Slashdot Mirror

I know this is a bit off topic but given your post I just can't help but to respond with this: Toaster oven linux appliance :)

- Petaris

"The World is Open. Are You?"

Linux is an open-source version of Unix designed for Intel chips.

No, it's a clone of Unix, and it is no longer designed only for Intel chips. It was originally designed just for the 386, but now runs on anything, including your toaster.

Though I've read up on the subject, as far as anecdotal support goes I've only seen a small number of thin client sites in recent years. However, of the thin client sites I've seen, I have to say that the ones running LTSP or a variant, have been really pleasant to use and the ones running (or more correctly trying to run) Windows-based thin clients have been poor to unusable.

A third option to consider would be to buy extra screens, mice and keyboards and go multi-headed aka "multi-seat". It'll more than do for stations where students are just using the web (to include mail) or working on papers, spreadsheets, or presentations.

http://www.riverdale.k12.or.us/linux/toaster/ Here is your GOD!!!

Too late. http://www.riverdale.k12.or.us/linux/toaster/

Our high school switched to Linux 3 years ago. We're using K12LTSP for 110 desktops throughout our school. I asked students who had been using Linux for the last three years what they thought about it. Here's a video of what they said. Just click on the "What the kids say..." link.

Motto of K12LTSP: It works. It's free. Duh... Guess which part is hard to explain. ;-)

I run Linux on my toaster. ... I said that as a joke, but to be sure it hadn't been done, I googled it. I was wrong.

I thought that someone building a Linux running toaster must have no life, but to be sure, I followed your link. I was right.

... I said that as a joke, but to be sure it hadn't been done, I googled it. I was wrong.

http://www.riverdale.k12.or.us/linux/toaster/

Wow man, you must really suck if your toaster can't run Linux. Even 2nd graders can do it. Being beat by a grade schooler must suck harder than seeing that Windows 95 turned 10 years old.

And yes, Cell runs Linux.

First thing I thought of when I read it was "Duh."

I run Linux on my toaster.

... I said that as a joke, but to be sure it hadn't been done, I googled it. I was wrong.

Maybe you mean the Riverdale School District in Portland, Oregon? Very impressive project, great guys.

--
Bush lied, many died.

Linux also ran on toasters first.

"Everyone is using it, and they don't realize how bad it is. And the Linux people will just stick with it and add to it rather than stepping back and saying, 'This is garbage and we should fix it.'"

So... much... detail!

"I think our code quality is higher, just because that's really a big focus for us," De Raadt says. "Linux has never been about quality. There are so many parts of the system that are just these cheap little hacks, and it happens to run." As for Linus Torvalds, who created Linux and oversees development, De Raadt says, "I don't know what his focus is at all anymore, but it isn't quality."

http://hs.riverdale.k12.or.us/maverick/?q=node/257

"Linux people do what they do because they hate Microsoft."

Umm... wtf? That's only a small number of zealots.

"They have the same rapid development cycle, which leads to crap,"

Not in m$'s defence, but m$'s last big OS release was four years ago.

The schools in Portland did this several years ago and it's working very well.

Check out the Linux Terminal Server Project, there are a few education LTSP projects linked in there (example), I think it would make management of the computer lab much more simplier and keep the overall hardware costs down.

Completely
Heterogenus
Architecturally
Open
System

.. On the other hand it makes good toast

Of course you can:
http://www.riverdale.k12.or.us/linux/toaster/

Here'a a digital photo course using the GIMP published under the Creative Commons license. You might find it interesting.

WinGIMP once carried a story about a high school digital photography class that made use of the GIMP to, among other things, fix basic errors.

Dude, that was so 2001. Do try to keep up

Sorry, the Linux world runs much faster than that. There's Linux in a Toaster already.

What do you mean by "LCD screen"? The fashionable end user wants a toaster, according to the post which you were replying to. Thus, if you want to be as fashionable as the average end user and still run linux on it, you'd probably want to get yourself one of these linux toasters.

Here we go for the toaster ! (Well... kinda...)

But linux has already done both of those! Get a new goal!

why can't schools do this?

I can't believe no one's given you the K-12Linux link yet. It is based on The Linux Terminal Server Project and is customized for school use.

The Linux Terminal Server Project would be a cheap base for your plan - one central high-spec server, with a load of low-spec workstations displaying the served (remote X) terminals.

This is exactly what I wanted to suggest. It's the best solution, especially in terms of maintainance work and fault-tolerance. Make sure to see this clip (RealPlayer unfortunately) to see how adding new computers to your lab would look like if you choose the LTSP way. Take a look at this links:

• LTSP -- Linux Terminal Server Project
• K12LTSP -- Linux Terminal Server Project in Schools
• K12OS -- Open Source in Schools
• K12Linux -- Linux in Schools Project
• GNU and Education
• SEUL/edu -- Simple End User Linux/Education
• KDE Education Project
• Debian Jr. Project

Good luck!

The Linux Terminal Server Project would be a cheap base for your plan - one central high-spec server, with a load of low-spec workstations displaying the served (remote X) terminals.

This is exactly what I wanted to suggest. It's the best solution, especially in terms of maintainance work and fault-tolerance. Make sure to see this clip (RealPlayer unfortunately) to see how adding new computers to your lab would look like if you choose the LTSP way. Take a look at this links:

• LTSP -- Linux Terminal Server Project
• K12LTSP -- Linux Terminal Server Project in Schools
• K12OS -- Open Source in Schools
• K12Linux -- Linux in Schools Project
• GNU and Education
• SEUL/edu -- Simple End User Linux/Education
• KDE Education Project
• Debian Jr. Project

Good luck!

The Linux Terminal Server Project would be a cheap base for your plan - one central high-spec server, with a load of low-spec workstations displaying the served (remote X) terminals.

Don't be fooled into thinking that the performance will equivelent to the server spec averaged over the workstation machines, the peak performance of the server will be available to each user. Having just one box to administor, and being able to lock it in a cupboard should simplify setup & administration.

At this point it can be argued that desktop-user=friendliness is more an issue of the distribution than the OS. Several user-friendly desktops have been developed. In at least one case, tests showed the system was easier to use for newbies than Windows.

The Multnomah Education Service District et al (including my old grade school)have been working on "K12Linux", a distribution designed (if I understand correctly) to be easy to install and use for non-techies in the K12 education environment. I read somewhere (can't find the specific article now) that in their tests students learned how to use the system in about a week, substantially sooner than with Windows.

If I read correctly, they are using a timesharing model with K12LTSP and using IceWM for its low server load, and OpenOffice.org for composing etc.

They may also be saving a lot of moolah, as MS wants them to pay licensing fees for all their computers, whether they have Windows on them or not. Read about this here.

Here is a quote from that page: " To give you an idea of the scale of the problem facing a large district like [Portland Public Schools], they have 25,000 PCs. A MS school agreement lease of software could cost the district over $1,000,000 a year. Just buying a virus package would cost $250,000 a year."

The new Riverdale High School is running entirely on Linux. Here is a draft case study for those interested. They run 35 diskless workstations assembled by parents and staff at a school computer work party!

Linux on a toaster exists. But what's cooler is toaster for Linux.

Linux on toasters? Yawn. It's been done. I don't want to hear about toasters on linux either.

Except for the choice of OS, looks pretty sweet. Any chance someone will get it to run Linux instead?

Jeez, concentrate on more important things running linux, like a toaster, for example.

[note: I did not create links to obvious sites like slashdot.org, kde.org, redhat.com, etc]

http://www.seul.org/edu/acpe2002.html

It's been a week since Eric and I went up to the ACPE (Association for Computer Professionals in Education) conference. We spoke with tech coordinators from 25 large Oregon and Washington school districts being audited by Microsoft for software licensing compliance. It's time for an update and some reflection.

All of the districts received a letter from Microsoft demanding a software audit. Steve Duin, a Portland columnist wrote about it in his column.

Before Steve's column schools were calling MS and asking for extensions. They reported that MS was less than friendly and responsive. After the column several things happened.

The Portland Public School switchboard was jammed for two days with calls from Linux users volunteering to come to PDX from all over the west coast to help with software migration.

MS was hit with many angry calls from all over the place. I can only imagine the content of those conversations. Having Duin's column posted on Slashdot.org certainly helped get the word out about what MS was doing.

The Slashdot post came out on Monday. Later that week most of the technology folks from OR and WA were heading to a conference on Thursday and Friday. MS agreed to come and present a special session on the audit and MS licensing on Thursday afternoon. Many of the impacted schools met the night before. There was much solidarity and a realization that if they all stuck together they would have more clout when dealing with MS. There was also a common understanding that this audit would cost districts money and time. Two things in short supply these days. Portland Public schools will devote two FTE to the audit. That's over $100k of money that could go to classrooms and teachers. Needless to say the relationship between these schools and Microsoft had been changed in a fundamental way. No one was talking about using software without paying for it. It's just that when they came face to face with the power an EULA gives MS, they saw things in a different light. MS software in schools was seen as a logistical and financial liability when compared with GPL licensed alternatives.

Now we get to alternatives. There was actually discussion of mass migrations to Linux. The interesting thing is that with current desktops and K12LTSP, it really is an option now. If MS was not willing to flex on demands, several of districts were ready to dump MS software.

On Thursday MS came in with a team to do some damage control. I've never seen anyone more worried or concerned. Quoting, "We never had any idea that there would be a reaction like this. Our two words for today are friendly and flexible." And they were... They said a lot about understanding the hardships schools face and how we were hurting for funding. They let us know that the audits were meant to be helpful and that this was not a BSA audit (yet...). They said that they would meet with schools one on one to extend deadlines and be flexible. I have to admit that they were just as they promised to be, friendly and flexible. They did a great job of disarming the most worried school folks and then hosted an open bar for the rest of the afternoon.

I underestimated the ability of MS to react so well and do such a good job. The most effective motivation for change is pain. MS did everything they could that day to make sure we would not feel any pain. ;-^)

Friday morning Eric and I did a session on using GPL software in schools. Eric did a good job on covering what's going on with the server end of things and I did a demonstration with our Linux Toaster. We like to stress that in many ways, software is now generic. You don't need to license or even worry about what kind of toaster oven you have at home. The same thing should be true of your word processor and email client.

I was still disturbed about the MS show we saw on Thursday until we started hearing more and more questions about migration. It seems like schools were taking the extra time given them by MS and using it to good advantage. We spent ALL of the Q&A time on migration paths to free software. Eric comes from the business world. I'm an educator. He pointed out to me that the WORST thing that could have come from all of this was a forced, overnight migration to Linux. Having time to do it right is much better. We've been talking with folks now for a couple of weeks and there is a lot happening.

I can't share everything that is in the works right now but there are two areas where we need to focus our efforts for schools in terms of migration:

Support and training... They need someone to call for help and they all need training. This is the #1 issue keeping schools from using free software. They just don't know how to do it and keep it running in a production environment. Anything we do to promote training will result in an increased use of Linux in schools. The good news in this area is that we've moved beyond the awareness level in many schools. The bottom line is that schools see others using Linux and saving money while providing superior service to classrooms. They want to go in that direction but they just don't know how.
End user, ease of use issues... The #2 fear facing schools is the thought that teachers will not be able to use the software. No one is worried about the kids. Eric is now working on a classroom kiosk version of K12Linux. We're hoping to produce a simplistic desktop with few options and just a few icons for basic applications. There are a bunch of desktop improvements that are part of RH 7.3. The Linux desktop is really coming along. Teachers however equate choices with complexity and that is something to fear. We think a classroom kiosk using KDE is something that might be useful in these instances.
More good news... I'm starting to hear from more major vendors who have been getting requests for Linux in school solutions. We're getting quotes from Micron, Dell and IBM for the 65 K12LTSP workstations we're about to purchase for a new high school. Before we had to build everything ourselves.

More to do... Our greatest resource is our local user group. We need to help schools and LUGs around the country make connections. Towards this end we're going to start promoting a July 4th. software freedom day. Sponsored by LUGs all over America, this event will bring together Unix/Linux experts and schools to establish local support connections for training and migration to GPL software.

I'll send out more on the software freedom day later. I hope you'll help get your LUGs and schools together.

Paul Nelson
Riverdale School

I also was at this conference and saw/heard the same things and interpreted them the same. My take on the outcome after the Microsoft panel is also the same. Microsoft finally realize that there were lines even they could not step over with retaliation.

A couple of good things should come from this.

First, Microsoft got its hands slapped by its very bread and butter. They were informed that they had stepped too far and society was not going to stand for it. Bear in mind, like Paul said, no one was in favor of pirating or using illegal software. But in an open environment as Schools, who can really regulate everything? In our district we have God control over our machines and dictate all hardware and network decisions, but even then have had to give some leeway on software installs for political issues. If Microsoft works with not against its clientele, there may actually be progress towards decreasing piracy.

Second, awareness is out about the ramifications of illegal software and its impact on schools. This should push Administrators towards policies forcing legal software use. Of course legal software costs money, unless its Open Source :-)

Third, much talk was made about alternatives. This talk will continue and spread as more districts/schools attempt to be more legal and avoid future confrontations with Microsoft. As more adopt Open Source and alternative software, more commercial companies will get involved and provide alternatives to Microsoft platforms.

This may be the final straw that pushed to evaluate their stance, to think that Microsoft may have just slit their throat, and in their own backyard. Of course it was humourus watching the Microsoft reps. kissing up by keeping the hosted bar open for hours after its scheduled shutdown. As if we will forget that quick....

Kevin Stiles
Technology Department
Paso School District

...but getting it to work on an X-Box would be even more so!

But seriously, I'm constantly amazed by the ideas people have of devices to run Linux on -- perhaps more so than the actual hacking required to do it.

Check out this Linux on a toaster... Crazy teenagers! :)

The kitchen thing has been done. Check out the LTSP "appliance".

www.riverdale.k12.or.us/linux/ good linux info there also

My father teaches CS at a small private school, and while they're not by any means struggling financially - they are somewhat apprehensive about Microsoft's new fervor for license enforcement.

They're seriously considering a move from their current student lab environment (Win 9x with Novell Netware) to a Linux thin client environment - what would basically be X terms. This has huge resource allocation advantages and because it's open source - the licensing restrictions are few if any.

This could literally save them millions over the next few years (The hardware life cycle for thin clients is considerable longer, and new server hardware, while expensive, is cheaper than buying several hundred new desktops every few years - not to mention say $100 dollars per system savings against XP Pro licenses)

That millions could keep them afloat in thin times, or could mean that they can provide scholarships to needy students.

See related: K12 Linux Project

This movement is gaining ground. Here's a ton of sites:

Start with Why Use Open Source Software In Schools to answer your (and your superior's!) questions. Note that Microsoft is trying to keep a stranglehold on this and their salesmen are playing dirty; but we as free software activists have one thing they can not have: integrity. Teach the truth about Open Source, explain that this is the true American way, show how we need to use it in education to teach kids the right way to do things (and to share with neighbors) to make a productive world, and we'll go at it. Academia can't afford to lose itself in proprietary software; as this site explains, with free software we've got a chance for a blossoming in academia.

The K12 Linux in Schools Project

A good example is St. John's School in the UK (attention, USA education boards!)

Open Source and Education tells you how to do it, what you need to know.

Linux in Higher Education: Open Source, Open Minds, Social Justice is an important article in Linux Journal about this.

K12 Linux Terminal Server Project for Schools is just one of the things you can do.

K-12 Linux, another good site about this.

A good technical primer on Linux in Education

If you use free software in schools you will also need free documentation and training materials. Here is a list of the best of it.

(Pls mod this up guys, I'm posting anon...)

Microsoft is a monopoly. Legally speaking they are not only a monopoly, they are abusing that status. Schools are funded by the government. Punishing Microsoft by extending their monopoly further is a bad idea.

Pushing a government funded institution into helping break that monopoly is a good idea.

As far as whether the schools would install it themselves if they wanted to, that option doesn't even show up on their radar 99.99% of the time. That is the power of a monopoly.

I've also seen a lot of comments about how there isn't any educational software fo linux. To that I call bullshit. Given any subject there is something out there that some geek has whipped together, and it may not be produced by Mattel or Disney, but Linux is a much better tool for actually instilling the ability to learn than Windows.

I think this is a great publicity stunt by RedHat, and it won't go anywhere, but I'd love to see Linux in more schools. Yes I said more. There are quite a few schools that are already using it. do a google search for 'Linux education schools'

some useful(Karma Whoring) links:
http://www.seul.org/edu/
http://www.riverdale.k12.or.us/linux/
http://scnc.holt.k12.mi.us/techplan/index.html

I agree with what you said, Jon, but some people are moving to Linux nevertheless. It's good to focus, not on what cannot be done now, but on what CAN be done.

Check out this Linux success story: The "semi-official" distribution of the K12Linux Project. Here is a quote from that site:

"The Multnomah Education Service District has successfully moved most of it's core network services to Linux. Linux powers dns, dhcp, mail relays, proxy servers, web filters, and directory services for the 45,000 administrators, teachers, and students within our agency and the school districts we support . For our agency and a couple of our districts, Linux powers the web, mail, ftp, and file servers. Tickled with our success, we have started work on putting Linux workstations in the classroom. More on that to come!" [my emphasis]

Check out this site about putting Linux workstations in the classroom:

K-12Linux Project.

Here is a quote:

"We have FREE Xeon and Celeron processors to give to schools participating in STRUT and K12LTSP. See the applications page for more information."


U.S. government corruption: What should be the Response to Violence?

One game I have always wanted to see an open version of is Aerobiz

It's great when we see articles on Linux in Schools but I wish they would at least get the links right:

http://www.riverdale.k12.or.us/linux/index.html >> Main Linux in Schools project site, links on using Linux as a server for schools. Many examples and how-to's.

http://www.k12ltsp.org/ >> K12 Linux Terminal Server Project - 20 minute install, RH7.1 based terminal server with links to $200 clients. Very cool!

http://www.ofset.org/ >> Free Software in Education and Teaching - Some good work with software for schools happening here...

http://www.k12ltsp.org/educational_software.html >> Thoughts on educational software...

Bottom Line... We use Linux in our schools because it works well for what we need to do. It's free and support from the Linux community is the best. We're always happy to answer questions. ;-) Paul

The answer to this problem is simple. Schools need to dump the nasty old Microsoft software and head on over to: http://www.riverdale.k12.or.us/linux/

Get involved, get your LUG involved.

Celebrating the release of version 1.0 this last July, 4th. let me impersonate a car-dealer:

Do you want a computer-lab in your school?

Do you need 100% uptime?

Do you want to have a maintenance-free environment?

Do you want to teach, not re-install Windows?

... but you do not want to spend $20,000 and need crash-less computers?

Well, we have a solution. The K-12LTSP v.1.0 project

For about $6,000 (less if you already have "old" computers), you can set-up a lab with e-mail, browsers, office suites, image programs...

On Linux, of course.

Newsforge article

K12LTSP home page

Work with Legacy equipment

... and a " girl magnet " as stated on their site:

Salut and education,

Exactly. And I recall making this comment which still stands with this article, and any others promising that I can run Linux on my watch, PDA, car stereo, toaster, etc. I'm not knocking the wholesome goodness that is Linux, I just don't feel the need to run it on every electronic device I own.

That Ben Affleck's character has just returned from Europe having fought in the Battle of Britain and incarceration in a prisoner of war camp is completely laughable

There were, actually, some pilots from other countries than Britain who fought in the Battle of Britain; for example, some Polish and Canadians actually managed to get quite a good reputation. However, the bit about incarceration in POW camps is quite laughable indeed... However, it somehow had to be included for the sake of war athmosphere, it seems.

U-571 is an absolute joke: American sailor's boarding a German U-boat to capture a Enigma cypher machine is how Hollywood tells the story. History, on the other hand, tells us that the first Enigma was captured by the British before the US even entered the war!

One should add that the best movie about German submarine warfare is still the classic Das Boot (see other review with different trailers). The submarines were actually one of Germany's most technologically advanced and most terrifying weapons, especially since they did see some large scale use; on the other hand, more than 90% of German submariners did not return from the War.

Can you imagine a Beowulf clister of these

I'd like to applaud your work and efforts to get this a viable solution in your schools. This took, I'm sure, a lot of planning and acting on great coordination, and I'd even like to have this in my home!

If I could make one request - It would be that I'd like to see is a list of all of the 'educational' software included. I did read the part regarding Collaboration, Communication, Analysis, and Creativity software on the http://www.riverdale.k12.or.us/linux/educational_s oftware.html web page and can imagine what is included, but a list of the exact software per workstation would just be great.

Keep up the good work, and congratulations on getting this noble project running.

Or bury it in a mountain, all 5KG per plant per year, no problem.

Whats Yucca going to cost? 54 billion (!) dollar? See: http://www.nirs.org/factsheets/radwastegermany.htm l

Have you seen pictures, of, for example Gorleben (sorry, I didn't find some on the web). The salt dome is huge.
Also, the 5 kg for 21 plants in Germany is the reason to buy 4653t capacity from COGEMA and 887t from BNFL? See: http://hs.riverdale.k12.or.us/~matiash/paises.htm .

Both governments and many companies have looked for a solution to this problem for at least 20 years now and you think there is a trivial solution?
I have an idea: Go to the American government, take the waste, chuck the few kgs into an old mine shaft, take 25 billion $ for it, and the government (or whoever is paying) has saved over 25 billion $.

Interestingly enough, right now Wired has an article about this topic running right now called "Open Source Opens Education", which mentions the Linux In Schools Project. The article gives several examples of high schools and middle schools that have made the move to Linux, and outlines several reasons for doing so (cost, stability, etc). There are also some good pointers to other sites.