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...IIRC, the original Archos' were basically saved by the homebrew community, who came up with new, better, firmware for their products. It was a win-win... so why is the new stuff so anti-modder?

Yeah, I can certainly say that years ago when I bought an Archos Ondio mp3 player I quickly got fed up with the crappy interface. I'd largely stopped using the thing until I downloaded the open source Rockbox firmware. I was really shocked by how incredibly superior the functionality of Rockbox was to the factory installed firmware. I could finally use the player like I should be able to. I probably won't buy another Archos product anyway, due to the problems I experienced with that player, but I certainly wouldn't buy one I couldn't put Rockbox on.

I think if I was doing this, I would have started with rockbox - it already has all the audio playback and recording, runs on cheap, easily portable hardware (MP3 players). I'm assuming you only need 2 channels of audio input - otherwise you might have some extra hardware hacking to do. The only tricky bit would be the noise cancelling I don't know how much processing that takes.

I really like the Sansa e280 running Rockbox. The stock Sansa firmware is gimpy and Rockbox is so easy to install and customizable. The 4GB version is the e260 which you should be able to find easily for under $100. Pros: the best sound quality I've ever heard from a portable (though you need Rockbox to get the best sound); about the same dimensions as the Nano but thicker (it feels very comfortable) and is significantly cheaper. Cons: not an iPod; scrollwheel is not touch-sensitive, but rather a piece of moving plastic (which doesn't bother me, but bothers some people); you have to use Rockbox to get better sound quality than the stock firmware.

Rockbox is free open source firmware for DAPs that allows you to play Doom! Granted the frame rate is a little juddery and the controls aren't laid out perfectly, but who cares? It's Doom! On an ipod! Every geek on slashdot should be drooling at the thought!

I supposed I should also point out at this moment that Rockbox also supports, among many, many other things:

-Voice driven menus for the visually impaired
-A gameboy and gameboy colour emulator
-Over 15 sound codecs, including ogg and flac
-Gapless playback
-Replaygain
-A five band parametric equalizer
-Dual booting with original firmware and others, including ipodlinux.

And runs on the following architectures:

-Apple: 1st through 5.5th generation iPod, iPod Mini and 1st generation iPod Nano
(not the Shuffle, 2nd/3rd gen Nano, Classic or Touch)
-Archos: Jukebox 5000, 6000, Studio, Recorder, FM Recorder, Recorder V2 and Ondio
-Cowon: iAudio X5, X5V, X5L, M5 and M5L
-iriver: H100, H300 and H10 series
-SanDisk: Sansa c200, e200 and e200R series (not the v2 models)
-Toshiba: Gigabeat X and F series (not the S series)

More are in development. Unfortunately there isn't likely to be a port for 6th generation ipods for a very long time, if ever, due to the firmware encryption present on these devices.

More information is available on the rockbox home page, at http://www.rockbox.org/

Sam

Get a Sansa E200 and stick Rockbox on it. You'll get Ogg Vorbis support and a whole lot more.

...and you can replace Cowon firmware with the completely FOSS Rockbox on some of their players.

Try to get one of those players on Ebay:
http://www.rockbox.org/manual.shtml

Except for the Archos models they all support OGG:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WhyRockbox

And Rockbox REALLY rocks!

And you should get one of those on Ebay on a small budget

Try to get one of those players on Ebay:
http://www.rockbox.org/manual.shtml

Except for the Archos models they all support OGG:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WhyRockbox

And Rockbox REALLY rocks!

And you should get one of those on Ebay on a small budget

On most generations of the iPod you can install Rockbox, Free Software firmware that supports Ogg Vorbis, FLAC, and myriad other obscure formats.

It should be noted that we've been able to run the actual music programs from NES, SNES, C64, and other games on iPods for a while now. The NSF (for NES), SPC (for SNES), and SID (for C64) files for these games are only a few tens of kilobytes each. A few GB is all that's needed to store essentially all the music from every game for all these systems!
Of course, Apple's firmware doesn't support these, but alternative firmwares like iPod Linux and Rockbox do.

If you want to avoid the DRM laden crap pushed by Microsoft and Apple, I recommend buying a Sandisk Sansa and installing rockbox on it. I can play ogg, flac, and mp3 music and even doom on mine.

But will it run Linu^H^H^H^H rockbox?

Probably not.

rockbox.org

Which means for those of us with "other" types of players, the iTunes Music Store is completely useless.

Rockbox plays AAC.

"Explain to me how Apple is to backport video to ipods with no video decoder hardware or the ram to run them. Explain how to backport wireless to ipods with no wireless transmitter."

Its not impossible to play video on older iPods. If Rockbox can do it, why can't Apple?

http://www.rockbox.org/

The iPod does support FLAC, but not with the firmware Apple provides. If you want to play FLAC, WV, Ogg Vorbis, and various other audio formats, you must install Rockbox.

I have had great success with an iRiver iHP-140 and the custom RockBox firmware. Works beautifully, and supports a wide variety of formats.

Get something that's well-supported by Rockbox. I converted my 1st gen Nano over a week ago and I'm never going back. No question, even with the reduced battery life (on the Nano--they haven't optimized battery life there yet, but generally end up beating the OEM--sometimes up to twice as much) it's head and shoulders above any MP3 player on the market in terms of ease of use, formats supported, "extras", and even sound quality (the crossfeed option is amazing). There are even simulators so you can "try before you buy".

Projects like this are why I'm an open-source zealot. You will never see anything like Rockbox in the closed world.

I just installed RockBox on my 80g iPod video and it works great: no more having to use a program like iTunes or GTKPod to get music on it. Just plug it in, copy files to it, and listen. It also plays ogg and flac as well as mp3.

Does anyone have any experience with installing Rockbox onto an ipod as to whether or not it would affect sound quality? I wonder if that would help resolve DRM / Itunes issues.

Well. Get a used iPod 5 and / or install Rockbox. Death to proprietary crap!

It's not just a changing of a non-public API, it's encryption, which is much worse and much harder to get around. They're not just refusing to help other software interact with ipods (no public-API), they are actively hindering the effort. Reverse-engineering is what the Rockbox devs have to do with most players and it takes some time but is still do-able. But this encryption is probably similar to the encryption Apple did with the 2nd gen nano. Which is why there's still no Rockbox for that player. And why there will be no other apps to manage these new ipods for some time, if ever.

No, I suppose that doesn't break the rules of any OSI licence, but it sure as hell breaks the spirit. If using open source and occasionally submitting something as open source means embracing it, well hell, microsoft has done that too.

let me take care of that with this firmware update.

You mean Rockbox? Sounds great. I'm not sure why Apple and other companies bother to reinvent the wheel when such good, free firmware is available. Oh yeah, that's right, digital restrictions. How could I ever forget digital restrictions?

Please mod the parent up.

The point isn't "Apple doesn't like Linux" it's that Apple is trying to block access to new iPods in third-party apps. That's highly annoying to those who use a third-party app to manage their iPods. This kind of crap (being forced to use iTunes) is exacty the reason I don't own an iPod.

If you already own an iPod, you do have an option. Rockbox is open-source firmware for many MP3 players, including iPods. It's quite impressive and superior to the standard iPod software in many ways. Most importantly it allows you to use your iPod freely (like a regular storage device).

I have a first generation Black iPod Nano 4GB. It is an absolutely beautiful piece of hardware. It's small and thin enough to fit perfectly into the change/lipstick sub-pocket inside the right pocket on jeans, but big enough that you won't lose it. As an added bonus it has a nice backlit color LCD (mostly used for playing Frozen Bubble .. see below).

Your point about sound quality is valid, but while using my iPod I'm generally on the go and there is a lot of ambient noise anyway.. if I want more sound quality, I fall back to my trusty Archos AV500 (which may not be the best, but it sounds GREAT compared to a Nano).

Your second point about iTunes is doubly valid, but I use the Rockbox firmware which has none of the problems you mention and offers a ton of plug-ins ranging from music visualization to games.

good thing rockbox will continue to present a normal mass storage device that's about 300x easier to perform simple file operations with than iTunes.

Just use Rockbox then. It's an open-source firmware replacement. Though it may not run on the newest generation of iPods yet... http://rockbox.org/

I must respectfully disagree.

I absolutely abhor the iTunes interface. It is 2nd last on my list of good music management programs, one small notch above Music Match Jukebox. Seemingly simple tasks like copying music from your hard drive to your mp3 player have to be done in roundabout ways which for some reason involve playlists. I gave up after half an hour and just installed RockBox on my Nano so I could be free from it's horrors.

I would imagine that iTunes is great for the casual user that doesn't need nor want much MANUAL control over their music library, but for more advanced users the non-standard UI (on Windows) and strange "simplified" ways of doing simple things make it near useless.

There's no reason to dump your iPod. Just convert it to Rockbox. Then you can play Oggs and FLACs.

Why not have your ipod/linux layer cake and eat it too?

http://www.rockbox.org/

You get all the ipod groupthink on a sound OS.

http://www.rockbox.org/

Rockbox is a good open source solution that allows you to manage your iPod on any machine without using iTunes.

...we'd all just use one button and our handhelds would interpret Morse code...

Rockbox lets you use Morse code to enter text on an mp3 player, I tried it out on my iRiver and it's a surprisingly efficient interface. Learning Morse isn't really that hard, no harder than learning to touch type. And wow, a one (or two) button interface is very cool!

I actually own an iPod mini and use iTunes. It isn't too bad. As for being tied into iTune, that statement is false. Rockbox, an Open-Source firmware replacement for the apple iPod. With the update you can copy your music using it as you would any normal USB drive.
http://www.rockbox.org/

The Macintosh doesn't require for you to use their Operating System, and it is their OS so they have every right to run it on their own system. I don't see anything wrong with a Macintosh, it isn't my cup of tea. It is like Coke vs Pepsi vs RC. I may prefer Coke(Windows) while someone else may like Linux(RC) or Mac-OS (Pepsi). It is a matter of taste or functionality.

I don't know much about the iPhone but I highly doubt Cingular/AT&T is the worst, if you have tried Sprint PCS then you may backtrack on that statement. With Sprint I can barely go within a building without dropped calls. Heck I could have full signal strength and have a dropped call because the signal strength drops down to zero.

...if I could only find what I'm looking for.

The vast majority of the time, when there is a specific album I want to buy I have to hunt around and around for it.

This happens for the more obscure stuff, but also for some of the more popular artists. Last week I spent WAY too much time looking for the new Björk album.

It reminds me a bit of when I first started using bittorrent. There were no meta-meta torrent search engines, and no massive trackers. You had to look around at a lot of small (and sometimes unreliable) sites to try to get what you wanted.

Why so difficult? Because I'm not interested in buying any DRM infected music. It's not just an 'ethical' decision - it's a practical one. I've come to be in possession of 3 mp3 players: an iRiver h100, an iPod video and an new iPod nano. Two of those run rockbox, and the nano will the second it is supported. Having to run some software (i.e. iTunes or even the iPod-capable linux apps) to access my music just bugs me.

So, while I would gladly pay for convenience, very few sites want to offer it to me. Honestly, I'd even run iTunes in VMWare and use the iTunes store if I could get the music I want in an uncrippled format. I'd love to support their new DRM-free offerings, but I've never seen a single one! So what am I going to do, burn CDs?

I'm happy to spend money on music, but damn, it's not easy. Most of the time I just give up in the end and just get it from P2P. Does anyone have some good recommendations for non-DRM online music stores?

Note: I'm not going to bother with sketchy Russian sites that are technically legal, but pay no royalties to artists. I'd rather just get it for free in that case.

I'm not disputing your statement that tangible media is better if you are paying for something. I'm with you 100% on that and in fact it's only been within the last 6 months that I've ever purchased anything from ITMS.

As for the restrictions you point out above though, I think you're just set on not using the service. Don't want to use your credit card? Fine. You can buy ITMS cards of varying denominations at practically any brick and mortar. Pay cash for it, if you like. Only drawback here is that if you're in a tax free internet sales state, you're going to pay tax on the card whereas you wouldn't if you bought it directly from ITMS. I can tell perfectly fine what my songs are; I don't know where you get that from. It is true that you can't use your iPod in this way: the filenames are switched around when you store them there, but I understand it's a pretty simple thing to break (and too, there's always Rockbox). But, this isn't about iPod, it's about ITMS, and as I said, on my computer absolutely everything is easily accessible and in a very intuitive file system (/Users/Library/Music/Artist/Album/Song). Lastly, don't like the DRM that limits you? Fair enough. Download the iTunes Plus songs, which don't have that limitation. Sure it costs more, but it solves your complaint.

I know what you're saying, and I'm not trying to be an apologist, I'm just saying you sound a lot like those guys who say claim that Apple sucks because there's only one mouse button. I'm saying buy a 2 button mouse, and plug it in then. In short, you stopped at the problem and didn't bother looking for a solution.

I think the original poster meant voice feedback.

I haven't ever used Rockbox, but here are a few related links:

Rockbox Voice Howto:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/VoiceHo wto

Rockbox Installation Tutorial MP3:
http://www.hartgen.org/RockboxInstallIpod.mp3

Try putting Rockbox onto it.

but what's the value of cracking an Ipod ?

There is none.

I just got my girlfriend a 12GB iriver X20 for her birthday. There's a menu setting which allows you to select the connection behaviour - whether it acts like a USB drive, or be compatible with WMP. Then, just drag & drop the mp3s/oggs. It even has a microSD slot, which I haven't played with yet.

I have a 20GB iriver H10, which requires me to hold a button in while switching it on to put it into "Emergency Mode" so it appears as a USB drive. Prior to installing Rockbox, I then had to run easyH10 to build the database. Now, I just drag and drop - Rockbox builds the DB for me.

Back in the day, I had an iriver iFP-120. iriver provided a firmware on their website which, when installed, caused the player to act like a USB drive.

So, the H10 is the least Linux-friendly, and even that's not so bad! They're functional, durable, cheap & attractive little players.

My wife gifted me with a 4 GB Sansa m200 this Christmas. It has both modes (MTP and whatever the other one is called), video, radio, recording, etc. Up to 8 GB storage. I have no interest in video (bad eyes), radio or anything other than it's music capabilities. And whether or not it worked with Linux.

As expected, it's mounted as a storage drive when plugged into the USB port. I'm not so anal that I have to sync stuff (I have too much music and am rarely home these days), so I just drag and drop whatever I want to hear onto the player. My only gripe with it up to this point was no open formats (ogg, flac).

However, Rockbox has made firmware available for this model and it's incredible. (Warning: this will not work with the m200R Rhapsody models). Not only does the unit sound better, it now supports all open formats and adds a ton of configuration features not available with the stock firmware.

The other great thing is that you can dual boot between Rockbox and Sansa firmware, and update the Rockbox firmware but just plugging in to a computer and copying the open downloaded firmware archive to the device. Deleting and going back to Sansa control is very easy as well.

Great devices, those Sansas.

• Archos: Jukebox 5000, 6000, Studio, Recorder, FM Recorder, Recorder V2 and Ondio
• iriver: H100, H300 and H10 series
• Apple: iPod 4th gen (grayscale and color), 5th/5.5th gen video, 1st gen Nano and Mini 1st/2nd gen (Nano 2nd gen is not supported)
• Cowon: iAudio X5 (including X5V and X5L), M5 (including M5L)
• Toshiba: Gigabeat X and F series (the S model is not supported)
• SanDisk: Sansa E200 series (the R models are not supported)

I tried rockbox for a while on my 2nd gen mini, and I like the idea, but I'll be sticking with the original interface until the battery life doesn't suck so much with rockbox.

Check out some of the themes Rockbox supports:
http://www.rockbox-themes.org/
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WpsGall ery

Rockbox really has some great features. (I wish they'd redesign the website though.)

Only when you copy them over using iTunes, then you can only copy them back off on a computer that is "authorised" for that iPod. That is, if you actually want to listen to them - you can freely copy them back and forth from any computer in "data mode", but you can't actually listen to them if you do that.

Unless, of course, you install Rockbox. http://www.rockbox.org/