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The Living Dilbert?
AirmanTux asks: "Next march I will be separating from the US Air Force, after six years wearing 'the uniform', working in the closest thing to IT that the military has. For certain reasons, I've come to the conclusion that I will be more effective in serving the US public out of uniform than in it. There seems to be a common belief that the civilian sector is just as disorganized and mismanaged as the uniformed services. Do you think this is true? Are there any 'honest' places to work any more (where promotions/awards are based on work preformed and bureaucracy, and politics aren't encouraged to supplant the 'mission), or has America become one big living Dilbert strip?"
did you try searching for a GS job at usajobs.com? I plan on getting a GS job when my enlistment is over. if you have a clearance try clearancejobs.com. hope that helps.
no
I just made that switch myself not long ago.
It really depends on the place where you end up working (their size, what type of company they are, etc matters a lot).
Regardless, I *don't* ever want to be "promoted" to a management job. I like coding, not paperwork, meetings and managing people.
I work for a large organization, which as a result of it's size, has a sizeable ammount of beaurocratic BS. Perhaps I've been lucky, but I don't feel my management is as pathetic as portreryed in the strips...not even close. I think it helps to work for a company that takes IT seriously, as a genuine method for improving the business and not a dreaded tax to be paid like waste removal or maintenance. Unfortunately I have no insight as to how to determine this from the outside.
But, people are people. I might make a vague generalization about the personality types that join the military, but that probably won't be productive.
Blar.
i have some ocean-front property in arizona......
You bet! Just go over to India and work in a tech support call center there! You'd be doing america more good by being somebody on the other end of the phone who knows what they're doing than by getting a job in IT in the US of A
Short answer: No.
Longer answer: Not really...there are places where performance and ability advance, but they are few and far between indeed, and primarily in small establishments. To most employers, employees are disposable commodity, a necessary evil that is to be pruned or removed at the earliest possible convenience. Management has become the science of keeping up appearances, with many managers being completely ignorant of the trade they are in, or the tasks of the workers they supposedly manage. Color me a pessimist, but the way I see it, Dilbert has gone from a sarcastic parody to a photorealistic portrait of the American workforce.
After 4 years in the Marines I was ready to get out to the "real" world... a world free of BS and well paying cool jobs. Well I got my degree in Comp Sci and was ready to face the world. Upon getting a job with a large corporation, I was amazed at the amount of BS there. It made the military look like an efficient & well-oiled machine. After 5.5 years now in the corporate world I ahve come to one conclusion... you alone can't make a damn difference. Either you will like it or you won't. I have finally realized that being my own boss is the way to go and thus I am pursuing that vigorously.
As for you my friend, take a walk through the corporate jungle and see if its your kinda thing. You can always do your own thing!
http://psychicfreaks.com/I have to say my first engineering internship/coop/whatever you wanna call it has been rather pleasant. It is probably due to the fact that my boss actually has a degree in physics. Well this week has been the strangest Dilbert moment ever. Four days out of the five I had to work with someone using a jackhammer about ten feet away. No one's innepitude caused it (except maybe the people who built the building) but it had to happen because a rock/large concrete slab had to go in order for some construction to resume. It was something that would happen to Dilbert.
Ooo man the floppy drive is broken. No wait. The computer is just upside down.
The more in-depth knowledge you have of some area, the more immune you will be to having to bow to mindless political requirements. I'm not saying that will go away, just that it will be lessened.
Consider focusing on specific areas, like perhaps IT security work or perhaps programming related to military applications. It seems like you should be able to use your time in the services to your advantage.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I value nothing more than being the master of my own destiny - which should explain why I live in the South Pacific and am more or less retired from corporate life at 42. Here, in a nutshell is the modus vivendi I've developed:
Any organisation beyond a certain size inevitably becomes pathological in its behaviour. It sometimes reverts to normalcy for periods of time, but it will swing, and you will swing with it. Avoid long term commercial commitments to any large organisation. Working with groups or individuals within them for finite terms is fine, and sometimes really enjoyable, though.
Find a niche where you can work with a number of trusted individuals (perhaps as a consultant or contractor) and either work for yourself or work in a small company of less than 50 staff. The material benefits won't be as easily accessible, but your life will be infinitely more enjoyable, because you'll actually have some control over it.
Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
But that can be avoided! If, instead of working at a large company, you seek out a small fledgling business to work at, you will find that the benefits are proportional to the results and not to politics. A small business, especially one with 20 employees at the most, cannot afford to play these political games. These businesses are usually owner-operated, and the owner cares about moving forward in life. That's why he is taking the tremendous risk and creating jobs for his employees. These organizations usually have one boss, around whom the whole business revolves. There might be one other manager, but usually, everyone runs around the boss asking questions and finding out what he wants them to do. This is the perfect business to work in, if you're a people-person. You go over there, and start at whatever level you can get. Since there aren't thousands of employees, the owner of the business will quickly see how you learn and operate. If you do a good job, you'll find yourself earning a lot of trust and capability in the company. Your opinions will be heard. And if you can be a team member, not just by doing your job, but by learning a bit about everyone's job, learning how the owner thinks, what he wants to accomplish, etc., you can take a lot of that pressure off the owner.
By doing all of this, you can help the business grow in terms of profit, which will make it grow into a larger company. Eventually, that means the office will become a Dilbert strip, or something out of Office Space. You'll have a Lumberg working under you a few levels down. But who cares? At this point, you will have helped the U.S. economy, you will have created jobs, you will have grown the company into something successful and long lasting, and you will be at a high position at the top, earning a high salary, and no doubt owning a good portion of the stock. You'll be laughing all the way to the bank.
Welcome to the cube farm boy.
You can work at a Start-Up. In those types of jobs, there's not a lot of money to go around so there's no room to slack off. Thus, everyone around you should, in theory, be top quality. Your reward for long hours and lower pay is a lot of stock options... But if the company doesn't work out, all you're left with is toilet paper. (No, I'm not bitter, not at all)
Or you can work at Big Corporation. All of them are the same, with varying degrees of B.S. Some have very little office politics and your hard work is noted and rewarded. Others are just one big C.Y.A. environment. Even worse, even if you do work hard in your local I.T. area, upper management may decide to oursource your job, so you get screwed anyways.
Remember, the goal is not to work hard. The goal is to work smart. Put in a lot padding on your estimates so you can slack off and still meet the deadline. If your co-workers in other areas / departments ask you to do things for them, pretend you don't know so they won't bother you anymore. (After all, you only answer to your boss.) Be sure to take the credit when something works and pass the blame when it doesn't. Don't complain about new projects or moved up timelines. You'll still have to complete them anyways if you still want to keep your job. Instead, agree with management and discuss how much more revenue the company will make once the project is finished. It gives the impression you actually give a shit about your clients and you'll be remembered as the "can do" person instead of the "can't do" complainer. I do all of these and have steadily advanced in position & salary.
I happen to be in the Air National Guard currently and am well on my way to making it my career, though not in IT. I have my Master's Degree in Computer Science, and had the privledge of doing my research work with the Desert Research Institute in Reno, Nevada. I can tell you with a great amount of certainty that the driving forces between government and public IT are worlds apart. In Air Force/Government IT, there is little motivation to strive to learn more skills. Pretty much anyone can enlist into a technical field and they're all put through the same relatively short, simple training. In my opinion, they're amateurs on an unjustified power trip. There is significantly higher motivation for learning new skills in the public sector because it will actually make a difference for the individual. When you become invaluable, your status and pay reflect that, generally, in the public sector. Definetly not so in government positions. I do completely agree that an individual with a strong desire to learn and expand skills and knowledge can be of immense use in the public sector. However it takes a supernatural kind of driving force to penetrate the mundane aura of government IT.
After six years at a large international engineering outfit in the aerospace sector, I was very fortunate to find an IT job at a small, commercial-software-making outfit. The change in attitude and valuation of my skill set is like night and day. (Of course in favor of the small company.) That being said, opportunities in such companies aren't all that common, and you may trade some of the perks that larger companies can provide you. I took a $5k/year cut from the previous job, and my insurance coverage isn't quite as favorable in the smaller company, but I wouldn't think of going back since my input and experience is very much needed and appreciated here. Yes, I got d*mn lucky. Not all hope is lost.
Stay away from state-run universities if you want to avoid the same sort of red-tape and bullshit you find working for Uncle Sam.
I'm working for a very wealthy private univesity and it's much better than the state one where I worked before. It's easier to get fired at a private place so do you work and obey the rules. If you like total job security despite the BS factor, you might enjoy working for the state--here in Texas, it took an act of God to get fired because the managers (at least where I worked) never kept enough of the right paper work to do the necessary documentation to terminate an employee.
However, universities have a bad habit of higher their own graduates and favoring them in promotions--they've never been anywhere else so changes come slow if not 10 years behind everyone else. The management types are usually not as sharp as the managers in the corporate world--mostly because they wouldn't survive out there so they're also playing the job security card.
There's also little upward mobility. But, in the right position, you're an 8-5, weekends off, extra week off between Xmas and New Years Day kind of cush job.
Oh, at the pay scale is usually lower than the corporate market bears--but you won't get laid off.
There's lots of trade-offs but you have to decide what you want.
Good luck--having "USMC" on my resume qualified me for prison guard, police work, or mall security. Hope USAF is more helpful to you.
I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
short answer: no
long answer: hell, no
what about Video games? I work for a video games company and it has zero stress most of the time, you make your own fame because of your good job and no body can tell you that game wasn't made without your help if you appear at the credits ;-)
I work at Fairchild Semiconductor, a fairly large corporation, a most people I've met there are truely nice, honest people, including upper level management. You do find the ocassional person who screws everyone else for his/her own benefit, but that happens everywhere, not just in the US. I think that you will find that the private sector is much more effiecient than govornment, we actually have competition in the private sector, last I checked there is no competing govornment tried to take control of the US.
When my Dad worked for Sandoz, there was a person sho seemed to do nothing aside from wonder around with a cup of coffee and yammer in peoples doorways.
Just my personal experience; out of college I started off working for small to medium sized companies and doing a lot of contracting for small projects. It did feel very merit based and like I was making a real difference with my work.
Afte 7 years of that I now work for a Fortune 500 company. I make a lot more money, but I do indeed feel like I'm living inside a Dilber strip. It's the most bizzare working experience I've ever had. Like I said, I make more money, and as my work doesn't have as much impact on the organization as a whole it's less stress.
So, it's a difficult trade off: more money and less stress in exchange for feeling like a tiny cog in a giant machine. I'm still not sure what to think about it: my work is less meaningfull, my work is a smaller part of my life, and my life is better as a whole --- so it seems like I'm moving in the right direction, but it still feels wrong to be dispassionate 8 hours a day.
Every big company works exactly the same way. Instead of having prima-donna base commanders, the civies have CEOs. Instead of blow-hard group commanders, the civilians have CIOs, CFOs, etc. Instead of incompetent leutennants, you'll be faced with stupid managers.
The biggest difference? You can actually get fired from a civilian company.
Being in the military sucks sometimes. But it sure beats working for a living.
I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.
"Are there any 'honest' places to work any more (where promotions/awards are based on work preformed and bureaucracy, and politics aren't encouraged to supplant the 'mission)." Sure... but you'll have to start your own company.
I've found in my own experience that taking consulting lobs (Dogbert: combines conning people with insulting people) and constantly upgrading skills have been a path to higher pay. Road warrior when I've had to be. If you wnat stability, hone your brown nose and political skills and hunker down for a long climb up and pray that no merger or Indian outsourcing company moves in. Keep lots of phone numbers and emails on hand and make sure they are up to date. Stay in touch with former employees and managers. The definition of a great wotk invironment is subjective. Maybe try temp consulting work at first. A lot of these can turn permanent. Good luck and thanks for standing up for your country. All us old warriors salute you and your mates. Gomez - cold war sub vet and sonarman to the stars.
Too lazy to create a sig...
We also had to do a physical audit of every single computer, printer, UPS, laptop docking station, and monitor. On each computer Automatic updates were turned on as well as auto anti-virus updates. Our cublcies are beige and totally disgusting. Do I feel like Dilbert? No. This is because life is what I make of it, and I can make decisions that affect an entire corporation. We spent five hours this Saturday getting half of the computers updated, and we will have to do the other half early in the morning or late at night when no one is at their workstation. I have some simple advice: keep a positive attitude towards the whole thing and do not let your bosses bury you with projects.
In my experience, a small company is the best place to focus on the work at hand, rather than the overhead. It's also easier to get permission to do things, because there aren't as many people to have turf wars. Plus, at smaller companies, you'll see more of the mechanitions of real business decisions, rather than the fodder of low-competence managers and colleagues.
There are lots of great places to work. In my experience most medium sized organizations are pretty well managed, and managed by competent people. But everywhere also has a crank or nut-job or two.
As an aside I've worked for people I thought were straight-up crooks, and I've worked for decent people who appreciate their employees. There is nothing that is worth working for crappy people, and even if decent people may pay less, it is worth it to have a decent work environment.
Using "Common Sense" is being either to arrogant or to ignorant to ask people who know more about something than you.
Dilbert can be classified as a form of observational comedy, similar to Seinfield. The reason why this is so funny is because it takes observations from real-life situations, and exaggerates them. Therefore, they aren't a 100% mirror reflection of reality, however they start off with a kernel of truth to them. They bring about a representation of the way we feel about situations, but just as New Yorkers aren't quite like portraied on Seinfield, the private IT sector isn't exactly like Dilbert either.
.. just sayin.
I too wore the blue(okay I rarely wore the smurf outfit, almost always BDUs) for 4 years.
Got for the same stated reasons and probably the same unstated reasons as you.
I did well due to lucky timming, but soon found the corporate world could be a lot less than kind. As a UNIX systems Administrator I have found the job market did indeed take deep dive after 2001. Thoguh many claim it has recovered - look closely. There are still a few cake jobs to be found, but overall the career is undergoing a transformation. They are putting more and more responsiblilies(read duties that others on the team used to do), part of it may been justified by automation(yeah right), but it's really about the bottom line.
Overall the corporate world has become much more concerned with bottom line in recent years. they cut costs no matter what the costs.
Now after being out I have become bitter and disenfranchised with the civilian world too. I think back at how I scoffed at the repeated re enlsitment notices. I think about how I have been wasting years - retring after 20 years in the Air Force is a sweet deal(even sweeter if you get a commission as an officer).
So unless you have a plan besides just working for the man. I would suggest you reconsider how good you have it and stick it out for the next 14 years to retirement. Heck take all that leave you get and take a vacation(don't save it all up until the end like I did) you want have as much time off in the civilian world unless you are unemployed - and that tkes most of the fun otu of it.
Of course if you have plan to start a business or folow dream then go for it.
The best I can suggest, to avoid the politics and bureaucracy, is to have a specialised technical job and to work for a manager who is also technical and will understand your contribution. Hopefully, your relationship with him can then be based on results and he can fight the political games: keeping you out of it.
The situation is better in other countries: you might consider moving abroad, though that will probably mean lower pay.
Good luck!
And here I am in a 4x5 room, in a basement, with two jackhammers and a sawz-all next door. True story. Yaay summer construction.
I went from Air Force to Air Guard, then into civilian life. I've found working in corporations to be more Dilbert than the military. In the military you're not dealing with offshore outsourcing, layoffs, doing stupid stuff to try and improve your stock price and directors trying to destroy your section to prove a point. And don't forget what kind of a deal the grunts at Enron got. I know the military can really suck too, but I'm guessing that an Air Force guy in an IT unit is probably not getting shot at in Iraq.
I've also found that the private sector owns you much like the military. My last job wound up requiring 3 - 4 all nighters a month and working every other weekend. I was also expected to show up for my normal work day. They can always replace you when the economy is bad, and probably get someone cheaper. But that's the good thing about civilian life, you can look for a new job and make changes too. You don't need to stay stuck in a job you hate. I'm on my 3rd job in 5 years (not necessarily a good thing for the resume) but I've found a good place.
Now I'm working for a school district about 8 miles from my house. I ride my bike to work and am able to work pretty much 40 hours a week. There's still some Dilbert-ish things that happen, but I've got my attitude dialed in. I'm content. I could make more money working elsewhere, but doubt it would improve my life.
There is one place that is as honest as you
want it to be... working for yourself.
It's a shitty thing to say, because starting your
own business (or more realistically a partnership with
others you know) is not easy. Maybe you have to slog through
some soul crushing bullshit at a large corporate job to get the
money and contacts you need to do it.
But once you do it (success of failure), you will know what
it is to work for an honest organization where true merit counts.
Once you do, you never want to go back.
It was something that would happen to Dilbert.
No. In Dilbert it would have been done intentionally at the behest of a consultant in order to increase your productivity with "(Per)cussive (T)eam B(u)ilding The(r)aputic Vi(b)ration mass(age).
KFG
airmantux should look for a job in academia. Working for a University seems remarkably free of the nonsense one finds in corporate America. In the last decade, the pay has become much closer to corporate pay, too. There's a whole different type of nonsense to deal with when working in higher education, but at least you're working with people who are smart and generally care a lot about what they're doing. And quarterly stock price isn't the only thing that matters. I've been working in higher ed for almost 18 years and I'd never go back to working in a corporate office.
You are welcome on my lawn.
AF has the best reputation of all the services for enlisted MOS and computers. if there are any contractors in your facility/base in your field then let them know you are getting out. most of them will get a referral bonus if you get hired. I can honestly say that nobody treats ex-military better than the DOD contractors. On the flipside, at the highest ranks they all prior service officers and as a former enlisted you may rise far into middle management but the senior positions for most DoD contractors will be out of your grasp. There is some Dilbertisms going on but for the most part its the Dilberting that you know as opposed to the ones you don't. As fas as going government, I did that for 5 years went through grades of GS9-12 as 0443 now changed to 2210. Inside DOD, is about 90% Dilbert with most of them trying to pass off their work to co-workers, subordinates and/or contractors. In and out of DoD, most of the supervisors took this career path; either data entry or secretarial work ->office automation specialist->information technician->supervisor. truly bizarre. on the flipside, i saw a lot of supervisors try to fire people and one person in particular was blatantly malignering, i.e. using sick leave to take days off and come in late, claiming doctor's appointments but never having any proof. after 3 years of documentation and counseling, the supervisor managed to get the person transferred. it was the best he could do. if you really want to go government; if you don't have a bachelor in something get one, if you do get a masters MBA or just generic MOM (aka Masters of Management) somewhere and skip the GS and apply straight to the SES http://jobsearch.usajobs.opm.gov/ses.asp beyond the military-industrial complex, I don't know I have never really left it.
I work for Motorola (in Australia, but I've work in MOT offices around the world on assignment).
It is *exactly* like Dilbert.
I too was faced with the same thoughts that you now have, after having returned from Vietnam and having learned nothing more than to be a MACV Infantry Advisor. However, much thought convinced me to switch services to the USAF and finish up my 20 years. Yes there was the BS, the ups and downs but, I can say I never found people at the same level of professionalism in civilian life. Nor was it easy to find people in the civilian sector, that you could trust and make a deal based on a handshake. After twenty years, I retired and went on to form a number of firms in Europe, on my own and with the experince gained in the military, which ultimately led me to a sucessful life style and subsequent second and fruitful retirement.
I will paraphrase a story I heard around the campfire in the Boy Scouts:
An old man sat sipping iced tea on a bench in front of the little drug store in a small town. After a while a young man pulled up in his car and got out, and stopped to chat with the old man before going into the store. The younger man said he had just moved to town, and he was curious about how this new town would compare. "I hope it's like the place I just left. The people were friendly, and everyone looked out for each other."
"I've got good news," the old man said, "You will find that this town is just the same as the one you left!"
After a while another young man came along, and stopped to chat with the old man. He too was curious about what this town was like. "I hope it's better than the place I just left. The people were petty and self-centered, and everyone was out for himself."
I've got bad news," the old man said, "You will find that this town is just the same as the one you left!"
Evil is the money of root.
Was I the only one who was hanging on the edge of his seat, carefully reading each word of the summary in complete suspense, to be disappointed to find that only in the second to last word of the paragraph was Dilbert mentioned? =)
You were in the Air Force. ;-)
The biggest problem you're going to note is an almost pervasive inability to make decisions.
Having spent 5 years in the military myself and the last 18 years in the civilian sector, I can say with great confidence that the civilian sector in no way is anywhere near as disorganized and incompetent as the military. The military is another branch of the federal government. That means it falls to the same economic problems the government has. No accountability for output or productivity.
No competition in govt. means the quality of output is not compared to a competitor. There are no standards nor metrics that have any independant oversight. The result is obvious. Poeple in govt. tend to get lazy and do less and less for more and more pay because they can. What standards can they be compared to? Who holds them accountable? The govt. is too big to have any real accountability.
In the civilian sector you have to make money. Yeah there is plenty of fat/red tape/ incompetance in large corporations. But it doesn't last forever. Any company that gets fat, happy and lazy will eventually lose in the marketplace. Just look at any large tech company in the last 10 years to see what a difference competition makes. When was the last time the military or fed govt. laid off a _large_ portion of it's workforce because they stopped bringing in enough income? The last time I checked, the govt just borrows more and more money when income goes down. It'd be nice in the civilain sector if companies could just borrow their way out of financial woes but unfortunately the civlian sector has to budget and follow normal economics.
Therefore no waste, incompetance and lazy tenured people who are mean, lazy and disfunctional (been to get a drivers license lately? Imagine millions of poeple in one organization just like that. Now think of the fed. govt.).
Hopefully getting into the civilian sector is not too much of a shock since you will now have to justify your value by production and not by how much "time" you have put in (unless you go union - that has the same problems fed govt has).
My $.02.
-- Mean People Suck
I shouldn't need to say anything on this one...
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
I've worked for Fortune 500 companies, and five person start ups. I've taken a shot a starting my own company too (it didn't work out). I'm 110% convinced that the only way to avoid the bozos is to be your own boss.
In the military promotions are the result of seniority and heavily on performance. In the civilian world promotions are a result of how will you can attach your lips to somebodies buttocks.
Got Code?
You will find plenty of these in topheavy organizations where poor performance is rewarded at the top levels.
Civilian security practices are not like what you're used to. Depending on the size of the organization, you may end up with a non-tech boss. Some DO NOT want to know what's being done wrong, nor about what you'd consider minimum safe practice (deleting/disabling accounts of people that are not there anymore, password changes, keeping users from having admin rights and a visible thermometer for the server room). I got fired from one job because I got labeled as not being a team player because I was trying to get something written down about policies and procedures (for training and worker protection. As an NCO I used to run a NCC help desk and WIAO). I'd argue that I was a major risk in making that boss look bad, especially with long term policy and accountability issues, but oh well. In a way, I look forward to their first major meltdown. I doubt that person will acknowledge that anything was preventable, though.
Other things to watch for:
If you're overseas, apply for overseas jobs now. I haven't had as much luck getting responses stateside as I had hoped. Some of the civilian positions from usajob.gov want you in the area initially or don't have PCS expenses authorized. Use that free ticket!
Get your certifications! Military experience is nice, but little pieces of paper help a lot more.
"Non-competitive" clauses suck.
If the company you're applying to has a HR department, expect to wait at least 1-2 months before hearing anything.
Either way, congrats! Don't forget you're going to be on inactive reserves until your 8th year, so stay off the bong ^_^
"Common sense will be the death of us all"
Small companies are not like that. The smaller they are, the less they are the like that. Small companies are where work matters, there is little politics and so forth. Small companies can't SURVIVE otherwise (many don't) as there is no room for this sort of thing as there is in large companies.
Of course small companies have their problems. One big one being they never have money, which is a big problem. It's obvious how important capital is, but as time goes by I become even more aware of how important it is, about how much capital matters in ways that are not immediately obvious, in addition to obvious ways.
Another thing about small companies is if you are not in your early 20s is if you are not an owner or partner you ask yourself why the hell you would work for someone else instead of starting your own company. They have no money, you have no money, so why work for them, why not start your own small company?
As far as bureaucracy, politics and so forth versus work rewarded and innovation, this really depends on societal things. Over the past few decades, things have become more monopolistic, companies merge, even broken up monopolies come together - Bell for one, where 7 Baby Bells have become 4, and will become 3 when AT&T and Bellsouth merge. Or Standard Oil, which a century after being broken up is merging once again into ExxonMobil ('nee Standard Oil of New Jersey and Standard Oil of New York). People don't even remember that Exxon and Mobil were originally in the same company.
Small businesses can't usually afford to operate in that way. It affects the bottom line and owners don't like that. Find your local BB or Chamber of Commerce. They will know the small businesses. Talk to them and find yourself a home.
I got lucky with a small tech company in Las Vegas and couldn't be happier. The boss rewards all of the techs with a cut of the profits. Moral is high, profits are good, and best of all I get to do what I love without being broke.
Good luck. YMMV.
Well I don't drink a lot of coffee...
I was in a few different areas before I came into the military: small business, non-profit, academia, corporate. (Never worked directly for the government before, though.) To my mind, the military, being a microcosm of society, tends to have all the problems everyone else does.
And I think it's a pretty universal rule that when your organization, whether it's military or civilian, will work best when they are focused on some kind of mission. This is especially true for the military because so many of our rules and procedures exist because of the life and death nature of our job.
In short, when you're in the military, the further removed you are from combat, the more you are in a Dilbert environment.
I'm an information architect who works for a consulting company that has major contracts with both the military (portals, both secret and non) and teh private sector (special focus in financial services and ecommerce). The answer to your question is an emphatic NO, not in the slightest.
A project that the private sector will complete inside of 9 months will take 2 years inside the government. The reasons for this are fairly straightforward.
1. Contractors (the big boys, not my company necessarily) have NO interest in efficiency. The longer the contract lasts the more money they make.
2. Government personnel have no motivation to be competitive or efficient. Promotions are few and far between, there is a low expectation to begin with, and the aforementioned also holds true for this group as well.
3. The politics doesn't lend itself to efficiency. You have to worry about all sorts of buy-in on an enormous scale, in some cases ACTUAL politics comes into the game, etc.
Yeah, you'll see some inefficiency and idiocy in the private sector, but NOTHING like the government. At the end of the day the private sector business owner (PM, CEO, whoever) is responsible for the net result, and he has a serious interest in the success of the project.
If anything the only thing I would tell you to expect is to be ready for the more aggressive and demanding environment you're entering. Long turnarounds are gone, you will be responsible for what you come up with, and you likely won't get funding for what's perceived as "nice but unnecessary". For example, the best usability testing I've gotten funds for havre been from governement projects. Why? Its not their money, and the bottom line is more or less irrelevant.
Best,
rt
Why not do the extra 14 years and leave with a paycheck in the bank twice a month for the rest of your life? Oh, and TRICARE too. I know it's hard to deal with LIFERs but that extra paycheck when you get out is so sweet and know all you want to do is get out but still. While I was happy to get out after six myself I sometimes wonder. My dad did 20+ USA and that extra check sometimes came in very handy for the family.
20 is a very, very long time but 30+ years of retirement pay (plus they still do COLAs too?) after that, "backed by the world's largest printing press", could make it worth while. It's a bitch of a choice though with no true, correct answer.
Good luck man and don't go crazy in your short time.
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity but they've always worked for me" - HST
America is stuck in a perpetual downward spiral. This is because everyone is convinced there is nothing they can do about it. And most don't want to. America had its moment, its time to move on. The next frontier. We the workers sit around because we are tired, and listen to the next egomaniac that decides he really is worth a triple figure income while he does nothing sitting at the helm of a company that is trying to realize 300 percent profits. It would have been beneficial if someone would have written some protection into the constitution for the little people. In the meantime, wanna feel better? Try listening to some Prodigy.
> Are there any 'honest' places to work any more (where promotions/awards are based on work preformed and >bureaucracy, and politics aren't encouraged to supplant the 'mission),
The United States Military is many ways a highly inefficent organization in the micro, and lord knows it is filled with bureaucracy that is phenomonal. That said, one of the strong points of the military is the promotion structure.
I have worked at a lot of different jobs in the 17 years since I have been out of the military, from very small shops to enterprise situations, and have never seen anywhere that the promotion situation is as clear-cut as the military. The rules for promotion in the military are phenomonally well definied. There is no guessing and the need for promotion politicing is *by far* the lowest of any organization I have ever been in or even heard of.
It is also completely color and gender blind, which is getting to be the standard in the US, but sure isn't in every shop I have seen.
That said, to be fair to the poster, in the critera for promotion, work performed tends to come about the middle of the list of things that determine your promotion status. Military bearing (a catchall for how well you meet the basic military requirements for behavior and action) for example, is often at least if not more important than your actual job performance at the lower ranks (which the poster is if he served 6 years). But if you are joining the military in the first place, you pretty much know that unless you aren't too bright. At least I sure did.
I am not pushing the military here, nor disagreeing with the poster's basic tenent that the military can be a phenomonally frustrating work envrionment. My decision to get out was definitely the correct one for me and I haven't looked back. But once I got a good taste of civilian experience, the one thing that kept impressing me about the military was the promotion system. Of course, that said, I have gotten a *lot* further in civilian life than I ever would have in the military rank structure. I sucked with the military bearing stuff, but that wasn't the fault of the military, I am the one who signed up to wear the green suit.
7. What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence.
Assuming you are now 24 or so, your career should be just starting. Best thing you can do is get in school, take up computers as a hobby, and figure out what you are going to do with yourself when the GI Bill money runs out, or you get a degree, whichever comes first. In my experience, there aren't very many honest, meritocratic companies out there. Being run by human beings tends to kill off all of the idealistic notions of a start-up pretty quickly, so if you want to advance AND stay honest, you are going to have to be somewhat of a mercenary. Good luck on your last trip out of the Main Gate, avoid moving back in with your folks at all costs, and be patient with yourself if you don't immediately begin earning that 40k per year on the outside the recruiter promised you when you enlisted.
-- lk t lv ll th vwls t f wrds. T svs lts f tm t wrt bt ts pn n th ss t rd nd mks m lk lk cmplt dpsht.
I can tell you, the private sector has a lot more
inertia in it than does the military. There is also
a lot more politics involved.
first rule of thumb in the private sector:
"always watch your back. you never know when
someone will use it as a target of opportunity."
Understanding is much like a 3-edged-sword. in this: there are always 2 sides and the truth.
A marine officer friend once told me the military was operated and run like a big business, except instead of turning profits, they export bodies of bad guys.
And he was serious, he went into details on the similarities of his training and an MBA program, though I suppose the MBA didn't involve automatic weapons.
There's red tape in any large organization. I've you've developed an allergy to it, go into business for yourself, or a small company with good people.
I have been able to experience both sides of this dilemma within the last two years. At a certain point in those two years, our company was bought out by Blockbuster and from that time on the BS grew exponentially. Before that we were a 50 person headquarters and it was one of the most enjoyable jobs I'm sure I will ever have. I work as a programmer and have had my share of corporate BS since then but by no means have I seen as much as most of you being as I am only 21. All I do know is that people come and go faster now, some people just can't handle it and why should they? I don't think anyone should fear for their jobs unless they are doing something wrong and that's exactly how the company doesn't work now. The amount of overhead that came with them taking over is ridiculous. Where things used to get done immediately, some simple tasks take days, weeks, or even months to finish. The corporate machine has definitely made an impact on my job.
I will forever be a student.
I still remember, when I was young and did not start to work yet. I looked at that stripes and could not figure what was funny about that. The day I started to work I saw how corporations work, and understood the stripes. They just show how stupid and funny our reality is. Its quite like simpsons. I love both them.
I went into the Army straight out of high school and served about a decade. I went a lot of places and was exposed to a lot of very exciting technology. I doubt I will ever again come close to doing anything as cool in the civilian sector. Outside of the technology, I miss the sense of purpose I had while I was in. I miss knowing exactly what I needed to do to get promoted. I do make waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more money than I did then, but I am not as satisfied with the kind of work I do now. I program for a living (which I did not get to do then, so that is cool (I think)), but I don't particularly enjoy the fact that it is in support of an endless hustle for greenbacks.
Anyways, I don't know if maybe I didn't know any better at the time, but I still haven't seen the level of organization out here that I witnessed while I was in. A lot of the companies I have worked for in the 12 or so years since I got out were growing ones though.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The material benefits won't be as easily accessible, but your life will be infinitely more enjoyable, because you'll actually have some control over it.
Just curious, how does one retire at 42 working in a small company?
Yes....things will continue to be as bad all around as executives and managers continue to hire people dumber than they are, who won't threaten their very own jobs and positions in the workplace.
Dilbert was written by Scott Adams from his IT desk at Pacific Bell about his daily work environment in cubeland. Having worked developing IT for businesses and governments on all 4 coasts of America (OK, Great Lakes in Canada, not the Arctic), for over a decade and a half, I can tell you that his cubeland stretches from sea to shining sea, as well as from the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli. And it's always been that way.
Which is good news. Many thousands of people have found careers doing interesting, lucrative work among the sea of nonsense that is the business world. It just takes a sense of humor. If you still want more after a military IT career, you're probably qualified.
--
make install -not war
In my opinion, they're amateurs on an unjustified power trip.
First of all, my hat's off to all who have served our country in the military, but something is very, very strange and wrong going on with the way the AF and Army train their IT folks and what quality of actual usable knowledge, experience and attitudes those people have when they leave the service and apply for their first civilian IT jobs after leaving the service. I used to be a hiring manager for an organization that primarily did systems integration, installations and support for state and local government and we interviewed a lot of newly ex-mil IT applicants and the above statement generally hits the nail right on the head. Of course there were exceptions to the rule, but by and large it seemed like most of these applicants got very little broad-coverage training in the real IT world, but instead were all pidgeon-holed into little isolated sub-sections of IT training and knowledge without being able to be immediately competant at the "big picture" without substantial re-training and what I'd call "reverse brainwashing". Yet every one of them thought they knew it all better than everyone else, and one of the most common answers in the interview questions about where they saw themselves in 3 to five years of working for us was "to become the senior manager/director of the whole IT department"... in other words to run off the existing boss and take over. Wrong answer.
Amateurs on an unjustified power trip indeed.
We did hire a few of these over the years and they turned out to be some of the worst IT employees we ever had. A recurring theme was a lack of respect for proper software licensing. One particular worst offender would take a master copy of the full corporate MS Office Professional edition and install it on every desktop he touched regardless of whether the customer had purchased the full version for that machine or not. Of course the end-users loved it, but when the tech was confronted with what he was doing he said that he knew he would not be the one getting in trouble for it, but rather his boss would and the sooner he could get the boss in trouble or fired, the better chance he thought he'd have to move up, take over and "rule with an iron fist".
I'm posting A/C because now my company considers ex-military IT techs at the very bottom of the list when hiring due to too many problems we've had with them in the past. We actively discriminate against them due to getting burned too many times.
The best quality IT folks we've been hiring the past couple years now come from two radically different groups of people. The first group is the young Computer Science geeks right out of college who are still trainable/mouldable before they can pick up too many bad habits, and the second groups is older college degreed people (late 30's to early-mid 40's) who have had one non-IT professional career for a while (but were above-average proficient as technology users) and then have gone back to school to get their CompSci or MIS degrees and have changed careers to the IT field.
Yes! I have been working as a software engineer for AMD for almost 6 months and I have to say I love it. There is always detachment between upper management and tech workers (there has to be). As long as the corporate policies aren't too braindead and middle-management is in touch with both the needs of upper management and the workers, things are good. There are a couple of policies that bother me (one related to IT in fact) but other than that they are mostly benign. My immediate manager (and the manager above that) will sometimes seem detached from the tech side of things, but never so much as to be frustrating, and they are always knowledgeable enough to understand my problems.
:)
I have heard horror stories of other companies, and the unfortunate thing is that when things start to go that way for a company, all of the good people jump shipt pretty quickly. So you _can_ end up in a pretty terrible position. Remember that when you are being interviewed, you should be interviewing them too. Ask about teamwork, and how the person likes their job. The appropriate response is for them to be glowing about their job... not just say "it's ok" and then stall to try and think of something good to say
Good luck to you.
I can certainly commiserate with you, though I cannot offer you any advice aside from "kids: stay in school". I'm in a very similar situation, except there are just enough people in my squadron who transferred from other, more gun-toting branches and specialties, so there is a distinct flavor of military BS along with the corporate. Indeed, my experience in the Air Force is nothing less than an unholy cross between the Dilbert and Beetle Bailey comics, complete with many of the stereotypes in each comic; some individuals even embody a character from each comic. And yes, I've had my share of Pointy-Haired NCOs in my chain of command.
I was in the Navy for over ten years, I've been out for over fifteen. Overall, the Navy officers were better managers, more competent, more fair, more honest, better planners, and more flexible and better at dealing with people than most of the civilian managers I've worked for. I met a number of them that were not nice people, but that was a minority.
Remember, Dilbert is based mainly, though not exclusively, on experiences of people in the _civilian_ sector, not the military. So consider yourself warned.
Not sure why you would expect the private sector to be better than the military.
The only loyalty corporations are required to maintain is loyalty to the almighty dollar.
One reason the military is more snafu'd than usual is because they began importing modern corporate management techniques several decades ago. If you don't believe me, re-read Colin Powell's autobiography sometime...
Hi, AirmanTux,
I was a missile launch officer in SAC for four years, so I claim to know about military bureaucracy. I met my wife years later, and she worked for Fortune 100 corporation - we'd sit and chat about how similar the bureaucracies were. I think most large organizations share many of the same issues.
I worked at a small law firm, where I had direct client contact and thought of myself as helping people. My wife got tired of the bureaucracy and left her big corporation for a small company where she could make a difference. Unfortunately, her immediate supervisor turned out to be loony, the sole product failed, and my wife left for another small company. It was acquired by a larger company in another country, management left, and so did my wife when transnational management became unwieldy. She worked for another small company that had product failures and layoffs. She's now working for another small company which had a failure in one of its products and many layoffs. They're now looking for a smaller company to buy.
I guess the executive summary is that there's no hope. Uh, no. I mean, there's always a chance of leaping out of the frying pan and into the fire, although I have managed to avoid it - sheer chance, not any skill on my part nor lack of skill on hers. There are problems in big companies and small, just different problems.
Good luck and _have_fun_.
I suggest flipping a coin to decide. I can't tell which but it appears to be one of those.
Why is it that when you believe something it's an opinion, but when I believe something it's a manifesto?
The best job I've ever had (and still do have) is a police officer for a small town. There are few coworkers. There are lots of constraints and regulations, but the politics (while present) have not affected me.
Most importantly: I'm happy doing it. My job in the IT field was the worst I've ever had, and I don't miss it. The seven years I spent doing it aren't a total loss, but they come pretty close to it. Stress, health problems, politics, bad coworkers, customer problems galore.
I've also enjoyed small jobs at "hole in the wall" retail stores and restaurants. When the top decision maker works beside you every day, and you frequently spend time away from work as friends, it's an excellent work environment. It's not IT, but I know there are IT shops like this out there.
Smaller is better. I wouldn't work for a company with more than 100 employees, and I'd prefer one with 30 or fewer.
My department has 60, but my chain of command is only 8.
Small companies ... bad.
... worse.
Big companies
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Far worse...
'cos in a business you can be forced to use a technically inferior product because of capitalization and depreciation. I.e., even if some software is pure crap, and you know technically it's crap, the business may still tell you to deploy it because of some intricacies of finance...
Then there's things like sinking $50K into a project that will be completed a scant two months before it's ripped out and made obsolete by another system. Why? It has to do with -- yup -- some intricacies of financing. Apparently it's somehow better for the business to sink the money into a dead system than put it toward the new. The explanation of how this works is boggling.
Why would a business lease patch cables for $2/month? I have no clue. It has to do, again, with financing. Something about expense versus capital. I can't figure this one out, even with the explanation.
It's often better to *not* put a policy in place than put a supremely lax one in. E.g., say you want a department wide policy on log rotation. You can put together a "best practices" document, but can get in trouble if you enforce it. Forget about making a standard, because that would cause all sorts of problems.
I've seen one manager continue to champion a horrible product because... he championed it in the beginning. The product has now proven itself, beyond a doubt, to be crap. It uses kernel hooks for simple filespace monitoring. It requires a weekly reboot or else causes problems. It's pure garbage. We know it's garbage, but the manager refuses to let it be removed. Saving face? Kickbacks? I don't know. It's so bad that we've scripted monitors that HUP the process when it grows too large.
I mean really, are you freaking joking???
My Advice: Don't ever look back or join Civil Service. Look for a smaller company -- maybe even a startup -- that will help you to deveop your interests beyond IT. Look first at the companies that were your vendors. When the company ceases to be nimble, or you have learned up to your abilty & are comfortable, LEAVE. Take an expat. if you can. Continue this pattern every 5-8 years.
Some places remember that in a more personal and direct way. You can actually hear a fair number of the software engineers at my company debating what the best development direction to take is based on a business sense perspective. A small company that understands itself, its customers and its market can be double of some other company.
On the other hand, maybe that mission isn't the right thing to make you care about waking up in the morning.
There are different corporate cultures out there. If it matters to you, shop around until you find a team that fits.
Start Running Better Polls
I think I have a pretty good perspective on the "Dilbert factor". I have worked for Chevron (9 years), IBM (3 months) and McKinsey (2 years) and was 1 degree of separation from Scott Adams when he was at Pacific Bell. So there's my big company experience.
On the other side, I am the owner of a 15 person IT consulting firm which services only companies of 10 to 200, and so I have worked with over 50 companies of this size - in addition to owning one.
Here is the simple truth of the matter:
If a small company runs on politics, rather than business sense, it goes out of business. Yes there are exceptions - owner has a huge chunk of cash to burn - but this is very largely true. So there is very little b.s. in small business.
In large businesses, sad but true, it becomes very very hard to distinguish the true business contribution of one person from another. Also, the consequence of a good / bad decision may take years to come to light. So, whether people say so or not, you are judged on how well you fit into the culture. If you know this, understand it and accept it, you will do fine. If you act like a typical engineer and say "but my idea was better", you will be miserable. Instead of being upset at the fact that the MBA's are running the show, sit back and ask yourself why that is. If you are as smart as you think you are - you will figure it out.
The fact is that the success of big business depends on people working together. And this quality, one of fitting in, is easier to pick out than what the true ROI of converting all those Windows servers to Linux is.
Think really, really hard on this. Don't reject reality and say "it stinks" - use a bit of ju jitsu - accept reality, understand why this reality exists, and use that understanding in an effective way to achieve your personal vision of success.
A way of thinking
This reality stinks
It shouldn't be this way
I can't affect what happens
A better way of thinking
What is really going on here?
It is this way, why is that so?
I can affect how I react to what happens.
Do this and you may be very happy at a big business since you will learn how to rise within it to the point that you have real influence. If you don't understand this you will be frustrated regardless of where you work.
Consider everything you've ever heard about the two best bases in the world. That's true about who you work for as well.
I did 4.5 yrs active and another 3 with the guard. I've worked in the private sector and for state and local government. Here's how I see it:
When I was "in" there was one thing I knew for certain, the USAF was the most disorganized Mickey Mouse operation in the world. Not a doubt in my mind. It's amazing how I knew everything when I was between 19 and 24.
After working for all these other places and governments I am now certain that the USAF is one of the most organized teams anywhere in the world. They have a plan, they train for the plan and they execute the plan. Nobody anywhere else does it as well as they do.
If you want organization and logic, it doesn't get any better.
No, I'm not joking.
. Quit playing Monopoly with Bill. Switch to one of many non-Microsoft products today.
The IT group I work in is very Dilbert-esque; fortunately it doesn't spread wider than that.
Our small group has a manager who basically has no management skills, has only spotty technical knowledge (for a long time the Windows guys assumed he was a Unix person, while the Unix guys assumed just the opposite), and caves to even the slightest amount of political pressure from above. He's a nice enough guy, but really has no business running the group - if he were applying for one of our jobs, he likely wouldn't make it past a screening interview.
We (the rest of the group) have had numerous jaw-dropping moments when we find out from our non-IT coworkers some of the "technical" advice he's given them. Many of them are beginning to figure out that he doesn't know much, but most of the higher-ups still think he's an IT genius.
We recently found that he earns more than twice what any of the rest of us make, of course...
What keeps me and the others working here? Once you get outside the group, we've got a lot of great people. It's a fun place to work, most of the time, as long as you can avoid the boss's drive-by management. I've gotten pretty good at it, and the non-IT folks have learned to come to me directly to discuss projects. We've also learned to play the political game to our advantage; so the worthwhile projects are getting time spent on them now.
Well, The absolute opposite of working in a big company is to become an independent 1 person company working in a network with people you like and understand. I am doing that for 5 years now and we as a network have grown to become a true international network of internet professionals: designers, communicators, software engineers. No bosses, no employees, you decide, you choose, you are responsible for everything you do. I LOVE IT.
Upon getting a job with a large corporation, I was amazed at the amount of BS there. It made the military look like an efficient & well-oiled machine.
I agree. After leaving the Army, I moved through several jobs. The nonprofit world was amazing. Determining accountability for anything was like trying to nail jello to a wall. Government contracting made me realize that people who create small contracting companies and latch onto a contract or two are on the gravy train. The way government spending works, you pretty much *must* spend the money your contracting agency has allocated for you. If I had the stomach to put up with Inside-the-Beltway bullshit, I would have gone into government contracting. Big businesses (I speak only from experience with the Silicon Valley kind) are often full of energy, but the biggest problem, as with the rest of the civilian world, is that organizational leaders simply do not have much leadership training.
I don't know how it was for you in the Air Force, but I was in general impressed with the leaders I worked for in the Army. I'm sure to some degree it's a matter of your specialty, plus luck of the draw. But when you find a set of good leaders in the civilian world, in my experience it is a rare treat. Even the juggernauts of the Information Age have a great deal of employee churn, and they seldom devote necessary resources to adequately training leaders (mid-level managers in particular). That's where the Dilbert Factor is nurtured and brought to full bloom.
Others have mentioned this, but you may truly find that going small and/or going it alone may work for you. If you can maintain the military work ethic, you'll probably have an advantage over most of your competitors, at least in the areas of initiative, attention to detail, knowledge of the importance of planning, and ability to prioritize.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
I have tried to learn over the years to go with the flow. In particular, I've formed a set of little rules:
* Don't take stuff personally, you cannot make everyone happy.
* People don't like criticism of their work. Don't criticize. Use very indirect hints to guide them and if they don't bite on the hints, let it go.
* Bullshit happens everywhere. You cannot start a personal jihad against all or even most bullshit.
* Pick your battles carefully. If you want to change an organization, be selective and patient about where you choose to make a stand.
* If you want personal fullfillment, then perhaps find a hobby outside of work that provides it.
* Work is work. Put in your hours, do a good job, and then go home to have a real life.....or a fake one if that floats your boat.
* Respect other points of view. Sometimes people have wisdom that is hard for them to articulate, but is useful nevertheless.
The list is often easier said than done. As techies we often want to fix organizations and people, not just machines and software. But I feel as a group we have to resist this urge, or at least tone it down.
Table-ized A.I.
Do an internet search on FCS, DDX, Deepwater, or SBIRS.
Work for a defense contractor. I do. I'm an honorably discharged Vet.
I enlisted for the closest thing to IT in the Army that I could find and found it to be a not-so-good decision, but after finishing my degree and finding a Defense Contractor to work for, I'm blessed with the benefits of both worlds.
There is corruption in every system, and I'm sure someone could find corruption in the company I work for if they wanted to. The leadership is made up of a high percentage of retired military people, and there are both good and bad things about that. I look at the good ones and enjoy working for the company and have no doubt that I'll be successful with them as long as they are successful.
They do a few "Dilbert" type things, but so did the Army.
To clarify about my "not-so-good" decision: I loved serving my country, just didn't like the Army's version of IT. It wasn't challenging at all.
I worked in the civilian sector BEFORE I joined the military. Comparing civs to military is like comparing a rusted out steamboat to a brand new aircraft carrier. Now I've got CEO's coming in to observe us, and marveling at such things as the efficiency of our O-groups. If you're unhappy doing IT or the mil, you'll hate the civ industry even more.
A company you hear is generally pure hell to work at, a given department or team in a department may well be one of the best places ever to work. And a company with a stellar reputation for treating their employees well, might have a department or team within a department that is a crapfest of politics and incompetence.
So when researching a potential company, try to get as close to the specific job you are applying for as possible.
Intelligently dissecting what in your own manual is BS is what they are looking for in management... could be wrong.
Actually I've found the opposite to be the case. As you gain depper knowledge in some areas you do not have to deal with as many general firefights - only specific ones.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
IT is a very poor career choice these days. A lot of jobs have already gone offshore and more follow every week. There are a lot of qualified people chasing a shrinking number of jobs - result, salaries and career prospects generally are going downhill.
If you're smart enough to learn new things, get out of IT. Retrain in almost anything else. Or go into sales, where you can learn on-the-job. Low income for a while, but good salespeople can earn big bucks.
When Bob got his project greenlighted when my supervisor did not, because Bob was capable of making a business case for it at a meeting chaired by the guy he'd been grooming for months, was that B.S? Seems to me like thats "creative use of resources". You can either continue to laugh ruefully at the world and scorn "small talk" and "politics" and "useless meetings and reports and that bureacratic "#$"%" or you can be like Bob.
Help poke pirates in the eyepatch, arr.
It's true that even higher level or more specialized work is never a magic bullet from wrong-headedness and downright bad choices from above. But think of what you were saying, you went into a meeting, gave a message and had it rejected. At least you had a chance to give your message before action was taken. Working in a more general context at a lower level you are far more of a pawn, never to be asked and only to be told. The aim is to get to a place where you are at least able to speak up before choices are made even if the people listening will not always listen.
It's better to complain they aren't listening to something you said rather than not being able to speak and complaining anyway.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
3c0x1? x2 here. IMO, I can't imagine the same level of bullshit and mismanagement flys in the private sector. They have an incentive not to waste money. Good luck, I have about 1.5 years left.
I'm posting A/C because now my company considers ex-military IT techs at the very bottom of the list when hiring due to too many problems we've had with them in the past. We actively discriminate against them due to getting burned too many times.
My last company was just the opposite. About 1/2 our IT team was ex military (myself included). Navy and Air Force. No prima donnas, no ego trips.
I have been an IT manager for over 17 years and I make it a point to hire military over civilian IT personel. This is mostly due to the work ethic. Many civilian IT folk have serious personality disorders, anger issues, social issues and most of their competency is theoretical. In other words there are millions of IT folk who have heard of this and that, but they lack real world application or completion skills. Recently I hired an army networking guy over a cisco certified applicant and paid for the ex-military guy to get his cert, this was simply because I know where his work ethic will be and the ex-military I have hired have been very concerned with the end result, while non military experienced seem to be caught up in a theoretical world...
Not voting is no good.
I will happily grant you that both major candidates may suck in any given election and that you might well want to protest by not voting for either one. (I do not agree with your idealistic "sullying my hands" position - I think if one of those candidates is less bad to you you should vote for them, and I think in most real cases one candidate is less bad to you if you bother to check. But that's not my major point, so I'll assume they're exactly even for now.)
But the _biggest_ consistent problem we have which makes the two candidates both suck is that the two incumbent parties have a strangehold on who we get to choose from. Voting for a third party candidates drives up the visibility of third parties existing and drives up the likelihood that OTHER people will vote for third parties.
As a bonus, if enough people do it for a presidental campaign then they get federal election money.
Looking for freelance Actionscript (Flash/Flex) or ColdFusion work and/or freelance developers. Email me, put Slashdot
You can achieve a similar effect in a large organisation by keeping an eye out for intelligent people who are seeking to achieve meaningful things. Every large organisation is made up of smaller groups and the dynamics and suck/un-suck factor varies between them. My old boss is working for a different government department entirely, but has managed to attract a pool of taleneted, motivated people and they have a good project to work on where they reall have a chance to make the country a better place (I'd go join him, but I'm already working in quite a nice team on some rather cool stuff).
The goal is to work for people who appreciate your skills and talents so that when you apply for work elsewhere, you have a cool resume and a bunch of people who really like the work you do.
Similarly, there are also wastelands filled with disillusioned people who spend 12 hours each day stressing over pointless management failures. If you end up in one of those, consider it a platform from which to find something less awful.
Xix.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
All large/huge organizations I have worked for have exactly these issues you mention. This is mostly about human nature. Not about political inclination. And maybe a tiny bit about culture. After six years of working you should have figured that out. Maybe by taking your eyes off the monitor for a couple of moments a day.
Grow up buddy!
I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
You know you are a Dilbert when staying in a job more than one year is worth a congratulatory plaque printed out from "color" printer, not a laser printer.
You know you are a Dilbert when your company policy is to refer fellow co-workers as "Team".
You know you are a Dilbert when your company IT policy covers telephone, fax and copier usage.
You know you are a Dilbert when a coffee break means a break from people around you.
You know you are a Dilbert when you spend time composing IT infrastructure proposal, 50% pretty pictures and 50% marketing buzz word conversion.
You know you are a Dilbert when you filter internal emails like spam.
You know you are a Dilbert when bandwidth hogs complain the most about slow internet access.
You know you are a Dilbert when you are one man IT department.
"Don't let fools fool you. They are the clever ones."
I can't believe how many people fall for this sort of thing. The parent is quite obviously a troll - he switches from being a hiring manager at some point in the past ('used to be a hiring manager ..') to currently working for a company that discriminates against ex-military applicants ('we actively discriminate ..').
.. yep- troll. Nice try, though.
Additionally, just reading the first paragraph, it's quite obvious the poster re-worded things quite a bit -- too many extra words.
All that, plus he's posting a very controversial opinion as an AC
This holds true for anywhere I've worked. Competence, abiliy, availability, honesty willingness to work hard & other such virtues will only get you assigned more meaningless shitwork. No sane manager will promote an honest, capable man to any position of responsibility ( other than as a sacrifice ) because bastards are easier to control & are more predictable. No one knows what an honest, responsible man may do & in any event honesty and responsibility hardly fit into your standard bussiness model.
There are good jobs in IT that aren't as Dilbert driven. There is always some of it no question no matter where you go, private industry, universities, etc. Don't fool yourself into thinking "oh that industry has to be better!" I've found a great job doing networking/security work after working in large corporations, universities, and start ups. All of them had their inane moments, some more than others. I've got a job now that pays well, with good co-workers, and a CIO who is very tuned into his people and backs us up. Smaller organizations do help.
If you find a company which pays pretty well, doing something you like, even if there are a few Dilbert moments, stick with it. Changing jobs won't make the problems go away.
You asked: "Are there any 'honest' places to work any more (where promotions/awards are based on work preformed and bureaucracy, and politics aren't encouraged to supplant the 'mission)"
The answer, sadly, is a resounding no.
Your individual skills (troubleshooting, coding, organising, selling, whatever) are the stuff that you _do_. The "work" part of work IS the politics. The "work" part of work is dealing with 9-5, 5 days a week on the books, and 8-7 and sometimes on weekends in reality.
That's why it's called "work" and not "play". That's why you get paid money -- because while we would probably all continue to code, mess with hardware, organise, conceptualise in our free time should we not be working -- we expect a big pay packet to deal with the bullshit.
It's the difference between micro-evolution and macro-evolution. You can micro-evolve in any company -- go from Programmer 3rd Class to Programmer 2nd Class, for example -- but to completely move up or even across the ladder is rare, precisely because if you're actually good at what you do, you won't be good at the things that guarantee promotion.
Google the "Peter Principle". Look up the "60% rule" (60% of your time inside any company bigger than 10 people will be spent on servicing "how things are done around here" -- not actually your "job description" stuff).
Work is work, and if you're lucky the stuff you're actually good at will align slightly with it.
I don't know that military orgainisations are that great. I got a military tank driver's license and have never been inside a tank! Many commercial organisations are really worse than this.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
From what I know of life, the reason that Dilbirt is so popular is because it shows what real life is, just in the extreem though. If you search hard enough, I'm sure you can find something that is almost devoid of the bullshit, and I hope you can find it. Because when I enter the serious job market in a few years, I hope there is someplace to go where I don't have to kiss the asses of idiots to get a promotion.
Jus FYI... most of the world has become a "big living Dilbert strip". If you are not a part of the strip you are probably dying of hunger or some commercially non-interesting disease somewhere deep in Africa, Asia or South America.
Maybe someone else actually answered your question, but I scanned the top-rate responses and didn't see it. So here goes.
/.'ers: before you burn me, consider the class of issues that this guy raised. If you want to gamble on getting rich, join a startup. If you want to move into management someday, join a big technical company. But if you want organization, stable management, and merit-based rewards... good luck finding that anywhere. Sadly, IMHO, the best that this world offers, as a whole, are defense contractors and well-funded colleges.
No. Given your concerns - disorganization and mismanagement, merit-rewards and bureaucracy - non-military employers are, in my experience, always worse in every category.
This is simply the nature of the beast. The military loves to plan, and is allowed to. Its budgets are set ahead of time, its goals and standards are relatively well-defined and stable, its policies and merit system relatively clear cut.
The closer you get to a purely commercial venture, the farther away you get from all of those things. An aggressively company in a competitive market is much more reactive than pre-planned. Budget and goals can change instantly as management's perception of the market changes. One twitchy exec can wipe out a whole division in a heartbeat. Even when the business is stable, standards and policies tend to be ad hoc. Such standards and policies that do exist, exist only to make your life harder. If you try to do something new, you have to convince the bureaucracy first; but if something non-standard and anti-policy does get done, you will have to accomodate it: nobody is going to pay the replace a working dohicky with a compliant dohicky that does the same thing.
As for merits and rewards: while your supervisor may try to be fair (or may not), the bigger issue is that he can only split the pot he is given. If you do brilliant, excellent work for a company, (or division of a company, or product line within the division) which is not profitable "enough", you get nada. Conversely, if you are a lucky screw-off who works for a group that fell into and owns a particularly profitable niche, you can do pretty well even though you and everybody else are almost worthless. Whether that is good or bad, it's hard to argue that it's fair.
In my opinion, having worked for a range of employers, you will find the easiest transition at defense contractors or well-heeled acedemic institutions. They tend to plan and have stable budgets, and don't worry to much about competively pressures. If you are spectacularly brilliant, you might find that one of the big, successful high-tech companies you. They can be horrible places, but if they are big enough, rich enough, and you are good enough, you can be insulated against much of that horribleness. But, most important of all, stay away from startups - especially privately-held startups - double especially family-owned startups. The unfairness and disorder found there would leave you absolutely breathless.
Note to
"Lord, grant that I may always be right, for Thou knowest that I am hard to turn" -- A Scots-Irish prayer
I thought I was dreaming when I first saw this. He is serious. Did you go through "basic training"? Your job is to kill, oh airman, your job is to help us army guys kill. I had a "military intelligence" MOS back in the '80's' our job then was to kill. I was not terribly surprised to learn that my military skills only had one value in the public sector. This sob will follow orders. Reup or get real. -mark
I joined my current company as employee 16 and the company is now up to 60. When I was hired I reported directly to the VP of engineering. Recently he became overwhelmed as the Engineering team grew to 20. We hired to senior engineers/managers just under him. I was able to interview and recommend my own boss! I am very happy with the situation.
What you want to look for:
If those three items are met, you will work in a non-dilbert workplace.
As for the fringe benefits, I agree that smaller companies may not have onsite health clubs, volleball courts, or free meals in a cafeteria like some large famous companies now do. However in my experience, to attract talent, they have to pay salary above the average, and the the health plans they offer are just as good as big companies. Plus you may be offered stock options that have the potential to become worth a heck of a lot (but don't count on them).
Subject says it all. There are good people everywhere, and even the most corrupt workplaces have pockets of good. Outside the military you have much more control over your own fate. You can almost always immediately change your job and location, and fairly rapidly change your profession as well.
Looks like you are going to have to get used to that. Don't fall into the trap of blaming your environment for your own lack of drive and initative.
Good luck.
On the other hand, many small companies are not very sound financially. They tend to drop like flies when the economy turns down. A recession is not a good time to be looking for a job.
You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
http://dribibu.xs4all.nl/dilberteng.html
Ever think of Microsoft, i hear they're all upstanding, clean living folks there.
You could always find out about working for a charity such as Oxfam etc, in their IT department, along with a decent salery you'll also be actually helping the world. Downside to this is that the sector is VERY competitive.
i know not what weapons the next world war will be fought with, but world war IV will be fought with sticks and stones.
If you honestly care about your work, and are not afraid to leave your comforts in US, come to India, Most private companies here do value your skills and knowledge, and most of the time your promotions/awards are based on the work that you do. While the salary is going to be 1/10 th of what you have in US, the cost of living is 1/20 th, so it kind of evens out.
~561
Research companies before you apply and make sure to ask lots of questions. Job interviews are not just about selling yourself to the company. Most companies also want (and need) to sell themselves to you. Remember, that they need you otherwise they wouldn't bother giving you the time of day... (Accept any company that says that they will hire you.)
If you land a job with a company, and then find out that it was a mistake, be professional and do the best job you can, but be alert. Build your connections until you can find a better workplace and/or start your own company.
Also, the value of (good) political sense and fitting in shouldn't be undervalued. Must useful work (including IT) involves collaboration and teamwork. Sure, people sometimes get promoted because of social rather than technical skills but this isn't always bad. From the employer's standpoint it doesn't matter how smart YOU are, it matters how smart the team works together...
...the Army's Enterprise Portal. We live the concepts of 'the geek meritocracy' every day. Poised to morph into Defense Knowledge Online, AKO is only gonna get bigger and better. Our motto is "You Can Have a Job, or You Can Have a Job That Matters: AKO". Give us a call.
When I saw "The leadership factor" in your headline, I was expecting an utter load of B.S. It seems like "leadership" in the context of management often becomes something the manager idly says to himself within the solitude of his own head. Like so: "I must display leadership!"
Needless to say, the acts of leadership that follow tend towards being anemic.
I believe that natural leadership can stem from experience or a combination of ambient understanding and will for the common good. One needs to be the guy that motions towards initiative, and cuts through when at seeming impasses. Of course, if one hasn't developed a natural feel and propensity for that, it may be easier to focus on cover sheets and TPS reports and call the rest "delegation" without even knowing what's implicitly being delegated.
Anyways, I've had too many headaches with these things, suffice it to say that these days I know what I'm looking for in an employer.
Most of these problems are the result of informational inefficiencies. So therefore, don't count on them continuing! The status quo may look like it's set in stone, but it's quite plausible to imagine that in a few years, some Google will crack the dataflow problems, and give the world big business that actually works on quality rather than politics.
Regarding your comment ... "I've been told by a man who received all his promotions from his uncle that political harmony is frequently more important than security ideals."
I hate to sound like "the bad guy" here but there may be truth to this in many organizations. I am not an expert on managment (never even been a manager myself) but I have an older relative (now retired) that was a human resources consultant. He was very good at this and charged close to a thousand dollars an hour for consulting on human resources at the management level only. What he would do is go into a company, or divison for a company, and interview all the upper and sometimes mid-upper level managers, and more or less write a report on who to fire and how the company should restructure management. He had a great track record and typically could reduce the management payroll by 1/3 for his clients while keeping the same production level at the company.
What was the key to doing this? He never told his clients this directly but his primary technique was to use techniques from psychology to judge the personalities of the various managers and come up with units that would work really well together. The first person he would interview was the the head of the company or divison and he would then aline himslef with this person and make all his judgements based on who would work well with him, who would work well with those people and so on. His reasoning was "if the president is the problem than the company is screwed anyway, if he is good then getting people that will work the way he wants them to work will create the most well oiled machine possible."
I can honestly say that at my current job I do see some truth to this. I work at an IT consulting/research institute and feel that it is the best run workplace I have ever worked at. Granted it is not a very large company since there is just over 100 of us working here but I have never worked anywhere where the moral was so high and where the harmony was so good. Some of the people I work with that have been here a long time have stayed at their job instead of taking higher paying jobs somewhere else because the work moral is so good here. This really does help with day to day stress and for myself it is a key to me saying "this is the best job I have ever had". Its nice to come into work at a place where people dont hate on eachother and where there is just a general feeling of everyone getting along.
The irony in all this is that the president openly says "I like people that say yes" and even puts this on slides when he gives speechs at "information days" for the employees about what is going on. Also, everyone of my bosses above me seems to think very similar to the president. Not just in how things should be run but in general.
Whats the point of this? The point is that maybe things are working well because the president is good at his job and because there is very little political fighting etc. in the workplace since most of the management thinks the same way, and probably does a good job of hireing people that are similar to them as well. The places I have worked at before that I thought were run poorly all seemed to have the opposite in common, where there was an environment with lots of fighting and personality conflicts and all that.
So, back to the origional post. Maybe there is somewhat of a Dilbert environment in the workplace because politics IS really important to making companies run well. Perhaps it is important at least at the management level that everyone works really well together. And as for finding a job you like, also try to make a judgement of the potential employer during the interview and see if you can find a place where people are sort of similar to you. I noticed from some other posts that there were some places that had horrible experiences with ex-military and others that preferred them. Maybe a workplace with lots of ex-military there already (or people that are similar to you in so
Short of forming your own business and working for yourself, working for Corporate America is like living the cartoon strip Dilbert. This is from a guy that retired 2 years ago from a F100 blue chip company. I use to tell my management that their job was to make my job as difficult as possible and to throw up every road block possible to prevent me from accomplishing what I was hired for; repairing computers. This use to piss them off, but they didn't could not do anything as I was one of their top performers. I currently run my own business and enjoy life once again.
Are there any 'honest' places to work any more (where promotions/awards are based on work preformed and bureaucracy, and politics aren't encouraged to supplant the 'mission), or has America become one big living Dilbert strip?"
Yes, there are but you will only make half as much money. Small streamlined businesses frequently cannot afford the dilbert-like BS. Big business seem to breed it. The sad fact is that when you go to work for a big company, hiding your screw-ups gets easier and protecting your job becomes more important than doing it. Eventually, Darwanism weeds out those who cannot protect their job (and are more concerned with doing it). Eventually the "Protectors" are all you have left.
Are there any 'honest' places to work any more (where promotions/awards are based on work preformed and bureaucracy, and politics aren't encouraged to supplant the 'mission), or has America become one big living Dilbert strip?"
I don't know if there are any? My girlfriend works for the local County Office of Education. From what she tells me, I can surmise that it's nothing more than a bureaucracy that lives only to maintain the federal funding coming it's way. Tax-payer payed luncheons, "elected" Superintendents that force everybody who didn't support their campaign, or thinks the same way, to resign. That Superintendent has currently resigned to join this state's actor governor's cabinet, but has pretty much molded, and placed, the new Superintendent. Did I mention that the Superintendent was a Republican? I'm not saying a Democrat would be any better, but go figure. Oh, and before election campaigns started, the current Superintnedent (the guys who's gonna make it "big" with the actor governator, warned all employees not to show support for any candidate, because they might not be on the winning end and have to leave. Also, my girlfriend is questioned about her personal days off, because she might be out being "political."
I tell my girlfriend that public institutions, meant to help the public, start off with a liberal idealogue, with probably full and honest intentions. But after a while, conservative hands come into play and run the project into a ditch, and won't let go of it, turning it into a cash cow (while conservatives are in control). Only until it's known that the institution does not work (as controlled by conservatives, but nobody's judging) for the public interest, is that institution either closed or "fixed", i.e. education vouchers, or W's social security plan. First you wreck the plan while milking it, then you close it, and pass that into private sector (who voted for you).
The original Dilbert came from a large telco-related business, but I think the Dilbert experience is bitterly experienced throughout the business community. An honest engineer is a philosophical engineer, one who accepts the reality of politics and bureaucracy as part of the landscape. It's not enough to just be good at your work, you need to be able to tolerate the environment you work in.
Smaller companies are likely to have more transparent politics and bureaucracy. If you're sensitive to that issue, look for a smaller organization.
Best regards.
If you have high level clearances you really should consider becoming a 1099 (Independent Contractor). In the Washington, D.C. area there are a huge number of jobs that are looking for cleared IT people. The large employers are looking to hire folks straight out but are so "hurting" that they will bring folks on as ICs. There are also companies who hire nothing but ICs. No benefits but they pay really well when compared to traditional companies (who continue to reduce benefits).
Most employers don't really offer any long term benefits anymore (e.g., pensions, health care, job security, etc.) so don't plan on staying long if you do hire on as a regular employee. Use it as a means to end where you can develop contacts and develop your exit strategy. There really isn't any reason to line their pockets when you can stuff yours.
You'll be responsible for your all of your own "benefits" (vacation, sick leave, health care, dental, disability, life insurance, 401K) but it's amazing how much more you can earn while still having a really nice portable "benefit package". On the deferred compensation front (e.g., 401k) alone as an IC you can sock away about $40k per year v. $15k of your money plus maybe $6k of an employers.
For those who read this and don't have clearances the road to becoming an IC is a bit tougher but doable. Still, the big companies don't want a long term relationship with their employees anymore so consider working your way toward becoming your own boss. You care about you more than any company ever will.
With that kind of attitude, I guarantee you that you won't get very far in business. Politics is part of any organization, and it serves real and important functions in actually getting things done. You better get used to that and learn to live with it.
Being aware of politics doesn't mean that you need to turn into a Machiavellian maniac, it means that you recognize how things work, try to improve things where you can, and still have the smarts to survive when other people screw up or conspire against you (and always keep in mind that screw-ups are far more frequent than deception).
Having said that, there are some bad organizations out there that really don't function well; you can try to spot them before you get into them, but if you find yourself in a bad situation, just start looking for a new job.
Welcome to the real world... all you can do is become more and more cynical, until you at some point come to the realization that there are very few sane people on this little planet.
Capital driven economic effects trickle down to the empowered.
If you can sell yourself, you can be hired into any job position.
If you work well with others, you may pass Go and collect $$$.
A problem with working for a small company, if you are very good
(for the business) it can become a large company.
In the big business world, the sharks keep the Dilberts / Dingberts around for a food source.
You're right, how well you polish your boots doesn't really indicate your job performance.
But it is the military equivalent of professionalism.
For many situations, you will get a better response if you appear to be a professional. From bankers and executives in suits, to office cleaners or restaurant cooks in uniforms, or even just a standard T shirt.
They've done studies on food and found that the way it is presented does affect the customers satisfaction.
Presentation matters, the military has standards to ensure that all present that standard of presentation. When some big politician comes on base they don't see a lot of lazy bums hanging around, they should see a lot of sharp and attentive soldiers waiting for their next assignment.
many people who also think that their ideas are unique, creative, and valuable, just like you do. So what are the challenges and how do you deal with them?
The Golden Rule can provide a lot of guidance to you. Here are some points to consider:
1. Your ideas are valuable. You deserve and should expect (a) respectful hearing of your thoughts, (b) reasoned responses to your ideas, and (c) civil respect whether you make your case or not.
2. How other people behave are the most important determinants of how they are treated. If they are cynical, they will be isolated. If they are judgmental, they will be excluded. If they make personal attacks, they will be avoided. But if they are helpful, they will be sought out. If they are open to other's suggestions, they will get support. And if they are kind, they will be treated with respect.
3.For each of the above observations, switch the "you" and "they" and think if you are applying that rule.
4. Every idea has its time. Maybe it's not now. If you have a great idea, maybe you are thinking too far ahead or from a different perspective. The best way to have your idea accepted is (a) think your idea through from the perspective of the person or people who will be hearing it, (b) prepare them (perhaps over the course of time) to understand the framework, background, and relevance of what you ultimately want them to adopt, (c) listen to them and seek to understand how they view the world and the way your idea will fit into it, (d) prepare your presentation taking into account a-c, (d) listen to criticisms and suggestions (e) be willing to adapt, and (f) don't take it personally. Many of the best ideas take weeks, months, or years for people's thinking to get to where they can be accepted.
5. If you have trouble working for a supervisor, you may also have trouble working with a customer. Both will make demands, at time seem unreasonable, and not always agree with you. And both pay you to listen to them. Be selective with both, and respectful of both.
6. Remember that life is about the people, and not always about being right or wrong. Learning to work with people is a life skill.
7. Make your work a pleasure. People like to work with happy people a whole lot more than working with unhappy people. Do the hard parts with intensity, but take time to enjoy some of what you do, and the people you do it with, every day. While each day will have its negatives, work to create positive moments or interactions whenever and wherever you can.
Having been at both the bottom and top of the ladder you're on, I can say that I have more good memories of the people I've worked with than of the work I've done. And that's because the work and its value changes over time. What was critical is no longer even useful. But I've tried to learn something from and to share something with every person that I've worked for or with or supervised.
- AlphaCo spent its money on marketing, sold millions of its bad products, and grew into a big company.
- BetaCo spent its money on engineering and restructuring, eventually producing better products at a higher profit margin, but few people even knew it existed.
Eventually Big AlphaCo bought little BetaCo and lived happily ever after.The moral is, big companies do things better, just not the things you're interested in.
Reduce, reuse, cycle
I'm a Network admin getting out of the Navy here in a few weeks and have pretty much the same thoughts... I will say though, that I haven't lost touch with any of my IT friends back home so I'm not to uninformed... as for a few of the comments I saw earlier about the training Air Force / Army techs received... well, I tell you, it's not any better in the Navy. I'm an electronics tech (ET) by training, not a computer tech (IT), and yet I still do IT work, and do it better than the ITs. Granted, I am a geek, and I was doing desktop level IT work before I joined, so I guess i cheated; but dealing with all these Navy ITs for the last 6 years has made me sad. 80% of them are flat out idiots, from E1 to E9. The next 10% are capable, but haven't been trained or trained right. The last 10% are the true geeks that would make it just about anywhere... and this last 10% usually gets out before they make E6 (sometime around end of 1st or 2nd tour) because they know they can make twice as much in the civilian world. ... *shrug* it makes me sad, but every one of the idiots that were in change where I came from, had plenty of warning as to what would happen when I left... 2 years of warning, 2 years of "we need to do this to keep that from happening" ... no one listened, and I'm sad to say, I was right... 2 weeks after I left, the poop hit the rotary propeller. *shrug* oh well. Loved the Navy, hated my command. If only stupidity was painful to the stupid person.
Sadly enough, the Navy IT system is clogged with the 80% (the type I'm surprised don't strangle themselves in the morning with their shoelaces), and mostly it's because of their IT training program.. they take people who've never touched a computer before, give them 6 weeks of training, and expect them to be MCSE/CCNA/whatever level quality (not paper cert quality, but actual techs) and it doesn't work for a variety of reasons... most of which I've typed up in a multi-page email and sent to my CO once I was on terminal leave (and DD214 in hand)
An example:"Telica" was a small company that made telephone switches, including one of the first reliable boxes that could connect the PSTN (with SS7) to VoIP networks with SIP and MGCP. They had a few patents, and a respectable marketing force. But they didn't have a huge established brand name, like Lucent, Nortel, or Siemens.
Lucent, Nortel, and Siemens are all large companies, and they've all made products that were supposed to compete with the Telica. But people who actually had to make VoIP networks work learned that their products weren't that good. And these companies have so many fish in the fryer that it's hard to get their attention to fix things -- like illegal SIP behavior. This is examples of large companies doing things worse.
These large companies have find some buyers for their gear -- by virtue of their large brand name. But responsible, hard-working, professional, skeptical engineers still continued to seek out the products that would actually work -- not just the products that were promised to work. So Telica continued to find success.
Yes, yes, Lucent bought Telica. In fact, the Telica technology has flourished somewhat, but Lucent has lost some of the key people who made Telica products and support great.
I have worked as a software engineer for two companies. The first had less than 20 employees. My current company has less than 60. In both cases the person evaluating me is/was a former software engineer. I have never felt like I'm in the Dilbert world. I suspect if I had worked for larger companies things would have been different.
I received my Associate's of Applied Science (Read: Toilet Paper) degree in CIS with a speciality in computer programming. Of course, the college I went to pushed the career services they offered, and boasted a 99% placement rate for everyone in the CIS department. After 2 years of rather dilligent job hunting, interviewing, etc., I found myself back where I started: Working in the automotive field. As much as I love my job right now, it's not where I want to spend the rest of my life.
I moved up the seniority ladder rather quickly and became the manager of a 2-bay Quick Lube. Today, I'm going to a management meeting to discuss the possibility of taking over the boss' postion as the Manager of Operations for the entire (soon-to-be) 3-shop chain.
This may seem like a stupid move, but let me tell you something: Of the jobs I have worked, the jobs I have applied for, and the jobs I've been denied, I have never been so comfortable and happy in my working life. My current employers recognize hard work, they give promotions based on merit, and they actually care about their employees' needs.
I'm actually in the process of deveopling some software that will aid the quick-lube industry immensely, which I hope to use as my "foot in the door" to either start my own respected software firm or to land a job with an already established, well respected firm.
E3/3: $1692.00 per month or (on 14/6 weeks) works out to about $4.60USD per hour for a job that could easily get you killed. Please find a former Marine and repeat your comment to them. He'll show you his k-bar. God, I'd love to see that.
You live in relative freedom because of the sacrifice of these people. Show some respect you piece of shit.
First off, I've been a contract programmer (yah, the dilbert sucker guy) for over 15 years, 10+ with the same large shipping company. I'm one of those guys that doesn't try to secure my job - I just do a kick ass job and that takes care of itself. The number of piss-poor coders coming out of college, much less India or wherever was astounding. IF you are talented - and most people that think they are, aren't nearly as much as they think - you can _usually_ shine. The reason I'm a contract coder is BECAUSE of what I delt with when I was a salaried employee. Overseen by someone that doesn't know squat about producing software. Silly ass raises based upon whatever the manager used to deem who was 'best'. Continuous waste of time meetings. Any of this ring a bell? Yep - it's Dilbert EVERYWHERE (not sure why you put 'America' on there - it's this way everywhere - I know, because I do a lot of overseas work too) A couple of years ago I made the dream break to at home work - best thing I ever did (and it was a forced decision due to the shipping company SOMEHOW decided it was a GREAT idea to make ALL consultants come in under one company. Gotta give the India-ns kudos on that one - they gave someone one hell of a blow job. They get to bring in low paid - questionably skilled H1B labor and just shuffle them in and out. Man they are making the cash off these guys. BTW, I never saw ONE of these guys that had this supposed 'great skill better than Amercian's' crap. They all mostly sucked. There were some good ones, but they weren't that good - we usually spent half our time cleaning up their messes once they got booted. Gee, yah, good idea - let's use a company that is 90% H1B. )
.02 - take it or leave it but save the flaming - you know I'm right.
Anyway, to answer your questions - yep, it's the same everywhere. Good luck. There is no such thing as job security - which is why I am a consultant - I assume I don't have it so it's no big deal. The way to success is to do the best job you can, 110% everytime. When the job finishes up, they'll probably come back. I get offers from that shipping company to come back every few months or so from various managers I worked with - cause they guys they got now don't know how to get the job done. And THAT is #1 - the number of people that just can't close the job is incredible. And make no mistake, a lot of these guys are GREAT coders - but that's the problem. The bought into the hype and don't want to finish up the mundane part of the code - the last 10-20% that it takes to make it WORK - they get bored or that grunt stuff is someone elses job - or worse they are an 8-5 employee that doesn't give a crap. My sucess has been because I get the freaking job done. My personality is abit abrasive (ok more than abit) but I've NEVER had anyone complain about my work and most people are happy that they KNOW I'll tell them like it is (More than once I've refused to make a code change that I KNEW was a bad idea - it takes balls, but the reputation payoff is huge if you survive it - of course, it's better to work where you're never IN this position to begin with - and you better have a manager that somewhat understands coding)
Just my
I also seperated from an IT job in the USAF, a long time ago. Now, I wish I had stayed in, mostly for economic reasons.
USA healthcare is a horror story even if you have insurance. If you find yourself unemployed, and not healthy, you are just plain screwed.
And there is absolutely no security in IT. IT staff are the whipping boys, who get laid off for no good reason. Retirement plans in the civilian sector don't even begin to compare to military.
You had better hope you earn a *lot* more in the civilian sector - your're going to need it.
They both stopped being funny about 6 years ago.
My personel spin:
Gov-BS-Lots of BS. On the other hand-
Many areas have much, better benifits than the comerce area.(ie they have them at all)
Less likely for them to exchange your job for someone in a country where Five Letter Word could meen saying hello, people are histaricly happy just to have watter, and possible asking for a Camel can be constude as a smoke, food, or transporation (especially when "cold" meens less than 42c)
Foundations are basicly where it's at for a generally happy medium between gov and comerce some pay decently, others don't. Many have decent benifits-such as comunity foundations. middle of the road interms of BS of the variety you seem to be woried about. Getting Off Shored is a risk not as great as working for BofA but a risk. But either you meet the goals needed, or you don't.
Commerce area: BS, but a different kind than the Gov area. Here it's not about honor or any of that it's about getting a pay check. You are expendable. You are their because someone thinks you'll take a pay check at or bellow what their time is "worth". They have some bizare notions, "time worthness", "productivity gains", and my favourite "econmic forcastability"-nothing but the net for pure BS. It's gotten prity agregous. Just to get to the interview in retail- some places have you take a 33 page double sided at 20 questions per a page Psych work up. I actually got hired for a short term stint cause I wrote on the first page: I'm not a ######ing psycho-yet-but taking a 100 question survey saying I am WILL make me nutz-hire me or not-dyam!.
Benifits in this area are wim to the brainfart of the head monky. Unlike the foundations or Government their not compelled to offer better benifits for lower pay.Also don't get stuck in just IT-It's fairly saturated-unless you get good at working freelance getting paid under the table. A handful of people I know are doing that-definatly shady-however, pay can be fairly good, sometimes benifits are to (i.e. you can leave work at work).
"Real life Dilbert" certainly exists, but remember that Dilbert is an exaggerated comic strip. You'll see EVERYTHING in the civilian workplace, but certainly not in the concentration that appears in a cartoon. I work for a "failing" Fortune 10 (or so) company; if we conducted ourselves like Dilbert every day and in every aspect of our business, we'd already be non-existant.
--Jim (me)
I've worked at places ranging from my current Fortune 50 employer, to a Baby Bell, to companies of six and twelve people, including me, total. What I've seen, more and more over the last ten years or so is, esp. in large companies, the growth of PHB's.
Their latest ploy is to slow any work to a crawl by requiring an unbelievable amount of paperwork, with half a dozen signatures (including director level) for every. single. change. no matter how small. They *claim* this is SOx (Sarbanes-Oxley) compliance; in reality, it's upper management paralysis, along with CYA and the ability, should they ever be questioned, to literally drown any questioner in documents.
As a side note, a story here on slashdot a few years ago noted that ISO 9000 didn't guarantee quality, only that you could document the worst day you ever had. That's what this alleged SOx compliance is.. or to hide anything under it.
You *might* want to go for a smaller company, or a new division of a larger one. They might be more, um, agile, and concerned with results rather than CYA paperwork.
*IF* you can find one. The other option is, if you were in military IT, I'd guess you have a clearance, and there's a *lot* of (unnecessary) requirements for that, which may give you a leg up on the rest of us.
mark
Personally I don't think anyone can be more useful to the US public than to be enlisted. You might be more useful to the US economy, or yourself, but not the US public. Being disorganized is determined by the people you work with. It's unfair to say that the civilian or military sector is better or worse than the other as far mismanagement goes. Yes the military can be a lot of "hurry up and wait," but the civilian sector can be equally bad... "Hurry up, then lay off."
When I signed up I just wanted to put something professional on my resume so I could get a half ass good IT job. After attending the college I did, I came to the conclusion that no matter how much I learned, and got certified in nobody would hire a punk kid over a seasoned candidate who could play the game. Even having a significantly less request for salary would not boost my chances.
Work your way up the food chains, and pay your dues like the rest of us! Why? Because misery loves company? No thanks, sand bag PT is a far better use of ones time than answering any damn help desk phone.
I want to be retired when I grow up.
However, after working as a clerk for a non-profit at the University of Iowa, Widernet, it seems to me that there are at least a few opportunities for tech positions that put mission over politics. Widernet hired programmers as their main workforce...the pay wasn't great, the work schedule was very flexible, and the environment was great...particularly since it was a fairly regular part of the job to meet with students and teachers from Africa who were making use of the project.
It seems to me that non-profits would be in need of skilled and experienced IT profs (being an Air Force vet would definitely, IMO, qualify you in both those areas). The drawback would be that you would be making a fraction of your corporate potential. The advantages would include less politics, a sense of worth about what you are accomplishing, and potentially a better-grade of co-worker.
Websites to check out:
Charity.org
Idealist.org
Non Profit Jobs
There are numerous other sites, just check Google. Additionally, if you get in contact with your local United Way (or similar group) that dispense funds to non-profits, they should be able to give a detailed list of local non-profits.
I spent 6 yrs in the AF, got out 15 years ago, and even back then in most places the tech was obsolete. I was very lucky and was stationed in two different shops that were actaully dev shops and learned a lot about software development. Pure luck, and rare at that from what I understand. I then spent 8 or 9 years doing gov contracting for agencies around D.C. Since 2000 I've been doing commercial development in Austin, TX.
This experience has taught me alot about big organizations and small companies. Some of the gov. contracting companies I worked for were 5000. I've worked in startups and largish SW deve companies. Through all of this I have noticed a couple of things.
1. Dilbert and the PHB's do indeed continue to live and prosper.
2. Bureaucracy sneaks in insidiously via "Professional HR" people and MBA's once a company grows somewhere between 200 to 500. Mostly because "thats how other companies do it, so we should to." & because they use arbitrary rules to show that they have power.
3. A publically owned company is legally mandated to be loyal to its stock holders profits and NOTHING ELSE. This means NOT TO YOU. but they do expect you to be loyal to them without understanding that loyalty is a two way street.
What does this mean? Well, I have interpreted it to mean that the very best (and very worst too *sigh*) companies to work for are privately owned companies of between 50 to 150 employees that are not actively working to be bought out / go public.
Just my 2 cents.
-- More Smoke! The mirrors aren't working!!!
I must be having one hell of a rare experience then. I started at Cypress Communications (A nationwide telecom company) about 6 months ago (January) as a monitoring center technician. I didn't have a college degree, or any other certifications. My job was to monitor/troubleshoot circuits (ds1,3,etc.) I was promoted to a senior support engineer and given signifigant merit and position based pay raises within 3 months. I hate to toot my own horn but I kicked arse and got promoted for it. Is this not the way most companies work? Did I just get lucky?
"Are there any 'honest' places to work any more (where promotions/awards are based on work preformed and bureaucracy, and politics aren't encouraged to supplant the 'mission)...?"
Sure there are - just not in civilian government, the military, or in contracting firms that support government projects. There are a lot of big old bureaucratic corporations in the private sector, but they're generally easy to spot, and unlike the military, you can generally quit those jobs on a moments notice with few repercussions.
but by and large it seemed like most of these applicants got very little broad-coverage training in the real IT world, but instead were all pidgeon-holed into little isolated sub-sections of IT training and knowledge without being able to be immediately competant at the "big picture"
Most of the job listings I have encountered seem to call for specialists. They read like this. The listing is obviously the resume of the guy who just left. So tell us, is this sort of listing a bluff? Do all managers really want broad-coverage people and figure asking for the opposite is the best way to get them? Or are you the only one who wants broad-coverage staff?
I worked for a large semiconductor's IT department in `98-`03. I thought that since I was getting paid below average, worked hard and had several large responsibilities, I was safe and secure. Like many companies, cut-backs and layoffs hit IT. After 6 layoffs, I was finally let go in the 7th. Shortly after I found that much of their IT was moved off-shore.
I moved to contracting for the larger paycheck and dabbled with full-time positions. With the contracts, I was often hired to cover a long term employee who was "let go" due to their larger salary. Even though I was being paid more then the older employee, my pay came from a project budget. With the "perm" positions, I was often hired at a lower pay after they let a long term employee walk due to their high salary.
I don't believe that job security really exists anymore. Everything is a numbers game. We, in the IT job market, are finding ourselves in a congested job market. It is too easy for a company to replace us, no matter how "valuable" we feel/know we are to the company since skilled replacements are "nipping at our heals" around every turn. Think of it as placing your hand in a bucket of water and then pulling it out quickly; the it takes time for the water to level off from where your hand was, but you soon find that there are no traces of your hand ever being there.
I did finally settle into a full time position with a company that seems to fit the times better. With a few exceptions, everyone is in a lateral position. They don't promote with titles; just raises. Your "value" is based on your knowledge, performance, skill and willingness to share. "Cowboys" are shunned and team players are valued. I still don't believe that job security exists in this day-and-age, but if I work hard, do what is asked of me, accept new tasks that can promote my knowledge, follow through on what I say I will do and try and not cause too much grief, I should be alright. I have a good team, we have fun during the day and my bosses can rely on me. This is about the most secure you can hope for these days.
David
You are less likely to find a PHB in a small company than in a large one. It takes a fair budget to support a non-productive project and the small company would be out of business pretty quickly if it allowed such a project to eat up its (usually) limited resources.
First off, good luck on the transition. I performed the same transition at the end of 2001. I left the Marines after 9 years of service and began looking for jobs in the civlian market. Since that time I have found that politics plays an important role in every business. no business is based solely on merit alone, at least none I have ever worked for. initially it was tough securing a position to which my skills applied, you learn so much through experience alone in the military, and the formal education you have simply doesn't cover it all. The best advice I can give is to quickly grab a bacchelors degree from a university and go with it. Schools like http://wgu.edu/ should help you a lot since they are comeptency based and not class attendance based. Once you've gotten that degree many more doors will simply open you will be amazed. I have found the civilian market doesnt value military education as highly as it values its civilian counterpart. It is up to you to translate how those things do apply to the career your looking for and to integrate them into your resume so they are easily seen and that they get the attention they deserve. This was probably the single hardest thing for me, was making it all translate to something the average HR person would understand when they gave my resume that 15 seconds before moving to the next. Once I got the hang of that I havent been out of work since and have secured some very good positions. Look for jobs in the Middle East, currently the job market in Iraq is booming with contractors, and they value good IT experience. Some of the highest paid positions are over here. Use your experience to grab a few certifications, if your a router / switch guy, start with the CCNa and move to the CCNP, if your a sys admin guy, grab the MCSE or the certs for linux. these have also been good in getting my resume a second look. I have found that once i got the degree and grabbed the certs, I more times than not, have at least been in the final running for the positions I have sought out.
OK, first of all, this is going to come off as a rant and it's going to piss off a lot of people. Sorry.
I always get a chuckle out of the guys who complain that the military is full of idiots who don't know a damn thing about anything. I did my time, advanced from E-1 to E-6 in about 5 years and noticed that the guys who did the most whinging about how screwed up the military was were the guys who did the least amount of work. They were the guys who didn't "work and play well with others". They were the ones that I had to drag out of their rack at 7:50 so that they could be on the job at 8:00, then listen to the bitching and moaning because they couldn't knock off at 3:00. They were the ones who couldn't even do a half-assed job of something simple, but wanted to take on all the complex stuff. They were the ones who lost half our tools, then complained that what we had was just cheap shit and they had better stuff at home. They were the ones who made me field calls from the local loan sharks because they borrowed a few thousand bucks to buy a $500 car and weren't paying the bills. They were the guys who gave me five times as much work to do because they couldn't be trusted to do a simple job right the first time.
And they were the ones who expected the big bucks from a civilian job.
Well, guess what? The only real difference between work in a military job and work in a civilian job is that, generally, you don't get shot at. The military makes it pretty damn easy, though, because it tells you to do the work, not asks you to do the work. If you can't hack that, you're going to be screwed when you hit a civilian job because not only will you have to get the work done, you'll have to do it without having somebody there to backstop you when you don't have the responsibility or discipline to do it all on your own.
Yeah, I know the type. I saw 'em in the Navy and I see 'em in the "real world". Think what you want, but I wasn't one of the asshole "my way or the highway" LPOs. All I wanted were results. At the end of the week, I wanted to see a week's worth of work checked off of the schedule. Almost all of the guys came through, week in and week out. But the ones who didn't were the biggest whingers about how screwed up the system was.
Me, I got out of the Navy after 10 years, got my EE degree and a damned good job - and the work skills that I learned in the Navy are the reason. The travel was kind of nice, too.
I can't speak for the Air Force, Army, Marines or Coast Guard, but that's how things were when I was in the Navy.
-h-
Is corporate employment like Dilbert? Probably about the same amount as your job is like Beetle Bailey. In other words, maybe a little bit, and sometimes too much like it.
Your question shows an understandable hesitation about going into an unknown world. The main thing you need to realize is that your first move into that world will a) educate you about that world, b) set you up for your next move. Choosing an employer is not the same as choosing a branch of the military. You will no doubt be working somewhere else within 5 years (possibly much less), and when you make that move you will have all the answers you need.
To the question "should I leave?"---sounds like you have the answer. To the question---"where should I go?" I'd say "make the best decision you can but recognize it is a tactical decision, not a strategic one."
I went through the same transition in moving from academia to the corporate IT world and I would never go back. Your options are far more open, and far more diverse, than in the military---though at the same time, the burden of discovering and defining those options is far more on your shoulders.
Good luck
Premature optimization is the root of all evil
"by and large it seemed like most of these applicants got very little broad-coverage training in the real IT world"
Like how? Do military computers run on different electricity that the rest and do they breakdown differently also?
`in the interview questions about where they saw themselves in 3 to five years of working for us was "to become the senior manager/director of the whole IT department"'
No-one in their right mind would ever say such thing at an interview. Especially after coming from such a hierarchy like environment like the US military.
"One particular worst offender would take a master copy of the full corporate MS Office Professional edition and install it on every desktop he touched regardless of whether the customer had purchased the full version for that machine or not"
Since when would an ex military go about doing what he pleases. Did you pause here merely to inject a little 'your IT staff cannot be trusted' fud for the PHBs who might me reading this.
'the sooner he could get the boss in trouble or fired, the better chance he thought he'd have to move up, take over and "rule with an iron fist".`
Without any corroborating evidence to back up these anecdotal tales I suspect your whole story is a work of fiction.
I'm ex-USAF and work with alot of ex/Retired Military in Dallas, TX. They all have their warstories to top all others' warstories.
You will get along fine with everybody if you just SHUT UP! and display your experience and knowledge
The only thing new in this world is the history that you don't know.[Harry Truman]
For certain reasons, I've come to the conclusion that I will be more effective in serving the US public out of uniform than in it.
Huh? You think that you're "serving the public" in a private sector job? Why exactly?
Repeat after me: "There is NO JOB SECURITY" Everything should be considered a "temp" job or project due to mergers/acquisitions and general imcompetance in business. Avoid public companies like the plague!
Iv'e been working in the computing industry since 1978. Early in my career I was very disillusioned at one particular job/company and my mentor took me downstairs to the cafeteria (yea, we had those, with real food and coffee and everything ...) for a cup of coffee. He told me what has become a career long observation; "There are two kinds of companies in the world, one is screwed up and losing money, the other is screwed up and making money. What is important, is to find work that you personally enjoy, that you enjoy your fellow workers and that you get paid enough to pay your bills." I always ask myself those questions about the job I'm in and where I might be going. On another occasion, I was subcontracting at NASA and was fed up with the particular smell of the excrement there, my boss then said, "You'll have to put up with shit at any private sector job". My response, was "Yes, but at least it will be a different color!".
So good luck.
Working as a contractor at a cabinet level agency for the past 7 years, I can say pretty much politics continue to trump the mission, the incompetent continue to get promoted at an alarming rate, the quality of an idea is never based on its technical merit, but rather on the position of the person who had it....So, pretty much, yeah, America is becoming one big Dilbert strip.
Gotta love Scott Adams - he's found a way to turn the failures of others into a wildly successful career.
Posting AC because I have done this too :)
Having worked as a software developer in the private sector for 25+ years in Europe and the US there's one fact that always holds true no matter which US company you work for...
There's always some dumbass manager who's already committed you to develop something in an impossible time scale then wastes a few more days before telling you.
They always expect you to develop quickly at the cost of quality but its always your fault if it doesn't work properly at delivery.
Its very frustrating if you're a good engineer who cares about the quality of his work. You're never allowed to do a proper job.
I'm guessing its not the same in the forces, but I don't know because I've never been in them.
Most IT organizations are focused on their own existence and power. They have almost no connection (ie: understanding) of the needs of the corporation and how they can strategically and positively impact the bottom line. Sadly, no one in any other part of the organization has any more vision about how IT can help. Its just a necessary evil...."You have a bathroom, you must have toliet paper. You have a big corporation, you must have IT."
Just become an independent contractor and deliver a fair days work for a fair days pay and recognize that you will occaisionally be screwed in the "persecution of the innocent phase" of various projects.
Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of congress. But then I repeat myself. -- Mark Twain
Hey man I know your pain....I left the military in 2003 after serving as a cryptologist. One thing id like to say though it the military I was used to was much much more organized than the corporate world. I have spent hours trying to figure out the method of madness in the corporate world. They ask you a question you give them the straight answer and they get upset because it isnt what they wanted to hear! I miss the days of active duty where I knew what to expect and everything was black and white and no GM asked me to lie for him or his guys.....There is no work as honest as the DOD. I also worked as a DOD contractor for quite sometime and life was simple.....you knew what was expected and how to accomplish the goals set forth. I always knew exactly what the goal was and didnt ask questions...just performed! My boss recently told me he thought it was his job to help me decompress from the military.....I say BS its my job to show by example what ethics are and hot to achieve a goal by working and not BS'ing your way through it.
Ok in the Air Force, and I am sure many branches of the military-you are an IT Tech last. It might be your job but you have endless amounts of B.S. to put up with. Second the AF has some big downfalls in the IT for a few reasons.
1. They don't always put the people who want to be techies in the job. Many times they put clueless people in and hope the can learn. Problem is those same people eventualy get promoted and make the bad choices.
2. Money. When the AF gets it's budget it is usually spent right away.
3. Systems. The AF alone has aystem that use soooo many OS's that you can't count them on 20/21 didgts.
4. Leadership. Offices do not stay in one place. They get moved around to get the better view of the AF but bounce around from job to job about every 6-8 in their first 4 years.
5. Regulations. There are sp many new rules that come down for implimenting new systems. After the whole shop takes 1 year to learn a complicated system-the AF buys a differet one and makes the network centers install and use them before they get any training.
It is very difficult to work with all of this. Top that with the fact that 2-4 of the average day is just messed up with non work related stuff, and you might see how getting good training is soo hard.
So you have a military that accomplishes nothing while torturing and murdering people. Would you hire people that were a part of that? Why not just go down to the prison and hire some people. Get a few serial killers maybe -- no one can "get er done" like a serial killer. They're just about the most organized people you can hope to find in this world.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reserve. Definition #6.
I oppose the US invasion of Iraq as much as anyone; but the whole "you can't send the reserves!" issue is silly. They are a part of the military, and this is exactly their purpose -- to augment the standing military when it gets stretched too thinly.
Some industries are already facing up to this reality, which is why there is more talk about "employee retention strategies" these days. I have a friend who does human resources at a hospital, and they basically never fire ANYONE, unless they are unusually and pathologically bad at their job. It's nearly always cheaper in the long run to invest in a bad employee and bring them up to an acceptable level of performance. Health-care is an extreme case, of course, due to the chronic labour shortage in that field, but the principles do apply elsewhere.
To summarize, although I agree that no one has a right to retain their job (nor should they -- that's why we have unemployment insurance, job placement services, retraining programs, etcetera, and, in a pinch, welfare), many businesses are quite self-destructive in their tendency to fire anyone for any reason, ignoring the costs and inefficiency that this will incurr.
I don't know about other regions, but here in British Columbia, the first $5000 that one earns every year doesn't count towards your income for tax purposes. And that's regardless of how much money you make. So if you earn $50,000 at your job, and do $3000 worth of contracting, that $3000 doesn't even show up, it doesn't raise your tax bracket, it just doesn't exist to the government. Cool, huh? Admittedly, it might make more sense for it to be higher (say $10,000 or even $20,000) if it is to encourage the growth of the contract-labour market, but there it is.
Well said. Democracy dies a little every time that someone says "it's a two party system". It's basically a complete resignation, and an acknowledgement that democracy was a failed experiment.
The monkesphere... too depressing... must drink six cups of coffee to compensate...
True, but this is not news. Corporate America has been like this since before Scott Adams was even a gleam in his father's eye, and will probably continue to be so indefinitely. Adams' invaluable contribution is that he shows us how to laugh at it instead of weeping.
What! You are only 14 years away from a government pension!
If you don't want to stay military, consider a government job and work yourself toward retirement.
No corporate jobs have pension or retirement any more, and the US government benefits have got to be better than most big corporations.
This is a good time to look at the long view.
there are 3 kinds of people:
* those who can count
* those who can't
A guardian/parent has accepted the obligation to raise and support their dependents.
Implicitly, anyway; I have damn near no sympathy for those who become sexually active without taking contraceptive precautions, and end up parents by mistake. I'd also add that although expectation of some level of social support for the process is reasonable, the ultimate responsibility for the result is the parents'. However, any social framework or institution that does not facilitate or precludes such rearing faces long-term evolutionary pressure against it. Can you say "revolution", children? (No, dumbasses, "say" does not mean "sing"....)
A Marine PFC has accepted the obligation to go risk their life wherever ordered, accepting the pay the DoD has deemed sufficient.
Essentially accurate (although I believe Congress actually determines pay grades, that detail is moot to this discussion). However, a shift in accounting rules resulting in a massive shift of what their effective usable income is inequitable, especially when the PFC is stuck in a two, four, or six year enlistment. Furthermore in a longer term perspective, by diminishing the value of effective monetary remuneration, especially without increasing perceived non-rational value on service (EG: "patriotism"), diminishing the price will diminish the supply of recruits... and possibly the quality as well. That is to say: if you don't pay, they won't show up.
I realize the military is working on this, but are those obligations really compatible at the same time?
Take a longer term perspective. My understanding is parents with a history of military service tend to produce kids more likely to enter military service. It's to the military's long-term benefit to insure conditions are supportive of raising kids, to the extent that it is possible to do so without compromising military operations.
In the private sector we (IMHO rightly) have little sympathy for anyone who just entered the job market and wants to have children before having developed any distinctive skills and advanced beyond the minimum wage.
I'll grant that anyone planning to have kids should consider the economic realities of their situation before jumping in and doing so. Having children is a luxury for a couple, one that may require forgoing others, like the latest-and-greatest electronic entertainments.
On the other hand, having children is a necessity for viable society (leaving aside a few moot cases). My depression-baby parents didn't marry and start having kids until they were both about thirty, but were regarded as strange in their day; despite both my parents being the oldest in their rather large families, I only have two cousins younger than me. Corporations are legally obligated not to have a sense of social responsibility; however, I fear that it is detrimental to society that child-rearing be so routinely postponed so long.
I suspect your politics align well with the Cheap Labor Conservatives, and that's not a good thing in my book. Of course, I'm a green-to-liberarian peak-oil kook with a nasty pragmatic streak... what would I know?
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
no
thanks for playing.
Become a consultant. Work for someone else for a while to get a feel for the business and start your own thing in a few years. Whatever you have to do. If you simply cannot stand the dilbert lifestyle then there is no long term job for you in the industry.
I work in silicon valley. I do consulting work or I do full time at a start-up. When the startup gets big and starts acting weird I bail and go to another startup. This happens every 18-24 months. It makes for screwy taxes, but otherwise it is worth it. Being a consultant is nice, but unless you want to give half your money to a firm you have to hit the phones and find customers/clients yourself.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
has America become one big living Dilbert strip?
No, Dilbert is funny. There's nothing funny about corporate America.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
I also did 6 years in the military. Sure, some of what they say is true -- there's office politics and the like, which is just part of the human condition -- but it's nothing like the military. You don't have to worry about irrelevant details like making sure your shoes don't have any scuffs on them, which allows you to focus more on the real work. Sure, in a professional atmosphere you should probably look professional, but it's not like the mindless obsession that is the military.
More importantly, if you happen to land a job with a terrible boss, you have a lot more leverage in the private sector than in the military. Namely -- you can leave. Many of the people I work with are all former military as well, so we all have stories to tell and laugh about, and I've never met one person who regretted leaving, if that says anything.
The "career counselors" in the military are no different than recruiters or any other salesmen. They'll try to point out the virtues of military service and the negatives of civilian life, under the guise of presenting an "objective" view. Strangely, you'll never hear them extoll the virtues of civilian life, or point out the negatives of military life. Of course, there ARE two sides of the coin, and each has its flaws.. but don't buy in to the biggest argument the military tries to make, which is that "it's no different on the outside, except you can get laid off." Sure, you can get fired or laid off, but militaries downsize too (the Navy just implemented downsizing in 2004). More importantly, think of how many people do just fine in the civilian sector. If they can do it, why not you? If you don't find the military environment rewarding, then don't be afraid to get out. Fear is often be an excuse for doing nothing, so don't let it deter you. Don't get me wrong, this may be the most difficult decision you'll ever have to make -- it was for me, and it was for some of my associates -- especially when you're surrounded by people who don't want you to leave. Just remember, their bottom line is retention and making themselves look good, but it's your life.
Some people, especially those who've been in the service for a long time, are institutionalized and simply incapable of performing in an environment without strict rules and regulations guiding their every move, and six years is definately enough time to become institutionalized. Some people simply don't have the education, qualifications, or resources to pursue a good job, and the military is the best choice for them, for the money. However, the biggest handicap to military service, in my experience is that you are limited in how much you can succeed. Your options are pretty much limited to being a grunt, or being in charge of grunts. If you find that satisfying, then by all means, stay in.
Rest assured, you shouldn't have a problem finding a job in IT when you get out. I have several collegues and associates who performed work which barely qualified as IT, but IT was their hobby, and they now work as (very capable) sysadmins. As someone above posted, contractor jobs are great, because they like people who've had military experience. Actually the experience looks good on a resume for just about anywhere, and it sets you apart from the competitors.
Of course, I'm biased because I got out, and I don't know the particulars of your situation so take what I say with a grain of salt. Anyway, I hope my experience helps and good luck, whatever your choice.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
Of course there are good places to work. If your looking for tech support in CT or windows help CT there are places to go, but for employment, work someplace, anyplace, even the geek squad, and build a clientele list. I worked in a retail position while starting my own business, then trimmed down my days there as my business increased. Then once you feel you can make the leap, go out on your own. It takes a big leap of faith to drop your steady employment and start your own business, but the rewards of dropping out of the rat race are worth it.
I recently left a very large multinational electronics company. I can pretty much guarantee that my next employer will be a small company for the very concerns voiced in the article.
A large company (unfortunately) cannot help but embody Dilbert principles. Even though your immediate manager, or even several levels of managment may be more than competent, there are simply too many levels of management, with responsibilities impacting your job, spread out over too many individuals. As an example, as a software engineering manager, it was impossible for me to implement the 'Pair Programming' practice from Extreme Programming because employee cubicle sizes/layout were dictated by the highest levels of management within the product division. This decision was made by made by a management team located in Europe (I was based in San Jose, California). This management team is sufficiently removed from me as to be completely unreachable. This structure made it impossible for me to organize the physical office layout in a manner that would facilitate pair programming.
A large company in many ways cannot treat employees as individuals. The larger the company, the more the employee must conform to the process of the organization, and the more organizational process replaces individual initiative.
By contrast, a smaller company succeeds or fails on the basis of every member of company. When choosing to join a smaller company, it is possible to actually interview with, if not everyone in the company, at least all of the key management (including the CEO), and many of the key contributors. In a smaller company, your own efforts are more visible, with a greater impact on the company, and stand a better chance of being truly recognized.
Some people tend to work well as a cog in a large machine, but that's not me. I wish those people well, but I would much rather work my *ss off at a smaller company, even if it's for a smaller monetary reward, and have the opportunity to make a real, recognizable contribution.
Since 2000 I have been in the Air Force in a job i hate working with people i cant stand. You sshould be happy that your job is useful on the outside. I work "ammo" building bombs wich has no practical use to anyone on the civilian side of the world.
Not on the same scale it ain't! Your Libertarian friends will eagerly spout this pablum about how much more efficient business is than government at doing the same thing, but it's a big load of mis-framed crap. Even Microsoft and IBM aren't as large as the United States government, nor do they serve "markets" more than a mere fraction of what it serves (i.e., the ENTIRE U.S. population). Businesses, even at such a vastly smaller scale, create enormous amounts of waste and inefficiency, and if you scale them and their wastefulness up to the scale of governments you find that the efficiency track record of the corporate world ain't so rosy after all.
Really the deception in this favorite Libertarian refrain should be obvious to anyone who's taken a systems analysis class: one of the things you learn is that as any network of people grows larger - be it a corporation or a government - the number of internal communication channels grows exponentially (or is it geometrically?). It should come as no surprise, then, that inefficiency and waste grows at just about roughly the same rate. In order to compare the efficiency of two human networks, you have to compare them at the same scale.
Sneaky Libertarians!
Just look who is the president. Or go to youtube and search "talking to americans". You will be amazed.
I have worked with a number of people who served for a long time in the irish army in IT roles - I found them to be some of the best techies I have ever worked with - they knew their stuff - worked harder than anyone else and knew that whingeing wouldn't get them anywhere - they would be top of my list in any hiring situation. Then again the irish army is probably too small and underfunded to be able to afford a large mindless buearocracy (they don't go round invading places either :-)
There seems to be a common belief that the civilian sector is just as disorganized and mismanaged as the uniformed services. Do you think this is true?
:(
Yes.
Are there any 'honest' places to work any more (where promotions/awards are based on work preformed and bureaucracy, and politics aren't encouraged to supplant the 'mission)
No.
or has America become one big living Dilbert strip?
Yes.
If I knew what to do about it, I'd offer it here.
bona fides: 28 years + in USAF IT (counting 10 years active, 18 years reserve time), now retired reserves. enlisted 18 years, officer 10 years. Working in defense industry, and happy to be here .... sir ;-) I worked in commercial industry for about 12 years in three major commercial companies including intel, sybase, & digital equipment.
;-)
The government IT sector has its problems. You will not escape them from leaving it though. Among them (and similar to your cite);
- sloth
- personal agrandizement, megalomaniacal behavior, and grandstanding as reqts for promotion
- peter principle (folks get promoted beyond their level of incompetence)
- poor career track (in uniform or out)
- poor financial and other incentives (especially for non-degreed folks)
- often lousy work environment
- inability/failure to make decent value propositions for much that is done (and spent)
- inability to plan financially (because of the congressional process)
- inability to do the right thing because it often is prohibited by policy, regulation or law
On the commercial side in my experience you have a somewhat overlapping, but not easy set of problems;
- short term focus (quarterly, yearly financials)
- lack of customer focus
- the same personal agrandizement, megalomaniaical and grandstanding as reqts for promotion
- less of the peter principle but still an issue
- little or no training, education
- productivity is an excuse for any ill conceived act
- inability to financially plan due to poor management
- inability or unwillingness to do the right thing for any reason
Hey you wanted advice, don't make a career choice based on the grass being perceived greener on the other side. Recognize that you are just trading one set of problems for another. In broad general terms they are not better or worse, just different. Despite all that has been said, you probably have a lot of training, and experience to be thankful for. I wish ya luck in marketing yourself, thats what it is all about. You kind of indicate you like serving.... you might wanna think about staying in some aspect of public service including within the defense industry.
Let's face it. The government is figuring out that it does not want "IT" folks in uniform. They want thinking, breathing, professional combatants and bureaucrats. We can all think there is a problem in that equation, but unfortunately the system does not react well to being told it is broken. The USAF will likely stay focused on flying despite the increasing reliance on "IT" (although IT in this context is a broad stretch). This means that the USAF (and the other services) will ALWAYS have problems retaining good "IT" folks, and they never will have a comparable career track to pilots.
Another aspect of this is that to compete with pilots, "communicators" in the USAF will often utterly fail to keep the value proposition foremost in their minds; "The technology is here to help us fly and fight" (not the inverse). Hence, in the eyes of the pilots who lead the USAF, the "communicators" just don't get it, and never will.
Your mileage may vary.
mdw
I currently work for the largest Gov. Contractor in America... lets just say I put in notice based on my current salary.
I was given tasks outside my job description b/c I had the skills, but without compensation for those skills because they were outside my job description. This circular logic is ever present at my work and I just couldn't tolerate the low wages, lack of appreciation, and sheer neglegance and waste when dealing with tax payers dollars.
There's a reason why Dilbert is funny, and it's not because it is some sort of fantasy world dreamed up by Scott Adams. Dilbert is funny because it pretty accurately represents today's corporate America. So the answer to your question is, unfortunately, "No".
Proverbs 21:19
I just love it when person A asks a question "Is it this, or is it that?" and person B answers "no" or "yes". I mean, is it really that hard to keep reading after the ", or" and then give an answer that makes sense?
Nothing to see here. Move along.
IBM® good, Intel® bad.
In times of universal deceit, telling the truth gets you modded -1 Troll
Small businesses are where it's at. A lot more likely that you'll be rewarded (and noticed) for good work, especially if you're not under the realm of a union, and work in a Right-To-Work state.
After all, they have a more difficult time offering you what you can find at a large corporation, so they'll try harder to keep you.
Here's a pic from Halloween 1999, where I worked at the time.s s.jpg
The man dressed as Dilbert really was my boss, and the other man was a boss about two levels up from Dilbert:
http://frontiernet.net/~benbradley/dilbert_and_bo
Tag lost or not installed.
Instant Runoff Voting or Ranked Choice Voting are the most usual US names for this - which is definitely the best long term solution, and which is being used in some local elections already.
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