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Microsoft vs. Northwest Schools Part II
sharkey writes "Simple End User Linux (SEUL) has an article about their visit to the ACPE 2002 conference. Microsoft's visit to the conference is outlined, as well as the school districts' attitude towards GPL software and migration issues. An interesting follow-up to an earlier Slashdot article."
It's interesting that Microsoft's auditing process is acting as a catalyst to mainstream linux awareness and possible adoption at the public school level.
They said a lot about understanding the hardships schools face and how we were hurting for funding.
Microsoft will say anything to anyone to get them to buy their products. There will probably be contract agreements where it will be a win win situation for M$, as usual.
May be a different country, but the economics and usability issues are very similar indeed:
Wired talks about it, and there's a lot more info over on Google.
Hexayurt - open source refugee shelter,
"The #2 fear facing schools is the thought that teachers will not be able to use the software. No one is worried about the kids."
nuff said.
Awesome!
Impressions from ACPE 2002
;-^)
:-)
It's been a week since Eric and I went up to the ACPE (Association for Computer Professionals in Education) conference. We spoke with tech coordinators from 25 large Oregon and Washington school districts being audited by Microsoft for software licensing compliance. It's time for an update and some reflection.
All of the districts received a letter from Microsoft demanding a software audit. Steve Duin, a Portland columnist wrote about it in his column.
Before Steve's column schools were calling MS and asking for extensions. They reported that MS was less than friendly and responsive. After the column several things happened.
The Portland Public School switchboard was jammed for two days with calls from Linux users volunteering to come to PDX from all over the west coast to help with software migration.
MS was hit with many angry calls from all over the place. I can only imagine the content of those conversations. Having Duin's column posted on Slashdot.org certainly helped get the word out about what MS was doing.
The Slashdot post came out on Monday. Later that week most of the technology folks from OR and WA were heading to a conference on Thursday and Friday. MS agreed to come and present a special session on the audit and MS licensing on Thursday afternoon. Many of the impacted schools met the night before. There was much solidarity and a realization that if they all stuck together they would have more clout when dealing with MS. There was also a common understanding that this audit would cost districts money and time. Two things in short supply these days. Portland Public schools will devote two FTE to the audit. That's over $100k of money that could go to classrooms and teachers. Needless to say the relationship between these schools and Microsoft had been changed in a fundamental way. No one was talking about using software without paying for it. It's just that when they came face to face with the power an EULA gives MS, they saw things in a different light. MS software in schools was seen as a logistical and financial liability when compared with GPL licensed alternatives.
Now we get to alternatives. There was actually discussion of mass migrations to Linux. The interesting thing is that with current desktops and K12LTSP, it really is an option now. If MS was not willing to flex on demands, several of districts were ready to dump MS software.
On Thursday MS came in with a team to do some damage control. I've never seen anyone more worried or concerned. Quoting, "We never had any idea that there would be a reaction like this. Our two words for today are friendly and flexible." And they were... They said a lot about understanding the hardships schools face and how we were hurting for funding. They let us know that the audits were meant to be helpful and that this was not a BSA audit (yet...). They said that they would meet with schools one on one to extend deadlines and be flexible. I have to admit that they were just as they promised to be, friendly and flexible. They did a great job of disarming the most worried school folks and then hosted an open bar for the rest of the afternoon.
I underestimated the ability of MS to react so well and do such a good job. The most effective motivation for change is pain. MS did everything they could that day to make sure we would not feel any pain.
Friday morning Eric and I did a session on using GPL software in schools. Eric did a good job on covering what's going on with the server end of things and I did a demonstration with our Linux Toaster. We like to stress that in many ways, software is now generic. You don't need to license or even worry about what kind of toaster oven you have at home. The same thing should be true of your word processor and email client.
I was still disturbed about the MS show we saw on Thursday until we started hearing more and more questions about migration. It seems like schools were taking the extra time given them by MS and using it to good advantage. We spent ALL of the Q&A time on migration paths to free software. Eric comes from the business world. I'm an educator. He pointed out to me that the WORST thing that could have come from all of this was a forced, overnight migration to Linux. Having time to do it right is much better. We've been talking with folks now for a couple of weeks and there is a lot happening.
I can't share everything that is in the works right now but there are two areas where we need to focus our efforts for schools in terms of migration:
Support and training... They need someone to call for help and they all need training. This is the #1 issue keeping schools from using free software. They just don't know how to do it and keep it running in a production environment. Anything we do to promote training will result in an increased use of Linux in schools. The good news in this area is that we've moved beyond the awareness level in many schools. The bottom line is that schools see others using Linux and saving money while providing superior service to classrooms. They want to go in that direction but they just don't know how.
End user, ease of use issues... The #2 fear facing schools is the thought that teachers will not be able to use the software. No one is worried about the kids. Eric is now working on a classroom kiosk version of K12Linux. We're hoping to produce a simplistic desktop with few options and just a few icons for basic applications. There are a bunch of desktop improvements that are part of RH 7.3. The Linux desktop is really coming along. Teachers however equate choices with complexity and that is something to fear. We think a classroom kiosk using KDE is something that might be useful in these instances.
More good news... I'm starting to hear from more major vendors who have been getting requests for Linux in school solutions. We're getting quotes from Micron, Dell and IBM for the 65 K12LTSP workstations we're about to purchase for a new high school. Before we had to build everything ourselves.
More to do... Our greatest resource is our local user group. We need to help schools and LUGs around the country make connections. Towards this end we're going to start promoting a July 4th. software freedom day. Sponsored by LUGs all over America, this event will bring together Unix/Linux experts and schools to establish local support connections for training and migration to GPL software.
I'll send out more on the software freedom day later. I hope you'll help get your LUGs and schools together.Paul Nelson
Riverdale School
I also was at this conference and saw/heard the same things and interpreted them the same. My take on the outcome after the Microsoft panel is also the same. Microsoft finally realize that there were lines even they could not step over with retaliation.
A couple of good things should come from this.
First, Microsoft got its hands slapped by its very bread and butter. They were informed that they had stepped too far and society was not going to stand for it. Bear in mind, like Paul said, no one was in favor of pirating or using illegal software. But in an open environment as Schools, who can really regulate everything? In our district we have God control over our machines and dictate all hardware and network decisions, but even then have had to give some leeway on software installs for political issues. If Microsoft works with not against its clientele, there may actually be progress towards decreasing piracy.
Second, awareness is out about the ramifications of illegal software and its impact on schools. This should push Administrators towards policies forcing legal software use. Of course legal software costs money, unless its Open Source
Third, much talk was made about alternatives. This talk will continue and spread as more districts/schools attempt to be more legal and avoid future confrontations with Microsoft. As more adopt Open Source and alternative software, more commercial companies will get involved and provide alternatives to Microsoft platforms.
This may be the final straw that pushed to evaluate their stance, to think that Microsoft may have just slit their throat, and in their own backyard. Of course it was humourus watching the Microsoft reps. kissing up by keeping the hosted bar open for hours after its scheduled shutdown. As if we will forget that quick....
Kevin Stiles
Technology Department
Paso School District
In our district we have God control over our machines and dictate all hardware and network decisions, but even then have had to give some leeway on software installs for political issues.
;)
I prefer to take a more hands-on approach and use "root", rather than a third-party administration product of dubious reliability, scalability, and quality.
--
I Hit the Karma Cap, and All I Got Was This Lousy
Seems to me that they might be open to Open Source as well. Especially since people get confused and mistake Seattle, the Emerald City of truth and light, for Redmond, where the Dark Lord dwells ... ok, so he's really in an adjacent place, but it's still across the giant Lake Washington that's bigger than Seattle is.
There are some firms, Adobe for example, which are more than helpful in donating software and helping with tech problems - they have done a lot for B.F. Day public school in the Fremont neighborhood of Seattle where they're located. Microsoft seems to go between extremes - sometimes they're helpful, other times they're harmful.
-
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
This is and old and known MS business strategy. They let their softs spread freely and then demand license regularization. Companies around the world used to have no alternative but to pay thousands of dollars on licenses because mass migration is expensive, user training on new OS is expensive and many other things. Even thou some years ago linux already existed it was not a so viable alternative, so companies, even knowing Windows is not the best OS out there, stick to it.
:))
It is pretty good to see that this is changing. Microsoft tried to do this but now there is an alternative out there and that alternative is pretty strong and robust. It is good to see that even thou MS is a large company it cant do business like it did years ago because it is not the ONLY out there.
Way to go!!!
Fabio - Sumare/Sao Paulo/Brazil/South America/Earth/Solar System/Milky Way/Universe
http://www.morroida.com.br
Is there a site out there that lists various linux user groups? I'm a BSD guy, but I'm willing to volunteer for the greater cause at hand. :-)
If there are any Mpls/St. Paul LUG folks out there, feel free to email me.
Mike (in the Twin Cities)
mfoverboDONTSPAMME@DONTSPAMMEint287.k12.mn.us
They love to scare you into thinking they're going to press charges and levy fines, but it's just a good-cop, bad-cop routine -- the second the outrage hits, they're a different company; flexible and understanding.
At that point we're supposed to believe MS is a big cozy teddy bear and really wants to help. They've done this more times than I can remember. It's time to walk away from them and not look back...
People shape laws. Not the other way around.
2. Committed volunteers. As the article points out, the LUG was a big help. One of the cool things about the open source community is the freedom and diversity of work. But a pitfall is that it is not organized around a single goal like a corporation. If the Linux community said (i.e., leaders said), we are committed to getting all public schools onto free software and keeping them going, make that your priority, what amazing things could be accomplished? Instead many people would rather work on their own, probably less important projects. I love working on my own stuff just for the fun of it, but there comes a time to put down your own agenda and dig ditches for a greater goal.
I think one of the biggest barriers to getting Linux installed at schools is the lack of software targeted at secondary-school teachers and students. I'm working on writing an open-source, Java-based gradebook application (still in initial stages, so there's no project homepage yet), and I'd really like to see people writing things like gradebooks, educational games, and the like.
--
I Hit the Karma Cap, and All I Got Was This Lousy
This is exactly the problem that schools face. They are looking at options, but except for an initiative at red hat, there is not a strong, coordinated effort from the linux community. Schools are over burdened and cannot afford somebody who is really good to come in and do the right thing. The schools don't need a flock of geeks, they need consistent, reliable support.
Believe nothing -- Buddha
Quoting, "We never had any idea that there would be a reaction like this. Our two words for today are friendly and flexible."
That is exactly the problem. They don't try to decide if it's good or ok or ethical, they try to decide if they can get away with it. If they don't forsee money loss they don't see any reason not to do it.
Science may someday discover what faith has always known.
The problem is that Microsoft's licensing requires the schools to decide NOW, and then locks them up for years. (Right in the middle of finals.) The same is true for their corporate licensing. They have to decide NOW and then are locked up for years.
Desktop Linux isn't quite ready. It's getting close. That's why Microsoft is forcing them to decide NOW. And it isn't really a decision now. Maybe even in a few months. But, of course, Microsoft is forcing them to decide NOW and commit to years.
So they have to choose between Office and Star Office NOW, (and that means 5.2, but even 6 isn't QUITE right.) Or gobeProductive, which is really great on Windows, but isn't QUITE ready on Linux yet, and there isn't enough time to do a proper evaluation anyway. So they have no choice, really, except to commit to Office.
So it's just another monopolistic extortion scam from the company with $40 billion cash in the bank. You'd think that the corporations that are the victims of this licensing scam would recognize what they have unleashed by putting Bush into ofice. Or you'd think that the municipalities with the school districts would be talking to their members of Congress. Education was suyppose dto be the big Republican thing, right? But the first thing Bush did was free up Microsoft do go after --- other corporations and school districts! Is this really the kind of country they wanted when they coughed up all that cash to put Bush in office?
As a high school technology teacher, I'm probably more incensed over the way M$ is trying to blackmail the education system than those who aren't involved in education, as I see first-hand the struggles involved with trying to integrate very inflexible software into the education system. But I'm also a taxpayer in the school district I teach in, and it makes me angry that our school district has also chosen to be a whore to the M$ brothel.
There's a related article over at The Register which exposes yet another nefarious plan by M$ to fleece the public: They are proposing licenses on a per computer or per FTE basis, without regard to whether computer or person runs, installs, or is in any way associated with M$.
I think it would be interesting if those who are sickened by these business tactics were to request from their school districts those EULAs and agreements which govern the use of software in the district. As a taxpayer, you're entitled to this information: If they won't give it up willingly, then surely it can be acquired via an FOIA request (in the states). I know our district has used passage of a $36 million bond issue to outfit our 50,000-student district with more M$ products...exactly what is not needed.
I plan on requesting our district's EULAs through official channels first, then through FOIA channels as a taxpayer. The reason why this situation exists in the first place is the failure of the taxpayers to monitor how their money is being spent.
They did a great job of disarming the most worried school folks and then hosted an open bar for the rest of the afternoon.
I think that says it all.
Karma: Professionally Doomed (mostly affected by inability to keep opinions to self)
- and Big Redmond sees it coming. It's a big bag of buggy, restrictive, expensive, intrusive, insecure software. People have just HAD IT up to their eyeballs with MS. Unix/OS X/Linux is the way out of this MS mess, and people all over the world are *rapidly* waking up to that fact.
1: my 7 year old can compile a kernel
2: he knows how to start X (default is console)
and get to his games AFTER he uses his own proper login
3: he knows what not to open and what to open without having to have special desktops for him, although he has one just so he can set his own "look and feel for himself"
4: he is ONLY 7 years old
If Microsoft wants the audit that bad, and piracy is as widespread (In schools and buisness) as much as they say it is.. then why don't the get their own, specialized (low-paid) auditors. Rewrite the GPL to say that this gestappo can kick down your door and search all of your machines. Seems like the logical choice for Redmond and Co. If the numbers of pirates are that widespread, the fines levied against the offending parties will more than make up for the cost of the auditors.
Oh, wait, that was assuming that MS had respect for it's users. I'm sorry.
if i was a school adminstrator i would hire a couple of Linux Geeks and have them remove Windoze from EVERY computer in the schools and have them install Redhat7.1 or 7.2 or 7.3, then i would gather up all the Windoze CDroms and take a knife or similer sharp instrument and score the data side of these Windoze CDroms, then mail them back to Micky$oft and include a letter telling them where they can put their Software licences (where the sun don't shine)...
It's kind of a sad statement about American schools when one is more worried about teachers learning something than their students. And we trust our kids to these idiots?
I don't know about every university, but where I went, the faculty of education had the lowest minimum requirements for entry.
What's the difference?
Best Slashdot Co
Stupid enter to submit...
Mirror
The same mirror
Being many years removed from the educational industry, I've no idea what they actually need...
Can someone come up with a good list of whats missing and what we need to come up with?
Flame me all you want, but Microsoft reacted the way that any business would when confronted with angry customers. Sun, IBM and others would have reacted in the same manner if they were in MS's shoes.
Never underestimate the power of bad customer support or angry customers!
Attention all planets of the Solar Federation! We have assumed control! - Neil Peart
That's mighty impressive. There's a lot of awfully good people in the Linux world. With a sense of community and pride like they have, who knows what they'll have accomplished in a few years time.
It makes me think. How can Mercenary programmers working for corporations possibly compete with those doing it for the love of the game?
I'm not a 100% Microsoft hater, but it's hard to see them vanquishing a determined, diversified foe like this (who doesn't have to make a profit to continue fighting.) I'm betting my future skill training on Linux. They're absolute berserkers on the OS battlefield!
Hand me that stack of O'Reilly books.
----
Slogan-free since April! We pass the savings on to you!
I can imagine an Apple sales pitch like this: Let's face it, using Microsoft products in your district amounts to letting in a Trojan horse of legal and financial liability. Microsoft regularly audits its customers which is time consuming and costly for schools. Apple won't audit you because we're a hardware company. It's not like you can run MacOS X on a clone - you have to run it on relatively new Apple hardware. Could you use Linux? Of course. But, we think you'll find that the ease of use of the Macintosh plus the support yoou receive from Apple is well worth the small difference in cost of the hardware. Plus, if you do decide to use Linux on existing PC hardware, you'll find that your new eMacs play nice with Linux.
I suggest that K-12 schools get together and lobby congress for a software exemption similar the the following one for sheet music. Problem solved. I can just imagine the tightened sphincters at M$
..." 17 USC 110
"[T]he following are not infringements of copyright:
(1)performance or display of a work by instructors or pupils in the course of face-to-face teaching activities of a nonprofit educational institution...
(2) performance of a nondramatic literary or musical work or display of a work, by or in the course of a transmission,
They stab it with their steely knives,
But they just can't kill the beast.
And I do mean really serious, then one place where the Portland Linux/Unix Group is collecting information is here. I am still waiting for them to contact me, but I am certainly willing.
It hasn't been mentioned in the article, nor in this discussion so far as I can see...but is nobody aware that the computer maker that sells more boxes to the educaton market is Apple?
I realize that many in the slashdot crowd see any solution other than free/oss ones as inherently evil...and that companies with these solutions are engaged in nothing short of extortion and theft...but c'mon. Isn't one of the best options for these schools to simply buy more Macintoshes? Of course it is!
You like your Macintosh better than me, don't you Dave? Dave? Can you hear me Dave?
[They] said a lot about understanding the hardships schools face and how we were hurting for funding.
Yeah, right.
I see... open bar but no open software ?!
what sort of shrink-wrap license was on the beer?
You are correct. Unfortunately "any business" doesn't have monopolistic power, either. The reason we have laws against monopolies is to prevent business from applying normal business practices in a competitive vacuum.
-Sean
"No one is worried about the kids"
After being the victim of teacher strikes (not those ones specifically for me, mine were 5 or 6 years ago in the same region -- the teachers there just can't get along, can they?), and inane school computer policies (like outlawing the use of file manager) I can tell you just how true that is.
Nobody cares about students, most especially teachers and school administration, from my experience, with the exception of the parents of the individual students, of course.
Too bad that unlike most people I learned this while I was in school, rather than as a parent. But then again, perhaps I'll just be more prepared for when I get to argue with administration as a parent. Fun Fun Fun.
[And yes, feel free to say that the strikes are for our own good. Next thing you know I'll be telling you the strikes at the MOT preventing you from getting your license renewed are for your own good too.]
I think this paragraph is key. These schools need GOOD support. No Linux zealots, or computer snobs, or holier-than-though attitudes, for Linux to WIN (slight pun intended) in the school systems.
Okay now why doesn;t the article mention the lawsuit and investigation by the EU agains MS on this exact licensing scheme and auditing process?
Hmm pretty soon MS shareholders will be worrying..
Don't Tread on OpenSource
God! What's wrong with teachers these days. Out of everyone, you'd think that they'd be the king of geeks. Guess with the kind of salary they pay teachers, compared to the kind IT pays; there are no good technical teachers.
Yea, these teachers sound like nin-com-poops. Just give them a desktop with a few icons pointing to a word processor, web browser, and office suite. What else do they even want to use it for. Oh, and don't forget to put a sticky note on each screen saying, "It's alright the slashes go the other way. It's suppose to!"
Freakin scared of options and complexity. No wonder our public education system sucks so bad. In college at the CS departments, most are like learn UNIX/Linux or fail out the deparment trying. I know that public schools aren't but come on! You click, the abi-word icon. "Click" it you moron. How different is that from Windows. "Click." I said "Click!". Oh, and no don't save that sh*t in fuc*ing doc format. Save it rtf. OMG, an open standard that all word processors can use! Who'd think.
But I guess when they don't see that [start] bar at the bottom. They'll start to panic. What's this foot/gear looking thing? I better not click that. Where's a 1-800 number to call to be on the safe side.
nin-com-poops
Redhat should produce a distribution targeted for classroom computers. There shouldn't be any "options" for software install or anything remotely confusing. It should have a standard and automated install that install the basic packages for running a effective computer in the classroom. The desktop icons and panel icons should also be catered to a educational environment. Ex. Obvious icons to apps like Galeon, gnumeric, abiword, etc.. Their names shouldn't be used either, the icons should communicate what the programs are. I think Redhat could get a rock rolling in the school districts if such a "educational" distribution were to be created.
Perhaps Microsoft is learning something from their interaction with NW school districts. Even better yet: It appears that school districts have learned something too.
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
I just moved into my town a little over two years ago, and learned shortly after moving in that the School District had just launched a major effort to completely overhaul their IT infrastructure. The bill was enormous as the district opted for MS products across the board.
Interestingly enough, it turned out that the guy in charge of the whole implementation, was one of my best friends. A truly brilliant guy, he has always been firmly entrenched in the world of Novell and Microsoft. When I told him, that they really should be looking at Linux for the file, print, and web services he immediately began to recite so much recycled FUD I thought I was talking to Bill Gates himself. Myself and another friend of mine spent hours debating Linux and other open-source solutions, and in the end he conceded some points, but was still largely unmoved.
Well, to make a long story short, he called me last night to tell me that the bill for the School work was getting a little too high for their budget, and they were shopping around for vendors with some Linux experience. His boss, who's even more Pro-MS, told him that they can't lose this contract and that someone needs to "ramp-up" on Linux fast.
We install Linux on his box tomorrow! When it comes to the education market, cost is king.
"The words of the prophets are written on the Slashdot walls."
After reading this comment, is it possible that a movement like this on a larger scale could be organized. Other school districts could benefit from something like this before M$ shows up on their doorstep.
This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
It's a basic principle of business - and also, strangely, con artists - you're better off taking a little off your customer/mark over a long period, maintaining a positive relationship for an extended period, rather than taking them for all their worth once and never hearing from them again. You want them coming back, asking for the privilege of handing you more money.
In the business world this is of course, achieved through providing quality products at a fair price acompanied by good customer service.
In a con game, this is achieved through convincing your mark that you are acting in his best interest, and if that deesn't work you can always try threats and extortion.
Microsoft seems to have made a business decision that it is more cost effective to derive funds through threats and extortion rather than by providing a quality product. Before you dismiss this as being an overbroad accusation, consider the following.
In the early 1990s Steve Balmer was quoted as saying that "Software Piracy is a critical part of Microsoft's Business", the reasoning being that if those who couldn't afford Microsoft products, pirated them and their use of the software increased their efficiency in business and otherwise, they would become more profitable both personally and in business and be able to afford to pay for upgrades to the software, so Microsoft would proffit through a somewhat obscure customer aquisition technique.
In the Mid 1990s the BSA began to take major steps to try and curb software piracy through various threats and lobying for new anti-piracy legislation.
Then, in the late 1990s and now, Microsoft has become dissatisfied with collecting from those who illegally use their software. Now they are seeking out organizations who use their software legally, and have always acted in good faith, singling them out, causing them expense and time which they can not afford, above and beyond that which they have already budgeted to legally purchase the software in question.
Is it really a suprise that these faithful customers are now objecting and seeking other alternatives? No. I think not.
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
Sorry, school board. We thought you were villainous Al Queda terrorists. Please accept our humble apologies and we offer you this 10% discount on Microsoft products already installed on your machines.
The teachers will have trouble learning quickly enough to keep up with the kids.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
One of the big issues isn't running Linux, but using all of that already-paid-for Windows educational software.
...).
The performance of WINE is going to be a major lever in moving schools to Linux. If it can be shown that they can use most or all of their existing, paid-for (proprietary) software like Reader Rabbit, Carmen Sandiego, etc. then the migration will be that much easier.
Yes, GNU software is better. However, trying to get them to jump 100% from what they ahve to GNU is going to have one major speedbump -- and it will be made from the pile of existing software that they paid for and still works.
Step #1 is removing Windows, MS Works and MS Office and replacing them with Linux and OpenOffice (or KDE Office, or Gnome Office, or
Another step would be a good, reliable list of Windows Educational software and how it works on WINE. (Heck, most of it is still Win 3.1 compliant!)
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
The next day MS went back to their usual two words, monopolistic and hostile.
As the IS Manager for a K-12 school system that uses Linux for our main servers, I really see the advantage of it over NT. Also, I can see using KDE + Mozilla + Star/K/Abi Office for business classes and office PCs. The problem is what do you use to replace all the curriculumn and remediation software like Plato, Abacus, Destinations, Accelerated Reader/Math, STAR Reader/Math, etc.? There aren't any open-source or Linux-based alternatives that I'm aware of.
On the school office side, what do you use to replace SASI/Pentamation/WINSchool/etc.? for student management, grades, attendance, etc.? What do you use in the libraries to replace Follett?
These are all questions that need to be answered before many school systems would even consider switching. Until there is a good answer for all of them, it isn't feasible to switch away from Microsoft and/or Apple.
Jason
"FORMAT C:" - Kills bugs dead!
Most schools have a PTA, maybe it's time they have a LUG too. :)
As a low-level admin at a K12 district, I was pushing Linux, to what appeared to be deaf ears, until a couple of events took place, which sparked a renewed interest in Linux. As a result, we now have one of our webservers, two firewalls, and a proxy server all running Linux. And I can say that as a direct result of:
1) The greatly improved security and performance of the machines when Win2K server was wiped from them in favor of Linux, and
2) The action up in Portland, and Microsoft's generally jackbooted-thug-like behavior toward schools right in the middle of a major budget crisis
We will be headed more and more toward OSS in general and Linux in particular. And our district is by far not the only one. I hear from the other local districts and guess what? They are doing the same thing.
M$ has shot itself in the foot. It is possible that they can get some educators drunk at a conference and buy a little forgiveness, but how many people do you think were there in the context of how many people are dealing with Microsoft audits now? Not too many. And when Microsoft alienates the education market, they don't just piss off some administrators: if and when those administrators migrate some or all of their services and equipment to OSS, the effect inevitably trickles down to the students being educated in that district. The last thing Microsoft wants is for high school students in the process of making college choices to see the superiority of OSS to their own crufty product, and make decisions based in part on that information. But that is just what is happening. So the events going on right now will have ramifications well into the future. Count on it.
political_news.c: warning: comparison is always true due to limited range of data type
I've had Linux (RedHat) installed on my box for about a year, and it has served me well in my first year of college. I type up documents, research online, and program with Linux. I also share my pc with my bro, who's 8, and he was able to adopt the system just as quickly. I just tell him "here's your user-name and password" and he goes from there. He enters his info, selects his desktop (between Gnome and KDE), and he goes from there by himself. Today he mostly plays those KDE games, chess, and Chromium BSU, but I know the OS will serve him well as he progresses through his education. ...now I'm not imposing this entirely on him as my pc dual-boots w. win2k, but he still prefers Linux. (gee, i wonder why?)
So in the end, I'm tired of hearing of "adults" claiming Linux is very hard to use and "is not ready for the desktop", because it is a very functional OS and you don't have to be a programmer or SysAdmin to be able to use it. If these school districts decide to migrate to Linux, MOre power to them! Their students will be more computer literate than the students strapped down to M$.
$cat
Sure they can afford more PR hits. Come on. They're Microsoft. Do you really expect a few PR hits to have any significant effect in the face of overwhelming advertising power and market dominance over most (admittedly mostly clueless) users? These people have come to expect PR hits and controversy as part of the industry. "That's just how it works." Microsoft wouldn't want to raise their expectations, now would they?
I used to bulls-eye womp-rats in my pants
I helping the technology guy in a local school district replace the all the NT servers in the schools system with Linux boxes. Win desktops will still rule, but the movement has started.
They're saying that they're not worried about the kids because they don't care, they're saying that they're not worried about the kids because kids can adapt VERY easily to new software.
Even with M$ software, it's frequent that the kids are teaching the teachers. My old high school is one such example... Even the head of our business department (The guy who ran the network) was outshone by a number of students.
What set him apart from the technical director for the district was that he at least knew what his limits were, and could accept the fact that he was best off accepting help from his students than trying to restrict them. On the other hand, the technical director for the district killed half the computers in the school by doing a mass upgrade to Win98 - Without testing it on one machine first.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
You just described a site license: you have the right to install as many copies of windows as you want in your company/school. Microsoft won't sell that though, they will sell one license per comptuer, which is not the same. (with a site license up to so many seats, if you can prove that some machine runs linux it doesn't count)
Of course since it is impossibal (for practical purposes) to buy a PC without windows today, I think they have a good arguement in court "I'd like to call to the stand Mike Dell who will testify that this model of comptuer was never sold without windows".
Most of the country, not just some corporations (vastly more corporate cash went to Algore) voted for Bush. We aren't happy with him now, though.
Jerk.
So they have to choose between Office and Star Office NOW, (and that means 5.2, but even 6 isn't QUITE right.) Or gobeProductive, which is really great on Windows, but isn't QUITE ready on Linux yet, and there isn't enough time to do a proper evaluation anyway.
So how much time is Microsoft giving them to do an evaluation of XP before they have to sign on? Or of the next version of Office? The license they are pushing is for future versions of products. This will be even more explicit with the upcoming subscription model: You will have no opportunity to evaluate upcoming products before your existing installed base is declared obsolete.
This is the same FUD as the user training issue. "We can't move off of Windows because we'd have to retrain all our users." But they all moved from Win3.1 to Win95 didn't they? Does anyone really believe the difference between (for instance) KDE3.0 and Win2K is greater than that? In short, don't apply a higher standard to the Linux offering thatn to the Windows offering.
Nope, no sig
I'm from the TriCities Linux Users group in Richland, WA, a mere 3 hours down the road.
I will gladly volunteer my time to this project. Not Just weekends. Not just a couple of hours here and there. I'm a unix system administrator with about 5 years of solid linux experience. I have experience in educational systems (I learn and admined linux at a university).
Please contact us. Our mailing list can be found at www.3clug.org.
I might suggest you see if there are volunteers from the OSDL (Open Source Development Lab) right there in Portland.
I would also suggest a good leader for this. This is going to be a lot of "heads" arguing back and forth, and having a "this is the way it's gonna be guy" is gonna work best.
You will have the people to do it. Just ask. We will save your school district money. We will make it work. You will not feel forced into a companies bottom line ever again.
--Doug Nordwall
-- Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him? --
Thats what they are in school for.
Teachers on the other hand, their job is to teach, you cannot properly teach something you dont know yourself. Teachers need to be trained.
I worked as an instructor in the school system teaching computers when i was still a student.
The students CAN be the teachers if they need teachers so bad. The students can also TRAIN the teachers.
However my school was small (less than 100 students)
In a big school, Its not as realistic
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Their first move was to appear sorry, smooth over the tense situation then, MEET WITH EACH SCHOOL ONE ON ONE.
Diffusing the group is their primary objective. Once this is done, they can continue to manupulate the ones in charge into bad contracts.
PR 101 in action here, I am surprised that these two did not see it coming.
Blogging because I can...
If I were you, I would write my applications with the Schools Interoperability Framework in mind, so that it can communicte with other programs run by schools.
Even though M$ became somewhat less agressive, the basic problem still exists: Apparently because of a lame EULA on as few as one computer, they can come into an organization and poke around in all of their systems, even ones running Linux or other non-M$ OS's, perhaps even affecting real time mission critial applications, and cost the organization hundreds of thousands of dollars. And this might even be true if the M$ software was ever installed on one computer but no longer is! Something needs to be dome about such an insane EULA!
Dumbass, it's the schools that are hurting for money. Learn english and grow a brain you linux-loving fag.
Do you have a source for that? I have long thought it was obvious that MS profited from piracy, probably deliberately, but it would be nice to have unassailable proof of that.
Of course legal software costs money, unless its Open Source :-)
This is a common misconception, and I think it needs to be addressed somewhere here. Although the bulk of open-source software is free of cost, not all of it is. Likewise, a lot of open-source software is free, in the GNU spirit of the word, but again, not always. Finally, not all free software is free of cost. In otherwords, open-source != free-of-cost != free. They are all different concepts with sightly different meanings.
This is the real issue: the power microsoft has over you, once you start using their software (and agree to their license in doing so). It's not about Microsoft selling bad software that crashes, it's not about the price of the software in the shop, it's about the price you pay later, when you have to rely on Microsoft to alter their software, when Microsoft presses the rights the license gives them, and when you realize that because of undocumented formats your own documents are yours no longer.
The arguments of that peruvian congressman apply in a much broader sense: it's not only states who can't afford to be subjected to the whims of just one corporation. Also his argument considering costly migration is valid here too: if migration is costly now, well, it will only get worse later, and the more you depend on microsofts continued service, the more they can demand for it.
And finally the schools should realize, that while Microsoft may be nice about it now (in face of an unexpected reactions) the license gives them the right to repeat the exercise any time they want, only then they will probably pick one school after the other (divide and conquer). They are at the mercy of MS, and will continue to be so, as long as they use their software.
"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself." -- Bill Hicks
I remember back when I was in school we had big problems with comptuers. Seems both the macs and the PCs were single user systems, and so students would regularlly, and intentionally change something on the local disk. (the stupid ones just deleted something critical, the "smarter" ones changed something subtile that you didn't even notice for a while. Remember, these are teens going through the worst years of their life from an honesty standpoint.
Linux by contrast was designed from the ground up to be a multi-user system. Give someone a login, and they get access to their files, and only their files. They can run programs, but only the ones allowed by the administrator. (it is fairly easy to mount home noexec, and move programing students to a different disk)
I graduated in 93, so win3.1 was the latest windows, and the macs were m68k. things have advanced some (windows 95 is a little better for multi-user, but it still sucks compared to linux when you cannot trust the users)
Remember, these are students, not employees. They are immature, and untrustworthy. (I wasn't, and I was one of the more honest students)
Before joining the K12LTSP mailing list, now K12OS hosted by RH, I was on the LTSP list on and off for about two years. Eric (with some help of others) has taken RH, grafted LTSP to run with it out of the box, included every educational app set up to run by default, and all the scripts anyone asks for. I am continually amazed by this man's diligence and common sense. Oh, and I changed my sig
Put identity in the browser.
As mentioned in the article, the biggest concern about Linux in schools is support. Somehow, I don't think telling them that Larry over at the local LUG said he'd help out if you run into trouble would go over too well with the administration (assuming the debate even gets this far). It would seem that if there were an organization like the AAA that offered emergency support, training opportunities, and instructional publications all for a low annual fee, regardless of what kind of Linux boxes/boxen you have or where you got them, a lot of the reluctance to switch to Linux would be removed. (I know that there are some small companies that do this sort of thing, or at least there were during the .com boom, but I'm thinking of more of a LUG-for-hire outfit.) With the current situation in the Northwest, the stage seems set for a few of these organizations to spring up, eventually merging into a single nationwide Linux support organization. Anyone have any venture capital they need to get rid of?
Here's a key thing to think about IMO, a lot of the programmers at Microsoft are not the mercenaries we make them out to be. Don't blame the sins of the company on the fellow propeller heads working there.
A lot of them are working towards making a better product but their ideas may not be "economically feaseable" or "slated for the next release". Some of them just love programming and to get paid for it...heck that's "nerdvana".
Some of them are working on the development tools, which IMO beat the heck out of anything out there in the Open Source community (Although JEdit comes close).
BTW People had the same arguments about Apple in the late 80s and early 90s. "How can the Macintosh lose when we all care so much about it."
Plus a lot of us (by us I mean me unless anyone else feels the same way) are working with OSS simply because it's "fun" and we're not out to change the world. I could care less if Linux overtakes MS on the desktop or servers. I'm more concerned about the computers that I work with actually WORKING and making it more fun for me to work with them.
"For a successful technology, honesty must take precedence over public relations for nature cannot be fooled." -Feynman
Nobody think that an open bar here and an "I'm sorry" there will stop Microsoft from continuing to target the school systems.
They are vicious, ruthless and come at you over and over again from different directions each time until your tired and will do anything to just make them go away. Be ever vigilent.
"What the hell is an aluminum falcon?"
There are several factors that have lead up to the current state of affairs for most school systems, take mine for example.
In the school district where I live (and my kids go to school) the "kids" were bringing in bootable linux systems on CD, and finding machines hooked up to the admin side of the network. They would boot the CD and start to poke around the network. This caused a panic in the school system, and county networking group.
The school system and county do not have the budget to hire top gun network people with innovative ideas and a fresh perspective. They try to do the best they can with what they got, and meet the needs of an ever expanding requirement to provide everything to everybody.
Some teachers have been doing thiner jobs for a long time, many teachers are not technical by nature. They are capable of learning, but not inclined to. When was the last time that the majority of readers of this site felt inclined to learn a new skill (that you had no interest in) because it was forced upon you as a job requirement.
Some of the "kids" in these places could setup and maintain the Linux systems they need, but the problem is that most lack the maturity to be trusted with critical infrastructure, and there is a lack of qualified staff to supervise thier activities.
So what you end up with is an overworked paranoid staff the sticks with what they know, teachers that are not computer literate (though no fault of their own) and kids that probably know more about warze and Hac0r t00lz then the staff dreams in their worst nightmares.
It comes down to money! If the schools want modern technical systems, they need to have money to do it. You want teachers that are qualified to teach and be computer literate, salaries have to be raised, plain and simple.
MS squeezes blood from the turnip because they are the least common denominator in this equation and they can.
The road to open source in the school system will long and hard fought. MS has a lot more smarts then we are giving them here so do not count them out just yet.
There's really quite a bit of educational software out there. Take a look at the Seul/Edu Educational Application Index for a listing of over 440 educational apps. We're in the early planning stages of creating an ISO of selected educational software to make it as easy as possible to get Linux systems up and running in schools. If you'd like to help, go to the SEUL/edu home page and subscribe to the mailing list.
The phrase "They said that they would meet with schools one on one to extend deadlines and be flexible" is exactly how they cut the legs off of every opponent who stands between them and more money.
They do it one client at a time, on their own schedule, at their own convenience and without anyone being able to tell anybody else of what "deal" they got.
This is a company that doesn't publish a price list, remember?
How does any single school know how good a deal they got? They don't.
And being one school places them in a bad bergaining position. Certainly far worse than if they could ALL meet M$ and, uh, negotiate.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
It's their business to screw every last penny out of their customers - after all they have a monopoly.
This is why any sanctions placed on Microsoft will simply continue their dominance.
Deleted
If OS X learns to play nice with Linux a school could deploy a network of Linux boxes and eMacs and use a lot of the same software on both... an eMac with XDarwin should be able to run all of the software on the Linux boxen (after a recompile).
That way a school could use cheap linux boxes in labs and use eMacs for the school paper and art classes and other places where proprietary software is needed.
It would be a good idea for Apple to team up with Red Hat and come up with a plan for a Linux/Mac system that would allow schools to keep using thier old intel hardware.
There are 10 types of people in this world, those who can count in binary and those who can't.
Organizations should really get a grip when it comes to IT. Support should not be a problem.
They need to change their whole relationship to computing systems. Folks, it's just plumbing for the 21st century. And despite what the slashdot denizens belief, it's not that hard to learn. And Larry down the street could probably do a credible support job, if so trained. It is not brain surgery.
I wouldn't expect schools to tolerate Kohler barging in perform spot inspections of toilets or faucets. Why they do it for MS is beyond me.
Why did Microsoft shoot its self in the foot? It is because they realize they are a monopoly. They need to boost profits some so they decide to audit the schools. The schools have to pay up since they are the only real business in town (monopoly thinking!).
They were suprised to find out that the schools were willing to consider other alternatives.
(They also would like a big long contract to lock in the schools for a long time, but because of monopoly thinking they went about it the wrong way.)
It is an extremely one sided system- as they unethically designed it to be (1). As many have pointed out, the system is set up to make you feel you cannot possibly fight it, given the unacceptable risk if you lose.(2) However, if you can find other cases where people have fought, and you see how they did it, you might have hope.
People need to know how bad it is for schools. Example: Slashdot on Microsoft / BSA vs the LA School District, (3) where "hundreds" of unlicensed copies were found. the threat was $150,000 fine for each copy of a $100 per license product. ($100 at best. 1/3 was MSDOS, and schools get very good rates). They "negotiate" down to a $300,000 total fine, and the school district probably felt very grateful for this kindness of the BSA.
This is a 150,000% fine negotiated down to a 1,000% fine. (or 1,500x down to 10x). How does the BSA get to levy fines so out of proportion to actual damages? Yes, illegal copies are a crime (as is speeding), but the LAUSD wasn't running a mass piracy operation. Assuming that "hundreds" = 500 copies found, then the LAUSD had found roughly 1 copy per school, or 1 copy per 120 employees. The BSA got to treat the LAUSD as if it had found widespread felonious behavior rather than a few years worth of a few people deliberately or mistakenly making copies. No proof of bad intentions needed.
Extraordinary fines should require extraordinary proof, but instead the BSA has you do all the work, and even if you are entirely innocent you can still get hit. Unless a mistake can cause extraordinary harm, you don't usually get to treat mistakes like a felony! What makes the BSA so special? They get to threaten fines in line with fines for damage to life and health. Is software piracy that much worse than discharging toxic substances into waterways (max fine $125,000)? Misbranding a drug in interstate commerce (max fine $100,000)? Violating the Sherman Antitrust Act (the fine listed in Section 3571 (d) is "not more than the greater of twice the gross gain or twice the gross loss" caused by the conduct...)?
The LAUSD is not a happy ending story- but this current story might be. A collection of all cases like it would be useful for anyone just receiving a dreadful BSA / Microsoft letter. The site should be part of a high-Google-rank site, so that it is easy to find (for non-technical folks). The database should also have easy to find links to all user groups, by geographical areas, so that anyone can quickly get advice / quotes / support.
(1) Because a good ethical system (think Categorical Imperative) includes consistency in applying rules. The BSA would never accept their rules applied to themselves: imagine a Software Consulting Association sending audit letters out checking for late payments to consultants. If you've paid a consultant more than 30 days late, you get fined 150,000% of the daily rate.
(2) You'll fight a traffic ticket because you can afford to lose. What if the original ticket was $100,000, with a "negotiated" fine of $1,000? This is extortion, not a negotiation- you'll accept whatever the court says. Not to mention if *you* had to show that you didn't speed, even a little bit, and lack of evidence = proof of guilt. And it took a minimum of 5 days in court and they get to dismantle your car and replace equipment to test its maximum speed! That is what these audits are: time consuming and they can place programs on your system.
(3) Also see Inside the BSA (2/02)
I am currently a junior @ Tualatin High school, i am currently in a classs called "networking" which we go around and fix teachers copmuters when they go down. what i'm wondering is, is there any good grading solutions for linux? Currently we are thinking about either replacing the pc's we have with mac's and use the pc's in a linux lab setup. But what i would really like to see is the pc staying on the desktop and M$ out. We currently use a program for grading/attendance called GradeQuick which does not come with a linux version of the program. Are there any opensource solutions for this or a grading program which is linux friendly?
I'm wondering why we even need computers in grades K-6. I can't really see how it helps the learning process; I and generations before me did just fine without computers (the first classroom computer in our school came when I was in the 6th grade).
I can understand giving the teachers computers for tracking grades, lesson planning and such, but I think it is not appropriate to use it as an educational tool for young children.
One should learn to do basic skills -- reading, writing, arithmetic, social skills, arts -- without the use of computers. You will get a much deeper understanding this way; you will be able to solve problems much quicker.
I think it is ridiculous that grade schoolers are being made to write reports using computers. Perhaps using the internet for research is OK, but with a computer the student doesn't learn spelling, grammar, or penmanship because the comptuer does it all for him. Use the computer as a reasearch tool, but write the final report by hand. You can't learn to write by typing.
Once you learn these basic skills, then (and only then) should you use the computer. Granted, when I was that age, computers weren't widely available, but we weren't allowed to use calculators until algebra, and typing was prohibited until you were an upperclassman. If the teacher couldn't read your handwriting, well, that was YOUR problem and you got an F.
A computer is a tool, but we're teaching our kids to use them for crutches because we're too lazy to teach them how to do things for themselves.
Give me my freedom, and I'll take care of my own security, thank you.
I browse at 2+, so your reply showed up as being in direct response to the guy's 5 post, not the 1 post to which you actually responded. Someday I will learn to always hit the parent link before responding to a reply...
I still think my second point applies. Children will not form strong opinions in response to facts unless they see their role models:
a) evaluating facts
b) expressing strong opinions about them
In general, people don't evaluate facts, and don't form strong opinions. They have to be taught to do so. If the teacher were telling the students 'have the same opinion as me or I will fail you' or even telling the children 'have this opinion', I have a big problem with that. Telling them "these are the facts, and they lead me to this strong opinion" is a good thing.
I don't see him saying he indoctrinates them. He informs them of MS marketing practices that he thinks are bad, and tells them he thinks they're bad. In my experience, teachers like that respond well to arguments against their positions.
In the county where I live and attended school, when computer science classes where first offered, they were taught by a handful of math teachers. Most of them did not have a background in programming or designing a computer science curriculum, yet they took the classes and taught them the best they could.
Unfortunately, they quickly gravitated to Visual Basic. The reason one stated to me is that it was an easy language for him to pick up, and it allowed the students to see quick results.
Now, the majority of the local school systems are solidly entrenched in Visual Basic as the primary tool that's used in all the high school computer science classes.
I recently ran into one of my old teachers, and I brought up the subject of Linux and open source software. He had no interest in even discussing it. He says there are plenty of VB sites on the Net with source code provided, and that Linux will never be be an option in the school system because he can't run VB on it. End of discussion. He even started to get a little hot-tempered with me when I tried to tell him about Kylix and some Borland products that were available for Linux.
These teachers all have the ear of the school board. And they seem to speak with a united voice in favor of Microsoft, regardless of price.
So, if the Justice Dept. hadn't settled, they could've gotten a restraining order on Microsoft's sales division? Jesus, people. Not everything in this country revolves around Microsoft.
No, but when one is discussing Microsoft's behavior, it is not at all unreasonable to point out that the Dept. of Justice's new willingness to let Microsoft off with a slap on the wrist and effectively snatch defeat from the jaws of victory to the benefit of of a convicted monopolist (with said conviction holding up on appeal), has obviously had a detrimental effect on deterring Microsoft from unethical behavior of this kind...which the suit was effectively doing for a number of years even prior to the initial judgement.
Microsoft's gloves really didn't come off until after it was clear they had successfully bought the current administration, and the DOJ, off and would effectively walk away scottfree, criminal conviction notwithstanding.
So, while the world does not revolve around Microsoft, this story, and this discussion, certainly do, and contrary to your implication, the comment you responded to was not at all out of line, or out in left field, in pointing out how the government's new unwillingness to enforce the law against a convicted monopolist has encouraged the sort of strong-arm tactics we have been reading about, and discussing, here.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
I don't see him saying he indoctrinates them. He informs them of MS marketing practices that he thinks are bad, and tells them he thinks they're bad. In my experience, teachers like that respond well to arguments against their positions.
Do you still feel that way if the teacher "informs" them that Microsoft produces the best software in the industry, and that's all anyone should ever use? Or "informs" them that Open Source software is used for criminal hacking, and that it should be avoided? Or that OSS is generally inferior to Microsoft?
And again, I have to ask: Is it therefore OK for a teacher to give their personal "opinions" about religion and the fact that everyone is going to hell that is not a Christian?
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
FWIW, Bill Gates never said "640k is enough for anyone" either.
Both are just completely made up and people believe it because they want to believe it, not because its true.
Stop being sheep.
Showing up is half the battle in any volunteering effort. If they were getting that many calls, I am sure they could work out recruiting the perfect match to get the job done. Those left over can truck on down to the schools over in the next district and start the migration there, and so on.
I was happy to read about such enthusiasm!
Mirror
Mirror
bogus 1010;freethepress;UN:free_ny_times PW:freethearticles
If he produces facts as to why that's the case (for MS software or OSS), I do think it's a good thing. Perhaps then the students will follow up on dissenting opinions and learn the facts.
The religion issue is tougher. I must say, though, that I don't believe in the supernatural, but my children have been to Sunday school. I want them to see both sides of the fence.
In fact, I agree that strong opinions like we are discussing should be kept out of elementary school, but I feel they are entirely appropriate for junior high & high school. Young children tend to be followers, and should be taught to investigate and form opinions themselves. Giving them a strong opinion is more likely to make them have the opinion rather than examine the process by which you came to have it. Older children tend to rebel, and can be spurred into research in hopes of proving the teacher wrong.
In my mind, Microsoft's created a segment of computer users who depend on wizards to solve problems. This has led to people with computer educations that tells them how to do something as long as it the job has a fairly linear set of requirements. Front Page allows you to build web pages won't teach you HTML. Office wizards lets you write papers, but it won't teach you how to use your computer (or any other computer, or 95% of office's features), and too often there is confusion between "productivity (doing work)" and "education (knowing what it takes to do work)"
Wizards are nice, but are no substitute for teaching how to think out of the (wizard dialog) .
I've got system administrators at my company that can't figure out networking problems, system uptime problems, mail problems, etc, if there isn't a Windows wizard to fix it.
Too isn't a preposition; it's an adverb.
You assume too much.
It doesn't have to be perfect now for adoption. Most users of office products don't take advantage of all of the features of an office product. Analysis will show that if schools, like Public Adminstration make the migration now they will both get out from under a single vendors gun and find improvements or lacking features are just around the corner.
you, you silly little conservative college student. Your right wing politics and contrarian attitudes towards the "lefties" at your school don't make you clever or alternative. You never give any actual thought to the opinions you spew out; they're wholly recieved from the like of Rush Limbaugh and other halfwits.
It's fools like you that would entirely do away with publically funded eduation and funnel the money into your radical christian schools. Go back to polishing your jackboots and masturbating in the corner, you petty little facist.
I'd think the public school community would be much more open to, and used to working with the community, and user groups, than say leaders of big business.
It fits with their model of parent participation.
Gradebook software. Hmmm.
I wonder what hands down the best use of computers is in the classroom?
My first three guesses would be web browsing, email, and word processing (writing reports). Linux is clearly up to that and has been for some time.
I have heard that what we usually think of, programs that drill you in math or some other subject, aren't any better than pencil and paper drills.
I asked my son's first grade teacher what they use the computers in the classroom for and she said mostly for them to print stories they write, so the students feel like they have created a book. I have to admit, then feels right.
My son *loves* to write sentences in word and print them out, more so than playing reader rabbit or many of the educational programs we have bought for him.
I have to wonder if all of these initiatives to write flashy, multimedia educational software aren't misguided.
I know it is a sad topic... I know lots of people will not agree with me. But the dream (that I have as well, working in the school as a sysop) will not work. For three basic reasons:
1) as someone said in the replies, the problem is that the free soft isn't quite ready yet. Sure, it's much more stable and reliable, user-friendly etc than before.. but not quite as stable. StarOffice5.2 is way too slow, KOffice not quite finished yet, etc...
2) lots of training needed. The training costs for the staff/teachers will quickly overrun the MS liscences scheme. Teachers and especially school secretaries & accountants don't know computers, they will require a significant time to learn. Instead of working
3) lack of software. However bad and strange, educational soft is available for windoze, and not for Linux. Ok, let's say I set up a whole school net with Linux. Next day, teachers of French will bring their CDroms they want to use. Then teachers of math, etc. I don't even mention accountants and school secretaries. I have seen alot of school secretaries expected to use databases, and they all have difficulties with Access... even trying to switch them to MySQL is a joke
sorry. I would be the first one to deploy linux if I could.
If this was really true, the article wouldn't be discussing choices and how they could move over to them. It also wouldn't explain why Microsoft appears to be very afraid any time someone suggest moving away from Windows.
Think about it... Or don't. I really could care less.
My key observation, after reading the article, probably parallels what others have already said, but I'll say it anyway.
If you want a product to "sell" (or, in the case of open-source, achieve widespread usage), make it the best product you possibly can, and offer it at a fair price with good customer service to back it up.
If it's good enough to do the job that people want it to do, it will sell itself. You won't even NEED to advertise, and your support needs will be minimized because of the solid design effort that went into the product to begin with.
The old Bell System (pre-divestiture) telephones are an excellent example of the kind of workmanship quality I'm talking about. How many are still Out There that are over 20 years old? 30? 40? More? And that are still cranking along just fine for what they do?
The simple principles of good workmanship and good service are ones that I think many hardware and software makers could benefit from remembering, including Billy-boy and the Redmondians. They might find themselves much better liked if they stopped trying to be so frelling greedy...
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
So it's just another monopolistic extortion scam from the company with $40 billion cash in the bank. You'd think that the corporations that are the victims of this licensing scam
Great post until this point. MS is aggressive, but they're aggressive in collecting fee's that the school system OWE's them. No one has the right to steal anything, not even schools (especially considering that schools get Windows+Office combo licesenses at a huge discount - something like $20-30 per box). This is like saying that the major publishing corporations are commiting extortion scams by requiring schools to pay for their books.
You mention Office and Star Office. I say the schools look at Mac OS X as OS X is not only a great desktop for schools but it also comes with Appleworks. Appleworks may not be a full blown office suite, but it's simple elegance easily outweighs the bells and whistles found in other programs.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
We got an audit letter, too, like all districts in Wyoming. We're moving 800 PCs to StarOffice 6.0 (free to educators). Every teacher will be given a CDROM with OpenOffice to use at home, as well. Every student can download OpenOffice or pay $1 for the cost of it burned on a CD.
http://www.ccsd1.k12.wy.us
This seems to be the public view - and it is to a large extent true. But one should guard against equating open source==no money. Open source protects you from extortionists (read M$), but not against paying for software. High quality software requires paid programmers.
...unless your aim is to manipulate them into position as fodder for some other world domination scheme.
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
I spend a significant amount of my time coding and evangelizing open-source at my workplace, so I hate to be a nay-sayer to your open-source pat-on-the-back post, but...
How many of those geeks are just giving lip service? Don't be fooled by slashdot postings and a call done in the heat of the moment. A lot of people are just all talk.
Just check out the contradictions when the next cool microsoft powered gizmo comes out.
Posting messages on slashdot, will not stop microosoft. Not buying their products will.
In a few minutes, this story would have vanished from the minds of most slashdotters, and most will go play half-life on their primary partition ( ie. windows. ). They'll surf the web in IE for software for their WinCE powered PocketPC.
Sorry for being negative, but I thought I had to point that out.
Based on upvotes, Ageism is the only "-ism" Slashdotters care about and think isn't SJW
I have talked to some of the individule school technology department heads and what they have generaly said is that they plan on dealing with it "when the time comes".
.
:)
Either that or that they don't give a care and it is the district's problem. . .
Actualy my city's school district started an inventory of all of their software last year, so this shouldn't be too much of an issue for them, though it would be nice if it got even a few departments to go over to Linux, as some have already been leaning in that direction.
Need help treating your acne? Come here!
Apparantly that honor goes to Intel, in the original datasheets for the 8088/8086 processors, which talked about the "efficiency" of segmented memory.... based on the assumption that nobody would ever need to write a program or use more data that 64k (and if they did for some strange reason, there as always the "extra" segment!)
I believe the original poster was referring to the sentence in the parent that ended with "in." Which does happen to be a preposition. Methinks you're in over your head on this one.
I've been trying to dig up the original source for some time. I read it in an AP Wire story carried in a local paper in CT in the summer of 1994 (I think). Aparently the original source was a Harbard Business School research paper, although I have not had the opportunity to search it out. I intend to when time allows. It really is a vary interesting and streight-forward concept that he was pointing out.
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
Of course, this is true in the advancement of any technology. As adoption becomes more widespread, a small, elite group of experts grows to maintain what's "under the hood." That expression alone is enough to illustrate. Automobiles: who knows how to fix these besides mechanics and serious hobbyists? A/C systems, timing, hydraulic systems, electrical systems, emissions controls...
Though your point is taken. People get dependent on the convenience of technology interfaces. That's why they exist. What evolves is a multitiered group of experts, some of whom can service the deepest, most complex problems, others of whom can only make things work if the tools help them.
When I was on an airplane once, the guy next to me said, "You're in computers? I'm majoring in computers at Florida State. Do you think I should go into Excel or Wordperfect?" I kid you not. That was the end of our discussion (mostly because I hate to talk on airplanes, but...)
As to "quality of education," I think high schools should focus on the basics skills that go into programming: logical approaches to problems, automation of simple tasks, procedural programming, object-oriented concepts. I think they should not get too deep into specifics of things like network admin, web development, etc.--that's better left to the vocational schools and JCs/community colleges/OTJ training. Instead, those make good independent-study project areas for the really motivated students. This way, instruction is kept at an achievable level for instructors, kids get the basics that school should teach them, and they can get "advanced" education through college courses during the summer or at night or via correspondence if they really want/need it.
He looked at me and said, "Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send your fingerprints off to Washington."
This whole affair strikes me as the proverbial "good cop, bad cop" play. First, throw a wholy outrageous demand out there. Then apologize. Apologize for the outrageousness, not for the demand itself. Now the original demand seems like a compromise.
DON'T BE FOOLED!
No one from Microsoft has said, "Nevermind." The only ground they are giving up is the time frame. You still have to do your audit. You still have to pay for your software twice. Microsoft still wants all of your money. All of it.
Twice? Yes twice. Once, when you bought it the first time, and once again, when Microsoft demands that you enter into a site license agreement for machines which already have the software, plus machines which will never have the software. Actually you are paying more than twice...
Also, there is no reason to think that this same thing will not happen again in a couple of years...
Here is my sugestion to any institution and/or business who fears that they might be the next to be blackmailed...
Don't bother paying for Microsoft products. Microsoft is going to assume you are a criminal, and if Microsoft is going to demand that you pay for the same licensces again and again, then just don't pay for them the first time.
When you aquire a Microsoft product, install it freely on a wide number of machines. When Microsoft demands an audit, then you comply with a head count (which is all they really want anyway), and pay the ransom for the licences that you have had all along. Since you didn't pay for them the first time, you're even, and will have little to complain about.
In the end, you have software and licences that you've paid for... just not right away...
Unfortunately, Basic (even Visual), is the only best known fortran-like easy language, that allow you quickly create formula-like stuff.
A good idea to promote PHP in schools for that purpose. It uses mostly fortran-like syntax.
BTW, there exists free implementation of substitute for visual basic for linux
They did a great job of disarming the most worried school folks and then hosted an open bar for the rest of the afternoon. I underestimated the ability of MS to react so well and do such a good job. The most effective motivation for change is pain. MS did everything they could that day to make sure we would not feel any pain. ;-^)
Yeah, that will usually take care of the foul moods. Buy the beer and then pormise the world. It is good that the schools took the time to understand that this is not going to just happen once. If they have been keeping up, they would realize that this is something that MS is gearing towards with the subscrition modules.
"You don't want to suffer an audit and get caught...why, just subscribe to our Auto Update plan and pay $30.00 per machine per year, whether you use our software or not"
MS expects the Business world to go this route, so how long do you think it will be before they force the home user to do this also?
You keep going until you die..."Me".
Pointing out that ultimately it affects the kids. All the complaining that Linux is not ready, and "ONLY" M$ can provide software/support - bull! My 7 year old 1st grade nephew has been working with a GUI based computer since he was 5 - both M$ product & Linux, he gets around in both just fine (But REALLY likes Tux Racer!!)... Just goes to show that the Kids are really the thing that matters - NOT the $$ involved. I'm all for replacing anything like the power hungry - status concious - nepoleonic attitude of Gates & co. The Linux community as a whole is about sharing and spreading free software - PLUS sharing IDEAS. Free exchange of ideas and information is what it is really about!!
If you can read this - then why are you?
A tought passed my mind... is M$ auditing machines used by minors?
Isn't against the law to in any way compromise minors privacy?
On the other hand why should schools comply with the auditings? What will happen?
From my reading, if they forbid access they are forfeiting the EULA... Big deal as they are converting everything to linux anyway...
Cheers...
Except that the "ransom" will be $100,000 per illegal copy, which is the penalty for piracy according to the US law, and is enforced by the BSA -- unless you strike some amicable "agreement" with MS to settle for, say, 51% of your company's stock plus 100% commitment to MS for essentially eternity.
The boy on the left is in the Seaman-to-Admiral program (at 23) in the U.S. Navy, and the one on the right (at 20) is MIS at a large (30k user) ISP here. Each are making as much or more $$$ than the old man.
I truly believe that exposure to technology has encouraged and accelerated their advancement; moreover, it has broadened their ability to see *outside the box*.
Moral: Give 'em Tech Toys. Watch them grow. If the teaching staff is threatened, hire more qualified staff.
db
Cig:
ôô
We spoke with tech coordinators from 25 large Oregon and Washington school districts being audited by Microsoft for software licensing compliance.
Evil.
-- Note: If you don't agree with me, don't bother replying. I won't read it.
>Of course legal software costs money, unless its Open Source Open Source software does not HAVE to be free. It is perfectly OK to charge for your open source software. You just need to provide the source code with it and allow anyone who wants to use/modify your code to have the same rights that your have. So we really need to be carefull when talking about Free software and Open Source software. They're still 2 different things.
I cannot help but think of those "Infect Truth" anti-cigarette ads. Perhaps what we need to do is something along those lines?
www.eFax.com are spammers
The religion issue is tougher. I must say, though, that I don't believe in the supernatural, but my children have been to Sunday school. I want them to see both sides of the fence.
;-).
I think your willingness to expose your children to both sides is great (like you needed my approval
I have no children, but it's a possibility in the future. I've given this one a lot of thought, and would expose them to various different religious beliefs. Aren't Sunday schools basically indoctrination camps though? What sort of things led you to that particular choice (Sunday school and that one in particular)?
hot grits
Except on Slashdot, of course. When this story first surfaced, I searched high and low through the Seattle Times archives. There was nothing on this story. So, I sent a letter to the editors. I got no response, no acknowledgement that it had even been received. There is still nothing about this in the Times archive.
The original Oregonian article quoted the Seattle School District's Director of Information Services: "They [Microsoft] just want to squeeze every nickel out of us they can." Somehow it seems odd that I have to read the Oregonian to get a quote from the IS Director in my home school district, commenting on how a *local* business is using hardball tactics on my *local* schools, and I can't get my *local* newspaper to acknowledge it.
Unless something has changed dramatically in the past year or so, Apple hasn't been the major player in the educational market for years. In fact, Dell *alone* sells more machines into schools than Apple (whose market share is somewhere south of 15%, meaning that around 85% of PCs are probably running something Windows-ish). This has been reported in most major newspapers and business mags for years -- do a Google search and I'm sure you'll find plenty of citations.
"Biped! Good cranial development. Evidently considerable human ancestry."
It's now in my .SIG...
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
Get the source. Recompile for MacOS X. Problem solved.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
We use Apples extensively in our elementaries. We replace them on a five year cycle. For the intended applications, the Apples last far longer than the Wintel boxes in the MS and HS. The way we use them, the price evens out. I'll also point out that in general, the quality of the Apples in a bit higher than el-cheapo Wintel boxes. The amount of hardware failure is much lower than some 233Mhz Gateways I used to service. It's that total cost of ownership thing again. For that matter, keeping the software in a sane state is easier as well. That's not to say that they don't crash from time to time but the recovery tends to be far less difficult than when a Windows machine gets it's registry and filesystem borked up.
Don't let the upfront cost of the Macs fool you. For elementary school classroom purposes, they mostly Just Work. Oh yeah, becoming an Apple Self-Servicing District wasn't very costly either and the technical support is EXCELLENT.
A quality Wintel box running 2000 pretty has these virtues as well...at least they're stable. They cost about as much too. We don't deploy eMachines or PowerSpecs here and with few exceptions there are no Macintosh equivalents to those.
It's a lot easier to believe that the universe is controlled by a mischevious woman who enjoys wreaking chaos and confusion in our lives than a prudish old bearded guy. Or maybe he just thinks he runs the show while eris snickers in the background.
just look at the chaos in this thread. The first mention of religion here is like rolling a golden apple labeled "KALLISTI" into a room full of pretentious goddesses.
"'Twas King Billy's shilling, sair, 'as paid for yer ale, and ye're now a sailor o' the good ship 'Portholes EggsPee', ahar, har, har!!!"
"so to say that doing an all enclusive, per processor, license is good cause it saves time is just not true."
Wasn't the per processor ruled illegal in the first concent decree? How's per computer that different?
These teachers all have the ear of the school board. And they seem to speak with a united voice in favor of Microsoft, regardless of price.
That is, until he has to take a massive, massive pay cut once M$ screws them with lawyers and fines.
There are four boxes used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order.
Every post I've read here is missing a crucial point: Microsoft doesn't really care about the short term money/licensing violations: they are more intrested into "conditioning" children to have a Microsoft-centric computer "view".
From day one in K12 to grade 6 to grade 12: If they can get them "conditioned" to use M$ products all the time, then M$ will become ingrained in their little minds. And you know children--they absorb every little detail when they are young.
Yes, you could be saying that why would M$ want to do that, almost all 99.99999999999% computers at home have some form of Windows on it, so children are already conditioned. Well it turns out that not everyone can afford a computer. At school, everyone has some form of access to a computer.
Now I could be all wrong about this, but really am I? Microsoft wants to create an army of "little Bill's"...(/me shudders)
The poster you mention provided a quote from the message and then his quote from Churchill. That's a logical unit, which clearly means to imply, incorrectly, that the word "too" is a preposition. Whatever "youthinks," you're the one ass over ankles on this one.
It will be more permanent if you print it out and file it before M$ changes their print methods again! Seriously, using propriatory and seceret file formats for records is a bad idea. Microsoft makes it difficult to get the information out, but it can be done. The longer you wait to move to real published formats the harder and more expensive it gets. Converting to text or Post Script outputing your reports to CDs might take care of your record keeping concerns better than paper files. Nothing will be able to help you in five or ten years when you try to read your old Access 98 files and learn that your querries don't work anymore. Oh my.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
They force people to buy new hardware every couple of years by discontinuing support for slightly old hardware models for new versions of the OS (even though at a hardware level the OS could easily be made to suppor the previous models).
For this reason alone I don't think I'd be buying lots of Apples for my schools...
They're good at that sort of thing, ya know... All part of project MF... Can't say any more, the Bavarian Illuminati would be hunting me down then...
MS means 'Multiple Sclerosis'
m l
see
http://www.pamf.org/news/2001/0701_neurology.ht
Frankly, my in-laws and the wife of a friend led me to choose Sunday schools, and those ones in particular. When I say Sunday school, I don't mean a week long camp; I'm just talking about the morning classes during regular services.
Unfortunately, basically laziness has led me to send my children to Sunday school and not expose them to other religions (Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, etc.). It is something that I intend to change, but I'm not sure there are enough hours in the day for me to get all the things done that I want, and that may be one that I let slip.
Well consider that what MS did was illegal, and they were convicted for their crime. Compare using said criminal activity as a fact for forming an opinion to what you list, "best" is at best subjective. A conviction is not subjective. Obviously you need help in critical thinking. Perhaps you were busy "blocking" the educators "opinion" on logical argumentation?
I was the person that the "computer science" dept turned to since I was in the computer lab almost 24/7 (well I wish I was) ... during school ... this was about 1989 ...
I was given several books to look at and I chose the book that was given to the class. I also chose the compiler, since I was viewed as an "expert" at the time ...
My choice? ... Borland Turbo Pascal 6.0
Ahh .. reminicing about the past ...
Karma? Karma? I don't need no stinkin' karma.
The mushroom method (keep 'em in the dark and feed 'em shit) is a classic business strategy. By meeting with the schools one on one, none of them know how bad a deal they're getting. That way each school can pay more than the normal purchase price, but go away thinking they got a special discount.
It also makes it easier to apply pressure to weak administrators (redundant) to knuckle under. It's a kind of variation on divide-and-conquer. The schools need to stick to gether on this one, or at the least keep the process in the open so they know if they're being offered a special price or a special price.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
I have a hard time with that, mostly because the original 8086/88 addressed 1 Meg of memory and not just 640K. The 640K limitation came from DoS and M$, hence Gates is credited with the remark.
Admittedly the 8086/88 could only address 64K/segment, and you only got 4 segment registers, limiting you to 256K before you had to start reloading segment registers. Intel's attitude at the time could possibly have been along the lines of "a 64K data element is as big as anybody'll ever need", but at the time 64K was an _entire_ CP/M system, program, data, BIOS, BDOS, everything. Nowhere in the 8086 architecture is there a 640K limitation.
Don't try to blame IBM, either. Their first PC could only handle 256K RAM. The XT upped this to the 640K which was all DoS ever used until EMS & XMS came around.
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.
The M$ rep was sweating bullets
IMU he'll have a large "L" (Linux Luser) branded on his forehead the minute he reports to his masters, and probably be ridden out of Redmond on a rail....
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.
The geeks are already in the schools.
You just need to
attract them to the LUG.
It is interesting that /.
free and open is still not clear to
some of the readers of