medical bills. Recission is RAMPANT on the individual market. These aren't just anecdotes that poloticians are using to play on heart strings. It is a matter of policy in the health insurance industry. If you or one of your family members gets diagnosed with an expensive disease your health insurance company will thank you for paying your premimums all those years you were healthy by dropping your coverage and throwing you back into the open market with a now uninsurable pre-existing condition.
It happens. I know someone who was a small business owner on an individual policy, got bone cancer. The individual policy he had through Regence that he had paid on like a good boy for over 5 years dropped him the month after he got diagnosed. He ended up having to liquidate his business and left his family with nothing by the time he died. Unless some kind of health reform passes that makes recission illegal, don't bother with an individual health policy. They ARE USELESS. You're better off just paying for health care out of pocket since these policies won't cover catastrophic expenses.
I actually still work full-time for an employer who has a unionized shop. So even though I work in I.T., in their office, we qualify to join in on the union's health care program. Nonetheless, it's still actually a little bit cheaper for me to opt out of their insurance and pay for my own with a Blue Choice PPO policy. (The union's insurance plan sounds pretty good at first, until you read all the fine print and realize it has a "lifetime limit" hidden in it, which could really screw people over if they were in the hospital for cancer or something, and hit the limit all of a sudden.)
My rates have gone up every December since I bought the plan, but it's typically been about a $40/month increase when they've done it. Not happy about it, but still competitive with what my employer wants to take out of my paychecks for their plan.
On the other hand, I didn't have any pre-existing conditions to deal with either. I think the people who do are the ones who generally find they can't get a decent price on an individual health plan.
Please post links to the McCain plan to fix health care. Oh right. There is none. It's really productive to criticize an entire bill based on a competitors campaign promise.
My suggestion? Vote Democrat so that Republicans get such a small voting percentage that corporations no longer want to support them. This will allow new parties to spring up and hopefully a viable one will emerge. Voting Republican will just make you angry again when they yet again do nothing and spend a lot of money doing it. The Democrats already do the whole "conservative" thing far better than Republicans. Some of us would rather have a conservative and liberal party (and maybe one or two more), rather than a "party for people who want to get stuff done" and a "party that wants to rant and waste money".
It's time to get rid of the Republican party and get a new one that can deal with Democrats like adults. Let the Republican party become the marginal home of evangelical christians and anti-government nutjobs that it so desperately wants to be, and let us have at least two parties that are interested in coming to the table and figuring out ways to make our country work. Of course the Democrats are coming up with inelegant solutions. It's because there's no one coming up with alternatives.
Enroll in college. Seriously.
The price for enrolling a college group health plan for a year covering you, your spouse and your kids is probably equivalent in price to one month of a catastrophic high-deductible plan for you and your family.
And quite a few college plans throw in dental.
The Daily Show covered this nicely...
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-february-11-2010/the-apparent-trap
It is quite amusing watching the Republicans trying to explain who public healthcare is a freeway to hell but how successful it has been in Hawaii for 40 years.
Why not? The horrible US health insurance contributed greatly to me moving out of the US. It's amazing how you realize how fucked the US is once you're working in another country.
The horror stories about the huge taxes people pay to live in Socialist countries never mention the huge amounts of benefits you get. Have a kid? Here, let us give you money since kids are expensive, plus have someone come by to help you out.
All in all, the taxes aren't much higher than the US. Fed tax, state tax, SSI, sales tax, car registration, state park fees, etc.
But I miss not having TSA and the Patriot Act and ghetto birds and an ex-vice president who admits to war crimes.
The kicker, I'm not a lefty and I'm an NRA life member. But the left wing in the US is more right wing than the right wing in many civilized countries.
Oh man, and driving isn't a birthright! It's amazing how well people drive out here. Really, the US is a sinking ship.
I have a individual (not group, not employer offered) HSA plan with a very low premium and a high deductible. Every month I put some money (about the difference between this plan's premium and a average premium plan) into my HSA account. Although the deductible is high, I save enough on the premium to basically put away twice the yearly deductible every year. The plan gives 100% coverage after deductible on everything covered (no coinsurance), and many things (annual checkups) are totally free even before the deductible.
In other words, in years when I have high medical expenses, my total costs work out about the same as a high premium, low deductible plan. However, in years when my medical expenses are low, I get to KEEP the money that I would have spent on premiums. The insurance company loves it because any expenses I incur come partially out of my savings, so there is a definite motivation for me to keep my costs as low as possible (which keeps their costs low as well, unlike other plans where there is no incentive for the insured to keep costs low).
And the best part is that everything I deposit in the HSA account is TAX DEDUCTIBLE and earns interest TAX FREE. When I retire I can withdraw from it TAX FREE as well. It is like the best parts of a Traditional IRA plus a Roth IRA, but I can use it to cover any health expenses I have at any time and with no penalties.
Bottom line is that I'm paying about 1/2 of what the equivalent coverage would cost from a regular plan, and in the best case I get to save a lot of money that would have been wasted on premiums and earn interest on it tax free, and in the worst case if I use up the whole deductible, I still get good coverage, lower my taxes, and earn some interest on the money. The only time I wouldn't recommend the HSA is if you get really sick a lot and have high expenses all the time, especially prescription drugs which aren't discounted as much in this plan.
I have three kids and a wife, and over the years we've talked a lot about what would happen if she lost her corporate benefits. Would I be able to keep running my business? I used to think no, I'd need to go take a corporate cube dweller job for the healthcare and for the "stability" --
but here's the thing -- The stability is a myth at this point, and health coverage co-pays and employee buy in are getting more and more expensive.
If my consulting and project work gets slow, it gets slow. It picks up or I alter my focus a bit. In the corporate world, it's all or nothing. One day a manager decides you're too expensive and can be replaced by some very good talent in India or Singapore -- who will eventually fail, not because of talent but because the US based project managers aren't able to write good specs and you've been making up for that locally for decades. Next thing you know, you're gone. Now you' have no health care anyway, plus no income, plus no prospects but to start over looking.
I looked at the cost, and decided that it'd be smarter to pay the $15k+ per year for coverage than to go captive again unless I had a crazy golden-parachute in my contract (which is unlikely as hell).
The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
As someone who's spent too much of the last decade out of work, everything you hear is true - like in Florida, over 13 mos between the end of '03 and the end of '04, when I ran out COBRA and got rolled into an "individual" plan, and the Republicans in charge of the state allowed, in two jumps, a ->ONE HUNDRED PERCENT- increase in premiums.
Consider finding a group to join that offers it - anyone know if either the IEEE or ACM offer plans?
mark "until we techno-peasants finally wake up, pull out the torches and
pitchforks, and ride the Republicans out of town on a rail, tarred and
feathered, and tell the remaining folks in Congress to pass single payer"
Go to eHealthInsurance.com. Although my company covers most of my insurance costs they cover only very little for family members. While the plan is generally pretty good it's also expensive. Not wanting to deal with high monthly costs I went to that site and compared plans, finding one that was rated well but priced at a monthly rate I could manage.
I shouldn't get into this because inevitably I'll get modded into oblivion for not following the crowd. Inevitably once we get to talking about healthcare someone has to start claiming that the American healthcare system is crap compared to the rest of the world. They'll bring up the famed infant mortality rate although it's well known that the US counts infant mortality differently than Europe resulting in higher numbers. The death rate in the US is pretty good, better than some European nations and worse than others. But there are a lot of factors that play into death rates. Cancer survivorship in the US is among the highest in the world; I have the benefit of working with a cancer survivorship charity from time to time and am privy to a lot of insightful stats. Then there's the staggering amount of medical research constantly being done in the states.
But I don't need to bring up stats, because being European most of my family lives in Europe. So I know how the average person lives there. First off, whenever we get to talking about politics and social issues the complaints are virtually identical to what we hear in the US. Extremely high taxes, benefits being cut, immigration problems, corruption, the list goes on. The issues with healthcare vary from country to country, but waiting lists are pretty much a universal issue. I have an uncle who was diagnosed with prostate cancer last year. Had he gone through the system he would have had to wait 6 months for surgery. His doctor strongly recommended he pay out of pocket and get the surgery done immediately. This is something that actually happens on a fairly regular basis. Then there's the issue of governments cutting benefits because they just don't have the money to sustain them. I have an uncle who has needed on-going treatment which has been cut by the government forcing him to get private health insurance to augment the government's plan. I have tons of examples, I could go all day listing issues they've encountered. And the thing is, sure they've got socialized health insurance, but most good there are also twice as expensive as they are here. Every time they visit the states it's like a spending spree buying what they can because it's so much cheaper here.
That said, the US healthcare has a fundamental issue. It's too damn expensive. There's a very real danger of a person going broke just paying for medical treatment. And insurance companies absolutely are screwing us badly. Something needs to be done and honestly I don't know what it is. How do you cut costs across the board, I mean everything related to the healthcare industry is expensive. How do we force down costs without bringing about rationing. I mean, it even touches on matters like education. I think there's something seriously out of whack with the pricing of services in the US. When it costs $100+ an hour to have your car worked on by some inept mechanic it's not surprising that someone like a doctor is charging far, far more for his work. It's pretty hard to start haggling on price when you're laid out on a stretcher and are more concerned with your affliction being dealt with.
My big concern is that it seems like politicians are more concerned with making favors to special interests and forcing their will on us than they are with actually fixing the system. But from everything I've seen around the world I'm not really convinced that just going with a socialized system is going to do the job or even make things better.
Individual health insurance is an absolute joke in the US, especially for family care. If you do 'go it alone' and you don't make a ton of money (well into six figures) then you might as well just skip to the end, flush your cash down the toilet and file for Medicaid. You will end up there eventually.
Considering you have a family to look out for, you need need NEED to find a cooperative or small business owners group to buy into that provides benefits. It will still be very expensive, but you *will* be ruined if you go it alone or go without it.
That is all.
Jumping into this thread... I always wondered if that meant in australia, because, relative to you, they're upside down, if their right was your left, or vice-versa. I've read in a book that the left/right axis was inverted, regarding the USA-centric approach, in the old USSR.
There are more than two sides to most issues. I know it's reassuring for a lot of people to classify others as left/right, but it's like black/white, there's a whole bunch of shades of grey unaccounted for.
Change your diet to less meat and more vegetables, fruits and honey; loose weight, drink non-fluorinated water, drink a lot of herbal teas, exercise daily except one day a week, do some meditation daily for 30 minutes, do voluntary work and go to support groups just to listen to people and be there to emotionally support, that will keep your health tip top.
Less fat and carbs in your diet and a smile will keep you young forever.
Then do as smooth_wombat says.
Sorry for not explaining myself fully. At the root of the issue it's like coming across someone who is repeatedly shooting themselves in the foot. Each time they do so they ask, "How do I pay for it?", from the Canadian perspective we say: "Stop shooting yourself in the foot."
Shh.
The United States is not a viable option, if you value decent healthcare provision.
There are companies that specialize in grouping together small companies and independents to qualify for group rates. Trinet is an example of a company that specializes in doing that for startups, there are other coops and probably some different local options. In the corporate world you're probably used to paying a fairly small chunk and your employer actually pays the majority of it, when you're on your own you get to pay it all so it's more. It can be afforded though, it's a matter of priorities. We're talking about downgrading the next car you buy kind of a price you might be looking at a Lexus for $40k or something but the insurance costs might drive you down to like a $25k Toyota or Honda, it's that kind of monthly payment.
Another option, and it really depends on what you mean when you say "health insurance" I think the majority of folks just want to go to the doctor whenever they want and not have to pay a lot. Things like checkups and annual exams are the sorts of things that don't really fall under insurance in the classical sense. So what you do is approach BlueCross/BlueShield or some other insurance company and you get quotes for catastrophic coverage with like a $5000 deductible. I've seen this cost families of 4 under $200 a month. So this won't cover checkups, it won't cover child birth, it won't cover the flu and it probably won't cover most simple broken bones like children may get from time to time. What it does cover is a big expense and you'll have to adjust the deductible to something you can deal with: $2000, $5000, maybe $10000, if those are just way out of line for you then maybe this isn't for you. Essentially, you're responsible for health maintenance. Doctor's visits will probably cost like $100 and you'll pay the sticker price for medicine but a lot of doctors are pretty cool about that and then some companies like Walmart (go figure) are very aggressively trying to drive the costs of medicines down and encouraging the use of generics and such and a large scale. You pay for what you need, if you're a tightass or really strapped for cash, you can cut annual visits out and only go when you're really sick, but that's not a good thing to do. If you have a really healthy lifestyle though, it might be a cost effective way to go, you're worried about your kids falling of their bikes or your wife getting in a car accident and you can buy coverage for that type of stuff.
The bigger problem here is that the business model for American insurance companies is pretty broken and they've confused the consumers to the degree that they've pitted them against each other. The healthier/younger folks want doctors visits and medicine for no more than $30 a shot. The middle aged folks want every option in the world when a health issue materializes, regardless of costs and so the insurance companies in the middle of that. It's health maintenance vs. insurance and they play together, the more you maintain your health, generally the less you will need actual insurance. Now the insurance companies are run by legitimate cock suckers, there are some rules about who they can deny and why but as an independent you're on the short end of the stick more often. If you or your wife could return to corporate work pretty easily, that's an option to get coverage again. If you're not careful you go with some low cost catastrophic coverage, one of you children get a cancer or something that's kind of in the grey area between coverage and non-coverage and then they black ball you when you try to upgrade to a more comprehensive plan; at that point you're on the hook for thousands of dollars in treatment (or accept death, I guess) and they won't help you.
Another option is your wife could get a part time job somewhere and work enough to buy insurance for the family. Or depending upon the ages of your kids, colleges and universities often have plans that they can buy in to.
Like I mentioned above, there companies that specialize in forming coops to get group rate
I feel qualified to answer this since I'm a health insurance agent..... Each state has its own rules regarding health insurance. Depending on your health and your family's overall health, you may be able to find health insurance in the United States for a fairly affordable rate. I know you can do everything online now, but there is a reason insurance agents and brokers still have jobs. I suggest seeking one out to help you find a good plan. Don't just seek out someone who calls themselves an "insurance broker," however. Deal with one that's a member of a professional and ethical organization. Check for a health insurance agent from The National Association of Health Underwriters (nahu.org) or the National Association of Insurance & Financial Advisors (naifa.org). Each has a listing of professionals that can help you with this. Three points of advice: 1.) don't buy from a family member or a close friend, get someone who will give you professionalism at all times. 2.) Don't buy from someone new in the business. I've been doing this for seven years and NO ONE I started with is still in this business. They were either sued out of the business for unethical business practices or left because they wanted to make a quick buck and found it really doesn't work that way. 3.) Make sure your broker or agent is part of a professional organization like NAIFA or NAHU. It demonstrates a commitment to their career. You don't ever want to do business with someone in any field that is not committed to their job. Especially one as dangerous as the health insurance field. Yes, health insurance is daunting and currently is getting a bad rap, but I assure you ethical professionals are good at finding plans to meet your needs.
I'm a four time serial entrepreneur, but each time I start a new company I panic about this. Because I once saw a doctor about a pain in my foot that might be arthritic, I am denied coverage by every carrier out there. I even hired an independent broker to help me, but he had no luck either. I've never gotten or needed additional treatment for my foot (or anything else) and I'm a healthy non-drinker, non-smoker in my thirties.
It's not only as bad as you were told, it's worse. I also mentor other entrepreneurs and when I talked to anyone older than 30, the main reason not to take the plunge is health insurance. Bless the 20-somethings who aren't worried and expect to live forever.
The reality is that the majority of people are happy with the quality of health care available in the US. What some people are unhappy with is the cost: either of the insurance or the treatment, which are symptoms of the same issue. Unfortunately, the populist bullshit that is being peddled now will, at best, minimally slow the rise of health care costs at the expense of quality and/or availability.
Don't know if they're still available, but when I went out on my own for a few years, I opted to pay most of my health care out-of-pocket. I bought a high-deductible, catastrophic insurance plan that would cover any medical expense that would have bankrupted my family.
It was a wonderful experience. The catastrophic insurance rates were very low. Over three years, the amount I spent out-of-pocket was about 70% of the amount I had been spending on an employer-supported plan. There were no forms to fill out. No paperwork, except at tax time, when I could claim a medical deduction for the only time in my life. We could visit any doctor we wished. Some doctors even gave us a small discount for paying up front.
In my experience, my family has never needed more than a tiny fraction of the health care services available in the employer plans I've been forced to participate in. I wouldn't mind moving permanently to a high-deductible, catastrophic system at all.
"We receive as friendly that which agrees with, we resist with dislike that which opposes us" - Faraday
and the US is 'centre' or something?
That's spelled center, you tur'rist furr-ner! The USA is fair and balanced. And everyone everywhere else is OMG Teh Lib'rul!
You think like a ReThuglican Jew
Find out how much it will cost to get a high deductible policy. Figure out how much you should put into an HSA. Budget that into your contracting rates, business proposals, or wherever your income is coming from.
Health care is expensive. Hospitals are expensive to operate. Training doctors is expensive. Developing and testing medications is expensive. Medical equipment is expensive. If you want it, somebody is going to have to pay for it, and nobody wants to pay for it on your behalf. Just like nobody wants to pay for your house and car for you.
You have three options:
Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
$15000/year is the bare minimum. By 'bare minimum' I mean a plan with topline 'coverage' numbers that actually translates into additional money you don't have to spend on medical care AFTER the insurance company covers some care AND the time and effort required to not get a meaningful percentage of medical care costs shifted onto you anyway.
A year ago, I got into a freak accident where I stood the likely possibility of bleeding to death. 8 hours of emergency surgery, other terrible stuff. I blew through the deductible in the first hour of surgery. ($2000) That's what rainy day savings is for. What followed though is actually worse.
-Hospital's bills were rejected by the Insurance company because they didn't call to notify the Insurance company. (While I was bleeding to death, the hospital was required to have called to get approval AND THEN started saving my life) They were going to send all of the Hospital's bills to us. And they will too. I ONLY found out about this because I checked to see that the claims were getting processed. If I didn't check, the insurance company would have closed the window on the possibility of getting the claim paid and then the entire invoice of the hospital's services would have come to me.
-Despite the paying the advertised 'maximum deductible' of $2000, there were additional costs that I had to pay. How is that possible? The insurance company categorizes medical expenses as they see fit. So for any given bill, they can choose to cover costs as they see fit. They satisfy their marketing claims and still passed another $2000 in stuff they wouldn't cover onto me.
I put as many hours into not getting screwed by the insurance company as I did in physical therapy. This is how screwed up American health insurance really is and $15000/yr is the bare minimum.
I am mpapet and I approve this post.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
So are you saying that:
1. You earn $100K/year
2. Your are NOT self employed
3. Your employer does not provide health insurance
4. Your personally bought policy is cheaper than $600/month
Doesn't sound like a big concern for most people.
It really saddens me to see that on /. a discussion about health care is just as uninformed and banal as I have seen all over the internet.
My only viewpoint is: I would rather have to buy my own insurance, and become dirt poor because of the high cost, than have "universal" health care, and become dirt poor because of the crazy taxes and crappy economy that are sure to result (ya I said that).
IOW - I'd like to control my own life, which includes my healthcare, and I thought that was kinda the whole point of the "free" USA.
I did this for awhile. You have a couple options. The first option you should look at is COBRA. It will cover you for up to 18 months with your existing employers health-plan. The downside is you will have to pay the full amount (what you were paying PLUS what your employer was paying - that came out to 300-400 dollars per month in my case). The second option, what I went with, was to go to a ehealthinsurance.com where you enter in your details and it gives you quotes from a bunch of different providers in your area. I had very good luck with that and found a provider for a good price that had low premiums and solid coverage. It was tough finding one that covered pre-existing coverage but I eventually did as long as there were no gaps in my coverage over the past 2 years.
A few other tips:
1) do NOT have any gaps in coverage as this may make it impossible to find a provider who covers pre-existing coverage.
2) quit on the first of the month because usually companies will cover you until the end of the calendar month and your application can take a couple weeks to get approved by a provider.
Good luck!
There is nothing wrong with health care in the USA. Every day you are getting better and better. Insurance companies will take care of you. The government can't do anything right, so don't let them mess with health care. The health care that politicians have is not really what you want. That lump on your face is really attractive and does not need a biopsy...
Sorry, but gray text on gray background is making my eyes bleed.
Corporations with group plans have bargaining power over the insurance companies, individuals don't. An individual (self-employed) plan will always cost more.
Here are the options you have:
- Be under-insured: buy the cheapest possible insurance with high deductible for unforeseen events (car accident, appendicitis, etc.). Everything else (doctor visits) pay out of you pocket via an FSA account. I know people doing this and they pay about $5,000/year pre-tax in medical costs (mostly kids going to the doctors, tests, antibiotics - a doctor's visit is about $150 cash, medicine is $200 cash for some infection, etc). This may be cheaper than your co-pays with the corporate plan you have now.
- Look into a non-profit health insurance co-op. This is much cheaper and provides excellent coverage. If you have pre-existing conditions you may not get into the co-op.
- Be uninsured - when you start your own business and have no or very little income at first, you get more benefits by not buying any insurance at all. Go to the ER for all treatments and through state-sponsored programs for long-term illnesses. Only your income, not savings, are considered when determining eligibility to pay.
- If you have a chronic disease and require ongoing treatments/medicine,better stay with your employer.
It is really funny.
I do not get how people think a system which gives a profit to health insurance companies AND to health providers can match the cost of providing health care of a system where health insurance and health care are run by the government. DoO they not know that procedure for procedure health care is the most expensive. My holdiay insurance has to cover me for TWICE the amount for healthcare if I am in the US than in any other country in the world.
Yeah, you guys are so free... to pay massively dispoportionate profits. Isn't that racketeering? I imagine government would do something about it, but then they'd take a big hit in contributions from the beneficiaries of that profit...
Cutting out corporate profit means Universal Health care is quite easily acheivable. Only those most determined at maintaining their 'social healthcare is evil' viewpoint can maintain the level of cogntive dissonance required to ignore the fact that most of Europe runs such systems. And people are not dying in droves on waiting lists, and provisison of full health is far wider.
Not all of it is fully public sector (like the UK). I live in Holland. I pay 130 Euros a month for a policy that provides free Doctors appointments and Dental check-ups, 50 - 100% of 'normal' expenses, and 100% of any major medical incident or illness. I can choose one of a dozen or so Health companies to pay this money to. THere's an equal amount of money paid by my employer to the government.
It works, really well.
AND what the blinded ignore is that in the UK (and most countries with 'free at point of provison' health care), you can also pay for private Health Insurance if you want special service.
But when is this neccesary? I know of no one in my family or English friends who has unreasonable delays for procedures. Yes, if it is not life threatening or majorly debilitating you may have to wait. But you beak a leg it all gets sorted out straight away. You have a heart attack, they sort you out straight away. Life-saving cancer treatment? Pretty damn quick. Need a replacement hip? You might have to wait a while, but not long. So what, you will get it. For free. Outside of a few new drugs that are still extremely expensive and do not offer enough 'value-for-money' (in terms of life extension/quality) almost everything is available.
The reality is that the majority of people are happy with the quality of health care available in the US.
Ahhh, but now you're mincing words. I'm sure the *quality* of healthcare in the US is very good. I don't think anyone has disputed that.
What some people are unhappy with is the cost
*Some* people? Try *most* people. Cost is a *huge fucking problem* in the US healthcare system. It's not just a huge problem, it's *the* problem. And it leaves millions upon millions either uncovered or undercovered. Additionally, availability is a huge problem, as cost makes coverage unavailable for some, and for others, even if they have coverage, they may not be able to avail themselves of it, as it may be canceled, coverage for procedures may be denied, etc.
And these issues are systemic. Which is why most Americans, regardless of political affiliation, are *not* happy with the US healthcare system, and will freely admit that it's deeply flawed and needs to be fixed somehow. The only question is how (and that's a really big, complicated question).
Weird, I was pretty sure that disinformation about dislike of the US health care system was pretty universal -- particuarly from the left.
Don't let little things like facts get in your way (most Americans satisfied with quality of their own medical care and health care costs)...
True! Do we rip apart a system completely that most americans are happy with? Or do we attempt to address the weaknesses in it? And do we do that at the federal level? Shouldn't that be done at the state level if the state's citizens what such a thing? These are good HONEST questions. Which should be debated in the open without name calling.
Only by those who either cant or wont read -- or are being selectivly blind.
If you look at the health insurance system that existed in the past this was not as big of a problem. Initially you had most health insurance being provided by mutuals where they did not have concepts like preexisting conditions. But what happened was these non-profits were soon getting dominated by for-profit health insurers. Not because these private insurers were more efficient, but rather because they invented concepts like preexisting conditions and did a lot to limit the pool of people they insured. This let them offer lower prices and seem like a better deal until you got sick and they upped your rates or got rid of you all together.
This got an order of magnitude worse as some of these private insurers became publicly traded companies. Not only did going public give them more capital to work with to further undercut competitors, but it also created a necessity of every increasing profits on a quarterly basis. That means they have to continually find ways to screw the insured.
So no, it wasn't always this way, but it definitely is now.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
You'll want insurance. Also, you'll want insurance coverage without any break in it, ideally, or you can hit a range of problems.
There are several ways to do that. If you're really setting up on your own then you're already looking at incorporating or setting up as an LLC. As part of that, talk to a local business insurance broker about various things, including health insurance.
If you're a professional, check with your professional associations. The IEEE (which is a great organization for engineers, software or otherwise) offers group insurance to members, for example.
If your skills are individually valuable, rather than being a commodity, consider working part time for either your previous employer or a random startup. There are other advantages to doing that as you set up on your own (peers to bounce ideas off, access to resources, actual income) but group health insurance is one of them.
Don't skimp on preventative care - dental and optical in particular. If you're young and healthy and don't have kids then you can skimp on the health coverage, going for a high deductible plan and doing the risk modeling yourself - a common thing for individual insurance, which can be very expensive otherwise. But if you have kids, or are thinking about it, don't do that.
And, once you've asked slashdot, talk to your spouse. Unless (s)he is on the same page about this, as well as everything else about setting up on your own, then you're well and truly fucked, both in relationship and business terms.
Since you work for a big company you are almost certainly eligible for COBRA coverage. It normally lasts 18 months, however I believe that was temporarily extended to 36 months last year. It ain't cheap, you essentially will be paying the full cost of employer provided coverage, however it is the path of least resistance.
In California (and a handful of other states), Kaiser Permanente offers pretty reasonable rates if you and your family are young, healthy and have always been healthy. Even something like childhood asthma can make you ineligible.. I'm insuring my family of 4 for about $600 per month with a maximum annual deductible of $7000 and no lifetime cap. Rates are higher if you can't risk that high of an annual deductible.
If you have a prior condition, it's nearly impossible to get insurance on your own. I have friends trying to set up a group plan and it's taken over a year to get going.
Also, keep in mind that if you or anyone in your family does get sick, you may not be able to leave the state and keep your plan, so pick a state that has good insurance rates available, will not drop you if you get sick and that you are willing to live in long term if you do get sick.
If you or any family member are or has been sick, you may want to look for states that have implemented some form of community rating. You may want to look for states that have guaranteed issue.
Good luck.
I'd love to here if anyone has done any serious research into Medical Tourism options. It may be cheaper to drive to Mexico for antibiotics when you think you need them and pay out of pocket or use a free clinic for basic things and then have some cash in the bank in case you get really sick - but I don't know of anyone whose actually done that.
I had a stint of several years without corporate insurance. The situation is grim and I can only tell you what I ended up doing.
I too had a family (3 kids and a wife). I found a private plan with Blue Cross that cost around $1200/month and considered it a steal. (Although I was not affected, I heard horror stories about individuals who were unable to get private insurance at any cost.) The coverage was similar to my prior corporate plan but with higher deductibles and more gate-keeping by our primary care physician.
After a year of this I looked around for an alternative and moved to a high-deductible plan with Aetna (deductibles were $5k/person; $15K/family) and opened an HSA. I contributed the maximum allowed to the HSA each year (note, this is not a FSA!). For the remaining years this was the approach I took and it worked well but no one got seriously ill, we didn't need any hospitalization, and only used a hospital once for my daughter's broken foot. For the duration I was with Aetna's high-deductible plan, they paid nothing, but my cost was only $612/month and I got the tax benefits of the HSA.
Absent a health plan you are paying retail for all medical services vs. the negotiated cost your insurer has obtained. You still end up paying a lot (all?) out-of-pocket but at a reduced rate. The same applies to prescription drugs. This negotiated cost business is the secret sauce of the industry. You go to your doctor and he charges you $100 for the office visit and $300 for an x-ray. But Aetna has negotiated these fees to be $65 and $125 respectively which is what you end up paying unless you've reached your $5K deductible. If you've got the money in your HSA you pay it from there using pre-tax dollars. If you don't have any insurance (or the doctor doesn't take your plan) then you pay the whole retail price ($400 in this example).
We had no dental nor eye care coverage for the duration but both can be paid using the HSA account.
In both policies a pregnancy was specifically excluded but we had finished our family by then so it was not an issue for us.
I hope this helps.
If you and your family are health I would look into a high deductable plan and open an HSA, the HDP's are pretty reasonable and you can take the money you would put into an HMO/PPO into a savings account tax free to cover the deductable plan.
The insurance companies hold all the cards.
Look at how the rates are climbing even as their profits are.
They are squeezing the last drop from your wallet because they know a single payer system is inevitable.
If you're going to be sick, you'd better not do it in the 'States. Its no place for you if you flinch at the thought of suing somebody who's only sin was being weak once (as we ALL are at least 15% of our lives.)
Other countries' health care systems may not be perfect but at least they exist.
The 'States have nothing even resembling a humane health care system.
What they have is health-don't-care systems.
Health care for profit is an oxymoron.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
When I was contracting, I got a high deductible plan with a health savings account. Unless you're always at the doctor, it's a great deal. The plan had a $7k deductible and included a drug discount, but it was pretty cheap (~$60/mo). That sounds horrible until you look at the HSA. The HSA works like an IRA, where you can deduct the savings from your taxes and they grow tax free. You pay your normal costs (check ups, etc) from cash or the HSA (and pay taxes on the HSA withdrawal), but the health plan will pick up if there is extended hospitalization, etc. Once you've built up the HSA enough to cover the deductible, your annual costs can be only premiums and doctor visits. You can continue building your savings beyond the deductible if you want to have multiple years worth of deductibles or you're maxing out your retirement plans and want more tax deferred savings. Now that I got hired, I went with the company plan because their subsidy makes using an outside high deductible plan actually more expensive, but I'd go back to it if it wouldn't cost me more.
Don't let little things like facts get in your way (most Americans satisfied with quality of their own medical care and health care costs)...
Good try attempting to muddy the waters.
*No one* has claimed that *quality* of US healthcare is low. I never said that. I'm not sure anyone has said that. The issue is, and always has been, cost. And the very poll you cite indicates that most Americans are dissatisfied with the cost of healthcare. And those costs are the result of flaws in the system. Therefore, most Americans are dissatisfied with US healthcare system and feel its flaws need to be addressed.
True! Do we rip apart a system completely that most americans are happy with?
I don't know. I never asked that question, and frankly, I'm don't care. My point is simply this: dissatisfaction with the US system of healthcare, specifically on the issue of cost, is essentially universal across the political spectrum. This is *not* a partisan issue.
The question of *solutions* is. But I don't believe there is anyone, on the left or the right, that would dispute the statement that *something* needs to be done to curb the rising cost of healthcare in the US.
That's how the US gets those staggeringly low unemployment numbers - at least one spouse has to work, unless you want to die on the street in a carton if you get cancer.
The doctors could even make house calls if you had a sick child. A wonderful system, and about half the cost of our monstrosity.
Think global, act loco
I was in this exact same situation (I've been unemployed/self-employed twice) and chose to go with a Blue Shield PPO.
If you choose the right deductible, it can be fairly affordable but still cover your family in the event of a tragedy. Plus with a PPO you can usually choose your own doctors and the meds are WAY cheaper than going without insurance. We had no billing issues or fights with them whatsoever when we had our 2 kids, and they seem pretty fair in paying their claims.
No affiliation to Blue Shield, just a happy customer.
The left/right terminology has it's origins in the orientation of the french parliament during their revolution.
Actually the US is right. Canada is pretty close to the middle-left, Europe is to the far-left. That sums it up pretty well.
Om, nomnomnom...
And the very poll you cite indicates that most Americans are dissatisfied with the cost of healthcare.
Or not. I misread the bar graph. My mistake. 40% of Americans are dissatisfied, which is hardly "most". Though it's certainly the primary reason for dissatisfaction with the system.
Interesting poll, though. I do wonder what would happen if you took slices across the income spectrum... I'd expect you'd see the rate of satisfaction *highly* stratified based on income level. And given rates of unemployment have been skyrocketing in the US since that poll was taken, I wouldn't be surprised if the rate of dissatisfaction has increased over time (it's easy to say you're happy with healthcare costs if your employer is hiding them from you)... but that's just a guess.
That's all well and good if you've got a good $15,000 a year (it can cost up to that for good independent coverage) spare to buy health insurance.
I imagine most normal middle class folk don't have that laying around.
It is by my will alone my thoughts acquire motion; it is by the juice of the coffee bean that the thoughts acquire speed
If the company you work for qualifies you are entitled to COBRA. This means you keep your current coverage (though, you pay for it) for the time being. Depending on your state there may be an extension to COBRA (which also covers people without COBRA at all). For example here in the great state of Alabama there is the AHIP program. Unlike COBRA, you have to move to a different plan, with different rates (AHIP offers two options), but you still get the benefit of having continuous, credible coverage so when you find another group plan to join you don't have the waiting periods, etc. I will soon be using this, as I am leaving my current position and the company is too small for COBRA.
I also will say I agree with the majority sentiment here, that the current system screws the workers and keeps us from moving around the labor market. This, in turn, makes our economy much less effective. It's horrible from an economics standpoint, and the supposedly pro-economy politicians are showing their true ignorance by not working to fix it ASAP.
This post at Faux News (with statute text) actually goes into why the IRS was recently attacked, and is of material concern to you and your question.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
This guy is not going to move out of the USA simply because of health insurance.
When I left the US for Canada health insurance factored large in my decision. After all it's just a short hop across the border.
When I first started working I worked for a very small tech company that did not have a medical plan. This was in 2003, and at that time I paid 600$/month for a private family health plan. It was expensive, but it worked just fine. I never had any trouble with coverage. I even had a daughter with some (very minor) health issues when she was born, and had no trouble seeing a specialist. The plan was very expensive, but coverage was not a problem.
Two years ago I quit my job and bought health insurance. Cost about $1200/mo for my family. When I was looking around what I saw most were people complaining about how expensive it was. Sure, it is, but the job I'd quit was paying about $2000/mo for me. And while it might be expensive, simply factor it into the cost of running your own business -- just like *ANYTHING* else. If it means you have to charge $10/hr more, then that's what it means.
Also, consider an HSA/catastrophic plan. We switched recently to that, and even with two young kids, we end up spending less than we did for just our premiums before -- and when you get down to the nitty gritty horrible accident scenerio the coverage is pretty much the same -- well, don't get pregnant... that isn't covered.
I think someone has disputed the fact that the quality of health care is good.
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
i don't care if its kaiser wilhelm, or otto von bismarck, keyser soze or this kaiser permanente fellow
its bad enough a certain socialist secret communist muslim wants to destroy america with healthcare reform
i'm a real american. i would rather die a slow painful death than get my healthcare from the czar, the mullah, the comandante, or the emperor of japan!
traitor
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I spent a few years off of corporate health coverage for a while in Minnesota. We're a great healthcare state, but even here, if you have any kind of income, there is no way to buy affordable health insurance. In my case, my only option was to drop coverage, pool the over $1200 per month that I would have spent on health insurance to take care of doctor visits as they came up, and pray nobody in my family got cancer. It was either that or sell the house. Our system is broken and there is currently no way to be self-employed, pay a mortgage, and buy health insurance all at the same time.
I can't see things getting better any time soon. The only thing you can do is vote for people who are actually going to try to fix this. There is a clear track record of political parties that have resisted meaningful healthcare overhaul for over a decade, and political parties that have tried and are trying even now to get healthcare fixed in the U.S.
In the short term, you can try the few scant options mentioned here. In the long term, it is pretty clear who to vote for to finally get healthcare fixed in this country.
Welcome to reality.
There are two things to look at when leaving the corporate world and having to handle health insurance on your own.
First, if you are leaving at moderately large employer (20 or more employees) with a group health plan, then when you leave you will have the option to purchase continuation coverage. This is usually called COBRA coverage from the old federal law that created this right, a good time ago - the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconcilliation Act.
COBRA coverage is a good news/bad news kind of thing, but do stick with me because there is actual good news at the end.
The good news is that IF your employer has a group health plan and has 20 or more employees, then normally you will have the right to continue on the employer's plan when you leave the company. This is good, since it means that there is no possible risk of having current health issues excluded from coverage.
OK - here is the bad news. You have to pay for it, and the employer will almost certainly not subsidize the coverage any longer. This is where you find out just how expensive health insurance actually is. What you have been paying each month via payroll deduction is usually only a small part of the total cost, which the employer has been subsidizing. Once you are no longer an employee, the employer will stop subsidizing the insurance. This is bad news, because depending your exact circumstances, family size, location, health history etc you may find that the actual cost of your health insurance is something like $1,000 or more a month.
Now, for the other good news. Under recent federal law the cost of COBRA coverage will be subsidized. Basically for now, you will only end up paying about 35% of the actual cost. The rest is subsidized in the form of a tax credit to your former employer. You cut a check for 35% of the actual cost, the employer pays the rest of the cost to the health insurance company, and the employer gets a tax credit. If you read up on the premium subsidy you will see articles saying that the subsidy expired. Recent federal law extended the subsidy, so that it is still active. This is pretty recent development.
Assuming you are eligible for COBRA this will almost certainly be the best deal you will be able to find.
The second option to look at going forward is a high deductible health plan, coupled with a health savings account. An HSA is something like a 401K for medical costs. All the money you put into the HSA is tax deductible and is yours. You take a large deductible on the policy, which helps keep the premium costs down and then use the money you have saved into the HSA to pay (tax free) for medical costs not covered by your health insurance.
While The high deducible health insurance policy will have lower rates than a regular policy, it will still not be cheap. If you are COBRA eligible, the current tax supported premium subsidy is your best bet for now.
OK, just remember - I am a damn lawyer, but not your damn lawyer. Also, the devil is in the details. COBRA coverage is great stuff for ex-employees. But you have to make sure you submit the paperwork on time, and for goodness sake never, never be late paying your COBRA premiums.
I joined my local chamber of commerce (Monroeville, PA) and was able to get good group coverage for my family while I was a self-employed sole proprietor.
Sounds like Anonymous Reader is a twit from the number one country in the world. He's probably voted for politicians who've advocated and supported invasions of other countries and endless violations of human rights.
He wants our help?
Fuck him.
This guy is not going to move out of the USA simply because of health insurance.
Some people do. E.g. the daughter of the guy that flew his plane into the IRS building in Austin.
My brother for years had what is called "Catastrophic Coverage" and quite simply it makes the "who pays" calculation very simple. You agree to a pre-determined out-of-pocket toal for the year (say, $5K), then buy coverage for all medical expenses that exceed that amount up to whatever threshold you are comfortable with. Then, during the course of the year, you simply pay for all your medical bills out of pocket until you reach the threshold, then you prove to the insurance company how much you have paid and they will pay for the rest of the charges that occur that year.
There is a problem though - doctors will cut their fees becuase you are paying in cash, you will likely start to get a lot of free "samples" for prescription medicine and it may be quite hard for you to actually hit the threshold you set, but in the big scheme of things, that's an OK problem to have. ;^)
Others have mentioned COBRA, but it typically covers way more than *most* people need, and you'll be paying a lot for your coverage. (I've been on COBRA before, and my overly-generous healthcare plan from my previous provider ran $1,500-1,750/month (at various employers at various times))... The high deductable coverage ("Catastrophic Coverage" I mentioned earlier) is likely your best option - you get to pick ANY doctor, ANY lab, and incidental items like eyeglasses may be covered...
Ken
I should ask you the same question, sir.
:)
Insurance premiums, bought by individuals, are NOT tax deductible unless your medical expenses exceed 2% of your adjusted gross income in the tax year. Then, as you state, they can be deducted like other itemized deductions. However, your claim that they are 100% tax deductible is just.....wrong.
The GP's point stands: corporations get to write off their medical insurance premiums. Individuals who buy it on their own enjoy no such privilege.
By the way, I'd say you were lied to.....but keep listening. Hope is just around the corner.
I don't know if this is an option for you but I was able to transfer my company plan to a personal one. The policy isn't as good as the corporate one but it's not bad. So I would check with your insurance company.
is such a big political issue.
Hope you don't have any minor (or major) things on your medical history.
*Some* people? Try *most* people. Cost is a *huge fucking problem* in the US healthcare system.
Actually most people with employer-provided health insurance are insulated from the true cost of the insurance. Since the employer considers the insurance benefits to be part of the employee compensation, the companies actively avoid discussing the level of that compensation.
What if employers simply increased employee salaries by the cost of insurance premiums and forced the employees to write the check for the premium? Once the employees see just how much health insurance premiums cost and they wrestle with the 15%-40% annual increases; then the populace will finally demand reform.
Get over it? Is that how you deal with systemic problems when they're identified over there? No wonder your system sucks.
sudo ergo sum
38% is hardly "*most* people" (re my other post). You might want to issue a correction in this thread, too.
If you can afford the hit, you should not waste money on insurance. That's easy to see on little stuff like the "road hazard insurance" the tire store wants to sell you, or the extended warranties the big box stores push. But it's true of health insurance too.
Everyone is so afraid of not having health insurance. It's like the doctors, insurers, and lawyers have conspired to make the prospect of not having insurance so frightening that no one who the insurance companies accept dares spurn them. First, doctor's bills are unlike any other bills. They play this game of charging fantastically high prices that they actually don't expect to entirely collect. Lawyers subtly encourage this fantasy billing, to justify higher awards, of which they get a percentage. Also, the doctors charge high to compensate for the games insurers play. And finally, yeah, many of them are greedy. Many of them entered the profession not because they're passionately devoted to health care particularly, but because they can have big incomes. So it seems you need health insurance just to get fair prices out of the doctors. But actually, you can negotiate these bills way down, or so I've heard. I have not had to find that out for myself, yet. A most curious thing that sets medical debt apart is that in some cases it doesn't count against your credit record. If there's a dispute, they might sic credit collection agencies on you, but they may have no teeth.
And insurance doesn't mean you're safe. Without it, you are of course taking a chance that some catastrophe might force you into bankruptcy. But, insurance only keeps you a little safer from this! Medical expenses can still bankrupt you despite supposedly being covered. The insurance companies play games, constantly trying to whittle down their portion of expenses you incur. They'll push you, try to get away with everything they can. It gets very old arguing with them over some claim they didn't fully pay again. Doubly hard to keep them honest when you're sick or hurt. Have to balance the cost of dealing with them and the risk they won't pay against the benefits you're supposedly getting. And it doesn't hurt to know a lawyer, just in case they need to be sued to stop them from weaseling out of their end of a bill. If it does come to a lawsuit, there's no guarantee you'll win. They might have covered their bases and you really are S.O.L. and have to pay it yourself. Hello bankruptcy!
So, whether or not you have insurance, it pays to handle the financial part of health care yourself, if you can. Here again, being sick or hurt makes that harder. The doctors can't handle their own money, they sure won't make sane decisions involving your money! If you have insurance, they even push on you to blow off all the financial considerations too, because your insurance is paying for it, not you, so why should you care? They prefer that you just be an obedient patient and not worry about how much some care will cost. Worrying is unhealthy, right? Don't count on that! If you do that, you'll be in for some rude shocks. It's not safe to assume that they'll charge a reasonable amount for some bit of care or equipment. They're very sloppy. Didn't need that appointment with the doctor? Or, had to come back for a second visit because they screwed up? Well, they'll charge you anyway. That's right, they want you to pay for their mistakes too. When they try to prescribe a name brand drug, find out what it's for, and whether there are generic drugs that accomplish the same thing, then demand they prescribe that instead. They have a noticeable bias towards expensive patented drugs. Even when the generic may actually be the better drug, they'll still push you towards what is more profitable for them. Same with equipment. When a hospital thrusts some form in front of you in which you declare that you'll pay for some bit of equipment, DON'T! What's so egregious about that sort of thing is they won't even tell you what the price is up front. They're actually
Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
Shop around for various providers and coverage levels.
Do the math to determine the value of the packages your interested in.
Keep in mind, insurance carriers are not interested in providing the best coverage for the best price, their objective is to profit.
If your family risk level is low you may be better off with a policy that mainly covers unexpected medical needs and use out of pocket cash to cover routine health care.
A comprehensive coverage package will be very expensive and the amount of coverage versus cost seems to vary greatly from state to state.
If your looking at an expensive comprehensive policy run the numbers and compare the expensive policy to a cheap one where you place the difference in monthly premiums into a savings account.
Of course the cheap policy with a savings account requires self discipline to maintain funding of the medical savings account. If you lack the discipline to manage finances responsibly then you may be better off with the expensive policy.
The US system is good at providing emergency care and generally keeping people from dying. We're good at the heroics and cutting edge stuff. We aren't so good at more mundane aspects of healthcare. Culture plays a part in this, and the way doctors are paid does not provide much incentives for mundane care. Of course, those saved by our excellent emergency services will probably be bankrupt afterwards.
Yup, fair enough. My characterization that "most" people are unhappy with the cost of their coverage is incorrect, at least based on that Gallup poll in September of 2009. A substantial fraction feel that cost is an issue in the American healthcare system, but definitely not a majority.
That said, I suspect that if those with employer-provided insurance were exposed to the cost of their coverage, they might feel differently, as it amounts to a massive shadow tax (people who complain about taxes in, say, Canada, rarely take into account the premiums paid for insurance, despite those costs inevitably driving their take-home salary down).
"how the hell did we arrive at this retarded status quo and why the hell do teabaggers and republicans oppose simple common sense reform of a horrible stituation?"
1. Excessive pork: Cornhusker medicare, the "Louisiana Purchase", etc.
2. Insurance "mandatory purchase" likely to hit middle class. The same people lack coverage now will be forced to buy what they already know they can't afford.
3. Federally-subsidized abortion funding. Some are 100% in favor, some are 100% opposed. It's a polarizing issue, no doubt.
4. Taxation on "Cadillac" health plans; looks like a "redistribution of wealth" scheme directed largely at the middle class.
5. Special union exemptions from the "Cadillac tax". What happens when an employer has both union and non-union employees and offers the same plan to both? Oops.
6. No significant relief from the downside of relying on employer-sponsored insurance. Most of the population gains nothing under the House or Senate bills.
7. No increased competition for the healthcare industry, the insurers, the lawyers, etc. This means no price breaks will be coming anytime soon.
8. No public option. Combine this with #7 above, and we have a plan that offers less than nothing, at excessive cost.
The Democrats placed themselves in the position. Most of the time, compromise between Democrat and Republican yields a product that nobody likes. But in this case, the Republicans were ignored because they lacked the votes to do anything. Therefore, Democrats negotiated with themselves and their campaign contributors (the healthcare industry and insurers) and this is what they came up with. Strategically, it make sense to force the Democrats to play the lousy hand that they dealt themselves. Hold them accountable -- on election day.
It can be a big deal if you have any type of chronic medical condition (high blood pressure, diabetes, or anything else that is going to need continuing treatment). The insurance companies are likely to decide not to offer you insurance, and, if you develop such a condition while on an individual plan, they may decide to drop you and/or charge you an extremely high premium. I would recommend continuing your existing insurance for a year under the COBRA plan (meaning that you will be paying the full premium yourself), then find other insurance while you are still covered by COBRA. Several years ago, I changed from a job with group insurance to one that didn't offer insurance. I made the major mistake of letting my COBRA insurance run out before shopping for other insurance, could not find any company willing to sell me an individual policy due to having diabetes, and ended up spending four years uninsured before finding another job with group insurance. During that four years, I ran up enough medical debt that it will likely take me the next 20 years to finish paying it off, once you add in the interest that I am being charged on the outstanding debt.
This thread is the gayest shit I've read in a long time. FUD from both sides.
but judging by the flamebait mod and your perceived need to lecture me, my joke is obviously a dismal failure ;-P
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
The way I perceive it through my education is that in general the ideals United States of America's citizens are indoctrinated with are rugged individualism. I was not raised that the baker bakes bread soley out of his own interest. Yes to an extent that is the way it should be. This leverages the wonderful system of capitalism to minimize inefficiencies. People should pay for what they use - at least until machines are the basis of all production and human labor isn't a scarce resource anymore. Capitalism is great, don't get me wrong. It is also not human. Capitalism is a way to map finite resources to those who need it most. Regulation as a concept realizes that capitalism is an evil entity in that it is not human and does not have human values. Here, where I live, this one little thing we do better than the USA for now, the social safety net, recognizes this. You should not be sentenced to death because a corportation dumped chemical waste into your backyard because it was the cheapest thing to do. The cheapest thing to do is dumping the waste, the regulated human thing to do is treat a persons illness anyway without putting a stone around their neck they will never escape from. Or sadly in too many cases in the US, their families when that person dies anyway. Individuals are responsible for themselves, however, that does not mean we are magically unaffected by other entities decisions that health care in the USA makes you live with right now.
Shh.
Despite all the scare mongering, if you are reasonably healthy you can probably get a a high deductible plan for a few hundred dollars a month. I started my own business 6 years ago and have had my own insurance through two different providers. Things are different from state to state, but I used this site: http://www.nationalhealthaccess.com/ to compare and get some basic quotes.
I have a $10000 deductible policy that costs just over $100/mo for me and my wife. We were able to get health insurance for our newborn through a state program and that has a very low deductible and that costs a little over $100/mo. In Wisconsin no matter how much money you make kids under age 18 can get some sort of care for reasonable cost. If we weren't in Wisconsin we'd probably be on a $300/mo plan for all three of us with a $2000 deductible, which is still pretty cheap in my opinion. If your health is one of the most valuable things in your life, it makes sense to me that you should be prepared to spend a corresponding amount of your money on it. I dread the prospect of it becoming "free" in the US.
If you don't have enough money in the bank to cover a few worst case years of $2k-10k medical bills, you probably shouldn't be leaving your corporate job. Make sure you get your new coverage started BEFORE you leave your current job, COBRA is very expensive and in my opinion is a last resort to avoid coverage gaps.
Open Source is Common Sense: http://groovix.com/
Most businesses (as in the vast majority) in the US are less than 100 employees. Most of those only cover the cost of the employees in part and nothing for dependents (but they get the group discount offered to the employeer).
The cost difference for many of these health care plans between what the employee pays and the full cost isn't that huge. I work for a large corporation. What I pay for my wife, myself and kids is about $3000/year less than the total cost (read $250/mo) less.
This is actually a slightly better deal then before my old employeer was bought out by my current employeer. Much smaller company (less than 100 employees). The difference was $1200/year -- and the total cost was more expensive). My old employeer contributed $100/mo to the employee only.
Then again... I actually pay attention during those "health care coverage" meetings employers are required to give and employees are required to attend.
There used to be an immigrant's scoring test weighing connections(relatives), job-offer, education, experience, age(old is bad), language skills(English+French, sorry not Java :-) Last time I took the test I has just fell below the threshhold, being over 40. But they are more flexible now. My best option is the investor visa, that is parking C$400,000 in no-interest government bonds for five years. They dont want free-loaders there.
I have read that another good gimmick is to become a part time student at a local college or university, then buy the student insurance. I don't know how well it really works. And, please don't think I am saying our so-called system doesn't need fixing. This is just a gimmick that apparently has worked out for some people.
This may have been brought up. There are over 400 comments now. When I left the corporate world I found catastrophe insurance for which has a $5K deductible. My reasoning was that I could get full coverage for about $500 per month, or $6K per year. The catastrophe insurance was about $150 per month, or $1800 per year. So I "save" $4200 per year if I don't get sick. If I DO get sick, I pay out $6800 per year, pretty close to what I would have been paying for full coverage. I'm gambling that I don't get sick. It's been almost six years now, knock on wood, and I've saved well over $20K so far. When Medicare kicks in in a few years I'll go back to 'full' coverage by a supplementary Medi-Gap plan and pay the equivalent of what I do now for the catastrophe coverage.
Your mileage may vary, but thought I would bring it up as an optional path for you. Lots of companies offer this sort of coverage. Mine is with Group Health--Seattle, an HMO.
How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
For private insurance in California for some populations. The average BC annual increase across the board is 25%. Medical insurance has its own "Moore's Law" now doubling about every five years (including out of packet increases). This increase caught Obama's attention and he is talking about it now.
but i am speaking as a fellow working middle class american
i am not asking for a free ride, i am asking for sanity in what i get for the money i spend. shopping across state lines is obviously a hilarious token sideshow conceit, and you can't possibly be serious that has anything to do with a solution to our serious problems. you haven't, and no republican has, and no teabagger has, adddressed the huge systemic cost issues and bureaucratic paperwork storms amongst competing entities and ridiculous price bloat and outright racketeering and profiteering off our health by parasitical corporate structures
but thank you for your pat simplistic answer that isn't an answer at all. i'd like you to admit our current system is a horrible injustice for THE AVERAGE WORKING MIDDLE CLASS. not for your propaganda scare tactic spectre of the free loading poor
please stop being an obstructionist on painfully obvious failures we need to fix for THE AVERAGE WORKING MIDDLE CLASS, not the poor! (as a side note, the poor, you seem to wish only to die)
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
And the bigger the badder.
Interestingly NONE of your big 6 FAILs existed for the first 150-180 years of the nation.
Maybe those things should have been left to each State to deal with, if at all.
What we need is affordable medical services. Right now we have a screwed up betting system (health insurance) where the player bets that they are going to be sicker than they will be, and that when they are sick the medical service providers will be able to do more to help them than they can.
Insurance adds cost and not value to the system.
As always YMMV; and this is coming from an American perspective. If you are in Europe or the rest of the civilized world, I envy you..
I have ran my own company for the last five years after I had got married and started a family. At the time, my wife carried the insurance and it was never a problem being joint on her health care insurance. However, that being said, she worked for HUMANA at the time and we had reasonable coverage for a reasonable price.
About six months ago, she left HUMANA to start her own company as well. We knew that it would cause a lapse in our coverage and agreed to plow ahead.
Boy were we stupid!
I signed up for a small business group coverage plan through The Hardford who had subcontracted out their health care insurance to United Health Care. The premiums, while not outrageous were definately on the higher end of the spectrum from what I was expecting (complete coverage for two adults in their early-thirties -- at $675 a month). Things progressed along and we went to our normal amount of doctors visits and trips to the Pharmacy. My wife takes one maintenance medication for Thyroid problems (synthroid), and I take a blood pressure medication (Mycardis). Not exactly a high-risk category and not exactly what I would say was a 'strain on the system'.
Then, one doctors visit I needed to get an EKG (it was routine; I won't go into the specifics here). No diagnosis was made that wasn't already known, and no new ICD-9 codes were submitted to United Health Care that hadn't already previously been submitted.
I received a letter in the mail from United Health Care a month later stating that they were dropping our coverage because although the physician did not see or diagnose any new health issues, the "patient review physician" had requested a copy of the EKG and had made a diagnosis outside of my physicians that I was now a 'high-risk' patient and should expect to be a walking-time bomb in regards to claims for United in the next year.
After loosing our coverage through United, I received our "Certificate of Prior Coverage" and started shopping for a new policy. Only to find out that everyone I contacted would now not touch our family with a twenty foot pole. I was rejected from countless other insurance companies, and as it stands right now my wife and I are currently uninsured.
Now, my wife is a social worker and very well versed at finding coverage information and programs for uninsured or under-insured patients..
We still as of yet have any coverage.
Caveat Emptor my friend. The health care system in the United States blows monkey chunks.
At least if you're living in the US. Move to a country that has some sanity in their healthcare system, even if you're not into the whole public option thing. Germany, for example. You can private health insurance if you're self-employed there.
Assuming you are in the US, the most important thing I would recommend is don't leave your job until you have insurance lined up. This can be as simple as a decision to keep your existing plan via COBRA. If you leave your job before getting insurance, at least start with COBRA, no matter how expensive. Keep at least COBRA because:
1) You will have *some* coverage (if expensive)
2) You can't go back to it later if you turn it down now
Even better, however, go ahead and apply for and line up private insurance before you leave your job. (And before you make any suggestion of leaving to anyone outside your family or other highly trusted individuals.)
The *worst* thing you can do is leave your job without outside insurance and without accepting COBRA. (You have something like 60 days after termination to accept COBRA.)
I emphasize lining up coverage before you leave for a few main reasons:
1) You may not qualify for private insurance for reasons you would not expect. Just because you think you are healthy does not mean insurance companies do.
2) If you *turn down* COBRA, you are still eligible for it for 18 months, even though you cannot get it!!!!! This is a terrible situation to be in, because most state high-risk insurance pools (usually the insurance providers of last resort for desperate people) will not accept you because you are "eligible" for COBRA, even though you may have already turned it down.
3) Do you really want to risk being uninsured, even for a short time?
The grass on the other side of the Atlantic doesn't seem green at all. Looks more like rotten.
The grass was denied individual insurance due to pre-existing conditions, and the employer had to drop coverage because the costs of premiums increased from $5000 in year 2000 to over $16000 this year.
Meanwhile, Congress sat on it's hands and did almost nothing to help deal with the costs which were spiraling out of control.
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
Look into various small business associations. Look local to your area and nationally - my understanding is that when they are representing a coallition of small business, they often negotiate larger group rates for their participants. Here are a couple of places to start for the national scene: NASE and NBA
Weird, I was pretty sure that disinformation about dislike of the US health care system was pretty universal -- particuarly from the left.
Don't let little things like facts get in your way (most Americans satisfied with quality of their own medical care and health care costs)...
The majority of people don't pay for their own individual health insurance plan. I do, and it really sucks.
Note that while corporations pay for insurance pre-tax, individuals pay with post-tax dollars. Add to that the fact that it's more expensive to buy an individual plan in the first place, and it really really sucks to buy your own private health insurance.
Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
We, "the lefties" consider healthcare somewhere together with the army, police, firefighters and friends. If you were such true capitalists then you would have had a corporate held army and corporate held police. But it's true what people look at is at the quality of the healthcare US has the best, but let's talk again when ratings/comments/articles are made by those that make average or minimum wage ...
Something else that may be a viable alternative: do you have a spouse who can work for insurance benefits? I know several self employed people who's spouses work primarily for the benefits; not just for the short term but ultimately so they have insurance when they retire.
Finally, talk to your tax adviser and check with several insurance agents to see what is available at what cost. There are many considerations, including "am I and is my family insurable?" The potential financial impact of that could be catastrophic. Get real, not /., advice.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
1) Make sure yuo don't smoke/drink. And by drinking I mean not even the occasional sip of wine during a random holiday once/year. If you say "yea i have a sip of wine during christmas" you will be flagged as a drinker and your rates go up. It's total BS but it happens...so just say no. If you used to smoke 15 years ago...yea don't mention that. In reality it won't affect your health, but the insurance companies will screw you on the rates.
2) Make sure nobody in your family has anything that is hereditary. And by making sure I mean don't go asking. Ignorance is bliss...and saves you money.
3) If you've had surgery within the past two years your rates will be high. If the surgery is something that leaves your life totally unchanged (e.g. you may have been stabbed, and the surgery was purely cosmetic) then after two years you can re-apply for health insurance at a lower rate.
Realize that healthcare is going to be expensive, but not outrageous. I looked at some healthplans for myself, personally, and the rates were the same as going with a group plan from work....the personal health insurance is much better.
Depending on where you work (more so in small companies) the plan the company offers is actually a rip off. One company I worked for had the mother of the owner as the Agent. She made sure the plan offered was a poor plan with a high premium. The reason she did this is because health insurance agents make a good monthly commission. A 100 person company can easily give a health insurance agent around $2000-$3000 a month payout. So other then getting denied health insurance you should be able to get a better deal going at it on your own. I know this because I used to sell health insurance and saw the commissions paid out.
I had surgery under two years ago. As soon as my two year mark is up I plan on going personal. Same rate ($160/month), better insurance.
I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
Unfortunately, party affiliation (or these days it's more likely self-defined labels like "conservative" or "teabagger") define where you stand on health care more than a person's own experiences within the health care system. Yes, fixing it is polarizing... but many on the right believe we have the best system possible, which inherently means any attempt to fix it is undue government intervention in their lives, and the smallest reform is an encroachment on the free market system. The people who stand to lose most if/when reform passes have successfully convinced enough simple-minded people, and even some otherwise intelligent people, that Obama is Stalin reborn and he's out to get them.
Nevermind the fact that we haven't actually had a free market system in the US in over a century.... some people have romanticized the free market as having no flaws, forgetting the lessons we supposedly learned that caused us to create regulations in the first place, first with railroads then with financial markets. But we have a generation of baby boomers and jonesers who never knew an unregulated economy, and they portray it as idyllic.
loads of bitching going on here, certainly justified. Health Care costs in the US are very high. meanwhile, the OP is asking for input. I compared costs for individual plans here: http://www.ehealthinsurance.com/ and my local chamber of commerce. then went with a plan from ehealthinsurance, read all of the fine print, made sure that I understood it all (a few phone calls were needed). It was tedious as hell, but like any of the programmers and engineers out there can tell you about a complex problem.... you have to resign yourself to sorting it out and identifying the variables, prioritizing what is important, then make an action plan to solve the problem. I am an individual, in good health, income is OK, so I set my deductible at $2500 and max out of pocket at $5k/year, $20 copay on visits. I pay about $210 per month. I know for sure that I am screwed if something heavy (cancer, spinal injury, etc...) comes along, but I had good experience with the plan 2 years ago when I got all busted up in a crash and needed mri and loads of xray and some pt. no complaints. hope that helps.
We can't do what virtually every other first world democracy has done (i.e. provide taxpayer funded universal medical coverage).
Yes, the USA sure is "special."
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
The US has been pillaging health care and education for years to fund it's overseas military adventures. They've shed the government of the responsibility of keeping markets competitive, the middle class is largely destroyed, and the top 400 households in the US have seen their tax rate go down, and income skyrocket. We are basically in the same socio-economic boat as pre-Revolutionary France.
So decades later we have a extraordinarily stupid populace, saddled with debt, but their only source of information are the corporations that are robbing them blind. They've "won" the debate by repeating lies, and even have people called teabaggers marching against their own values, for reasons they cannot even define. (Really, is there any better place than America for political irony?)
It's a cycle that will only be broken by major catastrophe. I was hoping the oil spike and the collapse of the market would be it, but it looks like it's going to get much worse before it gets any better. God knows I'm not sticking around for it.
... to force someone who wants to start up his own business to squander his time with concerns like this. Given the amount of taxpayer dollars spent per capita on healthcare in the U.S. compared to other western countries, it's certainly not an efficient use of taxes either...
"I thought they were the dominant species..."
Please, please, tell the Europeans about this. Our media try all the time to convince us that private is the best and socialised healthcare is crap.
People complain about our healthcare system all the time, they don't realise how worse it can be. The private corporations are taking over. We still have a solid healthcare system, but stuff like public-private contracts are rising, with disastrous financial consequences for the State, and loss of service quality. Now they're talking about giving the freedom to opt out of the public system, or choosing your private provider at the expenses of the State. If we don't stop this madness we'll be like the USA in a few years.
Correction: It is 7.5% of your adjusted gross income. Not 2% as I stated.
If you can't afford to help your countrymen get health care, how can you afford to fight multiple major wars and lower taxes at the same time?
The only problem with the Republican viewpoint on government spending is that it doesn't make any fucking sense.
this is the hero... of canada... his foresight and ideas at that time..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Douglas
Honestly, that's the most ironic thing about American "conservatives"
They see themselves as center, and that any viewpoint deviating from their own is far to the left. Frankly, there's an element of truth to it, but only because nothing exists further to the right, so left is the only direction to go... still, they are unrelenting in their assertion that they are mainstream, center, and they know just the way everything should be with their so-called common-sense approaches to governance (or, more realistically, non-governance.... unless some gay guy winks at them and makes them uncomfortable enough to make some wingnut legislation to prevent it from happening again). They leave no room for compromise, because their opinions aren't opinions at all... they are undeniable god-given facts which are beyond question or reproach.
I agree with those who've urged you to stay in your job. If you're hell-bent on leaving, be prepared for anything ranging from smooth sailing to big problems. It depends on your current health, your family's current health, prior health issues, age, location, occupation and the phase of the moon-- well, maybe not quite that.
When I left my cushy NASA gig in '94 (big mistake in $$ terms but much less bullshit) to work as a consultant I was able to get great coverage through a professional society (IEEE in this case). If you're a member of such a society find out of they offer it; if not it may be worth joining one. I had a great plan, but as the society's US member pool declined, the benefits grew worse. First was an across-the-board deductible increase to $5K (mine had been $2500). When I turned 50 a couple months ago my premium shot up by $300/month, making the annual cost a very large sum *before* I'd see any benefits.
As an official old fart I joined AARP (you know, that group that tries to make anyone over 50 seem cute and cuddly?) to apply for its Aetna plan. I have a herniated disk in my neck and asthma (but am otherwise in very good health) and I was denied coverage. They were honest-- the rep said if I had either one, but not both, there'd be no problem. I've tried a couple other carriers with the same result. In the old days they might have covered me with exclusions, but evidently they don't do that any more. Fortunately for me my wife has good coverage through her employer, but if she were laid off we'd be in trouble after COBRA ran out.
So, depending on your circumstances, these are the kind of things you might be facing. I certainly understand your desire to leave the corporate world, but if your family is depending on your plan for coverage, don't do it. Good luck, whatever you decide.
I don't think you'll have a problem finding people "willing" to pay for good health. The problem is that very few individuals and small companies are "able" to pay. Big difference.
As someone who has watched several family members suffer needlessly with worsening chronic conditions that could easily be treated in any other modern civil society, I can only say I am baffled by our country's insistence that our system works. It doesn't, and it's killing us.
Individualism, entrepreneurship and compassion have become the least "American" values in the world.
Sure, you will have a plan. A contract too. And you will pay loads of cash.
But getting anything for it? Pshh.
General rule: There is always a term in your contract that states that you get nothing, when interpreted by one of their employees. ;)
The only recommendation I can make, if you want to live in the USA, is to found your own health insurance company. :)
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
Even if all seems to go easy as pie you are still vulnerable. For example if you are in excellent health and your wife and your children are also perfect your rates will only be a pain in the rump. But God forbid that any one of you has a medical issue that just might be costly in the future as you will be dropped like a rock or your rates will be so high that you were wish you were Bill Gates.
And it gets worse. In some states you can easily die if you can not pay. There is no real safety net in some states and I suspect that in the states that normally do offer aid that they are offering far less during these hard times.
Now here is the really twisted part. If you have an emergency as defined by the hospital and you have to be admitted your insurance can dictate what you get for care. But if you have no insurance and are poor the care that you get may be far better than if you actually did have insurance as the doctors are not restrained by your insurance limits. The catch is that things like cancer are not qualifiers as an emergency. So you can rot before getting care.
The only answer that has any hope of working is single payer, government provided, health care. As long as the medical industry can reach into your pocket, the insurance companies pocket and the government's pocket the system will remain screwed up. In essence you can be a slave to your job simply over the medical insurance issues.
You can try a site like ehealthinsurance and shop various plans. The two most important parts are to know what type of coverage you want, and then to shop around.
As I said, I'm all about making money and I'm all about industry making money, but profiting off the misfortune and ill-health of people is the worst kind of dickery.
No, that's probably just the second-worst kind of dickery. The worst kind of dickery is profiting off causing misfortune and ill-health. You know, like Blackwater, KBR, Lockheed, Boeing, and a bunch of other companies that Ike warned us all about 50 years ago.
I am officially gone from
So you are making an argument for reform? Such as allowing for the payments of insurance premiems with pretax dollars? I'm with you. It's a great idea.
I am, however, not for the monster that came out of the house -- or the vile monster that came out of the senate.
> Meanwhile, Congress sat on it's hands and did almost nothing to help
> deal with the costs which were spiraling out of control.
So NOW what can we do? Kick the ineffective Democrats out? Last I heard, and I'm only being mildly partisan here, the Republican plan was to remove restrictions on medical and insurance industries. I can agree that some regulations are getting in the way of doing things more cheaply, but I don't think that's the real reason we don't have universally affordable health care.
When it comes right down to it, you get what you measure. The positive measurements in our society are things like GDP, the Dow, and the NASDAQ. Statistics of unemployment, poor health, etc are bad measurements, and for those you do a combination of "shoot the messenger" and hide the statistics. A decade or two back, my brother said that outside of its military, the USSR looked more like a third-world country. Sometimes it seems that the US is aspiring to the same goal.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Check with your current employer's benefits provider. A lot of them have a special plan that they let people who were previously covered by an employer's group plan join. Often the cost is much less and no medical questionnaire is needed. The kicker is you have to sign up within a short time after you lose your employer coverage, e.g. within 1 month.
Sadly I didn't discover this until much later when I went into contracting, so it was too late for me to do this at my last employer's health insurer. If I'd known I would have signed up for it immediately. So do your research and find out beforehand. If your company's insurer doesn't do this you may be able to find a different insurer who will does; from what I've seen most of them don't seem to care if you were previously with someone else.
Disclaimer: I'm in Canada, these types of plans may not extend elsewhere.. (Oh and despite what so many others in this thread seem to be saying, not all healthcare is free in Canada. True if you fall and break your arm you won't have to pay for the surgery or hospital stay, but (generally) you will have to pay for the ambulance, resulting perscriptions, physio after the fact, the time you take off work, etc. Those costs add up, and that's why we also have health private plans here.)
For those marking this flamebait -- I'm not surprised. The GP was wrong. I called him out. He admitted it -- yet you mark me flamebait? Says a lot about you and what you think about the truth.
One thing that I have not seen mentioned is MIB ... no, not the Men In Black. Medical Information Bureau, although they don't use the full name any more. www.mib.com This is a medical reporting agency much like the three credit reporting agencies which insurance companies, hospitals, and doctors have access. If you have a "record" in MIB, you will not be able to get private insurance ... period. Want to know if you have a record, you are allowed to request a report much like a credit reporting agency. Not too many people know about this. I only found out after I was refused several times for insurance and during my conversation with the agent, they screwed up and mentioned it.
Seriously.
The whole healthcare thing is a scam, which sorta works like this:
1) Insurance adjuster says they are changing plans, so your company has to enroll everyone again.
2) Insurance company threatens said company who bought plan for employees with exhorbitant rate hikes if they do not take the plan.
3) You can't make any claims for the first 6 months on the new enrollment.
3) Rinse and repeat every year or two. The reason? Insurance companies want that 6 months of free payments where they basically don't have to do jack.
Health Insurance, next to Wall Street is the biggest running scam right now in the US. Even if you do have corporate insurance, it is typically so bad, if you lost it you wouldn't be that much worse off anyway.
Half the time the plans don't pay for services they say they do, and if you do manage to get a claim from them, they will find a way to not renew your insurance.
For profit health insurance is just that. For profit. That means they make the most money by not insuring you.
Sounds like a awesome system doesn't it?
Unless of course your sick.
I really do not know what all the fuss is about losing corporate health insurance. It sucks anyway, and if you make any claims they will drop you or force your rates so high you can't pay.
Just go to the emergency room and if your illegal immigrant you don't have to pay anything anyway, if not just file for bankruptcy and go on disability like everyone else.
Better yet, since your not employed or not working their I would SERIOUSLY consider moving out of the country.
The USA is not a republic any more and all of our representatives wipe their arse with copies of the constitution. Every kid born today is a slave to the wealthy elite in the USA.
They only people that have stood up to these bankers have been Iceland'ers. I would consider moving their.
Who knows, maybe the banner of freedom will rise again in that cold far off little island.
-Hack.
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
So that $1200 difference is ? Well your company pays about the same on top: another $2800 (taking it to $4000). Then add copay of what? $1000 a year for a family of four. $5000. 9.6% tax difference means an average earnings of 6000/0.096 $52,000.
Average earnings in the States over 50k?
It is even more laughable because - in Germany at least - the public healthcare and the unemployment insurance both were introduced not by some socialists but by conservative Christians when Germany was still a monarchy.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
I agree that the current system is horrible. Some people from the groups you disparage have put forth solutions. One that I suggest is to actually allow competition. Let health insurance companies compete across state lines. I have no idea what effect this would have, but why not take a year and see? As I see it the alternative is to support an all out nationalization of the system. Government programs are not easily removed. With that in mind isn't it in our best interest to try every free market solution before nationalization?
I do not expect more government involvement to solve this issue. If you think about it, the current situation could not exist without the support of the government. Large ins. co's have branches in every state. Small ones don't. One way to keep down competition (and prices high) is to lobby congress to make it illegal to offer coverage in states where you don't have a physical office. The first step in the solution should be to remove the government's support of the large co's status quo. Government and big ins co's are not rivals, they're partners. Asking the government to step in and take things over would simply reinforce the big insurance co / government partnership.
My suggestion is easier to implement, does not involve government take over, actually removes some laws and might just bring prices down. Now I'm wondering why you cannot see that.
IF IF IF you and your family have no pre-existing conditions, most major carriers will take you. I have tracked my costs here in California and they are going up 12% per year so be prepared for that. I have Kaiser and they treat me no differently for being self-insured. Of course the coverage is month-to-month so theoretically I could be dropped at any moment. Good luck!
Who's we? I knew plenty of people who trusted Bush regarding Iraq, indefinite detention, waterboarding, warrantless wiretaps, the Valerie Plame leak, and many other things. The issue with conservatives isn't distrust of government, but distrust of non-Republicans. Most conservatives I know had zero problem trusting Pres Bush to decide which human beings deserved habeas corpus, trial by jury, etc. Most conservatives I know have zero problems with "big government" when it comes to marijuana (medical or otherwise), pornography, prostitution, gay marriage, etc. I don't know any conservatives railing against farm subsidies, no-bid Haliburton contracts, or Blackwater mercs making tons of cash.
Anyone who is a-okay with indefinite detention without trial or waterboarding but thinks that government paying for surgery is totalitarian isn't conservative--they're just stupid, liars, or stupid liars. You have to see through the BS conservative myths about conservatism. Neither neoconservatives nor social conservatives are small-government conservatives, though both will lie through their teeth about it. Conservatives didn't bat an eyelash at Bush's spending spree, nor Reagan's back in the day. They're lying. No one who supports indefinite detention without trial, waterboarding, or for that matter even capital punishment is actually a "small-government" anything.
My problem with conservatives is not that they're conservatives, but that they're liars. The same goes for their BS about character and morality. They get apoplectic over Clinton's BJ, but Gingrich, who is still feted and admired, had an affair even as he participated in Clinton's impeachment. If the issue was morality, and not politics, they'd have ostracized Delay and Gingrich. Their moral outrage is faked, and ultimately nothing but cheap opportunism.
I respect actual conservatives, but truth be told I know less than a handful. Plenty pretend to be when the Dems are in office, but it's easy to smoke them out. Just murmur "medical marijuana" or "legalize prostitution" and all talk of government getting off our backs sort of goes by the wayside. I can't begin to express the intensity of my contempt for these people.
What a thread.
I went through this about 8 years ago. I'm assuming you're in the US. My advice is look into HIPAA and COBRA, for the transition. Also, some professional organizations have group insurance plans for members (mine did).
You *could* move to another country, but that seems unnecessarily expensive. Much better, if you already know you want to strike out on your own, is to find a business partner in the same situation, and then the two of you start the business together. Two separately covered individuals counts as a group, and group health insurance is a) easy to find and b) quite cheap by comparison to private health plans. I know this, because I left the corporate world (where Multimegabigacorp paid for a part of my health insurance premium) and started my own business (with a single other business partner), and I actually *cut* the cost of insuring my family (me, wife, 2 children; medical + dental, but no vision). Private health would have been 3-4 times as expensive. And I have the same coverage! Alternatively, you can try starting your own company as a franchise or subunit of a larger company that gives you access to group benefits - but the key in the US is to be a business, not an individual. Small businesses really do get the best tax breaks. Good luck.
What does "starting out on my own" mean? Does that mean you're going to make a startup company?
If so, you may have options, depending on where you're located. I participated in a startup company in Pittsburgh, PA, and what we did... there's an organization there called "The Pittsburgh Technology Council" that lets multiple small tech startups pool together for purposes like this. Here's their page on health insurance:
http://www.pghtech.org/why-join/member-benefits/council-employee-benefits-group.aspx
Try to find a similar organization in your own area, they may be able to help.
The solution is to not leave your corporate job.
You see, this is why the republicans are opposed to the principle of universal health-care. If you didn't have to keep working for a corporation in order to have suitable health coverage, then you'd be able to leave your job to strike out on your own and start your own business; giving your bright ideas a chance to thrive in the open marketplace. Something like this runs counter to the "rags to riches through hard work" that the republicans like to hold up as a fundamental principle... oh, wait!
Look into:
National Association for the Self-Employed: http://www.nase.org/Home.aspx
I contracted for quite a few years after leaving my Large Corporate Job, and got my family insurance from a local agent who worked for one of NASE's insurance partners. It was a bit pricey, but on the other hand it covered me in TX and my wife in NM with no argument, something that my CORBA provider wouldn't even consider.
It seems like there are a zillion comments relating to health insurance dogma or 'Go to Canada' or 'go to the UK.' I won't get into how health care SHOULD work (beyond one point that I consider to be quite simple) but will try to answer your question, since I'm in the same boat.
I am in business for myself as a software guy. One day soon we might have an employee or two, but even then our situation won't change too much.
There is really only one thing you can do: go to eHealthinsurance.com, plug in your info and your zip code, and hope your zip code is a good one. Right now I have the misfortune of living in New York State. If I lived in PA, DE, or CT then my insurance would cost anywhere between 1/4 and 1/2 of what I pay now (north of $300 and I'm healthy and young), but New York has one of the most highly regulated insurance markets in the country, either up there with or right behind California. New Jersey is also terrible.
Depending on your income and your situation, there can be benefits to living in a heavily regulated insurance market, but for the most part, if you run a small business or otherwise are a contractor rather than an employee, you're out of luck when it comes to affordable insurance if you are in a state like NY that is very hostile to the insurance industry.
New York screws you two ways because not only are all your choices expensive, but there aren't many choices to begin wtih. What I really wanted was a health savings plan where I could put X amount away (ideally pre-tax, but whatever) and spend it on routine care, and then have insurance for catastrophic stuff. I don't mind paying out of pocket for small things because small things are going to be less than (or, at worst, as much as) my $300 monthly premium anyway - I've had my policy now for three years and have probably made one or two claims on it for a couple hundred bucks worth of stuff, but I've been lucky and haven't needed anything worse. There are plenty of states out there that allow or even encourage this. But in heavily regulated NY and CA, the insurance market needs my buy-in not to balance out my own claims down the line, but because politicians insist on things like demanding that insurers keep on unemployed/COBRA customers are reduced premiums or even no premiums for a set amount of time, and so I end up paying inflated rates.
So if you're lucky, you're in a state that does a better job than NY or CA or NJ in terms of looking out for you (since it's not like total deregulation is really ideal either) but isn't driving out the insurance companies and therefore limiting competition.
WSJ had a good piece about this a few weeks back (subscription required):
Wall Street Journal Wellpoint CEO interview
My two cents about the health care debate going on in other comments is just this: if I could buy insurance from any state, almost all my problems with health care would go away. I encourage you to go to eHealthinsurance and just plug in different zip codes for your neighboring states. Try Connecticut (a pretty good state for health insurance, relatively speaking) and then New York. Then PA or DE. Or Texas. The discrepancies are amazing.
Wow. Really? Our media in the US is all the time trying all the time to convince us that socialized health care is best and private is crap. If we don't stop this madness we'll be like Europe in a few years.
Just call up your local insurance guy and he'll hook you up. Individual health insurance is really quite cheap. Oh wait, you said you're married. Uh, yeah, you're out of luck then... Insurance here the USA actually IS dirt cheap for single males (I've gone on and off my own health insurance several times whilst moving among jobs). However, it's expensive for females and absolutely outrageous for families. Having kids makes getting insurance almost impossible unless you're independently wealthy (and don't need insurance).
Notice how mostly only the EMPLOYED are targeted and insured by the health corps. IE. If you are ALREADY HEALTHY ENOUGH TO WORK, you are almost guaranteed Health insurance. SKAM !!!!
When did employee benefits such as health care become the norm? Instead of everybody purchasing their own? If everybody always purchased their own, do you believe the market would support such prices? I suspect they became the norm after some gov't legislation. Probably a bill "fixing" a problem that didn't exist.
because this will allow you to transition in most cases to ongoing individual policy coverage after the COBRA coverage period expires. Otherwise you will be looking for individual policy coverage as a buyer without existing coverage. Insurance providers regard gaps in coverage as one more way to deny your application. Regardless, be prepared for incredibly high prices, relatively poor coverage, and no protection whatever against the pre-existing condition issue.
If you live in the only first world country without a social health care system, then you can move to Canada. You are also able to move to any other first world country, but in most other countries you have to learn a additional language.
If you live in a non first world country, you are most likely in trouble, because most 1. world countries won't let you in until you have a job. However, if you are an IT expert of some sort, you can get a job in many fist world countries, because we all have a shortage of manpower in this area. Preferably move to a country with functioning labor unions (e.g. France or Germany not the USA). In these countries you get:
- General health care (state driven)
- If you are sick, you still get your payment
- you get 20-25 workdays off with payment (in Germany)
- If you get laid off and you have work for several years you get money from the unemployment insurance
- In Germany for example: You have to pay for a health insurance institution, but your employer pays almost half of you health insurance. You have not to pay more money if you have kids or a wife/husband or a wife/husband and several kids. And in case of an unemployment, you pay less.
- In the case that you are really, really poor you get state money for your living, for your kids living etc. and of course health care is included.
On the other hand you can refuse supporting socialism (which means that we care for each other) and go to the one and only free country.
BTW: Have fun with your (a)cute appendicitis. And while all these socialists go to hell, you go faster to heaven.
Last I heard, and I'm only being mildly partisan here, the Republican plan was to remove restrictions on medical and insurance industries. I can agree that some regulations are getting in the way of doing things more cheaply, but I don't think that's the real reason we don't have universally affordable health care.
I'm sure that streamlining the regulations will help a little, but I'm not convinced that regulations have contributed to the cost significantly.
My real question is why didn't the Republicans propose these changes when they had more power and when they had a friendly president? They saw the problem, and what did they try to do to help to contain costs back then?
This isn't exactly a new problem. My health insurance premiums have been rising by $1000 a year for a long time. The average health care plan costs $14,000 a year for a family. Eventually my employers will be unable to pay for this coverage.
Each year the insurance companies cover less and less (My family has typical needs).
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
Wow! You're all such a bitter bunch. The poster that claimed that we don't trust our Government was 100% right on.
I went for about 10 years with no insurance. Granted, I'm single w/no kids, but I did run into a few medical problems. I just went to my local clinic and it didn't cost me anything.
When I found a job that offered health care, I signed up. Last year I discovered a lump in my neck which wound up being Medullary Thyroid Carcinoma, which I've had 2 surgeries for, and the 2nd surgery also took care of an Adenocarcinoma on my left salivary gland. 2 rare forms of cancer, an autoimmune disease, and the latest is uterine fibroids. $33 every pay check and a deductible of $2500 a year and my insurance 100% pays for anything after $2500. I paid $1700 for the first hospital stay, but $0 for the 2nd surgery, including hospital.
I would never trade my PPO for Government run healthcare, because as we know, they can't even manage Medicare. I could have died of my cancers if I had to depend on the Government to decide if I needed treatment or not. We all know how quick it is to get through the DMV don't we?
My option was to find a non-profit health insurance company for my health insurance. Make sure that you do not omit anything in the application. For children you will most likely need to go over their medical records with a doctor/nurse, because sometimes doctors or nurses will write something down and not tell a parent or guardian. Also if a child has been to a ER go over those records also.
When I did this, I hooked up with a group like the National Association for the Self Employed. (http://www.nase.org). They were able to provide group coverage for individuals at discounted rates. This is because the average health of the self-employed is significantly better than in other groups. It has been more than 10 years since I did this with nase, but it was a very positive experience. You can look at other "Fraternal Orders" like Thrivent or other group insurers and see if they have a similar program for self-employed. This is not a specific endorsement of these groups over others. YMMV
You are unique, just like everyone else.
whose job is to deliver profits to shareholders, protect your well-being and your health? i think you would call those "corporate death panels" (snark)
why can't you see the plain common sense solution most every other industrialized nation has seen on this question?
the free market is NOT the solution to this problem. some issues, like utilities, best serve the people as quasi-public entities. ever hear of enron? privatization and the marketplace are NOT the solution to every problem in this world, dear free market fundamentalists
i recognize every bloated inefficient bureaucratic bullshit you can imagine about government run healthcare. and it is still hands down better than any healthcare system capitalism can devise, simply because the very idea of a capitalism-fueled healthcare system is a self-contradictory term. the very nature of capitalism is to drive profit, which means it must by definition of being capitalism, minimize the care you receive
wake. the. fuck. up.
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
If you have prescriptions or a chronic condition like diabetes, move to somewhere with socialized medicine (seriously). If yuo're pretty healthy, give the HSA a shot.
Here's the thing about healthcare - it's only stupid expensive if you're uninsured. That sounds odd, but it turns out that if you don't get negotiated rates with providers, they will charge you an outrageous amount. Often the "rack rate" for a procedure is between 3 and 10 times what large payers like Anthem have negotiated. A $2000 exploratory ultrasound in the hospital might only be $250-$300 allowable charges once Anthem applies their discount. Wart removal? $200 rack, $40 negotiated.
The HSA has two parts - you pay for your "routine" healthcare, but at the Anthem (or whomever) discounted rates. Often you get a physical for no charge each year. If you mess yourself up, or you contract some serious problem, you pay out up to your deductible (usually $3000-4000 for an individual) and - this is the good part - the insurance company picks up 100% of your bills after that. And for all this, your premiums will be about half what they would be under a co-pay plan, plus you get to put away money tax free.
I'll tell you, If you get hit by a bus, that 80/20 plan you have with your employer will eat you alive. It's very simple to rack up $100k in medical bills for a major life event.
Now, it's not perfect. As an individual, your insurer has the chance each year to decide you're too expensive and cancel your ass. (This is where group policies are better, but for healthy people will double your premium) Also, there is no defined prescription coverage - you pay what the insurer would have paid. For "regular" prescriptions, it's often LESS than the oh-so-advertised $4/prescription that many chains have now. For name-brand drugs, though, you could be in for serious costs. So if you have maintenance meds, check to see what the insurer's negotiated rates are before you jump.
Personally, I like the HSA. I get to get whatever care I want, I pay discounted rates for what I consume, and if I have a stroke or a heart attack my maximum out of pocket costs are going to be capped pretty low. And those costs - it turns out - I get to legally hide from the IRS if I'm a saver. Quite honestly - if you and your family are healthy - you can likely cover your whole family, plus the maximum IRS deduction - for the same amount as a group plan would have cost. After two or three years of being healthy, you should have enough in your HSA account to cover practically any major medical catastrophe with little to nothing out of pocket.
And, hey, isn't that really what insurance is about? Protecting you against the major loss?
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Though wholly unrelated, I had a conservative uncle tell me this past Christmas when I was home visiting my family that he "Didn't believe in Life Insurance, because he thought it should be a sad day for everybody..."
I thought it was funny.
I wanted to share my latest experience in the Canadian health care system. Last October my wife was diagnosed with breast cancer. Within a few days she was in for surgery. One month after the surgery her chemotherapy started. She has had 4 chemo sessions so far and only two to go. Her surgeon and oncologist both are specialists in breast cancer and our oncologist is also the head of the breast cancer tumor board in our province. There are numerous programs to deal with the physical, emotional and social aspects of her cancer, not only for her but for myself also. Everytime we have appointments with our doctors we are never rushed and they always want to know if there is anything else they can do to help. So far the only medical expense we have been billed for is $48 for a two night stay in the hospital because we chose a semi-private room. We haven't even had to use my work health plan for anything yet because it is all being covered by our provincial health care system. Even 75% of the prosthetics are covered by our gov't. I call them foobies;> And when it comes time for reconstruction that is also covered. I guess the point I am trying to make is that there may be some longer waits in Canada for non-urgent issues but in my experience whenever it is an urgent health care matter you get into the system fast. Also the scary thing for me is that most of the cancer related books we have read are from the US and there is always at least one chapter on managing the financial side of cancer and negotiating with your insurance company. I can't even imagine having to deal with that kind of financial stress above all the other stresses that we have been dealing with. This is the kind of care that the people of the US should be demanding from their government.
Many years ago (1993), I was faced with this issue. I joined the CincinnatiUSA Regional Chamber (of Commerce) which had a group plan for members. My insurance premiums were 60% of what my previous employer paid and I got better coverage. The annual dues for the Chamber were less than two months' insurance premiums. With no pre-existing conditions, my family was accepted without any problems. However, since then they require that companies have two or more employees to participate so that may no longer be an option.
If I used a sig over again, would anyone notice?
or tell your wife to do so.
I do wish we could go back to how medicine was a few years back...where you didn't depend on insurance for EVERYTHING, it was for emergencies (something catastrophic like a heart attack or car wreck). In those days, costs weren't too outrageous, you paid for your routine care, usually with a family physician you had for most of your life. That indie GP doctor could and often would charge based on a person's ability to pay.
The HMO's and bean counters with insurance co's kind fscked that up. I think we could go a long way to having the best of all worlds if we could first allow medical insurance to be sold across state lines. I'd like to see the Geico gecko pitching medical insurance just like he does motorcycle insurance. That competition alone would help drop prices. Make it easier for private individuals to band together to get group rate insurance.
And lastly...make it MUCH easier than it currently is, for everyone to be able to open and fund a Health Savings Account (HSA) pre-tax. Make the requirement to have a high deductible go away...that way, people can save year after year (with savings rolling over) for their routine medical care. I love the HSA...and I've often used that with doctors, when telling them I'm paying for the procedure or office visit rather than insurance, they usually cut me a 15% break on the price right on the spot.
The part about pre-existing conditions...that I'm not sure how best to handle. If we *did* have to have a govt. sponsored thing to take care of those that were uninsurable, that might work..lump them in with the Medicaid people maybe. I really don't want a public option because of what it can turn into.
The current nightmare of corruption and inability to contain costs that are Medicare and Medicaid right now, are perfect examples of how the govt. can fsck health care up.
Frankly before they can even start looking at socialized healthcare here in the US, I'd like to see them clean up the Medicare/Medicaid mess they currently have.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
I'm self employed and I was turned down for several individual plans due to some minor pre-existing conditions. However, Colorado requires insurers to offer group plans to business groups of one or more. I have a company plan and the only person in it is me. I pay around $350/month to cover myself with a nice blue cross PPO. If I ever hire anybody, I'm all set to offer them insurance at an OK rate.
Also, you can take the expensive COBRA route for about 18 months (maybe a year?).
Go ask an expert in your state.
I get a bit sick of the hyper-polarization of politics these days, particularly when someone has a very practical problem like wanting to leave the corporate world and is scared about his family's health well-being. Enough of you pulpit-pounding blowhards, on both sides.
Unlike most of these folks, I didn't really know about this myself, but are likewise interested in this for similar reasons to you - I hope to get out of the corporate world at some point in the next few years and had the same question. What I found was more encouraging than what many of these folks would have you believe. Unfortunately, I also found the the options appear quite regional, so my answer will only help you get looking at it for yourself, unless you happen to live in Texas, just like me.
The most wonderful finding I came across, for Texas, was this: http://www.txhealthpool.com/
Basically, it appears that in my state this issue was tackled by the state legislature, and they set-up a state-wide health insurance purchase pool for people who fall through the cracks in the current system (e.g. If you're eligible for company-insurance, you can't buy this). In has multiple deductible/co-insurance levels to choose from, and also has a prescription drug plan too. It's not too expensive, sounds about the same or less than what my company would pay for individual coverage for myself. If you have a local equivalent, this might be just what you're looking for...if you don't have too many dependents.
The other big findings I came across that is worthwhile were a battery of health insurance cooperatives whose existence was made possible by state legislation about 5 years back. Some examples of the types of coops this allowed for: http://www.tdi.state.tx.us/health/lhcoopdefintyps.html
In short, I think if you do some research at the state and local levels, you might find similar programs for your area which would help. I know I feel much better about the prospects, now that I know there are better options for me in the future besides simple individual health insurance and all the risks that entails.
I quit my job and I buy COBRA. It's not cheap.
No, I will not work for your startup
That's a silly question considering the statement that you followed it with. Don't know if you are aware or not, but there has been talk by the present administration of taking that deduction away (ironically to pay for universal health care). The other thing is that your health care expenses including premiums need to exceed a certain percentage of your income. I did not qualify for the deduction and I had over $6000 in medical expenses last year, and make under 100k anually for a household of 4. So meeting the requirement is not all that trivial. I'm not convinced that sticking with the corporate world and voting republican is the answer (I might be persuaded to say hard line conservative), but I can tell you that what's been tried so far sucks mightily. For the record I'm not in favor of the government taking over health care, but I do think we could institute some sensible legislation that might solve some of the problem. Do away with the pre-existing condition clause, cap law suits, do away with malpractice insurance, and create a malpractice 3 strikes and you're out policy. But of course Obama isn't going to do any of those things because they would actually reduce costs by taking it away from the lawyers.
I don't believe in karma, I just call it like I see it.
Where are these "most Americans"? I've never met anyone personally who likes our health-care system.
Often there are insurance programs run by a state government or state medical association that is available for a reasonable cost. WPS in Wisconsin is an example. You just have to do your homework to see if such a thing exists where you live.
I'd gladly pay what Canadians are paying, BECAUSE IT IS MUCH, MUCH CHEAPER.
In the past ten years I've twice been eligible for coverage through COBRA, which is always cheaper than an individual plan. The first time, at a relatively low paying job (~$13/hour), COBRA would have cost 47% of my net income... if I'd had any income. (COBRA allows you to to continue coverage under a former employer's plan.) IOW, at this relatively low paying job, one close to the national average income, the tax rate could have increased by 226%, and it would still cost less than the cheapest form of private health insurance coverage.
The second time, while making $72k --higher than the average salary of a law school grad these days-- COBRA would have cost 21% of my former net income. (This after legislation to reduce COBRA payments.) The second, cheaper time around, my taxes could have increased by 60%, and it would be cheaper than the cheapest form of private health insurance coverage.
Here are the figures, see for yourself.
2002
earned wage: ~$13/hour, Gross Income: $27,040,
Taxable income: $19,490 (tax bracket 15%, taxes of $2923)
Net income (taxable - tax): $16,567/year
COBRA payments: $650/month, $7800/year, or 28.8% of taxable income
COBRA = 47% of net income
2008
earned wage: ~$35/hour; gross income ~$72,000
Taxable income: $46,987 (tax bracket 25%, taxes of $11,746)
Net income (taxable - tax): $35,241/year
COBRA payments: $616.05/mo.; $7392/year.
COBRA = 20.9% of net income
Does something look wrong with these figures? It should. Even after the "reduced" COBRA rates, private health insurance at its cheapest costs about as much as rent on a 1BR apartment.
One way to get group insurance (and other benefits) as a consultant is to run your consulting income through Solo W-2 (http://www.solow2.com/). They take a cut (a fairly modest one). Downsides: their plan is expensive and they only want as employees people with substantial consulting income ($60K up).
The US system is designed to prevent skilled workers from going out on their own. The health insurance system is the most difficult hurdle, then there is the tax code that excludes software developers from having the 'safe harbor' aspects of contractor work. (This was one of the arguments of the suicidal aircraft pilot in Austin).
Well, frankly, I don't want socialized medicine..I don't want [thing which doesn't happen], or [other thing which virtually never happens] (possibly based on my age, etc).
Fixed that for you.
FGD 135
The resistance to it (outside of pure ideological) is coming mostly from people seeing how other federally run programs work or, more accurately, don't work. The US has tons of government "things" that just don't work, are a big fat waste of time and money, say for instance, the entire federal department of education, and the war on some drugs. We got by swell when the fed dept edu didn't exist.
As to medical, as an example, talk to some older combat vets how their federally run health care has been handled. For every one good story you'll hear ten horror stories. For instance, I have a good friend who had to wait over *thirty years* for the government to admit that yes, he did in fact have pretty nasty dioxin poisoning from agent orange. He then got a lot of back disability and some proper care. Not like his obvious bad chloracne he had the whole time was any clue to the docs there...
Health coverage in the US used to be cheap and affordable for most, even with low paying crappy jobs. I mean I distinctly remember this. I'll skip prices, mostly because you won't believe me, and just relate hours worked, 5 hours a week at a lower paid blue collar job covered it fully. Not mid middle class or higher, lower near entry level wages. It changed to way more expensive after medicare and medicaid got started.
We could stand some health care reform here, but European or Canadian styled just isn't going to work very well. And especially in this economy where they have been hell bent for leather to kill off wealth creation manufacturing jobs. No money=I don't care how many laws they pass, they won't be able to afford it. The US is *already* freeking bankrupt now as it is. Just *servicing* the debt we have now is hugemongous. We just don't need a single penny more government expense. We need to get a handle on that before we go thinking up more new ways to spend money. We need real wealth creation JOBS as the first ten priorities before we need anything else from the feds. Not service jobs, not more government employees, solid real wealth CREATION jobs.
Cheaper healthcare here could be garnered a number of ways, right off the bat, open up the dang medical schools, get those costs down, and start pumping out GPs, and get them in little towns all over, so people don't have to rely on expensive hospital visits for minor stuff. Maybe come up with a new classification for entry level minor care doctor that is an easier and cheaper schooling option, a first call care guy. Get more nurse practioners out there, which are similar. Open up insurance to more competition. Open up the generic drugs. Open source ANYTHING that uses one penny tax dollars for research. Make that open source viral. Stop letting the pharmcos get away from shifting one minor molecule on drugs to get perpetual patent extensions.
Stuff like that. I even thought a big national daily lottery with half the proceedings going to pay out the winners and the other half to fund open source medical research would be spiffy. I bet they could rake in tens of millions of bucks daily just with that, all voluntary. How about X-prizes for actual *cures* instead of symptom treatments?
Well, frankly, I don't want socialized medicine..I don't want the govt. telling me what Dr. I can see, or what tests meds the Dr can give me (possibly based on my age, etc).
That's not how it works. "Socialized medicine" means government funded. It doesn't mean politicians make health decisions. What right-wing talk radio wind-bag gave you that retard idea?
I do wish we could go back to how medicine was a few years back
The profit motive guarantees that won't happen. The best you can do is attempt to fix it by removing the profit motive.
because my health care insurance company must spend so much paying a small army to post totally false stories on websites to keep the gullible gullible.
Lets do away with the teachings of Jesus, who called out for help for the poor and sick and recognize that corporations simply can't afford it any more. It cuts into profits.
Down with Christianity. Up with Corporate Profits!
"Uh, if you pay for your own insurance and file a claim, where do you think your insurance company acquires the money to pay for your claim? "
They mostly get it from investments (the insurance industry world wide has a portfolio in excess of 3.5 trillion dollars). Basically what happens is that the insurance companies take everyone's premiums and invest them in various markets and ideally make money off these investments with which to pay the costs of insurance claims. There are some tax advantages to this as well. Part of the reason why premiums have gone up in the past few years is that the insurance companies investments have not done so well, not that they are paying out more claims.
This concept is called float.
http://www.fool.com/personal-finance/insurance/2006/12/05/insurance-industry-basics-float.aspx
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
"The conservatives don't see the government as the body to be providing health care because it does not employ free-market principals"
No they prefer to wait until health care premiums are 95% of their income and 95% of the entire US economy. After that, they will deal with the problem, by eliminating Christianity and all that "love thy neighbor" and "help the poor and the sick" and "allowing the meek to inherit the earth" baloney.
Do away with Jesus and profits will soar!
After all, what good are a bunch of "un-productive" poor aging people to a society that judges its citizens on the basis of how much they own?
Makes one wonder if Jesus does return on judgement day, if will he be so nice to the new "blind man".
I did some quick searching a month back. In Maine, for private single person health insurance, there is very little choice, and what few choices there are, are very expensive. Also, for insurance companies that do operate in Maine, they offer limited plans.
There is no Aetna, little Anthem/Blue Cross/Blue Shield, little Assurant, no Cigna, no UnitedHealth/Golden Rule, no Humana. A health insurance searcher doesn't work, either: no eHealthInsurance.
We have a free state health care system, and a private health care system, and they both work (from my own anecdotes, and our health stats mostly rank better than the US).
Private health care (i.e. health care beyond what the state provides) is cheap (unless you are below average income), available and it also works. An 'expensive' all-options private plan for a single 40 year old with an unhealthy lifestyle but no pre-conditions is about USD30 per week - try out the calculator http://wellbeingcalculator.southerncross.co.nz/OnlineQuote.aspx (I hope that it is accessable from a non-NZ IP address). You can get a quote by selecting a plan and answering 4 questions:
PS: We have a simple tax system too: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1558016&cid=31225696
Disclaimer: I am from NZ and I do want US immigrants because those that move tend to be smart and motivated and that helps our economy!. Don't take my word for it - ask other US citizens that have moved here.
Happy moony
That's not how it works. "Socialized medicine" means government funded. "
And the govt. WILL have to figure out ways to save money...meaning they will at some point start deciding what is and what is not required to for you based on your worth to the govt. If there is another way, please, tell me how it will be done?
It will be much too expensive to give everyone everything they need for healthcare throughout their lifespan. It will have to be regulated. If not how I fear it will be...then explain to me other methods this will take place.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
I'm merely making the argument that there are good reasons to be unhappy with the current health care system in the US.
The reason most people are happy with their insurance is they're not directly footing the bill.
And yes, I'd rather see piecemeal health care reform then one huge lumbering hulk of a package also. The creation of Healthcare Savings Accounts is the only time I've seen anyone from any party take on the health care issues without going off tilting at windmills, for whatever reason.
Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
"We have it all as* backwards here... These politicians, they say the same thing over and over and over again... Health care decisions should be made by doctors and their patients, not by the government... Well now I know that the decisions are not made by the doctors, the patients, or the government... They are made by the insurance companies" ~ John Kramer (Jigsaw), Saw VI
The point is not the concern it causes for people. The point is that the tax system distorts the health insurance market by arbitrarily favoring employer provided plans. Thus, there is not much market for individualized plans, because most people have employer provided plans. So if you are in the unenviable position of having to buy insurance for yourself, you face an uncompetitive market with few options.
It makes absolutely *zero* sense for employers to provide health insurance. The only reason our system works that way is because of our tax code. Do you want your employer to provide your car insurance? How about your car? Your house? Your groceries? Maybe your employer should just make all those decisions for you.
It makes no sense. It hugely distorts the market. It is a big part of our current health care problem. John McCain wanted to fix it. He lost. As a result, the "reform" currently being discussed in Washington doesn't fix the root of the problem.
I sprained my ankle the other day really badly while crossing the road...didn't have to think twice, just went to the emergency room, x-ray, doctors visit, sure about a 1 hour wait because a couple of people in front of me were in waaaaay worse state...at the end, they even gave (read: _gave_) me a pair of crutches and said "if you can just bring them back when you're done that would be great"...nothing to sign.
I've lived in the U.S. before, and now I'm back home in Australia and it saddens me the worry and stress that the health system puts on my friends that are still over there. If you get sick, you shouldn't have to think about how much it'll cost you to get well.
You get sick in Australia, someone helps you, period. If you have money you can buy insurance that gives you perks like private rooms with cable and stuff like that, cosmetic dental and surgery cover (which isn't covered by the health system) and things like acupuncture and sports equipment (preventative stuff)...but your basic right to be treated if you're sick is protected for all.
Do the doctors make as much as in the U.S......probably not, but a resident at a hospital will make about $200kpa....a general practitioner about $280kpa....a consultant (specialist) about $500kpa-$700kpa...and highly specialised skills like surgery, anaethetist, rheumatology etc etc are $700kpa+ up to a few million a year...but seriously, how much money do you need?
And I don't know one single doctor that does it for the money, so it's not a big deal. And because the system isn't geared towards money making, you end up with doctors that are there because they give a sh&t, not because they want to make money. Even plastic surgeons over here tend to do it for altruistic reasons, i.e. they do the boob jobs to fund cleft pallet surgery and stuff like that.
The most important thing America will do this century is socialize it's health system....or the biggest dis-service to it's citizens will be if it doesn't
Though, as an aside, some people actually do leave the US because of healthcare. Many more would like to, but can't afford to move any more than they can afford their healthcare premiums (some of my friends fall into the latter category).
Wait ... so maybe if we get rid of the leeches on the health care system, everybody's cost will go down! Seems like we finally found a way of fixing the system!
Perhaps you should look into a non profit health insurance pool:
http://www.healthinsurance.org/risk_pools/
Canada is your answer. Free doctors. End of story.
It appears that most of the replies to your question are actually rants on health care, so I'll see if I can be more helpful.
You didn't say where you live but my experience is in the USA. I am single and purchase insurance only for myself.
I was in a group plan sponsored by the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers which blew up--there were a small number of very expensive cases and the rest of the group gets to pay for the increased cost. (This is true even for "non-group" plans but the degree differs. There is always an insured pool even if the "group" is, say, the population of your state.) My premiums shot past $600 per month and I bailed.
I quickly found ehealthinsurance.com which is an amazing site where you can compare all of the available plans for your state in a table form--kind of like a good shopping site for, say, TVs. As you may know, it is illegal for insurance companies to sell insurance to people out-of-state, so that is why you have to shop by state. As far as I know, _all_ of the available plans were listed on this site--123 for my state. So all that is left is to pick one that works best for you (and your family).
You will have to pass the pre-existing conditions test. If you are normally healthy and have been for a while, this won't be a problem. You will have to answer lots of questions about your recent health for the company to decide if you have such conditions. I recall that they went back n years where n is a small integer (2 or 3???). Minor stuff is OK--they are mainly looking for more major conditions. I don't know if pre-existing conditions automatically rule you out or increase your premium payments. This is probably not a good place to lie because if you get caught, they can drop you.
Once you get covered, you had better not get sick and then try to move to another state, because you will have to re-apply with an insurance company in that state. If you get sick, you are a prisoner in your state until you once again become well for n years. (Note that I am not an expert in this area and I have not consulted with my own policy to see if it is actually true.)
You will discover versions of basically the same plan offered with different deductible structures and premium payments, per insurance company. If you have the means to cover a large deductible and/or expect to be pretty healthy, you can opt for say $2,500 annual deductible and get a good plan at a really decent price.
(This is the basis for the Republican plan to fix health insurance in the U.S. You or your employer would annually contribute an amount equal to a large deductible to a Health Savings Account which accumulates earnings tax-free like an Individual Retirement Account, IRA. You are then motivated to shop for cost-effective health care because you get to keep any part of the HSA that is not spent towards the deducible. This is the market mechanism which is claimed will reduce costs. In a year when the deductible is spent, then the insurance kicks in. Certain incidental items would not be charged against the deductible but instead are paid in full or in part by the insurance company. For example, office visits and preventative care would be either fully covered or covered with a co-payment.)
Finally, you might consider how many physicians an insurance company is contracted with in your area. I'm not sure how you find this out but the insurance companies might be helpful in that regard. (I have found that my insurance company is surprisingly responsive and helpful when reached by telephone. All other things being equal, you will want a company that has contracts with lots of physicians. Even then, you may well be referred to a specialist only to be told that that particular person is not contracted with your insurance company. You will then have to ask the referring physician for another referral.
Europe is far left, eh? Ever been to Italy? Or even here in the UK? Mainstream politics is centre-right now, thanks to Murdoch setting the news agenda. Many of us who want a decent, fair society are thinking of leaving. Luckily the EU means we can go and live anywhere else in Europe any time we like. Thank God for the EU.
To begin with, keep in mind that all insurance is designed to make money off of you; it is a business, after all. Over the long run, you will almost always end up worse off (financially, that is) by buying insurance. So, why do you still want it? Simple - you need insurance to cover any instances where you can't pay for treatment yourself. How large this amount is depends on how much you earn and how good you are with your money.
Imagine you don't buy insurance, and instead you take the same amount of money (as your premiums would be), and put it in a bank. You save that money until you need it for health care. Odds are that account will never get emptied. This is the premise that the insurance companies count on for their profits. But they're dealing with a large number of cases, so they can expect their results to conform to statistics, while you're dealing with only a small number (you and your family) and don't want to take the chance of being a statistical outlier. So you probably don't want to do this.
So instead, imagine you buy relatively cheap insurance, and put the leftover (the difference between what you do pay and what you might pay for more expensive insurance) into the bank. Then you pay for the things you can, but anything really expensive, the insurance company ends up covering. You're still likely to keep a lot of money in that bank account, but you're also covered in case something bad happens.
Turns out, this can be a really good idea. So good, in fact, that the government wants to help you do it. If you have the right insurance plan (a high-deductible plan), you can open a special account that lets you save and spend money tax-free for health reasons. This is called a Health Savings Account, or HSA. It's similar to an IRA, but you can spend the money whenever you want, as long as it's for health-related costs. If you can qualify for one of these, you probably ought to do it.
So what are the down sides? First, you have to qualify. I don't remember all the rules about it offhand, but there are numerous reasons why you might be unable to get an HSA, the most notible one being if you have an opportunity to join an existing health plan, such as through work. Second, you have to be able to handle your money. The HSA helps, but some people just can't manage their money properly, and might land themselves in trouble if they can't keep anything saved up. Third, you have to be able to deal with insurance companies. This last one isn't really any different from any other insurance, though.
And the up sides? Lower insurance premiums. A tax-free investment (any interest earned is also tax-free, and you never have to spend the money if you don't want to). Still having coverage if something major happens. Not having your mother nagging you about how she worries because you don't have coverage - some people call it peace of mind. Also, you will still get any "benefits" of being part of a health plan (eg. lower prices for doctors visits, cheaper prescriptions, etc).
So, that's it. I hope this helps.
I thought making profit was a corporations job, not the governments?
The government has no incentive to save money. There are no fat bonuses waiting for government employees who excel at saving money.
Now, if you were talking about a for-profit corporation, I'd see your point. They'd happily deny you coverage if they see the slightest chance of weaseling out of it just to improve their bottom line.
They use American drugs but refuse to pay their fair share for them. Drug companies give them the drugs for cheap and then make their money from the high prices they charge Americans. Americans almost fixed the problem when we started imported drugs from Canada. Unfortunately, the drug companies have great lobbyists who got bills past outlawing the practice of importing drugs from Canada. Americans need to wake up politically and start making Congress work for us rather than for business.
Same thing happened to a buddy of mine. When his kid was born, he called the insurance company as directed by HR. They call center rep told him, "Congratulations, we just need you to send us the birth certificate and his new SSN. Call us back when you get it."
He did. He then got a letter a couple of months later from HR informing him that because he did not add his child to the plan immediately, the baby would have to wait a year for the next enrollment period. In addition, since his child was not covered by insurance, they were not going to cover the baby's hospital bills. He had to get a new job to get his kid insurance. It was an incredibly stupid move on the part of the company too, since he took paying customers with him.
Another guy I know had the insurance company demand proof that the child was actually a dependant. Huh? Naturally confused, he called the number. The CSR told him he had to submit proof this was a "legitimate dependant."
"What, you mean like a DNA test?"
"The proof is your responsibility."
That one finally got straightened out, but you'd be amazed at the weasel tricks the insurance companies will go to these days to avoid their legitimate responsibilities.
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
Rather than reform a system that connects health insurance to employment in an age in which employment is highly fluid, our politicians decided undertake a huge power grab with little regard to quality of care or costs.
Virtually all Government-run health care systems offer poor care compared to what American are used to seeing. If the hapless Democrats manage to ram this through they will probably never recover politically. Plus the rest of the world depends on innovation from US companies, most of whom are targeted for extinction as the designated "villains" by the Government. Where will the refugees from the rest of the world's socialized medicine go?
The whole thing is a mess.
COBRA, which is always cheaper than an individual plan.
You couldn't possibly be more wrong. Corporate insurance plans are (typically) designed to get low-risk members (ie. singles and married w/o children) to subsidize the cost of high-risk members. COBRA simply forces the insurance company to allow former members to remain in those plans. COBRA exists as a stop-gap to A) force a company to give you coverage if they could otherwise refuse it, and B) give you a way of keeping your previous coverage while looking for something better. You should NEVER view COBRA as a long-term option.
Seriously, maybe he should think about doing just that. Nothing to do with being lefties or righties, just worth considering.
Nothing wrong with private corporations in health care. The market works fine when it is allowed to work. Of course, if you want universal healthcare, you have to socialise some of it.
It's funny, but the USA with the 'all private' (but certainly not free market) health care and my country with its socialised health care suffer from the same problem: a small-ish cartel of insurers calling the shots. This leads to ever-increasing premiums and a nightmare of bureaucracy to account for every penny spent.
Obama's plan is not going to solve the problem; it will likely make things worse. What you need to do is break the hegemony of the insurers, and kick them back into their kennel where they belong: providing insurance, nothing more, on a truly free market. And we in NL need to do the same. The previous minister for health care tried to open up the market to European insurers, but the Dutch insurance companies made sure that this plan never came to light.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
I challenge any of the Healtcare nay-sayers and fear mongers that think a government-supported healtcare is bad, to GIVE UP their luxurious health plan just for ONE year.... I am pretty sure that the experience will open their eyes. .... hmmm
Btw, the US is the only Western country that allows its citizens to go broke over medical bills
The government has plenty of incentive to save money.
Healthcare costs are rising faster than GDP across the western world, it's either sve money, or increase taxes, which is a sure fire way of losing the next election.
There's a hell of a lot of money wasted on people who are going to die in the near term anyhow, sure it's tough to say that we can't afford to keep granny going, but there's got to be some ratioinale behind it all or all you end up doing is continually patching up the same crumbling sand castle.
Please find me an insurance plan that costs less than 2% of my AGI, lets say I make 2x the US median income.
I will wait.
COBRA *is* always cheaper than an individual plan.
Big surprise: an AC makes a unsupportable blanket assertion. Nothing you said even addresses comparative price.
Go try to find private health insurance coverage that is cheaper than the very specific figures that I've provided. You won't be able to, because you can't.
I got a plan through Blue Shield of CA and it cost about $150/month. It was just as good as the one my current employer provides me with now, and I'm sure they're paying way more than double that. Thank you Socialism for making me pick up the slack despite the fact that I eat well and exercise.
It makes perfect sense for employers to provide health insurance because this creates a group of people with varying health. If left up to individuals, only sick people are likely to buy insurance. But it wouldn't make sense for a company to selectively hire only sick people. We still need to fill a gap for people who have been unemployed for long time or are running a true one-person shop. But employer-provided insurance should be covering 90% of working age adults. I don't know how McCain was planning to fix the problem for the other 10% who don't have income to buy coverage, tax deduction or not.
My husband and I are both self-employed and paid for our own health insurance policy for years until we realized that we were paying more for the monthly premiums than the insurance company was paying for our care - much more! We canceled our policy 8 years ago and haven't looked back yet. In fact we've found several ways of ensuring our family (which includes the two of us and our two tween boys)gets the best care available at prices we can afford. We barter, bargain, negotiate, shop around and do whatever it takes - it's just become a way of life for us. We've become much more aware of what goes into our healthcare and what comes out - in fact I believe that we get better care now than when an HMO dictated our health decisions.
In fact we've learned so much that I've written a book on it. BARGAINING FOR OUR LIVES - BY JENNIFER HEYNS is all about successfully navigating the world of healthcare without insurance. It's got great advice, stories and tips for finding the best quality care at affordable prices. People with insurance should read it, too - there's so much you take for granted when an HMO pays for things. You can see more about the book, including and excerpt at my site: www.JenniferHeyns.com and the book can be ordered on CreateSpace.com or Amazon.com.
Good luck to you!
Several post have bashed the "American Capitalist" system. I apologize for straying a bit from the original post, but I blame it on those who brought up Capitalism.
If we had a Capitalist Health Care system, we would NOT have HMO's, Medicare, or Medicaid. So for those of you who are anti Capitalist because you got stuck with a huge health care bill or received poor quality health care from the American health care system, go back and reread the definition of Capitalism and see if you can find the appropriate entity to place the blame on.
I've been a contractor and consultant for many years and I've had to provide my own insurance for many years.
COBRA = Up to 18-months at Full Corporate & Personal Payment + ~2% Administrative Fees
Just to let you know that coverage under COBRA is not always good since you have to pay your part of the premium, the company's part of the premium, and also an added administrative fee so you're paying an additional premium for coverage that is now costing you twice or much more.
Independent Coverage from Major US HMO (Aetna, Oxford, Blue Cross/Shield, etc.) = $1,400 - $1,800 per Month
For shits and giggles I decided to call and research the major insurance companies in New York state in the US and ask them about what it would cost to cover me individually and I got quote from $1,400 to $1,800 for the lowest priced HMO prices for a fully healthy 25-30 year old male, non-smoking, non-drinking, no-preconditions. These prices were direct from the provider themselves and I was surprised that they quoted me so much above what the New York State Insurance Department for Health Care Plans had listed on their web site.
Freelancers Union or Local Chamber of Commerce
Be aware that the health plans offered at least in New York State around the mid 2005's by the FreelancersUnion.org were not exactly cheap nor good, they offered HIP HMO which was the lowest rated HMO with the higher complaint count according to the NYS Insurance Department for Health Care Plans and they wanted $700 for individual only and over $1,000 for family. HIP had a series of corruption and accounting issues that were public and incompetence that wasn't but was know by folks that worked there, some were friends.
They did offer a pretty good "discount" plan for Dental by Guardian for ~$50 per month that did have pretty good rates for procedures, such as %50 off for a root canal and crown, and really low costs of $12 for composite molar fillings with multiple faces being done.
Now Freelancer's Union has expanded and they offer PPO 1,2,3 (Preferred Provider Organization = You pick your own doctor not from an HMO network) that are damn expensive at $300-500 for individual or $800-1,400 for family and HD $5K and $10K (High Deductible ~= Catastrophic Health Problem) plans that are still quite expensive at $200-300 for individual or $550-900 for a family.
I've been with and have used Freelancer's Unions dental plan but not the health plan and I did think that they offered such a great deal and savings. Their plans are expensive and they are not really a union they are a for-profit company that is just reselling you insurance! They do not run their business very efficiently or very well with multiple cases of screw ups every year when it comes time to renew the plans and select your new plans, such as two years ago when they didn't do re-enrollment for a whole month after the deadline since they screwed up. They run a fully paperless frontend for you but from the back office work they must deal with reams of it. Just be careful and weary of this so called "union" since they are not one!
Uninsured Option!
I decided to give up on HMO or PPO health insurance because it's just too insanely expensive at $900-$1,400 for coverage. That is more money that my biggest expense that is rent. It is an insane amount of money for a self-employed individual making due with a few clients and non-steady income.
The United States is a horrible place to live without be subservient to a corporation who holds their benefits and insurance plans over you like an indentured servant since if you start and family and decide to leave their good graces or are no longer desired you're in the path of bankruptcy for even non-lethal health problems or accidents.
I live in Australia, we have socialised medicine and I can go and see any doctor I damn well want, who will prescribe me what ever I need*. The government simply pays for it, you know like a health insurer but cheaper.
*over prescription is a serious problem, foremost it is the leading cause in developing super-bugs or anti-biotic resistant strains. Doctor know this, they also understand the human body has a very good immune system so many problems will clear themselves with bed rest or another non-chemical procedure (like certain types of exercise).
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Move closer to the Mexican border. Health and dental care there is 1/3 of the cost and the quality of care is comparable if you ask around and get referrals. This is why the city of Yuma, AZ triples in size every winter. It's only 15 minutes from Mexico and cheap prescription drugs and health/dental care.
The pursuit of absolute tolerance leads to the most rigorous and ludicrous intolerance. - REX MURPHY
There is no excuse for a wealthy, modern, industrialized nation not to offer a public health system.
Now wash your hands.
You can't really use emergency room care as a good indicator of overall health care system effectiveness.
Having worked in a hospital in the US, I can tell you that it is just a fact of life that sometimes a flood of people get hurt at once, and non-critical patients have to wait.
I don't know how your system works in terms of transfers, but (I assume) you should have been able to have the admission receptionist check another nearby clinic or hospital to see what their wait time would be like.
Lastly, I'd be willing to bet that average emergency room wait times are way higher in the USA than Canada. My logic being, all 47 million American's without insurance can only use the emergency room after becoming very ill, whereas all Canadians are insured and can get preventative treatment to hopefully stave off trips the the ER.
Citation needed.
If that is true, you are in bigger trouble maintaining a purely private health system. With public health insurance you have reduced operating costs due to no need for marketing, sales, corporate bonuses or dividends. With private health insurance you have the same costs plus marketing, sales, corporate bonuses and dividends. Pay attention to the last one, dividends, the primary drive of any private company is to deliver higher dividends (plus higher divs equal a higher bonus) so they can only do this in one of two ways, reduce costs or increase prices. Given a monopoly over distribution be it natural or artificial there is no impediment to raising prices.
So public health is cost + administration. Public health is cost + administration + sales + marketing + (dividends + bonus > last year).
I pay A$750 a year for complete cover (this is the Medicare levy from my tax, shock horror it's a separate line item on my return). How much is your employer paying, remember this may as well be taken directly from your wages as it's not coming out of the kindness of the employers heart (Read: if they could get away with not providing it they would).
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
"I was pretty sure that dislike of the US health care system was pretty universal regardless of party affiliation or position on the political spectrum"
That might be true, if misinformation wasn't flying around. But most republicans do not want it touched, and in fact, there is a steady media drum beat coming out of conservative talk radio, fox, etc.. saying how wonderful our health care system is. Google for this article for instance:
"What's Not Wrong with Health Care in the U.S.
by Roger Stark, MD
Health Care Policy Analyst"
It is complete crap if you have researched the issue yourself, but to the average low information voter, stuff like that is being passed around in emails and convincing many people I know that health care is just fine and dandy.
And without that misinformation machine, I would doubt that it would be such a polarizing issue, given that every single modern western country has single payer. Every...single...one... we have years of undeniable evidence of quality, affordability, and satisfied customers from all over the world...
I'm an insurance broker specializing in individual and group health insurance. The laws on individual insurance vary from state to state. Somebody's experience finding insurance in New York will be different when compared to somebody in California or Oregon or Texas or where ever.
Your best bet is to find a broker located near you, who knows the local medical groups, hospital and other providers, and who knows what insurance companies they work with. The broker needs to represent all of the available companies, not just a few. He or she should also have been in this business for a number of years...personally, I've been doing it for over 25 years.
Coming off of a group policy, you'll be offered the opportunity to continue coverage under Cobra. It's important to understand that Cobra is NOT a separate policy; rather it allows you to stay on your old company's plan as if you are still an employee. You can keep Cobra for up to 18 months. You pay what your old company pays for coverage, plus 2% for administrative expenses. If your separation from the old company is involuntary, then your Cobra premium is subsidized by the Federal government for a limited period of time - your net cost will be only 35% of the actual premium. This is by far the cheapest way to go. If your separation is voluntary, then you'll pay full freight.
Cobra is guaranteed. You can't be declined for any medical conditions. If you have a sick family member who is currently on your plan, they can take cobra, while you can purchase a different policy.
I could go on, but as I said at the beginning, find a good broker. He should be able to go over this with you and help you decide the best way to go.
I set up shop for myself, and found myself in the same position. My wife assists me in my business, which gives us two employees (actually general partners the way the business is setup). As a two employee company, we could apply for group insurance. The insurance broker I work with handles alot of the interactions for me. I was able to get a good price compared to an individual plan (about 30% cheaper) and with better benefits. I would suggest doing the same. Some insurers (Aetna) may make you put money upfront to get underwritten, but a good broker should be able to let you know if that's worth doing.
'food' processors. I put food in quotes because it is now so chemically and biologically treated that the stuff we eat from the grocery stores barely resembles what we used to eat even thirty years ago. (I'm 55 years old and I no longer shop at a supermarket because I can't.)
For example, McDonald's burgers and fries don't taste the same because the beef and the potatoes used aren't grown the same, aren't processed and aren't treated the same with the same additives as they used to be.
The crap they serve now all tastes like cardboard.
Its the triumph of packaging over the content.
Now agribusiness may consider that its saved the world by giving us the equivalent of Soilent, but at what a cost?
The epidemic of diabetes, obesity, childhood diseases like dislexia, asthma, (I'm not going to go through the Merck Index,) all have their root in the explosion in profitability by Monsanto and Cargill after the second world war.
There has been a cozy little bed made between the FDA and Agribusiness.
And if you think that big business hasn't got in bed with the various government agencies before, for their profits and much to your detriment, look at what happened to the L.A. public transit system and elsewhere.
Ford, Chrysler, G.M., Goodyear, General Tire and DuPont bought off the civil authorities to tear up the tracks, not just pave them over but to actually tear them up, so we couldn't use them again when shit like the various oil shocks tore through the fabric of the western world.
The insurance companies are companies first and health takes a distant back seat.
They aren't in the business of keeping you healthy.
They aren't in the business of paying for your needs when the shit you buy from agribusiness makes you sick.
They are in the business of making money and ONLY pay when they can't legally get away with NOT paying.
Health care is a COST to them.
The sooner you get sick, become unemployed and unemployable, fall off the rolls of insured and die, the better off they are.
The next election is going to be so much fun to watch now that corporations will be able to buy the politicians directly.
I predict that it will immediately become a cacophony of naked greed.
Government of the sheeple, by the corporations, for their own profit.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
If a government's first duty is to protect it's citizens, then how does providing health care not fit this definition? Especially given that there is define provable physical harm in NOT providing it?
Right, you can blame Obama for anything. For example, FARC in Colombia is entirely Obama's fault.
The US health care system has been terrible for years, the victim of being centred around the profit motive with secondary considerations given to the level of care but somehow through the miracle of nutter logic this is all Obama's fault. The mind boggles.
BTW, Singapore is incredibly expensive to live in, food may be cheap but rent is a killer, so are utilities.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
I'll support government-run hospitalization if somebody can name one thing they do well:
- Amtrak? Nope. Billions in debt, inconvenient to ride, and take longers to travel cross-country by train than by car.
- Post office? Nope. Billions in debt, and when they tried to streamline operations by eliminating Saturday delivery (a day that incurs losses, rather than profits), the Congress overruled them and forced the USPS to continue operating inefficiently and losing money.
- Medicare? Social Security? Nope. The number of retirees will soon outnumber the workers, such that in 2014, these programs will become bankrupt (not be able to continue cashflow, unless they borrow money from someplace else).
Yeah. I want the government to run my body.
Not.
Oh and my advice for the original poster: Virtually everyone who gets sick or dies is past age 60. I don't see any reason for you to waste money buying insurance when you're still young and healthy, and therefore get nothing out of it. Stop living in fear over rare events (like asteroids falling from the sky and hitting you on the head).
If it makes you feel more comfortable, get a high deductible insurance ($10,000 or more) where you pay all your own health bills except in case of catastrophe. I do that. I only spend $200-300 each year.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Wow, insurance understanding fail.
The entire freakin' point of insurance, and the way it works, is that enough people who don't need it buy it when they don't need it. If you want to wait until you're older when you will need it soon, while not paying into it your entire life, you are breaking the system. The cost of the sick is offset by the payments of the healthy.
If you want to try to game the system, fine. But the health insurance companies will be looking for any way they possibly can to deny you coverage when you come crawling to them at 60 (and rightfully so, you're trying to screw them and everyone on their insurance).
Tragedy of the commons, etc.
Unfortunately you have spent too much time listening to US mainstream media. The reality is that most Americans DO like their health care. In fact, it's not even close:
http://www.zogby.com/soundbites/ReadClips.cfm?ID=18967
"Among those currently insured, Zogby reports, 84 percent are satisfied with their current health care."
I have a family now, so I need to make sure we're going to be covered should anything happen.
Then I highly suggest that your wife get a full-time job that qualifies for health care. In addition, it will provide some income while your business starts up, or in the unfortunate event that it does not take off.
I was quasi-retired but the cost of health care for me and my wife and three kids was over $20k a year in California. Both my wife and I had been denied, her for a preexisting condition and myself for my weight. I eventually I got the expensive coverage after jumping through many hoops but worry that after any given year that they may deny coverage and I'll end up with a gap in coverage. It bothered me enough that I went back to work to get guaranteed coverage...
IMHO Americans really need to get past the solialist bogeyman that is preventing the implementation of a sane health system.
UHC here in Australia costs 1.5% tax on income, I can see whatever doctor I like, often without an appointment. The doctor prescribes whatever tests/pills I need without input from an accountant. I never have to pay more than $1200/yr for medicine, nobody cares if I have a pre-existing illness, if I travel to Europe I get reciprocal care from their governments at no cost to me other than said 1.5% tax. I have statistically better medical outcomes than a US citizen and never have to worry about medically induced bankruptcy. Currently government sponsered doctors are visiting every workplace in the country to offer free health checks as part of the preventative care provided by UHC.
I'm single with grandkids, I earn well above average wage and a back of the envolope calculation says my 1.5% covers 5-6 other Aussies I have never met. However I'm more than happy and proud to pay above my fair share since when I was a young dad the same system looked after my chronicly asthmatic son during the times he needed a hospital bed and specialist care, it also paid for his medicine and saved me from certain bankruptcy.
US citizens already pay more in tax per head for Medicare/Medicaid than Aussies pay for a full blown UHC. I think this is mainly due to the army of paper pushers the US employs to console ignorant people who think of socialised medicine as a government handout.
I'm not saying our system is perfect but it's run by health proffesionals and is demonstratably light years ahead of the US. It is supported by 80% of Aussie voters. It recieves true bipartisan support from politicians, any politician who dared to suggest going back to the previous US style system we had in the 70's would find himself unemployed at the next election.
In the end I really don't care what the US does with health system but having experienced both fully privatised and socialised health care my impartial advise would be to upgrade to a 21st century UHC system and ignore the corporate propoganda that is telling you socilaist death panels will kill your grandma to save a buck.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
The problem is, at least in the UK- presumably the same elsewhere, governments are getting ever more sloppy, coming up with new schemes that no one wants or gives a shit about, the schemes always over-run and end up costing more, so money has to be found and is taken from elsewhere.
So it's not that they have to make a profit, it's simply that they have to take money from the important services, to pay for their fuck-up pet projects.
So by "saving money", what they mean is that they're taking money from things people do want, to give to 0.0001% of the population some shitty little scheme that allows them to get away without having to work for a living like everyone else or something similar to that- that's the general pattern in the UK at least.
I hope your son carries a DNR on him, because that's what a responsible uninsured person would do.
Your son chooses not to carry insurance. If he has an accident, like say FRACTURING HIS ANKLE, and that fracture throws a bloodclot, which leaves him screaming in frantic pleading agony for a while before he passes out from the pain, then some spendthrift schmuck might call 911 and get him an ambulance.
Have you priced an ambulance ride followed by ER treatment lately? The last time one of MY INSURED and therefore RESPONSIBLE children ended up in the ER -- no ambulance ride mind you -- two hours of occassional treatment, a grand total of 10 minutes with a doctor, came to more than $3,000, paid for by my money.
But your clumsy, irresponsible blood-clot-throwin' welfare-queen son, just racked up at least 10, probably more like 20 grand of debt. You know what he's gonna do? He gonna declare bankruptcy and stiff that hospital on that bill, cause twenty-something kids who can't find a real job don't have 20 grand laying around. Then MY TAXES, MY MONEY are gonna get pulled in to cover the slack because your boy doesn't want to get up and go to work in the morning.
So, if he wants to redeem himself and stay responsible, he can at least carry a DNR rejecting care and demanding that the ER doc let him die screaming and solvent.
Wake the hell up, man. You're too old to keep buying this crap. Your twenty-year-old kid didn't wisely negotiate medical care with the hospital and force them to alter their billing practices. He was the recipient of some form of charity, but you're too thick-headed and vain to admit it to yourself.
And I'm glad he was. I'm glad he got the care he needed, and I don't mind that some of my taxes probably went to pay for it. I don't mind my taxes paying for your boy because one, I've got a working heart, and two, I understand the health of the herd affects my health too. A sick cow in a healthy herd will eventually make the whole herd sick, so I don't mind keeping your boy in good health, because in doing so I deny sickness a place to take hold in the herd I live in.
Let me put that in plainer terms for the benefit of the slow. If the busboy at your restaurant is sick, then you're about to be.
But hey, John, as someone right there beside you, let me tell you about your health. You ain't as young as you used to be, and you can feel it. You wake up slower in the morning, but you don't sleep as well. Stuff breaks, and it takes longer to fix. Trying to stay in shape gets harder and harder, and no matter how hard you work, you're still losing ground. You don't quite hear as well as you used to, but no one notices it yet. You ain't seeing quite as good, but you ain't gonna let on. You've had that scary moment when you couldn't quite catch your breath, even when you know you should have already.
We ain't even gonna talk about your prostate yet, are we? :-)
We're playing a good game, we got everyone fooled, but we get the scent in the wind. Dying ain't a theoretical possibility like it was when we was 17. Well, we think we got everyone fooled. Our wives know it. Well, mine does at least. Why do I get the feeling you're divorced?
Cancer. Heart attack. Diabetes. Stroke. That's what you and I got to look forward to John, and it's as scary as hell, looking down the barrel of words like that. Diapers and Dentures will eventually get us all.
Ain't it time we put down the macho bullshit and see if we can't take care of our kids yet? Two or three more decades, you and I are both gonna be gone, but our kids will still be here. Ain't it time we find a way to give them the same level of care we'd give to THE DAMN ANIMALS IN THE BARN?!
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
>>>IMHO Americans really need to get past the solialist bogeyman that is preventing the implementation of a sane health system
>>>
(1) When Tom Green, a Canadian comedian, developed testicular cancer he went to the Canadian government's hospital to have it treated. They told him he had to wait 9 months, so instead he flew to the U.S. and got it done almost immediately.
(2) When a UK actress went to get a PAP smear at age 20 (as a preventive measure and because both her mother and grandmother had cancer), she was denied by the UK Government's NICE (aka nasty) (aka rationing) organization. She was denied again at ages 21, 22, 23, 24. By the time she was 25 it was too late. She had cervical cancer. ----- And like Tom Green she was told she had to wait several months to get surgery, so she flew to the U.S. and had it done within a week.
These are just two stories, but I could post millions of similar stories. Government-run healthcare does not work any better than government-run trains or postal service or medicare or social security.
Also:
There's the consideration of individual property & labor rights. My neighbors overate, smoked, and/or drank excessively, which eventually led to the related diseases of being overweight, developing lung cancer, cirrhosis of the liver, heart problems, brain strokes, paralysis, and so on. Why should *I* have to pay the bills that result from these foolish life decisions? It's my money, not theirs. Let them pay their own damn bills for their own damn self-created problems.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
>>>Wow, insurance understanding fail. The entire freakin' point of insurance, and the way it works, is that enough people who don't need it buy it when they don't need it. If you want to wait until you're older when you will need it soon, while not paying into it your entire life, you are breaking the system.
>>>
Yeah.
Don't care.
I'll continue living without insurance until about age 60, when my health starts to decline, and then buy it. No sense buying ~$5000 worth of insurance when I'm perfectly healthy and only spend $2-300 per year. That's just money foolish.
.
>>>But the health insurance companies will be looking for any way they possibly can to deny you coverage when you come crawling to them at 60
Well if the Democrats are successful, they won't be able to deny me for pre-existing condtions, but even if they DO deny me, it's still not a tragedy. The $5000 saved over 60 years time, plus compounding interest == a heck of a lot of money. I'll simply pay out of my own pocket, and when I run-out of cash, then I'll die.
It's where we all end-up anyway... it makes little difference whether it happens at age 70, or 80, or 90.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
As layed out in my post "I'm alright Jack", frankly I don't give a flying fuck if ideologues like you refuse to listen and demand your god given right to pay twice the price for half the service.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
It's not foolish. Gambling is foolish, and that's what you intend to do. If you want to gamble, go to Vegas. Going broke there is more fun and less painful than gambling on your health.
THAT is one of my main concerns. If the US federal govt. can't do Medicare/Medicaid right (corruption, cost overruns, bureaucracy...) why would I even consider the possibility that they would do nationwide medical programs any better?
I just see it as one more large cluster fuck coming to the US tax payer if it passes. Not something that will help me in the long run.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
If you are self-employed or a habitual IT contractor you can incorporate then get your own health insurance through a trade association. Had MAMSI via the National Association of the Self-Employed for 6 years. Great rates, easy to deal with. With hundreds of thousands of members it was better than what some companies were offering. But don't wait around till a nationalized policy is available in the US.
If you had everything you wanted, you'd just want more.
Maybe I'm just being dense here, but I don't see why this is marked funny.
Perhaps because it is in fact, my situation less the employer, right now, with my premiums being crippling.
This doesn't make any sense. NICE doesn't make these decisions, a GP does. She could have gone to another GP if for some reason her own had refused to refer her, and it totally ignores the fact that there are private clinics in the UK.
Did you make up this crap yourself, or did you read it somewhere and mindlessly repeat it?
Igor Presnyakov stole my hat
It doesn't. It simply doesn't necessarily pay for the one you choose. You're free to pay a private doctor if you wish and can.
Again, feel free to pay a private doctor for whatever tests you wish. Dunno what's this about doctors being forbidden to give you medicine, this is the first I've heard of it.
So... private industry gets to pick the profitable cases, and the public pays for the rest? You profit, I pay?
Cheap and available to everyone?
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Well, fortunately for you, nobody here in the US is proposing government-run hospitalization, except for veterans.
There are no fat bonuses waiting for government employees who excel at saving money.
Says who? I worked for the US Federal Government for about 3 years, as a Fed employee (not contractor).
--I got a bonus every year to the tune of about 10% of my yearly salary.
--If I performed particularly well on a project, my boss could give me a little bonus right then and there on my next paycheck. Did a lot of Disaster Recovery testing that made us work well outside normal hours, so he just "gave" me $600.
Seriously.
Do what the corps do. Form a partnership, sole proprietorship or corporation. I published in a local newspaper and opened bank accounts in the name of the partnership. After three months with income into the accounts, and draws into the partner names, I applied for a group plan with a large insurance co of my choosing. Worked like a charm, I even disclosed truthfully all my pre-existing conditions since they can't deny individual coverage within the group. You can even have a group of two (you and your spouse). Yeah, beat them at their own game.
0.0001% of the population
vis. EDS
FGD 135
private healthcare also has +adminstrative-costs-trying-to-pry-money-from-insurance-companies.
FGD 135
Well, frankly, I don't want socialized medicine.
The US has more money spent on socialized medicine than any of the other countries being compared to it in this thread. You already have socialized medicine, and it's bad medicine. I'm not sure why paying 4x per patient is a good thing, when the results aren't statistically different from any other major country.
I don't want the govt. telling me what Dr. I can see, or what tests meds the Dr can give me (possibly based on my age, etc).
Yet that's what happens now in the US. The government tells you who you can go to if you are covered, and the insurance companies tell you who to go to if you are covered (And since the insurance companies are chartered by the government and heavily regulated, they are nothing more than privately-owned extensions of government policy). So you have that now.
I do wish we could go back to how medicine was a few years back...where you didn't depend on insurance for EVERYTHING, it was for emergencies (something catastrophic like a heart attack or car wreck). In those days, costs weren't too outrageous, you paid for your routine care, usually with a family physician you had for most of your life. That indie GP doctor could and often would charge based on a person's ability to pay.
It's *cheaper* to pay for more things. One preventative visit a year with a few regular tests that will catch some common and expensive things is cheaper than waiting until the person feels the symptoms and complains. So you want the method that costs you more than now.
The part about pre-existing conditions...that I'm not sure how best to handle. If we *did* have to have a govt. sponsored thing to take care of those that were uninsurable, that might work..lump them in with the Medicaid people maybe. I really don't want a public option because of what it can turn into.
I can't tell you how bad an idea that is. It's like public schools. They have a big target on them for funding and such. My stance is that I'd be for vouchers if any school that took them must admit all students that apply and can't ever, for any reason, expel a student, they must provide free bussing for students closer than 20 miles, must provide free lunches for those in need, and must take the amount of the voucher as full payment for those that couldn't pay more. No school would take them, they'd be poison, and they still wouldn't be as regulated as public schools with the boards and such. If you had the poor and expensive fall to the government, then you'd be paying many times more for care for those under care. You wouldn't be spreading out the payment over good, healthy people. That'll just make the program a bigger target. It'll be disadvantaged over the private choices, and used as an excuse to blame the government for waste.
The current nightmare of corruption and inability to contain costs that are Medicare and Medicaid right now, are perfect examples of how the govt. can fsck health care up.
The biggest problem is that they are torn. They are trying to make the government system work in the private system. An full overhaul should make that better, not worse...
Learn to love Alaska
I find that living next door to my doctor works pretty well;)
The person who pays the bill has all the control. We were stupid to let insurance companies take our money and start paying all our bills for us, and we'd be even stupider to let the government.
Insurance should be for unforeseen accidents. Things that cost over $5,000 lets say. Not for your viagra or birth control.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
I don't give a flying fuck if ideologues like you want to steal my money and spread it around.
If you want socialized medicine, get together with all the other people who want it and have your little party. But you won't do that because you want to steal from all the people who don't want it.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
The USA isn't all private... medicare and medicaid are massive insurers.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
One thing to keep in mind if you can wait and if you think you'll get laid off is COBRA. Under one of the Acts passed by Congress and approved by Obama, employers in most situations must pay 65% of COBRA premiums (vice the 101% former-employee cost formerly). I got laid off and my new employer's health care was going to cost $500. My old plan had triple the coverage and was going to be around $1200 a month. However, I researched, found out about the law, applied for it and started paying my 35% portion. It ended up being exactly the same amount. So instead of a $1000 cap per year on dental, I've got $2,500 for major and still more coverage for other dental procedures. Funny thing, both plans were with CIGNA.
You obviously have the attention span of a blowfly of crack. Look back up the thread and you will find I am already having a little party with 21 million other Aussies.
According to some of the posts here, the average premium for a US family is US$14,000/yr, here in Oz it's AU$1,500/yr for two working parents on average wages, half that for a single income family. In other words your little party is costing you almost 10X as much per head as mine.
As for "wanting to steal", I earn well above average wages and since I'm single my contribution pays for 5-6 other Aussies to have statistically superiour health care compared to a US citizen. But I don't mind paying more than my fair share since I have not always been so well off, it's a simple case of swings and roundabouts, that's the whole fucking point of ANY insurance scheme.
The worst part of your post is not the childish insults, it's that you genuinely don't realise how breathtakingly stupid you sound to someone who lives under a sane health system. - Let me spell it out for you. - Your are saying you want to pay at least $10K more than you need to so as to ensure your fellow countrymen get none of the $1-$2K you should be paying. That my ignorant friend only proves that a fool and his money are indeed easily parted.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Your two examples omit one crucial thing: What they had to pay for the treatments.
If you have the money, you can get any treatment you want as fast as you want anywhere in the Western world. The question has never been the availability or quality of care in the US but the affordability. What good does it do the average American if the best care in the world is available to him but he can't afford it?
A friend of mine is a republican in every way except when it comes to healthcare (he said that since he knows that we'll never get European-style healthcare here, he didn't even care about the issue at all when he voted). Why? Because he lived in Finland for two years. The taxation there doesn't kill people but they still get as good healthcare as in the US because they can save a lot of costs through less administrative overhead since there is no middle man deciding what is and what isn't covered. The doctors make the decisions with the patients. Medical bankruptcies are unthinkable. A visit to a doctor or a hospital stay costs 20 euros no matter what treatment you need. Any prescription drug costs 3 euros. And all annual medical expenses exceeding 600 euros are covered.
Other public healthcare plans may have let some down, but they should really take a look at Taiwan's. The biggest down side it seams is that the doctor's don't make the same kind's of salary, even by comparison with the change in cost of living (unless of course they're a specialist, but even then, it's not as much as they could make elsewhere.) I had a decent package that ate up about 15% of my salary, for only myself, and the co-pay was ridiculous. To fix half the problems at the dentist would have been 2 months pay, and it was only a few minor cavities. My grandmother had 2 types plus medicare, (medicade?) and for her to get mugged, and die in the hospital overnight was US$87,000 after insurance and other help had done their part. That's 3 times my father's annual salary.
Yes, some of the best healthcare does come from the US, but that more or less says that if it's a very specific problem then you're in good hands (for a price). But there's something to be said for adequate healthservice. My co-pay here is less than US$5, and that includes the medicine.
There are something's that simply can not become a business because it'll never yield profit. Medical technology is expensive and it's something we should share the burden on.
I bought an individual catastrophic health insurance plan from Assurant Health via my local State Farm agent. $5K deductible, the maximum they offer. I didn't bother with the HSA part. I pay under $1500/year. The really good part is that any work done in a hospital is covered in full, which I've made use of a few times so far. Everything else, I pay cash and see whoever I want. For oddball stuff like vision therapy (if you think you have ADD, look up Convergence Insufficiency and get tested) it's great to not have to explain to some bureaucrat what it is and get them to pretend to pay for my health care.
It's scary how conditioned people have become to having a third party (pretend to) pay for their health care. Most of the time when I try to convince people that they'd be better off under a catastrophic/HSA plan they just can't grok it.
The refundable tax credit plan that McCain proposed would have paired perfectly with catastrophic/HSA plans. Unfortunately our President spent $40M on attack ads against that proposal, telling people that it'd tax their health insurance... which was true, if you had a really expensive "Cadillac" plan that cost more than the tax credit was worth, "Cadillac" plans which Obama is now proposing to tax...
Whole Foods Market provides this type of insurance to their workers:
The Whole Foods Alternative to ObamaCare
Unfortunately the socialists reacted badly to his audacity to state facts that run counter to the Democratic Party line so he got into a bit of trouble.
what can be worse than having no health insurance and having to wait until you are in imminent threat of death before getting treatment? one of my wife's relatives went to an emergency room with a bursting appendix and sat there for 8+ hours in agony before being treated. welcome to the USA.
that's the reality for many americans. the people you hear from here are most likely employed in high tech and bought into a group insurance plan, as am i at the moment. it's great as long as you have a job.
the WHO rates the US #37 in the world, behind countries like the domincan republic and costa rica. still think our system is the way to go? like a lot of other things in the US, everything is peachy as long as you are well-off. if you have a run of bad luck or pull a bad lot in life, too bad.
Insurance should be for unforeseen accidents. Things that cost over $5,000 lets say. Not for your viagra or birth control.
Oh, do I see a puritan prejudice in this statement?
When a UK actress went to get a PAP smear at age 20 (as a preventive measure and because both her mother and grandmother had cancer), she was denied by the UK Government's NICE (aka nasty) (aka rationing) organization. She was denied again at ages 21, 22, 23, 24. By the time she was 25 it was too late. She had cervical cancer.
My grandmother flew to the Moon riding a pink unicorn. What, you don't believe it?
Because he lived in Finland for two years. The taxation there doesn't kill people but they still get as good healthcare as in the US because they can save a lot of costs through less administrative overhead since there is no middle man deciding what is and what isn't covered. The doctors make the decisions with the patients. Medical bankruptcies are unthinkable. A visit to a doctor or a hospital stay costs 20 euros no matter what treatment you need. Any prescription drug costs 3 euros. And all annual medical expenses exceeding 600 euros are covered.
Yeah, that sounds like living in hell to me.
No. "Insurance" should be for unforeseen costs, not something you get on a regular basis.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
Prepare for sticker shock.
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
And for both, you have the public health care system.
Hi,
You left a critical piece of the puzzle out -- what state are you in? Some states (like new york) have soem form of state sponsored insurance. Here is an example:
http://www.ins.state.ny.us/website2/hny/english/hny.htm
and something similar from Maryland
http://www.marylandhealthinsuranceplan.state.md.us/
While not every state is so forward thinking with luck you live in a state that has decided to enter some form of collective bargaining on behalf of it's uninsured citizens. Without this form of collective bargaining you will have few options that are not financially damming - especially if you get sick.
Note: Make your choice BEFORE you give notice as you will only have 60 days before your HIPAA waiver for preexisting conditions makes you uninsured for pre existing conditions .
Good Luck!!
It's Finland, ferchrissakes! If you claim that Finland is hell, then hell freezes over every winter! Do you know how much havok this would wreak?
1.5%? That is *fantastic* - you wouldn't pay more until you hit the 500k-1000k salary.
I'm Canadian, and I've seen plenty of failures: I know many people who had to go to the USA to get treatment for awful chronic problems, and so they wouldn't have to wait 6 months for a scan.
I found a lump in my breast in December. I got an appointment with a breast health clinic the next day for an ultrasound. The ultrasound was inconclusive, and they gave me a mammogram 10 minutes later.
I'd still be waiting for my ultrasound if I were in Canada. I'm fine: they were unconcerned about after looking at it.
Yes, the US system is expensive and exclusive, but I frankly benefit from that. What pisses me off is the amount which I actually still subsidize, and there's a lot more of that coming. I take extremely good care of myself, and not only do I have to share premiums with you fat yanks, but I'm going to be subsidizing you when you are too infirm to work when you invariably contract cancer or heart disease from your shitty lifestyle.
Yeah I have. European politics is to the left of North America whether you like it or not.
Om, nomnomnom...
Of course it is. I'm just saying it's not far left in Europe - the US is just pretty far to the right. Why do you think you're the only country that even debates whether state healthcare is a good thing? Europe is generally pretty centrist, while we're slightly to the right in the UK. That's as far as anyone can put such things on any 'scale' anyway.
There are no fat bonuses waiting for government employees who excel at saving money.
Says who? I worked for the US Federal Government for about 3 years, as a Fed employee (not contractor).
--I got a bonus every year to the tune of about 10% of my yearly salary. --If I performed particularly well on a project, my boss could give me a little bonus right then and there on my next paycheck. Did a lot of Disaster Recovery testing that made us work well outside normal hours, so he just "gave" me $600.
Seriously.
I'm pretty sure he's not talking about the types of small incentive bonuses that you are. He's talking about the multi-million dollar bonuses that insurance execs get by denying as much and eliminating as many sick people from their rolls as possible. If they can manage to cherry-pick the healthiest folks they make more profit. The sick folks end up with no insurance and get their health care in the emergency room where it costs the absolute most and it's on the taxpayers to cover it. Ain't our system great?
>>>Wow, insurance understanding fail. The entire freakin' point of insurance, and the way it works, is that enough people who don't need it buy it when they don't need it. If you want to wait until you're older when you will need it soon, while not paying into it your entire life, you are breaking the system. >>>
Yeah.
Don't care.
I'll continue living without insurance until about age 60, when my health starts to decline, and then buy it. No sense buying ~$5000 worth of insurance when I'm perfectly healthy and only spend $2-300 per year. That's just money foolish. .
Or you'll have a nasty accident or get sick from something you can't predict like say prostate cancer and you'll end up in the emergency room, where the cost of care is the absolute highest, and you'll have ridiculously huge bills you can't afford. Even if they manage to save you, you'll either be in debt the rest of your life, or more likely you'll declare bankruptcy and leave the hospitals hanging, which means that the taxpayers end up picking up the tab to a large extent. This is one of the big areas of waste that needs to be fixed, and the way to fix it is to make sure that emergency rooms are used for emergencies, not things that should be handled or prevented by regular care by a GP.
And even if this scenario doesn't happen to you, it'll happen to plenty of others out there that have the same screwed-up thinking as you, and we'll all end up paying for it.
>>>But the health insurance companies will be looking for any way they possibly can to deny you coverage when you come crawling to them at 60
Well if the Democrats are successful, they won't be able to deny me for pre-existing condtions, but even if they DO deny me, it's still not a tragedy. The $5000 saved over 60 years time, plus compounding interest == a heck of a lot of money. I'll simply pay out of my own pocket, and when I run-out of cash, then I'll die.
It's where we all end-up anyway... it makes little difference whether it happens at age 70, or 80, or 90.
The only way they're going to be able to prevent people from being rejected based on preexisting conditions is if we get universal coverage or at least something close to it. You have to spread the costs or you end up where we are now with insurance companies like Blue Cross and Humana jacking rates up by 20 to 40% because they don't have enough people in their system to cover the costs. Do you really think you're going to be able to afford health care in the future if we don't seriously overhaul the system? The way things are going now you'll be lucky if your savings will pay for aspirin, let alone in-patient care.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
That's not how it works. "Socialized medicine" means government funded. It doesn't mean politicians make health decisions. What right-wing talk radio wind-bag gave you that retard idea?
It was a full retard idea. Unfortunately no amount of healthcare can cure that.
Large print giveth, and the small print taketh away
Well, frankly, I don't want socialized medicine..I don't want the govt. telling me what Dr. I can see, or what tests meds the Dr can give me (possibly based on my age, etc)
No wonder people think a universal heath care system is bad if this kind of misinformation is out there.
I live in Australia. We have a universal heath care system that covers everyone. It is paid for via 1.5% of our taxable income (not all income, just the taxable component, and low income earners have an exemption so they pay nothing).
I can go to any doctor I want, anywhere. The scary 'Government' doesn't tell me to do anything whatsoever.
Universal heath care is not 'free' healthcare. Nor is it 'Government-run' health care (doctor's practices and clinics are still private businesses who are free to do whatever they want). The only difference is that a single payer (a Government department) ~pays~ for the treatment, rather than a random assortment of eleventy-billion for-profit insurers). It's not Government-RUN ... their role is nothing more than paying the bill at the end of the day.
The single-payer system is better because it's more efficient (less paperwork, less risk of non-payees, thus cheaper overall), and because it covers everyone regardless of their ability to (personally) pay. But doctors themselves are still running private businesses ... I can't emphasise this enough ... there's no difference from the doctor's (or patient's) point of view other than who pays. The treatment itself is not 'socalised'.
Also, as an aside - the existence of a universal system in this country hasn't killed the private health insurance industry. In fact that industry is thriving, even though technically noone ~needs~ to buy health insurance. They offer other perks like private hospitals, coverage for cosmetic/non-essential surgery, physio, massages, health spas and gym memberships, etc. So they are still doing good business. People are still willing to pay for these perks. So capitalism is still alive and well under such a system, there's nothing really 'socialist' about it at all.
That's kinda the point though - your money is ALREADY being spread around in such a manner. As TapeCutter said, you are already spending more tax dollars just for the existing Medicare/Medicaid systems, than people elsewhere are spending to get full universal coverage. You'd probably personally SAVE money if the US moved to a UHC system.
UHC is about making the system more simple and efficient. Getting you better value for the dollar you already spend. It is not about people stealing from other people.
I'll support government-run hospitalization if somebody can name one thing they do well:
Huh? Hospitals are still private businesses in countries with universal health care. The government isn't running the hospitals or employing the doctors. All the government does is pay the bill at the end of the day.
I think a lot of people in the US don't seem to understand that. The Government just PAYS. They don't actually run or manage the health-care system itself.
Since everyone is giving unrealistic options (i.e. move to the UK), I'll throw out, join the National Guard. You'll have the option to pay for Tricare, the military insurance program. It's cheaper than individual insurance and provides really good coverage. Plus you'll be serving your country and could learn some interesting skills, receive a bonus, etc. The downside is you'll be deployed at some point for a year.