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> Cite, please. Even a $5 cup of coffee a day and a $600 iWhatever per year only add up to ~$2000 per year. Over 40 years, that's $80,000. Can YOU live on $8,000 a year??

Check this out. This is going to blow your mind, and if you're smart, change your life. It comes out to not $80,000, but $733,637.22! Here's the thing:

The first year, you sock away $2,000 in your low-risk index mutual fund. At the end of the year, the money has earned you $180, so at the end of the first year you have $2,180 from that first year. You add $2,000 more from not buying coffee, which is $4,180. Over the next year, that earns $376 of dividends or interest, for $4556 total. Your money expands exponentially!

Even if you just put away $2,000 ONCE, then never add to it, in 40 years that $2,000 turns into $62,819.10. This is how most millionaires became millionaires - by putting away about $200-$500 per month.

Here's a calculator that makes it easy to compute the results of saving different amounts for different periods of time:
http://www.daveramsey.com/arti...

Since you mentioned a 40-year time horizon, you can safely use 9% as your interest rate. The market has good years and bad years, but over any 10-20 year period it's rather consistent - you'll get an annualized return of 9% over any long period.

I try to make really major purchases as close to me as possible for a variety of reasons which have been discussed by a variety of people ad nauseam but which mostly boil down in the end to being able to walk into a store and shake my fist at someone if I am dissatisfied.

Do you make a point to avoid buying multi-hundred-dollar products that are sold only online? For example, would you avoid buying a Pandora, Archos 43, Nokia N810/N900, or other pocket computer solely because it isn't sold in any brick-and-mortar store near you?

what's stopping you from collecting money via Paypal

For one thing, others in my family prefer to pay me with payment methods other than PayPal, as does my employer.

then spending it again?

Nothing because I applied for a PayPal debit card accepted where major credit cards are accepted.

Does he really use the word "beater"?

I'm not familiar enough with Dave Ramsey's show to know what terminology he uses, but it's evident from Google dave ramsey beater that fans of his Total Money Makeover program do use the term "beater".

Yes, you need some guidance [...] Usually the difference is obvious to any vaguely trained eye but you can't blame people for not knowing about cars any more than you can blame them for not knowing about anything else, where do you draw the line?

I agree with you that first time car buyers especially need guidance.

One's parents are supposed to help them out

And sometimes they aren't willing to. Say someone went to school for a career in a given field, but his parents are intent on making sure that his job is in their home state, and there are no good jobs in this field in his parents' home state. This is the scenario that I've been trying to reason through with Slashdot user CronoCloud over the past several months.

A lot of people are starting to pay in cash again simply to get out from under the oppressive thumb of the credit card cartel. It also helps with budgetary discipline, which is why guys like Dave Ramsey are preaching it to the people.

What sort of apologist BS are you trying to pass off here? Federal government spending is completely out of control. From Dave Ramsey . What would happen if John Q. Public and his wife called my show with these kinds of numbers? Hereâ(TM)s how their financial situation would stack up: If their household income was $55,000 per year, theyd actually be spending $96,500â"$41,500 more than they made! That means theyre spending 175% of their annual income! So, in 2011 theyd add $41,500 of debt to their current credit card debt of $366,000!

The irresponsible handling of credit has always been a mayor issue in the US. I don't know if their citizens should be proud that their government uses the same techniques as the average citizens.

"Many people"? Where is the evidence for this?

Also, the link you provided is owned by an organization that provides "biblically-based" financial planning services.

http://www.daveramsey.com/company/about-dave/

Yes the power company required an additional deposit but that was used to pay our first few bills. The cars were paid for with cash both were private purchases. We pay everything with our debit cards which is tied directly to the bank account. We have no credit cards at all. If we don't have the money we don't buy anything. so that means everything paycheck, I get paid once a month, we put a budget out of what we have coming in and what we need to spend. But we set priorities Food, shelter, basic utilities before anything else. It took a while to get where we are but we are not 100% debt free still have some old bills we need to address but we take care of the basics first. This is the website that we used to get where we are. It took a while and we had to make some hard choices. But it works. http://www.daveramsey.com/

I've used SpinRite a few times on drives with unreadable data, with about a 85% success rate. I've seen SpinRite mentioned about a dozen times today, but I have to wonder how many have actually purchased it.

I swear, I'm buying a copy as soon as I'm out of debt

For anyone interested in help with achieving exactly this, check out daveramsey.com. Dave's plan is not his own, he admits that up front. It's just common sense advice, motivation, and tools to succeed in life. And, for the record, I am not employed by him--I just believe in his work.

I still believe in the American Dream as it were, largely because I have lived it

Very well said. The opportunity to follow my own dreams, do the work that truly excites me and gets me out of bed in the morning, and eventually grow rich and empowered to really make a difference in the lives of others is precious beyond words, and still available in America. Necessary to that dream are the freedoms protected in the Bill of Rights - including the right to argue creationism vs. evolution endlessly into the night, without government interference. :-)

I don't care what the naysayers say, this thread just makes me so darned proud...

Slightly OT, but maybe it'll help somebody - Wihout making any claims about his politics, I've been following this guy's very simple personal finance plan, and guess what? No possibility of credit card info being stolen (I suppose someone could still steal my ID) since it turns out that with a little common sense and discipline, they are totally unecessary.

Turns out taking a stand for yourself is much easier than trying to get the government or a large corporation to do it.

Today, both parents need to work, and the kids work too (also in IT) and is hard to pay the bills.

I don't mean to preach, honest, but I've got to ask - what bills? To live, you need basic food, shelter, utilities, and whatever you need to support your employment (like a reliable car or a simple Internet connection). If you can't make enough to pay for that (about $35k in the USA, not sure in the UK) in IT, then you need to change jobs or self-employ.

I work 40 hours a week, no overtime. My wife stays home to run the household and volunteer to help the less fortunate. We have 3 kids, not one of which works. We have no debt (other than a mortgage), because we spend less than I make, give generously to church and charity, and save the rest for a "rainy day". I consider myself to be incredibly rich, because I have everything I want - but what I want can't be purchased with a credit card!

Hope I didn't offend - I don't know you, so I'm speaking only in general to encourage readers to consider "wants" versus "needs". Is a person happier with an XBox, HDTV, fleeced new car, super cell phone contract, an impressive house that consumes 40% of take home pay, and a stack of credit card bills to worry over each month? Or happier with the basics, a smaller house that fits the budget, a healthy savings account and growing retirement account, no other debt over which to fret, and regular opportunities to help those who are truly less fortunate?

And yes, I do listen to Dave Ramsey. :-)

http://www.daveramsey.com/

http://www.daveramsey.com/etc/cms/why_buy_a_used_car_5153.htmlc

http://www.daveramsey.com/etc/search/?strSearch=car+buying&sa.x=0&sa.y=0&sa=submit

If you MUST buy a New vehicle, always pay cash.
Open a savings account or an interest paying checking account, (this is short term so you dont care about interest rates).
Deposit the money you would have paid for the monthly payment in to this account and then ignore it until you are ready to buy.

$400 x 12 months = $4800 x 4 years = $19200.
$450 x 12 months = $5400 x 4 years = $21600.
$400 x 12 months = $4800 x 5 years = $24000.
$450 x 12 months = $5400 x 5 years = $27000.

Buy the new car, then sell the "old" car. Put the money into the car fund and continue.
Or hand it down to family.
Anybody who can't "afford" to follow this simple plan can't "afford" a monthly payment on a loan either and should be buying used.

Cash. Always a great bargaining point.

Also:
$400 x 12 months = $4800 x 40 years = $192,000.
$450 x 12 months = $5400 x 40 years = $216,000.
$400 x 12 months = $4800 x 50 years = $240,000.
$450 x 12 months = $5400 x 50 years = $270,000.
$400 x 12 months = $4800 x 60 years = $288,000.
$450 x 12 months = $5400 x 60 years = $324,000.

If you want to see something fun try to figure what that becomes with compound interest instead.

Math that should be mandatory in all schools and grade levels. Screw calculus and cosines etc.

http://www.daveramsey.com/

http://www.daveramsey.com/etc/cms/why_buy_a_used_car_5153.htmlc

http://www.daveramsey.com/etc/search/?strSearch=car+buying&sa.x=0&sa.y=0&sa=submit

If you MUST buy a New vehicle, always pay cash.
Open a savings account or an interest paying checking account, (this is short term so you dont care about interest rates).
Deposit the money you would have paid for the monthly payment in to this account and then ignore it until you are ready to buy.

$400 x 12 months = $4800 x 4 years = $19200.
$450 x 12 months = $5400 x 4 years = $21600.
$400 x 12 months = $4800 x 5 years = $24000.
$450 x 12 months = $5400 x 5 years = $27000.

Buy the new car, then sell the "old" car. Put the money into the car fund and continue.
Or hand it down to family.
Anybody who can't "afford" to follow this simple plan can't "afford" a monthly payment on a loan either and should be buying used.

Cash. Always a great bargaining point.

Also:
$400 x 12 months = $4800 x 40 years = $192,000.
$450 x 12 months = $5400 x 40 years = $216,000.
$400 x 12 months = $4800 x 50 years = $240,000.
$450 x 12 months = $5400 x 50 years = $270,000.
$400 x 12 months = $4800 x 60 years = $288,000.
$450 x 12 months = $5400 x 60 years = $324,000.

If you want to see something fun try to figure what that becomes with compound interest instead.

Math that should be mandatory in all schools and grade levels. Screw calculus and cosines etc.

http://www.daveramsey.com/

http://www.daveramsey.com/etc/cms/why_buy_a_used_car_5153.htmlc

http://www.daveramsey.com/etc/search/?strSearch=car+buying&sa.x=0&sa.y=0&sa=submit

If you MUST buy a New vehicle, always pay cash.
Open a savings account or an interest paying checking account, (this is short term so you dont care about interest rates).
Deposit the money you would have paid for the monthly payment in to this account and then ignore it until you are ready to buy.

$400 x 12 months = $4800 x 4 years = $19200.
$450 x 12 months = $5400 x 4 years = $21600.
$400 x 12 months = $4800 x 5 years = $24000.
$450 x 12 months = $5400 x 5 years = $27000.

Buy the new car, then sell the "old" car. Put the money into the car fund and continue.
Or hand it down to family.
Anybody who can't "afford" to follow this simple plan can't "afford" a monthly payment on a loan either and should be buying used.

Cash. Always a great bargaining point.

Also:
$400 x 12 months = $4800 x 40 years = $192,000.
$450 x 12 months = $5400 x 40 years = $216,000.
$400 x 12 months = $4800 x 50 years = $240,000.
$450 x 12 months = $5400 x 50 years = $270,000.
$400 x 12 months = $4800 x 60 years = $288,000.
$450 x 12 months = $5400 x 60 years = $324,000.

If you want to see something fun try to figure what that becomes with compound interest instead.

Math that should be mandatory in all schools and grade levels. Screw calculus and cosines etc.

Well, in the case of Visa anyway, you are protected whether your visa card is a credit or a check card.

I used to think there was increased risk to using a check card (esp. online), but listening to Dave RamseyI found out about this feature (which you can read for yourself on the Visa website).

There is always the option of "manual underwriting"
          http://www.daveramsey.com/etc/askdave/?intContentI d=6260

They qualify you based on actual analysis of your financial situation, and not just a credit score.

Yay Dave Ramsey http://www.daveramsey.com/

Yep, good book, that 48-days book. And the podcast of the 48-Days radio show can be inspiring too. Also, to help get out of debt do the Dave Ramsey plan http://www.daveramsey.com/. Buy the Total Money Makeover book and get out of debt so you have choices!

http://www.daveramsey.com/ Myth: Debt is a tool and should be used to help create prosperity. Truth: Debt is not a tool; it is a method to make banks wealthy, not you. Debt is dumb. Most normal people are just plain broke because they are in debt up to their eyeballs with no hope of help. If you're in debt then you're a slave, in the sense that you do not have the freedom to use your money to help change your family tree. According to a recent USA Today article about debt, 78 percent of baby boomers have mortgage debt, 59 percent have credit card debt, 56 percent have car payments.

1. Start at age 25.
2. Get a Commercial Driver's License (CDL).
3. Move to an area of the US with a low cost of living, such as the Southeast or Midwest, to maximize your buying power and savings potential.
4. Get a job with any major carrier in the United States (this is easy; all trucking companies are screaming for drivers, offering sign-on bonuses, paying for new drivers to go to truck driving school, etc.)
5. Earn $0.36 per mile. This is the base pay for drivers with one year of experience - you start with less, but get raises at 3 months, 6 months, and 1 year, with the 1-year raise being the one that puts you at 36 cents per mile. You also get an annual raise, but for the purposes of this illustration, I'll assume you never get another raise after your 1-year raise up to $0.36/mile.
6. Average 2500 miles per week, 50 weeks per year. I took 4 days off for Thanksgiving, and still managed to rack up 2200 miles from 12:01 AM on Sunday till I got home Wednesday. I have had weeks where I got 3600 miles, and weeks where I got 1800 miles, but average is about 2800 miles per week.
7. Contribute 6% of your pre-tax income to your company's 401(k) plan. Pick a fund that averages at least a 10% rate of return. I contribute the maximum tax exempt amount (15%) and the funds my 401(k) goes into have averaged about 13% over the last 20 years.
8. Your company will typically match half of what you put into your 401(k), up to a maximum employer contribution of 3% of your pre-tax income.
9. Retire at age 60 with $1,207,413.56 in your 401(k).

If you can read this, pass a DOT physical exam, pass a 3-week training course, and aren't afraid to work, you can retire a millionaire. There is no excuse for any able-bodied person in the US to sit around on his/her ass, bitching about being poor.

A large majority of the time debt problems are behavioral, not income related. The more money we earn, the more debt we think we can handle. Go listen to Dave Ramsey's radio show (http://daveramsey.com/) for a few days and you'll hear what I'm talking about. It doesn't matter what income level you look at, people still have crushing loads of debt...it's all just relative to their individual circumstances.

Getting out of debt will not be related to how much money you make, but whether you decide to get serious about dumping it...no matter what your income is. Of course a bigger income means a bigger shovel...but you have to change your attitudes towards debt first, or all you get with a bigger income is more debt. Make that decision first, then worry about which job to take.
[/SOAPBOX]

Ignoring the debt topic and getting back to the original question....take the job that you will ENJOY more (sounds like Perl to me). But if you are not planning to move closer to the Perl job...than it's not worth it no matter how much you enjoy it. You WANT to spend 3-4 hours of your day transporting to/from work (shudder...)? I HATE the time I spend in my car every day and it's only about 17 miles (20 minutes). I'd rather live closer and spend that time riding my bike to work.

---matt

This is rediculous. The only way to get a "good credit history" is to go in debt and then pay for it regularly. Those of us who are responsible and have next to no credit score, well maybe they just aren't interested in us.

A FICO score is a stupid measure of responsibility for something like this. I would argue the person who plans well and doesn't get into debt is MORE responsible than the person who gets into debt and pays his monthly payments.

I know what Dave Ramsey has to say about this.

I would suggest 3(4) books:

The Total Money Makeover - Dave Ramsey
ISBN: 0785263268
http://daveramsey.com/

Multiple Streams of Income - Robert G. Allen
ISBN: 0471714550

and

The Millionare Mind/The Millionare Next Door - Thomas Stanley

ISBN: 0740718584 / ISBN: 0671015206

All of these should be available at your local public non-school library.

Get out of debt ASAP and then stay out. Don't let any man own you.
Check out Dave Ramsey for a good plan to get free.
http://daveramsey.com

One huge disadvantage of using debit or credit cards is loss of control of your finances. Dave Ramsey, is a radio guy trying to convert the whole world from the mortgage / three-car-payment / six-credit-card-payments way of life to living completely debt-free, what he calls financial peace. He likes to say money is 80% behavioral and 20% math, and I've strongly agreed with this even before I'd ever listened to his programs. One of the very first things he advocates in all of his books and courses is, get a budget, spend everying on paper on purpose at the beginning of the month, and pay cash for everything. When you set a realistic budget, then you're both comfortable with the money you're spending in that you don't feel like you're starving, and when the money runs out in your pocket, it's out, so you're in control. No more plasma screen TV's. My whole life, I've always cashed my paycheck or logged my direct-deposit paystub, then gone straight to the ATM to withdraw a healthy sum for the whole week. If I had cash in my pocket for something, I'd get it, if not, I wouldn't. This habit alone has kept me saving money every month, even though I've been a student most of the time from age 18 to 32.

I wouldn't want to just walk through the city and end up with a negative sum in my checking account at the end of the day. If I were to buy into this thing, I would need the ability to declare "wallets". I'd like to open my cell phone, see $132, oh, I have enough for a full tank of gas on Saturday and groceries for the last half of this week, so I can buy this $15 panini sammich. Then I go home and check my home wallet, pay the light, heat, water, garbage bills, and mortgage with that. Then comes my direct deposit, so I refill all my wallets, including the wife's redecorating wallet and my car parts and ammunition wallet.

Perhaps Google's idea is to somehow allow more targetted selection from advertisers across a broader range of shows/locations? I dunno, just pulling at straws here. As another commenter posted, perhaps the ulterior motive is just to ween away the top salespeople.

I am a firm believer that houses should depreciate over time, not appreciate. As long as houses continue to go up in price, it is a sign to me of inflation and manipulation of the marketplace, and I'll continue to live in a VERY nice trailer. When (and if?) the bubble bursts, I'll take my gold and my properties that I've held on to, sell them and hopefully buy a decent new home at a significant savings.

If that's your opinion of the long-term value of real estate, then you are not familiar with the reality of it for over a century. Now what you said is true in the case of trailers, but not for traditionally built houses. The real estate bubble discussion is only related to the rate of growth in some areas, but it sure is not going to go down.

I am very much with you on the get out of debt idea though. We got our attitude turned around in the Spring to turn away from the standard credit card and debt procedure that keeps most Americans' lives very broke but flashy looking. We'll be debt free except for the house next month, and we're on track to have the mortgage paid off in about another 3 years. After that, we will have truly freed up our greatest wealth-building tool--our income. No payments owed to anyone changes your life. And to think that we're figuring this out before we're 30 years old, that's going to make a huge difference in our financial picture long term. If you're interested in the type of plan we're using for it(basic budgeting and saving), check out Dave Ramsey's website. He has a radio show that you can listen to on his site to get an idea of where he's coming from.

Phase 1) Stop living beyond your means. Trade in the SUV for a (very) used sedan. Move out of the suburbia colonial into a bungalow. Stop trying to keep the game machine up to the latest and greatest. If you paying for cable/internet/games/eating out with a credit card then you can't afford them; stop buying them. No one ever got rich on credit card reward points.

Phase 2) Cancel and cut up all your credit cards and HELOCs. No, you don't need one for emergencies. Yes, you can cancel credit going forward if you don't have a zero balance.

Phase 3) Pay bare minimums on everything, live on ramen noodles and mac and cheese. Take every extra cent you have and put it in the bank until you have an emergency fund of $500 to $1000. With this, you shouldn't need to go into debt if something catastrophic happens.

Phase 4) Pay off all debt except your house, smallest balance to largest, using the same phase 3 plan you did to start an emergency fund. At this speed, attacking the largest interest rate will save you, maybe, a Big Mac's worth of money. Plus, the rush of actually having more money to attack more stuff is pretty cool.

Phase 5) Fully fund your emergency fund to cover 3-6 months of expenses. You now never have to borrow again.

Phase 6) ...

Phase 7) Profit! And have the added benefit of telling those nasty credit card companies that you haven't had a credit card in N years, and you've had no inclination to start.

Phase 8) Write all these people certified mail, return receipt requested and request to be taken off their mailing lists.

Phase 9) Only borrow to purchase a home, and only do it with someone who does manual underwriting (does more than plug numbers in a computer and generate a FICO score), because you have no credit rating any more (and that's a good thing, further discourages bad spending habits).

Ok, that was longer than expected. And, to be fair, it wasn't my idea originally.

It's not your house - it's all the stuff IN your house. Worst offenders are generic PCs; specifically their case design (RFI/EMI-wise) is absolutely clueless (e.g., see http://www.ac6v.com/comprfi.htm/ for theory and fixes). Second place is firmly held by very, very crappy power supplies that let all the noise OUT of the PC on the power buss (ie. into your wiring). Sam's very useful Notes on the Troubleshooting and Repair of Small Switchmode Power Supplies) will get you started with theory and what [often] goes wrong (disclosure: I'm his sidekick). But:

Pet Peeve: as soon as Name-Your-$14-PC-PS-Manufacturer gets their UL sticker (meaning they can start selling in the US!) the ENTIRE L-C filter from the input of the power supply PCB is shorted out with a series of jumpers. Right, the 120VAC wires go through the save-thy-ass fuse right into the rectifier! No caps, no chokes, nuthin'! (Ok, so what do you expect from a $15 460W PS?) This allows all the noise on the power lines to enter the PC (and fry it - use a surge protector!) *AND* it allows all the noise IN the PC to escape back out and corrupt others (ie. your receiver, TV, etc.) (See: http://cms-emc.web.cern.ch/cms-emc/pdffiles/PhDfil es/PS&filters.pdf section 3.2 Switching mode power supplies for a nice overview). Oh, yeah, and I'm *SURE* all of you have your grounded cable actually grounded, right?

I got a 250W ATX knock-off case for $29 that came with a PS included. Turned the PC on, *ALL* AM stations vanished! Right... I opened it up and shure enough, a jumper from fuse to rectifier. All caps to ground were missing as well (from various points in the circuit). A few moments with a soldering iron (jelly-bean components, salvaged from dead *quality* PSes) and you can't tell the PC is on by listening to AM dial. Day and night difference!

Don't feel bad if you never though of it, this guy obviously never did either... and he should have. http://techreport.com/reviews/2004q4/psus/index.x? pg=1

But, how do you later chop up the files? I'm glad you asked: I use a hacked version of text-only (yeah!) soundgrab. You can get my latest version from http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/filipg/soundgrab/

My signal comes from a battery-powered (ie. avoids issues with 'corrupted power' ;) digital sony walkman, via a 20-odd foot coax cable to my PC. The further away your receiver is from the source of noice, the better off you are![*] Linux records it from a SoundBlaster Live! with rawrec to a wav file. I have a series of templates (.sg files) for different shows and just fudge them a bit then export to MP3. Piece of cake! I've done a bunch of Dave's shows that way (~700MB worth) for inclusion in a weakness of mine (don't worry, they get some equally-illegit music ;).

Cheers

[*] "The solution to pollution is dilution" - Evil chemistry maxim applied to the wonderul and friendly world of RFI ;-)

You're onto something profound. Let me give you a few quick observations on why MANY folks make over 40K (national average) yet have little to show for it except debts:

• Folks like to lease or buy NEW cars. Go to http://www.kbb.com/ and compare a 2005 SUV with the same model from 2001. Right, after four (4) years, it's worth less than 50%. So, that "0% APR" you got wasn't actually 0, now was it. It's not as bad as Enron stock, but it's that great either. Hope you enjoy your car. I got a 3 year old car with 15K on it. I can't tell the difference. Paid cash so no payments (2001 Buick Century, paid $8K a yr ago).
• Studies show that using plastic (Credit cards) causes you to spend more than paying cash. I know this is true for ME. It physically HURTS to spend those Franklins... My brain rapidly correlates each portait on those bill with the AMOUNT of work required to get them in the first place. I can swipe plastic all day and only worry about it in passing. Needless to say, we have $$$ in debit cards - which can be used as VISA. Haven't had a card payment in years.
• Written budget is the only way you can tell your money where to go INSTEAD of worndering where it went. Go to http://www.daveramsey.com/ and download a few shows from archives and give a listen. Which brings me to my last point:
• Most of those under 50 do NOT have money skills. For their own use OR to teach to their kids. I grew up not learning anything about managing my money. I learned along the way the hard way. Can you say Discover? Can you say paycheck-to-paycheck. I knew you could. I haven't done that in about three (3) years. I sleep at night like a baby now.

Listen to Dave. He's on over 250 stations in the US and also on XM and Sirious (or however you spell that :)

Cheers,
Fil

P.S. I like the Baby Steps:

1. 1000$ in cash - emergency fund + cut up cards
2. Write a written budget where you spend ALL money on paper before the month begins
3. While staying current with all debts, list them smallest to largest (except house), and attack smallest with a vengance. When it's paid off, apply its payment to next on the list until all paid off.
4. increase emergency fund to 3-6 months of living expenses
5. start paying off house/saving for house, saving 15% for retirement, etc.

We're on #5. Started with #1. Try it! It works!

You're onto something profound. Let me give you a few quick observations on why MANY folks make over 40K (national average) yet have little to show for it except debts:

• Folks like to lease or buy NEW cars. Go to http://www.kbb.com/ and compare a 2005 SUV with the same model from 2001. Right, after four (4) years, it's worth less than 50%. So, that "0% APR" you got wasn't actually 0, now was it. It's not as bad as Enron stock, but it's that great either. Hope you enjoy your car. I got a 3 year old car with 15K on it. I can't tell the difference. Paid cash so no payments (2001 Buick Century, paid $8K a yr ago).
• Studies show that using plastic (Credit cards) causes you to spend more than paying cash. I know this is true for ME. It physically HURTS to spend those Franklins... My brain rapidly correlates each portait on those bill with the AMOUNT of work required to get them in the first place. I can swipe plastic all day and only worry about it in passing. Needless to say, we have $$$ in debit cards - which can be used as VISA. Haven't had a card payment in years.
• Written budget is the only way you can tell your money where to go INSTEAD of worndering where it went. Go to http://www.daveramsey.com/ and download a few shows from archives and give a listen. Which brings me to my last point:
• Most of those under 50 do NOT have money skills. For their own use OR to teach to their kids. I grew up not learning anything about managing my money. I learned along the way the hard way. Can you say Discover? Can you say paycheck-to-paycheck. I knew you could. I haven't done that in about three (3) years. I sleep at night like a baby now.

Listen to Dave. He's on over 250 stations in the US and also on XM and Sirious (or however you spell that :)

Cheers,
Fil

P.S. I like the Baby Steps:

1. 1000$ in cash - emergency fund + cut up cards
2. Write a written budget where you spend ALL money on paper before the month begins
3. While staying current with all debts, list them smallest to largest (except house), and attack smallest with a vengance. When it's paid off, apply its payment to next on the list until all paid off.
4. increase emergency fund to 3-6 months of living expenses
5. start paying off house/saving for house, saving 15% for retirement, etc.

We're on #5. Started with #1. Try it! It works!

You're onto something profound. Let me give you a few quick observations on why MANY folks make over 40K (national average) yet have little to show for it except debts:

• Folks like to lease or buy NEW cars. Go to http://www.kbb.com/ and compare a 2005 SUV with the same model from 2001. Right, after four (4) years, it's worth less than 50%. So, that "0% APR" you got wasn't actually 0, now was it. It's not as bad as Enron stock, but it's that great either. Hope you enjoy your car. I got a 3 year old car with 15K on it. I can't tell the difference. Paid cash so no payments (2001 Buick Century, paid $8K a yr ago).
• Studies show that using plastic (Credit cards) causes you to spend more than paying cash. I know this is true for ME. It physically HURTS to spend those Franklins... My brain rapidly correlates each portait on those bill with the AMOUNT of work required to get them in the first place. I can swipe plastic all day and only worry about it in passing. Needless to say, we have $$$ in debit cards - which can be used as VISA. Haven't had a card payment in years.
• Written budget is the only way you can tell your money where to go INSTEAD of worndering where it went. Go to http://www.daveramsey.com/ and download a few shows from archives and give a listen. Which brings me to my last point:
• Most of those under 50 do NOT have money skills. For their own use OR to teach to their kids. I grew up not learning anything about managing my money. I learned along the way the hard way. Can you say Discover? Can you say paycheck-to-paycheck. I knew you could. I haven't done that in about three (3) years. I sleep at night like a baby now.

Listen to Dave. He's on over 250 stations in the US and also on XM and Sirious (or however you spell that :)

Cheers,
Fil

P.S. I like the Baby Steps:

1. 1000$ in cash - emergency fund + cut up cards
2. Write a written budget where you spend ALL money on paper before the month begins
3. While staying current with all debts, list them smallest to largest (except house), and attack smallest with a vengance. When it's paid off, apply its payment to next on the list until all paid off.
4. increase emergency fund to 3-6 months of living expenses
5. start paying off house/saving for house, saving 15% for retirement, etc.

We're on #5. Started with #1. Try it! It works!

Smart people also buy used cars. New cars instantly depreciate by a substantial amount the second you drive them off the lot. Why make a bad investment?

This message is brought to you by the cult of Dave Ramsey.

Rent is debt, it's a continuing eternal debt.

Um, excuse me. What the hell are you talking about?

Rent is paying for the use of something temporarily. Debt is being a slave to the borrower, period. You can put it in whatever PC term you choose best. If you owe someone money, they control your finances until you are relieved of this debt.

Now, if you're speaking of leases, that could be considered debt because a lease is worth the entire term of said rent. This could be considered temporary debt at best.

This guy knows his shite. He's a pro-cash guy. And while I can't go full-tilt into his scheme, it's important to realize that rent is not debt, no matter how you see it.

Rent == Eternal debt. Where do you guys come up with this garbage?

I am a devotee of Dave Ramsey. He has several books out on personal finance and has a daily radio show you should be able to catch in most parts of the US. His web site is at http://www.daveramsey.com/.

It's not being stupid. I highly recomend Dave Ramsey. His advice has really helped me out.

5 years is a bare minimum

Something like 97% of 5 year periods have made money in the stock market, so a 5 year investment is still a bit of a gamble. According to Dave Ramsey 100% of 10 year periods since the dawn of the stock market have made money.

I too am tired of people saying "you should buy a house." I will buy a house when I'm ready to settle somewhere. Contrary to popular opinion, renting often makes good financial sense.

Unfortunatly alot of people who invest don't do it right. If $40,000 represents one year of work for you don't you think you should invest some of that year in learning how to manage your investments? If your too lazy then your better off dropping it all on red-8 and watching them spin the wheel.

A good link for anyone following this thread:
http://www.daveramsey.com/
Dave Ramsey does a great job helping people understand how to live within thier means. Listen to a few of his archived broadcasts.

http://www.daveramsey.com/

According to my bank (and a couple other businesses), it is possible to determine whether a card is a real credit card or a debit card. Now that I think of it, I've had a few transactions held up because of it.

Actual theft and transaction policies vary from bank to bank. With my bank, a transaction doesn't happen immediately. There is usually a lag of 2-3 days between the time the purchase is made and when it's posted. So if one looses the card or it's stolen, there is enough time to contact the bank and they will cancel any charges. They also usually have a limit on how much can be taken out each day and how much can be taken out over a given number of days. Also, if there is an error, they will reverse the charges. I've had that happen a few times and it's not that big of a problem.

I really like prepaid credit cards like those that used to be offered by pocketcard. They would offer the standard credit card protections, but instead of paying off a statement every month, you would load the card via an ACH bank transfer or check. They would also email account activity statements daily. Unfortunately, they've gone out of business and VisaBuxx cards are expensive.

I don't have a problem with restraining purchases. The wife does and the only way to cure that is a 2x4 to the head. But since that would put me in jail, I"ve head to weather bankruptcy and all the crap that goes along with it because an adult woman acts like a spoiled brat when it comes to money. Needless to say, the only real credit cards that I could possibly get are from the companies that require cash up front and screw you over with tons of charges. A VisaBuxx card would be cheaper! The work around? Get the bank to set the limits low and move the money back and forth between savings accounts when needed.

In a race between who to drain the account faster, my wife could beat any crook. The idea of having a credit card for 'safe' purchases is nice, but many people use them as a short term way to increase their buying power. That's why show's like Dave Ramsey's exists. My attitude now is that if I don't have the money to pay for it, I either save up for it or do with out.

while the standard of living went way up, primarily due to cheap credit

That's a real good way of increasing your standard of living...go into debt. Every so often I tune into Dave Ramsey on the radio. It's funny. It is common for the show to get a call where the guy's household income is 100K+, but he's broke ($10s of thousands on credit cards, leased cars, etc) w/ no savings. The host will offer him a few free clues (cut up the cards, get rid of the leased cars/SUV and get a cheap MOT, plow the money into reducing other debt, etc). At other times there will be a husband & wife who probably make $25-30K a year calling in because they're happy they saved $6K+ within that year to pay everything off but the house.

What's the difference? IMHO, priorities and the emphasis on the 'status' received by the stuff you own. Unfortunately, that stuff ends up owning you.