Slashdot Mirror
Review Of GM's HyWire Hydrogen Concept Car
SanLouBlues writes "Autoweek has a detailed review of a test drive in GM's HyWire concept (second item). The gas and brakes are both on the steering wheel which may be placed on either the left or the right with little effort. Overall some very positive marks for such a radical car."
but then CowboiNeal ran out of beans, so they ran out of fuel.
Cretin - a powerful and flexible CD reencoder
Chicken feces is the future of fuel.
Chickens: Pets, Food, Feathers for Pillows and Feces for FUEL!
WHERE CAN THE MATTER BE Oh, dear, where can the matter be When it's converted to energy? There is a slight loss of parity. Johnny's so long at the fair
Will anyone buy it?
No
Your average guy is happy with his huge and inefficent motor-machine
Untill the goverment MAKES people do something about their waste - People will do nothing
Sad but true - We are a messy race
I don't know about anyone else, but personally I don't consider adding to the number of tasks performed by my hands to be an engineering acheivement. Why don't they work on steering with your feet? Then I could have both hands free while driving.
-- Adam
As for the drive by wire, brake by wire, does that mean we will finally have real "backseat drivers"?
Ah, so the familiar motion of going for the horn might produce either a burst of acceleration or a sudden stop. Is the horn on the floor?
Don't give any comments like what if the drive-by-wire computer crash. Chances are that you will be killed because you have massive internal injuries when you crashed into the steering column, that your legs will be crushed because there are a bunch of pipes carrying transmission and brake fluids.
Drive by wire --- No engine and transmission to work around. No steering column. No pedals, no need for a cross-car dashboard.
But why does it have to be so damn ugly?? Is that the company's way of making sure the thing doesn't get accepted??
If it's ugly, the consumers won't like it and thus the whole concept will be proven to be unacceptable... hmmm...
WTF?
You are advocating cars with the brakes and the accelerator on the steering wheel and a tank full of hydrogen underneath? Looks like it's time to move to one of those islands where they don't have cars.
People still have trouble with the accelerator and brake pedals in their traditional spot. Now you want to put them on the steering wheel? I'd really rather not have one of these coming toward me.
Fiddling about! Fiddling about!
Part of the reason these hybrid cars aren't taking off in some circles is because, quite frankly, they look retarded.
People don't want a car that looks like a bubble with three wheels or controls in places they're not accustomed to.
People just want a car! Plain and simple. Most people don't care what is under the hood as long as the car is familiar(controls where they should be, etc..) and they can fuel up anywhere. Cars are meant for convenience as far as most people are concerned. Despite what really bad Sci-fi movies would have you believe, the 21st century just isn't ready for some of these new radical concept designs.
"People should be allowed to keep midgets as pets."
- Gov. Jesse Ventura
Push the joy stick forward to accelerate, pull it back to brake, lean it left and right to steer. The trigger is the emergency brake, and the thumb button turns your car back upright when you roll it.
What else do you need?
There is nothing so silly as other peoples traditions, and nothing so sacred as our own.
what ever happened to "if it aint broke, dont fix it?" I dont see why we were having such a problem using our feet so as to need us to use our hands for brakes/gas.
How long will take to implement these types of vehicles in America? I'm betting it will be difficult to break the special-interest deathgrip that Big Oil has on America. These new vehicles, while fantastic for the environment (and for many other things), will no doubt eat into the profit of major corporations that depend on America's crippling reliance on petroleum products.
I hope for a speedy incorporation of this wonderful technology, but I prepare for the typical halts to progress that corporations often impose.
Transistors and Beer!!
As hybrid vehicles go, the Gas/Electric hybrids like Toyota's Prius are cool. They also feel like you're driving a cardboard box.
Diesel has made much more progress in the past few years as far as an efficient fuel than gas. Try on the Turbo-charged VW Diesel Jetta for a great drive w/ superb miles to the gallon.
A marriage between these technologies is a great deal for the auto industry, the environment and everything else. The one question is $.
Will the manufacturers be able to bring the price down far enough to entice Soccer Moms everywhere that their SUV can be environmentally friendly and fuel efficient?
Governments could offer serious incentives to consumers in the area of tax credits for purchasing such vehicles. Hell, I'd buy one if the deal was sweet enough.
The article isn't about a hydrogen car, it's about a military hybrid. Jesus, these editors are unbelievable.
This little machine won't let you turn wide angle if you go fast. You want to turn, you slow down.
Damn, hope they included a huge horn(y) into this.
Seriously, $400,000 each!?! I'm having a hard enough time paying taxes anyway, I don't need my government wasting it on this fuel cell stuff. I'd wager dollars to pesos nothing ever comes of this, a fuel cell simply can't generate enough power to run a vehicle, and while I do respect the fact that the army is trying to do something to cut costs, it certainly isn't going to affect me for a while. Even if they do succeed in making this kind of stuff, you can mark my words, the private sector won't see this any time soon. I give it another 10 years at least.
So the Army can buy 30,000 of these and I can't even get one? Great.
-- Thou hast strayed far from the path of the Avatar.
It sounds like the car is fueled by hydrogen. People won't buy the cars until they can get hydrogen fuel at nearly every corner gas station. Nobody want's to travel a long way to buy gas, or worse, find themselves low on gas 100 miles from the nearest hydrogen station.
The gas stations will not invest in the eqipment to dispense hydrogen until there's a large number of the cars on the road that can use it.
Jason ProfQuotes
... are german ones. Personally I'd go for the fuel cell powered version of the BMW 7 series. Kicks seriously ass.
(bmw)
Hello, I'm an electric car. I can't go very fast, or very far, and if you drive me everyone will think you're gay!
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
And more importantly, where's the hydrogen-distributing power stations? And even more importantly, where's the cheap and plentiful hydrogen production mechanism?
Hydrogen hybrid cars are all well and nice, but they don't get us anywhere. At the moment the only ways to produce hydrogen are expensive and inefficient, and end up costing more "regular" energy (usually provided by fossil fuels or nuclear power) to produce. Electrolysis is good to play with in the physics labs at school, but when it comes to produce very large quantities of Hydrogen for mass consumption it's worth practically zero.
I read a while ago in New Scientist that some group in Japan was trying to use a solar-pumped laser in a satellite to convert large quantities of salt water (in a big tank on an island) with an added catalyst, into hydrogen. That's the sort of news which are worth noting when it comes to cleaner fuels. Once hydrogen is available in every gas station, oil will die off naturally. Until hydrogen can be produced cheaply and in very large quantities, there's not going to be hydrogen in gas stations, and all these hybrid efforts are just lip service to make Sunday Ecologists feel better about themselves, so presenting this sort of news as a notable even in the move towards cleaner fuels is like saying "Microsoft issues a new patch for IIS, saves the internet from script kiddies".
Daniel
Carpe Diem
and it STILL doesn't fly. Losers.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I haven't seen a concept that ugly since the "new bug"
So that the people running the project can buy the new Hy-Wire car instead?
Jason
ProfQuotes
Also thais car has a body that can be changed so if you deside to replace your car you can keep bottom part (engine and transmition etc.) and replace body. Than we will have a litle less waist maybe and maybe finaly more efficien engine will be desined and once body rusted out we will just replace it saving money and nature. Very exiting...
Okay, this it totally off topic, but it is so good. The new character for the Lord of the Rings, and the absolute end of civilization as we know it.
(Jar) Jar omir
I must say, this looks pretty snazzy. Assuming it would hold up in a crash (which, I'm sure, will be addressed). With the suicide-hinge rear doors, some impressive engineering will have to go into making this crash-worthy. (Why do you think they call them "suicide doors"?)
Send your friends messages of love at fuck-you.org
Assuming that energy has to be expended to produce hydrogen in the first place, does anyone have any idea on what the net environmental effect of a fuel cell car is versus a traditional ICE one?
Obviously, there are economies of scale in producing hydrogen in mass quantities, but it seems to me the claims that GM has made to the effect of removing the car as a significant factor in the environment are utter horsehockey.
If your bitterest enemies are people who hack the heads off civilians, then I would say you're doing something right.
Oh, right: "If cars were like computers, we'd be driving a flying car that got 1,000 miles to the ounce"
Next?
Pentagon Seeks Robots: You could win $1 Million
Gm states that you can tune your car to your specifications (handling, braking, etc) by loading a new program... People can barely drive as it is, is this REALLY a good idea? Of course, I would LOVE something like this. Then again, I also get the humor in the commercial that goes "Jim I think I fried the motherboard and the fatherboard too." And contrary to what you all are posting, I really like the futuristic look of this car... really cool. The freedom of vision is unprecedented. Just dont make it tooo customizeable. Crash your computer, oh well, crash your car... ::shrugs::
This is my sig. Its pathetic.
"The gas and brakes are both on the steering wheel"
So now we will have Mrs. soccer mom, in her highly explosive hydro-mini-van. Talking on her cell phone, and doing her make-up WHILE driving. But now both gas and brake control, in addition to steering, will be lost as her hands are full with the eye liner and cell!!!
I'm not even going to bother asking about getting a stick-shift version :)
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Another brilliant bit of motivation. Not!
I was already concerned about having the "pedals" on the steering wheel but, now you want me to face a roadway full of people that learned to drive by playing Vice City?????
God help us all.
"The driver operates the brakes very intuitively by automatically tightening the hand grips in a braking situation,"
That's about the only part of this configuration I have a problem with. Frequently, you tighten your grip when on a bumpy road, tenseness, whatever. Having that be the braking signal may not be what you want at that time.
I've been following this thing from some time.
Quick points:
- You can't really 'skin' it. Yes, the shells are interchangeable, but at the factory. A home user bolting on one of these in his/her garage is opening up all sorts of safety concerns.
- Yeah, it's Hydrogen, but it's not gonna blow up. Certainly not as dangerous as the tank of gas in your car. Go read the Wired article if you want details. It's not a rolling Hindenberg.
- The wheels can pivot in any direction, which is why the steering is different. No more parallel-parking mishaps, hopefully.
- They are still more expensive than regular cars, price- and energy-wise, but the trend is looking quite hopeful.
- The space-savings inside the car itself are remarkable, and allow for all sorts of kooky things, such as a floor-to-ceiling windshield. (how weird would that be on the highway?)
- The HyWire is a concept. They won't all be 'ugly'. The whole thing is still a good 10 years away.
GM has gone on the record saying that, because of the elimination of most of the moving parts, these cars could realistically last 20 years. Which is a big concern for GM, obviously having a 20-year-turnover on cars is going to nail their bottom line... until you figure in the savings on engine parts, assembly lines for those engine parts, etc. Suddenly the AUTONOMY is a lot more attractive, as they might eventually cost a fraction of what regular cars do. GM recoups the lost turnover sales from the other 80% of the planet who can now afford a vehicle. And we get cool pivoting space-cars that cost $5000 and go for 2 decades.
If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
That sounds too much like the gyroscopic type vehicle from South Park. I wonder if GM will offer the driver stability probes front and rear?
I hope their crack marketting department doesn't think of calling it "Hindenberg".
Trolling is a art,
Hmmm, brakes, steering etc, ALL by wire ?!?!?!
Anyone else remember how much fun GM antilock brakes were when they came out ?
Or airbags, or any other GM (or any auto maker) first is in production ?
Dealers are gonna lve this one and so are their service techs.
Customer, ummmmm for NO reason my car excellerated when I was about to run into the car in front of me.
Dealer, well what did you do ?
Customer, I grabbed the wheel to brace for the impact.
Dealer, well that was your problem, see you have to let go of the wheel to brake.
Do a google for BioDiesel
Sounds screwy but its true - used oil from deep fat fryers can easily be converted to a CARBON NEUTRAL FUEL
I am very easy to get along with, but I don't have time to waste being nice to people who are being stupid. -Theo
If you are using the trigger as the emergency brake then, the thumb button must be to fire the machine guns or missiles. Any dummy knows that.
Capable of 97 mph and long-range travel, the HydroGen3 would satisfy most drivers' needs today.
Is this equivalent to the infamous quote: "Nobody will ever need more than 640k RAM..."?
I would hope that you could hack the "skateboard" so you can go faster than 97 mph. Can you imagine the mod chip business for this?
I only mod up parents of "mod parent up" posts...
(second item on the blog)
TOKYO (Dec. 2, 2002) - Federal Express Corporation ("FedEx Express") and General Motors Corp ("GM") announced a joint program to advance fuel cell technology by conducting the first commercial test of a fuel cell vehicle in Japan.
Wouldn't that make their name expand to "Federal Express Express"? Is that like KFC chicken?
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Only when a couple of things happen:
#1. People can't tell that it is not a gas driven car. Either by looks, power, or speed. The only exception will be if it end up having more power/speed.
#2. A law / bill is passed forcing them into market or giving such a large price break on them forces people to by them out of pure guilt.
What have you got under the hood there Franky? -- This is a turbo charged, water cooled, triple output, 4 switch power grid with a inverted v8 power cell.
It is going to take a little bit longer than your typical transition.
Neck_of_the_Woods
#/usr/local/surf/glassy/overhead
...SKF engineers confess that the all-in-one control is meant to emphasize the advantages possible with by-wire technology--it would work just as well with pedals to send the go/stop signals...
Excellent...
-l
Help cure AIDS, cancer, and more. Donate your unused computer time to worldcommunitygrid.org. Join Team Slashdot!
Actually, I wish I was a metamoderator right about now, because pooSmell's very ON TOPIC. It's obvious this is exactly what Bush is doing, and it DOES matter to this story. Granted, I don't Dubya is moderating, and maybe its flamebait, but hey, the guy's got a point.
/used/ a fuel cell. They can't generate electricity worth a crap. They may be more /efficient/ than gas in terms of the amount of energy spent versus that actually captured and put to use, /but/ the actual energy produced is negligible: I think if I remember correctly its /roughly/ 3 times as efficient, but what good is that when an equivalent mass of octane has nearly 20 times the potential energy. So yeah, we waste more with fossil fuels, but we have a LOT more energy to work with.
/does/ have that kind of gas under miles and miles of sand? That's right, Saddam. How did Dub get his money? Oil. Okay, he doesn't run an oil company any more, and everybody that says, "well, it's for his oil buddies," that's just nonsense. But oh, wait, he just passed that dividends tax change: no tax on dividends. You don't suppose he has invested in ... oil companies! Hey, and, he's the Commander-In-Chief -- he's the guy that says "I want a diesel hybrid for the military." And GM makes one, diesel companies' stock prices go through the roof, they start paying tax-free dividends to none other than Bush (and all his oil buddies too). The rich get richer while the poor get poorer.
The hybrid seems like a great idea, right. Fuel cells, ooh, ahh. Have you ever
Now the GOOD news is that it uses diesel, which is better all around than you're regular octane. Granted its a bit more expensive but it burns better, diesel engines are more efficient and burn a heck of a lot cleaner than octane.
SO WHAT'S DUBYA GOT TO DO WITH IT? Yeah, seriously. OIL. If we switch to diesel, we can't get that from the same fields as the rest of our gasoline! Guess who
What a crafty politician he is: the groups that oppose him will just end up making him rich. How many environmentalists wouldn't run out to buy one of these things?
THIS WHOLE THING IS PART OF A VAST RIGHT-WING CONSPIRACY. Try reading between the lines before you start tossing out those moderator points, ok?
That GM somehow cares what the car they sell you runs on.
Why would GM be against electricity?
Why would GM be against hydrogen?
Why would GM be against alcohol?
They sell cars. If you'll pay for it and they can make a profit on it, they want to sell it to you.
This just seems like a stupid conspiracy theory gone awry.
The car rides on a new type of platform called the AUTOnomy platform. This was shown last year on the auto circuit. Why has it taken this long to find this one?
No TiVo and no caffeine make me something something...
I hadn't thought of that. I still imagine that the initial "uptake" of the new technology will be opposed by the traditional power conglomerates. But, if they would just adjust their markets a little, they could totally capitalize on the shift in fuel consumption.
Transistors and Beer!!
To activate GOD mode, tap GAS GAS BRAKE BRAKE BRAKE.
To switch to MIB Speeder mode: BRAKE GAS GAS BRAKE BRAKE BRAKE GAS BRAKE.
WARNING: The PS2 console accessory that allows drivers to play "Grand Theft Auto III" while driving has resulted in serious injury and death. Sony cannot be held liable...
Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
What's with the non-standard UI? Why fix something that isn't broken?
Who do these people thing they are? GNOME or KDE developers?
Everybody knows [reader please select one of:
- Windows XP style gigantic red and blue buttons
- Apple style one button mice and one menu bar
- a pure command line interface, an ESCape meta key and a vi-style seperate insert mode
- three different meta keys, a built-in Mayan calendar and a LISP interpreter in your emacs editor
]is the only true interface!
All else is the devil's spawn! Burn the heretics!
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
from the site"We are driving to have compelling and affordable fuel cell vehicles on the road by the end of the decade."
:-)
In the mean time you can support the detroit project.. Its great, you can help make fun of the Bush administrations
"marijuana helps terrorists" campaign and bash SUV owners at the same
time
This is a horrible design. It is terribly disadvantaged in any kind of collision with anything other than another of its kind (or possibly a mini.) Yeah, you have a great view of the road, but that's because there's nothing much between you and it.
I suspect, once the initial giddiness of their engineers subsides, that you'll see a return to more traditional configurations. They're going to have to put a rollcage of some kind in (center posts.) They're going to have to have something to hide the airbags in (dashboard.) And they're going to have to substitute something for the impact-dampening block of steel that used to be up front (buckets of sand?)
One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.
One of the captions in the article pictures mentioned that the glass nose would never pass crash tests!
Obviously, if the forward crumple zone includes the windshield, nasty bad things can happen.
Concept cars are just that : concepts. Don't expect to see this sucker on the showroom floor any time soon. A number of major design changes would have to be made in the name of usability and safety before the technology is ready for prime time.
-e
Rock!
The future of the automobile industry will probably be in modular components that are replaced when they break, rather than repaired - much like other newer incarnations of consumer goods like TV sets and VCRs.
So what happens when every trip to the shop turns into a 400$ bill for a new $MODULE, rather than a 30$ repair to an existing part?
I'm just thinking of what happens to insurance primarily - where the tons of tiny claims keep the big ones in check, or all the trips to the shop that are just paid out of pocket (like the 30$ fixes I mentioned earlier).
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Can nobody read the frigging article these days?
Several others have pointed out, as I will also do here, that the controls on the steering wheel are a 'proof-of-concept.' The designers did it just to show it could be done.
They also take pains to point out in the article that the accelerator and brake could easily be pedals. Hell, you could put them in a tongue-activated joystick if you wanted to.
And yes, some people do have problems with their feet. Cars can already be equipped with hand controls for people with foot/leg/spine injuries.
So can you just turn the wheels 90 degrees and drive sideways into the parking spot? Sweet! This will sell in San Francisco.
Maybe the hotrod community will offer aftermarket mods that will give us a flying car finally, 'Step 13: plumb the lines from the LOX tank to the combustion chamber after plumbing the Liquid hydrogen lines. Step 14: turbo pump throttle cables . . . '
Read the article. They clearly said the hand controls were just to demonstrate how flexible the system is. They could easily use any other input system, such as the familiar wheel & pedals, a joystick (which I would prefer), or something else entirely. The hand brakes were just a concept...
Wouldn't that make their name expand to "Federal Express Express"? Is that like KFC chicken?
No, it wouldn't. Everyone knows Kentucky Fried Chicken changed their name to KFC because it's not really chicken anymore!
I see some interesting specs on the fuel cell's power output and voltage, but I see nothing about how far it will travel on a tankful of Hydrogen.
Has anyone found any details on this. I couln't find any info on their site.
The steering, braking, acceleration, hell just about everything is electronically controlled. I'm no electrician, but wouldn't that kind of spell doom for you if there was an electronic failure?
Also, to echo what many others have said, braking/acceleration on the *steering wheel* is utterly ludicrous. They're very much suited to foot pedals.
Finally, is the hydrogen car the one which only outputs CO2, and no other emissions? I thought I heard that somewhere. Interesting that GM don't seem to give a shit about the emissions (that really is a big reason why new techs are being developed, isn't it?), as they don't mention it on their site.
== Jez ==
Do you miss Firefox? Try Pale Moon.
Use the thumbs, Luke!
When can I get one with the HAL 9000 operating system.
First, they ask you which side you want to drive from--the controls slide easily to either side.
:P
Wow, you'll be able to switch drivers without even stopping! This'll be great if you don't have a drivers license and your passenger does, and you get stopped by the cops
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
The space-savings inside the car itself are remarkable, and allow for all sorts of kooky things, such as a floor-to-ceiling windshield. (how weird would that be on the highway?)
"Weird" isn't the word. If I've got to scratch a random itch or make an, er, "adjustment" while I'm on the road, I could do without all my fellow commuters watching.
On the other hand, it might give a little cleanliness nudge to those who tend to let a thick mulch accumulate on the floor. Double-edged sword.
That rollover was faked for Dateline NBC( By Stone Phillips I believe). The Flintstones car was really quite stable, and generally can handle any size Brontosaurus ribs you can find. Damn liberal stone age media.....
No more reading of car news till I can have mine.
And Yes I dig Seloreans 8)
It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
Saddam has the gasoline fields.
Saudi Arabia has the diesel fields.
Kuwait has the naptha fields.
Venezuala has the natural gas fields.
How silly of us all.
W, by the way, made his money from baseball. Dumbass.
While we are busy proving you to be a complete idiot. Yes there may be other hideous regimes on the planet, few are proven to have used as many horrible weapons on innocent civilians during peacetime as good old Saddam.
Stop saddam now.
lives in The White House
http://www.engr.wisc.edu/alumni/perspective/29.1/
The cool thing is the process seems to be green-house nuetral.
no automatic tranny on bikes since the "Hondamatic"
Ridley makes automatic motorcycles. I really don't know much about them beyond that. (Automatic cruisers?? Double blah.)
The nerve center of Hy-wire?s electrical system is a single docking port or connection, which provides the electrical connection between the all-aluminum chassis and the fiberglass body. Because it uses fully electronic linkages and controls, the by-wire system simply plugs into the docking connection on the Hy-wire chassis.
/.er who ever said, "If we built cars like computers, no one would tolerate the the crashes." -- Your wish has come true.
To any
Ever had the power windows bust on your car while the window is down? Imagine what fun you'll have when the by-wire system, shorts, gets cut or comes loose. Weee!
______________________
...you have these drop-in replacement fuel cells that run on hydrocarbons(oil-based. Usually methane)... Both hydrocarbon and H2 fuel cells are available. Hydrocarbon fuel cells haven't taken off because, yes, Big Oil has a lot of control over a lot of America.
I see the skinnable car concept to be what will make this fly. There ought to be a good enough demand for it to warrent a production model, sometime in the next few years, presuming fuel cell tech improves. What they need is something that'll robustly run on gasoline. Make a set of ANSI standards for cell dimensions and shape, and you'll eventually be able to replace your old, outdated fuel cell with one that delivers more power, more efficiency, or both.
As long as hydrogen cells are built to the standards, and hydrogen is available in major cities, its use will slowly increase.
What's this Submit thingy do?
Switching to a Hydrogen based economy is something that will happen eventualy but the benefits gained from it will be primarily psycological rather than practical
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
DRIVING HY-WIRE is almost as disorienting an experience as it would be to be asked to design it.
Too bad they didn't have Hammer(TM) to help designing, you can really fine mold metal with this thing!The software is remarkably well tuned, though. Perhaps too much so.
Hammer(TM) comes again to the rescue! With my amazing refinement skills and Hammer(TM)'s unique denting quality, we can un-tune the heck out of this software."THE STONE AGE DIDN'T end because we ran out of stones."
No, it most probably ended because the amazing Hammer(TM) was invented.The point of Hy-wire is to begin exploring the ways in which cars might become more appealing.
Equipped with my Hammer(TM) we can make the most gastly cars more appealing through dent-in-your-hood technology!Who is Network Tech Man?
the above is a re-direct to goat sex...NSFW
What the hell are you talking about? The only reason there is a strong biotech industry is because of the government. Government grants from the NSF and NIH fund enormous amounts of fundamental research. The applied research in corporations would never be where it is now if it hadn't been for government research paving the way. The corporations would probably have never developed some of the underlying ultra-high risk science.
Pass me some of whatever you are smoking.
"Things to watch out for on your way home from work tonight, a stalled car in the right hand lane of highway 2. There's also a fender bender downtown near 58th street. Road crews are busy repairing ... "
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
Care to supply a link to where you read those torque numbers? I'm curious, since they seem very wrong to me.
Subaru WRX: 217 ft-lbs at 4000rpm.
And for vtec hondas:
Acura RSX type-s: 142 ft-lbs at 6000rpm. (weak)
S2000: 153 ft-lbs at 7500rpm. (yeesh)
I just felt the need to point out these numbers since you mentioned some cars which I've looked into, and also ones that are particularly known for poor low-end torque.
Oh, and no cars make their peak HP at redline. It's always a few hundred to 1000 rpms before redline.
For those of us who haven't figured this out yet.
Obviously, hydrogen is not an energy source when used in a fuel cell. That is not its purpose. Its purpose is to be a replacement for gasoline. Gasoline is not an energy source in the same way hydrogen isn't. Gasoline is millions of years of stored solar energy.
It took millions of years to create the raw materials we use to make gasoline. Once we run out (and we will run out - we are taking it out faster than nature puts it back - it's just a question of when) we will have to either make more gas ourselves or split water to make hydrogen. There's no special difficulty hydrogen presents in this regard - anything we use to run cars is going to be in the end an energy storage device, unless we have nuclear/solar powered cars. Both are impractical, for different reasons. So we have two problems in the future - generate power to replace the huge stored supplys we current are tapping, and store it for use in automobiles.
People seem to assume hydrogen is being proposed as a power generator. FALSE. Hydrogen is being proposed as a way to store energy for use in cars, which can't generate power on site in most cases. Gas is stored power - so is hydrogen when used in a fuel cell. We can't practically create gasoline ourselves - it's much easier to split water and recover the hydrogen. Plus fuel cells are extremely clean and don't give us the byproducts gasoline does. An extra benefit.
That leaves the question of where to get the power to drive this system. That's a completely separate problem, and one of the most crucial. Solar and wind are the two major untapped as far as non-nuclear power goes. Nuclear isn't practical in the us IN ITS CURRENT FORM. Fusion power is under development, and if a power producing fusion plant can ever be created, that will provide lots of power with byproducts that decay in hundreds of years, not tens of thousands. That may be managable. Otherwise, we will have to adjust ourselves to run on only what power we can recover from solar and wind.
It's never popular to say it politically, but we can in fact do a great deal to lower our power consumption. Better consumer habits, more efficient homes and utilities, smaller cars, etc. etc. etc. If we can't solve fusion, the cost of power will force this change to take place. It's not an argument of "we shouldn't develop renewables and hydrogen because they can't deliever our current level of power." Sorry folks, it doesn't work like that. Our current level of power generation is unsustainable unless we shift almost totally to nuclear power. Peroid. We don't know exactly how long it will last, but it WILL come to an end. What is up to us is how we cope with it. I'd rather be prepared with the best we can do in alternatives. Hydrogen might allow us to run cars after we can no longer produce gasoline cheaply. Plus it's a cleaner system when the source power is produced from clean sources. It doesn't provide gluttonous power, true, but it might allow us to sustain the worthwhile parts of our lifestyle. That's why this is a development to be cheered on.
"I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
If States want Federal road money there is a national speed limit they must make their state speed limit conform to, as I understand it.
The only thing that I don't like is the steering wheel design. I am a casual driver that likes to "rest" 1 hand on top of the steering wheel when driving on the interstate, as do a lot of drivers, pretty much impossible with this one.
They would also need to cover up the lower portion of the car, for those midnight runs in your shorts.
What is frightening is there is no direct connection between the wheels and the driver. If there is a computer malfunction from prehaps a cop or lightening strike, do you lose steering and braking? I don't mind a drive by wire throttle, but give me a mechanical way to turn and stop the damn thing.
Also, how does that "you are going to fast to turn the radius" feature work on ice? when two wheels are on ice? When they are on ice but you can see that they will not be by the time you need the traction? When the driver deceides it is better to go sideways into a snowbank than oncoming traffic? There is occasionally some intellegence needed to drive that AI is not up to yet, situations engineers haven't designed for, especially for squids like me. I drive a manual, rwd, no abs in northern MN.
This issue probably has roots in the minds of the designers, who live in Detroit where horn is very rarely used, so they just missed the favorite driving gadget of New York and Boston :-)
...isn't good at economics, anyway. One of the things that contributed the the Great Depression of the 30s was market saturation. Newly mass-produced durable appliances like washing machines and dryers were selling like hotcakes, so they kept stepping up production. Finally, they were stuck with this huge amount of stock, and the market was saturated.
The auto industry turned around and did the same thing last year. 0% financing kept their sales running, sure, but it sure saturated the market. Now dealers have to depend on payments, because cars aren't selling. Ford, etc. is up the creek because dealers aren't buying cars.
On the bright side, there'll be a lot of 2002 model vehicles to be found in good condition on the used car market.
Considering how much like an engine a fuel cell is, I suspect there'll be at least enough standardization to be able to swap models.
Even if it isn't a sound business decision in the long-term, one company putting out swappable fuel cells will get a disproportionate amount of business. People who like to mod their cars will want one. People who like being able to choose between high-power and high-milage will want one. Other companies will have to follow suit. That's why you have organizations like OPEC--to prevent someone from upsetting the norm.
Besides, among US-based competitors, there's what, Daimler-Chrysler, Ford, and GM? (not sure what the Japenese big-shots are.) They own a bunch of different sub-brands, which generally use simaler parts.
What's this Submit thingy do?
My mother-in-law doesn't drive but she has a hand brake on the dash of any car in which she rides. It's not very effective but effectiveness improves if she makes a screeching sound, not unlike the sound of squealing brakes.
-- Heisenberg might have slept here.
Or not.
http://www.snopes.com/horrors/food/kfc.htm
Go into a KFC, or watch a commercial, and it will be called "chicken" all the time.
It wasn't the hydrogen in the Hindenburg that caused the fire anyway, it was the paint on the outside skin! It was based on rocket fuel!!
Aluminum based paint was used to seal the outside skin, solid rocket fuel is based on aluminum compounds.
An excelent proof is the COLOR of the fire, Hydrogren burns colorless and smokeless.
In the old Hindenburg footage, (in Black and white, mind you) there is a serious amount of flame and smoke, pure H2 doesn't burn or explode like that!
This is more like a shuttle launch, lots of smoke and bright flame.
As a longtime bicyclist and current motorcyclist, let me say shut up about THE F\/[$\| STEERING WHEEL already. First, it's a concept. It's not actually going to hit the showrooms. Second, it's reconfigurable. You can brake with your sphincter for all I care.
Third and most important, _who_says_a_wheel_is_ natural? Squeeze brakes and tilt steering have been on bikes since BEFORE CARS EXISTED. If you're too lazy to pick up another UI (and I suppose driver's ed was the torture of the damned?), that doesn't mean the platform's invalid or unworthy. In fact, safety experts would rip out the wheel in a heartbeat if a marketable substitute existed; fewer people would die of chest injuries.
I already use fuel cells. Bicycles are powered by mitochondria.
That's what I want.
Only real solution to fuel problems http://www.phoenixproject.net
Sit in an Impala, Taurus, Camry and what do you see? They have these big honking "A-pillars" on each side of the windshield connecting the frame to the roof. The roof is structurally connected to the frame, which gives those cars such good Insurance Institute for Highway Safety crash test ratings -- the high stiffness also helps with handling (did the reviewer say that the Hy-Wire didn't handle worth anything, that it plowed straight ahead at any speed over 35 MPH?).
GM brags that the Hy-Wire has this dinky 1-foot crush zone on the front of the "skateboard." Go to the IIHS web site and look at their crunched cars -- for the cars rated "Good", the whole freakin front end of the car is a crush zone, and the whole passenger compartment from frame through A-pillars to roof is a safety cage that resists entry of stuff from the crush zone. This skateboard car with "skinnable" superstructure is an engineering joke because yes, people crash into things and you want them to be able to "take the hit."
Besides the safety concern, I would guess that it doesn't handle very well, borne out by the review. There is a reason why cars are build the way they are.
Couple of years ago it looked like GM had made a breaktrough with their electric car, the EV-1.
It looked good, it ran on roads, and it had decent range. And most important of all, people that owned it loved it.
The car is now discontinued and GM wanted to (and probably did) retrieve all the cars it had leased to the public and destroyed them.
Some people that leased the car liked it so much they kept sending unsolicited checks to GM hoping that their car wont get taken away.
Now there are no mor eEV1s on the road (as far as i know) and the new electric vehicles getting sold are some ridiculous looking golf cart like thingies, that would be dangerous to drive on the road.
And people are saying that maybe GM discontinued the electric car because they did not want to have a succesful 0 emission vehicle.
It does seem very suspicious. The car did not seem to have any major problems. Even if it did have some minor ones, it certainly warranted further development. There was nothing in this car that said "this car is an utter failure. we must recall all cars on the road and stop any kind of RD in this area".
Now GM is showing off hydrogen technology, which is of course many years away. So i as i said it seems suspicious.
If you ask why would GM surrender their obvious advantage in that field. Well it just so happens california was about to enforce some pretty tough emisions requirements, which are now contested by the autoindustry on the ground that they are way too difficult to implement.
A succesful electric car would have been bad for that argument.
Other things that make me suspicious are features like that removable wheel, which are largely pointless, and yet so bizarre that they basicly communicate that this is a car that will not be in production any time soon.
Riiiiight.
As noted above, Honda have had both the Insight and Civic on sale for quite a while. There's a good review of the hybrid Civic on arstechnica.
How can you review a concept as a product?
Firstly, I must state that I trust neither the government nor big corporations, because they are both extremes on opposite sides. The government does concern itself with people's welfare and safety, and will spend money on that, but it often doesn't have the intelligence to use it efficiently and properly. Big corporations are very, very good at that, but if drowning children in the sea were legal and profitable, they'd find the most efficient means to do that. They do bring about progress, but without government, there would be little protection from its selfishness and greed. The government's purpose is to protect people from that. If there were no big corporations, we'd still be stuck in the Middle Ages where there wasn't even running water. They are both necessary evils for Western society.
Now that makes me wonder, what about all those tribal societies around the world? I would dare say that most of the people in them are living more luxurious lifestyles than most of us. Very few of them ever actually have to worry about food, because they know their environment so well. Mostly, they just have to worry about the family and friends they have around them. The biggest worry that most of them would have is the encroachment of Western society and culture, which has a tendancy to destroy the environment they depend on so much, which may, in turn, destroy them. They don't have governments, and they don't have big corporations.
// file: mice.h
#include "frickin_lasers.h"
Everybody seems to assume that the designers moved the controls to the steering wheel just to be different. Driver safety is a big reason to do away with the traditional pedals/steering wheel concept. By disconnecting the controls from a steering column, and removing the pedals, you prevent those controls from being thrust at your chest and legs at high speed in a crash. Saab went further with a joystick controlled 9000 in 1992, and Citroen recently created a new concept with similar steering-wheel mounted controls.
Fyi all steering systems on (I belive) all cars have a direct metal-on-metal conncetion between steering wheel and front wheels. This can't fail unles some big chunk of steel breaks, and that's why steering failure is the last thing you have to worry about while driving today. Yes, power steering can fail in the sense that you lose the power assistance, but you can still turn if you force the wheel.
Another thing that puzzles me, they claim it gets rid of steering & brake fluids to be more enviro-friendly. But then they say it still uses conventional (Brembo) calipers. I'll be damned...
Apparently this is a much bigger problem in sunnier climes (California, Australia) than it is in Europe, hence California is currently working on a new set of emission restrictions specifically to tackle these pollutants from diesels. It's apparently going to be very difficult for diesels (trucks, not only cars) to meet them.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Someone doesn't understand sarcasm...
I love the idea of being able to load custom driving "skins" for different driving situations. One for driving the kids to school, another boring one for slogging to work, and some fun ones for lonely open roads,...
No, I want that now. Someone please put this in some PS2 game. I want to learn to drive hy-wire now.
Watch out for the Unions to keep this from ever seeing the light of day. You know the sort of fellas that make $120,000/yr and shut down the entire West Coast distribution of goods with a strike because they refuse to allow bar codes on containers that would make their jobs obsolete. Well, the democr.. er maf.. er AFL/CIO/UAW are declining in numbers and power. If cars like this become accepted, that is a killing blow to organized labor. Building these vehicles won't require a $50/hour high school drop out (with a Collective Bargaining Agreement/Union Contract guaranteeing a weeks pay for an hours work) to produce. Apart from putting on the tires and washing the windshields, these vehicles will be mass produced Hi-Tech. And an additional side effect will be no more "Joe's Auto body", "Manny's Muffler Repair", "Biff's Transmission" or "Jack's Oil change and Radiator".
Man would I love to see that day. But until then, I guess I have to keep paying $250.00 for knuter valve realignment every time I go for an oil change.
GM has gone on the record saying that, because of the elimination of most of the moving parts, these cars could realistically last 20 years. Which is a big concern for GM, obviously having a 20-year-turnover on cars is going to nail their bottom line... until you figure in the savings on engine parts, assembly lines for those engine parts, etc.
The very first GSM mobile phone that came out would work well today. It doesn't stop people from changing their phone every year for the latest 'trendy' mobile. Once the prices, as you say, drop significantly then it opens up a whole new market for designer cars that people can change on a far more regular basis.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
It is radical. Honda just put hybrid engines in standard car chassis. GM's car is a complete departure from standard thinking on how a car is built.
Why? Just because it has been this way for 100 years doesn't mean it is correct.
You're right in meaning, but not in fact. I got a tour of a WWI Model T recently. The girl who could drive it said it really was an acquired talent. The pedal layout and functionality (including pedal gear selection) is absolutely nothing like what we have in cars today.
You could even go from forward to reverse or back with one press of the pedal, explaining all those 1920s cars backing up and going forward so quickly.
Since they are planning to make the entire line of cars off of a couple base skateboard platforms, they'll get a HUGE economy of scale.
I know many cars today are built on the same platform, but it's with many modifications to the base. This technology will allow them to produce thousands of exactly the same chassis to cover several lines of cars.
I've heard some bad things. The unsprung weight at the wheels is very important to the handling of a car, and if this thing integrates electric motors into the wheels, it's going to handle like a pig.
Energy storage is the issue with electric vehicles, chemical storage like petroleum and methanol which can be reformed into CO2 and hydrogen for use in a fuel cell are the best methods found so far, but the problem with these is the manufacture from oil or highly intensive farming and the greenhouse gases which are produced as byproducts.
/ o mp /methanol.html
Now, using these technologies,
http://www.astronomynow.com/breaking/990326mars
http://www.ucc.ie/ucc/depts/chem/dolchem/html/c
It may be possible to make methanol fuel for a fuel cell out of thin air. Use solar energy to provide the power required to drive the reaction.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
BMW has takes a different approach and their option is of higher performance.
. ht m
http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_38/b3699304
"Fighting terrorists with millitary might is like killing a mosquitor on your Dad's forehead with a rifle."
It is hard to say what will happen, fuel cells have been the promise for years and years. This GM venture appears promising but who knows what will happen even 5 or 10 years down the road.
I love my gasoline powered car, it's reliable and fairly inexpensive to operate and maintain. However, I do definately see the advantages of hydrogen over gasoline if the technology is made as affordable as gasoline. The good effects of a cleaner environment will the clincher in the deal for most people once prices of both types of vehicles are roughly the same. Hydrogen is definately the future and GM and many other auto manufacturers see that.
Now I don't necessarily think the gasoline engine is going to completely go away, but I think over time it will be relegated to very specific jobs and for car enthusiast. There's nothing wrong with that, but I think that days of the internal combustion engine have more days behind it than it does ahead of it.
Renault 19 chamade 1400cc - 80hp - 120mph
Vauxhall nova 1200cc - 45hp - 105mph
Ford fiesta 900cc - 30hp - 80mph
(my car) Opel Manta 2000cc injection, 110hp - 125-130mph
These are all cars owned by mates of mine. How come in the uk you can buy a car with a 2 litre lump rated at about 100hp, and be cruising at over 100mph, yet in the states 100hp seems pretty small?????
Keep pumping out those emissions! Remember, who wants to save the world when you can own an SUV, what do you mean i dont need a 300hp engine????
hmm
OK, there has beena lot of comparison to motorcycle controls here with regards to the gas and brake being on the steering wheel. This same design idea does NOT work with a steering wheel!! The reason it works on a motorcycle is because your hands to not (often) move from their positions. You're holding onto handlebars, there's nowhere for your hands to go (except occasionally onto your knee when you're cruising and want to look cool). If you're holding a wheel, unless you're Miss Daisy, your hands could be anywhere on the wheel. Yes, some people drive at 10 and 2. I was taught to keep my hands at 9 and 3. OThers do different things. None of these are condusive to hand controls.
Just my 2 cents. Refute at will.
A main point here that many people seem to be ignoring is the fact that this thing uses and ALTERNATE FUEL SOURCE. This can revolutionize the global economy provided it becomes more cost-efficient. True, gas-electric hybrids have been around for a little while now, but Hydrogen fuel is eco-friendly. Who cares about the aesthetics? Those can be changed. So you're not confortable with brakes and acceleration on the steering column, tough. The concept of an alternate fuel source entering the mass market is enough to make me support this project, despite minor flaws
Since the vehicle is controlled exclusively by electronic signals, you'll be able to mount a video camera and hire a remote driver somewhere in Southeast Asia.
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!