Slashdot Mirror
PS2 As PC
Dark Paladin writes: "What if Sony and AOL stopped whining about Microsoft's dominance on the desktop/entry into the console market, and actually did something about it? Here's an article from The Gamer's Press about how the Playstation 2 could be used as a killer Linux box, and what might happen to the PC world if it happened." It's the same sort of speculation that leads people to wonder why the X-Box shouldn't be the basis of a fine GNU/Linux machine. (Strangely, it places Linus in Holland as well.)
Umm.. You do realize that Sony plans on releasing a Linux developer kit for the PS2, right? The original story was here.
Honestly, I think Sony has realized they can have the best of both worlds. They can capture market from the X-Box for the hobbiests, while still making a profit. How?
Easy. Because, really, how many people are going to buy a PS2 and not buy games for it? ;-) Especially hobbiests who want to write their own little games: these are the ones most likely to want to check out all the hottest new titles too. Mass publication will still be limited to those who have contracts with Sony. Sony might even come up with minor distribution deals for the hobbiests (more money).
People who buy it as a set-top box for email and web browsing (who are also likely in the minority, judging from other similar set-top box sales) will probably have kids, and these kids will probably push to get games, too.
Sure, there are exceptions, but it would be highly unlikely that Sony hasn't done the math, or is following a route that won't still be in their best interests. Even if this route will cause them to lose some profits, it's likely that they'd lose even more to competitors if they chose not to.
To summarize: the game market doesn't go away. Just the opposite, they enlarge their market by stealing customers away from the competitors. Sony may be only acting in their best interests, but in this case, I think everyone wins.
Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
... it's an X-box. You'd be paying Microsoft for something they control the specs on...
...
Think about it before you consider I'm just flaming.
Sony too, should have you thinking same thoughts.
It is my humble opinion that we mustn't forget our strengths at being able to engineer *anything* on a hobbyist/cooperative basis.
Including platforms like this. I know I'd like to hack on a machine I'm much more intimately familiar with, if even only by stint of association (marginally) with the engineers that designed and built it
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Note the original outrageously great result the Emotion Engine got proved to be erroneous. The new figure (to save you the 470K download and them the slashdotting) is 616.67 POVmark, on Linux 2.2.2, at CPU speed of 294 Mhz (comparing to 1000Mhz PCs at that level). The score of $ divided by POVmark is 0.48. The only other results anywhere near that are AMD PC systems and a PowerMac G4, all of which do outperform the PS2 board, but the nearest price-performace is one of the AMD systems at 0.88. The other AMD systems are at 0.92 and 0.95 price/performance. The G4 is at 1.05 and is running OSX- very likely running just Darwin, with no GUI layer present.
It looks like if you're into POV, a PS2 can probably render faster than your PC for almost any value of PC. It takes particularly good gigahertz Athlon systems to beat it, or a stripped-down G4 running Darwin to beat it- or a quad Intel system to get anywhere near it ;)
If it _does_ become the case that consoles get used for such things and eat up marketshare of PCs- Sony does _not_ make an OS. Microsoft does. So if this starts happening, Sony is benefitted by having the PS2 beat X-Box in that sphere.
I am nearly finished with just such a project. I have a small pc that mounts a samba share containing 40GB of mp3s. Unfortunately, the machine runs win2k so I can use the tv-out function of an old nvidia RIVA-128 card. The soundblaster live has an extra card you can get that gives you toslink. I hooked that up to my amp and control it all with a wireless mouse and keyboard. It works, but I have to spray paint the case still (black to match the stereo equip). Realjukebox2 plays the music (version 2 is required to play over network share).
I am most excited, however, about the new nvidia chipset mobos with the onboard DolbyDigital encoders and graphics. I hope I can find one with builtin tv-out. If not, my next tv should have a vga port for 640x480 (the Mitsu Platinum Series).
_damnit_
_damnit_
It's my job to freeze you. -- Logan's Run
didn't i see a story on /. recently about a Linux kit for PS2s in Japan for $200 or something?
Yes, in Japan, if you have a Japanese PS2. They have said that it won't be available for the North American version of the PS2.
Improvise, adapt, and overcome.
Yes, they have. Linuxgames.com has a one-line note from an nVidia developer stating that Linux won't be left out of the nForce.
Improvise, adapt, and overcome.
No - it can. I had a rep from Caldera at Networld+Interop sit there and tell me and a few other people that it runs on a 286. I tried to correct him, but he was a sales drone - facts are futile.
I could be wrong about the model number, but I remember having Linux on one. I also had 386BSD on it for a short time. I had wanted to try it but my machine didn't have a math copro at the time, so I found one of the PS/2's that did. It may have even been a 486.
It was so long ago... (though according to my bank, my employment is listed with them as "Recent Grad" - that was 8 years ago!)
I think it was a PS2 model 60. A pretty decent machine for 1992.
:)
I guess I should have resisted
"32MB of RAM on the PS2 isn't gonna be enough to drop X on it, in my opinion, let alone a ported browser."
Well actually they demoed Netscape 4.x, as well as (full screen) Real Video, and AOL all running on the PS2 at the E3 expo last month in Los Angeles.
I've also personally seen X with twm and open xterms on a PS2. (in which I typed "ls").
Joseph Elwell.
When the PS2 Linux developers kit comes out in America I'll seriously consider buying it. Hope it's compatible with whatever Disk/Networking expansion kits come out for the PS2. I'm quite impressed by this little box; I've wasted an uncountable number of hours playing Ring of Red, Star Wars Starfighter, SSX, Ridge Racer V, and just lately Red Faction. It's funny, I bought the damn thing to get away from Linux because I wanted a game machine which would work straight out of the box, no fussing. Now I'd like to get Linux up and running on the damn thing just for shits and giggles.
I doubt either the PS2 or the X-Box will make much headway as an internet appliance. At least not until HDTV becomes the norm -- NTSC/PAL TV resolution is just too poor to support web browsing.
...of course hardware never fails.
Vermifax
Vermifax
Logout
(ie: can't delete files without viewing them first).
Oh god - the spammers are gonna love this.
In order to delete those 30 spam emails, you have to view each and every one of them.
What's unfortunate is that the same market penetration problem needlessly afflicted Dreamcast. Too many binary-thinking fanboys pledged allegiance to PS2, and Saturn created too much ill will with developers.
The premise still works. It did back in the '80s, when everybody had C64s, Atari 800s, and Speccies. The only difference between those systems and game consoles were the keyboards and "mass" storage device connectors. I know quite a few people who used their C64 only for games. Then GEOS arrived, and GeoWrite became their first word processor.
It can still work today. Now that PS2 has settled in, the "shortage" has ended, and hasty PSone ports are giving way to real limit-pushing titles, there's enough market penetration to start using those USB ports for something besides Unreal Tournament.
As much as turning a PS2 into a "full-fledged" PC sounds like a killer app, something as simple as Sony's Movie Shaker, a simple video editing package, would be even better. Insert Movie Shaker disc into PS2. Connect digital video camera to i.LINK port. Edit movies with a Dual Shock controller! Add a USB keyboard, and titles are easier. Doesn't matter if the disc boots Linux, Win CE, QNX, BeOS*, or a VAX emulator. It just works. And people raised on Atari 2600 and NES would never picture a game console doing something like that. Now that's a killer app.
*: Assuming Be didn't give it's last dying gasp in the time it took me to type this.
We're not scare-mongering/This is really happening - Radiohead
This sig intentionally left blank.
The RS in RS-232 does not stand for Radio Shack, if that's what you were thinking. And 232 isn't the only RS standard.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
As far as the PS2 being a PC killer, Cringely had a column about that 2 years ago.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
So maybe you'd like to share that knowledge with the rest of us?
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
> TV screens are cheaper than monitors. TVs may be cheaper than monitors, but monitor prices have come down drastically - and there's little disputing that the visuals on a monitor are generally better than that of a TV, particularly for web browsing and other duties than involve reading text from a screen. $99 will generally buy you a pretty crappy TV, but it can get you a low-end 15" monitor that has better clarity, even if it isn't as big as the TV.
The X-Box will never be a killer Linux machine because it is based around an nvidia chipset. Nvidia do not release their programming specifications to the Linux community. Their OpenGL drivers are binary only. We have no reason to believe that they would release the programming manuals for their new chipset, so the best we can hope for out of the X-Box is that the nvidia chipset will be compatible with some older Intel chipset. Then, at least, Linux could boot it. Until nvidia's stance changes, the X-Box will not be a good Linux 3D gaming machine.
X is not a memory hog. X looks like a memory hog because the system accounting charges the RAM on the video card against the X process. X applications use shared memory to store (and sometimes leak) bitmapped images, and this memory is also charged against the X server. On my very fully featured X server, X takes up about 5 MB of system memory, plus it gets charged the 32 MB or RAM on my video card, possibly twice. If I turn off a lot of the extensions, X uses even less than 5MB. This is perfectly acceptable and the reason people were able to run X on 8MB 486s in 1993.
That G4 benchmark looks bogus. It is made with a 400MHz G4 and scores 1233.33; the second best Mac is a 500MHz G4 and scores 360.98.
The only explanation for that is if POVray suddenly got support for ALTIVEC. If that was the case I would have expected that more Mac-users would flock to the site and submit benchmarks.
Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
The first thing that I'd do is install Bleem.
-Waldo
Hmm, I just got a home cinema setup installed, with Yamaha amp and all the trimmings. I was thinking how nice it would be to rip all my CD's, plumb a PC into the amp and play them that way.
But a PS2 would be even better. It's small and I could use the TV for the screen. If it was running Linux, I could NFS mount a filesystem served from elsewhere in the house too.
Anyone know what the graphics capabilities of the PS2 are like under Linux? Just wondering what kind of mp3/Ogg Vobis player I would be able to use.
Macka
From your article:
;>
1925 MST: I am dreaming about finding Torvalds and taking a rail gun to him.
And who says playing Quake doesn't lead to violent behaviour
Seriously, it's not hard to get Quake running on yer Linux box. Maybe a bit harder for the average schmoe than good old Winders but it'll probably run just as well if not better.
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Delphis
Delphis
Reading the Linux Quake HOWTO is always a good place to start.
http://www.linuxgames.com/quake/
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Delphis
Delphis
As you said yourself, as they make more units the per-unit price drops. If there is a huge demand for PS2s the price should drop far enough that they make a profit. And even if they don't, unless this is being used as a server or hardware controller (ie no user interaction) it will give them great market penetration. Who really will buy a PS2 for computing or DVDs and then not buy any games? You've already shelled out over $400 for this thing, why not try out the latest golf sim or RPG. It's just like with PCs, people who aren't going to buy the latest Tekken Tag Team Fortress will buy something like Myst or Rollercoaster Tycoon, because they've already got the hardware.
Bite the hand.
One can understand how a journalist could get confused about the place of origin of Linux, seeing as how Linus wrote it because he was dissatisfied with Minix, which _is_ from Holland.
I tend to believe most parents would have an easier time forking over $300 for a PS2/XBox over a PC, especially if that PS2 came with a module to allow basic internet/WWW interactivity (including e-mail) and basic functions like word-processing.
Most parents will buy anything if they think it will help Johnny get ahead in school. Given the choice between a PC, with a proven track record of typing reports, educational software and use in the labor marketplace vs. a "toy" that promises to be "as good as" a PC for word processing, but is primarily a game machine, what do you think they're going to choose?
" B, A, START!"
Will this replace "CLEAR!" as the warning to back off a cardiac arrest victim about to be defibrillated?
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"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Slashdot effect if full force.
: )
-- "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."- Albert E.
They mentioned that you could go through your own ISP. I'm sure, however, there will be a push to get you to use AOL.
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InstantCool
You forget that Sony and AOL Time/Warner own a great deal of movie and music property that they could give PS2 users access to... at a cost, of course. Which is probably why Sony is so hot to trot about killing stuff like Napster.
Screw 'em all and get a Gamecube. If all you want is games, that's all you'll get.
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InstantCool
Running MAME from the couch.
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InstantCool
Isn't RAM basically free right now? So if Sony wants to take over the world, all they'll have to do is quadruple the RAM in the PS2 -- which'll cost them about $50.
The PS2 (as well as the Dreamcast) has a VGA-out. Once you add a keyboard and a mouse you can't tell the difference as long as you keep the tower hidden. :)
Then they loose all the advantage of open source! (I'm not saying they are smart enough to realise that...) The point is, all they have to do is get Linux installed. They can leave everything else up to the open source community and AOL.
This would make me really happy because it would remove the need for functionality from Linux (yes, you heard that right). X-Windows is simply not designed to allow user-level games to talk to 3DXLR8ors. And until this DeCSS thing works itself out I'd rather not have to worry about playing DVDs there either. Linux can just concentrate on being the anti-BeOS -- the no-multimedia desktop.
When I play video games I want to be treated like an idiot. When I hook my DVD-player up to the big-screen TV I want it to just go. And when I have coding to do, I have coding to do. I've had enough of the PC upgrade cycle! Linux on PS2 will free us from nVidia and Intel's shackles!
The fact that Nintendo is losing money on their hardware is simply not true.
//never// sell their hardware for a price less than the cost of making it. I've seen this remark in several interviews throughout the 90's.
The president of the big N (Mr. Yamauchi) has always held the position that Nintendo will
This is probably _one_ of the reasons Nintendo is still around after all these years.
/largo
...
"and implemented with a simple GUI that hides the guts of the system completely."
Sounds like Windows to me.
Karnal
I'm current at Sun's JavaOne conference, where they have had several demonstrations of Linux/WindowMaker/Java2 running on a Playstation2 equipped with an "early-release" hard drive. Very cool stuff.
I've always had my doubts about this. Especially using a kb and mouse. Most everyone I know with a console of any kind sets the console/tv up on one side of the room and then sits on the couch on the oposite side of the room. People would have to rearange everything to accomodate a new set of peripherals. Not to mention that you'd have to get aol to play nice with sony as well as the linux community.Now they could advertise the whole setup (PS2, decent LCD, mouse kb) but how would it be that different from any other internet appliance (in the eyes of gramma)?
Aside from the neat factor, the only thing I could see using linux on a PS2 for is to view my Region 2 DVD's. What can a PS2 do that my PC can't? Will Loki games run on it? Will it signifcantly reduce the time it takes to analyze Seti@home packets? or will it just be a neat toy?
i thought I did a pretty good job on no sleep in 48 hours, how aboout you, tough guy?
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
BTW. If you did get a PS2/Linux box would you not get any games? I would. Therefore; Sony would still make the bucks.
Maybe then you would start seeing networked games for lots of the the current PS2 games. The current AI is good, but you can kick its ass quickly. Real people playing make for challanging games. I tire of one 'twitch' game after another.
make Linux, not Microsoft. sin(beast) = -0.809016994374947424102293417182819
visions of Colecovision ADAM...
Good news is that they can't. Chipset/IDE drivers must be loaded before the disks initialized, DMA set up, etc. It cannot be loaded as a module since there is no disk access until the system starts. Since it is build in, it must be GPL, no binary only. The X driver is another story though.
Except that the initrd image cannot be loaded from the disk until the controllers for the disk have been initialized. On the Redhat install, the CDROM/Floppy drivers have been loaded at the point the RAM disk needs to be loaded. For IDE this just won't work. You can't initialize the disk until the drivers are loaded, and you can't load the drivers until you initialize the disks. Chicken, egg. Added to the fact that chipsets effect things like memory mangement and other settings like PCI configuration, waiting until everything gets set up, then loading the drivers won't work.
Dont worry about X. It runs on a 32Mb IPaq with still enough room for java to run.
This seems like a godsend for web-based applications, if there are keyboards and mice widely available for it. Simply compile the embedded version of Konqueror (which does *not* require KDE and runs in very little memory), then with a little DHCP and a few CDs, you've got yourself an easy deployment of a web-based application suite.
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"He may look like an idiot, and talk like an idiot, but don't let that fool you. He really is an idiot." - Duck Soup
These consoles have a limited memory amount, but they have fast processors, and they are really cheap. So they may be interesting for intensive computations (math) . If MPI / PVM / Mosix are properly working on this hardware, you can stack some of these and build a cheap and very efficient cluster.
But I've read several times that Sony and Microsoft will *loose* money by selling a XBOX or a PS2 box. The components are more expensive that how much these consoles are sold, because games will bring money. It's just like a cell phone business (cheap, even free phone, but you must subscribe an operator) .
If everyone starts using consoles as servers or workstations, maybe Microsoft and Sony will try to fight against this (well, Sony has a Linux distro, but they *sell* it to compensate the games you won't buy)
{{.sig}}
This would be excellent as a microplatform, for families who cant afford/dont want a full fledged PC.
When the HDD for the PS/2 comes out, and a modem/netcard and keyboard (if they're not out already - im not a gamer) this would make a good alternitive to WebTV.
However - I seriously doubt this has the potential to replace computers. I'm sure there will be many more posts with brilliant descriptions of why this will be the case - PC vs PS/2 $Cost/AppCompat/Performance ratio being one of them i can think of.
I don't know about this idea when it comes to office and e-mail tasks. For games, especially games with a lot of movement, a TV is great, since the lack of hi-res graphics is masked by the frame rate. I tried hooking my Alpha SX 164 up to my "hi res" (> 700 vert lines) TV, but it just doesn't work. Fonts come out horribly. It's o.k. for web browsing, but I have to jack the font size up as high as possible. Maybe with anti-aliasing and no RGB to S-video conversion it would be better, but I don't think you could get too much out of it.
I keep seeing these "PS2" headlines and thinking they're talking about the IBM PS/2.
I really need to wake up now.
The number of people who will buy a PS2 so they can run only free software on it is statistically insignificant. IT probably will be possible to run X on the PS2, if only to avoid the bad press from hordes of whining Slahdotters.
The most likely scenario for consumer use, however, is that Sony will use the linux kernel, but write a proprietary framebuffer-driver like DirectFB for the PS2 hardware.
They will also probably write their own GUI toolkit, also under proprietary license, that also runs on an X Windows or Linux framebuffer backend.
Meaning that while the core OS is, and always will be free, PS2 applications and the 'Official' GUI on the System will be proprietary, much like Apple's MacOS X GUI.
You will have to pay Sony to develop apps to run on a PS2 (since you need the toolkit API and libraries), but you will be able to develop and run those apps on a Linux desktop PC, as long as you have the (proprietary) runtime and devlopment libraries installed.
There are other markets for a Linux-running PS2 platform - the film, broadcast and sports industries for realtime graphics (realtime mocap-driven characters, virtual sets, advertising overlays etc.) These apps need a solid OS and devlopment tools, which is what Linux is perfect for.
I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
what might happen to the PC world if it happened."
Absolutely nothing will happen to the PC world. Lets see a PlayStation2 running Oracle or some other program in a colo rack. Do you think fortune 500's will rush out to buy a PS2? Get real.
Look for entertainment purposes of installing Linux on a PS2 fine I could see why someone would be overly excited, however in the real world Linux isn't everything so let's not forget that. Uh no I'm not a Microsoft user I use BSD before anyone decides to troll. The fact remains this is nothing more than a novelty.
Want Root?
Secondly, all the PS2 really is, is a MIPS processor. Linux AND gcc run on MIPS. gcc has been ported to the ps2 as well.
The kernel does memory management. Having ported the kernel to the PS2, the job of memory management has been taken care of. Now you just havta compile stuff on it.
The Linux PS2 kit includes a special adapter for outputting to CRT's. Something about having to have a "Sync on Green" compatible monitor.
It's got 2 USB, 1 firewire (4 not 6 pin, you have to supply power), and 1 pcmcia slot. Its only limitation is that it does not have any PCI or ISA expansion slots.
That said, the damn thing can do 6.2 gigaflops. Plus, it's been custom designed for floating-point ops and graphics. Need I say more?
almost forgot - I don't care if he thinks Linus is from Holland, let's all thank this guy for using the term GNU/Linux.
It's called USB. The PS2 has 2 USB ports.
I hope they did mod it. I'd love to know the next time I go to the Doc's office, that he's a hacker too.
I wasn't talking about the linux that will be on these systems - I was referring to linux as it is today. The linux kernel is nothing without gcc, ls, bash, and all the other GNU utils. Linux is a kernel; GNU/Linux is a system for operating a computer (ie, an OS).
But I ask you to consider: as developers, even for some sort of newbie hand-holding sort of PS2Linux, we cannot do anything without GNU apps - we cannot compile the X or mozilla you mention. We also can't port them without binutils or emacs (I prefer vi). We can't even compile the kernel on the PS2 without the MIPS cross-compile of gcc (ie runix). I think MR. Stallman and those who have programmed in the name of GNU deserve some credit.
And its funny about Linus...I remember reading one of those first newsgroup posts he made announcing Linux - he tried to drum up support for it by telling everyone that he had gotten gcc to work on it. 'Nuff said.
Heh - "mission critical software that lives depend on." I don't think such a thing exists. When we (we being biomedical engineers) need a computational device that cannot fail, we do EVERYTHING in hardware - that way, it quite literally cannot fail.
What most people are missing about the Linux PS2 as a Wintel killer is that it has very little to do with an immediate business model and very much to do with unseating a powerful marketplace player (Microsoft). Jackson's identification of the "application barrier to entry" was right on the money.
- A PS2 that can run Linux instantly beats any PC on cost of software alone. Note that this is a marketing perspective, not a detailed technical one. Sure, MS Office might be better than Star Office, but Star Office is free, not ~$500.
- A Linux distro for the PS2 can be realistically sold for $20, and make a profit because your "developer costs" are mainly the costs to create nice skins and a Sony look-n-feel and configure everything "out of the box." Sell it at the more usual $50 for a PS2 game and you're going to town. Half the price of WinDoze, ten times the functionality (remember, it comes with the marketing equivalent of MS Office).
- You've now smashed the application barrier to entry and made money doing it. You can run every PS1 and PS2 game, and many of these are titles consumers already own. You can play DVDs and CDs. And it replaces that new PC you were thinking about. And there's thousands of apps available that will run as soon as someone does a
./configure; make install.
Does this make sense for Sony? Damn straight. One of the things Sony worries about all the time is "What do we do about Microsoft?" Anyone in new business development at Sony at least considers that question on every new business concept they consider. Get rid of Microsoft's hegemony and you've opened up a door for massive new revenue streams, even if you lost money doing it. The fact that you can make money means it's stupid not to do it.-----
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Klactovedestene!
And I ran X on a Sun 3 in 1987 in 4 MB of RAM. It was fine. You must have been running huge apps :-) They filled mem, not X.
That would never work because Sony sells the PS2's for a loss which means that if people stopped by games for them Sony would eventually go out of business.
I don't want to start a KDE vs Gnome war, but when I read your post, I went to my lab workstation in my company, which I knew I had the KDE up since a very, very long time. I can't afford to shutdown X, at the present time, because I use 4 workspaces, in each I have 3 or more telnet sessions to some development hosts, or I am just monitoring some other things, and this setup s perfect for my development.
And sometimes I even start a separate X session on display 1!
Anyway, I went to my lab computer, and checked the uptime, and it's up 171 days! That means my KDE is up 171 days, and I have only 128 MB of RAM.
I would guess that the version of KDE I use doesn't leak much memory, over time. I also have Netscape 4.7 running constantly, which shows that despite all the criticism, it's not a bad browser, for Linux.
Sigged!
Runix, Linux based on 2.4 kernel for PS1 for $100, also with a sort of docking station. (6/1)
The linux for the PS1 is available now, the one for PS2 I'm not sure about, both are expected 3Q, 2001 sometime.
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Linux: The world's best text-adventure game.
Agreed, but an iMac is $1300. This sounds like it'd cost $400 max. BIG difference there, as far as I'm concerned. Not to mention that with more of a functional WebTV-ish box (which, to me, is where this type of console/appliance is headed) could be simplified more than a mac, still.
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Linux: The world's best text-adventure game.
A beowulf cluster of X-Boxes/PS2s would definitely kick ass though, especially if MS/Sony could afford to eat the cost of users who buy the console and no games. X-Box MSRP is what, $200, isn't it? for a 733MHz processor and some other (currently) mid-range hardware? Sweeeeeeet...
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Linux: The world's best text-adventure game.
My bad, thanks for the correction. That's still twice as much as my guesstimate for the end cost of one of these systems though.
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Linux: The world's best text-adventure game.
The reason I believe you are wrong is the exact same argument you use, namely: yours (and mine) grandparents do not need to learn to use a PC to use the internet/e-mail/recipe-tracking/etc. and they don't need to know how to program in the bash shell or use emacs. Linux can be scaled down and implemented with a simple GUI that hides the guts of the system completely. Granted, for the "geek market" (which includes the likes of us) it would help the marketing of these systems if there was a way to remove the hood and play like nuts. =)
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Linux: The world's best text-adventure game.
My grandma bought a $2000 Compaq (or it was bought for her, not sure which) and as far as I know, she only uses it to e-mail once a month or something. If it were simpler and faster for her to use, she'd use it more, I'm sure of that. (In her case, an iMac might even be simple enough, but it's a bit too late to suggest that now...)
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Linux: The world's best text-adventure game.
But who knows?
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Linux: The world's best text-adventure game.
That is, only if they're aimed and geared properly for that market. I tend to believe most parents would have an easier time forking over $300 for a PS2/XBox over a PC, especially if that PS2 came with a module to allow basic internet/WWW interactivity (including e-mail) and basic functions like word-processing. For the success in this market, however, it is imperitive (in my mind) that these are extremely simple and intuitive with an attractive "movie-like" interface, or non-techies will be just as lost as with PCs.
I tend to forget this like most others, I assume, but there are PCs in the homes of something along the lines of 5-10% of the world's population, if not less.
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Linux: The world's best text-adventure game.
a) This would ruin the console business model.
and
b) That Linux would be too complicated for Grandma, etc.
These would both be true facts if Sony and AOL released a full-featured version of Linux, and I see no reason why they should.
Use Linux for its stability but custom design a simplified user interface to interact with grandma and little Billy. Look at the plans for the Linux-based Nokia Media Terminal for example.
Could hackers bypass the custom interface and do naughty things Sony doesn't want them to? (Like installing "free-as-in-beer" software?) Perhaps. But most people would be willing to pay for reasonably priced software that would extend the functionality of the device. I include myself in that number.
A simplified user interface. A strong Internet client (AOL/Netscape). A rock solid OS (Linux). I've been begging for a device like this for years.
Hipnerd
Hipnerd
Microsoft's dominance in the desktop market has nothing to do with hardware. Its a software issue. There are plenty of cheap hardware solutions with which one can run Linux, but this doesn't change the Microsoft monolopy on desktop software.
Someone you trust is one of us.
Game Cartridges used to have additional hardware, such as memory, to enhance the system resources. It was a hack to distribute some of the cost of the console to the game developers.
Someone you trust is one of us.
By current line of PC cards do you mean the GeForce 3? Because the PS@ seems to be able to handle anything that any OTHER video card can pump out these days.
Im sure this isn't mission critical medical software that lives depend on.
The PS1 isn't reliability tested to live/death uses.
The physical data needs to be read off a spinning, motorized, plastic disc which is read by a laser which is moved mechanically. To top it off, all of these motorized functions are exposed to the elements, i.e. when you open the lid for cdrom access.
It could be used for stuff like ultrasounds maybe.. Who knows.. but definately not in the operating room.
Just think. You could put in your Linux/AOL ps2 disc, and pay Sony/AOL a monthly fee to browse the web and send email.
:)
This is also not stopping you from buying games and playing them when you're not using the web.
There are some really good ps2 games coming out now.. If I had a job and didn't live with my mommy, I might get one
Heh, I think the #1 thing that would make Linux on PS/2 a success is if Mozilla became more optimized for X11 !!!.
As it is right now, the Windows client is much faster and much more optimized than the Linux/X11 client, and probably because that's where most of the development resources went to (Like with NS4.x, the windows client was always more optimized).
I don't get it...why should we shift the hardware monopoly from Intel to Sony ? I can assemble my own machine now to fit my budget and requirements. With the playstation that will not exist. And who says everybody wants to have GNU/Linux as their OS. I may want to use AtheOS.
Also AOHell ? No thanks I wouldn't want that beast on my machine again!!!
Slashdot: Tabloid for the nerds. Stuff that doesn't matter.
Actually it will, the AOL/Netscape/RealPlayer/Shockwave client which was announced at E3 this year (that's what most photos are showing) is running Linux on the harddrive and will come out this fall.
I think not.
http://www.apple.com/macosx/requirements/
Apple recommend 128MB of RAM, though X will boot with less. Of course, as with any *nix, the more RAM you have, the happier it is...
The slowest machines officially supported are the 233 MHz Bondi iMac and 233 MHz beige G3. Some people have got it running on considerably slower hardware.
FWIW, my 500MHz G4 boots OS X in about a minute.
I enjoy my PS2 as a great gaming machine... can't wait till a networked tekken tag comes out.. yer all dead :)
Which is simply this:
AOL find themselves feeling the Microsoft squeeze. MS are now offerring everything that AOL does, built right in. IE+MSN+Messenger etc.
What to do? Well, why not put together a CD, that they spam us all with as per usual; drop it into your PS/2 and bing, you got a locked down Linux box with StarOffice, Mozilla, Evolution, blah blah, all dialing AOL.
~~~~~ BigLig2? You mean there's another one of me?
If Sony were to do this, doubtful since they seem to be ultra-control freaks, they could create the best computer system since the C64. Think about it, a great multimedia machine and the GNU compilers to take advantage of it. I guess I can always dream.
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With Sun announcing their development of a JVM for the PS2 it's going to complete the internet appliance/pc conversion.
.sig
What happens when chipsets like the nForce only cost a few bucks (this will eventually happen)?
This will empower things like Tivo and DVD players and even TVs with great gaming abilities. The Microsft tax will NOT be useful for these devices. So why isn't there a REAL movement for putting Linux into these things? The world WILL need it sooner or later.
I'd like to see it sooner.
Imagine an open console spec for all manufacturers to use as they please...
More
A lot of people who want to see MS lose its market dominant seem to forgot that MS is what it is today for two key reasons:
1) Availability of well designed Desktop Applications for Windows
2) Very good integration between those Application
Yes, it is true that MS done all those "evil" stuff too, but they also worked hard at making better apps that work together across different apps within Windows.
Until when someone comes up with a "killer" app for Linux with the same ease of use as what Windows has to offers, MS will still be the dominant player.
Is anyone old enough to remember that it was Lotus 123 that made the IBM PC popular? If it wasn't for 123, the IBM PC would not be what it once was -- remember that back in early 1981 reviews put the IBM PC at the bottom of their rank, not DOS not the hardware.
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Sig
abbr.
Karma stuck at 50? Add 2-5 inches.. err.. 2-5x Karmas Count to your pen1es.. err.. Karma all naturally and private
I ran X on an 8MB 486 in 1993. It beautifully filled my RAM and started swapping vigerously as soon as I wanted to run an application. (486/66Mhz, Slackware 1.03, kernel 0.99p15)
Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
How many articles per week must we put up with discussing how makes a 'killer linux box?'
Let's face it--due to their very nature, open OSes (Linux included but not exclusively) can be ported to and compiled for just about any chunk of hardware that has enough computing power!
Cal me a curmudgeon, but it just ain't news anymore. Linux can run everywhere. Whee.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Why? Linus says it's Linux, and he made up the damn thing. It's not like these newbie-oriented systems are going to be running gcc, emacs and bash. Probably X, Mozilla, an AOL client, and a word processor (Star Office? A new Sony productivity suite?). Which of those was part of GNU?
The term GNU/Linux, even if accepted as correct for the majority of Linux (which it is not), is not correct in this circumstance. You might as well call it AOL-TW/Linux.
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
Admittedly, you'd need a power supply, but consoles tend to use power pretty meagerly, don't they? It might also be a little bulky, but should be more ruggedized due to being designed at least in part for hyperactive 5 year olds.
What do people think?
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
This rumour has been running around Be community for quite some time now, the only difference is that its rumoured with BeOS/BeIA instead of Linux. Sony its actually using BeIA with E-Villa and BeOS seems in fact was born for something like that, it could finally be the Media OS it always wanted to be. Steve Sakoman(Bes COO) has been flying constantly to Japan lately and rumours of a Sony buyout of Be have also existed...everything very subjective of course(as the Linux rumour is) but it doesnt seem such a strange idea in the end...
Yeah, I screwed up - I admit it. I've made a change, but kept the original in there.
Thanks for letting me know :).
John "Dark Paladin" Hummel
52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
UM what???
PS2 games run bare to the metal. Just because you can run a certain OS on hardware doesn't mean that suddenly all the games for that hardware now use the OS. Using your logic all games that can run on the PC are linux games.
Also, unless there is a HUGE rewrite of all the libraries for the ps2 linux getting a 3d game built for linux to run on the system is going to be hacky if you can do it at all (so I don't think q3a will run or if it does it will run unplayably slow).
From what I've heard the API for the ps2 is difficult to use because you need to program using the ps2 paradigm in order to get a resonable level of performance out of it. I doubt having an OS between you and the hardware will help with performance one bit.
The short stroke is games for the PS2 will continue to run bare to the metal as always. They will not be linux games. Sorry.
"You can now flame me, I am full of love,"
Uh.. where the hell have you been? Search for "Bleem!" on Google. It's supposed to be funny, or so they say.
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Eh.. why? As a DVD player it's pretty crappy, and there are much better DVD players that retail for much, much less.
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Try a Pioneer unit. I got my DV-333 for 200 USD, and the visual quality is far superior to the PS2. It's being replaced by the DV-343, which supposedly has a better picture yet costs the same. It supports VCD and SVCD, even burnt to CD-RW. If visual clarity isn't worth that much to you, there's an Apex player with MP3 support that goes for $130! So, breaking it down, you can either get: a much better quality player for $100 less, or a similar quality player with MP3 support for $170 less! Of course, neither of these players will play PS2 games, but if all you want to do is watch DVD's, there are better options.
I don't deny that people buy the PS2 to watch DVD's, but I think they're not well informed about the DVD quality that the PS2 provides. I watched the animated series Clerks DVD on a PS2 and on my DV-333, and the difference was striking (even for a cartoon!). During scenes with action (like someone moving their arm!), the image would become quite pixelated. Well, not quite pixelated; it's hard to describe. Only half of the frame would be rendered (every other line of the frame), so action scenes have a weird blurry/see-through quality. Even the owner of the PS2 had to admit it was pretty bad.
As for the networking stuff, I don't see how they're going to do it. Few PS2 games out now support anything beyond the standard setup (few even support the multi-tap!), and someone else mentioned the game designer's rule of thumb that only 5-10% of all consoles have any given add-on. Had they included it with the initial shipment of the PS2, I think it would have worked well, with lots of games supporting it. Q3 and UT, two games that could have had a lot of luck with online multiplayer (against PC's and DC's), are already out for the PS2, without support for any networking option.
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Sony lobbied to get the PS2 classed as a entertainment device, rather than a computing device, to save on tax in the EU. I wonder if they'll have to pay money back if, or rather when all this PC retro fitting takes place.
They're already losing money from people who buy the PS2 to use mainly as a DVD player. Why would they encourage people to put a Free OS on it, then never buy anything else from Sony to accessorize it? To make this profitable, they'd have to double the price of the box. As the 3DO proved, even the coolest game consoles don't sell well at $700.
The only company making any profit with personal computers right now is Dell, and they are cutting themselves to the bone to do so. Don't expect Sony to do the same with the PS2.
The PS2 is a game console first, which means it's got a lot of limitations built in. Games are used to these limitations right off the bat, as they'll take the tradeoffs for a very limited compatability problem-- if it works on one PS2, it'll (usually) work on all.
First off, game programmers (of which I am one, and I've got a development box for one of the top name consoles this Christmas at my desk at work) always gripe about lack of RAM. However, we're used to it.
Most unix/linux desktop/workstation applications are *NOT* programmed with a concern for memory. [Embedded applications are a completely different area, but most linux coders are not working on that.] Virtual memory has always been an option for traditional unix development, so the big RAM hogs like X, gcc, and web browsers just run a little slower on older boxes.
On the other hand, the PS2 has 32MB RAM, and I highly doubt there'll ever be any virtual memory. If you want to use the HD (which'll be in maybe 5% of PS2s, tops), programmers will have to explicitly manage all RAM and swapping. That's a huge paradigm shift from traditional unix desktop/workstation programming, which is where 99+% of linux types work on.
32MB of RAM on the PS2 isn't gonna be enough to drop X on it, in my opinion, let alone a ported browser. A ground-up rewrite with a stripped down custom-built GUI (Qt, even though that gives some people the fits) is the only reasonable solution. Plus, the resolution of a TV is just plain lousy. No beans about it. People aren't going to want to use it for reading stuff for long.
Next, there's the market for addons for game consoles has historically been *very* limited. In the games business, one rule of thumb I've heard is that you can assume that maybe only 5-10% of customers will have any peripheral (ram, input, bolt-ons like the Sega 32X) not bundled with the box. Unless Sony sells a PS2 with a HD and a keyboard, you're talking about a very niche market here.
Finally, as I mentioned above, there's a different programming mentality between console game programmers and desktop/workstation types. Game programmers are used to precalculating, preconverting, doing as much work as possible to code and assets long before it gets to the console.
We do not develop on a console, for that console-- we don't run gcc on a PS2. gcc is one of the really bad offenders in assuming it's got as much ram/virtual memory as it wants. We run gcc on a host PC, and use that to cross-compile code. Same with all the art tools, sound/music, etc. There's a ton of work needed to get things done, and consolers are optimized for gameplay, not development.
Shipping a PS2 with "linux" on it means that they'll have to axe gcc (and lots of other development tools, I'm not singling it out), as there's no realistic way they're going to run on the PS2, building for the PS2. Is unix without a compiler really unix? In my mind, nope. I want the power to tweak out anything on my system, and run what I write. Consoles can't do that.
Nathan Mates
but only 500 have been shipped in the U.S. It will be next spring before we can ship more. -Sony Corp
If XBox can be made into a viable platform for a (pc-like) 'desktop' Linux system, it would be a great step forward - and with (I assume) the XBox hardware being a loss-leader, this could very well go a long way towards 'killing' MS.
Or not. Whatever.
.sig last updated Jan. 14, 2000
Maybe he's the one who ported linux to PS2 for his missile control thing :)
Oh shit don't tell me he actually did something good?
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
- Grab a shoe box
- Put a label on it saying "Linux"
- Put some C4 inside and connected it to a big red button saying "Start Button"
"killer linux box"One of the things which is great about making a linux distro for a box like the PS2/Xbox (and possibly NGC too), is that the hardware is the same on all the units, and that means very easy installation for end users... And THAT means, provided it becomes a success, a lot of people might get a good impression of Linux, thus making them interested in running Linux on their Desktop PC's as well. A great thing! ;-)
And even if they not, Linux' sure would get some well-deserved good press
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Greets, Øyvind Berg ~ ËlaC|n
__ elacin
I've heard of other devices using similar schemes. I remember reading (as a Slashdot quickie, perhaps? Maybe ~12 months ago? not sure...) about a Eastern European hospital using an Atari 800 as a data acquisition/display device.
Also, I witnessed first-hand a bicycle shop that used an NES cartridge to aid in wheel adjustment. There was a sensor thingamabob that would measure the true-ness of a wheel as it spun... the sensor thingamabob was connected to an NES cartridge which was plugged into an NES (obviously) that displayed the results on a TV screen.
http://www.bootyproject.org
OtakuBooty.com: Smart, funny, sexy nerds.
Console game companies (Sony, MS, Sega, Nintendo) sell the console at a loss, much like cell phone companies give away cell phones, so that you will run out and buy their games. They receive licensing fees for games that run on their platforms. These fees more than make up for their losses on hardware (well, except in Sega's case ;) If people start to buy large quantities of consoles, but don't buy games to run on them, the business model will fail. At that point, these companies will either stop subsidizing console prices, or will put in protections to prevent anyone from using them except as game consoles.
First off Sony sell the PS2 linux kit of consider this little metric:
PS2 cost to Sony (manufaturing + advertising + support) = PS2_C
PS2 end user price = PS2_S
PS2 Linux kit cost to sony = PS2_LC
PS2 Linux kit end user price = PS2_LS
Assuming:
PS2_C > PS2_S
And:
PS2_LC < PS2_LS
then maybe someone at Sony came up with the idea that:
PS2_LS = PS2_LC + (PS2_C - PS2_S)
And what do you know, Sony does not have to worry about losing money on the PS2 if someone runs Linux.
To Sony Linux will just be another game for the PS2, a big expensive game that comes with extra hardware but as with standard games Sony will use profit from its sale to recoupe the cost of the console.
Yes you will get PS2 Linux CDs in the wild and standard off the shelf hardware can be adapted but that won't have Sony's cool branding that will match the console so more people will buy the Kit from Sony than go through the hassle of ripping them off...
rr
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
The cheapest iMac is $900.
When's AOL going to start sending out PS2s to everybody? I bet you could build a sweet server farm...
A version of (the GPLed) Linux released on the PS2 means that Sony has to give us the source too, which means everyone immediately gets detailed specs on the PS2 hardware. Video game manufacturers don't want this. As a (former) employee of Sega put it, releasing this sort of thing entails support calls, which is an expense Sony probably doesn't want to deal with. And there is the bigger issue of unlicensed game makers, which Sony *definitely* doesn't want. So the PS2 as a Linux PC for the home, supported by Sony, if for that reason only, doesn't sound too plausible to me.
No way! Don't buy a PS2! Sony is in the MPAA and RIAA! Or did you forget already?
...
Need I say more?
The slashdot 2 minute between postings limit: /.'ers since Spring 2001.
Pissing off hyper caffeineated
1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcf
The slashdot 2 minute between postings limit: /.'ers since Spring 2001.
Pissing off hyper caffeineated
1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcf
Is just me or did article some bad english? Most posts on slashdot tho! *LOL* Dictionary Buying!
//
--// Hartsock
Live to Code, Code to Live!
Microsoft Screw You AOL We Own J00!
New MS "Screw you AOL We Own J00" version 6.0 6.0 6.0! It's Easy! Easy! Easy! It's so Easy MicroSoft will Screw AOL for you! Did we mention it's EASY? It's Easy! All your friends are using "Screw you AOL We Own J00" and if you use "Screw you AOL We Own J00" then you will giggle and be happy all the time! It's Easy to use! Not to mention how "Screw you AOL We Own J00" brings people together in a true sense of community! It's Easy! Download today! It's Easy!
--// Hartsock
Live to Code, Code to Live!
How does the current model stop working? Do people stop buying games because they can read e-mail and surf the web? Nope. Sorry.
:)
.. a game console / dvd player that still lets you check some e-mail and surf the web. It's also not going to replace PC's .. but it would help me get the PC out of my living room (where it doesn't belong). All I want is VNC always on in the background and be able to pause the game and switch to my real desktop. Bang!
.. or is that the fatality move?
In the future, reality may disagree with me, but the argument you've made is logically insufficient. Sorry
For me it would be a great device. (Well I liked the indrema better)
Now what would that password be? Up Up Square Circle Triangle
I don't think you understand the point of the article. The idea is that if AOL & Sony want to combine efforts they can make an idiot-proof version of linux. One with just email, web browser and a link to connect to AOL. That's it. Think kiosk.
So if you want to play a ps2 game just start it up with a ps2 game in the tray. Want to browse or send email? Just pop in that in that AOL CD/DVD. This disk would boot linux, but who would know?
The PS1 has a very unimpressive processor (about 486 caliber) and 2 megs of RAM. Fine for some very specific uses, but at $100, it's not all that amazing.
The PS2, on the other hand, is an incredibly powerful box. The graphics chip is not great compared to the current line of PC graphics cards, but everything else in the box screams, especially for 3D stuff (two vector processors). At close to $300, it's a bit pricey, though, and it only has 24 megs of RAM.
-John
It's a fast chip, but it has some brain dead limitations. Its lighting is not perspective correct, which can look very bad in some situations, and large geometry can cause problems if it's not tesselated. Just takes a little extra effort to squeeze good rendering out of the PS2; it's not impossible.
-John
Especially if Saddam Hussein is using them to play that new WTO game.
:)
Bryguy
microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
[custom PS1 solution for hospitals]... it's used to access patient records for waiting room-type purposes. It's definitely not used for anything that is time or life critical.
As we all know, hospitals certianly don't consider patients in the waiting room to be time critical.
HMO's should love this, as they don't consider what goes on in the rest of the hospital to be life critical. Most importantly, and above all else, it reduces costs.
Time-Life would sue, because of use of the term "time or life".
I always wondered how often the PS1s needed to be replaced
I've got a kid who has spent endless hours mastering Spiro 1, 2, and 3. Machine is two years old. Still works great. She's starting to get bored with it. I can assure you that kid-handling of this mahcine and its disks has made me cringe sometimes -- but the machine still works.
--
"Linux is a cancer" -- Steve Ballmer, CEO Microsoft.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
This is great if you want a PC without a keyboard, and a graphics processor that is the supercharged equivalent of an S3 ViRGE. Wow. 4 MB of video ram. That gets you what? 800x600 in 24 bit color! Sweet!
You've got the wrong idea.
Okay, there are a lot of us out here who want decent resolution. But the majority of the public couldn't care less. What the majority of the public wants is a single unit that does it all.
This PS2 idea is good. WebTV sells, but not all that well, I gather. This could sell much better.
Add into a PS2 the ability to do a bunch of basic PC type things like surf the web, email, simple word processing so that when the parents get that PS2 the little Johnny wants so he can play games, they can get some use out of it as well. Besides, now it's educational, not just a game box.
And all you have to do is hook it up to your TV? It'd take off. It really could be a killer app.
Honestly, I bet MS is already planning the same thing for the XBox. I'd be extremely surprised if they don't.
Sean.
Mod this down. I tried to email it, but the email address failed. But I simply couldn't ignore it.
Leviticus, 18:22 : Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
I don't care what your bible says. It makes no difference to me. I don't believe in it and I wouldn't worship the god the commits the attrocities that are attributed to him in the old testament.
They know the facts
"Facts"? What facts? You have no proof, no facts. You have a faith, a belief, but you can't back that up with a single irrefutable fact. You've got your bible, but nothing in it is provable.
Also, don't come telling me that there are lots of homosexuality among the animal kingdom, or that most people are bisexual. I have read documents convincing enough which tell that these are no facts, but just homosexual propaganda, used slowly to turn communities' attitudes towards false tolerance towards gays.
And who wrote those documents? I suspect by your tone that they were written by those who are against homosexuality. If so, they are suspect. If you haven't done the research, then you don't know. Documents from either side are suspect. Read the texts and do *real* research. Until you do, you can have no claim on knownledge about this.
But I'm telling you all, and not only to homosexuals: turn away from your sins and put your faith in Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. Contact your local bible-believing church.
Been there, done that. Then I did some research and decided to think for myself. Got any idea how the bible was compiled? Know anything about the Gnostic Gospels, what they are, what they said, and why they aren't in the bible as it appears now? Ever read your bible and thought about it? No, not try to understand the meaning, but just thought about what was happening in the stories? Try Numbers 31 (if I remember correctly) and read about midianites.
No thanks. As I said, I don't believe in your bible. tell that these are no facts,
engourage all other people to treat gays as normal people
So they aren't normal? Your whole attitude is one I dislike intensely. They aren't normal. They're wrong. They are damned.
Sheesh. I thought your god was supposed to be merciful, kind, and forgiving.
And, as a last note, let me make it clear: I am not homosexual, I'm not attracted to others of my own gender at all. I'm just against using the bible -- or any other religious text -- to support discrimination and loathing of any group of people.
I have nothing against Christians myself. They know the facts and just don't believe them. But I treat them like I treat everyone else. (sigh.)
Sean.
This article seems to be aiming (as it explicitly stated a couple times) at helping the Grandma and the family dog be able to send email and surf the Web via the PS2, and giving average users a cheap alternative to M$ extortion and expensive hardware - does the dog really need gcc? I would imagine that any sort of apps they're going to install would likely be precompiled (remember, this is going to be uniform hardware: every unit identical, so you don't need to compile everything on the machine, you can just grab binary .rpm, .deb, etc). And, well, Grandma and Fido aren't known for logging into SourceForge (I can see it now - "Play dead, roll over, check out CVS..."), though I suppose these days they could probably get someone's password...
You have a good point, it's just terribly obvious - the PS2 implementation won't be for developers, it'll be for end users. But what kind of developer is going to use the PS2 as his platform anyway, except for testing apps designed to run on it?
Not only us geeks care about open standards. Hence why IBM's PC took over Apple's share of the home computer market. And now, unlike in the 80's, PCs are MUCH more well set than Apple was at the time. I dont see the proprietary PS2 replacing my PC anytime soon.
Plus, not a lot of PS2's would be equiped with a HD, so you would only be able to use the stuff on the cd/dvd. Want to change your background? no go, after a reboot your RAM's clean, and you would have to download everything again.
Yeah sure, it *could* be kewl, but it would be new, frightening, different, and it wouldn't have fscking OE. The only people who would be interested are geeks, the main-stream would play it safe. Always has been. Just think about it. A lot of people have started with dos or Windoze 3.1. Then 95. then 98. then 2000. And it has always been enough, for them. Why try something else?
We can only hope that Micro$hit fscks up with XP, only allowing their own progs on it. Then, two things could happen:
1. Everyone sees the true 3vi1 of M$, and Linux is as good as ever to replace it on their PC's.
2. Everyone thinks it will be good, because the always have had windows on their pc. Why not pay for Windoze every year? You can still do the stuff you want, without a lot of hassel...
Let's pray M$ fscks up good...
This sig is intentionally left blank
People buying the GNU/Linux kit will just add to the (large) pool of people who got their PSX2s mainly to play DVDs. Same problem for Sony, same solution - deliver some standout games.
How they input patient information with that crappy gamepad, I'll never know. ;-)
Patient has a history of heart problems: Up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right...
Or should that be, What I have...
Just to provide some details sony is not manufacturing 'linux playstations' it is actually a linux kit with development libraries for PS2 games.
:p ) They also confirmed that they would be able to produce enough to keep up with demand.
Included in the kit is:
-Sony's special blend of linux with all appropriate bits and pieces to support their hardware
-A keyboard and mouse
-a 40G external hard drive
all for about US$280
As you see there is no PS2 included and any Japanese market PS2 will suffice.
As for copies made available during the initial 24hr registeration period they filled their 2000 kit production quota in 8 minutes and took and additional 3500 people on the wait list.
Being less than stupid they decided to open the registration for one more 24hr period. (In which I ordered my kit, nice to live in japan sometimes
So lets do the math 5500 kits in the first registration, and assuming that word gets around the same or more in the 'unlimited' second 24hr registration period. So I'm guess that upwards of 10000 kits will be shipped on the july 17th release date. Pretty good for a 48hr sales period and advertizing in tiny a corner of the japanese playstation site.
Do you think they might make more or just tell everyone else who wants one to go home and shut up?
This post was enhanced by BEER technology! 'Karaoke' is Japanese for drunken loser. -Craig Kilborne
through isp subsidizations, computer costs can now be reduced. if you go to comp usa, you can subscribe to a service and get $500.00 knocked off of your computer cost. since the ps would be a linux-based, mozilla-based, aol network computer, wouldn't they have a pretty good lock-in? a two year contract, a keyboard, and off mom and dad go...
Maybe they mixed up Linus with Guido?
More likely, the writer's kid brother (who the writer consults on all matters geekish) mixed them up.
Anyway, that's the tech press for you.
OK,
- B
--
http://www.bradheintz.com/
- updated
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Oh bother.
The reason MS dominates the market is that they got into the market, squashed the competition, there was no alternative and now most people don't care and don't want to learn something new.
It is hard enough to get people to change software, but this author thinks you can change what software AND hardware someone uses. I don't see this happening for a long time, if ever.
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Oh bother.
NTSC tvs are limited to 640x480....
I don't know how they did it, but my ATI All-In-Wonder spits out 800x600 to my TV. I think if you use S-Video inputs you can get higher resolutions.
On your other point, they're coming out with a hard drive, which I would assume either uses the weird looking expansion slot in back or the Firewire in front. And if the HD is $200 or less, you've still got a kickass system for $500.
I just really, really hope I can use my cable connection with it...
I really hate signatures, but go to my website.
Let me see if I get it: as long as it has a processor, someone will get Linux running on it; no matter it's a toaster, refrigrator, tv, etc.
Steve Ballmer once said Linux is virus, may be it is legitimate. This man really have foresight - Linux would be spreading faster than virus and reside in many devices.
Sorry Steve, I bashed you for speaking ill of Linux. I was wrong.
Actualy some of the cards I bought, will not work under Windows-95A at all, but work fine under Linux; Grandma isn't going to buy a new version of Windows just to check Email with a new card. But she might let grandson install a couple of patches for Linux over the web and rotate the logs while her son mows the grass on Sunday.
I've found that things that are hard to do in Linux are virtualy impossible to do in windows until after I've done it in Linux first. Windows has so much code from BSD in it that after you've read the documention in Linux, you know what to look for in Windows! Actualy if you don't want to use any open-source code on your computer, the easiest way is to just not use the computer. You cn't work with out it in Windows
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Something about Sony's Linux PS2 is puzzling me. Has the manufacturing cost of the PS2 come down enough yet for them to make a profit on the consoles alone?
It's well known that in the console world, Sony, Nintendo, et. al. subsidize the cost of their consoles by charging a royalty on every game sold. When the PS2 was first announced in Japan in late 1999, the people at the Microprocessor Report predicted that both the EE and the GS (the PS2's CPU and graphics chip respectively) would cost Sony about US$350 each to manufacture.
It's also well known that over the 5 year life of a console, die shrinks with the chips eventually bring the console's manufacturing costs down below the console's retail price. Has this happened yet?
If not, don't expect Sony to be making their Linux PS2 widely available (I think only ~4000 were made).
now, as far as Benevolent Spork being the leader, if you were to check your resources, you'd know that evil_spork is the de-facto leader, with benevolent_spork and motherfuckin_spork as members of the Spork Senate.
My friend cyborg_monkey is, as always, his own entity, and not formally tied to any crapflooding or trolling factions.
WIPO, as far as I know, has been eaten by a large elephant... I really don't know.
I have nothing against blatant sensationalism, especially for the sake of pure, fully-adulterated entertainment. But this? You are posting pure shit-encrusted bile. Please, put forth more effort. This is really quite sad.
p.s. - the sporks are not really 'trolls' per se, they are for the most part crapflooders, par excellence, with the occasional troll-post included at whim.
do your homework.
eat shit and die, Bambi!
This is a great idea, which only leaves us with two problems.
1) NTSC tvs are limited to 640x480.... and looking at that on a 27" tv, you can clearly see just about every pixel. Sure, ive seen some pretty intresting methods for avoiding this in ptv apps (such as using a VERY strange color pallate) but, most mainstream linux programs dont have this.
2) The ps2 has no read/write pernament storage (other than the bios) This is a huge problem for storage and temporary files... once the ram fills up, it puckers out. When using this as a desktop system, that would probably happen rather quickly. The cost could be made up by substituting the dvd drive for a cheap cd-rom and installing a hard drive (or using a low-end gfx chipset...)
Other than that, you have a killer pc for $300
This is just more proof that the x86 is a horrible architecture. Just look at how well the ppc (specifically the g4) performs in comparison to the x86... and most people dont optimize their code for it either!! This is why there is (or will be) a software based ppc emulator.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
From what I understand, it's used to access patient records for waiting room-type purposes. It's definitely not used for anything that is time or life critical.
I always wondered how often the PS1s needed to be replaced. After all the trouble that I've heard about those machines, I should have had the presence of mind to ask.
Dancin Santa
Great, you just advanced the patient to the final stage. I don't think he was ready to meet the Boss.
Dancin Santa
Actually, not really. I know of one company that's developing medical software that uses the PS1 as the platform. TV screens are cheaper than monitors. PS1s are cheaper than PCs. And once the software is in the CD tray, the thing never has to be opened again.
;-)
Replacing or upgrading the software just requires a reburn and a few stamps for postage. Of course, these are just clients to a much larger machine somewhere nearer to the IT department.
How they input patient information with that crappy gamepad, I'll never know.
Dancin Santa
Mac OS X doesn't run on a lot of Power Macs :).
THere is also one other potential problem. AOL probably doesn't want to be associated with some of those awful, blood thirsty games that instigate all those teenagers to shoot up their schools. That just wouldn't go over well in middle America.
Ah, I see, that's why they dropped all support for the PC platform long ago, right? Come on. Quite the contrary: AOL helping to turn the PS2 into anything more than a gaming console will help brush up their public image a fair bit.
Besides, Sony was rather clear from day one that they expected the PS2 to be a multi-purpose console, so all this is not really that surprising.
A World in a Grain of Sand / Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Infinity in the Palm of your Hand / And Eternity in an Hour.
Considering how much power is in the box, you could probably part the thing out as a guidance system to foreign nations for thousands of dollars
Which, oddly enough, is why the thing was classified as a supercomputer prior to its entry into the US....
Old age and treachery almost always overcome youth and skill.
You buy your little home terminal (the X-box) for cheap, either near cost or possibally at a loss. This will work as a game console as is. However it will also have the ability to get internet functionality. To do this you'll need to subscribe to Microsoft's service (MSN) and pay a monthly fee. The applications for e-mail, wordprocessing, etc won't actually reside on your system, but will come down the network (Microsoft's .NET).
The moves MS has been making lately (Xbox, MSN parterning with Qwest, the whole .NET software solution, etc) aren't being done in a vaccuum. They are all interrelated.
THere is also one other potential problem. AOL probably doesn't want to be associated with some of those awful, blood thirsty games that instigate all those teenagers to shoot up their schools. That just wouldn't go over well in middle America.
Once the wise men said that all our equipment would collect into the pc at some point, and maybe were not quite there yet, but for now it looks rather to go the other way: all our apliances gets pc funtionallity: clocks, cars, stereos, fridges, propably alot more and now the ps2.
There isn't much like the scent of a fresh harddisk
The original PS came out in a special NETYAHOOZE edition, where the maschine could be coded through a PC(and then you could distribute the games on the internet). Im not much of an expert on the subject, and i dont even know if there ever was any freeware games actually available. But i know that the maschines where pretty different from the original grey PS. Besides being black it featured a port for connecting to the PC, im also pretty sure there was some other stuff to.
:o)
So where im going is, Sony should release a Special Edition PS2. Since they found the resources to do a special edition ps, they should actually be able to do so.
Imagine if the TV ouput is replaced by a VGA/DIGITAL out and their new HDD + broadband adaptor(aka. NIC) was build in. The maschine should obviously run some sort of linux
NOW THAT WOULD BE COOL!!
PS. The maschine should include a engineers commentary track (*got it?*)
"You're going to listen to something I said? Haven't I made it abundantly clear during the tenure of our friendship that I don't know shit? "
The net appliance thing has always been a mixed bag. There are plenty of people for whom it's all they need; an easy box to check mail and surf the web. I think the PS2 running Linux, provided that Linux is hidden from view and the user is presented with a "dummy" sort of interface, could do quite well. But it's not in any way intended for the /. crowd.
Of course I'm not saying Sony would be any better than MS. But I think this could be a pretty good thing, overall.
People are never as simple as their stereotypes. This applies equally to Christians, Muslims, and Emacs-lovers.
True, but you mean to tell me that you would go out and spend $300 on a PS2 and not buy any games at all? Probably not. If you just want a box to run Linux on, I'd just spend the extra couple hundred and buy a real PC and get all the advantages therein.
If it could live on a 100-base-T cable, you could perhaps play MPEG video streams over it from a central server. Just what you want to go with your networked TiVo!
--
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
On the other hand, this looks like a great way of killing Microsoft's X-box: buy lots of subsidized units and put Linux on them, populate whole Beowulf clusters with the things, and otherwise go hog-wild at Bill and Steve's expense.
--
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
First of all, how does will this offer a different/better alternative to Windows than a regular linux box. Linux is providing the alternative, not PS2. Otherwise this would be a story on convergence (uch, I hate that word too) of PCs and living room type electronics. The article also didn't seem to acknowledge one important thing (because he clearly had not taken it into account). That is, the article kept going on and on about how cheap PS2's are not realizing that Sony takes a loss on each unit, and they only take that loss under the presumption that it will bring them income from licensing. Having PS2 as an all arond computer might increase overall videogame sales, but sony will lose a ton of cash on users who don't buy games. Of course, sony doesn't have to lose the cash, if they'd charge more for it......but then the only appealing aspect of using it as a computer is gone. pretty naive
Companies like AOL are in it for the greenbacks period. While a PS2 running a linux varient might appeal us geeks running *inx and spending too much time on /., I tend to doubt the demand wouldn't be nearly enough to gain AOLs intrest.
:P
There aren't all that many Linux buffs with AOL accounts, for obvious reasons. Considering their reputation for utter leetness I doubt many would be eager to sign up just to get their PS2 online. I mean.. who here wants to admit to signing up with aol? *G*
And on the flip side, how many AOLers can hack X11? (well...maybe kde.. *grin*)
Anyway long story short, putting linux on game consoles is something best left to geeks
Whats a sig?
------ cat ~/lamesig >> ~/lamecomment ------
'..that kernel panicked like a nun in a crack house!'
Yes, i'd be thrilled if the Linux CD for PS2 showed up on my doorstep tomorrow. I'd also be thrilled if the XBox comes out for $299 and Sony ships a free HDD/Ethernet upgrade to EVERY REGISTERED owner of the PS2, to make it a cost-competitive opponent to the X-Box and gain customer loyalty.. but lets face it.
IT HASN'T HAPPENED
We all know that linux WILL be ported to the PS2. It is inevitable. We all know there are HDD upgrades and broadband via USB or Firewire at the customer's discretion. This is all posted on Sony's website. Doesn't take a Sherlock to discover this.
I'm willing to bet the big fish at slashdot $1000 that they can't resist the temptation to post on this thread again until it actually happens. This thread has been rehashed what, 20 times in the last year here at Slashdot? Go back to the first posting of Linux/Playstation possibility, and tell me what has changed.
Not a damned thing.
-freija
. echo -e \\04 >
About a month ago, I think. Anyways, it would be cool to have one. It might entice me to actually go out and buy a PS2.
----
Just because a bunch of people believe or do something stupid, doesn't make it any less stupid.
That is not to say that sticking Linux on the PS2 is not a good idea -- I think it's a great idea because the more public exposure Linux can get the better. However, if this did become popular, you are going to find that you now have one proprietary piece of hardware running all these systems, with no real competition unless someone can come up with something similar enough to make it work, without getting sued, and that could eventually lead either to a nasty manopoly (unlikely) or a slow decline due to the fact that the sharing of hardware development for the platform is very limited. In fact, it seems rather ironic to run an open source operating system like Linux on a completely closed-source system like the PS2.
A word can paint a thousand pictures
much appreciated
I'm the stranger...posting to
"Linux can be scaled down and implemented with a simple GUI that hides the guts of the system completely."
In fact, I'm teaching spending July trying to teach senior citizens how to use the Internet, and I hope to find a cache of old 486 machines I could load Linux on and give to them as "email machines". I'm hoping to configue them to boot right into a web browser or email client, depending on user needs. Speaking of which, can anyone recommend a really easy to use web browser or email client for Linux? I know it sort of defeats the purpose of the OS but if I can't make it easy, I'll have to use freedos (freedos.org). If you have any thoughts, you know how to email me...
I'm the stranger...posting to
I don't understand why the trends are to blend all the uses of a piece of equipment in just one apparatus that will not have excellent performance... video game consoles such as playstation and lookalikes does a very well job enterntaining you and your kids killing the aliens or riding your motorbike at 200 MPH. Anyway, if I would want something to play, surf the web, make my appointments and even cook me a meal , I rather buy a healthy computer (1GHZ, 128 RAM, 40 GB HDD minumum) and do everything as it has to be done: the right way
feints within feints, wheels within wheels
This could be the answer to the cry that Linux doesn't have any decent games out for it. With the preponderance of games available for the PS2, you will finally be able to play a wide variety of games using your favorite OS. Also, I wonder how Quake III plays on this? Has anyone tried this, yet?
"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." - George Bush
How in the world would they gain back their losses if most of the people buying their platform were using Free (as in beer) software? They would be screwed. Which is why this will never happen.
"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." - George Bush
The idea of such a thing is ridiculous. By the time they get the thing usable for any kind of pc operation that would be anywhere near close to that of a normal pc, and include the price of keyboards and such, you might as well go to the store and buy a gateway 2000 because you're gonna spend about the same amount.
Death is only the beginning...
excellent idea except the fact that nobody will buy it!!
Death is only the beginning...
This is already being done right now for the PS1...a Russian group called Runix has a PS1 version of Linux in the alpha stages. The beta version comes out in July.
Being a smartass is a much better thing than being the alternative.
I've seen some stuff about a port of NetBSD for PS2 (http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/#suggested-mips), but I don't know if there is some work done...
By the way, they also try to get NetBSD on Dreamcast.
le_machin
I'm sorry, but the PS2 is going to be a dead box in about a year. Sony is betting on there PS1 install base and not the easy PS1 API set that made them console kings. If I was to have a monitor and a keyboard booked up to a console I'd rather have a xbox or a game cube. Might be nice to see yellow dog or linux ppc come to the game cube. That would be kind of fun. I doubt MS would be down with x86 linux on their box ... last time I heard linux was "cancer"
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"