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How Effective are Ergonomic Keyboards?
Jodrell writes: "This article on the BBC's website has a brief review of the current state of keyboard technology, but also questions the validity of claims that ergonomic keyboards can help prevent RSI, CTS and other "upper limb disorders." The article suggests that maybe it's working habits that cause these problems, and not the design of computer interfaces. What are Slashdot readers' experiences?"
For me, preventing pain in my hands and wrists is all about having the keyboard at exactly the right height. If it's at the wrong height, I'll eventually get pain. If it's a the right height, I won't. The only other issue is working the mouse in very cold rooms. For some reason that causes my hands to hurt.
C//
I use only old IBM 101 key "clicky" keyboards (both at work and at home). I type as much as 10-12 hours a day sometimes, and I don't have any RSI type problems. I do think using a good "regular" keyboard is important; using a "mushy" keyboard causes me to type harder (because I can't tell when I've pressed the key).
I hate using so-called ergonomic keyboards (especially the MS version), because I can't find the keys without looking around to see which ones are on which side of the "break" (because they aren't all the same).
I've got a couple of spare IBM keyboards on the off chance I manage to break one, but that's unlikely. The keyboard I'm typing on right now survived college dorm life and is still going strong (I've had it for 10 years now and I bought it used).
Well, maybe they don't *prevent* RSI and CTS, but they may help to reduce the effects. I used to have major RSI problems and switched to an ergo keyboard and a trackball two years ago. Now, whenever I use a non-ergo keyboard (or a regular mouse, for that matter) for any length of time, my wrists start to stiffen up again. Psychosomatic? I don't think so.
"I'm not, like, that smart. I, like, forget stuff all the time." -- Paris Hilton
I have an Egro KB here on my desk at home, I rarely feel any pain while typing (even doing long research papers and normal crap on my computer).
I spend 8 hours a day in front of a computer at work typing worthless shit all day. The KB there is not Egro and I routinely feel sharp pains and experience cramping outside of work. Granted, my posture probably isn't the best but it obviously shows that the difference is huge when using the E KB over the regular.
That is my experience, YMMV.
Do they really help? I dunno. I never had that much of a problem with the regular style keyboard, but then I went out on a lark and bought the Microsoft Natural Elite keyboard just because it looked cool. The difference is really amazing and I hate having to use regular keyboards now, so much that I bought an extra keyboard to put on my work computer (if they don't already have an ergo).
I started developing pain in my wrists, and asked my boss to get me an ergonomic keyboard. He did, but the pain kept getting worse. I went to the doctor, and he told me to stop masturbating so much. That solved the problem!
"worker habits" are not seperable from "the design of computer interfaces" - your environment creates your habits just as much as the reverse. Change your chair and your keyboard, and your habits will change as well. This article is just bunk.
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Been programming, gaming, and hacking out code for over 20 years now (since I was 12) and about 5 years ago I started to develop carpal tunnel symptoms. I switched to an ergonomic (LogiTech) keyboard and began to notice an immediate reduction in my wrist pain.
;) it's made a pretty dramatic impact. Once I started actually doing exercises in conjunction with using an ergo keyboard, my CT symptoms decreased to almost nothing.
Since I spend an average of 10 hours a day in front of a computer (more when Sid Meier release a new Civ game
If I have to spend a day on a non-ergo keyboard, I notice pain again within a few hours.
Quite honestly, I think it's a bunch of marketing claptrap. It's just to sell more products and create jobs. For example, the Ergonomics Department at my company does very, very little. They come in and look at your chair/desk and fill out an evaluation. And it has to be signed by you, your manager, your managers manager, and the god damn janitor. It's a waste of time and it just sells things like those "ergonomic" mice.
Anyway, the summarize, the whole concept of ergonomics was invented to sell products. Sorry if this post came off as ranty. Feel free to mod down as (-1, Troll).
Hargun
Think nothing is impossible? Try slamming a revolving door.
It recurred more recently because I had taken to often using my laptop on the couch instead of my desktop machine with the natural keyboard. So in my case at least, the natural keyboard definitely works.
Phil
Ergonomic Keyboards are GAY.
They are for gay faggits with delicate hands.
They SUCK.
I started having CTS symptoms about 4 years ago. I switched to an ergo keyboard (ms-natural clone) and that helped the problem a bit. At least it delayed further deterioration until about 4 months ago, when it got bad enough that I went to see a doctor.
So I can tell you an ergo keyboard won't solve the problem by itself, altough it does help. You need an integral approach to a comfortable workspace. When I started getting worse a few months ago, I changed my table for one in which the keyboard is a bit lower and that's been helping me a good deal.
As a Comp Sci major, and a drummer in a band, my wrists were killing me.
So I got one of them Microsoft Natural Elite Pro keyboards (built in USB hub!) and a MS Trackball optical (still the most comfortable trackball I've ever used) Within 2 weeks to get used to the new setup, I was pain free, and have been for the past 2 years or so.
While MS makes crappy software, I can honestly admit they make nice input devices and the new wireless Intellimouse Explorer is making me consider going back to a mouse....
Just my two cents....
Viva La Revolucion! Buy a Mac!
It's such a variable thing, that there can be no blanket statement such as "ergonomic keyboards ARE better", or the converse. Personally, I've been typing since I was 9 in 1980 - perhaps before, and I've spend a LOT of that in constant writing. Having discovered Deluxe Paint and Photoshop later, I've also been mousing intensely over that time - and in 20 years there've been no problems I've noticed. I have a nerve injury that causes numbness on the outer two fingers of my left hand which means I type quite offset - yet there are no effects showing up in how I feel using my wrist/elbow/arm
A friend of mine however, can't type pain-free without a microsoft ergo keyboard. That works for him and is another choice that I'm thankful he has.
The most annoying thing when typing so far has been having something in the road of my elbows. That gets to me!
a grrl & her server
...but it was the switch from a mouse to a trackball (finger, not thumb model) that helped my arm/hand pain. Although, I do prefer an ergonomic keyboard as I find it easier to type on.
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Not serverely though, but enough to change my habits. The big problem I was having was that I'd constantly hold my arms up in order to use the computer. I wasn't resting either of my elbos, and this eventually caused severe strain to my neck, shoulders, and even wrists. The first thing I did was I made a habit of having my left arm better rested on the desk or on the arm of my chair. The next thing I did was I got a little tv-dinner table and have my mouse resting on it instead, allowing me to rest my right arm on the chair. My problems went away shortly after making those changes, and I'd recommend them to anybody else.
For all you cubicle dwellers like me out there, another tip is to move your computer to the corner of the l-shaped desk, if you have that opportunity. By using the corner, you can rest both your elbos on the desk.
"Derp de derp."
She told me to do exercises with regular intervals.
I didn't, and now the pain is gone.
There is yet another question that rises: "What is happening these days? Are peripherals adapting to the human body or vice-versa?" ;)
I read this article that said the youth was evolving towars using the thumb as an index finger (to point), because they use their thumbs more often than they use their index fingers (playing with gamepads and writing SMS messages on their cellphones).
though I can't imagine a toddler picking his nose with his thumbs
here is a link an article about the thumb issue
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I have no doubt that my MS Natural keyboards have saved my wrists. I can no longer use a non-ergonomic keyboard without quickly getting sore wrists. After about 15 minutes of average programming I'll start to feel soreness in my wrists. If I continue my fingers begin to feel weak. With an ergo keyboard I can go all day without feeling any discomfort, however I still do take regular breaks and stretch.
For this reason I own three MS keyboards, two Elites and one Pro. I use my own keyboard at work and have a spare in case I ever need to do serious typing somewhere else. There is no question the Natural Pro is superior - the keys have better response, they feel layed out better and the arrow keys are in the proper T formation.
I'm a mac user and am continually saddened that Apple no longer offers ergonomic keyboards. I can't imagine any serious programmer using Apple's supplied keyboards, no matter how nice they look.
All I know is that I love MS Natural Keyboard, it makes typing alot easier for me, I don't know if it is any more healty. When I go to a plain keyboard, I have trouble typing accurately, and I have to position my arms in a slighly unnatural position. I also have a ergo-MS Wireless Explorer Optical mouse, and now I hate all other mice, the MS Wireless Optical is by far the best feeling mouse ever (although a bit inaccurate, as I still play Unreal with a corded mouse)!
I think that if you are in a position where you use your keyboard 8 hours a day, the ergo-keyboards help, maybe not health wise, but certainly comfort wise.
I find that most often I end up learning from necessity, rather than for enjoyment.
I don't use ergonomic keyboards, and not only have I used regular keyboards forever, I've been a piano player since I was 5 years old. How come we don't hear about CTS amoungst piano players, organist and the like. What about guitarists? Eddie Van Halen may have cancer, but he's never complained about CTS. While I'm sure that such a condition exists, I'm sure the medical community over-diagnoses, because of the money involved.
In that respect, I don't think it's any different than all the Prozac prescriptions that are given every year. What percentage is completely unnecessary?
I have an ergonomic keyboard and it has definitely reduced the feeling of 'tension' in my hands after a long bout of typing. I find it more helpful when typing 'essay' type material rather than coding, but it's not a hindrance at all for coding - just not as beneficial, probably because you don't pound the keyboard so non-stop when coding.
One thing someone else said, and I'd agree with, is that 'soft touch' keyboards are a Bad Thing (tm). I hate them. My ergonomic is the only one I've ever found that isn't soft touch, and that's why I bought two of them on the spot and put the spare in a cupboard...
Incidentally, I also have one of those weird 'kneeling position' chairs, a friend got me it for Xmas three years ago. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it has helped my back immeasurably - I don't get backaches when using my computer any more, even on all night hacking runs, and I definitely used to.
Regards,
Denny
Police State UK - news and
I find it much more comfortable to type on a laptop keyboard (Thinkpad in this case, not sure how the others compare). I think this happens because this keyboard is smaller than the run-of-the mill PC keybaords, so my fingers travel less while doing similar kinds of work (programming). The keys themselves are also much shallower, requiring less finger movement to depress.
Perhaps if you get used to typing since you were 16 your "upper limbs" are getting used to the strain on them. Or do the tennis stars get a "tennis arm"?
For me it makes a very big dif. A straight keyboard forces my wrists to make a sharp angle, where as the ergo keyboard obviously allows your wrists to stay in a perfect line with my forearms. I've been programming for forteen years and it definately makes a difference when you've been writing code as long as I have. A lot of newbies probably work hard too, but have 'revolving hands' when it comes to hiting keys with the right fingers. So I can see how an ergo keyboard might inhibit a new user. But in the long run it does make a dif. I esspecially notice it when i work out or do bench presses with a str8 bar... After being forced to use a str8 keyboard, that little twist in my wrist all day will equal big pain when it comes to lifting something heavy - I don't get that with an ergo keyboard. But then again, I'm pretty serious about the gym and very few hardcore programmers I know actually workout... or know what a bench press is....
I am a professional software developer (spending 15+ hours at the keyboard a day) and found my wrists began hurting a few years ago. After I start typing on a "flat" keyboard, even for just a few minutes the pain appears.
I got one of the ORIGINAL microsoft ergonomic keyboards and the pain stopped completely. I've been using them ever after. I'm unhappy that microsoft changed the design to make their ergos smaller, because now they suck. The F-keys are half-height, the arrows are in a diamond instead of the inverted 'T', and the insert/delete/home/end/pgup/pgdn keys are arranged vertically instead of horizontally. I truly hate their new keyboard, and was very sad when my original one broke because I can't replace it.
(I'm no fan of MS software, in fact I truly hate it, but I have to admit I like the peripheral hardware that they put their name on.) But now, I think I'm going to be looking for a new brand for ergonomics, since their new ones are simply terrible. (Also, I do not want all the buttons for mail, internet, CD playing, etc on the keyboard. What a stupid idea!)
for me, it's a bit of both.
i've been a programmer/graphics designer for about a decade now, and i have cts in both wrists (worse in the right from mouse work...), and I can tell you why right now: I don't know how to type properly.
Oh sure, i can bang away at 100 wpm, with very few typos, but my wrists are pressed flat against the table, which is just bad bad bad. Switching to an ergo keyboard helped, but not much.
The only thing that's helping me now is that i wear wrist supports on both arms that force my hands into the proper position. I've been wearing them for over a year now, and i rarely feel pain anymore. If i take them off for a few hours, then it starts to kick back in again. Something tells me i'll have to continue wearing them for a long time, at least until i train myself to type with proper wrist positioning.
Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo - H. G. Wells
Prayer won't help a bit. Never does. Keep the forearms parallel to the floor, and learn to type. Avoid a lot of mouse work. And avoid trackballs if you need to precision in your mouse movements (the mass is much less in the ball so it's difficult to gauge small movements). Keyboard shortcuts are good, but nowadays few apps do those things.
.
About a year ago I was starting to experience problems with my wrists after long days of coding. Looking for a quick-and-easy solution (no brace that I have to wear, no surgery, no changing my typing habits, etc.) I bought one of those keyboards that split into three pieces - both halves of the keyboard and then the keypad. That was I could type without doing the wrist-twisting thing. While I'd love to say I was duped (the keyboard was $150), I have had *no* problems with my wrists since then. Maybe just luck, but I kind of doubt it.
Chris
I was a PCB designer (until the great telecomm crash of 2001, but that's another story)
This involves holding the mouse in more or less the same position and clicking a lot. Pantheon uses 'strokes' to enter commands; you hold down the middle mouse button and draw a shape that represents a command. I ended up with terrific pain in my right forearm, pain that sometimes even went into the chest area. It was something like tennis elbow, I once even dropped a tin can because my hand just couldn't grasp anything when my wrist was at a certain angle!
At home, the pain continued. I eventually got an ergonomic keyboard, this felt better immediately while typing, but didn't solve the mouse problem. Eventually, I went to a chiropractor who detected a badly aligned spine. (I know, that's about all they CAN detect) These treatments helped with my upper body pains. I was always seated in a bad position because of my spine problem. This led to stress in the forearm when mousing.
With a combination of better posture and regular mousing pauses where I do some arm stretching exercises, I feel a lot better.
Of course, I don't work anymore either, so this helps too.
The reason that people get repetitive stress injuries is because the way they are taught to type. In typing class, you are taught to hold your hands in aa certain way, to never cross your hands and to keep them bent at an unnatural angle. Holding your hands in the same position as what typing teachers drill into their students increases the chance that you will do damage.
I would like to see a study of people who type using the "touch typing method" v.s. people who use the "hunt and peck" method. I think you will find that people who vary how they type have a much lower chance of having repetative stress problems than people who follow the rote dictates of how "you are supposed to type".
"Trademarks are the heraldry of the new feudalism."
I've been using computers since I was 4, and mostly using the standard or extended keyboards. Then about a month and half ago.. BOOM. Tendonitis in both arms flares up bad. Right before finals and everything... not good. I get worried, try to slack off as much as I can... but still it hurts bad. I try slacking off, I buy wrist splints... They alieviate the pain a bit... but then THEY start hurting me. So it hurts to type even a little bit... I even resort to typing with me nose (the WPM rate is horrible). So I go in and see the Doctor and they give me Advil...9 a day for 10 days... so I do that, wear the splints at night.. and it goes away for a while. But now it comes back, with PS2 and tons of typing, it's just bound to happen. So, now, I just take Advil whenever things start hurting... it works pretty well.
I work in acedemia (HCI at that) and the thought of RSI strike fear into professors and researchers because it disables them from being capable of doing anything for months at a time in a "publish or perish" type of environment. And the instant a fellow research says they've gotten RSI, everyone panics, blames UI technology, and becomes an evangelist for more sophisticated interaction techniques. But all I can say is that I've used crappy keyboards and crappy mice for hours everyday for more than 16 years and I've never had a problem. To me RSI feel much more like a product of bad work habits and popular hysteria than a real problem that can be engineered/designed out. Have humans really become this pethetically weak that we can't handle a simple task of sitting at a desk and using a regular keyboard and mouse? Technology really has made humans wimpy creatures.
When it comes down to a long-term typing run, either prose or code, I'm an addict to my Kinesis Ergo. Finally broke down and bought one for myself at work (couldn't get the office to buy one for me after years of polite requests).
When I got my first Kinesis, I also went Dvorak on it. I had used Dvorak back in the Apple II days, so I was somewhat familiar.
The interesting thing is how my mind has the two separated. If I sit down at a Kinesis, my fingers flow out Dvorak... QWERTY is impossible. I go to a flat, and Dvorak is nearly impossible. This is the perfect combination for a sysadmin/techie who needs to sit at everyone's machine every so often. Plus, no one can use my workstation.
It's not the speed. I type the same speed on either. It's the comfort. You simply don't move the fingers as much on a Dvorak layout. Also, I'm much more 'proper' about which fingers do what on the Kinesis Dvorak. It's not arbitrary, like I am on the flat QWERTY I learned at 4 years old.
The bottom line is that as long as we have to twiddle our fingers for data entry, RSIs continue will be a problem. It's just a question of improving posture to minimize injury.
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I have a MS Kurvy Keyboard (AKA "natural") and I can say that it does make a difference. After years of "normal" keyboard use, my wrists were getting quite sore. I finally bought a MS keyboard. I can type all day with it. If I use a "normal" keyboard, my hands are aching after 15 minutes. I would be lost without it.
it's the people using them. The problem is the people with these problems do NOTHING BUT tapping away on the keyboard. You GOTTA do other things. Get outside and play frisbee or something. ANYTHING!
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I myself owned an "ergonomic" chair about 3 years ago and it didn't help or do anything helpful to my spine and posture worth a shit. You know what the chair was... no wheels (move darnit), must actually sit on your buttocks and knees (ouch), with your calves and feet directly positioned under your buttocks (oomph). After 1 hour of sitting, your knees would just start aching and pulsating like crazy as if you KNEW when to get up and stretch (never again).
Ergonomic keyboards are the opposite. The ergonomic keyboards simply allow you to type "comfortably", that is, they make the keyboard bigger by spacing the left-hand keystrokes 2 feet from the keys you retain as right-hand keystrokes. The result is you look like a bird with your arms at length, twiddling away at 50 words per minute... And such, we all still have pain.
My name is D.W. DogMeyer, attorney at law, and I ask all you people to join me in a class action lawsuite against Intel, AMD, HP, Compaq, Dell, Microsoft, Corel, IBM, Inprise, Quicken, Logitech, Sony, Sega, Nintendo, Interact, SGI, Gravis, and GQ for the assessment of damages caused by their products.
We'll be filthy rich and I won't hafta chase anymore ambulances and screw anyone's granny for a whole year. Thankyou.
Mice are important too for an ergonomic enviroment. I have two of those cool logitech mice with optical sensors. I would recomended them to any one! They fit just right in your hand, 3 buttons and scroll wheel and very easy to use.
I used a MS keyboard for years, nice, I guess, but all it did was screw me up when I went to other keyboards.
now all I use is a Virtually Indestructible Keyboard I got at radioshack. It works and I don't have to worry about toting it to lan parties or even spiling a soda on it.
Convenience over Ergo for me
-- This sig intentionally left blank --
THE WORLD IS GOING TO END!!!! eventually.
I had a bout with tendonitis/carpel tunnel (depending on which doctor I asked) a number of years ago and immediately switched from a normal keyboard to an ergonomic one, eventually finding one from Kinesis (Specifically the Classic) that actually helped. I have found this keyboard to be a great help, and after a bit of research it's actually pretty clear why.
;)
The whole deal with ergonomic keyboards is that to be effective they need to eliminate wrist possitions which cause your tendons to drag along the edges of your wrist, which causes inflamation. The key to this seems to be maintaining a natural "relaxed" wrist position which allows the tendons to do their work right in the middle of the wrist.
Of course people vary quite a bit, so it seems that what works for some doesn't work for everyone. I've found that I'm particularly sensitive to this kind of injury (don't ask me why, I just am...) so the Kinesis is the only thing that works for me. I've met plenty of folks who don't need something this extreme because the more "normal" ergo keyboards change their possition enough that they stop having problems - generally the Kinesis will also work for them, but is over kill. Those more "normal" ergo keyboards don't do crap for me.
I've also met plenty of people who just don't seem to have a problem with this stuff. I don't know what it is, but some people seem susceptible and others can spend fifty years typing on a standard keyboard and never have a problem. Go figure.
I'm tempted to say that the "normal" ergo keyboards are a scam, because they don't work for me, but they seem to help enough borderline folks that I just keep my mouth shut instead. If you're having real wrist issues though don't write off all ergo keyboards until you check out the Kinesis ones. They provide a much more robust solution to bad positioning than any of the others, many of which focus on how "turned in" your hands are while ignoring the degree of flex in your wrists.
And of course, the position of the rest of your body matters too.
I'm unwilling to say that ergo keyboards are a waste or a scam for the simple reason that without them I couldn't code anymore. I did that for a while before I found the Kinesis, and it was bad. My life as a waiter is not a pretty thing
Behold the Power of Cheese!
Look, we're all built a little differently, we've all had different physical histories, and our work habits are different. We're all different. So it make sense that ONE ergonomic solution for ALL people won't work.
Some people are going to strongly prefer the MS Natural keyboards, some people need the 1993 Sun keyboard.
If you experience pain with your current setup, you'll probably need to try a few different keyboards before you find one that works for you.
Personally, I strongly prefer to use the MS Nautral keyboards. Except for the small arrow keypad, I find that it causes the least amount of pain or discomfort of any keyboard that I've used. I work 8+ hours a day on a keyboard.
I use a Sun Ultra5 at work, with a MS Natural keyboard plugged into a converter. I can't get PS/2 mice to work correctly (THe middle button doesn't cut-n-paste), so I use a 3-button boxy Sun mouse (Plugged into a second Sun keyboard which hides under my desk).
My biggest gripe isn't the keyboard, it's the mouse. Sun has a small selection of mice, and their standard box mouse just doesn't work. Most PS/2 mice do not work with a converter (The middle button doesn't cut and paste).
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
(Of course, you'd still need the armed guard standing behind Jon Katz and forcing him to use his, but progress comes in small steps...)
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It's not the keyboard stupid!
It's the desk and the chair. The keyboard isn't going to make a difference if it's shoulder high.
Get the $5.00 keyboard and put it on your lap.
Get your Unix fortune now!
Our behaviour is adapting to the peripherals.
I got very bad pain in my right hand pointer finger from using the mouse so much. Now I shifted my hand over by one finger and use my middle finger for the left button, ring finger (between the middle and the pinky) for the right button and shift my middle finger over by one button temporarily if I have I have to press the middle roller button.
That's what you get for getting addicted to strategy games.
For a number of years I had your run of the mill, cheep keyboard. Once I started programming, my wrists started to hurt. A friend of mine gave me a PC concepts ergo keyboard and low and behold, my wrists no longer hurt. Now ever time I go back and work on an old keyboard, my hands start to hurt after only a few minutes using it.
I feel that my extensive use of a computer, and my 5 years working as a physical rehabilitation aid in a hospital give me a good perspective on this.
I spend 12 -16 hours a day on the computer, so I'm sure that my setup is a testament that ergo helps. But it's not just the keyboard. You need to have a good chair; the desk the correct height, your screen can't be too close or too faraway, etc. There are many factors in ergo, but to me the keyboard has been the defining part of the setup.
Math is like sex. People who get it are popular in class, people who don't are not.
Try remapping the keyboard to dvorak. I did so in an effort to increase my speed. While my speed is about the same, my hands are no longer as sore as they use to be after extended periods of typing.
I typed for years on a 101 key "regular" keyboard, since I was a kid, and never have I had any pain or discomfort. Then my dad bought a MS Natural and I HATED it. I kept having to look down to check what keys were on which side of the break (as someone mentioned already) and it was a hassle. But once I learned the layout again I loved it, and in the 3 years since I've bought two for myself. These days I can't stand using traditional keyboards. They feel too crowded and I hate bending my wrists in to cram into such a small area. For me it's not about pain, just freedom of movement and general comfort I guess.
My other comp. is a Cadillac.
You don't like using Microsofts Operating System, yet you LOVE THEIR KEYBOARDS!
I just don't undertand you lot.
I've been using computers nearly every day of my life since the mid 80s and I've come to realize that the most important tool you can use to combat RSI/CTS/etc. is common sense. Yes, it really can be that simple.
If it hurts, stop doing it.
If you find that your wrists hurt after an hour of typing in a certain position, STOP! Examine your work space and figure out a way to change the way you're sitting. If the keyboard is up high, lower it. If it's low, raise it. If it's sitting at a funny angle, straighten it out.
I can't count the number of times I've heard someone complain about how their arm/wrist/neck/etc. hurts at the end of the day and I go look at their workspace to find that they've got their mouse on a shoulder-high stack of books, keyboard perched half on, half off a stack of papers, and/or a monitor at a 40-70 degree angle to their line of sight. Does it occur to them to fix any of this? Nope.
When I was a kid, I'd occasionally type with the keyboard in my lap. One day I noticed that my wrists hurt and my forearms were aching after a couple hours of that. So I stopped doing it. One day I had my mouse perched on a stack of Macs by my desk, about a foot higher than normal. At the end of the day, my shoulder hurt from constantly being lifted from keyboad to mouse all day long. So I made sure I never did that again. At home, I had two monitors and noticed that my neck would hurt if I worked on the one on the left (about 45 degrees off axis) for a long time. So I got a KVM switch and only use one monitor now.
I don't use a wrist pad or ergonomic keyboard or anything of the kind. That doesn't mean I think they're not useful. If I needed one to help with my typing posture, you bet I'd have one. And a couple of spares in the closet. Same with gloves and split keyboards and funky chairs.
I don't doubt that there are very real cases of RSI/CTS/etc. but I have no sympathy for people who spend 8 hours a day doing something that causes pain and don't do anything to try and fix the problem.
The Alternative Keyboard Gallery compares a bunch of commercial and prototype ergonomic keyboards (lots of images -- great resource if your looking for an ergo keyboard).
I knew exactly what was happening to me, but at the time I was trying to start a business and didn't have health insurance. Becoming panicked, I goaded my partners into starting the search for insurnace we could afford - amid the spiraling costs and free-fall benefits currently available, this took 5 months. Toward the end, I was unable to work.
I read every single piece of literature on the internet about RSI, and then I moved on to the library and the medical books. This condition has happened in my family, and I immediately knew how much trouble I was in. Everything said the same thing: "see a specialist now - don't wait!" But I couldn't! And I inevitably ended up looking at the major "RSI keyboards" - i.e. Twiddler and Datahand. I "evaluated" the Datahand (this is a $1,000+ investment, but still less than the consultation fee of a good specialist) for several months.
The principle seemed sound to me - the literature they had appeared convincing and the salesman I spoke to claimed to be an RSI sufferer himself who had been helped "dramatically" by the keyboard. It got a lot of comments sitting on my desk - the thing looks quite sci-fi. However, the learning curve was steep (at least for me) - it took weeks of constant effort in order to get to a third of my current 90wpm. Convinced I might be saving my wrists, I let this massive and unbearable disruption to my work continue unabated, but I found that I still felt pain, and at the end of the day, I still felt numb. In hopeful moments, I thought perhaps it would pass as I gained proficiency with the keyboard.
Eventually I more or less stopped working altogether, using interns and co-workers to type for me. My partners started to get nervous - far from sticking with their friend, I knew they were starting to wonder how they could get rid of this medical disaster in their midst. I started to contemplate what the rest of my life would be like without the ability to type or perform other similarly intricate motions with my hands.
Finally, the insurance came through, and I canvased New York, looking for the best specialst I could find. In an oak-paneled office a few blocks from Lincoln Center, I mingled with young musical prodigies and their handlers, and I was given two cortisone injections, an exercise regimen, and a piece of advice:
"Those keyboards aren't worth the plastic they're molded out of."
I went back on the regular keyboard, and within weeks, I was 100% back to normal.
So, in summary:
We're on the road to Tycho.
I personally found, switching from a standard to an ergo keyboard, that I typed a lot faster, and I didnt have that warming wrists that I got with the standard keyboard. Note that when buying the ergo keyboard I also bought a new chair and desk - thats probably more of the issue. Buying a keyboard wont really help if you have bad posture and/or computer setup.
I have been using normal keyboards in all flavours ( soft/mushy, IBM click, laptop etc ) and I don't have a CTS. The only thing computer-wise giving me pain is playing quake/tribes2/any_other_fps, where I strain the upper body to keep the reflexes good. Unfortunately, being an 'old man' my shoulders kill me long before my wrists do :-)
My mother cannot use a mouse for extended periods of time anymore. She has to use a trackball. Mabye ergo keyboards/trackballs don't prevent pains, but the sure do help to relieve the pain.
The Facts About Repetitive Strain Injuries -- An interview with Scott Wright, Webmaster and Primary Caretaker of the Typing Injury FAQ.
How to Download YouTube Videos
The Kinesis changed my life, pure and simple. Before this keyboard I tried many alternatives, including the MS Natural keyboard, and none of them releived me of the constant pain in my hands. At one point in my career it got so bad that the pain at night prevented me from sleeping -- even if I spent a day or two away from the computer.
After trying the Kinesis, not only do I feel that my typing is faster (and ABSOLUTELY more comfortable), my pain is all but gone -- and this includes stretches of days with 20 hours of typing per day.
It's impossible for me to heap enough superlatives at this product. To say that it saved my career as a computer scientist is not overstating it. I can recommend it whole-heartedly, and urge anyone who has pain to at least give it a shot.
I'm in no way associated with Kineses (other than being a very satisfied customer) but I am so impressed with their keyboards that I actually offered to invest in the company (at the time they weren't soliciting outside investors).
Here is where I bought my keyboard (see the picture of it on the home page): DMB Ergonomics
And here is some additional information that might be helpful:
Alternative Keyboards
Typing Injury FAQ
The standard QWERTY keyboards in use today are still a mess, and could still be improved. And improving them might even help prevent RSI. But my understanding of it, gleaned from the Doctors I've worked with is that the keyboard itself is a relatively small part of the puzzle, with work habits (regular breaks!), posture, chair and desk, and other aspects of your fitness (most of the exercises I did were back-related) making up the majority.
At the very least, I wouldn't mind seeing Dvorak keyboards come into style.
We're on the road to Tycho.
I am sitting in front of that damn machine a lot.
I type without watching the keyboard as fast as with.
A few years ago it all started: My wrists had some sting,
I had pain when lifting weighty stuff.
I could be on holiday for a month, not the single touch of a keyboard,
but the pain did not go away entirely
I bought a MS Natural Pro. It worked wonders. After using it three
days only, all the pain went away ! I know this sounds ridiculos, but I swear !
Though...about a year later, still using that keyboard,
I start having pain again. And I am somewhat confused by this.
Not talking of my eyes...They started getting worse 3 weeks ago.
DAMN! How will I earn money when I am blind and a cripple ?
Speaking of which, a careful review of the specs shows that some very expensive office chairs are in fact not suitable for prolonged use. They seem to be for the busy exec who never sits down.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
It may be entirely psychological, but I feel much more relaxed when I use an ergo keyboard. I also seem to be able to type much faster.
I feel weird whenever I type on a regular keyboard. About 6 years ago when I was a computer science major, I found that I started having pains in my wrists after working at the computer for a long time. I decided to buy an ergonomic keyboard and found that the pains went away almost immediately, and it only took a few weeks to get used to the different key layout. Now I can even type faster than I did before. I just wish that they would standardize the layout of ergonomic keyboards because most of them are different from each other and put the 6, b and y keys on differing sides.
I went to a class given by our university about ergonomics. The people there seem to encourage students to stay away from the kinesis and microsoft/logitech models of this world. The best keyboards they said where the split keyboard model made by gold touch (a respectable company who has been in business for long time but with a ad budget lower than MS and the others) and the now defunct Apple ADB model which was a direct reap off of the gold touch model.
Living on Apple reputation to design always cool stuff, it's a shame that they stopped making that keyboard.
The position of the forearm seems to dictate according to the instructor the problem related ot wristh pain. He also mentionned that the laptop keyboards are worse than desktop keyboard because they will let you palm rest at the same level than the keyboard. Not to mention the most of the time smaller form factor associated with laptop keyboards.
Since I went to that class, and because I love the laptop form factor (me japanese), I keep my hand elevated while typing which gives my gesture an elegant touch. Not that I had pain before but like in many other activities, prevention is better than being sorry.
PPA, the girl next door.
-- I feel better now. Thanks for asking.
not effective.
I bought three of those fuckas and none of the three is Ergonomic. They stalled my job and I've lost monay.
A marketing plot.
I use an old ibm at home and an ergo at work. Ergos are much better for hand positioning, as you dont have to pull your elbows in as much. If i use the ibm, i use a gelpad. Gelpads rock for keyboards and mice, having saved me from bone spurs, carpal tunnel, etc...!
Keith Emerson and Carl Palmer (of ELP) have both had problems with music related RSI.
Check this link out: Music RSI
Don't anthropomorphize computers, they don't like it.
I screwed up my hands early on from typing incorrectly way too much.. like to the point that for a month or two I couldn't really use my left hand for opening bottles / driving. I now have a Kinesis Essential, and while it took a month or so to get to where I could go at any reasonable speed, it's helped and I can now go at about the same speed as on a regular keyboard. What's helped more though has been making sure to take breaks and use better posture - take the keyboard OUT of your lap while typing...
I also use funky arm rests , which help considerably with mouse use and shoulder/back pain, and I got a fairly normal office chair, but spent some time finding one that actually fit my back right.
These days I do pretty well w/o pain, and that's 70+ work hours/week on the computer + any time I might spend doing my own stuff after work.
I write code.
If use an ergonomic M$ keyboard, my hands, particularly my wrists, don't hurt.
If don't use one, and after a few hours, my hands hurt quite a bit and I can't type any longer.
Reason I went with M$, is 'cause it is relatively cheap and easy to replace with a similar unit if something happens (like I spill coffee into it).
Actually it turns out they are really easy to fix if you happen to fill them with coffee, but I didn't know that at the time (couple of layers of vinyl inside, cleans up easily).
Tried switching back recently when they upgraded my computer at work. Nice new dell keyboard. Same old problem. Went back to my old keyboard, even though it doesn't match the cool black Dell box and monitor.
Can only speak for myself.
If I type at top speed (120-130wpm) after about 5 minutes on a normal keyboard, my wrists start to hurt. On a natural keyboard I get about 15 minutes before i start to experience any discomfort. Since I'm not normally typing so much so quickly it's not an issue all the time (ie- I can use normal keyboards for some stuff), however the natural keyboard is much nicer to my wrists in my experience. .02
just my
Back to the keyboards, in any kind of collaborative (or pair) programming situations, the worst of them can make taking over typing almost impossible for the non-needy. I've been in the situation where it would have been easier to check a source file in and walk around to my own computer (and keyboard) to check it out again. Ok, perhaps it would have been easiest to plug-and-pray my keyboard back and forth.
Thinking of forth, Chuck Moore is in to that keyboard stuff too....
If I feel better at typing on an ergonomic keyboard, it is effective for me.
"Touch typists" who don't look at the keyboard, but look straight ahead at their monitors can, through proper placement of their monitors, maintain good posture throughout the work day.
I am not an ergonomics expert, but there's nothing inherently wrong with touch-typing either. More that the way keyboard are normally positioned force your wrist into a prone position.
BTW. there are exercises you can do to help prevent carpal-tunnel from keyboarding.
It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
When my right wrist starting hurting this January, I decided to change several things. First, I gave up my cheap Packard Bell keyboard in favor of one of the old, loud IBM models. This thing feels so much better. I don't know about any new, oddly-shaped keyboards, but this feels great to me. Additionally, I got a keyboard drawer to position it at a better height, which helped.
I also talked to one of my martial arts instructors (who is also a chiropractor) about exercises to help. He showed me several that have also made a big difference. In case you're wondering, it's an Indonesian art called Pentjak Silat, and the exercises involve sticks (I also take Jujitsu, which does have some wrist stretching, though Aikido would do more).
Aside from martial arts, I also play several musical instruments, and I think that the variety of motion is probably also beneficial.
PS: Yes, I do use qwerty touch typing, and have since I was around 10 (I'm almost 25 now). I think my problems may have been brought on by a period of time in which I didn't play much music, was doing less martial arts, and was writing many pages of Japanese characters. The fact that my left wrist is fine deepens this suspicion.
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
The problem I find with most "ergonomic" keyboards is that the angle they split the keyboard at is too wide for me...and the adjustable ones are too flimsy. I sometimes work 14 hours a day on my keyboard...and I quickly can feel the strain. What did help me muchly was dumping the mouse. I first of all tried the Logitec trackball that uses the thumb, and that was nearly as bad as the mouse...then I moved to the "Marble Mouse", the one where your hand sits on top of it and you use your index finger to move the trackball, and the buttons are on either side of where you rest your hand. Well, placed, it causes virtually no strain on my wrist. I tend to use Keytronic keyboards with their soft touch, but full travel keys. Nice.
ttyl
Farrell
CAN-CON 2019 - Ottawa's only book oriented Science Fiction Convention! October 18-20, Sheraton Hotel, Ottawa, Canada h
For the most part, I have not suffered from RSI. However, I'm a hardcore emacs user, which means holding down the control key much of the time I'm typing. The first step I took in dealing with this was to put the control key where it should be (where most keyboards put the caps lock key), but that only helped to a point. The only complete solution I've found to emacs pinky is to use a keyboard where the control key is activated by the thumb.
The only keyboard I know of that offers this is the Kinesis ergonomic keyboard. Kinesis makes many claims about the ergonomic qualities of their keyboards, but the only things about them I care about are:
1) My left pinky doesn't hurt anymore. My thumbs seem more resilient.
2) My right wrist doesn't hurt from twisting to reach the backspace key.
Ergonomics are a very personalized thing. I had specific ergonomics issues that the Kinesis keyboard solved. I'm sure that other people have found adequate solutions to completely different sets of problems. The key to solving the problems though is to actually figure out what is causing the pain and find a different way of doing things.
During my thesis work, I had a lot of strain on the muscles and tendons on the pinky-side of my forearms. I actually had to stop all work for about four days at one point. Once I got the split keyboard, the problem disappeared. (It was also helped by using Dragon Naturally Speaking to dictate parts of my thesis.)
Going back to my old keyboard afterward, I also found that the keys are stiffer. I think that was also part of it.
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
I am typing as long as I can remeber (I got my first spectrum at the age of 5).
:) - I would recommend buying M$ keyboard (I know, I know, M$ is evil and stuff), because their design is more egronomic - buttons in the bottom row (CTRL, ALT, WIN, Properties) are very large - they are tiny on the Logitech keyboard. Also, Logitech has decided to save space some more by changing the layout of position buttons: Home and End key are aligned in one row over Insert and PgUp key (so you get a 2x3 matrix instead of 3x2). This can be confusing at beginnig until you are used to it.
A few years ago I started getting pains in my wrists. They were not very sharp, but prevented me, for example, for doing push ups. I would have this pains on and off every couple of months.
It took me a while to figure out what was wrong. I then changed keyboards - at work I use Microsoft Natural Keyboard and at home Logitech Wireless Natural. The good news is I have not had any problems ever since.
Just a suggestion to people reading this article and deciding to go with "natural look"
Just my 0.02 Euro.
boky
I suffered from carpal tunnel syndrome and now I'm mostly over it. I believe that my recovery is due in equal parts to rotating among three keyboards so that my wrists aren't always in the same position, good typing habits, and practicing the exercises recommended by the America Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons to prevent injury.
The AAOS page with infos on this is located at:
http://www.aaos.org/wordhtml/press/exerci.htm [aaos.org]
Cheers!
Ehttp://eugeneciurana.com | http://ciurana.eu
Most people I know that use the "ergo" keyboards have told me that they did so out of necessity (aka, it was the only keyboard they could get). Most have also said that they didn't like the ergo keyboard at first either, but became "used" to them after a period of them, and then after that, standard keyboards were the ones that felt odd to them.
While I did say that I prefer standard keyboards, chances are that if I WAS forced to use an "ergo", i'd probably eventually get used to it as well and eventually be able to type on one as effectively as I do on a standard.
I used to work for a company that specialised in ergonomic products to reduce RSI symptoms, including keyboards, mice, pads, mats, Speech Recog software and RSI software. I was typing a lot, so replaced my Mac's standard keyboard with an ergo keyboard. The difference it made was immeasurable comfort. Since then I've started using a laptop, and I find that if the position I'm in is uncomfortable, I can just pick up and go work somewhere else - a different desk, chair, lie down on a couch or bed and use it, go lounge outside - whatever.
These things DO work - along with taking frequent mini-breaks (30 secs per 10 minutes), and stretching your arm muscles.
Also, make sure you take your eyes away from the screen and focus on something far away - outside, for example. That always helps.
RSI is a problem, and prevention IS the solution.
catch (HumourFailureException e) { e.user.send("You, sir, are a humourless idiot."); }
There are physiological differences between people that make the difference where carpal tunnel syndrome is concerned. I lucked out, being big-boned, so I have a large carpal tunnel for my tendons to travel through. Some people have such a small gap that any sort of repetitive finger motions will bring on the symptoms. For a lot of people it's borderline; operating in non-ideal conditions will cause some problems, but paying attention to ergonomics can definitely help.
I combined common sense and professional advice with practical application for a successful outcome.
...
I used to have dull aches and pains on my right, upper forearm. Learning to mouse left-handed fixed that problem (~2 weeks to become proficient). Now I right-mouse at work and left-mouse at home to achieve a nice balance and I don't have that pain anymore.
Fast forward two years
I was waking up about three times a night with numb hands. I saw my doctor and he said it was a symptom of carpal tunnel syndrome. I researched on the Net and decided to go with the Kinesis Contour keyboard ( http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/ ). I also modified my seating area to improve kb height, monitor view, etc. The Countour is very good for typing letters, but using Emacs and vi is still sometimes challenging (I'd gotten use to Ctrl-[ for Esc). It is easier on my hands and I feel less pain and I got down to waking up only a few times a week with hand numbness.
I went back to the doctor and he sent me to a sleep lab, where I found out I have Sleep Apnea. Now I use CPAP to sleep at night.
By combining common sense and professional advice/eq with practical application, I have successfully eliminated pain, improved my sleep at night, and I'm now more productive during the day.
NB: My docoter also said CTS cannot be eliminated by these devices, but if the pain is subsided, then that is enough for me right now.
How come I never heard of any of the secretaries, who used manual typewriters for decades, complain of carpal tunnel or repetitive strain injuries?
Could is be that it's because modern keyboards are too soft and mushy? That desk ergonomics aren't the same as typing ergonomics? That all that reaching for the mouse screws things up?
I've never had any health problems due to typing in my 15+ years of computi-*crack*-Oh $#*& my wrists!
I haven't followed this field closely, but from what I've seen, the science hasn't seemed to advance since then, mostly because companies are spending big dollars to prevent studies from going forward, and the Republicans want to keep the government off our backs by preventing any regulation or much research into ergonomics. (In my paper, I noted that legal tort-liability rules were shifting so that manufacturers -- who would almost certainly have been held liable if their appeals reached the courts in the early or mid 80's -- would probably win their appeals in the 90's, which is mostly what happened.)
My own opinion is that the number one ergonomic problem today is the desk. Despite study after study showing that worker injuries are reduced if desks are adjustable, nobody (including me) wants to spend a thousand bucks more for an "ergonomic" desk that allows for adjustment of the surface and especially the keyboard level. (Instead, we spend much more on lost work time and on chiropractors, etc.)
Adjusting the chair (though important) is not enough since lowering the chair means awkwardly repositioning the legs, and the torso follows into a poor position.
Of course, one problem is that nobody offers an ergonomic desk at a reasonable price. Are there patents or something preventing someone from selling a $500 adjustable-height desk? Instead, whenever I've shopped, prices start somewhere north of $1,000, for the flimsiest adjustable desks, and $2,000 for anything decent.Another ergonomic problem that I've quickly solved was the mouse. After many months of shoulder and elbow pain, I switched from a mouse to a trackball (I think it was in 1992 or 1993), and the pain simply vanished. Sometimes I do get wrist and finger pain, but that fades if I remember to switch regularly between two slightly different style trackballs. (But please don't use a lousy trackball, stick to the Logitech red-ball trackballs.)
Finally, things like posture and work breaks are absolutely essential. Any employer who allows employees to sit hunched over a keyboard for hours without a break, probably deserves to pay immense sums for insurance (workers' comp and health). It is not an employee's right (even a self-righteous coder) to sit hunched over the keyboard for hours. Breaks MUST be taken, in which the employee at least stands up and raises her arms!
Finally, let me recall my favorite case in researching ergonomic liability lawsuits. One of the phone companies (I think it was US West) had instructed its consultants/contractors to design a 411/directory/information-service terminal that did NOT display characters as they were typed, because their research showed that employees slowed down their typing speed if they waited to see if the correct character was displayed. Of course, once the employees couldn't see what they were typing, their natural tendency was to pound the keys harder to be sure the character was being recorded (since there was no feedback about what level of keystroke pressure was enough). The result was a 100% injury rate (RSI/carpal tunnel).
-- http://www.MarkWelch.com/ Pleasanton California
I've played with various keyboards, both ergonomic and non-ergonomic. Your ordinary Microsoft Natural Keyboard doesn't seem to do much for me, but I'm typing on a Kinesis Maxim (someone else already linked the site), and at school (yes, I'm a college student) I'm stuck with non-ergonomic keyboards and more often than not, the worst mice I've ever touched (the Apple hockey pucks). It is not a coincidence that when I try to do things at school my wrists sometimes pain me.
Then again, I don't really blame them for keeping the puckmice... the nifty Apple optical mice get stolen constantly. Sigh. Wish someone would take the puckmice instead so I could have something useful to work with.
One keyboard I haven't seen mentioned that deserves such is a Datahand keyboard, possibly the strangest looking keyboard I've ever seen. My boyfriend used to type on one before his ligamentitis prevented him from typing at all, and he did say it reduced pain. It let him keep his job an additional couple months until he was laid off (due to unrelated causes).
As for all of you whining about RSI being nonexistant... I must disagree. See the paragraph up there about my boyfriend? His wrists are in such bad shape that he can't type AT ALL or do anything that involves his hands for extended periods of time without pain. This includes driving, lifting, pushing buttons on a cash register, writing... the list goes on. He's currently going back to college, where he's actually needing other people to help him write, take notes, and if he weren't living with someone willing to help him by typing up papers and essentially be his secretary, I don't know where he'd be. It's bad enough not being able to use your hands, but to be insulted by claiming that since "I don't feel the pain, it must not exist," is ludicrous. Are there people using carpal tunnel as a gold mine? I'm sure there are, and they deserve to be ignored, but honestly, when it gets to the point where you'd be better off if you had no hands at all, things are out of hand.
I'll stop ranting now. Honest. But this is a big issue to me, for fairly obvious reasons.
Generally, I've liked the QuietKey keyboard series from Dell. It's too bad you can't order them seperatly as all they have available online are inane offerings from MS and Logitech with all kind of useless keys and functions. So I resort to stealing them when a new server comes in.
I also absolutely need a good wrist pad and mouse pad. I highly recommend the Fellowes products for this. I rest the base of my hands on the wrist-pad and my fingers reach accross the keyboard in a fairly natural position.
I'm also very picky about the kind of mouse I use. In particular, I prefer the optical mice that focus on a light form.
The Happy Hacker keyboard was nice too, I appreciate it for the quality of the key feel, but eventually had to ditch it for a lack of number pad and function keys.
I recommend switching the caps-lock and ctrl keys around too. Makes editing and just general functions much easier to perform.
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
Since I grew up using the older straight style keyboards, well, we're talking teletypes and then green amber mainframe terminals, my wrists kinduv "grew" into the straight style keyboard. Now trying the "natural" keyboard for even a few minutes (assuming I can find the dang keys) hurts my wrists. Yet I can go for hours on a straight keyboard.
For mousing I use a soft gel wrist rest and a mouse set to extremely high sensitivity. Grasping the mouse between thumb and little finger allows full mouse usage just bend and flexing fingers slightly. No wrist movement at all, wrist nicely relaxed and comfy.
Keyboards? For me, the mouse was the problem. I added an extra ergonomic kensington usb mouse for my right hand, and I put my old mouse to the left, and every couple of hours I kept on switching between the two. This practice slowed me down initially, but it completely made the pain of my right wrist go away.
Stephan
PS: The two mouses could work at the same time, but I still needed to go back to the control panel everytime I needed to inverse the mouse buttons.
I persuaded her to give the Logitech Optical Trackball a try, and she loves it. All the carpal-tunnel problems seem to have gone away, and when you watch her play games now, she can make that trackball fly!
I note that a few others said they had mouse problems as well... maybe this will help.
"My opinions are my own, and I've got *lots* of them!"
that's a tidbit bound into a blurb.
/. is a paying gig you guys could put a little effort into the link selections? this one is just debate fodder, no substance. c'mon. you can do much better. fire up google.
it's a real problem and a difficult subject. perhaps since
for what it's worth, if someone is thinking about ergo keyboards, try a few and hope you get lucky. for me it's the ms ergo 1. later models don't have the angle adjustment, and have even worse key action.
i lost last year to hand pain so did a lot of research and experiments to try to get back. i've typed hard since 1975. all i can say for certain is there was no warning. i thought i was just sore from another long day. i ended up crippled.
back off when you're sore. see a specialist. research the web. and don't believe there will be a simple answer. you're going to have to find your own set of solutions.
if you've got bucks, do get a keyboad with real key action. don't use one that sends a signal when the key bottoms out. that's like typing on concrete.
go to a thrift store a try an old ibm selectric typewriter. that's the key action you want.
i'm still sore and have to soak my arms several times a day and take anti-inflamatories, but i can type again. not being able to use your hands is terrifying. watch out for the warning signs and take action.
I'm never giving up my MS Pro Ergo USB!!!!!!!
:(
Seriously though, as a hardcore gamer and addicted computer geek who has logged an average of about 14 hours per day in front of the computer, I love the damn thing. If only MS could build an OS as good as this keyboard.
I know, lots and lots of you are old school and hate ergo keyboards. I once worked at a medium sized company that mandated that everyone switched. about 4/5 people switched withing one day and none of them I still talk to ever went back. The other 1/5 never even tried to switch.
I started on a C-64, so I guess I count as old school too! If only I could get an Ergo keyboard on my Dell Inspiron Laptop.
One note though... all ergo keyboards aren't created equal. If you get one, get a good solid keyboard. Don't be cheap.
Thanks,
money_shot
< rant >
This past year I've done more coding then I ever thought I'd be able to do. Usually around 13 hours a day of straight C coding I don't have any RSIs... but then again I go to the gym for at least an hour every day (it's great for relieving stress and keeping energy levels up).
Maybe there's a connection there??
<
Oh god, that woman is John Romero!
are their hardware products. I use the V1 "Natural" keyboard, and it is much easier to type on than a "normal" keyboard. Since I started using these ergo keyboards, I haven't had any trouble with my wrists at all.
I've had problems with CPS since I was a teenager (very unusual, aparently - but most teenagers aren't geeks like me), and it's probably inherited. It's so bad that I can't wear a watch without my hand getting numb.
I can't believe that people get disorders simply because of using a mouse or a keyboard everday. I sit in front of a computer, at least 5 hours a day. In peak periods it's more like 10 hours, and I've done this for years, and it hasn't had any sideeffects. I use a normal keyboard and a normal microsoft mouse. and this, eventhough I have hypermobile joints!!!
I can only urge people to make sure they take breaks and relax as they sit in front of the computer...maybe take up smoking (for the breakes you get during the day..hehe..) MOJN!
I will blog about your incompetence @ http://www.barelyadraft.com
I play the piano for at least 2 hours every day, and I'm in front of a computer keyboard for another 4 to 6 hours.
Interestingly, the most uncomfortable action for me is mousing! If I have to do something like Image Editing for hours at a time, I have to take breaks or risk getting a sore hand and wrist.
I think the way you sit, how relaxed you are, and how fat you are are more important to working a keyboard without injury than the particular layout of the computer keyboard.
Pianists learn quickly that the way to get "velocity" and fluidity at the piano is not to waste any energy! Don't keep "pressing" at the key once it's down, just let gravity hold you hand on it, and don't move your hands and fingers any more than absolutely necessary.
The same holds true on a computer keyboard. Learn how to type properly. "Eyes on copy" with your hand in the proper position; Don't press at the keys any harder than needed.
--
Ask the Ya-Hoot Oracle Anything!
My right wrist hurts sometimes, after a long session. But guess what? It's not the keyboard.
In my case, and maybe in many other people's cases, it the mouse. God, how I hate mouses. Having to sustain your arm in the air while you move the mouse around, your hand always resting on the same position, your fingers having to repeatedly perform the same movements...
I've tried a lot of different things, from changing mouses to changing the way I hold them, to changing the way I sit. I've tried trackballs and touchpads, I even tried a foot-operated gizmo I got to build with a couple of guys from work.
Some things work, some things don't. All in all, I'd go for trackballs, wirelless ones, the kind you can place wherever you want to (desk, arm of chair, lap) and still do your stuff.
Many people in the (computer) business don't type all day long. Still, every time I hear about ergonomics people only talk about the keyboards. And, no, I don't think I'm alone in this.
free the mallocs!
I quite regularly work at a computer for 12 hours a day, sometimes more. A few years back I started to get occassional aches and pains, particularly in my fingers and wrists. However nowdays I rarely get anything, and I certainly don't work any less, for me the solution seemed to be...
1. Logitech trackerballs. I have two computers on my desk and I use a different type for each - one driven by my thumb and the other the symmetrical one using the index finger. Logitech are by far the best trackerballs - microsoft ones are ok and anything else is invariably crap. using a trackerball IMHO is the most important thing preventing a problem.
2. Split keyboards. I use these and find them comfortable, but of lesser importance than trackerballs.
3. Breaks. I'm fortunate and work from home, so no-one is looking over my shoulder. I always keep something else to do in the office or nearby - painting my sons models, go and sort out the plants - at the moment there's a rc model plane being built. I stop every hour or two and spend some time doing something else completely different.
I have a friend who experienced a lot of pain from using mice as his pointing device. He switched to a Logitech trackball, and it stopped.
...but only for musicians who play their instruments 6+ hours every day.
How many of those are there? Compare to the number of people who use keyboards for 6+ hours per day.
The problem for musicians is old and well-recognized, so exercises and techniques to avoid RSI are part of the formal education of almost every serious music student.
So it's a relatively small pool of people, many of whom are carefully taught to avoid the problem. Of course you're not going to hear about it much.
RSI is present among musicians. However, it is always attributed to poor fundamental technique. Touch typing technique is rarely discussed, yet touch typing is more widely used than other types of keyboarding. What are elements of proper technique?
1) Correct positioning
2) Conservation of motion
3) Proper posture
Don't be silly. Under Windows, MacOS, and Linux (and probably all other major OSes) you can specify any keyboard layout you want. I've contemplated the idea of switching to Dvorak for a few years but just haven't gone through with it. But I did at least set up my Win2k desktop in anticipation of making the switch -- it takes at most three minutes to do.
Freedom to fear. Freedom from thought. Freedom to kill.
I guess the War on Terror really is about freedom!
Carpal Tunnel is a mighty mean thing....and it's really, really common where you least expect it. Computer users can adapt to a non-ergonomic environment. Personally, Ive started using the foam wrist brace for the keyboard, and have transitioned to the fully programmable, four button, Cordless Trackman FX made by Logitech. So, no problems there.
However, as a member of both a full band and orchestra, I see RSI and CTS all the time. I see flutists wearing wrist braces prior to auditions, to keep their hands from going numb. Violinists and violists use special braces to keep from getting neck cramps, and clarinets & oboes have equipment to take pressure off their thumbs.
So, most (read:popular) instruments have methods developed to take care of this. But then you have others. Tuba and sousaphone players have a horrible time, stretching and carrying such a big instrument. Myself, I'll get shooting pains along my left arm during long practices on the bassoon, easily the least ergonomic instrument. There's no alternative way to hold it, and you *cannot* wear a wrist brace while playing it. You just can't reach the needed keys with that kind of restriction.
But music is still being composed, and there's still need for bassists, cellists, and all the low winds. If we complain about a eight-hour practice, all we get is "You're young. You'll survive." So much for the helpful employer. We just try to pace ourselves to avoid it.
Is working at a computer for eight hours worth the injuries? No.
Is the music worth the trouble? Yes.
"To make apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe." -Carl Sagan
Funny how you misspelled 'elbow' twice :p
An observation I've made time and again is that the English language seems rather difficult to write even for British/American people, leading to lots of funny/stupid/annoying little typos that foreigners writing English tend not to make.
I'm trying to get started with my French, which seems even more of a hassle, whereas my mother tongue, Finnish, is very easy WRT spelling (spelling and pronounciation differ rarely, if ever).
[I bought mine through Office Organix or direct, see http://www.officeorganix.com/kenisis1.htm for the former]
:-)
The Kinesis keyboards feel almost perfect, much nicer than the halfway-measures of the MS Natural line in terms of key action in particular (a subjective issue, of course), and have the advantage of being beautifully shaped on the underside for lap use as well.
Furthermore, they suit gaming quite well, with the extra row of keys under 'zxcvb' and "nm,./" and plethora of thumb keys making it far easier to keep one's hand in place during intense gaming while the other hand manipulates the mouse.
The MS Natural (or MS melted) fails to even out the keys between hands, leaving the weird excess punctuation to the right hand in the manner of conventional keyboards, so gaming on them is a bit rougher for people who use the mouse right-handed.
The Kinesis also has the advantages of discarding the useless far-left to front-right keyslant, a legacy of mechanical typewriters, and has a marvelous concavity to each hand's keyset, better following arc through which fingers tend to move.
The thumb keypads are particularly nice, although it takes a new user a little while (a few hours, typically) to get used to having space, backspace, return, delete, control, alt, page up/down etc., all perfect for thumb access. The shift and caps lock are in the normal places, however, so don't panic
Basically, it's a great keyboard, does wonders for reducing RSI, great for any game that lets you remap the keys, and I and my roommate both have them. It also has a provision for attaching a pedal that can be mapped to almost anything but most typically either shift or the numeric-keypad lock (for the embedded keypad in the right-hand keys) The only critical statement I have to make is that escape and the function keys are smaller chiclet keys rather than full keys (see the Maltron for a near equivalent with full function keys), but since Unix doesn't use F1 and so forth much, it's hardly ever been significant.
Growing up my mom tried to get me to use typing tutor programs and they annoyed the heck out of me, I eventually progressed from hunt-and-peck into a very fast touch typist.
I can type faster than most "proper" typers I know, and I have had absolutely NO problems with my wrists, and I sit at the computer for at least 5 hours a day on average.
Please avoid blanket statements such as yours. Yes, seeing a specialist is a good idea, but not the only solution.
The SmartBoard has several benefits. First, like other ergo keyboards, it is split. I would love it if it were actually in two pieces so I could adjust the amount of split, but what it has works for me. Second, and more importantly in my mind, the keys are aligned vertically (like the Kenesis I believe) so your fingers don't need to stretch horizontally. This keeps your wrists from torquing so much and really feels much better to me.
It took a little getting used to, but after a weekend of using the SmartBoard I was back up to my regular 90 wpm (yes, a weekend). After a week, my speed was actually improving beyond what I could achieve before since it was easier to strike all the keys.
Within a couple weeks the pain had disappeared and has not returned. I still recommend exercise, taking breaks, better posture, keyboard and mouse trays, etc. The other nice thing about the SmartBoard is that it's $90 and has held up well to continued pounding. I'd also say it makes playing FPS games easier. :)
The downsides? The key click is quite a bit louder than other soft keyboards. This doesn't bother me, but if you're in a wide-open work environment, you may get complaints. Second, as I said I wish I could adjust the split. Other than that it has been a real joy.
In short, if you're avoiding seeing a specialist due to cost, don't compound your injury by doing nothing because you believe that "ergonomic keyboards are worthless." Instead, drop $90 and try one out. Hell, try a few out. Your continued ability to type is not worth senseless doubt.
Freedom to fear. Freedom from thought. Freedom to kill.
I guess the War on Terror really is about freedom!
Amazing guitarist. Think it was CTS that he had, though it may have been tendonitis. He is kind of rare among guitarists who get RSI in that he got it in his right hand (he says it was from fingerpicks) rather than on the left hand, which is usually the one doing all the funky contortions. (reverse left and right if you'd prefer I talk in a southpaw-centric mode).
I don't think it's that you can't get RSI from playing musical instruments such as guitar; I think it's just that there are very very very few people who spend eight hours a day playing a guitar the way people spend eight hours a day clicking away at a keyboard.
I played piano & synths for years before getting into computers. The keyboard has never bothered me, but the goshdarned mouse has got to go. Use it for more than 10% of the time I'm on and my right shoulder begins to hurt and stiffen.
I'm not really a web designer, I just play one on the Internet.
I switched from a standard QWERTY to an old-style MS-keyboard (which has now outlived three or four large project lifecycles and is underhand at this instant) and the difference was immense. It probably has a lot to do with body geometry. I have short arms and the QWERTY put a sharp kink in my wrists. I'd go numb playing FPS or doing long coding stretches. By elevating the back of the keyboard, dropping the front, and getting rid of the damn crick in the wrist due to the split and angled keypad, all of a sudden I stopped hurting. So, they are clearly NOT worthless to some of us in some situations.
./er too.... she hunted me up by my sig from the other side of hte country when I posted something... ;) ...and this is an entirely unsolicited testimonial, but I think they're great folks and do good things to help people who are really suffering and those who want to avoid suffering.
OTOH, I have a friend and her husband who both had pretty crippling RSI and as a consequence could not work for a while. This caused great stress. And then, like the survivor she is, she turned it into a business!
She became an expert (and I think a VAR or something) for Dragon and now helps people with extreme RSI, other handicaps, etc. setup voice command software systems. And the new generation are pretty damn impressive. Everyone from authors who just want to dictate to their systems, to medical and legal secretaries, to government offices looking to avoid future suits related to this kind of injury should take a visit to their website here and think about it.
I used some of the first gen speech reco/voice command stuff and you used to have to train it galore, always had a crappy mike, and it still performed badly. The new stuff without much training is pretty good, with a good mike and a little bit more training verges on awesome. I watched her sitting across the room from her laptop whacking out a story using MS-Word via voice command... pretty kewl beans!
Visit this link to find out a bit more about RSI and some ways to treat it, prevent it, etc.
And I know my lady pal is a
-- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
Dunno - I've had troubles for the last 15 years - doctors can cure the symptoms and get me back to work after about 10 days of rest...but they can't get rid of the problem permenantly.
Egonomic adjustments? Well, they are certainly important too - but I've had experts come into my work area and measure everything - the conclusion is that I've had it correctly set up for *years* and I'm still having periodic trouble - so it isn't that.
I take frequent breaks - so it isn't that.
The *ONLY* thing which has dramatically lessened the problems was switching to a 'split' style keyboard. Not one of the radically silly ones - just a standard Microsoft or Micro Innovations split board. It hasn't gotten rid of the problem 100% - but I only suffer enough to lose time from work maybe once every couple of years.
So, for one victim at least, going to an ergonomic keyboard has been the only thing that's actually provided some long term help (although it's still not a 100% fix).
However, it's very clear that not everyone shares the exact same symptoms or the exact same causes - and the exact same cure won't work for everyone either.
My advice to victims (and I'm not a doctor) is to do ALL of the following:
1) As soon as you get any symptoms at all. STOP TYPING! You can't "work through the pain" - it'll only get worse and harder to treat.
2) Get a qualified ergonomics expert to look at your work area. Take all of the advice you can - but don't be afraid to ask for explanations for why they are making those recommendations.
3) Get a split keyboard of some kind.
4) If you do get real pain, go to a doctor. Take time off work - veg out in front of a TV for a week.
But above all: YMMV.
www.sjbaker.org
Ergonomic keyboards suck the mighty bozakiuh for playing UT that's for sure.
Between guitar and the mouse my arms ache anyway.
This
The only time I have problems is when I'm using a chair that has arm-rests (i always take them off...) and a mouse that's at the wrong height. My keyboard also has to almost be in my lap, and I can't have to have my head turned.
Seriously, I think a lot of problems would be solved if people gave up armrests.
--
Vote for your hopes, not for your fears - Vote Third Party
Most of the comments so far have hit some good points, but I don't think anyone has got it all yet. Successfully combatting RSI (Repetitive Stress Injuries) involves a combination of good work habits, good desk setup, good hardware, and good luck.
The advice I have is based on three years of experience dealing with severe tendonitis, and treatment from two separate orthopedic surgeons and two occupational therapists:
1) Nature - Some people are predisposed to RSI. Some people aren't. Unsurprisingly, what triggers problems for some people won't affect others at all.
2) Desk setup - If you have problems, it is crucial to evaluate your workplace. Occupational therapists are trained professionals who can help you with this. The short story is, you shouldn't have to reach for your keyboard or your mouse or contort your wrists when using them; your feet should rest comfortably on the floor; you should be able to look straight at the monitor. I find that placing my keyboard on my lap is most effective. Others may find keyboard trays will help.
3) Work habits - Take frequent breaks. Take frequent breaks. Take frequent breaks. If you have RSI, be religious about this. It is hard, but this can be the single-most important component in treating RSI. I take, at minimum, a one-minute break after ten minutes of work. This has helped me more than anything else. If I slip, and let myself binge code or surf for a couple hours straight, I will feel it. There are programs to remind you to stop, or you can just use your stopwatch.
4) Good hardware - Ergonomic devices can help. They are no guarantee, and some "ergonomic devices" simply aren't. You should be able to have relaxed wrists and arms when using your keyboard and mouse. You shouldn't have to bend your wrists, either in, down, or up. Traditional keyboards usually require you to bend your wrists in. Many "ergonomic" keyboards require you to bend your wrists up (Microsoft Natural, etc). I use the Kinsesis Classic with an optical Logitech MouseMan Wheel. They have a steep learning curve, but do help (me at least).
5) Medical intervention - See a qualified doctor. Orthopedic surgeons deal with RSI cases. For some people, oral anti-inflammatory ranging from ibuprofin to Vioxx can help. If you have problems in one or two specific locations, anti-inflammatory injections (cortizone) may help. Wrist splint can also help. My doctor gave me very good quality splints that I wear when I sleep. This prevents my wrists from curling up into the fetal position. I was amazed at the difference that made.
6) Time off - Think about how many hours a day, how many days a week you are at your computer (or are involved in other strenuous or repetitive tasks). Sometimes, a month or more away from the desk can do wonders. Other techniques that slow down your pace and make you think about your "lifestyle" at the desk can help. For me, the learning curve involved in switching to a Kinesis keyboard (and in switching to a Dvorak layout) forced me to slow down and helped me to remember to take my regular breaks.
7) Alternate input - If you have an office to yourself, voice recognition software can sometimes supplement your typing. Head-driven pointing devices are also available. They can free up your hands from using a mouse. I have found that my mouse contributes to my RSI as much or more than my keyboard.
8) Stetches - Simple stretches during breaks. Again, do them regularly. Simple things like stretching your arms in front of you, arms across your chest, rolling your head, standing up and stretching your back. 7) Whatever works - The prime concern is that you are comfortable. Don't panic. Don't over-react. Don't ignore the situation. A balanced assault on the problem is essential. Know that not all approaches will work for you.
Remember: There is no silver bullet. Defeating RSI requires you to try different approaches and see what works for you. The final solution will likely involve a combination of change is your work environment (desk height, keyboard style) and in your work habits (taking breaks, not allowing yourself to binge surf, etc).
I hope this helps.
About me:
I have suffered from severe tendonitis in both wrists and both lower arms since spring 1999. The incident was triggered by several long coding sprees at a desk that was way too high.
I initially saw a general practice doctor. He gave me wrist splints and heavy doses of ibuprofin. This helped some, but did not fix the situation. Since then I have gone through several prescription anti-inflammatory drugs with varying degrees of success. I have seen two different orthopedic surgeons and two occupational therapists.
I currently use a Kinesis Classic MPC/QD keyboard that sits on my lap. I use a Logitech optical MouseMan wheel. I am lucky enough to have a setee that I sit on which allows me to have my mouse immediately (about 3 inches) away from my right hand (the mouse is perched atop Schidt's C++ book and O'Reilly's Unix Power Tools to get the right height).
I keep my watch beside me at all times and make a valiant effort to work for 10 minutes, then rest for at least 1 minute. I have a set of stretches from my occupational therapist to do during my breaks.
After I started having problems with my keyboard, I realized that I have problems for longer than I realized. I often got "gamers thumb" as a kid playing Nintendo, and before that, "joystick thumb" from playing Lode Runner too much on the Apple IIe.
If anyone wants to contact me about RSI, my email address is los20 @ cam.ac.uk.
Lane Schwartz
Churchill College University of Cambridge
I am concerned about any program, any piece of hardware, any treaty, any law that treats me as a consumer, not a citizen
I had a regular keyboard and mouse and quickly developed excruciating pain in my forarms and wrist with the hours that I kept (pretty much all waking hours on the computer).
then I switched to an ergonomic type and a trackball and I never had problems again, not changing my routine at all.
now I have trouble typing on my laptop since the keys are so close together.
There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
I'm working with hundreds of students around me and it is 'remarkable' that all the students with RSI work(ed) a lot of hours with a computer.
They all were facing deadlines like graduating or other important events like 'must finish this or else...'
I'd say stress is a very important factor.
but good height of a table can take away some problems.
Privacy is terrorism.
hmm, seems to me that RSI problems are widely prevalent in geeks... but maybe it's not the keyboard that is the root of the problem.
maybe it has to do with other repetitive actions one does with their wrist...
I of course have no carpel tunnel problems at all.. really
Piano players naturally hold their wrists above the keys. The playing sounds better that way.
This, by coincidence, also prevents CTS.
Typing letters on a keyboard needs no such rythm maintenance. As a result, prorgrammer types don't develop this healthy habit on their own.
But, to keep perspective, I used to use a keypunch machine, and the less than ergo chairs used to kill my back when I was a young man resulting in numerous trips to my doctor for manipulation and drugs. Ah....the good old days....
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
I used to use one of those famous (or infamous) IBM keyboars (I think the warranty voided in 1987) until a few months ago, when finally it broke down. Several keys stopped working, so I was forced to get a new one. I got a logitech inavigator .. and ever since I've been troubled with RSI. So I think it's fairly safe to say that the good old IBM is still the best bloody keyboard there is.
- bram
I don't usually have any noticable pain when I'm typing or at my computer. But I do get a low ache on right wrist whenever I happen to be away from a computer for more than a couple of days.
Yes, it's strange and I was wondering if anyone else happens to get that?
It's like my hands want and need the "exercise" and if I'm chillin' on some Mexican beach, with no one around but my beer and then unlocking it when I returned.
The idea is to stay loose and nimble, and keeping keys close to your finger tips, enough to minimize the extending of your falanges, is probably far better than keeping your fingers straight... such as some keyboardists do with far greater care than long finger nails deserve.
At the job previous to this I had suffered pain down the back of my hand from stiff cherry keyboards. The best comprimise we found there was an apple imac keyboard - it has a soft positive action and because it doesn't have a insert, del, home, end. pgup, pgdn block it minimised the distance to mouse / trackball.
Another nice keyboard I had the trackball in the keyboard, where the arrow keys should be (which took a bit of getting used to - the arrow key were shifted up, and the others moved elsewhere). Unfortunately the build quality wasn't so good and some of the keys stopped working after 12-14 months (I had thought the trackball would be the first to die).
I'm an undergrad/grad student and research assistant. This means that if I'm not browsing the web, or writing a program for a class, then I'm writing a program for my research or writing another paper to be published. About a year and a half ago, I started getting pains in my wrists. Now mind you, I've been hacking for almost 10 years now, so I had the mind that "RSI is for pussies." Well, my advisor had a kinesis keyboard laying around. I don't intend this to be an advertisement for the company (just do a google search), BUT, ever since I got used to the keyboard, the pains have gone away. And I type much faster. I even bought one for home. I wouldn't trade it for anything. I cringe when I have to use a regular keyboard now, (1) because after about an hour or so, I my wrists hurt and (2) the position is just completely unnatural and you don't really realize it until you've been typing at a kinesis for a while. I've tried other "Natural" keyboards before and they don't hold a candle to kinesis. The down side is the low end model costs about $225. But I consider it to be worth the cost. I know it sounds like I'm plugging kinesis, so I'll also say that the way you type also matters, the level of your hands relative to the keyboard. I find that not resting my wrists on the desk helps, I use the arm rests on my chair to prop my elbows up and then I type with my hands above the keyboard with my wrists generally straight. Another good strategy is to take frequent breaks. Five minutes away from the keyboard every hour or so is not a bad thing and it will help you rest those weary hands.
Humorless sig goes here.
It may be a little bit offtopic, but I would like to hear more about different keyboard mappings....
I've heard numerous people at my university who are certain 'dvorak' has changed their life ! Do any of you people have any experience in this field ?
After I started to get pain in my wrists I went to a doctor, got some pain relief gel, Ibugel forte 10%, and changed to a MS natural keyboard.
;-)
I've now stopped using the gel and don't find my wists aching.
I must admit that my typing took a while to recover, but in general I'm very happy to have made the change, though my friends now find it awkard to use my computer
Just my experience, and hopefully let people know that if your wrists hurt, there is stuff you can do about it. For more information I contacted the Health & Safety Commision and got thier leaflets to try asnd find out what can be done about condition.
oj tjey aer vrey efefcvtiev!
well ive only ever got RSI from playing diablo for 13 hours strait and thats it -ever-
I was having problems in my elbows and the backs of my hands. I tried a Kinesis keyboard, which I really liked for typing letters and such, but it was a pain in the butt when typing C, C++ Java or any other code that makes extensive use of the { and } keys.
At the recommendation of a friend, I switched over to the dvorak keyboard layout. The result was my elbows and hands quit hurting (some Kinesis keyboards come with markings for both qwerty and dvorak layouts).
Many people tout the dvorak layout saying that it will make you type faster. This wasn't the case for me (probably because I think at the same speed), but it sure takes a lot less effort to type in the dvorak layout than it does in the qwerty layout. My hands don't have to move nearly as much.
It took me a good two or three weeks of frustration before I felt proficient in the dvorak layout, but it was worth it to me. No more pain. I would recommend, if you want to try it, to switch and never go back. This will shorten the time it takes to learn dvorak.
Having had more than my share of problems... Here is the (somewhat) simple solution given to me by a former girlfriend (An MD).
Wrist problems come when you are TYPING WITH YOUR WRISTS AT AN ANGLE. (UP, Down, Left, Right). When you are typing on a standard keyboard and resting your wrists on the table, your hands are angled upwards and outwards. This places strain on the muscles, ligaments, tendons (etc) as they try to operate in such a funky position.
Most ergonomic keyboards seek to remedy this problem by splitting the keyboard in the middle to nearly eliminate the Left-Or-Right angling of the wrists. (Look at a Microsoft Ergo Keyboard for an example)
However, this does NOT fix the UP/DOWN angling problem at all. You must elivate/lower your wrists so that the backs of your hands are flat with your forearms. (As an example, tie a ruler to the back of your forearm and it should also be flat against the back of your hand).
Everyone has a different typing style (mainly because of the location of your elbows), but the goal is the same. MINIMIZE THE ANGLES ON YOUR WRISTS WHILE USING THEM.
comes from switching that God-awful qwerty layout for a simplified layout - specifically the DVORAK simplified layout.
Doing both eliminated all symptoms of RSI in about about 3 months (the length of time it took for me to become more proficient on DVORAK than I ever was using qwerty).
Today, I can touch type dvorak on either (flat or curved) layout but I can touch type qwerty only on a straight keyboard.
I find that my wrists become extremely sore after about four hours using qwerty and I can code/enter-data for twelve hours or more w/o any pain
Lord_Hern
Posting anomymously to avoid karma whoring
Thing about RSI is well.. the repetition. For me the best results come from variation in workstation layout, keyboard layout and working posture. Don't blame the technology, use your imagination to build in a bit of variety
If it's impossible - I'm interested
If you do not have RSI - if you use computers long enough without listening to what I and others here say, you *will* get it. I mean, it's like trying to life 500 pounds and get a hernia, or smoking 2 packs a day until you get lung cancer. Just because it takes a few years to get you doesn't mean it eventually will. If you're young, be smart and pay attention so your hands don't get crippled. You don't have to go overboard, there's some simple things you can do to help you out. And if you feel pain - DON'T IGNORE IT, do something about it.
Some people have posted good things here. The web page that helped me out was the RSI web page by Netscape developer guru Jamie Zawinski.
As people have said, it's all about repetition. If you do the same thing over and over and over again (e.g. click a mouse, type), eventually your hands will slowly start getting screwed up and you will start feeling pain whenever you mouse click, or type, or whatever. Ask programmers you know who are over the age of 25, I guarantee 50% of them either have RSI or say they type in a manner that avoids RSI.
Here are some things I do to help:
I use a different mouse at home and work. At work it is the basic Microsoft mouse. At home it is a trackball-type mouse with a big ball. I also switch hands with both mice, I go half an hour with the left hand, then half an hour with the right hand. This way, both hands get half an hour of use and half an hour of rest. This helps me more than anything.
Also, continually typing for hours on end is no good. Zawinski takes a 5 minute break every 40 minutes, or when feeling pain, every 20 minutes. Go to the bathroom, get some water, get a Snapple. Or stop typing and read some manual or papers or something. Do some hand-stretching exercises.
Also, having a good ergonomic keyboard, mouse and chair, and sitting and typing at them properly help. And if you feel real pain, go more overboard on this stuff and see a doctor. And sue the hell out of everyone in sight!
Speaking to that last topic, Bush and his cabinet guys say RSI is bullshit and people like me and thousands of others who feel pain in our hands are imagining this. Hmm, that wouldn't be because the ITAA (funded by Microsoft, IBM, Intel and so forth) is handing him millions of dollars, would it be? Also, this is is a professional concern, not a partisan political one - both Democrats and Republicans have been taking ITAA money. Although with professional issues, we're more likely to get initial help on RSI from Democrats, and we're more likely to get initial help on H1-Bs from Republicans (like Rep. Tancredo). Organizations like the Programmers Guild fight for programmers and administrators on issues such as this. So think about checking up on them, and maybe even signing up, or at least getting involved.
Lots of people in my office use laptops for everyday work (they do a lot of support work away from the desk).
These things seem to forget all the ergo work that was done in the 70s and later : they have thick keyboards, poorly positioned screens, and fiddly mouse-substitutes (nipples) that encourage small, tight hand movements. They seem like a disaster : is there any fallout yet from their increasing use ?
When I received my new chair I no more back/neck aches but my wrists were totally wasted. I eventually figured out that the armrests on the chair were causing me to rest forward body weight on my wrists. This was due to the armrests not allowing the chair into the proper position relative to the desk. I think. 2 minute hack job later and the chair has no arms. Immediate posture and pain improvement.
Several years later (still the same lame desks ... I should call osha or my lawyer or something ...) my wrists are fine. So the moral of the story is : figure out what is causing YOUR problems. Don't just trust some shit hot human factors specialist if what they are suggesting doesn't feel correct.
Of course I did start climbing exercises during that time period as well. Added some heavy duty grip strength which I believe helped a lot. Those 1 lb. grip balls REI sells are good. Also look at Metolius rock rings
"There's no secret. You just press the accelerator to the floor and keep turning left." -- Bill Vukovich
I find I can be typing for hours on the only problem I notice is hamstrings getting shorter. This is with a standard keyboard, no wrist rests, and many years of long days and nights coding.
There is an exception. I find when playing an intense game, my death-grip on the mouse leaves my right hand as stiff as a board and hurting bad. After about an hour break, it's good as new.
Ozwald
Hi, I've been using an Interfaces Keyboard (by Cramer, which I think is sold under a couple of other names) which is totally split down the center (the '6' is repeated on both sides, but the keyboard splits at tgb and yhn.), and I have had significantly reduced RSI problems (I used to have to wear wrist splints and had shooting pains). I keep the two halfs of the keyboard about a keyboard width apart (I know because I have a keyboard in the middle of the two halves that I don't use that often, which goes to a test machine). This allows me to sit up straight, keep my elbows on my armrests, my palms on the palm rest, and keeps my wrists in a totally neutral position. It took me exactly 1 day to get used to it, and return to my fairly high typing speed. Secondly, there is an embedded touch-pad (I'd almost like a track point) that I use constantly just slightly offset from the keyboard, so I don't have to move my hands over to a mouse. It's effectively far quicker. I decided that the chair-arm-mounts that can be purchased with this keyboard were a good idea, but insufficiently adjustable for my rather long arms, so I'd have to sit with my elbows behind my trunk, which doesn't seem like a hot idea. The only goofy thing I've found about the keyboard is that it doesn't work well with any of the Keyboard/Monitor switchs I've used. Other than that, I've found the keyboard a tremendous benefit. -J
An ergonomic keyboard alone won't help; you have to put your whole body into it. Pay attention to your neck and how far your mouse is, how straight your back is, etc. It may seem obvious, but it doesn't come into habit without effort. It's very helpful if you have a chair, desk, and monitor well suited to this. It's actually better if the monitor is low and pointing up at your face, and you keep your head pointing forward but your eyes looking down. It's less stress on your eyes.
Now how many companies make setups like this? You have to pay a pretty penny to get a perfect setup for yourself. It's much cheaper to make unhealthy stuff :) Especially when there's research involved into making healthy products.
Another good example is Dvorak vs. Qwerty. Dvorak is awesome. If you have pain in your arms, try learning Dvorak. It's pretty easy to learn and very efficient; you don't have to move your fingers very much to type. Most of the vowels are under your left finger tips, and must of the stuff you combine them with is under your right. You rarely have to hit keys below the home keys. But no one's going to teach it to you, and no one's going to sell your favorite keyboard in the Dvorak layout.
IMO, Apple's Adjustable Keyboard (the funky one that split) was the best. The best feature was the fact that the numeric keypad wasn't on the main keyboard (it was a separate ADB device) so you didn't have to reach so far to use your mouse. (heh, since I've started using USB macs, I have this nasty habit of smashing my mouse into the corner of my keyboard. I don't have a mousepad to keep me in check.). Mircosoft's ergo keyboard is bloody huge. I wish more people would sell small keyboards. I only need the numeric keypad for games. BTW, I actually had to give that keyboard to my brother who was developing a pretty bad RSI. He's better now that he uses that keyboard instead of a normal one.
It's actually healthier to use your left hand to control the mouse, so you don't have to stretch over the keypad (you lucky left-handed people you). It takes a bit of getting used to, of course.
Try this. Go to a mirror, and check the height of your shoulders. Chances are your right shoulder (for people who use the mouse on the right side) is much lower than your left shoulder. If you raise it to match you'll feel a bit of pain. The problem's probably worse if you drive a standard transmission car :P Good habits can prevent problems like that. You can apparently fix this by keeping your shoulders up (helpful to give your elbows support from a chair that has adjustable armrests).
Moderators should have to take a reading comprehension test.
www.workcover.vic.gov.au. Is is indeed all about positioning.
I can't stand typing on a ergo keyboard, they're too soft and squishy, not to mention that dammned break is different on every model. Give me a good old clicky-click IBM Model M any day.
They're also fun to mess with the minds of hunt-and-peck typists when you switch a few keycaps.
DAMN YOU IBM!! why did you have to stop making Model M's and give in to making cheap rubber-dome keyboards.
A couple years ago i was having some pain in my wrists and the tops of my hands. I bought a cheap ergonomic keyboard and the pain went away.
At the time i bought this keyboard, there were several brands available from Comp-USA and Best Buy. All the brands looked identical; my guess is they were all produced by the same third-party manufacturer and relabeled as necessary. The one i have has no indication of a brand on it. I want another one for work but haven't been able to find one just like the one i have. Any idea what brands it might be? In hindsight i wish i would have saved the box...
----- "I'm still sane on three planets and two moons."
Of the folks I know with severe RSI, the majority are emacs users rather than vi users. It's not scientific, but that's my data.
I started having problems years ago, when I was doing more writing than programming, and switched to dvorak. Within a couple months, the problems had cleared up, and haven't returned for 8 years.
But just as important is how dvorak changes my experience of typing. Typing before was extremely frustrating (especially on bad ADD days), and my accuracy was abysmal. With dvorak, my accuracy tripled and typing became much more natural and comfortable. Typing became more transparent, and interfered less with my thinking process.
Occasionally people (once an employer, big mistake) give me a hard time about using a "non-standard" keyboard. It's kind of fun to leave a box set to dvorak and watch people get confused.
I've never bothered to get a dvorak labelled keyboard...I suppose I should some day. I just use software key mapping, which is very easy on Mac and fairly easy on Windows. I think a lot of old NeXT-heads are dvorak users, which makes sense.
You're overlooking a large group of people -- those who have jobs and hobbies. There are three things I do with my life, all of which have the potential for wrist injury and/or RSI (there used to be four, but then I got a girlfriend). At work, I spend a great deal of time in front of a computer. As a hobby I play bass, and for exercise I cycle (if you think cycling can't hurt your wrists, you've never spent 2 hours on a road bike). If I weren't awfully careful about my wrists, this combination of activities would put me in the hospital in no time flat. My solutions are:
Minimize the amount of weight I put on my wrists (I would say never put weight on them, but that's hard to do when you're cycling; you need some weight on the front wheel to control the bike).
Minimize the bending of my wrists. Often this requires building up other muscles to compensate (as does the previous point), but given time it's doable.
Take breaks! I can't stress this enough. When typing, I walk away and look out the window for a minute (this is good for my eyes, too). When playing, I relax between songs and stretch. When biking, I change my hand position once in a while (that's why bikes have handlebars and not just one grip spot, like they use in time trials).
Make sure I get good circulation in my fingers. If I ever feel any part of my body getting numb, I change my position or stop until I get my circulation back! Then I wait another minute before starting again.
On stereophonic equipment, the monaural sound obtained through multiple channels will enhance your listening pleasure.
First a little history lesson: The keyboard is layed out to be intentionally difficult to type on. It is an artifact of early typewriters, when more efficient (e.g. Dvorak) layouts were allowing people to type faster than the mechanical mechanisms could respond, and key jams were occuring. The solution was to lay the keyboard out differently to slow the typist down!
I use a standard keyboard with the tradition IBM style layout, and I will never experience RSI. Why? Because I simply use what I call the "modifed two finger hunt and peck" typing method. Modified because I will occasionally use other fingers, especially the thumb for the keyboard. I type as fast as my mother who was a secretary for thirty years, and I never, ever, ever have to worry about RSI.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
more important than the spatial arrangement of the keys (which is in itself an important factor AFTER this) is SPRING keyboard action vs RUBBER MEMBRANE keyboard action -- nothing else matters as much as that if you want to avoid RSI.
Dvorak on a good Spring Keyboard is the only way to go.
regards,
john
Picked up typing in high school, circa 1958. Ran teletype machines and typed on Selectrics, mechanicals, and odds and ends electrical typewriters in the service, broadcasting, and amateur radio. Been pounding code into the box since '79 on silent, clickable, and portable keyboards. I slouch, I've been tired, a little drunk, a little sober. In all this time never a twinge in the ole carpal tunnels. Some get it and some don't. Split keyboards suck and don't seem to help a bit.
What sucks is when an employer 1)won't do an ergonomic evaluation and/or says it's too expensive, ineffective based on their studies, or some other excuse and 2)won't let you bring in your own keyboard/mouse and make yourself comfortable.
Fortunately that hasn't happened to me, but I know some people that are in very uncomfortable situations.
OSHA doesn't care. Bush struck down the law that made employers actually *do* stuff. It's a pain sometimes..no pun intended
I should point out that I hate the split keyboards, for one simple reason. While being trained as a touch-typist (100+ wpm), I discovered that the "6" key is actually closer to the left index finger than to the right index finger. So I ignored my lessons and learned to use the left finger to hit it, and as a result I could type numbers faster. However, all of those split keyboards put 6 on the right, so whenever I try to type on one of those I end up smacking plastic rather than hitting the 6 key I was going for. I may be the only person bothered by this, but it drives me nuts!
On stereophonic equipment, the monaural sound obtained through multiple channels will enhance your listening pleasure.
I dislike the layout of them. They may or may not be better for your posture etc, but they do in fact force you into a set way of typing. This is not always a good thing. The human body is complex and varies between person to person. response from the body will naturally guide you on which way to do a repetitive action. The thing that does swings it for me is postive response keyboards. After working for a few years at an ISP working in the command line constantly and programming a bit I started feeling a little pain across the back of my hands which grew steadily worse. I left that job to move country and after a couple of months not using a computer it faded away. When I took a new job the old pain started to come back after only a few months. I swapped from the generic soflty sprung keyboard to one of the old style "clicky" keyboards like IBM's or Cherry on the advise of a programmer friend of mine, since then (read: quite a few years) I've had no problems and I'm typing probably 12 hours a day. Now if only I could somehow get hold of an old Sun 3/60 keyboard and attach it to my PC...
The keyboard that came with a Sun SparcStation (not sure what version, sorry). It's got just the right level of squishiness, without feeling like you're typing into a pillow.
The Microsoft Internet Keyboard Pro. Regardless of what you think of the company, this is a nice keyboard. It's just a tiny bit too squishy, but otherwise it's almost perfect. This is what I'm using now, in place of a $2.99 used keyboard that typed ` strokes randomly.
The keyboard that came with an Amiga 1000. Absolutely beautiful design. This one would top the list, but I can't use it on any of my current computers.
On stereophonic equipment, the monaural sound obtained through multiple channels will enhance your listening pleasure.
http://web.wt.net/~psherr/squirrel_hazing.htm
INTERESTING
This is one of those recurring topics, like "Should I go to college or get experience?" Well, here are my suggestions; some may be new.
SWITCH MICE HANDS. Spread the wear and tear. I use the mouse right-handed at work, and left-handed at home.
NO COLD HANDS. Wash your hands with warm water, use fingerless gloves, etc. if you're forced to work in a cold office.
GEL KEYBOARD WRIST REST. Not only do they just plain feel good, they will also keep your wrists straight and prevent you from resting your wrists on a hard surface.
TAKE BREAKS. And I don't just mean the occasional water cooler break. Take whole days off with no computer usage. Note that, depending on the damage, it may take several whole days.
KEYBOARD SHORTCUTS. Use them whenever you can. Even Windows has a surprising amount of shortcuts; you just have to search the web a bit. Example: ALT+SPACE+X to maximize a window.
STRESS REDUCTION. Working at the computer when you're stressed will do lots more damage because your upper body is tense. So exercise, meditate, escape into novels or movies, or whatever helps you kill tension.
I strongly believe working habits can make a *huge* difference, and be most of the problem or solution.
:-)
A few times in the past couple of years, I've worked with the keyboard in an odd orientation (off to one side, because I had other work front and center, or raised or lowered for other reasons), and it very quickly caused pain.
It's pretty simple to prove to yourself; just set your keyboard off to a 30 degree angle to your side, and work for an hour of intensive typing. You'll feel it
Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
there are 4 factors that contribute to rsi injuries:
force
duration
speed
awkward position
the keyboard can only address the awkward position factor. thus a good ergo keyboard is just one of the things that one should use to avoid injury. stretching and regular breaks are probably more important than an ergo keyboard.
Two things really helped me. The main one was changing the hand I use the mouse with. I'm right-handed, and like most other right-handed people I used the mouse with that hand. This meant that my right hand was in control of the RHS of the keyboard, the cursor keys, the numeric keypad and the mouse, and had to jump between all four, whereas my left hand stayed put over the LHS of the keyboard. Not surprisingly, it was my right hand that got strained. So I moved the mouse and started using it left-handed. And I found it surprisingly easy. After a few days it felt almost as natural as using it right-handed, and it made my hand usage much more balanced. Try it! It's probably not as difficult as you think.
The other thing was adjusting my typing position slightly. I touch-type (just about), and the standard method places your hands almost perpendicular to the keyboard, which tends to put my elbows uncomfortably close to my sides. It feels much more comfortable to move my elbows out a bit and angle my hands; I found that by changing the keys assigned to my left-hand fingers, this became very natural. (E.g. putting my middle finger in charge of R, D, and X rather than E, D and C.) I also found it more comfortable to keep the keyboard flat rather than angling it up.
I doubt these tips will help a full-blown medical problem, but they work very well for me. The most important thing is to think; don't take for granted the way you work, but try to work out what's uncomfortable and experiment with what you can do to change it.
Ceterum censeo subscriptionem esse delendam.
I swear by mine... years of pain and weakness/tingling, as well as wrist tendons audibly squeaking (!), went good-bye after I got my first Microsoft ergonomic keyboard.
Is it perfect? No, but it's as comfortable as anything I've ever used, especially over long periods.
A lot of people get turned off of using them because of the change in button configuration, but I found getting used to it only took 2-3 days, and it's since nearly doubled my typing speed and accuracy.
"To pass through the jungle; silence, courtesy, ferocity, as the occasion demands." -- Kamau, "Proper Passage"
I started typing when I was in 7th grade, about 30 years ago, hunt and peck. About 3 years later, I learned touch typing. I have never had good posture. It type with my wrists pressed to the tabletop, resting, and I like chairs with arms. I've been told this is bad. But I sit however I like. When I entered college, I could type about 70wpm, and I can now type about 95wpm after about 20 years. For those same 20 years, I've probably typed an average of 8-10 hours a day every day, perhaps to include weekends, without any ill effects.
I reject any notion that posture or keyboard causes Carpal Tunnel problems, since it didn't in my case. Maybe I'm tempting fate by obseving this, but I doubt it.
Here's what I'd like to know: How many nerds were sports jocks growing up? I'm not talking about the kind that scored medals. I bowled for many years, but was a terrible bowler. Nevertheless, it was wrist exercise. I played tetherball, volleyball, and I swam a lot. In those same years as I was learning to type, I swam 3 miles a day 3 days a week for swim team. And at the same time, in gym, the horizontal bar (pull-ups, etc.) was my favorite device. When swimming, my coaches would complain that I rarely used my legs, where they said all energy was supposed to come from, but I preferred my arms, which felt stronger than my legs.
Now here's my guess: during the time that mattered, while I was young and still forming, I exercised whatever wrist muscle pathways in a way that formed large openings that have not been stressed from later typing. I think this is the reason I count myself immune to Carpal Tunnel problems today,when other friends have had them after much shorter times stressing.
I'd be interested to see stats correlating wrist exercises with carpal tunnel. My theory? Being a jock at certain sports early on is what makes you a good computer person later. But, of course, we find our jocks don't get trained mentally and our computer people don't get trained physically. And so we get the worst of both worlds. I'd love to see some stats on this. Or, failing that, some examples of either people who had very strong wrists from sports having Carpal Tunnel later, or else people who did not suffer from Carpal Tunnel and yet had no sports background.
Kent M Pitman
Philosopher, Technologist, Writer
its an old YakumoKB-7906 with a bend keyboard, but the key layout is absolutly the same than on "/default"-keys everyone used ten years ago (I think you know, those with the "#"-key at the right place). The most modern keyboards s*ck, anyway.
I like the bend shape because its kinda fun to watch other people searching for the right keys on it - and it makes typing much more easy - for me, at least. If I'm not working at home, I use a Notebook and its integrated keyboard (a hp/Omnibook), and that's OK so far...
regards & stay typed,
Large
I've always wondered if my unique method of typing is the reason why I don't suffer much from RSI despite being on a computer 10-12 hours a day. After reading some of the responses, though, I'm pretty sure it is...because the way I type, I keep my wrists and hands at a more natural angle on a standard keyboard. The downside is that I cannot type on a split keyboard at all. I also can't type as fast as a touch typist (~50wpm is my max), but for my job, that's not a big deal. And if someone moves my keyboard 1/2" to the right, it gets me completely screwed up until I move it back... ;-D
;) Half the "egronomic" stuff I've tried myself has either been really cumbersome, if not impossible, for me to use, or even more uncomfortable than my good old reliable square keyboard and mouse-shaped mouse... ;-)
(For those who are curious, I use a really warped version of "hunt and peck" typing, but without the "hunt" part...I already know where all the keys are and just type primarily with two fingers, the middle ones, with occasional help from the index fingers or ring fingers. This method keeps my wrists elevated and removed the up/down angle entirely, and keeps my hands mostly parallel with my arms. I also use my arms more than my wrists to strike the keys, which takes a lot of the load off the tendons in my wrists. It looks fairly cumbersome, and when people see me type for the first time, they usually ask "What the hell are you doing?", but I've been doing it for so long now that it seems perfectly natural to me. I've tried to learn to touch type, but never could do it...partly, I think, because my fingers are rather stubby, and partly because I have some fine motor control problems.)
I think when it comes to input devices, the right device is the one that feels the most natural to you. If it doesn't cause you any discomfort or pain over extended use and feels "right" to you, who gives a damn whether it's "officially" egronomic?
DennyK
I used an ergonomic keyboard for about 4 years, but switched back to a normal keyboard. I found that I'm more comfortable using a keyboard that requires less pressure to depress the keys. I also switched to dvorak and use the window manager "ion" to minimize my use of the mouse. This helped dramatically.
I use both an ergonomic KB and a laptop KB.
I use the lappy at school and I can really feel a difference betewwn them. The ergo KB feels much better to me, personaly. Also, I am so used to my ergo KB that my error rate at school on the lappy is MUCH higher. Too bad that only MS makes ergo KBs..... Also, the ergo KB, I've found, is actually better for FPS games like CS and Q3!
When I started high school in 1991, I had typing lessons on good old fashioned typewriters. Granted, this was a girls school so we had a lot of traditional subjects like typing, cooking, sewing etc.
However, learning to type properly has really helped me to reduce pain. I sit properly, i don't rest my wrists on the table, and i have learnt how to reach every key from the 'home row'. those two years of classes were horrible, but if it's saved me from RSI then it's worth it.
unfortunately, i can't type in the same way on my iBook and bad habits are starting to creep in.
Actually, carpel tunnel and rts are common amongst guitar players. i dont know about pianists and what not, but im sure there is for that too. i, for one, have been playing guitar at least 3 hours a day for the past 4 years or so, plus writing in school and another 3 hours typing with good ol' ibm 101's on the computer. my wrists are fine, but a few weeks ago i started to notice tennis elbow in my left arm (im right handed, so thats the arm i use on the neck of the guitar). like an earlier post said, it's nothing that's a constant; different people have different effects and reactions to things.
We now have confirmed reports from an informed Orange County minister that Ethel is still an active communist.
I started to have problems with my wrists and fingers in typing about five years ago when I was working as a technical writer and writing books in the evenings and weekends. These pains were starting to interfere with my daily routine, and were being worr isome. I never got around to seeing a specialist, as the company I worked for collapsed and no one was retained. I'm much much better now.
I did the following things:
1) I switched mostly to using laptops for my typing, mostly Apple Powerbooks. The keybo ards require much less force than the majority of desktop keyboards I'm used to, plus putting the keyboard in my lap allowed me to drop my shoulders for better posture.
2) More frequent and short breaks from typing. If I'm not typing, or thinking, I'll d rop either or both arms and relax them down through the wrists, hands and fingers. I'll also stretch and flex the arms and hands, and take short walks, even if I never leave the area of my desk.
3) I took up music again after a few years off: I play a Chapman Stick which is a guitar/bass guitar-like instrument, played almost entirely by "hammer-on" tapping finger motions very similar to striking a keyboard (piano, or computer). By playing an instrument where I tap, but over a much wider area than on a computer keyboard, I'm exercising a wider and more varied range of motion of finger tapping than on a keyboard.
In the early stages of the computer, general rules were formed about how to type and sit at a computer. Perhaps those were not exactly optimal? The human hands were never meant to hit keys that fast, they were meant to manipulate objects.
I'm not saying that the theory of our habbits being bad is not completely off, I'm just saying that maybe you need to look upon the subject in a different manner.
Typing the old fassion way (wrists off the keyboard, sitting up, back off the chaair) is tiring for me. So yeah, I sit back, place my wrists down, and I can still type on my ergo keyboard as fast.
Perhaps we should start looking at technology serving us, rather than us serving technology. Yes, it will make us lazy, but hey, that's what it's all about isn't it?
There's my two cents.
jh
I developed a severe RSI problem a couple of years ago. I couldn't type more than a few minutes without pain.
Turns out I had problems with my neck from a car accident and it was compressing the nerves to my arms. This caused the muscles to atrophy and soon they became so weak that typing/ mouse use caused me to badly strain the muscles in my forarm.
The solution was massage therapy and chiroprators.
I've yet to meet someone with RSI (hands) who didn't also have a back/neck/or shoulder injury!
Treat the cause, not the symptoms!
RJL
The thin anemic logitech mice cause me nothing but pain. Their design causes the hand to be folded in the middle and is a major cause of pain. I've had similar problems with these thin mice at job sites and actually got one company to change out the mice to a fatter one.
Complaints by users went down and the complements to in house IT went up.
All I use are ergonomic keyboards, I'm perfectly comfortable using the type of keyboards that are split down the middle. If I happen to use a generic stock keyboard (eg: someone else's computer or college stations), I can feel my hands, wrists, etc. cramp up from the strain. To me, using a stock keyboard feels like I'm typing on a 2x10 that has been cut to 1 1/2 feet wide.
Local clinic said (duh of course) that all the computer work was causing the problems...
I did the stretching, exercising and breaks and all that, also I've only had a MS wave keyboard (3 years ago it was brand new and there was no other mainstream ergo keyboard)ever since starting on a computer and I still got the pain.
Long story short, I found an essential oil (lemongrass) that promotes the healing of tissue, and also relieves pain. I put a few drops on each wrist whenever my wrists hurt (every 10 minutes at first) my skin burned some from it, a good heat though.
After about 3 days of doing this my wrists got very stiff like a cast on the inside, they felt good though. They were stained slightly orange/brown from all the lemongrass oil.
That was over a year ago (January 2001) my wrists have not hurt since. And I confess I have done nothing to improve my posture besides sitting up straight and not resting my wrists on my desk.
This is a real solution to heal quickly and for good, that is purely natural (just one ingredient :) do this with all the other excellent advice mentioned above and you will see results the very first day.
Also the oil is only like $10 for a bottle that lasts for months.
Be sure to read up on these oils before trying this as you may not do something right and then complain that it doesn't work. Peppermint oil is another great one for nerve damage and pain.
Here's where I got the lemongrass from... http://www.youngliving.com/
No, I am not doctor, and no I don't get any money if you buy anything from the site I linked to...
I have plenty of other first hand stories of these oils healing ability as well, so no, this is not a freak incident. :)
-v
Like a lot of folks who said they were fine until some marathon gig at their computer, I hadn't experienced rsi until I spent two weeks solid typing day in and day out. Ordinarily, when I code, I'll type some code, compile, debug, type some more so most of my time is spent thinking not typing. The marathon typing session was something else.
About a week into the session, my wrists started flaring up. I could tell by looking and trying different wrist postures that the problem was that I wasn't using piano-teacher-perfect-wrist-posture. My wrists were bent at about 30 degrees instead of being ruler-flat. Knowing what's wrong and changing aren't necessarily synonymous so eventually I rigged up a sharp pencil and some velcro. The pencil was strapped across the back of my wrist so that if I bent my wrist at all, I'd get a poke to remind me to straighten my wrists. The poke was enough to correct my wrist posture and the correct posture made the pain go away.
Now, instead of sharp pencils, I use two keyboard wrist rests stacked one on the other so my wrists can't even think about bending. It looks a little odd but not as odd as pencils strapped to the back of my wrists.
If you're one who types all day and thinks rsi is imaginary because you haven't experienced it, think of yourself as more evolutionarily fit to join the typing pool. Either you have naturally perfect posture or your wrists are shaped in such a way that your tendons aren't chafed by typing.
Let's recap here. You're not an M.D. He is. Let's ask the crowd. Who do you believe?
I'll restate my position, which is:
The false sense of security a gadget and a little marketing material can provide, with the added bonus of the placebo effect, injures a lot of people. I mean A LOT of people.
Now, please, pay attention.
GET A DOCTOR. DON'T DO ANYTHING TO DIAGNOSE, OR TREAT, YOUR CONDITION THAT SHE DOESN'T TELL YOU TO DO.
Thank you.
We're on the road to Tycho.
In my experience the mouse is the killer.
Since I got my IBM Thinkpad laptop with the TrackPoint pointing device (in the center of the keyboard) all my wrist pain from the right wrist has gone. If I had to start using a desktop again I would purchase a keyboard with TrackPoint (IBM has such a thing).
I find the laptop keyboard very comfortable because there is room to rest the arms unlike in normal keyboard. The only concern is that the keyboard is of cource a little bit small but I am used to that now.
Does anyone know other manufacturers of keyboards with TrackPoint like pointing devices? I do not want to sound like advertising IBM...
You're not a counter-example to anything. All I'm saying is this:
Never use an ergonomic keyboard as a substitute for a doctor.
The false sense of security a gadget and a little marketing material can provide, with the added bonus of the placebo effect, injures a lot of people. I mean A LOT of people.
Now, please, pay attention.
If you suspect you're developing an RSI, don't wait, GET A DOCTOR. DON'T DO ANYTHING TO DIAGNOSE, OR TREAT, YOUR CONDITION THAT SHE DOESN'T TELL YOU TO DO.
As I've also pointed out, often times the substance of what they tell you is simple workplace ergonomics. But people get injured trying to treat themselves, and in a 1st world country there's no reason for that.
We're on the road to Tycho.
You missed the important part in your summary:
I was given two cortisone injections, an exercise regimen, and a piece of advice
I have read many comments about changing posture, keyboard design, and doing exercises, but none about changing the keyboard layout.
During my first year of college my honors cs prof mentioned in class that he was teaching himself how to type using the dvorak layout so I searched for information on it and decided if it could help keep me from getting RSI or CTS, it was worth the effort. I waited until the summer to convert and am very glad that I did.
After using someone else's machine I immediatelly notice how fluent it feels (I spent more years using qwerty than dvorak) and how much less I have to move off of the homerow. Dvorak is not a cure-all and may in reality help much, but I typed quite a bit in the last five years and have not had any complaints.
I would suggest doing the easy things (different posture, different keyboard design, exercises, etc) first, but, in the end, dvorak may still be beneficial.
Just as an aside, I have learned how to toggle the keyboard layout on many differnt platforms and can change it easily in windows using left alt+left shift or in linux with two simple scripts, "aoeu" and "asdf". That way any machine I use is still totally accessible to anyone.
I try every new keyboard I come across, ergonomic or not, and every keyboard that I've seen in the last few years, except one, seem to have been made with a snappy key feel that just kills my hands. The one exception is the Datahand, which can be ordered with very soft keys.
Why don't other keyboard makers pay attention to key feel?
I was always told that you should type the [6] key with the index finger on your right hand (makes sense). However, every ergonomic keyboard I've seen actually has this key on the left side of the keyboard.
I would suggest that these keyboards ergonomically incorrect, so to speak.
Thoughts/comments?
I'm a unix admin and spend a lot of time typing every day. A couple years ago I started developing RSI symptoms in both hands, and requested to my manager to get an ergonomic keyboard. His response was "Go to the store right now and buy one, I'll sign the purchase requisition when you get back." He's an admin too, obviously :-)
I bought a Logitech Desktop Cordless Pro wireless keyboard/mouse set, and after one week the stiffness and soreness were reduced so dramatically that I bought another one for home use, even though I do comparitively little typing there. At the end of another week, all symptoms were gone and they have never returned. I cannot recommend the Cordless Desktop Pro highly enough. I imagine the MS Natural would offer similar benefits, but after trying them both I found I preferred the design and feel of the Logitech unit.
I would recommend an ergonomic keyboard to anyone who does a lot of keyboarding. I know this is just one person's anecdotal evidence, but my experience has been that they are extremly effective in preventing and reversing RSI.
I am typing on a datahand right now.
I have been using it for about a year and a half. While I feel very sorry for DaveWood, I want to set the record straight about this: The Datahand is absolutely not worthless.
I don't have serious RSI, but I used to get these back-of-the-hand tinglies just like Dave. I bought the datahand both to be a productivity boost and to give my hands and shoulders a chance.
My experiences differ from DaveWoods in several ways:
1) I never get sore or tinglies with the datahand.
2) I learned to type my old typing speed in about 6 weeks (and I was a reasonably fast typist)
3) I use a danish keyboard layout, not an english one, which REALLY sucked compared to the US keyb layout in the beginning, until Datahand developed a danish keyboard ROM from my advice and upgraded my datahand with it free of charge
My datahand is the best piece of ecquipment I have ever purchased for my computer, and I can write code and reports for 10-12 hour stretches without any problems.
I am aware that this doesn't totally remove the risk of RSI, which is why I think DaveWood still has problems with it (too far gone), but I'd say it reduces the wear and tear by about 90-95%.
So if you are only beginning to have slight problems, and you want to do something about it before it's too late or gets too serious, I'd recommend the Datahand any day. It's well worth it's heavy price tag.
So, Dave, I am sorry it didn't help you, but to a lot of other people it might make the whole difference.
And a cortizone shot isn't a solution. That's like breaking the gas warning light on your car and hope it fixes the empty tank; you are just removing the symptom. Not the problem.
I would still recommend that you get yourself a datahand. If you are serious about it, it doesn't take long to learn. That might make the difference between getting a cortizone shot every 6 months and every 12 months.
Give me liberty or give me kill -s 9
mg eronomif kryboatd is jyst finr! Thznk yoj very mucj!
how does one change his
When I experienced first signs of RSI I changed to a Microsoft Natural Keyboard. Nothing changed. Then I adjusted desk, chair, and screen dimensions. Nothing changed. Things got worse. I spent approx. 500 euros on an excelent chair. Things stabilised, but the RSI remained.
So, I went to a specialist that got me back behind a keyboard through half a year of therapy. Later, he told me it wasn't him that cured me, but rather me changing my working attitude and generally adjusting my lifestyle and physical condition.
OK. This is the way it worked for me, but what's the morale more generally? RSIs are caused by (at least) four factors:
Workplace - Ergonomy of devices, chair, room temparature, etc.
Stress - Workload, attitude to work and leasure, etc.
Physical condition - Smoking, drinking, fast food, car driving, etc.
Individual - Some people do 14-hour days for years without a problem, while others suffer from CTS within months. (Live isn't fair!)
In my humble opinion, people who claim that "some inventor" could improve one device or another with such excelence that all other factors no longer matter simply don't know what they are talking about. My opinion: When you don't have a problem, don't bother - just be alert and don't ignore pain. When your wrists, shoulders, elbows or back DO hurt, then ACT. Go see a specialist, adjust your lifestyle, improve ergonomics.
Be pro active and you will safe yourself loads of pain, trouble and money in the long term.
The MS Natural Keyboard is really nice to use, much better than the typical straight, flat keyboard - this is a combination of the more natural, relaxed hand position and the big keys. Personally I find ordinary keyboards fiddly and klunky.
As far as mice go you want one on which you can rest your hand comfortably.
Much RSI is due to resting the forearms on the edge of the desk and of course those stupid desks with raised platforms for monitors among other idiocies. But some people do other stupid things like having the monitor off to the side, but the keyboard right in front of them.
There is also significant evidence that RSI is related to finger sensitivity and the maximum rate at which you can make small movements.
When I was a system administrator most people I worked with used Autocad and as that involves mostly working with the mouse they got their problems from the mouse.
My experiences were:
- there is a psychological part too: the people who ended sick at home were people who had given me the impression before that they were not very happy at their work.
- I had a little collection of different mouses and trackballs. If people had problems they could try them out. If they had a mouse at home that they liked we bought that one.
- a big part of many treatments is making you conscious of what is happening in your body. The thing that impressed me most was some muscle-tension-meter that you put around your arm. If you see that some of your muscles are too tense you are sure to try to relax them.
- the article thinks that it is bad that people have to relearn with a new keyboard. I think it is good. It makes people more conscious of what they are doing.
cut the keypad! this keyboard part is unsuefull.
;)
And plain stupid if you are not a secretary.
it take the place of the mouse.
so ther is 2 choose. make the gui navigate
trought the use of keypad or remove it.
I am looking for a keyboard whit out KP
Some people just seem to be prone to RSI and some not, just as with allergies, hayfever and so on...
I'm one that is, keyboards almost got unusable for me until I invested in one of those ergonomic types - very few problems now. They should all be made like that really - it's common sense not to cramp your arms/wrist into unnatural positions. Oh, and they make sure you type properly as you have to use the right hand now!
That way fewer people would develop any problems in the first place.
Try IKEA - get a trestle desk! Fully adjustable, cheap as chips (mine cost about 180 pounds with a sweet glass top) and they're environmentally sound!
It doesnt say 'computer desk' on it - but why should it?
Go for a wooden top and get out your jigsaw and you can create your own ergonomic curves to nestle under if you like.
Personally - I like to see my feet while I type!
Especially for Duke Nukem 3D.
John, your keyboard sucks.
I have two M$ Natural Keyboard Pro and I love 'em. With ordinary "strait" ;-) keyboards I get lame in my wrists, arms and shoulders after a while of typing. I can sit hours with my MNKs.
I dont think that an ergo-board would realy help combat something like CTS on its own, personaly I've gotten something very close to CTS, and have it now, from writing a 7 page paper in 5 hours. I think its primarly work habbits more than anything else. for more info follow this url.[ http://www.carpal-tunnel-questions-and-answers.com / tml/prevention.html ]
"My heart is in the work." - Andrew Carnegie
I am a software engineer who types every day. Years
ago I noticed that I had an ever increasing pain in
my forearms and in my wrists. An orthopedic surgeon
told me to find a way to relieve my pain or change
jobs. I use wrists braces when I sleep if the pain
flares up but I also changed my keyboards. First I
sampled the Micro$oft (un)natural keyboard which
seems to be the keyboard or the pattern for the
knockoff brands that most poor slobs choose. Take my
advice: Don't use it. The first thing I noticed as
a touch typest was that the '6' key was on the
wrong hand! This keyboard design is not enough to
help people with real problems. I highly suggest
looking at a Kinesis keyboard. I prefer what is
now called the "classic" model. I have two of
them and they really help my wrist and forearm
problems. This keyboard is different enough to
solve many problems but it can be learned in a few
days, unlike those ugly chording keyboards which
may work but require a brand new start in typing.
I use the kinesis chair mount keyboard. I love it! I've got it mounted on my aeron. Arms are nicely supported and am able to type with hands in perfect position.
Plus it looks like you should be piloting th enterprise.
Kinesis Desk Mount Keyboard
is helpful. A few years back I switched to the Logitech Cordless Ergo desktop setup, with an ergo keyboard and funky ergo mouse. While I enjoyed it, the pain in my mouse hand gradually grew worse and worse. I finally began searching for replacements, going first with Logitech cos of my good experience with them.
The first thing I found was that touchpads and thumb-trackballs are utterly worthless. The learning curve isn't so steep, it's just that you just cannot do most thing nearly as well with such obtuse setups. (I used a touchpad for 6 months thinking I'd get used to it before finally waking up from that delusion.)
Hand trackballs are where it's at. I checked out all the offerings from Logitech and Microsoft. The Logitech cordless hand trackball (looks kinda like the Delta Flyer) was their best model, and reduced the pain, but not entirely. I ended up sticking with the Microsoft Trackball Explorer. It's not cordless, but it is red-ball optical, and for the first month or so you have it, it moves like a dream. As you use it, it begins to require regular maintenance - nothing deep, just pop the ball out and scrape the gunk out of the three ball holders. I've also experienced with every one I've owned (two each for home and work) what I can only describe as shorts in the cord if it gets bent in certain ways - unfortunately, those are the ways it comes folded in in the box. Easily remedied, though.
i HATE ergonmically correct keyboards ... i have used a standard keyboard since i was in the 2nd grade and at home and have had only one painfull experience when i let my wrist stay in one position for an extended period of time and t hurt for about 3 days ... that was maybe 2 years ago i am 19 now and what do you know i have no problems or anything like that related to a repetive motion syndrom. and i'm on a computer anywhere from 30 mins to 6 hours typing letters ... coding ... gaming ... chatting ... email my g/f the usual stuff... all i had to do wa force myself to pay attention to my posture and make sure that i didn't hold my wrist at anything but a flat 180 degrees ... maybe it's b/c i also play the piano and some other musical instruments i dunno but an ergonomic keyboard drives me berserk !!!! ... just my .02$
~moosie~
At home, I have an older Microsoft ergonomic keyboard on a level surface and use a Logitech trackball.
At work, choices are obviously limited (this company could care less about OSHA!) but at least my keyboard is on one of those under-desk platforms that allows me to tilt the keyboard down and away from me which is very comfortable on my wrists. Otherwise, both the keyboard and the mouse are your standard crap.
I believe that ergonomic keyboards are very comfortable and help prevent cramping of the wrists just because your wrists are in a more natural spaced apart position. At work on this normal keyboard, my wrists can cramp up.
As for the mouse though, my trackball is more less demanding my my wrists and clicking fingers than your stand mouse. Now, some of the newer Logitech mouses are longer and more comfortable, but a trackball really allows your hands to comform naturally to the device.
I know a lot of people find ergonomic keyboards unpleasant, uncomfortable or just plain unuseable. For myself, I swear by them. I just don't swear anyone else to or by them.
Maybe its something about my physiology (size of my hands?) but I find it far more comfortable having a keyboard that is convex rather than concave.
With an ergo keyboard (convex, the keyboard curved towards you) the keyboard seems to meet my hands, whereas with a normal keyboard (usually flat or curving invwards) I have to make significant wrist/hand posture changes to adjust for different keys.
My personal experience of ergos was that the first week of using them was unpleasant - on occasions verging on painful. I've been using them for around 3 years now. The odd cramps and twinges I was getting in my wrist-area and mid-upper hands are gone.
I used to find myself wringing my hands to iron out what you might call kinks regularly - no more.
A few days back on a Sun or HP keyboard and I start feeling the key impacts when typing things like "number", and the twinges come back.
Do I think Ergo keyboards are a magic cure-all? No. Keyboards are unattural things. Our digits aren't that far divorced from their branch grasping origins. I do think that ergo keyboards better suit some people, and I do think if you're an ergo person that the difference between and ergo and a non are dramatic.
Oliver
-- A change is as good as a reboot.
there are 4 factors that contribute to an rsi injury: force duration speed awkward position an ergo keyboard will only address the awkward position factor.
Have you gotten professional help? Tell me you at least got some medical advice.
As I said, I don't doubt the modern keyboard could be considerably improved. But you lost me when you started contradicting the M.D.
Are you a doctor? Any medical training at all? Go ahead, surprise me.
My understanding is that Cortisone can alleviate an inflamation feedback process and, as in my case, it's useful when used in concert with things like exercise, workplace ergonomics, and better habits.
RSI is a very scary thing, and the will to believe is equally powerful.
It's a big mistake for you to put your trust in a keyboard company rather than a doctor you trust.
If your doctor tells you to get a datahand, knock yourself out. Otherwise, caveat emptor.
We're on the road to Tycho.
Muscles are single acting; they can pull but they cannot push. Joints are double acting; they are powered both ways. The secret is that muscles come in antagonistic pairs, one to flex the joint, and on the other side, one to extend it.
This is like the p-type and n-type transistors in CMOS. Turn on the n-type transistor to pull the output low. Turn on the p-type transistor to pull the output high. Both off at the same time for tri-state. Both on at the same time to short out the power supply and blow up the chip. In the human body, both muscles are off in the relaxed state. If both muscles are slightly on, this pre-stresses the tendons, taking up any slack, and effectively stiffening the joint. This is what you do for exacting fine work, e.g. embroidery or surgery. This is why such work is tiring, even when the external forces you exert are small. For ordinary work, you must coordinate your muscles so that they are non-overlapping.
When you type on a mechanical typewriter, you push hard. I've just been measuring my old Olivetti Lettera 22. The keyboard is open underneath so it is a simple matter to dangle an icecream tub underneath and fill it with water until the rachet clicks to advance the carriage. 1.12 kg. 17mm of key travel. (* 9.81 1.12 0.017) = 186mJ. If you are typing 30 four letter words a minute that is (* (/ 30 60.0) (+ 4 1) 0.186) = 0.464 W. It is not hard physical work.
1.12 kg, say 10N, feels like a lot if you are not used to it, but the significance lies elsewhere. It is way more than the force exerted by the relaxed tone in the muscles that control your finger. So to type a character you turn a flexor full on, and turn it back off again. The typewriter is geared at about 6 to 1, much like a piano, so the hammer is flying pretty fast. Its momentum slams it into the paper, making the impression and the rebound and the little coil spring in the typewriter bring your finger and the key back up. You literally never lift a finger. The springs in the machine lift your fingers for you. You can type with the extensor muscles relaxed all the time. Touch typing on a manual typewriter requires alot of coordination, but it does not require every kind of co-ordination. In particular you do not have to co-ordinate your flexors and extensors to avoid having them both on at the same time, because you never turn on your extensors at all.
A modern mouse is very different. If you just plonk your hand down on top of it you click all three buttons. You have to use you extensors to not click. When I restarted using a computer after a lengthy illness, I rapidly got pains in my arms, from holding my fingers off the mouse buttons all the time. I had to learn to be just tense enough to stop the natural curl of my fingers from clicking the buttons. What happens when I click a mouse button? What is supposed to happen is that the extensor is turned off then the flexor is turned on, then the flexor is turned off, then the extensor is turned back on, so that they don't overlap. I've not done any electro-myography, but I don't believe it is happening like that. Briefly relaxing a muscle that is kept tense most of the time is difficult and time consumming. I bet that the flexor is turned on hard to over come the extensor. How much damage does that do? It probably depends alot on the office environment. If you are generally relaxed and have only just enough tension in your extensors to avoid accidental mouse clicks, I cannot see it doing much harm. If work is fraught, and you tense up to avoid mistakes, beware. The forces exerted when your flexors and extensors are on at the same time add up internally, but cancel externally. You might think that you cannot be stressing your tendons because the switches have a light action and you are not exerting much force, but if that force is the difference between the force exerted by the flexor and the extensor, your tissues might be under a great deal of internal mechanical stress.
I suspect that much the same goes for a modern keyboard. You have to actively lift your fingers off the keys after the stroke. You don't have the option of flexor-only typing. So when work gets hectic and pressured, and your coordination is not 100%, you get flexors working harder to overcome extensors that are not being fully turned off, and lots of internal mechanical stress.
My theory is that these internal stresses are larger than with a clnky old mechanical typewriter and are the cause of RSI.
How can one find out if this theory is true? One way is to get a researcher interested enough in this theory to use electro-myography to find out if both muscles are indeed being turned on at the same time. Another way is to get a keyboard and a mouse with `heavy' long travel keys. This would make sense in a prospective study, in which you equip half a cohort of new users with the clunky mouse and key board, and follow up after five years to see who has RSI and who hasn't. It doesn't make much sense as a treatment. If you have learned to type on a light keyboard with your extensors turned on, the extra force needed to operate a heavier keyboard might be translated by habit into more activation of the extensors as well as more activation of the flexors. I cannot see a heavier keyboard in itself working as therapy, unless the sufferer can learn the flexor only typing technique it permits, and avoid falling back into flexor/extensor overlap habits when work gets hectic.
best keyboard ever: microsoft natural keyboard pro
best keylayout ever: sun type6
now if only someone would switch the control and capslock keys on my natural, i'd be happy.
he basically assessed my symptoms, which could indicate any one (or more) of CTS, dequervain's disease, or tennis elbow, then suggested a test to determine which one it really was (electro-miography). We treated things with systemic anti-inflammatory medication and lots of rest, which eased the symptoms somewhat.
I also have to agree.
:(
Having tendinitis, there are a few things that I have found to help:
1. posture. My arms must rest on the desk, An l-shaped preferred, but not required(with a sqare desk, you can use a corner for the monitor so that at least one arm is on the desk). I have to agree that the ergo desks/pull out trays are not real good. Chair must be at proper height to allow arms to rest on the desk.
2. keyboard. Ergonimic keyboard is required. typical keyboards require holding my writsts at a 45 or 60 degree angle, therefore it irritaes them rather quickly. Having an arm brace, I took it to the store with me (several years ago)and selected the keyboard that allowed my wrists to be in the position that the arm brace enforced. While all of the ergo ones allowed my writst to be straight,
I found the LiteOn to be the best as it lifts in the front as opposed to the back. Unfortunately they don't appear to make the model anymore
Ironically I have noticed the Microsoft keyboard and other back-lifting keyboards bother my wrists, just in a different way. I have also noticed that the mouse pads on ergo-keyboards tend to bother my wrist as well.
3. Mouse. I have noticed that using the mouse more than the keyboard causes pain. Therefore I try not to use the mouse when possible, but it is difficult as I need to use windows at work and each version has less keyboard shortcuts than the previous versions. <flame>What annoys me more is when shortcuts change. I finally got used to ctrl-f instead of f3 and now ctrl-f in Outlook is forward. wtf? These useless changes make it harder to stay away from the mouse. </flame>
4. Stretching. When my wrists are bothering me, I stretch them out and that tends to help.
5. Strength. Having tendinitis, doing exercises to strengthen the muscles/tendons helps quite a bit also.
Sample Exercises for stretching/strengthening
Though xmodmap will allow you to remap keys, if you get the Classic version of this keyboard you can reprogram any key on it directly in the keyboard. I've done this to swap Delete and Escape and it works great (and is completely OS independent ;))
Behold the Power of Cheese!
I don't have RSI, and especially not from typing. I use the regular old MS natural keyboard, but I'd used the standard kind for years before they were available.
I did, however, find that I do suffer from tendonitis in my right wrist - mainly from mousing. What I found helps best is to hold the mouse correctly. For the standard teardrop-ish Microsoft mouse, I keep my index finger on the button, and I clutch the base of the mouse under my thumb, not under my palm, or the heel of my hand. I found that this changed the angle at which I hold the mouse, and took the stress off the outside edge of my wrist, where it hurt the most.
I've even experimented with some adhesive and velcro - and on MY system, I have a little thumb-strap that fastens around my thumb, so I can keep the moust at the proper angle in relation to my hand.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
It sounds like you had a terrible experience. Curious; are you talking about fusion surgery? In any case, chiropracters have their reputation for a reason. I totally agree that we need to be "informed consumers" with the medical profession - read everything you can, ask questions, and by all means seek 2nd and 3rd opinions about major issues, let alone if you have any doubt about what you're hearing. Finally, you absolutely have to shop around. Even in America, if you just pick a name out of the phone book you'll get terrible care. You have to ask people; read journals, make calls... Find out who people think is the best in the area and then ask them who the best is. The good thing is that, with insurance, the top 2% costs the same as the other 98% (within reason).
All that said, if it's you versus the M.D., I'll take the M.D. every time.
And are we even talking about that? Or are we really talking about a keyboard company versus the M.D.?
You must realize how ridiculous that sounds.
I suppose the keyboard maker took something like the businessman's equivalent of the hippocratic oath, except instead of "do no harm" it goes "sell as many as possible." There is no substitute for a qualified physician, and since most of us have insurance, there is no reason not to see one.
It is critically important that people understand that if they are having pain or numbness, they need to go get quality medical care right away. You're a fool to diagnose and treat yourself with something as important as this; you'll be prey to every opportunist with a gadget and a good story. And you desperately want to believe it, because you don't want the reality of a visit to a specialist. You want to replace your keyboard and have the problem go away.
The problem is that even if your symptoms are moderated by a keyboard or an office chair, you still have a problem. You're crazy not to have yourself under the care of a professional. Look at what you're fucking with! It's not worth it to screw around with something like this - it will end your professional life!
If your doctor tells you to go out and get keyboard X, Y, or Z, fine. But don't let denial and fear drive you to do something totally contrary to common sense. Certainly, don't try to pass off the justification that "all doctors are crooked" as a reason to avoid seeing a good specialist and doing what they tell you. Maybe you already realize how silly that sounds.
We're on the road to Tycho.
My buddy has one of those fancy-shmacy data hand keyboards w/ the DVORAK mapping. He types something like 120-150 wpm! He was a fellow sufferer of RSI but seems to be doing better. As for me, I shouldn't be typing this much... *owh* the M$FT elite kbd seems to not be doing the trick. Maybe the M$FT keyboard requires more force to press keys, causing more injury? Or do clicky kybds cause more injury due to the acceleration of the "click" action? Whatever, ill just have to get a speech recognizer and injure my vocal cords.
The biggest trick the devil pulled was letting lawyers become politicians so they can write the laws.
Actually, I don't blindly believe it. In addition to having a highly qualified and well-respected specialist tell me, it reflects my own experience and the experience of others that I know. That would, actually, be more or less the opposite of "blind." Unless by "blind" you mean I didn't ask your opinion.
I'm adamant about these things because people get hurt, even get their lives ruined, by avoiding the doctor and putting their faith in gadgets and the dreams of marketing executives.
I see you made up an anecdote meant to illustrate that the doctor is only treating the symptoms... Very amsuing, Dr. Undecidable. I can see why, too. If you just came out and said "these cheating RSI specialists never cure the disease, all they do is treat the symptoms," it would be much more obvious what a nut you're turning out to be. It doesn't bother me much; my 3-4 appointments were several years ago, and I bet, given your beliefs, you'll be seeing a specialist before I'll be back.
Going around telling people not to trust doctors, to try to diagnose and treat themselves, has consequences I hope you just haven't thought about yet.
If you were paying attention instead of shilling for the keyboard company of the week, you would have noticed that the substance of my experience is that I changed quite a bit: work habits, exercise routine, chair and desk setup, etc. You could say this is what made the difference, but I think it more accurrate to simply say "being under the care of a competent professional."
In other words, someone like you, except with years of ivy league medical school, decades of clinical experience, and a little common sense.
The really ironic thing about this is that I don't think you'd be denying the obvious quite so vehemently if you weren't really worried about all this, somewhere in the back of your mind...
Good luck yourself. Don't say I didn't try to warn you.
We're on the road to Tycho.
I'm sorry you feel my comments have hit a bit too close to home for comfort - in my experience it's a sign you're not very bright if a logical, reasoned response to your points strikes you as nasty. The truth often is.
Once again you misinterpret me so as to have something you can mount a sensible argument against. Speaking of backing off, my experience was that the keyboard manufacturer was not nearly as circumspect about the chance of improvement with their product as you now appear to be. Hence my warning - don't deal with the keyboard manufacturers. Deal with a doctor.
Of course, when I say keyboard manufacturers, I'm talking about companies like Datahand (as I mentioned in my original post), and you are talking about the Microsoft Natural keyboard - perhaps the difference is too subtle for you. But pressing on...
So you've read a bit on the issue outside the product brochures, eh? You didn't cite any sources, but let's speak hypothetically for a moment; so, keyboards don't help people who've developed a problem... they're a preventative measure, according to "your reading." Funny; that's not what one might take away from your original post. But do you want to tell the crowd how people know if it's too late for a keyboard to help them? Or perhaps you'd rather leave that too... a qualified physician?
I also appreciate your feigned ignorance about my point - very amusing. Here, let me spell it out for you, since it's no fair if you're too baffled to follow along, right?
Try to read slowly so as not to become confused.
You said:
You must realize you silly you sound:
10 You have behavour X
20 You become unhealthy.
30 You give doctor money to cure symptom of behavour X.
40 Your doctor tells you to continue behavour X.
50 goto 10
And I said:
I see you made up an anecdote meant to illustrate that the doctor is only treating the symptoms... Very amsuing, Dr. Undecidable. I can see why, too. If you just came out and said "these cheating RSI specialists never cure the disease, all they do is treat the symptoms," it would be much more obvious what a nut you're turning out to be. It doesn't bother me much; my 3-4 appointments were several years ago, and I bet, given your beliefs, you'll be seeing a specialist before I'll be back.
Focus. Concentrate. If it still seems confusing, maybe you should take a walk and them come back to the computer.
Where was I? Ah yes. You're accusing me of "backing off from my original statement." Right. This may save you some trouble. No matter how much you hammer away at this, it won't change the fact that all I've done is relay the advice of my (very good) physician.
What was your complaint about that again? Oh yes. That doctors are greedy liars who want you to stay sick so they can keep treating you. Or, perhaps it was that doctors don't know what they're doing and can't help you.
Ok. Anything else to add?
We're on the road to Tycho.
The Ctrl key is such an important ergonomic issue that I have put off my purchase of a new Apple laptop. I won't buy from Apple (not even a desktop machine) until they fix this problem.
I am in Apple's target market. I am a long-time Unix user. I appreciate quality! I lust after their laptops. But I just can't buy one, yet.
This is because I can't use the keyboards on their laptops. I need the key to the left of the 'A' to be a Ctrl key. This is not just a want; it is a genuine need based upon ergonomic reasons.
When Apple redesigns their laptop motherboards to use built-in USB keyboards, instead of built-in ADB keyboards, they will have fixed the problem. They have not yet done so.
Note: is is now possible to use the built-in ADB keyboard with Debian GNU/Linux, but as of yet, Apple has not made it possible for unix old-timers to use with OSX. Nor is it possible (as far as I know) to use with FreeBSD, NetBSD, or OpenBSD.
For full details on how the ADB keyboard was mis-designed, check out my previous slashdot posts.
Please note that my intention is not to troll. My intention is to warn other long-time unix users that Apple's laptop keyboards are not yet acceptable, and also to try to communicate this fact to people inside Apple. I want to effect change. I want Apple to fix this last problem, so that I can enthusiastically support them. If I didn't care, and if I didn't want to see this positive change, I wouldn't have bothered spending the time to make these posts.
Unfortunately, I have almost no hope. Apple has demonstrated for more than 10 years that they will not address the concerns of unix users. I sincerely hope that they change their ways. The fact that they now have a very-high quality unix OS gives me hope that they might start to care about unix users.
Ah yes. You're the guy who said
After abusing their body for 10+ years using poorly designed keyboards and improper positioning, etc., people that complain that the new ergonomic keyboard they purchased were a waste of money don't impress me with their wisdom. This is similar to abusing your body for 10+ years with junk food, and then complaining that it takes so long to lose weight and get into shape.
I can see that you actually didn't directly suggest keyboards will help cure RSI - you're just jumping in for the guy who did. Still; how do you know which keyboards are good for you and which aren't? Your answer: seems to be "ask the keyboard company." They feed you a line about the way the keys are positioned or the angle of the split, and you decide that it "makes sense to [you.]"
Yes, I remember now. Your point was:
So why do I believe that a "new-fangled" keyboard may be worth it? Two main reasons: my personal experience, and the fact that they just make more sense than an old keyboard.
So, on your side you have your own personal experience, plus the fact that it "just [makes] more sense." On my side, I have personal experience, and obviously what we believe makes sense to us, no matter what method we came by our beliefs, and... oh yes. A doctor.
Not satisfied yet, you even manage to point out the fact that there are no well done studies showing the benefits of the technology you are shilling for. It's just you and the keyboard company, asking us to take it on faith. And it makes sense to you, so it must be right, right?
Someone better notify the FDA and the AMA - this could revolutionize medical research. If it makes sense to Undecidable, I'm sure that we need not worry that there is no experimental verification, or if trained M.D.'s disagree. After all - he's very sure! And if anyone gets hurt by putting off a doctor's visit and using his or another miracle keyboard instead, he'll support them in their early retirment, too!
You will, won't you? What - you don't have malpractice insurance?
I'm sure you'll coyly pretend all this is going over your head, so I'll repeat myself even more plainly: in medicine, something is considered worthless until proven otherwise according to the standards of the medical community. A potential improvement, such as a better keyboard, is nothing more than potential - worthless (except in closely controlled clinical trials) until proven otherwise. Without these minor impediments to your argument, I doubt either of us would be alive, since at some point or another someone's "beliefs" probably would have killed either ourselves our one of our ancestors.
You know, even if you're right, and instead of seeing a doctor, we should all go get the ergonomic keyboard of our choice when we feel "small amounts of pain" - just like you did - how do you know which keyboards are actually ergonomic and which are just pretending to be?
Oh, right. Ask Dr. Undecidable! He's done some reading. He'll tell you what pains are small and what are not. He'll even tell you which keyboards are best. You don't even need to come in for a visit - he can do it all, right over the internet, with his powerful intuition! How small is a small amount of pain, doctor? When does small become large? At what point do you give up on the keyboards and decide you need to get help? Maybe if we're giving up too fast, we're just "complaining that it takes so long to lose weight and get into shape."
Oh, right. We should only go to the doctor when it's "serious."
ATTENTION EVERYONE: Dr. Undecidable HAS JUST DECIDED THAT YOU ONLY NEED TO GO SEE A SPECIALIST WHEN YOU HAVE A "SERIOUS RSI."
Where was I? Ah yes. I'm afraid I see a pattern here, Dr. Undecidable. You have a series of things you seem to do when attempting to argue. They fit into a pretty simple pattern, actually.
For the sake of brevity, I'm going to list your responses and then provide the appropriate numeric code. Since it's apparent that your rapacious intellect has already devoured and revolutionized RSI-related medical care, I'm sure keeping up with this minor abstraction will be no problem for you. When you next respond, feel free to simply use the numbers I've laid out rather than writing out new fallacies in full - it may save you some time.
Let's begin.
You're apologizing for something that I never said or expressed. 1
If you feel that I am misinterpreting your statements, then by all means, please point out how. I am not interested in having an argument just for the sake of arguing. 1
You didn't make it clear if you were referring to the previous trials with my doctors or yours. 1
No where did you state that you changed anything about the way you type. 1
You should share with us more about what changes you (or your doctor) thought were useful. 1
Which is it? Do your doctors feel that ergonomic keyboards are "worthless"? Or do they feel that they are a "part of the puzzle"? 2
The advice that you espouse in your original post was to seek professional help and basically do whatever they say. 2
And I don't believe that ergonomic keyboards are a worthless piece to the long-term solution puzzle. 3
Tell me something. Are you in politics?
-Dave
We're on the road to Tycho.
Hi, My name is David Wood. I'm a Dumb Monkey.
Let me tell you about my experience with RSI.
I can type very very fast on a regular keyboard. I knew that RSI occurs in my family, but I wasn't concerned because I'm a Dumb Monkey.
About three years ago I started to feel a tingling sensation on the backs of my hands - as if they were "falling asleep." First this would happen after the odd 12-16 minute sessions of straight coding, but gradually unusual aches, pains and numbness became more and more common, until it was happening every day. This is what happens when you ignore the early symptoms of RSI like a Dumb Monkey.
Once I realized that this was a real problem, I read every single piece of literature on the internet about RSI (all 2,073,418 of them), and then I moved on to the library and the medical books. Everything said the same thing: "see a specialist now - don't wait!" But guess what? I could't afford a specialist. I did't have health insurance because I'm a Dumb Monkey, and I didn't have the spare cash because I'm a Dumb Monkey.
Instead, I decided to spend $1000 on a new keyboard. Really, I couldn't afford to see a doctor, but the keyboard was only a $1000. Even though all of the reading that I did indicated that ergonomic keyboards alone will not typically cure serious RSI, I'm a Dumb Monkey, so I thought it would work.
I bought the DataHand because the sales guy was really nice and he told me it would work.
But because I ignored the early symptoms for so long, it was too late, and my condition just got worse to the point that I had to stop working. Fortunately, because I don't really do much, my partners never actually noticed.
Finally, my company was able to get health insurance for me. So, I headed right out and defrauded my new insurance company to pay for my preexisting condition. I went to a nice doctor, and she gave me some cortisone injections. Somehow this cost more than $1000. I complained to her about the horrible keyboard experience I had had, and she told me what I had already read: that a good ergonomic keyboard was just one aspect of preventing RSI.
But I was still pissed off at the fact that I had RSI for so long since I didn't have health insurance since I'm a Dumb Monkey. So when the chance came up on slash dot to let out my frustration at ergonomic keyboard manufacturers, I thought I would tell everyone that my super specialist told me that they are worthless. Worthless I tell you!
So, in summary:
"The only rights you have are the rights you are willing to fight for."
Oooh Ooooh Ahhh Ahhh.... 1, 2, and 3!
:)
We're on the road to Tycho.