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There isn't a single board that regulates engineers. There are specific certification boards that have been developed from the earlier system of guilds for some specific engineering disciplines, but what seems to be asked here is that something like a guild be established for software engineering.

A decidedly stupid notion, even though a Programmers' Guild already exists and can provide you a nice and convenient letter for certification if you really insist upon the idea. It certainly can't be used as the excuse for why software engineering should not be considered a proper engineering discipline unless you are seeking to make such organizations official and legally required as membership.

FWD.US is a conspiracy created by Mark Zuckerberg to help drive down IT wages in America.

I have no problem with talented immigrants, but American corporations are LYING about the need for those H1B immigrants due to so-called "shortages" of STEM workers in America, and in the offing they are displacing QUALIFIED American workers with those immigrants (in clear violation of the law). Here are some FACTS to counter Zuckerberg's SPIN around his company's (and others, like MSFT, Cisco, Facebook, Google, etc.) cynical attempt to drive down wages. Just look at the recent policy decision to permit H1B spouses to seek work permits in May, 2015 something; that's 150,000 new workers (most of them professionals - and many with IT skills) into an already challenged IT economy. FWD.US is part of a legal conspiracy to drive down tech wages, under cover of the lie that America does not have sufficient STEM talent. Zuckerberg is shilling for his pals, and working against the American IT worker.

FACTS: One of the most respected technology pundits in Silicon Valley has this to say about the H1-B worker problem http://www.cringely.com/2012/1...

Here's an attorney and his consultants teaching corporations how to manipulate foreign-worker immigration law to replace qualified American workers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

H1-B abuse if accompanied by other worker-visa abuse L-1 Visa (H1-B's are only the tip of the iceberg). There are more than 20 categories of foreign worker visas. http://economyincrisis.org/con...

Professor Norman Matloff's extremely well documented studies on this problem. http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/...

Federal offshoring of healthcare.gov website http://www.economicpopulist.or...

How H1-B visa abuse is hurting American tech workers http://www.motherjones.com/pol...

There is no stem worker crisis in America http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-wo...

Marc Zuckerberg and wealthy tech scions continue to perpetuate this trend http://programmersguild.org/do...

Yahoo http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs...

Unemployment is a problem in America, and so are our sticky problems with immigration. Undercover of helping those immigrants who have so long labored in our agricultural sector, the American IT sector has seen fit to use the sentiment to help agricultural workers to create a Landslide of advantage for itself. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

H1Bs in Sacramento http://www.news10.net/story/ne...

Undercover of helping immigrant agricultural workers who have long needed a break in America, the American technology sector - lead by Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg - has seen fit to heavily lobby Congress to increase H1-B and other worker visa permits, vastly increasing H1-B visas at a time when very good research shows that there is no shortage of tech workers in America. Zuckerberg has so far succeeded, in the Senate. What is motivating the claim for more H1-B visas?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

previously

One of the most respected technology pundits in Silicon Valley has this to say about the H1-B worker problem and Two H1-B's walk into a Bar: More on the H1-B visa problem

One of many examples of what goes on behind closed doors: an immigration attorney and his consultants teaching corporations how to manipulate foreign-worker immigration law to replace qualified American workers.

H1-B's are only the tip of the iceberg; there are more than 20 categories of foreign worker visas.

Professor Norman Matloff's extremely well documented studies on the H1-B and foreign worker visa problem. Matloff claims that Hi-B abuse has cost Americans $10Trillion dollars, since 1975. Inc. Magazine weights in Professor Matloff's Webpage

Mother Jones weighs in:How H1-B visa abuse is hurting American tech workers

Marc Zuckerberg and other wealthy tech scions - including large immigration law firms and corporation who profit from importing H1-B's continue to perpetuate this trend

How H1-B malpractice hurts the American economy

Most of the new crop of H1-Bs is coming from one of the most corrupt university systems in the world.

Indian government officials are not happy that the universities that they collude with might have some limitations placed on the abuses that have enabled them to "sell" their product to the American IT sector.

How the new immigration bill could ignite a trade war with India

How to underpay an H1-B worker

Undercover of helping immigrant agricultural workers who have long needed a break in America, the American technology sector - lead by Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg - has seen fit to heavily lobby Congress to increase H1-B and other worker visa permits, vastly increasing H1-B visas at a time when very good research shows that there is no shortage of tech workers in America. Zuckerberg has so far succeeded, in the Senate. What is motivating the claim for more H1-B visas?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

previously

One of the most respected technology pundits in Silicon Valley has this to say about the H1-B worker problem and Two H1-B's walk into a Bar: More on the H1-B visa problem

One of many examples of what goes on behind closed doors: an immigration attorney and his consultants teaching corporations how to manipulate foreign-worker immigration law to replace qualified American workers.

H1-B's are only the tip of the iceberg; there are more than 20 categories of foreign worker visas.

Professor Norman Matloff's extremely well documented studies on the H1-B and foreign worker visa problem. Matloff claims that Hi-B abuse has cost Americans $10Trillion dollars, since 1975. Inc. Magazine weights in Professor Matloff's Webpage

Mother Jones weighs in:How H1-B visa abuse is hurting American tech workers

Marc Zuckerberg and other wealthy tech scions - including large immigration law firms and corporation who profit from importing H1-B's continue to perpetuate this trend

How H1-B malpractice hurts the American economy

Most of the new crop of H1-Bs is coming from one of the most corrupt university systems in the world.

Indian government officials are not happy that the universities that they collude with might have some limitations placed on the abuses that have enabled them to "sell" their product to the American IT sector.

How the new immigration bill could ignite a trade war with India

How to underpay an H1-B worker

Zuckerberg is also a traitor to the American tech worker.

Hey, Mark, MSFT just laid off 18,000 people; Cisco just laid off a bunch; MSFT just the other day closed its research center right down the street from you - filled with gifted coders and brilliance. Mark, there is a MOUND of studies showing NO shortage of STEM works in the US.

Some facts: The H-1B fiasco has cost Americans **$10TRILLION** dollars, since 1975. For anyone who wants to know the truth, read on.

One of the most respected technology pundits in Silicon Valley has this to say about the H1-B worker problem http://www.cringely.com/2012/1... Here's an attorney and his consultants teaching corporations how to manipulate foreign-worker immigration law to replace qualified American workers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

H1-B abuse if accompanied by other worker-visa abuse L-1 Visa (H1-B's are only the tip of the iceberg). There are more than 20 categories of foreign worker visas. http://economyincrisis.org/con...

Professor Norman Matloff's extremely well documented studies on this problem. http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/...

Federal offshoring of healthcare.gov website http://www.economicpopulist.or...

How H1-B visa abuse is hurting American tech workers http://www.motherjones.com/pol...

There is no stem worker crisis in America http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-wo...

Marc Zuckerberg and wealthy tech scions continue to perpetuate this trend http://programmersguild.org/do...

Yahoo http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs...

Also, little known is the tactic of creating many different kinds of sub-visa categories to "fool the system". There are almost TWENTY different kinds of work visas. The whole thing is a sham and a lie, designed to drag down wages and keep from having to re-train Americans. Never thought I would see this day!

Some of the information presented in the following links will shock most Americans, because American corporate leaders don't want us to know the truth, and they are paying off policy makers with contributions to keep the truth from us. Bill Gates, John Chambers, Mark Zuckerberg, Eric Schmidt, and many, many others - including the principals of the most prominent immigration law firms, who profit from this outrage, are lying through their teeth. There is NO shortage of STEM workers in the US!!

Last, Zuckerberg has all out lied since day 1 about guaranteeing privacy on Facebook - just outright lied. Facebook has become something that teens shun and will soon go the way of MSFT, run by another deceiver, Bill Gates, on the H1-B issue.

There is ample evidence that many American corporations have been actively discriminating against American Workers for well over a decade. This is especially true when it comes to STEM work skills. India, China, and Russia have been the main sources of off-shoring (and now, in-shoring). India is the absolute worst, with India's goovernment actively pushing for more H1-Bs because they would rather America hire them than India build proper educational and business infrastructure systems. Indian government is one of the most corrupt on earth (easily as corrupt as some of the worst African states).

Want proof? Unemployment is a problem in America, and so are our sticky problems with immigration. Undercover of helping those immigrants who have so long labored in our agricultural sector, the American IT sector has seen fit to use the sentiment to help agricultural workers to create a Landslide of advantage for itself. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

The H-1B fiasco has cost Americans **$10TRILLION** dollars, since 1975. For anyone who wants to know the truth, read on.

One of the most respected technology pundits in Silicon Valley has this to say about the H1-B worker problem http://www.cringely.com/2012/1...

Here's an attorney and his consultants teaching corporations how to manipulate foreign-worker immigration law to replace qualified American workers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

H1-B abuse if accompanied by other worker-visa abuse L-1 Visa (H1-B's are only the tip of the iceberg). There are more than 20 categories of foreign worker visas. http://economyincrisis.org/con...

Professor Norman Matloff's extremely well documented studies on this problem. http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/...

Federal offshoring of healthcare.gov website http://www.economicpopulist.or...

How H1-B visa abuse is hurting American tech workers http://www.motherjones.com/pol...

There is no stem worker crisis in America http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-wo...

Marc Zuckerberg and wealthy tech scions continue to perpetuate this trend http://programmersguild.org/do...

Yahoo http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs...

Also, little known is the tactic of creating many different kinds of sub-visa categories to "fool the system". There are almost TWENTY different kinds of work visas. The whole thing is a sham and a lie, designed to drag down wages and keep from having to re-train Americans. Never thought I would see this day!

Some of the information presented in the aforementioned links will shock most Americans, because American corporate leaders don't want us to know the truth, and they are paying off policy makers with contributions to keep the truth from us. Bill Gates, John Chambers, Mark Zuckerberg, Eric Schmidt, and many, many others - including the principals of the most prominent immigration law firms, who profit from this outrage, are lying through their teeth. There is NO shortage of STEM workers in the US!!

"Bright Future Jobs, the Programmers Guild and WashTech."

Who, who, and who?

As of August 1999, the Programmers Guild had 400 members. Mighty important organization there, if you can't be bothered to offer membership numbers from this century. Which, to be fair, looks to be the last time their web page look was updated.

As far as I can tell, "Bright Future Jobs" is one person Donna Conroy.

WashTech is a union. No thanks.

I suspect that IBM, Infosys and Manpower won't even notice their "boycott."

Actually, most of those ads are written so that *no American can possibly fill them*.

They're called "PERM ads", and they are designed to do an end-run around the US's H1-B Visa system. They run completely fake, ludicrous ads that look a lot like this analysis here.

Then they lie their asses off claiming they "can't find qualified Americans" for the job, and proceed to try to hire H1-B's (who are locked in to one employer and get shit wages) instead. Meanwhile, Americans who actually DO qualify for the job are shut out of the hiring process, since when the employers go looking in India or elsewhere, the job requirements magically return to what's actually going to be needed on the job.

which is a ploy to avoid hiring American workers in favor of H1B & green card temp workers? It's only "old news" if you have already been replaced by an H-1B.

I read one ad for Qt4 programmers which required 5 years experience, but tool had only been released in the prior year!

The most infamous quote by immigration lawyer Larry Lebowitz during the Cohen & Grigsby seminar on employment visas, May 15th, 2007 in Pittsburgh. Lebowitz coached immigration attorneys and employers how to avoid hiring US workers in order to hire foreign workers on green cards:

"Our goal is clearly NOT TO FIND a qualified and interested US worker."

http://www.programmersguild.org/rir/

Or, HERE

How U.S. Employers Can Avoid The H1B Cap

Under the present scenario, U.S. employers can only file H1B petitions for new bachelor-level or master-level H1B workers on one day each year, or on April 1 of each year.

However, there are some other options available to U.S. employers.

Alternatives To The H1B Visa

o Hire U.S. workers.
o Hire foreign nationals who already have an H1B visa under the H1B "portability" rules.
o Hire recently graduated students on the USCIS' extended "optional practical training" (OPT) program for certain foreign graduates of U.S. universities.
o Hire H1B1 workers from Chile or Singapore.
o Hire E-3 workers from Australia.
o Hire TN workers from Canada or Mexico.
o Hire E-2 foreign nationals who own and operate their own companies within the United States.
o For multinational companies, transfer employees from overseas to the United States under the L-1 visa category.
o Utilize the U.S. State Department's J-1 visa program to hire foreign "trainees" and "interns".
o Utilize the H2B "temporary worker" nonimmigrant visa category.

A TN visa process is an "objective" process in which the USCIS officer determines whether an applicant's credentials meet those listed in NAFTA.

There is no requirement that a sponsoring employer pay at least the prevailing wage (or actual wage, if higher) for the position being sponsored for the geographic location where the foreign national will work.

A year ago it was reported that H-1B workers OUTNUMBERED unemployed techies!

H1B and other quotas are set in the Free Trade Agreements with the various countries. Despite the fact that these job ad s

Actually, yes I have. You might want to see the Programmer's Guild and other information technology labor movements before you start dissing such attitudes. There are programmers who feel that enough is enough and that they ought to be given a little bit of respect.

Are "unions" or "guilds" common in the IT industry? No. But they do exist, and there can be some benefits that come from joining them.

There are also specific DOT labor laws that these companies are usually violating when it comes to both pay and interpretation of on-call status as well. Not only that, but even the status of being a contract employee is not even enough to be exempted from overtime laws as they apply to programmers. In fact, labor laws for programmers are pretty darn strict and I still may have a case to go after former employers for some abuses that have happened in the past.

Yes, I read your post. The problem (for you) is that you are not my only source of information on the subject.

It is NOT about pushing down wages.

It IS about hiring from a better candidate pool.

If that were true, they wouldn't have pressed the government to eliminate the "prevailing wage" stipulations. Moreover, it's demonstrably false.

http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Mich.pdf

• 1. Applicant Screening on Skill SetsWhen the industry lobbyists started their first push for expansion of the H-1B program in 1997, they attributed the claimed labor shortage to an insufficient number of students in college computer science curricula.141 Yet when confronted with evidence such as we saw earlier that there is no shortage of programmers and engineers, i.e. no shortage of bodies, the industry changed their story. They have replied that it is not a shortage of such workers in general, but rather a shortage of workers with very specific skill sets. During the debate on ACWIA 98, for instance, the skill de jour was Java, a new programming language, and it was claimed that even though there may be lots of programmers in the U.S., there was a shortage of Java programmers. Other skills often cited by the industry as being in short supply were the SAP database language, the UNIX operating system, and various others.

• For example, an employer may find that it cannot hire the workers it needs because it cannot afford to pay the new, higher wages that scarcity has produced. From the perspective of an individual employer, this situation looks like a shortage: It can no
  longer find workers at the wages they have been paying. It is also a crisis for them. From the perspective of the economist
  and perhaps even of the industry, there is no shortage, just higher wages.

The H1-B pool in the US tends to be higher quality, on average, than the general pool of all applicants in the US. So you get to automatically have a selection applied, and the pool is higher quality.

This is a lie. It's about big employers wanting to drive down wages. The issue has been settled. There is no shortage of IT workers. There is no shortage of skilled IT workers. There is a shortage of cheap IT labor.

People have been caught tailoring job listings to exclude Americans so that they can hire a cheap Indian.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx--jNQYNgA
http://www.programmersguild.org/rir/pittsburghtribune_24june2007.html

The H1-B pool in the US tends to be higher quality, on average, than the general pool of all applicants in the US. So you get to automatically have a selection applied, and the pool is higher quality.

Repeating this bullshit doesn't make it the truth. You are not telling me that MIT, CMU, Rutgers, Pitt and any other first rate U.S. College/University doesn't produce graduates of the same or better caliber than the University of Calcutta.

LK

Look, the federal law is that H1B workers are paid the same as American workers in the same job.

Why does this fallacy continue to be perpetuated? It's been shown again and again and again that H1B visa holders are paid less than their domestic counterparts, regardless of what the law might say.

Anyone who was around during the dot-com era remembers how it was H-1b limits that caused the crash of that wonderful era. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

A real job is one where you can apply your training. An unreal job is one you could have gotten out of high school or before that you have to take to make ends meet. It happens.

Wikipedia and the Programmer's Guild both explaining how the H1B program is nothing like you think but that's beside the point. My point was to take advantage of family money if you have it. Bill Gates never had to work for anyone else in his life, which proves that you don't have to work for others if you have a good enough idea and can hire the expertise to make it happen. If you crash and burn, you will have experience and the cube will still be waiting.

Ask Bill Gates if there's anything wrong with having lots of backing when you need it. Getting time on computers in high school, going to college and having a backing were all very good for Microsoft. The same lessons and more apply today because there are far fewer "real" jobs to go around thanks to H1B stuff. Ignoring resources is harmful.

I think that MOST of slashdotters working in tech have known this. It's all about the MONEY. Studies have shown time and time again that the reason businesses are bringing H1-Bs over here by the boatload is not about lack of qualified US graduates--it's about $$$. Only a couple of month's back the Programmer's Guild exposed a video that advertised a class on how to weed out qualified Americans so your company can employ cheaper H1-B workers.

Unfortunately, as long as US workers don't see it happening in THEIR field (or are blissfully unaware), they do nothing. I'm afraid when Americans DO stand up, it will be too late.

I'm afraid the IEEE has basically decided to sell itself out to the highest bidder. It used to be a credible organization. Unfortunately it no longer is.

I've been a member for years, until this year. I was under the impression that it was trying to represent ME. Nope. They've decided to sell out to the higest bidder.

In the latest example, the IEEE-USA has decided to ignore their individual members, and for the first time decided to team up with the Semiconductor Industry Association to promote the expansion of the H1-B program. Here's their press release:
http://www.ieeeusa.org/communications/releases/2007/101107.asp

The Programmers Guild has launched a petition to rebut this. It's not too late to get your signature attached to it. The petition is here:
http://www.programmersguild.org/docs/rebuttal_to_ieee_oct2007.html

I'm dropping my IEEE membership this year, as it's clear that the IEEE isn't interested in representing Software Developers.

So it's no surprise that they are pandering to the Russians. The IEEE has sold out.

On the page at:

    http://www.programmersguild.org/docs/lowest_paying _2004.htm

we find:

    Cambridge Resource Group, Inc.

    All five USA Board of Directors have Indian names, and
    they have two sites in India, vs one site in the US

I -know- racism can be worse than simply focusing on the name(s)... eg:

* Some Snapshots from [South] Australia:

1. In South Australia, private religious schools OPENLY advertise for:

- book-keeping staff who are "church-going Christians"
    (the application form asks for the signature of applicants
    minister or priest!)

- Teachers (of IT, Maths, Science, etc.) who are "practicing Christians"

- a Principal who is "an active member of a Catholic Eucharistic Community"
    (that requirement was listed -before- all other requirements)

2. Wait, there's more... this time from the State School system:

- In SA, at a Teacher's Union sponsored "Training" weekend, the trainer
    for the first session of the weekend all participants to tell the group
    what their religious affliation was... while brandishing the largest
    cross (on a neck-chain) I've seen for years! (This was the Union that
    represents -Public- School teachers in South Australia!)

(Non-Christian religious schools' employment ad's seem to focus on
teaching & subject-matter qualifications, not the teacher's after-
hours religious affilications and/or activities, or lack thereof.)
Even elsewhere in the recruitment to SA Gov't jobs, we have experienced:

- dubious questions at an interview for a Public Sector position

    I was asked to state my religious affiliation / preference.

3. Beyond SA, are more signs of the non-acceptance of non-religious:

Recently, Australia's Prime Minister is quoted as describing Australia
as the world's "most tolerant country" - suggesting we only "tolerate"
people with differences; a long stretch from accepting...

---

[ What Indian names? Chief Sitting Bull maybe? ] ;-)

I'm not sure what the Programmer's Guild does, other than make a big stink about H-1B visas.

Might I suggest going to, say, their web site and reading the plain-English ByLaws page? In particular, "ARTICLE 3 - PURPOSE", which contains a bulleted list of, well, what they do.


but if the H-1B situation was really as cut and dried, criminal and downright treasonous as the Programmer's Guild says, wouldn't there be some other parties chiming in on the issue?

Follow the money... Who benefits by driving down the cost of competant IT work? Hint - not "everybody but IT workers", because when we have money, we spend it as though the apocalypse will happen tomorrow.


As for whether or not companies really engage in such reprehensible hiring practices, you need look no further than the employment section of your local paper. See the tiny, unappealing buzzword-laden ads for experienced coders, paying a third the going rate in your area? Those companies will not get responses from anyone but interns. They can then claim they couldn't find anyone to take the job despite "honestly" trying, and can then hire H1Bs.

Regardless of your opinion of outsourced labor, I don't think anyone would consider such transparent tactics as anything but a legal farce.



wouldn't there be some other parties chiming in on the issue?

While IT people may have extremely well-organized personal lives (social and desktop notwithstanding), we don't tend to organize into larger bodies. The "I" in "INTP/INTJ" doesn't stand for "I likes large crowds".

I'm not sure what the Programmer's Guild does, other than make a big stink about H-1B visas.

Might I suggest going to, say, their web site and reading the plain-English ByLaws page? In particular, "ARTICLE 3 - PURPOSE", which contains a bulleted list of, well, what they do.


but if the H-1B situation was really as cut and dried, criminal and downright treasonous as the Programmer's Guild says, wouldn't there be some other parties chiming in on the issue?

Follow the money... Who benefits by driving down the cost of competant IT work? Hint - not "everybody but IT workers", because when we have money, we spend it as though the apocalypse will happen tomorrow.


As for whether or not companies really engage in such reprehensible hiring practices, you need look no further than the employment section of your local paper. See the tiny, unappealing buzzword-laden ads for experienced coders, paying a third the going rate in your area? Those companies will not get responses from anyone but interns. They can then claim they couldn't find anyone to take the job despite "honestly" trying, and can then hire H1Bs.

Regardless of your opinion of outsourced labor, I don't think anyone would consider such transparent tactics as anything but a legal farce.



wouldn't there be some other parties chiming in on the issue?

While IT people may have extremely well-organized personal lives (social and desktop notwithstanding), we don't tend to organize into larger bodies. The "I" in "INTP/INTJ" doesn't stand for "I likes large crowds".

I can't say I feel much sympathy for the BofA folks in the article...if they don't have the backbone to say "no," then they are simply condoning what BofA is doing. I'm not saying it's right, but please take your whine somewhere else. I would bet not a single one of them is a member of the Programmer's Guild or any other organization that has been trying to address this very issue for years.

You lay in the bed you make. Don't come whining because you don't have the balls to stand up to shit like this. Suck it up and move on. Or consider becoming proactive about the problem, joining a guild, pushing for a union, or contacting your congressmen. But please don't whine about the problem you've made for yourselves.

You and your child posts are missing one important point. Most of the H1B laborers in the US don't work for large US corporations, but for Indian 'Consultancy' companies like TCS, Infosys & Wipro. Most of them pay $10-15 an hour.
Check out http://programmersguild.org/docs/lowest_paying_200 4.htm

I think when he says "abstract it out a bit further" he means think of the spirit of the law. However, if the letter of the law is that you can't hire people for positions for which there exist qualified citizens willing to do the job, then the letter, as well as spirit, are being violated in the 'retrain your replacement' scenario. For a standard ploy in lowering wages with H-1b visas, see the Programmers Guild article on the topic.

Anyhow, there's no one solution for each person in my mind. Whether you at your job or some other guy at another job would benefit from collective bargaining (e.g. joining a union) is a decision best made by the individual. Then there's the professional organizations like the Programmers Guild as well. But it's obvious to me that SOME type of professional organization is needed - I mean every other profession, except maybe McDonalds workers, have some type of professional organization, be it a union or more like the AMA/ADA/ABA. And our bosses sure as hell have Chamber of Commerce like guys in Washington DC making sure H1-Bs visa caps rise, or at least are not lowered and things like this. The ITAA is the main association that does this, Microsoft, Intel, IBM and so forth give them millions a year to mostly screw IT workers in Washington DC. Plus they have a PR department that gets news media articles written that said there was a massive shortage of IT workers in the late 1990's and H1-B visas needed to be raised. In fact that's a standard line they are paid to push like tobacco lobbyists who say smoking is not bad for you, these people are still saying there's a shortage or will be soon, they always say that, they're paid to say that.

Finally I should point out that there is a lot of corporate funding for organizations like the IEEE, USENIX (SAGE), ACM and so forth. In some respects it's kind of ridiculous, it would be like having HMO's pay for and to some extent control the AMA. But anyhow, if you're in these organizations it's good to talk to other people and educate and agitate about it, but there has been internal politic problems in the past, and while doing some of that is good, you should also keep in mind that there are avenues and organizations available to you outside of them, like the Programmers Guild and other organizations. And if you don't like any of them, and know others who are dissatisfied, you can always start your own organization, web site, whatever.

In fact, the eat coast is no stranger to using a permatemp 'solution' to the 'i.t. question.'

i have been in more than one permatemp situation, each of which started as a few weeks' assignment, all while i was looking for a permanent job. the real heartbreaker of these assignments and others like them is that the corporations always make great talk about hiring a contractor permanently once the hiring freeze is lifted, or at the end of the fiscal year, or some other when-my-ship-comes-in time frame.

Frequently, I was as meaningful a team member as the full-time employees. Because the teams i worked with treated me well, reflecting their own dignity, I continued to stay in a contract situation. Financial matters in the tech downturn or receipt of certification ended my contract, and i would be looking for work once again.

The real loser in this schema is not the contractor: they actually get paid very well while being ostracized. Rather, the teams that continue to welcome and participate with a contractor in a meaningful way and the product they develop suffer far more than the contractor.

The permatemp situation is destroying not only good code, but good employees. Many of the team members i worked with feared increasing temp and foreign contracts would land them unemployed or underemployed.

My advice? take it into our own hands. There is more than one Programmers Union going strong these days, despite the downturn. Unions not only are more reliable than a corporate employer, they serve to stop this carousel of a better-faster-cheaper approach to employees. Unions did bring us the weekend, after all.

Why go as far as starting a union, when we already have good examples set by the legal and medical professions? Programmers need a strong, political, professional guild. Unionizing is anachronistic, and doesn't apply well to intellectual professions.

Also, last time I checked, neither one of those professions were unionized any more than programmers are.

No unions, that's correct. But they have guilds, one called the ABA and the other the AMA. Programmers are working on their own professional guild.

The Programmer's Guild
has been lobbying against the H-1B for years now. Without much effect. I'm glad that the AFL-CIO has brought this to the attention of the main-stream media. Speaking as an American programmer, who's really tired of watching my peers get replaced by cheap, over-seas labor, it's about time!

• Promote the profession of programming
  
• Conduct lobbying on issues that affect members of the programming profession (issues like H-1B, outsourcing to foreign body shops, etc.)
  
• Set Professional Standards (which is about time!)
  
• Certification
  
• Job Placement
  

We've established that it sucks. Now - what can we do about it?

In the guild yet?

In the guild yet?

Why are Americans in debt more than they were thirty years ago and not saving money? Household debt has gone from 65% of post-tax income to over 100% in the past thirty years and saving rates have dropped. Well, one reason is that the average inflation-adjusted hourly wage is below what it was thirty years ago. You can see the raw data at the government's BLS web site, or check out LBO's nice graphs of the same data. This is a very important piece of economic information, but one rarely, if ever, mentioned in the news. The fact that Americans are making less money per hour (inflation-adjusted) than they were thirty years ago sheds a lot of light on why savings are down and debt is up - they are making less money and thus have less to save and thus by food and clothes and so forth on credit cards.

Some people, for whatever reasons, would rather stick to their own conclusions about how people are indulging themselves too much and this will cause them repercussions. This seems to be a tenet of Christian thought, and since Christianity dominates American society so heavily perhaps that's why people prefer their "faith" view over the scientific and logical conclusions one would draw from economic data. Or perhaps, as I said before, they and their circle are all white collar Java professionals and they apply what happened to them as what's happening to the Gen X janitor who sweeps up late at night in their offices, however falsely. Even in this case I'd disagree, as Microsoft, IBM, Intel etc. bankrolled the ITAA to modify laws such as the H1-B cap, FLSA overtime provisions, section 1706 IRS tax codes etc., in an attempt to lower IT wages. An attempt which was largely successful. Of course, that just played a part in lower IT wages and higher unemployment, the bigger tidal wave of the economy helped lower wages as well. But again, to hear some people talk about it, it sounds like "the economy did it" is like we're all farmers and our crops were flooded and people say "it was just the weather". The economic system is not some foreign, alien force we have no control of, like the weather. The millions the ITAA spent on lobbying efforts, plus larger scale forces manipulating the economy are what caused this. All I hear here are a bunch of people whose solutions to everything is to tighten their belts (and increase their skill level so they'll be more valuable specialists). It sounds a lot more meek and submissive than what the dock workers in San Francisco have been doing - men who have more secure jobs and are paid more than a lot of IT techies, and who probably used to beat these meek little techies asses and could this day still probably beat the meek, submissive techies asses. Quite often reading comments here, I get disgusted by the attitude of many of the posters. The important thing is, those of us who think as we (or I) do have to band together and push things forward, as these toadies never will. Efforts are already being made - Washtech/CWA, the Programmers Guild and so forth, they just need more people on board to start reaching critical mass. We can't wait around for the pansies, we have to get out there and get things moving ourselves.

If you do not have RSI - if you use computers long enough without listening to what I and others here say, you *will* get it. I mean, it's like trying to life 500 pounds and get a hernia, or smoking 2 packs a day until you get lung cancer. Just because it takes a few years to get you doesn't mean it eventually will. If you're young, be smart and pay attention so your hands don't get crippled. You don't have to go overboard, there's some simple things you can do to help you out. And if you feel pain - DON'T IGNORE IT, do something about it.

Some people have posted good things here. The web page that helped me out was the RSI web page by Netscape developer guru Jamie Zawinski.

As people have said, it's all about repetition. If you do the same thing over and over and over again (e.g. click a mouse, type), eventually your hands will slowly start getting screwed up and you will start feeling pain whenever you mouse click, or type, or whatever. Ask programmers you know who are over the age of 25, I guarantee 50% of them either have RSI or say they type in a manner that avoids RSI.

Here are some things I do to help:
I use a different mouse at home and work. At work it is the basic Microsoft mouse. At home it is a trackball-type mouse with a big ball. I also switch hands with both mice, I go half an hour with the left hand, then half an hour with the right hand. This way, both hands get half an hour of use and half an hour of rest. This helps me more than anything.
Also, continually typing for hours on end is no good. Zawinski takes a 5 minute break every 40 minutes, or when feeling pain, every 20 minutes. Go to the bathroom, get some water, get a Snapple. Or stop typing and read some manual or papers or something. Do some hand-stretching exercises.
Also, having a good ergonomic keyboard, mouse and chair, and sitting and typing at them properly help. And if you feel real pain, go more overboard on this stuff and see a doctor. And sue the hell out of everyone in sight!

Speaking to that last topic, Bush and his cabinet guys say RSI is bullshit and people like me and thousands of others who feel pain in our hands are imagining this. Hmm, that wouldn't be because the ITAA (funded by Microsoft, IBM, Intel and so forth) is handing him millions of dollars, would it be? Also, this is is a professional concern, not a partisan political one - both Democrats and Republicans have been taking ITAA money. Although with professional issues, we're more likely to get initial help on RSI from Democrats, and we're more likely to get initial help on H1-Bs from Republicans (like Rep. Tancredo). Organizations like the Programmers Guild fight for programmers and administrators on issues such as this. So think about checking up on them, and maybe even signing up, or at least getting involved.

There’s the Programmers Guild. They seem more concerned with the H-1B issue, but they state that among their goals are the setting of professional standards and the creation of a certification. As a “self-made programmer,” I don’t see how either of these would hurt me, but I know everything anyway. :.)

Welcome to the Programmers Guild
guild (guïld) n. An association or corporation of persons of the same trade, pursuits, or interests formed for their mutual aid and protection, the maintenance of standards, or the furtherance of some purpose. (The American Heritage Dictionary)

This is the organizing page for The Programmer's Guild. Now that the software industry is maturing we are proposing the creation of Guild or professional society specifically for programmers. At this time programmers are not organized and this is increasingly putting us at risk.

Goals of the Programmer's Guild

Promote the profession of programming
Conduct lobbying on issues that affect members of the programming profession
Set Professional Standards
Certification
Job Placement
The Programmers Guild is not a labor union and is not involved in collective bargaining.
source

Well, there is the [American] Programmers Guild. It's not a trade union, but probably the next best thing to it. If you live in Washington State, however, there's a tech union that's a part of the CWA.

I'm not promoting unionization in most cases, but I recognize there are some egregious situations (like that at Divine.com) where it might make sense. A democracy of the worker pool is sometimes, sadly, the only way to counteract anti-employee decisionmaking by corporate executives. The shareholders certainly won't stand up for the employees!

Yes, and dentist's have the ADA, accountants have the AICPA, and lawyer's have the ABA. What professional association of the magnitude of the ABA or AMA represents modern IT engineers? The answer is, there is no professional association with any weight behind it that represents engineers.

We do have a well-financed association or lobbying group financed by the employers of the IT profession (Microsoft, IBM etc.) called the ITAA, which has been making war on our profession for years. Their sole purpose is to flood the IT labor market in order to drive up IT unemployment and drive down wages. They also despise worker independence which is why they love H1-B restrictions (forcing H1-Bs to stick with rotten companies during green card applications) and support section 1706 in the tax code (which forces independent consultants into body shops).

The first high-rated post said "we can all become managers!" Um, no, we can not all become managers, most of the IT departments I've worked at have had anywhere from 10-30 people under a manager, so when one of them goes on to be a manager, what becomes of everyone else. Also, good programmers don't necessarily mean good managers, and mediocre programmers can be good managers. I could go on, but the article is true that 24/7 oncall for years on end, constantly working weekends and 60 hour weeks can lead to burnout, and that many companies don't like hiring people over a certain age.

From a personal standpoint, I believe the failure of engineers to form an association that can counter the ITAA's war on our profession in Washington, as well as the failure to form consulting companies which are geared more towards worker-ownership and worker-control (although there are some, like RMPCP) is due to the fact that many of the people in this profession are the stereotypical socially retarted dorks, who are unable to socialize normally with other human beings, and who place their entire self-worth in the idea that they are the smartest programming super-genius whose skills are better than everyone else, who works harder than anyone else and so forth, so why would he have to have an association like the ABA or AMA with other engineers like every other god-damn profession does? Believe me, doctors are not stupid, cutting someone open and operating on their beating heart is a lot more complicated than opening up a computer and adding more RAM to it. They're not stupid, many of them are very smart actually, and we should follow their example and form a professional association.

For my preference, I like the Programmer's Guild, if you don't like them you can form your own or join a different one, although I'd hope if there were several associations they'd work together in fighting the ITAA's attempts to steal our intellectual property and drive us out of work in Washington. There are engineers working on this and have been for years, but our numbers are small and we need more engineers to just cursorily educate themselves about these things, and then spread the word and educate others about these things, just a few more people on board and it will reach critical mass and we can get the word out more. To me, it's not just about fighting for my profession, it's a principle thing, I'm sick of being kicked around by Microsoft (and IBM, Oracle etc.) via their ITAA yap dog, and I'm glad that I'm actually doing something about it.

My web page that deals with all of this is the Oncall Guild web page. We're not a group that seeks paying membership, anyone can be a member, just educate yourself about this, spread the word and join organizations like the Programmer's Guild or similar good organizations to do something about it. Some of the older engineering organizations are discussed on the web page, both the problems (corporate-financed to the point that they have killed campaigns that oppose the ITAA with threats, too academically focused, created decades ago and not focused on the modern IT profession and so forth) and good things (surveys about salary and other matters, allowing engineers to network with each other).

Or the Programmers' Guild.

However, I don't think they have quite the same objectives that you do.

The Programmers Guild is a recently established organization aimed at American programmers working together to safeguard their profession, their craft and their rights.

On their website, they state the following reasons for why they started the organization:

• We were concerned about the declining prestige of the programming profession. A programmer is becoming regarded a interchangeable body rather than a skilled individual.
  
• We were concerned about the public's perception of the software industry and the rampant hucksterism going on, from Y2K to Internet IPOs.
  
• We were concerned about the declining quality of software, both commercial and custom.
  
• We were concerned about the lack of minority and older workers in the profession.
  
• We were concerned about legislative issues, such as tax laws, non-compete clauses, software patents, and immigration, while the programming profession has no voice in government.
  
• We were concerned with improving productivity among programmers.
  
• We were concerned with the difficulty in connecting programmers to jobs.
  
• We were concerned that the growth in technology jobs is not being used to benefit the population at large.
  

If there is such a shortage, then why don't they hire people who do not have the exact/i> skills advertised. I have seen companies in 1988 ask for people with 10 years of IBM/MS-DOS programming experience.

Take a look at the programmers guild.

See the Programmer's Guild web site for one attempt at an IT union.

Of course there is age discrimination in engineering-- especially in software engineering. This is a well documented fact.You can find an in-depth study here . Why would a company hire a very expensive, very experienced engineer when they can source the project to a consultancy (Andersen et. al.) which will simply human wave the problem with indentured H1-B visa employees? Even if the project management is really bad, the programmers totally demoralized, and the project majorly screwed up, they can usually produce something that pretends to work. For internet software, that's all you need.
According to the Programmer's Guild (PG), U.S. industry has already reached its quota of H1-B visas (a program that allows non-resident/non-greencard foreign nationals to work in the U.S. for 6 years). This, despite having last year doubled the size of the program to 115,000 visas annually.Because IT salaries are totally out of control now, having risen to a whopping $54,000, U.S. industry has put the full court press on congress to dramatically increase the quota or eliminate it altogether.Congress, responding appropriately to the huge campaign contributions from big biz, will most likely pass such an increase, according to the IEEE One particularly interesting point about the leading bill winding its way through the senate is the name: "American Competitiveness in the 21st Century act". I guess that congress does not think the current crop of American born programmers are very competitive.

I'd like to know what people here think. Will a million new "guest workers" in the next 5 years help the quality of U.S. software engineering, thus expanding the pie for everyone? Or will 1 million new indentured servants allow IT management to continue many of their screwed up practices because they know that engineering can't complain.

Programmer's Guild. What a great idea! I looked up programmersguild.com net and org programersguild.org is already a website, and looks interesting. .com is not used and .net is available. I'd also be willing to host something if anyone is interesting in creating another one (my boss shouldn't mind hosting something like this)