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NASA engineers expect to receive paychecks. They're funny that way. Hobbyists working in their spare time don't get paid.

Assume an engineering makes $50k/year (rather low actually). That comes out to $25/hour ignoring benefits. Spending a mere 16 hours (two days, not much) planning, getting approval, building, executing, and reporting the results the project's direct labor comes to $400. Add benefits, overhead for office space, tools, transportation, and you're looking at something like $1,000 + parts. If it's done by a private contractor add 5-10% to the top in profit.

With just a few minutes you don't have to assume a $50K salary. Look at the current General Schedule (GS) wage and salary rates (you can even get a spreadsheet with the exact hourly rates). A non-supervisory NASA engineer's grade would be between 6 and 11, depending on education and experience (based on position postings at USAjobs.gov). Using the non-locality adjusted rate for a very junior engineer (grade 6, step 1) a hour's work would have a labor cost of $14.65. I'm not sure how much work this took using your estimate of 16 hours, the total labor cost of $234.40. Of course, they could use technicians which, if civil servants, might be grades 4 or 5 ($10.46/hr and $11.75/hr respectively for step 1s) and reduce the cost further. Locality pay would increase this for all cases, but only by additional 35.15% at most(in San Jose, San Francisco, and Oakland, CA if you are wondering, and the DC area is only 24.22%), which would be $316.79.

I did the calculations for some lower cost scenarios, I'll leave the other possibilities as an exercise for the reader. I'm also not including benefits because the FEHB program offers a fairly wide range of packages with different costs, but I doubt it would be as high as your estimate either.

It comes up every time some college kid or hobbyist makes a cool project on a budget $xxx. The headlines always include the $xxx. And invariably the $xxx excludes the the labor and overhead which is usually the most expensive part in the real world. Sure large government organizations tend to be inefficient, but it's not a fair comparison.

Agreed, but when you actually run the numbers even your estimate was a little high. Yet in any case, far too many people hugely overestimate the labor costs for rank-and-file civil servants. This is especially true when you consider how readily available complete information about the Federal pay scales has become in the last 20 or so years.

NASA engineers expect to receive paychecks. They're funny that way. Hobbyists working in their spare time don't get paid.

Assume an engineering makes $50k/year (rather low actually). That comes out to $25/hour ignoring benefits. Spending a mere 16 hours (two days, not much) planning, getting approval, building, executing, and reporting the results the project's direct labor comes to $400. Add benefits, overhead for office space, tools, transportation, and you're looking at something like $1,000 + parts. If it's done by a private contractor add 5-10% to the top in profit.

With just a few minutes you don't have to assume a $50K salary. Look at the current General Schedule (GS) wage and salary rates (you can even get a spreadsheet with the exact hourly rates). A non-supervisory NASA engineer's grade would be between 6 and 11, depending on education and experience (based on position postings at USAjobs.gov). Using the non-locality adjusted rate for a very junior engineer (grade 6, step 1) a hour's work would have a labor cost of $14.65. I'm not sure how much work this took using your estimate of 16 hours, the total labor cost of $234.40. Of course, they could use technicians which, if civil servants, might be grades 4 or 5 ($10.46/hr and $11.75/hr respectively for step 1s) and reduce the cost further. Locality pay would increase this for all cases, but only by additional 35.15% at most(in San Jose, San Francisco, and Oakland, CA if you are wondering, and the DC area is only 24.22%), which would be $316.79.

I did the calculations for some lower cost scenarios, I'll leave the other possibilities as an exercise for the reader. I'm also not including benefits because the FEHB program offers a fairly wide range of packages with different costs, but I doubt it would be as high as your estimate either.

It comes up every time some college kid or hobbyist makes a cool project on a budget $xxx. The headlines always include the $xxx. And invariably the $xxx excludes the the labor and overhead which is usually the most expensive part in the real world. Sure large government organizations tend to be inefficient, but it's not a fair comparison.

Agreed, but when you actually run the numbers even your estimate was a little high. Yet in any case, far too many people hugely overestimate the labor costs for rank-and-file civil servants. This is especially true when you consider how readily available complete information about the Federal pay scales has become in the last 20 or so years.

NASA engineers expect to receive paychecks. They're funny that way. Hobbyists working in their spare time don't get paid.

Assume an engineering makes $50k/year (rather low actually). That comes out to $25/hour ignoring benefits. Spending a mere 16 hours (two days, not much) planning, getting approval, building, executing, and reporting the results the project's direct labor comes to $400. Add benefits, overhead for office space, tools, transportation, and you're looking at something like $1,000 + parts. If it's done by a private contractor add 5-10% to the top in profit.

With just a few minutes you don't have to assume a $50K salary. Look at the current General Schedule (GS) wage and salary rates (you can even get a spreadsheet with the exact hourly rates). A non-supervisory NASA engineer's grade would be between 6 and 11, depending on education and experience (based on position postings at USAjobs.gov). Using the non-locality adjusted rate for a very junior engineer (grade 6, step 1) a hour's work would have a labor cost of $14.65. I'm not sure how much work this took using your estimate of 16 hours, the total labor cost of $234.40. Of course, they could use technicians which, if civil servants, might be grades 4 or 5 ($10.46/hr and $11.75/hr respectively for step 1s) and reduce the cost further. Locality pay would increase this for all cases, but only by additional 35.15% at most(in San Jose, San Francisco, and Oakland, CA if you are wondering, and the DC area is only 24.22%), which would be $316.79.

I did the calculations for some lower cost scenarios, I'll leave the other possibilities as an exercise for the reader. I'm also not including benefits because the FEHB program offers a fairly wide range of packages with different costs, but I doubt it would be as high as your estimate either.

It comes up every time some college kid or hobbyist makes a cool project on a budget $xxx. The headlines always include the $xxx. And invariably the $xxx excludes the the labor and overhead which is usually the most expensive part in the real world. Sure large government organizations tend to be inefficient, but it's not a fair comparison.

Agreed, but when you actually run the numbers even your estimate was a little high. Yet in any case, far too many people hugely overestimate the labor costs for rank-and-file civil servants. This is especially true when you consider how readily available complete information about the Federal pay scales has become in the last 20 or so years.

You can find all the information included in a government background check here: http://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf86.pdf Sexual preference is not included. Identifying information like Male/Female is. There is a mental health section.

These employees had gone through a background check (NAC) when they were first hired. They have no access to classified information, nor do they have access to locations where classified projects may be developed. The requirement extends to the cafeteria workers and the groundskeepers. The plaintiffs are employees of Caltech and are not civil servants.

The investigations (and re-investigations every 5 years) would require the employees do "voluntarily" sign a waiver (http://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf85.pdf) that would authorize any investigator to "obtain any information" from a long list of enumerated and "other" sources, and would authorize any custodians of such information to release it on request, "regardless of any previous agreement to the contrary".

The investigators then send questionnaires (http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2005/pdf/05-21051.pdf) to neighbors, former employers, and references asking, in an open-ended manner, for any derogatory information.

After the investigators are done, a NASA official "adjudicates" the applicant based on criteria that include "carnal knowledge", "attitude", "sodomy", and, sometimes, "adultery" and "cohabitation". The criteria had been posted on a NASA website, (http://nasapeople.nasa.gov/references/SuitabilitySecurityDeskGuide.pdf ), now replaced with an empty page. The plaintiffs have posted a copy at (http://hspd12jpl.org/files/SuitabilitySecurityDeskGuide.pdf , see page 65 of the pdf). In their latest court filing (http://www.justice.gov/osg/briefs/2009/2pet/7pet/2009-0530.pet.rep.pdf) the Solicitor General denies that NASA uses this.

A lot more on this is at the plaintiff's website, http://hspd12jpl.org/.

He's already proved he can create government jobs. The federal government is now larger than it ever has in history.

[citation needed]

Are you aware that there were more federal government employees in the 1980s under Reagan than there are today?

Are you aware that there were more government employees in the 70s under Nixon, Ford, and Carter than there are today?

Go take your horseshit somewhere else.

Sources: Article on Bush increasing the federal employment rolls, just to point out your misplaced ire.
  All fed employees, 1962 to 2008 Here you go. What's that? Federal employment peaked at the end of Reagan's term and decreased under Clinton, only to increase again slighlty under Bush? How can that be, in your misinformed little world?

  An article pointing out the increase in federal employees due to Obama's stimulus packages as of last September. It was newsworthy that 25k federal employees were added from Dec 08 to Aug 09. FYI, more have been added since, with 33k added in Jan 2010 as an example. Still far under what we had in the 80s under Reagan.

Get a clue. Dig into the numbers before you make erroneous claims parroting your stupid right-wing ideological leaders.

Does your 'genius' level research include contractors to the US government? I'm not seeing Blackwater, Raytheon, and the likes showing up in your calculations....

He's already proved he can create government jobs. The federal government is now larger than it ever has in history.

[citation needed]

Are you aware that there were more federal government employees in the 1980s under Reagan than there are today?

Are you aware that there were more government employees in the 70s under Nixon, Ford, and Carter than there are today?

Go take your horseshit somewhere else.

Sources: Article on Bush increasing the federal employment rolls, just to point out your misplaced ire.
All fed employees, 1962 to 2008 Here you go. What's that? Federal employment peaked at the end of Reagan's term and decreased under Clinton, only to increase again slighlty under Bush? How can that be, in your misinformed little world?
An article pointing out the increase in federal employees due to Obama's stimulus packages as of last September. It was newsworthy that 25k federal employees were added from Dec 08 to Aug 09. FYI, more have been added since, with 33k added in Jan 2010 as an example. Still far under what we had in the 80s under Reagan.

Get a clue. Dig into the numbers before you make erroneous claims parroting your stupid right-wing ideological leaders.

https://www.sfs.opm.gov/

I went through this program. Got a FREE MS in CompSci in 3 semesters, interned at NIST for a summer and ended up working for NSF for a couple years. Started at NSF and a GS-9, was GS-12 within 2 years.

Get a job in the public sector, or academia.

They can go through their entire lives in a system that has at is philosophy 'as long as you feel like you're doing good... that is all that counts... and you deserve lots of money for it too'.

Emphasis mine and the embolded part is completely wrong, at least for the rake and file in any part of the Executive Branch of the US Federal Government. I've spent some time working with a Federal Agency a few years ago as an engineer, for professional jobs (GS 7 or higher) you tend to get paid as little as 2/3rds the average pay in the private sector, for an equivalent position with similar experience. The health and retirement benefits do raise the total compensation costs per employee, but not by that much! Now the equivalent to most senior management and executive positions in the Federal Government are either on the SES or some other pay scale and doesn't necessarily follow the same trend, but they are still often less than what you would find in any medium to large corporation.

Now, I suppose some posters here are against almost any government job beyond law enforcement and the military (if that), so any amount would be too much for them. However, for most white-collar workers you will most likely take an appreciable pay cut moving from the private sector to the Federal Government. For a concrete example, the national mean annual salary for an engineering manager is $120,580. However, such a job in the Federal Government would normally be at GS 11 or 12, and with the highest locality pay increase to the base rate (an additional 2.42%) the last step of GS 12 is only $97,333!

Get a job in the public sector, or academia.

They can go through their entire lives in a system that has at is philosophy 'as long as you feel like you're doing good... that is all that counts... and you deserve lots of money for it too'.

Emphasis mine and the embolded part is completely wrong, at least for the rake and file in any part of the Executive Branch of the US Federal Government. I've spent some time working with a Federal Agency a few years ago as an engineer, for professional jobs (GS 7 or higher) you tend to get paid as little as 2/3rds the average pay in the private sector, for an equivalent position with similar experience. The health and retirement benefits do raise the total compensation costs per employee, but not by that much! Now the equivalent to most senior management and executive positions in the Federal Government are either on the SES or some other pay scale and doesn't necessarily follow the same trend, but they are still often less than what you would find in any medium to large corporation.

Now, I suppose some posters here are against almost any government job beyond law enforcement and the military (if that), so any amount would be too much for them. However, for most white-collar workers you will most likely take an appreciable pay cut moving from the private sector to the Federal Government. For a concrete example, the national mean annual salary for an engineering manager is $120,580. However, such a job in the Federal Government would normally be at GS 11 or 12, and with the highest locality pay increase to the base rate (an additional 2.42%) the last step of GS 12 is only $97,333!

In case anyone wants specifics, here is the "main" questionnaire you have to fill out if you're going to have any kind of security clearance (even a really low one) while working for the Gov.

http://www.opm.gov/Forms/pdf_fill/sf86.pdf

Also, note that lying on the SF86 is a felony. It's a terrifying, terrifying form.

The suitability matrix was developed by OPM many moons ago, to provide guidance to agencies on how to deal with the results of the investigations, as it is the agency and not OPM that determines if the results of an investigation are sufficient to warrant denial of employment, clearance, or now with HSPD-12, credentialing.

http://www.opm.gov/extra/investigate/

There used to be a link to the document, but it was empty, as it was under revision. Has been for at least 3 years.

The latest criteria are in a 31 July 2008 OPM memo:
"HSPD-12 Credentialing Standards:
The purpose of this section is to provide minimum standards for initial eligibility for a PIV card.
If an individual who otherwise meets these standards is found: 1) unsuitable for the competitive civil service under 5 CFR part 731,2) ineligible for access to classified information under E.O. 12968, or 3) disqualified from appointment in the excepted service or from working on a contract, the unfavorable decision is a sufficient basis for non-issuance or revocation of a PIV card."

Uh, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

According to This page, there are 10 federally recognized holidays, a few of which aren't recognized by many businesses that I know (Columbus Day). According to my old company's list of days off, here's what we got:
* new years
* (day before/day after) new years
* MLK day (floating holiday)
* President's (Washington's Bday)
* Memorial day
* Independence day
* Labor Day
* Veteran's day
* Thanksgiving
* day after thanksgiving
* Christmas
* (day before/day after) christmas.
or 12 days total.

Compared to about 8 or so UK bank holidays, which I would assume would be roughly equivlent to federal holidays.

In my non professional estimation, it still sounds like europe (in general) is getting a lot of days off.

try one of these programs. http://www.defenselink.mil/cio-nii/iasp/ https://www.sfs.opm.gov/ OR if you already have the skills then try any of the big defense contractors or even some of the small ones. For most of the jobs, you must have U.S. citizenship, the ability to obtain a clearance, and most importantly the ability to withstand hours of pointless meetings.

What you're really asking is why use H.264 at all? Obviously all the folks who use H.264 have looked at the alternatives you mention and rejected them. I dunno why, but it's not to keep their engineers from getting bored. There a more cost effective solution.

What we call health insurance in this country is actually a pre-paid health maintenance agreement. There is an insurance component, but by and large the costs are associated with routine care, not insured healt disasters. Right now, the closest thing we have is the high deductable health plans which work with a health savings account. In the HDHP, you pay every dollar of care out of pocket until you reach your deductable - about $2.5k for a single, or about 5-6k for a family. This excludes just about all routine care, which means that it doesn't kick in until you've hit a real stumbling block, healthwise. In return, the gov't lets you put away money, pre-tax, into an account (savings or investment) which you draw on to pay your health expenses.

Everyone on insurance already has a "single payer system," it's just that the "single payer" is the group of health insurance companies instead of the government, but they act and think with close to one voice. Right now we aren't covering everyone, though we could for about 1.2T/yr through the existing private system*. It would be a significant burden if the cost were borne by employers, as most businesses just can't foot the bill for $8-12k/yr/employee, especially when the coverage could cost more than the employee's salary.

Anyway, the point is that there may be two systems needed - one for health maintenance, and one for catastrophic coverage (which I like to call "hit-by-a-bus" coverage). As with all things, there are some gray lines at the boarder between the two. And this doesn't really address the DNA problem, though it would be reasonable to expect a test to get a rate for the catastrophic coverage, since that is a pretty straight forward way to more accurately determine risk, and no different than charging 22 year old males with sportscars more for auto insurance - even if the never drive more than 35 mph, and only take trips to church on Sundays. That's what probability and risk determination is about. If you don't like it, save your money yourself for that rainy day.

I will say that I would prefer cancellable "term" policies rather than the annual individual policies that are common today. Right now, if you're too expensive, you can simply not be renewed. With a term (say, 30 year) policy, you have a guarantee of coverage for your term with embedded annual escalation and whatnot, just like life insurance. You might even get a product similar to whole life insurance, which guarntees your coverage until you die. (Note: just like life insurance, health insurance has caps on your benefits).

As with all other things, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch, so the total money into the system = total money out of the system. There profit on gross in healthcare insurance is probably small, just like most businesses (2-8%). My point is that everyone can't just put in their $120/week, get routine healthcare (office visits, minor events, maintenance prescriptions, and some elective procedure) taken care of and then have a heart attack and run up a $280k tab, and expect the system to stay solvent. Healthcare is one area where manpower is necessary to get things done, and people who are competent and reliable cost a _lot_ of money to hire, train, and retain. Most people would be surprised to find that the job which pays them $25/hr requires billing them out at $75/hr to be worth while for the company (you know, that 2-8% profit margin). And hiring reliable people to work on the most basic parts of your health costs quite a bit more than $25/hr most places.

*extend the federal employee group for BCBS standard to count every citizen, paid at roughly 100M policies at 12,300/yr, per http://www.opm.gov/insure/health/08rates/2008non_postal_ffs.pdf

The USPS is a monopoly (you know, that which most people on /. hate about software companies?) on letter delivery, which they lose money on, BTW. Only through package delivery do they turn a "profit." Of course, unlike their competitors like FedEx who pay hundreds of millions, the USPS does not pay corporate income taxes, which is a huge hidden subsidy. Secondly, all 800,000 USPS employees have their health care under FEHB, under which the feds pay 72% of the premiums. That is in the billions of dollars per month of federal dollars.

Imagine if you will, FedEx paying no income tax and having the taxpayers paying for all of their employees healthcare. Think that would be a huge boost to FedEx's efficiency?

Um... no. Not only will Bush remain in the Oval Office until January 20, 2009, but FY 2009 extends from October 1, 2008 (which is even before the general elections) to September 30, 2009. (ref)

http://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/SF86.pdf

This is most likely the form you had to fill out. Good old SF86, striking fear in the hearts of good-folks-who-did-stupid-things-in-college since, well, some time ago!

Decide for yourself what this is all about. The intent of the process becomes clearer when you read the form in question.

http://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/SF85.pdf

INSTRUCTIONS
--------

Purpose of this Form
The U.S. Government conducts background investigations to establish
that applicants or incumbents either employed by the Government or
working for the Government under contract, are suitable for the job.
Information from this form is used primarily as the basis for this
investigation. Complete this form only after a conditional offer of
employment has been made.
Giving us the information we ask for is voluntary. However, we may
not be able to complete your investigation, or complete it in a timely
manner, if you dont give us each item of information we request. This
may affect your placement or employment prospects.

Authority to Request this Information
The U.S. Government is authorized to ask for this information under
Executive Order 10577, sections 3301 and 3302 of title 5, U.S. Code;
and parts 5, 731, and 736 of Title 5, Code of Federal Regulations.
Your Social Security Number is needed to keep records accurate,
because other people may have the same name and birth date. Executive
Order 9397 also asks Federal agencies to use this number to help
identify individuals in agency records.

The Investigative Process
Background investigations are conducted using your responses on this
form and on your Declaration for Federal Employment (OF 306) to
develop information to show whether you are reliable, trustworthy, and
of good conduct and character. Your current employer must be
contacted as part of the investigation, even if you have previously
indicated on applications or other forms that you do not want this.

Instructions for Completing this Form
1. Follow the instructions given to you by the person who gave you the
form and any other clarifying instructions furnished by that person to
assist you in completion of the form. Find out how many copies of the
form you are to turn in. You must sign and date, in black ink, the
original and each copy you submit.

2. Type or legibly print your answers in black ink (if your form is not
legible, it will not be accepted). You may also be asked to submit your
form in an approved electronic format.
3. All questions on this form must be answered. If no response is
necessary or applicable, indicate this on the form (for example, enter
"None" or "N/A"). If you find that you cannot report an exact date,
approximate or estimate the date to the best of your ability and indicate
this by marking "APPROX." or "EST."
4. Any changes that you make to this form after you sign it must be
initialed and dated by you. Under certain limited circumstances,
agencies may modify the form consistent with your intent.
5. You must use the State codes (abbreviations) listed on the back of
this page when you fill out this form. Do not abbreviate the names of
cities or foreign countries.
6. The 5-digit postal ZIP codes are needed to speed the processing of
your investigation. The office that provided the form will assist you in
completing the ZIP codes.
7. All telephone numbers must include area codes.
8. All dates provided on this form must be in Month/Day/Year or
Month/Year format. Use numbers (1-12) to indicate months. For
example, June 10, 1978, should be shown as 6/10/78.
9. Whenever "City (Country)" is shown in an address block, also
provide in that block the name of the country when the address is
outside the United States.
10. If you need additional space to list your residences or
employments/self-employments/unemployment or education, you
should use a continuation sheet, SF 86A. If additional space is needed
to answer other items, use a blank piece of paper. Each blank piece of
paper you use must contain your name and Social Secu

And yet Columbus Day is still a federal holiday.

30.
a) Have you ever been an officer or a member or made a contribution to an organization dedicated to the violent overthrow of the United States Government and which engages in illegal activities to that end, knowing that the organization engages in such activities with the specific intent to further such activities?

b) Have you ever knowingly engaged in any acts or activities designed to overthrow the United States Government by force?

Take note that you need 1,000 hours flight time in a jet air craft. Good luck with that if you weren't in the military or fly commercially.

http://jobsearch.usajobs.opm.gov/getjob.asp?JobID=62398554&AVSDM=2007-09-18+00%3A00%3A04&Logo=0&sort=rv&vw=d&brd=3876&ss=0&customapplicant=15513,15514,15515,15669,15523,15512,15516,45575&q=astronaut

I lucked out by not having to do it this time. Yeah it's invasive, but unlike them I work at the Johnson Space Center, I myself don't have access to classified data, but I'm just the other side of a wall from it. To me getting the background check and the low security clearance I have is sort of a mark of prestige and reliability. Honestly I wouldn't mind having a few more background checks if it means promotions, better pay, and more prestige. I'm at NASA for crying out loud, I'm glad they don't let just any schmuck off the street work here without some kind of clearance.

On another note, I don't recall my 85P form asking me if I was a homo or not, and I also don't recall retail transaction request. They did ask how much of what kind of debt I was in, I'm guessing to see if I was desperate for money or not. Yes they did ask about illegal drug use, but there was a time limit on it. I don't recall, but it wasn't to many years, four or so. All in all, I don't think much of the form was unreasonable, sure it was a pain in the ass to fill out, but it wasn't unreasonable.

If you want to see the form for yourself, here it is.

As for being at the JPL instead of the Cape or Johnson? Suck it up. This is for every federal position. Expect your postal carrier to be grouching about the form to.

I lucked out by not having to do it this time. Yeah it's invasive, but unlike them I work at the Johnson Space Center, I myself don't have access to classified data, but I'm just the other side of a wall from it. To me getting the background check and the low security clearance I have is sort of a mark of prestige and reliability. Honestly I wouldn't mind having a few more background checks if it means promotions, better pay, and more prestige. I'm at NASA for crying out loud, I'm glad they don't let just any schmuck off the street work here without some kind of clearance.

On another note, I don't recall my 85P form asking me if I was a homo or not, and I also don't recall retail transaction request. They did ask how much of what kind of debt I was in, I'm guessing to see if I was desperate for money or not. Yes they did ask about illegal drug use, but there was a time limit on it. I don't recall, but it wasn't to many years, four or so. All in all, I don't think much of the form was unreasonable, sure it was a pain in the ass to fill out, but it wasn't unreasonable.

If you want to see the form for yourself, here it is.

As for being at the JPL instead of the Cape or Johnson? Suck it up. This is for every federal position. Expect your postal carrier to be grouching about the form to.

First off. This whole article is just FUD. This is not the tracking of citizenry. This is simply a replacement for the pager.

Why Government Employees Make Less...

1. Pension. Government Employees earn a pension. Basically if you retire after 20 years you make 25%-up of the average of the last three years salaries. This is every year for the rest of your life. This varies greatly based on how long you work before retirement. To figure numbers for yourself take the last three years salaries average them. Take 1% (unless you are over 62 then use 1.1%) of that number and multiply that by your years of service. This is your annual benefit for the the rest of your life. http://www.opm.gov/fers_election/ri_90/f_bbp.htm#r o
2. Job Security. As a government employee your job is extremely stable. I have worked with many a government employee who needed to be fired. Even the supervisors cannot fire. Basically you don't get fired, you might get stuck in a horrible job. But short of commiting a crime your job is safe.
3. Lack of Productivity. This is purely anecdotal, but most government employees are nowhere near as productive as their salary gives them credit for. Now this is not always because the employee is lazy or whatever. It is a systemic problem that allows for the breeding of this kind of laziness and ineptitude. By the way I used to work in this system so I know a few things about it.

Just about every Well-Used(TM) government form that you will ever have to fill out in your life has been put into the .PDF format (Postal Service, Military, IRS) for interoperability amongst platforms. Although PDF is not a fully open standard, the fact it can be read with free (including free OS) software, makes it superior to anything Microsoft can distribute.

You want to see a fun, yet freely available, form from the government in PDF? Check out Form 86: http://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/SF86.pdf

Or just check out the entire range of forms from the OPM: http://www.opm.gov/forms/html/sf.asp and Postal Service: http://www.usps.com/forms/allforms.htm

BTW, why have all the "please type the word in this image: " images been 'sadist, suffer, atrophy, etc.' lately?

Just about every Well-Used(TM) government form that you will ever have to fill out in your life has been put into the .PDF format (Postal Service, Military, IRS) for interoperability amongst platforms. Although PDF is not a fully open standard, the fact it can be read with free (including free OS) software, makes it superior to anything Microsoft can distribute.

You want to see a fun, yet freely available, form from the government in PDF? Check out Form 86: http://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/SF86.pdf

Or just check out the entire range of forms from the OPM: http://www.opm.gov/forms/html/sf.asp and Postal Service: http://www.usps.com/forms/allforms.htm

BTW, why have all the "please type the word in this image: " images been 'sadist, suffer, atrophy, etc.' lately?

Your pay calcuations are a bit off. As examiners are on a special salary rate http://apps.opm.gov/SSR/tables/index.cfm they don't get the full COLA, however you get an automatic 3% a year in addition to the COLA for the first 4 steps per pay grade, 2 years for the next 3 per step, and i believe 4 after that.

Actually the PTO is paying up to 10k a year in bonuses for 4 years right now. Plus as a new examiner you can get up to 2 promotions in a single year (used to be eligible for 1 after 6 months and every year after that up to gs-13 though you can get your gs-14 promotion earlier). For someone with a year of experience prior to joining the PTO (or has a grad degree), they would start as a gs-7 making about 62k a year prior to bonuses. Within 4 years they can be making 100k prior to bonuses and overtime.

Did anyone mention the benefits? Due to high turnover the benefits package is awesome to retain examiners.
You get paid overtime (you can even work overtime at home! you can work up to gs-15 step 10 pay via OT and still get bonuses on top of that)
Flexible work schedule, you can take off every mon/wed/friday if you want, or work 12 hour days and take off most of the second week of the biweek. (infact the new flat goal work schedule you can work anywhere you want as long as you meet your quota, dont have to come in to the office)
comp time (my favourite benefit, work your hours in advance then go on a long vacation),
free law school (with service obligation),
up to 10k a year for related studies (masters/phd in your field or a related one),
Pension: 1% for each year of service, (same for federal government in general)
TSP (think 401k)
health benefits heavily subsidized
Rapid promotions, you can go from a gs-5 to gs-15 in as little as 6 years if you are straight out of college.
start off with 13 sick days and 13 vacation days (goes up to 19.5 after 3 years of service and 26 after 15 years of service), 11 federal holidays (i used to have off 57 regular days a year via 26 fridays off, 11 federal holidays and 19.5 vacation days)

For someone without a law degree, or uses the PTO to finance their law degree its not a bad deal.Even better if you are an examiner who is highly efficent you can easily make well into the mid 100's just by working 40 hours a week!

Examiners are not all lawyers however to get a promotion to gs-13 you have to take a modified version of the patent bar exam. If you quit/retire after passing this exam you can practice in front of the office/BPAI as a patent agent (or attorney if you passed the bar in any state/dc, you can do everything an attorney does except littigate).

Actually, it is required to have a degree. If you would do a little more 'examining,' you'd find this tab: http://jobsearch.usajobs.opm.gov/getjob.asp?JobID= 53094827&fn=4537&jbf574=CM56&brd=3876&AVSDM=2007-0 3-07+16%3A50%3A42&vw=b&Logo=0&FedPub=Y&caller=%2Fa 9pto.asp&pg=1&jbf571=13&FedEmp=N&ss=0&TabNum=3&rc= 2

And while it is possible for someone to start at $38,435/year, there is no practical way anyone would be hired at the LOWEST possible salary from the pay table for examiners: http://apps.opm.gov/SSR/tables/StaticFiles/SrText/ 0576_20070101.txt

Pay is actually very good, and it's easy (relative to industry) to get promoted/pay raises. It's possible to start at 7/10 (currently ~62k) and double your salary in about 4-5 years. There are very very few places in industry where that is possible.

Starting pay is commensurate with education AND your GPA. Your degree determines your pay grade, and your GPA determines your step.

Actually, it is required to have a degree. If you would do a little more 'examining,' you'd find this tab: http://jobsearch.usajobs.opm.gov/getjob.asp?JobID= 53094827&fn=4537&jbf574=CM56&brd=3876&AVSDM=2007-0 3-07+16%3A50%3A42&vw=b&Logo=0&FedPub=Y&caller=%2Fa 9pto.asp&pg=1&jbf571=13&FedEmp=N&ss=0&TabNum=3&rc= 2

And while it is possible for someone to start at $38,435/year, there is no practical way anyone would be hired at the LOWEST possible salary from the pay table for examiners: http://apps.opm.gov/SSR/tables/StaticFiles/SrText/ 0576_20070101.txt

Pay is actually very good, and it's easy (relative to industry) to get promoted/pay raises. It's possible to start at 7/10 (currently ~62k) and double your salary in about 4-5 years. There are very very few places in industry where that is possible.

Starting pay is commensurate with education AND your GPA. Your degree determines your pay grade, and your GPA determines your step.

Most of the open patent examiner positions are low wage with no degree required. http://jobsearch.usajobs.opm.gov/jobsearch.asp?re= 9&vw=b&pg=1&jbf571=13&fn=4537&FedEmp=N&jbf574=CM56 &brd=3876&ss=0&FedPub=Y&caller=%2Fa9pto.asp

http://www.opm.gov/oca/06tables/html/dcb.asp

Many people start at 7-1 or below, in B/W area that is 36671...that isn't much when you're average house is ~250-300K and rising

Base pase scale 7-1 is 31209. So if you are making that, but living in Kansas or somewhere vs making 36671 in DC, well, in Kansas you have a house, in DC you have a cardboard box! lol

I don't know which government at which level you work for, but the US federal government most definitely has a glass ceiling for people without degrees. See the OPM's Qualification Standards for General Schedule Positions, Professional and Scientific Positions. It's pretty hard to get above a GS-12 without at least a four-year degree.

http://www.opm.gov/oca/06tables/indexGS.asp

Kinda fun to look at, and then realize the government doesn't pay that well (yes, I know it's all about the benefits, but still).

Boeing, Safeco, MS.

(Safeco I am not sure about the exact length of, but I remember it was somethign decent)

US Government jobs are kind of weird. From here. Fathers are allowed to use their paid sick leave for paternity leave, but it a bit less than a month apparnetly. Someone tried to amend the law to give fathers ~6 weeks paid leave and another 6 unpaid, but of course that did not go over well.

According to BLS though, yah, it does seem rare. Only 7% of companies in 2000 offered it at all.... dicks.

Hmm, guess I am just spoiled by big name companies who come to my college and have flashy presentations showing off how good their benefits are! ^_^ Of course they then throw all our resumes in the trash, making one wonder why they bothered with the trip in the first place....

Bullshit.

the degree is worth more than you think.

Math majors get hired all the time. The major appears more esoteric than electrical engineer but there are lots of jobs out there where a variety of degrees can meet the requirements. In addition to that alot of fields prefer job candidates with more applied math skills like machine learning, computer vision and medical imaging. And, like mentioned above, financial companies have math heavy positions to look for credit card fraud and market modeling (but to work on wall street you will probably need an advanced degree).

When I was getting my degree (computational physics) I too was worried about my qualifications and felt I had to "specialize" or else I wouldnt be marketable. I am glad I did it but in the end what mattered more is I could show that I could do decent work by having a senior paper. My first job was doing semiconductor device fabrication in a research lab and I had almost no experience in the field. Now I am doing machine learning and work with mathematicians, computer scientists, and engineers. We all have our strengths but we all do very similar work.

And, for what it is worth, if you go to http://jobsearch.usajobs.opm.gov/ and search for jobs with the keyword AST (aerospace technology), the qualifications say

"Basic Education Requirement: A bachelor's degree from an accredited college or university with major study in an appropriate field of engineering, physical science, life science, computer science, or mathematics (not engineering technology). "

Those are the NASA jobs avaliable to math and engineering majors

If you're getting hired by the US Federal Government, and are going to have *any* kind of security clearance (and sometimes even when you won't), you'll have to fill out a form called an SF-86.

This document asks (in addition to a lot of very personal info) if you have ever been charged with ANY crime (except traffic tickets/moving violations with fines of less than $150), and if so you have to list the charges, the results of the charges, and the contact information for the court/jurisdiction the charges were brought. Even if you get supervision of something similar, you have to report it, even if it was expunged (except in a very specific circumstance).

And if you lie on the form, it's a Federal crime (18 USC 1001).

Within the Federal job application process, Social Security Number is a unique identifier. Applicants must provide their Social Security Number (SSN) to identify their records because other people may have the same name and birth date and the Federal Government is legally authorized to require this information. This authority is provided under Public Law 104-134. While job applications may occasionally be accepted in a system without the Social Security Number, your applications will likely not be accepted/processed if they do not give the hiring agency the information requested. Please know that the personal and private information you provide is encrypted during transmission and encrypted in our databases. Please also know that all personnel with access to sensitive data are legally bound to use the information only for its intended purposes. Please see our Privacy Statement: http://www.usajobs.opm.gov/privacy.asp for additional information.

AF has the best reputation of all the services for enlisted MOS and computers. if there are any contractors in your facility/base in your field then let them know you are getting out. most of them will get a referral bonus if you get hired. I can honestly say that nobody treats ex-military better than the DOD contractors. On the flipside, at the highest ranks they all prior service officers and as a former enlisted you may rise far into middle management but the senior positions for most DoD contractors will be out of your grasp. There is some Dilbertisms going on but for the most part its the Dilberting that you know as opposed to the ones you don't. As fas as going government, I did that for 5 years went through grades of GS9-12 as 0443 now changed to 2210. Inside DOD, is about 90% Dilbert with most of them trying to pass off their work to co-workers, subordinates and/or contractors. In and out of DoD, most of the supervisors took this career path; either data entry or secretarial work ->office automation specialist->information technician->supervisor. truly bizarre. on the flipside, i saw a lot of supervisors try to fire people and one person in particular was blatantly malignering, i.e. using sick leave to take days off and come in late, claiming doctor's appointments but never having any proof. after 3 years of documentation and counseling, the supervisor managed to get the person transferred. it was the best he could do. if you really want to go government; if you don't have a bachelor in something get one, if you do get a masters MBA or just generic MOM (aka Masters of Management) somewhere and skip the GS and apply straight to the SES http://jobsearch.usajobs.opm.gov/ses.asp beyond the military-industrial complex, I don't know I have never really left it.

Most of the human space flight engineers at NASA work in Houston at JSC. A 30-something engineer is at least a Grade 13 (GS-13) Step 6 or so. According to the pay tables that's $97K/year. Enough to support all of New Delhi I suppose...

Engineers salaries:management salaries is probably higher on NASA programs than about anywhere.

While working level engineers who work directly for NASA are paid fairly competitively, government rules cap salaries of management. Everything is defined by the federal payscales, available here

An engineer with 10 years of experience is typically a GS-13. In Houston, for example, he's making somewhere around $90,000/year. His immediate manager is probably a GS-14 making around $105k, and that guy's boss is probably a GS-15 who makes around $130k. The numbers vary depending on years in service. Most astronauts are falling into these ranges as well.

Griffin, as the head of NASA, is paid on the SES (Senior Executive Service) scale, which caps out at $162,000. That's here.

Contractor management is a little better (the CEOs of the likes of Boeing and Lockheed can pull in over $10 million annually with bonuses and stock), but it's very unusual to run into a NASA contractor (manager or otherwise) making more than $200,000/year.

Engineers salaries:management salaries is probably higher on NASA programs than about anywhere.

While working level engineers who work directly for NASA are paid fairly competitively, government rules cap salaries of management. Everything is defined by the federal payscales, available here

An engineer with 10 years of experience is typically a GS-13. In Houston, for example, he's making somewhere around $90,000/year. His immediate manager is probably a GS-14 making around $105k, and that guy's boss is probably a GS-15 who makes around $130k. The numbers vary depending on years in service. Most astronauts are falling into these ranges as well.

Griffin, as the head of NASA, is paid on the SES (Senior Executive Service) scale, which caps out at $162,000. That's here.

Contractor management is a little better (the CEOs of the likes of Boeing and Lockheed can pull in over $10 million annually with bonuses and stock), but it's very unusual to run into a NASA contractor (manager or otherwise) making more than $200,000/year.

A simple look at employment statistics http://www.opm.gov/feddata/demograp/02demo.pdf would reveal rampant reverse discrimination.

It is difficult to explain how minority and female employment figures are constantly rising (even to percentages above relative population within the U.S.), while white male figures are constantly falling without considering reverse discrimination.

Clearly this does not apply to the highest levels of civil service, which I admit appears to be almost exclusively white males, however for middle management and below, the figures are astonishing.

Don't get me wrong, I do not judge a person by race

I will admit to judging the fairer sex, mostly by bust size, and leg length, try as I might, I can't seem to avoid this - but that judgment was against suitability for mating, not against professional competence.

I have worked with some very talented people in my career, many of them people of minority status, and I don't ever remember considering their race - or sex - when judging their competence.

When the first thing you think of when you hear OPM is The Office of Personnel Management. Wow, those guys do gaming too? They probably pwn at Roller Coaster Tycoon.

But I bet they go home, play Splinter Cell, and secretly wish they worked for another three letter agency.

It amazes me that a government agency in charge of 'managing' a computer security -- sorry, Assurance -- program would use such an item for a User ID. Even more amazingly, when I started the program, that little lock in the bottom right-hand corner wasn't even there! OPM did not appreciate me addressing the irony of websites security when I started the program.

"This logo will look cheap and dated 5 years from now, I guarantee it. I would prefer a more "timeless" logo, closer to monochromatic, two-dimensional. Something that could be sketched with a pen, yet be completely unique and recognizable."

You mean you want logos like this?

Personally, I like the 3-dimensional shiny brushed metal icons. Computer graphics have an easy time drawing these types of images; they are very simple as far as their composition and they scale easily (they are actually simple 2-D images). Computer images have an easy time doing shiny, artificial-looking objects -- you'll notice this if you watch any CG attempts at natural images, such as Toy Story or Final Fantasy. I say forget trying to emulate other mediums on the computer. See how far you can go using something native to the computer.

http://jobsearch.usajobs.opm.gov/jobsearch.asp?q=u nix&salmin=&salmax=&paygrademin=&paygrademax=&FedE mp=N&sort=rv&vw=d&brd=3876&ss=0&FedPub=Y&SUBMIT1.x =0&SUBMIT1.y=0&SUBMIT1=Search+for+Jobs