Slashdot Mirror

Pick up a bunch of refurb iPaq 3600/3700 handhelds ($350-400 ea.), slap Familiar on them, and you should be ready to go. Oh yeah, they do ad-hoc 802.11, too, so in non-emergency situations you can do normal community networking with them.

Is this the only current device using Midori Linux?

It's all gone rather quite since Midori first was announced last year - and the In Use page on their website has only 2 broken links and this device.

It seems a bit odd that they seem to be ignoring the (large) potential PDA & Mobile phone market in favour of webpads.

Incidentally, the Familiar Project is chugging along quite nicely producing a decent Linux PDA OS (for the iPaq only ATM)

$250 always seemed a touch high to me. I think there's a Linux PDA niche somewhere below the iPaqs, competing directly with low-end Palm devices.

I always thought the (monochrome) iPaq H31xx models were a good bet to fill this niche. They are significantly more powerful than the VR3, with a better price tag.

Linux development has lagged behind the color iPaqs for some time, but it looks as if the H31xx is finally supported "out of the box".

In fact it is working quite well for those hacking off of Russell King's arm tree for the iPAQ.

See here for details.

This is getting quite of-topic, but hey, i got some karma to spend on a good cause. :)

"I was merely referring to the growing trend of citing how many Megabytes of ROM a system has, as though that actually makes it a better system. It may have some bearing. For example, when the Macintosh doubled their ROM size, the OS was certainly better. But in many cases, it just indicates code bloat."

Well, as I see it, the reason PocketPC keeps getting bigger, is because of the applications Micro$oft "bundle" with the OS, i.e. the extra space is consumed by applications giving extra functionality, not the OS itself.

The reason PalmOS is so compact is because of it's minimalistic aproach. It do only what it is supposed to do. PocketPC is larger because it want to be so much more, however, it can be discussed how usefull it really is. :)

As a sidenote, I think one version of the Linux-distros for the iPaq have a footprint of over two hundred megs..

"BTW, how did the upgrade to PocketPC 2002 go for you? I have an iPaq 3650 that I'd like to upgrade. Can you downgrade if you aren't happy with the new version? Also, how do you like the new version?"

It went painless for me, and you also have the option of backing up the old PocketPC OS to a file on your desktop, which can later be restored. There is however a risk that that os-loader can be destroyed during the actual writing to the flash-rom, f.eks. if a powerbreak occurs or something, but I haven't heard about that happening to anyone I know.

How I like it? Well, it seems to be more economic with memory, as well as it has become abit easier to manage running tasks, closing them and stuff. It's also a bit easier on the eyes, and now you can actually access network-shares, browse the web, etc, with it once you are synched. In overall, I'm satisfied with the upgrade. :)

I would have to say yes.

if you look at some of the software coming from the handhelds.org people, for example.
There are applications such as Storm - A complete PIM app being developed at an incredable rate, and offer loads of functionality.

I can do everything with linux on my ipaq (probably more in my opinion) than with windows CE and Palm OS.

I can manage email, contacts, surf the web via my cellphone, listen to mp3s, play doom even.

Also, given the fact that there are a lot of linux geeks out there with PDAs, there is also a lot of people who wouldn't mind running there favourite OS on their handheld.

Sales of the new Sharp Zaurus should give us an indication as to how well linux fairs with normal businessmen and the like.

I would have to say yes.

if you look at some of the software coming from the handhelds.org people, for example.
There are applications such as Storm - A complete PIM app being developed at an incredable rate, and offer loads of functionality.

I can do everything with linux on my ipaq (probably more in my opinion) than with windows CE and Palm OS.

I can manage email, contacts, surf the web via my cellphone, listen to mp3s, play doom even.

Also, given the fact that there are a lot of linux geeks out there with PDAs, there is also a lot of people who wouldn't mind running there favourite OS on their handheld.

Sales of the new Sharp Zaurus should give us an indication as to how well linux fairs with normal businessmen and the like.

I would have to say yes.

if you look at some of the software coming from the handhelds.org people, for example.
There are applications such as Storm - A complete PIM app being developed at an incredable rate, and offer loads of functionality.

I can do everything with linux on my ipaq (probably more in my opinion) than with windows CE and Palm OS.

I can manage email, contacts, surf the web via my cellphone, listen to mp3s, play doom even.

Also, given the fact that there are a lot of linux geeks out there with PDAs, there is also a lot of people who wouldn't mind running there favourite OS on their handheld.

Sales of the new Sharp Zaurus should give us an indication as to how well linux fairs with normal businessmen and the like.

Get one of these babies instead. There's ActiveSync type software for Linux, and if you tire of PocketPC 2002 OS, you can always put Linux on it.

For $430 (after rebate) you get 240x320, 96MB of storage, 206MHz StrongARM processor, expansion pack capability including "compactflash" and PCMCIA cards, infrared capability, USB, and it plays whatever audio Windows Media Player will take, up to and including MP3.

The question is, why Palm?

The Sharp hardware is really nifty, but it doesn't run X11. That greatly limits its usefulness to Linux developers. I'd stay away from it until Sharp has changes over to X11. In the Sharp's favor is that it comes with a Java runtime environment, if that matters to you, although I doubt it comes with a Java development environment.

I have used the iPaqs with Familiar Linux, and they make great little machines. You can ssh in/out, run X11 remotely in both directions, and stuff ports to them really easy. The Yopy looks like an even nicer piece of hardware, since it comes with Linux and X11 preinstalled, as well as a keyboard. For Java, they probably run Kaffe, gcj, and Jikes, which is no worse than what the Sharp likely has.

I also have the Zaurus SL5000D and two iPaqs (a 3650 and 3850). While I agree with your comments, there is one small error: The iPaq can indeed run Linux. The Familiar distribution runs nicely on the iPaq, and includes a full X11 environment. If you'd rather not run X, the same Trolltech Qt/e that's running on the Zaurus will run on the iPaq as well.

you can find more screenshots here

and more info here here

this runs on top of the familiar linux distribution. and works on a compaq ipaq as well (although, not the 3800 series).

It's not full blown JDK...it's Personal Java, which is a subset.

I think an iPaq running Familiar is a better choice for developers and vertical applications (probably the primary market of Linux handhelds).

With the new bootloader, installing Linux on an iPaq should be a breeze, too (no more serial downloads). And you get a full, standard Linux/X11 environment. Compaq even set up some 200MHz ARMs boards as development servers on the web.

I've had my eye on the iPaq H3135. 200MHz StrongARM, 16MB RAM + 16MB ROM. Those specs put the VR3 to shame, and handhelds.org should have all the info on flashing the OS to Linux. Amazon.com is offering them for $150 after rebate.

Note: the status of Linux on the mono iPaq seems to be a little behind the color version, so be sure to check the relevant info on the development site before jumping on the idea.

I've had my eye on the iPaq H3135. 200MHz StrongARM, 16MB RAM + 16MB ROM. Those specs put the VR3 to shame, and handhelds.org should have all the info on flashing the OS to Linux. Amazon.com is offering them for $150 after rebate.

Note: the status of Linux on the mono iPaq seems to be a little behind the color version, so be sure to check the relevant info on the development site before jumping on the idea.

Full blown laptop? Not quite. But try this:

Get a 31xx monoPAQ. Get the compactflash sleeve and the pcmcia sleeve (the latter because it has its own battery). Get a large (5gb) PCMCIA drive (IBM microdrive), a smaller (1gb) CF flash card, a Targus foldable keyboard, a CF 10/100/802.11b card, a PCMCIA 10/100/802.11b card, a PCMCIA Sierra Aircard 510, and a CF vga-out adapter. Find a LCD panel that you like, build a battery pack for it.

Some creative duct taping or plexiglassing and yes sir, you have a Linux-capable computing brick that has a modular power system! Go full-tilt, and you have VGA on a full LCD with a keyboard and your big microdrive. Monitor dies, and you switch back the native screen. PCMCIA battery pack goes down, switch to CF. CF draining you too fast? Switch to internal memory.

If you want to get more creative, try it with the new 38xx series. Has longer battery life and built-in SD so you don't even need a sleeve. Don't forget, for the 31xx and 36xx series ipaqs, you can expand internal memory to 128mb with some creative soldering (read: surface mount).

So let's review your criteria:
1) clear screen: the 36xx has a nice screen, and whatever external LCD you choose could be good.. up to you.
2) decent 2d video: Hrm... well, it runs Quake. You decide.
3) Physical utility: Well, build a padded titanium case for your ipaq and lcd screen. Should be sturdy. Use it as a foot stool.
4) insanely long battery life: modular battery style means you can get long battery life. 12+ hours with the monopaq alone. Since everything else has it's own battery pack (except the CF sleeve), you can mix-n-match. A little creative hackery and you can probably paste an external big battery to the ipaq.
5) networking: 10bt, 100bt, 802.11b wireless, CDPD wireless and CDMA wireless. Sounds good to me.

Sounds fun to me.

I'll stick with my Palm as an organizer, and with the iPaq using the Familiar distribution for developing special purpose handheld software. You can pooh-pooh X11 all you want, it works well, it uses no more resources than QTE, it's free, and it manages to run Gtk+, FLTK, wxWindows, and Qt, all on the same screen.

.. and I predict it will be buried in my closet in 30 days or less...

Why? It's just another novelty. A few apps will be developed for it, sure, but without community support that's where it will stop. I'm sure it runs linux and that's all well and nice, but you know how DIFFICULT it is to make a application that will run in that space and actually be usable?

If you'd like a PDA for daily use as a useful TOOL check out http://www.handhelds.org those folks have got it nailed down to an art, with nice apps being release seems like every day.

For details on running, go here.

The biggest issue is the window manager, and Carl Worth has done a great job of hacking the Ion window manager to be at least adequate.

Also, Mandrake of Elightenment fame is reportedly working on a new wm specifically for handhelds.

The biggest issue is the window manager, and Carl Worth has done a great job of hacking the Ion window manager to be at least adequate.

Also, Mandrake of Elightenment fame is reportedly working on a new wm specifically for handhelds.

USB networking sucks, and hasn't been implemented.

I've got now idea whether the performance would be adequate in a lot of cases, but I can think of a lot of situations where having high speed in only one direction would not be a big problem. I've used X over a modem a few times - it's usable for a few things, and a couple of orders of magnitude more bandwidth would make an enormous difference.

I also like the idea of putting a "laplink" USB cable between a PC and a PS2, and instantly have read/write storage mounted via NFS to provide everything newer than your boot CD or DVD.

Of course - the USB "laplink" cable only gives you 1:1 connectivity.

Firewire has the same major disadvantages of SCSI - price and scarcity, while USB ports are fairly common. That said, you could probably get a PC firewire card for less than the price of the laptop ethernet card you would need for the PS2.

I hear B.I.O. Bugs are quite hackable, and are based on work by roboticist Mark Tilden.

The SliMP3 is quite hackable, as the code's all in Perl (see the developer's list).

LEGO MindStorms are a perennial favorite, and are extremely hackable.

And let's not forget TiVo, which is a hacker's playground.

Finally, one of the new Compaq iPaqs can be hours of fun once you install Linux on it and begin having wireless fun with it.

Are you kidding me? Compaq has another winner, at least in the PPC market and the Linux PDA market. Even though it ships with Wince, Compaq's open-spec policy and general goodness towards "the community", as lead to the IPAQ PDAs being the best PDAs to run Linux on.

Check QT/Palmtop and handhelds.org very cool, also check pocketlinux this is really the most beautiful PDA distro I've ever seen!!
If they can only make installation a bit easier...

Trolltech has some very interesting things like QT/Palmtop a fully fledged palmtop user interface with tools!
BTW nice restyle trolltech!

furthermore: on www.handhelds.org there are some really promising distros for ARM based PDAs

and finially a real beauty: Pocketlinux!! a verty nice distro!!!!

I really can't wait to try these distros on palm hardware!!!

• Symbol Technologies licenses the Palm and creates several units which can do RF, 802.11, and include a barcode scanner (high-output LED)
• Handspring invents the Springboard slot and implements pseudo-USB support for connecting the devices.
• Sony mimics that with the MemoryStick, but adds VFS support, and takes Handspring's USB protocol, changes one function, and makes their own spin on it.
• Handera, formerly TRG builds upon that with a sliding graffiti area (thanks for incorporating my idea from #palmchat back in 1998 on that one), and adds CF and SD slot architectures (still serially connected storage though, can't "run apps" from each card concurrently)
• Palm comes out with the replacement to the Vx, called the m505, and includes the Sony VFS extensions, the Handspring hardware port design (internally) and the Handspring USB modifications, but changes it enough to make yet a third fork of this pseudo-USB protocol. They also make sure to make every single thing about this new device completely incompatible with every single other thing available for their devices, even down to a 2mm change in the stylus length (I have a more detailed enumeration of those changes found here).

Why does Palm think they're about to, in any way, create a new hardware device that they think will surpass these existing innovative devices? Palm is ALWAYS behind the curve on hardware advances in this area. We're not even talking about comparing them to the iPAQ, VTech Helio, Agenda, Yopy, and the other dozens of non-PalmOS, non-WinCE handheld PDA devices.

Currently, Palm's OEMs for the PalmOS® software include:

• Sony
• Handspring
• Handera (formerly TRG)
• Qualcomm (bought out by Kyocera)
• Kyocera
• Symbol Technologies
• ...and others.

They get licensing from each and every one of these OEMs. Their hardware is the last thing to ever be updated. It is without a doubt, the least innovative portion of their business.. and they're choosing to keep it?!

I don't quite understand the motive behind this decision on their part. I suppose I'll find out at Palmsource in February.

Well this is a dilemma, i already have too many damn palms laying around (a VII, IIIc and a Handspring Visor Deluxe I got as a gift) and i had intended to pick up an ipaq, but i'll be damned if it doesn't look like this is a much better solution.

except for:
why so damn tiny? who asked for something that is only slightly larger then a WAP enabled cell phone display.

the iPaq (which my spellchecker wants to call Iraq) has a cell phone module pending, and it will also do GPS. And if you are married to the PalmOS and want color today you can get the color Handspring Visor Prism and add the Cell Phone module for free (with activation) only with neither of these you don't get the spiffy keyboard... (heh) also the prism isn't as quick as the the Treo, though it does have a bigger 16-bit color display today .

oh hell i just talked myself out of the Treo, and another palm... because well... even though i have heard that the cell phone springboard module actually rocks, the PalmOS development seems to be stagnating while the iPaq not only does every goddamn thing in the world and with a better diplay, you can also jack linux into it when you get sick of WinCE.

man... as a long time Apple guy (easy angry kiddys, i have been building x86 boxes since before you were born and EISA was a hot new bus archetecture) i really hate to see what was once the innovator and hands down best hand held solution (PalmOS) get trumped by another microsoft branded product... i'd help them if i can but i already have three...

"I don't really see what Java and Linux bring to a handheld device. "

"One thing that I wonder about this Sharp device - will it support handwriting recognition?"

I can help you a bit with those two questions with one url: xscribble

www.handhelds.org is a good web page devoted to PDA type information. As a point of interest, iPAQs can run Linux in several different flavors. The YOPY kit is rediculously prices and I don't believe I would ever buy one with the advances being made by the developers of Linux on the IPAQ. In my opinion, that is where the fun is if you want to work with Linux on a PDA. If you just want to use a Linux PDA you could get an agenda or wait for perhaps Sharp to release one later this year. HP has also made rumblings about a Linux PDA.

The info is from handhelds.org about running linux on the 3100 series is here.

Presumably, QNX will run on these as well? I guess if you can install Linux, QNX will go on as well. Hopefully the QNX install process with be easier than the Linux one.

Compaq sold me hardware (ipaq) and the freedom to use what software I wanted. I bought a physical device.

HP sold me an "HP/C handheld" (jornada 720). To date, after 8 months of effort, no one from HP will provide any kind of support (flashroms? no - although HP Singapore engineers have such modified 720's; hardware info - none) for the jornada. Buying the jornada based on HP's past excellent support of their calculators (yes I know, different division entirely) and HP 200 'palmtops' was quite a mistake. The jornada is technically a great device but practically useless to me (read, "MS only")

I sincerely hope the HP/Compaq merger does not go through.

Hey, I love my iPaq, but I run intimate Linux on it, and not PocketPC 2002, 2001, etc... (Something about being able to apt-get on a pda is really damn cool.)

The question is, Compaq is decidely pro-Linux, moreso than even Big Blue, but will we start seeing HP support Linux ports to the Jornada series? I LOVE the Jornada form factor, and it would be great if they did!

Would you buy an iPaq with Linux preinstalled? Compaq imports the iPaq from a Taiwanese company and (unconfirmed) has a exclusive contract to import the iPaq with WinCE installed (doesn't say anything about Linux, though).

With Familiar and QPE

I've been noodling with QPE on Familiar and found it to be stellar. I've shown it to some people I work with that use WinCE on the iPaq and they love the QPE look and feel. It's missing an email, web, and desktop sync app, but those can be brought over from KDE. Also needs an easy upgrade path.

What sort of market do people think there might be for iPaq with Linux preinstalled?

I have been very seriously considering buying one of the current iPaq's loaded with windows. I would much rather run linux on it, but the thing sells with windows- and i'm sure it runs very nicely with that OS. I am torn because of the whole 'best tool for the job' issue. Why should i load linux on it when every option for the iPaq runs smoothly with windows? I know compaq has mentioned that they might actually release iPaq's with linux instead of windows. hell, they even have an entire site dedicated to running linux on it. but i'm not sure i want to wait for that.

i guess what i'm looking for is comments from people who have loaded linux on their iPaq. Any problems? I read the latest stable release of Familiar doesn't support the 2 card expansion pack- which i would definitely want.

Check out the Intimate project. The thought of a fully functional Debian-based distro for the iPAQ makes me want to shell out the big bucks for one of these babies. Also, the ability to emulate SNES games on this thing is enough to make me fork a couple hundred over to Compaq.

Check out the Intimate project. The thought of a fully functional Debian-based distro for the iPAQ makes me want to shell out the big bucks for one of these babies. Also, the ability to emulate SNES games on this thing is enough to make me fork a couple hundred over to Compaq.

The CMU speech folks, Alan Black and Kevin Lenzo, told me last Thursday that they'd have a package for the Linux iPAQ in another week. And it's going to be small enough to include by default.
-russ

The place for information about the ipaq running Linux is handhelds.org, not ipaqlinux.com, which hasn't been updated for a year.
-russ

My personal opinion is that PDA's are going to make the same trasformation as PC's:
From personal information storage and computing to communication devices.
What do most of us use our PC's for anyway? Programing? Comon... Our PC's are nothing more then gateways to the internet, which is a communications medium. Thats why pda/phone hybrids are getting so much attention. I really wish I could afordably get my iPaq on to the internet wirelessly. It would quickly become a very useful device rather then just a mobile nethack toy. :)

Have you ever driven to the store on a rider lawnmower? Some things are just fun, not efficient.

Why not just run Linux right on the iPaq?

where to start (-;

the 720 if I recall is a StrongARM powered ( info on devices http://arm.sourceforge.net )

now yes you can get netBSD 1.5.1 for it but you have to do some hacking but there is a step by step guide somewhere

linux wise you can get the source for the kernel @ http://www.arm.linux.org.uk Mr R. King has done alot of work so say thank you to him (dont pester him he wont answer just join the mailing list )

you can also get the familar project up and running from http://www.handhelds.org

Debian is achived by http://intimate.handhelds.org/develstructure.shtml so apt into it (-;

have fun

john jones

While you're probably right about the TiVo, I can't agree that the Familiar Linux distro for the iPaq is a "hack on a closed system", simply because the iPaq is not (IMO) a closed system. You do know that the primary sponsor of the (excellent!) handhelds.org site is Compaq Computer Corporation, right? And that they (Compaq, that is) had their own Linux for the iPaq going initially, but then merged that with Familiar because it was better? Compaq are not behaving in a very proprietary way when it comes to people running "alternative" software on their iPaq... Which is good, because it allowed me to easily port something unexpected. ;^)

The problem is, that it takes a LOT more technical skill and "bravery" to modify these devices that it does to upgrade your video card. How many people own a Torx screwdriver set?

Dell/Gateway/etc would love to be able to sell you a brand new computer every 2 years. They can profit just as much off $1000 computer as they can off $2500 ones.

The iPaq 36xx handheld models have about 206MHz StrongARM processor, with 16-64MB Flash and RAM. They have USB, they have everything. The price vary between $300-$600. ...and the size is about 5x3x0.6 inches, which is much less volume than the cube has.

But, of course, the iPaqs come with LoseCE preinstalled, although Linux works too. I don't know if Apache has yet been ported, but it might have.

While they are not cute cubes, they fit much better in your pocket.

What I'd like to see is server farms based on tiny ipaq-sized low-power processor cards. Just stuff one 4U box full of those and whheeee....

there is a very good article on linux o'reillynet about ipaq running linux...

compaq hosts and sponsors the handhelds.org site, which is a community resource center, primarily for developers, hosting Web, FTP, CVS, and mailing-list services.. the site focuses on linux under strongarm SA11xx processors, such as the ipaq and the yopy, but does not mention work on other processors such as MIPS or 68xxx...

there are few distributions running well on ipaq:
#1# familiar distribution, a lightweight package with python and XFree86 with anti-aliased fonts, using the blackbox window manager. familiar also includes a new packaging system called ipkg, which is like RPM or DEB packages for desktop Linux. compaq had at the beginning its own hh distribution but after a while it swap to familiar...
#2# an extension of familiar is initimate... its goal is to provide "full-blown" distribution including doom, konqueror, mpeg players and stuff like that... but for all of that u will need extra microdrive coz by default ipaq doesn't have enough space...

there are few others but there are not free like trolltech's Qt Palmtop Environment or transvirtual technology's pocketlinux which goal is to provide a java runtime instead of pure linux environment....

imho when u have ssh (included by default) and rxvt w/ gprs modem it is enough to go with it ;) and with familiar dis u will have that and much much more...

there is a very good article on linux o'reillynet about ipaq running linux...

compaq hosts and sponsors the handhelds.org site, which is a community resource center, primarily for developers, hosting Web, FTP, CVS, and mailing-list services.. the site focuses on linux under strongarm SA11xx processors, such as the ipaq and the yopy, but does not mention work on other processors such as MIPS or 68xxx...

there are few distributions running well on ipaq:
#1# familiar distribution, a lightweight package with python and XFree86 with anti-aliased fonts, using the blackbox window manager. familiar also includes a new packaging system called ipkg, which is like RPM or DEB packages for desktop Linux. compaq had at the beginning its own hh distribution but after a while it swap to familiar...
#2# an extension of familiar is initimate... its goal is to provide "full-blown" distribution including doom, konqueror, mpeg players and stuff like that... but for all of that u will need extra microdrive coz by default ipaq doesn't have enough space...

there are few others but there are not free like trolltech's Qt Palmtop Environment or transvirtual technology's pocketlinux which goal is to provide a java runtime instead of pure linux environment....

imho when u have ssh (included by default) and rxvt w/ gprs modem it is enough to go with it ;) and with familiar dis u will have that and much much more...