Slashdot Mirror

I guess you'd expect people to use a PC from 20 years ago for modern times too.

Yea, that'd be crazy. That would never happen.

Um. AFAIK in the specific case of c64 ethernet cards, they tend to use CS8900a chips (intended to run on an ISA bus, which is easily enough bridged to the C64) . Yes, some ethernet frame processing happens on chip, but the entire TCP/IP stack runs on the c64 (though a lot of enthusiasts have 20MHz SuperCPUs for their c64s...)

http://www.dunkels.com/adam/tfe/hardware.html
http://www.cirrus.com/en/products/pro/detail/P46.html

For the Mac Plus, there was a SCSIethernet box you could get. Pretty straightforward installation.

For the TRS-80, your best bet may be running SLIP or PPP over a serial or parallel interface. Of course, viewing web pages in 128x64 block graphics might be something of a challenge.

Fortunately, Commodore 64/128's have an ethernet solution available. See http://www.dunkels.com/adam/tfe/

Also a good time to try out that C=64 TCP/IP adapter: http://www.dunkels.com/adam/tfe/

but can it run Contiki?

How 'bout a web server?

Hey, it ran on a C64, and the server lasted through a two-week long slashdotting... An Apple //e would normally have twice the RAM. Now we just need LANceGS support in the Contiki A2 port...

It's actually 64 K of RAM about 51 k of it usable. Most Commodore BBSs swap in and out the various sub-programs as needed.

and about an 800K floppy

Most BBS sysops have a hard drive or large RAM drive such as the CMD Hard Drive or RAMLink I started with floppies (which the 5.25" drives were 170 k and the more expensive 3.5" were 800k) but you can only run a text based board (and not a networked one) on such limited capacity.

... am I missing something, have they come up with larger mass storage systems for the C64 or something? Hard Drives now can access beyong 4GB (CMD HD), 20x System accelerators (SuperCPU), RAM Drives up to 16MB (RAMLink), and even ethernet interfaces with web browsers (contiki, the wave, etc.) telnet software still in the works.

(This isn't intended as a troll or flamebait... it's a genuine question....)

Of all the 8-bit followings the Commodore 64 has been one of the most active and innovative over the two decades since the computer was first produced.

One girl genius is taking the 64 a step further.

Last time I checked Debian wan't "major". I don't see Debian boxes at PC WORLD, I dont see Debian Certified Engineers, I dont see Debian with a flashy glizty easy to install installer (AND DO NOT GIVE ME THAT BULLSHIT ABOUT ARCHITECTURES, if contiki can provide a graphical operating system on machines with just 32Kibs of RAM, so should debian). Anyway, by the time it makes it to "stable" Linux 3.0 will be out.

Debian Zealots should be shot. If they dont want to be shot, then make something worth using. BTW, urpmi kicks apt-gets ass so hard that it becomes wider than goatse!

Learning to expand an existing OS, and there are plenty of small ones to choose from, will teach you much more than building your own one from scratch.

Something about the Contiki Operating System and Desktop Enviroment IIRC

8bit consoles: 0 - Slashdot: 1

If obscurity is the way to keep the FBI off your back what do you think the odds of Al Queda switching to Contiki are?

Maybe the Google front page didn't fit into the memory of the C64 ;)) Or, maybe, ...

Or maybe... it does!

It might sound doubtful, but there really is a web browser for C64. (Portable also to Atari 8-bit, NES, maybe more..)

Observe: Contiki

I've just got Contiki running on my C64, ethernet enabled and all. Haven't really been able to set it up for anything fancy yet (as in, not enough room for a bunch of C64 drives or even a comfortable place to use it), but I'm sure I'll get something fancy running on it eventually.

HA! Screw you guys - I wanna +5 Funny. hahahafyin7&^E&w3dssa[NO CARRIER]

Commodore 64 ethernet card

Commodore 64 web browser

How useful these really are, I don't know. But they exist.

~Philly

Commodore 64 ethernet card

Commodore 64 web browser

How useful these really are, I don't know. But they exist.

~Philly

Actually, there really isn't a great reason to use Sky OS over Linux or BSD... and that's not the point. Sky OS is one of many smaller projects whose primary purpose is to satisfy the hobby needs of the creator... Kind of like where Linux was when Linus decided his schoolwork was too boring.

There are many other examples out there. Contiki, Triangle Os, and many others.

There are also Open Source, commercial, and potentially useful hobbyist systems out there. However, if you are looking for the most comprehensive, useful desktop suite, look elsewhere. All of these Os's are unique and well-intentioned, but very few are actually practical.

Practicality is not the point. Curiosity is the point. What would a different implementation look like? What if all the graphics subsystems were contained in the kernel? How would a real-time OS feel to the user? These questions can't be answered by just releasing a new X theme, and there aren't very many people curious enough to find out.

These people are true geeks... Software for software's sake. Kudos to you all.

I'm his brother. I apologise about the way he has acted in this thread, I have re-installed Contiki on that thing he calls a computer and that should keep him busy for a while -- now he has to learn how to go on the web again.

However, I still think that you could have acted in a more exemplary manner, especially as the submitter of the said story to Slashdot -- I thought this community was more intelligent than that.

In closing, I can only say: YHBT. YHL. HAND.

quite odd, they've developed it for everything from the vic-20 to the Nintendo, to the Co-co, wonder why they don't have it for the TIc? Oh, that's right.. It must be because the TI-99/4a has a 16 bit processor, and it's only for 8 bit systems.. (yes folks, the TI was the first 16 bit 'Home Computer' but due to bad coding, Bad marketing, (sorry Bill Cosby) and the fear of loss of money, it never went far with TI, but just check out the following, (including a 32 bit upgrade path) Myarc9640

NetBSD probably would be too large to fit on a Sony Walkman. I would recommend porting Contiki instead.

There is already a TCP/IP-enabled operating system with a built-in web server for the GBA: Contiki!

Athlon 64 can run 99 percent of Commodore 64 software in emulation, including the C=64 version of the Contiki OS. In addition, it can probably run almost all these other ports.

You want native? If the Athlon 64 processor and chipset can boot up as a normal x86, it can run Contiki for PC DOS.

20% of the people in the world do not have enough to eat. Want something interesting to do? Help feed one or more of the hungry.

If the 20% you talk about don't have enough money to buy food, then they probably don't have enough money to replace their old Commodore 64's with new PCs either. They're probably just the people who would be excited that they too can finally surf the internet in all its big-blocky-text-based glory!

If you care about being relevant, case mods, games, and broadband C64s are OFF TOPIC.
There are websites devoted to feeding the hungry, and websites devoted to case mods, games, broadband and C64s. Slashdot is the latter. Maybe you're here mistakenly while looking for the former.

It's been done before: http://www.dunkels.com/adam/tfe/

Take a look at the Contiki ports page. It seems Contiki already is ported to the AVR since it already includes a full TCP/IP stack and a web browser, you should be able to use it directly.

I first thought that they managed to run the HTTP server on the actual teletype (something like a mechanical HTTP server!), so I was a little dissapointed to see that they used a modern PC motherboard for doing that.

Still, it would be nice to see if something like Contiki could be used for this beast as well.

I found another one. ;-) I doubt it's infected by Blaster, etc, while still offering perfectly functional internet connectivity.

If that impresses you, what do you think about the C64 streaming server? It's not in BASIC, but it's running on about the same CPU (the C64's 6510 is a 6502 with additonal lines for the tape recorder).

...90% of hardware improvements are essentially wasted by programmer inefficiency.

Look at those amazing 4K demos that people did (and stll do) for DOS. People are doing wild stuff here-- things like real-time pseudo-3D rendering, fractals, you name it-- all inside of 4 kilobytes of code. And most of these demos will run just as well on a '286 or (at most) '386 than today's space-heater chips.

Contiki is a lovely example of what can be done with efficient coding. In my experience, this sort of efficiency is NEVER achieved today in "commercial" projects or even in OSS/FS code-- people never even come close. The only areas of computing which have seen significant improvements (I don't just mean "more widgets" or "better interfaces" (the latter has nothing to do with hardware improvements, so don't even mention it)) in recent years have been:

* Gaming (perhaps the only area where efficiency is even SOMEWHAT appreciated, as it leads to higher FPS)
* Rendering (ditto)
* Real-time scientific simulations

In 1980, I could flip on an Apple II and have a usable prompt inside of a second or two. Nowadays, even with a screamin' P4 or Duron will get you a 30-second startup time-- if you're lucky. That's just to boot up the OS. Wanna start a word processor? That'll take even longer.

If you want to get a sense of what MY expectations were that were shattered, go grab a good Apple II emulator and some appropriate software and fire the emulator up. Make sure that it's running at the full possible speed-- not "compatible" speed (which is 1.02MHz, if I remember correctly). Look at how fast stuff runs... and that's in emulation. Sure, there's no fancy GUI, there's no clippy, whatever you think "modern" OSes have to have... but the point is that even in emulation, old stuff runs REALLY, REALLY FAST. If the same mentality of "efficiency is everything" that was necessary during the days of limited hardware power was voluntarily adopted today... well... imagine Windows XP starting up in one second (and not crashing). Imagine being able to swap cool new games on floppy disks. Imagine most games being distributed on Mini CDs, even those with lots of videos and speech, since a full (650-700MB) CD would be overkill for them.

Then wake up and realize it's time to go buy some more RAM again... ho hum...BillG just raised the bar on hardware requirements. Back to the treadmill we go...

Great, but how long until we see a port of Contiki?

Is the idea to have the smallest possible OS capable of doing x or y?
check...

Is the idea to have the smallest possible OS that looks like Windows 95?
check...

Is the idea to have the smallest possible 'distribution' of Windows 95 attainable by just removing unecessary features?
i agree with the parent here.

Do we want smallest in terms of RAM usage, or smallest in terms of disk space? What do we then if we run it on a RAM disk? Which space counts?
no prob, bob.

Honestly, this post seemed like a good idea when I started typing it. Now I'm apprehensive to hit the submit button. Maybe that's a bad sign...

Bah, Assembly'03 is nothing compared to what the real old-school people are up to: The world's first C64 LAN party! At the LCP2003 party arranged in Sweden this summer, Adam Dunkels showcased his Commodore 64 Contiki OS on a bunch of C64s connected in a LAN using specially built Ethernet cards. The three C64:s connected to a LAN made this event the world's first C64-only LAN party!

There was a comment on the Contiki page about something about DNS , if I understand it correctly, they have a table of some 10 websites and their IPs precompiled so that they wouldnt have to do a DNS lookup.
So you probably have to edit that table.

Does Contiki support pre-emptive multitasking?

No, Contiki does cooperative multitasking. The reason for not supporting pre-emptive multitasking is that it would unnecessarily increase the complexity not only of the operating system, but also of the applications that would run under it. Pre-emptive multitasking is primarily useful in general purpose multiuser operating systems such as *nix, or in real-time systems where response time is critial. Contiki does not fit in either of those categories.

I'm sure someone will manage to get it running some flavour of Linux. In the mean time, I'll be happy to run Contiki on my real C64 - unless someone can come up with a linux-distro for it that is.

If this 'new C64' turns out to be naught more than a reasonable standard PC bundled with an emulator and some repackaged software, porting Linux to it should be as hard as placing the Knoppix CD in the drive and booting it up...

Personaly, I would think it would be great if they brought back to life some of the old hardware - the VIC was an interesting grapichscontroller with it's independent sprites, and the SID could make music like no chip has before or after.

If you're a youngster and wish to learn more about one of the most influential micros in the early 80's, you may want to look at Marko Mäkelä 8-bit server. His document page is a treasure in it's own right.

Sure, if you're willing to pay the license for it and pass those costs on to the consumer.

Linux has become the way to go embedded on the cheap. If you don't need an RTOS, what in QNX are you paying for?

QNX, Linux. Bah. Just get a real OS and GUI that can work in 64k of ram like Contiki.

Microsoft better watch out. Contiki is on its way to running on every platform in the world. Once that has been achieved. He'll release a "killer app" and over take Microsoft's domination.

Keep an eye on the forthcoming IPO!

Reign it in a bit there buddy. * 8-bit hardware has all the horsepower you need.

You need
C64 Computer with diskdrive
Contiki Web Server
C64 Ethernet Card

Set all the users limits to 15k an you can keep them all on one floppy. Since you'll spend at most $300 on hardware that leaves $3700 for pizza and beer

SD

Reign it in a bit there buddy. * 8-bit hardware has all the horsepower you need.

You need
C64 Computer with diskdrive
Contiki Web Server
C64 Ethernet Card

Set all the users limits to 15k an you can keep them all on one floppy. Since you'll spend at most $300 on hardware that leaves $3700 for pizza and beer

SD

Take a look at Contiki. It is written in highly portable C and has a bunch of abstraction layers in order to achieve portability. Contiki is multi-tasking, has a full TCP/IP stack, a web browser, web server, etc. and achieves this in less than 50 K for both the code and the data.

It is not all about writing highly optimized assembler code, it is mostly about choosing the right set of abstractions so that the abstractions map nicely onto that which is abstracted.

Please tell me what software and operating system you're using to browse and post on slashdot. It can't be lynx that's far too bloated.


He is probably using a Commodore 64 with the contiki desktop and web browser.

Yes, this software lets you post to Slashdot from an Atari 800, but his '800 broke down. So he must be psoting from his Commodore 64).

Note the Ethernet setup the C64 uses. It's a specialized cartridge designed for the C64's cassette player! Wayyyy cool!

No need to to any hardware mods for this... just run Contiki on the C64 instead!

Ok, so putting a modern PC in an old computercase is cool and all, but running modern style software on the actual old computer is much cooler! Check out the Contiki operating system for such old computers (including the Atari 800): it is a multi-tasking graphical operating system with full Internet access (web browser, telnet client, web server!) that runs on a a bunch of different old computers. They even have a web server running on a real Commodore 64.

Ok, so putting a modern PC in an old computercase is cool and all, but running modern style software on the actual old computer is much cooler! Check out the Contiki operating system for such old computers (including the Atari 800): it is a multi-tasking graphical operating system with full Internet access (web browser, telnet client, web server!) that runs on a a bunch of different old computers. They even have a web server running on a real Commodore 64.

I see you mentioned your VIC-20 not being networked. See if this will help any.
I guess you only have to figure out how to run uIP on it :-] which would be possible with an appropriate RAM expansion, which would be an interesting project by itself... hmmm... no really, this idea came to my just while I was typing this.

BTW, are you the HW hacker type?

All of you who are interested in minimalistic systems should take a look at Contiki. It is an entire multitasking graphical operating system, window manager, GUI toolkit with themes, TCP/IP stack, web browser, web server, etc. in 50 kilobytes! It is written for 8-bit homecomputers such as the Commodore 64, Nintendo NES and the 8-bit Atari.

And, believe it or not, the window manager even has title bars and close buttons :-)

But Safari > MSIE ;)

Well duh. Even Contiki > MSIE. :)

There is another Internet OS that currently is being ported to the GBA called Contiki. It currently features a lot of what it to be expected of a modern OS such as multitasking, TCP/IP support, web browser, screensavers, etc. Still, it only requires no more than 50k and ought to be a lot faster than eCos.