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Dell To Techs: Don't Help Customers Remove Spyware
Alien54 writes "Well, more exactly, be advised that if you are giving a Dell for Xmas, not only will it probably come preloaded with spyware, but their tech support lines will refuse to tell users how to remove it, and will not give people advice on where to find some good tools to remove it. As seen in the latest newsletter from SpyWareInfo, Dell sent an internal memo to its tech support minions which says in part: 'NOTICE: Use of spyware removal software may conflict with user license agreements of other applications installed on your system. Please consult your user license agreements for further information. Dell does not endorse the use of spyware removal software and cannot provide support on these products.' This means we do not take callers to download.com or doxdesk.com, nor do we recommend spyware removal programs, nor do we advise callers on the use of spyware removal programs. This includes using phrases "We don't support the removal of spyware, but I use..."'" (Read on below.Update: 12/03 06:36 GMT by T : And for an update, too.)
"Now isn't that just nifty. Several folks in the antispyware/antivirus community have signed an open letter to Dell Inc. asking them to retract this possibly foolish and misguided policy. That letter is located at here." Update: 12/03 06:36 GMT Mike Healan, editor of spywareinfo.com, writes "The original posting is misleading.
Dell is absolutely not installing or preinstalling spyware and the
headline gives the impression that it is."
But an obvious solution, I guess, is simply to not recommend Dell to your friends and family. Not that I ever did in the first place.
What DO they recommend instead? Reformatting the hard drive and reinstalling to solve the spyware related problems?
C:\>
That excerpt from the memo says no such thing.
What it says is Dell are for some reason now very aware that they're at risk of getting sued if they advise people to do thinks that violate somebody's EULA.
fortune -o
I would be happy to sell some dell user one of my machines instead.. seems a day of a noob installing spyware totally hoses any machine...
Dell says system restore CD everytime anyway, how is this different?
Who's lawyers called up theirs to tell them user license agreements would be violated if Dell techs told people how to remove Spyware and therefore make Dell liable and sueable?!
Well, no matter, we wipe all the Dells we get in at my company (thank god for RIS).
Jeesh...
*sigh*
Yet another example of corporate arrogance and stupidity.
If you buy a Dell, they support the hardware and software they sold you. They don't support random crap you decided to download from the Internet, nor will they be able to answer your cooking questions. Why does this surprise people?
Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?
Spyware is a pain in the neck to remove (regedit anyone?), and tech support for removing it probably costs them a fortune.
This just sounds like a semi-good excuse to me.
I'm not getting a Dell!
"We shall grapple with the ineffable, and see if we may not eff it after all." - Douglas Adams
Use of spyware removal software may conflict with user license agreements of other applications installed on your system.
Because i know when i buy a computer there is a contract I sign that says I want it fully loaded with spyware. Now granted when the computer boots up sometimes there are user agreements that needed to be clicked, but I just have one of my siblings that are under 18 click agree to those. So How did i violate a license agreement?
30% Troll, 50% Underrated, 10% Interesting
Score:5, Troll
"Sorry, but we don't endorse or reccommend the use of Dell computers." ... "The use of Dell computers may violate your right to privacy."
Yeah...
What software comes pre-loaded on Dells that brings the spyware in? Did they start bundling KaZaa?
dell is just covering their asses from third party software that might break stuff.
dozens upon dozens of help forums talk about it. Whole articles are dedicated the fighting spyware. If a customer is looking for an answer there is no possible way that he could miss many of these articles.
"we don't support it but I use Spybot Search and destroy" (on my dad's win2k box)
"We don't support it but I use linux"
HP
IBM
Compaq
Alienware
Gateway
Build your own
We have choices, after all.
At the small computer shop I run, we're making quite a bit of money these days cleaning off spyware from computers. Everyone has it, and now that it's getting more publicity, everyone wants to get rid of it. When people suddenly realize that their computer actually *is* slower than when they got it, they want it fixed, rather than buying a new one. Which is fine by us. Spyware removal is pure labor. Download AdAware and Spybot, hit it with a double whammy and it's amazing how much smoother older systems run. Viruses used to be the big money makers. Not anymore. So all you Dell customers out there....we'd be happy to help you clean off your system ;)
---- El diablo esta en mis pantalones! Mire, mire!
Why don't they just refuse to put these software titles on their computers. I feel if a company thinks it can steal your data, it shouldn't be forced upon users and potential new users.
Well, more exactly, be advised that if you are giving a Dell for Xmas, not only will it probably come preloaded with spyware
Where does either article say this? In fact, one of them says "Dell itself includes an antispyware product on all Dell PCs that ship with a built-in DVD player.
I don't think that will work for the average user. Dell provides special CDs to restore Dell programs (drivers, support software, and now spyware, it would seem). Since most people would not want to search for every driver individually on the internet, and many use the Dell programs, they'll probably just use the restore CD they reformat, which would just put the spyware back on.
GL
... used for targeted mass marketing!
Dude! you're getting tracked on your Dell!
~corporate tool, but employed~
Unless its' some of that hard-core porn-ware that a guy at our office got. Nothing removed it so they just reinstalled his OS.
BTW, a friend of a friend of a friend's third, hand-me-down advice is still better than the service I've gotten from Dell in the past.
Needle Nardle Noo
so yeah, this is a terrible idea.
I work in an on-campus computer repair shop. We're the Dell certified repair center for the entire college.
We pretty much only sell Dells to incoming students, and we're always getting them back in with "my computer is slow." we boot it up and find out they have like 90 million spyware/adaware apps installed. SaveNow, Gator, PrecisionTime, New.Net, WhenUSave, MySearch, SearchNow, IE.Net Drivers, and the list goes on.
Usually we just remove all of them however we can and send them on their way, but apparently if we do this, we'll now be breaking Dells Warranty?
this is definitely not cool, since we can't do that and stay certified...
After a quick RTFA, I see:
If you or a family member receive a Dell PC as a gift this Christmas, you may be in for a surprise, if it becomes infected with spyware.
Emphasis mine.
So there's no spyware known to be shipped on Dells. That's good at least. On to the memo.
NOTICE: Use of spyware removal software may conflict with user license agreements of other applications installed on your system. Please consult your user license agreements for further information. Dell does not endorse the use of spyware removal software and cannot provide support on these products.
What?? They won't support third party utilities that muck around in your registry and delete files in your system directory? Those bastards!
Seriously, nothing to see here folks. It's common sense.
Weaselmancer
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Hello Mr Dell Phone Monkey, I'm having a little trouble determining from the user licences which applications include Spyware. Not wanting to breach any of the licences foisted on me by scum sucking bottom feeders, and by spyware vendors, I want to remove such applications entirely - surely you support uninstallation of unwanted bundled programs?
Wow! Nice job on getting that past the lameness filter. Or maybe it doesn't do numbers. Either way, this information is invaluable to the troll community. I salute you for your continuing efforts at improving not only yourself, but the community as a whole. As a token of my appreciation, I present to you a greased-up Yoda doll. Congratulations.
Now, of course, you can violate the EULA and get yourself some spyware removing tools and be ride of it.
Its a whole other story though, if Dell starts advising people to break these agreements. Granted, they are legally gray, but thats the point entirely of not wanting to get into the fray and being a potential party to breaking a contractual agreement.
A lawsuit avoided entirely is better than a lawsuit won.
-
Alright, the subject is a bit mean coming from a Mac user. But, I can't help but think it's funny. Being a Mac user seems to sort of feel like being a Republican. They are always put down, but the grass does look a whole lot greener on this side of the fence. If i was a new Dell owner I'd feel pretty taken. Sucker printed right on my forehead. While your shopping dell why not pick up their iPod wannabe.
Dell puts some applications that contain spyware as part of the standard deal you get from them. Removing it might make those programs not work, and thus the customers would be mad.
Or, they want the average user's computer to become so fucked up by spyware that it FORCES them to upgrade.
"Dude, you're getting... "
Uhm.
Uh...
Hmm... pell... nell... tell... no, no...
Well, crap. Anyone else wanna take a shot at this?
---
Never criticize religion on Slashdot. You will be modded down for "Troll" no matter how factual it is.
if any family members or friends ask for advise for a computer i will volunteer to build it myself, or let them use my computer to go to walmart.com to order one without a Windoze OS and i will give them a FREE copy of Linux and free technical info when they need help...
Dell only loses with ignorant policys such as this...
If the spyware is on the computer when you buy it, the spyware is also on the "recovery" CD.
Dude, you're getting Debian, and you can try it out with Knoppix, is the only answer that won't cost you $150 and still come with spyware. That's right, XP home comes with spyware all on it's own. Tools such as spybot and addaware, as nice as they are, can't really solve the problem. Closed source sucks that way, and it's getting worse every year.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
All Dell is saying that they can't endorse any spyware removal software. They are not endorsing any spyware. Most likely this is only to save Dell from any legal entanglements. Legally they might be liable to spyware companies if they intervene on user's behalf. If you read the last line, they are telling their reps that they can give personal testimonials but cannot do so for the company. While this is not an ideal solution, we do live in a litigious society.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
1. it's suhbitches. that's the way it's pronounced. 2. people who don't know how to remove spyware after asking friends probably don't know they have it, and so won't call dell. 3. people who do know about spyware will generally know the tools to get rid of it. 4. people who actually are vigilant about their privacy and security will reformat and install their own os on their computer anyway, making this a moot point.
This is a week old news item. The discussion on the security forum of Dslreports brought up some good points. (See this post.)
What happens if the user hoses a system using one of the tools? HijackThis will allow you to 'fix' items that shouldn't be fixed. Spybot can do the same. In my opinion, a spyware killer in a novice's hands can be as damaging as some spyware.
Dell is also covering themselves against lawsuits, as the article pointed out. This should ultimately keep the prices down anyway. Come on folks- Dell support has ceased to be good. You buy a dell for a good price on a great computer, and then you hit up your neighborhood geek if you mess something up.
On a different topic, I wonder just what preinstalled spyware the article was talking about?
-Ryan
AUWYHSTOT (Acronyms are Useless When You Have to Spell Them Out Too)
The new spyware removal script:
....
User: My computer is trying to sell me video cameras in 27 different popup windows.
Tech: Your system is broken. Buy a new one. We have a new special for
Get ready for the next, most insidious round of spyware yet, kids. Your PC calling back to the mothership reporting to the manufacturer everything you're doing, giving them the ammunition to call you up and say "now you've done it your warrany is void." Then some pot-smoking, commercial-acting intern will crack into the master database and get all your favorite pr0n URLs.
Well, I was starting to type a message about how disappointed I was with Dell, given all the money I've thrown them. Then, I RTFA for a change and this may not be as bad as it seems.
Dell may just be concerned about legal issues with helping Joe User de-install some software where the EULA requires the Spyware to be running -- Dell would be the ones with the deep pockets after all. And, some spyware removal that involves registry changes might destablize things in some way (I don't know). Probably more corporate lawyer nonsense than a misguided attempt to support spyware in its various forms.
Some program installs come with spyware, and the license agreement does require leaving it alone (since that's the compensation they get for the free software). So, Dell may just not want to step into the middle of this.
Maybe the finger should stay focused on the spyware creaters and bundlers for the time being...
Sleep is for the Weak
This is what I always end up doing for family and friends. In the future I will end up working on their computer anyway they go (most of you probally have the same experience). When I work on it I would like to have the most knowledge of the software/hardware configuration.
Considering that they pissed off a whole lot of people with a bait and switch deal (slickdeals.net) a few days ago, I think they are doing a great job of making people buy hardware elsewere this holiday season,
It sucks that they have to do this, but I can't say I'm surprised. Having worked in tech support for years, there are always crazy rules about things you "can't do" -- and every good tech I've ever worked with breaks them on a routine basis, when they think it will make the customer happy.
This is just another example how profit and money is always put before the customer satisfaction, and customer in general. In Soviet russia, You spy on the spyware.
OMG OMG OMG WTF OMG WTF BBQ STFU RTFM, OMFG OMG OMG OMG ROFL LMAO OMG WTF STFU ROFLMAO
The unrelenting inevitability with which companies that are initially taken to have a social conscience, eventually transform into soul-less behemoths never ceases to amaze me.
Time to dig up Michael Dell's autobiography. And recycle/compost it.
In the open letter from the anti-spyware community, they say a representative from Dell informed them the response would be: "Call your ISP."
If that's true, it's a travesty. That's like your car insurance provider telling you that dealing with damage to your vehicle from a collision should be dealt with by the Department of Transportation.
I don't understand why Dell doesn't grab the bull by the horns and partner up with somebody. Isn't that what all the pre-packaged computer companies do these days? They all have a buddy in the anti-virus industry. When digital music became the craze, they leapt to bundle MusicMatch and the like. Why not call up LavaSoft and say, "Want to get packed in with everything we sell?" Dell's choice seems like a step away from gaining customer confidence.
You're getting spied on!
These days we buy the hardware and, sure the preloaded software probably sucks, so you reconfigure what you want or possibly even reinstall your OS. No problem!
But what happens when the hardware is in cahoots with the operating system, as will be the case with trusted computing? Well it may be a lot more difficult to get your computer to do what you want, because certain software components carrying the right keys will easily slide into operating system hooks, while un-"trusted" software (the stuff you want to run) is more difficult to install and run freely.
I can imagine what a spyware-sporting vendor can accomplish with a trusted computing system. Their spyware, "trusted" software, may be automatically installed and automatically re-installed beyond your control. 3rd party efforts to keep this unwanted software out of the system will fail, because that 3rd party software (no matter what you want) is untrusted... hell, the BIOS itself will help police usage of the system. You're in luck, your hardware is going to protect you ;)
No software comes pre-loaded on Dells that brings the spyware in. Note the creative use of the word 'probably'; as in 'not backed up by fact', 'completely invented on the spot', or 'rampant sensationalist speculation'.
The story submitter must be a Strong Bad fan!
~ Aero
So it's definately a lousy policy, but this would be a clarification, nothing more.
Bush: He's Liberal in all the wrong ways.
> Dell provides special CDs to restore Dell programs...
Debian provide some pretty special CDs too.
Expert in software patents or patent law? Contribute to the ESP wiki!
The memo only says not to recommend a third party spyware removal program. It does not say they can't assist the users in uninstalling spyware.
A lot of companies have policies of not recommending third party products they're not prepared to support if something goes wrong.
I work for an ISP, and we received advance warning of this about two days ago. The reason we're concerned is because our policy generally states that if it's not a problem with the cable modem, then it's a problem with the computer and thus the customer needs to call the manufacturer. Spyware falls into the category of "problem with the computer". I've been recommending the use of SpybotS&D for about four months now and haven't been blasted by the managers, but other techs are undoubtedly going to get the "but Dell said spyware was something you guys could fix since it uses the internet" song and dance from customers.
Not that Dell or my company has the right answer either way, but I just wish the weaselly fucks who write spyware would just stop.
"Why Subscribe?" Good question...
Comcast does the same thing. Their software comes preloaded with spyware. Broadjump, I think it's called. It's been a while, but when I worked for them, we were not allowed to say anything regarding spyware or spyware removing, either. I find it quite amusing.
Apple
:'(
$20 says I get modded troll
Error 407 - No creative sig found
Actually, this makes sense.. Some dipshit called up Dell, and said something like "Hey, my computer runs like crap, help me out.." The tech on the other end told him to get Spybot Search and Destroy (which rocks, and has a license that allows you to use it on company boxes without paying a fee!) and it totally fscked up dipshit's copy of Kazaa... Dipshit compains to tech's boss, then to tech's bosses boss.
Dell is just covering their asses.
OK, this spyware thing is just one example. The fact is that Dell has just lost touch with their home user customer base. One thing I've learned from working with Dell for the past few years is that they don't give a flip about the home users... But then again, why should they? They make money off corporate/government contracts, not supporting grannies who don't know where the any key is.
After having such good experiences with Dell in the Office, we started recommending people buy Dell for their home, too. Oh boy BIG mistake. The hardware is substandard, just about every default installation is munged somehow or another, and the things generally stop working within a year. *NO ONE* I know has gotten a good Dell home PC recently. Meanwhile we noticed a definite decrease in quality of customer support in the past year...
Me: Here's an article from Adobe that says there's a known issue between this motherboard and Adobe Acrobate 5.5, what's the solution?
Faceless E-mail Tech: Here's an article on how to troubleshoot Windows 2000 startup problems.
Me: Argh!
Ad infinitum.
On that note, is there any big name manufacturer that still makes/supports good home machines? People always ask me recommendations but I'm out of them, other than "Just buy a Mac".
Most people can't even use a search engine, the only thing they can figure out how to do is go to an unrelated forum and type in all caps "Help!!! my computer is broke!!!" without providing any further information.
I'm a Mac/Linux guy, but my wife has a number of Windows-only programs she uses. So we ended up buying a Dell about six months ago. It came with a LOT of crap - maybe it wasn't technically spy-ware, but it seemed there were a number of items that weren't there for our benefit.
;-)
First thing I did was reformat the disk; then I reinstalled the OS and put on only the software we wanted. Oh, and I did leave a little room on the disk for dual-booting to Linux...
#DeleteChrome
The following statement:
be advised that if you are giving a Dell for Xmas, not only will it probably come preloaded with spyware>
What makes the author assume that Dell will deliberately install spyware on consumers' machines ???
Just because I won't help my neighbour quit smoking, that means I'll buy him cigarettes?
ok bad example, but I'm sure you get the point.
Oh, and two transfers later, I finally had a hardware tech walk me through diagnostics which said my drive was bad, which they replaced.
Need a Linux consultant in New Orleans?
While I typically don't care much for Gateway, I have noticed whenever I need to take my laptop in for repairs (whenever meaning frequently- the hardware is junk) they have fliers all over the place warning their customers about spyware and telling them how to get rid of it. I've never liked Dell, and I like them even less now. While most of us on Slashdot are just as happy (if not happier) using custom built machines, I know a lot of less savvy users who like having one company they can go to for support. Unfortunately for them, there just don't seem to be many deservedly reputable manufacturers out there anymore.
The crazy thing is that DELL is adding this spyware on your computer!
They want you to PAY them to spy on you!
I am not ever going to buy a dell, unless they stop shipping ALL spyware with their systems.
I am also going to make sure we stop buying dell at work and go with HP or IBM instead.
I think it's good to be a little bit skeptical first before telling everyone not to buy a Dell. That being said, I have some issues:
1. The validity of supposed 'email' that Dell sent out. According to this site, this refers to Dell's own preloaded applications. OK, but since when would Dell EVER refer to their own applications as "spyware" as they have done in this email. Spyware is now quite a volatile topic, and I would imagine that if Dell did infact have some sort of spyware preloaded on their machines, they'd at least be good enough to lie to us (via their techs) about what it is.
2.3rd Party Applications - As mentioned in (1), I don't think Dell would refer to their own applications as spyware, and if for arguments sake believe the email is geniune, then it refers only to 3rd party applications. So then we have a policy that is in line with Dell's general policy of not supporting 3rd party apps.
Most of us work in an environment where we have to deal with Dell's. I personally think the machines are pretty good and the service isn't bad. I've even gotten the techs help find a conflict with a 3rd party app before on a couple of occasions, but I recognize this is above and beyond the call of duty. Does Dell owe us a duty if we install 3rd party spyware to tell us to use a 3rd party spyware removal tool? What if that spyware removal tool removes an important dll and hoses the system? Then the tech support lines become even more efficient.
I just wanted to play devil's advocate here. I have no idea if that email is real or not, but I think we shouldn't immediately jump all over Dell until we can find out the truth. As it stands now, someone has posted a few sentences on a website somewhere - hardly damning evidence.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur
To those of you who say "Blah blah blah, of course they're not going to support some random crap you download off the Internet, blah blah blah":
Ok, so basically any and all tech-support contracts that came with someone's new Dell, that they paid for, is now void because they installed a PROGRAM? Right. So now what, are we only allowed to install "Dell Approved" software on our own computers? I think I hear the sound of a hood being welded shut.
It all comes down to money, every damn time. It's about the pre-installed software that contains spyware. Dell has contracts with these 3rd party software companies ($$$), and these 3rd party software companies will profit from the use of their spyware. It's a win-win for Dell and the 3rd parties. Guess who doesn't win? The customer who paid $700 for their new computer... But who cares about the customer, anyway? We'll just put them on the line with some $7.00/hr 1st tier call-center techie in India (No offense at all to Indians, but that's where most tech support calls get fielded) that's reading off a script, and has no actual verbal resemblance to a human with feelings or compassion for the poor user who just wants to send their mom a picture of their new baby.
I always used to tell people that if they were going to buy a name-brand computer, to buy a Dell. At least their hardware isn't complete crap.
I guess that recommendation goes in the garbage now.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Even though it's not very nice to hear that from a computer manufacturer, it is no surprise that Dell won't give out advise on how to break somebody's EULA, even if it protects something as nasty as spyware. Endless lawsuits would loom in Dell's horizons if they chose to do so. The thing I'm a bit more concerned is the timing: if they were so concerned, why not to issue this statement before?
Anyway, my 0.02
R.dell just wants more money. i liked dell but now this irks me a bit. Maybe we should put dell on all the spam lists.
Some software money can't buy. For everything else there's Micros~1
What other collector of Spyware do you need besides IE???
Dell will not support 3d party AV, and the old shit they bundle with the boxes is useless.
Best Spyware defense?
Linux
Do you nuke windoze update? Media Player? Hit Box? These programs come with XP and they phone home with more info than you might expect or can even know. If you still run IE and Outlook, you will fight an intense and losing battle to keep garbage off your machines.
Given the nature of closed source, I don't recomend running spy removal software either. It never really works and it can't. Closed source simply sucks that way. If you hook it up to the internet, it's going to be broken soon.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Anyway, it is really no more the responsibility of Dell to remove spyware from a computer than it is their responsibility to remove IE. Both are security issues. Both have costs and benefits. But the playing field has been set.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
for a major cable internet provider in the states...*cough*beep beep*cough*, our policy is to just refer the subscriber to download.com/google for either Adaware or Spybot:S&D. We do not help install the programs, just merely guide them. I don't see anything wrong with that, we even expilictly state that we cannot help them any futher.
It takes 2 minutes and you wouldn't believe how grateful people are, even when you just shove them in a direction.
Dell isn't the only one doing this though, my girlfriend recently worked as a phone tech for Compaq/HP and they have the EXACT same policy.
when you have 2 tweenage daughters who insisting visting highly commercialized sites to play "free" games like throwing snow balls at Will Ferrell's elf- you have to expect spyware invasion. There maybe other great methods for removal but I like XCleaner. It is simple to use and it works. If there are better tools- please speak up- it seems obvious to me that one needs a robust toolbox to maintain a persistent connection to the Internet. /binarimon
As often said in larger scale business, "If it doesn't follow the exact agreements or rules then we don't support it." Ironicly this isn't a new practice. The same logic that is being applied here is the same reason ISP's often SAY they don't want you using or running servers from your connection. They for one cannot support something they don't either have the training for or have had permission to show someone how to do. Secondly dell points out a valid fact in that say removing a certain part of a file in your computer that is attached and sold with WindowsXP is 100% spyware. Well Windows probably says somewhere in that adorable user agreement that we cannot tamper or remove such devices. That user agreement (like Napster2.0) blocks Dell legally from saying to all their users to get rid of it because if dell did that microsoft would have a big cry fest over it. Unfortunately this is also true with not just Dell but Gateway and HP as far as im aware. (I havent had a chance to check out other systems.) My best suggestion is for users to become aware of spyware and to understand that it may not be a direct issue with A large company that builds the systems. Hint to those who wish to get rid of spyware for free! http://www.safer-networking.org/
not bad for your "first" day, rimjob.
This is becoming ridiculous and Slashdot must not give in in this kind of anti-corporate propaganda. First of all, Dell is not bundling spyware and it is simply saying that it will not support software that they did not supply. This is the same as getting a virus in your computer and then calling Dell because your BrandX antivirus stopped working. Having said that, of all the brand PCs I've had, I ended up reinstalling Windows from scratch and then just the applications I wanted. Amazingly enough, my iBook defaults were good as they only had about two games and Internet Explorer, which you can easily remove :).
Some packages such as DivX are bundled with spyware and if you remove the spyware, the program will not work properly. As you can see, if you have several of these programs dependent on spyware components, then you're going to have a lot of problems if you run Ad-aware and remove everything. Dell probably just doesn't want n00bs calling them 24-7 whining about how nothing works on their "brand spankin' new" Dell computer.
I have done a few cleans where the spyware has gotten to 500+ program files etc, and removing them caused SERIOUS system corruption forcing a format>reinstall. Of course everyone blames you, but in this case, they would mount some kind of lawsuit against Dell for recommending the removal. I actually blame stupid people.
A full grown stallion's cock, when fully erect, will measure some two to three feet long.
but the mods, they are so spiteful.
So whoever Taco will blow,
Mod it low, mod it low, mod it low.
~~~
The spyware in the dell The spyware in the dell Hi-ho, the derry-o The spyware in the dell
http://jesus.everdense.com/
As much as I love Ad Aware and programs of that type that find and remove spyware programs, using them to do the removal can cause you some bigtime system problems if the spyware is not removed properly. Some of these spyware programs are so insidious, or just so poorly written, that the removal of the program, dll, or a particular registry key can wreck a Windows installation. I've learned that the hard way.
Dell is simply limiting their involvement in this process. After all, it's not their fault that the user put the spyware on the system to begin with.
All they have to do is say "You can search for SpyBot and run it if you want".
It's gotta be such a common problem that they would probably save on support costs if they just replaced their on-hold music with a message saying exactly that.
A Multiplayer Strategy Game for Mac OS X, Windows, and Linux
why don't you go play in the middle of the road.
...not only will it probably come preloaded with spyware...
Okay, I RTFA, and I still have to ask, what spyware is preloaded with Dell systems? Was this part added for emphasis? FUD? I hate Dell more than Diablo (I'm a Mac user), but let's keep things honest here.
Kip Hawley is an idiot.
OK, so maybe it's not spyware per se, but my Dell 5150 came with two programs, DSLog and Dell Support, that try to connect to the Internet about half an hour to an hour after the computer boots up. And they try to connect simultaneously, which is the suspicious part. Who knows what info Dell Support could be sending, and who cares about DSLog. Even when I let Dell Support connect to the internet, it almost always pops up a little bubble saying there are new alerts and garbage like that. The alerts are just virus warnings, etc. It just got so irritating that I had ZoneAlarm ban all connections from those two programs.
being called a minion. I think articles need to stop the little bits of piss-poor spin and just report the truth. Editorializing does nothing more than tell your readers they don't know how to think for themselves. At least find out the reasons behind the story before you post inflammatory articles.
Dell's got good reasons for not recommending a specific spyware package. Those reasons are....we don't support software! We support hardware and the restoration of software to the state in which it came from the factory. We don't reccommend spyware for the same reason that we don't take users into the registry, i.e. we've seen what happens then far too often. Some spyware removal tools blindly remove registry keys which may be used by actually useful programs, thus creating MORE tech support problems when users call us saying "Why won't my whizz-bang screensaver work anymore?? It worked before you had me run that spyware program!" So, in the end, our not recommending a spyware package saves us time, and prevents tech support calls dealing solely with software issues, which, as I already noted, we don't support. We only support software to the extent that software supports the hardware. Maybe, that's because we're a hardware manufacturer, not a software development firm. It's not our job.
The probability that someone is watching you is directly proportional to the stupidity of your actions.
So what exactly is the spyware included with a Dell do? I've never used a Dell so this is all news to me, although it doesn't surprise me one bit.
Simple solution
/s/u/q
...
a:\format c:
End of problem
---- "Logoff! That cookie shit makes me nervous!" - A. Soprano
As in Darth?
/. faces is like pissing on an
Don't you think we've all been had by a hoax? Waving
this sort of think in
anthill.
If I was one of Dell's customers (God forbid!), and I heard that coming from the mouth of one of the barely-english-speaking untrained personell Dell employs - I would instantly request a return on the product.
;-)
Maybe if no one buys their products, they will tone down their chutzpah a bit.
Hey! Maybe they'll stop using cheap third-world sweatshop labor and start hiring Americans too!
Oh wait....nooooo. just FUCKING DUMP DELL. Make the computer yourself - or request the help of the friendly neighborhood geek.
reread it!
it specifically says techs are not allowed to recommend any solutions
Can you please login next time so I can filter this crap out?
uhm...
it seems nobody has been reading the latest microsoft(r) windows(tm) license agreements, because they qualify the whole burrito as 'spyware.'
am i the only person not surprised to know this?
http://www.spywareinfo.com/articles/dell/support_l etter.php
A Multiplayer Strategy Game for Mac OS X, Windows, and Linux
How can I be in breach of a Software Licence if I destroy any copies of it in my posession?
I don't want it, I do not want a copy, so I am not aggreeing with the license.
Can some one now legally force me in to using software I don't want?
Don't think so....
Del Get a brain.
RSC
As Microsoft is quick to tell us: the OS and the browser are the same. They're integrated.
Dell supports Microsoft's OS and thus its browser. All these spyware apps attach to IE and cause huge problems. I had one person hand me a laptop chock full of spyware constantly changing the homepage (one program would change it and another would change it again) while in the background there were more than a few processes trying to download more spyware and another installing more.
Needless to say IE didnt work at all, it was just stuck on some orbitz page and the thing was more or less locked-up, but I did manage to get ad-aware to run.
Most of my friend's PCs problems can be traced to spyware they dont even know about because of how official ActiveX boxes look and the tons of legalese involved.
Dell would rather recommend a full-reinstall than ask the person "This may remove software you've installed" and be off the hook, legally. Instead Joe and Jane Dell owner will lose their baby photos and everything else they didn't backup after being told to reinstall from the rescue CD.
I think Dell has the obligation to be honest with their customers. If the tech believes its spyware he should tell them what it is and how to remove it - if they want.
More generically we need some kind of media campaign or some way to inform people about spyware, perhaps every company giving away free software without spyware should have an obligatory like to Ad Aware or Spybot during the install process.
Check out some of the support forums in the PC world. A significant number of serious problems are fixed simply with Ad Aware or Spybot.
Oh well, Dell gets a negative mark for not being honest with their customers. Tell the family to buy a Mac this year.
Back in 2000 Michael Dell called PC users who tinker with their systems a "lunatic fringe." Now this. I'm having second thoughts about continuing to recommend Dell laptops to my clients.
Having lived in the same city as Dell (in fact my church took over the building that used to house Michael Dell's synagogue...) for 10 years, and having known countless people who worked at Dell, and having worked (as a contractor) at Dell myself, I can confidentaly say there is likely one thing and one thing only going on here.
Dell is a leader in a very low margin business. They are virtually masterful at cutting costs. Their corporate buildings are made of prefab concrete, somewhere between ugly warehouse and office building, but just nice enough looking to be presentable and not look especially cheap. They expect their employees to work 60 hours a week and PRODUCE. Yet, they don't pay their employees a whole lot. They are the only major employer in the State of Texas, as far as I know, that has a policy of not paying out vacation time when you stop working there. When I worked there years and years ago, one of my duties was to order office supplies. The basic ball point pens were 3 cents each (due to a special deal with a supplier, I believe), and I was instructed not to order anything other than basic pens without a good reason. Dell also hires virtually all its workers as contractors first; if they are good enough, they may be hired on, but if not, there are no qualms about letting you go.
Fundamentally, if there is one characteristic that describes Dell, it's that they're cheap, cheap, CHEAP.
So, unless there is some evidence to support a different viewpoint, I'm quite certain that Dell is doing this only because they don't want those people to screw up their systems and call tech support back begging for help. Because that would cost more money.
And, to be fair, it's not as if Dell owes their customer help with some problem that is not Dell's fault anyway. If they did offer support for things like that, it might entice people to buy their products, but it would be just a perk.
That's all well and good, but at least Dell offers warranties on their systems. I build my own systems, but I recommend Dell systems for people who don't have the need or technical knowhow to build their own. I personally don't see a problem with Dell's policy on this... I think it's their right to avoid potential conflicts from software that did not come preinstalled on the user's system, and they're not obligated to offer support for that.
Who's lawyers called up theirs to tell them user license agreements would be violated
Many programs include Claria's GAIN Network software to deliver advertisements that fund continued development of the programs, with EULA terms to the effect: "You agree not to interfere with the function of the advertisement delivery software included with this Program."
as an L2. And I'm posting from home(for once). I can tell you this, I didn't get any memo today, yesterday or last week about this. If such a thing would have come out, I would have heard about it.
Flame me if you like, but I have had pretty good experiences with Dell's tech support on the few occasions I have needed it. Mind you, I only go to them for hardware issues. I don't see that they have any obligation to provide support for stupid things that I might do with my own software.
BTW, Fr0sty PIe5t.
For Dell."Dude, you're getting some spyware!"
Now more than ever I'll rather throw myself to an incoming train than buying a Dell.
Bad costumer support, crappy parts, soon dying hard drives, baboon interns, stoned dudes and so on: That's DELL
So go and flip off Michael Dell and all the idiots that think are into the IT/Computer business just from buying dells.
P.S. Send a bomb to Fiorina if you have the time.
"Dell is selling you a computer with spyware PRE-INSTALLED, and are refusing to help you remove it because the spyware companies are paying Dell to put it there."
No, they're not! I can assure you that if Dell computers came with spyware preinstalled, there would be bigger headlines about it than this. In fact, the linked article doesn't even mention that. It says that if you get spyware installed on your computer, Dell techs aren't authorized to recommend third-party programs to remove it, which was exactly the point of the grandparent -- Dell is not a substitute for a local computer expert.
The only thing that could possibly be construed as spyware is the Dell Support Center, which does come preloaded, but is easily disabled. Compared to some other computer manufacturers (like, say, Sony, which puts their media center crap all over their PCs), Dell is pretty tame!
I can tell by reading your comment that you've never bought a Dell PC. As someone who has recommended the purchase of many Dell PCs, I can tell you that you're dead wrong.
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
If you define spyware as the realy awful crap that gets downloaded without anyone agreeing to anything through a hole in the OS or the browser (which someone pointed out IS the OS) then it should be treated as a virus and Dell support people should be able to direct people to remove it.
If you define it as adware which comes attached to another program and removal of this adware means violating the EULA of that other program then it seems Dell is merely covering their butts..
...the horse that rode them. That's what it said in the frost prist, anyway.
They aren't scared, this is a corporation - its a question of risk evaluation. There is less risk and lower probable cost in not breaking EULAs, and not advising people to use software that Dell cannot promise won't trash your machine (e.g. Adaware vs. New.net), and which Dell don't even offer support for, than the other option.
fortune -o
One of the possible explanations (and hinted at in the article) is that Del has partnered up with somebody -- a spyware supplier.
If Dell is pre-installing software that includes spyware, and the distribution agreement of that software includes a provision that the spyware not be removed, then giving customers any sort of assistance in removing that same (pre-installed) spyware is the one scenario under which Dell would have reasonable cause to fear a lawsuit.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
Is some loser downloaded xyz-p2p-app... got their one billionth popup, called Dell. Helpful Dell Tech said,"Oh, go download ad-removal-app and run it,"
Nitwhit home user does it, breaks xyz-p2p-app, now home user pissed of because Dell Tech broke xyz-p2p-app, so Dell management makes a call. At the risk of being less helpful we'll avoid looking like we're the problem when the program breaks.
It's lose-lose cause now they look like dumb shits who can't help, where before they looked like dumb-shits who screwed up users programs. We all know that neither is the case. Sadly end user logic is strange and not of this earth.
1) Your analogy is a little flawed... it's more like the car manufacturer/seller saying "Call the DOT" (Although, I'm not sure how a collision equates to spyware... I would suggest maybe the problem with the car would more likely be the removal of dodgy gas that you've put in it from some petrol station that you want to know how to get rid of, but doing so might clean out some dodgy thing the car maker has also put in your tank)
:)
2) The problem with cosying up with a spyware cleaner is that this would then pressure said cleaner to maybe turn a blind eye to Dell's own spyware... then perhaps the spyware removal software wouldn't recognise Dell's software as spyware even if it could be classified as such.
Or am I just being a finicky bastard?
nt
I work in the retail wing of the tech world. The very first thing I recommend to people who complain of slow systems is Ad-Aware, even before I ask how much RAM their computer has, or how fast their processor is. Considering how much crap comes bundled with commonly downloaded software, it usually helps a lot just to run the spyware cleaner. A person who can't tell RAM from Rama can be easily instructed to download a helpful program from a certain site, and told in general terms why it will help. Thankfully, Ad-Aware's pretty easy to run--it even pops up a window offering to do a scan when the install is finished.
For a retail dork, I do a surprising amount of tech support on the job. Assheads that write bloated crap like spyware, and their fellow assheads that tell their employees not to help remove it, make me think I should be paid for doing someone else's damn job.
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
Instead, they approach us instead with their spyware problems and rely on us for support. We have gone through more CD-Rs this year alone on SpyBot, Ad-Aware, and Symantec AV definitions than I think we have ever had before.
Thinking about this whole article though brings up a humorous moment I had with a major computer vendor. We purchased a new machine for our office and the mouse was defective. Not a huge deal, really, as we have hundreds lying around. However, having just spent a lot of money for the system, I figured I'd call them and ask them to ship us a replacement mouse.
The guy on the other end of the phone was harried and rude, and I believe our conversation went something like this:
Major Computer Support Guy: "Ok, so you have the cable plugged in, reinstalled the mouse drivers (it was USB...duh), and tried it on a different machine."
Me: "Yes"
MCSG: "Ok, let em get your mailing address."
Me: "University of Wisconsin Platteville, "
MCSG: "City please."
Me: "Uh, Platteville."
MCSG: "And your state?"
Me: "FUCKING Utah! That's right, the University of Wisconsin Platteville is located in beautiful Utah!"
MCSG: ...
"This food is problematic."
1) format.
2) install linux.
3) PROFIT! Err.. maybe not.
I have had the unfortunate experience of having to deal with d(H)ell tech "support" when my laptop had a hardware failure that was covered under warranty. I am not sure how their alleged tech support department can effectively give a user any meaningful instruction, unless they speak the native language(s) of India. I had a very hard time communicating my situation to them because of the language barrier. Fortunately, they have wised up to this and moved their business customer call centers back to the United States recently. And yes, my laptop came pre-loaded with more crap that it actually took less time to just format than it would to hunt everything down and kill it. The format command is by far the most time saving and effective spyware removal tool for a new d(H)ell. I am not too big a fan of prebuilt computers from those bigbox names, at least with a dell they do not splat stickers all over the fronts of machines like some vendors do. Carefully removing advertising stickers from new computers with solvents is by far more annoying than just getting rid of the software crap.
They are not shipping PCs with spyware on it already, they just aren't telling people how to install programs like ad-aware etc. They don't have any requirement to do so, they support problems with the PCs as they ship them, not with extra programs on them.
Stop making stuff up... where do you get this crap information from?
Wipe Windows off your Dell and put Linux or Unix on it and you are SPYWARE FREE!
Im actually typing in it right now! so, where tha E&%/&%/&%(/ are the instructions to get rid of the $(&(/)%&$%/% spyware? :S
moda fuckas my next laptop will definitelly NOT be a DELL >;(
I work for Bellsouth tech support and we are not allowed to suggest spyware removal tools either, although at times I do because the user cannot surf at all and they threaten to go back to aol. Most of the time I end up recommending they contact their computer manufacturer. I guess sense most people have dells the spyware problem will only be worse.
Understanding is a three-edged sword. -- Kosh Naranek
bullshit bullshit bullshit
.(which will also detect spyware trash if the appropriate checks are ticked.) just to make sure, but guess what... none of it's ever on my computer because i don't go downloading shit for apps. Even if I wanted to I would use a virtual machine p2p bitch box rather than hose my system.
dont install the crap the system won't become bloated. I have three windows systems (all xp...) and none of them are barfing on spyware. I don't install spyware infested filth like kazaa or torrentsearch or whatever else you can come up with. I hit windowsupdate regularly (that's not ok but hitting apt-get, a yum repository, or up2date -fui is???)
I still run very regularly updated adaware and mcafee virusscan enterprise
the reason your linux system is ok is because it doesnt give you the same opportunity to do stupid shit to it that windows does; YET. give it time, it will get there and you will.
Could u either write a piece of software that u either install on your computer, of just have a policy in your Home directory that basically said that any software that was installed, the companies automatically agreed to the agreement which said, "You may not interfere with this computer in a negative way or send information about this computer without notifiying the user each time"? or somethign else that the software wouldn't comply with and then sue them?
It sounds stupid, but basically that's what half of the spyware does to users... just installs itself or forces an install, and starts sending info without u really agreeing???
Tibbon
tibbon.com
* Car manufacturers won't give people instructions on how to fit after market exhausts.
* Mobile phone makers won't guide people through how to fit after market flashing antenna attachments to their phones.
* Apple won't support customers who want to install linux over the top of OSX...
Really... this is predominantely a guy bitching about how Dell won't send people to his website to buy his product (he is, check the article)...
They have no reason to provide support such as this, it's time the consultants should be using to support the Dell Hardware and Dell Software. Let LavaSoft et al handle their own darn support.
Reported several days ago here
Dell (and other OEMs) get discounts on the price of Windows by agreeing with Microsoft that they will take on the burden of customer support. If you got a copy of Windows pre-installed, it most likely says that the OEM, not Microsoft, is responsible for any and all support.
They may not be responsible for all application support issues, but uninstalling a program that is interfering with proper system operation is definitely within their domain.
At work we have a constant battle against Gator on user PCs as it uses deceptive messages and popups on websites to convince users to install. I have found little software that does more to make a user's PC using experience unenjoyable than Gator. Bravo, you've gone above and beyond the call of duty; most spyware simply installs itself and tracks users movements, your software pretends to provide useful functionality on top of being deceptive and displaying your customers' ads instead of the ones that rightfully belong on the site. And on top of all this it makes an already nearly unbearably (wow, alot of -ys) unstable OS (Windows) even more unusable.
Thanks alot, Gator! You've made me look like a PC Repair genius as simply running Ad-Aware on most systems to remove the stinking heap of maggot infested goat dung your software is from a user's PC thereby speeding it up and making it crash less often!
this sig limit is too small to put anything good h
Why don't antivirus makers just build spyware detection into their products? Are they afraid they'll piss off the spyware makers? Good.
Need Free Juniper/NetScreen Support? JuniperForum
What spyware in XP, are you talking about automated error reporting? Or perhaps automatic windows updates.
Actually, Microsoft itself is spyware, if you take your EULA at face value. Microsoft's Automatic Updater does not ask you, but demands that you take whatever is pushed and that your entire system is open to spying. They have used the media player to push this EULA and DRM in general to all versions of their software. DRM, which subjects every file copy to inspection of the file's "owner" is spyware by definition as all files must be checked before copy. Little things, like CPU unique identifiers and Media Player keeping lists of every song and movie you play are trivial parts of Microsoft's Next Generation. Other companies do the same thing as M$ does because DLL hell does not and can not prevent it. Microsoft has made huge holes to screw their users and everyone else has jumped right into the party. None really cares about the user's performance, stability or bandwith so all suffer in the gang bang that is your average Windoze computer on the internet.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Dell doesn't install spyware. The article doesn't say that they do. And you didn't read it. Typical /. moron. And typical moron moderators for making it +5, Informative.
I haven't had much luck dealing with Dell, so it's just as well that you can always get the parts somewhere else. It may end up being more expensive, but at least you know that your orders will be processed and the parts ordered in less than a fortnight. Dell is supposed to be a high-tech company but sometimes you need to send them snail mail before they will acknowledge that there actually was communication.
Did anyone notice that memo was signed "Vader"? Is Dell the Empire now? Will there have to be some sort of alliance of rebels, misfits and furry creatures to bring them low? And how many sequels / prequels will it take?
(Or does this raise doubts about the authenticity of the email?)
I'd love to wipe and reinstall on everyone's computer that come into the shop I work at just because of spyware. The problem is these are the same people that got such-and-such application from their buddy and can't reintall in because they don't have a "real" copy. We can't go around playing copyright police if we want to make money and keep customers.
We end up reinstalling frequently after trying everything else first.
What is your approach to reinstalling? What do you do when people don't have the original media for the software they had? What do you do when they registry is so hosed that you can't get a Windows key out of it and the customer doesn't have the original paper copy?
Typical
if you want "No More Hiroshimas" then I say "You First. No More Pearl Harbors."
Dude... you're gettin' some popups!
Having whored myself to CPQ, HP and IBM (ya im the village bicycle of techsupport)
this is nothing new.. at all three companies the only software we supported was M$ thats its.. 3rd party.. call them..
Example of a Call..
oh? sorry... you REALLY REALLY want our help? cause you waited 45 minutes on hold.. and i actually speak english you can understand.. well.. were Not supposed to.. but for $35 charged to a major credit card i will be authorized for a one time support fee to ATTEMPT to resolve the issue you are having that you described to me
now.. the key words we used.. were ATTEMPT, ONE TIME, Described to Me.
wich means... im going to try to fix it, i really aim.. if i cant and you call back to get someone more experianced coff up another $35. and if during the course of troubleshooting i find out its something else.. coff up another $35
only the opening, closing scripts, hold times, talk times and pay cheque ever changed
The More Knowledge you have the Luckier you Get- J.R. Ewing
then they wouldnt miss a few bux in paying some local geek to clean their system now would they?
-judging another only defines yourself
Why should Dell help people remove spyware that they installed themselves? They should contact whoever produces the spyware removal tool for support. I suppose this opinion comes from someone who works in the tech support industry though.
Dude.. you got spyware... Well, the school system I work for has a contract with Dell. We purchase only Dell PCs for client users and we have found that their tech support department knows as much about their own PCs as I know about giving an arabian camel a root canal. GonzoTech
"Snatching defeat from the mouth of victory on a daily basis."
Another reason to buy a custom PC from your local Mom & Pop PC store.
Local service, REAL support, and zero corporate buffoonery.
I recommend this stuff all day long at MS. It solves most all Windows issues oddly enough. It costs us money to take calls so I take pride in hitting them back by uninstalling it!
This means we do not take callers to download.com or doxdesk.com, nor do we recommend spyware removal programs, nor do we advise callers on the use of spyware removal programs. This includes using phrases "We don't support the removal of spyware, but I use..."
Uhm, of course I could well be wrong as I am not American, but doesn't this last statement actually violate your first ammendment?first post mentioning GNAA!
i got love fo my niggaz
At my call center, nothing was scripted, but there were places that we did not allow the technicians to go, primarily because we did not want to accept the liability for a customer using somebody else's software and making things worse. We supported what we sold, nothing more, although, for a fee, the techs were free to provide the customer with help on non-installation or troubleshooting problems, such as creating a macro or something like that.
Don't be so quick to crap on the tech support people. They are given their limits because their companies have been the victims of too many trigger happy customers and their attornies. I've seen it, I don't like it and I'll bet that nobody who was on my side of the phone likes it either.
I also stopped recommending Dell about a year ago. I had a Dell that stopped working, so I swapped out the perfectly-normal-looking ATX power supply. When I turn on the computer - poof! sparks and smoke. It's not documented _anywhere_ on the Dell website (I checked), but many systems use a nonstandard pinout on a standard ATX connector. Using a normal power supply will burn out the power supply and possibly the motherboard, too. Dell tech support basically told me, "we don't care" when I complained about this. This isn't just ideological - I'd like a computer where fixing it doesn't cause more problems than I started with.
I've had a mixed record with laptops from Dell. One laptop's screen failed last year after about three months of use (and they did replace it). But try getting a wireless minipci card if you didn't get it with a new system. They shuffled me between three departments on the phone, taking about two hours to decide that they finally found the right part number, but it's out of stock. So...helpful. Yeah....
So if you want a company that'll sell you maliciously nonstandard hardware, and keeps a model in stock for about 15 minutes, then Dell's for you...
The memo was sent because the spyware programs are removing keys in the registry that shouldn't be removed, resulting in destabilized Windows OS (well... more destabilized). I have first hand experience of this happening. It has always been Dell's policy not to recommend any 3rd party software utilities other than what shipped with that particular system... not that every tech has/will follow(ed) that.
Not only that, but Dell is a source of Spam email. In fact, they are currently my largest source of spam.
Here's how I know. Whenever I begin any "relationship", or line of communication, with any commercial entity (actually, basically anyone other than close friends), I tell them that my email address is "[entity-name]@[my-real-domain].com". I use a combination of Virtualmail and Procmail for this. Then, I *always* communicate with any entity with the virtual email address corresponding to them, and I *never* use it for any other purpose. It's a hassle finding a good MUA/POP3-client that will support "personalities" in a convenient way to manage the "From:" header, but it's doable. Eudora works OK for this (although it has really annoying bugs, in particular with pathetic multithreading code).
So, this helps me to understand who is selling or leaking or giving or trading (etc) my address to spammers.
I've bought things from Dell for maybe 2 years now. About 3 months ago I began getting spam addressed to "dell@...".
Was it a deliberate thing they did to provide customer email addresses to spammers? Was it an employee smuggling customer data out? Was it an outsource employee doing as much? If smuggled out, what other data went, too? Credit card info? Address info? Hmm...
TechSupport and CustomerService were absolutely clueless, but that's not surprising; although it was funny to see how well they can embarrass themselves.
Conveniently, it's a simple matter to redirect all of my "dell@..." email to something like "csd@dell.com", lol. They can keep it!
Problem solved!
1) I was using the analogy to refer to Dell as the source for support rather than initial production. If only Honda sold car insurance, then we'd be together on this one.
2) You're absolutely right. I was probably reading too much into the commentary pointing to Dell's own anti-spyware and leaping directly to the conclusion they were entirely against the creepy shit. Instead, I should recall the crap that came installed on my old Dell.
Just for the record, apt-get downloads a list of available updates to your computer, and does the comparison locally. Windowsupdate sends a list of what is on your computer to Microsoft, and does the comparison there.
I don't think Dell as a company would care one way or another, but I bet someone from their legal department told them that the company risks litigation if they openly suggest the use of anty-spyware software.
:-)
It is sad, but I don't hate Dell for it. There are plenty of other reasons to hate them...
Or I'm wrong and (conspiracy theory du jour): spyware degrades performance over time, which is good for Dell. First the user thinks he or she got a very fast computer and in the course of several months it starts getting slower. Some users might think it's because the computer is old and that the only solution is to get a new one. More sales for Dell.
Or, (second conspiracy theory): Dell is installing spyware themselves.
Sadly, if any of the above were true, it wouldn't change how I regard that company.
1. Pre-Install Crap on computers
2. Remove the same crap during charged repairs
3. PROFIT!!!!!!!!
And the cycle continues endlessly...especially with horny morons that sit in front of their computer thinking "maybe this link does have real pr0n"
If general public are made aware of the Factory installed spyware, they will simply stop buying Dell.
I would never recommend shelling out for a new prebuilt computer from any manufacturer, but I'll still recommend old business-surplus Dells as rock solid Linux firewall/routers. :o)
He did get modded troll, although only a point. That person has a nasty sense of humor, or should never get mod points again.
It's nothing but crumpled porno and Ayn Rand.
Spyware isnt DELL's problem. It is hte users problem, just like updating your machine with relevant software patches to stop crap like, oh i dunno, spyware, trojans, and viruses, from making their way onto your PC.
/. posting utter SHIT to the front page, untrue, and totally fucking un news worthy. Good job toss pots.
This is absurd, all you people crying at dell over this are more absurd. Get a clue ffs you are all morons!!!
Next, it would cost dell and arm and leg, trying to assist their users in uninfecting their machiens with spy ware and the like. Why should Dell pay for the users incompetance?
Lastly, if your machine has spyware on it, IMO you really have more to worry about than if dell is going to help you clean it. Like if your credit card/netbanking information getting stolen by the spyware and emailed to an attacker.
Yet again
Just to clarify, the posting for this story is misleading and incorrect. Dell is NOT bundling spyware. Whoever posted it didn't RTFA. I should know, I wrote that article. I've asked Timothy to update the headline.
FYI, you don't know how beautiful a feeling it is to have your site on the front page of Slashdot, AND have mod points at the same time. I was soooooo tempted......
Mike Healan
Editor
www.spywareinfo.com
Only on
This is serious, do you know how many businesses each with thousands of employees run Dell computers. Dell's main market is not individuals like you and me, its cooerperates and enterprises, that for exdample order 10,000 PC's/year or something. Now i cant imagine what would happen if such a thing was done with some BIG folks..
The lunatic is in my head
Aluria Spyware Eliminator. Yes, that's Aluria Spyware Eliminator, only $29.99. Click on the "More information" link, which goes to aluriaaffiliates.com, for more information on ordering. Yes, click on that link which has my affiliate id number in it for more information.
Hmmmm....it seems much ado about nothing (increased sales of Aluria Spyware Eliminator aside). If my house has mice should I call the builder?
I do like that the letter was signed by "Vader". I see he's really relaxed his grip, no longer using the honorific "Lord" in his informal communications.
I'm watching you use your Dell!
It is not Dell's responsibility to educate users on safe computing practices. The average user is not a particularly bright individual, and if a company were to attempt to educate all their customers on what to do with their computer after recieving it, you could probably expect the cost of the equipment to double or triple as a result.
Let's not forget the more obvious problems associated with this issue that brought these users to call technical support with a spyware problem in the first place...
I only own one dell, my laptop(latitude lt, if your wondering), and i found their support amazing. I bought the laptop 3rd hand from my boss who bought it at a sale at the university who had originally purchased it. I'd recieved it wiped and installed win98 (its several years old, p200mhz, 64mb of ram...), but unfortunatly i didn't have any of the drivers. The display wouldn't go to the 600x800 that the lcd was(it still wont in dos), and i also didn't have the modem drivers. One of their tech support guys helped me sift through the website for over an hour to find drivers that might work for this laptop that i had bought third hand. That strikes me as standing behind a product well past any sort of waranty or even reasonable expectations. As for this spywayre thing, it seems to me to be a legal thing. Most programs that contain ad/spyware state in ther EULAs that you have to install gator (CLARIA IS SPYWARE!) or gain or whatever. By removing it, you're probably violating those terms and dell doesn't want to be liable. Here's hoping EULAs will be found void in court sometime soon.
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
I have a dell running Linux... I've never had a spyware problem...
Oh, wait. You mean it's the OPERATING SYSTEM that is at fault here, and not the machine?
Oh, wait. You mean that everyone here is flipping out cause Dell won't support users making bad decisions due to an insecure OS?
How is this Dell's fault again? Seriously...
Sig.i>
That was just inserted by the person who submitted the article.
paintball
Or maybe the higher ups at Dell have been toking a few too many with "The Dell Dude"
In a world that is Free and Open, who needs Windows and Gates?
Such is the dry smugness of a Mac user.
Really, this is a big problem, though. Companies seem to be taking more and more liberties with users' computers. I, for one, am disturbed by the recent push towards cataloging each of us in massive databases so they can understand our buying patterns and market goods directly to us. I consider such invasive advertising to be boarding on threatening; it gets my blood up.
Perhaps I'm overreacting, but our capitalist system seems to be changing from one of the free market towards one you might call the "compulsory market." We are being coerced into buying things we don't need to "improve the economy." Screw that, I never see any of those fat corporate profits from the recent productivity increases. It's not just about money, it's about realizing that there are more important things than money and market share and commerce in general. When will advertisers realize that methods like telemarketing and spyware are going too far and pissing off more potential customrers than can be made up by the suckers who pad their bottom line by biting at the hook? We have to protest not only spyware, spam and telemarketing but also firms that associate with known offenders, which Dell is trending perilously close to doing.
Electric Monkey Pants
You would expect Dell to do this. Afterall they have to do something to stay competetive. God knows it's not in building a better product. Instead they use their volume purchasing to cut sweet deals from software and hardware vendors. They always manage to look like a good deal to the average Joe from all thier weaseling, hidden costs and crappy support. Stooping to pre-injecting spyware is only 1 level lower in the hole from which they fester and breed. They call it Dell but we know it better as Hell. tb
The real problem is when we do clear out all spyware, pop-ups, and other crap that drains preformance, we quickly disable it. We either use tools, reg hacks, or msconfig. and it is gone.
Now when we do that to a users computer, especialy a home user. apps no longer work, their taskbar nolonger tells the tempature, gator no longer saves passwords, that talking monkey or pariot is gone, that flag is gone, and the wallpaper dont change anymore. To them, we broke it. It dont work now and it did before.
The real problem is that it takes so much work to educate those users.
My solution, reformat and reinstall. (use any os except the system restore)
Im a gamer, not a grammer major. This post is full of spelling and grammer mistakes.
It doesn't mean jack, surf the web for 5 minutes and you have spyware.
nuff said.
Some of the most insidious spyware that people pick up in their day to day work on the internet has the potential to completely disable internet access using Internet Explorer if it is removed from the system.
Now, I'm not advocating spy-ware, or suggesting that these programs are at all righteous--the developers of that software should be hanged--but it doesn't change the fact that if a company like Dell were to recommend that their users download and install something like Adaware they are getting themselves into a whole mess of follow up problems with inept users.
Any software that can potentially shut down the browser that the vast majority of non-saavy computer users employ everyday probably shouldn't be endorsed by a company like Dell... they would be creating a ton of work for themselves trying to explain which pieces of spy-ware should be removed and quarantined, and which should be dealt with by other means. Also, once you've explained what should be removed, then you have to deal with how to remove the spy-ware that Adaware shouldn't touch. We're talking about lots of man hours, and educational phone calls with inept users.
I think we can all agree that it isn't Dell's job to educate every user that owns a Dell on how they should remove spyware that is potentially going to comprimise their internet access through IE. Most people are just incapable of that level of skill anyway. I know I wouldn't want to walk a sixty year old grandma through all that over the phone.
Let's be realistic.
"We're gonna need a bigger boat." - Jaws
Yeah, you say that it's hinted at in the post, but obviously the aluminum foil in your hat was in your eyes, too. The post didn't say that the article said that Dell was installing spyware. Read it again. He was speculating.
/. moron.
Typical
Dell didn't preinstall spyware. They are not going to recommend tools that randomly delete products off a users system. I can think of quite a few software products that install spyware and will not run without that spyware on the system.
.. well it isn't a good situation for them.
.. over the past weekend I tried the same thing with Gateway .. yikes.
.. their answer? Send it to a local service shop (gateway store), let the computer sit there for 7-10 days before they can look at it.. after they look at it .. it will sit there for another week while the part is shipped in and then sit in a queue until they can install the part and test it .. estimated turn around time? 3 weeks. I'll stick with Dell thank you very much.
So if Dell recommends a product that effectively destroys other applications on the system
<rant>
I still recommend Dell systems. I maintain them for several businesses and I have yet run into a problem with support. Infact, I don't think I ever had to request a supervisor, level 2 support or anything of the like. I state the symptoms, state any diagnostics I did on the system, tell them my results and what appears to be faulty. There have been a few times they requested a few additional tests for me to do just to confirm, but afterwards, a part is shipped out usually next-day air and I install it (or a tech is sent if I cannot address the issue). I can't complain about that. Hehe
I had the problem pinpointed to a specific part of the motherboard
</rant>
Piss poor quality, lowest common denominator parts, keyboards that are all spongy, piss poor support, and business practices that hurt the computer industry. Do us all a favor and boycott dell because anything made by IBM is superior especially laptops.
What it means is, even if a user comes to them with an obvious (simple diagnosis, simple solution) problem such as "I can connect to the Internet but not load any Web sites, and at every boot I get a dialogue about a missing newdot~3.dll", they will not be able to do ANYthing that might encourage the user to remove the offending program or fault, either by directing them to a Web site, pointing the finger where it belongs, recommending a fixit utility, or possibly even directing them to the developer of the offending product (since this would be acknowledging the existance of an unwanted program, which might encourage the user to remove and and possibly violate a software license). In other words, by a reasonable interpretation of the memo it would not even be acceptable to say "Please contact newdotnet support to resolve this issue, their web address is...."
Caveat Emptor is not a business model.
all the spyware shit on it.
Dell is obviously getting paid for all this crap they are installing on your computers.
Until people speak up and then take their business elsewhere they will continue to abuse your ass.
3) factory installed spyware.
Ummm.... where in the article, the letter, ANYWHERE did it say this?
Just because Dell techs aren't allowed to help callers remove spyware (probably to keep Gator and its ilk from suing the pants off of them), doesn't mean that Dell has installed spyware itself. That's a very big and reckless jump you made.
The
I'm an on-site computer technician. Probably 25-33% of my business is fixing spyware/adware-related issues. Out of my four jobs today, running Ad-Aware fully fixed three of them. The fourth also had a virus. (Yet spyware was causing more problems than the virus.)
I say more power to them. Heck, I love Microsoft. Without all the security holes in Windows XP, I wouldn't have much business. (I even got to be on the local TV news as an expert on computers when blaster hit. My recommendation, on the air, was to buy a Mac, or run Linux.)
No, this post is not a troll. MS' bad security is good for me. Dell's new decision is good for me. Heck, anything that is bad for the user is good for me. (Although my PowerBook, which I carry with me to appointments, and tend to pull out at least once per appointment to make notes, or look things up, is probably bad for me. People see that I use a Mac, ask me which is better, and I flat out tell them. I wonder how many ex-clients are using a Mac now, and haven't called me because of it?)
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
The tech pobably knew that your drive was dead. But there's a script to be followed.
The purpose of such scripts is not to help you, but to get you to go away and stop bothering Dell without having to tell you to fsck-off to your face.
And I can understand not supporting spyware removal. Outsourced helpdesk is all about minimising what you are responsible for.
Xix.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
Yes, pre-installed with Internet Exploder that comes with Alexa - MS Spyware...
"Now, just so you know, Ad-Aware is third party software and I am providing it only as a convenience to you. ****** neither endorses nor supports this software."
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
Moderators: Don't you think that the parent might be a pretty good one to mod up? Yes, I thought so too.
Later,
Patrick
Kazaa said that it required Windows 98 or better, so I installed LINUX! No more spyware!
Wh47 d1d j00 541, 31337 15n't t3h r0xor5 ne m0r3???
which acronym are you using?
Customers may not install a anti-spy program but the EULA and the notice tell nothing about installing a very thight firewall :)
No, it keeps "sales" figures "down".
Thankfully for us Cyber Communists Plotting Red Revolution, these guys continue to be as ugly as stupid as their butts (which are very ugly and stupid.)
Ha ha!
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
Now we have a new acronym: _W_TFA.
- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
hilarious as a spectator.... but they have my profound sympathy.
And Yes, I misread slightly the article. I've been having a bad day and this sort of caps it off....
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Yeah, but I, like Mike, blew my points by posting in this discussion.
Do not meddle in the affairs of geeks for they are subtle and quick to anger
LOL.... I have your web sites's address now. I'm going to return the favor when you least expect :P
Only on
A tiny line at the bottom that requires you to click "Read More" and find it.
Most reputable places would update the headline or the beginning of the summary at the least. They're basically accusing Dell of something we hate that they in fact don't do.
This post just reinforces my opinion that all the best posts start at -1, or go to -1 very quickly.
Up with trolls! I want to be ON TEH SPOKE too.
...I refuse to comply with this order on ethical grounds. They can fire my shiny metal ass (I know they won't anyway, hey, tech support people come to ME)
Here's how Dell support works:
If you have a Latitude or an Optiplex you get a much better support experience because these are their high-end business models. Most of my Dell (well when they didnt ship my phone call out to india) support is pretty good because we have a business account and all the fun extended warranty stuff that forces them to kiss our ass.
The home user (Inspiron owners, etc) get the bottom of the barrel support designed to make you jump through every hoop to save money on replacement parts and to deal with the clueless. When I call from work I just say "Yeah this CDROM died, can I get one tomorrow" and we do some chit-chat while he fills in the fields on his computer screen. The next day the drive is here. Trust me, that's not the residential experience at all.
Come on, folks, this is just another thorn Windows users feel regularly.
(OK, Mesquite tree perhaps)
If it makes people consider an alternative, it has an upside..
I also feel Dell is covering their ass, and rightly so.
Google and even MS search provides tons of links to spyware removal sites.
Short of kneecapping spyware and virii writers (same thing in my book) it will just get worse.
Misleading and incorrect? on Slashdot? Yeah, so what else is new?
I think it was pretty obvious that Alien54 was just being cynical and stupid when he said "not only will [your Dell] probably come preloaded with spyware..." And that comment tainted the whole article. It's the Slashdot editor's job to avoid that, but I guess Slashdot doesn't care too much about accuracy.
If I were still working helldesk my reply would be something along the lines of "Sorry sir, Dell inc. has advised me I am not able to help you with removal of spyware, and this includes reccomending such programs as AdAware to you."
Then again, I liked to stir sh*t up, and stuff like this was a common occurance to me (I really wonder how many of my customers tried linux or got off AOL b/c of me)
Amen to that. I tried it once or twice, the customer just goes to another shop who doesn't care (like most).
What is your approach to reinstalling?
If we don't expect to be able to fix the problem in less than 2 hours, we recommend a reload. If the system is older than one of used systems we sell (ex-government systems supplied to us), we recommend they just purchase a used system.
What do you do when people don't have the original media for the software they had?
We keep a catalogue of common applications on hand and use them when need be.
What do you do when they registry is so hosed that you can't get a Windows key out of it and the customer doesn't have the original paper copy?
In terms of CD keys in general, we use their original ones when its convenient, otherwise we just use our "shop" key. Although its becoming increasingly difficult as newer software requires activation (ie: Windows XP, Norton AntiVirus 2004, etc).
I emailed Dell tech support about my mouse not working. Received a reply the next day that a new mouse had been sent. I received the new mouse a day later, brand new and worked perfectly.
I email Dell tech support about my CD-ROM drive not working. Received a reply the next day with a list of things to try in order to fix it. I email them again saying their solutions didn't work, they say they are sending a replacement drive. New drive comes in a box with a prepaid shipping label. I install the new drive and return the defective drive using the box and shipping label.
Both the mouse and the drive work fine to this day.
The article says:
Since when does copyright protect the "right" to restrict people from removing information? I would think ripping an unwanted page out of a book and throwing it away would be unquestionably fair use.What are we going to have next? Is McDonald's tell us not to remove the pickles on their hamburgers because they have an agreement with some unknown pickle vendor?
All data is speech. All speech is Free.
I have but three questions.
At what point does "cost cutting" (sometimes aka "corporate greed") go from being "bad" to "acceptable" or even "good?"
Second question: As Microsoft Windows OSs are literally 3rd party software, does this memo (if authentic) indicate that Dell will stop supporting Windows or any other Microsoft OS?
Third and final question: Would or does this memo prevent a tech from telling a customer something along the lines of "I'm sorry [sir/ma'am], but it's company policy that we are not to recommend spyware removal tools, such as AdAware. Even if I wanted to, I could not tell you to visit lavasoftusa.com or advise you to install and run that program. I am sorry again, but it's company policy that we are not allowed to inform or advise you of such things."
~U.P.
Eat the Path.
.... when I asked if if he would help me delete some unwanted programs from my computer!
I don't agree with Dell and other people saying that Ad-Aware and or Spybot: S&D can screw up IE. It's people who mess around with settings and or install other kinds of crap that screws up IE in the first place.
I've been running Ad-Aware and SB: S&D for years now and it's never yet screwed up ANYONES IE installation, even with online associates of mine or the occasional time I go over to some of my relatives houses to fix their computer(s) because their young kids download all kinds of crap that installs the spyware in the first place, only for me to find that the computer had over 300+ spyware items found!
As to whethr Dells installing spyware? Doesn't suprise me one bit - Dell strikes me the same way HP and Compaq do - they mass produce PC's the same way they do toasters, massive amounts of pc's that may only last 1-2 years before your toaster and or PC breaks down (whicever comes first).
And people wonder why some of us prefer going to LOCAL computer stores to buy computers prebuilt by them with quality motherboards and or parts or just buying everything yourself and assembling it..
You must master your joystick like a fisherman masters bait! - Gimpy
Why not save themselves tons of such trouble from their customers, and negotiate a licensing deal with Ad-Aware or Spybot or someone decent, to include spyware-removal software on these Dell consumer systems? Perhaps set to run automagically along with the other regularly-scheduled system maintenance tools. I'm sure the spyware-removal outfits could use the revenue, and it would save Dell piles of bad press, not to mention the support costs for dealing with customers who (not knowing any better) assume their spyware-infested Dell machine is broken and that it's Dell's fault.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
your on the spoke?
Okay, so how about if (as I suggest above) Dell were to ship consumer systems preloaded with spyware-removal tools, and an EULA that says something to the effect of "installing any program that includes a component that our system maintenance wizard removes, is in violation of the terms of service for this machine". IOW, put the onus of either being well-behaved or "in violation" on the spyware-bearing applications.
As to the spyware's host app's EULA of "you can't remove part without removing all", isn't that kinda like an EULA saying "You may not read this book unless you agree to read ALL the pages", or "You may not watch this television program unless you agree to watch ALL the commercials"?? Even tho Dell is just covering their legal asses, I seriously doubt any such EULA would hold up in court anyway. (Anyone have contrary information?)
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Am I obligated to help you clean them if you step in shit?
If you buy a computer and you put shit (as in brown) on your computer, no sane person is going to expect the manufacturer to help you wipe the shit (as in brown) off your computer. If you buy a computer and you put shit (as in spyware) on your computer, it doesn't make any sense to expect the manufacturer help you clean the shit (as in spyware) off your computer either.
paintball
But who cares, I'm pretty sure there's no spyware on it when I remove Red Hat 9, CD 3 and reboot :)
Woefdram, l'apprenti sorcier
Ok, so I'm older and wiser now, and certainly capable of building my own system. Yes, the proprietary power supply thing makes no sense, and the machines are expensive. Would I buy another Dell? No. Would I recommend one to a new user? Yes. Fewer than half of my fellow students ever open their machines, and I go to an engineering school. Dell sells computers for the masses, and in my opinion they do a good job of it
I just bought a new computer through Dell Canada at the end of October. The first thing I did, after installing ZoneAlarm and Opera, was to prune the System Startup with msconfig. One of the files that I didn't recognise was DSentry.exe ( DVDSentry). When I looked it up at pacs-portal, it was described so:
"Anti-spyware from Dell. Seems that after Dell found out certain applications being installed from DVD's would report back information about what customers were watching, they decided to implement an anti-spyware service. Run manually before installation starts".
So I expect that either the memo only refers to Dell US, and we Canadians are still safe, or they're just covering themselves legally by not mentioning specific sites.
"Omnia quia sunt, umbra sunt."
I work tech support, and we used to recommend ad-aware all the time. Then we started noticing it botching removals left and right, leaving systems worse off than they were before. The new policy is "There's a product called ad-aware you could try. Use it at your own risk." It's completely understandable for Dell to not allow their techs to even say that, because as anyone who has ever worked tech support will tell you, users do not understand the concept of cause and effect, and they certainly don't listen. Every now and then, one of our techs will accidentally mention ad-aware or something like it in a context that doesn't strongly imply that using it is dangerous. Usually nothing happens. One guy got unlucky, and the user's hard drive crashed the next day. We made him do the data recovery anyway, since from the perspective of the user, it was his fault, and it's difficult to protect him when he recommended a product that's known to occasionally screw up systems. If their hard drive had crashed after he recommended something on the okay list, we'd have backed him up.
The critical thing to remember is that users have a tendency to be paranoid, stupid, and dishonest as long as they're on the phone with tech support. You can save yourself a world of pain by not giving them any excuse to blame their mistakes on you. Maybe it's not nice that Dell won't help these people, but it's good business sense.
Note: I am not saying that ad-aware or any other anti-spyware program is bug-ridden and dangerous by itself. What I'm referring to is the nasty habit of spyware to be designed in such a way as to make it very difficult to completely remove, and incomplete removal results in Bad Things happening. This is why if someone has spyware that won't uninstall, we take them through manual removal. It may be tedious, but we know it works. Since we have documentation for that, the user can't blame us if they screw it up.
WARNING: there is a trojan on your
... that just tells me that they recognize you as a sad geek with no self-respect. Not necessarily saying you are, just saying that's what they think of you. "Bah, he doesn't have anything better to do with his time, anyway."
Let me put this in perspective:
- if a car engineer lived next door, would they call him every month to fix their car for free? Nope.
- if an electronics engineer lived next door, would they call him every month to repair their TV for free? Nope.
- if a plumber lived next door, would they call him every month to unclog their toilet for free? Nope.
- if a skilled carpenter lived next door, would they call him every month to fix some piece of furniture for free? Nope.
Why? Basically because they have more respect for that plumber than for you. They can understand that:
1. Plumbing is real work, and it deserves compensation. On the other hand they likely see you not as an "expert", but rather as "bah, even kids know this stuff. If we only had a 10 year old, we'd ask him instead."
2. They can understand that the plumber has better stuff to do with his time. Like, dunno, grab a can of beer and watch the football game. Whereas what they think of you is more likely the exact opposite "some sad geek who surely has nothing to do with his time anyway."
3. Also because that plumber has enough self-respect to say "no". Whereas you seems to measure your worth by how much other people abused your time. Well, keep flattering yourself, and I'm sure they'll be more than happy to take advantage of you. Because that's all it is: taking advantage of someone who can't say no.
So, dunno, personally I'd rather be know as the "bad" guy who will _not_ fix your computer. (Well, not unless you're willing to pay my consultant fee.)
I don't give a flying ____ (sexual intercourse) if some random neighbour considers me an expert or not. What really matter is if my boss considers me an expert.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
You must work for ARN.NET
Definitely seconded. Most people who don't or haven't worked in tech support don't get this. I've actually had only mild aquaintances actually ring up for computer help - the moment I got in from work. I've even had one person ring up with a problem with getting pictures from a mobile phone they bought that day. Hello? Try calling the people you bought it from, dammit!
Would you ring up a solicitor out of the blue, only knowing someone who knows them, expecting free legal advice? I think not. And don't even get me started on people not even reading what's on the damn screen on front of them. Once word gets out that you know about PCs, people will start ringing, or trying to collar you to talk about PCs etc. People may label you mean for putting your foot down, but it's your free time they're wasting. (rant mode off).
Wish I had mod points today :|
I received special needs funding and i was forced to get a Dell computer, which was fine once I completely wiped the hard drive.
I don't know why it was necesarry to go with Dell; Perhaps some kind of deal between my asessment agency and dell? It certainly cost a bomb.
I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.
Been there, done that. Not because I didn't know anything about computers, but because I worked as tech support for a computer company that sold computers to home users and the company didn't give a crap if problems were fixed. The managers of the call centre division in fact encouraged us to take as many calls as possible. You got whinged at if you didn't hit a certain number of calls taken, though in actual fact it was such a rubbish job I didn't care at all if they sacked me, which was strangely liberating, so the daily 'please hit these call stats' mails were only vaguely irritating. There was absolutely no incentive at all to fix problems at all.
And then there was the joy of getting PCs recalled. If it did seems to us that a PC needed recalling, we had to convince once of a group of people who were just as pissed off as we were, only it was in their interests not to accept returns. We actually had a substitute for the infamous 'reboot' which was 'rebuild'. The users had to run the rebuild disc to completely reload their HD before a return would be considered, even if you'd just bought the PC. And the catch is that unless you bought the extended warranty, you didn't get one and had to pay about 40 to get the disc! We also took calls from both the normal and extended warrantee lines, the only difference being that calls cost up to one pound a minute on the normal line and that customers were therefore more pissed off. Often it's not that the techs can't help, it's just that if they get managment coming down on them if they do anything other than get the caller off the phone as quick as they can, problem solved or not.
Is this before after you discovered 'her' aim username was 'Ladyboy22'?
If you are going to recommend a computer brand to someone who isn't exactly John Carmack, and you're worried about being permanent technical support for them, what with all the PC manufacturers cutting corners everywhere possible to stay competitive, for god's sake (and yours) get them to buy a Mac.
It's been a while since I bought a brand name PC, but I have never felt like I ever had even a modicum of support from even the bigger guys (Dell etc.), and it sounds as though the situation has gotten worse.
I mean warranties voiding because you install software on your computer? That's like a car warranty voiding because you drove it.
Recently a 10 month old iBook had its backlight burn out, meaning the LCD was *extremely* hard to use, one call to Apple, 10 minutes on the phone, the next day a courier arrived, took it away and three days later it came back fixed. 4 days, and this is not in mainland UK, this is on Jersey (small island, New Jersey named after).
Contrast this to my friends notebook which was a Time, his backlight went a couple months later, it was only 5 months old, all within warranty, it took him so many phone calls and TWO AND A HALF MONTHS to get it back.
I also had a Powerbook arrive with a faulty earphone socket, three days later it came back fixed (replaced mainboard apparently, they rang me and told me what was wrong with it before they sent it back).
I trust Apple to fix my beautiful machines quickly and properly, and they do.
This sig has been deprecated.
.. you insensitive clod!
Along with your award winning service, Dell still offers completely uncomprehendable award winning support in explaining absolutely nothing when it comes to problems on your laptop or PC! Check out the latest snippet from a real life Dell support email fresh with helpfulness! NOTE: The problem which I am trying have resolved is that in either Redhat 9 or Windows XP, my mouse will shoot off to one of the corners of the screen and will freeze there. As this happens in both OSes, it is my thought that something along the lines of hardware is having a problem. Dell's first email: "Dear Mr. Feller, Thank you for contacting Dell eSupport and Services (ESS). We appreciate the opportunity to assist you. I apologize for the inconvenience you may be experiencing due to issues with your system and I assure you it is our hope that you have a positive experience with our company. Sir, according to Dell policy and procedures we donot support dual boot process so please revert back to the factory defaults of the system so that I can further troubleshoot the issue. I apologize for the inconvenience caused. Thank you again for choosing Dell." My first response: "Dear Customer Service Representative, I am unclear how the issue that the laptop is currently setup to be dual boot affects the ability of the computer to use the USB mouse, touch pad, or pencil mouse correctly. As the ability to setup the laptop to dual boot is merely a setup of hard drive's partitions and boot sector, there should be no baring whatsoever on the performance of the built-in mice. I would appreciate some information as to how the OS setup on the laptop affects the mouse performance and if reverted back to the original Windows XP setup, what steps is Dell willing to take to return the laptop to the original factory performance if said factory configuration proves to be ineffective in restoring mouse functionality." Sheesh, they definitely like to put the barrel of the gun to their foot before they pull the trigger.
Most likely because some companies - my old one included - take that as a training issue. Not a tech support issue - there's no actual fault involved.
There is a rule somewhere that says "if you tell someone to do something illegal (and especially if you tell them how), it could be argued that you are at fault. In this case, it could be argued by e.g. the makers of that Dell telling someone to use a spyware removal tool (and therefore violating the EULA on the spyware supported software which may well be illegal) makes Dell in some way liable for the illegal act.
Given the sue-happy society we live in today, this is even more likely.
I Norton and other virus companies cared about customers they would include spyware in their definition of virus. Or at least add a bog checkbox on the virus scan page that says "remove spyware".
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
At least if my Maxtor experience is any indication.
:). Happy exploring.
After it's totally toast you might want to go through the effort to open the drive if it's out of warranty an not worth sending back. It'll have a nice little groove drawn on it, from the time of the crying, which follows the clicking.
I'd bet the information you're getting is off the second FAT. After you've grabbed the data you want, you may wish to perform a surface test
Even worse, they call you a "computer wiz," despite the fact that you're only mildly competant. If you can install RAM, then you must know how to fix any and every problem that can be encountered on any computer. Install anti-viral software, and next time their friend's computer isn't working (for any reason), you're on call. Make an extremely basic home page, and you'll get recommended to local businesses.
...At least that's been my experience.
GL
I think theres a very simple solution to this. Why dosn't Dell simply tell people that to remove spyware, download a program such as Ad-Aware but when telling them this, inform them that they may be violating a EULA agreement between the person and the company that made the software? This way they would cover themselves legally. So not only will they be helping their customers with spyware problems and increasing the rating of its technical support staff, but they are also covering themselves legally by warning the user that they may be braking a legal agreement and may be sued for it. Simple
.. and go down the G5 PowerPC route instead. This is my story of the nightmare that is Dell Hell:
Dell's Labryinth of Departments
and the nightmware that is technical support when trying to upgrade my previous Dell machine was just surreal.
We have a neighbor who is a vet, and when she comes over, she gives the kitties a free fifteen-second checkover while scritching their heads. There have been times when the older kitty has not looked well, and, after much deliberation, we've asked her for a second opinion.
When Blaster came out, it hit their computer, and I offered to get rid of it, as well as patch up their machine to the latest Service Pack, et al. It was our way of thanks for some much-welcomed advice about the cats. To their credit, they haven't asked for any further help, but it's available, but it needed, I will avail myself again.
There are some professions where you are the "walking free advice", and you get to respect that when you meet a professional 'cousin'. It's also a hallmark of good friends to ask for that help sparingly.
Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
If you know what spyware is, you know how to remove it. If you have no idea it's there or what it does, it's unlikely to impact upon you in any way whatsoever, is it? Before modding me down, think back to when YOU first learnt about spyware.
Hmmm.
...you're getting spyware!
Dell technicians can and will install Spybot or Adaware rather than going through a whole reinstall. Remember that there are multiple divisions of Dell Tech Support and that there are multiple sites where techs are located. Just because a "memo" (which is just a glorified email) is sent out doesn't mean it's officially the stance of Dell. Remember, these techs want off the phones as quickly as possible and installing Spybot is much faster than a reinstall. I happen to know "official" support policy and currently it doesn't say anything about any Spyware removal software, but Dell's official stance on reccomending third-party software is to say "This program and this program are both good for this kind of thing" rather than endorse just one.
Ive been a desktop/server support person for 10-12 years and always was a Wintel user. At the end of 2002, I was sick of all the problems which had to be readily repaired on my 98/xp/2000 machines at home. Short of a w2k proliant server for storage, all required ENTIRELY too much upkeep, patching, cleaning and maintenance. I have since purchased a DP Macintosh G4 and although its a lot more expensive than a PC, its flawless, and it runs all I need it to run (Video editing, email, web, office apps) 24/7. I now, too, recommend iMacs or Powerbooks if people ask. For the record, my Dell p3 733 is still running fine, I have never had an issue with Dell's tech support. I just can't stand Microsoft's security holes and instability.
For the record, I still do have a 1 Pentium III class machine for whatever I cannot run on the max with OS X.
if u r smart enuf 2 d/l then u r smart enuf 2 remove
This is great, especially now that they've moved their tech support operations back to the US.
I used to not be able to understand the operators through their thick accents, and hang up. Now I can actually understand tech support saying "sorry, we don't support that" and then hanging up on me.
Actually, if slashdot actually starting editing submissions for accuracy, I suspect they would become liable to lawsuits for whatever inaccuracies slip through. Often (in the US) you can only be sued for having a problem when you acknowledge the problem and try to fix it.
I thought that tech support was supposed to be top-notch for these closed-source, commercial operating systems.
So what can a user do with their machine, when it is bound to get infected by viruses or spyware and adware?
All the more reason to stick someone with a preconfigured Linux box that they can't muck up by installing Gator.
This makes sense to me. Dell provides OEM support for the hardware and software they sell you pre-loaded on the computer, and nothing else. There is no reason, aside from just being nice, for Dell to waste resources helping people fix problems caused by third party software. Doing so will drastically increase the cost of Dell's systems-after all, walking a cluless luser through removing multiple adware programs can easily eat up fifteen minutes or more of time in uninstall routines, reboots, and checking to see if it worked. After a few tens-of-thousands of support calls from people like my mom, the costs will really add up-especially now that the phone techs are Americans (Yay!).
To make it really obvious, change the type of software causing the problem from spyware to Adobe Photoshop (I'm not insulting Photoship, this is *hypothetical*). Would you expect Dell to support problems caused by a Photoshop installation?
If Dell customers want support for this sort of thing, they should either pay Dell more money for extended support, or just hire a local computer support service to do the work.
Just wear the appropriate shirt when you visit your relatives.
I've noticed that after installing Microsoft Products, "DoubleClick" spyware always seems to reappears. Perhaps spyware is installed with the installation of XP, and Microsoft has pressured Dell to help prevent it's detection and removal. I don't think that this is too farfetched -- Microsoft has been getting more and more "intrusive" with their software. I try not to use Microsoft Office products ever since I found out they embed your private information in every document you create (they also used to embed the MAC address of your network card in your documents -- may be they still do(?)). The EULA for MS Media Player gives Microsoft the right to modify your hard disk. We know that microsoft has a history of pressuring OEMs and VARs, so maybe this is the source of Dell's strange protectiveness of spyware. I've always reccommended dell to my clients, but lately, when I've installed systems, I've found I have to "clean them up" (i.e remove spyware, remove memory-resident programs that are loaded at startup, etc...) to get acceptable performance. These are new systems with XP home and XP Pro.
I would not buy a new Dell anyway. I might buy one used, but the new ones are generally a rip-off. You can build a better machine yourself with a little research.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
My brother owns a gateway among other machines, had issues with it and had installed tons of software like photoshop. He warranteed it 3 different times with no voided warranty issues.
Ha ha, more of the same M$ fanboy bullshit. I get one or two posts like that per post I make. Fanboy of M$ paid Steve Barkto style shadow, Microsoft is full of losers.
I also work as tech support to family and friends and even my roommates (as well as doing it as a semi-living). I agree, it is a pain in the ass, but I've found that most people will try and pay you somehow (slip you some cash or make dinner and importantly, give you a ride home). This being said, I did some on call work for a place downtown and when I first started working there, they had a few imacs (never really a problem except for one tangerine 333 that had a problem reseating the logic board right so the cdrom drawer wouldn't be screwy, but it's fixed now) and 5 dells and a Compaq (which was one of the worst machines I ever dealt with. Just nasty. When the lady who had to use it was buying a computer and asked me what to get, I told her to get a Mac. She bought a Dell and had no end of problems with it) with various version of windows (the server was 95, and the rest were ME (ew), 98, and XP Pro). The guy who set up the network was apparently on crack and it was never set up right so when I was brought in I explained that to them (and that they needed to replace the server with a newer nicer machine (like a Mac!) and that for me to fix it I would need to come in on a saturday when no one was around and fix the complete problem. They were cheapasses and decided to not do that but call me when small things went wrong. Well, at one point the server was old and dead (and it was used as a main machine for the head of accounting, can you believe it?) but *I* got blamed for it and they never called me again. I told them there was a problem, I told them how to fix it, they skimp and I pay for it in the long run. What's the point here? Tech support sucks. And I had a nasty Dell Tech experience, I bought a p3 600 when it was a brand new machine. I had problems that were related to the motherbpard but I had to arm wrestle them to replace the machine and their stance? "We just won't do that". And they sent a tech to replace my videocard. After that I just dealt with stuff myself. Now I wanna replace my power supply but I have to check that pinout problem. I can't wait to get a nice new g5 someday.
- if a car engineer lived next door, would they call him every month to fix their car for free? Nope.
- if an electronics engineer lived next door, would they call him every month to repair their TV for free? Nope.
- if a plumber lived next door, would they call him every month to unclog their toilet for free? Nope.
- if a skilled carpenter lived next door, would they call him every month to fix some piece of furniture for free? Nope.
Why? Basically because they have more respect for that plumber than for you. They can understand that:
1. Plumbing is real work, and it deserves compensation. On the other hand they likely see you not as an "expert", but rather as "bah, even kids know this stuff. If we only had a 10 year old, we'd ask him instead."
2. They can understand that the plumber has better stuff to do with his time. Like, dunno, grab a can of beer and watch the football game. Whereas what they think of you is more likely the exact opposite "some sad geek who surely has nothing to do with his time anyway."
3. Also because that plumber has enough self-respect to say "no". Whereas you seems to measure your worth by how much other people abused your time. Well, keep flattering yourself, and I'm sure they'll be more than happy to take advantage of you. Because that's all it is: taking advantage of someone who can't say no.
So, dunno, personally I'd rather be know as the "bad" guy who will _not_ fix your computer. (Well, not unless you're willing to pay my consultant fee.)
I don't give a flying ____ (sexual intercourse) if some random neighbour considers me an expert or not. What really matter is if my boss considers me an expert.
--------------
Well, you did put it in *a* perspective, but not the right one. The only way your perspective is correct is if you are a computer repair person by trade. If not, then you do it as a hobby.
Look at it like this:
I work on my own cars. If a neighbor knew this, and asked me to have a look at his car because it was making a weird noise and thought I might be able to help, I would. And I wouldn't charge him. If it was some kind of repair that would take time and effort, I might say "I can fix that, but it would take some time - you provide the pizza and beer."
If I was into carpentry, and someone asked me to do something simple, I would. If it was something more extensive, I would tell them that I could give them an estimate on how much it would cost to fix.
Computers are a hobby as much as they are a profession. People enjoy their hobbies, and like to help others. There is a line where it becomes a job, and you should be compensated for it. If someone asked me to build a computer for them, I would, and I would tell them that I would do it for $50 over cost (or whatever I wanted to charge). Same thing for repairing. I'd look at it for free, and if it was some easy fix, I'd fix it for free. If it was something that required more time, I'd tell them so, and that it might cost them some money. It isn't that difficult, you don't have to be a dick about it.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
i upgraded my operating system to win98 (illegally i might add) and they still gave me free hardware when stuff broke (cd-rom twice, keyboard once, monitor twice). when looking up my system, they would see that it was win95 when i got it, but when i called, i told them it was win98 (this was years ago). i can even still continue to call tech support for various problems, but that happens less and less because much less of my computer is actually original parts. the original hard drive now resides in my linux box. the monitor is dead (had to buy one because my warranty was up, but i have lifetime phone support), the ram is gone and replaced with newer bigger ram, the processor is sitting in the box that the new one came in. the floppy is gone because i had to alter my case for my new cdrom drive since gateway's sucked, and then the burner. i think the only things left that are original are the case (but it's pretty altered) and the motherboard.
please me, have no regrets.
I work as a tech for best buy and even new compaqs and hps come with spyware, however some of it is required to run certain things, like the free games... That is most likely the reason why dell says it can conflict with license agreements. If it is removed, the software that requires it will stop running...
If some moron installs spyware, why should Dell waste its time telling him (or her) how to fix it?!
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
In the eyes of most people, you are just as liable for making a recommendation as you are just building the PC. Unless you want to put up with stupid people crap just stay out of the picture.
There was a poster above who stated that once you put your hands on a PC, people tend to think that it is your problem, and nothing they could have done could have messed up the computer. I will add to that that once you lend your opinion about a computer for some reason people find you responsible for what happens to it - what sort of shitty deal they got, how bad the service is...
This isn't even vaguely true. This past thanksgiving, I helped an aunt (1) install the software to get a PocketPC device to connect to her Windows98 machine[1], and (2) fix her kitchen plumbing, which was leaking.
Furthermore, a few years back I had a next-door neighbor who was a contractor; he helped me install in-ground irrigation and lent me his tractor on the occasion that I needed it.
This strange condition is called "being helpful", and quite a few good humans suffer from it.
[1] This was the singlemost unpleasant computer-related experience I've ever encountered, aside from having to fix a corrupt ext2 superblock a few years back. It took me an hour of installing drivers, rebooting, uninstalling drivers and *reinstalling* drivers -- all of these numerous times -- before I could get it it work. A PocketPC device... a Windows 98 computer... two Microsoft products.. come on!
My Inspiron 8200 came with a "call home" app from dell that kept trying to get through the proxy, I would get a password dialog twice a day or so. No uninstaller, no informative dialog. I had to find the app and rip it out manually.
There's nothing idiot about that. If Dell sells software with their computers that performs poorly, gets screwed over and then they can't fix it, well, Dell sucks. Dell IS a computer handyman and that's why people pay the Dell premium. About ten years ago, their tech support was clueful and the reputation has carried them to this day, but it's been going away. It's just another cost of business with Microsoft.
When Dell's reputation hit's the toilet because of Microsoft, Microsoft will be finished. People are turning to the latest and greatest M$ junk to avoid the plauge of viruses, worms and spyware that are making their computing a misserable eXPerience. Dell is the first choice of coporate drones and the last hope for people let down by M$ junk but both classes of purchasers are dissapointed. As the word gets out that the latest and greatest from Microsoft, configured by the best M$ toadies does not work, people are understanding that Microsoft will never meet their needs.
Dell is going to be just another dumb company that did not get free software till way late in the game because they put their own short term interests above their customer's long term interests. Anyone who recomends Microsoft for real work is screwing their customer big time.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
AOL is testing spyware removal software for bundling with their service. So once it's released, your Dell (which includes AOL) will come preinstalled with spyware removal software.
Yeah, just like all the newspapers that get sued for the inaccuracies that they print. Oh wait, that doesn't seem to happen. They just print retractions and corrections. Maybe you should have posted as "anonymous idiot".
Me too!
I'll support someone using Win95 or Win98, as long as they aren't connected to the net. After that the EULAs get too hairy for me, and I won't deal with them.
I would not recomend anything for a client that I would not do myself. If a cliend does not mind monthly wipe and reloads, they can have M$ connected to the internet. I hate building M$ boxes and don't do it for myslef. All the stupid "I agree" buttons, reboots and EULAs that give M$ Complete control of what's installed on your computer along with inspection rights, aka total spyware, and force DRM really are as bad as it gets.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Slightly?? You made Dell out to be a spyware loading evil empire! Admittedly, it would have been nice if Timothy would have done a little fact-checking (like just reading the article). Of course, expecting anything beyond just slapping a headline on a submission is probably asking too much. Heck, I'm surprised that he even took the effort to post the correction to your mistake.
I picked up a trick my doctor told me about when we were comparing the "free help for strangers" issue.
You: "I'm a [computer-related-job-title]"
Them: "Really! Well I've got this problem, [blah blah blah]..."
You: "Gee, I'm glad I didn't tell you I'm a proctologist!"
Since Microsoft fully integrated IE into the
...
OS is when. When Borg Bill told the judge that
it was not possible to remove (totally?) IE from
WinDoze. That's when !!
Whenever Dell stops shipping their computers/
laptops with "viral" WinDoze, and I am not forced
to pay the "Microsucks tax" is when I would
consider buying another Dell product.
IMHO, the Palladium/TCI/Phenoex non-BIOS will
come first. Switch to OpenBoot and a Mac,
instead
I stopped building/buying machine for people/companies years ago. Now I just tell them "I don't do the hardware anymore. Go to Dell.com, buy a refurbished machine with a 3yr on-site support contract. If you have any problems with it, they're tech support will help you ("Dell Support is Free, I'm Not") and will replace anything that breaks the next day.
It frees up my time for doing more useful things than debugging their modems and stuff.
i'm happy to help my friends and family if they get a Mac, but i tell them that if they get a PC, their on their own...and, no, i don't feel bad about it, you can lead a horse to water, and all that...
Does dell supply support on using microsoft word or does the user have to call microsoft? Will dell supply support for Half Life 2 or Doom 3?
The spyware removal software is not dell software, they shouldn't have to tell people to download it or how to use it. Its not their responsibility.
I've had very good results with Dell, but I had to take the oddity of Dell boxes in general into account. For example, someone mentioned oddball power supplies, check. As well, my OptiPlexes (we have about a dozen) will *not* take a 3rd party hard drive. Otherwise, they are good performing, reliable, and *cheap* boxes. Wipe XP off them, stick on Win2k, and you have a first class corporate box for $300 Cdn (no kidding - i just bought 10, w/Celery 2.0ghz, 256 mb, 40gig, CD ROM, nic, shitty onboard video and sound - $300!!! - even got an optical mouse!)
As long as you know how to manipulate your support droid when you call in, you can get results. I was able to get a hard drive fedexed to me in 24 hours after I had one fail - no problem. Over all, Dell has worked out fine for our company and the bean counter is happy because we got to rig up over a hundred guys for about $500-600 Cdn a piece (Dimension's w/17" monitor)
"This article has been slashdotted. I'd like to clarify that the posting at slashdot is misleading, suggesting that Dell itself is installing spyware. That is not the case at all and please don't be confused into believing that. Dell is absolutely NOT bundling spyware on their PCs."
Since she wants the computer to be faster, tell her all the rage is liquid nitrogen cooling ... and pour some on the mb.
Snap crackle pop.
...I'd treat them the same as the ones I build: step one is to repartition and install the OS the way I want it. Spyware? what spyware?
That's why you never trust a pre-installed OS.
Whenever I buy a new machine the first thing I do is wipe the hard drive clean.
Bring your dirty laundry to your aunt's house on Christmas day and ask her to wash it for you. If she refuses, remind her of how you took your time to fix her computer for her on Thanksgiving.
I am not a raving Dell fan, but for x86 boxen, I recommend Dell to any business that doesn't have a dedicated IT staff. Why? Because at least their business-line of machines comes with decent support. I heartily concur with the other people who have pointed out that home users don't get anything like that level of support. But think about it. The home market is all about cut-throat pricing. Consumers want 7.0 Gigahertz Pentium Sevens for $299.99, with a 24" flat panel TFT. Something's gotta give. Got it? Thus the evil of whitebox clones, which are a bad idea for anyone who is not a techie. I feel bad for my relatives, who own crappy clones. No I don't give out much free tech support, but I do try to be human about it. When someone is obviously suffering, and it would take me a minute to help them, I help them. Wouldn't you all? I got trapped into the never ending spiral of supporting the entire extended family when they had problems with their clones, and I ended up telling them to give up and go Mac, or get a Dell.
For anyone with the slightest interest in leaving the x86 PC world, I urged them to go Mac. They would end up spending more money up front on their stuff, and they would have fewer software choices, but hopefully, they basic system would just plain work. I know enough about Macs to know they have problems too, some of which require extreme black vodoo to unravel. So they aren't perfect. And neither is Dell. But at least Dell's latest round of black boxen are reasonably well put together, fast, and price-competitive in the business market. When I have something dead, I phone them, and they send along replacements. I tend to be forceful, factual, and directive (giving orders, and making strong suggestions) rather than sitting back and telling tech-support to figure it out for me. That works for me. But my family members who own dells who are not as technically savvy, Dell tech support gets their problems solved too. Frankly, I am glad Dell does this ugly thankless task for me, and I am willing to tell people to buy a Dell, so they can handle it. It's customer service people, and it's an ugly world. Phone support techs, you who are about to go insane trying to help people who have a hard time plugging things in, and turning them on, I salute you.
WPostma/Franciscan
Depends. Does RealOne Player count as spyware?
The only reason we have the rights we have is that people just like us died to gain those rights. -- Cheerio Boy
How fast we proceed down the rathole...
The original post left of the small little fact that "Dell is absolutely not installing or preinstalling spyware..." a small detail.
The Dell bashing proceeds (I'm not really pro/con Dell), and tech support bashing proceeds. Why do you think a company like Dell has been successful. They sell a generally good product at a very good price, that is easy to buy and it comes with reasonable support. Its called the free market.
And yes a lot of ./ers like to build there own, but for me my time is more valuable than that. I go online spend 15 minutes and I get a new laptop or system, recieve it. load some SW and get to work.
Please people without a company like Dell, Compaq, Gateway etc, we would still be paying $2K for 66MHz machines and yes the geeks would still run the world.
But now my 75 year old dad can buy a great box and have it up and running in no time, and he doesn't even need to feed me!
Haven't you run into spyware that will hose a system if it's removed by Ad-Aware or Spybot? New.net comes to mind and I'm sure there are others. There are so many different kinds of spyware out there, how can Dell be expected to make itself responsible for each and every one and the ramifications of removing it? As people become smarter about spyware (even my mom runs Ad-Aware and Sypbot), the scum are becoming smarter about making it harder to remove. I'll bet someone already pointed this out...
I bought my wife an ibook and she loves it (cause it's pretty) and i like it a lot (cause it's got perl on it), but it's still not a flawless machine. we've encountered several little buggy points and strange behavior from the mail programs and msie and safari, etc, etc. the office apps aren't as perfectly compatible with our windows office apps as you might think. etc etc.
Linux sure isn't flawless either. there's still plenty of work to be swept up and i still wouldn't recommend it to anyone who wasn't decently computer literate or wasn't interested in becoming so.
The notion that switching to mac or linux is going to completely help your family and friends isn't entirely true.
As long as personal computers (of any flavor) can be reprogrammed by users, there will always be these buggy, virus and ad laden behaviors. you don't see too many folks reaching into their toaster to remove the flashing adware LED arrays cause there isn't a way for wal-mart or dell to plug that in. likewise, an automobile is very similar. only those with education and know-how get in there and replace parts around and actually mod.
It's the small price to pay for such modular devices. we have to educate ourselves and toil. all three platforms provide reasonable ways to avoid the pitfalls and to be productive in just about any way you'd like to be, it just takes effort.
office software for console game machines anyone?
m.
Do you mean that Dell sells computers on which you are not supposed to install extra software or that they sell computers without support? This is like selling cars that you don't support if they are driven.
or are they just really fed up with removing a piece of spyware that is part of a spyware supported app that then no longer functions and the users sceram about that as well...really can't win, but if they are loading a program and agreeing to share information FOR YOU then they should be sued into yesterday. The first thing I do when I get ANY OEM PC is format and re-install a clean image without all the OEM's 'added' value stuff which is usually POO anyways...
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Get the story right. Here's my dick bite it.
"hey dude, your getting a 'dell'..."
So, the customer violates the terms of service by installing something which has a component that will be removed by the spyware removal tool, which they will not know until the spyware removal tool removes it. But, since the terms of servce are violated the moment it's installed, the customer is now screwed. Yes, yes, let's move immediately to this new-and-improved EULA.
Have a local computer shop that builds their own computers and has a good reputation build you one.
There is a specific shop that I recommend, but it's a local shop, so the name would be useless to you unless you live here.
So, if you get someone who is unhelpful, take their name, hang up, and call back. I've had conversations with subsequent tech people who apologized for the previous tech behaviour and ensured that my opinion was escalated. How else do you expect to improve tech support without constructive feedback.
Once I get a knowledgeable tech person - and some groups like their server support seem uniformly good - I've had excellent experiences with Dell.
I once had a problem where a hard drive was slow. It worked, but it was slow. All diagnostics passed but some benchmarks indicated a performance problem. Dell replaced the drive. The new drive worked for a week and then exhibited the same problem. So they replaced the motherboard, but the problem continued. Finally, a tech realized that it was heat buildup related and the power supply fan was probably spinning too slowly to vent the heat and so the drive was going into failsafe mode. They replaced the power supply and the drive again and everything worked.
At this point, I can call and simply state that I need a certain part and why I think it's the problem and I can usually get a replacement without further diagnostics because I know what they expect and so pre-empt the 'make a floppy' routine. Why have you still got a floppy drive on your system anyway?
But realize that the techs have a script to follow and often must satisfy certain steps in order to replace expensive parts. Help them to satisfy these steps and don't waste both your time arguing about each step. If you are sure of exactly what will happen, just tell them it did. But you'd better be sure since any company that ships tens of thousands of systems a week may have a little more insight into what could happen than you, in spite of your wider knowledge.
Dell tech support may frequently suck, but they suck less !
> You're so vain, you probably think this sig is about you.
I AM NOT VAIN! And I damn well didn't think you were talking about me, so THERE. Pthpthpthpthpthppt.
I work there. Spyware is a headache. I regularly run adaware, spybot, install the google tool bar, and turn off the messenger service.
I have never received an email saying I can't. I have no idea how they come up with this stuff, most here believe what they're fed, and then add furthur to say spyware is preinstalled.
Makes me wonder about all the other stories I read on the site, since I'm not an athority on their subject matter to realize they're bullshit.
But then again, my mom's an ex-COBOL programmer.
She has her OpenOffice, her Mozilla, and ssh to read mail via pine. She's happy.
She'll be hapier when there is a Linux QuickBooks replacement and we can ditch the one remaining Win partition.
= 9J =
As part of our support contract with Dell, they sent an onsite hardware tech to perform all hardware maintenance for us. Sound pretty good? NOT!
This guy turned out to be completely clueless. The first few servers he worked on, he Fsck'd up 4 of the SCSI drives, and we had to rebuild the server from scratch then restore from the previous night's backup. For the fourth one, he performed maintenance on the worng server (and fsck'd it up too), and it's users were dead in the water for two days while he figured out how to fix it (these users use that server for reporting to the SEC - not good).
"Teleporting Rodents with D-Cell Battery Displacement" theory -- IgnoramusMaximus (692000)
I bought a Dell a few years ago and, after installing a desktop firewall, discovered that it comes installed with a program called "Encompass Monitor" (encmon.exe). Encmon was attempting to call out something on the order of 20 times per minute, and I blocked the program. A friend advised me that this program is well-known Dell spyware and I should uninstall it. It is not hard to uninstall. You just locate the program on the Control Panel/Add Remove programs and remove it.
Behold - a week or two after I removed Encompass Monitor, I began seeing daily probes INCOMING in the desktop firewall logs from various DSL-identified addresses associated with Dell Computer, Inc. So, the people in Texas who were receiving the log files from this spyware suddenly realized their baby was not phoning home any more and began sending probe packets to my machine to find out why. I am really not sure what Dell was tracking, but I suspect it may have been my web-surfing habits, in an attempt to do data mining for sales to other companies who could target my "interests." If anyone has any better intelligence on what data is sent to Dell by Encmon.exe, I'd appreciate a reply, just out of curiosity.
Why have several of the latest articles on slash about DELL been negative and in error. Slashdot of course has no journalistic integrity and should not garner any respect but I still would like to see at least some attempt at filtering biased articles that are in error. As for DELL their customer service has always been better than everyones bar IBM's and SUN's (never had to deal with MAC support. Yes I have administered and currently own serveral MACs). I have dealt with local computer wholesalers and retailers (non chain/national brands) and have never before found such a consistent group of con artists and jack asses before. If they weren't trying to shortchange my warranty they were egotistical asses who claimed they didn't need my business because they could easily sell this crap to some rube who didn't know any better. My experience was the local computer guy preferred customers who knew nothing about computers.
The truth suffers more from convictions than from lies.
You've bought a DELL.
Not a computer.
You've bought a DELL.
Understand?
A computer is an entirely different thing altogether. You can do whatever you want with a computer. With a Dell, because they sell you, software, service, warranty, etc. you're subject to the limitations of their EULA.
If you want to buy a DELL, and modify it so that it is a computer, that's up to you. But don't expect to be covered by their warranty.
In other words, if you want a COMPUTER - you're probably better off just buying one, and not paying extra money (ie. privacy compromised by spyware) for the DELL product - whatever the hell that is supposed to be.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I love this comic.
Assume I was drunk when I posted this.
Forget what commercials say: customer support is never a number one priority in any business. Companies would like you, customers, to think this way; the reality is quite different. I have heard many customer support representatives say that they could not spend longer than X amount of time per customer. Either that or be fired! See, businesses do not like customer service people who are friendly with customers and who can go an extra mile in order to provide a quality service. What any business wants is to make profit and remain profitable.
Sounds bizzare? You bet, and I was really surprised when my boss told me to stop "making friends with customers and spend less time assisting them." See, I work for a liquor store and we have a lot of people who are curious about different kids of wines, spirits, and beer. According to my boss, I should sell them any item, as long as the sale does not take a long time. Even if the item is not something that they are looking for, I have to sell it. Any other deal for a customer means more question and explanation on my side, therefore it is not profitable.
The bottom line, customer service reps are designed to bullshit people and get rid of them within the shortest time frame. Otherwise they are going to be fired. Now, given the fact that most customer service jobs are at the bottom of the corporate food ladder, it is not a surprise that you end up with barely quialified techical support representatives who cannot suggest any ideas that are not on the corporate script. I'd imagine that Dell has received so many calls about spyware, that they had to come up with a certain policy. True user support is the last thing that I expect from any company.
"Mike Healan, editor of spywareinfo.com, writes 'The original posting is misleading. Dell is absolutely not installing or preinstalling spyware and the headline gives the impression that it is.'"
I did some research on Mike, and it looks like his ultimate goal is to go into politics. Good job getting used to the duplicity early on!
Translation: This guy used his big name to discredit a valid topic he claims everywhere to support.
Being trusting of what wealthy corporations say instead of seeing for yourself is also a classic politician's move. Could Dell or one of its allies be one of the companies you claim to be consulting for? Look up Jakob Nielson for a worthwhile example of personal opinions that gracefully conflict with his client's marketing needs. It can be done.
I have personally removed spyware such as Music Match Jukebox and a host of extras that were put on a Dell I had to administer last year.
I specifically asked that all third party software not be installed and was told this was not possible.
Dell does not sell computers without third-party software. Ask them. They'll tell you. (That fact alone should bother you.)
Don't want free AOL? They offer free Earthlink instead. Earthlink's connection procedure utilizes intense cookie tracking. Try and set up a typical network connection to break out of that tracking and your 6 month free account may be terminated (as ours was) and you will instead be sent a new cd including their trusted spyware installer.
Nothing in this world is cheap. Nothing is free. We got a Dell because it was cheap and ended up with a limon. You get what you pay for every time.
And Mike, thanks for letting me know not to vote for you until I own a big company and I need a parrot.
The only spyware there is stuff that's sent to Apple. And everybody knows Apple never does anything naughty :)
(posted from the wife's iBook)
There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
IOW, no matter what the EULA is, nor from whose end of the mess it's enforced (assuming it can be), someone's gonna be unhappy with it. Anyway, I didn't phrase it very well, but the idea was to make the spyware be the violator when it installs under an evil EULA, rather than the end user being pinned as the culprit when they remove said spyware against its evil EULA.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
they're not ENDORSING spyware. they're not INSTALLING spyware. i really don't see this as a newsworthy item at all.
dell just doesn't want to be liable for any damage to users' computers that spyware removal software may do (after all, it's not software they're supporting or are necessarily even familar with), nor do they want to be liable for any license problems from telling people to delete or disable things.
let's follow the train of thought, here: user installs stupid crap, stupid crap breaks machine, user calls dell for help with stupid crap that's not dell's.
there's a reason a lot of tech support places wash their hands of unsupported software and configurations: they're not familiar with how to fix problems that come up, and don't want to accept responsibility if they make things worse.
lots of places have this policy. i get this all the time from vendors: "oh, you're running the linux version of our software on freebsd under emulation . . . uh . . . sorry, that's not supported." i don't get personally offended.
dell's advice to customers should probably be (and probably is) to check what they've installed recently and contact those vendors.
"Mister Potato-head --MISTER POTATO-HEAD! Backdoors are not secrets!" (War Games, 1983)
and realize this as a way for them to differentiate themselves in the market, quit installing crap people don't want.
As most people here would agree with me, any OEM software configuration bought today, and turned loose onto the internet by the average computer will be ravaged by spyware, and brought to a crawl in under a month...effectively a 1.4 GHz computer that acts like an early pentium II. I truly beleive the spyware/malware epidemic is far worse than the viruses out there. And yes, almost all of them are made possible by the explorer/windows combination.
If I were Michael Dell, I would promptly buy every little anti-spyware company that I could find, and provide this free for my customers. Not as charity or goodwill, but a business decision.
I really beleive this spyware thing is making people not want to use their computers, or even go on the internet. My point is, that Dell could sell more computers, and do the right thing at the same time. These guys are supposed to be smart...screwing your customers will work for a little while, but people always catch on, and it always backfires.
You can't just run AdAware and expect the removal process to be complete. There's still much that has to be done, especially registry-wise, or else there might be the kinds of errors mentioned. The first thing to do is try to uninstall as much of the spyware as possible from the Add/Remove Programs Applet. This kills most of the registry keys and files that pop up errors after spyware is removed.
n
n
Once that's done, run AdAware. AdAware should clear out much of the rest of the files, processes, and registry entries.
After the AdAware process, remove spyware startup registry keys from:
HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Ru
HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Ru
And from the appropriate Start Menu Startup folders (both the user's and the "All Users" account's).
Next, check the HOSTS file for any miscreant entries and delete them as necessary.
Reboot.
Check for any spyware processes and hunt them down with the Search tool, deleting the files. Stop and remove any spywre processes remaining.
Snoop around in your Program Files folder and look for any program folders that correspond to the spyware you uninstalled via Add/Remove Programs or via AdAware. Delete them.
Reboot.
If all is well, perform a full anti-virus scan of the machine to make sure there are no viruses.
If you do all of this, the machine can pretty much come out better off than it was before.
Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, START
Gator was rampant on her machine
You can't install an ActiveX control like Gator unless you're surfing the web as an Administrator [Linux ToyBoyz will recall that Administrator == Root].
What kind of son lets his Mom surf the web as an Administrator?
Greased Yoda gets it. I love you, and TEH SPOKE. Sorry about the Taco Bell thing.
More generically we need some kind of media campaign or some way to inform people about spyware, perhaps every company giving away free software without spyware should have an obligatory like to Ad Aware or Spybot during the install process.
Why should people be afraid of spyware, unless they've got something to hide!
I say, the problem is the hippie communists who don't like being spyed on! Americans that are Loyal to their country should have no problem with spyware. If we don't have spyware on every person's computer then the communists have already won!
Yes, we need a campaign about spyware. A campaign that says Give Spyware a Chance!
Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, you hippie communist! Go back to your cave in Siberia!
I'm glad that Dell is fighting on the right side of the war against communism!
Nobody died when Nixon lied.
I'm meeting you half way you stupid hippies!
I can confirm this.
MANY call centres will have a lot of employees who push people off the phones as fast as possible. Some of that involves making things up to piss off the customer, but most of the time it's "well, give this a try and call us back". When you do that, you're also increasing the call volume for the rest of your co-workers who work with you.
I've seen this done at ATI's technical support in Ontario, Canada, along with Palm Inc.'s Canadian technical support branch.
Another thing is that call centres are almost esclusively seen as a "cost centre" by upper management and are often staffed with underqualified or even worse -- completely incompetent people who have absolutely no knowledge of the technology they're supporting. They've just memorized their scripts or do searches on the words you say into the phone.
Many tech support people at call centres are just trying to climb their way up to marketing, and aren't real techies.
P.S. -- From what I've seen from the front lines of Palm support, don't buy anything that's not a Palm V or Palm III series. After those classics they just started fucking everything up and not caring...
ATI's Windows drivers have been getting better, but they're still crap compared to nVidia. Have fun capturing video with an All in Wonder...
FYI: I work at Dell.
It is true that some of the older Dimensions (first starting around September of 98) were not compatible with industry standard ATX. So if you used anything but a Dell replacement motherboard or power supply, you will fry them both. However, a few years later Dell went back to ATX standards due to liability involving safty with fire.
Which brings be to this next tid-bit of info. If you own such a Dell (or any Dell product for that matter), it has a lifetime warranty if it's classified as a safty issue. For example, if it catches on fire, or smoke; Dell will replace it with a brand new unit of equal value. I've seen a Pentium 90 come back in return for a new P4 based Dimension due to smoking power supply. Word of advice. If you did fry your Dimension using the wrong part, don't let them know it or you just wont get that swap.
And, be honest. Don't try and fuck Dell over. They do check over each case to make sure nothing fraudulent is going on. So for those who are already thinking evil thoughts....you've been warned!
Life is not for the lazy.
As I sit here reading slashdot and watching adaware run it's scan on my PC... I am amazed at the ammount of crap that comes from the two or three times a week I open IE and how little is the reuslt of Mozilla...
-- $G
Read the title / caption on the link you provided: "The Best of Both Worlds". This also happened to be the name of the Star Trek TNG episode where Capt. Picard becomes a Borg. Quite fitting for installing BillGatus-ware on a Mac, I think.
Bill just can't help himself, I guess...
Yow! I'm supposed to have a plan?
The issues you raise are documented in this artical: The Toxic Call Centre .
You make the mistake of thinking you can educate the fundamental stupidity out of people. You can't.
actually their may be some wisdom in this decision. i build all my own PCs, but im not going to build a laptop nor am I going to shell out my hard earned money for an over-priced i-book. so i bought a dell laptop. its actually not half bad. their tech support however is full of idiots... and removing spyware can cause wonderful winsock errors. which are GREAT for computer using idiots. so i for one am more comfortable with dell NOT screwing up peoples computers by removing spyware. espically since i work in tech support for an ISP (which shall remain unamed) and get called by these people who got their computers winsock screwed up by dell...
There's all this debate about what the title says. Here's how I parse it:
/. didn't have the slant, it'd be |. -- gratuitously ripped off of some comment I read today.
"Don't Help Customers Remove Spyware"
Spyware was installed at some point. It causes customers problems. The spyware may or may not have been Dell's, but I'd figure that if Dell was installing spyware, the title would say so.
Thus, the customers have installed spyware (ie Gator, Kazaa), and Dell won't help them uninstall it. Wow. That's so incredibly shocking. Go Slashdot.
Remember, if
---
Subject: Dell's new policy on ad and spyware.
From: "Kevin O'Connor"
Date: Thu, December 4, 2003 9:15
To:
Priority: Normal
Ms. Dempsey,
If this is the wrong place to send a complaint of this nature, I
apologize, and ask that you forward it to the appropriate division.
I was disturbed to learn that Dell has instituted a new policy
forbidding technical support staff from aiding paying customers in the
removal of certain types of software, known as adware or spyware. As
Dell, Inc. should know, these types of software provide nothing but
countless hours of frustration that can and should be avoided by a call
to tech support - tech support that your customers are paying you for.
I believe that it is inappropriate for such requests for support be
directed to the customer's own internet service provider (ISP), as this
is an issue that clearly falls within the realm of Dell's technical
support. While I understand that Dell has taken issue with the
possibility of violating end user license agreements (EULAs) of other
pieces of software by aiding in the removal of ad or spyware, I don't
believe that such a hypothetical situation warrants such an extreme lack
of support.
For further clarification of my, and other's, stance on this issue, I
point you to this website,
http://216.180.233.153/~swidotcom/suppo
will follow at the end of this email. I thank you in advance for your
time and consideration. As a Dell customer, I greatly appreciate the
otherwise high quality of your products, and sincerely hope that this
blemish in your policies can be reversed.
Very Truly Yours,
Kevin O'Connor
[text of open letter here]
When their numbers dwindled from 50 to 8, the dwarves began to suspect Hungry.
Fuck you Dell, fuck you.
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
As soon as friends and family think I know about 'puters I've been fighting them off and burning bridges with them since. Been downhill since 1985 for me since....
Fantasyland.
What insight!
Use of spyware removal software may conflict with user license agreements of other applications installed on your system.
To indicate that the dell was installing spyware. Because naturally dell would never support or even care about software that they had not installed themselves. Suddenly they are protecting software installed by other vendors or by the consumer?
Why would they even make an issue? Of course, they may be saving themselves from some legal liability, but why not point this out? Something does not add up.
Just who installed they software they are talking about?
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
That's pretty rich !! I see you and your website screaming your head off that Dell does NOT ship spyware on their systems. What are you afraid off ? litigation by Dell ? U cant have one rule apply to you and one rule apply to Dell. Dell does NOT want to be sued by Spyware manufacturing scum just like u dont want to be sued by Dell. Maybe the concept is too thick to enter your skull. The common enemy here is the spyware manufacturers, and maybe your government is not doing enough against them, so dont blame Dell for implementing policies that basically protect their interests. Dell has a lot more to lose thru litigation than u do.
Start Dancing!
Recent Dell systems come with MusicMatch pre-installed. I would consider that spyware, and others would agree.
= 9J =