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Largo Loving Linux
A little over a year ago, dot.kde.org and Newsforge did stories on the Linux-based systems being used in Largo, FL to run the city government. Roblimo went down there, drank their coffee, and wrote a follow-up piece which might be, but wasn't, entitled "How to be a sysadmin whose pager doesn't go off". (Newsforge is part of OSDN.)
I might consider moving there someday :)
Everything backed up... neat stacks of CAT5... no emergencies... no rushing...
Are we quite sure these guys are HUMAN sysadmins, not evil intergalactic sysadmins from Myronacia here to lure us all into their evil plot of low-stress jobs and a life of being eaten?
best web host ever
What does Hayasaka think of it.
"My God...It's full of ads!" -Fry, about the Internet, Futurama
Considering that 40 out of the 50 U.S. states are experience severe budget shortfalls, a good way to get more bang for the buck is to consider switching to open sourced software. You have:
1) Front-end savings on licensing.(perhaps offset by re-training costs)
2) Savings on future licensing
3) Less tech support headaches and consequently less staffing requirements.
As the article illustrates, spending 1.3% off a municipal budget vs. 3% (or 4%) is a substantial savings. Bring that up to the state level and you are talking tens to hundreds of millions.
I won't even start talking about the Feds...
I thought we were against digitized cops with access to all our private data.
Even the Microsoft people couldn't refute the fact that Largo's current setup uses far less hardware and is far easier to administer and physically maintain than an equivalent Windows-based system.
Yay for Linux!
I also was impressed that they spend less than half the money other towns do on their IT. Of course, from the sysadmin POV that's bad as it means they aren't paid much. But that's the price of freedom, I guess.
Seriously, good to see stuff like this. And in Florida of all places!
You are not the customer.
If i'm reading this right, the IT department of Largo is actually thinking about ways to save the taxpayers money instead of ways to spend it... If the rest of the country operated in such a fashion maybe we could pay our teachers better. Its interesting that they chose a thin linux client model, that seems to be the growing trend with IT departments (and they said linux was dying). Im pleasantly surprised that they managed to resist microsoft's pressure, as im sure they would have had nothing but issues with the CeMeNT model, and I think ill stop now because im rambling ;)
Then we looked at the crime rates for Central Florida. It's not all Disneyworld--in fact it's #1 and #2 in several categories for crime per capita.
There's a lot of poverty there, and poverty means crime (I'm not sure which one causes which.) Lots of people with their meth labs in their trailers, etc. Lots of drug runners coming through.
Look at this table. Each state has "Rate per 100,000 inhabitants" and you'll see what I mean. We decided to stay in Northern California, despite the 9.5% state income tax because the crime rate is much lower. And I don't care that my state government doesn't do Linux. I just care that 90% of my neighbors aren't on welfare, making meth, or both.
Best Buy can have you arrested
I'm glad a municipality has caught onto hitting eBay for quality used equipment, as Largo did according to the article. OSS, plus cheaper (and SLIGHTLY) older equipment can add up to huge cost savings. Hell, any .com that dies probably has enough server and networking hardware to outfit any small company. Municipalities need to make it easier for their IT managers to purchase items used (like from eBay) and quit limiting themsleves to purchasing contracts.
Roblimo went down there, drank their coffee, and wrote a follow-up piece...
Whatever.
mstyne: real name, no gimmicks
I thought we were against digitized cops with access to all our private data.
Well, digitized cops are bad, but at least they're not proprietary digitized cops.....This is Slashdot. Duh.
Karma: Not Particularly Funny.
for Debian Does Dallas!
Best Buy can have you arrested
They use the strengths of *nix, and this is just a good example of how good it can work.
I'm sure they have quality people behind this project, and not some pimple-faced 19 year old MCSE who plays Unreal 2003 when he's not making fun of his 'luser' co-workers.
you're quoting a focus group from 1999? do you know what year this is?
web site: http://www.ddmcd.com
Its worth noting that they are using NCD x-terminals. While buying used NCD equipment works well if you've already invested in their hardware, if you are setting up equipment from scratch, it is not an effective solution. NCD does not provide their drivers for download, and charges a fairly hefty amount of money for them, so if you want to set up x-terms at home, or at a small buisness, buy something else, unless you are already familiar with this.
Quite a few people seem to have picked these things up after the last article, not realizing how much of a pain it would be to get them running
There's nothing like a real networking operating system, with a robust TCP/IP stack and an efficient kernel to reduce costs...
then again my dad is the head tech for a county court system in California and he only buys contract boxes with Windows, all the while making fun of my Linux home network...
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
I'm the network admin for a city govt in Texas and we're looking *really close* at migrating all our NT servers and as many clients as possible to Linux. Our IT dept budget is only one half of one percent of the city's total municipal budget anyway so we're accustomed to having to get by on a shoestring budget. We were never given funding to upgrade (sic) from NT4 to W2K on the server side anyway. The only thing that's kept us from being able to move all our filesharing to Linux+Samba has been the lack of adequate backup software that can work with our big tape jukebox and backup open files and handle all the required scheduling and notification(like Veritas Backup Exec is doing for us)... and lack of an antivirus package that can scan files on the fly as they pass in and out thru Samba (like NAI's Netshield has been doing for us).
forgive me, becuase I'm not too up on the details of thin-client-hood (my assumptions are that its a lot like a mainframe, or that unix system that all the undergrads would use for their mail and programs. 5000 kids at once bringing a Challenge L to its knees...)
and its nice that they are careful and have a redundant system.
But I'm interested in their worst case scenario plans (more than just saying "well, our systems are redundant!") and what is the worst disaster they have had to deal with.
Sure, its cool that they have localized where all the problems are going to be (the servers) but when do they predict the "the network is too slow!" calls will start coming in?
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
This sound's great and all, and I am all for it, but it seems that one would need some pretty intellegent/knowledgable/creative IT's to get this running. For instance, using a thin client for the tablet PC. I could be wrong here, I hope I am.
This page was generated by a Barrel of Circus Midgets, and that is the way I like it!!!
The penguin logo is your "Happy Face" and is one of the few marketing things done right so far with Linux. It gives the public a symbol and a protagonist. It personifies the OS (OK, it "Penguisonifies" the OS if you want to get technical).
The Michelin Man, Ronald McDonald, The Shell Answer Man and others all serve the same purpose for their brands. Heck, for a while Charlie Chaplin served that role for IBM.
The key is not to eliminate the logo, but to exploit it appropriately.
Your other points are well taken, though.
the major advances in civilization are processes which all but wreck the societies in which they occur - A.N. White
"Don't forget, Harold isn't getting paid by anyone except Largo taxpayers, and his job is to keep their IT expenses as low as he can while providing ever-better IT services to the city employees who use them to do their jobs. In light of this, Harold's comparative cost figures are probably at least as trustworthy as anyone's -- and lots more trustworthy than some."
Its good to finally see a TCO that is about as unbiased as you can get. Other than this I've not yet to see a TCO (either proclaiming Linux or Windows) that isn't slanted in some way to paid for by a OS supplier.
Having said that, the 1.3% vs. 3% IT budget cost reduction is not all because of linux. All of that dirt cheap hardward adds up. I'm sure their bottom sure would still be significantly less than 3% even if they did use windows. Spending a couple dollars on a dumb terminal equals hugh hardware savings.
I'd say linux is just icing on the cake, (and probably leads to more silent beepers and a couple less admins). Still, remember that this is a total implementation comparision between municipalities, not purely Windows vs. Linux.
Why, o why must the sky fall when I've learned to fly?
Yes, they do.
mstyne: real name, no gimmicks
Like, even gayer than Linux developers.
GAY.
Okay..I've found the Linux nirvana.n a word: Wirex. Their Immunix server appliance software is the easiest server to set up I've ever seen. Yes I know that you geeks out there will look upon it with disdain, but the bottom line is that Joe Sixpack can figure how to configure this one! And yes, I know this is a shameless plug (and no, I have nothing to do with Wirex) but when you find something this good, you just gotta share it.
All of the sudden the city of Largo notices NCD thin clients jumped up in price on ebay... surely couldn't be slashdotting ebay now? could we?
I also was impressed that they spend less than half the money other towns do on their IT. Of course, from the sysadmin POV that's bad as it means they aren't paid much. But that's the price of freedom, I guess.
One of the real plusses of being UNIX savvy in general, and GNU/Linux/free software/open source savvy in particular, is that one actually often earns a better living than their Microsoftoid equivelents. Why? Because paying one knowledgable person who, in a GNU/Linux, *BSD, or *NIX shop can do the work that requires three or four MSCE's (assuming a modicum of competence on the MSCE's part, an assumption that is, as many here have pointed out repeatedly, is not one that is safe to make), 1.5 - 2 times the salary still translates into a tremendous human resources savings, and brings with it the added benefits of expertise, lower turnover, and attention to detail (and research) pointed out in this article.
If you are saving money because your staffing requirements are lower (in raw numbers of bodies), your licensing costs are lower, and your TCO costs are lower (all nearly always true with GNU/Linux or FreeBSD vs. Microsoft), you can pay a premium for really good people and have the benefits that brings along with tremendous savings.
Which is great for everyone, except shoddy admins who probably should find another line of work anyway. It is certainly great for those of us who know what we are doing and take pride in doing quality work for our clients/employers, and like to be rewarded in kind.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Doing damage to Linux's image is some "laconic, dour nothern European. Not known for his sense of humor..."
I'm not sure who this is, but thank heaven we've got Linus to make up for him! That man's sense of humour is one of his most outstanding traits.
-Gareth
Give them what they want and nobody gets hurt? I've never actually heard anyone seriously propose that as a system of government before.
Shit, those sound like good reasons to move to Florida. Just tell me there are easy/cheap women there and I am sold.
Da, in Soviet Russia, thin client runs YOU!
Da, in Soviet Russia, server serves YOU!
This is an open source comment, the following is the source code:
Why, o why must the sky fall when I've learned to fly?
I read this two weeks ago on a classic troll website. The website is made up of nothing but trolls and this one was listed.
_ __ _
Well crafted Trolls I actually do not mind as long as they are humorous and well-written.
_______________________________________________
ACK
I wonder if it would kill you if we all synchronized using Swatch beats and imagined ourselves doing a pelvis thrust really hard and directed it at you. Like as we all mentally do that pelvis thrust, the psychic force just comes out of all of us and its combined power just flattens you and crushes your lungs.
Sure let's consolidate linux into a massive corporate environment with one standard and a cool dot-com name that reminds people of all the money they lost in the market. Then charge them a ton for the product in order to pay an idiot $4000/day to steal Nike's and Coca-Cola's logo and create a super logo that transcends culture and religion, then pay Nike and Coca-Cola huge settlements for copyright infringement. Since we're now profit driven, and we have the lawyers and an insatiatable thirst for money and killing competition, let's make sure that nobody attempts to improve our product all while cost cutting in the programming department to improve profits because now Joe Sixpack is screwed into staying with us and can't do anything about the fact that our latest software puts his SS# and credit profile on creditscam.com, although he hasn't figured it out yet because we don't release our security flaws until they're beaten out of us, and his browser hasn't worked since the last "update". Don't worry, with the price we charge we could have some of the most powerful lobbyists in the world pushing politicians to protect us. I think I have the perfect cool dot-com name: Is anyone using Microsoft? It kind of rolls off the tongue nicely. This guy may charge $4000/day, but it's Monday and he's not working. My guess is he hasn't worked since the cool sounding Dot-Coms all shut down because they wasted their money on his service as he talks about focus groups from the late 90s. Or maybe he just stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.
Using free software is yet another way by which the socialist collectivists can take advantage of the labor of the capable producers. There is nothing to cheer about when a government uses free software.
The people who write free that software have jobs too, and they have to pay taxes. Using someone's free program is one thing, but doing that while stealing a portion of his earnings, that is disgusting.
I'd recommend Cyrus IMAP with Postfix SMTP, run both in SSL (with SMTP AUTH) and point it all to an OpenLDAP backend. Put phpgroupware in for web-based access. In fact, everything you do should be using LDAP, preferably LDAP over SSL, since once you go LDAP you start seeing neat possibilities open up when it comes to offering single username & password everywhere..
If compatibility with Outlook is not an issue, this is the easiest and thriftiest way to get groupware functionality.
5) We have focus groups. They're called Usenet, web forums, mailing lists, and IRC.
Yeah, you're "focusing" on only the comments of people technically astute enough to use newsgroups and IRC. Those people could use your product to begin with. You need to focus on getting the feedback of people that don't know how to use NNTP and don't know that IRC even exists.
At this year's OSCON, everyone was saying that it is time for OS proponents to take a more active voice in government. I have heard, and believe, that local governments actually have a larger impact on our day-to-day lives than state and national government, so that is a good place to start.
I just forwarded the article to my local city government. It took only 1 minute.
Now, I will not lower the tone of the debate by naming names. I will give a few brief profiles and community members will know who I am talking about.
Well, then, you're basically naming names.
Well gimp dosent need gnome and Kroupware will kick devolutions ass!
Sorry, but I still laugh every time I see the word Kroupware. What were they thinking? It certainly looks like those previous denials that the name would stick are false.
Kroupware.. Dear Kod.
So, did anyone else get a Microsoft ad in the Newsforge add space embedded in the article?
It's a conspiracy, I tell you!
IBM had PL/1, with syntax worse than JOSS,
And everywhere the language went, it was a total loss...
appoint itself a "Marketing Spokesperson".
WTF do you think all the distros do?
The Penguin logo MUST go ASAP.
Ah, yes. Goofy. Much like an apple with a bite out of it, or somesuch. Yes, I'm sure there are tons of IT people turning down Linux because they don't like the logo.
Downplay RMS, Linus, ESR, etc.
When a big IT department wants to buy Linux, they talk to Red Hat, not to the Linux Kernel Mailing List. This is not an issue.
DirectX
Oh, come on. I *know* you know about WINE.
Finally FOCUS GROUPS
Golly gee, that would be what Sun was doing with GNOME, wouldn't it? Or *any* of the big vendors do. Hmm...
May we never see th
I live in Belle Air Beach, which is about 5 min away from largo.... Weather is nice actually, rainy today though.... I moved here from New Mexico though so I guess any weather is better than New Mexico weather.... Good to see that they are using linux... Anyone know if Roblimo is still in town... Could go for a starbucks with him... :)
Interesting post and a good perspective. I would like to add my 2c:
2) The Penguin logo MUST go ASAP.
I am not sure about this. Maybe he needs to be restyled or something, but not done away with completely. Taking away Tux is like taking away the Apple logo. There is an association there, like it or not.
4) Direct X - A MAJOR stumbling block on Linux's road to world domination is the lack of Direct X support for Linux
There is such a thing. It is known an LibSDL. There are probably others, but this is the one that I know the best.
Now to some other issues:
Part of the problem is a culture clash and there are too many hard-liners on both side of the fence. What we need is a way to bring both sides together, in a way that suits both parties, rather than make them feel that they are giving in. People in marketing depend on the people doing the research and people in research depend on the people in marketing. Until both parties realise that, they each depend on each other, we aren't going to get far.
The anti-communist attitude is very American and illustrates a fear of an alternative approach to things. You can be socialist with out being a communist. Many contries in the world, such as European countries, successfully balance a social and commerical agenda.
Linux was original targeted as a server solution and does it does a good job there. I think part of the problem is that we are asking too much from Linux. We shouldn't be going out and expecting everyone to be using Linux. Rather we should be concentrating on making a great product and let those who wish come when they want. We can't be all things to all people and this is the most important lesson.
The best marketing are case studies. Both good ones and bad ones and evaluating why things worked and why things didn't work. Its also good for people developing with Linux to know why things went wrong and address the issues.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
Moderators: Parent post is not a troll. I ask you, would a troll go to all the trouble of organizing focus groups?
There is no way some troll would waste their time gathering 100's of people to get their honest assessment of the state of computing. A troll typically fabericates their facts and colors the truth. They certainly do not run robust, scientific, double-blind and industry standard focus groups.
Quite simply, it is too time consuming and a troll by definition does not have time to waste.
It's still worth it -- look at their savings -- that's including their salary. If you pay more to get one knowledgeable IT person and he saves you tons on software and hardware...that's a pretty good investment.
May we never see th
"I tried Linux but it was too hard for me to install, then that guy flamed me on the newsgroups"
Heh... reading the replies to this post made me think back to this line.
Primarily MS for the NOS, but there are SuSE Linux servers in use doing various things in more than one city department.
The Penguin logo MUST go ASAP.
What?! That's your ronald mcdonald happy face right there!
...that he is being a moron.
I was actually down there a few months ago, and I can say from a first had look at the place, that it's a very nice and neat setup. Even if you never worked on a thin client their setup was fast, easy and almost no learning curve. And being a somewhat of a "Windows guy" I have to admit that Linux is a viable choice for any organization.
In case anyone was doubtful over whether this post should get a -1 troll or not, i did a google search for:
"Here are a few example comments from a focus group session from Q3 1999 in response to a question about their attitudes to Linux and open source software"
A complete phrase like this should be unique if this article were original. It is not. There is an archive of the troll here, which was originally posted to slashdot on 6/25/2000:
http://www.spiralx.co.uk/texts/troll2.html
Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
Hmmm. Usually your ilk post something like "Mac == gay"
I guess to some Windows users, everyone is gay.
Dave says "We're not anti-Microsoft."
That ruined the entire article, how did this get posted?
I've got to stop reading the articles before I post.
After having worked for a highschool IT dept for 3 years, and having dealt with a univsersity IT dept for 2 years, i have to ask: why can't schools do this?
My highschool regularly got grants for buying hardware, and would then proceed to spend $2000 per windows workstation, not including software (they didn't license until they got yelled at by M$). But, they wouldn't hire more then 1 IT guy for 250 workstations, so nothing ever worked.
Same at my university. Aside from all the departmental and faculty machines (~4500), there are about 1500 open-area machines for students. These are a mix of unix thin-clients running solaris, and wintel machines, most of which are outdated. They insist upon buying new NCD/Sun thin-clients, running solaris, or buying new Wintel machines running win2k. Yet these machines cost them $1500-$2000 a piece! And all the old unix clinets (~800) running solaris are super slow (5+ minutes to log in!). Explain to me why a city, with offices here,there, and everywhere, manages to run a linux-based thin-client network, while a university with a huge IT budget runs one that's too slow to use!
Considering the non-existant cost of "outdated" hardware in the marketplace, people would figure out that to run an office suite, web browser, and email, all you need is a P150!!!
-Michael Roy Some people are like Slinkies. Not really useful, but you can't help smiling when you see one tumble down
(Newsforge is part of OSDN.)
;-)
And hence, receives a discounted rate for advertisting on the homepage!
You forgot to mention the RedHat logo. Now there's a sinister, shady character if I ever saw one. How would you like to have him poking around inside your network at 3am?
If your corp or govt is wasting money by using
msft can we sue or do recalls.
Clearly it is gross negligence.
Have you actually tried to do this? LDAP is a nifty idea on paper, but implementing it is a royal waste of time, when a normal rdbms will do just fine. And believe me, I was on my way to the Utopia you described until I went to implement it.
True, the namespace has a lot of potential, and some apps support it quite well. But the schema and lack of tools put LDAP on my blacklist until further notice, at least for a small co'.
As for easiest and thriftiest groupware impl using the protocols you mentioned, try James (jakarta.apache.org) instead. It implements IMAP, SMTP and NNTP. And if you really are a glutten for punishment, it has an LDAP connector as well.
Plus there are PAM solutions which will use a database. These, I have not tried (yet).
You are checking your backups, aren't you?
make the choice to switch to thin clients attractive.
The model of thin client they are using only uses 19-25 watts of power. Compared to a standard PC which uses at least 150 watts, that is a huge power savings. True, the monitor uses about half the power, but that can be miminized if you also switch to a lcd.
Concerning the marketing of open source, I would like to add to your list of Things That Need to Happen this simple concept: it's the job of all Open Source advocates, every one of us, to be sensitive to the needs of the users, to listen to them carefully, and to address their needs even when we may not agree with them. Too often the sys admin or consultant begins the relationship by trying to dictate what's going to be done. (This is a habit of both the open source and Closed Source worlds, but the dictator meets less resistance when he pushes something familiar like Microsoft.)
So my point is this: when you advocate Open Source, you personally are the face of the movement. Start not by talking, but by listening. Meet challenges not with rules and force, but with caring and discussion, you'll have a much better chance of winning your users over to our side.
-miko
Miko O'Sullivan
Roblimo takes a "business trip" to FL in December to write a "story." Sure seems like a nice way to get a few days in the FL sun written off as a business expense...
Perhaps I missed it, but what software is serving to all of those thin clients? Tarantella? I'd love to read about more details about what's happening on the server side of things.
Anyone got a link that really gets into detail on the server side?
jonathan
... is to maintain a residence in Florida and live down there in the sun for much of the year, which is what Roblimo does.
;)
Of course, if he lived in the Dakotas, he'd probably write the same story more for the reason you're suggesting
FL: low taxes, high sun, all the swampland you can eat.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
Yeah, the price will rise to $500 or whatever the current price is... but then it will drop because the supply will rise once they realize that everyone wants to switch.
You are so very right that Linux has no flashy high dollar marketing suit at the forefront of it's push for popularity. I'd like to respectfully introduce you to a concept that you may just not have thought about yet. That is, most people that use/build/contribute to Linux really don't care if Joe SixPack uses Linux or not. People should use whatever OS they feel will work the best for them regardless of the opinion of others. Yes, I would like to have more attention from the game and app companies, and more Linux users would certainly help there. But like all the other Linux users that I know, I LIKE the fact that I can select an OS on it's merits instead of being lured in by the juvenile happy-mealish antics of the folks that brought us 'features' like an animated paper clip. Also, if you hadn't noticed yet, commercial development for Linux has been picking up at a quite nice clip lately, and it seems to be increasing exponentially. We're working on the games.......
As far as your concerns about the marketability of the three gurus that are at the forefront of open source today, these folks are responsible for the tools that millions of people use day in and day out. They BUILT them. I think it would be more than a little disrespectful to try and take away things that they have dedicated their lives to building and try to continue on with the products of their blood sweat and tears without giving them their proper respect. You can dislike these guys all you want (I personally have serious issues's with some of RMS's opinions) but you cannot disrespect any of them.....especially if you are posting ANONYMOUSLY.
DirectX??? I'm not really sure, but if you're so sure that it's needed step up and build it - this is how things are done with open source. I imagine that you might have a bit of a legal battle on your hands though, as I think that this is technology owned by Microsoft (not sure though - comments anyone?).
Focus groups. I agree with you on this one, at least partially. It would be supremely beneficial to most open source efforts if more usability testing was done by the largest group of people that could be managed. It would be helpful to have an extension to Sourceforge for testing like this, as long as it was up to the individual project leaders as to whether or not they actually want to go through with the effort of using it. Remember that these folks are building these projects on their time, and the extent of the impact that you can have on their projects is to suggest and advise, not to dictate.
In closing I feel that I should take this up a level and acknowledge that I am glad that you are trying to offer insight on how to improve things for open source. You are correct in your statements that not much has been done to promote the public image of Linux to the masses. Hopefully you will continue to read /. to keep abreast of what is going on here. I also wish to leave you with one final thought that might help you to understand a bit more of what I believe is the mindset of the average open source fan:
We do not want to build another Microsoft.
The world already has one of those.
We like the open source projects that we use because they offer a way of doing things that works better for us, with more flexibility and choice. And, (pay attention here, this part is important) if we are unsatisfied with the way things work out of the box, we can actually open up the hood and do something about it.
Thanks for your insights, it's good to hear from all sides. Next time however I suggest that you may be better served to refrain from posting anonymously - it tends to knock a few credibility points off by default.
\/\/oobie
You've got an insightful point, but I still must disagree. Keep in mind that Microsoft builds planned obselescence into their systems, so most MS shops need to upgrade anyway. I work for the Rescue Mission of Roanoke, and as you can imagine we're not a rich organization. We desperately need to upgrade our old systems, and Linux is simply the cheaper and more cost-effective way to do it.
Miko O'Sullivan
The Penguin logo MUST go ASAP:
WRONG! This is the sort of distinct image Linux needs. I know many people with little computer knowledge who can easily point out Linux information on the net by seeing that nifty little penguin. Although it may not seem professional, why must things have a super-slick advertisement to be noticed and remembered?
4) Direct X - A MAJOR stumbling block on Linux's road to world domination is the lack of Direct X support for Linux:
DirectX isn't the only API's being used to create games. If the developer uses OpenGL, they can easily port their games to Linux using Mesa (an opengl clone). Plus Creative Labs/Loki released OpenAL a 3D Sound Library nearly on par with DirectSound/3D. If you use those two libraries you can have your game work in Win32, MacOS and Linux with minor changes needed for initialiazation. It's the Lazy developers who are the issues, not the OS. Games can be made for many OS's but is it worth the time/money to make them is the bigger question?
If Windows controls 95% of the computer desktop market, it could be hard to persuade the developers to move to Linux, especially when many advocates want things Free/OSS. However on the other hand, it does present a unique business opportunity for the right company to make money.
My personal philosophy is to make good software, have a cheap price, and give lots of features. Making software OSS is in the eyes the beholder. I don't believe in crippling copyrights, but fair ones for both sides. It is unfortunate that mega-corps don't see things this way.
Troll=6?? Is today Hopeless-Hax0r-Kid moderator day or what? (linux r00lz! Down with $uit!) This guy is spot on. Informative and insightful. The focus group info is no joke. As long as the Linux community has such disdain for the business community (Troll=6!?) Microsoft has nothing to worry about.
How about we be adults and mod the parent post up instead of giving him the troll raspberries?
Side note: I do think the penguin could be the Linux "happy face" mascot, but a sleek professional looking logo is definitely needed as well.
Operator, give me the number for 911!
The article mentioned this almost as an aside, but as someone who works in government, the ability of these guys to purchase secondhand from ebay is truly revolutionary.
Hell, I can't even buy reconditioned palms with manufacturer warranty direct from palm - not only is palm not an "approved vendor" for purchasing palms from (go figure..), but our purchasing policies explicitly ban reconditioned or secondhand items. As for *ebay*..
Well done to Largo for giving these guys the ability to use a little flexibility and common sense.
How about Slashdot interview the IT shop in Largo?
Seriously, that's some funny s#it.
So Micky Mouse is used for microsoft?
aka -- what happens when Harold get's hit by a bus? Is everything documented? Are all procedures pick-up-able by a fresh body in the position?
This could be a beautiful system or a multi-million dollar bill waiting to happen for the City -- it's not a Linux issue or a MS issue it's a systems issue in general. More than 50% of the cost of a truly functional system are spent in making it understandable, reliable and usable. How much time/money has Largo spent on this?
Elwood:
Man I haven't been pulled over in six months. I bet those cops have got SCMODS.
Jake:
SCMODS?
Elwood:
State, County, Municipal, Offender, Data, System.
The two officers return to Jake and Elwood's car
Officer Daniel:
Elwood we show your license currently under suspension. Step out of the car please.
Not sure I understand why posting it twice makes it a troll? Maybe it needs to be posted and re-posted until the message gets through / isn't modded down to hell?
Or
Maybe I'm missing something.
Operator, give me the number for 911!
Read above and see that this is in fact a troll that was posted to Slashdot in 2000.
I think it's wonderful Largo is able to work with this model. Many corporations still use it in specific instances. I don't see it as revolutionary.
I would be worried somewhat if I was a Largo police officer and I had a thin client in my car that used a wirless service. This is pushing it. Maybe if I had redundant wirless coverage on multiple frequencies I'd feel less vulnerable. But to me, the police car is exactly the type of environment where you want an intelligent heavier client. One that can cache the last couple of inbound messages, cache the last lookup you did on a license plate, maybe also proactively download other information based on the information you searched for, so that in the event of an outage, you aren't s.o.l.
I found this quote unusual too:
This doesn't seem accurate in the least bit. I'm not sure why they simply don't say "look, it was about money". Because that I could believe.
Their network is run off two boxes, each dual-processor. One a ML370 and another a ML350. One's a dual 933 the other a dual 1ghz.
Now, using these boxes and assuming a gig of RAM at least (not specified in article), Terminal services or Citrix could have easily services 150-250 users on _each_ box. Granted, it depends on what they are doing (so called, light, medium, or heavy users).
I'm not saying Terminal Services, or Citrix would have been better. I'm glad their operations run as smoothly as they do. I just wish people would be honest and simply say "yeah, of course it was about the licensing fees". The reason they probably are not saying this, is I bet MS offered them free licenses to get them to switch, and they don't want their City Council hearing they could have had it all for free, but opted not to in a "fuck u" gesture to MS....
-malakai
-Malakai
A Dragon Lives in my Garage
No, I believe he means "last millennium".
So have the people who work for Largo started to switch to Linux at home?
My friend got 20 of these when Montgomery Wards closed down - I think they're all NCD 200s. I've played with one, and I've seen an NCD-Linux HOWTO, but the HOWTO says that there is an X-Windows menu entry (along with Citrix ICA), but I see no such item.
How do I get X-Windows support enabled for a stand-alone NCD?
Perhaps you should look closely at the URL. And other pages on that site, such as:
/. troll HOWTO
The
Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
I always browse slashdot at +2 in order to avoid lesser comments, but sometimes a comment like the parent to this post gets modded up to +4 for no apparent reason. Slashdot really needs a moderation reason named "correcting". This way poster the parent post can get his well earned karma, but I can avoid having to read the post. I want: "funny" -5, "correcting" -5 "redundant" -5, "off topic" -5, "Troll" -1
This article states that Largo is getting lower costs because they used Linux instead of Windows. Marketing FUD. The article clearly states that they've been purchasing their thin clients for between 50 cents and $5. Thin clients that normally cost $750. What a way to turn it around, boys.
You fucking idiot. Check the timestamp on the posts. The above post was made BEFORE the other guy's post was made. How can the original one be redundant while the redundant one is +2?
Idiots.
Check out Lone-tar - this backup software is nothing short of amazing. Very configurable. I used this product way back on Xenix386, and it was very reliable.
If the "big tape jukebox" is a scsi/ide tape drive, it should work.
http://www.lone-tar.com/
Not sure about the antivirus, but doesn't seem complicated maybe you could write your own, or even better there's some open source prog. that does the same - check w/samba?
Ariel Sharon is a crime warrior!
First, this isn't your typical "imagine a beowulf cluster of these" troll. Also, I don't know much about Linux clustering, but...
What is the viability of using a cluster of moderately powerful workstations as an application server? If my limited understanding of OpenMosix, for example, is correct, your thin clients should be able to run an application from the cluster, have the cluster take care of the load balancing issues, and (ideally) ensure a positive experience for the users.
Does anyone else have thoughts on something like this?
to make at least some attempt at a joke out of using Lone-tar in Texas!
Something like "In Texath, we find we prefer to uth Lone-tar for backupth". Or something else actually funny.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
First of all, if you don't allow your employees to d/l and install garbage software from the net, and don't give them access to tweak and mess with drivers, you usually don't have trouble with 'tech support headaches'
One of the wonderful things about Unix boxes is that you can allow employees to download garbage software relatively safely. Because the desktops themselves are often "thin clients" they are essentially immune to problems. Because in a Unix applications themselves can only run with a user's permissions they can't do any more harm than the user could.
People get nailed all the time by NT problems and as a result the "lock down" solutions which make administration with reasonable help desk::employee ratios possible kill user freedom.
I beg to differ dude; I work in St. Pete and I live in Largo. PI-nellas Park and Kenneth City fit the bill for a ghetto - wait, so does St. Pete. South of Central's quite the dump. :)
-Walter Moore
Eckerd College
I actually got a call this morning from the Largo IT dept. about a desktop support position. I'm happy where I'm at doing Linux admin (would hate to step down and make less) but anyone in the area interested should call them.
...for violating the DMCA?
Oh, wait, this is FLORIDA. I mean, come on, they have voter fraud left and right; they're not going to give a pea-sized shit about something as dinky as intellectual copyright.
Whatever. Linux. W00t. Wee. Yay.
or other proprietary solutions. Any visual basic or ActiveX solution could be coded up and made usable on linux.
Who's the zealot? YOU sound like an IT guy that would force everyone to use Microsoft just so people could run Bonzi buddy.
I don't get it.
Is something funny about coffee or writing?
Or is there somethng to the "down there" phrase ?
I'm a big fan of linux, but supporting 100 concurrent users on a dual-1GHz server seems a lot. They're talking about moving to Openoffice - software that takes about a minute to load on my relatively new system. Can you really run have 100 thin clients, with say forty of them running OpenOffice, on a single dual-processor machine?
why can't schools do this?
I can't believe no one's given you the K-12Linux link yet. It is based on The Linux Terminal Server Project and is customized for school use.
Subsequent user loads will pop up MUCH faster.
less money.
count
no count.
This from the guy who had trouble setting up openSSH ???
You are truly a zealot.
looking into a MICROSOFT solution. Microsoft operating systems and applications will require very big machines and carry HUGE licensing costs. And to that the lovely viruses that pop up and destroy microsoft networks and you are looking at a pain in the butt. Largo is using a system similar to LTSP. Look into it. Learn something.
case in point - i locked myself out of my truck (i know it was stupid...) at 3am about 1/2 mile outside of the largo city limit and started walking to find gas station that was open so i could call a locksmith. since it was early sunday morning nothing was open and after about 30 minutes of walking i was able to flag down a (largo) police car. i explained to the officer my predicament and asked if he could give me a lift to a gas station or let me borrow his phone - to which he replied "this isn't my area" then he drove off.
i've had 2 other similarly unpleasant encounters with largo cops, but you get the point. i realize this is only marginally relevant, but just keep in mind that these guys are notorious for being pricks around here and they're probably not gonna show you their linux thin clients if you ask.
Well documented and overlooked. All in the name of some stupid whiz bang 'feature' that users can't live without.
I can't tell you how many days that we could have kept at 90 percent functionality if we had had a system like this instead of hyper powered system running a very popular OS that was regularly crippled by a virus.
LTSP thin client sitting on every desk in the enterprise with a second machine for people with a proven need running whatever proprietary app they need.
last a very very long time. Get familiar with LTSP and find a way to save your company a whole bunch of money.
It would be interesting to have some of their perspective. What do they think of their Linux systems?
The thin clients mention is a key point. It's not one that's going to most situations: in a small or medium sized office, you're probably going to want full workstations for workers. But there are other situations - kiosks, point of sale, terminals in a factory or warehouse - where the demand on the individual terminals is low but the chance of failure is high (due to the environment).
Holy crap, you're right! Infact it got old A LONG TIME AGO! So please, SHUT THE FUCK UP!
None of yer Hindus harmonizing in the hallways,
or Shintos shatterin' sheetglass in the shithouse.
Plug in the power and ethernet. Turn on the power switch.
Configure your IP address or DHCP name into the NCD.
Possibly restart the NCD.
Right-mouse should bring up a local window manager menu, which should include telnet windows. Telnet to your target host, set the DISPLAY variable to "my.ip.add.ress:0.0", and launch an X application (e.g. xterm &).
That should let you use the built-in X11R4/R5 functionality.
Once that works, then you can futz with setting remote desktop manager sessions (which I've never had to set up nor have much use for. *g*)
BTW, what is the other poster talking about "X11" vs. "XFree86"? There are X11R3/4/5/6 protocol levels, but any compliant display for a given protocol level should function just fine for applications that don't need higher level compliance. XFree86 is just an implementation of X11R6 protocols, not something other than X11.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
In soviet russia, up fucks the shut!!!!!!!
wow, both Largo and Katz in 1 month, even if you didn't like their work, you can't deny the contribution to popular culture. They will me missed.
Buy Microsoft Server Products Retail !!!!!!!! Is this your advice? What an idiot you are? You are advising that companies with 100s of machines, go out and TRY to buy enough MS Server products and licenses to satisfy the BSA, and all on the retail market. The 40,000 quote just became 200,000. NOONE buys MS Server products retail. NOONE. That means that every company of size buys MS server products through a 'special' MS licensing deal like Software Assurance. To cut to the chase on this little argument. If YOU the party of the first part, wants to remain legal with Microsoft, the party of the second part, NO server products are transferable from one machine to another under these 'special' licensing plans. So the party of the first part is definitely breaking the law when the party of the first part is using the cd of a microsoft server product on multiple machines.
Read up on Microsoft licensing before you start ranting.
All machines that a company buys from Dell have an OEM copy of a Microsoft product preinstalled. Under any licensing agreement a company might have with Microsoft, the Server software that might be installed over the OEM copy will be an UPGRADE.
We talked about this ad infinitum on OS News several months ago. It was bloody.
uy Microsoft Server Products Retail !!!!!!!! Is this your advice? What an idiot you are?
...and then...
? customer_id=04&keycode=6W300&order_code=pe4600 ). You're grossly confusing client operating systems where there are restrictive licenses, with server licensing: They are two VASTLY different things. Server licenses generally work as a "you have 5 pieces of paper giving you Windows 2000 Server licenses, so you can have 5 servers operating at one time".
Uh huh. Retail=Something other than OEM. It means "don't select the `Windows 2000 Server' radio button when ordering that new Dell Server". I'm including any licensing agreements with Microsoft in "retail". BTW: I'm not quite sure what your point is anyways- The cost different between OEM and retail is marginal, and between Software Assurance and retail is again marginal (indeed SA is often more expensive because it gives you multiple pieces of paper allowing you to run X number of the current software product, allowing you to upgrade as new versinos are released). Most organizations buy their licenses through a reseller consultant organization that keeps them current with their licensing needs.
If YOU the party of the first part, wants to remain legal with Microsoft, the party of the second part, NO server products are transferable from one machine to another under these 'special' licensing plans.
All machines that a company buys from Dell have an OEM copy of a Microsoft product preinstalled.
No they don't. All of the client machines have a copy of a Microsoft product (depending upon the agreement that the VAR made with Microsoft), however the user chooses whether or not to add an OEM Server OS (and pays a hefty premium for doing so) to servers. Please feel free to confirm this (see http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.asp
http://www.dell.com/us/en/gen/services/service_sin gle_factory.htm
THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT OF WORK ("SOW") WILL SUPPLEMENT THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF ANY APPLICABLE OVERRIDING SIGNED AGREEMENT BETWEEN CUSTOMER AND DELL (INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION, DELL'S STANDARD KEY CUSTOMER PURCHASE AGREEMENT) OR, IN THE ABSENCE OF SUCH AN AGREEMENT, DELL'S STANDARD INVOICE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF SALE.
Service Overview
This service provides on-site internal and external inspection, installation, and testing of a Dell PowerEdge server by a Dell-certified field engineer and is a logical follow-on the Dell's custom factory integration services. The Server Installation service includes connection of the server into the customer's network, verification of the factory-installed network operating system (NOS) functionality, installation into a Dell-supported rack, print- queue set-up, diagnostics testing, establishment of five user logins, and establishment of user logins from up to five client workstations.
Summary of Customer Responsibilities/Notes:
The customer must place server in the immediate area in which the server is to be installed.
The customer must ensure that the required power outlets have been installed.
The customer must have IP address(es) available for the server being installed.
This service does not include installation of products nor application activity not specifically mentioned in this document.
This version of the service is to be used when the network operating system is factory-installed.
This document provides only an overview of the service steps and customer responsibilities.
This service will be provided during the hours of 8:00am to 6:00pm(local customer time), Monday through Friday, excluding holidays.
Specifications valid in US only and subject to change without notice.
Prior to the delivery of this service for systems being upgraded, the customer must take normal precautions to backup systems to safeguard against any accidental loss of data. Dell will have no liability for loss of data or computer programs.
Key Service Steps:
Unpack systems and components and inspect internal condition of the systems (cables attached, boards seated, no damage, etc.)
Install server into a previously assembled rack, if required.
Set-up and connect Dell peripherals (keyboard, monitor, mouse) to the server.
Verify proper firmware revisions and operating system functionality.
Boot factory-installed NOS.
If required, load NIC device drivers and protocol parameters into the operating system.
Verify connection to the customer's network.
Create five user logins on the server being installed.
Attach server to up to 5 client workstations and verify login capability.
Demonstrate to customer how to share drives and directories.
Set up one local printer for up to 5 workstations (if customer can provide printer drivers).
Brief customer on administrative procedures to add additional user accounts and network clients.
Assist customer with partitioning and utilization of remaining server space.
Remove all packaging to a customer-designated area within the facility.
Buy Online or Call: 1-800-WWW-DELL
Copyright 1999-2002 Dell Computer Corporation. For customers of the 50 United States only.
Site Terms of Use : Terms and Conditions of Sale : Dell's Privacy Policy : Battery Recall Information
http://www.microsoft.com/licensing/resources/os_ne wpc.asp
What exactly are these links? The first two have to do with the conditions Dell imposes if a user opts to include an operating system, and the last links to a Microsoft text detailing the conditions regarding an OEM Desktop software installation for firms with a software licensing agreement with MS.
Microsoft Operating System Licensing Guidelines for New PCs
July 9, 2002
All operating systems acquired through a Microsoft® volume licensing program require that a licensed desktop operating system already exists and was installed by the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) that built the PC. The operating system licenses offered from a volume licensing program are upgrades only. This means that any operating system license acquired from an Open License, Select License, or Enterprise Agreement will be only an upgrade and can be installed only on a PC that came from the OEM with an operating system already installed. PCs that did not have an operating system installed when purchased will not qualify for a volume license operating system license.
Volume Licensing Media Restrictions
If you have an Open License, Select License, or Enterprise Agreement, you cannot use your volume licensing media to install a Microsoft desktop operating system on a PC that does not already have a desktop operating system installed. The media that is used with volume licensing programs is the upgrade version only and cannot be installed on a PC that does not already have an OEM-installed desktop operating system.
If you own a PC that does not have an existing full-version desktop operating system installed, you need to purchase a retail packaged product (FPP) full-version operating system rather than using volume licensing media.
----------------
Read it and weep.
Straight from the horses mouth.
If YOU want to remain on the good side of the BSA you had better order computers, client or SERVERS, from dell with an OS preinstalled. That is IF you want to use volume licensing. If a major company decides to skip volume licensing, they will find the price of MS Servers to be quite extravagant, wouldn't you say.
http://www.microsoft.com/licensing,,,,
Yes I am ranting. But I am constantly amazed at how little even experienced microsoft techs really know about microsoft licensing.
-Server products are included under the volume licensing rules.
-Microsoft considers so-called naked pcs to be illegal. Desktop or Server. Remember that any and all naked pcs are avenues for piracy, as far as microsoft is concerned.
-Media acquired under a volume licensing program contains operating systems that are considered by microsoft to be UPGRADE versions only. If the operating systems(desktop or server) are an upgrade versions, then the PC bought from an OEM must have an OS preinstalled, or YOU will be violating your license with microsoft. Desktop or Server.
That is if you 'want' to remain legal. Frankly I couldn't care less about your legal status.
My employer is in the hole to the tune of USD$30,000,000,000. You might think that this would be a sensible time to think about OpenOffice, Samba, open-source DB's. On second thought, let's wait until things get really serious.
How many times are you going to keep reiterating what I've already said? This criteria license actually specifically states that it applies to desktop operating systems (it also applies to new PCs, but I'll ignore that for now). How many more links are you going to provide specifically saying that they have criteria for new PCs for desktop operating systems? You keep adding your own disclaimers that it applies to servers as well, but not only have you not proven this IT IS NOT TRUE. Server licenses do not restrict it to a specific machine unless it's OEM, and even then that doesn't preclude you from upgrading the computer.
You also seem to be missing the point on the licensing costs: Many of the volume plans actually cost as much or more than retail, however they have other benefits like software assurance (version guarantees, basically) or easier license tracking.
P.S. the reason Microsoft has the disclaimers on the OEM upgrade is because of powerful agreements that they have with most VARs that they will not sell PCs without a Microsoft OS (because truthfully about 98% of the time someone will then install a warez copy of Windows on it), and it would create a conflict of interest and undermine their efforts and agreements if there were dozens of customers asking vendors like Dell for no OS on a DESKTOP machine when they have an existing agreement with Microsoft.
You are going to have to show where exactly on a microsoft site that they state that server operating systems are excluded from the volume licensing programs. From everything I can find on microsofts site, Server operating systems ARE under the same regulations as desktop OSs, as might be construed by the statement in a previous link that states 'ALL operating systems..' Listing a link to a dell is not enough. As you will find if you actually look on the MS site, starting on the W2k server link, and following on throught the 'pricing and licensing' links, server operating systems , like it or not, are under the same rules as desktops, when a company has a volume license.
Maybe I am mistaken on the cost and if so thanks for enduring this tirade.
'...excluded from volume licensing program' rules on installing on multiple pcs and on naked pcs.
my bad.
Which is why I left slashdot for adequacy.org, and eventually retired from the trolling "scene".
Firstly, Mom doens't use a walker.
Secondly, we are talking about information gathering, not assault.
While the engineer developed his thesis, the director leaned over to
his assistant and whispered, "Did you ever hear of why the sea is salt?"
"Why the sea is salt?" whispered back the assistant. "What do you
mean?"
The director continued: "When I was a little kid, I heard the story of
`Why the sea is salt' many times, but I never thought it important until just
a moment ago. It's something like this: Formerly the sea was fresh water and
salt was rare and expensive. A miller received from a wizard a wonderful
machine that just ground salt out of itself all day long. At first the miller
thought himself the most fortunate man in the world, but soon all the villages
had salt to last them for centuries and still the machine kept on grinding
more salt. The miller had to move out of his house, he had to move off his
acres. At last he determined that he would sink the machine in the sea and
be rid of it. But the mill ground so fast that boat and miller and machine
were sunk together, and down below, the mill still went on grinding and that's
why the sea is salt."
"I don't get you," said the assistant.
-- Guy Endore, "Men of Iron"
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