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There may not be an official way, but if your possible systems are all from a limited set and you're really only having to differentiate between Windows and UEFI or DOS and Windows (the other poster pointed out that there's an official way of having both DOS and Windows entry points),

That was me

then it should be possible to find a system call that just provides information on both systems and has a return value that lets you tell them apart. You do this early and then jump to the relevant entry point.

The problem is that even though Windows and UEFI both use PE files, there are significant differences.

Windows applications use subsystem=2 for GUI and 3 for console

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-...

UEFI applications uses subsystem=10

http://wiki.osdev.org/UEFI#Bin...

Also windows executables are .exe and UEFI applications are .efi

I.e. it's hard to build a single executable that would pass the subsystem and file extension checks to run on both Windows and UEFI. Which of course is by design - otherwise people would run executables on the wrong platform and brick it.

Here it seems like Dell just distribute a bunch of different executables. One for Windows/FreeDOS(.exe), one for Linux(.bin) and one for UEFI (.efi)

http://www.dell.com/support/ho...

You could have them share a data file if space is at a premium.

Though a Win32/UEFI polyglot may be possible I can't find one. And I'm not sure how it would work.

The one possibility would be if Terse Executable files can begin at something other than offset zero in a file. TE files are a sort of stripped down PE file with all the unnecessary crap removed from the PE headers.

http://wiki.phoenix.com/wiki/i...

But it seems unlikely UEFI executable loader code is willing to skip bytes endlessly until it sees a VZ signature.

Said Kalriath to a person who actually had a displeasure working on BIOS sources.

Which is completely irrelevant. I work on Patient Administration Systems for a living, but be damned if I can perform heart surgery.

What "chip"? Initially there is no CPU-visible ROM other than BIOS flash, attached to LPC (pseudo-ISA) bus/Intel FWH interface or some equivalent. Before the code in it runs, CPU can't even access RAM. Hell, it can't even run properly because it didn't get Intel microcode updates buried inside the BIOS image.

Quit being disingenuous. You and I both know the BIOS or UEFI is implemented as firmware running on an EEPROM chip located on the mainboard.

And what, do you think, does hardware initialization on boot, using the code that was piled up over 25 years? What implements idiotic standards such as ACPI? What installs non-removable SMI handlers to mess with your ECC RAM and break your realtime OS?

The UEFI drivers, of course.

BIOS, that's what! UEFI implementation is a microscopic addition to a festering pile of shit that is PC BIOS. Go, look how they are proud of themselves: http://www.phoenix.com/docs/BridgingBIOStoUEFI_July2007.pdf They taken their BIOS and "made it compatible" by bolting Intel code on top of it. That's the only implementation you will find on anything except, maybe, Apple.

You didn't even read the document you linked. It goes on about how older operating systems and hardware still require a BIOS, and how we can't migrate from BIOS to UEFI until these old systems are finally gone. It then goes on to talk about how Phoenix built a UEFI-BIOS hybrid chip that contains both a UEFI firmware image and a BIOS firmware image so that hardware and software that don't support UEFI will still actually work. Which is most important for old OSes like Windows XP, or any 32-bit Windows which don't actually work with UEFI.

No, that is incorrect.

Said Kalriath to a person who actually had a displeasure working on BIOS sources.

The BIOS is the old firmware interface burned into the ROM, not the chip itself

What "chip"? Initially there is no CPU-visible ROM other than BIOS flash, attached to LPC (pseudo-ISA) bus/Intel FWH interface or some equivalent. Before the code in it runs, CPU can't even access RAM. Hell, it can't even run properly because it didn't get Intel microcode updates buried inside the BIOS image.

The UEFI is also a firmware interface burned into the ROM, not the chip itself. UEFI software can pretend to be BIOS software, but it is not BIOS software.

And what, do you think, does hardware initialization on boot, using the code that was piled up over 25 years? What implements idiotic standards such as ACPI? What installs non-removable SMI handlers to mess with your ECC RAM and break your realtime OS? BIOS, that's what! UEFI implementation is a microscopic addition to a festering pile of shit that is PC BIOS. Go, look how they are proud of themselves: http://www.phoenix.com/docs/BridgingBIOStoUEFI_July2007.pdf They taken their BIOS and "made it compatible" by bolting Intel code on top of it. That's the only implementation you will find on anything except, maybe, Apple.

I am not saying Phoenix should not make money. I am not saying that a product like this wouldn't be nice. Buyer Beware! there is something rotten about how they are planning to offer this.
An operating system that requires a yearly subscription and requires you to have it always connected to the internet? I think I like Microsoft's business model for providing OSes over this.....

and if this is linux based.... where's the source? If it is truely linux based, doesn't that make it fall under GNU General Public License (GPL) ?

http://www.hyperspace.com/Product-Editions.aspx:
HyperSpace Dual: annual subscription: $39.95 3-year: $99.95
HyperSpace Hybrid: annual subscription: $59.95 3-year: $149.95

http://www.hyperspace.com/kb/index.php?_m=knowledgebase&_a=viewarticle&kbarticleid=30:
Your e-mail address is required to register your HyperSpace product with Phoenix Technologies. If you purchase HyperSpace, your e-mail address will be used to send receipt of purchase and other product subscription information.

http://www.hyperspace.com/docs/eula/HyperSpace%20EULA%20v.1.doc:
If at the end of the Trial Period you elect not to subscribe for the Software, the Software will be rendered inoperable on your computer and shall remain inoperable until you purchase a subscription.
SUBSCRIPTIONS AND RENEWALS. At the end of the Term, you will be required to renew your subscription for the Software in order to continue using the Software. You acknowledge and agree that failure to renew your subscription will result in the Software no longer being accessible or usable on your computer.
USER OBLIGATIONS. In using the Software, you agree to:
(a) Back up the important Files that reside on your computer on a regular basis;
(b) Keep your password and any pertinent account information private and not, for example, within the same physical location as your computer;
(c) Install the Updates provided by Phoenix to ensure up-to-date Software;
(d) Permit regular and uninterrupted communication with the Internet to enable Updates and certain features and functions of the Software;
(e) Un-install the Software from your computer in the event that you transfer ownership of your computer to another person or entity;
(f) Comply with all applicable laws, including without limitation, all applicable local, state, national and foreign laws, treaties, regulations, ordinances and directives;
(g) Take all reasonable steps to protect the Software from unauthorized reproduction, publication, disclosure, or distribution;
(h) If applicable, ensure your employees and all persons who have the authorized right to use the Software have had the terms of this Agreement made known to them; and
(i) Install and use the Software on only a computer that you own and only for non-commercial purposes

http://www.phoenix.com/en/Privacy+Policy/HyperSpace/default.htm
Opt-Out. If you have a HyperSpace subscription and you do not want Phoenix to collect your User Statistics, the HyperSpace software will provide you with the option to opt out of such data collection.

Phoenix announced HyperSpace more than a year ago. Here is the press release from November 2007: http://investor.phoenix.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=273099 By most accounts it doesn't work. Check out their forums for all of the complaints. It's pretty brutal: http://www.hyperspace.com/support/forums/t/259.aspx Further, Phoenix as a company is close to going out of business. They have less than $23M in cash left and lost $64M in the six months ended March 31: http://investor.phoenix.com/financials.cfm I wouldn't be surprised if part of the problem is they have been doing PR about things like HyperSpace that are great ideas but don't work.

Phoenix announced HyperSpace more than a year ago. Here is the press release from November 2007: http://investor.phoenix.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=273099 By most accounts it doesn't work. Check out their forums for all of the complaints. It's pretty brutal: http://www.hyperspace.com/support/forums/t/259.aspx Further, Phoenix as a company is close to going out of business. They have less than $23M in cash left and lost $64M in the six months ended March 31: http://investor.phoenix.com/financials.cfm I wouldn't be surprised if part of the problem is they have been doing PR about things like HyperSpace that are great ideas but don't work.

Don't forget Phoenix/Award...

I'd say it's quite appropriate that this story set off alarm bells.

According to Phoenix's Investor Update PDF this "Hyperspace" system runs on top of their Trusted Computing BIOS. And surprise surprise the software is locked against the owner, to be modified only under the strict control of Phoenix.

-

http://investor.phoenix.com/en/about+phoenix/investors/news+releases/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=273083&Year=2007

You are a long time Firefox user if you are still confusing it with this:
http://www.phoenix.com/en/Products/Trusted+Applica tions/Phoenix+FirstWare/FirstWare+Connect/default. htm#Where

or maybe this:
http://www.firebirdsql.org/

Much like http://www.phoenix.com/en/about+phoenix/investors/ news+releases/2003/may+27,+2003-a.htm Theftguard.

Admittedly, their BIOS system only operates through the internet, though it will defeat attempts to format the harddrive.

Here's a previously posted link to current theft deterrent techniques. http://tuxmobil.org/stolen_laptops.html . Recommended.

And you didn't install the OS yourself from something "known good" (or at least believed good, like a generic windows install CD bought at best buy or your other favorite local rip-off shop) you're an idiot.

Irrelevant.

BIOS has gotten to the point that it can "phone home" before you even get to the OS. A small modification to hardware or firmware can make it so the system inserts key packets into the network stream, sending covert messages out to the equivalent of electronic "dead drops".

We aren't talking about always-on-a-secure-network PCs, but laptops that'll be jacked into hotels, Starbucks and other insecure networks at some point.

Unless you jack those machines in behind a traffic analyzer/router that captures every packet, then analyze *each* packet that goes out of the machine, you'll never be 100% sure the hardware isn't trojaned.

Ping is nice and innocuous. Are you sure you know what that 56-byte payload contains? Have you ever looked? What about DNS requests? They happen ALL the time. Did you analyze each one to make sure they aren't requesting TXT-records that get forwarded over to a Chinese-owned server in the U.S.?

  -Charles

Phoenix (the BIOS maker) has software that keeps the backups securely on the machines. Here's the link: http://www.phoenix.com/en/Products/Trusted+Applica tions/Phoenix+FirstWare/FirstWare+Recover+Pro/defa ult.htm

Lenovo (formerly IBM) OEMs this into all it's thinkpads. Theirs is linked to that "blue one touch restore button". I am a bid specialist for PC Mall, and I can get you in touch with one of our reps if you want. For 300 licenses, you should be able to get a volume discount.

New World firmware on the other hand does just the opposite. It is in many ways an operating system itself. Pull the hard drive from a Mac and see what all you can do. There are graphical routines, forth compilers, advanced drivers, etc. the Origional 128k Macintosh started the problem.

If by "the problem" you mean the fact that the New World firmware is Open Firmware, with a Forth intepreter and a lot of Forth code, Open Firmware itself was originally invented by Sun, not Apple, for use with an OS that, from Day One, had its own drivers for all hardware.

I do think that I made my origional point. Fat binaries may work for applications and user programs but I really doubt that they would work for the operating system.

I wouldn't assume that. I don't know what the boot process will be on future x86-based Macs, and I don't know whether current Macs support booting El Torito CD-ROMs, but the El Torito spec appears to make at least some effort to support CDs and DVDs that can boot on multiple platforms. I don't know whether OpenFirmware on PowerPC-based Macs directly reads the CD-ROM to find BootX, but it doesn't appear to be a Mach-O binary on my machine (file says it's "data"), and if x86-based Macs would find BootX on some other place on the DVD-ROM (e.g., in one of those "Bootable Disk Image" sections), different versions of BootX could be loaded on different processor types, and those could load the appropriate component of a fat /mach_kernel and of fat kexts.

> If only you didn't need an OS to run the web browser on.

How about this: http://www.phoenix.com/en/Products/Trusted+Applica tions/Phoenix+FirstWare/FirstWare+Connect/default. htm

Surprisingly enough, the article's correct. Phoenix was trying to sell a BIOS that contained a webbrowser at the time, and asked the Mozilla people to rename the browser that became Firefox. Here's the current status of that particular product.

Here's the Phoenix FirstWare Connect browser that runs on top of Phoenix BIOS.

Actually, Phoenix does sell a browser that runs off its own little operating system; FirstWare Connect. The article seems to be correct in this respect.

Phoenix is aiming trusted BIOS code at the desktop.

Especially interseting is the meaning behind "Improved profit margin".

Using the Phoenix Bios Loader

Phoenix BIOS Loader? I know the name of a company that will potentially be more up in arms about this than it ever was about the web browser now known as Mozilla Firefox. Let's see... Phoenix, Firebird, and Firefox are taken, so how many rename cycles will it take to give this loader a distinctive name?

These guys crushed a browser with the same name as their BIOS, so they won't like a space shuttle either. I hope the European shuttle won't be renamed FireFox.

I propose it be called "Phoenix" ;)

Except that their is a company that writes BIOS code that would probably object to other software being called Phoenix.

These days we buy the hardware and, sure the preloaded software probably sucks, so you reconfigure what you want or possibly even reinstall your OS. No problem!

But what happens when the hardware is in cahoots with the operating system, as will be the case with trusted computing? Well it may be a lot more difficult to get your computer to do what you want, because certain software components carrying the right keys will easily slide into operating system hooks, while un-"trusted" software (the stuff you want to run) is more difficult to install and run freely.

I can imagine what a spyware-sporting vendor can accomplish with a trusted computing system. Their spyware, "trusted" software, may be automatically installed and automatically re-installed beyond your control. 3rd party efforts to keep this unwanted software out of the system will fail, because that 3rd party software (no matter what you want) is untrusted... hell, the BIOS itself will help police usage of the system. You're in luck, your hardware is going to protect you ;)

I don't know why I'm doing your work for you, but you should try educating yourself.
Check out BIOS32 services. It's a 32-bit entrance for BIOS services, and it's an industry standard...
PDF link

Here we maintain nearly 400 desktops. Albit not the largest array of machines - however, our solution works quite well.

The following piece of software by Phoenix is my tool of choice. Plus it has the added bonus of randomly incrementing the SID that the microsoft document speaks of in XP and W2k PCs.

I build a base system - image it - then use that image on whichever machine has equivilant hardware. In the middle of imaging 100 identical PC's with XP Pro currently. Full SID incrementation - never had an issue.

I just boot the PC from a floppy in my test room (there is a smarter way to do this however I havent had time to implement it) and start the image. I can do as many PC's at a time as I am prepared to buy licenses.

Big deal it ain't free - it has saved us alot of stress.

For the past 5 years I've been using Imagecast IC3 which was created by Microhouse and is now owned by Pheonix Technologies.

It's fast, does disk-to-disk or multicast on a network and what set it apart for me, generates Win2K SIDS dynamically after imaging.

Our guys use Phoenix ImageCast (formerly StorageSoft) and they don't seem to have any problems with it.

Or at least if they do they don't report it to me.

AMI maybe, but http://www.award.com redirects to http://www.phoenix.com/en/home/.

Phoenix have owned Award for quite some time, and practically every board I've seen lately has had an Award/Phoenix BIOS. AMI are making their money mostly on RAID solutions right now.

On the original story: from the press release on Phoenix's site, it looks like the byline might be a bit OTT (ain't it always?). Basically, it looks just like a turfing-out of legacy crud, turning the BIOS into something more like OpenFirmware or a mainframe BIOS. Just because it's in conjunction with Microsoft doesn't always mean it's a bad thing, but we've got to wait and see.

Tell them that you WON'T BUY their chips anymore

You're right that PCs don't use OpenFirmware. However, PCs use the following industry standards:
BIOS Boot Specification
System Management BIOS Reference Specification

Furthermore, not all Macintosh use OpenFirmware. So if you have an old PowerPC machine that you want to put Linux on, you'd better check to see if you need to keep MacOS on it before you start formatting. You don't have this issue with PCs.

You're right that PCs don't use OpenFirmware. However, PCs use the following industry standards:
BIOS Boot Specification
System Management BIOS Reference Specification

Furthermore, not all Macintosh use OpenFirmware. So if you have an old PowerPC machine that you want to put Linux on, you'd better check to see if you need to keep MacOS on it before you start formatting. You don't have this issue with PCs.

What really needs to be worked on is not just a laptop that runs Linux but laptops that feature the completely open firmware of LinuxBIOS.

One of the final hurdles in open firmware for laptops is having support for the "system/keyboard scan controllers". Closed source offerings include:

Insyde Software

Phoenix

The keyboard scan, power managment (power buttons, cover open/closed, battery charger supervision) on a laptop is typically done separate from the cpu and chipset with a 16 or 32 bit micro (typically by SMSC, Renasas or Fujitsu) with its own firmware with lots of GPIO and keyscan I/O. These controllers are generally tied in with the SMbus for SPD, system management (temp & Voltage monitors) and FLASH ROM BIOS write enables.

Has anyone come across any open source projects that have started work on this?

along with the 'Phoenix Bios Loader' which proceeds to load whatever 3rd party or hacked retail BIOS I choose.

LAWSUIT! Phoenix makes BIOS programs for PCs.

Using IBPhoenix's own logic, why doesn't someone flood them with email, for "stealing" the name from Phoenix Technologies?

That's right, because nobody's going to confuse a database with a browser. Oh, wait, nevermind, I guess they do.

because there was some copyright problem with Pheonix (taken by someone else, don't remember whom though).

It's Phoenix Technologies. They do also offer an embedded web browser.

because there was some copyright problem with Pheonix (taken by someone else, don't remember whom though).

It's Phoenix Technologies. They do also offer an embedded web browser.

Okay, so Phoenix was renamed to avoid legal problems with the Phoenix BIOS people. Now I'm wondering whether we'll see more name changes to avoid legal problems from the Firebird people or the Thunderbird people.

Phoenix had a recent press release, debuting their new Me series of BIOS'en, that let's the motherboard developers include embedded software like mp3 players and such without having to boot into an actual OS.

If VIA could incorporate some of this tech into their EPIA products, we could have some truly cheap multimedia hardware that did everything developers could throw at it.

We certainly live in exciting times for hardware.

Phoenix had a recent press release, debuting their new Me series of BIOS'en, that let's the motherboard developers include embedded software like mp3 players and such without having to boot into an actual OS.

If VIA could incorporate some of this tech into their EPIA products, we could have some truly cheap multimedia hardware that did everything developers could throw at it.

We certainly live in exciting times for hardware.

So Sun is calling this venture "Beonix"?

Isn't that name taken by a vendor of a Mozilla browser distribution?

I guess now the shoe's on the other foot...

I guess it may be their last post, but this operation has always been kind of a "phoenix", rising from the ashes. (Or perhaps soiling themselves with said same.)

Here's why:
DirecTV DSL, a subsidiary of Hughes, which is in turn owned by General Motors, was formerly known as Telocity until Hughes purchased them in July 2001.

In my part of the country, the switch to the corporate entity Telocity occurred at about the same time as Northpoint bankruptcy forced a CLEC switch from Northpoint to Covad for some customers of Megapath. In October 2000, Megapath had purchased the assets and customer base of an ISP. Megapath kept the business customers of that ISP and spun off their residential customers to Chicago-based Telocity.

And the name of that ISP? Formerly-St. Louis-based Phoenix Networks, founded by a guy named Peter Roberts, who evolved a one-man network integration business into a rapid-growth internet service. Of course that Phoenix should not to be confused with Phoenix the BIOS that has the legal team that is making Phoenix the superlative web browser change it's name, none of which is happening in Phoenix.

Dizzy yet? I know I am. Hope I got at least the broad strokes right. Anyway, I'm glad I got off that Merry-Go-Round during what seemed to be a weekend-stay at MegaPath, though I supported a few friends throught the multiple changes that followed. Maybe the ride finally is coming to a stop.

It's not like these two are competing technologies.

Actually, they are. Phoenix FirstView Connect is a stripped-down web browser. Mozilla.org Phoenix is a stripped-down web browser.

Phoenix is a straight up IE killer

And Phoenix Technologies' product is a straight up Pocket IE killer. So will be Gecko, once the Weenies reduce its footprint.

Well, according to their forums, last time I checked the poll was split 60/40 in keeping the name Phoenix and battling it out with Phoenix Technologies for rights to use the name.

I would guess either a) They are waiting to change the name with 0.6 -or- b) They are testing the patience of Phoenix Technologies ;)

Either way, I don't like the idiotic request from PT. It's not like these two are competing technologies. And phoenix is a generic word. What are they going to do next? Patent the word "Technologies"?

In any event. Phoenix is a straight up IE killer, and it's all that matters.

I am writing in regard to the issues related to the Phoenix Web Browser as discussed in this Slashdot.org story [ ... ]

I hope you didn't really embarass yourself by sending that to the phoenix.com people. If so, all you've done is stand up and wave a big metaphorical placard saying "I have absolutely no understanding of this issue, but I'm going to complain anyway!"

Of course, you're not by any means the only one... *sigh*.

It doesn't matter that the word "phoenix" is used in other ways, by other organisations, for other purposes. It doesn't matter that there is a city called Phoenix (any more than that there's an Indonesian island called Java as well as the Sun-developed programming language Java), nor that there is a mythological bird called the Phoenix.

You see, the mythological bird Phoenix does not produce and sell a web browser (or a computer BIOS). The US city Phoenix does not produce and sell a web browser (or a computer BIOS).

The only two web browser products associated with the "Phoenix" name are Phoenix FirstView Connect and the Phoenix web browser project based on Mozilla.

One of those web-browser-producing organisations has a trademark on the use of the word "Phoenix" in the area of that product. The other one does not.

I'm sure you can connect the remaining dots.

You might want to consider sending a follow-up email to phoenix.com apologising for your mistake and withdrawing your comments. Well, that would be the polite thing to do, in any case *wry grin*[0].

Pete.

[0] ...and you're a Slashdot poster, so the odds of you backing down and admitting you're wrong (even in the face of overwhelming evidence), let alone apologising, are pretty small ;-).

I guess you've never heard of Phoenix FirstView Connect

How is that confusing? The name of that browser (if it is one) is "First View Connect", not "Phoenix".

It can and will cause confusion. Phoenix (bios people) is releasing a web browser. See here for details.

But Phoenix (the company) also sells browsers.

Yes, in fact, Phoenix has sold that for a number of years.

Phoenix has sold that for a number of years.

They already sell one, and have since 1999, far longer than the other Phoenix's lifespan.