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You've had three Honda's and they've only lasted for 75K, 120K and 90K and you still keep buying them? Those numbers translate to (approx) 45,000, 72,000 and 54,000 miles.

Honda gives a 100,000 km warranty on all there cars (60,000 miles).

Assuming miles...

Honda says for US models 3 year / 36,000 miles comprehensive 5 years/60,000 on the drive train. The warranty on older cars might have been less.

So... it is possible that this person experenced some sort of failure at 75K, 120K and 90K. In my experence, the 70s and early 80s hondas tended to have issues with the heads warping. I seem to remember the 1976 CVVC had that issue, but the miles were above and beyond 150k. While I might complain, my father was fond of the 1984 Buick... he bought two of them, neither of them lasted beyond 100k due to failing oil pumps AFAIK, and each of them was bought used.

Jet engines, the last time I checked, were fairly inefficient in terms of miles per gallon....

According to the A380 Specifications page, the A380 has a maximum range of 8,000 miles and a fuel capacity of 81,890 US Gallons. This means it flys with an average 0.098 mpg.

A 2005 Honda Civic Sedan with an automatic, according to Honda's Specifications, has an EPA rating of 29/38 mpg - three orders of magnitude better than the A380.

But, remember that the A380 is moving 555 people so it's not quite an apples to apples comparison.

Assuming the average number of people in the Honda is two, the mpg per person on the highway (which is probably the more accurage comparison) is 76 mpg.

Now, comparing this to the A380 with an average passenger load of 525, the mpg per person is 51 mpg. So by going on a purely mpg comparison, the A380 is about two thirds as efficient as the Civic.

BUT this doesn't take into account the fact that the A380 will probably only have 4 pilots (or less than 0.8% of the people on board) to go 8,000 miles (but fully 50% of the people in the Civic are responsible for driving 8,000 miles) and the A380 will take 15 hours or so to go 8,000 miles and each Civic will take 123 hours (assuming no stops) to go 8,000 miles at 65 miles per hour.

myke

I think the Honda Civic Hybrid looks like a real car.

Also, since the peak horsepower of a car is rarely needed except in rapid acceleration, I would think that the key to reducing engine size, and thus, improving efficiency would be to use a small engine with some kind of storage system. Since batteries are bad for the environment, maybe two flywheels rotating in opposite directions (to cancel out precession) under the floor can be used, along with an electric motor/generator to transfer power to/from them. Extra power generated by the engines, as well as from braking, can be used to accelerate the flywheels.

It's a nice car, but isn't practical for most people. (Any room for groceries?) Personally, I like the Honda Civic Hybrid. Approx. 50 miles to the gallon, that's about 650 miles in one 13 gallon tank. And it holds several people. Still not the most fuel efficient vehicle, but it's so much better than the gas guzzling SUVs consumer America is obsessed with.

I believe you are wrong on both of your statements. Lets start with the transmission being necessary for hybrids. All current hybrid cars on the market have transmissions. Many have really cool CVTs, while others have stick shifts. If you don't believe me, check out Honda's web site. (it is true that a certain bus featured on slashdot used electric motors with no transmissions attached, but I doubt that this system would work well on standard cars/SUVs)

I admit to not knowing a lot about electric motors (other than the basic concept of how they work). However, I am positive that what you say about them not having an 'optimal' RPM is wrong. I can prove this to you simply by taking a look at some extremes:

If you apply very little juice to an electric motor, it will not spin, not having enough power to overcome friction. So clearly, electric motors are not efficient at the extreme low end (since you get no output power for an input power).

At the other extreme, if you keep adding more juice, at some point the electric motor will not produce as much power per additional amount added. If, for no other reason, friction affects will increase with speed. Granted, this might happen past the motors rated capacity, but stick with me here...

If you believe what I said above, that there is some positive power input where you get no power output, and there is some positive power input where adding additional power will not produce the same change in power output, it is obvious that if you graphed the efficiency of electric motors, it will have to have a maximum (because we have a point where you have 0% efficiency, and a point where efficiency is decreasing, and since you have motors that work, we know that in between we have to have positive numbers). Now, electric motors might have a flatter maximum, where they run at nearly peak efficiency over a wide range, but that doesn't mean that they don't have an 'optimal' RPM.

I read an article in Discover or Scientifc American (can't remember which!) recently detailing the shift to alternative fuels. Not only is it a challenge to develop applicable technologies that are economical for end users, an even greater challenge will be to develop the infrastructure necessary to support these vehicles. We take for granted that one can stop at a gas station and fill up. If one we're driving a propane-powered vehicle, one would require an appropriate filling station.

http://www.hondacars.com/models/model_overview.asp ?ModelName=Civic%20GX

I wouldn't mind having one myself. You can get this little appliance called a phill ( http://www.fuelmaker.com/phill/) that will recharge the car's tank at home. It's slow, but convenient - plug it in at home overnight. Or you can charge it fast at a commercial station (there's one five minutes from home, for me). This would be a pretty good commuter car.

The SMALLEST Dodge truck with a V8 Hemi gets 17mpg HIGHWAY (14 City). See here.

A Mid-Sized SUV, the Durango, with the same V8 Hemi gets 14/19 (city/hwy) mpg. You can check that here.

For comparison, a 2004 Civic gets between 29 and 44 (!) mpg, depending on city or highway, and what trim level you get. See proof here.

I drive such a car, and my wife drives one with less power and more weight, and merging onto busy highway traffic is NEVER a problem. The only problem we have is with GIANT trucks riding our asses because they want to go 90 mph, so that they can be ABSOLUTELY SURE that they get less than 10mpg, even on the highway.

So the average Civic gets something like 34+ mpg, or about TWICE what even a modest sized truck/SUV gets. That doesn't even take into account the hybrid Civic, which gets upwards of 50 mpg!

So, before you call someone, in effect, an idiot, you should check your facts. Otherwise, you are the one who doesn't "have any idea what your talking about".

At least the Honda Civic Hybrid looks like a normal car.

Don't forget, there's a lot of "imagineering" going on to produce cars these days...

Like the braintrust that came up with what I would dare say is the fugliest car evar... the Honda Element. I can say with confidence that a 10 year old could come up with a more aesthetically-pleasing look for that piece of trash.

But SUVs, Hummers and those station wagons with wood panels on the side? Oh God, make it stop.

Maybe you should tell Honda that their website is wrong.

The honda civic hybrid looks basically the same as the normal civic, and starts at about $20k.

MPG:
CVT.... 48/47mpg
Manual. 46/51mpg
Gas.... 13/12mpg

When using gas, you're getting 13.2/11.9mpg. Thus, don't plan on a lot of quick accelleration (as when you're at WOT) or you will be eating gas at nearly the same rate as a hummer.

2000-current Honda Insight, 2-seater:
http://www.hondacars.com/models/model_overview.asp ?ModelName=Insight

2003-current Honda Civic Hybrid 5-passenger compact sedan:
http://www.hondacars.com/models/model_overview.asp ?ModelName=Civic+Hybrid

2001-2003 Toyota Prius 5-passenger compact sedan:
http://www.toyota.com/prius

2004 Toyota Prius 5-passenger midsize liftback:
http://www.toyota.com/prius/minisite/index.html
(for those who dislike Flash, info here:
http://www.toyota.com/prius/minisite/html/printabl e.html and here http://www.toyota.com/prius/minisite/specs/specs_b ody.html )

if you live in Japan there is also the hybrid
Estima (7-8 passenger minivan similar to the Previa),
and the mild-hybrid Crown large sedan.

if you can wait a year or so, Ford should have out
their hybrid Escape (info: http://www.hybridford.com (Flash only),
a "small" SUV/CUV that actually has towing capacity.
Lexus should also have their RX330 hybrid (the
RX400H) small SUV/CUV out (see http://www.lexus.com/about/hybrid/index.html
with Toyota shortly following with the hybrid
Highlander cousin.

I've also heard of the GM/Saturn Vue, the Nissan
Altima (I think that's the model), and the Toyota
Sienna, as next on the block with hybrid powertrains
(i.e. full/assist hybrids).

2000-current Honda Insight, 2-seater:
http://www.hondacars.com/models/model_overview.asp ?ModelName=Insight

2003-current Honda Civic Hybrid 5-passenger compact sedan:
http://www.hondacars.com/models/model_overview.asp ?ModelName=Civic+Hybrid

2001-2003 Toyota Prius 5-passenger compact sedan:
http://www.toyota.com/prius

2004 Toyota Prius 5-passenger midsize liftback:
http://www.toyota.com/prius/minisite/index.html
(for those who dislike Flash, info here:
http://www.toyota.com/prius/minisite/html/printabl e.html and here http://www.toyota.com/prius/minisite/specs/specs_b ody.html )

if you live in Japan there is also the hybrid
Estima (7-8 passenger minivan similar to the Previa),
and the mild-hybrid Crown large sedan.

if you can wait a year or so, Ford should have out
their hybrid Escape (info: http://www.hybridford.com (Flash only),
a "small" SUV/CUV that actually has towing capacity.
Lexus should also have their RX330 hybrid (the
RX400H) small SUV/CUV out (see http://www.lexus.com/about/hybrid/index.html
with Toyota shortly following with the hybrid
Highlander cousin.

I've also heard of the GM/Saturn Vue, the Nissan
Altima (I think that's the model), and the Toyota
Sienna, as next on the block with hybrid powertrains
(i.e. full/assist hybrids).

my wife and i purchased a honda civic hybrid. we considered the insight, but use it for extended road trips so the civic was more practical, though slighly worse on the milage. our experience has been great so far--including a 3500 mile road trip for about $125 in gas.
the milage is around 45/55 depending on conditions
size/drive is identical to the regular civic
it costs ~ u$19,000, but you get a u$2,000 tax deduction
oil changes are a little more ($40) as it uses 0/20 oil, but if you use the dealer, we get an extra 2 year warranty.
it is quiet it uses a CVT so it is an incredibly smooth drive
pleanty of power of detroit[read:insane] driving from an 84in3 4cyl.

all in all, i cannot recommend this car more.

Have you looked an a honda insight? It looks strange and is horridly over priced considering it's functionality. great gas milage, but as a family car it falls short of even the accord or camry.

Exactly... The market always tends towards monopoly. Either through collusion, (why should companies try to outdo each other when they can help maintain a comfortable status quo?) or competition eliminating the weaker of the competitors through natural market conditions. Of course, that doesn't mean the natural market condition is what is actually wanted, it's a fallacy of capitalism. People won't just 'play fair'. Oh yes, here's some insight about your gas price problem.

Establishment science is a byproduct of dominant political and economic interests. (Some people don't like to hear that.) So, what kind of energy systems will emerge under a political and economic order that has been controlled, at least for the last 100 years, by corrupt oil money? Wide adoption of viable alternative energy systems would completely subvert the dominant paradigm (the U.S. imposed global economic and political order) and depose long established elites.

The only way that any paradigm breaking technologies will emerge is if we (average people) build them ourselves. This work must be carried out by the non experts among us, the laymen and the backyard tinkerers because the alleged "scientists" are too busy maintaining the status quo on the road to oblivion.

To wit:

I recently came up with an idea that might allow for the creation of a vehicle that burns no non renewable hydrocarbons (gasoline) and in fact runs on solar power and water.

"Whuuuh?" you ask. Forget about what "CAN'T" happen for a few minutes and keep reading!

!WARNING! I have done NO research on actually building this prototype. In fact, I have no experience at all with high voltage electrical systems, generators, explosive gasses or internal combustion engines. Actually attempting to execute the following ideas may be very dangerous.

And if I had the money, I'd be out right now trying to do this. ;)

Let's get down to it:

Hybrid gasoline-electric cars use both conventional gas burning and electrical engines. If you want to know more about how hybrid cars work, see howstuffworks.com for an excellent summary. Hopefully, someone out there has a pioneering spirit, a full workshop and access to, and ability to modify, a Toyota Prius or Honda Insight.

In my opinion, the primary problem with hybrid gas-electric cars is that THEY STILL BURN GASOLINE. My idea is primarily concerned with eliminating the need to use any gasoline at all (or any other filthy, proprietary fuel) in a vehicle that is, for all intents and purposes, extremely well engineered and efficient.

The question then becomes: What type of fuel would the vehicle's internal combustion engine burn?

Behold, JL Naudin's Bingo Fuel Reactor.

Passing current through carbon electrodes immersed in ORDINARY TAP WATER produces gas that can power conventional internal combustion engines. See Naudin's incredible demonstration in which he powers a 5 kilowatt Honda generator directly with the gas from his BingoFuel Reactor. Ok, class, pay attention: Look at the specification for the type of fuel required to run that Honda generator. It's supposed to run on automotive unleaded gasoline (minimum 86 pump octane). Yep, that's the same automotive unleaded gasoline that you put in your car, or in those Honda and Toyota hybrids.

Obviously, to get that gas out of the water, current must be passed through the carbon electrical array.

To all of you people out there shaking your heads, mumbling, "This is 11th grade chemistry class electrolysis, this takes too much power," stick with me.

Look at what Naudin says about the BingoFuel system vs. electrolysis:

It is interesting to notice that in this test of a 1 cell BingoFuel Reactor, the current used is 81.6 Amperes (see Test#1). With a same value of current used in a 1 cell electrolyser the volume of the of H2 is 36 liters per hour (at 20C). There is 46% of H2 in the synthetic gas genera

The Fuitsu S2000 [fujitsupc.com] is using these new chips from AMD.

Maybe the Honda 2000 will use them too someday.

of course, I meant the Civic GX. Oh well.

looks like hybrids are it for the next few years

Not necessarily. Honda has the Civic Si which runs off of natural gas. Think it would be hard to find a filling station? For $1000 you can retrofit your gasline to be a pump. Pretty cool if you ask me. I especially like Honda saying that the exhaust from the car is cleaner than ambient air in some cities. Kinda disturbing.

Case

Have you seen the S2000.
Or maybe the 350Z
Or maye a quad cab pickup with a V8
Are they the worlds fastest, most powerfull cars? No.
Do we settle for less than the absolute fastest (PC|Car|whatever). Mostly.
Would you like to own any of these 3 vehicles? I bet yes.

We are barely moving towards environmentally safe cars. Think of the horrible traffic accidents in the air!

Looking at the available technologies (fuel cells,battery electric, and hybrids to name a few), there isn't a lot of choices right now on the market. One of the more interesting ones I saw were the bi-fueled vehicles, takes ethanol or gas and runs the same. Don't forget to check out GM's alternative vehicles in addition to Ford's. You can easily grab a Toyota Prius or Honda Civic Hybrid like I did.

The new honda hybrids look just like regular civics. You'll probably still call them gook cars just to prove you're a real American.

The MSRP on a 2003 Ford F-150 is around $20,000 USD.

The MSRP on a 2003 Honda Insight is about the same, $20,000 USD.

It's clear that the hybrid car at roughly the same price will start saving you money almost immediately.

"And I don't know if you've noticed, but electricity hasn't been getting that much cheaper lately..."

I don't know if you understand the concept of a hybrid vechicle then. A hybrid does not require any outlet to plug into. It uses an internal generator to capture the kinetic power from braking and stores it in a battery for you to use. There's no cost for that electricity. No power cords, just pull up to your local Exxon. Honda has some good info on how the hybrids work.

the hybrid cars of today require you to change the batteries every 3 yrs and
it costs $6000-7000 to replace them and they are not as powerful now. But maybe
all this will change by 2012.

Where'd you get that information?? Honda is giving an 8-year 80K mile warranty on its Hybrid batteries. Their claim is replacement at around 10 years, and about $1000 at today's prices ($1K price told to me by a Honda dealer), which will probably come down as the first hybrids need their replacements.

I've never found a site that doesn't work with Mozilla.

http://www.hondacars.com/

You mean like the Honda Civic Hybrid?

Even if my browser is not supported by your website, I'd still like to be able to see it. I don't care if not all of your "special features" work! What a way to enforce browser homogeneity.

regenerative braking, not sure what technologies are used by it.

Just a note ahead of time. Some of the cars listed below are only available in certain parts of California and are only available in relatively low numbers.

Pure Electric:

2002 The Nissan Altra EV (pilot?)
2002 Ford Thi!nk City
2002 Toyota Rav4-EV
2002 Lido Motors Lido
2002 Ford Ranger EV (fleet only?)
2002 Nissan HyperMini (pilot only?)
Selectria Force (out of production?)

Hybrids:

2003 Honda Civic Hybrid
2002 Honda Insight
2002 Toyota Prius

Web Sites of Interest:

EV World
US DoE Alternative Fuel Car Buying Guide (many listed)
US DoE Alternative Fuel Vehicle Listing (many listed)
California ZEV Buyers Guide

The Honda Insight is a lovely peice of work.

Certainly as a Hybrid it's not the greenest solution (compared to an all-electric), but it fairs well (at nearly 70 Miles Per Gallon it's one of the most efficent Diesel engines in the world) and it has very quick acceleration for a Hybrid, and I think it still manages to look pretty sexy.

The real bonus is that although it is a Diesel/Electric Hybrid you never have to recharge! It automatically regarchages whenever you decelerate (IIRC). This means you can travel long distances, e.g. cross country, without worring about having to recharge.

Honda have been selling them at an 18,000 USD loss IIRC.

I don't own a car (mmm public transportation) but if I did it would be one of these.

I think the only downside would be lack of space, like a lot of regular environmentally friendly cars.

Other notes: A hybrid (Prius, Insight, Civic Hybrid) does not qualify for an electric vehicle tax credit, but does qualify for a "clean fuel" tax deduction, for up to $2000 (you needn't itemize to take the deduction). A hybrid may or may not qualify you to single-passenger-drive in HOV lanes... in California, it does not. This is typically because hybrids (burning gasoline) are not regarded by the goverment as true "alternative fuel" vehicles.

Disclaimer: I own an Insight, have put almost 50k miles on it and overall I've averaged 74 mpg. That means I spend about half as much on gas as people driving a regular Civic. It is ULEV-rated for emissions and the Insight tops the list of the Top 10 or so most fuel-efficient cars you could ever get in the U.S. I love my car. You could say that makes me a bit biased.

I'm currently in the market for a small car to use mainly for commuting to and from work, mostly highway driving. No public transportation system nearby, and a small motorcycle isn't pratical in Ohio. I looked into some of the so-called "eco-friendly" cars that are available today, but was turned-off by how ugly most of these are. So far I've found the Toyota Prius, Toyota RAV4-EV, Honda Civic Hybrid, and the Honda Insight. I understand that optimizing aerodynamics is important for efficient energy usage, but a few of these cars would be decent looking cars with a few minor changes. The Insight is very CRX-like if they got rid of the wheel covers, the Civic Hybrid looks very similar to the standard Civic except for the odd colors, the RAV4-EV uses an old body style rather than the sleek body of the r-estyled standard RAV4, and the Prius has a pretty decent style but is rather small. With only a couple thousand dollar difference between a standard small car and an "eco-friendly" model, I think there'd be increased consumer interest in these vehicles if the manufacturers focused a little more on giving these cars a more standard style that blends in a bit on the road rather than giving them an unattractive design just for the sake of making them stand out or having some space-age look to them.

• http://www.toyota.com/html/shop/vehicles/prius/ide x.html, Toyota Prius, currently available
• http://civichybrid.honda.com/, Honda Civic Hybrid, due out RSN, starting to be available for test drives
• http://www.hondacars.com/models/insight/index.html , Honda Insight, currently available
• http://rav4ev.toyota.com/, Toyota RAV4 EV (it's not a hybrid, sorry), only available in CA currently
• http://uktoyotaestimasite.tripod.com/, Toyota Estima, hybrid minivan. Not currently scheduled for release in the US
• http://hybridford.com/, Ford Escape, SUV, planned to be available in 2003. Ford licensed the Toyota HEV system for this

• http://www.ucsusa.org/vehicles/0mapveh.html, http://www.epa.gov/autoemissions/, The EPA's Clean Vehicle Guide
• http://carpoint.msn.com/browse/win_4018922.asp, http://www.cars.com/carsapp/national/?srv=parser&a ct=display&tf=/advice/bestworst/mileage/best_worst . mpl, 2002 overall fuel economy results
• http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bestworst.shtml, Vehicle fuel economy by class
• http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/drive.shtml, Tips to improve your gas mileage
• http://www.ita.doc.gov/td/auto/cafe.html, http://www.ucsusa.org/vehicles/CAFE.html, Information about the CAFE standards
• http://www.greenercars.org/, The American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy (ACEEE)

Hybrid Electric Vehicles are neat too:

Honda Insight: 61/68mpg manual, 57/56 automatic
Toyota Prius: 52/45mpg automatic
Honda Civic Hybrid: 48/47mpg manual, 46/51 automatic

A real budget vehicle is $17K. and vehicles that should be bought by most (honda Insight and the other super green cars) cost insane prices ($32K for the insight and more for the GM offering)

Actually, if the handheld trickle charged from a PV coating, it would extend battery life significantly, if not indefinitely. Most people don't use their handheld anywhere near 8 hours a day. Next generation combination gameboy, handheld, cellphone, wireless web, etc. may have a much higher duty cycle and the trickle charging effect may not be enough to help significantly.

Cheap PV is not even close for the rest of the world to tell the oil-producing nations to stuff it. Breakthroughs in energy storage are also essential. The tranportation sector used 26.6 percent of the total USA energy demand in 2000. But consumed 68% of the petroleum used. Why? -- primarily storage density, convenience, and portability. Coal is messy for end-consumers, nuclear & hydro are not portable (as are non-solar renewables). This leaves petroleum as a practical transportation energy source.

Duty cycle is very important for PV charged devices. Daily commute on PV charged electric vehicles, no problem. Driving from Chicago to Disneyland for vacation, big problem. Hybrid vehicle with PV charging, and gasoline burner to charge system when duty cycle is extended sounds great. Problem is energy storage density in the batteries

The Honda Insight hybrid is a good consumer design hybrid because it does not attempt to store a significant amount of power -- only 6.5 amp hours (144 volt). This is enough to run the 10 KW electric motor at full power for 5.6 minutes. To make PV trickle charged vehicles useful for the typical consumer, energy storage must be improved, and that has been only slowly getting better.

Cheap PV charging for long-haul trucking, etc. does not help significantly because the duty cycle is simply insurmountable, but could be useful for running the refrigeration units, or reducing energy costs, but these types of vehicles will still need a means to quickly take of fuel / recharge while in use.

Finally, the energy storage mechanism is just as big of a problem for distributed grid power. Electricity is produced on demand, and only rarely stored becaused there is not an economical method to store/retrieve large amounts of energy. Due to large differences in peak/nighttime energy cost off the grid, there are some systems in place that work, but none of them are really economical for large scale deployment, and they also lose a large fraction of the energy. Energy trasnmission losses are generally under 5%, mostly much lower. Store/release energy loses are sometimes higher than 30% (pump water uphill at night, flow downhill through a turbine at peak -- one of the more successful methods BTW). Possible energy storage methods include : better batteries, rechargable fuel-cell (aka battery), synthetic hydrocarbons, hydrogen, or other substitute for petroleum.

I'm not knocking cheap PV, but don't think this solves all of our energy problems. You want to be as rich as Bill G, solve the energy storage problem. If you would be happy just being as rich as your average billionare, solve the problem with converting all the cheap PV direct current into alternating current (with small loss in a low-cost, low-maint device, able to sync with the grid)