Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Taking Over the BIOS
dtjohnson writes "According to this story,
Microsoft has entered into an agreement with BIOS maker Phoenix
Technologies to integrate the BIOS with Windows. This has the
potential to turn PCs into Windows-only machines and also could result
in widespread incorporation of Digital Rights Management (DRM)
technology into new PCs. It looks like Microsoft is beginning to
flex their marketplace monopoly muscles again, after taking a couple of
years off."
This is no different of what Apple is doing for years with the Macs: MacOS/X requires Apple's special BIOS to boot and work with.
Looks like we need to start checking to be sure our next motherboard's flash can be reprogrammed with LinuxBIOS.
so now the bios wont be reliable either?
"I think we're all bozo's on this BIOS"
Courtesy of Firesign Theatre.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Now my BIOS is going to email me this file in order for my advice...
I, for one, welcome our new BIOS controlling overlords.
I, for one, welcome the day when people realize that joke just isn't funny anymore.
All your overload joke are belong to us!
Apple did it without the established market share to back it up. I see this as potentially the most divisive move in computing in the past 10 years. I think a lot of tech savvy folks who run windows (like myself) will switch to Linux in this sort of environment. I have the know-how to do it, I'm just lazy. You teabaggers.
Basic Insecure Operating System ?
Browse at -1, because trolls are often the most creative part of
Now, I will not even require an OS in order to contract and spread viruses and worms.
It's only a matter of time before Microsoft's superior technology inovators develop a compression algorythm that will allow them to stuff all of Windows XP/2003 into the BIOS chip. Then they will really have a lock on the PC industry.
Most desktop end-users won't care but there are a lot of companies that simply won't accept this... Maybe they will be able to pull it off for some hardware but larger will still require hardware with a BIOS capable of running a real OS. And if there's demand, there will be supply.
Remove the chip and get a new one if you want dual booting or linux. There has to be a hack to overwrite the BIOS mem. I am no chip expert by far, but is it really possible for them to entirely by hardware mechanisms to make it windows only?
Somehow, when Apple has a far more monopolitistic marriage of the software and hardware of one company, it is considered good. But if Microsoft does it, it is bad. I think it has something to do with Gates' dorky glasses. Something superficial, anyway.
There's be hell to pay if M$ forced you to buy M$ hardware in order to run its software. But Apple can do it, but why not, their cases look so cool.
Bill and the big boys are taking back our boxes and the Internet they let slip away from them.
They'll tell us they are doing it for our own good and their motto will be 'The Internet is too important for amateurs'
It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
i second this.
Should help Mac sales somewhat! :)
http://www.themeparks.ie
if it is a M$FT BIOS i wont buy it...
...make sure the motherboard you buy does not have a phoenix bios installed.
Kinda of a by-the-way little news item for something which could potentially be so devastating? What will happen to Linux's ease of install? Will the topic du jour a few years from now be "Boycott PCs with this BIOS, only buy hardware with this BIOS" ?
I'm worried.
--- Tao
Say hello to Linux on PPC. Or, for that matter, some BSD flavor on PPC. Speaking of BSD, there's always the Mac OSX option.
First, this is different from Apple?
Second, it will take less than a week for someone to figure out how to access the new BIOS and make linux bootable
Third, there will be plenty of chipset/mb makers who won't do it and you will see "linux" bioses or switchable bios chipsets depending on what the user wants. Linux has enough of a movement that chipmakers and bios makers probably won't ignore them.
MicroSoft is undoubtedly up to no good with this, but we don't need to go Chicken Little without a little more evidence...
Bush: He's Liberal in all the wrong ways.
Damn... Now we're going to be opened up to get viruses that attack BIOS!
boycott Phoenix Technologies if, they want to do that..
I can see it now, the latest blaster worm infect the bios from a ms office script..
crap crap crap..
keep em out.. boycott the bitches...
anime+manga together at last.. in real time.
We deeply regret that an FP of inferior quality was released and a service pack is presently undergoing regression testing and is expected to be available very soon. Please watch for NEW IMPROVED FP VERSION 30.1 coming soon.
I've never actually had a BIOS crash before, might be interesting
IANAL as always, but surely this is illegal?
This is illegal monopolistic activity, designed merely to maintain Microsoft's stranglehold on the desktop. If the courts weren't so busy with 12 year old girls and other assorted Kazaa users, they would get off their asses and sort this out.
If you're happy and you know it read my blog
From the article: "Phoenix said the DRM-enabled CME was not part of Microsoft's NGSCB, but that the technology was complementary. The CME would allow PC makers to embed digital rights management directly into the hardware, though they would have the option of allowing users to turn it off."
I think the authors (or editors) thought the first part of the paragraph sounded "cool" and "techie" or else why would they abbreviate something in one sentence and then write out the whole thing again in the next sentence...
Why do I h8 apple?
>I, for one, welcome our new BIOS controlling overlords.
I, for one, welcome the day when people realize that joke just isn't funny anymore.
All your overload joke are belong to us!
'Cause the "All your X are belong to us" jokes are still fresh and funny, right?
PhoenixNet. Just all the more reason to stay away from Phoenix BIOS.
Since most modern operating systems (i.e. also Linux) use the BIOS nearly exclusively during bootup, I'm not so sure if this has much impact... you will have to be able to boot an OS anyway...
Also, Phoenix is only trying to do in the mainstream what has already been introduced for servers, namely better system diagnostics independent of the sanity state of the OS running.
i hope you aren't as stupid as your joke is lame.
What's to keep the LinuxBIOS project (or something similar) from doing the same thing?
While we may not like it, it's just the logical progression.
Besides, if the BIOS "API's" are available to Windows, how long do you REALLY think it will take for open-source developers to reverse engineer it?
As yoda would say: TYHB LHY ANDH(y)
The motherboard makers could sponsor it.
-Libertarian secular transhumanist
Macs have had their BIOS integrated with the Mac OS since their inception. When Linux became available for Macs (i.e. LinuxPPC and mklinux), all we had to do was boot into Mac OS first then run the Linux Loader (forget what it was called though).
The BIOS OS integration on the Mac has always been a thing of beauty, and it makes sense that M$ would (after 20 years) start to catch up by now.
There is one easy solution. Don't buy Phoenix products. It's YOUR money.
Phoenix Technologies is the same company that forced Phoenix(webbrowser) to change it's name to Mozilla Firebird.
True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.
"Microsoft said integration should mean simpler and more reliable computers."
Can we say BULL SHIT
Well I guess it really will come down to Apple Systems and Music OR Microsoft Systems and Music....
Now to negotiate sale of my soul to the lesser of two evils...but which one is lesser?
Ave Molech Setting
I'm a database guy, so I believe in logic.
It is logically inconsistent to believe Sun is doing poorly because the market has decided propetiary hardware/os combinations make bad financial sense, and that Microsoft will succeed in making hardware propritary to an OS. The free market will prevent this.
In other words, Microsoft is going to die on its own sword.
But the paranoia involving all motherboards in the future to require Windows is obsurd because that is the sort of thing the justice department would not allow Microsoft/Motherboard manufactorers to do. Also, motherboards makers such as EPoX know there is lots of money to be made with overclockers. These are the same people who like to experiment with Linux, if not already using Linux. I don't think they would want to lose their market share.
Apple has no BIOS on a chip anyware. Yes, there's Open Firmware, which is an open standard -- you're NOT locked into any type of control by Apple. You can run Linux on them. You have full control. THAT'S how it's different than Apple.
Oh, you mean the old "Apple ROMs"? That's been ancient history for at least four years, maybe more. There's no more Mac ToolBox on ROM -- it's all loaded into memory from the hard drive.
I am very, very concerned about this move. I run Linux on my Intel box with the current motherboard. Anyone got a good supply of fast PPC motherboards? I could do Linux that way, I guess....
--Jim (me)
Could you explain to me exactly who the lot of companies are? It is my belief that corporations as a whole will either not care at all or will regard this as a very good and important feature that will allow their operating system of choice(Windows) to operate more reliably and securely thanks to DRM and Trusted Computing blah blah blah
Most corporations will welcome this with open arms.
Tell them that you WON'T BUY their chips anymore
"The BIOS would also allow better control of unauthorised devices connected to a system, Microsoft said. "
So, what is MS going to define as unauthorized? I don't fear them making the machine MS only, as I doubt that would fly with their recent monopoly troubles in court, but I do fear the definition of "unauthorized devices".
So, perhaps they mean, CD players that don't use DRM and can rip audio tracks to mp3? That would be a unauthorized device?
If so, thats bad. If microsoft, in any way, starts preventing me, on a hardware level, from deciding what I want to do with my files, I'll give up MS at home and work.
All of the box mfgs have been trying to get out from under the Microsoft monopoly. You think they're going to take getting the BIOS rammed down their throats too? I don't.
Recently my Windows installation got really messed up, and so I had to format my disks and reinstall it. If one does format disks, but something goes wrong (power outage?) what happens now?
When you don't have a leg to stand on, don't even get up.
I thought that Phoenix was an open-source database? or am I thinking of the wrong kinda of bird of fire?
What Mickey wants, Mickey gets. Sometimes.
Just cuz the say "you must put on the
Windows button on all keyboards" doesn't mean
anybody uses it. Who the hell is going
to enable Mickey's DRM knowingly ???
Great! Now we can have BSOD without even having to start Windows! Is't all in the bios baby!
That build our own? Does this mean that the cost of a new motherboard will include the cost of windows, or will this only affect pre-built systems? I really hope manufactures (especially ASUS) still make motherboards with a regular BIOS.
Just 2c
K Man
"But nooo, looks like M$ want's complete control of EVERYTHING that's PC"
Microsoft and IBM together invented the PC. If anyone should complain, it should be IBM only.
"Pretty soon, there won't be such as thing as an MS free PC if they have their way about it."
That is the way it was from the beginning.
I dont think that because of this news we wont in the future be limited to installing other OSes should the MS BIOS be implemented.
Consider than many users run Nix based servers on plain-vanilla ordinary desktop computers. Same goes for small & medium sized businesses.
Also, I dont think well ever see this locking out server motherboards. Medium and large businesses running rackmounts *want* to choose between installing an MS based OS and a Nix one. Pressure alone from a few big companies should muscle this tactic out of the picture.
Before these BIOSes even come to market, I will make sure to upgrade my computer.
Just that Apple current machines use Open Firmware, which is standard IEEE 1275-1994. It boots anything... as already happens with other OSes beyond MacOSX.
I, for one, welcome our new un-funny overlords.
Right at the end of the article you will notice that the users will have an option to turn off the DRM...
Even if it does happen, there will eventually be a market for non-MS tained BIOSes. The small guys will shine, everyone will embrace, Microsoft will crumble. At least that's what happens when I wake up in cold sweat.
A blog like any other.
now you can have a whole new plethora of viruses and worms brought to you by windows update.
both Microsoft and Phoenix are involved in plans to integrate digital rights management (DRM) technology at the operating system and hardware level.
so basically, these people want to control not only the market, but also the computers after they are bought.
Microsoft said integration should mean simpler and more reliable computers.
The stability of Linux on the SAME COMPUTERS THAT RUN WINDOWS has already proved the current system to be reliable. While Microsoft does indeed need to simplify and stabalize its operating systems, pulling direct links to the hardware is not the way to do it. Personally, I don't want Windows using my hardware directly. This is nothing more than a way to make computer makers more afraid not to include Windows on their machines, and there is no way anyone can cover that up.
Esoteric reference.
I recall working on some old(233MHz) Compaq Deskpros which had a BIOS which was clearly a very cut-down and modified version of Windows 3.1, but AFAIK they weren't limited to Windows installs, it was just used for th BIOS UI, it even had mouse support!
Does anybody else remember these?
Windows is only $500 if your time is worthless.
All your BIOS are belong to us
The only way to get around this M$ idiocy is to create Open source hardware...
/.ers feel about this?
There is a lot of propriarity code inside a PC nowadays, the original PC came off the shelf from many standard parts...
Then came rudiment chipsets, then southbridges and north bridges and this goes on and on...
But almost none of these systems are open, a company as M$ can make unilateral agreements and contracts to devide a market and keep other players out...
M$ has this history of using all the room they can take when it comes to unethical business, prooven over and over again...
Don't you all think it is time we started BIOS and various firmwarez projects on Sourceforge and Freshmeat?
Can we really not find people that are willing to put things like lithomasks, traces of motherboards and other IP in GPL alike licences?
If we wait too long then we can't run our home made code even on our own computers...
What do my fellow
that build our own PC's? I am assuimg this is most of the slashdot crowd. So what is going to happen, will this only affect pre-built machines, like from Dell and the like, or will all motherboards suddenly include Windows and a cost increase to pay for said copy of Windows? I really hope not... :( (and no I did NOT RTFA, so don't ask)
K Man
I thought that the plan was to introduce a new bootloader called the "extensible firmware interface". http://www.intel.com/technology/efi/index.htm?iid= sr+efi&
I've been holding off a new pc purchase for a Petium 5, BTX form Factor, and hopefully EFI
someone set up us the DRM
Is there a definitive point in time, a single event that started this all?
DRM this, RIAA that, MPAA my freakin head is spinning. When did DRM become so damn vital to companies like these? Was it napster that freaked everyone?
Because of all this crap, A friends ISP got shut down because someone complained to his upstream provider that one of his users was sharing software, no warning, no proof, no due process...crazy.
I spend $6000 on an HDTV last year that is already obsolete because it doesnt have the flavor of the month DVI copyrite protection connector. Hey man, check out this bad ass new DVD player that upconverts to 1080i, oh what you dont have DVI with HDCP, oh im sorry youre fucked. We had the 15pin RGB connector, then component video, then firewire, then DVI, then DVI with HDCP, and now we have HDMI. make up your freakin minds.
Or how about a cd I bought that would play in my high end REGA Jupiter cd player because it had copywrite protection.
I upgraded my video card and had to reactivate Windows XP on my workstation at work. What a pain in the a$$ I paid for the windows license.
This shit makes physically ill to the point where I want to start firebombing some of these companies.
I obviously blame these corporations and industry groups, but what started it all? Why are they so convinced that anyone using a computer is out to ruin them.
Why am I being affected by all this crap, I dont fileshare, I dont rip CDs for friend, I dont steal cable. Im a somewhat honest consumer, why am I getting nailed with all this crap that really isnt going to make ANY dent in actual piracy?
Are you listening to me Microsoft, RIAA, MPAA, Sony, Adobe, Disney and all you other fuckers. You cant stop piracy, all youre doing is driving me freakin nutts, and Im your paying customer!!!
For DRM to have any measure of success, both hardware and software must be closely joined. A software only DRM solution will fail due to the ability to take the storage media to another software (OS). A hardware DRM solution would work, but updating for new file formats would allow a back-door for hackers.
Taking over the BIOS should be just one step toward implementing a total DRM solution. The next step is securing storage media - maybe a 'smart' drive that handles file interaction for the OS and whose internals are hidden (for example - OS/user doesn't need to know/control format on drive).
is that Phoenix won't be the top BIOS maker if they try to make it so that intel machines will boot only windows.
So, in fact, I predict that isn't the real goal.
Phoenix has been making a lot of noise about updating the BIOS... spruce it up, it makes sense to be able to talk to the BIOS which is there all the time, it makes sense to have a smarter BIOS for grids and redundant system and in general.
I'm not debunking the paranoia, however, I think we ought to keep our eyes peeled. But there is enough lintel business right now that such a BIOS would be a dead end.
-pyrrho
> All your overload joke are belong to us!
Not in Soviet Russia, you insensitive clod!
Now outlook worms will have a common API to flash my BIOS!
Um. If you think other os's are going to be able to get into this go get yourself a toshiba laptop and you'll see what windows-only interface to the BIOS means.
Sure you can run linux on it except that powermanagement is ++ difficult. I'm really disappointed by this.
DRM aside, what about BIOS-infecting version of Blaster/Welchia/Nimda? Isn't this a job for the DOJ or have they been in bed with M$ too long?
Yes, I'm bashing M$. While their extremely user-friendly and have come a very long way at securing their OS, they've got so far to go that it's scary. I don't think that owning the BIOS should be one of their concerns at the moment.
The reason they give is to make things simpler. I, however, see this as creating a situation where the user is merely renting the hardware on which the software resides, where corporations control access to hardware. Are people willing to give up freedoms of computer usage for simplicity? I don't feel this needs to happen for "simplicity." Things are already pretty simple. I don't see how much simpler it can get. The average user never has to look at the bios, they just boot up their system, and it works. I fail to see their point of increased simplicity. Perhaps that is just a term used to stifle debate. "Oh, it's for the sake of simplicity! Simplicity is good! (<whisper>we will also have the right to give or deny access to hardware. You are 0wnzred.</whisper>)"
There is always other hardware like Apple or AMD :-)
You know why Mac's don't have (or need) floppy drives? because, since the BIOS is built in to the OS (Called Firmware), it can contain drivers for the boot loader and devices like a CD ROM. So I can always boot off a CD, a FireWire drive, another volume. etc. I don't need that silly floppy boot disk to load the drivers for me.
This is one of the things that MS could do away with if they made the BIOS, along with far more elegent methods of multiple-boot drives and such. This is a good thing. (maybe).
Linux, on a Mac, loads through YABOOT ("yet another bootloader") which preempts the Firmware. There has never been anything stopping a 3rd party OS from doing this.
Now, MS could feasibly lock up their firmware, but that doesn't mean they will.
huh huh. riiiight.
jaz
All your BIOS are belong to us!!!
OK, I'm sorry, I'll get back to work now...
is just one BIOS.
Won't customers (Linux, *BSD & pre Win2004)
just switch to AMIBIOS or another?
...out of the last 5 motherboards I've purchased not a single one came with Phoneix BIOS on it, why should this be a big concern. Now if AMI, Phoenix, and others all got together and decided this, that would be different. But as it stands right now only one BIOS manufacturer makes it.
Sure companies like Dell and HP that are secretly in Microsoft's pocket and only promote linux to sell more hardware when it suits them might join in with thier computers, it'll just open up the markets for other new computer hardware vendors to appear.
As a rock-in-roll Physicist once said, No matter where you go, there you are.
All your overlord joke are belong to us!
I should start charging $699 everytime somebody uses my name . . .
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
This is not an attempt to force consumers to use MS products, it is an attempt to force them to use DRM products.
I have as much interest in buying a DRM-enabled computer as I do in buying a motor vehicle that won't turn left...
if you want "No More Hiroshimas" then I say "You First. No More Pearl Harbors."
I can't believe this garbage coming out. I had to replace a low end server the other day, and the OS (yes, I was forced to use a Server 2000 OS) was more than the hardware! Now M$ is trying to get their hands in that too? Will it ever stop? God almighty, if 3k isnt enough for M$ to get from a low end server, then what is? 3k just to M$ to be able to use the "BIOS" they copyrighted? Take that with a grain of salt, or a rim of salt! Come... Come to my island.
But what's to keep Microsoft from including the BIOS in their liscense agreements, with the stipulation that that you not modify it in order to use a different OS?
No one really knows for sure what this deal will do for the diversity of the computer industry, but I can tell you that it sure as hell isn't a step in the right direction. It could be worth the EFF's or Sun's or Red Hat's while to mount some kind of legal challenge to this deal to try to stave off an MS monopoly.
Rafe
------- Was it just a coincidence I got moderator points the first time I logged on to
"The BIOS would also allow better control of unauthorised devices connected to a system, Microsoft said."
Why is a protection against "unauthorized devices" suddenly necessary on BIOS-level? Has anyone even been victim of a device that should really have been "unauthorized" (whatever that means in this case) that has been connected to a PC? It sounds like they're talking about hardware, and that's what's puzzling me. Are Microsoft telling us that future devices might be set as "unauthorized" because they don't fulfill Microsoft's demands and standards for an authorized device, or what?
Are Microsoft's customers saying "we should be able to protect ourself against unauthorized hardware" (I'm not hearing anyone), or are Microsoft just trying to shove a new feature down their throats because they need it for their plans?
"Phoenix's Core System Software (CSS) is a next-generation BIOS with a more sophisticated integration of operating system and hardware, for example making it easier for system administrators to remotely monitor the hardware configurations of their systems."
As with all computer software, complexity increases the chance of bugs and often also security exploits. How can Microsoft and Phoenix assure these "enhancements" to the BIOS don't do this? They can't? Well, then we might have an interesting future with really messy exploits ahead (with potential for viruses to gain direct hardware access and control), and also BIOS crashes due to the added complexity.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
Your BIOS will be assimilated. Resistance is futile!
Next Microsoft will be selling cube shaped PCs with eerie green lights illuminating it. We must stop the collective from growing.
"A Dead Boy's Life" (Conclusion) A Franto, Seer of Things, thriller, with the 3D Kid - he's a 3D kid trapped in a 2D world! Previously in "A Dead Boy's Life": While searching for clues regarding the mysterious appearances of very high graffitis all over Super City, the 3D Kid was captured by Beelzebug's intriguing bozone ray and taken to the dreaded Karmageddon Chamber, deep beneath the city's pizza district. We join Franto, Seer of Things, as he comes out of a bozone induced stupor, only to find himself diabolically nude in a public restroom, somewhere in lower Super City... "I am Franto, Seer of Things," Franto boomed in a loud voice that was not appropriate for the smallish restroom he found himself in. "Yet I cannot understand my seeing of mine bare buttocks upon this never before of mine seen restroom floor!" "Eyy, pal, youse wanna keep it down? I'm sh1ttin' 'ere!" And so came the only answer to Franto's confused and badly worded declaration. Franto arose mightily and shook the crumbs from the backs of his thighs before he used his face to smash open the door to the stall from where the faux New York voice came. "Eyyy, pal, youse wanna close the freakin' door? I'm sh-" "SILENCE!" Franto bellowed. Again, the volume was not appropriate. There s(h)at Jim Breuer, channeling Joe Pesci through some kind of marihuana induced intarnation. Franto grabbed Jim by his nostril and lifted him a full twenty feet into the air. "Where did they take him?" Softer now, the voice seemed oddly out of place, like a ham in my pants. "Eyyyyyy, pal, youse wanna lemme go, I'm shi---" Franto promptly spanked Jim on his pert bottom and howled such contrast with Tina Turner, then forgot to make sense. Crouching into a whisper, "I...see....your..stool. It is a shade of......caterpallor not, seen since the days of the Maya." Jim, frightened now, twitched violently, obviously some kind of intarnation side effect that mimicked an arachnoleptic fit. Franto, sensing danger, dropped Jim and fled the scene. After hurling himself across three city blocks, Franto paused, smelling himself mixed with the stench of the city's mustards. He needed energy, and he needed it bad. Without a quick pick-me-up, he would fail and not see things. The 3D Kid would die. Behind him, Jim Breuer expanded slightly. This was the work of Beelzebug. "AND HE WILL PAY FOR THIS LATTE," screamed Franto. Franto had neither the time, nor the pockets, to purchase the beverage offered him by the barista. "I see the...disease...in the blood-of-your-ancestors," Franto noted aloud. The barista, touched, coolly ate a bagel. "It's the osteopornosis - it's been with my people before the Maya took us in and gave us culture, sewers, cabbage," the barista spoke these words true. "Maya." Franto heard the octave and knew it to be works of heros that men made before them. "I must motor - time is late and inoculatte my tasty beverage. You - you will guide me to your people, for they hold the truth in a key hidden under Afterthought." "Yeah, you and what army, doll?" The barista shot back a fiery glance, that meant one of several things which I will list for you: 1. This was not a palace, but a shoe. 2. Everyone needs someone to talk to, everyone needs someone to talk to 3. A spoonful of ashuh, on the 45 F. This was a foreploy 9) Franto thought none of this, being full of glibido Lucky for Franto, everything that was important to him dissolved into something so incoherent that only a moon-based laser capable of producing a "Dopeler effect" could bring balance to the harmony. Such a laser existed only in one place - the 3D Kid's mind. "To his mind we shall go!" giggled Franto as he saw things around him. "This, this will lead to good." Intaxicated at the thought, Franto leaped into the air with a thought! Such power, such might! And the battle began deep with the city's bowel. Franto hugged onto Beelzebub's hind quarters with such fury, but nevermind. Franto flung his powerful arms this way and that, secretly thanking his decafalon for his unusual endurance, but not thanking his deod
(apologies to Ron Jeffries)
so... who else thinks this is a fantasticly bad idea, discounting everything else that's wrong with this plan?
How long until this scheme is hacked? What does "turned on" mean if a computer can be managed when "off"?
Network-aware BIOS worms that never sleep... That's Freedom to Innovate (TM)!
[ Insert the Star Wars 'Imperial March' here ]
So when is China (being the modern purveyor and possibly last hope of open technology) comming out with their own bios?
It's a web browser
MOD PARENT UP!
You should use AdiumX on your Mac.
If you don't like it then buy a Mac. Nothing speaks louder than giving your money to the competitor!
So much for Window-less PCs. Now, even if you rip out the HDD with its OEM installation, you can't even friggin' POST without being confronted with a EULA?
Next you're going to tell me Microsoft made something called a 'winmodem' that only worked on windows. Sheesh don't get worked up thinking so much. I just sit back and let Clippy tell me what to do.
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
I'll be stockpiling real hardware against the coming darkness.
Gentlemen.... Start your Ashcrofts!
This article was totally lacking in technical details, so there's no reason based on it to be worried. If Phoenix publishes the interface to whatever new services its BIOS provides, what's the problem?
Just about every PC hardware manufacturer is influenced by Microsoft, because their products better work with Windows. And a lot of them don't even publish their interfaces, let alone write Linux drivers themselves. Yet Linux hackers have reverse-engineered drivers even for complicated things like Winmodems. And we have no reason to believe we'll have to tackle that problem until we know if Phoenix will be hiding technical documentation on its new BIOS.
There's a project to develop a free implementation of Open Firmware. It's at http://www.openbios.org/.
Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
Sounds like another version of what some of our stupider US senators have been trying to write into law: dumb computers that the consumer has little to no control over. If that ever happens, I hope the bottom drops out of the market and hardware hackers build or fix pc's to their taste.
I think I'd make more money.
You want to guarantee that Open Source continues to bite into your profits and nip at your heels, Bill? Just try pulling this one and see what happens.
"The more you tighten your grip, the more they will slip through your fingers"--Princess Leia.
I can hear it now. On trying to install Linux, "I'm sorry Dave, but I can't let you do that"
__ Someday, but not this morning, I'll finally learn to use the preview button.
Right now the Navy is running YellowDog Linux on 260 Xserve machines.
IBM, Motorola, and Apple will make sure that there are plenty PPC machines to run Linux and UNIX.
That is if MS is doing this to shut out Linux.
photosMy Photostream
If this is entirely true, then why are there still no other systems available that can run os x? Why can I not just buy a PPC motherboard, a video card, assemble a system, and run mac os?
... to see a bios blue-screen.
What idiots. They were just convicted of being a illegal monopoly, but does that stop them? No. They continue to tie products into the OS such as IE and Media player, now they want to try to control what OS is allowed on a PC Sorry, I don't see this having any affect. There are plenty of other bios companies out there, heck HP has their own for HP servers. I just finshed setting up a bunch of HP DL380 servers with Red Hat and in the BIOS they have Linux as one of the OSes to choose. I also don't think IBM and Oracle will sit back and see MS try to destroy their investments in Linux. Sorry MS, try again. When will MS get it, you can't destroy Linux. It will continue as long as people are passionate about it an *want* it to contine. no commercial company can stop it. I hope that IBM can make their newest processor a commodity so that it is more affordable. The PowerPC is much better then anything from Intel. I personally hope Inetl goes down hard for being in bed with MS. Heck, AMD is leaving Intel in the dust with 64 bit chips. Maybe the personal PC can make a switch to PowerPC and still be affordable to the masses?
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
Maybe a few years ago, this would be frightening, but as it stands, it is far too late to fear the PC industry being locked into Windows. Even if you think the home user base is unimportant, IBM, Dell, HPaq, Sun, Racksaver, and others have a significant investment in Linux in particular, and even if MS managed to get all the current independent motherboard companies on board for this, most any of those players would easily overcome it to keep the Linux revenue stream going.
You have Clustering, server farms, web hosting, and a not so insignificant workstation and desktop market that is heavily leaning in the direction of linux (dominating the first three, and making very serious inroads into workstations and power user desktops). That's a whole lot of revenue for the likes of the big companies to just shrug and give up at Microsoft's whim.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
that's right you phoennites, taking our cue from the ?pr? ?firm? scriptdead stylings of co-softwar gangster carl lee, we FEEl confeedent that you'll be thrilled to make your obsolete bios compatable with linus et AL.
you know fuddles is in trouble. we're just being forced (as carl lee says she was/is) to take advantage.
you'll have to decide buy nightfall.
also note: we/our customers will not buy ANY device which disallows choice, &/or promotes the georgewellian fuddite corepirate nazi execrable's evile greed/fear based agenda.
yes ;-)
whew!
The consumer will finally turn due to the pressure exerted on their wallets and say; enough is enough: You either give me a decent product for reasonable money or I will go elsewhere.
The consumer (in vast numbers) has the ultimate say over what manufacturers will do. - Any businessman will listen to their customers if they all shout the same thing.
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
Great, now PC BIOSes will be wide open to virus infection. Think the virus outbreak this past summer was bad? Just wait until there are thousands of zombie machines with a hosed BIOS spewing Swen emails.
Antivirus software will have to be in the BIOS also.
Microsoft
In America today you can murder land for private profit. You can leave the corpse for all to see, and nobody calls the c
Now is the time for IBM to start releasing cheap single proc Power PC ala this story.
Does this mean that the next virus that comes its way that requires a format and reinstall is going to completely make the computer unbootable even at a BIOS level?
I wasn't aware that microsoft was on a vacation from their antitrust activities =P
One only has to wonder how long before TCPA chip will refuse to load Linux BIOS loading only "trusted" Windows BIOS which will of course never load "untrusted" GNU OS. Truely scary perspective especially considering the fact that back in 1997 we all thought The Right to Read was a huge overexeggaration. I think it is time to renew my EFF membership. I believe everyone should do that instead of just complaining on Slashdot.
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
And my Axe! Oh wait a minute...umm..I third this!
Windows is already non-secure becuase it integrates too many capabilities! Yes it does increase functionality but that is alwys the eternal struggle, balancing functionality with security. When you increase one the other must decrease. Integrating the OS with the BIOS, esp in the case of M$ sounds like it will only lead to problems later on.
"It's better to be a pirate then join the Navy"
This in turn means that Dell et al will either
First Palladium, now this... This is just going to put Microsoft in deeper shit than they already are... In a way, I'm all for Palladium (but not this)... because then there will be massive movements to Linux, which will solve the one and only problem I have with Linux (not a wide selection of commercial games for it), because then games will HAVE to be made for Linux for the game companies to make as much profit as they are now, and then I will be a happy camper using Linux all the time :D
The major problem with this is, I won't feel like I'm in chief control of my OWN computer... Microsoft will be...
"Right at the end of the article you will notice that the users will have an option to turn off the DRM...
Phoenix said the DRM-enabled CME was not part of Microsoft's NGSCB, but that the technology was complementary. The CME would allow PC makers to embed digital rights management directly into the hardware, though they would have the option of allowing users to turn it off."
The bolded 'they' is the hardware manufacturers [PC makers] not the users.
Now I might be cynical, but if a hardware maker uses the effort to embed DRM in their hardware it doesn't make sense for me that they would allow the user the ability to turn it off - even tho they as hardware makers will have that option [at an increased price of course].
Also as others in this thread has noted - it wont take long before media and even applications will require hardware DRM to run - so the fantasy of optional DRM becomes even more moot.
You just lost $100. The parent poster is engaged to a woman 6 years younger.
The parent poster only likes ST Voyager and ST Enterprise, although only Enterprise is played on TV where he lives.
I can see why MS would want to do this. No more reliance on the user to download security patches, or updates, or whatever. As soon as the computer is turned on the bios jacks into the NIC, contacts the internet, downloads updates, uploads usage statistics, checks that the software installed matches the key codes stored on a master server, and then lets you boot the OS.
if microsoft does this and the pc market gets suck with win* only systems i'll buy a mac....
Just don't buy PCs with Phoenix BIOSes.
Even better: competing BIOS makers shoud trumpet their "NO DRM!" and "NO MS!" status.
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
OpenFirmware.
site of the future:
http://biosupdate.microsoft.com/eula.asp
See above. You're just begging to start a flamewar between Mac and PC users.
They're probably going to try and make a Windows CPU based around the console industries methods.. License people to write Windows PC software, if you dont own the license you cant program for it.. Can only run licensed software and nothing else.
All kidding aside... I write BIOS code for a living, and this scares the crap out of me. What Microsoft wants is to basically eliminate the BIOS, except for the jump to the OS code (the "int 19" above). Windows already does just about everything that we do in the BIOS, like PCI device enumeration, etc...
No doubt, this would make Microsoft's life a lot more simple, but I think it would give them too much control -- way too much. DRM would just be the start of it.
I wonder what the EFI proponents (Intel) think about this deal...
The Microsoft BIOS will be called "Microsoft Control Program," or MCP for short.
End of Line.
Trying to start a flamewar between PC and Mac users, tr*ll?
Don't forget that IBM still uses their own BIOS.
Of course, they were also the first on the block with a TCPA implmentation.
(HPaq also has their own BIOS for server systems. And judging by the copyrights on a Dell, it looks like they are using a forked version of a very old Phoenix BIOS, not Phoenix's latest and greatest.)
BIOS and DRM, intellectual property, etc..
Correct me if I am wrong, but Phoenix's entire business has come from reverse-engineering (under current US law = stealing) the original IBM PC bios?
I guess the difference between white and black hats is the age of the hat in question.....
The thing that I was most hoping to come out of the whole linux movement, was that the industry would move back away from the monoculture of the X86 and Macintosh style machines, and into some real diversity. Yes, I do lump mac and pc into the same taxonomic group.
So we finally have a few very usable, very well designed operating systems, and what do we do? We run them on PC's and sometimes on macs. When someone releases a piece of software "for linux", they either mean, source that should run anywhere, or else they mean "binary for linux on an x86"
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
"And in the battle of public opinion, you can't beat the 500 pound elephant willing to lie."
You mean this elephant?
Don't worry this elephant will take care of that.
Next time the comp will only get blues - yeah from the start to it's end.
Oh it will be reliable, all right. For the new breed of Microsoft worms.
Then after that, they will be able to have parental controls for your BIOS, that turns off the computer after X number of hours, because you were using it for too long ;)
All your BIOS are belong to us.
Should you happen to venture on one,
It will sigh like a thing that is deeply distressed:
And it always looks grave at a pun.
I do my best to look grave.
fully agree... can't slashdot put some configurable javascript to run a regexp to hide_remove_destroy overlord_soviet russia_etc crap from the displayed page? Sever side filtering up to this detail would seriously /. /. itself but a js could do... I'm really sick of it... if not for anything else, it makes me think of the time delta since hot grits were all around. Please, I'm feeling old!
Mi domando chi à il mandante di tutte le cazzate che faccio - Altan
Could this be another way for Microsoft to levy an OEM-level tax, but on the sly (at first)?
I currently very happily build my company's own servers so I can get exactly the feature set that I want. A pleasant side effect: the OS tax is very low when purchasing the bare parts (still some Microsoft tax in the form of R&D dollars spent by manufacturers to make their stuff run under Windows). But if/when Microsoft weasels their way into the motherboard level of components, and creates tying agreements that require the motherboard manufacturers to pay an OS tax or something similar (DRM tax) through leveraging Microsoft intellectual property inserted into the BIOS, then even when we consciously eschew Microsoft solutions we are still funding them. Imagine an explicit part of the cost of every motherboard, perhaps every hard disk drive sold down the road, being a payment to Microsoft... Phoenix might even happily agree to do this, under a barter arrangement where they receive Microsoft intellectual property now for free in exchange for agreeing to count every motherboard licensed for their BIOS as a Windows box, and think they have "first mover advantage".
Yeah, DRM will be optional for a while. But when 90% of users are switched over to Windows2007, then banks will start to require DRM enabled computers to do your financial transactions over the web (balance transfers, checking the mortage status, etc.). Then the Powers-That-Be(TM) will decide that in order to crack down on terrorists, all on-line banking transactions will have to use a computer with DRM (and it just so happens that all transactions will also be simulatneously logged on IRS computers). Then on-line retailers will get in the act. First the Amazon's and E-Bay's will start to require it to reduce fraud. Then the banks will stiff-arm *all* merchants to only allow credit card transactions from DRM enabled machines. Of course on-line bill paying will go the same way. And now since the majority of people have these computers, other web-site operators will start to think "What kind of 'hacker' is visiting my site without a properly 'secured' browser? And what kind of data mining can I do now that I have a guarenteed identity behind the computer that I can sell to someone else!" So as more companies start to jump on the bandwagon, Grandma complains, "Some ladies in my knitting circle can't see my blog!" So the blogging software companies have to also incorporate DRM. Finally, the only people left using non DRM computer will be linux enthusiasts and criminals/terrorists. And since these two groups are about equal in size it'll be about a 50% chance that any web-surfer using a non-DRM computer is a criminal. Finally, DRM will be mandated by law and all objectors will be (secretly) rounded up and quitely disposed of (via the Patriot VI Act). So I know that I sleep sound at night knowing that DRM is *optional*.
Perhaps they are just acquiring BIOS code to integrate into their devices and embedded OS? Maybe we will see MS Media Center devices that lack a typical bios chip?
Umm... It seems to me you're only one small step away from "trolling", but I'll comment anyway.
As a Mac (and occasional PC) user myself, I see the benefits and disadvantages to both platforms.
The Apple Mac is most certainly geared towards running only MacOS (OS X in the case of current hardware). Sure, you can load BSD or Linux on it, but given the prices of new Mac systems, who would really do that?
The whole "draw" of OS X is that fact that it's already BSD Unix based, but with a nicer GUI welded on top. Opting to run a new Mac with a free Unix variant seems silly to me. You already paid for OS X in the price of the system, for starters - but you'd also be crippling some of your hardware compatibility and ease of use. (I've run Debian for PPC and it's great for older, obsolete Macs that have devalued to almost no cost to purchase. I just wouldn't want it on a current Mac. USB support is questionable in it for some devices, and I'd lose all the software like the Apple iApps too.)
Yes, Apple did use "OpenFirmware" - but that's a rather meaningless "standard". Apple had so many bugs and unsupported functions in their OpenFirmware implementations that you could barely make use of it on many of their previous products. (I'd call it pretty "broken" when you, for example, can't even see what you're typing on your attached display - and get forced to acces it through a serial port on a remote terminal! That was the case on a number of their PowerMacs/Performas.)
Everyone, sing along:
Open Firmware Song
Older Macintoshes didn't have a "BIOS" or firmware at all -- they booted directly into MacOS, which was partially located in the ROM.
So, it was absolutely impossible to bootstrap into anything but MacOS (even A/UX used a MacOS-based loader).
I hate MS with a vengeance.
However, the one thing--the one single thing--that I will give them that was a smart move was to allow their OS to be dissociated from any particular hardware vendor.
It seems to me that there was a time in my youth when a multiplicity of PC systems--e.g., Apple, Amiga, Commodore, IBM--etc. existed in the marketplace.
At some point, I recall Windows surpassing the others in marketshare.
My memories of this were associated with people saying things like "well, I can get this 'IBM clone' for much cheaper than an actual IBM system; if I bought Apple, I'd have to by the hardware from them."
I don't like the idea of MS integrating their OS and the BIOS. But maybe, just maybe, if it means tying people to a particular hardware platform, when Linux is not, people will start buying Linux in the early 2000s for the same reason people bought Wintel in the late 1980s.
This is very bad ...
:
...
...
... IT'S LIKE STEALING CANDY FROM A BABY! The exact same pattern will happen here!
Here is what Microsoft has a track record of doing to prove why
Microsoft has an "innovative" idea...
They find some company who can provide them with what they need.
They negotiate with company and sign aggreements to use on some payment scale.
They use, they modify source code of and architecture of XYZ companies "proprietory" technology.
They add bloat and thus security bugs - more bloat = more security flaws.
Microsoft are the king of bloat
Once they have stolen all the other companies proprietory technology they need, out come the attack dogs.
They screw the company that provided them with the technology they needed royally, by refusing to pay them or just plain fucking with IP trade secrets. no doubt using some "flaw" in the "aggreements" XYZ company signed that Microsoft's Lawyers handily left in.
XYZ company goes bankcrupt and folds.
Meanwhile microsoft leave us, the end-user
with trashed "bloated" version of stolen technology that leads to more security holes
Microsoft thus remains dominant as they have screwed over company that provided them with what they need.
Microsoft have done this, over- and over and over again.
It amazes me that ANY company signs technology/IP partnership deals with Microsoft.
References: NVidia/XBox, Sendo/"SmartPhones" and many many more
Half the technology Microsoft "innovate" is simply stolen, leaving behind a destroyed company in it's wake.
WHY DO THESE COMPANIES SIGN THESE DEALS, THAT MICROSOFT *NEVER* HOLD THERE PART OF THE BARGAIN OF? NO-WONDER BILLY-G HAS GOT A BIG SMILE ON HIS FACE
Bye bye control of your computer,
Bye bye BIOS company.
This is the start of the end of computing, as we know it. Microsoft, Have won.
It's just as well I haven't seen a PC with a phoenix BIOS im months.
I'll continue buying Award and AMI, thanks.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
I'm a PC maker, MS comes to me with deals.
***MS gives a discount if they only install Windows on all their machines and refuses to sell any without OS's on them** Ok, I can deal with that, there aren't any alternatives right now and if they come up in the future, we can always renegotiate.
(Competition is completly decimated as all the large manufacturers do this)
*Bigger discount if you don't include the CD or documentation.* Sounds good to me.
(More money for redmond.)
*We'll also give you a discount on microsoft brand keyboards and mice which you can rebrand and we'll sell them to you for cheaper than you normally make them. We'll also give you a great discount on office if you promise not to carry anything else* Sounds good.
(Gets your company locked into microsoft products even more.)
*All of your machines require this BIOS in order to run windows, we'll give you another discount if you install them.* Sure, I can go with that, more money for me, w00p. I can always pull out of the agreement later.
(More lockin to windows products, now you've got to change your company somewhat in order to throw them in. At first it's inexpensive, they give a discount, and after a year or 3, they jack up the prices)
*Windows now requires that you use these cheap, fritz chipped celeron processors.* Sure, I spose I can since all my stuff is based off of windows anyway and at this point changing my company will cost millions.
(Microsoft now implements DRM on computers and a lot of bullshit like changing the hardware config requires a call-in to microsoft, opening your files from a different OS is more difficult, etc.)
*Windows will only work with windows-based chipsets, which only we sell and lisence now, they're cheaper than other motherboards.* Er..ok...sure I guess. Makes sense, and the corperate people like it so ok.
(At this point, microsoft will eliminate the motherboard market, giving them control over everything prettymuch. Processers can be dealt with, but motherboards can't. They at this point start eliminating manufacturers 1 by 1, accusing them of bogus bullshit and infringing on their patents on the motherboards now proprietary buses)
*The motherboards can now only run microsoft parts in a microsoft case. You need to buy microsoft parts and microsoft cases, but unfortunatly, they'll cost you 5 times as much as it costs us.) Fsck...where's linux? Where's unlocked fritz'd processors? Motherboard manufacturers? Help meee...
(Microsoft now has complete control over the PC market. And since they have so much more control, they become even more powerful and eventually take control over world goverments since windows is running on everything. They use blackops to take over the goverment using nazi-like tactics, accept they just assassinate anyone who they don't like and twist the media their own uses)
Hackers, at this point, being driven far underground and forced to be a very militant breed (think gattica), exploit bugs in the now somewhat secure Microsoft windows systems which are a modified version of linux in order to eat and live and help their communities. The roaming poor people, unable to find food or shelter and thrown out into the streets because all of the manufacturing and distrobution is done by robots and machines(Think of all the chain stores becoming automated), turn to these hackers for help and education. The black market thrives throughout an underground wireless network which uses wireless devices long ago banned by the goverment. Hackers are persecuted as is thought crime.
The normal people live as slaves in archeologies and are never allowed to go outside but are terrified of all the violent evil people who regularily kill cops and hurt people, a war is regularily burning overseas with china or some other distant country. In 2-3 generations, the archeologies have become full of loyal sheep, while the hackers have become extremly hard
Candy-Coated Knowledge
If Windows can run faster and have better control over the hardware with this BIOS, then Linux can as well.
Come on, guys.. this is Slashdot! Are you forgetting that a very large pool of very bright individuals read this forum? Phoenix will release the specs for this new BIOS, the kernel hackers will develop a patch to support it, and before you know it, the same benefits that Windows O/Ss gain from it will be found in Linux as well. Minus the DRM, of course.. although I wouldn't be surprised to see that as a patch either.
If MS can benefit from this, so can Linux. The only way that wouldn't be true is if the specs are not public, or are licensed under a RAND license that precludes OSS participation and nobody wants to foot the bill on our behalf. Or if Phoenix tries a DMCA ploy of some sort. I can't picture them charging a license fee for using it when they can more easily enforce an outright fee for the supporting MB installation. Even so, I wouldn't be surprised to see it reverse engineered. Look at WinModems and their rise of functionality under Linux..
---
er.. um.. excuse me. I meant GNU/Linux.
if he is, he wouldn't be able to type. THAT'S HOW LAME IT IS.
Support Israeli punk bands. Man Alive.
Let's see if I can summarize the tedious replies to this.
1. Oh, I'll show them - I'll use XXX now and dump the PC!
2. Same old MS, locking out Linux! (they're not)
3. Now my bios is going to get viruses! He He He. Ahahahaha. Tee-hee.
4. Let's see if I can summarize the tedious replies to this....
5. Monopoly! How dare they offer more features to customers!
6. [Attempted voice of reason people] "Sure, this isn't bad now, but just wait until....".
It's all so idiotic and redunant.
There's also AMI. Also, I really have to wonder if machines with locked-in BIOS sets are going to suffer the same fate as DIVX discs, Microsoft's "Bob," and all the other weird ideas that litter the technology graveyards.
Speaking for myself, I can say with confidence that I would NEVER, under ANY conditions, buy a system that's been locked up as the article describes. I will NOT tolerate some megalomaniacal company telling me what OS I can or cannot run on a system that I buy/own.
The good news is that a move like this could certainly be a shot in the arm for the used computer industry, considering all the systems that are pre-DRM/pre-BIOS insanity/etc.
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
Microsoft is clearly not a monopoly on the PC market. Why, what... with compeditors like....... err
Unauthorized devices means two different things:
1. Hardware that isn't approved by Microsoft. A Lexmark printer is currently "protected" against third-party ink cartridges by an encryption scheme (which, in the US, is in turn protected by the DMCA). This will allow Microsoft to do the same with every component in a PC. You won't actually need to buy all your hardware from Microsoft, of course, but hardware manufacturers will need to obtain MS's (expensive) authorization. To prevent a backlash against a huge extension of the MS tax, Microsoft will spin it as something like "compatability assurance" or "security testing".
2. Non-DRM hardware. Pay-per-view movies and pay-per-play music won't generate much revenue for the MPAA/RIAA if the consumer can simply hook up the media player (which is what the PC will become) to a VCR or tape recorder. You'll need MS-approved, DRM-crippled monitors and headphones.
Microsoft claims that unathorized devices are a threat. In particular, they say that Palladium (of which this BIOS is a crucial part) will prevent hardware keystroke sniffers, by encrypting everything between the keyboard and the PC. The problem with this argument is that the encryption keys are held by Microsoft, not the computer owner.
Once they are booted, the BIOS is bypassed..
So do i really care this is happening?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
The BIOS is one old peice of kit. It has hardly changed since way back when. I for one welcome this as it may force the market to come up with an alternative. Having a legacy free computer would be nice. Out with the old, in with the new!
When your Mac starts up, press Cmd-Opt-O-F simultaneously and you'll boot into OpenFirmware. Type (with spaces):
;)
2 2 +
Then hit enter. The machine will print 4 to the screen.
Welcome to the world of Forth and OpenFirmware. You can write Forth scripts to change boot order, check for drivers and even access hardware if you want. Damn cool.
And it's great for those times when you need a calculator but don't have time for the machine to start up
I can see all the thick-skulled cops now..
"Sonny, you clearly circumvented technological security mechanisms by using illegal software (MS didn't give it a run-license) to install Linux. You clearly broke the law and now it's federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison for you. Don't drop the soap, sucker! I despise scum like you."
I hope people will keep in mind what legislation of technology does when they whine to their congressmen about spam. When you beg the government to make certain emails illegal, they have to define "illegal email". Now are you sure you would like the US Congress to define "illegal email" _for you_?
"Microsoft said integration should mean simpler and more reliable computers."
I cant believe in the face of every virus MS has been responsible for spreading or allowing to spread due to crappy code they think a BIOS with MS system calls in it wont be a problem.
I can see the next ms.blaster worm that wipes your bios requireing you to replace the ROM.
unless it was deliberately implemented
I wonder if MSFT deliberately implemented the "feature" of not recognizing any non-MSFT OS on your harddrive, so that in order to dual-boot you need to make sure you install Windows _before_ you install Linux, etc.I think the problem here is MSFT is the 800lb gorilla, whether it was deliberate or not, it works in their favor to not work well with other OSes, so from a historical standpoint, it's likely there will be little glitches in the BIOS, that make it difficult to use non-Windows OSes.
Another great example is the Winmodem. To the happy consumer, looks like great idea - save money, put all the hardware of a modem in software, vendor sells a cheaper modem .. but customer gets a slow, cheap modem that only works on Windows.
...how do you *really* feel?
Patient: I don't feel so good.
Doctor: I've got good news and bad news.
Patient: Give me the good news first.
Doctor: You're cancer free.
Patient: Wow! That's great. What's the bad news?
Doctor: You've got worms, and you seem to have caught a nasty virus.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
It's time for OpenBIOS Another piece of GPL code
I'm sshing in and it's slow as crap here, so I'll keep this short:
What's easier than making a law requiring new [X] to have a new technology which must be developed?
Make a law requiring something which already exists (and has been used, possibly for years) to be required instead of optional.
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
(I'd call it pretty "broken" when you, for example, can't even see what you're typing on your attached display - and get forced to acces it through a serial port on a remote terminal! That was the case on a number of their PowerMacs/Performas.)
/chaos/control.
Ah, OpenFirmware 1.0.3. The secret was to download a MacOS utility and reconfigure OF so that the output device was
But you're right, it was pretty damn annoying otherwise.
Thats the point. We know it's not funny anymore, thats why we love using it.
Sincerely, The Trolls.
Yadda yadda, so what? This means that the actual boot code will become even more basic or perhaps better as in Openboot (i.e. as per Suns or Macs). So in the end the OS actually carries a better set of system device drivers...so what?
Whoopi, it should only improve access to the systems. The threat of DRM at a lower level is a joke...reburn the FLASH if need be. And if that isn't "general" user friendly, we all know plenty of people willing to make a buck doing it for us.
I doubt that IBM, Dell, HP as well as many fortune 500 companies that run Linux on the server would allow this to happen.
Of course, none of these companies probably gives a damn if Microsoft maintains control over the desktop.
This space left intentionally blank.
Everybody assumes Microsoft will simply implement this with no warning as a prerequisite for running Windows.
I don't think that's strictly true. I think that Microsoft has a number of priorities with this and those will be, amongst others:
1. The ability to make PCs behave more like Macs in intelligent device recognition, power managment, etc.
2. To implement Palladium DRM features that will strengthen Microsoft's position with regard to Piracy of it's software and gain revenue from RIAA, MPAA etc licencing access and controls of digital media.
3. They will attempt to make Windows more secure.
4. They will attempt to lock Linux out, by making it either impossible to boot Linux or at the least very difficult.
Microsoft is going to claim it's for the consumers benefit. Microsoft is going to implement this, AS ALWAYS, with backwards compatibility, so that older computers will still run, NOMINALLY, with the newer OS versions, but many features (which will not be related to the new BIOS technically, but which Microsoft will so implement) will not run without the new BIOS. That will be they way Microsoft will enforce this amongst customers.
nt
...doing so would be illegal under the DMCA...
It might come as a shock to some.here's a whole lot of this planet that doesn't come under the auspices of either America or the DMCA. I piss with great force on your DMCA! Within a day there'll be a fix for this that the rest of the (non-American) world will be able to use and enjoy! Ha!
You're using her as bait, Master!
Do that and watch me never buy a computer with a Pheonix bios.
Even if all the PC makers do it I'll just go to Apple or Sun hardware.
I didn't know that.
Moof.
Companies like Macrovision pump up the numbers to sell their latest greatest copyprotection scheme, lazy execs at the RIAA are too stupid to realize that most people have already replaced their vinyl and CD's don't wear out like LP's and cassettes did, and lastly companies like MS realize that if only 0.5% of all PC's worldwide are now forced to buy their software then they will make dizzying profits.
Combine this with the transition we have made from an enthusiast/techie led industry to a consumer driven one and that's where we are and are going.
I hate this, but basically what is going to happen is that we lost the great opportunity we had. The chance to build a truly open and universal system for interaction of all people is just about gone. We enthusiasts will still be around, but our numbers and influence will be so small that we'll be irrelevant. Let's just hope that we can find a way to keep the inevitable laws from running us really underground (like back to BBS's.)
I'll own up right now that I hate M$ and any moronic M$ drone kid (like Nanogator) who believes his opinion is worth anything. If gameplaying is the issue - go hang around gameplaying sites. This site is for people who have legitimate concerns about the ridiculous state of the computer industry. That is, that an admonished monopoly succeeds in pushing its second rate software becuase of idiot consumers just like nonagator. If you truly think that playing games on an M$ platform justifies a Windoz monopoly you should be hung by your eyeballs.
There are 2 kinds of people in this world - serious people and trivial people. Those of us whom have serious computing needs need to forcefeed you gameplayers game consoles and get you out of the computing arena. Then the marketplace will more accurately reflect adult decisions.
I can see it already...
"This BIOS has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down."
This is very bad.
Dell does their own Bios.
The worst battle cry ever, has to be:
"Come on boys, let's get our throats cut!"
I forget where I read it...
T&K.
Political language
These machines will have a limited market. And the
market drives the industry. This will fail.
You can always buy your own motherboard. Not all manufacturers will go with a Phoenix/Microsoft Bios. And there's always the open firmware project.
Some user rights organization (e.g. EFF) needs to come up with a "DRM Free" certification program for systems, motherboards and other hardware to assure potential buyers, and a nice big logo to go with it (and you know they love logos in Taiwan... no translation required!) That way the consumer can vote with their dollars and put an end to this nonsense... if even 10% of hardware sold is DRM Free (and I'm guessing at least 25% wouldn't buy otherwise) Microsoft & friends can never require DRM features as a prerequisite for installation.
Perhaps they want to stop things like this program that installs a VxD audio recorder. It installs itself as a sound card makes all the DRM you have useless.
Load encrypted file, Verify Rights, Decrypt Audio Stream, send result to sound card which saves it straight to Wav, MP3 or Ogg. Thank you very much.
Actually this is why I bought it. I consider it a very nice audio conversion program that works with all formats. Better then SoX!
My impression has been that with NT and the Freenixes, the BIOS is a bootloader and then it gets the h*ll out of the way. Using BIOS calls as part of the operating system died with MS-DOS, for the most part. So long as the BIOS provides enough hardware abstraction to allow the kernal of whatever OS you choose to run unimpeded, it shouldn't matter much.
Plus, the day of new, new, ever-new hardware is coming to a close. I'm picking up nice Pentium II systems for under $10 at auction these days. Unless you're part of the bloat-of-the-month-club you don't need anything more than what a Pentium II 400 provides, anyway. If you're a gamer, get real- buy a console and be done with it. I'm making sure I pick up a good stock of the current generation of 'obsolete machines' because I don't think I'll ever again have to buy a new machine. Let someone else spend more than $25 on a desktop machine....
A Good Intro to NetBS
n/t
You can see examples of BIOS-OS integration in game consoles and PDAs. Usually, one gets more performance out of a hardware by the integration (and copyright control, of course). The downside is, once the manufacturer abandons the hardware, it becomes a junk. However attractive and still usable the hardware is, it is very difficult to use it other than in the original design.
Also, all hardwares have their physical life limit and eventually will become broken. Then an emulator is an option but a proprietary BIOS-OS makes the development of an emulator extremely hard. The fate of Sega Saturn would be a good example.
Apple amazes me by providing an excellent emulator for OS8-9 softwares on OS X. I still use Word98 for Mac on my G4.
Little anybody can do anyways to alter Microsoft's business decisions.
;) has overhauled it's advertising, lower pricing, and accomplished in removing many annoyances to it's users and developers alike. If things were 50/50 it would be a great race.
Microsoft has for whatever reason
Perhaps irrational optimistism but maybe they want a better OS. Perfected software to hardware does have some benifits.
Those who can afford it are hardworking, deserving, and morally good. Those who can't afford it are lazy, undeserving, morally suspect. They're probably unemployed and too lazy to get a new job. They probably voted democrat in the last election. Go back to Soviet Russia, you commie pinko faggot.
If this new BIOS is used by IBM, HP, Dell, etc., they will make sure that the machines boot Linux, since they have a server business model now that relies on Linux. Having said this, it is likely that the new BIOS scheme will likely benefit Linux as well if it improves Windows performance.
Vote for Pedro
"The BIOS would also allow better control of unauthorised devices connected to a system, Microsoft said."
hmm... and what exactly classifies as "unauthorized devices" and who decides?
This could be a security plus if the control were in the hands of the users, but even then I can't really think of any situations where this would be needed. I don't know about you, but i have never had an "unauthorized device" in my computer. Obviously the system will be in the control of Windows/M$, definately not something we want.
A distinctive mark, characteristic, or sound indicating identity
OK kids, here's an alternative view---
Linux (for the most part) IGNORES the bios.
Windows does much the same anymore.
Much of a moderm BIOS is really nice for a lot of things, but is really overkill in most apps, and much of the functionality is redundant, as it has to be (or can be) set within Win or Linux via hdparm or some control panel item.
If they want to throw hooks in for DRM-so be it.
The only way DRM from hell will not happen is if people "vote" with their wallets, preaching to the choir here will not help.
My bloody point was that there will probably be a minimal boot loader functionality, all else will move on disc... it makes sense for hdw manufacturers, as returns for screwed BIOS are a huge loss, so moving the main code on disc is a HUGE win for (possibly) most.
This is probably going to turn out to be nothing, just like those rumors that HL2 would only work on nVidia cards.
I've upped my standards, so up yours.
In fact, it was Compaq Ahh ... here's the story
- The Compaq Portable was the first 100% compatible IBM computer clone. Why make an IBM clone? Because the IBM PC was extremely popular, and taken very seriously by businesses looking for a computer system.
In any case, you would think Bill would remember this. He was around. Unless he's getting daft.Problem: Compaq couldn't just copy IBM's BIOS to make their new machine guaranteed IBM compatible, this would be illegal, and easily proven by IBM.
Solution: Reverse-engineer IBM's BIOS. Compaq used two sets of programmers, one group who had access to IBM's source code and another who knew nothing about it. The first group closely looked at the original code, and made notes of exactly what it did. The second group took these notes, and wrote their own BIOS that performed exactly the same. After one year and a million dollars, they were successfull. They had a legal BIOS identical in operation to that of the IBM computer.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Just great, now i can count on getting the latest virus/worm of the week in my BIOS now.
Perhaps we need to think beyond OS's to virtual pc's
or,or, aw shit- let's just get ham licenses and start all over again..
Wow! Now I won't have to wait for the POST to finish before I get a Blue Screen.
I would but I'm a Karma Leper.
If the BIOS is in the operating system, how would you load the operating system? How would it boot? What happens when you simply apply power?
Research shows that 67% of those who use the term "research shows", are just making shit up.
OS and office software is rapidly becoming commoditized. I'm sure even Microsoft knows that with the rate of improvement with free software, it's only a matter of time before $AVERAGE_USER gets wise and its monopolies dry up.
What to do? Well, Microsoft's only chance is to use its current (illegaly attained) monopoly power to grab control of the PC hardware platform. It's easy: "hey AMD, we're not too sure we feel like coming out with a 64-bit version of Windows. Oh sorry, would hurt your bottom line?"
This is the final battle between the open and the closed, IMHO. If Microsoft wins, they'll have dominion over all the land, and software will only interoperate on their say-so, and only if you've paid the rent on the computer you naively think you own. But if enough people come to understand that they have free alternatives, Microsoft is dead meat.
Incidentally, this is why I use linux and recommend it to all my reasonably knowledgeable friends. It's more solid, obviously, but the real reason for me is (I admit it) political. I am opposed to Microsoft's reprehensible business tactics and it is my fondest wish that enough people come to their senses before it's too late.
It's war folks. Which side are you on?
I'm seriously trying to remember the last time I was on slashdot, read one of the chicken little "Microsoft is going to cause the sky to fall!" stories and it turned out to be true.
Hmm... Been reading since 1997 and can't think of a single instance.
Looks like someone has a bad track record, and it isn't Microsoft.
This is a no brainer. Just don't buy any board that carries the Phoenix Technologies BIOS on it. If your in a IT dept. express your view on not using boards with any Phoenix BIOS on them. After all if the board makers can't sell those boards then there is no problem.
First: It is illegal for the Government to do business with a company convicted of monopolistic acts.
Second: Microsoft has been declared a threat to national security
Third: Microsoft has continued to engage in monopolistic acts with the BIOS issue as the latest example. Further examples include Office 11 and incompatability.
Fourth: The BIOS issue could be read to represent collusion for a monopoly purpouses. Since Pheonix is one of the largest BIOS makers for the x86 platform, a collusion of the BIOS maker and the OS manufactuer could increase market power from competing OSes and BIOS makers.
The first step would be to file a complaint with the court that issued the consent decree and initiate contempt of court proceedings. Additionally the complaint would have to ask for redress. Since we want to see Microsoft go the way of the 286, the plantiff should simply ask that the jugde order the Government to not do business with Microsoft.
Now you ask, how does this screw Microsoft. Simple. The government contractors tend to use what the government does. An example: my brother uses Linux at work because the government agency that he contracts for uses Linux. And if the government starts asking for a Star Office file, then the contractors will use the suite that the government is using. In actualality, for every government computer running Linux, five to ten other computers will be affected.
One of the most intriquing arguments to end government business is the fact that the Dept. of Homeland Security stated that continued reliance on Microsoft products is a threat to the national security. Therefore, Microsoft's continued Monopoly not only serves as a threat to consumers but also to the safety of the Government and its citizens. Just some thoughts.
The views expressed are mine own and do not express the views of my employer.
"This was done to forcibly EOL OS 9.2.2"
Given the sheer number of locks ups that happened with the entire 9.x series, this is a good thing.
And I realize some of you had great experiences with 9.x.x, but for me with my apps, it had all the stability of windows 3.1.
Good riddence.
OS X is good, but on my powerbook G3, its so freeking slow that I'll probably buy a new 15" powerbook.... I guess that's the *point*, isn't it.
Microsoft has a monopoly in the same way that Ford has a monopoly on Mustangs.
Guess I'll be keeping my iMac then, eh?
Karma only matters to me now and zen.
Why would you want to run operating systems besides OS X on a mac? If you're someone who does nothing but run iApps on your mac, sure, it doesn't make a great deal of sense. But there are plenty of applications tailored towards linux+KDE/Gnome environment which would be a hassle to port (and a pain to use after porting), and if you're familiar with the linux environments, it makes no sense to move.
The scheduler and working set management code in linux is superior to that of OS X (although OS X is slowly improving), and if you're using an OS X box in a server environment it makes a lot more sense to run linux on it.
If you're a government agency, linux is further along on the security certification road. Also, if you're an aspiring device driver writer, who is working to support interesting new devices, it's easier to write a driver for linux than wade through the intricacies of the IOKit APIs for OS X, and/or Mach client/server messaging and the MIG glue generator.
Apple's hardware is superior to (but doesn't scale quite as well in terms of CPUs) intel based stuff, so running linux on it is more attractive than running linux on intel. And those reasons are just the tip of the iceberg, I'm sure people can think of many more. In other words, while you as a so-called "power" user may not see reasons to run linux on a mac, developers, server administrators and kernel hackers can.
This thread arose because of vague fears that a Microsoft/BIOS manufacturer union could result in hardware on which free OSes like linux would be at a disadvantage. Someone pointed to Apple saying oh look why don't you care if Apple does it? The answer is that Apple hasn't taken active measures to lock other operating systems out of their hardware.
"The slave who knows his master's will and does not get ready...will be be beaten with many blows."Luke 12:47-48
"Yeah, you're really winning the argument if you are using the award winning strategy of saying your opponent is having sex with Bill Gates."
He was referring Melinda Gates.
Although to be honest for half of bill's fortune, he can fuck me in any oriface that suits him.
You've got to be fucking kidding me.
Now my workstation can crash before I start working on that 1k page doc. Yoy know what they [MS] say.. "If it aint broke...lets see if we can fuck it up
is alienate microsoft from their bigger spenders, who want linux, but are forced to have a microsoft system and forced to pay the fees, not to mention this would hurt the motherboard makers as well who would have to pay royalty fees to microsoft to use the new award bios, they'd switch away quickly, and motherboard makers are big players in the industry might I add, hopefully, linux will have a bit more leverage and enough to banish microsoft to a few OEM's (dell, compaq, gateway namely)
sad, really, the award bios has been on one of the best, but it's gonna get bastardized.
it's going to be interesting to say the least, linux torvalds said linux is ready for anything like this. already has DRM compatibility.
all someone has to do is dump the bios into a file and have at it, crack it, find out the "authentication" and voila, compatibility in the next linux kernel release.
microsoft HEAVILY underestimates opensource.
sorry, it's a dupe. :)
c'mon, michael
If opportunity came disguised as temptation, one knock would be enough.
3^2 * 67^1 * 977^1
I, for one, welcome our sick-of-old-jokes overlords
All the Beowulfed clustered Natalie Portman hot grits belong to Signal 11.
Okay, moderators, do your duty. This is all off-topic.
Ever have nostalgia for the old Slashdot? Here you are:
What do training bras teach?
War is God's way of teaching George Bush to find Iraq on the map.
50% of everything is below average.
The Thesaurus was prehistoric reptile with a great vocabulary.
How do they get Teflon to stick to the pans?
How do you know if you run out of invisible ink?
The cost of living is high, but it remains popular.
"Why does everyone always overgeneralize?"
Any attempt to brew coffee with a USB teapot should result in the error code "418: I'm a teapot".
Ethernet - A device for catching the Ether Bunny.
Why do hippies like Oregon? Because there are no jobs.
I'd like to back up my hard drive, but I don't know how to put it into reverse.
Flying Rule #1: Keep the pointy end forward.
The white zone is for loading and unloading only.
I've lost my faith in nihilism.
"Ah yes, the Tomahawk Cruise missle... the rich country's car bomb."
I'm in search of myself. If you find me before I arrive, please have me wait.
If Bill Gates had a nickel for every time Windows crashed...
AAATMA - American Association Against Too Many Acronyms
The metric system is the tool of the devil!! i get forty rods to the hogshead, and that's the way i likes it!!
Moderating trolls and flames as "Offtopic" is Unfair and will be metamoderated as such.
It all started when I thought that inflammable was the opposite of flammable...
If you are angry with someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. Then you'll be a mile away, and you'll have their shoes.
I think someone had a bit too much coffee this morning.
I recommend you stop drinking that stuff.
I didn't do it! Unless I was supposed to do it. . . (hmm. .
Are you senile? First of all, Slashdot's goal is to have an open forum where anyone can post anything without it being deleted. Slashdot is practicing freedom of speech and Taco has taken a lot of shit for this. Also, if you don't like the trolls, that's what we have threshold levels for. Set it to 3 and shut up and read. Jesus Christ you'd think someone with a user ID in the hundred thousands would be a little more clued in.
eom
It has always amazed me how MS has been able to take a stranglehold on something like the x86 standard. It just doesn't seem right somehow. I mean, x86 wouldn't have ever been as successful as it is without IBM making it open. MS keeps finding ways to lead consumers to believe that they own the hardware just as Apple's computers. Maybe this is the problem? Consumers don't see the software as a seperate thing.
IE: What kind of computer do you have?
User: Windows.
We all know what it means and it probably makes most techs cringe. Mac users are able to say, "I have an Apple" and everyone know what they talking about. Maybe this is a flaw in the open style business model that needs to be addressed so that more people are aware that they aren't obligated to run Microsoft firm/software.
-------
---- "Excuse me. Where's the children's gun section?"
"It looks like Microsoft is beginning to flex their marketplace monopoly muscles again, after taking a couple of years off."
when was this? I didn't notice it.
seriously though - after enough money and brute force (like Microsoft always does) they'll probably get their way, and we'll ultimately have no choice but to purchase Palladium-equipped BIOSes that only boot Microsoft-based OSes. Sure, there will be small niche players that provide computers that'll still boot Linux... and there's always Apple...
When IBM originally developed the PC, one of the basic concepts behind it was the separation of the BIOS (on a ROM chip) and the operating system (which should go on a writable drive). They won't be happy about this.
Hopefully, motherboard manufacturers will see the terror in this and use a different BIOS in their boards. But if not, then I will defect to Apple. I've always thought OS X was nice...
But let's look on the bright side. Linux users are always complaining about dependancy hell. Now Windows is worse, because the kernel depends on certain BIOS chips!
rpm -ivh win32_6.0
error: motherboard "XX-YYY" >= xx.yy required
Hypocrisy is the 8th deadly sin.
Unless I woke up in crazy-verse this morning, no way every chipset, motherboard or cpu company (Cough..AMD Cough) would ever allow it to become a standard. So, net result, Phoenix wastes/spends R&D resources on a hunk of silicon that they have to patch every 14.666 minutes. Maybe they sell a hunk of windows only machines, but it will never become the standard, not even Intel would be that stupid.
And microsoft would get bored with it...
do NOT fool yourself into thinking DRM was purely some kind of evil scheme to Get Your Money.
I agree that it did not start there, but it has rapidly become obvious that it now is more about getting all of the money (yours, mine, everyone elses).
Regional encoding does not stop piracy, neither does encrypting DVDs. People just copy them with the encryption entact and they play on your regular DVD player. The "regional" thing is about wanting to control who sells DVD decryption tech along with the players, and about controlling who was allowed to sell players where.
I expect the RIAA wishes they had thought of that one, imagine a studio owned software company recieving fat royalty checks for every CD player sold. As DRM becomes more ubiquitous, expect to see that and other ncorporate market controls coming down the pike.
And you can also expect the studio owned (AOL) and software vendor owned (MSN) attempt dropping non-DRM content from thier networks as well. Corporate censorship for the web, in the name of protecting the artists, writers and musicians. If it's not DRM, it must be copyright infringing!
So Well use encryption accross the network to avoid this.
BUT NO! You must be a terrorist! If you don't have anything to hide, why are you hiding it? Only drug dealers and terrorist need to use encryption if they're not law enforcement, corpoations, and intelligence agents, but that's OK, because they are the GOOD GUYS looking out for your saftey, the ecconomy, and the "American Way of Life". "Patriot Act III", DMCA-II, all brought to you by the Department of Justice, Homeland Security, and Microsoft. Keeping America safe for Americans. (I hope you fit their definition.)
[/RANT]
In all seriousness, if a large company can profit from DRM, or a government can control or monitor a population by use of DRM, by manipulating the markets (and content) in the software, communications, media, film, music, and publishing industries with this, then they will eventually attempt it.
At least in America (and many other countries), the outcome is somewhat dependant on the public's acceptance of this and the perception of a need for it.
We can always hope.
Read, L
Microsoft moves to integrate Windows with BIOS
<i>Matthew Broersma</i>
<i>ZDNet UK</i>
<i>October 03, 2003, 17:25 BST</i>
A deal with BIOS maker Phoenix Technologies would allow the operating system to directly control hardware. It also raises concerns over who controls the software in PCs
Microsoft has expanded its relationship with BIOS maker Phoenix Technologies in a deal designed to more closely integrate the basic building blocks of the PC with the Windows operating system.
The relationship, announced this week, is designed to make PCs simpler and more reliable, the companies said. The move is likely to put consumer rights advocates on their guard, however, since both Microsoft and Phoenix are involved in plans to integrate digital rights management (DRM) technology at the operating system and hardware level. DRM is designed to give copyright owners more control over how users make use of software and content, but has been criticised as eroding consumer rights.
A BIOS, or basic input/output system, is the software that ties the operating system to a PC's hardware. Traditionally, it has carried out basic tasks such as hardware and system configuration, and has been standardized and simple enough to allow the installation of alternative operating systems, including Linux.
Phoenix's Core System Software (CSS) is a next-generation BIOS with a more sophisticated integration of operating system and hardware, for example making it easier for system administrators to remotely monitor the hardware configurations of their systems. CSS is designed for non-PC systems such as blade servers and embedded industrial devices as well as traditional desktops.
Microsoft said integration should mean simpler and more reliable computers. "This is a pivotal change for the industry, and it will rapidly advance serviceability, deployment, and management for servers, mobile devices, and desktops," said Microsoft general manager of Windows hardware Tom Phillips, in a statement. "Effectively, Phoenix is creating an entirely new category of system software."
Microsoft said the next-generation BIOS would allow future versions of Windows to manage server blades when they are connected to a system, without needing to be turned on. The BIOS would also allow better control of unauthorized devices connected to a system, Microsoft said.
Phoenix is one of the biggest BIOS providers, its customers including four of the top five PC manufacturers. Its products are also used by consumer electronics makers such as Pioneer, Matsushita, Sony and Toshiba.
Both Microsoft and Phoenix are currently arguing for closer integration of Windows with PC hardware, and DRM integrated throughout. Microsoft is planning to tie Windows DRM features to the hardware platform via its controversial Next Generation Secure Computing Base (NGSCB) project, formerly known as Palladium. NGSCB is associated with the next version of Windows, code-named Longhorn, which is due in about two years' time.
Phoenix recently said it is touting round a BIOS with built-in DRM technology to major PC manufacturers. In September the company said it had developed a prototype of its Core Management Engine (CME) including DRM from Orbid. The DRM technology would allow content providers to identify which PCs and devices were authorised to play particular files, more effectively controlling content distribution, file-trading and moving software from one machine to another, according to Phoenix.
Phoenix said the DRM-enabled CME was not part of Microsoft's NGSCB, but that the technology was complementary. The CME would allow PC makers to embed digital rights management directly into the hardware, though they would have the option of allowing users to turn it off.
Consumer electronics makers are particularly interested in the technology, according to Phoenix.
Get your free Dropbox account with 2 GB Free storage!
That's what moderation is supposed to do. If it annoys enough people it gets modded down. Try adjusting your preferences to negatively weigh "funny" and "redundant" and you'll get rid of most of them.
I use Windows 2000 every day at work. It's shitty. It still crashes, except by default it automatically clears the embarrassing blue screen and just spontaneously reboots.
Just today my laptop suddenly decided it didn't want to recognize the network any more. Wouldn't renew a DHCP lease, even. Reboot, everything's fine. It's never done that before, so I'm hoping it's a one-off thing.
The machine at work will get stuck with one or more modifier keys pressed, about once a week. Sometimes you can shake it back to normal by switching between windows a few times. Sometimes you have to reboot.
Our admin assistant had the same problem... I found out because by the time she'd worked out what was going on, she'd accidentally dragged the task bar across the screen, and couldn't work out how to drag it back.
Sure, it's stable compared to Windows 95 or 98. I haven't had it randomly reboot in weeks, it just acts all flaky and I have time to do a controlled reboot. It still sucks though.
I should point out that I'm talking about three different machines, OS installed by three different people. I say this because I know the Windoze fanboys will try to find an excuse like "Oh, you have a bad motherboard" or "Oh, you must have an incompetent Windows admin".
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
The answer is quite simple. It's the same reason why Bush is on his crusade, it's the same reason why Quebec wants to seperate from Canada, it's the same reason why Sweden rejected the Euro, it's the same reason why a million things... including why the Nazis ever existed.
We are in a time of recession, and as such, everyone is slowly turning into famished rats trying to gnaw at anything they can get their hands on.
Call me an idealist, or old school (even though I'm in my early twenties), but this just exposes how sad the human race in general is...
They can mandate that there be no BIOS other than MS BIOS on the motherboard or they can't have the designed for Windows XXX logo. You wouldn't want a "choose your BIOS" option to confuse users and interfere with the wonderful integration and smooth operation now, would you?
I'm going to give up computing and buy a big pen and a giant stack of notepads.
I can see it now.
BIOS Error. Can not continue to boot.
Continue to boot to reinstall your BIOS.
Will go good with that Keyboard error "press F12 to continue"
Didn't Lucky Green patent using a bios to only boot a trusted operating system? The uspto.gov site seems to be down, but I thought this was what he did after meeting with Microsoft (to stop the Trusted Platform Crap from happening).
The Right Reverend K. Reid Wightman,
Apple hardware is closed to third party vendors?
I guess that means there are no Mac CPU upgrades from third party vendors... no disk controller cards from third party vendors... no thriving market in third-party optical and hard drives... and I'm sure Apple keeps a lock on the hardware so you can't install Linux or BSD. Yeah, Microsoft would just be doing what Apple do.
Or maybe you're full of it.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
Don't assume just because we use Linux personally that we don't face the reality of using Windows in our professional lives. I run a whole server room full of Win2k boxes. They are garbage. Do you know how much time I've spent installing patches and rebooting locked/frozen/fried boxes? My disgust for Microsoft comes from years of experience with their products, not just their predatory business practices.
On the other hand, I also run a bunch of AIX and Linux boxes. They run some of our most critical applications. I never have to reboot them. I will repeat that. I NEVER have to reboot them.
Yes, Windows 2000 is better than Windows 95. Big deal. My wristwatch is better than Windows 95.
All your BIOS are belong to us?
Uma Thurman and Bill Gates in...
KILL BILL!
Microsoft board room meeting:
Presenter: "We're going to sell a PC. But we can't really let people do what they want with it. We need to protect it. With a bios! Ya we'll protect it with a bios!"
Bill: "What are we going to call it?"
Presenter: "Well we need a symbol.. that represents not being able to do what you want."
Bill: "X?"
Presenter: "Yes! And another symbol that suggests it already does what you probably need it to do."
Bill: "XBox?"
The idea, not the year.
Painted bleaker and rather more plausible.
Wouldn't it be a lovely twist of fate if the black hats turn out to be the saviors of Information Technology?
I usually do not become this pissed but this is serious. The only thing that can come of this developement is the advancement of the PC in China. Where the peoples bios will be developed in response.
We can only hope that the Asian manufactures start cranking out cheap non Phoenix based boards in response.
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
This is simple. We just won't buy motherboards that have a Phoenix Bios. I suggest you also email Phoenix to let them know they are going to lose consumers because we will not stand for this.
Volunteer Mozilla developer, RPI Student.
Homer: Oh. [voice rising] I'll bash you good!
Look all they are really talking about is including the bios in the OS. If it's built into windows then it can be build into linux and bsd.
Think about one of the big backers of linux right now, you know IBM. They still make Bios, we have a bunch of IBM Net Vista's at work, with GASP IBM BIOS. It would'nt be hard for IBM to come up with a generic version if thier BIOS and donate it to linux, just think of everything else they've thrown into linux. Im sure they will have 2 flavors one with DRM for those manufacters that want to include DRM and one that doesn't have it.
This is just hastening the demise of Windows as the pre-eminent desktop. OS
So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
"Phoenix's Core System Software (CSS) is a next-generation BIOS with a more sophisticated integration of operating system and hardware, for example making it easier for system administrators to remotely monitor the hardware configurations of their systems."
As with all computer software, complexity increases the chance of bugs and often also security exploits. How can Microsoft and Phoenix assure these "enhancements" to the BIOS don't do this? They can't? Well, then we might have an interesting future with really messy exploits ahead (with potential for viruses to gain direct hardware access and control), and also BIOS crashes due to the added complexity.
I just had a crazy idea.
You know the old hacker urban legend, which made it into Superman III, about "write a program for a bank which takes all the leftover fractions of a cent and puts them into a bank account"?
What if some group of virus writers wrote such a program back in the late 1980s, made millions, and, now that they were a part of the lazy rich, looked around for a way to make virus writing easier.
And so they bought up a controlling share in Microsoft, or kidnapped Bill's pet dog, or in some way made it possible for them to dictate Microsoft policy. So much so that all of the security exploits in Microsoft products are there deliberately, and deliberately fixed slowly.
In a way, it makes Microsoft make more sense.
What? only shell gas will fit into my car..? Well, i'll show them.
"Sad thing is, Microsoft is often blamed for problems caused by other vendors. "
Well there's the quagmire.
MS (and fans) crow about all the apps their platform has, but a lot of those apps cause problems. Damned and double damned.
..and sells the old ladies back their fat asses too I guess.
The time for action is close at hand! Choose your targets carefully and don't let your anger skew your judgment. "It is necessary to distinguish clearly between sabotage, a revolutionary and highly effective method of warfare, and terrorism, a measure that is generally ineffective and indiscriminate in its results, since it often makes victims of innocent people and destroys a large number of lives that would be valuable to the revolution."
I wouldn't buy a computer with an OS-only BIOS. Well maybe a Mac, but definitely not a Windows-only machine.
OK NG - now you're just taking up space.
It's irrelevant whether you or anyone considers an Xbox a PC. It is simply another M$ product that runs Windoz in a certain market. Just like a pocket PC, it's yet another vehicle for M$ to spread their crapware. Again it is appalling to find *anyone* willing to argue that there is a rightful place for yet another inferior M$ "product" in a niche market.
The Xbox is most certainly an M$ tendril attempt to extend their presence into another arena. The problem here, nogator, is that M$ has far too much pull in the personal computing world. Does the Xbox compute? IT most certainly does. DO you personally run applications on it? You most certainly do. Regardeless of the fact that you, and anyone else, who does not consider a game console a "PC"
are wrong in that any of these game consoles have more computing power (and far and away more graphics horsepower) than "PCs" not more than 10 years old, is beside the point. The point is that this BIOS strategy will reveal M$ to truly be the POS company that it is - and - happily, the more it pushes to control BIOS the more people will abandon its OS. If people at work/home cannot control their own PC (accepted definition) people really will start looking for alternatives. Remember, nongator, the great thing about a pc (M$ or Apple) was that *you* had control over it. *You* could load anything you wanted. If Windoz controls what you can play, load, replay, record or create even you will one day throw it out the window.
peace out - remember, freedom is essential.
Unless someone decided to run linux on it ....
any volunteers?
wait until you get a load of winPCs.
Microsoft will never stop this shit until we get a Justice department with at least one set of balls between the spineless bastards.
Anyone who believes that Microsoft will not use this to make Linux incapable of running on MOBOs with these BIOS, take the gum out of your mouth and raise you hand.
They really need to bust this company up into at least three separate entities.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
Oops -- drunk and forgot to get to the point.
None of the "Big Three" have to use Phoenix BIOS if it gets too expensive or restrictive. They all have their own inhouse BIOS which works just as well.
And if Microsoft's three biggest customers don't buy in, the plan is pretty much DOA.
"Microsoft said the next-generation BIOS would allow future versions of Windows to manage server blades when they are connected to a system, without needing to be turned on. The BIOS would also allow better control of unauthorised devices connected to a system, Microsoft said."
Oh, I feel so much better knowing that Microsoft will use all of its famous anti-cracking abilities to better secure my network.
It gives me such a warm and fuzzy feeling knowing that a company with suck a spottless security record is going to take the lead in this area. I can finally sleep at night.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
When they say unauthorised devices do they mean unauthorised my me or them!
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
I bet you've never had your fingers on a real UNIX Workstation keyboard, and really don't know anything about Unix at all.
If you can't make the standard "vendor key" functional on your OS, either go buy a Model M or kill yourself for being a shitty tech.
What about a duel bios system? Soder some wires to the bios socket, which then goes to a switch, and then goes to 2 bios chips. One the microsoft one, the other is a linux-compatable bios. To boot to a different OS you would just need to flip the switch.
All misspellings and grammatical errors in the above post are intentional and part of my artistic expression.
Apple threatened to kill OS9 booting based purely on a date they picked from the calendar. Nothing technical about it.
First software, I believe. It's been getting more and more important for companies to protect their products. First came CD keys for online play. People came up with CD key generators.
Uh first came online CD keys? Try again. Floppys with bad sectors (King's Quest anyone), hardware dongles, serial numbers, sheets printed in unreasonable colors, I've got a full binder of stuff you needed to run a game in the old days. In fact, the scaling back to a simple CD key is because they finally figured out it wasn't effective and it pissed off your legitimate customers.
I use Daemon Tools also on my own, legitimately purchased CDs. If necessary I get the required crack so I don't have to look for the damn CD (if you knew my room, you wouldn't question why). Personally I see it as the last left-over of a time past. True central online services like MMORPGs or the UT2003 central server require CD keys, but for those I consider it part of the ToS for connecting to them, not a copy protection, at least not an effective one.
I recently went back to Windows 2000 from XP. Why? Because when I copied my XP installation from my 120GB disk to my new 160GB disk, XP freaked totally and mentally. Couldn't get to a reactivation screen, nothing. Wouldn't allow me to install over either, just wierd errors. I can pretty safely say, it'll be a cold day in hell before XP or any future XP-line OS ends up on my disk ever again. By the time Windows 2000 is EoL'd, it'll be Linux. Tried using the Red Hat server in the corner as desktop, now if only I didn't miss my Windows apps that much...
Morale is: Pirates will manage to pirate it. Do not piss off your customers in the futile process.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
if it wasn't for M$, there would be no Phoenix, Award, or any other BIOS makers. We would all still be using IBM machines.
Amiga, here i come!
grey wolf
LET FORTRAN DIE!
Give me a break, this paranoid conspiricy theorist is insightful? informative? bah! Overrated, Troll is more like it.
George Bush + Linux = "I will not let information get in the way of the fight against Windows"
all your bios are belong to us
dillie
Microsoft would already be very happy if they could split the PC market into two parts: a low-end, Windows-only part for the desktop, and a high-end, server market (running either Windows or some form of UNIX). What do you think would happen to Linux acceptance outside the server world if you suddenly needed a mega-expensive server motherboard just to run it? The strength of Linux has always been that it could run on cheap, ubiquitous systems. They could very well succeed in taking that away.
...which is pretty much just as bad or worse. It's already in effect in some EU member states, and more are basicly ironing it out. They're talking sometime during 2004 here.
As for the rest of "the rest of the world", I'm sure they're working on "fixing" that problem.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
I can't seriously see them not fretting over Microsoft locking people using PC's into their solutions only.
Being as Windows is so easily exploited by viruses, I can only imagine what will happen with the BIOS is integrated. There will be millions of people with comptuers that won't boot anymore.
Phoenix aren't the only people out there making BIOSes. We don't have to buy them.
500 odd comments and not one mention of SCO (unless I missed one), whats going on?
Or, you could do it the easy way.
If opportunity came disguised as temptation, one knock would be enough.
3^2 * 67^1 * 977^1
I still favor Linux over Windows when it comes to stability, but there are several other facets of the Windows operation system and Microsoft philosophy that turn me (and likely other Slashdotters) off. First, security. I don't like my browser or mail client doing things I'm not explicitly aware of. I cannot use Windows with a clear conscience because of IE's and Outlook's persistent security failures. Add in IIS for Windows incarnations with IIS installed an running. This is compounded by the fact that these pieces of software cannot be uninstalled. I don't really care about the monopoly angle with the bundling of IE/Outlook. Linux distros "bundle" similar items if not more which I like. The difference is that if someone finds a bug in Mozilla that puts me or my network at risk, I can wipe it clean from my hard drive and fall back on alternative software packages.
Cost is another obvious difference, but one that I think will eventually catch up to Microsoft more than any antitrust case or business practice. It's evolution, baby. The personal computer is still a wonderful, versatile thing. I use it to write, program, listen to music, watch movies, capture/edit/burn digital video, and game. But it isn't a new concept on which a business can build on and dominate market share any more. There are a growing number of open source software projects that meet or even exceed their commercial competitors capabilities. OpenOffice, Mozilla, and Apache to name a few. There's three software projects right there that are relevant to the corporate world's preoccupation with information technology.
Commercial software that meets a need or niche that open source solutions cannot fill is going the way of the dinosaurs. They had their chance, but it's not the way I see software evolving. Why depend on a single commercial source for solutions when you can support a core group of developers in producing a piece of software that everyone can benefit from?
I don't so much find Windows to be inferior. It's just that Linux and the canon of open source software built upon it make so much more sense financially, socially, and from an engineering standpoint.
From this, came (1) an acceptance of slavery, thus justifying the New England abuses of the Industrialization. That, in turn, drove a desire of the New England Industrialists to seize the South for their benefit, as well as providing a pretext for the ci vil war.
The ongoing abuses of the industrialists, meanwhile, drove the westward expansion and the policy of manifest destiny. The civil war, then, centralized power in the hands of the federal government, thus providing power to the policies of manifest destiny, and driving an imperial attitude among our leaders.
With the imperial attitude came the need in our leaders' hearts to be the ruler of the world, from Roosevelt's "Great White Fleet", to our presence in WWI and WWII.
Now, our sending our boys off to WWII proved to be a different kind of downfall. With all the young men and women in love, probably going to get married in 5 years anyhow, the news of going off to war resulted in the baby boom, and a lot of premarital sex, or shotgun-fast weddings. Now, in general their intentions were right, and even where girls did get pregnant out of marriage, they still did get married. But then when it came time to teach their kids morality, they couldn't do it. They couldn't bring themselves to say "what we did was wrong" to themselves -- and therefore, they by and large taught their kids "just don't do it. People don't do that kind of thing."
The kids grew up hearing this, and immediately deduced "what kind of hypocrisy is this?!?" So we had the sexual revolution, and alongside that an explosion in psychoactive drugs.
The sexual revolution is something we never really go over. It resulted dually in a general loss of faith in God and libertine attitudes, which brought a host of problems: extreme wrongful profiteering became normal; legalized theft reached new highs with lawsuits becoming an accepted way to become rich. Our television started deifying consumerism and sexuality; and we as we started importing the products of theft, we had to export corruption and death in unimaginably large numbers of ways.
That, since then, has driven a great hatred of the ugly American. (But not to be Eurocentric, France and Germany, even Italy and Spain, all have engendered similar hatred, but not to the extremes that America has.)
But the lack of faith in God also drives fear. So you have 300 million (or more) fear-driven, consumerist, theft-friendly Americans.
What, exactly, could be more natural than the music piracy, the RIAA/MPAA tactics, DRM, and the Patriot act?
Yeah, you can take it back to the 3/5 compromise.
But that's the short sighted answer. The long-sighted answer would take it back to the first humans.
Or maybe, the longest-sighted answer of all would be to say "since we played our own role in this, we have earned what we got."
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
Quote: "Due to excessive bad posting from this IP or Subnet, comment posting has temporarily been disabled. If it's you, consider this a chance to sit in the timeout corner. If it's someone else, this is a chance to hunt them down. If you think this is unfair, please email moderation@slashdot.org with your MD5'd IPID and SubnetID."
"It is simply another M$ product that runs Windoz in a certain market."
It runs a variant of Windows to boot up. That's a far cry from making it a PC.
"Again it is appalling to find *anyone* willing to argue that there is a rightful place for yet another inferior M$ "product" in a niche market."
It's a good game machine. Lots of people own one and are quite happy. If they're unhappy, it's because of the games provided for it.
"The problem here, nogator, is that M$ has far too much pull in the personal computing world."
Maybe, but this is the gaming world.
" DO you personally run applications on it? You most certainly do."
100% of the applications are games, hence a game machine.
"The point is that this BIOS strategy will reveal M$ to truly be the POS company that it is "
That's certainly possible. I'm not defending Microsoft's strategy here.
"Remember, nongator, the great thing about a pc (M$ or Apple) was that *you* had control over it."
Yes, that's a PC. You can't do that with an X-BOX, hence not a PC, it's a console.
" If Windoz controls what you can play, load, replay, record or create even you will one day throw it out the window."
That may very well be the future. I don't know why you're preaching this to me as if I was saying MS was a great benevolent company or something.
"Nanogator is an idiot again AND probably works for"
If I'm the idiot, then how come my subjects fit in the subject line? BTW, if you accuse people of working for Microsoft, then you musn't have much of a rebuttal, eh?
P.S. Why are you trying so hard to bug me anyway? I must really be getting under your skin. Posting 4 times anonymously as if I don't know who you are? Heh. Ass.
"Derp de derp."
A lot of negativity here, but I would rather LIKE to control BIOS from within windows, instead of having to reboot.
Nah, some funny remarks I enjoy reading. Well, either moderators start hitting "I for one..." comments with extreme prejudice or some client side scripting could save the /. servers from folding.
Mi domando chi à il mandante di tutte le cazzate che faccio - Altan
If we all send Phoenix an email they might get the message that a lot of people don't want this.
The lazy can cut and paste the one below and send it to custsupport@phoenix.com
The less lazy might want to change a few words or write their own email.
---
Customer support,
I don't believe your recent deal with microsoft is going to work out
in the interests of your customers.
Microsoft aim to make it harder to use other operating systems on the same
hardware as theirs. They are using their existing monopoly in operating systems to produce a monopoly in BIOS software. As alternative operating systems become more widespread your new BIOS will be less competitive in the marketplace.
This deal will also cause your customers to become suspicious of your motives and less inclined to choose your BIOS where others can be used.
Personally I don't intend to buy motherboards with your BIOS, or recommend that any of the companies I work for do until this deal is cancelled. It is important to me that hardware I buy is general purpose and can run linux or FreeBSD as well as windows.
Regards,
-Your Name-
Okay, first of all, yes, this guy's post is a bit of science fiction at this point. So was 1984, when it was written, and 1984 came and went, and we didn't have that situation. We didn't have that situation at that point, anyhow.
Nonetheless, 1984 *was* insightful. It provided clues into the nature of how politics worked. It was insightful in much the same way as, say, Machiavelli's "The Prince".
Well, the grandparent post is insightful, too, because it provides insight into the neoliberal capitalist mentality. Caveat: Neoliberal capitalism is not capitalist, nor is it liberal, nor is it neo; it goes back as far as history, because self-styled "great men" have always wanted lots of slaves and lots of concubines, and have been willing to pillage to get them..
So though I wouldn't bet in favor of the grandparent post actually happening exactly as he said (informative), it does display some insight into the nature of our problem (insightful).
As for it being conspiracy-theorist, has anyone ever claimed that conspiracies never happen? (French Revolution)
Or paranoid -- I remember when pop-radio-psychologist (at the time) Selfish Sally (Jesse Raphael) was talking to a guy that said "my family says I'm paranoid", and Selfish Sally said "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you." Which didn't do the guy any psychological good at all, I'm sure, but the point stands. It would be paranoid to think that this is necessarily actually going to happen in this way. Nonetheless, it is not paranoid to posit it as a possibility.
Mod that post back up. Mod it insightful.
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
scared the poop outta me.
Great. Now i can get those nice bluescreens before even starting the os :)
I already wrote to Phoenix and told them that until further notice I will spec PCs with non-Phoenix BIOSes and will suggest clients to do the same and why, EVEN FOR WINDOWS-ONLY PCs. No matter that the product is still at vapor stage - they should begin to understand that a microsofted BIOS is potentially a chip non gratum.
Too bad none of the 9/11 Ts were intelligent enough to fly one of those jets to Redmond...
Preserve old classics: copy your collection onto all hard drives.
Has everyone forgotten PhoenixNet BIOS? STFW if you haven't heard of it. This is actually Phoenix's 2nd attempt to co-opt every PC running their BIOS but this time with the support of the monopolistic marketing gorilla Microsoft.
This is only part of a distressing trend that I see in the marketplace right now. For a quick example, take the DSL line that I installed early this year. The best deal came from SBC Yahoo Ameritech. Turns out that the only way to run it was with their proprietary software (damned near 500M of it), on one machine (no routers allowed), with IE 6.0 (installed automagically with no choice for me to refuse) and spyware included FREE! This lasted 2 days before I found a local ISP with none of these restrictions at about the same price.
It seems that any seller in the marketplace now takes it as their God-given right to abuse you and invade your privacy simply because you bought their product!
If this really concerns you, then you have only one course of action: be aware of the technology that you use (the Web is wonderful source of info, use it!); support OSS (if you can code, code for it; if you can write, help with documentation for it; if nothing else, talk about it and keep it in the public eye. You don't have to use it; the mere fact that it exists as an alternative will help keep companies on the up-and-up); raise holy hell! (if your banking software supports only IE, complain, even if you use IE; if you sign up for SBC DSL and find what I did, complain like hell when you cancel and make sure they know WHY you are canceling, I did!)
Remember, these corporations do not exist without us and our money. Vote with your feet! The only reason that Phoenix's first attempt at co-opting computers with PhoenixNet failed was because of public outcry about it.
It's called OpenFirmware, dumbass, and it's not Apple's special recipe, Sun uses it too.
Apple can do whatever they want, it's their product. The hardware isn't Microsoft's product. Fundamental difference.
I wouldn't expect someone that uses Microsoft products to understand that though. Don't be upset.
Go back to jacking off with your Wal-Mart PC, Wintel loser.
What percentage of the population really knows anything about Unix at all? What percentage of the population knows how to make the "standard" vendor key "functional"? Is that sliver of the population really going to make a differnce in the market?
BTW, can you link to the "standard" that specifies the vendor key for me? Can you tell me the function that a key with a flying window should have on my home built SuSE machine? Didn't think so.
MS is found guilty of abusing its monopoly power.
/.
Netscape is gone thanks to anticompetitve practices.
The PC manufacturers are hostages to MS.
But all is well, and any concerns are just overblown stupidity in
We are approaching the IT monoculture were one company alone has the power to decide where the whole industry is going.
But no, that must be idiots like me, that when faced with a XP machine for the first time could not copy tracks of my CD unless it was done in MS's propietary format.
Fucking paranoid me....
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Anyone know why FORTH, specifically, was chosen as the language of choice for OpenBIOS? Did it have anything to do with data layout, or something like that?
...
Just curious, I know its off-topic, and I guess I could go and google for myself to find out
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
If they fail to keep the monopoly, they can also settle for just their piece of it, primarily home market and entertainment. If your work station is taken over by Linux, tough. But when you come home, Microsoft want you to fire up Windows Media Center and view their DRM-protected content (or well not their content, through their system). They'd *like* to have it on the workstation too, with DRM'd-documents etc, but they're not going to give up even if that should fail...
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Firstly, there are other computer flavors around, like PPC for example.
Secondly, I will certainly don't need anything more than a Pentium 4 HT at 3.2 GHz and a Geforce FX 5800.
Thirdly, Linux can't be ignored. And it runs on a vast range of hardware. And it's getting better every day.
So, when the time comes, I will say "f*** Microsoft". There are alternatives.
Time For the Call to ARMS
There is an open source team out there that is working to make an Open Firmware solution for the Intel architecture. The project is called OpenBIOS. I hope this team creates a solution that will be taken up by the motherboard manufacturers, as I feel a new alternative is needed to the current BIOS. The BIOS as it stands still has limitations that are over 20 years old, such as 640K being defined as main memory - the rest being considered 'extended' memory.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
insulting someone here over platform. I use a mac. My kid has a pc. She may think that I am a loser for other reasons but not because I use a mac.
If I was Michael Dell then, as a greedy, money-obsessed businessman (I know what I'm talking about -- let's just say I've had a (doubtful, I might add) "pleasure" to meet this guy), I would be going to consider what is more important: my thin margins on few OSen-less boxen, or huge discounts on OEM Windows licenses. (Let us not kid ourself, Michael and Bill are hardly strangers.)
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
I don't know if this is the way it's always going to be. I would imagine that it might be a feature that an alternate OS simply wouldn't use.
But a Windows-only motherboard? I dunno about that. I don't think that our selection of motherboards is ever going to be windows-only. I highly doubt it, I would almost be willing to bet money on it.
Smells like it might be time to start an open source BIOS project.
[100% ISO 646 Compliant]
SVM, ERGO MONSTRO.
Please excuse my "complaining on Slashdot," but I find having freedom extremely important. I do really hope I am not alone in that belief.
Of course. TCPA will *never* refuse to obey our commands, should we choose to become second class citizens having absolutely no access to mainstream media whatsoever. One only has to wonder if that is a bad thing indeed...
But jokes aside. Do you think University which publishes online papers as Windows Word today is not going to use "Trusted" Word tomorrow? Do you think a bank which has IE-only website will change its mind when there's finally a way to make sure people indeed connect only with "Trusted" IE?
What about government websites? Are they going to allow "untrusted hacker software" to connect to their servers? Don't even let me start about Internet voting... The list goes on.
Let me guess what OS are you using right now... Oh, right, I thought so. So you're lucky. But are you going to give a Blinux using person few thousands dollars for software she will need soon? I hope so.
Right! Are you really so naive to believe we'll be able to run our own kernals as part of our "trusted" OSen? Please...
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
ms may (will) do this, and they probably will accomplish it,.. but it won't be here. i'll buy something else..
...then yes we do. Unless there is an explicit escape which allows flashing the things across to LinBIOS, and then good luck with anything even vaguely bleeding-edge by way of hardware.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
With my next computer in a couple years, I risk loss of even more software compatability, potential issues with odd hardware (such as Saitek game controllers, which can be a bit finnicky in the driver department, and my LaserJet 1000, which is probably at minor risk if Longhorn is too different from XP), and now Microsoft's infiltrating the BIOS so I'd be rather lucky if hardware manufacturers like Dell don't start trying to lock out Linux. If legacy software is likely to to run and Microsoft starts mucking around with the BIOS in ways potentially harmful to the functionality of other operating systems, I'm getting a Mac.
TAKE OUR BIOS!!!
Don't forget this stuff too.
I'm out of my tree just now but please feel free to leave a banana.
Things like this make me want to start something like MoveOn.org for the tech world, something that combats monopolistic practices by tech companies and telcos by lobbying through fax and e-mail. MoveOn has shown it can work and have some results, whether you like their politics or not. But I'm too lazy/poor to start organizing something like that. Anyone else?
That's gotta fit into your schema somewhere
Anyway, what does anyone care? This is Slashdot, and the facts are irrelevant.
And why do I post at 0 when my karma is "excellent?"
I'm out of my tree just now but please feel free to leave a banana.
This is what Apple's BIOS contains.
I'm out of my tree just now but please feel free to leave a banana.
I recently had an eye-opening experience with Win2k. A computer-illiterate friend of mine managed to acquire the SoBig and Blaster diseases so badly that his Win98 machine was brought to a near standstill. I decided to upgrade it to Win2k for him (BIG mistake). My first try was successful, everything went smooth as silk, and I returned the box to him with confidence that it would be a far more satisfying machine. Alas, I had forgotten how inherently insecure MS OS's really are (I've used nothing but Linux since 1996 or so), and the next day I received a panic'd call, bewailing the machine's even poorer performance (friend had gone on-line and quickly reacquired the worm and the virus). Okay, my bad, I should have known better, so I called in the help of a friend who knows how to secure a Microsoft system. We reinstalled Win2k and then spent (I kid you not) nearly three hours upgrading and hardening the system against intrusion. You probably know the drill: get the patch, apply it, reboot, get the next patch, apply it, reboot, and so on and so on ad nauseam. Maybe you like Win2k, and maybe you're savvy enough to harden it yourself, but you should ask yourself why MS doesn't do so when the system comes out of the box. There are in fact a lot of other good reasons to despise MS, but the basic security issues are truly in first place. Never again will I assist anyone with a MS system on their machine. My advice will be to either stop using a computer or learn how to use Linux. Draconian solution ? Jeez, a near idiot can learn enough about using Linux in the time it takes to harden a system that costs considerably more than any mainstream Linux distro and really delivers so much less.
This simply means a new itch will develop and be scratched: the Open Source BIOS.
Most decent mobos these days can have the BIOS reflashed; it will simply become part of the linux installation process.
There's always a way around such bullshit; when there's not, the products die a well deserved and miserable death.
When they start building DRM dongles into the mobos I will simply not buy them. Cash is a language even Micro$uck understands.
~Later
Death Dances Only With The Living
Well, ultimately, I'm all for people running whatever hardware/OS/software combination they like best and think makes them most productive.
I just don't quite agree that it makes sense to try to hold Apple up on a pedestal as "superior to Microsoft" simply based on the idea that they haven't "taken active measures to lock other operating systems out of their hardware".
Apple has, arguably, done even worse things; attempting to lock users out from upgrading their Apple hardware to run more recent Apple OS's and upgraded 3rd. party hardware.
They've done firmware updates to the Blue & White G3 systems to stop people from using 3rd. party processor upgrades (Sonnet G4's and so forth). The vendors had to develop work-arounds just so people could keep using the upgrades they purchased. They've taken steps to prevent adding certain types of expansion cards. (The latest OS X update removed compatibility for several types of PCI USB cards, for example. Doesn't really make sense to spend effort to take out perfectly good, working code - unless you have ulterior motives, does it? I'd wager it's another attempt to make life difficult for people trying to keep OS X going on "legacy" PowerMacs that didn't have built-in USB ports.)
As for OS's like Linux (developed by community effort), I don't know if it matters much at all if manufacturers "take active measures" to lock them out. Precious few manufacturers have been exactly "open" with Linux developers about putting together working code for their products anyway. (Look at the hassles and time it took just to get software "Winmodems" going in Linux, and many still don't. Look at all the problems getting printers to work. Look at the video card manufacturers who refused to release info on how to use their acceleration features in their chipsets. Every time Linux clears one of these hurdles, it's because people worked hard at decyphering it on their own.)
For not modding up this tired joke as "funny".
it can set new records on how quickly it crashes.
Why did I lurk so long before registering for a Slashdot account? I could have had a Slashdot ID of less than 100000.
The "vendor key" sends a standard keycode just like any other key. Unix has traditionally defined a "meta" key. 2+2=4
If SuSE can't handle the key, then complain to them, not Microsoft. 30 seconds on Google tells you how to do it.
complain about windows and then off to play window based games.
"And if that illusion makes MS die fast in a horrible way then I'm stickin to it. I'm not interested how good or bad it is, I just want MS go away for good."
If you get your wish, what will the OSS Community copy off of?
"Derp de derp."
It's worse than IBM. Remember that while IBM held rights to their BIOS, they published commented source code right in the PC technical manual, together with a full circuit schematic for the motherboard. Can anyone tell me a MB manufacturer today who publishes circuit schematics and BIOS listings?
Functional for me, or any other Linux only user running on PC hardware.
It doesn't really matter what I'm doing, as I don't want a key with a picture of a flying window on my keyboard. For me that key is a waste of space, and an irritation. It's like a dead key, I guess not just like a dead key, it actually is a dead key.
In itself, it is no big deal, but it is evidence that MS has no problems building hardware to ensure a lock in. The Xbox is a much better example, of course, but others have already mentioned that.
I hate Windows XP because...
....???
1. I am.
2.
3. Profit!!
The OSS community will continue to get their best idas from the same places as they and Microsoft do now.
Individual OSS developers - each other
End user suggestions
Macs (my opinion)
The reason so much in Linux seems like a greatly improved version of what you find in Windows is that not only does Microsoft "borrow" ideas, but it does it badly...
I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
>They're anti-competitive and controlling, >certainly. Monopolistic, sure.
>But no, they're not evil. If you think they are, >you've got a seriously screwed up set of values.
Say again??? I'm afraid you don't understand evil.
>Stalin, Hitler - THAT is evil.
Just give M$ some time, man! To seek control over others, that what's the heart of evil. Goals and means are the same. Someone who uses the means M$ uses, has evil goals, and will become another Hitler. It's a natural law.
And I truly belive that M$, if unchecked, represents a greater danger to Humankind than Hitler, Stalin, and Bush together. I *am* serious. Slaughtering people is terrible, but some always survive, and we go on. Don't get me wrong---it's abhorrent, criminal, insane, but *survivable*. M$ attempts to destroy the very thing that kept us alive and made us a succesfull species: culture. We are a cultural species. Culture is our means of survival, the quid of our ecological niche. Oh, btw, the RIAA and MPAA are on the same side, for sure. Kill our culture and you kill us all, with the possible exception of isolated paleolithic tribes.
If that's not evil to you...
``L'imagination au povoir.''
If The X-Box can be made to run Linux, I expect that any obstacles Microsoft presents will be overcome, even if the programming has to be done in Elbonia
If my call is important, why am I talking to a recording?
How many here remember "DOS isn't done until Lotus won't run"?
Bill Gates' Open Letter to the Hobbiests, is the definitive point. February 3 1976 is when calling your customers theives proved to be profitable.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Apple uses open firmware, which is an open standard and is programmable/hackable in FORTH. Apple has used open firmware for about 4 or 5 years now. Please don't post when you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground.
Mods, please mod this as redundant, since I know it's been covered numerous times. It's just certain idiots who can't be bothered to read before posting keep getting it wrong.
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
I'm an American Engineer, and I, for one, spend most of my time on /. moaning about H-1bs and outsourcing. Who has time for DRM?
I am running a Win2K/Linux dual boot on a brand-spankin-new P4C800 motherboard here at home. At work I spend equal parts of my time using Linux and Windows XP (on separate machines).
.doc files with my co-workers. [The server part of our solution uses a Embedded Planet board running linux, and I program for that using linux.] I use windows a lot. I use Linux a lot.
Linux works fine, with so-far-unlimited continuous uptime.
Win2K (at home) hangs after an hour or two of uptime if (and only if) I plug in *ANY* USB device. [If I don't plug in any USB devices I get up to several days straight before windows hangs]
Win XP (at work) only hangs every few days to two weeks.
In short, windows is still crap and you can't say I have my opinion because I haven't tried it lately.
And since I code on *and* using Windows, Linux, and RTXC I feel qualified to say that with no reservation what-so-ever.
See, the thing is, since Microsoft has a policy *against* rewriting production code, much of the crap from 1998 is still in there. They've covered the crap, and put restart harnesses around it, and segmented the crap on the left from the crap on the right by beefing up the memory model. But it still takes very little to push the code base off the pointy top-end of "working well" and into a thundering roll down the hill to the "what ate my data" cravasse?
Not an hour ago I had to do the hang-reboot-checkdisk-reboot dance on my windows partition.
So at home I mostly use Windows (2k) for games and printing and looking at pr0n, while doing everything else using linux. At work I use it (XP) because windows is the only platform that runs the tool-chain for compiling the OS for the client [RTXC embedded platform] we sell, and because I have to exchange
Windows is crap. If all you do is browse the web, and you don't mind rebooting regularly (or you naturally turn off or sleep you box to save electricity anyway so it gets its regular reboot because of your natural behavior) you may not notice it much.
Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
--"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
I want to take this opportunity to thank George Bush for leaning on the DOJ to discard the break up of Microsoft in favor of a slap-on-the-wrist remedy in the anti-trust suit against M$. I know I'm all in favor of having Bill Gates control what software I can run on my PC.
"D00d, you're getting a Microsoft Dell!"
*** *** You're just jealous 'cause the voices talk to me... ***
Even the Phoenix BIOS on my old 486 labels any disks as "A:" "C:" and so forth. And, it only lets you boot from C! Stupid M$....
I love NetHack.