Slashdot Mirror
IT and Divorce?
frank_tudor asks: "I am graduate student and work as a web developer. I am also getting a divorce and I have a son caught in the middle.
I believe my profession had a part in it. For my graduate thesis I am writing a paper about Dads who work in the computer industry, divorce and custody. I think our industry causes a high rate of divorce but I need some help from the Slashdot community.
My questions are: How many of you computer Dads have also gone through divorce and have retained either half or full custody of your children? Do you think your job had something to do with it? What were some of your hardest challenges and are your kids happy?"
IT didn't cause your divorce. Stop trying to look for external causes when they were internal. My Dad worked in IT and my parents are still married, nearly 40 years now.
Aren't you worried that, in light of your personal life issues, this thesis might come across a little...I dunno...biased? Just a tad?
Unpleasantries.
want to blame everything except the parties involved...
The first step? My wedding next year.
Think of the Children; Sleep with your Sister
It was a couple patches ago when my wife filed for divorce. I'll never forget the day because that night, my epic tier two helm piece dropped and I won it for only 150 DKP. I don't think I'll ever understand why she did it. I was by her side the entire time she was being charged with child abuse. I know she never abused our son because I was in the other room on TeamSpeak when the alleged beating occurred and I didn't hear any screams except those of my guildmates dying from Nefarion. I know I should have attended the custody hearings for our son but the only night of the week I don't raid on is Tuesdays and the judge refused to move the dates. Call me crazy, but I never saw it coming.
... it would probably fail miserably with "I don't want to be a nerd like you, dad!"
Yep, the only reason she left me is because I'm in the IT field. I make a lot more cash on average & my job as software developer is one of the most highly sought after in the nation. Computers are becoming more and more prolific in everyday life so I maintain a solid job. But from what I've told you, it's pretty obvious that being in the IT field is what separated me and my wife. Looking back, I miss the times she brought me a beer as I was stacking sunders.
Sorry to make light of your situation, Frank, but honestly I think that a lot of IT people know how easy it is to find pr0n online. I've heard this is a growing concern. Honestly, the perks of an IT job would probably be desirable for the wife, I think it's just the fact that the person is more clued in to how to use computers for pleasure and addiction. IT filed offers more money and doesn't ravage your body (at least not like construction or farm work does). Whether it be Warcraft or pr0n, these addictions pay a toll on a happy marriage. If you find a correlation, it's probably in those topics, not just IT.
About the questions with kids, I don't have any but I would think that it would be very simple to get them involved with a computer project and spend plenty of weekend time with them. Then again, that's just what I would dream of happening
My work here is dung.
[Insert obvious joke here]
Frank,babe. Hate to break to you. The woman was just out for your fantastic genes. She has the kids now and is ready to move on to the area bad boy :-)
Like spoons made Rosie fat.
People who self-select a career in information technology tend to have poor social skills.
Think about it.
We recently had heard in the office over one of the Yellow Machine that's made by Anthology Solutions.
Most Slashdotters can barely manage to get away from their computers and speak to a women ... how on earth do you expect them to have actually been married and then divorced :)
My ex-wife's job had more to do with it then mine, she was screwing her service manager.
Are you seriously planning to use responses here as "data" for a graduate-level academic thesis?
if your divorce has anything to do with the fact that you're an idiot.
people that have trouble communication about non technical things may have trouble with relationships.
I wish this was fark, obvious tag...
The phrase "more better" is acceptable English. suck it grammar Nazis
I too am a divorced geek. Fortunately I had no children with the ex, and I don't know if it's the job so much that contributed to it as much as my geekness.
Even when we're not at work, we're still geeks and concerned with all manner of geekery.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Married? Kids? I'm still running girlfriend 5.0 since I'd heard the upgrades to wife 1.0 came with so many problems I'd stick with what already works for me. :-P
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
But I seriously doubt this type of data collection is going to fly for a PhD thesis. I hope you're a Master's student, your advisor is ridiculously lenient and he/she has somehow never heard of confirmation bias.
Warning: Apple/Nintendo fangirl. Likes her electronics cute & cuddly. May be rabid.
My ex cited long working hours and "workaholism" as the primary reasons. They were not the only reasons, but she thought they were primary.
After remarrying, I've made very sure to spend less time at work and more with my family.
At least nerds can learn from experience.
Sorry about the AC reply, my wife reads Slashdot.
1) Ask /. is now officially worthless
2) Your thesis is horribly flawed
3) Your wife is leaving you because you whine too much
This
I wonder what the author, or others might attribute to the IT industry that is a strain on a marriage.
I've had times that I need to choose between work and home, and I may not have as much lattitude in that decision in some ways as another profession. But I'm not sure what might be an issue more or less than another career.
As for myself, I feel pretty lucky that while things in the server room are working well I'm given quite a bit of lattitude to deal with family issues. Which is good considering the critical nature of many of these issues.
Surely you can't discount the fact that IT workers are drawn from a different portion of the population which makes it difficult if not impossible to prove that there is a causative factor?
It sounds like an interesting topic, but be careful with overstating the implications of your correlational results.
Getting your advice from slashdot.
His job smacked his wife around. Now seriously, who's gonna stay in a relationship like that? I mean come on...
His job was also very lazy, never did anything around the house. And it would never listen! If you're going to be in a relationship with a man, women, and a job, everyone needs respect each other and their personal space. But job just didn't know when to back off either... it would keep pressing and pressing... jesus, I'm in the bathroom. Just leave me alone!
Due to the sometimes-long hours, on-call rotation, nightly work, and general stress, some IT people can experience this situation. I'm in IT and recently got a divorce. But I don't believe the cause was my job nor the hours worked. I'm sure that my have factored into it a small percentage, due to the time spent away from home and away from my wife causing some distancing, but definitely not a deciding factor. People sometimes grow apart or want to persue other interests that subconsiously drive these things. One may not see the exact causes.
Do you bring your work home with you? Is your hobby computers and does it take most up of your free time? Do you commute to work and end up getting home late every night? I work in an IT possition as well and though my marriage is a good one...I could probably play computer games less. Well, mainly one...World of Warcraft. I have taken it easy lately on it since I do have a 6 month old baby girl...but if computers have taken over your life, trust me...its not the IT Industry ruining your marriage...its you. People with the same fascination with cars or fishing or hunting. If those hobbies take over their lives, their personal life is affected. Doctors have the same problem. They work long hours and end up with bad personal lives.
Click Click Bloody Click PANCAKES!
My wife and I were quite happy together when we worked full time (same company, different departments). It wasn't until we retired and started actually spending time together that we got divorced.
... I just want you to know that I'm sorry that you and your family are in this situation. It's painful for everybody, and I feel for you.
For my graduate thesis I am writing a paper about Dads who work in the computer industry, divorce and custody. I think our industry causes a high rate of divorce but I need some help from the Slashdot community.
I realize this may come across as a cheap shot but...
If you're writing a graduate level paper, shouldn't you actually do some, you know, statistical analysis to support your core hypothesis rather than go with, "I have a feeling and asked some other nerds."?
You're far more likely to get results with, "Statistics show that while divorce is at n%, n+y% of male IT workers experience divorce. This thesis looks at prime causes for that y% and performs a statistical breakdown of their effects." than "I got divorced, I work in IT, it sucked. This paper's about how I'm pretty sure IT made it happen. I asked some other nerds what they think."
Before blaiming work you should look at all the numbers.
Devorce Rate in your country. Percentages of Dads who win custity. Then break it out by Professional Sector and Labor Sectors in buisness.
Now if the devorce rate for Web Developers is 85% and Chances to get custity is 5% and the average for the Professional Sector is 45% Then you may have a point. But if it 50% IT Professionals and 50% Professional Sector and 50% national. Then it is just your fault not work.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I am a network engineer at a large steel manufacturer. I am also currently engaged and have a 3 month old son. Now I love both of them, but I've frequently wondered if we ever did split would I be able to share custody. Work is very demanding and often more time outside of the office for research and studying. Of course I would want to see my child, and could provide finacially, but what about emotionally, honestly I don't think I could, maybe on the weekends if that. It's sad to say but some jobs make it almost impossible to be a single parent without a lot of assistence, as a male, I am not very motherly and would probably need a nanny or something, and I just wouldn't want to do that to him, he would be better off with his mother, as hard as that is to say. My advice would be to really evaluate your career and how much time you really have in a day to care for your child. Good luck.
In a world of acronyms, the words are the real victims.
after two marriages ending in divorce i no longer take love & romance serously, i refuse to let my emotions control me like that anymore, i dont care how pretty or nice or available a women makes her self she wont get more than sex and a place to spend the night from me...
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
If your income is so important that you sacrifice your relationship, you don't deserve neither.
I work in IT, I have been doing it for 10 years now. TEN FUCKING YEARS.
Has this destroyed my relationships? No. It has added stress.
So I'm quitting next year. I hate what this field has done to my life. So *I* am making a change.
Grow a pair and quit blaming your problems on your job. It's you that is at fault.
The obvious being that many geeks make poor (perhaps "premature" is a more fair word) choices in their personal lives. Before you mod me down, consider how many geek friends you know that go for girls that are TERRIBLE matches for them. Many geeks make very good choices too, of course, but it seems there's no middle ground; geeks either know themselves, or they don't, and it seems to reflect in their personal lives as well.
I work on the TAC of the second-largest vendor of IP-routing equipment (guess which one). While I am not married, most of my collegues are. The divorce-rate is fairly low. I think this is due to the "normal" working hours we have. Unlike previous jobs (at ISP's, being -the- tech), in my current role there is plenty of opportunity to hand of a case if it needs out-of-hours attention. This combined with the fact that most of my collegues (yes, that includes me) have lost the 24/7-drive to tech-stuff, it helps to have a normal family life.
Now I'm waiting for the flames here. Yes I know we all feel we have a decent life. Yes I know we all feel it is possible to combine being a "hardcore-techie" with being a "family man". But deep down inside we all know that this is pretty much impossible. You can't tech 24/7 and dad 24/7. At work you tech, at home you dad. Itsasimple.
Not sure if any of the data you have here is going to be significant ... and since this _is_ slashdot, I doubt highly that you could use it as a reference on a graduate thesis. Personally, I've been married for 3 years and have a son, which I'm sure outcasts me in the group. But, I digress.
... far from it. Here are some traits I observed which one side, the other, or both had in those cases: personality conflicts, lack of communication skills, unwillingness to communicate, unwillingness to listen, self-absorption leading to the exclusion of the other, disjoint financial strategies, unfair domestic workload balance, ho-hum disregard for the children. I never saw a particular job or anything actually interfere.
I have a couple friends that have been divorced, though they are from different professions. In those cases, the job wasn't the crowning gem in the divorce itself
Where I'm at now in my mid-30s, most of the guys I work with are married and have been for quite some time. There are very few divorcees and the people I know are very loyal to their partners and their families. I'd have to say that here in IT, those of us who are married are a pretty fun, stable bunch.
I think you need to stop blaming your career for your divorce and do a little more soul searching.
// Agent Green (Ian / IU7 / KB1JQO)
// IEEE 802.3: All 10base Are Belong To Us
Doctors work long hours, especially surgeons, and have high divorce rates. Same with lawyers. Basically, any job in which you're working long hours and not spending time with your wife is a contributing factor for divorce. We've known this for at least several decades.
I work as an IT person (net admin, specifically) and I went through a divorce with 2 kids.
:)
I came out with a shared parenting plan and am considered the custodial or residential parent (the 2 kids live with me, and have structured times w/ their mother). My divorce, however, was not due directly to my workload. It was due to the fact that my ex is an alcoholic with violent tendencies... my long hours irritated her, sure - but that's about it.
Long hours suck the life out of everyone - but they are an unfortunate side-effect of what we have chosen to do for a living. This is beginning to change a bit, I've noticed - I can do my work from home when I need to be home with the kids due to a great implementation of citrix and vpns (not to toot my own horn), and my cell phone keeps me in constant contact when needed.
--endcycle--
We won't even need the 'No Girls Allowed' sign.
-recently divorced geek
--1 year old son
---half custody!
I know I am going to sound like a total asshole, but you really need to work on your methodology. Gathering data for a thesis on Slashdot is not going to get you anywhere.
Grab hold of an assistant professor or someone similar and make him give you the 101 on basic research.
And good luck on your thesis.
I know this won't be a popular post, but I have to ask you what steps you have taken toward changing the course of your marriage? When choosing to marry someone (assuming you used somewhat standard vows), you claim that you will put that person ahead of all other things - including your career, if necessary.
Obviously, I'm not saying you should stop working if your wife and son don't feel you spend enough time at home, but asking the question "I wonder if my job led to my divorce?" makes me wonder if you've had an objective conversation with your family about all of this. Perhaps you could see a counselor to at least help you understand what got you to this point and what steps could be taken to change course.
Marriage is hard. Its a lot of work. If you aren't willing to give up on your child, then why give up on your marriage? I wish people valued marriage half as much as they valued their relationship to their children.
I've seen divorcees willing to move to other states, pay lots of money, adjust their schedules, adjust their lifestyles... all just to be with their kids. Spouses should do the same thing. Its all a matter of priority. Marriage just doesn't mean as much anymore.
These days, people divorce because they argue too much. Or because "the spice" is gone. Or because they don't like arguing about money. Or because the in-laws hate each other. Or because wife gained some weight and doesn't look good enough anymore. Get over it. Man up and deal with it and treat the marriage with the importance it deserves.
I've been married for eight years now and I have a child. Some of that married time has been REALLY hard. But I treat my marriage like my child. It would take a LOT for me to give up on my child. Same for my marriage.
Its all about priorities.
Your writing a paper about Divorce and Dad's and your surprised your getting a divorce too? If I was you, I'd write a new thesis - How to get laid like a rockstar. Then you can post to slashdot a few months later and go "Do you think the IT industry has a problem with getting real work done when the b-----ches won't back the f--- off a brother? Damn girl, I'm trying to write a paper here."
Clearly your focused on the wrong type of research.
Oh shit, I better start practicing safer porn viewing!
Monstar L
it has nothing to do with our careers, it has to do with woman are crazy. if you want more info read http://nomarriage.com/
Cyberbite Networks - Web Hosting, Dedicated Servers & Colocati
I'm married with two happy children. I know several people who have gotten divorced and have shared custody of children. None are IT professionals.
The high instance of divorce in the US is much more related to materialism, disconnectedness (also called "independence") and ideas of "self", attitudes towards relationships and the myth of satisfaction than any scapegoat, popular (homosexuality) or unpopular (IT professionals).
I always tell my single friends that finding a spouse and marriage is more about being the right person than finding the right person.
Good luck on your thesis. I hope it's well researched and well received. Obviously there's more to it than you could put in an "Ask Slashdot."
YOU are the one in control of the industry in which you work and how much time you put in. Saying your career was a great factor in your divorce sounds to me like you loved your job more than your partner.
Writing a paper on divorce in an industry where many have sustaining healthy relationships seems to me like a collosal attempt to avoid looking at the truth and to justify what has happened.
I'm not saying a short marriage can't be a successful one -- it just sounds like you aren't happy with what is going on and I think you have some larger questions to ask yourself. Any of us can make something else a higher priority that our marriage. Is this what you have done?
I wonder if there may be a relation with Asperger's Syndrome. According to an article in Wired, Apserger's is disproportionally common among IT people.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
I've graduated as an IT software engineer. Later I realized that there is only a few places where you can feel secure in this industry today. Most of the jobs are "dead-end job" type engagements... I build a small hotel in the hills to profit from winter sky seasons here and so far so good. Even bank manager was ok to lend me money, because he had clear understanding of the business I was about to conduct, something very rare in the IT business these days.
Honestly. Is this advice really to be used?
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own!"
...maybe might be done with second marriage in a few years. However, this time, it is no fault of my S.O. She is a fine and great person in her own right. I'm just not marriage material and increasingly finding my self with a "trapped" feeling, like I'm in some sort of obligation without understanding what I really got into (both marriages)
;)
In my case, I enjoy my work, career (software development), and hobbies more than I care about family and traditions. Also, I am a bastard and find it increasingly difficult to live with other people; however, I don't know if that is exactly an IT-only thing.
I know if this second marriage does dissolve sometime down the road (not 100% guaranteed it will, just looking that way, and mostly my fault), I'm not doing it again. As it is I have a dim view of relationships and marriage and raising families, etc.
Maybe it has to do with my work and my personality pre-disposition to such work. I do software development during the day, *sometimes* contract work in the evenings, I geek out for my hobbies, and I'd rather go out and have a few drinks more often than be trapped at home when I have time to go out. I'm not very family-oriented, and getting less as they days go by, while my wife is fairly family-oriented, and getting more as the days pass by. When will be the point of difference between us that is so far we don't care anymore? Oddly, we never really fight, we get along great most of the time.
I've been in IT for some years now. I went through a divorce. Was my profession responsible, no. I have a wonderful son and share custody 50/50.
I worked at a startup for 1 year, during that year I rarely if ever saw my family. Did that job contribute to my divorce? No, because I decided to quit that job, and find another (That year surely didn't help my relationship, however it wasn't the catalyst to the failure of the marriage).
Divorce can be a horribly emotional experience, we often soul search to find out "what went wrong, what could've I done differently". Sometimes, you just got to sit back.. take a deep breath, and just realize it didn't work out. Regardless of whether she cheated, you cheated, you were away working all the time, she wasn't a good wife, and the myriad of other reasons, nothing can change the present situation... so...
Best advice, Keep your cool and move forward. If you feel the job's a problem start looking for a new one.
Awesome!
It's issues like these that really give me a bad taste in my mouth with it comes to women's rights and equality and such. Not that I want to bring the discussion off-topic, but in order for there to be true equality, women would infact have to give up certain rights. One of these being the fact that women are almost always given custody of children in a divorce. I went through this, not as the parent, but as the child. The issue itself is really independant of your job. By default, my mom was awarded full custody. My dad threatened to take the issue to court to fight for custody. I don't know your overall financial situation, but the thought of hiring a lawyer and going through more legal process than already required by a divorce was enough for my mom give up half custody. As far as any advise I could offer, if it is possible to live close to your ex, try and do so. I constantly moved every other week, across town. It was hard to maintain friends. It was hard to get to school on time living way outside my district, and it was held against me when I would be late so often. To be honest, it was tough not have one place to call home. But at the same time I feel like having the influence of both parents in my life was a positive thing. Hope things work out for you.
Similes are like metaphors
give me a break "It's all my career choice's fault"
If you had a job that forced you to put your family second for long periods of time, you should have considered a change of career.
How much of that money went to things you NEEDED? how much went to things you WANTED?
you should have wanted a family more.
My God, man. You get divorced because one of you married a loser... or someone that turned into one. This isn't a function of your job type, it's a function of YOU (or her).
If you work 60+ hour weeks and this has a negative effect on your marriage that's not because of your job, it's because you continued to work 60+ hour weeks, duh.
Yes, we all know there are places that expect 60 hour weeks, and guess what, if your home life is important to you then you'll find someplace else.
I work in a shop that stresses a 40 hour week and pays OT when they need to. I check with the wife to see if she minds me putting in a few more hours later in the week because it's important to her, and me, that the kids actually know who I am.
Don't blame your computer for your jacked up family life...
This is just my biased opinion as a divorcee with no children to speak of. Although I do not work in information technology I have noticed in myself and other men, that there's this strange change that happens in the relationship. Keep in mind that my analysis fails to make any attempt at acknowledging the paradigm shift associated with modern feminist ideals.
As a bread winner in the family, husbands tend to get caught up in their career; they take a great sense of pride in accomplishment with their work, time spent, and advancements in their career. This sense of pride helps in legitimizing their efforts as the bread winner. But in the process, the husband loses sight of those goals and dreams that were once shared with their spouse to raise a child. They find a new dream to be head of the IT department, to be CFO, CEO, or whatever snazzy title, becomes a very singular narrow minded path, that tends to exclude their spouse and children. In my opinion, relationships are built on shared dreams and goals, and when those dreams and aspirations diverge, two different lives are forcibly born from a once shared sense of unity. I fail at reaching any sort of viable resolve, other than there needs to a level of acceptance by both parties that, these are the dreams we aspire to raise a happy health child, but this is the path we must take to attain those dreams. Along that path is hardship; and time spent apart, but there must be constant reinforcement that the work and time spent is for the greater good of the relationship. And what is that goal or dream that you both hold in the relationship? Sometimes it is to have a happy family with 2.5 children, other times it is a lot more simple like wanting to grow old together. So it is not just about the child, but the shared hopes and dreams. Blah, I wish I had a better conclusion.
I hate all sigs, even this one.
Ironically, the CAPTCHA word is "acquit"
I'm not convinced there's a big difference between IT divorces and other divorces caused by people who are often away on business or have on-duty responsibilities, or true workaholics. Depending on the situation this might be a factor in custody decisions. If you're doing well and have a nanny and are every bit the nice guy as some fathers in the open source world are, then don't worry. On the other hand, if you're up to $200K in debt, have had a restraining order and know your company is in financial trouble.. then you might consider other priorities than custody because you should darn well know you're in no position to take care of children at the moment. Just to mention something recent.
Point being, be honest with yourself and judge whether you are capable of taking care of children in combination with your job. Don't make a principle point out of it based on your best intentions but admit you can't bear unlimited responsibility and might have to set priorities sometimes. I bet it also really depends on your current relationship with your children. If you're just the guy who cuts the meat Sundays, you'd be stupid to think you will all of a sudden be. Visitation rights would be more than enough and could always be extended if indeed you would start to find it easy to shift the balance between from home to work step by step.
that you're married, have a kid and somehow thought that you'd have plenty of time for grad school -and- work.
disclaimer: I don't know you.
there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
Reconsider. You are much too personally involved with the topic to write a fair, balanced and scholarly work.
Anyone that works long hours is going to have a hard time maintaining their relationship. It really has nothing to do with the industry itself, but instead is a result of people neglecting their relationship to spend more time at work or on their computer. I've gone through that myself, with my wife and I going through a separation before I realized that I needed to spend more time with her and less time on the computer. Same goes for mechanics, engineers, managerial staff, etc. Leave your work at work and spend some time with your wife.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. --Winston Churchill
I was in a relationship for eight and half years with my ex. We'd bought a house together nine months earlier and I thought things were okay. Yes, I'd been working *a lot*, like nearly every weekend for the last three months. She'd got a promotion which took her out of town a few nights a week, I didn't mind, she'd been really supportive of my career in the early days and I figured it was me returning the favour.
I came home one Sunday evening and she announced she'd met someone else and she was leaving me. She'd known him for a month and was in love with him, she still loved me but she wasn't *in love* with me. WTF?! No it's not up for discussion, I'm moving out. So I got fifteen minutes notice that my relationship was over.
I knew that we'd been distant but I'd resolved that I was going to put the effort into our relationship as soon as this project was delivered.
Have you figured out the moral yet?
and in this order of importance:
the key is to manage your time - you can meet a deadline *and* keep your private life if you're organized and diligent.
When you recognize love in another and realize how precious it is, everything else seems so insignificant.
Why are you so concerned about your job? If you've put so much work into your job that you've neglected your family do you really think you should get full custody of the children?
I know it's difficult but think of yourself second to your kids. Your wife is not "the enemy" she is an ally you're struggling with at the moment. If you're working so hard you can't spend time with your kids don't have them for more than weekends you won't be working.
Some times it's hard to think when you have a knife in your heart, but it's these times you need to.
I like muppets.
But as many people have said what is the primary reason your wife has filed for divorce.. if it is because you are never home and work to much expect to be hard pressed to get full custody of your child. If it is for other reason outside of work then you may have a better chance. This is really has nothing to do with the IT sector it has to do with any field of work.. if you spend more time there then with your family the majority of the time then expect to be divorced. Balance is the key and yes some IT jobs are more demanding than others but they are also the ones that are more flexible. Most web developers I know work 8 to 5 unless they are pressed by a deadline or just starting out.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" -- Albert Einstein
In my experience, people in the IT industry have a lower incidence of divorce in general. It is more likely that divorce happens because you do not prioritise what's really important (work vs. relationship). Blaming it on your job is just silly.
Personally, I feel that people who are attracted to IT, and those who succeed in IT, are people on the Autism spectrum. People diagnosed as having Aspergers syndrome or Aspergers usually have:
- Lack of observed desire for friendship
- Poor ability to make friends
- Indifferent to the feelings of others
- Social awkwardness
- Indiscriminate social interaction
- Lack of eye contact
- Brief response to questions
- Gullibility
Sounds like an average woman's dream guy.Couple that with easy divorce and people not willing to make sacrifices for a marriage, you have divorce.
Personally, I think the ideal of marriage of a man and a woman who are best friends and meet each other's fantasy of the perfect make is unrealistic. It creates a disillusioned, jaded populace. I spent a summer in a field study school with an Indigenous family in Ecuador. The living pattern was basically the oldest mom and dad, their children, grandchildren, and various extended family members and in-laws. Life was centered around the cooking fire, and to me, it felt like there was a big party that never ended.
Now, I'm not saying the system was perfect or a utopia, but it seems that the young couples had less stress raising young children because they had a greater support network. Children basically ran around freely and could entertain each other. Other women and grandmothers would handle children who needed more care.
In the US and Europe, people live basically isolated, lonely, stressed out lives.
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
-- Pablo Picasso
No.
1. Hardest challenges: being a single father with an eighteen month old son, learning to actually be a parent, growing up, staying focused on the job because...TADA! divorce sucks...regardless of what profession you claim on your 1040.
2. Happy Kids? You don't have a teenager do you? Happy is a relative term. And, yes, my children are relatively happy.
I also must say I think your thesis premise sucks. But good luck anyway.
Probaly cheating on you with someone who is a better man, like someone who knows Death Yoga and not afraid of a little BDSM.
US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
Blaming your career for divorce? I guess I can see blaming workaholism for divorce, or maybe if your career was pornography or rock star, but IT? Really?
My personal experience is that IT geeks have lower divorce rates, but I could be wrong. I think the divorce problem touches on a number of issues, so making a correlation here would be difficult.
[FromTheMorning]
but then again, just think how the other 50% of marriages end!!
hint - pine box...
ALL professions carry this risk depending on the personal circumstances. If you are a person who lets your job consume your life, it doesn't matter if you're a short order cook, a Wall Street banker, a Head of State or anything in between.
I fixed a few errors and omissions in your summary of your current plight:
I am graduate student and work as a web developer. I am also getting a divorce and I have a son caught in the middle. I believe my choices, including allowing myself to devote too much of my passion to my profession instead of my family had a part in it. For my graduate thesis I am writing a paper about Dads who work in the computer industry, divorce and custody. Since I cannot fathom how my own personal actions could have had any relation to this outcome, I came up with this thesis to cast the blame to somewhere else, making me look like the victim: I think our industry causes a high rate of divorce but I need some help from the Slashdot community. My questions are: How many of you computer Dads have also gone through divorce and have retained either half or full custody of your children? Do you think your poor choices had something to do with it? What were some of your hardest challenges and do your kids share your selfish lack of committment?"
Note: I have no idea of any of the circumstances surrounding the submitter's real life, but his summary made it sound like he didn't really want advice, but just wanted help vindicating his newly formed self-victimizing attitudes about the whole situation.
So, from the people I know in the field, I'm going to have to guess the divorce rate is lower among IT people than the general population. It is what 55% in the US now? Sure people neglect their spouses because their career interferes, but that isn't limited to the IT profession.
They tell the woman that they love 'em, and figure that the woman should understand that the value of love for that woman should be 'true' from now until they tell her that it is now 'false'.
Unfortunately, the woman needs to have the value of love set every time she boots in the morning, and occasionally during the day also.
Playing Call of Duty 8 hours a night for a month straight doesn't help either.
Once I was a four stone apology. Now I am two separate gorillas.
Just my two cents... but being married with children while working and going to school might have something to do with it.
Male nerds, desperate for female companionship, marry the first attractive female they can get their hands on... ignoring the things that they should well know will cause a bad marrage. Also, in many cases adult nerds have money, which makes them attractive to the wrong kind of women. In the end, it is a disaster.
Please nerds, be picky... do not fall in love with a girl just because she is hot, and you don't think you can get better, when you know she has personality problems that are going to be a big mess in the future!
Only on Slashdot will a comment as the parent gets modded +Informative...
This is my sig. There are thousands more, but this one is mine.
You should check out The Vault. Much info about work caused family problems are discussed in the forums archives.
See how plausible these edits sound to you:
I'd personally find it more likely that divorce rates are a product of our society. Our workplaces are certainly a factor, perhaps even the dominant factor, but I don't think divorce rates vary significantly corresponding to industry.
It's my impression, though. If your study yields compelling evidence to the contrary please let us know, I'm sure such an article would make it on Slashdot.
Seriously, if you've come to the point of getting a divorce, it's a problem with you and your spouse. Don't blame your job, your health, your astrological sign, or whatever. They might contribute to the problem, but the problem was there long before then. If, e.g., you work too much and don't spend quality time with your husband/wife/kids, that's a family problem. Either you or your spouse (probably both of you) need to recognize that everything starts with you.
:)
Damn, I'm starting to sound like Dr. Phil.
... IT does not "cause divorce."
Neither do trees. Or the weather. Or hockey.
What may cause divorce are your choices in how to deal with each of these things.
If you let technology, or the job, or your boss, take priority over your loved ones and family, that is your decision.
Sadly North American society places the almighty buck ahead of everything, and that translates to a belief that The Job is more important than any other thing in life.
There are people and places who have rejected these attitudes to varying degrees. In Europe, where work weeks are often quite less than the 40 hour minimum common here, and vacations begin at multiple weeks each year. In intentional communities, where a balance between work and life and family is central to the overall design of the environment. Or even with a small number of employers who have realized that happy and healthy employees lead to greater long term productivity and profits.
So don't place the blame on "IT", place it on yourself and take long hard look.
Three Squirrels
Denial - This is the stage you are in now. You are denying that your wife slept with me. You are looking to other places to set the blame.
Anger - When you finally realize that I am much better and smarter than you, you are going to be angry at me. You will probably try to start a flame war on a message board, or attempt to h@x0r my machine.
Bargaining - When your attempts at h@x0ring me fail you will try to work out some sort of bargain. No I will not perform felatio on you.
Depression - You will start listening to EMO and more than likely end up shaping your calluses by playing some random MMORPG. "Time after Time" by Cyndi Lauper will be your favorite tune.
Acceptance - she is gone and you now realize I am much better of a man than you. and now you can finally play warcraft all day, not worrying about hygiene, sleep or food.
I grew up in a household that was abundant in two things; computers and marital tension. My father is an IT entrepreneur. My mother is a teacher. I have a feeling that my father was a lot cooler in college when they met. Of course, when the ex-hippie turned pseudo-philosopher graduates from college and runs into the brick wall of real life, certain decisions have to be made. He runs into computing in the late 70's and it's a match made in heaven, far stronger than anything my parents ever had. As the divorce was happening, I blamed it on tension created by certain members of the extended family, but I was 12 when they separated, so my analysis at the time holds no weight. In retrospect, almost 13 years later, I now see that the computer, or at least the number of hours logged in front of it had much more to do with it. Admittedly, the divorce messed me up for quite a while, as I think they mess up most children (especially at that age) but things are much better now than they were before. Both my parents remarried and are extremely successful now in both their careers and personal lives. My sister and I both lead productive, well-balanced lives and have great relationships with both sets of parents.
I'd venture a guess that you could make a correlation between ANY job that elicits long, dedicated hours and divorce. It's the way social evolution seems to work. Community -> Family -> Individual -> Online Groups -> Large Online Communities. That may be a little contrived, but hopefully you all get the point.
First of all. Get whoever is counsil(I don't know the american term) on thesis and kick him in the nuts.
Secondly, make him explain to you why collecting data on slashdot is a waste of time.
Thirdly, the premise of your thesis is uncertain at best. Proposing "our industry causes a high rate of divorce", is like saying "putting your head under water kills you" - it may not be wrong, but it does not explain anything. Could the reason for a (possible) higher rate of divorce be long hours? Or how about social disorders among computer scientists? Or any number other reasons.
You have had a pretty nasty experience. You need to get over it - Not glorify it in a thesis.
I am graduate student ... getting a divorce and I have a son ....
If you're a grad student and you've spent enough time in the marriage to raise a son and get around to wanting a divorce....maybe you married too early?
My wife and I are both in a position where we work long, hard hours. The thing is, we're both willing (and often do) drop whatever we're doing in an instant to help the other out--even if "help out" is nothing more than "just sit here with me for a while."
Marriage, done well, is hard work. Marriage, done well, is telling your wife to put her feet up and relax while you do the laundry or cook dinner--never mind that you're both exhausted from a long day's work and you'd really rather just play video games if you had the choice. Marriage, done well, is moving to a new city so that your spouse can pursue a promising new job. Marriage, done well, is near-constant attention, care, and dedication. That said, it's easily the most satisfying, fulfilling, entertaining and educational thing I've ever done, and I don't regret a second of it.
My grandfather-in-law had some sound advice on how to make a marriage work. He told me that marriage is a 90/10 proposition: each partner should expect to do 90% of the work themselves and only expect 10% from the other.
How much did you give your wife and family? How often did you ask your wife to wait until you were done doing whatever it was you were doing? How many times did you tell your wife not to bother cleaning the kitchen or bathroom and instead do it yourself? How many hours a day did you spend "free time" in front of the computer?
Do you genuinely believe that the fact that you write web pages played a significant role in the collapse of your own household?
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
I know some guys are going to mod me down. But here it goes.
Don't blame your industry. Don't blame your life. If you two don't want to get divorced, nothing can make you two divorced. It's completely you two's choice. The life in IT hard on marriage? It's just because you don't have the ability to make it work. There are so many others working in IT and have a happy marriage. You choose your work over your marriage. It can happen in any job and any industry. It's just your priority.
You may say the IT industry attracts more people who got your priority. Any industry that is well paid with long working hours attracts people who choose work over family. If you don't want your marriage fails, choose another industry that is suitable to you.
A sig is redundant.
It's sad, but we've reached a point where many statistics indicate that more than half of marriages will end in divorce.
Even sadder is blaming your job or the entire industry for being the cause of your failed marriage. With that kind of attitude towards your marriage, it was doomed from the start.
If you really cared about your marriage and your son and if you really thought your divorce was happening because of your industry, why did you make the choice to chose computers over a family?
It's not the job, it's the people that are attracted to it that are predisposed to divorce.
IT attracts loner types. Long IT hours and parental responsibilities leave married people with limited free time.
Loner types don't do well living with others, because it requires a sharing of space and marital responsibilities limit one's amount of alone time.
Why get married then? Because of social pressure.
>>I think our industry causes a high rate of divorce but I need some help from the Slashdot community.
And you are writing a thesis?
I've made a conscious decision to stay childless, partly because I haven't the time or money (or any prospect of them) to be able to bring them up properly. Having grown up in severe financial stress, with both parents working longer than full-time hours, I don't want the responsibility of bringing other people into the world to go through the same crap I did. I think it would be selfish of me to do that just to cover up my dissatisfaction with my own life...
I believe that this has nothing to do with IT, it has to do with addiction and time. This country works too much for it's own good, and that seems to be emphisised in IT jobs. My brother-in-law is a web developer and every other weekend he spends all 3 days at work because he has to update the site. This is hard on my sister (his wife), but she understands it's what he has to do. If he worked late every night and came home and sat on the computer (which most IT people do) it really begins to eat at the marriage. Addiction is addiction, whether it is work (IT), games, or anything else. Open a conversation with the people you interact with. Talk to your wife about what she needs for the marriage to work, and don't blame your job. If you want to work less hours, you can, find a way, move into a smaller house if you can't afford it. This country is in trouble though, since most familys have both parents working, and they still can't afford their bills. If we keep this up, this is going to get real bad. Why do you think there has been almost 10 kids at school with guns in the past 2 months? Both parents work. Don't blame IT for this. Anyone who works to much will have the same problem
Whether or not there is some sort of god, I'm not supposed to say/god is a word and the argument ends there-Smog
I entered the IT world professionally 1989. I married in 1990. Today, I'm still in IT and still married.
Fortunately for me, I work at a company that values family as much as profit, and so there was never any pressure to work long hours or weekends, so I was able to devote attention to my marriage - and because I was happy with my family, I think I was a better worker.
Of course, in that time, I've had coworkers who have divorced, but two of my closest coworkers have both been married at least as long as I. Can working in IT contribute to a divorce? Sure - if you let it; if your company forces you to let it. But I don't think that's unique to IT.
Grad school aside, one thing that seems to come up in the tech industry is long or unusual working hours. Grad school will only make this worse.
We all hear about start-ups and how insane some of the work hours can be there. It's do or die there; if you aren't willing to put the hours in you really shouldn't be there. Even in larger companies, a crunch period can take you away from your loved ones. Some will expect that you work ridiculous hours on a regular basis (I sometimes don't see my roommate for a few weeks).
Yes, we're in a field were there is a lot of money to be made. But we need to know that that money isn't worth it unless we can still have a life and pay attention to the more important things in life.
Other than that, how is a thesis on divorce related to IT? This sounds more like a psychology or some other non-tech study.
The company I used to work at had the following problems :
- Poor management
- Poor decision making
- Poor decision structures
- All this leading to overtime to correct errors
- Agressive IT restructuring while having power struggles between the IT managers
This kind of stuff leads to being unhappy, not having enought time for your family, friends and health. The bottom line is, what ever your job is, what ever the field is, you are responsible of your happiness and the happiness of the people around you : if the environment gets shitty, get out or risk loosing everything.
I will start off by saying that I am not married, have never been married and do not have any kids. With that in mind, I have recently began my career in IT consulting. On my first project with the company, I was working with a fairly large team, majority of which were married. I also noticed a lot of them from time to time were having trouble with their spouses that seemed to be related directly to the current project. This project was on it's tail end with deadlines looming, then passing with an extension, lather, rinse, repeat (I think we've all been there). Many a day, many, if not all of us were on the client site long after 5pm (my personal record is 2am) and even coming in on weekends. Many shared that their spouses were unhappy with their hours. The thing is though, that most of them did it to themselves. When the project manager said "we need this done by monday," most of them said, "OK, i'll just go cancel my flight home and work straight through the weekend." It wasn't very often that they said, "I understand the time constraints, but I need to spend the weekend with the family, is their any way this can be pushed." The funny thing is, when a bunch of us did try to push back on the boss, we were able to at least reach a compromise that gave us more personal time.
If you don't make an effort to keep your personal life, or make the time for family, you won't have the time for the family and the family will resent this. If you push back on your supervisors, most of the time they will try to work with you to come up with a solution that works for everyone (This is what makes good managers).
"It's not whether you win or lose, it's how drunk you get." -- H. J. Simpson
lets you have this topic as a thesis? What are you majoring in, sociology?
Your wife left you because you're an inconsiderate asshole and she thinks that she can do better. Looking at your "thesis" topic I'll go out on a limb and say that you're a self-absorbed dick with an inability to take responsibility for your own actions.
As a child that went through my parents divorce over 30 years ago, I can tell you that there is a long term impact on children, which you need to know about if you want to help your kid.
It's how you deal with your job.
Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
I simply can't understand workaholic types. I mean, come on people, it's JUST A JOB. Don't get me wrong, my job is important to me. I make good money. I like the work (most of the time). But I DO NOT work overtime unless "the barns buring down". Overtime is for emergencies, not because some jackass made promises his ass can't keep.
People who let EVERTHING go to hell because of their job are just sad.
I've been working IT since before we got married (loooong time ago) and we had to experience all the "good" stuff that comes with it (relocations, even across countries and continents), long hours (not too often though), weekend support calls, working from home, weeklong business trips, you name it. Fortunately she has been very understanding and never made a big deal out of it. And I was making up to her for it. We are divorced now (totally my fault, but job had nothing to do with it). We have a shared custody of our two kids and I probably spent as much time with them as she does (fortunately they are grown up and can take care of themselves if both parents are busy). It's not your job that ruins your marriage, it's you neglecting basic communications and not realizing that certain sacrifices by your partner need to be rewarded. Of course it does help to have a spouse who does understand that sometimes you have to take this support call or spend weekend fixing bugs.
That way you both would be on the same page. You can post your thoughts. Friendly mods will give mod points. And may be you will resolve differences amicably like other /.ters. You just look at our history. AAPL vs MSFT solved. IE vs FF solved. You are right in asking for advice here.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Oh Geez, you think IT is problem job? Try being a salesman on the road 50 weeks a year, or a field engineer rolling out a multi-year project in China, or even field technicians for Fortune 500's that do multi-year rollouts, construction (from engineers to dump truck drivers) the list is very long and IT is not even close to being the worst. Get over it, get your life in order, pick which is more important to you, your work or your kids.
Refusing to allow your job, in any field, to completely dominate your life is key. Too often people get so wrapped up in their job they make it the most important part of their life. The people close to them suffer as a result. A place I used to work at would treat fairly minor issues with the crisis level of an ER during the LA riots. I was stressed constantly, my partner didn't like being around me and was urging me to quit the job, my mental and physical health suffered. It was only after I said to myself "Hey, we make low end white sheets, why am I getting all worked up over this?" that everything suddenly got better. Moral of the story, unless you work in an ER, don't allow your employer to work you like you're an ER doctor.
http://www.CelloFourteGroupie.net
Is there nothing you can do to salvage your marraige?
Divorce is so common, in part because it is so easy, in part because people don't want to take responsibility for their actions, and also because marraige is work and our society has become a little bit lazy. Interestingly enough, Women file 2x as much as men do.
That doesn't mean it's their fault though. That could be because men cause most of the problems I don't know the basis of this statistic.
Still though, the reality is you can't blame it on anything other than you and her.
I found when I went through mine, that it was an introspective experience. I was heartbroken, but I was also awakened. I saw that I was basically sabotaging my marraige because I wasn't happy with it. I escaped into WoW, I spent any moment I could with anyone other than my exwife (I didn't cheat on her though). My real problem was that I didn't want to confront her on what she did to piss me off. I just let it build. When she left it was a great eye opener, and I tried valiantly to get her to give me one more shot but she wouldn't have it.
A few months later, After I was reborn in a psychological sort of way, I realized I never would have been happy with it anyway. Just as I realized that, she knocked on the door, but I wasn't there anymore. Since then, my wages have doubled, my vehicles are paid for, and I am debt free. I was fortunate in that I haven't had any children yet. I started to date again, and low and behold I found someone with visions that alligned with mine.
Simply put, divorce isn't about what you do 9-5, it's about what you do when you are off. Ask yourself "did you put her at the top of your list?" (most religions order it 1. God, 2. spouse, etc...)
Were you doing a fair share of the work? Marraige is work, no matter what the fairytale says.
(this is where I was very unhappy)
I wish you the best of luck, I know it was the hardest thing that I have ever gone through.
Spend time with family as often as you can, and just try and be a better person in general.
"The way your heart beats makes all the difference in learning to live" -Dream Theater
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
At some level, men understand this and it makes us less willing to commit, marry, have kids or be involved in childcare. Why put all the effort in if it can be snatched away? And that becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.
IT is probably a worse industry than others except high-travel. The bursty nature of projects makes for long hours, and it's hard for anyone to maintain a relationship under these conditions. It's actually worse on women. I don't think the technical nature matters much. What matters is "Being There".
As for my kids, I've found raising them very enjoyable and fulfilling. It was worth a horrible fight. When they were young s6/d4 it was hard being a single father. I knew they needed nurturing, and I had to work hard to provide it even though that isn't my natural inclination. Now that they are teeners s17/d15 I find it easier: Of course they rebel. They're expected and required to rebel. But I can deal with them on a "natural consequences" basis.
Ultimately, I agree with Hillary: It Takes a Village to Raise a Child." But half that village is male! I think many of our serious social ills are the result of insufficient fathering. Moynihan said it best: "If we encourage a father-absent society, how can it be other than "Lord of the Flies", writ large?"
I have the impression that web professionals have a difficult go of any relationship because the web culture is based on chaos: it's all about 80 hour weeks and IPO's out of nothing and is very high in the dramatics and stress.
This is why I prefer the Database world. All of the author's of my University DB texts seemed to be married 40+ years. This also seems to be the case in most departments I have worked. It's a different culture, based on order, structure, sane hours, professional respect and decent hours.
I'm the son of a man who's worked IT/EE/DOD for pretty much his entire life. He divorced my mother when I was six months old, and obtained full custody.
I'll guarantee being in the profession had NOTHING to do with it. When I turned 18 I went thru every document concerning the divorce (and a few old cassette tapes with my mother's adoptive father telling my dad to ditch my mother and take me somewhere else,) and I can easily conclude it wasn't due to him being in the profession, it was a matter of morality and family economics (what should've gone to diapers, food, etc. to me instead went to my mother partying every night and getting FUBAR'd.)
Now I will say that *YES* it's possible that working in the IT field, which is very demanding (sometimes requiring 30-hour shifts, from what my father's told me from his days at Texas Instruments,) will strain or destroy your relationship, mainly because your job keeps you away from your wife, or the job puts so much stress on you, that while you wish you could vent it at the job, you end up relieving it in unconstructive ways at home.
But it's a little unfair to place the blame squarely upon your job. Tell me, what did you try to keep the relationship working? She should've known that you would have long hours. Somehow, knowing how many relationships I've been in for the past ten years, not all of it is squarely the fault of the job, or even your girl (well, minus my three lying and stealing ex-fiancees,) but usually upon you. There are always exceptions, but most filed cases I've seen are the woman leaving the man, for infidelity, spousal abuse, drug usage, conflicting interests, etc.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
I'm a "Computer Dad" but *knock on wood* I haven't had to go through a divorce. But, I can certainly see how it could happen. The long hours on projects, the high stress levels on the job, short deadlines with big bucks on the line, the competative landscape, high employee turnover rates, and the need to constantly keep researching to stay up with the curve in order to keep your career going certainly don't help in keeping a personal relationship going on the side.
As I write I now find myself away from my family 70% of the time on business trips for my company simply because I have managed to stay in there through all the rough times in my career.
Yeah... I can see how being in IT could certainly provide a number of the conditions that would help to break up relationships.
My sympathies on the fact that you are going through a divorce, and (I assume) custody hearings.
I couldn't stand my wife...when I got home from work I went right down into the basement and taught myself HTML, Perl and Linux. Thanks to my desire to avoid my now ex-wife, I got pretty good at coding. Thanks I.T.!!!
A few lessons:
a. Your job, profession, work hours have nothing to do with it. It is the attitude that counts. If you or your spouse have a rotten attitude towards your relationship, you will find no excuses fit the bill.
b. Custody is a joke: if you pursue this you will go down a painful path; being a male suffer more in a climate that affords the female lots of benefit of the doubt and sticks males with unfair stereotypes; you will also lose tons of money for the aggravation;
c. If you drop your weapons before the legal masters and don't even pick up the Custody fight, you will dissapoint your legals and a lot of sympathetic onlookers, but you will save yourself a lot of aggravation; and in the end it won't matter either way;
d. Your care of the child is not affected by whether or not you have custody. In the long term, it matters zilch who had the custody. Suffering is a part of the game, you can suffer and take care of things or increase suffering for others (and yourself). Take care of yourself and do the best you can.
e. The sooner you accept your follies and the fait accompli without seeking scapegoats, the earlier you will recover; and that is the best thing you can do to your child(ren).
As a girl who has had a few long-term relationships with IT guys... it's not the job, it's the lack of attention, communication, and activity that has killed my relationships. Relationships require a great deal of maintenance to flourish, and if one (or both) partners spend all their time on the computer ignoring the other person, the relationship will fall apart. Look, if you never leave your computer to be with me... if I can strip in front of you and you still won't get off of the computer... sorry, it's just not going to work. Does that mean I'm leaving you because you code? Hell no... I like geeky guys. It's because you're ignoring me.
It's an addiction thing... if you are addicted to something, your relationships will fall apart. If there is a correlation between IT jobs and divorce, it wouldn't be because of the IT job. As eldavojon said above, it would be because of a confounding factor: being familiar with computers increases your chances of developing a computer related (internet/gaming/porn) addiction. Being with an addict is just plain miserable. Don't blame the job. Blame your actions -- did you spend time with her? Or were you on the computer all the time?
If you were to quit your job and go into another field, do you think that she'd stay with you? If not, look elsewhere. The problem lies deeper than your occupation.
Would it be safe to say that your former wife's next husband probably won't have a slashdot account?
Do you have ESP?
See him as much as you can and be their for him no matter what.. you lost the marriage don't lose the son because of work.
2.I believe my profession had a part in it.
It was your choice to walk down that path so yeah your right but your still walking aren't you!!!
3.For my graduate thesis I am writing a paper about Dads who work in the computer industry, divorce and custody.
Post it here so we can comment on our thoughts on it first!!!
4.I think our industry causes a high rate of divorce but I need some help from the Slashdot community.
I think being a pimp is up their too.
My questions are: How many of you computer Dads have also gone through divorce yep thats me!!!
and have retained either half or full custody of your children? just legal not half (i got F*****)
Do you think your job had something to do with it? NO it was all her wanting to party!!!
What were some of your hardest challenges and are your kids happy? Having to see her every time when i pick up my son. My son is not happy because he has to DEAL with two parents apart... we as a society is fuc*** and aren't educated to have a family environment by default. I'm not into the bible etc its more than a book can give i feel.
Stan M. ~~~Verbal~~~
The best gift you can give your child is a stable family. Many people try to buy the happiness for/of their children. Others try to be their best friend. If you really want to help your kid out. Give them security in an insecure world. Model for your kids that life and relationships can be hard, but at the end of the day Dad and Mom are commited to each other and them "the kid(s)". Most of us will, like it or not, end up similar to our parents. How you treat your spouse becomes the norm and comfortable for them. Notice I am not saying the right way or even healthy, only what they are used to and most likely to reproduce. Later in life, despite all of our best efforts, we tend towards the relationships we see modeled around us. Words of wisdom that others have shared. 1+1=1 or 100%+100%=100% When you are fully devoted to building up your spouse and they are fully committed to building you up will both of your needs be met. The struggle should not be on "how do I get my needs met". If we could do that than there would be no reason to get married! From the personal experience, grace can carry you a long way and only when you are both working together do you achieve real happiness. If you want to help your Child, give them security and good model for their future relationships. Never fail to tell them you love them. While you may not like some of the things they do, you should always love them. Final thought before I step down from my soap box: Love is choice, lust or desire are feelings!
I would wager his thesis is not on this post at all, but using the topic to measure our responses to said post.
Is that you ?
Votez ecolo : Chiez dans l'urne !
Yes indeed.
MOST women, almost ALL of them, in every nation of the world, have a tendency to see the universe around them as "part of their life".
Its mostly about their dreams, their needs, their wants, the things that they deem important, things they think should be done or should not.
It can be said to a degree that women live in "their-self" world, in which, the things in existence around are always seen as "part of" their inner world, self.
In short, its "me", not in an overly selfish way, in fact a rather childish perception, but "me" again.
Whereas men, because of the way our current civilization treats them, tends to understand the fact that there is a "me" and "the others" in the world, always. They are more aware that there are "other entitites" in the world, and they are apart from his self, and those other entities have their own agendas, feelings, plans, perceptions, and views.
A short example - a man would think thrice before getting outta the car and yelling at some other car's driver, even he is extremely pissed of - the other guy can be a karate-expert, can be a psycho, can be district attorney, and even indeed, might be right to a degree - world is never black & white.
Women on the other side, tend to behave like there are noone other than themselves while on traffic, even the traffic is an extension of their own selves' lives. Not somewhere filled with many other thinking and conscious entities, but a place they go to and back from work.
This perception varies with income, the social situation in different countries, with education, and (though there are VERY few women in this situation) with a more developed soul, but overall in all over the world, the same generalization applies.
This IT & computer thing is something that is closely tied to that matter.
You might be going to work, doing hell lot of things there that your wife does not want you to do, but, overall, its ok - because you are doing this labor for betterment of the life you are a part of - her life - the baby, the family, the social position, income, amenities and so on. You, are a part of her life. And when you come home, you HAVE to continue being a part of her life, you will deal with stuff, you will watch tv, you will attend kids, eat dinner, listen to this or that and be told that you need to do this or that - all ok. In general, in house, your attentions and your concentration is always on something that is directly related to your wife, or something that she wants you to concentrate on.
BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTT TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTtt
There is a VERY big difference if you are in IT, or you are into games.
Both computer games, and IT, are things that can totally get the concentration, creativity, and attention busy on them, your mind and social mind are totally busied and, what is more, satisfied, as their energy overage and desire to act on something is fulfilled.
But, as in the very big but, this process generally totally engulfs your concentration - you are at that point totally taken off of the "self" life of your wife, or the parts that take place in it, and carried away to abstract or "virtual" concepts and environments. At that moment, you are no longer part of her life, because you are not interacting with any part of her life, or doing any benefit or enjoyment to any part of it.
Just like cats get very annoyed with extreme attention you are paying the monitor and keyboard, and come and lay on the keyboard or mouse and try to take attention.
If this trent continues, your wife, will increasingly see you negligent, as you are not concentrating on things that she deems important. Increasingly will she distance herself from you, if the attempts to forcibly get your attention back to what she sees as important via fights, emotional blackmail, social conscience blackmail, fails. Then, the divorce.
Wo
Read radical news here
I think you have it backwards. You are the Dad, be the Father. Relationships and parenting take work (playing house lasts a few months at best). You can be a victim and blame something/anything for your misery OR you could be hero and do the right things for you and child (and I don't mean going back with your wife). You kid does not care if you are in IT, he/she cares for you as a person.
I would invite you to write something else than a victims thesis on "Dads who work in the computer industry, divorce and custody". How about "Why I can not be me in IT?" (here is a hint: it is not about the IT industry)
If you want to wake up, be man, a father, a spouse, get initiated, then write your thesis, I bet it will take on a whole new meaning.
And yes, I did have walked the walk.
HPC for Primates. Read Cluster Monkey
Try telling her that you only look at "those" websites because they have the best javascript.
...I'm only joking. Divorce is hard. Good luck.
"Seven years of college down the drain. Might as well join the f-ing Peace Corps." - John 'Bluto' Blutarsky
From yesterday's irish Times:
A dietician addressed a large audience, saying the following: "The material we put into our stomachs should have killed most of us sitting here, years ago. Red meat is awful. Soft drinks erode your stomach lining. Chinese food is loaded with monosodium glutamate. Vegetables can be disastrous, and none of us realises the long-term harm caused by the germs in our drinking water.
"But there is one thing that is the most dangerous of all and we all have, or will, eat it. Can anyone here tell me what food it is that causes the most grief and suffering for years after eating it?" An old man stood up and said: "Wedding cake."
Drill baby drill - on Mars
Also, I suspect that a job in IT has nothing really to do with your chances at getting a divorce, at least not directly.
As somebody said above, people who select a career in IT usually have low social skills, this is a well documented issue (and because it's not always true, the stereotype is also an issue).
Of course it's possible that somebody working huge hours could neglect their family, and that could set them on the road to divorce, so maybe you should look for a correlation between hours worked and divorce rate. Also of course, people with IT jobs, for which they can easily work long hours, and often do so from home, may have a tendency to absorb themselves in their work to hide from the fact that their relationship is crashing down around them. Some people console and absorb themselves in alcohol, some with their PC.
This topic my friend is not a Computer Science Graduate thesis topic . This should be a thesis done by a student in FAMILY AND CONSUMER SCIENCES or FAMILY STUDIES. Anyways, all the best in finding a job !!!!!!!!!!!!!.
I'm blaming Blizzard Entertainment's IT for my divorce. Damn that StarCraft! But seriously, I also work in the IT industry, am divorced and have shared custody of my son with my ex-wife. But as much as I might be tempted to blame my on-call rotation for diverting my attention from what should have been the most important things in life -- the failure in my marriage had nothing whatsoever to working in IT. Now if I had been working as a web developer for an adult web site, there might have been a stronger relationship between the divorce and my profession. I probably would have worked more from home too...at night...behind closed doors.
once they've split you can feel his wife for him too!
Reality is nothing but a collective hunch.
I have been married for a long time and I do IT. You have to make decisions in life. Do you want to put your family before work or your work before your family? The computer/internet easily allows for workaholism. Computers that require 24-7 on-call duty allow for workaholism. This is like saying, drinking alcohol causes divorce, because i drink alcohol in excess and I am getting a divorce. If you put alcohol before your family, then this will lead to division, alcohol itself is not necessarily the cause of division. In fact, in many cases it promotes comradery and relationships. It is the addictive/compulsive personality that takes this tool and uses it in a foul manner. Workaholism is also usually rationalized by "care" for the family. with statements like, "I am just trying to provide a 'Good' home for them" or "I really need to 'meet' their 'needs'." These workaholics usually have a driven personality. They want the accolades of the friends, neighbors and co-workers more than they want to spend time loving and nurturing their family. If i was doing a survey i would ask about income in relation to living expenses. If i make 80K/year i can support a 2 child family in South Orange County. I live in South Orange County CA. You may not have a 3 bedroom home that you own, but you can support the needs of your family. However, if you have a mortgage, 2 new luxury cars, eat out a lot, and are constantly spending, maxing out your CC's with wants and not needs, then you will need more like 200k/yr. What is more important? A BMW or time with your kids? If you didnt have time to spend relating to your family when you were married, what makes you think it will change when you get a divorce. Your priorities are Bass Ackwards and now you want custody of the kids so you can train them to be like you? If i was the court, i wouldnt give it to you. You dont even see the error of your ways. Reconcile your marriage, change your job. make some life changing decisions instead of looking for something to blame. It doesnt take a graduate thesis to see that.
If you're going to blame this on your career and you're asking slashdot. Why don't you lay out exactly why the relationship failed and then get her to post her side of it. It would be good input for your thesis. In the meantime, I'm going to make some popcorn.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
is generally the funnier way to put it.
I feel that my line of work highly exacerbated issues in my marriage that would not have otherwise ended in divorce. I don't "blame" my job - I like what I do; however, the 'dot bomb' and 'outsourcing' effected my ability to provide for my family for a certain period of time. My x-wife was highly traumatized by this; to this day she says that I never provided for her and my step son and that I did not work - when in fact I was unemployed a total of 18 months in a 12 year period, and during many of those months I made money consulting. Clearly the amount of 'change' that goes on in the technology field did not allow my x-wife to feel secure with my ability to provide and I am certain that this was the instantiation of the failure of an otherwise good relationship. I have to be honest, I am getting to the point that I am no longer willing to trade my "happiness" for the financial rewards that this field of work has provided for me. I lost a somebody very important to me. and while I believe everything happens for a reason and I have since fallen in love with somebody new, somebody who brings me happiness I did ever expect to find in my life - somebody I am not willing to sacrifice on the altar of my job. I know many other consultants that are on their 3rd relationship/wife as well. I have to tell you that the travel is really difficult on a relationship as well. I swore I would never be one of 'those' guys - and now I am one. Go figure.
NICE POST!
Obligatory "If I had mod points..."
Two very good points.
My old CS program made us take a few comunications classes so that we could be successful when dealing with people as well as computers. (it was more of a relationship course though... 8')
Secondly Corelation is != to cause.
person 1 plays ut
person 2 plays quake
Person 2 shot up a highschool
Therefore that means that person who plays quake shoots highschools.
I think not.
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
You just don't want to admit that your neighbor Jerry the auto-mechanic is banging your wife, & they are running around your house, wearing your underwear on their heads & laughing about your shortcomings.
Now... back to CounterStrike...
Relax... You're soaking in it." -Madge
Asking slashdot readers this question is like hiring the captain of the Titanic to head up your water safety program.
How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
Here are the wonderful gems of advice from the wonderful posters who don't know anything about you or your marriage but decided that they know enough to advise you on your current situation. do some soul searching don't put your children second don't put your spouse second work no more than 45 hrs/week don't watch pr0n or play Warcraft you're just plain SOL because you have poor social skills you whine too much As for me, I have no advice, but in regards to your post I'd say that working a lot of extra hours can make your spouse feel unloved and unwanted. Letting them know that they are loved and finding time to prove it of the utmost importance.
Ever since I wrote my first line of code, I seem to find less days sober or proper sleeping nights.
All jest aside, I comiserate. Multiple attempts at starting my own firm, working with other firms or consulting all took tons of time. I think this to be true in any profession though. Any time you strive for higher income, higher requirements are set of you (although, somehow the highest paid people I know or know of don't seem to work - I'll keep on researching that and will let /. know if anything else is conclusive).
BUT (here it is... along the lines of "I can implemenent that, but you'll need to fulfill this hardware specification"), here is the catch: any relationship is also work. The rewards are different.
Maybe you need to revisit this once you are able to juggle an IT job and retain a successful relationship, where both you and your partner (and potential offspring) are content.
Again, it's work.
I'm not a dad, but I've been happily married for 23 years, while in the IT industry for 20.
I personally feel the fact I'm NOT a dad contributed to the happy marriage, but that's just me. YMMV.
Their input is considered irrelevant, apparently.
(I'm married, happily, with no kids yet.)
The #1 reason for divorce has to be overwork. Anyone who's been in the IT world long enough, unless they're very lucky, has worked in one or more jobs that have lousy working hours. Either you're on call 24/7, or projects you're working on are in constant crunch mode. Plus, they never seem to hire enough people to get the volume of work done at the speed they want. If I were a spouse, especially if I had never worked in a job like this, I would probably be pissed after a while. If the other partner isn't available to help with the house stuff, raise the kids, etc. then I don't blame them for divorce.
It's not just IT, but IT jobs tend to require long hours. I've promised myself that I'm going to keep a sane home life, even if I have to accept a lower rate of pay. Here's a wierd example: the company I work at tends to pay on the average side for IT work. Especially on the lowest rung, people could do a lot better somewhere else. This is especially true for our area...banks, brokerages, entertainment companies and law firms routinely pay very high IT salaries. The only problem is that you usually also sign up for the long work hours and lousy work conditions. However, their higher pay means that we have a harder time attracting talent. The flip side is that most of us work a very reasonable schedule.
If you want a non-IT example, just fly on a US airline on a Monday or Friday. You'll see young, unattached consultants who don't mind doing long hours because they've got nothing to come home to. You'll also see overworked executive types who look miserable and haven't seen their families all week. I can't imagine their spouses are all too happy. Just look around at the guy/girl with the discheveled look, loosened tie, and pissed-off expression.
The #2 reason for divorces, I think, tends to be social. I really think a lot of people just fall into marriage, even if they can't stand each other on the inside. Also, it sounds like stereotyping, but the truly great IT people tend to have social problems. It may sound unfair, but our profession is attractive to introverts the same way sales is attractive to extroverts. Some problems are mild (inappropriate humor, difficulty in social situations) and some severe (total withdrawal into work or hobbies, addiction to stuff like Warcraft.) When you pair a geek with a non-geek, you're going to have problems. IT people like to talk about their work too much; I've had to consciously avoid this at home. Even though the wife is smart (works in a different field of geekery,) she could care less about the minutae of my work.
Think of this example. I worked with a guy a few years ago who wound up getting divorced. He was a computer geek, and she obviously wasn't super-bright. I'd overhear phone conversations where she'd ask him questions, and he'd yell at her for not knowing how to handle whatever it was. Whenever he'd get off the phone, I'd hear, "She's so f**king stupid!" Talk about the exact not-right thing to say to someone.
IT professionals are special.
Just like everybody else.
-rick
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Has anyone seen credible research that shows IT people work longer hours than non-IT people? I would readily believe that people who work for systems integrators, etc., work longer hours, but I think that's true of all consulting, whether it's IT or something else. I've worked in consulting for business strategy, for financial services and for IT services, and the hours seemed pretty similar to me. I've also worked in corporate IT as well as other corporate departments, and the corporate hours (IT or otherwise) also seemed pretty similar to me -- and a lot lower than the hours in consulting. In-house lawyers don't bill the same kinds of hours as attorneys at corporate law firms, as another example.
Admittedly, this is without much real evidence (which doesn't seem to have bothered the hundreds of prior posters), but maybe the organizational environment is a much bigger factor than IT.
Oh. And a lot of that other, non-work stuff.
you were married at any point in your life?
frank_tudor says:
I am graduate student
I work as a web developer
I am married
I have a child
That's his problem right there.
Choose three.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
make sure you don't equate a symptom with causality. For instance, even if you do discover there is a higher rate of divorce in IT, it doesn't mean the job did it. It could be that the right applicant for the job leads to a skewed population, of which certain traits leave them prone towards divorce.
What were some of your hardest challenges and are your kids happy?
Is my kid happy? He's a teenager. Of course he's not happy. ; )
My ex and I divorced when our son was three. He's very happy and well-adjusted. Of course, his mother and I have tried to maintain an amicable relationship since our divorce. That probably helped quite a bit.
I'm reasonably certain your job in IT isn't the sole reason for your divorce, sorry to say. It might have played a minor role, though. Regardless, at least in my situtaion I don't have to worry about that. When I remarried, I married a geek girl! While they are a rare breed, geek girls can be found in the wild.
Actually. That raises a poll within a poll in my mind. Are other IT geek slahdotters married to IT geeks as well? If so, what's been your experience? A lot of women would get upset with all the geekiness I get into (My last GF sure did. Yikes!), by my wife understands and takes an interest. I think it's also been very good that we can talk about our jobs and totally understand each other. We even help each other out with tech support. I feel sorry, though, for the people at the tables next to us in restaurants. If they catch any of our conversations, they have to be scared. ; )
SiO2
being an introverted control freak does, however.
...but was certainly not the only factor in my divorce. That probably goes without saying, but it might be helpful to those mocking to understand and take note of other's experiences. If one doesn't know how to leave the stressors at the keyboard, (and anyone that's been working in I.T. long enough for at least a few different employers), knows that stressors are many, unique, often beyond your control. Come to think of it, probably one of the most critical professional development classes someone in I.T. should be required to take is stress and/or anger management. Exercise helps, or if that's is not for you, learn to drink responsibly and buy a bus pass.
.NET guru because their resume says "software engineer," runs rampant at the executive level. Or perhaps your project got reassigned overnight by the Business Development group after they cut a new marketing relationship with M$ yesterday to "save a ton of money" (swampland in S. Florida anyone?)
I can't count the unrealistic projects I've been assigned to and had employment tied to their delivery. Often times that implies its necessary to bring work home, pounding keys into the wee hours of morning, heading back to the cubicle at the crack of dawn. How many projects have the wrong developers (wrong skillset), incompetent managers lacking foresite or essential knowledge, lack of hardware for development (including versioning), testing and deployment, unrealistic delivery schedules? How many projects are underfunded? How many contract system integrators are stuck between two or more vendors unwilling to disclose integration aspects of their application interfaces?
Ever worked on a project where the employer just bought every RUP product ever made, no clue how to use any of them, demanding every document/diagram in the RUP arsenal goes through three revisions before coding a line? Maybe the manager (i.e., recently demoted executive, marketing 'genius' brought in from some other industry) sold management that HIS whip would be the most effective at motivating skeleton crew of Serenity-type misfits to pound out some pie-in-the-sky?
Finally, the economy of late, in particular for software developers, (at least in the western hemisphere), hasn't really been ideal to allow us each to shop for the perfect fit/employer. The notion that a Perl scripter can somehow transform themselves overnight into the a
There are so many stressors. You HAVE to learn to leave the problems at the keyboard IN YOUR CUBE. If you chose to sit at a keyboard when not at work, that's your time to kill some monsters, cast a spell, download some pr0n, yada. I don't give a shit whether they just bought you a new Dell XPS laptop or not (wise to not download the pr0n there)! They're gonna make you give it back.
Ultimately, my unavailability to my family lead to the stressors in my relationship and ultimately to my marriages' demise. Anyone choosing to mock this reality, call me when you need a good divorce attorney. Plan on it costing you at least a years salary just to pay them, but don't plan on walking away with your house, since the courts will see your "earning potential" overshadows that of your partner's.
There was 19 years difference in our ages (I'm younger), and we were always at different places in our careers; we met in 1985 when I was 22 and still in college. Making a deliberate choice to always put the relationship first and deciding then and there to stick by that choice, made things a lot clearer down the road.
As for work, we always supported each other and I helped her with school work as much as I could -- creating forms, flyers, databases... I understood when she had to sometimes grade papers all weekend and she understood when I got paged at 10pm and had to work all night.
You can always find another job, but the love of your life comes around only once. Though we didn't have children, I would include them in this sentiment if we had.
Unless there's something wrong with or abusive about one or both, I believe that people stay together because they want to. People come up with various excuses like "we drifted apart", "I wanted something different", etc... but I believe it comes back to not wanting and/or caring enough to work things out and stay together.
Remember Sue...
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
You always have control over your life. If you wanted to work less hours, you could've told the boss to sit on it or go to another job. I don't think you prioritized things correctly. When it comes to morals, I strongly believe to each his own, so I'm not going to tell you should put your marriage frist or shouldn't. but if you're wondering if your job is related to you getting a divorce, I'd have to say that if you really wanted to save your marriage, you would've put the time into it.
Maybe she left you because you wouldn't stand up and say "no, I'm not working 5-9 instead of 9-5". I'm not some dumbass macho-type, but at the same time, you gotta stick up for your own. Some things are more important than ass-kissing and making a boatload of money.
You're mistaken. Just look at the law industry, rates are 10x higher...
I can certainly blame my career for problems I've had with my wife, but that makes it a little too easy doesn't it? In the end, every aspect of my career that has affected my home life is the result of a decision I've made. Most of those decisions could be changed on a day in and day out basis. I would think that most IT guys have enough of a logical mindset to understand that jobs don't hurt marriages, people do.
As far as kids and custody goes, I don't really have any info to comment with. The people in my social circle that are divorced don't have kids.
But as far as kids and happiness through divorce goes - rare is the situation where a child is happy once their parents are divorced. The child can move on and grow up to live a normal life, but there will be permanent mental scarring and more than likely some personality quirks to go with it.
Before getting divorced you really have to ask yourself - Is this so important that I should permanently scar my children? Is this so important that I should risk losing my children? There are scenarios that exist where the right answer is yes. There are many more where the right answer is no.
I work as the alpha IT geek in a female-heavy office. The women are always appreciative and thankful when I fix their systems and software problems.
Then trouble sets in.
Because of female nurturing tendencies, they feel guilty that I'm always helping them, and they're not doing anything for me. Everyone knows I'm commuting and don't get a lot of home cooking when I'm on site.
"Would you like to join my friends and I for dinner?"
"Yes, of course."
One thing leads to another. One day my wife does a surprise visit to my commuter pad in Vancouver and finds the entire bedroom filled with shaving cream, riding crops, toys with knobs and bumps in improbable places, an administrative assistant and a data analyst.
I'm not sure which made her more upset. My infidelity, or the fact that the place is a disaster and she KNOWS it won't get cleaned up unless she does it.
I am now divorced and lost a beautifully restored turn-of-the-century house in Seattle and the chance to see my two children growing up. I manage to barely function at my job while I go to my dark and dirty commuter pad and huff lighter fluid every night. Worse, I get daggers from the AA and the DA every time I walk the halls.
OK. That was pretty silly. The reality is more succinct.
Keeping a relationship together requires time with your spouse. It is very easy to get sucked into work, come home late, and let home stuff slide.
One part of that cock-and-bull story is true: I do commute. However little time you spent with your spouse, I spend less. I promise. The secret is to structure your time. When I'm home, that time is spent with family doing family-related stuff. Not that we don't go shopping or do projects or whatnot, but you keep everyone involved and make sure you're spending time together. If you go to the back room, blob out, and play WoW by yourself, you are doomed.
Another important thing is if you are really going nuts at work, set a time limit on how long that's going to happen. Say "All right. The product ships 1st December. 1st of January, we're going to close it down and spend two weeks in Italy," (You don't have to go to Italy if you don't want to. Go to Vegas. It's all good). This way, if your spouse is feeling alone or neglected, he/she can say "This too will pass. Five more months, and we'll have a normal life." Having an endpoint his helpful and gets you through points where you might otherwise despair.
Finally, if you find you'd rather be at work than with your spouse, there are some other issues going on. At that point, I'd advise either some really serious soul-searching or professional help.
I don't see that IT works people harder than other groups in general. If your specific department worked you very hard or if you are a workaholic and either way did not spend the time that you needed too with your family and that led to your divorce, that is your problem. I am sure the warning signs were there long ago, you should have stopped working so much, found another job or whatever. In any case, IT did not cause your problems.
They want their prince charming to bring them money so they can spend, but in order to earn, you have to work.
Ladies, you can't have your cake and eat it at the same time, so if what you want is a warm body, get yourself a gigolo. But just make sure he's out of the way when hubby comes home and wants to pork you or wants a blowjob, and, by all means, give him the blowjob. After all, he's the one who pays the bills.
I'm in IT. So far my wife and I have been married for 21 years and I've been with the same girl for 23 years. The trick is you've got to set your priorities. Remember 1:family 2:health 3:job. Do the laundry every now and then, load and unload the dishwasher every now and then, fire up the grill and cook supper every now and then. It has it's paybacks! BTW, I was 22 years old when I got married.
What I understand better now than before:
* Be honest
* Be present
* Be connected
* Get out early, if that's what needs to happen.
I'm just going through a divorce and have an 18th month old son.
Although originally from England, I now live in the US. Unlike Europe where they're used to the idea of 50/50, at least here in Arizona if you're male the system is against you.
According to my attorney, You have no chance of getting 50/50 actual time with your kids if they're younger than about 5 no matter how good a father you've been.
The other big difference between Europe and US that is also a factor in divorces, is that most US companies treat developers like they own your life. Companies here in the US seem to think its fair to expect/demand developers to work ongoing 60 hours+ weeks but not pay for that time, just by saying you're salaried. If you only want to do the hours a week that your terms of employment state then the majority of comapnies here think you're a bad employee. That really screws up your family life too.
My wife's ex-husband is in IT and after reading your thesis idea, I now think that the fact that he works in IT was the real reason they got divorced. She claims that it was because he's an alcoholic, a drug addict, had become abusive, had at least 10 affairs that she now knows about, sexually assaulted a teenage girl and was in general a huge SOB. But your probably right that the fact that he works in IT was a big part of their marriage falling apart.
I currently work as a SysAdmin. The job is a good distance from my home, like upwards of two hours. When I applied for the job, the main goal was to be able to move closer to family and friends and the job. I have been working for this company for about a month and during that time I have been staying at my parents house with my 3 month old son Tuesday through Thursday nights and going home on weekends and Monday nights. After reading all of this, my outlook has completely changed. My wife and I had an argument last night about a subject that is directly related to the situation that we are in. She states that I am unable to finish projects that I start around the house because of my previous schedule and our current living situation. I know that it is because I am a bum when I get home and just want to relax, but I also know that if I don't take action I could lose my wife. Children change the equation significantly in a marriage and life in general. My son is my life, second only to my wife. It is for him that I took this job, to be able to provide better for both he and his mother. It is tough to balance the time away and time together in the current situation, but it is an extremely important part of life. Just because you can't balance things out and get along on your wife, you can't blame that on your profession, no matter how much you want to.
.. blaming your job for your marriage falling apart is like saying you leg fell off because your pants were blue.
... you know the rest.
I married rather young (22), have been addicted to all things geekly since a kid and have ruined many friendships from this. I have a tendency to get attached to all the blinking lights, the hum, etc, to get obsessed over the latest thing to pass my way (gadgets, TV shows, music, etc), and there have been various points in my life when my addicted & sociopathic tendencies almost ruined my life. I'm just lucky to be married to a wonderful woman who knows there's good in there somewhere and has been willing to fight through it for eight years.
Three years ago we had our first child and in march we're expecting our second, and right now I'm working 9-6 and have a side job to pay off our quite massive quantity of debt (a good deal of which is there because of said addiction). Needless to say this has been difficult few months but we're trying to work through it, to as much time together as we can around the work.
Working so much means that you miss out on the only thing in life that means a damn: the person who at one point in time believed that you were a good enough friend, confidant, play mate, lover, etc, to want to spend the rest of their life with. My wife has put up with a lot over the years and at times I wonder why she sticks with me, but if it were to fall apart I'd have no misunderstanding that it was *me* who caused the problems.
As for putting the children first: horsecrap. Children first and foremost need a stable family to grow up in, if the parents/couple are always arguing, or if one is never there, etc, then there's no stability for them to feel safe with. So put the children second, they need to see you and your spouse enjoying each other's company, being loving with each other.
You see, it takes two to tango, and if one is "too busy" then
To this day she still whines that 50/50 gives me too much contact with my son and how she doesn't get to spend enough time with him. She's taken me to court 4 times in 6 years. All she has to show for it is a conviction for criminal contempt of court. She blaims me for that too.
No it wasn't IT's fault. Divorce is a people problem.
I've worked in IT since 1993. I got married in 1999, and it has been a real tough job keeping the marriage going good. We have no children, and aren't sure if we ever will. As others have said, you must work at it constantly. Communication is the key.
/. are. Do any of you remember what it was like to see your parents go through it and all of the other "fun stuff" that children of divorce must deal with. The affects of divorce on children cause many of our society's current social ills.
Both my wife and I are children of divorce, as I'm sure many on
We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
Basically it is imune to ISTD's, clears cache upon exit/alt-tab or custom hotkey, erases history upon exit/alt-tab or custom hotkey, clears completed forms exit/alt-tab or custom hotkey ...
it's sweet, want a copy? only 25k!
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
I really doubt your profession had anything to do with it. It may not be time to give up yet, though, Frank. If you are interested, there is lots of scientific research about how to make a happy marriage or long term relationship. If you want to geek out on the topic of divorce, geek out by looking into how to avoid them -- possibly this one, definitely any future ones. If you have a kid with this woman, you can't really divorce her anyway. You can divorce her legally, but your kid will always force you to have interaction with her, consider her when making major life decisions, and so on. You can begin the geeking out by listening to the 3/26/04 episode of This American Life. http://www.thisamericanlife.org/ You might also check out the book Divorce Busters by Michelle Weiner Davis, which is based on many of the ideas that reasearcher talked about, and actually saved the marriage of a couple I know -- the gentleman had already moved out in this case. They've been back together for a couple of years now. (That book is actually good for anyone -- even if you're not on the brink of divorce, and even if you're not actually allowed by the stupid government to get legally married. I wish it had a less scary title so I could give copies to people as a wedding/commitment ceremony gift.) Good luck, Frank.
While the OP should really be seeking a professional to talk to, I can't imagine tactless responses like "You dumb f#$!, it's your own d!@# fault," are too helpful to him at all. The man asked for constructive criticism and thoughtful responses, and the majority of what he got was outright bashing.
I usually respect what people have to say here on Slashdot. But DAMN, people. I'm ashamed to even post among you people today. If you can't say something nice to a person who's world is being torn apart, shut the hell up. The man needs helpful advice, not criticism.
I used to work too much, then my wife (non-techie) was forced to get a blackberry. Before, she worked 7-8 hours a day. Now she works 24 hours a day. So, she got a few raises, but she works at least twice as much. I call that a massive pay cut.
Seriously, my wife's behavior with the blackberry has made me change so I don't work at all at home anymore, and I bitch at her all the time about not being able to separate her work from our personal lives.
I've actually suggested marriage counseling to help us deal with her blackberry.
Someday, I'm going to smash that F'ing blackberry with a sledgehammer.
NOTE TO GEEKS: Turn off your f'ing blackberry and pay attention to your family!
How many of you computer Dads have also gone through divorce and have retained either half or full custody of your children?
Not me. The woman "typically" and "traditionally" (euphemisms for reverse sexism) gets custody. If she doesn't agree to share, you get to litigate the arrangement. On your dime, of course. I've known a dozen or so fathers who spent years doing just that, and ended up with an acrimonious state of affairs and token visitation rights the nature and timing of which were repeatedly subject to the varying whims of the mother), and incurred debt in the low to mid six figures.
I opted to pass on the custody fight as I had lost the child support battle and already owed an amount in the low six figures that I couldn't afford. I wasn't about to put the kids through a custody fight.
Do you think your job had something to do with it?
It usually does, but the nature of the job is irrelevant. I'm a guy. Most any guy (unless he's a florist) is susceptible to the notion that his job (obligation) is to work hard and provide for the wifey and kids. That single minded devotion applies to someone trying to write the next best seller, a business man trying to make money or gain power, or a lowly programmer. I was brought up that way, but the instinct goes deeper than one's culture or upbringing.
The female of the species, on the other hand, may be impressed by ambition, money or success during the courtship ritual, but soon dismisses such attributes in her mate. She expects and demands his time and his attention. If he's killing himself to make lots of money to buy the big house, build for the future, yada yada, he shouldn't expect thanks, gratitude or even recognition, but should instead expect a growing resentment over time and effort spent elsewhere.
You can't have it both ways. That's one fact of life that applies equally to both sexes. Once upon a time it was possible, perhaps, but today people divorce readily.
What were some of your hardest challenges and are your kids happy?
The hardest challenge for me was regaining my faith in humankind. Women have an amazing talent for evil behaviour. And the kids? They resent me. I wasn't there for them, was I?
I work in the I.T. business also and so did my now ex wife. We have a 8 yrs old daughter and she a 13 yrs old son. When we first got together she wasn't in the industry and when she approached me on the opportunity to do so as a consultant I warned her that this was not a family oriented business. I worked an enormous amount of hours and when she started her new job she was traveling some but the time away began to grow and eventually took a toll on our marriage. My opinion is that it might not be the industry that led to your breakup but the management principles in place at your job. High stress and long hours certainly exist at a number of I.T. shops but I believe that they are found in other industries also. I hope I'm wrong in saying this but it would be more correct to say that the culture of the I.T. business seems to thrive on the long hours and stress as a kind of 'badge of courage'. I wonder what the overall divorce rate is in our industry and how it correlates to other industries that are also high stress. Maybe like an air traffic controller or police man, or now days a soldier.
The government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving,
"Whatever you are doing, it is not more important than your family," that is what my reminder to go home says. Sometimes, we all need a reminder. If your employer does not agree, fuck 'em!
The real silver bullet to good programs is caffeine; lots and lots of caffeine! *twitch, twitch*
I've been in IT for 20 something years now, and have one divorce to my credit. After that divorce, however, I found out that it was pretty much all my fault. A friend suggested I get some advice from www.DocLove.com and www.askmen.com/dating/doclove. I actually paid $99 for his book (when you can easily buy it used on eBay for half that price, or less) and it made a huge difference in my life.
:(
Before reading his book, I was pretty much a man with no standards, no self respect, no self control, and was, in a word, boring. I thought the mark of a good relationship was avoiding fights, when in fact the mark is being able to effectively deal with the underlying problems that cause fights.
Now nearly 8 years later I am engaged to the most wonderful, honest, loyal, flexible, and plain *fun* woman I have ever met. I've even started giving advice to friends, who keep trying to convince me to start a business around giving guys advice.
My view is quite simply most men have the relationship skills of a 12 year old. They treat their wives/women like their mothers, and expect her to take care of them. Fact of the matter is that you have to be somewhat of a leader, a decision maker, and you have to provide your wife and family with quality time. "Quality" being the keyword there, not so much "time" as so many men would like to think. I am always amazed to hear of guys who spend 8 hours working, then 4-6 hours playing computer games or surfing the 'net when they get home, and then they wonder why their woman left them.
Likely, in my opinion, if your woman cheats or leaves, it was because of something you lacked. The *trick* is to LEARN FROM YOUR MISTAKES, something so few men do.
I do give out advice on a forum nowadays, but I'll be hard pressed to get slashdotted!
If I had mod points.... + insightful
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
Are a coward!
Divorce when only the man and woman are involved is OK...No harm no foul. You involve a child in that marriage -- and then choose divorce on the grounds that "you work to much at your job" is a stupid excuse. (How will things be better for your child when you are divorced and spend time with him even less?)
You are not only divorcing your wife -- you are divorcing your child to. Don't try to spin it and blame it on your job. Money is king -- if you were working 30 hrs. a week for minimum wage turning burgers would your marriage be better? I don't think so....
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
"True" love in high school. We were both going to do college and then have kids.
She took one semester- said "THIS SUCKS" and went to work full time.
When I was three years into college she decided, "We need kids now. You need to quit college and work two or three jobs like my brother-inlaw does for my sister." Then she unilaterally decided to have kid (Found that out years later in a tearful confession).
Was she a bad person- really probably no worse than average.
Were we both STUPID for getting married so young? YES.
College takes a LOT of work and is completely unforgiving. If you miss a test- that's it, change schools or just quit because otherwise that is going to be on your GPA 11 years later. If you truly understand that, you can see the conflict when you are studying and she throws a hissy fit because you are not paying attention to her. You get fired from a job- who cares, you can get another one. You fail a course- you are screwed. Maybe so badly that there is no point in getting the degree any more.
We finally broke up after 10 years together (8 married). She waited about 30 days into the separation period before she started cutting a path through our male friends (which pissed me off back then- but hell these days I figure why lose a good friend over a woman).
Now-- how about those "working 60 hours a week" guys?
Okay- 10% of them do get ahead. The rest get NADA, BUPKIS, ZERO.
It took me about 8 years longer, but I had 20 hours a week more life during those 8 years.
Having a wife tho? Under today's legal setup (welcome to divorce land- you are screwed guys- enjoy paying the mortgage for her and the new boyfriend who thinks it's okay to spank your kids) I personally won't be going that route. I have my own house, no debt, new car, nice clothes. I have several girlfriends (one for concerts, one for gaming, one for dancing, etc.). It works out great for me; they are happy (I'm open about being a bachelor up front which helps) and I don't have to turn the stereo down or clean house when I don't want to. Plus when I lose one or two (as happened in 2002) then I'm not devastated and I just load up a couple more. I personally do not think people were meant to stay together forever any more. I'm not sure people were meant to invest *EVERYTHING* into one single other person. You always have to give *something* up (this one goes to bed at 9pm- that one doesn't drink- this one doesn't like gaming- that one doesn't like going out dancing, etc.)
Plus- in my opinion, when you give so much incentive to women to divorce- they are a lot less likely to stay married until the kids are 18. Basically, if you have a good income and kids: they win, you lose. The courts even go so far as to make men pay for kids that do not exist for years and unless you have a super lawyer you get to see the kids six days a month and every other christmas.
---
Basic advice- if you want kids and to be married- at least wait until you are 25 to 27. And yea- don't work 60 hours a week. It's really stupid. Most women won't disconnect emotionally if you pay them any attention at all. Even 3-4 hours a week they can count on will fulfil their needs. But randomly coming home late, skipping important holidays, only touching or kissing them when you want sex, you are asking for the street.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
I got divorced to my first wife after a 4 year marriage with 2 kids. I got full custody of both. The custody part has to do with my ex-wife being such a looser. I got married to her when I was 19 and my oldest child, who will be 10 this month, was 7 months old. I got my start in IT right about the time she was born. The first 4 years of my career weren't bad due to my work, but directly as a result of who I married. She more or less kept me from growing in my field. The interesting time was really between marriages, when I was commuting 75 miles away and raising 2 kids on my own. If it wasn't for my parents helping out so much, I have no idea how I could have made it really. I couldn't read all the comments that were posted, but most that I did sound like people who don't know cause they've never been there. IT is demanding as hell, especially if you're like me and never finished college and worked your way up the latter. Spent the first 3 or 4 years doing system support stuff and worked up to doing system administration and finally have spent the last 5+ years doing development, which is the best part in my opinion. The point is, you got to take care of your family first, whether that's your wife and kids or just your kids. Part of taking care of them is working and providing, so you have to work, and sometimes that means working your butt off. You have to find balance and the best thing I think I ever did was surround myself with people who understand. I had a couple of bosses that were never married and never had kids and those experiences were bad for me, cause they didn't understand not being able to work until midnight and having to leave to get your kids from the after-school program. I hope everything works out for you. It did for me. I've remarried, and to a remarkable woman and we have a child together now. She's been giving enough that my career has been able to blossom as well as provided the kind of mother all my children deserve. Good luck and keep praying (or start if you need to :)).
Your wife is an asshole. That's the moral.
The way I look at it is this. Either you are flying signals ("I'm single! I'm looking! I'm available! Look at me!") or you are not. I'm going to bet that your wife was flying signals. If you look back at her behavior totally objectively, you'll probably see it. If you do, internalize this fact -- she was looking to get out.
The best advice I can offer you is from my own experience.
1) Don't hang around. She says she still loves you? Bullshit. She doesn't. She's not even THINKING about you. Move on.
2) Don't believe her if she comes back. She says she wants to try again? She says she wants to "Renew your vows" (that's a rich one)? Move on.
3) Don't let her set your agenda. Guilt trip about "staying with the kids while she goes away?" Sure, if you want to. If you don't, tell her to drop them off at your place, you'll deal with them.
And don't -- absolutely don't -- let yourself be angry, bitter, unhappy. This is not your fault. It's not about your job or how many hours you put in. It's not that you didn't "work hard enough" at the relationship. Baloney. I know plenty of people who have ridiculous schedules and see each other rarely, but they're doing just fine.
Remember: it's about her wanting to leave. It's not about you "failing" in some respect. Dry your eyes, forget your guilt, and find someone who wants to be with you. And if you notice her "flying signals," put her on the "temporary fling" list and start flying your own signals, fast.
but my wife and I splitting up had nothing to do with either of our careers. I raised my son alone for 6 years until I remarried. I honestly can't imagine working in IT has any affect on parenting or being a good spouse.
My best advice is to conduct yourself in an honourable manner. It is best for your kids, and you will salvage some self respect. This is very difficult to achieve once lawyers are involved. My second advice is to watch and conserve every dime you spend until everything is settled. Divorce is the #1 cause of bankruptcy for men.
I have shared custody and shared parenting - meaning I have my two kids half the time. Despite being in IT, I have pretty reasonable work hours. Working more than 40 hours a week is a waste of time anyway. Work smarter, not longer.
You will have to be both Mom and Dad to your kids when they are with you. My kids don't know what the word divorce means or that mom and dad living in different houses is not normal. My kids have a rich life at both houses, with their favourite stuff in both places. They are happy, so I am happy.
Unfortunately, family law is systemically biased against the person who has the better job (typically the man). You can expect this to cost you a lot of cash. Depending on your jurisdiction, your pension valuation may be a nightmare. Not much you can do about it - if divorce was not your choice you are a victim. Make the most of it.
Your thesis is flawed from the onset. Maybe you can poll the readers and see what you get. Ask generic questions, record the available answers and then try to draw conclusions. You're leading us towards your own conclusion. A good neutral set of questions would start with:
Age:
Occupation:
Level of education:
Married (Y/N) If Y, years married:
Divorced?:
# Children:
Then compare your results from an established, well documented, rock solid source (census? Support group for divorced people?) and see if you can make any conclusions.
Otherwise, your sample set is flawed from the start. As is, it'll either:
1. Greatly extended your graduate time, as you now have some more pre-req work to do, or:
2. Greatly shorten it, as the staff may not choose to waste any more time on you.
I got the 0's
I'm not divorced but that was the agreement we had when we got married.
We are both IT and it has always been an IM or a system message to let the other
know its dinner time. The best part about both in IT is the sex both cyber and regular
We have our "time". Its on Sundays, that's when we load the horses up and go riding
in the woods or on the beach.
--
Old Glory, Love it, leave it, you burn it you die.
-- I am the NRA, enough said...
I'm almost finished with my divorce and have Joint Custody of my kids. My Ex did try to get Full, but I had been a bit anal in keeping a log of all the time I spent with the children since the seperation, so I won that part of it.
The one part I would say about the IT field is that the after hours work / on-call does impact the time I spend with the kids, and can cause problems. I had to go on training to Chicago this year, and some emergancy visits to Atlanta when I had to tell my kids that I would not see them. She could argue that because of this she needs full, but it is unlikely she would get it.
My $0.02 worth.
IANAL!!!
My ex took up prostitution to pay for her drug habbit after we split (and as I think back on it probably before as well). She was advertising online. I of course took the advertising photo's to court for use as evidence. She attempted to claim I doctored the photo's. An eye glazing explanation of JPEG compression methods and the dead giveaways that come with photo editing cleared me of that one.
Another thing she did was attempt to get me labeled as a cyber stalker. I think she succeeded in that. I no longer have custody of our daughter, but neither does she my parents do.
One thing to keep in mind. Lawyers and judges are not typicaly techs. Most lawyers and judges are actually less adept technically than other professionals earning simular wages. They view technology with an eye of suspicion, because as legal people they usually see the criminal end of things not the positive end of technology. Your typical legal person will use Office 97 on an out of date computer with an out of date version of Windows. The only thing they'll use the average Linux geek will use as well is PDF documents. They love PDF's, they're like faxes, only not nasty looking.
In the end I was labeled as a criminal by a divorce court with absolutely no proof whatsoever that can be tied back to me. The only thing they had was the word of a proven liar, that was a convicted felon, convicted of drug posession and theft. My criminal record to this day is spotless. She attempted to have me arrested, but when I proved to the detective she was a liar the detective dropped the case. I'm surprised she didn't turn around and go after her instead. The civil end of things are another matter entirely. I honestly think my profession had a lot to do with the courts distrust of me, and my Ex's lawyer played that up with every oppertunity. The fact I had webpage printouts of her advertising and CD's burned of her bragging about the crimes she comitted actually worked against me in that respect.
Here's an out of date account of my case. I need to make an updated version.
The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
If this isn't proof that "ask slashdot" needs to die a horrible death, I don't know what is. Its too bad common sense isn't sold at think geek, perhaps some of you might have some.
-- pupkick
The amount of time, effort, and money to properly raise a child in the US in this time and age is astronomical. Face it, most couples do NOT have enough of the above to do it, which leads to strained relationships and eventually divorce. Most of the happy couples I know have avoided kids, and they have far more time and money for themselves, which results in a much happier relationship.
Lawyers, MBA's, RIAA? A jedi fears not these things!
The person causes divorce... If you are getting divorced due to spending too much time on IT, then PEBKAC! The person chooses to spend more time on these machines, losing part of themselves in the process. They become so immeresed in IT that they forget what is actually going on in the world around them. For money, glory, hobby or out of an earnest desire to give to the world. Try getting up from the keyboard and giving to the world that way... It will vastly benefit your life and might even bolster some of those "non-tech" skills that can get you farther in the world.
While I have never been married (and don't really intend to be), I do have personal relationships and find that they suffer from my various computer-related jobs. A good portion of my paid work is work I do from home. I, like a lot of people (I imagine) do not have separate computers / areas of the house specifically for work and leisure. I play my video games and chat online and watch videos and code and code and code all from the same computers in the same room. A lot of times this consequently blurs my "work" and "play" together in the eyes of other people in the house. Sometimes I'm in my room playing video games, upgrading my computer, compiling something for fun, but sometimes I'm in there developing a company website, or repairing someone's computer, or something else I'm getting paid for. Unfortunately for my girlfriend and family, a lot of times they can't tell the difference. They just come to visit me in my room, wanting my attention for something, and I have to tell them sorry, I can't be bothered, I'm working and can't spend my paid-hourly time doing personal things. Sometimes it doesn't come out with as much finesse as written in that last sentence, and sometimes having to say/hear that creates a lot of interpersonal tension, which I suppose could ultimately lead to the divorce of a married couple if there's not a lot of understanding about the situation.
I caught the Mountain Wumpus! He gave me his treasure chest ($100) to let him go free again.
I don't know about IT as much as I know about Telecom, and as many people lump the two together I can say that in Telecom (specifically my area, Cellular) the divorce rate is extremely high. Mostly because we are on the road 10 months out of the year, and occasionally even out of the country. Cellular Installers, Commissoners, and Optimizers can be on a Project anywhere from 3 weeks to a year anywhere from Ireland to California, making it not unlike the Military with long deployments, long hours and last minute deployments. Having been working IT Rollouts for the last year, I can say that division of IT isn't much different than the above and can also cause a severe strain. But it being the root cause of divorce? I disagree with that particular segment, as it takes 2 to tango, and as mature and responsible adult you have to take in to account your own reaction to change, job demands, and family responsibilities.
The truth does not change by our ability to stomach it -Flannery O'Conner
just in different ways.
Way back in 1974, I was an intern at the JHU/APL, helping format the solar-wind-data visually - Fortran, keypunch, card-decks. One of the regular employees, Ph. D etc, was having troubles, his papers were not up to snuff. He chose the auto-in-garage CO exit, we all attended the open-casket funeral - this is vastly different than cremation. I still retain the image of Jim's face, lying in the casket. Without that image, my visual brain would be forced to remember him using other available memories. Anyway I think there OUGHT to be a book on the pressures of hi-tech jobs, is there one, I don't know of any ? At least, not any spiced up with personal case histories like yours etc. I would appreciate it if folks might cite a few such books, if they are out there. Of COURSE there are statistical issues - there is doubtless some truth in comments like the one above, that >> "People who self-select a career in information technology tend to have poor social skills" But also, statistically, you may be investing most of your early life into education, with graduate school you might start your first real job as late as early twenties. How many developers are still developing past say age 40 or 45 ? So statistically I suspect one could make a case for tech careers being similar to those of other ATHLETES in performance-based careers where it's difficult to stay employed till say Social-Security-Retirement-Age. So you will statistically tend to have problems if you become unemployed, a different set of problems if you are successful in spending oodles of time keeping up with the next batch of twentysomethings. SO I think it's a book that needs to be written, more power to you. A catchy title might be say "The Techie Life-Cycle", by analogy to some convoluted life-cycle in nature such as tadpoles-to-frogs, or dragonflies.
I also work in IT, but a while back I was also a part time fire fighter. I fellow I worked with got me involved with it. He made one comment that I've always remembered.
"A lot of people in this job (fire fighter) get divorced and they all blame the long shifts and the strange hours. That isn't the cause. The cause is that when they have a day off they spend it with the same guys they work with playing softball or watching T.V. instead of spending time with their spouse. Eventually their spouse realies that divorce won't be much different than their current life. They are already alone so why stay married."
I always thought that was an interesting insight and I've tried to remember it. When I have free time I make sure to spend the majority of it with my family. I've been married 11 years now and I'm probably closer to my wife than I was when I married her. Very few people can say that and I believe that advice got me there.
I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advise.
1) The Child Support Agency will probably not be neutral - they will probably want to give custody to your wife - Title IV-D of the Social Security Act provides for incentive payments to states based on the amount the collect in child support. If you make more than your wife, the state has a strong incentive to give her custody or to avoid joint custody.
2) The judge may not be neutral - He or she works with the people above.
3) Your Lawyer May Not Represent You - Judges in many states have vast discretion to make decisions regarding child custody and divorces based on the "Best Interest Of the Child" standards (Which means whatever the judge thinks it means). Lawyers who regularly practice divorce law representing men sometimes learn that it's best to go with the flow and let the process take place than fight and cause more harm. They ignore procedural violations of the law, just usher their clients through the system, and bill them when they're done. Some dad have had better luck with criminal attorneys rather than divorce lawyers.
4) You may pay for everything - Just to be clear, there's a fair chance that you're going to pay for your wife's lawyer, court fees, any counselors that will be called, etc.
5) You may loose the love of your child - CS collection agencies are legendarily reluctant to enforce visitation rights. Many fathers loose touch with their children after a divorce, especially when mom gets a new husband and wants that man to act as the effective father in their child's life.
6) You are not alone. One organization is here: http://www.krightsradio.com/
OK, this is advise, but not legal advise:
7) NOW IS THE TIME TO RECONCILE! Learn what's coming. Get in front of this and try to fix things with your wife NOW!
The world will not get better through technology. We must seek to be better people.
Asking slashdot will provide nothing but anecdotal evidence. The plural of anecdote is NOT data.
/. and then expect to write a thesis on it.
please if you ever plan to complete your "graduate thesis", and validate you theory that "our industry causes a high rate of divorce". Please do a proper scientific study.
Try to get the information (statistics/Data) from an existing database somewhere (census data)
or do your own random sample survey.
but for the love of science, do not ask
--meh--
There are some managers who fail to adequately budget time and/or resources and will blame you for not getting the project done on time and then fire you for it.
There are also some managers who will work their development teams to death so they can deliver their projects either ahead of schedule or in less time than other managers said it would take in order to pile up the brownie points toward bonuses and promotions. Their developers are not their concern.
There are more types of a-hole managers for this list, I am sure, and they are a fact of life. Their shortcomings are not yours, per se, but you have to make them yours as long as you wish to work for said employer and boss. The alternative is to find a new job.
"These days, people divorce because they argue too much. Or because "the spice" is gone. Or because they don't like arguing about money. Or because the in-laws hate each other. Or because wife gained some weight and doesn't look good enough anymore. Get over it. Man up and deal with it and treat the marriage with the importance it deserves."
In my experience, most people get married at far too young an age -- right out of college, typically. But when you're 22-ish, fresh out of the sheltered womb of academia, and you've never had a full-time job, a home of your own, or even more than one or two serious relationships in your life, you know virtually nothing about who you are, or you're going to become. Nevertheless, people think that they can commit themselves to another person "for eternity" at this ridiculously early stage of the game.
I believe that this is why a lot of couples split up in their early 30s for reasons that seem trivial or fundamental (i.e. "the wife gained weight," or "the spice is gone"). Couples marry young, grow apart as they grow up (you do a lot of growing in your 20s!), and discover that what seemed like True Love at 23 was really only an intoxicating mixture of youthful horniness and the fear of being alone. I'm an unmarried guy in my late 20s, and I've heard this same, sad story on many, many dates.
That said, it's a typical, puritannical American response to suggest that people should "man up," hunker down and stay in a failing relationship because the "institution" of marriage is somehow sacred or important. If two people want a divorce because they're no longer attracted to one another, or because they have disagreements about money, or family, or any number of other very fundamental things, it's incredibly stupid to suggest that they should stay together "for the marriage." People should stay together because they want to stay together -- not because some cultural police officer told them that their marriage was inviolable.
Let's try not to let fact interfere with our speculation here, OK?
My first wife and i divorced and I retained custody, not legal custody though. They just ended up living with me which was what I wanted out of the deal. I have worked in IT for 20 years and I think there could be a problem with a spouse not 'speaking your language'. Most IT folks are passionate about their jobs and need someone to talk to about it. A spouse who may not have the background and education could feel alienated. My problem was I was attending school at night and working full time, I'm sure this was part of the problem.... I was not there a lot for three years.
but you are very unlucky, and very wrong. People in SW and HW engineering who decide to give up porn and settle down seriously are almost never on the brink of divorce. When you compare them to business people or, in contrast, very low-earning families that just had children, the divorce potential we have is far less.
People involved with comp.science are mathematicians, by extension philosophers. We value love, and often are more emotional than those who have drained themselves of it with endless nights drinking and partying and going after simple innate desire. The only danger we have is being isolated in cyberspace, but that is never a threat if you are truly intelligent.
If you've already lost your wife, don't lose your son. Don't let the monitor devour you. And try to change your thesis for the love of God.
Hi Frank,
Yup, I feel for you.
Three years after our divorce, my ex-wife said we probably would have stayed together if it hadn't been for my job.
I was at XXXXX, responsible for several hundred servers from which a million+ customers were being served. There was the occasional night of getting a full sleep, but more often than not I was paged, sometimes multiple times, each page-out meaning I'd have to call the NOC to get a status, turn on the laptop, VPN in, get a few shells going, investigate the problem. Ranged from 15 minutes to many many hours per page.
It killed me, new wife, screaming. New baby, screaming. Pager, screaming.
So, we got a divorce, and I have no doubt in my mind the hell I went through at work was the primary cause of it. I even missed my own birthday party - on a four hour page-out. Came back and most people had left.
Anyway, I got custody, but it was because I had evidence that I was a better father to the child than she was a mother to the child. Write things down, keep dated notes. Yes, it could turn into a "he said, she said", but I'm telling you from experience, dated notes of events that you think will make a difference in court will make a difference in court.
The child would obviously be better off having both a mother and a father around all the time, no question. But, hey, this is life, and we get dealt our hand, and we have to deal with it. No matter what, as I'm sure you will, always make time for your child. Nothing says "I love you" like spending copious amounts of time with your child. It can make all the difference in how they turn out.
Hope this helps somehow. Good luck.
The relationship affects the job sometimes. In general, to be good at IT one needs to be immersed in technology and keeping current on a constantly changing and complex field of study. This balance is sometimes skewed by the individual them self who uses 'the job' as an escape from the relationship and so its not the job that kills the relationship, as the relationship was already over. In IT its just easier to bury your head and let the relationship die of natural causes (neglect).I have seen this many times before.
IT is a VERY broad field to ask about, and you should be much more specific. IT customer support personnel get yelled at day in and day out which makes for 'a bad day' almost everyday. Other positions (like mine) allow the person to be very creative and thus they have a more positive outlook on life and their relationships. Which type are we talking about here?
There may be some predisposition for the reason a type of person gets into a type of IT in the first place, therefor the person affects IT not the other way around. My own divorce had nothing to do with my job, but it had everything to do with her job. More specifically it was her personality that made her incapable of keeping any one IT job (aka 'her boss') for more than six months, and it was her personality that went through four cars in just under two years (had to find one she liked enough to keep), and it was her personality that made her start a consulting business and hire accountants and lawyers (but still called me for technical advise). Once she rolling in the money and was hanging out with business men and lawyers you can guess what happened next. All that was her choice in life, and I just tried to be supportive because you can't change who a person is inside no matter how you might want to try. All you can do is try to satisfy, nurture, and care for them (e.g. like 13 years of 'trying to'). At this point I'm glad she 'did it' because today I am a lot happier than she is. I've been remarried for many years now and still loving life. In contrast she will never be happy, even though we both still work in what you might call 'IT'. Our worlds are very different now, but she still calls for technical advise.
I was married for 2 years and just finalized my divorce. I asked the ex if my job had anything to do with the divorce and it came up in our marriage counseling sessions as well. She said both to me and to the therapist that my job had nothing to do with it. We just had different interests in life. We simply wanted different things. That was the main issue. She had no issues with what I did for a living as long as I was happy. Everything that we did with each other was for each other, not because we actually enjoyed doing the same things. That type of relationship just won't last. My advise, actually ask your ex why you guys got divorced and really listen to her response.
IT has little to do with Divorce. Both partys involved are to blame regardless of their jobs. I am a network admin and im on call 24/7, sometimes im away from home for days at a time. My wife is a cardiologist and works 10-12 hr days. This often leaves little time for each other. But you know what? We love each other very much, and when we have time together, we are sure to spend a lot of it together. Fortunately we are both low maintenance people and can enjoy our alone time as well, this probably helps tremendously. We both understand the scopes of each others jobs and work the best we can with it. And I feel we have a very happy and successful relationship. Its a cop out to hope that your job had something to do with it. If it did you should have quit. Family is > any job.
After a combat tour of duty in the Army in Iraq during the first sandbox war and one in ashcanistan as a reservist, me being a bit late or busy at the office as a civilian wasn't that bad a deal for my wife nor me. That perspective in some ways makes for a far different view of what's important.
Some things simply are not worth the money. Some things are. To me, my country is, so if you're wonderin why i was in the Army - that's why I took the oath and put up with some stupidity, lots of risk and the definite possiblilty of dying in a job you _can't_ quit. The rewards certainly weren't monetary, but there are rewards that you can't measre that way, especially as you get older. Its not all roses and glory (very little of it is actually). Having done my duty I hung up the uniform for good because it was hurting my marriage.
In my experience, your wife has to know she's at the top of your list (other than God if you are religious and even then you must use some sense), certainly ahead of the kids and definitely ahead of the job. But dont forget you BOTH have to work hard at it or it will fail. A long marriage isnt easy.
If push comes to shove, you have to have the courage to shove the job. Better to be squeezing by working retail with 40 hour weeks and happy with your marriage than doing IT pulling 60-70 hour weeks and miserable wrecking your marriage.
In my opinion, an IT job is not worth it compared to a marriage.
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>America as a result is leading in divorce.
don't forget their are other options besides divorce.
I'm from the same situation (devorced parents).
Our young son is happiest whenever he sees mommy and daddy kissing or hugging. He usually wants to join in too. The rest of the time, you've got to ask really nice for a hug, especially if he's in the middle of driving his tractors or "reading". But when he sees us hugging, he can't drop whatever he was doing fast enough to join in.
I think it is important for children to know that they are loved, but it at least as important that they know that the people who love them love each other. It kind of ties their whole universe together. And parents are the two most important (and most visible) people to a child, so they really need to see a strong relationship there. Before they're too old they'll know that mommy and daddy are *supposed* to love each other, and have probably heard them say it to each other too. If they see that relationship breaking down and missing love (or like I was as a child, told that mommy and daddy don't love each other any more), they'll feel a lot less secure about the love they're supposed to get from each parent, or from anyone else for that matter.
Of course I don't think it is *easy* to do this. Marriage takes work like any relationship, like any job. And often, that work doesn't seem as fun or as rewarding as your professional work (I can speak for myself here). Still there can only be two people to blame when any relationship breaks up (and usually they both deserve blame too).
What's the thought here anyway?
Is IT really that much more demanding than other professions (doctor, lawyer, army personel, etc., etc.)?
Anyways, its not the job's fault, its the person who chose the job over his or her spouse's fault.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seus
You seem to be forgetting the first rule about divorce:
Don't.
The funny thing is, I was working so many hours in my job because I was miserable in my marriage and didn't want to be home. It took a while for me to figure that out, but once I realized that being a work-aholic is often a cover for other problems (depression, etc) I found a new, useful perspective on my relationship to work.
Being there for your family mean being physically present for them. Showing up (at home)is 90% of making a marriage work. IT is built on the paradigm of work-weary geeks with no social live and no families. Seems like they don't mix well. Exceptions are noted - your milage may vary.
You bet! my oldest son is 20, he's going to college and decided to live at home instead of the dorm. My middle son just got his driver's license and he still hangs at home. My youngest one as well. Thier friends come to our house. My basement has foosball, airhockey and video games, plus a wood/metal work area.
I got married early too, so I guess I'm beating the odds. I was 22 when I got married. Right when I graduated from college and got my first job.
A lot of IT environments do make to hard to stay married and be the doting father and husband. The culture of IT is basically be on-call, work a lot of nights for changes, and be available during the day. I learned awhile back that you can push back on a lot of this, but only after you have established yourself within the industry a little.
Don't forget the constant self-study if you want to stay up to date. In a lot ways, IT Professionals have a lot of the same gripes that doctor's have and I bet the divorce rates are similar. Whether that's higher than the average or not I have no idea, but anecdotally I'd say IT folks to stay married more versus the general population, as do I would suspect doctor's do as well.
Face it, IT professionals are still paid well above the national average, and that helps balance out the negatives quite a bit.
IT is one of the most horrible jobs for relationships.
1) You work not by the clock, most are salaried and thus they 'expect' at least some overtime. I work '40' hours a week, but some of my collegues clock out long before I even have a view of the end
2) You work nights, weekends. Especially in smaller companies because you're the only point of advanced/superuser support but in bigger companies you have to because you're replaceable. You're on call 24/7 or at least once a month.
3) Stressed situations. Your manager sits on your ass for having as much work done, while end-users need your support because they are making the business. Usually you're not part of the core business, so you're merely an expense and you have a direct impact on business & performance
4) You come home and still have to keep up to date with the latest news and technologies so you're not outsmarted by some accounting dude that took the cheapest route
I have been there, I was married for over a year but the spouse couldn't keep up with the early leave, late arrival and nightly nagios alerts. It's horrible for every type of relationship because everytime you plan on something, the power goes out in the datacenter or the server crashes and there goes the planned romantic night.
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I, too, am a student and developer/designer with a son amidst a divorce. Granted, our marriage was doomed from the start for various reasons, but I can admit that being tied to a computer for prolonged periods of time has its social handicaps. So, it's a natural consequence that the social endeavor of marriage take a hit. I often heard "Stop playing on the computer!" as working was often misinterpreted by her as playing (although, I will also admit that I enjoy my work). Our industry does not necessarily equate to divorce inevitability, but it's safe to say that it plays a part.
I wrote him an e-mail, but in the end I did want to post it here too.
Frank,
My situation was a little different than yours, but similar enough to compel me to seriously comment on your questions rather than fire off something on Slashdot.
I was dating a girl at the end of college and ended up in a situation in which the girl I was dating got pregnant and moved back home. There were details that were not entirely explainable and it later turned out, there was another man involved in her life. It did turn out that she had a boy, my son, and continues to live in her home state with him to this day.
Over a year it looked like things might be worked out to provide at least a happy arrangement in which we would travel back and forth and I would get to see him regularly. Then over Christmas holidays in 2004 his mother expressed that she "never loved me" and her attitude went from warm to cold very quickly. Since then we have had one visit together which occurred later that spring. Since then it has been a string of hurtful episodes and a lot of unanswered questions. I tried to visit in the fall of 2005 and spring of 2006 when I had time off from work, and when I had a business trip that took me to the midwest. Both times his mother either "had no time", or reduced the window of time that she had available to make seeing him impossible. Yet I know that not a month after I traveled up to that area she took a vacation and went to a concert within 5 miles of my house. She didn't say she was coming, she didn't offer to bring my son... I only found out through an errant message on MySpace a month after she had been here.
I don't think my job played into our separating, but I have encountered a couple of relationships, including one that lasted a year and ended this week... some people demand lots of your time. They can be the person that you spend the most time with in the world, and treasure more than anyone, and still not see that you love them. While it is your choice to spend that time with them or not, it is also up to them to love you for who you are and let you grow as a person. Both my ex-girlfriends had a similar statement that they once made, "A serious relationship is spending all the time you possibly can with that other person." and, "People in a serious relationship see each other more than two nights a week."
I always thought a "serious relationship" was about how you felt about someone and not punching a clock to be with them when they expect you to. Especially when I see the extremes in my clients. Married entertainment business couples spend weeks apart or fly home on weekends only. There are also the couples that work together and spend ALL there time together. No one can say which is better or worse, but one thing is for certain... Time is not the most important factor in a world where both types of these relationships can exist.
My hardest challenge is everyday knowing all the things that I am missing in his life. My greatest comfort is knowing that every time I have seen him in person or in photographs... he is happy and he is healthy. I worry when I hear that he has another ear infection, or that he has been sick.
Being an IT dad, I set him up an e-mail account... He's two, he can't even read... but one day he will read the notes and the letters... and hopefully watch the video if I find a good app the use with this crazy MacBook... Hopefully he will get to know his dad, and what he was/is really about.
I can hope that the situation gets better, and I do every day. The most important thing that I would say if the relationship between your ex is not amicable... get someone in the middle to act as a buffer. My son's mother wants to meet everything head on with a great deal of conflict in every encounter. If I press to see him, she questions why a
> How many of you computer Dads have also gone through divorce and have retained either half or full custody of your children?
I'm no computer dad (yet), working on it this year though with the wife. Unless your wife was/is a crack-whore, porn star, stripper or some other type of totally immoral person, or she's just a lazy, incapable bum who couldn't earn a penny to buy toilet paper so she can wipe her ass, she will most likely retain custody of your children and half your property unless you were smart enough to get her to sign a prenup or otherwise mitigated the mutual ownership of your large assets by involving your parents on property titles, and such. I don't think even half custody (I could be wrong here, but this is just anecdotal evidence I remember from others I know are divorced) is awarded that often. She'll keep the children, and you get visitation. That's it.
> Do you think your job had something to do with it?
You want to blame something for the divorce, so it must be the job, eh? Wrong. 10 out of 10 it is you who is to blame. Not the job. Hell, not even the bitch that's leaving you right now. She probably had set a clear expectation for herself what she wanted out of the marriage. You failed to realize that before you dipped it in her honeycomb and produced an offspring that you now have a duty before society, yourself and God to rear until adulthood (18+ years). Your expectations were, obviously, different than hers. Somewhere along the way, she decided to pull out because her expectations weren't met. The good thing for her is, she now thinks she's "free" and "happy" for having left you. The bad thing for her, and she doesn't know this yet, is statistically, you are no more likely to experience a second love high from a repeat marriage or relationship than you were in the first one. She too had her demons that were telling her to leave you. It could be that she thought you were selfish with your time for her - in which case, you are the stupid one for allowing yourself to work more than 8-9 hour workdays (probably for a long time too) instead of spending time with her and your children. If you got married so that you can never be around her or the child but once in a while when you feel like it because of whatever work pressure you allowed on yourself, then why get married at all? For sex? That's what girlfriends are for - get one who doesn't want to be married, just wants to fuck, go out partying but not really share any time together. Granted, most women aren't like this, they're needy creatures, starved for attention, but I'm sure you could find a few who have as brassy "balls" as a male.
She definitely felt remiss in some department, whether it was time with you, or time with your children, or time in the sack, or maybe even money concerns (if she was a money grubbing bitch and didn't know a lick of personal/family economics and living below your means), and I'm sure she gave you warning signs all along before she decides to abandon the institution of marriage, which is a rather harsh decision. You need to reflect on how you were acting/being around her to see your perceived faults from her perspective. If you are unable to find fault in yourself, there are qualified and experienced people in these matters that can help you point out flaws in your personality, behavior, etc that may have contributed to your divorce.
There's other reasons why she may have left you... she may not perceive you manly enough, exciting enough, challenging enough, secure enough - all of which are personal emotions/views of hers, in which case, you were never a match for one another.
Now, this one may be hard to grasp - but I'll tell you something about myself - I _always_ knew which women I could marry and would stay with me, and can fully accept me, and which ones could not. I was able to pull that out of them within the first month or two of dating. After having been through numerous relationships, I got hitched at age 25, probably earlier than what I expected, but I
The fact that you are asking about something that has to do with kids pretty much excludes just about everyone here. Unless they've become lax and have started letting people living in their parents basement adopt kids.
The job can be a factor, but how much of one depends on the kind of woman you married. If she's an high-maintenance attention whore, it doesn't matter what kind of job you have, just count your blessings and move on.
Companies want programmers who think "out of the box" only to put them in tightly controlled boxes after hiring. WHY?
Unbalanced commitments to your job and interpersonal relationships caused your divorce. It's probably two steps beyond that, but hey, I'm not a counseler.
Many marriages involve compromise.
You picked nice steroetypical womens wants and IMO skipped over the basic issues.
Women (and men) tend to want some attention and time with their spouse.
Guys might get more attached to career and video games, women might get spend more time on the kids or their career or friends.
In these cases the one spouse is pursuing their own interests without the other. This may cause some resentment which at least contributes to some relationship issues.
It happens both ways for a variety of reasons.
The going out thing is simple, some people don't want to just sit around their house ALL the time. My last vacation I just went somewhere else to be away from the house and break out of the routine.
Definitely. .com boom and my wife expected me to be making $100K my first year out. The paltry $50K wasn't enough. Talk about unrealistic expectations.
My first wife walked out on me 1 1/2 years out of university. The reasons (as far as I understand):
1.It was during the
2.IT is stressful, especially for those that seem to be good at it -- if there's a bug that you can't fix, even a minor one, can you go home at night and not think about it? When I was young, I couldn't. They don't teach you that one in "algorithm optimization 305".
3.I couldn't talk to my wife about my work problems. Try explaining that I haven't come home for 48 hours because I forgot to malloc an array before using it and the damn thing randomly starts spewing out weird data after 20 hours of continuous use.
4.Guys that like IT like to play with computers. You generally have one at home. Do the math. Ever spent 3 hours optimizing your 2 minute boot up time down to 1 minute 45 seconds? Me too. Run multiple web servers/database engines/operating systems at home "just for fun?" Me too. Do you think that's fun for the wife?
5. Unrealistic project deadlines. It always seems that IT gets the shaft on projects. You estimate 8 weeks to deliver something without working overtime, and the business delays until 2 weeks before you need it. Of course the home life suffers.
"You disturb me to the point of insanity. There. I am insane now." - The Sprockets
I have been a working developer for 8 years - 5 years ago and meet my ex-wife and 4 years ago we go married. 1 year ago, we got divorced. I will admit that the long hours that I would work didn't help. A few months before our seperation, I had just finished a project that had me working 80 hours a week for 3 months straight!! That really put a strain on things. But in the end I can't blame my job or the career. Point blank - I didn't respect her. She hadn't graduated high school, and I couldn't convince her to go to college, not too mention she didn't help out around the house. However, all my peers are educated, have good paying salary jobs, or at least do something productive. When I would see the hot girl in marketing, or even the normal decent looking girl programming on my team, I would be jealous and wish my wife could be like them. In the end, that destroyed my marriage. However, it was for the better ;)
As for our son (who is now 4), he is taking it ok. It is happening early enough in life that he doesn't really know any better. At first he was confused and when he was with either of us, he missed the other. But ultimately, my wife and I being apart is better for him because he doesn't see me being a jerk to her, nor does he see us arguing. I want him to grow up respecting women, and be seeing me not respecting my wife would have taught him wrong.
Aa
Love the kid, respect his needs and put yourself second, as simple as that. But wounded egos makes the simple task complicated. Try to be honest to your kid and yourself about the reasons you feel the way you are and never go for the sympathy from your son, he is mad at both of you naturally because you are acting very strange to him.
In my opinion computer jobs are the perfect escapes where you can have total control for a while in a time when things are totally screwed up and you have become a passanger in your life. You rather crush that bug than fix the needs of your family. In that sense you are right but the cause is not our jobs I think.
On the bright side, you will now have the chance to get to know your son better. Nothing is more important.
And when you think about it, if you hadn't been so tired from overtime you might not have created the bugs you have been working overtime to fix, and so forth. I am constantly trying to work less hours a day for that reason, the creative peak is 2-4 hours long + 2 hours of meetings and coffee drinking makes a total of six hours. Then go home avoiding the bugs you are about to create...
Making careers in the US is probably based on loads of working hours and making quarterly reports. Hmmm..., poor you, no wonder that you need that christian fundamentalism over there to keep the families together...
Let go! / Starbar
We're nerds. Deal with it. Consider yourself lucky that you got laid, and move on.
Nerds will never be more than husband 1.0, or maybe husband 0.99.
Any woman who marries a nerd is eventually looking to upgrade to Jock 1.2, after having secured enough funds from nerd 1.0 to pay for Jock 1.2's beer habit.
As to kids, etc. You might be better off without the hassle.
And pencilnecked nerds in the company of children looks suspsicious anyways.
Just send them the best possible christmas and birthday present, and hope the mother isn't anything like the wicked queen in Snowhite.
-- Another senseless waste of fine bytes.
I think there are a lot of people in IT that sought out this field because of a need to dedicate themselves to something greater than themselves. When a database crashes in the middle of the night and you know you're the one that can fix it and that hundreds, thousands or more people rely on your skills, well, it may not be curing cancer, but it feels good to be that important. This can be difficult to explain to your family and it can be hard when you know that your spouse doesn't understand what it is you do. As a programmer I spend countless hours absorbed in my code. Sometimes I can't stop thinking about it, obsessed with how object layers and databases and network communication and security aspects all fit together. When my wife asks what's on my mind I can say "work" or "code" or just "nothing" but I can't hope to explain my deep fascination with these projects. If I try she feels bored or confused or feel belittled because I'm talking over her head. So, yeah, I'd agree that IT can be tough on a marriage. It's been tough on mine, but we're still together. I imagine many other professions suffer from similar issues. Law comes to mind as probably much worse.
He's right dude (please mod this parent up).
Now it may be true that there are work-a-holics, and anti-social people in IT (both traits which can lead to bad marrages), but trying to carry on a job, an education, kids, and be a good spouse, something's gotta give. I think you're stretching it man.
Before anybody reading this thread even considers giving advice. please read: 1. The Evolution of Desire - by David Buss 2. The Selfish Gene - by Richard Dawkins. Enough said.
Does IT attract preople who are poor at personal relationships to begin with?
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
I worked for over 20 years in information technologies, starting briefly as a programmer and moving into networking. For the last ten years of that time (or when our two kids were in middle grammar school through high school and college) I traveled between 60% and 80% of my time. One of my sons followed me into the business and jokes that in order to get his first gig, he showed them my resume and said, "This is my mother, and she taught me everything she knows. You gotta hire me." (Of course he did no such thing.) He has now far surpassed me in knowledge, capabilities, and skills. The other son went off in a completely different direction. One is married, both are in stable, loving relationships. I am more proud of them than I can ever express, and I believe both have actually become friends. I am still with the husband I married in my twenties, before I knew what a computer was. He, too, is a friend as well as a husband. He enabled me to accomplish all that I did.
The all-important key is that you have to set limits. Employers will want to wring as much work out of you as they can get. That's what employers do. What you have to do is to develop an ironclad determination that you are working to live, not living to work. You are a spouse first, a parent second, and a [insert job title here] third.
There are always trade-offs. A screaming, teething baby with an earache demands more time than a sunny, stable three-year-old. That extra time gets shaved out of the marriage, and it has to be put back later. A frenetic project on the other side of the country demands more time than a week of filing reports or doing proposal work. That extra time, too, gets shaved out of the marriage (and the parenting). It has to be put back later.
Think of it as a bank account. You can't keep making withdrawals without ever making a deposit, or you'll be broke. Since 2001 I have set off in an entirely new direction. My husband is still my main supporter. We don't have as much money, but we get to spend a lot more time together. Fortunately there is enough in the spiritual/marital "bank account" that we can actually enjoy this.
I think if more people would stand their ground on this subject with overbearing employers, more employers would get the message that employees with actual lives really have more of a stake in the game.
"Here's what's happening. You're starting to drive like your Dad..." - Red Green
No offense, as it's a touchy subject, but this is the lamest way to pull information for a paper. At best you're going to pull anecdotal evidence from pissed off divorcees and their counterparts who are happily married.
Why don't you use your time looking for surveys based on occupation vs. divorce rates?
Disagreeing with me does not mean you get to mod me troll.
I am a divorced IT guy. To everyone who is spraying the original poster with shit mist, I have this to ask:
Have you ever been in love? Have you ever bet the farm? Have you ever given everything, and failed?
The answer is "no", because you are too emotionally immature and selfish. You are wasting your life and if you live long enough, you will be very sorry.
And they will shit on your chest. Selah.
I agree with you 100%, and it's all about personality type. I just finished high school, and jumped right into working for an ISP in Ontario, Canada. I met a girl, had a child, and was married, all before I was 21. For the next 3 years I would study Cisco certifications and eventually was awarded CCIE #11021 in Janurary 2003. Since I had finished studying, I decided to start my own business in addition to my dayjob. I spent a year coding and wiring the business, and it was a success. The Business was fully automated and ran itself. Great. I had a CCIE, was a network engineer for a great company, I had my own thriving business. All the while, I was on call for both companies 24/7. I was a success - or was I? Well just newly successful, I was ready to enjoy some free time with my wife and two children, but it seemed that we had drifted apart. She had her own new social life, of which I didn't seem to fit in, and I went a bit crazy. She eventually asked me to leave, and so I did. I've been separated for almost 2 years now. I've sold my Business, and am just directing my energy to my day job, and trying hard to keep my spirits up. I pay a fortune in spousal & child support, and can barely afford my own car and appartement. Maybe it has something to do with the sort of people that are successful in IT. We're incredibly smart - mathematically, and technically, but we seem to have no common sense. I guess I would have been better off paying more attention to selecting a the right wife, rather than the right career. I've caused large networks to crash spectacularily, and I've learned a lot by putting them back together more efficient and robust than they were before. However, when all is said and done, computer programmers learn by making mistakes. We're high energy risk takers and problem solvers. We shouldn't expect our family life be an excpetion to this. Just learn from the mistakes, and build it better the next time.
If this is the kind of thesis that involves doing actual research, wouldn't you want to collect data using RANDOM SAMPLING?
As for intelligence, it always isolates because it reduces the number of potentially mutually satisfying (whatever the tolerable IQ delta) interactions. Communications technology helps (especially as flat as the Internet) but it helps averages precisely the same amount.
I could see potential, but stop & take inventory of all the information you offered in your ask slashdot post:
1) Web developer (btw, I hate when people lump programming/design work into the IT bucket...)
2) Grad student
3) Married
4) Child
Ever consider that maybe you're a bit overextended? That's your own fault, not the fault of the IT industry.
I agree with much of what you said, especially about people not being ready for a long term relationship, or of having a lot of growing still to do. However, the latter portion (quoted) led to some objections.
I agree, that if two people realize that they aren't meant to be together, and that they aren't happy, or have other unresolvable differences (number of viable partners, etc
That said, it seems like the general tendency of many Americans (I can't broaden this to the rest of the world, since I don't live there) to throw up their hands in defeat at the first sign of resistance. I believe the "man up and do something about it" part was accurate, in that a healthy marriage takes work (just like most any good relationship). If you get in a fight, you have to be willing to make up. You have to be willing to think about compromise, and likely will need to meet in the middle on many topics. (Or, decide which ones are important to you enough to object to, versus which ones Don't Matter in the long run -- color of towels, house painting, etc, anything that Makes the Wife Happy.)
I didn't take the "Man up!" imperative as a direction to stay with any marriage, and keep it alive no matter the cost, but more of a reminder that we have to actually put in effort to keep our marriage healthy.
I think this ties in with your theory: I suspect many people marry before they are emotionally mature enough to be willing to think of TWO needs, instead of just ONE. =)
I guess she should have thought about that before deciding to 'keep' the baby... Many women are being made aware of these realities, but feel they know better.
I have little sympathy for those situations.
Ask Hans Reiser.
I fall into the category - tech worker, dad, divorced. I don't have any kind of custody of my son, basically because my ex is from a rich family and I was dead broke at the time from paying her credit card bills. I do have standard visitation, though, and I'm always pushing for more.
Anyway, the point is, I don't think it's so much a question of the tech industry creating situations (lots of time in the office, high stress, bringing work home, etc etc) that lead it's people into divorce. I think, rather, that the tech industry is filled with people who lack the social skills required to make a marriage work.
First off, techies probably got into the field because they grew up spending more time with computers than humans because they were the geeky social outcasts. Second, because techies were likely geeky social outcasts, they probably glom'd onto the first person willing to marry them (but not necessarily the right person) because of a fear they would never find anyone else (low self-esteem is rampant in the geeky social outcast crowd). Third, not many geeky social outcasts with low self esteem are able to handle confrontation, which is inevitable even in a strong healthy marriage, so they probably avoided the problems (long hours at work) or behaved to aggressively in response (the ol' "yell louder to win" routine). Neither solves problems, both just make problems worse. Eventually, someone calls it quits. Either the techie grows a spine and realizes what a mess he or she is in and jumps ship, or the non-techie spouse gets fed up with the loser and leaves.
Raise your hand if this sounds familiar to you? It's basically the exact situation almost all of my divorced techie coworkers found themselves. It's pretty much where I found myself. At least I was fortunate to be the kind of techie who learned some self esteem and grew a backbone. While I may not have custody of my son due to my financial circumstances at the time, I do have a strong relationship with him, my experience has taught me invaluable lessons in how to make my second marriage a brilliant success, and . . . I guess i don't really have a third. But anyway.
To sum up, stop trying to blame someone else for what really is a failure between you and your spouse. The fault lies solely between the two of you and not with your employer. Grow a spine, learn some self esteem, and work harder at your marriage than at your job.
=p
I caught the Mountain Wumpus! He gave me his treasure chest ($100) to let him go free again.
The idea is to show that IT careers cause divorce. I don't think that's the case. What I think is more the case is the personality of "IT people" leads to a high frequency of divorce.
Some people in IT have very long-term relationships as one poster had indicated. (By the way, you're a moron if you think your one example disproves a generality. Exceptions do not disprove generalities. Generally speaking, "Men like naked women." But there are lots of exceptions to that assertion, but it's GENERALLY true.) But generally, my casual observation seems to agree with the submitter's experience, which is that IT people have a pretty high incident of divorce. And there could be a lot of reasons contributing to divorces where one party is in an IT career.
But to presume it's the career, I think, is a bit off. For one, "IT" is too general to begin with. "IT" is everything from telephone support to DBAs to Applications developers. Some "IT pros" work from home and some 9-to-5 it. (Still others 7-to-7 it like I do sometimes.) But to really get to the root of the issue, you need to determine the cited causes of divorce where one party is "IT." From there you could divide causes into catagories like "IT root cause" and "personality root cause."
My first marriage ended because she was a lunatic. (A generality that many people could also claim for themselves, but in my case it was especially true since it could be said she attempted to kill or critically injure me with a katana.) It had little to do with my IT career or personality traits. That said, there was considerable friction associated with my habits associated with the use of computers and games.
If I were to put forth a hypothesis, I would suggest that the "IT personality" is a cause for the high incident rate of divorce among IT professionals.
At least in IT you have the choice. You can advance slower, take on less responsibility and work a 10 hour day to make less money. In film production you either work 16 hour days or you don't work. The End. One of the few other jobs with similar demands would be the medical profession. I agree I don't think the OP can complain about his hours, he had the choice to work less hours, and he didn't. Boo Fucking hoo.
There's also always the option to *not* work in said demanding industry.
Until the kids are independent, the kids must come first. When two people agree to have kids, they are morally obligated to give the kids their best. That means they should give of themselves and get along with each other for the sake of the kids. Forget about "I". If you have kids, everthing else is second. But it follows that if the kids come first and the best thing for the kids is to have a stable, heathy family environment, then the parents will get along, respect each other, etc. for the sake of the kids. When you have kids, you are no longer number one. Neither parent is number one.
If you don't have kids, who cares if you get divorced. If you have kids and get divorced, you are harming your kids. It may be the lesser of two evils, but it still does harm. Of course when one parent is abusing the kids or being unfaithful or so on, then the best thing for the kids IS to get divorced. It's all about what's best for the kids. Sometimes a divorce IS what's best for the kids.
You didn't mention what your degree was in. But, if it's in IT, I don't think you should be writing this paper at all. You don't have the experience to proceed. The mere fact you're asking a group like /. is proof that you don't know how to gather the data.
I was in IT for 35+ years. Married some, single custodial dad for some. IT didn't exert any undue influences, the people in the marriage did.
Go over to a mirror and stand there looking into it until you find the source of the divorce. Oh yeah, have your soon-to-be ex stand alongside you. The children should be playing in the yard, away from the causes of the problem.
IT work is not the cause for divorce, several factors can contribute.
/family centered value system puts the family at the top, followed by work then spiritual and personal development time, then personal time, then time with friends/ play
One -- setting the proirities of your life to work centric.
a good selfless
two -- allowing work even when it is not needed to interfere with personal time with the children and your wife. working late when you could have been home with the wife and kids, then work for a hour or two before bed. working on the train instead of at home, etc. working at home too much, try to set at least two weekend and two weeks of the month with no work at home and no late nights.
three -- finding yourself running faster than you can bear, too much work, too little time for others, even with deadline, finding the time to relax, fully without thoughts ( stop and smeel the roses, even if it takes a little while to catch up
Four -- not working at you marriage, marriage is hard work at time, not just chores, but attending to the needs, emotionally or your spouse is a key to a happy home.
best saying for a family centered life,
In 100 years it will not matter how much money was in my bank account, what car i drove, or the job I had, but the world can be a better place because of my influence of me in the life of my child.
just my thoughts, as A IT professional for 10 years three children and 9 years of marriage.
e-mail me if you want dleighner@gmail.com
To be in this industry, you're basically required to work longer/harder than 'average'. To those who say it's just a matter of priorities, that's fine, but if your top priority is something other than work you'll probably end up finding yourself another job that's less demanding, meaning not an IT job. IT jobs are demanding, so if you're in IT it is basically understood that you do prioritize your job pretty highly (some exceptions).
Now, nobody defines 'average', except your significant other. Long story short though, if your wife doesn't like how long/hard you have to work it makes your relationship more difficult. More difficult relationships have a higher rate of failure. On average, I think it can probably be proven that the divorce rate is higher than average for IT workers.
...is that you're a tool.
I've been married for 3 years now and previous to that dated her for 6 years. We were together since high school and she knew that I was going into IT but I dont think she really knew what was in store for her as the wife of an IT guy. The 3am calls, the random "I have to work 5 hours over", along with the leaving the movie theater/dinner because I got a message on my blackberry saying a server is down takes its toll on her. She understands the fact that the industry I work in is like this, but at the same time she gets angry because to her this means I love my job more than I love her.
This could not be further from the truth, I dont enjoy these kinds of events but that doesnt stop her feelings that she should be more important. We've had the discussion about it many times and while she is understanding of the issue she doesnt like it. I can see how the OP feels like IT is the reason for his divorce, it is stressful on a relationship but I dont think it was the only reason. More than likely it was just something extra putting stress on a relationship that wasnt stable in the first place
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
- Winston Churchill
It seems many people are missing the point of this Thesis possibility.
The idea is to check if there is a correlation between working in a stressful job, like a developer or project manager whose commitments don't end when he or she leaves the office.
The question is not whether this man's divorce can be blamed on working IT or not. The question is whether a stressful/analytical job which often requires overtime might be related to the relationship troubles characterized by a divorce.
On that point, this thesis sounds more like anthropology than computer science or IT.
Idiots.
/., fark, and going to meetings, then you're really just working for 4 hours and the rest of your time could be replaced by a mannequin.
Everywhere I go, I see idiots.
You are one of them.
If you have to work more than 40 hours a week, then you are either incompetent or poorly managed. If the only way to meet deadlines is to work insane amounts of overtime, then you have to hire more people or do less work. (i.e. have fewer customers or looser deadlines). You only have so many productive hours in a day. Thinking that you can work more than that is a fallacy. Your code will be junk. Your designs will be shitty. You will have no life. And frankly, you fucking incompetent meatbags who have to take twice as long give managers absurd expectations about human performance. Further, if you're spending 6 of your so-called 10 hour days read
I am an Engineer. (A real one.) I am married with two kids. I am salaried. I meet all my goals (I've actually been told to stop working so fast!) and I go home on time.
My day starts when I get home. So should yours. If your boss won't accept that you are not a machine, then tell him to fuck off. He is a sociopathic homewrecker. Use those words. Be unkind.
And for fuck's sake, stop being a fucking idiot.
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
Many people have said that blaming IT for divorce is foolish; it is the person who causes the divorce, not their chosen career. That is true. What would be interesting to me are divorce rates among IT professionals. If those rates are high, it wouldn't suggest that IT, as an industry, causes divorces. It may suggest that people who tend to go into IT aren't capable spouses. Or it may suggest that people who tend to go into IT aren't don't marry capable spouses. Nevertheless, I don't think anyone (even TFQ) has said that that IT, as a career, has a greater sway in divorce than any other time-intensive career.
In my opinion, a boss saying "you're indespensible" or "there's a dealine friday" is just an ego-stroke, designed to keep you working unpaid overtime for the company. I should know, I've taken that bait more than once. No one is indespensible, and if the company were serious about the production schedule, they'd hire enough staff to come in on time. We're being played. Worse, we offer up our families on the alter to our egos. Grad school is a huge time commitment - having done it, I'm not sure it was worth the price.
Ultimately, companies rise and fall, whole fields of endeavor wax and wane, and the career that looks like gold today will likely be dross in time. Take time NOW for your wife, and kids if you have them. I know too many nerds that have a shelf filled with company awards, and go home to an empty house at night. No pretty little bauble on your brag-shelf will compensate for failure within the family. If your current job isn't family friendly, start printing resume's today.
I left a "big" job a few months ago. I kept it because after the dot-bomb I was afraid of being unemployed. They gradually demanded more and more of my time, and were fairly generous with the compensation. Eventually, I found myself arguing my wife of 20 years (a rare occurance), and it became apparent I didn't know the name of the school my daughters went to, or the names of their best friends. The next day, I talked with my boss, and when she wasn't receptive to my needs, started looking for new work. I am poorer financially, but FAR, FAR happier than I would have been had I stayed. I hope my wife will be at my side long after I've bid a final farewell to my career, it would be stupid to ruin something eternal for that which of little worth.
Alas, I don't feel like telling the whole story here. If any are interested, shoot email to fred_thestory@sillylife.com and I will send you the URL once I have it set up.
Ruby Neural Evolution of Augmenting Topologies
In my experience, working too many hours in an IT position has been quite disasterous as far as maintain a relationship goes. There's something about sitting in front of a glowing screen for 9-10 hrs a day sorting through a million different details that "matter" to someone else but that you don't give a flying fuck about in the long term that quite simply sucks away the desire to do anything other than slowly self destruct. Is this really the best I (we?) can do?...
Holy crap. I've got to grab my hip waders, the bullshit is getting deep in here.
... may I just simply echo a long chorus of /.ers that have said - don't blame the work - it's either you or her. The fact that you are trying to place blame on your profession? That quite strongly pronounces that it was you.
It's because of WOMEN PSYCHOLOGY????? THe woman sees the world around her as part of HER life? Everything's a ME thing to the woman, where the MAN sees everything is about others, never himself??? The Woman needs to adjust to the 21st century???
Holy crap.
Mr. Women Psychology Sir - it sounds like you had a few too many BAD experiences with women. That crude blathering you spout here is not "women psychology" - that is YOUR take on women. And it's malarky, no matter how well it fits the psychology of the women you've known. And I feel badly for you in that case.
To the thesis boy
You are getting a divorce - and - to PROVE that it was not YOUR fault your marriage failed, you are going to write a thesis, get the support of your fellow geeks here (at least that was the *plan*) - and get a soaring A++++++ grade that would affirm what you've always known - it's NOT YOUR FAULT!!!
Take responsibility. Stop blaming your profession, or "women psychology" - or whatever else convenient crap excuse you can come up with which sounds convincing enough to assuage your guilty conscience.
Dammit - be a man! Where the hell has honor and accountability gone?
I always flinch when people talk about intimate relationships in terms of 'skills.' It changes the framing of the coversation: She's no loger a person who I love; there's a "relationship" that I... 'do?' 'Skill' reduces 'having relationships' to an activity to be mastered, like riding a bike or using a machine tool. The word implies exploitation -- that you make a relationship 'work' by having mastered the art of operating people. We acquire skills by practice: Do we wake up in the morning and choose for another day to stay with someone simply because we've "fallen off enough bicycles" to be "good at it?" What might it mean to have "mastered" 'relationship-ing' anyway? To continue to sustain 'a relationship?' What's the inherent good in that?
The word 'skill' connotes 'manipulation.' What it does not connote are genuineness or honesty -- yet those are what are worth seeking. Where is the spark, the humanity, the connection, in 'skill?'
I will leave 'skill' on my resume. Next to words like 'achieve' and 'implement.' And away, I hope, from 'love.'
I think women (most with exception of shegeeks) respect Doctors and Lawyers more...they will carry the load for "Doctor's/Lawyer's wife".
I have been working in IT for almost 9 years now. I started back when I was 18 and worked all the way through college. I am married with a 2.5 yr old son and while I do believe the job adds stress, it is not to blame. Late nights and off hours emergencies are part of the job, but as long as the communication is there it isn't an issue. You also have to be conscious about the level of time and effort you put into your marriage and family and make sure it's at or above the committment you have with your job and company.
~Cone
Funny you should mention that when he's essentially soliciting anecdotal evidence in favor of his thesis by asking for people to tell their own stories.
He's not taking a representative sample group and testing whether or not his thesis is true but is instead trying to find data points that agree with his thesis and ignoring the context of how many others disagree with it. It's not exactly scientifically rigorous work so much as an attempt to find other people to reassure him that he's normal, and that's it's less his fault than if there was no correlation.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
It's not the job.
Out of all my computer industry friends, I am the only one who had a previouse wife.
Small data point, but there you are.
It's the relationship.
If you really think it's your chosen profession, why don't you change fields?
If it is your field, and you don't want to switch, then it's YOU.
we're in an industry where most people can be home most weekends, work a regular schedule, and seldom are in harms way.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Married? Kids? I'm still running girlfriend 5.0 since I'd heard the upgrades to wife 1.0 came with so many problems I'd stick with what already works for me. :-P
Yeah... I miss the 90s too. They had the best jokes then, didn't they?
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
Well, this is from my point of view. My mom was a school teacher (no she isn't dead, yet, but retired) and my father worked in IT (till about 2 years ago when his division was out sourced) and I also have a brother who is a year older. Okay, so you have the back round information. My parents got divorced in 1986. I am not sure why, but do I think it was from the job my father held at the time? No. Has it affected me and my brother? Yes, I mean my parents divorced when i was 7 years old and I saw my father every other weekend (so about 5 days a month). Does it still affect me? Why yes, I am not close to either parent. I have not talked to my father is several months, I talk to my mom often but don't feel close. As for my brother, we talk and have started to become close, but me living 6000 miles away doesn't help this at all... Because of this, I don't see my father as a father, I see him more like a friend, growing up that is how it was too. I mean only seeing him 5 days a month it was like lets go have fun, he never had to punish us or do any of that normal parenting stuff.
Basically, divorce sucks, more for the kids then the parents! I could go into more personal stuff too, but I dont have the time and you don't want to hear it... divorce screws with kids heads, has done it to me!
How do you take a picture of the best moment of your life?
I've been divorced for a couple years now, and I have primary custody of my 4 year old daughter. I've worked in I.T. for roughly 15 years now. (I'm 35.)
... although if I wasn't under the financial stresses of losing a decent-paying job and having no prospects on the horizon of a replacement with anywhere near similar pay, we might have had a better shot of working through it.
While I agree that it's foolish to blame "I.T." itself as "the reason" for a divorce, it's also true that it can be a contributing factor. If you look at the statistics out there, they show that a surprisingly large number of marriages end in divorce primarily over financial stress/issues. I know my own divorce happened right in the middle of the whole "dot com bust" era, when everyone started getting worried about the I.T. job market, and I in fact did lose my job.
Without going into too much detail, my ex-wife wasn't completely mentally stable. Her pregnancy seemed to be the "trigger" for her latent issues (never conclusively diagnosed but suspected by at least one therapist in the past of being bi-polar, and suffered from bouts of depression). That's, ultimately, what made it impossible to live with her anymore
I will tell you this much. If you're in I.T. like I am and you're trying to raise a child by yourself, make SURE you work for someone who is understanding and flexible with the hours!! My kid just started preschool during the day, and they won't even allow dropping her off until about 7:50AM each day. I'm supposed to be at work by 8:00, which just doesn't quite work. After a few rounds battling this out with the owners, H.R., etc. - they finally seem to have agreed to let it slide, as long as I make myself very reachable by cellphone and make up the time with shorter lunches, working a little bit late, etc. Since school usually lets out by 3PM, that also poses problems. I'm currently faced with selling my house and moving much closer to my parents, so they can more easily lend a hand.
Don't blame the IT field for your divorce. Blame yourself (and your wife) for not ensuring that your ideas of marriage aligned before you got married.
It sounds like your idea of marriage was that you would prioritize your job over your wife under certain circumstances. It sounds like your wife's idea of marriage was that you would prioritize her over your job under those same circumstances. It doesn't mean you always deprioritized your wife or didn't care for her. It doesn't mean she was too demanding or needy. It doesn't mean that either one of you was "wrong" for expecting what you expected. It just means your expectations were fundamentally mismatched.
You need to find yourself a woman who has the same idea of marriage that you do. You both need to check continuously that you are on the same page as each other -- this is what those relationship advice articles mean when they are always talking about "communication". Find a woman who agrees with your expectations and tactics and who wants the same things out of marriage and life that you do. And the same advice would help your ex-wife: she needs to find herself a husband whose idea of marriage aligns with her own.
As for the kid caught in the middle of this divorce, be honest with yourself: who is going to give that kid more time and attention and proper parenting? If it's not you, then do the kid a favor and let your ex play that role. Don't use the poor kid as a tool of vengeance (by fighting for custody just to deny your ex something she wants). Be the better human being and do the best thing for the kid instead of being immature and selfish.
Moderator hint: a comment is neither "Flamebait" nor "Troll" if it is true.
I was learning how to code and learning my craft when I filed for divorce back in 1997 after nine years of marrige. But then I was also married to a golddigging, lying, cheating bitch at the time so I don't know if that had anything to do with it either. Wife number two is a gazillion times better and my partner in the graphics and webdesign company we now run out of our home. She does the pretty artwork, and I make it into a working website. It's the best of both worlds. I get to work at a job I love, with my wife and I don't have to put up with the usual office politics and bullsh**. Frankly, my stress level is nearly zero and I have time for my son (with #2, none with #1 thank the gods!). Just my two bits on the subject Goran
Carpe Scrotum - The only way to deal with your competition.
As a simple example, women have a primal driver towards infidelity
That is not true, and offtopic. Men are historically known to have a greater tendency for polygamy, to the degree that it is socially accepted and sometimes part of religious doctrine. Infidelity on part of the wife is very rare if she is satisfied, and communities the world over tend to think a lot lower of the unfaithful wife, due to the pscychological nature of the female-male relationship and the role of dominance..etc.
AS for the more relevant part of your answer - the romance, the deep reflection and the intelligence of the computer scientist can be either tools for his destruction or stairways to marital heaven. If you're smart enough to make your spouse laugh and to know what she wants and to respect it, rather than being drawn into the sometimes more important areas of thought, then you will do fine. If you can't enjoy time with your wife then you have made an obvious error in choice, which is not exclusive to intelligent people alone.
"and don't you ever put your children second."
Only to a point. We have pampered and spoiled kids everywhere now. We've turned them into these little fragile angels who you can never say no to or even raise your voice at. They need to learn that sometimes the best thing for you is ultimately good for them. You need to take care of yourself too.
Whether you're a parent going through a divorce, a child whose parents were divorced, or are married to a person whose parents are divorced, you absolutely should read "The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce" by Julia Lewis.
The book is a 25 year longitudinal study of children whose parents were divorced and it covers many, many issues, some of which I am still working to resolve some 20 years after my parents divorced.
FYI, I am married, no kids.
I hear where you're coming from. In my case, it turned out differently. I saved the marriage and lost the job. It wasn't easy - I basically had to walk out of the job, with nothing lined up, and we lived off savings and odd jobs for a few months. But I did eventually find an family-friendly employer. I say we let the young, single people work the 80+ hour weeks, and wonder why the old timers don't. Call us lazy if you want, then you'll hit burnout and realize what we've been on about the whole time. Your lack of planning is not my crisis!
I'll give the perspective from the flip side. My dad was a computer professional back in the punch card and reel-to-reel days. He and my mother divorced in 1979, and had shared custody of my brother and I until 1989, when I turned 18 and my brother sued for emancipation.
Growing up in a tug-of-war shared custody environment is something that I would never wish on anyone. I fully believe that I would have been better off growing up being 100% with one parent or the other after their divorce. Picture a band-aid slowly being peeled off over ten years. My brother and I eventually made the adult choice to side with my mother (realizing our dad really did have fundamental problems) and have cut off relations with our father, having not spoken with him for almost 10 years.
My point being, do what's best for your kid. If you or your kid's mom are unable to leave your emotional baggage behind, and not fight over your kid's time or make your kid feel like he's a commodity in an emotional tug-of-war, then just man up and leave his life now (or convince his mom to leave) while he's young enough to not hate you for it.
On the upside, I have fond memories of playing "Hunt the Wumpus" on a terminal in a vast cavern of humming mainframes during "Take your kid to work day", and learned to program little things in Assembly while still learning my multiplication tables. So I guess that relates to Slashdot.
----- And all that the Lorax left here in this mess was a small pile of rocks, with one word...UNLESS.
What exactly are these "marriage" and "divorce" concepts you speak of?
I work in IT and am still married with one son to my wife of 6 years, partner for 11. We are about to buy our second house together.
IT can be demanding. The threat of cheap offshore labor has a lot of us putting in 60, 70, 80 hour weeks so we won't get 'outsourced'.
At the end of the day, your life and family are the most important thing in your life. Work 40 hours a week and be happy. Don't come home and work. Don't stay at the office til 10 PM. Don't think you can come home after an 8 hour day and stretch out. You need to change diapers, help clean, and watch the kid while your wife cooks dinner (or you need to cook while your wife handles the baby). Then you need to sit down and eat as a family.
Put the kid to bed, then hang out with your wife and watch TV, or a movie. Take a break together. That "you take him, I had a bad day at work" crap won't fly. Go out once a month.
If your boss has a problem with it, find a new job.
You are a father and need to be there for your wife and child. There is no other option. I suggest you take what you've just learned here and go save your marriage.
Working more than Joe in the corner cube so you get the biggest bonus in the group is _stupid_ and it's a fools game. Working 80 hrs a week so you can get the project done that your manager overpromised on, won't help. That project will still be late and if you rush it, you'll have way too many bugs. Studies show that your efficiency actually drops when you work 80 hrs a week, and in fact, sometimes get less done than if you were well rested and working 8 hour days.
That is what the root of the issue is, not your career choice. Work-life balance is the thing that most people never get right and causes a large percentage of divorces.
I work 40 hours a week, sometimes, during a big implementation, 60. That happens 4 times a year at the most.
I was in your position 3 years ago, my wife was fed up and ready to leave. In fact, she was so distraught she went to a walmart and stole stuff because she knew she would get caught. It took her getting arrested to wake me up.
I had a talk with a therapist who pointed out to me that my wife thinks I think my boss is more important than they were. I had a radical 180, stopped worrying about stuff that was out of my control and could do nothing about, started working 40 hours a week and leaving my pc at home turned off, and my wife and I are now happier than we've ever been.
I have news for you, if your boss tells his boss that you can do a 3 month project in 4 weeks, it's not your problem, it's his.
If this creates a problem between you and your boss, you need to fire _him_.
I did it, you can do it. I am more productive doing a 40 hour week here than I ever was doing 80 hour weeks at my last job.
-AC
First: Do you really think that this is a subject that you should be writing a thesis on? While you are experiencing it, that in this case, does not make you an expert. It makes you a person with an opinion, a person with a stake in it, a person suffering through it. It is like a typical cancer paitent writing a medical thesis on their particular malignancy. To me, a thesis like this should be written by someone with a background in social work.
I've been married three times and divorced twice, with kids involved in both divorces. Sure work had something to do with it. But then again so did every single aspect of our lives. If you are blaming your job, I'd ask you to look inward and see what the job has done to you. Divorce happens because two people can no longer get along. This may happen because of communications, it may happen because the two of you become "different people" or because you have changed in some other fundamental way. Or maybe it was a difference you were able to overlook back when the sex was so damned good.
Look no further than yourself, you will find the answers there when you are ready to be honest with yourself.
Divorce is no fun and it is seldom just one person's fault. It does not need to ruin you though. Get over it and get on with your life. If you want to write the thesis as an act of self-discovery, do it but don't burden your prof with it because he will see it for what it is and that is most assuridly not a thesis but rather an auto-biography of one persons rather difficult and probably bitter experience.
You are simply damned if you do and damned if you don't when it comes to being a husband these days. With most women, you just simply can't win anymore.
Either you put 110% into your career and as a consequence of your long working hours you neglect the inflated emotional needs of your wife, or else you work a regular 9-5 job where you can make enough money to support yourself, but certainly not enough to support a family with a middle class lifestyle.
Most women don't consider men who don't make well beyond the national income average (around 40K a year) as marriage material, especially if they don't already own property. Try buying a home on 40K a year in a state like California. Good Luck!
Plus most women these days come into a marriage with massive debt in the form of student loans and other expenses they racked up in their early 20's, so they NEED a guy who makes a lot of money just to rescue them from their financial nightmare which usually is the direct result of student loans for a degree in liberal arts or some other area of study which won't get you the kind of job you need to pay off massive student loans.
Now, to make the kind of income you need just to be considered "Marriage Material", in America you usually need to work your butt off unless of course you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth (which is a very small minority of men out there). Of course, if you work your butt off then you are probably not going to be coming home at 6:00 PM for dinner every night because your job/career demands that you get the job done because the reality is that if you don't get the job done, then you are going to have to find a job that does not pay enough to be considered "Marriage Material" by most women.
There was once a time in America's history when it was socially acceptable for men to work their butt off all day long and women would not complain, so long as their man brought home the bacon and he was not off spending his limited free time and resources on hookers or some subordinate such as a secretary. But now, men are expected to make enough money to support a middle-class lifestyle, while at the same time be home at a predictable time as if that is how the professional world (and especially the IT world) actually works. If a man doesn't seem to be earning enough money, or else he is working too much, then those are immediate grounds for divorce. In fact, in any state with no-fault divorce, a woman can divorce you at a whim, take most of the marital assets and then have you paying child support out the wazoo for kids you will be lucky to see for even more than a few times a month. And yes many women work these days , but shortly after they get married and pop out a few kids, few wives want to ever return to work full-time again and the statistics bear that out.
Hey, but look on the bright side, at least your are not in the military. Divorce among military families since the Afghanistan and Iraq war has been spiraling out of control as brave men and fathers are routinely rewarded for their hard service with Dear John letters from their soon to be ex-wives because they have been "neglecting their family". Even worse than that, their wives get uncontested permanent full custody of the children as well so when a father returns from his tour of duty, he finds he no longer can live in his own home, and that everything he truly fought for, deserted him while he was away defending the country.
Whatever you do, don't blame yourself and your own hard work for your wife leaving you. There may be other mitigating circumstances in why she filed for divorce, but if your only crime is working hard to support your family, well then she is the one with the problem and not you.
Step 1: Obtain assistance of professional peers by means of anecdotal evidence that the IT profession ruins marriage
Step 2: Write brilliant thesis detailing how marriages (but not families, no, you are still a good dad!! See anecdotal evidence!) are ruined by the evil profession that is IT - ESPECIALLY web design. Naturally, you get an A+, pass the course based on your unique understanding of the complexities of marriage in the IT world.
Step 3: Gain sympathy and understanding from those around you due to your brilliant thesis - which is well on its way to be published, of course.
Step 4: Use (now published with accolades) thesis to garner support in the courts as you fight for custody of your child. Just because you didn't have time for your marriage, doesn't mean you don't have time for your kid. IT professions are bad for *marriages* - not parenting! (see published thesis)
Yeah, good plan. Good luck with that.
"Of people on welfare who have children, only 10% have more than 4 kids."
only? ((and it is 4 or more actually in link, your statement makes sound even worse than they are!!))
What percent of all people with children have more than 4?
only thing i found from census bureau:
"In 2005, 10 percent of the nation's households contained five or more people, down from 21 percent in 1970. During the same time period, average household size declined from 3.14 to 2.57 people."
Since not all of that 10% of households with 5 or more will be single parents , you ARE saying that welfare moms have MORE kids than average !
That fails to dispute the previous poster. Nice try 10% did sound small...
now ?
But more honestly, as someone once famously posted, the only point of ask slashdot is to make fun of the people asking slashdot.
I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
my job as an IT consultant keeps me on the road 4-5 days a week, 48-50 weeks a year. I work in this position so that my wife can stay home and homeschool our son. I can say that when we nearly divorced last year that the pressure of being on the road all the time was a major contributing factor to our problems. But this was because I'm a road warrior moreso than that i'm in IT.
You're doing your thesis on this? Are you studying computers or counseling?
A better question is why would you put up with that crap?
I made a decision years ago to leave a job BECAUSE it impacted my family life. 80 - 120 hours per week, holidays included. I took a 30% pay cut to go elsewhere, but was up to my old salary before the year was out and only working 40 hours a week.
Now I'm still in IT, I take 2 week vacations to Hawaii, most weekends off and work no more than 46 hours a week on average. The key is (A) not putting up with that crap and if they won't budge, leave and (B) surrounding yourself with competent people who don't need you to hold their hands 24/7.
Do I carry a cellphone with paging? Yes, and it's used only during emergencies. Do I get paged at 2 AM sometimes? Yes, but I have 2 other people who can fill in when it gets bad.
You must prioritize your life and not blame your carreer because you didn't have the backbone and/or financial planning skills to not be in that situation. But mostly, find another job rather than destroy your life. I'd be happier working IT for a small privately owned company making 20% less than everyone else if it meant I had a happy home life. Money isn't everything. Family is.
I guess it all just boils down to what your priorities are. The first thing I told my new employer (where I'm now a partner/owner) was "I don't work on Sundays, just so you know."
Any job, in any field, can cause marital problems that can lead to divorce, but the problem is independent of any particular profession. The problem comes from a difference of understanding between you, your spouse, and your boss about how much priority your job takes over other stuff. In some cases the differences between your spouse and your boss may be irreconcilable, in which case you have no choice but to pick sides. If you do what your boss wants in such an instance, your family life will suffer, make no mistake.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
I was married to a beautiful girl, active, outdoorsy, and hot. I didn't devote too much time to my job, but I did devote too much energy to it. I was always drained after work; I didn't want to do anything, even on weekends. We used to do so much together, hiking, camping, shooting, even working on cars together. She had no interest in computers, but programming was my hobby *and* my job. I think she got lonely.
At any rate, she left me and I was too caught up in work and too tired to do anything about it. In case it wasn't obvious, I still miss her (been 7 years). I should never have devoted so much energy to a job that ultimately didn't give a damn about me. STUPID!
Well, this topic is about to fall off the Slashdot homepage, so I guess my comment is destined to languish in obscurity. However, let's do this for posterity.
There are many posts here making the point that it's ridiculous to blame your job for your divorce. They make the distinction that human beings make these choices, and the blame should fall there. It's a good point, although maybe some could have said it more kindly. But it doesn't change the fact that some work environments are extremely hostile to marriages.
I worked at software reporting tools company for a couple of years. At one point, there was a Web site redesign scheduled. As the sole Web person at the time, I worked 2 90+ hour weeks back to back. It was something like 16 days on, each day up at dawn, home at nearly midnight. I was a (relatively) new father. I didn't once speak to my daughter during that time -- I only saw her sleeping at night. I was OK with this because it was a very short-term crunch. But I was a little sad. I launched the redesign Sunday night, got a few hours of sleep, and arrived at work Monday morning at 7:30 AM. I wasn't expecting much, but some acknowledgement of my hard work would have been nice. My boss was there, livid. I don't even recall what the problem was, but it was minor. She ripped into me. I defended myself with the truth -- "I've worked 16 days in a row, I haven't seen my family, there aren't any more hours in the day!"
Her response? "You'll just have to find a way to do more!"
You can say that the people in the marriage are always the problem. You can say that it's a cop-out to blame external pressures. And I agree to a certain point. I was at a crossroads, and I could have chosen my job over my family at that moment. It would have been my choice, my consequences. But I also know that certain types of people can and will take advantage. Certain people do NOT care about anything other than their own goals, and if they can manipulate a young, inexperienced worker bee into slaving away, so be it. If the worker bee crashes & burns, "maybe that worker bee wasn't cut out for the job." It is a fairly heartless way to interact with people, and to some degree, I think such people are not blameless for the pain that follows.
Oh, and I'm still married. I work freelance, my own schedule. We have income that is nowhere near what I used to make, but I'm way the hell happier.
My Greasemonkey scripts for Digg &
Wait a minute! Who said marriages were supposed to last?
The time that elapses between steps 2 and 3 is variable. Late-term abortions are generally held to be dangerous, not to mention the moral quandries associated with them. Sometimes the father is a dead-beat who doesn't leave (or leaves after the child is born), but provides no financial support, or worse, spends money.
Personally, being pro-choice, I support a woman's right to choose. Were I woman, and were I in a similar situation, I might choose to have an abortion. But I think it's important to recognize the psychological strife that comes with ending the life growing inside of you. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that it's not an agonizing decision for most women, even those that are pro-choice. For me, respecting a woman's right to choose means also respecting her choice to keep the child. If she can't pay for it herself, I don't think giving her a measily 7000 dollars a year is too much of a burden on the American taxpayer, given the other things we pay for (like billion dollar stealth bombers the military doesn't even want.) But I'm making a value judgement there, based on my own politics. You might disagree, which is your perogative.
Everything else aside though, the "just have an abortion" response is pretty callous, and if you think about it, it's easy for you to say because, and this is important, you will never have to decide whether or not having an abortion is the right decision or the wrong one. It's like non-smokers who tell a lifelong addict to "just quit smoking." It might be the right response, but it's much easier said than done. A person who has successfully quit smoking generally has a great deal more empathy for people who have trouble kicking the habit than people who have no frame of reference. I hate to sound sexist, but as men, we are biologically incapable of having a frame of reference when it comes to abortion.
We will never have more than anecdotal evidence to bring to bear when it comes to subjects like pregnancy, period cramps, and abortion. A little bit of humility goes a long way here.
I see this happen to often the job is wrong. Engineers doing a job work to much hours a week. And spend to less attentions to their family life. Not because they dont want but often they cannt because of how much they work A lot of them are burned out early also it's much the same You wouldnt have that if you would have been a painter for example. A painter would say it's 17:30 i'm going home i'll be back the next day. While your boss tells you custommer xx database is down help, and he will keep telling you that because after customer X we got Y and then Z, and then we start all overagain with A, B... (it never ends) As people in IT are to afraid to loose their job they do just to much. This is not in balance with their sallery. Not only that it's not in balance with a promice of mariage to be there when your girl needs you, and thats so wrong, so damn wrong!! so it this must be told for once
I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change.
Any yetinsyny woman worth her weight in yak hair will fully support you leaving your go-nowhere soul-sucking slackless Con job. A faithful and true Connietite will understand your duty in promoting patriopsychoanarchomaterialism being first-and-foremost the 'king of your castle'. If you're not subgenius, please keep toiling away as a miserable mediocretin. Pathetic pinkboys with the spines of jellyfish deserve every lingering lash of their demonic taskmaster's whip. If you want to know what you really think and to learn how to pull the wool over your own eyes - send $30 to "Bob" and "get right" with the only Man that matters, you schmuck. Sure you'll still get whipped mercilessly but it'll be a whip of your choosing, wielded by a smiling beacon of slack and not some middle-management goon. www.subgenius.com Eternal Salvation or Triple Your Money Back!
If "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and "it was beauty that killed the beast" then "please stop staring at me".
If you are stupid enough to get married what happens in divorice is your tough sh_t. No one can ever make a bitch happy.
Everyone has an excuse, but usually we need to look internally to find out what causes relationships to split up. IT is convenient because of the time consuming tasks involved but when you look deeper usually its due to ignoring the spouse after work because your spending all your fee time on the computer as well. Gaming, Email, IRC and even posting on Slashdot can make a spouse feel a bit neglected. At one point early in my married life I was spending more time at the computer after work than at work...it lead to my wife having an affair. At first I just wanted to end it, but reluctantly agreed to counseling. I came to realize that the problems that led to the affair were more my fault than anything. My wife said she did it to get my attention, it worked. I changed my habits, my wife and I now have time that the computer is off limits and we have been happy for 15 years now. The bottom line is your job doesnt have to define your life, dont neglect those around you and keep the office and home life separate as much as possible.
Really.
People who get divorced always say 'he/she changed!' Bull. They were always that way you just ignored it because they were good in bed/had money/you had low self esteem.
I don't think my IT job was the cause of my divorce (In fact I was only working half time for a dot-bomb at the time, got laid off 5 days after my wife moved in with her boyfriend).
But at my new job, we do have a standing joke to rate the complexity/stress of a just-completed project by the number of divorces that occured among everybody concerned.
The worst I've worked on was a 3 divorce project, but that's probably low in bigger organizations.
(We had one one guy who got married and divorced during the same project)
Real SUV's don't have cupholders
It's 5:42 A.M., do you know where your stack pointer is?
If Girlfriend 5.0 spawns a child process, a Child Support thread also starts. And it cannot be terminated until many run time conditions are met.
Are you kidding? Computers is a high paying, generally short hours, low stress job. If this gives you a divorce, anything would.
BTW... I feel for your situation personally. There's a good chance that your wife may have a very tough time accepting her own illness. Here's a good site talking about depression and its symptoms:
http://www.dbsalliance.org/info/depression.html/
That you totally disregard a woman's point of view since your OP only invited 'computer dads' to respond. You might want to look right there for the source of your problem.
we have 9 people in our IT unit and only one divorce (and I think it was HER career that caused the problem there, not his)
Never marry a stripper.
Sometimes my arms bend back.
I did not graduate from college. Mind you, I appreciate the importance of a degree, and plan to get one, but the timing hasn't been right. I am working in IT, and pretty much at the top of my game right now. Right now, my income is around 250K ($US). That's a far cry from selling movie tickets or burgers. It's not Donald Trump or Bill Gates money, but it's enough for a comfortable living.
This is posted as AC because I don't feel a need to brag about my income, just stating it to prove my point. Yes, college is useful in many ways, but it isn't necessarily the be-all-end-all or employment. If you're truly good at what you do (and have experience and references to back it up), you can substitute for a lot of education.
Incredibly stupid? Why even get married then... if you aren't going to stick it out? The way you talk, its stupid for people to realize that a disagreement is not the end of the world... and stay in their marriage.
And "American" has nothing to do with it. If anything, "Americans" these days don't "man up" and own ANY responsibility or decisions. Its always someone else's fault, its always someone else's burden to carry, its always all about *me*. Being married means that you are going to stick with a person, love them, through the good and the bad. If you don't want the bad, then don't get married -- because it comes with the territory.
He will not be able to derive any conclusions from this quest, because he will get nothing but a series of random anecdotes.
I find his quest to be an exceedingly odd one. It would have never occurred to me in a million years to associate my career in software with my marriage.
The probability of me getting a divorce is about as close to zero as imaginable. That's because of the priorities I have, and the kind of person I am, and the extreme care that I took in selecting my partner.
None of that has anything whatsoever to do with the fact that I happen to have a knack for software development.
I agree with a few others here that your job is not the necessarily the reason your Wife has decided to leave you.
e eds.html
Ask yourself this:
Did you concisely show her AFFECTION? i.e. go out of your way to hold her hand in public and in front of her family and friends?
Did you have 'DATE NIGHTS'?
Did you show 'family commitment' by spending time with your family?
Did you focus much of your time working about just the "providing" part of your roll as a husband?
If any of these things get a YES for an answer, YOU have left your wife in need.
I will grant you, you may not have known any better and tried your best to make her happy, but I think you are suffering from a lack of skill in the marriage department.
Please take a look at two websites to get help if you want a chance to save your marriage.
1. www.marriagebuilders.com
2. www.survivingbetrayal.com (it's a site about affairs, but also to get help about why your wife is leaving you)
Here are some books to take a look at as well:
His Needs and Her Needs by Dr. Harley.
Here is a link: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6020_n
Best value for $20 you will ever get!
If two people want a divorce because they're no longer attracted to one another, or because they have disagreements about money, or family, or any number of other very fundamental things, it's incredibly stupid to suggest that they should stay together "for the marriage."
In The Great Divorce, C.S. Lewis describes Hell (or maybe Purgatory; it's never fully explained) as a place where people can build whatever they want just by thinking about it.
The natural result is that soon, people are living literally thousands or millions of miles away from each other, because every time there is a disagreement or one person is irritated by another, they construct something bigger and far away so they don't need to deal with that person.
I think the U.S. is striving to create this kind of society. We live in bigger and bigger houses, farther and farther away from each other, watch television and play video games instead of talking to each other, masturbate to porn instead of making love to other people who may not be liposuctioned or enhanced just the way we like or might not feel like it when we do or even might possibly reject us.
If you leave someone every time you don't happen to feel attracted to them, or have a disagreement about money, or family, or something else fundamental, how can you ever be intimate with someone, love someone, know someone beyond a superficial level?
Maybe sometimes, a relationship, love, is worth sacrificing for?
Peace be with you,
-jimbo
XML Tools for Mac OS X
Totally agree. Communication is fundamental. And avoiding the conflict will just make it grow (this is Conflict Management 101 straight out of management classes).
."
I've fought a TON with my wife. But she has security because she knows now that I won't leave her over a bad fight. Whereas we've had friends (married couples) who had a bad fight and it ends with: "Fuck you, bitch. I'm calling a lawyer." Fighting used to scare the hell out of her. And some of our fights have been months in length -- on and off. But it works out, eventually.
I think the big difference these days is that women can actually speak out these days. 50 years ago, they used to just stifle and not say a word. These days, a wife will walk up to a husband and say, "I don't care if you bring home the money, you're a fucking idiot for doing
I don't think a lot of men can deal with that kind of confrontation. I think most men just think, "Look, I'm bringing home 100k a year, I'm feeding you, I'm clothing you, you just need to shut up." Those days are over.
I hope you don't expect to use any of this as valid information.
The human is poligam by nature. Living and sleeping with the same woman all your life is an almost impossible thing to do.
Once I has been told that an old arab proverb stated something like:
"The age of the perfect woman for you equals your age divided by two plus seven"
So if her_age = your_age / 2 +7 then:
At 13 you deserve a 13.5 year old girl
At 16 you get a 15 year old girl
At 20, her's goes to 17. Not bad uh? but wait..
At 30, she should be 22!!!
At 40, she should be 27!!!!
At 80, 47
And so on.
See the pattern? In order to get the perfect woman for you, every year, you have to change her for a new one each year.
Yes, it may be agonizing for some random person who got knocked up without planning to but how the fuck is that my (wallets) problem? Make responsible choices or crash and burn.
My parents have been married -- and still are -- since the 60s. My father's been working in IT since the 70s. I've been working in IT since the mid 90s, and my marriage is strong/kids are happy.
Er, I don't have a point here, except to say that working in IT is not a guarantee of marital strife.
I'm not at all surprised. The IT world is full of driven people. Smart, motiviated people who love to solve problems get addicted to the constant positive feedback their brain craves with each small increment in software development (or other problem-solving profession). There is a preception that "I'm on a role" - I just need 15 more mintues (and then 15 more and 15 more and 15 more... before you know your wife was expecting you home hours ago).
The delimia is that IT jobs are typically taken by people who love IT jobs. Their work is their pleasure. And there is always work to be done. Add in pressure from a boss, or upper level managment, or customers, who can blame an IT guy for living at work?
However the perception that you can't leave work is just that. It's a perception. You actually can leave. You may not want to. You may feel obligated to stay and finish "one more line of code" - but your feeling guilty for leaving is something that you have to come to terms with on your own.
We all make choices - and leaving a wife and kids at home for the bennefit of work is the sacrifice we all make. What time should you be home? What time should you leave for work in the morning? How many hours should you stay at work? Those are all choices. You will do what you feel makes you happiest. Those choices may be at conflict with what your family wants.
That is not the jobs fault. That is not the industries fault. It is simply the choice you have made. An easy choice? Maybe not. An active choice? maybe not. But a choice non-the-less.
BTW:
I find it humerous that there are huge number of Triathletes that come form the IT World (my self included). Triathletes also have a high divorce rate (not including me). There are only so many hours in the day to do all the things one wants to do. Personally I have shoved my workout schedule to the side and try to limit my hours at work - I have a new son and I am not willing to let him become the secondary part of my world.
-CF
I agree that if your family is or wants to be supportive, they don't usually require a lot of time each day. What my wife and kids DO require is some amount of time, however limited, that is theirs and theirs alone (nearly) every day. Also, they need to know that whatever else is taking my time is in pursuit of some concrete, beneficial goal.
I have bedtime traditions with my kids. Not the same one every night, but a handful we can use on different nights depending on everyone's energy level. Sometimes I wrestle with them before bedtime. Sometimes I read to them out of a slim blue volume of Robert Louis Stevenson's poems for children. With my daughter I'm teaching her a song in French; sometimes we dance around the livingroom and sing together. With my oldest son I'm now listening to him learn to read before bedtime.
None of those take more than fifteen minutes each, but they happen (nearly) EVERY night, at or about the same time, and my children and I have come to count on them.
With my wife it's similar. Some nights we're lucky, and all three kids are asleep early enough that we can talk (and do other things) for some time. Other nights we're really tired but we make time to exchange a simple kiss or two when passing in the hallway, or to rub each others' shoulders, or something.
I guess if I have anything to add to the parent post it's that you need to sell your family on the benefits of whatever else is consuming your time. If your family truly believes that what you're doing is in pursuit of some shared goal, there's less resentment at your being busy. Couple that with consistent time together, even if it's short, and it sends the message "I value you" rather than "I don't have time for you." I myself am very task-focused and tend to deal brusquely with interruptions when I'm focused on something, so when I'm with my family I try to be WITH them, and I apologize when I'm too harsh.
I'm rambling a bit, and I'm deeply sorry if this post is hard to read for the original poster since he's past the stage where these ideas have any value for his current situation. But I wanted to chime in with my two cents in support of the immediate parent post to this one, which contains a lot of useful wisdom.
so how did she deal with the pay cut?
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
IT didn't cause your divorce. Getting married caused your divorce. And who do you have to blame but yourself and your wife, for that?
-Don
Take a look and feel free: http://www.PieMenu.com
"If you leave someone every time you don't happen to feel attracted to them, or have a disagreement about money, or family, or something else fundamental, how can you ever be intimate with someone, love someone, know someone beyond a superficial level? Maybe sometimes, a relationship, love, is worth sacrificing for?"
Nice straw man.
I didn't say that couples should split up "every time" they had problems. I argued that it's incredibly stupid for two people to stay together for the sake of an institution. That said, consider the universe of relationships outside of the institution of marriage -- people are regularly intimate, loving and caring with one another without the need for a sacrament or legal framework to bind them.
Only the pious seem to have the (perverse) need to force couples to stay together in the face of obvious evidence to the contrary. We would all be much happier if we allowed our relationships to form, develop and -- if necessary -- dissolve without penalty or social stigma, in order to meet our intellectual, sexual, and social needs.
May you be touched by His noodly appendage,
-tim
Let's try not to let fact interfere with our speculation here, OK?
Incredibly stupid? Why even get married then... if you aren't going to stick it out? The way you talk, its stupid for people to realize that a disagreement is not the end of the world... and stay in their marriage. If anything, "Americans" these days don't "man up" and own ANY responsibility or decisions. Its always someone else's fault, its always someone else's burden to carry, its always all about *me*. Being married means that you are going to stick with a person, love them, through the good and the bad. If you don't want the bad, then don't get married -- because it comes with the territory.
What a very feisty rant. Two points:
1) You meant to respond to the grandparent post, not the parent.
2) "Being married" means that you have certain legal rights and obligations. Everything else is a strictly personal interpretation and/or value judgment, and as such, is relevant only to you. Hence, my argument: it is incredibly stupid to stay in a non-functional relationship (or to argue thereof) for the "sake" of a marriage. A marriage is a thing, not a value.
My argument does not preclude responsibility, love, decision-making or morality. It does, however, preclude the unnecessary psychological damage that unhappy couples inflict on one another in the name of religious and social dogma.
Let's try not to let fact interfere with our speculation here, OK?
I'm currently in the process of getting a divorce, but it had nothing to do with my work. In fact, before my wife took off, my boss tried to minimize extra hours to I could concentrate on saving my marriage. The problem was, however, my wife's 15 year old daughter (my stepdaughter) who was completely out of control because my wife didn't have the backbone to put limits on the kid. It wasn't something as simple as occasionally staying out a bit late. The kid was getting drunk on a daily basis, refused to go to school, would run away for days at a time, often with no clue as to who she was with or what she did. The topper was when my wife refused to intervene when her daughter started dating a 21 year old guy who was supplying her with cocaine and alcohol and having a sexual relationship. Even when I handed my wife the evidence, the full AIM chat logs where she brags to her friends, my wife refused to believe it. For me, this was the final straw and I contacted the police.
So now I'm getting a divorce and my wife continues to live a life of delusion about her daughter. I expect CPS to step in and do something in the near future.
you work as a contractor (no health benefits or vacation time) from leaving the house at 6AM and getting home around 8 or 9 (sometimes later) at night. do this 6 days a week , dig trenches to lay cable lug a heavy ladder around and crawl in attics at 120+ degrees, then spend most of Sunday cleaning out your cable rig and getting ready for another run. it's $1200 a week the hard way, it either keeps you young or ages you before your time I'm not sure which yet.
Me thinks you Likely just spend too much time reading slashdot instead of "Tickling the Wife" as we in the Cable business call it.
"The Most Fun Possible on 4 wheels" is at SunBuggy in Las Vegas
brilliant!
Funny story here.... I was a Nurse/Respiratory Therapist for about 12 years before I went into IT...During that time, I went through 2, count them, 2 wifes...Now that I have been in IT for about 12 years, I have only had ONE wife, and she accepts that sometimes the job comes before the marriage, but I make it up to her when I can, and she knows I will. I think ANY job can cause a divorce if you let it. Either a Dr., Lawyer, IT guy, Wedding videographer, or wetf you decide to do, just make sure if you get married, you know the person, and that they understand you have a demanding job. SHIT!!! I sound like SUCH A SISSY!!!! :o)
"My immediate reaction is "WTF? What kind of moron doesn't make things 64-bit safe to begin with?" Linus
In my case (which did not end in divorce), I was pretty confident I could find work in most other geographic areas because of my field, which made it easier for me to consider leaving. It absolutely did enter into the equation. Other than that, I can't see any particular evidence or basis for believing that being in IT would make divorce more likely.
"geek" has no social skills.
And apparently, whatnot, you have seen sufficient "evidence" from my post indicative of that matter.
Totally irrelevant.
I have been involved in 4 different clubs in university, did the vice presidency of one of them, which was not a club but even more of a technical department anyways, and also in the meantime i have become involved and worked in a respectable position in a big political party that was the main opposition then.
all these without counting the social organization and stuff i did over the internet.
A very common misconception that is very easily and mistakenly slapped to so-called 'geek's forehead or to the people who do not very much prefer to PHYSICALLY get out of the location and pre-historically come face to face with MANY other people.
If we had internet back then, i would very much prefer to do many stuff over the net, social wise, because it saves you HUGE amounts of time, and prevents unneccessary energy&time wastage for doing trivial social contact.
Internet provides me with much more social contact, on MY initiative. Rather than trying to chance the schedules with some other 4 guys once every month and "see" them by spending a considerable amount of time and effort to meet, i can get into contact with over 80+ people in icq, 40+ people in msn. And a great many of them overseas people.
There are times that one needs to close down instant messengers to feel alone. If used in correct manner, internet amenities can provide THAT much social interaction.
The same thing that was valid in physical contact is still valid on the internet too - less quantity, more quality. Choose who you get around yourself, even in an instant messenger, and you may get phenomenonal amount of pleasure from a simple text chat too.
So please spare me the stereotypical understanding of "people who sit in front of computer dont do any social" crap that is only befitting of a grandmother who has no idea what the hell this internet thing is.
Read radical news here
Married at 18. In the military for 10 years, 3 years of that doing rigous training (about 12-18/hr day) and 5 years on a submarine away from home a minimum of 50% of the time in cycles of ~100 days at a time with ZERO outgoing communications to the outside world. I did luck out and both of my kids were born while I was in port. It takes a strong willed spouse to handle that stuff alone and far away from the rest of their own family. I am out of the military now and for the last 8 years I have been climbing up the IT ladder and average about 8 to 12 hours a day. We have been married for 17 years and still going. Kids are 15 and 16.
Don't blame a divorce on your work, it is a combination of you and/or your spouse not getting what each wants. It may not be your direct fault the other feels let down but everyone is different and has different needs and more often then not, the other one feels those needs are not justified. Neither person is right or wrong.
"You, by now definitely thinking that this is a macho post ... and im laying all the blame on women."
Why, yes I am. I can't believe a post saying, and I quote, "women are faulty" got an "insightful" score.
That is of course without reading the latter part of the sentence & post that clearly states "women are faulty IN THIS". in this = case at hand. so no surprise you cant believe why this got an insightful score.
Sure, women have a biological drive to find a secure, loving home to raise children. Even if we choose not to raise a family, we still are wired to be in and part of a loving, caring environment. It's not a fault, it's a virtue that ensures the future of the human race.
When this biological drive to create or be in a loving, secure home starts being in expense of another (male here) soul's expense, there is a problem in that. We, the mankind is not striving to exist just for the existance's sake. We strive to live more fulfilled lives. So, if women tend to turn males to puppets that only feed the herd, by using their emotional superiority, this is exploitation without intention.
Besides, if you never "get out and do something", you'll quickly become obese, lethargic, and die of a heart attack at the age of 40. Who wants to be married to that?
another misperception here, despite i spend VERY much time in front of the computer, and eat everytime i feel like it, im 1.83 cm in height and 75-80 kg in weight. Which proportions are just appropriate for enlisting in the air force academy that has the tightest health requirements in my country.
We live in a world of misperceptions, as you can easily see.
Read radical news here
And curiously, you are an anonymous coward here, in your post. Which makes me wonder.
I, a supposed geek, am deliberately expressing opinions about what i have EXPERIENCED in around my life and the people's lives around, a spectrum of people in many ways and alleys of life, yet, your response is just like reprimanding a way out of control husband, albeit in a more fierce manner.
What i see in your post is emotional belittlement and supression of opposite idea, which is EXACTLY the thing i wrote that lenghty post for.
Bad experiences with women - and where did the hell you come with that from ? - Well, one can definitely go into many types of unfounded assumptions when s/he tries to supress an opposite idea cant s/he ?
I, myself suggest you take a look on your post and see that your post alone proves my point.
Read radical news here
being 40 years married for now, makes them at least 60 years old.
Those generations were different from today's generations. Then the values of sincerity, fidelity, sacrifice etc were more emphasized and seen important.
Today's generations have generally grown up in leisure conditions, at least acceptable environments. They have been urged to go to be the best, to get the best, to enjoy life etc.
As a result most of the female members are little princesses, and males are princes.
They marry, and they think that marriage is going to be a place where the attention and effort is still focused on them, like in the parents' house or the college.
Both, after a while sees it is not so. Then problems arise.
Read radical news here
In IT the only reason I see of failed marriage is when your wife start picking up support calls..
I dont get why people pose doing sports as an "obligatory" thing.
People fail to realize that every body has its unique psyhology, with its own biorhytm and such.
I dont do sports. i sit in front of computer. i dont go out much. i eat whenever i want.
Yet im still 1.83 cm and 75-80 kg, and healthy.
The main thing is to listen to your body and tend to ITS needs, not what society thinks it needs.
Read radical news here
If we find the toilet seat down, we put it up and do our thing. We dont yell or bitch about it being up or down.
WHY dont women do the same ?
Read radical news here
Me thinks your lack of social skillz and interaction has everything to do with divorce, not your profession. I've worked for Big Blue, MSFT, and others in my 15+ years in IT and have never gotten divorced. Look into the mirror and not the monitor :)
Nerds dont get married, silly geek.
This is Slashdot. We don't have sex.
What are you doing now, you lazy drunken obscene unsayable son of an unnameable gipsy obscenity?
Ah. Here is where you and I differ. To me, all marriages become "non-functional" at some point. They go in and out. It is a long-term commitment that has its cycles -- some great, some good, some bad, some really bad. But the love and the commitment to the partner is what keeps the union together. The "institution" (the only word I can think of) is really only symbolic. A "marriage" is *supposed* to a stronger institution. Stronger than your usual, six-month, fuck-buddy stint. I'm not religious at all, but the word "marriage" is the only term I can use to describe a relationship that is meant to be stronger/longer than the usual "boyfriend/girlfriend" relationship.
I'm starting to think that the only difference between you and I is where we consider it "stupid" to stick around. You probably have a much shorter fuse than I do. For you, you'd consider me stupid to stick around in certain situations. For me, I'd probably consider you stupid for not sticking around in a particular situation.
Not sure we can resolve that difference.
If we find the toilet seat down, we put it up and do our thing. We dont yell or bitch about it being up or down.
;)
WHY dont women do the same ?
Way offtopic, but it's a struggle for dominance thing. You are being tested to see how you will react to an irrational and illogical request. It sets the tone for the rest of the interactions between you and that person.
Ah, the great Slashdot, bastion of toilet politics.
I was in a similar situation. I work for IBM, rather I just put in my two weeks notice. I was working 84+ hour weeks, 12-hour days 7 days a week for 15 to 20 days at a time. This did not include commute time. This added some stress to my marriage. I chose to quit rather than destroy my family.
The norm in IT is long overtime hours, oncall hours (The number of people woken up for an emergency conference call are always insane. The pay is nice, but it's a trade off.
There comes a time when you have to ask yourself if the job is worth your life, or if your life is worth more than money. I chose the latter, I hope you find something that will make you happy.
I didn't say that couples should split up "every time" they had problems.
Every other time? Every third time? You said couples should split up if they had "fundamental" problems. So if you're not saying every time, then how many? Give me a number.
We would all be much happier if we allowed our relationships to form, develop and -- if necessary -- dissolve without penalty or social stigma, in order to meet our intellectual, sexual, and social needs.
What a weaselly construction. "Relationships" are not animate beings. They don't just "form, develop,...,dissolve" like a chemical solution. To be worth anything, people must actively invest in them, sacrifice for them, work at them. No social need for commitment? No social need for unconditional love? No social need to learn compromise instead of giving up after your encounter a "fundamental" problem? Oh, sorry, forgot, we still need to attach a number to qualify that. Get back to me with that number when you get a minute.
-jimbo
XML Tools for Mac OS X
Very well thought out post, and also fairly compassionate.
I'm facing a similar situation right now--My "official, billable" hours are gradually creeping above the 55/week mark, with 1-2hr/day extra. It's hurting my social life, hurting my hobbies, and could be hurting my marriage.
I've got enough confidence in my skills and abilities that I've said, 'enough is enough. Either we fix this together, or I walk.' My superiors want to keep me and have seen enough people burn out that they're working on fixing this with me--according to a relatively definite timeline.
But ten years ago when I first jumped into IT, or fifteen years ago when I was fresh out of University, I'm not sure I would have been sure enough of myself and my future to stand up to horrid conditions. If I'd started dating my wife before the Y2K crunch came along, would our relationship have worked? Hard to say.
Basically, it's easy to look back at such situations and know that you need to walk away. It's also easy to be young and believe that you'll recognise such a situation and walk away. It's really not all that easy when you're the guy in the middle of it, and you're facing down either a career or a marriage, knowing you can't take both of them home without serious changes. Financial security is a really strong incentive, and can drive a wedge between people far too easily.
However, the OP clearly recognises his problem. I suspect that a lot of the hostility here is that on a subconscious level, people are willing to allow mistakes like this when the subject is unaware, but once they KNOW what the problem is, failure to fix it seems a sign of weakness.
Whether it is, I can't say. All I know is that I'm now at the point where I'll take less money to spend more time with my wife.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Think about wanting to be a manager with that in mind.
--Chag
I think the fact that you are posting a message here asking if IT caused your divorce gives a pretty good explanation of what really caused your divorce.
Work can be hard, but not just IT work. And jobs can affect your life, but ultimately you determine how you let things affect you and how it affects your relationships with other people.
Sorry about your divorce, but its not that uncommon. People grow apart. There doesn't necessarily have to be a cause you can put your finger on, and you may never have an explanation. You have to let it go.
Cuckoldry (~10% from a UK blood bank) is a stark reminder of women's independence. Sure, female infidelity is less frequent and better hidden than male. Because of more severe consequences. But ~40% isn't zero.
And that is precisely my point: everyone, including women have free will. "If you treat her right, she will stay" is mechanistic and maybe even mercenary. Some women will never leave, even if mistreated. Some will always leave even if not. If you have difficulty with this concept, tryin inverting the genders. Hint: not every man would cheat if he could. Some of us are smart enough to know better.
Hi, I have seen this many times in Japan, even among foreigners. Many IT people do not have a "sense of time" and "priorities" and their jobs require extreme concentration. When you develop a family, this can cause destruction. Also, IT people do not "normally" have Job Stability as compared to other jobs. IT people move from job to job and from place to place putting stress on the family in the long run, which tends to build up over time and then blowup like a bomb. As I said, I have seen many good and honest people get crushed by this. But as IT is young mans domain, this especially tends to happen to those who stay in the field after middle age. Then either you are in management or working at McDonalds pushing burgers. Most companies don't want middle age IT people because as one ages they become "out of sink" with developments and engraved into the old ways to do things. Young people bring in new knowledge base and the enthusiasm to work hard for 20 hours a day at a cheap cost. Older people tend to have families, need to leave at 5pm and don't want to work on the weekends and demand 20 times the cost of the younger workers. So out with the old, except in niche areas where the younger ones need to pick up your knowledge so they can get rid of you ASAP. So then you are on the short end of the stick, they call that "consultancy" to give people a sense of importance before they can you. So the only ones that survive are those that go into management and then work like a dog at half their previous salary as a programmer. Yes, IT probably has the "highest" divorce rate of all industries combined. ...
I don't think my profession caused my divorce.
Am I happy? Five years out the answer is still no. Are my kids happy? Yes.
It takes a monumental amount of work to make it so, IMNSHO. Society places little emphasis on keeping dads in their kids' lives. The general consensus of the divorce machinery is dad is better used as an ATM than a care giver.
Sad that all serious studies show the presence of a father to have a tremendously positive effect on children.
The best advice I can give is to understand the system is against you, you _will_ lose a lot of money and a lot of sleep, and receive a lot of heartache. Do everything in your power to stay connected with your kids at all costs. It'll suck for you but maybe, just maybe, it will suck less for them.
Did your wife finally find out that you're a dick smoking linux fag? I say good for her, you fucking filthy faggot. If she needs a real man send her my way, I'll add her to my collection of bitches.
Tough question. When she left, my ex blamed everything about me. For most of the 10 years I had worked hard, with several periods when I worked late nights, and weekends. She didn't seem to particularly resent me for the actual hours, but she did seem to not accept that I was often tired, and stressed when at home. She put quite a extra load on me, in helping out with the house work and kids. I agree with the poster who said that there are some women who are like cats, which sit on the keyboard, just because they resent the attention you are giving it. I mainly remember feeling drained the whole time. My biggest regret is that I didn't do more to protect myself from the extra demands.
I think that it is reasonable for a man with a promising career to put in extra hours, especially in hi 20's and 30's. It's a bit tough that this is the time when the children are small, but a good wife will support her husband in his career, and help him to make the most of the time that he has with her and the children, rather than making this time just another stress for him. I've seen several very happy marriages work like that.
The hardest challenge as a divorced, custodial father were certainly the practical ones - holding my job, while running a house, and trying to give the kids some personal attention. If the housework is getting behind, then everything else will fall apart quickly. I put my personal life on hold for about 3 years, while I got on top of things. The next biggest challenge is being happy in oneself. Keeping busy, and avoiding alcohol, is a good start. Then you have to start finding one or two pleasant recreations which take only a small amount of time, but give something back for you. Having work you enjoy is a big plus. And, you've got to keep your job! It can be very tough at times, but make sure that your personal traumas don't interfere too much with your work.
The kids have been reasonably happy, and turned out OK. I am sure they would have been happier without the divorce, but I think that I did the best I could in the circumstances. And I think that's show's how much you care, that you included that question.
Don't pay any attention to all the people here who are telling you that the divorce is your fault. It may, or may not be. They don't know. No amount of "working" at a relationship will work if one of the parties wants out. Sure, you've got faults, perhaps you put too much into work. Well, here's some news - a lot of people have faults, and your wife might have had some too. You don't leave someone because they've got faults.
Good luck with it all, and I especially hope that it turns out well for your child.
- Javaman
I'm a software visionary. I don't code.
Could it be that it wasn't your career, but your obsession with computing and lack of life balance that did it?
I mean, it's not like a career in IT AND working on a post-graduate degree at the same time, while trying to maintain a marriage and raise a kid is what one would term a "low key schedule". In such a situation, if your career is doing well/better than average and your schooling is going well, you ARE neglecting family members. Two years of multiple day/evening classes, plus course work and papers, on top of 40+ hours a week makes it difficult to get out and get drunk once a week with buddies if you're single or uncommitted. A kid and a wife? Just asking for trouble.
If you're going to school and working full time, and your wife isn't, then I suspect you mis-paired yourselves anyway - she should've been doing something to help alieviate your work burden so you could better pay attention to her and your schooling, and in general be an emotionally healthier person.
FWIW, married, 2 kids (well, 1, but the 2nd is due this week), just finishing up my bachelors in IT, and here-and-there work to make ends meet. I could not maintain a "career" in IT at this point without going insane from lack of "me time" (or "sleep time"); if I were single and childless, it would be another story. Relationships and raising children take effort, but MOST IMPORTANTLY time, to not end up with a broken product.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Some people fail at 2, 3, or more marriages. They drive up the numbers.
The chance of any 1 person being divorce-free is much better than 50%.
Tip: divorce runs in families. Be wary of this when you choose.
"Every other time? Every third time? You said couples should split up if they had "fundamental" problems. So if you're not saying every time, then how many? Give me a number."
Do you know what a straw man argument is? Your insistence that I "give you a number" either totally misses, or totally ignores the statement that I made: it is stupid to stay in a relationship "for the sake of" an institution. On the other hand, you have consistently ignored the last sentence in my post: people should stay together because they want to stay together.
In other words, Jimbo, people should stick togther through difficult times because they still see value in their relationship. Not because a preacher said "no divorces," not because divorces give the pope indigestion, and certainly not because some nutball believes that divorce "violates" the text of an internally-inconsistent, poorly-written book written before the dawn of modern civilization.
"What a weaselly construction. "Relationships" are not animate beings. They don't just "form, develop,...,dissolve" like a chemical solution. To be worth anything, people must actively invest in them, sacrifice for them, work at them."
Hey Jimbo....are you really trying to make an argument based on my use of the passive voice? (...you do know that I can say the same thing in the active voice, and it would mean the same thing, right?)
"No social need for commitment? No social need for unconditional love? No social need to learn compromise instead of giving up after your encounter a "fundamental" problem?"
Your words, not mine. Marriage is not a prerequisite for commitment, love or compromise. Therefore, divorce does not invalidate their existence.
(Also....I suppose you think you're being sneaky by slipping that "unconditional" in there...but really, you're just being absurd. As most of us know, a dog will love you unconditionally. A spouse has boundaries.)
Noodle on, Jimbo....
Let's try not to let fact interfere with our speculation here, OK?
It is indeed the fault of Jobs. Damn him and his sleek white machines and charm!
There is no one right way to live.
There are lots of different ways to live, and there are lots of different people who find different ways to live in ways that work for them. Not all of them involve marriage.
Unfortunately, this is a lesson that is not taught enough to people growing up. Kids are taught whatever tradition their family has - and typically this means one man, one woman, in a monogomous realtionship disconnected from all the other families and extended relations. Human tribes never evolved that way; people live now in separate family domiciles, and frankly it makes rearing children almost an impossible task.
Basically, the reason that 50% of marriges end in divorce comes from several factors: the extreme unhealth in sexual relations, leading to desparation and need for connection. Thinking that marriage will "solve" the need for connection with others, people rush into it, only to find that the process of bonding and determining the power relations between 2 people takes about 3 years to figure out. People need to DROP the idea that 1 on 1 marriage works for all people - it simply doesn't. People also need to WAIT more than 3 years while living with a person before they tie the knot.
you are actually quite right, it is about female psychology. it is a fact that women are on average lot more egocentric. the reason for it is very simple - biologically males are expendable, females are not.
but times has changed, human society now is very different to human society hunderds of thousands years ago. behaviour patterns which worked back then are serious dated now. males have adapted to the 21st century, females not, and this causes lots of problems.
there is a great german word for those who have modded you down: "berufsbetroffene". this word describes people who see it as their job being conserned and offended. they read your opinion and are offended about you being misogynic in their eyes. they are the same people who try to be overly political correct.
well, i've got news for all those bleeding hearts: males and females are NOT equal. equal rights, yes. but that's it. women are on average lot more egocentric and they listen more to their instincts and to their emotions than to their consciousness.
anyway, read more here
Conservatism: The fear that somewhere, somehow, someone you think is your inferior is being treated as your equal.
...and it is that relationships take effort on the part of both the people involved. The lesson is clear: ignore your mate or try to control them and you'll lose them. Everyone has a breaking point.
If you don't know what that point is, then you should reconsider a relationship with that person. If you don't think it exists, you should reconsider a relationship in the first place.
IT didn't cause my divorce- my ex-wife choosing to become "Chief Resident" in her residency did that. Or more specifically, my ex-wife choosing to leave did that.
People are people, and you'll always have problems. Arranged marriages won't solve them- they're specific to the people involved, and not amenable to any imposed solution.
Any attempt to place blame for a divorce square on a career/money/house/you-name-it ultimately misses the point that there's a wide variety of people out there, and there really are some with whom one cannot be compatible with (horrors!), and others who are. This may change with time or circumstance. Compatible one year and not the next.
What's the solution? There really isn't one. You can only do the best that you can, and hope that it's enough.
Don't forget to quote Hans Reiser in your dissertation, he obviously met the same issues than you and found some kind of definitive solution.... Joke apart it means that you need either infinite love for a relationship to work, or (and this is probably the same) very like-minded people who understand each other.
Google passes Turing test : see my journal
Yeah, groovy!
Somehow I doubt that the actual career of IT dads is the problem here. In my experience, IT professionals spend a lot of time with computers in their spare time as well. Computer games, hobby programming and all sorts of "digital hobbies" like photography, music or movie making, etc. are very popular with IT personnel, but also very time consuming.
Not just that, all if these hobbies usually come with large, active online communities. As a result, most of my friends who are in IT, like myself, have wives or girlfriends complaining of a lack of attention, personal contact hours or common interests. Now, you might say these women just aren't the right match for these men. But it's not like it would be any better if they had similar hobbies, in fact I'd say it would aggravate the situation.
Any career, if taken seriously, is demanding. And people in all fields bring their work and its problems home with them. But I think IT may be special in that it flows into personal life almost seamlessly and this is the true root of any structural marital problems in the field.
I don't think the computer industry is any more cause of marital strife than any other industry. Generally it's the non-techie managers who are the cause of the problem. Hiding information and buying the wrong/cheep equipment over the advise of their own IT dept. The thing is that in IT you're trying to fix something while putting up with this corporate BS. You usually find out what new direction your company is going by reading about it in the tech press. Usually announced at an awards seremony where some PHB awards himself an award for 'Internet visionary', what ever the heck that is. You're best bet to a happy marrage is to get a qualification in systems analysis, that way you don't actually have to do real work and get paid a lot more.
davecb5620@gmail.com
Been in IT for 15 years and travel globally for my company. Three kids and twelve happy years of marriage later (to the same woman) the key for us was my finding balance between work and life. I know a lot of IT guys who can't put their computers down "computersexuals" as that is their only life. When 5:00 PM hits, I step out of my desk and into the Dad / Husband role. From 8:00 PM to 9:00 PM I work a little more once the kids are asleep (while my wife does her thing) and then we do our thing. It's all about balance.
I'm not a troll, but I play one on Slashdot.
Not because a preacher said "no divorces," not because divorces give the pope indigestion, and certainly not because some nutball believes that divorce "violates" the text of an internally-inconsistent, poorly-written book written before the dawn of modern civilization.
And you accuse me of straw man arguments?
Marriage is not a prerequisite for commitment, love or compromise. Therefore, divorce does not invalidate their existence.
Divorce does not signify an end to commitment, a lack of love, or a decision that an issue is beyond compromise? There may be very good reasons for those things, but surely you can't deny that divorce is precisely a declaration that commitment, and likely love and compromise, have gone out of existence in that particular relationship?
I'm sure you're going to tell me I've misunderstood you again. Which is not surprising, because up to this point you've been steadily qualifying what you initially said further and further. Which is a good sign, because it indicates you now realize what you originally said doesn't make much sense.
Also, allow me go back to an earlier comment of yours.
That said, consider the universe of relationships outside of the institution of marriage -- people are regularly intimate, loving and caring with one another without the need for a sacrament or legal framework to bind them.
Are you against gay marriage? Have you paused to ask yourself why many gay people are so upset that this sacrament and legal framework are being denied to them? Maybe they're just nuts?
Or maybe, like other people, they see the value to themselves and to society of a public commitment with public rights and responsibilities tied to it. That's pretty much what marriage is.
You seem to have a bug up your butt about the fact that many people also want a sacrament associated with their commitment, also, but what business is that of yours? If two people feel strongly about expressing their commitment with a spiritual sacrament, why are you obligated to care one way or another?
-jimbo
XML Tools for Mac OS X
What people need to know about divorce...
The industry that has evolved from people wanting divorces is a huge cash cow machine for states' social services and often shabby lawyers who really care more about having a job and lining their pockets than the welfare of our citizens or our children. The biggest lie in divorces involving custody is that the court tries to make decisions "in the child's best interest". This is of course an entirely subjective definition which while in theory sounds like what we all want, in practice it runs completely afoul of the United States Constitution in violating multiple constitutional rights, particularly: the right to protection from unreasonable seizure, the right to due process, the right to equal protection under the law. Remember that our laws are not meant to be - nor should they be - the highest of moral standards but rather minimal standards in order to best protect everyone while still keeping people as free as possible.
No doubt many people will just simply not believe me when I tell you that men are routinely and commonly and unjustly denied their constitutional rights in divorce proceedings. Ignorance is bliss after all but then complacency is no virtue either. Meanwhile others will cry about how abused women are while others will say but women are just naturally better parents. If you don't believe me read what the other people say:
In a 66 page legal article in Volume 25, No. 4 (Summer 1998) Florida State University Law Review at http://www.law.fsu.edu/Journals/lawreview/download s/254/mcneely.pdf, Cynthia A. McNeely very clearly lays out the unconstitutionality of current divorce practices from its historical basis to its societal impact.
In a 32 page article published in Volume 1, Number 2 (1999) pp 123-150 University of Utah School of Law, Journal of Law & Family Studies at http://people.cohums.ohio-state.edu/hubin1/Researc h/PRDP.PDF, Donald Hubin rights about Parental Rights and Due Process that specifically describes the failure of the courts to recognize that the standard of "child's best interest" fails to meet our right to due process that should require the courts to recognize that sole custody to one parent means taking away the other parent's custodial rights and that this should not be allowed to be done without proof beyond reasonable doubt that the parent is unfit to share in that right. Imagine if the same standard of "child's best interest" were applied to your family where no divorce was going on and your children were taken from you because in the judge's opinion your faith (or anything else) wasn't in your child's best interest. That's an aweful lot of latitude for subjectively taking your kids away unless we demand nothing less than our due process right. In the context of divorce and custody that means nothing less than a presumption of continued shared custody unless a parent can be shown unfit to the same standards as is done in showing guilt in criminal cases.
In an ongoing battle to protect the virtues of justice and equality are folks like Glenn Sacks who runs a great website on many of the abuses suffered at the hands of the courts in regards to divorce which folks should also check out at http://www.glennsacks.com/. And the list of references can easily go on.
If you get through at least these three references, you'll hopefully be at least dispelled of any blissful ignorances you too may have once had.
make me a sandwhich
As others have pointed out, this thesis topic is flawed. You're using only your experiences and drawing a conclusion about everyone in the IT field. With over a 50% divorce rate in this country, it's going to be hard to prove your theory. What kind of divorce rate are you looking for in IT? 75%? You're probably not going to find it.
Don't trust a bull's horn, a doberman's tooth, a runaway horse or me.
My IT department:
13/20 currently married. 1 divorced (she is a secretary though).
there is no issue with my network
"A person who has successfully quit smoking generally has a great deal more empathy for people who have trouble kicking the habit than people who have no frame of reference."
Strange, my personal experience is almost exactly the opposite. Although I know non-smokers who look down on smokers who _say_ the would like to stop but in the end never even (really) try I know many more ex-smokers who really have no patience with smokers telling how many times they tried to stop but just weren't able to get rid of the habit.
For them it's "I was able to do it so don't give me that "oh it's too difficult crap"!"
But like I said, this is my personal experience, it might very well be that you are (statistically) right.
"I'm sure you're going to tell me I've misunderstood you again. Which is not surprising, because up to this point you've been steadily qualifying what you initially said further and further. Which is a good sign, because it indicates you now realize what you originally said doesn't make much sense."
No. I've quoted the same sentence from my original post, over and over again:
It is stupid for a couple to stay together for the "sake" of an institution.
My position has not changed.
"Are you against gay marriage? Have you paused to ask yourself why many gay people are so upset that this sacrament and legal framework are being denied to them? Maybe they're just nuts....Or maybe, like other people, they see the value to themselves and to society of a public commitment with public rights and responsibilities tied to it. That's pretty much what marriage is."
1) No, I'm not.
2) They're upset because they're being denied rights that straight people take for granted. They're upset because in many/most places in America, they can be prohibited from adopting, seeing their partner in the hospital, acting as a legal or financial guardian for their partner, or even making arrangements for their partner's funeral. They're upset because at this moment in America, marriage is a bigoted institution, and if nothing else, represents a way that religious and cultural forces are attempting to marginalize gay and lesbian citizens.
3) Gay and lesbian couples have been in loving, committed relationships for years, without the "incentive" of marriage. Giving them the right to marry will not change this fact. And, incidentally, gay and lesbian couples have been holding public commitment ceremonies for years -- it's assinine and arrogant to suggest that gay people want the legal right to marry because they're otherwise unable to express love and commitment for their partners.
"You seem to have a bug up your butt about the fact that many people also want a sacrament associated with their commitment, also, but what business is that of yours? If two people feel strongly about expressing their commitment with a spiritual sacrament, why are you obligated to care one way or another?"
But I don't care, jimbo. You're twisting my argument again. In case you missed it:
It is stupid for a couple to stay together for the "sake" of an institution.
Perhaps one of these times, you'll actually read it.
May frese be with you....
Let's try not to let fact interfere with our speculation here, OK?
Need statistical evaluation to see the relation between IT and divorce. There are always multiple factors and cause and effect are not what they seem. You may want to look at your commmunity situation. Some areas of the country have very high divorce rates and you will find concentrations of some type of work or profession there that may provide a casual link. For example, here in Huntsville, AL we are chock full of engineers and scientists, mostly male. The ratio of men to women is high. The women have their pick and they don't mind the divorce to move up that ladder. American women in general are spoiled; so many Americn men are going overseas to find brides. Look for that phenomena to continue.
cursethedarkness
gay and lesbian couples have been holding public commitment ceremonies for years
The hairs you are splitting are getting infinitisemally smaller.
Public commitment ceremonies good, marriage bad? Marriage is pretty much just public commitment ceremony plus legal rights and obligations, with an optional sacred element attached if the couple so chooses.
And you seem to be for the legal rights and obligations part (unless you only support that part for gay people, I don't want to put words in your mouth).
It is stupid for a couple to stay together for the "sake" of an institution.
I'm ignoring it because it's banal. What about staying together for each other? Because of a promise they made to each other? Because what price can you place on being on your death bed with a person you've loved for most of a lifetime beside you (or however much time you are given together)? Because what price can you put on being on your beloved's death bed, knowing you made it through a lot of hard times together and loved each other through it all, knowing you really, truly loved someone to the best of your ability?
If you remember back to the post you originally responded to, the argument made there is that many people value marriage lightly today compared to many other things, like jobs and children. Instead of addressing that basic point, you're rattling on about the Pope. If everyone is being told what to do by the Pope, why is it that about half of all marriages end with a divorce (in my country, the U.S.A., at least)? If you really, truly think there's still a significant stigma associated with divorce today, the world has certainly passed by you and your antiquated ideas.
-jimbo
XML Tools for Mac OS X
Go here... www.honestwealth.umbizsite.com
You are EXACTLY The type of person I'm looking for!
I am in the exact same position about family that _I_ am!
I believe that it isn't absolutely being in IT that takes the situation and bombards it to and beyond the brink of divorce. Primarily, you do have control of your job, if you believe that your job is causing problems with your marriage, then first (yes, this is the biggest and toughest position for any man) talk to your wife/husband, and decide what can be done to make it better. if that means that you must find a different area to work in, then yes, time to move away from the ALL POWERFUL IT position to something less demanding. I have heard of different IT managers complain that their wives have no understanding of them when they come home after a long and hard day. I usually tell them, "Well, do you have understanding for them when you come home from a long and hard day?" What I mean is, if your coming home from one of those DISASTER FROM ABOVE BELOW AND BESIDE days, then realize your going to be cranky... your not going to be a nice person to be around. Go to the gym before you go home, do something that will take your mind off of the problems at work. Also realize that if you have kids, she has had to deal with them while you dealt with your end-users primates. While us IT's can sometimes escape into the corners of the computer closets to "check the cabling" your spouse doesn't have that option.
If the problems are because of time constraints (for instance I am a 24/7 hour on call tech) then yes, this is a major problem and you need to (again) talk to your spouse about the situation, and make sure that you are both on the same website/page (had to throw something techy in). If s/he doesn't think that your paying enough attention to them, well guess what... "it ain't gettin' any betta." this would be the time to actually look into another career. Perhaps a career as a IT sales guy (I don't know for certain, but I have been told that they make as much as most IT Managers).
I think the hardest part of the whole thing is to make sure that your paying attention to your spouses needs, make sure that s/he is aware that you're willing to do what it takes to keep things happy between each other. That s/he understands that if there is something that is upsetting him/her that you're willing to actually listen (and not bite their heads off and not try and make excuses or pass the blame) and you're willing to attempt what needs to be done to make your spouse un-upset and allow Happiness to Abound!
This is my statement...
--- Thats my statement, and I am sticking to it.Seeing as how this is WAAAAYYYYY down on the list, I doubt anybody will actually read this, so oh well, wisdom to the ether of the internet.
I'm an avid Slashdot reader but have never been incited to post until now.
My story is the complete reverse of what is being solicited.
I was a 'stay-at-home' mom of a 2-year-old and a -3-month-year-old (6 months pregnant) when my husband developed a severe mental illness. My divorce was sudden and my prospects were bleak since I had a master's degree in a field that was non-lucrative, I had no prospects for child support (my ex was rendered unemployable) and little or no social security since he had been a freelancer.
I moved my small family to CA just after the peak of the dot-com boom to be near extended relatives, too a good, hard, look at the world to see what industry would pay enough to support a family on a single income, would have the flexibility to allow for working at home or if extra hours are needed could be done in the evening while children slept, and which would reward self-starters rather than (or along with) those with formal degrees.
IT was the answer. Specifically programmming.
I found an employer who would hire a determined, untrained woman (job interview question: 'Can you write an ASP site', answer: 'Never heard of it, but give me a month and I'll have one written'.
And that started my career as a working mom. I am now an R&D programmer - I would call myself an architect-in-training - for a good sized program. I train and review code written by others but always seem to find something new to explore that would benefit the company I work for. My employers understand that I require a flexible schedule but they apparently seem to find that this relationship is worthwhile for them.
I entered the field for Machiavelian reasons. What I didn't expect was how much I would enjoy this career path - how much quality-of-life I would have when each day I wake up to learn something new or have the opportunity to teach someone else how to use what I've learned, all to benefit other people - users of our software, the company, our customers.
My family is growing well. My at-the-time not-born-yet daughter is now 7 years old. I have remarried to someone in the industry - a CTO with a background in network administration.
The IT lifestyle give me the flexibility to be a mom and help support my family. While this is not a 'magical' quality of the IT industry, intrinsic to it in some mysterious way and no other industry, it is the reason why I chose this career path and it worked out for me (with up-front negotiation with my employers) extremely well.
Sure it has been said that police and neurosurgeons have a higher rate of divorce, perhaps those women fear lobotomy or a bullet! But I dont think IT must cause any more or less than other divorce by profession. If you need a topic for your thesis why dont you do something related to the 'child support' industry and the new welfare queens, state attorney generals(AG) , across this land. 1. How many fathers are turned into noncustodials just because mommy goes to the AG? 2. How many of those fathers are later driven away rom teh house of thier children because of the precedent established? 3. How many fathers are committing suicide because of custody and divorce? 4. How many children are being alienated by thier mothers? 5. How many fathers are having to work two jobs just to make a living because of exorbitant child support levels and arrearages? 6. How many fathers ar going to jail in this country because of child support issues? 7. How many fathers cannot afford to pay? 8. How many fathers have left the country because of? 9. How long does it take an alienated child to reconnect with thier demonized father? 10. Why dont the state release certain pertinent information to the public about these things? 11. Why does the government continue to attribute domestic violence to the man when the women do it more against men and especially the child? 8.
I want to thank everyone for their contributions to my post...I am reading everything. So if you think this is too far down the replies...think again because everything is relevant! Keep the good posts coming! Frank
Amazingly well, actually. We live in a smaller house, and have had to cut back in a few areas, but overall we're much happier. Surprisingly, a large portion of the old budget went to restaurant dinners, and other means of coping with a hectic schedule. So, yes, even on less money, I'm much happier, and my wife seems to be as well. Weird, huh?
I've been in computers all my life, and been divorced for 3 years out of a marriage of 20 years. I filed divorce because my ex was a nutbag, and have 75% custody of my kids...while paying an arm and a leg in spousal support, which is the price I pay for focusing on custody and not money.
The entire problem can stop with #2 and/or #3.
#2 - Don' get pregnant.
and #3 - Get married before getting pregnant. That doesn't specifically stop the male from flying the coop, but it does reduce the chances that he will not stick around. Marriage is a contract, and if the man isn't willing to enter into that contract, he probably isn't a good choice for seeding your womb.
Libertas in infinitum
"Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie to be fat and stupid"
Libertas in infinitum
I hope you don't mind me posting it to my blog. :)
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
Ditch IT and go instead with something like, "Institutionally-Supported Antecedents of Divorce" (if you use that title, please drop me a line in the Acknowledgements). The idea here is to look around in at least 2 bodies of literature: that surrounding Organizational Behavior (OB) and Industrial/Organizational Psychology (I/O Psych), and the literature describing small group relationships (specifically, obviously, intimate groups such as marriage).
What you'll want to do, after asking your major professor about your roadmap (to digress a bit: if your major professor is worth ANYTHING, s/he can give you some high-level guidance and appear remotely interested/invested in the topic. If this is not the case, DUMP THEM. Do this now. You'll be happier. Trust me.), is to try to marry (pardon the pun) the two bodies of literature and look for overlap in measures, context, or behaviors/attitudes that form natural analogues or antecedents to the other body of literature.
Aside from this - and I know this point is redundant - USE your local experts and your University library access to look at journals. Look, now that I'm on the topic, at a LOT of literature. Add rigor to your research, even if it "only" gives you personal satisfaction of honestly earning an advanced degree. Specifically, it seems to me that - if you want to continue along this vein of research - you MUST have an OB/IO Psychologist as well as someone from counseling or social psychology. Additionally, an OB person from the business college would also be quite useful.
And then, of course, it is YOUR job to herd your cats and steer them to agreement regarding your research.
G'luck and stop reading slashdot, you. ;)
Carolyn's Guide to Geek Guys
So, your crush on the bass player from Green Day has finally died a whimpering death and you're wondering where to go from here. All the sinister dudes are either dating a series of interchangeable high-school riot girls in baby doll dresses and an overdose of manic panic, or permanently shacked up with some bitter old lady who pays all the bills. Which will it be, a wifely prison or a humiliating one night stand? Into this void of potential mates comes a man you may not have considered before, a man of substance, quietude and stability, a cerebral creature with a culture all his own. In short, a geek.
Why Geek Dudes Rule
- They are generally available.
- Other women will tend not to steal them.
- They can fix things.
- Your parents will love them.
- They're smart.
Where The Geek Dude Lurks
While they are often into alternative music, geek dudes tend not to go to shows too often. Instead you'll find them hanging out with their friends, discussing the latest hardware revolution or perfecting their Bill Gates impressions. You know how some people wear t-shirts with their favorite bands on them, thus showing that they went to certain shows? Well, geek dudes wear t-shirts with the logos of different software companies on them, thus showing that they are up on the latest, um, releases. A small, though convivial, rivalry may be detected here amongst the geek dudes. Try wearing one yourself and see if he strikes up a conversation. Of course the best way to meet a geek dude is through the Internet. All geeks harbor a secret fantasy about meeting some girl in cyberspace, carrying on an e-mail romance in which he has the chance to combine an activity he is comfortable with, computing, with one he is very uncomfortable with, socializing. To many geek dudes, cyberdating is just an advanced form of some kind of video game, but they are frustrated by a lack of players. Their lack is your strength.
Imprinting
You might notice that these men harbor some strange ideas about how the world works and some particularly strange ideas about women. There is a reason for this. Because they've had limited interpersonal experience, geek dudes must look elsewhere for behavior models. Lacking a real world social milieu, geeks often go through a transference stage with such narratives, and try to model their interactions on them. Thus, certain media images and themes come to have an overly cathected, metaphorized reality to them, while the rest of us view such programming as mere entertainment. Case in point, our next topic...
The Trek factor
If you're not up on your Star Trek, you can forget about getting or keeping a geek dude. And I'm not just talking vintage-era Captain Kirk and Spock either. You've got to be up on your The Next Generation, your Deep Space Nine, your Babylon 5. Armed with your own knowledge of Federation policies, you can better gauge when and how to act. The sexual politics of Star Trek are pretty blunt: the men run the technology and the ship, and the women are caretakers (a doctor and a counselor). Note the sexual tensions on the bridge of the Enterprise: the women, in skin tight uniforms, and with luxuriant, flowing hair. The men, often balding, and sporting some sort of permanently attached computer auxiliary. This world metaphorizes the fantasies of the geek dude, who sees himself in the geeky - but - heroic male officers and who secretly desires a sexy, smart, Deanna or Bev to come along and deferentially accept him for who he is. If you are willing to accept that this is his starting point for reality, you are ready for a geek relationship.
Once You've Nabbed Him
Of course, catching that geek guy is only half the battle. Keeping him by your side is another story altogether. I was privileged to speak with Miss Victoria Maat, who not only got herself a geek guy but was also clever
Like most other things that are worthwhile, Marriage is a choice that is made daily by the two people who are in it. It should be a lifelong commitment although things can go awry. A little thinking ahead can save a lot of time and anguish later. For example: Talking through the fact that an IT job is demanding on the husband or wife's time before being married is time well spent. Map out who will take what responsibilities at home when he/she is not out in the field can help minimize stress. There is no magic to pre-marital counseling but the greatest value of it can be that individuals decide beforehand whether they can deal with a spouse who is not home on a regular basis or called out at random times. Sitting down and discussing issues like this can help a Marriage last longer or be stronger. Divorces can be caused by lack of communication about hot topics such as household/childcare responsibilities, money or sex. Currently, we have many men and women of the Armed Forces overseas and their Marriages last so just being out of the house over an IT job, in and of itself doesn't cause divorces. The difference is our military families have communicated before deployment what the expectations will be on each person's part, then COMPROMISED with each other for the common good of the family. Finally, anything you put before God and your family can wreck your household. It may take time but if your wife and kids see that your job is more important to you than they are (IT, Brain Surgery, Ice Cream Vending or any other career), you're on thin ice. Focus on the priorities of the entire family unit. They may change with time, wife, then kids, then you, not in any scripted order. Treat your kids good and they'll grow to love and respect you. Treat your spouse good and they'll send you to work with a big smile on your face. Give your Marriage everything you've got and it will pay great dividends for years to come. Of course you'll miss out on having at least one ex to blame all your troubles from here to eternity on but somehow, you'll survive (see Gloria Gaynor). : )