Heavily Discounted Zune Outpacing iPod Sales

firegate writes "Yahoo Tech is reporting that the Microsoft Zune, having been heavily discounted for the holiday season, 'is currently Amazon's top-selling music player, beating out the new iPod Nano and the 80GB iPod on the 'Bestsellers in Electronics' list.' An Associated Press report even indicates that the Zune's newfound popularity has left it in short supply, sold out in many locations. Is this a sign that a true competitor, from Microsoft no less, has finally broken into the Apple-dominated MP3 player market? And will this spell more success for Windows-media based music subscription services like Napster?"

Comments

No

[b0lt]

It just shows that Microsoft can afford to lose money to gain market share. They can't keep selling it at a loss and hope to eventually make a profit, since Microsoft's online music store isn't as comprehensive as iTunes.

Re:No

[garcia]

They can't keep selling it at a loss and hope to eventually make a profit, since Microsoft's online music store isn't as comprehensive as iTunes.

I'm apparently confused. I was under the apparent misconception that both units played MP3s and neither required a music store to operate the device. Silly me -- all this time I thought you could use any MP3 on these devices. Don't know where I got that from.

Aside from your comment about the music store, from what I've seen of the Zune (I don't own either an iPod or a Zune) it works just fine for a media player. Yeah, the color schemes are lame and they certainly don't have the marketing team that Apple does for their units, but money talks.

As long as it plays music and fit in your pocket, cheap people (who happen to outnumber those interested in being hip) will flock to it. In addition, for you to claim that MSFT will somehow not be able to continue this mode of operation for a very long time, you're nuts.

Re:No

[evel aka matt]

His point wasn't that it sucked, his point was that MS can't sell it at a loss if he thinks that music store sales will make up the missing profit. He proposes that the Zune music store is lacking.

Re:No

[OECD]

Aside from your comment about the music store, from what I've seen of the Zune (I don't own either an iPod or a Zune) it works just fine for a media player. Yeah, the color schemes are lame and they certainly don't have the marketing team that Apple does for their units, but money talks.

I have this sneaking suspicion that there will be a lot of forced smiles and strained "Thanks, Mom"s come Christmas morning.

Followed by a spike in iPod sales the following week.

Re:No

[larry bagina]

Apple ekes out a small profit on the iTMS, but the RIAA gobbles up most of the sale price. Most other (playsforsure based) online music stores have discovered that there's no profit to be made.

Re:No

[Basehart]

Keep that receipt Grandma :-)

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

You beat me to it. This is likely just a number of parents going "MP3 Music player... Hrm, this one is cheaper and they must all be the same" and the buy it. Lets see the number of returns and then we'll talk about breaking Apple's Market dominance.

Re:No

[hedwards]

Except they can't legally do that, unless they plan on always selling zunes at a loss, they would be in violation of antitrust legislation if they used an artificially low price to cut into the competition before raising the price again. They could do it and leave the price low, but if Apple isn't doing so well with the ITMS in comparison to the ipod sales, I can't imagine that MS would do well enough to turn a profit like that.

That being said, with the amount of mark up on ipods, I would be surprised if the zune isn't still selling for a profit.

Personally I'm somewhat skeptical as to how long this is going to last, but even if it doesn't last for too long, it gives the zune more exposure and the ipod owners a sense that maybe ipods really are as over priced as people say.

The main point of this is to get zunes sold so that they can get a proper word of mouth campaign going. Contrary to popular belief the zunes aren't bad, while unpopular, the only person I know that owns one was quite happy with it last time I saw her. After talking to her I probably would have bought one, had I been in the market for a new mp3 player.

Re:No

[ILuvRamen]

But I hate iTunes. And so does like all of Europe and actually most of the US lol. It's too locked down and "BUY SOMETHING OR ELSE!" you know what I mean. It's like the aol homepage in music download program form.
Now I dunno anything about the Zune really so I dunno if it does this or not but the only MP3 player that's going to super dominate every other one is one where:
you plug it in and it shows up in My Computer as a drive and you drop MP3s on it or any other file.
It doesn't have any major problems or defects
it's high capacity
It's cheap
And if it could play games, watch out! If Creative or Sandisk made a player that fit all those characteristics, they'd blow the locked down iPod and Zune and iTunes and Napster and all them away.

Re:No

[mcrbids]

As long as it plays music and fit in your pocket, cheap people (who happen to outnumber those interested in being hip) will flock to it.

Orly?

How do you account for this product's relative failure?

I bought one a year or two ago. I love it. It's the size of my thumb, runs on a single AAA battery for days, plays mp3s and radio, has a mic so I can record whatever, stores 1 GB of songs (enough for a good jog, which is what I primarily use it for) and I can use it like a flash thumb drive with a simple 8" cable.

It cost me $75 when a 1 GB Nano was costing $250. Oh, and my wife has a Nano. It sucks. The UI for itunes is counter-intuitive and crash-prone on Windows. Once you get the songs onto it, it does a good job of shuffling and managing, but it doesn't play the radio, and you can't record anything at all with it.

For 4x the money. WTF?

Re:No

[MyDixieWrecked]

...Microsoft's online music store isn't as comprehensive as iTunes.

Not only that, but putting the music on the zune isn't as easy a task as setting up iTunes. I have a first-gen zune (brown, no less) and it took me over an hour to get the software installed and get ready to use the zune. Also, I got the zune second-hand and once I set up my software, I wasn't able to play any of the music that was left on it. It kept saying that I didn't have permission. When I asked the guy who I got it from about that, he said that they were mp3'd using the zune's software, so he didn't know why that was the case... they shouldn't have been DRM'd.

I don't know if the new zunes fixed that or if the new zunes have a better interface on the device itself (I do know they haven't really gotten the desktop application any simpler. it's still a pain to use). The old zune is a pain in the arse to navigate and the only thing I really feel it has going for it is the larger screen, although I haven't put any video on it, yet.

so, has anyone used one of the new zunes, yet? has MS improved the interface? The physical box definitely is much nicer looking than the original model and, from a purely superficial standpoint looks like it can compete with the ipods... at least with the general consumer population.

Re:No

[Yath]

they would be in violation of antitrust legislation if they used an artificially low price to cut into the competition

At which point the Justice Department would swoop in and beg Microsoft for a spanking, I'm sure.

Re:No

[mp3phish]

What makes you think they are selling at a loss? Are you aware that iPod nano's are speculated to cost less than 50$ each to manufacture? Sandisk currently sells 2GB players for about 50$ each and makes plenty of profit on them. 4GB and 8GB players are only marginally more expensive to manufacture.

If you think there is less than a 50% gross margin on the "premium" players you are sadly mistaken. Their R&D dollars have already been spent. MS is simply cutting their gross margin on the player to maintain competitiveness.

Re:No

[mini me]

you plug it in and it shows up in My Computer as a drive and you drop MP3s on it or any other file.

I've come to love using smart playlists to automatically manage the music on my iPod. I can't imagine having to dig around the filesystem manually (or write a script to do it) just to get the songs I want onto my player. Granted, I haven't used a Zune, so perhaps there is iTunes-like software that can be used.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of people I know really don't think much of the iPod. Who cares about the UI, all most people do is click "Play" once and then put it in their pocket. Also the way your iPod nicely deletes your entire music library when you sync it with another person's PC doesn't go down well. It makes it impossible to get a few songs from your mates which is a major benefit of having a large music library, unless of course you have spent $12,000 or so to buy the 800 CDs you need to fill that space which is unlikely for most people I imagine.

Re:No

[palegray.net]

Followed by a spike in iPod sales the following week.

Could we also safely say "followed by a spike in Zune returns the following week" ???

Re:No

[aichpvee]

Does this mean that there may soon be enough zunes out there to get someone working to port rockbox? Because that might make the zune not suck.

Re:No

[DECS]

The 2006 Zune was intended to be sold for $300, but Apple's price cuts last year forced Microsoft to sell it at $250. Even at that price, it couldn't sell.

By June 2007, Microsoft had stuffed the channel with 1.2 million units. Retailers have been trying to sell them ever since, as low as $80. The fact that last years models, which Microsoft has already claimed having sold, are being sold at fire sale prices of a half to a quarter of the original price indicate that Microsoft hasn't made any profit on the Zune hardware.

Last year, the speculation was that Microsoft would give away hardware with a rental subscription. So the OP is pointing out that no, the hardware itself is a huge failure, and rentals (or sales) can't even bring those losses into the black. Microsoft can't make any money on downloads. Even Apple didn't make money on downloads until it was selling millions of downloads per week.

The idea that Microsoft backers would parade out the line that "the Zune 30 is outselling the iPod at certain retailers!!!" was predicted last week in:

Why Microsoft's Zune is Still Failing
Last winter, I detailed why Microsoft's iPod Killer would fail miserably. This year, Microsoft will fail again, but for a new set of reasons. It is not obvious that the company has figured this out itself. Here's why the Zune will fail in 2007, and how Microsoft is painting a fraudulent portrait of interest that doesn't exist.

Re:No

[karnal]

Perhaps you mean a more direct link like this?

http://www.creative.com/products/mp3/zenstone/

Your direct link will take us to any of the creative mp3 players. I'm guessing you got a stone. Anyways, props to Creative - I've owned 2 of their players, and they've all been fairly solid; only problems I've had is this:

1. Zen Xtra 30gb:
        a. Sometimes gets scratchy in the left ear on turn on - have to cycle power to get the DAC to reset (and it's not the well-known loose jack issue...)
        b. Selecting songs (after having the device for 2 years or so) sometimes will pause the unit.
        c. If my cell phone is near it, it will turn itself on when the cell phone rings (found that one out today!!!)
2. Zen Nano Plus 1gb:
        a. Gets crazy around my lawn mower - will sometimes shut off (interference?) Absolutely 0 problems otherwise. Takes 1xAAA.

They're solid players, and very decent DACs. However, my newest player is a Cowon D2 - takes SD/SDHC cards (just got an 8gb SDHC for 40$ AR) and will play properly formatted (320x200) video! Even though it's a tad more bulky than the micro, it is still comfortable for a trip to the gym. Oh, did I mention it gets around 50 hours of playback (music) and will play FLAC files if you're so inclined? Also plays flash games... the list goes on and on.

Re:No

[Graymalkin]

Your friends must be illiterate as iTunes asks if you want to resync your library with the one of the new computer. You can tell it not to and it will be in manual song management mode. From there you can drop all of the songs you want onto the iPod. It's not rocket surgery.

Re:No

[mveloso]

"They can't keep selling it at a loss and hope to eventually make a profit"

Who says they want to make a profit?

These days, they can't dump software (like the way they dumped IE). Instead, they can just sell it at a loss until their Office/Windows monopoly runs out...which'll be never.

Microsoft Home & Entertainment has lost billions of dollars during its history. They're not about to stop that anytime soon.

Re:No

[Torvaun]

Actually, they can be as anti-competitive as they want until they start beating the iPod. Antitrust legislation keeps monopolies from artificially keeping competitors out.

Re:No

[pokerdad]

Except they can't legally do that, unless they plan on always selling zunes at a loss, they would be in violation of antitrust legislation if they used an artificially low price to cut into the competition before raising the price again.

IANAL, but I am pretty sure that US antitrust law forbids monopolies from selling at a loss to gain market share/hurt competitors; MS is certainly not a monopoly in the music player business.

Re:No

[gnasher719]

What makes you think they are selling at a loss? Are you aware that iPod nano's are speculated to cost less than 50$ each to manufacture? You are confusing the speculations about "bill of parts" with "cost to manufacture". Not the same thing. And once you've manufactured it, it costs a bit of money to get it from a factory in China into the hands of a customer.

Re:No

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

They can't keep selling it at a loss and hope to eventually make a profit, since Microsoft's online music store isn't as comprehensive as iTunes.

Considering Apple runs the ITunes store at near break even prices, Apple can't afford to sell players at a loss either. Truthfully, though, both companies make money peripherally, MS by licensing WMP and by locking customers into Windows upgrade cycles, and Apple with increased brand awareness and sales of Macs.

Re:No

[Guido von Guido]

"It's not rocket surgery."

I'm going to have to steal that line.

Re:No

[DECS]

Wrong. Anti-trust involves using your market dominance to destroy competition in other markets, not just having done so in the past. If the US wanted open markets, it could have stopped Microsoft before it destroyed markets, rather than just spending millions to establish the facts and then doing nothing long afterward.

However, Microsoft has already failed to use its market dominance to get PlaysForSure off the ground, and sure doesn't seem to be doing a bang up job with the Zune. If th company started dumping the Zune in other markets, you could be sure Sony and others would attack the company using local laws. That's unlikely, as Microsoft has no significant hardware sales outside the US.

Apple doesn't have much to fear in the US from the Zune, as Microsoft can't manage to even sell the Xbox at a profit in volumes around 5 million per year. Apple sells ten times that many iPods, and the number is only going up. Sure some of those iPods are $200, but around a third are $400, and the iPod will add another 10 million per year. Compare Microsoft's greatest hardware "success" to Apple's similarly priced iPod business, and it is clear Microsoft has no hardware position to leverage. The Windows monopoly isn't selling the Zune or the Xbox.

In media sales, Apple is at the top of music, TV, and movie sales--despite the fact that it hasn't even started offering rental movies or HD content. It's still #1 in each segment, with 60-90% of those markets. Microsoft doesn't place among the top four outfits that sell 97% of content downloads, even when combining its incompatible Zune and Xbox media sales.

Microsoft doesn't have any position to leverage. It can't make hardware that works, can't sell it at a profit, can't sell downloads, and still seems to think rental music will somehow take off after ten years of failure in the market. On top of that, it has lost its leadership position in desktop operating systems, lost its effort to monopolize server operating systems, and can't make money in any new markets, including search.

So on one hand, you're wrong about anti-competitive markets, but on the other hand, it doesn't matter because Microsoft is on the way to oblivion. Its 90s crown isn't going to be any good in a world where OEM PC licensing is increasingly not the primary way to make money and wield influence. That weird period of tech history is on the wane, and a new era of open competition will leave Microsoft's fiefdom as obsolete as Windows.

Ten Myths of Leopard: 10 Leopard is a Vista Knockoff!

Re:No

[dhavleak]

IANAL and IDKS (I don't know shit) about this, but I thought the antitrust case only covered stuff that leveraged the windows market share? i.e. if it can be argued that there is no synergy between Zunes and Windows, then would selling Zunes at a profit/loss matter in the context of the antitrust case?

Re:No

[rindeee]

Nuts! You beat me to it. I was gonna make a "Mom was asked for an iPod but when she want to buy it she saw a shiny Zune, and it's made by MS, and it's cheaper so he/she will like it even better..." post. Luckily I did a quick 'Find' in Firefox and found your post saving me from duping. Shew! Anyway, you're right on the money. I'd love to see the numbers on Zune returns post Christmas. ;)

Re:No

[Johann Public]

http://us.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=213&subcategory=214&product=12720 I have one of those (the product I assume you were referring to) and am quite happy with it, being able to listen to radio, music, and listen to and record lectures in my classes.

Re:No

[markov_chain]

Apple gear sure is popular with the Bubble generation, but you have to wonder if or how the upcoming one will rebel. They could go to MS stuff, they could ditch the standalone player and move to smart phones, they could move to portable personal servers... time will tell.

Re:No

[CohibaVancouver]

The UI for itunes is counter-intuitive and crash-prone on Windows

I couldn't agree more... Although it doesn't crash for me, the iTunes UI is completely non-sensical. And don't get me started on how much crap this piece of bloatware installs on my hard drive each time it does one of it (what seems weekly) 'upgrades.' How about deleting some of that rubbish, apple?

Re:No

[secolactico]

Are you guys implying that Zune is so crappy that people won't want it even for free?

I've never used a Zune and only used iPods on a couple of occasions (don't own either). But if somebody gave me a Zune for christmas, I woudn't turn it down. I mean, it costs me nothing. At worst, it won't be the crappiest gift I've received. Hell, if it plays my MP3s, I will enjoy it.

Or will it somehow report all of my non-DRM music tracks to the RIAA?

Re:No

[ashridah]

Except that the zune goes one step better, and won't delete music off the device unless you specifically request it, ever, even if you DO change sync systems. I've changed it a few times already on my one without any problems.

The zune might be a generation behind, but it's definitely got a few minor advantages. I can't say I'm too interested in the market place stuff tho, and the social aspect isn't really why I'm using a player. (when I put the headphones on, it means "rack off, i'm being *anti*social, damnit"

ash

Re:No

[badasscat]

It just shows that Microsoft can afford to lose money to gain market share.

Apparently not.

This model was the one at the top of the charts. "Was" being the key word, because it was selling for $90 at the time the article was written, which was November 19. That lasted approximately one week.

It's now back up to $186. The black model is $229. I suspect the brown model is still discounted a bit because it doesn't sell at full price. (And by "doesn't sell" I mean "people don't buy it".)

btw the top-selling Zune right now at Amazon *is* the black model, at #24 on Amazon's chart. The top-selling iPod is at #3.

This was a highly optimistic and now outdated article.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple doesn't have much to fear in the US from the Zune The only true statement in your entire post.

... incompatible Zune and Xbox media ... FUD

Microsoft doesn't have any position to leverage. It can't make hardware that works, can't sell it at a profit, can't sell downloads, and still seems to think rental music will somehow take off after ten years of failure in the market. On top of that, it has lost its leadership position in desktop operating systems, lost its effort to monopolize server operating systems, and can't make money in any new markets, including search. Wow. You need some anger management counseling. I thought we were talking about Zunes in this thread, and you tuned it into an MS obit. Dude, from your site (roughlydrafted) and from your posts it's clear that you're a blind Apple/Steve Jobs devotee. That's great -- to each his own. But what's with the obsessive compulsive MS-bashing, and shameless twisting of facts to do so? Why don't you just suck Steve Job's dick and get it over with?

Re:No

[Wookietim]

I suppose that it should be pointed out that Apple makes much more money off selling an iPod than they do by selling music online... So this is not the same model as game consoles (Sell the console at a discounted price and make up for it with the games). Really from the looks of it, Microsoft is trying to gain market share here. Not really sure why - I don't see how an MP3 Player can really make that big of a difference to MS. Perhaps they just really want one win after the string of setbacks they have had recently (Vista being a bummer, the XBox being far outsold by Nintendo, and the iPhone and soon google making inroads into their mobile market)... But I suppose if you have the deep pockets of MS, you can afford to lose money for a market win.

Re:No

[timster]

The 1GB Nano was never $250. The product debuted with 4GB and 2GB models for $250 and $200. The 1GB was released a few months later, and the only price it ever sold at was $150. At about the same time the 1GB Shuffle was sold for $100.

Since the Stone doesn't seem to have much of a screen, it seems to me that the Shuffle is a better comparison, but either way we're quite a long ways from your "4x the money" line. How did you make such a large mistake?

Re:No

[tjark]

Evidently in Europe and the US you have a different version of iTunes to the rest of us. I'm in England, and I don't recognised 'locked down' (any more than any other closed source software) or 'buy something or else' in iTunes.

Re:No

[flyingsquid]

Actually, Microsoft may not be losing all that much money... I did a bit of digging into the sales rankings at Amazon, and what I found is interesting. The Zune is indeed listed as #1 in the category "Portable Digital Media Players". Microsoft has done it: they beat Apple at their own game, they've got a certified hit on their hands... right? OK. Go to "electronics" and sort by sales ranking. The top sellers are now:

1. Kindle. (ok, Amazon, I admit it. I'm impressed.)

2. Canon Powershot A57OIS

3. Apple 4 GB iPod nano silver

4. Garmin nüvi GPS navigator

5. Canon PowerShot A560

6. Apple 8 GB iPod nano black

and so on... iPod classic pops up again at #11, iPod Touch at #18 and 21... Zune comes in at #24. WTF? Likewise, if you head over to bestsellers in the "MP3 player" category, you'll see Apple in the #1,2,3, and the 5,6,7,8,10 spots. #4? SanDisk. #9? #9 is the much-vaunted, reduced-price Zune... What's up? I think that Microsoft is playing one of the oldest tricks in the book, using the "in it's class" qualifier. For instance, you are told that the 2008 Chevrolet Pendejo is the cheapest, best-performing, and bestselling SUV "in it's class." What the ad does not tell you is that the class they're talking about is narrowly defined as the class of SUVs which get 5 miles per gallon, which can't exceed 45mph when going uphill, and which tend to spontaneously combust when making left turns. Tack on enough qualifiers, and ANY piece of crap is the best in it's class. Microsoft has it's Zune classed as a "portable digital media player". Apparently, iPods aren't Portable Digital Media Players, they're MP3 players, and there's some sort of really important difference, so the Zune wins the top slot... in it's class. Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but from what I can tell, this is some sort of scam cooked up by the guys in Microsoft's marketing division. Wow... I mean, I feel I should be pissed at Microsoft, but it's just kind of, well... pathetic.

References:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/electronics/16009311/ref=pd_ts_pg_1?ie=UTF8&pg=1 http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/electronics/ref=pd_ts_e_bcrm_electronics http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/electronics/172630/ref=pd_ts_e_bcrm_172630

Re:No

[jordyhoyt]

Try refining your results a bit, perhaps looking at "MP3 Players" (which iPods do indeed dominate), but then selecting the subsection "Hard-Drive Based". Here, Zune takes spots 1,2, and 4 (Brown, Black and White, respectively), iPod gets space 3, and the Zen is 5th.

Obviously this is some sort of evil plot by Microsoft.

Also you might try looking lower in the "Portable Digital Media Player" bestseller list: iPods are there, just very low on the list.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft Home & Entertainment has lost billions of dollars during its history. They're not about to stop that anytime soon. lol.. they made a profit last quarter.

There isn't that much synergy between MS's entertainment division and it's OS and Office units. I doubt they would be willing to keep operating at a loss beyond say, 2010 (random, unscientific guess).

Re:No

[KDR_11k]

I don't think the Zune would be more in favour with grannies than any of the other dozens of MP3 players.

Re:No

[DECS]

Apple doesn't make a huge portion of its profits from music sales, but 10% of its 2007 revenues came from "Other music related products and services."

$2,496,000,000 in music and licensing revenue

Look at Apple's other income:

$8,305,000,000 in iPod hardware revenue
$10,314,000,000 in Mac hardware revenue
$1,260,000,000 in other peripheral hardware
$1,508,000,000 in software and other services.

It's almost all hardware. Every bit of download income Apple brings in is gravy. It's profitable advertising. Microsoft has to make money on downloads to bail out its hardware losses because it isn't a hardware company with any expertise in developing products. Microsoft licenses software. Its hardware business collectively lost billions last year.

It's a bit silly to compare Apple's hardware profits with Microsoft's, because they aren't similar. It's only the Windows Enthusiast bloggers on ZDnet who bow down to Microsoft and assume a similarity between ((the company's profitable history as a middleware robber baron)) and ((its more recent attempts to expand beyond auto-licensed software sales tacked on to all the hardware sold)).

Apple simply dug a canal around Microsoft, and is making money hand over fist without paying the Microsoft licensing taxes. Microsoft can't copy Apple because it's not in the shipping business, it's in the river tax collection business. Other shipping companies are now questioning whether paying the river tax is really necessary.

Rise of the iTunes Killers Myth

Re:No

[nametaken]

...worked for the XBox.

Re:No

[Moralpanic]

Where are you getting the information that they're selling the Zune at a loss? It certainly wasn't in the article.

Re:No

[mabhatter654]

Since when has "legally" stopped Microsoft before? Be serious. They make Billions in profit from Window/Office they can burn without even a blip. (5 Billion on Xbox 1!) In SPITE of the Plays-for-sure fiasco that nobody actually bought those players (or at least the online music) anyway M$ will make another attempt. There's a big portion of andi-Apple MS fanbois that won't buy an iPod simply because it's "Apple" and stupid. They don't want to understand fair use and such all they see is Apple's higher price and tie-in... they pirate everything anyway so "buying" media isn't a big deal. In that segment iPod/iTunes will never make sense.

I think M$ is trying to "buy" their way in with "discount" pricing at vendors in the M$ family (BB, Amazon, etc), but also addressing some pent-up market that exists because of Apple's huge share. Zune is the "underdog" product, customers don't really attach A + B = monopoly like slashdotters do. Also, Zune is part of the Xbox division, not the CE division so there's the idea that M$ may move things to the Xbox Live side to sync with zune rather than windows side like CE.

Re:No

[larry bagina]

revenue is not profit. 70-80% of iTMS revenue goes to the RIAA. Throw in cc fees, bandwidth, licensing the 1-click patent, employees, and other expenses and the profit drops to the point that they wouldn't be doing it if not for the iPod.

Re:No

[Mode_Locrian]

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. Nice work uncovering that info.

Re:No

[Decado]

Many people make the reasonable assumption that resyncing is basically a merge of both sets of files which is what many other players do, they copy files the PC is missing from the player and files the player is missing from the PC. Lots of people get burned by it at least once, and if your player deletes your entire library once you don't recommend it to others. If apple mean "Do you want to delete all files from your iPod and copy the ones from this PC instead?" that is what they should ask, "Do you want to resync?" is misleading and not nearly clear enough for the severity of its actions. I would say you are the one with the literacy problem since you can't see that "resync" is a word with some ambiguity in its meaning and several valid interpretations.

Re:No

[antibryce]

They might not have been "mp3'd" at all, they could have been encoded as WMA files. Even if they were mp3s the Zune wraps everything (even mp3s) in a proprietary DRM wrapper, which is how they can stop you from playing a song you got from a friend after 3 days.

Re:No

[ILuvRamen]

even my USB flash drives can be synced with WMP so there's always that. Plus and synchronization software can be used with any MP3 player that shows up as a drive

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen your Zune hatred spewed on Slashdot for well over a year now. I just have to ask...

Why do you care so much about ripping Zune when it's actually a good thing for the consumer for Microsoft to be in this market? Apple currently dominates that market, which is no better than Microsoft dominating a market.

Actually, I guess the question I really want answered is, why don't you think it's a GOOD thing that Microsoft is out there trying to keep Apple, and others like Sony and Google, honest? Microsoft has the money, resources and just enough "hipness" to attempt to compete with entrenched companies like those. No one else does.

Re:No

[SavvyPlayer]

Sex is above fashion -- it never goes out of style.

Re:No

[aplusjimages]

I haven't heard anything bad about the Zune except for it's a total iPod rip off (and the usual hate rehtoric from Apple fanboys who've never owned one) , but it's still a solid MP3 player. In fact it had more features than the iPod. I think kids are going to find that name brand is just a superficial thing and that the Zune does what the iPod does. If you want to avoid a crappy MP3 player then I would suggest avoiding the Zen. It's a great little MP3 player if the software would stop locking users out from being able to put content on it.

Re:No

[Tim Browse]

How do you account for this product's relative failure?

If the UI is anything like that website, I may have stumbled on the answer.

Re:No

[Dilaudid]

I don't get that - how can the 80gb ipod be higher on the mp3 player list (#3) but the zune be higher on the hard drive based mp3 player list (#1)? It would be nice if the 80gb ipod is flash only.

Anyone else find it amusing that the consensus on Slashdot seems to be that a Microsoft monopoly of OSes is evil but an Apple monopoly of mp3 players needs to be defended? I do think MS are pretty awful, as Jobs says, they have no taste (just look at Halo 3...), and Jobs and apple come pretty close to walking on water, but competition is never a bad thing.

Re:No

[Keebler71]

Interesting... I had a near-identical experience with iTunes (on XP). It took me *three* installs to get it working. Install #1 resulted in a message telling me that the version was out of date and forced me to dl a new version. Install #2 finished but crashed my computer. Install #3 seemed to work fine, except the user interface looked nothing like what I was used to (Media Player) and took some getting used to (I imagine newcomers to Media Player feel the same way). My music selection was considerably larger than the 2GB Nano that I had bought so iTunes decided to randomly choose music from my collection to fill the device. I ended up taking the unit back and exchanged it for iriver - mostly because it seemed more durable and easier to use while running but somewhat because of the experience with iTunes.

Re:No

[Tim Browse]

Hmm, odd...I bought my sister an iPod Shuffle, and put some music on it via my PC to christen it. When she got home and intalled iTunes, iTunes would either offer to delete all the music and then sync with her iPod, or do nothing. If she didn't agree to delete all the music, the device didn't show up in iTunes, so she couldn't put any music on it.

Maybe that behaviour is specific to the Shuffle or something.

Re:No

[TheRaven64]

One of the big issues antitrust legislation is meant to deal with is using a monopoly in one area to gain an advantage in another. If they are using money from a monopoly in the Windows market to fund an advantage in the portable music player market they might run afoul of it. They are more likely to come under the scrutiny of anti-dumping legislation, however, which explicitly prohibits any company from selling a product at a loss in order to drive their competitors out of business.

Re:No

[Karlt1]

"Also you might try looking lower in the "Portable Digital Media Player" bestseller list: iPods are there, just very low on the list."

This was debunked months ago...There are no current generation iPods on the list. For some reason Amazon is not counting current generation iPods as a portable media player.

Re:No

[Karlt1]

"It cost me $75 when a 1 GB Nano was costing $250."

A 1GB Nano never cost more than $149. It was actually released quietly -- at least for Apple -- to get a player under $149.

Re:No

[aembleton]

What an excellent article. I've subscribed to your RSS feed.

Re:No

[hedwards]

Since when has "legally" stopped Microsoft before? Be serious. They make Billions in profit from Window/Office they can burn without even a blip. (5 Billion on Xbox 1!) In SPITE of the Plays-for-sure fiasco that nobody actually bought those players (or at least the online music) anyway M$ will make another attempt. There's a big portion of andi-Apple MS fanbois that won't buy an iPod simply because it's "Apple" and stupid. They don't want to understand fair use and such all they see is Apple's higher price and tie-in... they pirate everything anyway so "buying" media isn't a big deal. In that segment iPod/iTunes will never make sense.

I think M$ is trying to "buy" their way in with "discount" pricing at vendors in the M$ family (BB, Amazon, etc), but also addressing some pent-up market that exists because of Apple's huge share. Zune is the "underdog" product, customers don't really attach A + B = monopoly like slashdotters do. Also, Zune is part of the Xbox division, not the CE division so there's the idea that M$ may move things to the Xbox Live side to sync with zune rather than windows side like CE. I for one think that higher prices for things is a reasonable thing to consider when purchasing things. And I venture to suggest that I'm not alone. It is also valid to consider the tie in when one is planning on buying digital music, the ITMS songs are only available on Apple sanctioned players, and Apple doesn't sanction other players. Whereas MS will allow any company that pays the fee and signs the agreement to license the technology. While neither is great, and neither is much lock in for most people, I do have to wonder why you would consider Apple superior in this area. At least with MS I could choose any manufacturer other than Apple.

So what if MS is trying to buy into a lucrative market, it isn't like Apple would never try and do the same thing. I mean, obviously there were no mp3 players prior to the ipod nor cellphones prior to the iphone. Some of us still have players from before the ipod, and they do function fine.

I realize that saying M$ makes you feel cool, but most of us stopped doing that years ago when we realized how imature it made us sound, I suggest you do the same. I don't personally like MS but you have to admit that if the competition brings lower prices and better products that that is a good thing for consumers.

Re:No

[DECS]

Well that's why I pointed out that:

"Apple doesn't make a huge portion of its profits from music sales... Every bit of download income Apple brings in is gravy."

Even after paying the RIAA 80%, making $400,000,000 in clear revenues on a website selling software isn't exactly "struggling to break even." It's fueling growth into new markets. No other large online music stores are making that much money, and plenty are trying. It's not like Apple is running a 2000-era dot com operation selling 10 lb bags of dog food at cost with the hope of someday becoming a brand. Two billion in revenue is a pretty good business.

Rise of the iTunes Killers Myth

Re:No

[blind biker]

I do think there's an evil plot going on here: whre the fuck are the 80 GB players on that list?

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

"Except they can't legally do that, unless they plan on always selling zunes at a loss, they would be in violation of antitrust legislation"

That has never stopped Microsoft before.

Re:No

[NoMaster]

Not trolling, but I can tell almost exactly the same story about installing WMP7 - install #1 seemed to go OK but resulted in a broken install that locked up Windows when trying to run it; install #2 was a nightmare fight against "you already have the latest version" even after uninstalling it through Control Panel; and install #3 seemed to work fine except left me with a user interface totally unlike Media Player (WMP6, that is), with none of the standard Windows GUI elements visible. Clicking around blindly trying to find a way of changing the UI just seemed to cycle through various themes of coloured vomit flying around on screen.

Stupid thing is, I wasn't even trying to update WMP in the first place - I was updating IE...

Re:No

[gerardrj]

Yes, the inability to enter manual music management mode on the Shuffle is normal behavior.
All the other iPods (to my knowledge) will ask you if you want to erase the iPod, ignore it or enter manual mode.

Re:No

[iminplaya]

...you are told that the 2008 Chevrolet Pendejo is the cheapest, best-performing, and bestselling SUV "in it's class.

I still wouldn't trade in my 1957 Plywood Fury. It's got a two barrel carbon-maker and brand new gladiator and a windshield that's 63% more transparent and the new "Wonda-Weave" fabric seat covers.

Re:No

[pankaj_kumar]

The folks who follow Amazon Sales Rank over time know that the Sales Rank tends to fluctuate and one needs to look at them over a period of time to draw any meaningful conclusion. The chart at http://charteo.us/amzn/compare/B000JLKIHA,B000H0QDCC/ looks at the Sales Rank chart for Apple 80 GB iPod Classic (Black) and Microsoft Zune 30GB Digital Media Player (Black) over last 3 months. Yes, the chart is live and compares Sales Rank for last three months from whenever you at it. The chart does show a spike in sales of Microsoft Zune during Oct.-Nov.'07 time frame, but then it levels off. In contrast, Apple iPod sales have been steady and better than its competitor for most of the time. The bump in Sales Rank of Zune could have been due to heavy discounts or special promotion campaign or both.

There is another factor to consider -- both Apple iPod and Microsoft Zune are available in different models and different colors, and each one gets its own Sales Rank. So comparing Sales Rank by picking a single model, even over a period of time, is misleading. As Sales Ranks are not additive, you can't simply add Sales Ranks of various models (or combine them in some interesting way, though this may be possible with some advanced math) to arrive at a single statistic.

I do a bit more analysis od Sales Rank charts of different iPod and Zune models in my blog post at http://charteo.us/The-Myth-of-Microsoft-Zune-Beating-Apple-iPod-as-Holiday-Gift-Item/.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.creative.com/products/mp3/

This returns a Microsoft VBScript error! ROTFL. I captured it as a jpg. Priceless. /.ed perhaps.

Re:No

[dzurn]

I'm afraid you are too late

Re:No

[steve.howard]

Very simple. You have a strange view of what "Monopoly" means.

Microsoft has a monopoly in Operating Systems. Linux can get you very far, but sometimes you really do need commercial software for something and Microsoft's massive market share means you have to dual-boot or do without. In other words, Linux and Windows are not substitute goods; Linux does some things Windows can't (natively), and vice versa.

Apple, on the other hand, is producing a media player that can play the most popular open format (mp3), widely available formats (aac via the m4a format, wav), and a lesser proprietary format (Apple lossless). While aac files in .m4p format are indeed only available for use on the iPod, consider that iTunes does not have a monopoly on music sales. Indeed, many users of iPods find that filling up 40 gigabytes of hard drive space with music is an insanely expensive proposition for them, and get their music for free elsewhere.

Interestingly, most of the music I can get for free is in lame's VBR V0 format, free of any transcoding - higher quality than I can possibly need. For iTunes you pay a 30% premium to get that kind of quality.

GP is obviously interested in a war of words - being a "hard drive based" music player is not an advantage over being flash-based; indeed, flash-based players are less likely to die after a year or so of hard use. I drop my Nano on a regular basis on concrete, asphalt, etc., and it continues to play exactly as it did the day I bought it.

Oh, and tell me how many teenagers are going to put "Portable Digital Media Player" on their Christmas list.

Re:No

[Digz]

If you still have your Zune, sync and you'll see the new interface. Microsoft made it available for all of the first gens as well.. Running it on my $99 brownie now...

Re:No

[log0n]

You can only enter manual mode on an iPod that is already 'tied' to a particular machine/OS install/library/whathaveyou. Which IIRC can only be one machine at a time. It makes synching an iPod with an OSX and Windows/Bootcamp install tricky (managing the single music library between both OS's isn't hard).

Re:No

[arminw]

.....itunes is counter-intuitive and crash-prone on Windows.......

So what program ISN'T crash prone on Windows? Notepad? If you have an iPod, what is a radio for? To listen to commercials? Oh may the news oh yea the news! I can record on the ipod with an inexpensive add on that plugs right in.

Re:No

[mp3phish]

If I had meant "Bill of parts" I would have said it. You should have known that by the fact I gave you two separate points of reference to the cost of a player, both that Sandisk sells 2GB players on the retail market for around 50$, and that ipod nanos are speculated to cost about 50$ to manufacture (not to buy the parts for).

I know perfectly well how much the supply chain costs to a company like apple once it leaves the factory in china. And I can tell you that it is not one of the factors that increases the price of the product in any way on the scale of the discounts that are being offered.

Re:No

[SpryGuy]

The new zune PC software is vastly improved (all new), and the Zune UI itself is better as well. Update your Zune with the latest, and it should improve your experience. Your original zune's softare can be updated to get all the benefits of the new zune, save for the improved 'zune pad' (obviously, because that's hardware).

Re:No

[MyDixieWrecked]

My music selection was considerably larger than the 2GB Nano that I had bought so iTunes decided to randomly choose music from my collection to fill the device.

this is the main shortcoming of iTunes... that it wants to do this by default. Everyone I know who gets an iPod who can't figure out that they should disable this usually regrets getting their iPod when they encounter this issue.

A problem is that iTunes is NOT just a media player... it kinda takes some control away from you and when you finally realize that it does and just let it, it really makes managing your music require a lot less work... but it's not for everyone, as most people on here are aware of, I'm sure.

Re:No

[tieTYT]

He may be talking about the shuffle. The shuffle doesn't let you resync with another computer.

Re:No

[Daniel Phillips]

I am pretty sure that US antitrust law forbids monopolies from selling at a loss to gain market share/hurt competitors; MS is certainly not a monopoly in the music player business. It doesn't have to be. Google "cross subsidization" and "predatory marketing".

Re:No

[lyonsden]

Wow - Apple must be distributing a different version of iTunes in Europe

In the 'American' version that I use, you can turn the store and the annoying 'links to the iStore' in your library. It's in your preferences under General and Parental.

Don't like it? Don't use it! But don't spout obviously incorrect 'facts' about it!

Re:No

[cloakable]

I own a Creative Zen Touch :) Works extremely well with Amarok, and being built like a brick, with 24h battery life doesn't exactly put me off it either :D

Re:No

[T-Bone-T]

Anyone else find it amusing that the consensus on Slashdot seems to be that a Microsoft monopoly of OSes is evil but an Apple monopoly of mp3 players needs to be defended? What I find amusing is people claiming, after reading a story like this, that Apple has a monopoly in MP3 players.

Re:No

[T-Bone-T]

You do know that WMP11 is out now, right? I think they vastly improved the WMP experience in 10.

Re:No

[T-Bone-T]

Even if the part only cost $50, I'm sure the engineers and marketing weren't free.

Re:No

[ScrewMaster]

It's not rocket surgery.

Ah yes, but it is brain science.

Re:No

[PinkPanther]

Are you guys implying that Zune is so crappy that people won't want it even for free?

No, they are implying that they don't want one at the price of a gift. They're saying that many younger-gens will return said gift in exchange for $$ by which they will purchase something they actually prefer to own.

I'm not making a judgment as to whether this is right, just that this is what the above "guys" are implying.

Personally I'm of the mindset that many of the "stuff" that I get as a gift is just that: stuff. I appreciate the thought, but in reality unless the person (or my sig-other) is me the item I receive is likely different from that which I will buy myself. I'm not someone who wants for much and doesn't need anything (and am thankful for that). So I ask that my friends/family spend time with me rather than scouring a mall. I am getting a lot of sighs-of-relief from others in my circle who agree with me.

Smart gifts for the kids, a visit/drink with the adults. I know it comes off sounding like Scrooge, but I honestly believe it is the Right Thing To Do.

Re:No

[vuffi_raa]

that may have some confusion to do with the design- a ton of people I know can't tell the difference between the ipod touch and the iphone since they look the same- I have seen the same thing in stores where you go in and the ipod touch is in the phone section and not the player section

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm... I can't decide if it is something Zapp Branigan would say or Dr. Zoidberg.

Re:No

[mabhatter654]

M$, M$, M$... I'm feeling grown up today, You can't make me....

Now that outburst is out of the way...

Realize that Zune is not Plays-for-sure... Microsoft took Zune out of that program and created it's own store, with it's own deals, Microsoft's way or the highway. Plays-for-sure stores and music don't work on Zune only the Zune marketplace. So Zune is EXACTLY like iTunes in terms of vendor lock-in... only iTunes at least works on 2 OSes!

Apple didn't "buy" it's way in, it built up it's business slow and steady.. the first few years of iPods were awful and iTunes didn't really work well until version 4 or so. What Apple did do was to beat up music labels to get them at the table with reasonable terms for online music sales... THAT was the innovation.. or at least hard work nobody else did.. even now, the labels simply want to copy their agreements with Apple, but dictate that to other stores for better terms... that's not innovative and won't work. I don't see Microsoft's terms being better because if these labels start READING the Microsoft terms, they are far worse that Apple's... doubly so when you realize Microsoft has a monopoly on desktop PC OSes and your company is being used as a pawn.

Re:No

[Srikant]

That player has existed for some time - the Toshiba gigabeat f series. Admittedly, it only goes up to 60 gb so I can't fit my music collection in there (mine is 40 gb) and you have to reflash it to rockbox. I got mine (40 gb) for ~$100 when it was still being sold and it now actually sells at a premium on ebay. I like the fact that its battery life is super long too (atleast 16 h) and that it comes with an AC adapter and remote by default and that it is well built enough to jog with even though it is hdd based. I did buy a zune when it was on woot for $85 but its worth is at best a quarter of the toshiba. It is pretty useless as an mp3 player for me as it doesn't have a directory structure (and because the creator of the id3 format is an idiot who didn't even leave fields for basic options in classical music like the conductor, orchestra, soloist etc. which makes the id3 quite useless for classical music).

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

Never even try to argue with the astroturfing appletroll roughlydrafted, he will crush you with his Apple Zeal. When you meet crazy people on the street carrying signs and placards explaining in great detail how the Clintons are in fact Lizard people from Venus here to suck our souls through the UN, don't even start reading the pamphlets. They will make a crazy kind of sense and suck you in because, let's face it, the Zealots have a lot of time to work on this garbage while you are out enjoying life. Same thing with roughlydrafted, just ignore it and eventually it will go away and bother someone else.

Re:No

[Deliveranc3]

It was amazingly difficult to figure out. The default isn't to put files onto your device, and changing is NOT intuitive.

It's crap software, way to defend garbage.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

Never even try to argue with this astro turfing apple troll roughlydrafted, he will crush you with his Apple Zeal. When you meet crazy people on the street carrying signs and placards explaining in great detail how the Clintons are in fact Lizard people from Venus here to suck our souls through the UN, don't even start reading the pamphlets. They will make a crazy kind of sense and suck you in because, let's face it, the Zealots have a lot of time to work on this garbage while you are out enjoying life. Same thing with roughlydrafted, just ignore it and eventually it will go away and bother someone else.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

Never even try to argue with the roughlydrafted appletroll astroturfer because he will crush you with his Apple Zeal. When you meet crazy people on the street carrying signs and placards explaining in great detail how the Clintons are in fact Lizard people from Venus here to suck our souls through the UN, don't even start reading the pamphlets. They will make a crazy kind of sense and suck you in because, let's face it, the Zealots have a lot of time to work on this garbage while you are out enjoying life. Same thing with roughlydrafted, just ignore it and eventually it will go away and bother someone else.

Re:No

[zoips]

Microsoft doesn't even manufacture the Zune. If you don't like the hardware, bitch at Toshiba; it's just a rebranded Toshiba product.

Re:No

[pimpimpim]

Sorry, I don't agree, a very iPod literate friend of mine had her iPod fully erased when connecting her iPod to a friend's PC in a hurry. If one click of an automatic pop-up menu can erase your whole iPod, something is wrong by design. Why doesn't it recognize if it's your own PC you are connecting to or not? Why doesn't it automatically add music in stead of overwriting an almost completely full iPod with a few MB of songs from someone else's PC?

Re:No

[zoips]

I'd say look at Archos, but no one ever does when I say it. So I guess I just did again, and I guess once again no one will bother. Nevermind the fact that Archos devices hands down support the widest range of file formats and subscription services, operate as removable drives, and generally just rock in all ways possible.

Re:No

[rtb61]

Perhaps you would prefer this, it is yet another M$=B$ marketing story. M$ yet again publicly makes a fool out of itself by ignoring the capacity of the internet to correct misleading advertising. M$ continually acknowledges the importance of the internet but time and time again the M$=B$ marketdroids push ahead with the same stupid marketing gimmicks.

Perhaps M$ might be immature but then it would be an accurate description of a company that continually displays immature business tactics. Two 2 eyes, might have been blind to the OS advantage they were giving away (IBM and Intel), but M$ has failed in the consumer market beyond the OS, time and time again. Of course technically this marketing might not be targeted at consumers as much as being targeted at investors.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a big portion of andi-Apple MS fanbois that won't buy an iPod simply because it's "Apple" and stupid. They don't want to understand fair use and such all they see is Apple's higher price and tie-in... they pirate everything anyway so "buying" media isn't a big deal. In that segment iPod/iTunes will never make sense.

I've pirated MANY things over the years (still do, in fact). Pre-torrenting and all. However, I still (up until VERY recently when my douchbag roommate borrowed and broke the damn thing) own an iPod and enjoyed it very much. I plan to buy another as soon as cash allows. I care not for being trendy (honestly, I use it mostly in the car, going to work). I simply find I can't beat the simplicity of it's podcasting setup. I am not a Mac user (though I love the hardware, just don't really have the bucks for it (it's cheaper, but not cheaper ENOUGH :D)), but I am without doubt not a MS fanboy (though I do genuinely enjoy the Xbox 360). I run Linux, but reboot to windows for WoW (My lappies videocard is sadly too much of a PITA to get it to work easily with Wine).

If there's any sort of MP3 player that handles podcasts like the iPod does, I'd gladly consider jumping ship, but from my few experiences, it's the tops for me (or would some other software fill the void? I'm fairly new to Linux, but open to suggestions...).

Re:No

[True Vox]

Personally I'm of the mindset that many of the "stuff" that I get as a gift is just that: stuff. I appreciate the thought, but in reality unless the person (or my sig-other) is me the item I receive is likely different from that which I will buy myself. I'm not someone who wants for much and doesn't need anything (and am thankful for that). So I ask that my friends/family spend time with me rather than scouring a mall. I am getting a lot of sighs-of-relief from others in my circle who agree with me.

Smart gifts for the kids, a visit/drink with the adults. I know it comes off sounding like Scrooge, but I honestly believe it is the Right Thing To Do.
No, I think that's quite the valid point. I've felt that way since a year or two after high school, and I'm not that old (24 isn't old yet, is it? Maybe not young, but not old, right? :D). Spending time (like, real time, or F2F if you must, not IMing, or hooking up on the cell on the drive home from work) with friends and loved ones (not always one and the same ;D) is something I really value. I'm far from rich (too many bills from a long but ultimately failed engagement), but my needs are met. It's truly a shame that our holidays have become something so much about gifts and "things" and so little about the people giving them. Thanks for putting into words something I've been thinking a long time.

Re:No

[True Vox]

the XBox being far outsold by Nintendo
I love the Wii as much as anyone, but the 360 is still holding up ok, near as I can tell. Not winning, but a steady #2, far outstripping the PS3, which hasn't even cought the up to the 360 from last year.

Beyond that, I pretty much agree with ya.

Re:No

[Dilaudid]

Read the context. GP was explaining that the article was wrong, and that apple holds positions 1,2,3,4,6,7,8,9,10 in the list of best selling music players. Zune came in at #24.

Re:No

[T-Bone-T]

I know what the context is. I'm not stupid. If you think Apple has a monopoly, you are wrong.

Re:No

[Dilaudid]

Sorry didn't mean to piss you off... having a big market share doesn't make apple evil - it's just a reflection of the fact they've got no decent competition. The reason MS get bashed is because they used underhand tactics to try to exclude competition. Apple don't do that. My comparison was unfair.

Re:No

[tehcyder]

Here, Zune takes spots 1,2, and 4 (Brown, Black and White, respectively)

So, for all the piss-taking here about the shitty brown colour, it's actually the most popular choice? Amazing.

story is bull

[friesandgravy]

story is complete bull. go check amazon, as of today, 1:30 EST, apple mp3 players are at places 1,2,4,5,6,7,8. the zune is number 9. (apple continues at places 11, 12, 13, 18 ...) http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/electronics/172630/ref=pd_ts_e_nav

Re:story is bull

[yakumo.unr]

mod up parent, story seems bunkum.

Re:story is bull

[Tmack]

Article reads like a piece of Micro$oft marketing after actually looking at Amazon's numbers. Looks like they are willing to try anything, even outright lying, to get their shiny turd to sell. Sure, Amazon might have shown the Zune at no1, but was that during a stats update before the iPod sales were tallied? Looks like M$ once again trying to create hype: "Oh look! Its selling at No1 and stores are selling out! Better go get one now before you wont be able to get your nephew's xmass gift!!".

The supporting links to it being in short supply in TFA are even broken, leading me to think that stores ordered maybe 2 or 3 knowing how poorly they sell, and once those were gone, have just been ordering per request.

Tm

Re:story is bull

[Anonymous Coward]

In the story's defense, the Zune was at the #1 position a week or two ago. No doubt the rankings changed once holiday shopping started ramping up.

If I recall, the list was something like this:

1. Zune
2. Some kind of iPod
3. Some other kind of iPod
4. Yet another kind of iPod
5. etc...

Re:story is bull

[jplkeekif]

Strangely enough, if you organize by type of MP3 player (hard drive based) the Zune comes out above the rest. http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/electronics/15752041/ref=pd_ts_e_nav

Re:story is bull

[Aetuneo]

I hate to defend Microsoft, but Amazon is not the only place people buy stuff from. It's like going to a single bookstore, asking for their sales figures, and deciding which books are best-sellers based on only that. While it might be good for finding out what the people who go to that bookstore like to read, it's not going to tell you about the entire country.

Re:story is bull

[MightyYar]

It was at #1 a couple of days ago, and no wonder! It was priced so low that it couldn't have been above cost. Hell, I'm an iPod fan but I would have gotten that brown stinker if I was in the market for a music player.

Note that the full-price second generation Zune is way down at #22... probably because it is competing directly with the iPod 80GB, which is #8.

Right after Christmas might be a good time to pick up a solid-state Zune... they are currently coming in at #58 (compared to Apple's #3 Nano). I'm assuming that a similar fire sale will happen for that model.

Don't under-estimate the Zune... it's not a bad little gadget, though I'm not really sure what its compelling feature is. The iPod is so ubiquitous that even the alarm clock in the hotel that I stayed in had an iPod dock on the alarm clock... cars are equipped with iPod docks, I even saw a fireplace with an iPod dock. Why stray from such a big aftermarket? That, and I happen to prefer iTunes as a music organizer.

Re:story is bull

[kripkenstein]

story is complete bull. go check amazon, as of today, 1:30 EST, apple mp3 players are at places 1,2,4,5,6,7,8. the zune is number 9. (apple continues at places 11, 12, 13, 18 ...) http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/electronics/172630/ref=pd_ts_e_nav Indeed, complete bull. I immediately went to the list of top MP3 players on Amazon, just like you, and it is just as you said - Apple's iPod dominates the chart taking 8 out of the top ten; the first Zune is at #9, doing more poorly than even the SanDisk Sansa at #3. The iPod Touch seems to be doing very well at #5 and #6, contradicting TFA. This is basically the same picture I've seen every other time I checked Amazon's rankings, with minor changes.

The issue is probably the heading on Amazon's page, "Updated hourly." Perhaps if you wait long enough, you will see a fluke hour in which the Zune outsells the iPod. Now, surely the Yahoo tech reporter knew this was an unrepresentative oddity? If so, then this is deception; if not, then this is incompetence.

Re:story is bull

[ThreeGigs]

Amazon's numbers aren't right.

Overall MP3 list shows 80GB iPod at #4. This is a hard drive based player, no? It's the highest ranked HD based player on the 'complete' list.

Yet, if you narrow it down to show only HD based players, suddenly the Zune is beating it.

*Amazon* seems a bit confused, no wonder the press is too.

Re:story is bull

[sponga]

The story is complete bull because it is 1.5 weeks old, late to the game as usual around here.

It is a sort of 'bait story', to make sure that MS is in the wrong and the bashing can continue.

Re:story is bull

[Anonymous Coward]

That would leave out flash-based MP3 players like the Nano and Shuffle.

Re:story is bull

[nominanuda]

you'll notice, however, that all the ipods in that category are 4th and 5th generation. So the mp3 players on that list all seem to be older out-of-date models (maybe they're no longer separating new models into "flash-based" and "hard-drive" based categories?), which makes drawing any conclusions from that sales data pretty much impossible

Re:story is bull

[jellomizer]

The Zune was the Number 1 player between 3:00 EST - 4:00 EST where the total MP3 Players sold during that time was 4 and 2 of them were Zunes. Also looking at their normal spot it is actually kinda bad considering most of the other spots are by DIFFERENT COLORS OF iPODS! I would care more of an aggregate iPods vs. Zunes and you will see the real numbers.

Re:story is bull

[nominanuda]

I posted this in response to another response above:

"you'll notice, however, that all the ipods in that category are 4th and 5th generation. So the mp3 players on that list all seem to be older out-of-date models (maybe they're no longer separating new models into "flash-based" and "hard-drive" based categories?), which makes drawing any conclusions from that sales data pretty much impossible."

because if you narrow things down, as you suggest, the top-selling hard-drive based model is an older (?) Brown 30 gb model, not the 80gb model that is number 9 in the big list. That HD-Based list looks completely out of date to me, since there doesn't seem to be any model from this year in that list.

Re:story is bull

[LaughingCoder]

If you look closer at the page you linked you will notice the list is updated hourly. Now, the article was dated 11/19, which is two weeks ago. The article also talks about sub $150 pricing, whereas the current price listed for Zunes is back up to $180. The story may be old, but you have presented no evidence that it is bunk. What this tells me is that, if Microsoft was willing to cut margins to the bone (or possibly sell at a loss) they could gain substantial marketshare. I strongly suspect those ultra-low prices on Zune 30GB were just to clear out room on retail shelves for the new models, but it is interesting how much that increased demand, proving that Apple is vulnerable.

Re:story is bull

[cyber-vandal]

Have a read of the top of the page again and then come back :P

Re:story is bull

[Lumpy]

Or the fact that Toys-R-us had the Zune on sale for $60.00 (Brown only) during black friday and did not sell out of them. As of 5:00pm Black friday the toys r us near here still had 30 units and a sign that said "early bird special price extended through saturday!".

Nobody wants the Zune. Even at give it away pricing nobody is buying it. Now, Msft release a firmware update that opens it up so it will play mp3's directly and fix the stupid expire on beamed mp3's and they could actually challenge the mp3.

But them removing the complete DRM and design flaws will never ever happen.

Re:story is bull

[that this is not und]

Why stray from such a big aftermarket?

Sorry. We're a bunch of contrary nerds here.

Why let 'the market' herd us around?

Re:story is bull

[ocirs]

Maybe it's because both Zunes are sold out by Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/Zune-Digital-Media-Player-Generation/dp/B000WG6XW6/ref=pd_ts_e_9?ie=UTF8&s=electronics http://www.amazon.com/Zune-Digital-Media-Player-Brown/dp/B000H0QDCC/ref=pd_ts_e_15?ie=UTF8&s=electronics

Re:story is bull

[Durandal64]

Not only that, but the date on the blog post was 19 November. Just a bit late, guys.

Re:story is bull

[samkass]

What this tells me is that, if Microsoft was willing to cut margins to the bone (or possibly sell at a loss) they could gain substantial marketshare.

Duh. Microsoft is desperate to expand their monopoly to new areas, and the XBox/Zune group has yet to have an annual profit (they were profitable for 1 quarter of their existence so far). It's amazing that Apple is able to compete, let alone dominate, against a company that isn't interested in making a profit. And unlike Microsoft, Apple's MAKING money doing it!

I know a lot of people are willing to buy the Windows and Office-subsidized Zune and XBox products, but I don't really feel like letting Microsoft get away with that kind of practice.

Re:story is bull

[djwavelength]

Something is left out when you filter on the subgroups. iPods are not #1 in any of the sub-categories, only the root one.

Re:story is bull

[Opportunist]

Umm... when the different colors of IPods sell separately more units than MS sells Zune, do you really think their position would change when you aggregate them?

Oh, sure, the Zune would snap sharply from rank 9 to 2...

Re:story is bull

[ByTor-2112]

How can an iPod be #1 overall but not win in any of the other categories... That doesn't seem mathematically possible unless they are just plain wrong or terribly out of sync.

Re:story is bull

[Anonymous Coward]

so, microsoft asks amazon to list each ipod differently so they can claim one hour of supremacy at the beginning of December, this just looks desperate.

Re:story is bull

[leodavinci0]

As of 5:00 PM EST it's pretty much the same thing. It's good to see people check the facts.

Re:story is bull

[LaughingCoder]

I don't really feel like letting Microsoft get away with that kind of practice

Duh. So you would rather give Apple big profits? That's odd, because around \., I thought profit was a dirty word. Oh wait, I get it. It's OK for the "good guys" to make a profit (even a BIG profit by gouging), but the "evil ones" must never make a penny. Hey, here's a thought. Maybe we could all put Microsoft out of business by buying their loss-leaders. Maybe we should all buy Zunes and XBoxes, and tell our friends to do the same. We should give them as gifts. And buy a spare or too. Every purchase hurts them. And since Microsoft's Office-Windows profits aren't infinite, we could push them towards bankruptcy. Why isn't that a good idea? Hmmmm, what's a zealot to do?

Re:story is bull

[sk999]

<>

Actually the story is so 2-weeks-ago. Back then I checked Amazon and Zune was indeed number 1 - it
just couldn't maintain that position.

Re:story is bull

[Paradise Pete]

How can an iPod be #1 overall but not win in any of the other categories... That doesn't seem mathematically possible

3A 4B 1C 1D

6A 1B 7C 2D

5A 2B 1C 6D

There are way more As than anything else, but it's not first on any line.

Re:story is bull

[samkass]

Duh. So you would rather give Apple big profits? That's odd, because around \., I thought profit was a dirty word

I dunno about "around Slashdot", but yes, I have no moral objection to buying Apple products or any company making a profit. I do object to Microsoft's monopoly money that they got through anti-competitive and under-handed means being leveraged to sell Zunes and XBoxes at a loss in order to conquer a new market. It's really hard to compete against a company with virtually infinite money that doesn't care about making a profit on the product they're competing with you on.

That is the sort of "competition" that actually hurts consumers. As long as everyone's selling things profitably I can be sure that inefficiencies are being driven out of the process and capitalism is working. When people sell things at a loss and pays for it by channeling money from another monopoly it subverts the market.

Re:story is bull

[fermion]

I mentioned this in the last Zune story. Zune was not the top selling MP3 by Amazon, but was, combining all Zune sales, the top MP3 player sold through Amazon by Beach Camera. For Zunes sold through Amazon, it was beat out by not only Apple, but also Sansdisk.

Based on the Amazon sales rank, there is not indication that Zune has become a market leader, even at deeply discounted prices. All evidence suggests, in fact, that Zune is in at most third place. The reason for this, I believe, is that MP3 players, unlike video games and computer, are not marked up hugely and therefore there is little room to maneuver, unless one wants to take a huge loss. On computers, MS outsources the loss to the sheep OEMs, on the xBox, they are taking a loss, but probably not as much as people think, and they can make it up in video games sales. There is little means for them to dump MP3 players on the market without taking a real long term loss that they can't make up by other means. Therefore the long method of dumping product to drive competitors out of the market is not feasible in the MP3 market. MS must build a genuinely superior product.

Re:story is bull

[daviddennis]

There appears to be a new 30gb Zune and most likely the fire sale was to try and sell out the old model first.

I saw a new 30gb Zune at the Wal*Mart in Belle Vernon, PA. It doesn't seem to be for sale anywhere else, including (last time I checked a couple of days ago) Wal-Mart's web site or Best Buy.

Don't ask me why an obscure rural hamlet got it first; it seems strange to me too. Here are pictures I took at my Wal*Mart:

http://amazing.com/creations/show/8561

D

Re:story is bull

[homer_ca]

The 2nd gen hard drive Zune only comes in 80GB. All 30GB Zunes are 1st gen, and the $90 sale on brown Zunes was likely to clear out old stock even if they were brand new vs. refurb.

Re:story is bull

[I'm Don Giovanni]

"The iPod is so ubiquitous that even the alarm clock in the hotel that I stayed in had an iPod dock on the alarm clock... cars are equipped with iPod docks, I even saw a fireplace with an iPod dock. Why stray from such a big aftermarket?"

So iPod's ecosystem feeds into iPod vendor-lockin. For example, people that own iPod-enabled cars feel compelled to use iPods. Seems similar to the Windows ecosystem/lockin that slashdotters rail against.

Re:story is bull

[nine-times]

apple mp3 players are at places 1,2,4,5,6,7,8. the zune is number 9. (apple continues at places 11, 12, 13, 18

Well, and ignoring what shows up at number 1, that Apple shows up in all those places shows that the iPod *line* is dominating the market. It's not too astoundingly great for Microsoft that they can hit the top spot, considering that the iPod line is being split into every color of every size of every model. Combine all those models' sales and ask, "Who is selling the most MP3 players?" and I'm pretty sure you'll find that Apple is blowing everyone else out of the water.

Re:story is bull

[Bluesman]

Capitalism works because customers always have a choice between buying and not buying. Even if you're the only game in town, you have to price your products and services attractively, because there's always the other option that people simply won't buy your stuff. People still have a choice to do without general-purpose desktop computers at all (many do) if they don't feel they are worth the investment. Society does not collapse.

When people say capitalism works, they don't mean "the marketplace will find the absolute best possible solution to all problems." They simply mean that a free market, left to its own devices, will find an acceptable solution much more often and quickly than all other alternatives.

You can pokes holes in any system by comparing it to some arbitrary ideal, but realistically, unless we as humans all change our nature, join hands, gain some profound insight that enables us to predict all current and future unknowns, a free market is our next best shot at finding a workable allocation of scarce resources.

Re:story is bull

[MightyYar]

I guess for the same reason that I wouldn't buy a car that you can't get accessories for... though maybe that's a bad example since the auto market isn't 70% dominated by one company.

Re:story is bull

[MightyYar]

A good point, but not one I'm overly worried about until being stuck with the iPod sucks as badly as being stuck with Windows. (Please note that I did not say "Windows sucks", but being tied to it does.)

Re:story is bull

[that this is not und]

Well, I wouldn't buy an MP3 player that I can't get open-standard accessories for. That means my MP3 player uses a USB-standards based connector, and takes 'open standard' MMC or SD (closed, but with fallback to MMC it is acceptable) flash cards. And the interface to put MP3 files on it is basically ATAPI-on-USB. It recognizes standard ID3 tags on the MP3 tags, too.

I go into WalMart and see all the accessories that use the proprietary Ipod connector... but I can't buy that connector at DigiKey, let along off a pegboard at Frys, so I'd hardly call it a widely available connector, and certainly there's nothing open about it.

Re:story is bull

[MightyYar]

I know that there is not an "open" dock connector for them to use, so I don't know which mp3 player you use instead which is "open". And I don't know nuthin' about nuthin', but I know a db-25 connector would make a terrible dock. In any case, "I'm Feeling Lucky" on Google gives you this site, where you can get a connector shipped for under $10, so the criticism is probably not valid anymore. If USB is all you want, Apple includes that connector in the box. They would have to sell a unit with fewer features or larger size if they included the USB port on-device.

Re:story is bull

[that this is not und]

They would have to sell a unit with fewer features or larger size if they included the USB port on-device.

Huh? A USB connector is smaller than the one they use. They could lose the proprietary connector and just put a USB connector on the Ipod. There aren't any 'features' that couldn't be incorporated through a USB connector.

Oh, and my lord, why would you use a DB-25 connector when an Octal Tube Socket connector, or even better one of those big circular mil-spec connectors would do instead, and be bigger and much more expensive?? Or maybe a big Cinch-Jones connector.

Re:story is bull

[MightyYar]

There aren't any 'features' that couldn't be incorporated through a USB connector. Just off the top of my head - video out?

Operative Words are.....

[Anonymous Coward]

Heavily Discounted

Re:Operative Words are.....

[superpulpsicle]

The operative word should have been "Overpriced".

Re:Operative Words are.....

[Z00L00K]

Until market domination and patent monopoly when it will be heavily overpriced.

Re:Operative Words are.....

[_Sprocket_]

I'd buy that for a dollar!

Re:Operative Words are.....

[Opportunist]

Oh c'mon, we don't have to turn every thread into an iPhone flamewar.

Minute to minute...

[BWJones]

I suppose it depends on when you look at the numbers as Amazon gives discrete periods of time when items are selling vs. others. For instance, looking at it now, the Zune is #8, well behind 7 flavors of iPods...

Re:Minute to minute...

[dreadfire]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/electronics/172630/ref=pd_ts_e_nav
If you check that link, the zune is number 9. ... I guess some time during the week the zune sold a few more. I hate spin.

Re:Minute to minute...

[Anonymous Coward]

I imagine iPod is outselling Zune at Apple.com as well...Isn't that where most people buy iPods?

Re:Minute to minute...

[larry bagina]

You can buy iPods (and iPod accessories) almost everywhere. This week's grocery store flyer is advertising an iPod-dockable radio. Wal*Mart has tv ads that only mention the iPod. (That made me wonder if they've jumped the shark.)

Re:Minute to minute...

[hcmtnbiker]

Well from my quick check Apple isnt even close to dominating the flash MP3 players on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/electronics/15752081/ref=pd_ts_e_nav

And M$ seems to be doing very well in the HDD based MP3 players on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/electronics/15752041/ref=pd_ts_e_nav

Re:Minute to minute...

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you seriously that fucking stupid? Look at the first list again. Now tell me you have absolute confidence that Amazon gets 100% of their categorization right. For fuck's sake, use your brain.

Re:Minute to minute...

[Scoth]

From the iPod Touch 16GB:

List Price: $399.00
Price: $398.99
You Save: $0.01

Wow! Thanks Amazon!

Re:Minute to minute...

[drcagn]

Those lists are wrong. Neither list even contains the current generations of iPods.

The hard drive list has hardware discontinued years ago as #17.

Re:Minute to minute...

[edjs]

Okay, the Amazon lists make no sense. If you look at the overall top mp3 sellers (Amazon's most popular items in MP3 Players), the current generation Nano is #1 and #2, and a SanDisk Sansa M240 at #3, all flash. Presumably, as top sellers of the overall mp3 category, they should be top sellers when you drill down to the more specific category they're in. But not a single current Nano in the flash drive list top 25, nor in the portable digital media players list. And that Sansa M240 is also missing from the flash list.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Re:Minute to minute...

[Tom90deg]

Come come now. There's nothing worse than someone who wishes to be taken seriously, but uses childish name calling in the same argument. "M$"? If your facts are good, as they seem to be, there's not need to resort to such things.

Re:Minute to minute...

[Pantero Blanco]

Come come now. There's nothing worse than someone who wishes to be taken seriously, but uses childish name calling in the same argument. "M$"? If your facts are good, as they seem to be, there's not need to resort to such things.

Well, there are the people who make a stink every time someone says "M$" or "Micro$oft". This is Slashdot's comment section, not a press conference; don't expect people to refrain from mocking companies they don't like.

Re:Minute to minute...

[wish bot]

Many people find it to be a great abbreviation - perfectly apt, mildly humorous, with a twist of facetious venom. If this was your school debating team, then ok - maybe it wouldn't be appropriate - but school was many years ago for some of us and now we're just trying to have a fucking conversation, ok?

Re:Minute to minute...

[that this is not und]

Well, some of us like money. And we don't like Microsoft. So we don't like M$ which associates Microsoft with money.

Then there are those trust-fund babies who eschew money. And/or schoolboys and girls who are still living off mom and dad's $$. I suppose that must be who came up with the whole M$ thing.

Re:Minute to minute...

[Anonymous Coward]

List Price: $399.00
Price: $398.99
You Save: $1.00

Re:Minute to minute...

[Anonymous Coward]

399
389.99

That's 1 cent, jackass

Re:Minute to minute...

[morcheeba]

Try this link for a substantial discount ;-)
(thanks, nat!)

Re:Minute to minute...

[I'm Don Giovanni]

LOL
Yeah, and I see that the 2nd-gen 80GB Black Zune also has a 1 cent savings at Amazon. Too funny. :)

Re:Minute to minute...

[adpowers]

He was using Verizon math.

mp3 to go

[Chapter80]

All I really want for Christmas is an MP3 setup where several tech podcasts per day get downloaded automatically onto an MP3 player, and I carry it to my mini-van and listen to geek stuff on my hour-plus commute every day instead of mindless music.

being too lazy to look into it, I have remained MP3-playerless to date (even though our household has at least 6). Who wants to set this up for me. Pay ya.

Re:mp3 to go

[caffeinemessiah]

All I really want for Christmas is an MP3 setup where several tech podcasts per day get downloaded automatically onto an MP3 player, and I carry it to my mini-van and listen to geek stuff on my hour-plus commute every day instead of mindless music.

It seems like you might want one of these. I believe the new zunes have a wireless dock that grabs podcast subscriptions from your pc while it charges. not sure if the new ipod touch does that, but i'd be surprised if it didn't.

Re:mp3 to go

[antibryce]

iTunes/iPods have done this for a long long time. You can even subscribe to video podcasts if you have an ipod capable of playing it.

Re:mp3 to go

[childprey]

Go back to the mindless music so you can focus on the road instead of the podcast.

Re:mp3 to go

[SCHecklerX]

1) run a cron job with your favorite command line podcast grabbing tool
2) mount mp3 player as mass storage device
3) copy downloaded files to mp3 player (rsync is nice for this).

If you don't like the manual copy thing, then put the downloading software on the mp3 player itself, and have the cron job look for it (if it doesn't find it, then obviously your mp3 player is not mounted) to determine whether or not to download that night or not.

I sortof do this, but my car has a USB compatible head unit, so I don't bother doing it with my sansa (highly recommend, btw). I listen to NPR every day by copying to a cheap USB keydisk. I do manually download from the podcast archive for podrunner to the sansa for workouts though.

Using windoze? Sorry. Not my fault you chose to use such an inflexible tool, but I'm sure you can find all of the above in some form anyway.

An interesting concept is the sansa connect for streaming over wifi. I'd buy that in an instant if it wasn't locked down to using just Yahoo (let me use shoutcast streams, and I'd be all over it!)

Re:mp3 to go

[MightyYar]

Using windoze? Sorry. Not my fault you chose to use such an inflexible tool, but I'm sure you can find all of the above in some form anyway. Yes, quite a bit easier acually:
1. Download iTunes
2. Subscribe to some podcasts.
3. Sync your iPod.

Oh sure, you don't get to learn how to use wget or curl, bash scripting, cron, mount, and rsync. But you'll get to hear your podcasts.

Re:mp3 to go

[Anonymous Coward]

I told my girlfriend that I needed to do a cron job to her mass storage device. I am now alone playing with my wii.

Hah..

[Awod]

I like how no one comments.. guess it's reaching deaf ears here on /.

Re:Hah..

[Hymer]

We were just busy removing Microsofts hack on Amazon which showed that Zune is selling better that iPod...
We are back with you now... and Amazon shows the truth again.

Will it still sell when the price goes back up?

[loftwyr]

Will Microsoft be able to sell it through another outlet? What will be done with all the Generation One Zunes still on shelves? What percentage of these Gen 2 Zunes are being purchased by hapless parents who will see them returned by ungrateful children?

For the answer to this and many more questions, wait for December 26!

Re:Will it still sell when the price goes back up?

[toppavak]

After having used a Gen2 Zune a friend of mine recently purchased, if ungrateful children end up returning them, they'll have done so without ever bothering to actually use it. As an mp3 player the new Zune is definitely a pretty decent quality machine. In fact, I know several friends that purchased one and all of them love it for its base function as a media player. The screen is large and crisp, well suited to video. Audio quality is perceived to be indistinguishable from other popular mainstream media players. Build quality is good- they have a nice satisfying heft and feel to the body. Just enough weight and stiffness to the build to give the user confidence that its well built.

As one of the few people I've ever met that complains about the iPod's scroll-wheel and UI in general rather vocally, you might want to take my comments with a grain or two of salt. I've always been a Creative/iRiver/Samsung user and nothing I've seen from apple has really driven me to consider changing my stance on this. If I were thinking about getting a larger HD based media player with good video support, I can see myself drifting from a Zen/Vision:W/Vision:M to a Zune however even after having made an effort to borrow the new offerings from apple and give them a trial whirl, I've yet to understand what draws so many people to the iPod. Oddly, the majority of my friends seem to feel the same way- not counting the one or two apple fanatics I know.

Re:Will it still sell when the price goes back up?

[gad_zuki!]

>What will be done with all the Generation One Zunes still on shelves?

Resent to MS and then sold online. I got my zune for 80 dollars from woot. They go for, at most, 100 dollars which is an incredible bargain. I'm not a big fan of defining your life through how much money you can spend on expensive things: ipod.

Suddenly, a blog is old media

[GarfBond]

Why listen to a blog pontificating on something they know nothing about when you can go straight to the source? http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/electronics/172630/ref=pd_ts_e_nav.

As of MY press time, Zune 80 is #9. iPods occupy spots 1,2, and 4-8. #3 is a Sansa of some variety, #9 is a Zune, and #10 is another Sansa. 11-14 are different nano varieties, and all the way at #15 is a Zune spot.

Feel free to come up with your own crackpot theory as to why this is. My favorite is the Zune isn't popular unless it's dirt cheap.

Re:Suddenly, a blog is old media

[vidarh]

It's worth reiterating one point you make: There are tons of different versions of the iPod on the list. Specifically, each and every combination of colors and flash/disk and model is on there somewhere. As far as I know there are far more versions of iPod's than there are of Zune's. So even if a single Zune model every now and again shoots to the top, it means nothing. Unless there are suddenly 10+ different Zune versions overtaking the various iPod models on an ongoing basis, Apple still has the upper hand.

Re:Suddenly, a blog is old media

[wuputah]

And the 80 GB iPod is even $4 cheaper. "Heavily discounted for the Holiday season" ... just like the iPod ?

Re:Suddenly, a blog is old media

[alanQuatermain]

Okay, here's something interesting:

• On the MP3 Players list, the iPod is doing really well.
• On the Flash-based sub-list, the Sansa holds the top spot.
• On the HDD-based sub-list, the Zune holds the top spot.

Now go back and look at that first list, and take note of the iPods in the top few places. Done that? Okay, your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to locate those same models on either of the other two lists.

No luck? Okay, just find *any* of the current generation of iPods (iPod Classic, iPod touch, iPod shuffle (clip version), iPod nano w/video) on the two narrowed lists. In fact, I don't see the new Zunes on those lists either, when it's apparently at #9 (at time of posting) on the general list. Nothing in the top 12 places on the general list appears in either of the other two.

So, it turns out there's a pretty simple explanation for this:
Amazon hasn't tagged the latest generations of iPods or Zunes as either HDD- or flash-based.
As a result, they just don't show in those sub-lists. And since the price-dropped 1st Gen. Zune is proving more popular than last-season's iPods, it appears above them on all lists of which they are a member, including the general list (it's at #15 right now-- the 30Gb Brown one). It just happens to place behind all the current models from both manufacturers.

-Q

Re:Suddenly, a blog is old media

[GIL_Dude]

I'd agree with your statement about the Zune not being popular unless it is cheap. I am NOT the target market for these music players (Apple, Microsoft or other) as I don't buy them - however I have several that I got for free. For example a couple of years back when they were new, I got three gen 1 2 GB Nano's in some Beta testing contests like best bug, first security bug, etc. A couple of week ago - the week before the Gen 2 Zune's came out - I was at a MS conference and they handed out Gen 1 Zune's to everyone.

So, having both devices I obviously like the 30 GB storage on the Zune better than the (much older and much smaller in size) 2 GB Nano. However the touch wheel on the Nano kicks the butt of the "thingy" that controls the Zune. The fit and finish of the Nano is better even though it is an old model now. (Obviously can't compare the storage as one is small and flash based and out of date while the other is a year or so old and larger with a hard drive). Just the design though - Apple's kicks the Zune's butt. That said, if it is cheap enough - people will find it is "good enough" at that low price.

I certainly find it to be perfectly acceptable for free!

Re:Suddenly, a blog is old media

[fm6]

Since when did accuracy or fact checking have anything to do with "new media"? NM is about reports that are fasts not accurate, and the "wisdom of the crowd", not expertise.

Re:Suddenly, a blog is old media

[A_Non_Moose]

#3 is a Sansa of some variety

Expect it to drop soon, as Sansa's are the iPod's best advertisements:

As the owner of a 1G sansa that suffered the "lockup of death".
Think "click of death", all other Sansa's have a way to "reset" the device, except for
the early products.

Bought an 8G e200v2, and one of the first things I went to do was put the device into
MSC mode (work as thumb drive), as per the directions that came with it.

Guess what?

Not available with v2 device! Critical feature removed for no apparent reason.

Who's the fucking moron that decided that?

Top it off with some MP3's will lock the device, heck even first gen product (the 1G) would
give you a text file (crude DB) and tell which ones were f'd up.

Returning it for an iPod is looking *very* tempting right now.

Can't use it as a thumb drive, MP3's cause lockups, support via email is the only option and
2weeks w/o a response...yeah, drive me to the competition...that's the way to go.

Hurmph.

PROTIP:

[Hobbs0]

Don't post articles on what is or isn't on amazons bestseller list. Because as soon as you do this, amazon will prove you wrong.

Success for Windows-media Based Subscriptions?

[TomHandy]

How would this spell success for Windows-media based subscription services, since the Zune doesn't support PlaysForSure?

Re:Success for Windows-media Based Subscriptions?

[Anonymous Coward]

PlaysForWhat ???

Re:Success for Windows-media Based Subscriptions?

[emurphy42]

In case this isn't a troll, here is the obligatory Wikipedia link.

Re:Success for Windows-media Based Subscriptions?

[pxuongl]

because the zune store also allows you to go subscription as well:

http://www.zune.net/en-us/products/zunemarketplace/default.htm
Download or subscription? Downloading songs and music videos a la carte from Zune Marketplace is simple using Microsoft® Points, which work across both Zune and Xbox LIVE® Marketplace. Or choose a Zune Pass subscription, which gives you access to unlimited music downloads from millions of available songs for a flat rate of $14.99 per month. (DRM-free MP3s, videos, and some songs are not available via Zune Pass.) Fill your device with new music whenever you want and keep those songs as long as you keep your Zune Pass up to date. A Zune Pass can be used on up to three PCs and three Zune devices, making it the perfect choice for families and music lovers.

Re:Success for Windows-media Based Subscriptions?

[Opportunist]

Because people would think it is (hey, it would make sense), thus buy and then find out they can't use it.

And whether you can use some content is irrelevant. What matters is that you buy it.

Re:Success for Windows-media Based Subscriptions?

[TomHandy]

Which has nothing to do with the success of other Windows Media-based subscription services - the Zune Marketplace allows you to use a Zune Marketplace subscription; you can't use Napster or any other PlaysForSure Windows Media-based subscriptions.

Re:Success for Windows-media Based Subscriptions?

[TomHandy]

And for a subscription service, what matters is that you continue your subscription. Using the scenario you outlined (people who buy a subscription to Napster or whatever, assuming they should be able to use it with their Zune), you'd still end up with people who buy a subscription, find out it doesn't work, and then cancel and use the Zune Marketplace subscription, if anything. So again, I don't see how the relative success of the Zune benefits other PlaysForSure subscription services. If anything I think it makes things even worse, assuming that the Zune's success eats into other PlaysForSure capable MP3 players that aren't iPods, and that people bought because they did want subscriptions.

predatory pricing

[m2943]

I think that sort of thing is called "predatory pricing": pricing something below cost in order to drive a competitor out of business. It's frowned upon in a free market, in particular when a company uses one monopoly to support predatory pricing in a different market.

Of course, given that Apple itself dominates the MP3 player market so much, I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry...

Re:predatory pricing

[PolarBearFire]

I don't think it's Microsoft itself setting the prices, the retailers are. Unlike Microsoft, Apple is pretty anal about the iPod prices at the retail level. Don't know if Microsoft is selling the Zune at a loss to retailer tho, you may have a point. But really, Zune is cheaper than the iPod but I gotta believe somone is making money off it.

Re:predatory pricing

[ivan256]

Microsoft was always selling them at a loss to retailers. Now they're selling them at a huge loss to make way for the new versions.

Woot had them for $79 the other day...

Oh, and I assure you that the retailers are making money off it... Or the Zune wouldn't even be on the shelf.

Re:predatory pricing

[Anonymous Coward]

keep in mind that the zune v2 came out recently.

Assume you're a retailer. You bought a shipment of zunes (v1) and didn't sell all (or any) of them. Now the the zune v2, with better features, lower price, whatever is released.

Your only option is to drop the price of the zune v1 (possibly to the point of taking a loss). If you do sell it below cost, that sucks, but it's effectively a tax credit, and you've already spent the money so any income is better than none.

Re:predatory pricing

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that sort of thing is called "predatory pricing": pricing something below cost in order to drive a competitor out of business.

This is the old 30GB Zune. The new Zune's are being sold at full price.

Re:predatory pricing

[RightSaidFred99]

Interesting - I assume you have some sort of basis for claiming they are selling below cost?

Re:predatory pricing

[Chokolad]

> Microsoft was always selling them at a loss to retailers.

And you know this how ?

Re:predatory pricing

[Anonymous Coward]

Do your own research; there are several analyses of the hardware costs of the Zune around. You can also compare the Zune against hardware that we know is manufactured about as cheaply as possible and has no margin. Even with those, the Zune pricing isn't working out for Microsoft, and that's not even taking into account the huge R&D costs, which Microsoft is subsidizing from Windows and Office sales.

Re:predatory pricing

[bogjobber]

No, this is a sale. They're trying to get rid of old inventory that's no longer selling well. It's only considered predatory pricing if you successfully drive a competitor out and then raise the prices. The Zune would actually have to be beating the iPod for anything remotely resembling predatory pricing to occur.

Re:predatory pricing

[ivan256]

A number of analysts agreed that Microsoft was losing about $50 each on the units at launch. Microsoft themselves hinted that it was a loss-leader product, and they expected to take two to five years to start making a profit on the device. Of course, since the losses from such a low-volume product are reported in the same bottom line as the black hole of cash that is the Xbox 360, it's hard to tell exactly how much they're losing...

Competiton is good

[Ckwop]

My key question is whether they're selling them for less than they cost to make. If so, then it's probably a dumping case waiting to happen.

In many ways I welcome the competition. Although Apple seem to have a halo on Slashdot, they are every bit as nasty as Microsoft in this department. Apple want to lock you in to the Fairplay every bit as much as Microsoft wants to lock you in to Windows Media DRM.

On a totally off topic point. Can you remove the flash ads Rob? They're fucking irritating and really cheapen the site. Even if I gave a shit about what they're peddling, you should know that many on Slashdot aren't going to click those things on principle. Get the marketing diarrhoea off the site please.

Re:Competiton is good

[TomHandy]

Apple wants to lock you into FairPlay? Then how does their move to iTunes Plus DRM-free tracks (with EMI, as well as being offered with a number of indie labels now) jibe with that? Apple has extended DRM-free track offerings to the other labels as well, but they haven't bought into it yet (because they want to try and build up competitors like Amazon.com's DRM-free MP3 store). But seriously, what is your evidence that Apple WANTS to continue locking people in via FairPlay? I can't see anything that indicates that.

Re:Competiton is good

[dfn_deux]

The sword cuts both ways my friend, Microsoft likewise offers DRM free mp3 tracks though the zune market place...

Re:Competiton is good

[crankyspice]

Although Apple seem to have a halo on Slashdot, they are every bit as nasty as Microsoft in this department. Apple want to lock you in to the Fairplay every bit as much as Microsoft wants to lock you in to Windows Media DRM.

ORLY? "Convincing [the big music companies] to license their music to Apple and others DRM-free will create a truly interoperable music marketplace. Apple will embrace this wholeheartedly." http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughtsonmusic/

Re:Competiton is good

[mrsteveman1]

Yea, now that it's "cool".

MS plan has always been to center all media around windows, everything they do is to further that goal. The only reason they are selling DRM-less tracks is they have to in order to have any chance whatsoever of competing.

If the situation were turned around with MS at the top of the market, they would be closing things even further like always.

Re:Competiton is good

[dfn_deux]

Speculation as to what they would be doing were things different is pretty worthless, as it is only speculation. Their motivations for providing something that has some value to me as a customer isn't a very interesting topic, IMHO, because in the end their motivation neither increases nor decreases the value of their offering. Similarly their restructuring of the DRM terms for "zune pass" AYCE downloads has tilted the cost/benefit strongly towards making this service something which I find valuable and the limits seem not to impede too much on how I wish to use the music (fair use principle may say I should be able to play this music on whatever device I want, but in reality I'm fine with playing it on up to 3 windows computers and up to 3 zune devices.). I'm a little confused as to the critics of the zune hardware and the zune marketplace; both products truly seem, from my perspective, to offer a lot of features not available with the competitors devices and services.

As i've done previously, I'll save the trolls the trouble of calling me a MS fanboy or some other non-sense in response to this post. I am a professional computer systems administrator for a tier 1 ISP and clustered internet software services provider. I work mostly with Solaris, Linux, and freebsd but am a self described Os agnostic. I believe in using the software which provides the best solution for the problem at hand. Currently my only windows machine is a X64 Vista HTPC which works great as a central media repo and access point and also makes MS's own PMP and music library software the natural choice for me.

Re:Competiton is good

[TomHandy]

Right. I didn't mention that since the thrust of the post I was replying to was that Apple was just as evil for wanting to lock people into FairPlay, so I was commenting on Apple in particular. You are right, MS is also going down the DRM-free path. I think my central question still stands though, and I'll be glad to expand it to Microsoft too; how can either of them be seen as still wanting to lock people into DRM?

Re:Competiton is good

[toddestan]

That's a press release on Apple's own website. I suppose you believe everything you read on microsoft.com too?

Re:Competiton is good

[El Gruga]

Shaddup. ya whiner.

Re:Competiton is good

[I'm Don Giovanni]

"My key question is whether they're selling them for less than they cost to make. If so, then it's probably a dumping case waiting to happen."

A dumping case? Who is going to file it? Apple? Please.
Besides, Amazon is the one that discounted their Zunes, not Microsoft. Retailers can sell product for whatever price they want to.

Lastly, both iTunes Music Store and the Zune Marketplace store offer DRM-free music (as well as DRM'ed music), so your accusations of either one trying to lock people in via DRM needs to be put into proper perspective.

Re:Competiton is good

[petermgreen]

how can either of them be seen as still wanting to lock people into DRM?
If you want to use DRM media on the iPod you have to buy it from apple. If you buy DRM media from apple then it is for the most part restricted to iPods (iirc there were a couple of phones that licensed "fairplay" but they had very low storage capacity).

I belive the situation with the zune is similar.

IIRC prior to one of the major labels offering DRM free music to a competitor apple did not offer any DRM free music on the iTms even when the artist and label wanted it. Once one of the major labels started offering DRM free music anywhere apple had to accept it to avoid having an inferior product. However they still charged more for non-drm, charged an upgrade fee to get

Re:Competiton is good

[TomHandy]

I think your chronology might be a bit skewed; Steve Jobs posted an open letter about DRM before any of the major labels started offering DRM-free music. In that letter, Jobs argued that it made sense for everyone to give up DRM, as it wasn't really accomplishing its goal, etc. EMI was the most receptive label to this, and agreed to offer DRM-free music. As I understand it, Apple's charging of a premium for individual DRM-free tracks seemed to be a bit of a concession to labels so they would make more profit per track. Full DRM-free (iTunes Plus) albums are the same price as the DRM versions. I think this is still something that depends on the labels, for the most part. For example, Apple now also offers iTunes Plus DRM-free tracks for a number of indie labels, and those are sold at 99 cents.

Actually, browsing through the iTunes Store, it seems like even the EMI tracks are now available at 99 cents (looking at some Coldplay and Pink Floyd albums), so it seems like they have also relented on the higher cost.

Either way, at this point, the main thing is that things are slowly moving towards the acceptance that DRM-free is the way to go. Microsoft and Apple are both pushing this now, and Amazon is as well with their DRM-free MP3 store.

The main issue at this point is that some labels are still choosing to not offer DRM-free music through the iTunes Store, because they do want to do what they can to make other music stores have success, and the easiest way for them to do this is to with-hold content or at least with-hold DRM-free content; ultimately this comes down to some other labels still wanting to be able to charge more per track, and they know they can't do this as long as the iTunes Store is the only dominant online music store. For the time being they are offering cheaper tracks on things like the Amazon MP3 store, but I haven't heard that Amazon has any specific desire to stick to these lower price points.

In the end, I think that particular tactic may backfire on the labels anyway; once customers continue to get used to these lower prices, that 99 cent cap that Apple has stuck to is going to be seen as the maximum price anyway. Even if the labels tactic of helping the Amazon MP3 store, etc. be successful works, they might not be able to later push for what they want (the ability to bundle singles, charge more for the most popular tracks, etc.).

The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[urcreepyneighbor]

Granddaughter: I want an iPod for Christmas!
Grandmother: Okay, honey!

Later that day, grandmother has a sudden attack of sticker shock at the price of the iPod and asks if there's something "like it" for cheaper. The clerk, with a "someone's going to be disappointed this Christmas" smirk on his face, hands her a heavily discounted Zune. The grandmother, not knowing any better, purchases said Zune.

Come Christmas morning, the granddaughter rushes to the Christmas tree to find the box containing her brand new iPod. Upon ripping off the wrapping paper, she realizes... she got a Zune.

At this point, she has two choices: demand a return for an iPod (usually out the question, since insulting grandmother may cut off any future birthday cash) or she'll feign excitement (a skill nearly all women are born with) and start secretly plotting to kill her grandmother.

Moral of the story: if you're a grandparent and you don't want to die at the hands of your sweet, loving granddaughter... don't buy a Zune!

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[Anonymous Coward]

Not just any Zune..... but a BROWN Zune.

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[nomadic]

she got a Zune.

...which does everything the ipod does anyway, so they all lived happily ever after.

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[fuo]

sounds like my childhood.

i ask for transformers

i get go-bots :(

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[Anonymous Coward]

My dad gave me neon tube transformer. So much better. Yeah, and mom gave me socks.

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[zippthorne]

Only if you've never had an iPod and therefore avoided the iTunes Music Store. The Zune does not, afaik, play apple-drm'd music. If you're replacing an iPod, and you did use the music store, then the Zune is not as useful to you. Though I'm not sure this is actually an argument in favor of purchasing an additional iPod...

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[Joe Jay Bee]

What a nasty world we live in where a kid will go into a sulk because they only got a "wrongly" branded $100+ MP3 player on Christmas morning.

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, I'd be quiet happy if my grandma bought me a Zune instead of ipod for Christmas.

People are mad at Microsoft for having monopoly and charging arm and a leg for their stuff.

Well hello, look at Apple. They have monopoly on mp3 music sales and their ipod makes what, like 800% profit (of the cost to build that thing).

The problem is that people are just too stupid and they watch too much television, thus after watching bazillion of in-your-face Apple advertisements, they would buy a piece of dog shit for $900 if it had Apple logo on it.

No, my grandma is smarter than most of the people. I'll bet you anything that she would rather get something like Sansa or one of the other great players out there that cost way less than your stupid ipod.

Go grandma!

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[jawtheshark]

Are there still people that don't know about QTFairUse? All informed people by now buy only "Plus" songs or stick to CDs. I've got a co-worker that got heavily burned by DRM, and I explained him what to do in order to avoid lock in. The Zune plays AAC, by the way. Just not protected AAC.

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[Opportunist]

Second moral of the story: Don't forget to include the receipt in the gift, so they can return it without embarrassing you or them by informing you that you shouldn't buy stuff you know crap about.

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[Opportunist]

Where have you been the past years? It's not like this is a new phenomenon. It's not been important in your school to have the "right" clothes? The "right" set of pens? Or, if you are younger, the "right" cell and the "right" game console?

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[Joe Jay Bee]

I know. And it doesn't have to be this way - my post was a general observation. But I find it hilarious to see Slashdotters using one of the biggest debasements and tragedies of our time as a method of having a pop at the Zune. It's OK, they say, the kids will strop. Bullshit.

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[LoverOfJoy]

The grandmas are much more likely to get a Nextar for $25 if they're going to get a discounted mp3 player.

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[Anonymous Coward]

Then again, if you're asking over 100 bucks on something, you should really be able to expect that you'll get exactly what you asked for. We're not talking about quibbling over the brand of socks one gets, this is a major purchase that can't be "substituted" easily, especially without warning to the target party.

There's a difference between "You got the Cobra Commander figure instead of the Destro one!" and "You got me running shoes, but I'm a quadriplegic".

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[quacking duck]

Sulking would be an improvement over the jackass-edness seen in recent Christmas ads by West 49.

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[Anonymous Coward]

For less! LESS not 'for cheaper' or 'for cheap' oh you Americans kill me!

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[mattgreen]

And what a nasty site we congregate at where we'd fully support and encourage such a temper tantrum instead of stepping back and seeing it how much it really doesn't matter.

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[frank_adrian314159]

What a nasty world we live in where...

there is a product called a Zune. Squirt. Squirt.

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it really, though? Suppose you put a CD on your wishlist, or a book. Would you think it's unjustified to sulk if you get a different CD or a different book, by a different artist or author who you don't like?

And no, don't say that's not the same, because it is: you wanted a specific item, you got something else that you didn't want (and wouldn't have wanted). Yes, money was still spent on the Zune, and the grandmother in this scenario still thought her grandchild would enjoy it; but a CD or a book costs money, too, so if you get the latest Britney Spears album from your grandmother instead of, say, the latest Nightwish, would you say that's unjustified to be disappointed? After all, your grandmother thought you'd like the Britney Spears CD, and you got it for free. Isn't that all that counts?

The real problem here is that there's two different approaches to gifts: one that says "it's the fact that the gift was *hoped* to appeal that matters" (assuming, of course, it's a gift that was given in hopes it would appeal), and one that says "it's whether the gift *does* appeal that matters".

In an ideal world, every gift you get really would appeal to you. But in the real world, shit happens, and sometimes, you'll get gifts you don't like. So what do you do? Not wanting to hurt your grandmother's feelings after she got you a Zune is understandable and commendable, but I think you're taking the easy way out. Is the grandchild just supposed to hide the fact that they don't like the gift behind a fake smile and a white lie?

What's more, you'd not only berate the grandchild for not putting up a fake smile, you'd berate them for not FEELING the right way about the gift, no matter whether they show it or not - and that's something they can't even control.

So I think you're definitely making it too easy for yourself. The real problem is the difference in expectations; and the real solution would be for the grandmother and the grandchild to be able to talk about it like rational adults. The grandchild should acknowledge that her grandmother wanted to make her happy; the grandmother should acknowledge that she didn't manage to; and the Zune should be returned to the store for a gift certificate which is then used to buy an iPod instead. And maybe next year, the grandmother will be wiser and either stick to the grandchild's wishlist if she's not sure about how specific the wishes are (thus erring on the side of caution) or just give her a gift certificate or some cash which the grandchild can use to get what THEY want.

Problem solved, and without any fake smiles, secretly hurt feelings, white lies and so on.

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[mochan_s]

Another scenario.

She realizes she has an ipod (general term for an hdd with an mp3 decoder and some management softwrare), reads the manual, puts her songs and is happily listening to music all Christmas while Grandma is also happy she is able to give her granddaughter what she wants.

As an added bonus, she grows to be like one of the attractive people in the Zune commercials and not a shadow in a bright background.

Not everyone is a brand name whore.

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[Joe Jay Bee]

My thoughts precisely. But hey, anything to have a go at Microsoft, right?

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[rizole]

Children are unsophisticated, shallow and come without much realistic life experience against which they can make sane judgements about the world. They are immersed in shiny, exciting advertising information and force fed ridiculous expectations about pretty much everything constantly from waking to sleep.

The nastiness doesn't lie in the sulking kid...it's in the mire of shit they are conditioned not to even notice by unscrupulous and venal marketroids and a deeply skewed and distorted media.

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[JimBobJoe]

What a nasty world we live in where a kid will go into a sulk because they only got a "wrongly" branded $100+ MP3 player on Christmas morning.

I see where you're going with that. On the other hand, the world where such a kid lives has a large quantity of service and product differentiation, and is therefore a world of tremendous opportunity.

While it might be hard for anyone who isn't Apple to sell MP3 players, there are still lots of opportunities in a world where, once something is branded as the best, people will flock to it.

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[One Childish N00b]

Welcome to having children. Enjoy your stay.

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[Anonymous Coward]

Spoken like someone who never got GoBots instead of Transformers on Christmas morning. Grandma is still alive, but her hour is coming...

Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot

[mattgreen]

And the funny thing is people get very irritated when you call them out on this sort of behavior; they claim it is a 'conviction.' Yeah, its about as much of a conviction as not eating green beans because you dislike the taste.

I am not a Mathematician

[JamesRose]

But 1 type of zune vs. Ipod classic, Ipod nano, Ipod touch, Ipod Shuffle etc. Yeh, zune outpaces them individually (which is very impressive actually) but come on! The title is wrong, Zune outpaces ipod nano, Zune outpaces Ipod Classic, etc. But zune outpaces Ipod? No

Things change

[Jonboy X]

At the moment, Apple has 7 od the top 8 spots on Amazon's MP3 bestseller list, including their 4 gig Nano at #1. The 2nd-gen 80-gig Zune comes in an #9. However, you'll note that the Yahoo article's a week and half old.

Re:Things change

[eclectic4]

" However, you'll note that the Yahoo article's a week and half old"

As discussed here, and it also mentions that the model that was at #1 was last years model, heavily discounted.

This is a bogus story... on par for /. recently...

Conspiracy Theory

[Anonymous Coward]

The source indicates that the Zune is #1 on Amazon; granted, Amazon is a major retailer, but that does not indicate total sales. Perhaps this is part of a clever strategy by Amazon and Microsoft to take on Apple - see http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/content_display/industry/e3i6efb69eb2243cb842be35f0eab40082d for an article regarding Amazon and Pepsi giving away free music. Putting forth the appearance that Apple is slipping is clever marketing indeed. Manipulating the data? Who knows!

Slash-vertisement

[Kohath]

Was this story written by Microsoft's PR department?

See above comments where this isn't even true.

With quality posts like this, I expect to hear that Slashdot fired Jeff Gerstmann any time now.

Who buys iPods on Amazon?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have the feeling if you took those sold directly through the Apple site into account this would be an entirely different story.

Using "Rate of Growth" is a misleading statistic

[popo]

"Rate of Growth" is one of the most commonly "spun" statistics.

For example: If I sell 1 widget last month, and then I sell 10 widgets this month I can make the claim that I have a 1000% month-over-month growth rate. Not only that, I have a "faster rate of growth" than every other major widget manufacturer/retailer.

Obviously, rate of growth is clearly only a meaningful statistic when presented alongside comparative volumes.

You HAVE to be kidding

[WindBourne]

They could give it away for free to everybody who runs windows and it would not effect their bottom line. In fact, they could give one to everybody (I would guess that they would not give it to google or Linux users). At that point, how many music companies would NOT sell through MS?

Re:You HAVE to be kidding

[b0lt]

Yes, but that wouldn't make any money. It'd also probably be violating anti-trust legislation, since they would be abusing their operating system monopoly to crush Apple.

Re:You HAVE to be kidding

[TeraCo]

No they wouldn't. They'd be abusing the fact they have 'fuckloads of cash', which is slightly different. They don't get any intrinsic benefit from being Microsoft when it comes to this product (that any other company with the same amount of 'spare money' wouldn't get).

Re:You HAVE to be kidding

[mabhatter654]

That is ironic, that all the music companies, particularly NBC/Universal, want to run away from Apple, that runs it's online store with just about the same terms for music labels as any Brick-n-mortar, to Microsoft that is known for eating it's competition.

Steve has done a great job getting people to PAY for music on line, and pushed companies to pull their head out of their asses so he can do that. Apple makes enough money to run iTMS and passes on more profit per song than labels get from CD's... what's not to love? But labels think he has "too much" power.. or rather he's profiting from iPods and they're not. WTF, these label execs are on crack.

Billy is an awesome salesman... great with suits and telling them what they want to hear... like the quote from Universal music head earlier this week, Bill knows how to get these guys under contract by slick talk but nail them on details to kill Bill's competition. It's a classic tactic from M$ to get CEO's to burn their "bridges" with the existing partners before going Microsoft, but these music heads are falling for the spiel even faster than corporate IT heads. What sells more than computers, TV and DVD players... that's Microsoft's next target, with Xbox, Zune, and HD-DVD... Imagine the monopoly power they'll have wen they get a quarter for every TV, Radio, DVD, etc sold by ANYBODY!!! These guys are jumping happily into the trap.

Re:You HAVE to be kidding

[roman_mir]

they could give one to everybody (I would guess that they would not give it to google or Linux users). - out of all the Internet users, how many don't use Google? I bet MS can afford to give away 2 Zunes.

Re:You HAVE to be kidding

[kaizokuace]

If you are gonna pay..er get fucked for vista you might as well get an 8gig zune in the box.

Re:You HAVE to be kidding

[Anonymous Coward]

stop giving them ideas!

Re:You HAVE to be kidding

[Anonymous Coward]

There was a study done about 3 years ago comparing the users of Yahoo, MS search, and google. What was interesting was that Yahoo was the stodgy old timers, the MS users were the low class, low intellect users, and google was the savvy, well-to-do users. MS should have absolutely no problem converting their users to zune. The yahoo users probably will not use an mp3 player (a number of the them are probably on LPs and thinking of converting to CDs). The trick will be for MS to convert the Google users.

Re:You HAVE to be kidding

[tehcyder]

I would guess that they would not give it to google or Linux users

You may not know this, but "google" is in fact a web site, and can therefore be accessed by anyone with what is called an "internet connection". Nowadays, this feature is available on both the Apple Macintosh and Microsoft Windows operating systems, as well as the more traditional Unix-based ones like SCO and Finux.

Yahoo Tech?

[zentec]

Do you know how you can tell if the Zune is for real? It's when you see Wal-Mart running ads with a MILF saying that she didn't know that Wal-Mart sold Zunes and it's all her daughter wanted for Christmas. So much so that she carries it everywhere she goes, even when she brushes her teeth. Until that time, it's still an also-ran.

I don't want to turn this into an Apple/Microsoft flame war (I'll leave that to someone else), but let's call this what it is. *Anything* heavily discounted online is going to sell well. And for those who don't need an Apple product, don't like Apple or simply see the value in a 30 gig MP3 player for $150, this will create buzz and demand.

"Something tells me" that Microsoft is engineering the buzz from behind the curtain while again subsidizing the hardware cost in a desperate attempt at market share. But I'm glad, because maybe, finally, enough Zunes will be in the marketplace for a genuine acid test of the music subscription model.

They're using the X Box sales model for the Zune

[oDDmON oUT]

Unfortunately for them, there is no way to recoup money on the loss leader Zune as there is on the X Box (i.e. games sales and subscription play services).

This isn't the first time though, that Microsoft has gone with a one-size-fits-all strategy.

It won't be the last either.

No way! Get outta town!

[Fear the Clam]

People will buy ghetto versions of desirable objects if they become sufficiently cheap? My Coby CD player and I are shocked, shocked.

Good riddance by M$

[bogaboga]

the Microsoft Zune, having been heavily discounted for the holiday season, 'is currently Amazon's top-selling music player, beating out the new iPod Nano and the 80GB iPod on the 'Bestsellers in Electronics' list.'

My headline says it all. This is good riddance on Microsoft's part. I would probably do the same if I were in Microsoft's shoes. Now, let's wait for those who loath every software giant's move to cry foul. These are folks who think that every Apple product should always win every contest. I for one, will not be surprised if they do cry foul.

Old Saying

[Spazmania]

There's an old salesman's saying:

It takes no particular talent to sell a dollar for fifty cents.

Re:Old Saying

[Anonymous Coward]

Along similar lines: if a foreign company did this, our Government would call it "dumping", and seek negotiations or tariffs; domestically, it's just (expensive) "marketing".

Re:Old Saying

[Threni]

Things were looking so bad for the Zune that Microsoft even considered launching it outside the US, to compete with the iPod...

Re:Old Saying

[lord sibn]

Hey now, that makes sense. All this time, I've been doing it wrong:
1. Sell 50 cents for $1
2. ... (you see where this is going?)

Wishful thinking...

[bidule]

A flashback from the past.

Please come back when there's some statistical significance to the fact. And by that I mean staying in the top 5 for a few days.

This whole story is flamebait. Journalistic integrity vs sensational headlines.

Zune would sell even better...

[Undead Ed]

if it was free! And Microsoft can afford to give it away funded by the proceeds of it's aggressive predatory monopoly. That and Microsoft's massive promotional budget assures lots of Zunes sitting under the tree or in hanging stockings this Christmas. I am just wondering how many will be exchanged come Dec 26th. The NEW Zune is old technology compared to Apples iPod - typical for Microsoft. Ed

In Soviet Russia

[Anonymous Coward]

Zune buys you!!!

the value of an mp3 player

[philmack]

Ipods and Zunes have nearly indistinguishable technical features, both are platform locked, and both have restrictive DRM. The MSRP/fixed prices for any given feature set are the same.
The going rate of a zune 1 has been around $100. The comparable ipod when it turned up occasionally in Apple's refurb store was still around $200. Right now it is available, for $160.
It seems completely reasonable to deduce that there is a large part of the population is not willing to pay $250 for an mp3 player, but is willing to pay $100 for it. And also for how fast the Apple refurb store sell out, there is another portion of the population that wants an ipod, but is willing to wait until they can get at least a modest percent off the cost.
This is just an example of "walking the price curve" and whether Microsoft intended to or not, they found a large market at that price point.
~Phil

Re:the value of an mp3 player

[sarhjinian]

Someone who posts to Slashdot should know better:

• The iPod and iTunes do not force restrictive DRM. I have an iPod full of MP3s, and I can
• copy said MP3s off the iPod very, very easily. They're not tagged, tracked or locked. At all.

There are at least four decent iPod management applications for systems able to run UNIX-a-like software. As long as your hardware and OS can see USB mass storage devices and can run said software, you can freely load non-DRM tracks to and from an iPod.

Most songs available for purchase on Apple's Music store are DRM-encumbered and can only be loaded on an iPod via iTunes on Windows or Macintosh systems. This doesn't mean you can't, oh, buy a CD, rip it, and load it on your iPod. iTunes (unlike, say, Windows Media) does not rights-manage music not bought at the iTMS. What the iPod does have is a slightly obfuscated method of loading songs and the ability to play protected AACs. It's not--by far--a tarpit of DRM like Sony's older ATRAC Walkman or Microsoft's Zune.

It's not a flat-file-system based Ogg player, if that's what you want. It does play patent-restricted formats, but in this way it's no more evil than a SanDisk is.

Re:the value of an mp3 player

[sysrammer]

I imagine they intended to. The one thing that MS typically excels at is marketing.

sys

Re:the value of an mp3 player

[philmack]

1. DRM is restrictive. A file sold with drm and not available otherwise is "forced DRM". ergo, itunes forces restrictive drm, just like zune marketplace.
2. I can have a zune full of mp3's and copy them off of the zune very easily. just like an ipod.
3. If you're willing to use third party software you can copy music to and from a zune on linux. just like an ipod.
4. you can burn a cd from zune marketplace tracks, then rip the cd to mp3s. just like an ipod. thats not the point.
5. My music collection has not been altered at all by windows media player or zune software. not one byte. not one tag.
6. the zune has a slightly obfuscated method of loading songs and the ability to play protected wma's.
This is precisely the point: the only substantive difference between the two players is what the user is willingly being locked into, not how a user can remove DRM or use undocumented features.
~Phil

Re:the value of an mp3 player

[Tony Hoyle]

As long as your hardware and OS can see USB mass storage devices and can run said software, you can freely load non-DRM tracks to and from an iPod.

It's worth noting Apple have now put an end to this practice... the new ipods are not mass storage devices and *require* itunes to read/write from them.

Re:the value of an mp3 player

[toddestan]

Someone who posts to Slashdot should know better:

Where exactly did the poster say anything incorrect?

Re:the value of an mp3 player

[brantondaveperson]

Really? Are you sure about this? The new ipods don't function as USB hard disks? Because that would really really suck.

No

[Have Blue]

No on the first, it's a sign that the Zune is competitive when massively and temporarily discounted but not at its normal pricing.

And no on the second, because the Zune store is the only service that works with the Zune.

Zune sold at a loss??

[destrowolffe]

I don't have a link, so I'll leave that to someone else, but last I checked an MP3 player didn't cost $250 dollars to make. That cost is simply what the market will bear, in large part thanks to HUGE advertising budgets. Apple makes a hefty profit off of the iPod and to think that Microsoft is losing money on a $150 Zune is crazy!

However, even if someone proves me wrong about the costs, Microsoft could give the damn things away and still not hurt their bottom line.

Re:Zune sold at a loss??

[larry bagina]

Apple's sells iPods (and everything else) direct to the consumer and enforces their "suggested" pricing on 3rd party retailers. Typically, the wholesale cost is 60% of retail. I've heard Apple's wholesale pricing is significantly closer to retail pricing. So, Apple would have a larger profit margin than MS (they rely on 3rd party reatailers for all sales, no?). MS may have heavily discounted zunes to retailers in an effort to get them in the store -- and they've certainly thrown money around for fullpage displays in best buy's ads.

This article is false

[pavera]

It states that the brown 30GB zune is on sale for $134, and that it is at the top of the amazon list. However on amazon's site, it is currently 14th on the list of top sellers and is priced at $189.

The best selling zune is the 80GB for $248.99 it is in 9th place, behind almost every ipod model available. Of the top 10 sellers 7 are ipods, and 9 and 10 are 2 of the non-ipod players. that means 7 of the top 8 are ipods.

I don't know how you can call this "real competition" or even "a" competition.

Black Friday.

[Cyno01]

Most retailers will comp competitors ads. We managed to get rid of our stock of brown zunes (all we had left of the gen 1s) last friday because toys R us had them (specifically the turd brown one) advertised for $79. Hanvt sold any other zunes since then that i know of. Plenty of nanos and 80gb classics tho. The microsoft rep was in the other day to check our displays, clean the 360 display or something, i almost laughed in his face. Woman came up and asked if we had any Wiis, i told her no, we got our shipment of 10 for the week earlier that day and they had sold out in less than 2 hours. He overhears my side of the conversation and is like "What sold out? zunes?".

Re:Black Friday.

[Basehart]

I love this kind of real-world stuff (provided it's true of course). It cuts through all the bullshit we get fed every day by PR hacks and those who pump it down the shit pipes.

Wifi

[Easy2RememberNick]

I know Zune music players are ugly, big and made by Microsoft (which irks people) but it has wifi, I thought it would sell well because of that one feature. Sharing music over wifi with other Zune owners didn't happen though (restricted), maybe if Linux could be installed on it sharing over wifi in public may take off.

Re:Wifi

[tigerhawkvok]

You know, I had an iPod for four years, I've used three generations of them, and I bought the new Zune when it came out. It is a better device with a better interface than the iPod, a better form factor in both size-sets, and say what you will about the software (I too lament its lack of power-features), but it at least encodes the data to the file rather than a proprietary database.

And you know what else? Every friend I've showed it to who currently owns an iPod likes it better than their iPod, and either intends to purchase or is purchasing a Zune shortly.

I mean, I know this is /. and asking anyone to judge MSFT fairly for faults or successes is a long shot at best, and Apple and Jobs are worshipped, but seriously. How many of you guys have used a Zune?

It gets even better, check the direct competition

[SmallFurryCreature]

At number 4 is the 80 gb iPod classic, decidely old tech that is only 4 dollars cheaper then the zune but, well also a LOT older.

So the Zune 2.0 can't even beat an iPod that is now several years old and delivers only the most basic music player, no wi-fi, no video no nothing and STILL customers like it better.

That gotta hurt.

Amazon Sales Rank == tea leaves

[bbzzdd]

Amazon Sales Rank in no way represents reality. Just last week many members the HD-DVD rah-rah camp prematurely declared victory for software sales based on Amazon rankings showing HD-DVD titles outselling Blu-Ray by a large margin. In reality Nielsen VideoScan came back to show Blu-Ray taking the week 73:27.

For the entire month of July the PS3 was in the top three of the Video Game category at Amazon, seemingly outselling even the Wii most of the month. The Xbox 360 was barely in the top 20 for the month. When the smoke cleared the Wii outsold the PS3 by over 300% and the 360 beat it by 11k units.

Amazon Sales Rank is useless for comparing product sales.

Breaking News!

[afish40]

Breaking news! The heavily-discounted Zune is currently the #9 best-selling MP3 player on Amazon, behind only the 4GB iPod nano (silver), 8GB iPod nano (black), SanDisk Sansa M240 1GB (silver), 80GB iPod classic (black), 16GB iPod touch, 8GB iPod touch, iPod shuffle (purple) and iPod shuffle (silver)! Yes, Microsoft is indeed a true competitor in the MP3 player market. Or maybe it shouldn't be considered article-worthy to talk about a top-ten chart that fluctuates so wildly. Based on what I'm seeing here, if the friggin' shuffle is outselling the Zune, things aren't looking too good for Microsoft. I'm sure the reality is that they're probably doing perfectly fine, but there's no need to sensationalize things like this.

Re:It gets even better, check the direct competiti

[drcagn]

What are you talking about? Of course the iPod classic can play video. It has been able to since 2005.

Itune Wins: WMP does not have a save position!!!!

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

Itunes still wins because the damn Windows Media Player does not have a save position option for audio files! This makes listening to audio books, podcasts, and radio shows next to impossible.

Please think and review the data before posting...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you look at the Amazon top selling list, you will see that Yes MSFT Zune is up there. However, if you look at the top 10 (or even 25) you will see that the Apple players hold MANY more positions than Zune does. If you take a even distribution of units and assign them to the top 25 in descending order and multiply the sale price per unit by the derived number of units sold, this will show you that by REVENUE Apple is the clear winner.

In case you got lost above, Apple holds more spots on the top 25 list and therefore is making more revenue. Ultimately this means that it will take quite some time and a multiplicity of MSFT offerings to really impact Apple's market share.

my 2 pennies

I own an original Zune

[Henry V .009]

The first iteration of the Zune hardware wasn't as bad as the press said it was. Nobody forced you to buy brown. Note: the computer press is worse than the game review press. They're ignorant and like to jump on bandwagons. See what Udolpho says about them on Windows Fucking Vista.

The old Zune software was bad. In my opinion, it was iTunes-for-Windows level bad. The new Zune software is much nicer than the old Zune software or iTunes. (iTunes is rotten software, too, smearing the desktop with its links every time it updates itself, and trying to get you to install other products like Safari and Quicktime with each security patch.)

The new Zune software is really wonderful. It's one of the best pieces of software I've seen in some time. Microsoft's Allchin has better magic than Steve Jobs, any day. Further the Zune's killer feature is its subscription service, which doesn't get nearly enough play. Do you hear about any of this from the computer press? No, because they suck. See above.

The Zune players themselves are very good and priced quite competitively compared to ipods. The video screens are very nice for watching videos. Unless you are a semi-serious computer user, however, you will have trouble converting your own videos to make them playable. (I recommend the free Encode360 software.) Also, the Zunes are not bright and shiny. They're the sort of device a straight male doesn't mind carrying around.

Re:I own an original Zune

[rapidfiringneurons]

I'd love to know how much Microsuck paid you to call a subscription service a "killer feature." Killer waste of money, maybe.

Re:I own an original Zune

[Henry V .009]

Yeah, because I could be a thief and steal all that music instead. That would save me a lot of money.

Re:I own an original Zune

[One Childish N00b]

They're the sort of device a straight male doesn't mind carrying around.

Wow, insecure much? Seriously, if you think your choice of media player or your ability to appreciate aesthetics makes you 'gay', you must think you're pretty close to that dreaded borderline already, right?

Um, duh?

[zippthorne]

I sincerely doubt that you can buy Zunes through the Apple site. Obviously there, the Zune's numbers will look poor. Similarly at Microsoft's site, Zune sales outstrip iPod sales by a factor of billion to zero.

Re:Um, duh?

[nevali]

Or, indeed, a factor of two to zero, if we want to reflect real-world sales figures.

Sure, cheap price will lure a few people in

[Anonymous Coward]

The cheap price of the Zune may lure a few people in, but those unlucky few will soon be badmouthing the player to everyone that they know. Anyone who has ever tried to use a Microsoft-based media solution will know what I'm talking about.

Microsoft selling at a loss

[Locutus]

I wonder how many billions Microsoft plans to lose on this turkey? Billions lost over the life span of WindowsCE has purchased them a strong hold of the PDA market but is giving them problems in the SmartPhone market with Nokia's Symbian and Linux stalling that effort.

Anyways, it isn't a surprise that Microsoft is dumping billions into this product and suckers are picking it up. It's not like they don't have the cash to dump on this and we all know there are millions of suckers willing to pick up a Microsoft product because it's cheap.

The only thing of interest here is how many billions Microsoft is willing to lose to gain market share against Apple. They've crossed over the $10 billion mark to kill Palm about 4 years ago. But it's a laugh when the press talks about WinCE, PocketPC, Windows Moble, etc being a good product line for Microsoft. So if you're a MSFT investor, Zune will be a massive loser too. IMO.

LoB

Re:Microsoft selling at a loss

[nerdyalien]

I really don't think M$ is selling things at a loss. Neither Apple or any gizmo manufacturer.

Fact of the matter is, they only do the design.. which most of the case.. putting together many available mature technologies together in to a nice shell and call it a new product + testing. Other than that, they don't pay ridiculously high price for the components (of course they buy in large quantities), materials (again they buy in massive numbers) or labour (of course, all are developed in china, where labour is unbelievebly cheap) chargers.

I think I can prove this by very recent act by iPhone. They suddenley dropped the price by whopping $200. Many reverse-engineers (who dismantled the iPhone) claim that iPhone only worth $270 (maybe even less due to mass-quantity componeny buy-outs)

Okay, forget about consumer electronics for a moment. If you take silicon products like Intel Pentium processors, might they have a price tag od 3-digits.. but the actual product cost is $40!

So, it is hard to believe a company losing money over a product, unless they find a bug and make a massive recall like SONY did last year.

Re:Microsoft selling at a loss

[Locutus]

you are leaving out a whole lot of other costs and BTW, I'm talking about Microsoft, not Apple. It's not new that Microsoft is still losing money on Xbox and it's still a distant 3rd place in the total console market. For an example of how Microsoft is willing to lose money on a product to make sure the 'other guy' doesn't succeed, they once paid AT&T a cool $5 billion to use 5 million copies of Windows CE on set top boxes.

As far as the Zune goes, a similar trick can be used, and is likely to be used. They could provide marketing incentives to those who prominently promote and exclusively sell MS Zune. they could also provide the product at a cut rate price so the reseller really has incentive to push the product over all others.

IMO, there is no question Microsoft loses money on most of their products except the big three monopoly products. It's been in the quarterly statements for decades. Things like the mobile platform division losing ~$250 million quarterly was quite common. they've got better at burying the numbers in biannual reorganizations but the massive losses are still there.

LoB

Better options

[delirium of disorder]

If you want to avoid the DRM laden crap pushed by Microsoft and Apple, I recommend buying a Sandisk Sansa and installing rockbox on it. I can play ogg, flac, and mp3 music and even doom on mine.

Re:Better options

[kalidasa]

Funny, all of my iPods (all four of them) can play unDRMed MP3s (and unDRMed AACs, which after all are just MP4 audio) - my 3rd Gen, my 1st Gen Shuffle, my 5th gen, and my iPhone. Where did you find an iPod that couldn't play unDRMed MP3s???

Re:Using "Rate of Growth" is a misleading statisti

[emurphy42]

True, but is it relevant here? The first article doesn't mention it that I can find, the second one has evidently been taken down.

Not what I see

[nroose]

I just went to Amazon, clicked on top Electronics sellers (http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/electronics/ref=sv_etk_ce_av__1/104-1309862-5032737), and the first Zune I see is at 24, with 7 different iPod models above it.

Perhaps MS did some kind of Dianetics-esque fake buying to get on the list temporarily and then had one of their friendly journos do a piece on it.

Re:It gets even better, check the direct competiti

[alanQuatermain]

'iPod classic' is the new name for the HDD-based iPods. It's basically a 6G iPod, and was first released a couple months ago.

-Q

MS finally took my advice!

[tkrotchko]

I said when they came out with their 30G player last year, they needed to sell it for $175 or less. Instead, they priced it roughly the same as the iPod Video, which is a losing deal. Many of the Zune's have been selling for about $100 for the 30G version, at which point you start to consider it.

Now, they need to un-bollix the wifi sharing, add a Mac client, allow Plays-For-Sure subscriptions, and then they'll actually have a competitor.

Zune does not suck

[poppycock]

I have three iPods, and a Zune 30 (with the new firmware). The new Zune does not suck *at all*, and the wireless sync works quite well. The Zune button is not nearly as good as the click-wheel, though. But the iTMS, and the Zune Marketplace are comparable. iTunes still has better podcast support (includes password protected podcasts), but the Zune has a useful Zunepass subsciption service. And honestly, I'm surprised at how I kinda prefer the Zune points system. There's a certain degree of convenience there that I like.

Zune is for real, and anyone who would be disappointed to get one would only be disappointed because it's not what Muffy has.

Re:Zune does not suck

[varistderreindfleisc]

I bought one the other day mostly out of spite towards Apple's general BS and so far am enjoying the heck out of it. Of course I wouldn't have touched it with a ten foot pole if a) it wasn't 99 dollars or b) I hadn't ripped my 14000 songs as mp3s so I could use them with any player. The built in radio sounds tunes in the local stations very well. I don't like the software interface but it is definitely easy enough. I am at the same time frightened and interested in the possibilities of my microsoft identity remaining the same across platforms. I had no idea my XBOX live tag would be my zune username as well. So now people can see that I not only play crappy games but listen to crappy music.

Re:Zune does not suck

[hermia]

I just retired my old 4GB iPod mini for a 30GB Zune and I find I really like it. Bottom line is I bought it on the recommendation of two friends who'd recently bought them and because it was cheap. I find I like the controls better on the Zune. The click wheel on my iPod always pissed me off. I have pretty bad arthritis in my hands and for some reason I could never get that thing to work quite right. Not sure if it was the issues I have with my hands or my particular iPod, but it always seemed to be more trouble than it was worth.

The software installation was a pain but now that I have it set up I find it's quite easy to use. Haven't checked out the marketplace, but I prefer to buy CD's and then rip them anyway. The sync hasn't been a problem, the audio and video playback has been as expected (love the size of the screen), and for the money I'm quite happy with it.

Wow, I'm totally going to get flamed for admitting this, aren't I? I'm not a big fan of MS, but I'm very happy with the player. It works for me.

Re:Zune does not suck

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought one the other day mostly out of spite towards Apple's general BS

Wow, good reason to buy something.

Re:Zune does not suck

[Anonymous Coward]

The new Zune does not suck *at all*, and the wireless sync works quite well.

I see it enables you to "squirt" all over Microsoft at least...

Nothing New

[Trintech]

I think this article from when the first Zune was first released really sums it up.

Its important to remember that there have been over 110 million iPods sold as of September 2007. Yes the new Zune could make a dent but it doesn't have a big enough percentage of the market share to rip all the 3rd party developers away from Apple.

When automakers start giving the option to have a Zune specific music dock in their new factory cars, then I'll say that the Zune has had a profound effect.

Lousy fucking WMP 10.

[Binary Ninja]

Last year on black Friday there were 2GB Memorex MP3 players that were only available at Target. I bought two for my kids. I was jazzed because they show up as flash drives, and it is trivially easy to copy music onto them. (They also had built in rechargable batteries.)

This year on black Friday, there were 4GB Memorex MP3 players that were only available at Target. I bought one, as they've updated the display so that it can play back (low res) MPEG4 video. The case design is the same, although they changed the case color form white to black.

But in the time between, (like most other non-Apple players I've seen) Memorex now requires lousy fucking WMP10. (I've installed WMP10 to use with a Philips player in the past, and it didnt' work well at all.)

So I picked up a third generation 8GB Nano at Costco, and the Memorex player is going back to Target.

The killer feature

[blind biker]

the one that kills any motivation I could have to buy a Zune: not being able to download stuff to it without a proprietary MS application.

Re:Using "Rate of Growth" is a misleading statisti

[noidentity]

For example: If I sell 1 widget last month, and then I sell 10 widgets this month I can make the claim that I have a 1000% month-over-month growth rate. Not only that, I have a "faster rate of growth" than every other major widget manufacturer/retailer.

Even better, if you sold your first widget this month, you can claim such a high growth rate that it can't even be expressed as a finite value!

Re:It gets even better, check the direct competiti

[Threni]

The iPod Classic was only released a few weeks ago. Perhaps you mean the iPod Video?

I think it has something to do with the discount..

[RootWind]

Also notice that the Zune is no longer heavily discounted. So I would guess the Zune may very well have been #1... when it was still on sale.

Spit or swallow?

[Shuntros]

If you're not a MSFT employee after a Christmas bonus I'm a monkey's uncle!

Re:Spit or swallow?

[Henry V .009]

Apple even pays you for those trolls on a Saturday? Whoa.

Hard to beat going brown.

[HycoWhit]

A Digg comment said it best: The brown zune sounds like something you do to someone.

Everyone is talking about grandma giving a Zune to their kids. I've gone the other way--picked up five brown Zunes for under $500 and am giving them to my parents, wife's parents, and one remaining grandparent. Ironic to find this article while in the process of preloading the Zunes, killing a bit of time surfing waiting for the music transfers.

My wife and I both own iPods. Functionally--the Zune and iPod are the exact same. However I do agree with others the iPod wheel is a nicer interface than the Zune. The iPod costs 2.5x to 5x more than a Zune (depending how hard you shop.) I would hope anything that cost that much more would be a little better. Think cars--all cars function the same, yet when you start to spend 2.5x to 5x more on your car--things get a lot plusher...

I bought one...and it is good

[qlayer2]

I was browsing through circuit city's online weekend sales after thanksgiving, and came upon the 30gb version 1 zune for $99. I threw it in my cart, and went to pick it up in store, and they didn't have one, so they gave me version 2 (in black instead of the horrid brown) for the same $99, and threw in a $24 gift card for free to boot, because I bought it in store.

I own a 2gb nano that is great for working out at the gym, but I wanted something bigger to store video on for longer trips. The Zune software works just as well as itunes, and since all of my music and movies are ripped from cd's and dvd's, I have no DRM issues with either player. A 30 gb video/music player, which has a nice screen and good earbuds, built in FM radio, and a standard stereo cable so it can plug into my car stereo just like my ipod could, for less than half the price of an ipod classic, was a good deal, and I took it.

For a guy like me who buys his music and dvd's in actual disk form, the software to load it onto a specific player is going to be the same hassle if it is for the ipod or the zune. I just have it all loaded onto a spare drive, and both of them look into the folders I tell them to, and sync accordingly. Less than $70 (since the gift card went towards some dvd's I was buying at the time anyways) was a great deal, and the online order/in-store pickup system meant I had to get one after they told me I had one, got me an even better deal than most, even though I still would have been willing to pay the $99 for the rev. 1. Getting a nicer color and a true glass screen instead of plastic was just a lucky bonus. Good sound, build quality, and controls, and I'm happy with my purchase.

Re:I bought one...and it is good

[freedom_india]

True.
I buy my music as mp3 from legalsounds or rip audio from FRIENDS tracks to listening. Rarely do i need to use iTunes.
However, i have a Mac and nothing syncs with a Mac like an iPod.
I don't think Zune works with Mac, although i like to have Zune 2.

Zune is sold out

[DingerX]

On that list of media players, the Zune is the only one that is out of stock; it won't be in stock until December 17. Even so, it got #9.

Oh yeah, and the Yahoo article is dated November 19.

Bash all you like, I ain't buying a Zune or an iPod.

Read the Date

[cleck673]

1st off read the date of the article. The fact is that there was a point recently where the "heavily discounted" Zune 30 players were #1 on that Amazon list. I personally prefer the Zune because it's not an iPod. I am someone that has more iPods than most of ipod adoring fans here combined. (maybe not most, but I have several) There is nothing bad to say about the iPod and they are great players as most of you know. Just because Microsoft is making a player now doesn't automaticly make the Zune suck though. The 1st coming of the Zune was just an entry into the market and it wasn't a bad player at all. Sure, it was not an iPod, but it works and sounds great. The biggest problems that the Zune has is a) it's not an iPod and the young people today cherish an iPod like a cultural icon. Sooner or later, Archos, Sandisk, and Microsoft will make the iPod seem like Britney Spears. She's still ok, but I never liked her... ya, know. b) Microsoft is a target in the 1st place. My daughter just decided to turn her sexy green Nano in for a pink Zune. I was concerned for her well being at school and expected her to come home in tears with a kick me sign on her back. (not really, but...) Well, she didn't. She came home and told me that she had friends that were like, "cool, what is that?". Still, iPods are much more popular and the weird commercials from Microsoft aren't doing a great job reeling in mainstream youth. One other little story about choice (and this is to combat the, "I asked for an iPod and my granny got me a Zune" scenarios): I was at circuit city 3 days after launch looking for some accessories for my Zune 80 and getting Spiderman 3 for my son. I was chatting with an employee at the MP3 display. A mid 40's man walks up and asked where the iPods were. They were on the other side of the display we were at. Just then, a cute 15-16 year old blonde girl said, "this is the one I want". The man said, "I thought you wanted an iPod?". She said, I really like this one though. He asked the employee I was talking to how much the "Zoom" was. The employee said, "I am not sure, hold on a sec". I jumped in and said that it was $149 and she'd be better off with the 8gb for only $50 more. He ended up buying one. The long and short of it all is "I" personally prefer the Zune for the same reasons that most prefer the "iPod"... Because it's an iPod. I am the same guy that can afford a BMW, but won't because of the implications that owning one tells others. (sure, some drive them because they are very nice, but a lot do for the status of having one) Discloser: I run a Zune Blog, so my opinions are biased, but I also totally disclose my opinion in my Fanboy Disclaimer (http://tinyurl.com/2wtf34) Sorry I am so long winded. :)

Leaving aside the usual Apple vs MS stuff...

[rueger]

Sure iPods are lovely, but for a lot of people the price is just too much to justify. I'm one of them, still rolling along with three year old MPIO player That's been dropped a hundred times, has a lousy interface, 256 meg capacity, but just keeps on doing what I want - it plays tunes while I run.

I'd like to update the player, but price does still matter. If a Zune is half the price of an iPod that's what I'd likely buy, not because it's perfect in every way, but because it's certainly good enough for my needs. And likely way better than what I use now.

Microsoft may be hitting a market that isn't going to buy an iPod - the people who have bought off-market MP3 players and are now ready for an upgrade but have to pay things like mortgages and phone bills so can't really spend iPod prices.

Re:Leaving aside the usual Apple vs MS stuff...

[Dunbal]

but just keeps on doing what I want - it plays tunes while I run.

      Who are you running from? Oh wait. Hey hang on a minute. Nerds do NOT exercise. Get out of here, nerd card revoked.

Re:Leaving aside the usual Apple vs MS stuff...

[rueger]

Nerds do NOT exercise. Get out of here, nerd card revoked.

What's worse, it was my girlfriend that started me running!

Re:Leaving aside the usual Apple vs MS stuff...

[R3d M3rcury]

but just keeps on doing what I want - it plays tunes while I run. I wouldn't recommend a hard-drive based player then. Lots of people bought the original hard-drive based iPods and used them while running. They ended up with head crashes, etc.

Stick with the flash based models.

No Napster

[Schnapple]

And will this spell more success for Windows-media based music subscription services like Napster?

No. Because Napster relies on PlaysForSure, and the Zune does not support PlaysForSure, both because some of the Zune's features are incompatible with PlaysForSure licensing and also because Microsoft wants to have its own iTunes Music Store (the Zune Marketplace). They saw that Apple's model of owning-all-the-pieces worked well for them and so Microsoft is now emulating that. This is why the Zune will probably never work with any other services.

no one buys their iPods from Amazon

[2ms]

These stats have little meaning for one giant (I would think obvious) reason -- people don't buy their iPods from Amazon. I bet 90% of iPods are sold at either apple.com or Apple stores. Zunes are sold 3rd party.

Re:no one buys their iPods from Amazon

[ratbert6]

I'll take that bet. I've never seen an Apple store though I believe they exist. As for online sales, most people I know are still leary of online purchasing and for pretty good reasons.

Walmart on the other hand is an authorized Apple reseller or whatever and is EVERYWHERE. It's hard to avoid the iPod display at my local walmart if you go anywhere near the electronics dept.

So 90% iPod sales at the apple.com and the apple store? I doubt it... I'd bet Apple direct sales are less than 50%,

Disclaimer: I have no numbers to back any of this up. It's just my opinion.

Top Need-to-Sell List

[RickRussellTX]

Hate to burst anyone's bubble, but the "Top Selling" list is nothing more than an advertising mechanism. I've seen stuff on those lists that I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot clown pole. They are clearly paying for placement, or being placed there because Amazon can't get rid of them.

Aside from that, any measure of iPod sales that *doesn't include the Apple store* is a waste of time.

Radio Shack

[fredz1]

They're selling Zunes as fast as they can get them. I was buying some CDs the day after Thanksgiving at my local RadioShack and while I was there, they got seven calls about the Zunes... and I was only there for about five minutes. This is in a small college town in VA... and all the college kids were away on break!

A lack of imagination..

[msimm]

Unfortunately for them, there is no way to recoup money on the loss leader Zune as there is on the X Box (i.e. games sales and subscription play services). The recoup part would come after they've established some kind of market share (or ideally lead) and can adjust the production costs or device price appropriately.

Re:A lack of imagination..

[benwaggoner]

The Zune has an optional subscription service - flat rate "all you can eat" music downloads for up to three PCs and three devices. It'll stream to the Xbox as well.

CANADA!

[gh0stee]

They need to sell it in Canada already, as much as I dislike MS, I hate Apple even more. Yes I will let my hatred for Apple allow me to arguable buy an inferior product.

Now it's time to start hardhacking

[Opportunist]

It's likely that the parts inside cost more when bought separately. So maybe this could be a source of dirt cheap high tech parts.

Odds are someone already found some use for the components. I mean, why else would someone buy one?

Does Zune help msft with vendor-lock?

[walterbyrd]

Easy to see how OOXML will help msft with msft's vendor-lock scam. I'm not so sure about the zune.

Unless msft can take over the market, then pull a format switch, and maybe mix in some DRM; I can't see the zune helping msft that much. Msft did do that with msie, so I guess it's possible.

Maybe it's a PR thing? Msft can be seen as weak in anything.

Doubt it

[Opportunist]

The MS PR dept is probably better staffed than a lot of their other departments (probably excluding legal and ackquisition).

It's no secret that putting a story onto /. is like putting it out in the rain and offering everyone a good shot at it, in full public display. This is not TV. People can (and do) point out flaws and comment on it.

I mean, read a comment or two and tell me that this can even remotely be called "good press" for MS.

What list are you looking at?

[mattinasi]

I just checked Amazon - every iPod model except the 160 ranks higher than the Zune, which is at #16. The Zen adn Sansa also rank higher than the Zune. TFA looks like BS to me. Maybe Zune is OK, but I think the world still prefers iPod. MS keeps planting reviews and pseudo-mavens in hopes of building hype, but everyone I know laughs at the Zune.

About time...

[Maury Markowitz]

> Is this a sign that a true competitor, from Microsoft no less,
> has finally broken into the Apple-dominated MP3 player market?

Yes, of course. It was only a matter of time. There are some great players out there now. If there's anything that's interesting in this story, it's how long it took for this to happen. But it was going to happen.

> And will this spell more success for Windows-media based
> music subscription services like Napster?"

No. Napster uses PlaysForSure, Zune doesn't. Stick a fork in it.

Maury

Microsoft's long-term strategy

[Tablizer]

One approach MS has used effectively is to subsidize a new technology until it gets it right about 7 years later. It did this with Windows. Windows was a dog until version 3.1 (at which point it became a semi-dog). X-Boxes were being heavily subsidized although I don't know if they still are. MS has deep pockets and knows how to use them.

Woot.com has these all the time

[greatgreygreengreasy]

Considering you can get the refurb brown Zune on Woot for like $85 when it shows up, I'd have thought they'd be sold out already.... :P

Excellent research!

[Simon Brooke]

You'll get banned from Slashdot for doing things like that, you know. This site is for prejudice and uninformed drivel only; Uncovering the real scam is bad form.

It amused me particularly because I asked someone only today why JVC sell over 200 different current models of camcorders in the UK, and was told that it was because of the scam shops do which says 'if you can find one of these cheaper anywhere else we'll refund the difference...' - apparently each major reseller gets one model which only they sell, even though it's practically identical to all the other models which are exclusive to each of the other major retailers. This scam of Microsoft's seems to me to be a sort of variant of the same gag.

Caveat emptor.

Re:Excellent research!

[Bender Unit 22]

The same trick are done on washing machines etc, in Scandinavia. They all have slightly different product numbers.
I discovered it because I was looking for a new one and was googleling for some info on a AEG machine, which turned up very little.

Re:Excellent research!

[bennomatic]

The same thing is done in the US on mattresses. You'll never find the same Sealy mattress at Macys as you will at Sears. For instance, using made-up names, at Macys, it'll be called the regal and it'll have a crown print on it, and at Sears, it'll be called the monarch, and it'll have a floral print on it. Inside, the descriptions are the same, but because the model names are different, you can't do the comparison shopping with any certainty that you're comparing apples to apples.

I hate that stuff.

Re:Excellent research!

[Bender Unit 22]

and this is flamebait how?

Anti-dumping laws?

[ozbird]

At which point does "heavily discounted" Zunes become illegally dumped Zunes?

iPod is all I'll buy now.

[MikeFM]

Having tried many MP3 players, starting from an original Rio, I don't think I'd buy anything but an iPod now. I have a couple of them and they are easier to use and live far longer than any other brand of MP3 player I've owned. The Nano's are especially good about taking abuse. I haul mine around on trips, to work, to exercise, etc and they just keep on working without issue whereas other brands I owned would easily be damaged under the same conditions. Even given the major price difference between a cheapy brand and an iPod I'll still stick to the iPod in the future.

The Zune looks like everything Microsoft - ugly, clumsy, and feature bloat. I'll stick to the iPod. I'm not sure I like the new Nano's though as they're getting bulkier. Maybe they'll make something between the Shuffle and the Nano. A Shuffle with a wireless Nano-like remote would be really good.

Not all gift buyers know what the recipient wants

[Killer Eye]

I'd bet money that many kids getting a Zune for Christmas will think "well damn, why couldn't it have been an iPod?". Happens all the time...kids want one thing, parents buy what they can actually afford that comes close.

Although holiday sales give you a sign of how much revenue a company is pulling in, this is the *least* representative time in terms of what product is actually *desired*. Who's doing the buying? Not the people using the stuff!

Come back in January, see how many Zunes are returned. Or hell, look at sales in the middle of March or some other random time. Either of those would be more accurate indicators of whether or not the Zune is really hurting the iPod market.

If the Zune ran Linux

[EEPROMS]

I would buy one in the blink of an eye, a cheap 80GB PMP with WiFi mixed with Linux would be a dream come true for me. Right now I have a Apple 5G iPOD and Im starting to hate the thing because you start to realise how retarded it is (try deleting a song for starters without a PC). Looks like I will be buying the far smarter and more functional Nokia N810 though this Xmas.

Zune Marketplace also has non-DRM'ed MP3

[benwaggoner]

...and for content available without a DRM license, Zune Marketplace makes it available for purchase as 256 Kbps MP3.

Although my preference is for the flat-rate subscription service, since I can listen to all the music I want on multiple PCs and devices for a monthly fee, and don't have to worry about buying music I decide I don't like.

Re:Zune Marketplace also has non-DRM'ed MP3

[Basehart]

My friends and I argued the pros and cons of subscription vs purchase around the campfire on a recent camping trip to Mount Rainier and it went nowhere. Those of us with iPods were very happy with buying music and owning it, and those of us with Rio and other players were very happy with Real's subscription based Rhapsody service. What was interesting was that none of us knew anybody with a Zune or had used a service directly managed by Microsoft.

Re:Zune Marketplace also has non-DRM'ed MP3

[benwaggoner]

None of you has ever used Hotmail :)?

If you like Rhapsody, you'll like ZunePass as well. Same basic concept, but I like the GUI better.

Or keep on using existig MP3 libraries, or buy music. Zune supports all these models.

New controller since Zune 30

[benwaggoner]

Also, note that the Zune 4/8/80 has the new touch-sensitive controller for velocity-sensitive scrolling. Quite an improvement over the Zune 30 one which just clicked.

If You Give It Away...

[Nom du Keyboard]

If you give it away,
they will come.

Re:If You Give It Away...

[Fear the Clam]

they will come.

Even if they have to close their eyes and pretend it's an iPod to do so.

2008 Chevrolet Pendejo?

[Estanislao Mart�nez]

For instance, you are told that the 2008 Chevrolet Pendejo is the cheapest, best-performing, and bestselling SUV "in it's class."

Where can I buy one of those? I googled for it and I couldn't find it! I guess I must have an IQ in the same range as pubic hair does...

Not entirely accurate eitherhh

[WindBourne]

Apple is selling SONGs. The labels want to sell CDs/LPs. The reason is that they currently get 1-2/song, with only 1-2 songs/record being a hit (the others just do not sell). To make things worse, Apple is pushing the artists to be their own label (publish through them). The labels HATE apple, but do not have a choice. The problem is that everybody that MS has partnered with has come to regret it (unless they are bought out OR are tiny partners). The labels would be eaten alive by MS. Consider how MS treats Nintendo and Sony. They WERE partners with MS. Likewise, IBM, HP, etc. So, this really is a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. The reality is, that if these labels had a brain, they would spend the money on expanding beyond music (e-books?) OR they would try to own the units themselves. Imagine if the the top 4 labels produced their own unit for doing music AND books. They would could the market in a very short time (currently, they do not).

Re:Not entirely accurate eitherhh

[ravenshrike]

The publishing world, with a few exceptions, is just as dog eat dog as the music world, if not more so. The music companies would have shit kicked out of them if they tried to enter that arena.

more of a sign that the "bestseller list" is wrong

[Lazy Jones]

considering how bad the zune is doing in bestseller / top-10 lists elsewhere, I would consider this a microsoft ad campaign. sorry amazon, but I'm not convinced (to quote Joschka Fischer).

Stupid Statistics

[xkr]

Everybody knows the place to buy an iPod is in an Apple Store, or Apple's web site. Citing sales of one dealer, Amazon, is like saying Jaguar outsells Fords, because a Jaguar dealer said so.

When it comes to MS, antitrust is all encompasing

[ClosedSource]

It's not illegal for a monopoly to fund a new product category by using the profits of their monopoly market. It would only be illegal if there was some technological tie-in between the products that made competing products in the new market be at a disadvantage.

Reading Slasdot, you could get the impression that from now on everything MS does violates antitrust laws. As a practical matter this chapter of MS history is about closed and in the future the argument that "it's different because MS is a monopoly" is going to be defunct.

Re your offtopic reqeust

[Anonymous Coward]

The combination of Firefox, Adblock Plus and Noscript work for me as far as the advertising on /. is concerned. I don't see any ads, unless I choose to display them. Which I don't.

old, no-longer-true news

[jpellino]

and it wasn't that 'true' two weeks ago when the story he lifted this from came out.

at that point a zune was outselling any certain model/capacity of ipod, zunes were but not outselling ipods.

it's not even remotely true on the current list.

corrected attribution

[jpellino]

sorry - should read "she".

the

[jpellino]

that's the spread in the top 20 mp3 players at amazon this hour.

wake me when they can even catch sandisk.

PAID TROLL ALERT

[El Gruga]

If you arent a M$ employee/astroturfer, I am King Kong. You managed to mention every single part of the 'zune ecosystem' in your post. 'The wireless system works quite well. What the HELL does that mean? 'quite well'? But it doesnt actually CONNECT to anything useful, does it? 'useful zunepass subscription'. Only if you want a subscription - and no-one actually in the real world does.

Re:PAID TROLL ALERT

[hermia]

What?!? They're features I look for so I commented on them. I work for a small company that does auto show and trade show exhibits and we're an IBM shop, NOT a MS shop. I don't know why I even try to comment here. You're all a bunch of assholes.

Re:not roughlydrafted propaganda

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason problem is that no one is going to take you or this site seriously. I highly doubt the iphone is actually the number one gift idea. If it is, and you can prove this through survey or field data kindly post the stats (SPSS would be nice...but any format is acceptable). If not, kindly shut the hell up. Better yet, why not take your iPhone and stick it where the sun don't shine.

who cares, nothing to see here, move along

[duckbillplatypus]

mine is bigger than yours.

I don't believe it at all.

[ripragged]

The Zune looks like a 1965 Artists concept of a 1985 portable radio - in Uzbekistan. Of course, looking like a festered, crusty, oozing zit wouldn't hurt it (might even be a fashion statement) if it were more functional and had more useful features than the competition. It isn't and doesn't. It may someday be the leading not-an-iPod. There's a distinction. Only doctored statistics with data editing after the fact will ever show Zune leading iPod in anything except possibly dust-collection on blister packs, and number and size of discounts.

Brown Zune is selling like hotcakes

[I'm Don Giovanni]

The "chocolate brown" Zune (as engadget calls it; I know most iPod fanboys call the "turd/shit" brown Zune) has been selling extremely well lately. It was on sale at Amazon during Thanksgiving week and the preceding week, for $150, and was the #1 mp3 player during that time. I'd guess that was due to the low price and the Zune 2.0 software update. Amazon then raised the price to $170 and it remained #1 and sold out. Amazon then began getting its brown Zunes from a new retailer, and charging $190, and it again sold out. Now Amazon is getting their brown zunes from PC Universe, and is selling them for $207 each, and it's still selling like hotcakes. As I write this, there is only "one left in stock", and it's ranked #1 in the "mp3 players/Portable Digital Media Players" and "MP3 Players/Hard Drive-Based" categories. So the price keeps going up, but it keeps right on selling.

Incidentally, I placed an order for a brown Zune at $170, and three days later was notified that my order had been canceled due to running out of Zunes at that price level. :(

Good for Microsoft

[IHateEverybody]

Now let's see if they can get their new Zune to sell half as well without selling it at half the price of a comparable of iPod. That would actually be something to brag about.

Re:Using "Rate of Growth" is a misleading statisti

[popo]

"Sales Outpacing" = rate of growth

Re:No [Expletive] (!!)

[GeffDE]

The Zune does take spots 1, 2, and 4. However, the most recent generation of iPods is conspicuously absent...the iPod in space three is the previous generation. Where is the iPod Classic? So the Zune is getting spots 1, 2, and 4 on that specific page because there is a lack of current generation iPods. The same is true of the PDMP bestseller list: the iPods listed are the previous generation. If you notice on the first screen you get to navigating from Amazon's homepage to the MP3 & Media Players, the iPods are their own category. The conspicuous lack of any current generation iPods showing up in any of the 3 subcategories of MP3 (flash-based, hard drive-based and PDMPs) may be because Amazon has listed them as iPods, and not as flash-based etc.

Also, how many people do you think get their iPods from Apple vs. Amazon? Does Microsoft even sell the Zune directly (answer: no)? So regarding on the sales from Amazon is kinda ludicrous...

Regardless of Microsoft's involvement of it, anyone using these data to claim that the Zune is outpacing the iPod sales has had their reality cable become unplugged...

Re:No [Expletive] (!!)

[I'm Don Giovanni]

Sorry, but it ain't just Amazon.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/zune/pricegrabber-and-ebay-zune-second+most-bought-black-friday-product-326648.php

"PriceGrabber and eBay: Zune Second-Most Bought Black Friday Product

The little portable media player that could: According to PriceGrabber, Shopping.com and eBay, the fattie Zunes (30 and 80) were the second-most bought product online during Black Friday, right behind the Wii. The snag in the numbers is that it doesn't include individual retailers like Amazon or Cyber Monday sales, but the chocolate Zune 30 does remain tops in Amazon's portables section, so it might just pull through in the final count. [Wired] "

You actually cited references?

[mstahl]

Thanks. You just broke Slashdot.

Re:No [Expletive] (!!)

[GeffDE]

And another snag in the numbers is that it doesn't include individual retailers...like Apple. That's important because I will bet that the majority of iPods sold are sold through Apple. For that matter, how many Zunes were sold from PriceGrabber, or Shopping.com?

And for eBay...great, so a lot of people don't want their Zune anymore and are selling it...that's a real winner. A lot of these news stories are sensationalized and meant to evoke an "OMG@@!@!11!" response even though on a logical level they are full of holes.

Re:When it comes to MS, antitrust is all encompasi

[cloakable]

So is the Zune supported by Microsoft on non-Windows operating systems?

If not, what OS does Microsoft reccomend you use to get music onto the Zune?

There's your tie-in to a monopoly product.

As I've been saying

[Anonymous Coward]

Ipods are just too expense to be anything but a gadget toy. It's just not practical to spent 250 bucks on a rather low quailty music player simply because it's portable.

The model of carrying all your music with you never really made all that much sense anyway, but paying a whole lot of money to store you music collection on an unerliable medium AND then being forced into annoying software interfaces AND paying a whole bunch of money.

If you really feel you need to access days of music on your portable player at all times I guess the premium is worth it, but otherwise... why pay that much.

Solid state mp3 players will help a lot if they stay reliable vs the limited life of hdd storage and the inability to lower costs beyond a point. Solid state's non-moving design will make it cheaper in the long run AND THEN portable mp3 player will be in the 50 dollar range where portable music players are supposed to be.

As far as watching moves on your iPod... get smart and buy a portable DVD player or laptop if you want to actually watch something comfortably. With a portable DVD player you don't have to spend you life converting movies from one format to another. You can have one collection and OHH the practical technology of a DVD case. Get a portable with divx and you'll have more portable storage capacity with any Ipod pretty quickly. I might not fit in your back pocket, but when you realize watching DVD's on your iPod sucks compared to watching them on your friends DVD player it makes sense to use a mobile media that's highly standard not one that merely highly portable and inferior in quality.

So, a Discman that plays mp3 CDs or mp3 DVDs for 30 bucks is a smartet gadget and when it breaks or gets stolen it doesn't matter as much. Plus it can withstand cold temps without a problem and will easily outlast most iPods.. since they use hdds. So, until the portable music player is more reliable or cheaper or both, they are just trendy gadgets really.

The smart money is on putting your music on MP3 cd's or DVD's and making sure your stereo equipment can just natively play MP3 so your low quality Ipod built in EQ and all that doesn't become a pre-amp of crap and you wind up investing in idiot ... ipod stereos and such in which case your ipod is still a low quality pre-amp compared to sterea recievier.

If you just love gadgets and blowing money these things are great, but I save my money for a nice digital video/camera thing which lets you record YOUR life instead of porting around a whole bunch of other peoples thoughts and lives with a proud sense of gadgetry.

Plus Apple's support is slooow and iPods break a lot. My sony mp3 CD player gets stepped on, soda spilled on and left in the freezing and searing temps all the time and plays fine and cost less than 50 bucks.

It makes no sense to buy a less reliable media player just because it's a tiny but smaller when it's 3-5 times more expensive and is harder and more expensive to meld in with your car and home stereo.

Think standardization.. not proprietary. MP3 CDs are still the best portable standardized media to carry music. For most trips one CD is enough for long trips any small CD case can hold days of music and it works a lot more places, not just your iPod and computer.

Now if it was cheaper or a more reliable medium than hdd's the mp3 player would move into the realm of a practical home audio device instead of a trendy way to simpliy and degrade the quailty and overall portability of your music. Most people will be forced to buy some overpriced cable and run their iPod directly into their stereo or even worse through a tuner in which case your 10 dollar iPod pre-amp (since the hdd represent most of the cost) overrides the stereo. Even digital devices need good pre-amps, though we are only playing mp3z. I find the iPod EQ and overall audio quality to be lacking compared to even a one piece stereo. So, routing all your music out the iPod and into your car stereo which is likely a superior

Shuffle is a better comparison

[cloakable]

Because no screen is better than little screen ;)

3 1/2 stars vw 4 1/2

[Rob Y.]

And while we're at it, note that the Zunes recieved customer ratings of 3 1/2 stars vs 4 1/2 for the iPods. Sounds a bit fishy.

Jeees Mom!

[johkir]

I said iPod. I wanted an iPod for christmas! What am I supposed to do with this?

hasn't jumped the shark!

[SethJohnson]

Wal*Mart has tv ads that only mention the iPod. (That made me wonder if they've jumped the shark.)

No way has WalMart jumped the shark. It's as hip as it's always been. As proof, they're the exclusive outlet for the new album by the Eagles.

Seth

Um. That's the nature of humanity...

[Colin Smith]

What a nasty world we live in where a kid will go into a sulk because they only got a "wrongly" branded $100+ MP3 player on Christmas morning. Didn't you know? Why do you think women go for Ferraris, Mercedes etc etc. It's because Honda are "wrongly branded". Despite the statistical evidence which shows the level of quality is higher.

It's Painfullt Obvious...

[His Shadow]

That Amazon's rankings are useless for the purpose determining sales leaders, as it's quite easy to manufacture a "top seller" merely by narrowing the field. Look for the actual sales numbers, which Apple readily provides at the end of every quarter, as opposed the obfuscation of the Zune sales since it's inception. If you really think the Zune is going to matter in light of the 30 million iPods that are going to go out the door this holiday season, well, that's cute.

It's all about the weakest link

[hey!]

It's not exactly valid to say that Zune sales are outpacing iPod sales based on this one data point, because the Zune is only outpacing sales for a single model of iPod, the 4GB Nano.

So far as I can see, you have the following choice of iPods:

Touch 16GB $399
Touch 8GB $299
Classic 160GB $349
Classic 80G $249
Nano 8GB $299
Nano 4gb $149 <-- this version is being outsold by the 80GB Zune at the same price on Amazon, apparently
Shuffle $79

This doesn't mean that the Zune is outpacing iPods as a whole, either in units or revenue. It also doesn't mean that Zune is reaching a significant installed base relative to iPod.

The Apple line-up is a great one, but the Nano 4GB is the weakest link. It has video capabilities, but not quite enough memory to make using those capabilities very useful. It's almost designed to raise the question, "Wouldn't you like to spend the $40 more and really have useful video playback?" Of course, this is an opportunity for Microsoft to pose an alternative question, "Wouldn't you like to have useful video playback at the same price?"

It was a well done, a skillful marketing move. But is this the beginning of the end? I doubt it. They've just scratched one part of the mighty iPod juggernaut; but that's a long way from cutting it down to size.

No, really, f'reals

[malevolentjelly]

Yeah, for being so pro-open source, slashdot sure is pretty gay for apple. I have a Zune as well, and I love it. It's sturdier and overall just smoother and sweeter than the ipod. The new client is nice, too. It came to a rough start, for sure, but I was thrilled when it went to its 2.x firmware. I'm certainly not going back to the ipod. I'll go with Microsoft's proprietary platform instead of Apple's. How is that any different when you're a linux geek?!

I'm sorry slashdot, but the Zune is just awesome. Deal with it.

I love my Zune, I liked me iPod...so who cares?

[lilfields]

I don't see why this matters, I have owned a few iPods and I just bought an 80GB Zune and I love it. Has Microsoft beat Apple in the mp3 market? Personally I think the hardware and firmware on the Zune far exceeds the iPod, however, the Zune software is no where near iTunes (the music store itself on the other hand I find to be better), and I really don't like iTunes. Microsoft should really just plug the Zune in with WMP11 and it would be a competitor all around. Microsoft is just using the 30GB as a way to get in, knowing full well that when you upgrade your firmware you'll have a similar experience that the 80GB Zune buyers are having, minus a touch pad and squircle. Microsoft will and is a serious competitor with the Apple mp3 player "monopoly;" But I don't think the numbers will really start showing that until the Zune is well into it's 4th generation. This generation is fantastic, people will still buy iPods like mad, but maybe the Zune will eventually get a similar look. People say that Apple has a monopoly on the market, but I see people every day call a Sandisk or iRiver an iPod...I don't know if that's what Apple is wanting, but it's happening, and I would say it's working against Apple. Anyhow, I look forward to what the Zune's firmware updates will bring, something that you never anticipate with Apple. If anything the Zune will make Apple review their dominance and make a better product, personally I think Microsoft has the best HDD player on the market right now, but that doesn't mean Apple can't have the best next generation or visa versa. In the end, we are the winners.

Re:story is not bull

[leonbev]

A few weeks ago, there were several sites where you could get a 30 GB brown Zune for under $100. I ended up getting mine from woot.com for $85 shipped, but amazon.com and buy.com had similar Zune blowout sales on their web sites.

I like iPod's as much as the next guy, but good luck finding a comparable 30 GB 5.5G iPod Video for anywhere near that price.

sorry hit submit too early

[petermgreen]

rid of the DRM on your existing music and did not allow you to upgrade music obtained through iTunes promotions (except by re-buying it at full price).

Obvious problem

[sjames]

There's really no mystery here, the sales stats are not broken down appropriately to look at popularity. Apple offers many different models in several colors at different pricepoints. Since these stats are ranked by SKU, it's easy to get confused.

If brand A comes in 1 model only and sold 91 units while brand B has 20 different SKUs and sold 90 of each, the brand A comes out on top of the list, but brand B devices are actually outselling brand A by nearly 20:1.

If you want a brand B right now, but they're out of your favorite color, will you buy a different color brand B or a brand A that's also not your favorite color (assuming you don't just wait).

You've got the illegal tie-in concept backwards

[ClosedSource]

The monopoly product is supposed to promote the new product, not the other way around. So, if MS made it impossible to run iTunes on Windows, that could be considered an illegal tie-in to promote the Zune.

Then humanity is fucked up.

[mattgreen]

If I have kids, I will break them of their materialistic instincts as soon I possibly can. They will learn to value things that actually matter instead of being force-fed ridiculously shallow value systems that are built on advertising dollars.

scientology trick?

[peter303]

Scientologists used to buy and resell massive quantities of Ron Hubbard's books to move him into the best-seller lists.