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Courtney Love Does the Math

Courtney Love does the math ...The record is a big hit and sells a million copies.

So, this band releases two singles and makes two videos. The two videos cost a million dollars to make and 50 percent of the video production costs are recouped out of the band's royalties.

The band gets $200,000 in tour support, which is 100 percent recoupable.

The record company spends $300,000 on independent radio promotion. You have to pay independent promotion to get your song on the radio; independent promotion is a system where the record companies use middlemen so they can pretend not to know that radio stations -- the unified broadcast system -- are getting paid to play their records.

All of those independent promotion costs are charged to the band. ...the band may as well be working at a 7-Eleven.

Worst of all, after all this, the band owns none of its work ... they can pay the mortgage forever but they'll never own the house. Like I said: Sharecropping. Our media says, "Boo hoo, poor pop stars, they had a nice ride. Fuck them for speaking up"; but I say this dialogue is imperative. And cynical media people, who are more fascinated with celebrity than most celebrities, need to reacquaint themselves with their value systems.

When you look at the legal line on a CD, it says copyright 1976 Atlantic Records or copyright 1996 RCA Records. When you look at a book, though, it'll say something like copyright 1999 Susan Faludi, or David Foster Wallace. Authors own their books and license them to publishers. When the contract runs out, writers gets their books back. But record companies own our copyrights forever.

And I think there's another reason for the falling sales that isn't cited nearly often enough: the rise of the DVD. According to this article, "3.8 million DVD players were sold last year, double that of the previous 12 months. DVD sales reached 80 million last year, representing a 111 percent increase over 2001. Twenty million DVDs and 1.2 million DVD players were sold in December 2002 alone."

I think it's fairly certain that at least a small percentage (and, far more likely, a considerable percentage) of the money currently being spent on DVDs and DVD players would have gone towards CDs in years past, and that this is one of the main reasons for declining music sales, along with the other factors that the article mentions.

As for the accusations from TheDeacon: OK, the article was painfully sensationalistic. But there's no libel here. Yeah, they paint a picture of him and his life, he doesn't like. Yeah, they put stuff in the article about his financial situation he wanted to keep private. But there's no real misinformation. Just interpretations TheDeacon doesn't like.

Get real, dude. Nobody sees a person as they see themselves. And no competent journalist will let the subject of an interview have editorial input. If you want your life to be private, be more careful who you talk to.

Why don't you read this article and then talk about how much you love the RIAA?

"Good one, isolated cases without proof."

You want proof? You can't handle the proof!

Far from them being an advocate of free trade other than in speeches, this is only one example of increasing protectionism in the current Bush Administration. Taking the largest single trading partner to the US as an example, a wide range of recent tariffs and duties counter to the NAFTA and GATT agreements has done real harm the Canadian economy. Some economists estimate that the cost of such trade policies costs Canada approximately 1% of annual Canadian economic growth (2002 at 3.4%) The only answer, since this protectionsim seems only to be increasing despite numerous WTO rulings against them, would seem to be long-term diversification of export customers for US trade partners such as Canada, the EU, Australia, Japan & China, resulting in less dependance on access to US markets.

Back in the day, being asked to give a couple bucks to King George III for some tea caused quite an outrage. First there were tea boycotts. Then some guys dressed up like Mohawk Indians, boarded three ships and threw their tea into the harbor. Later guns started firing. Lots of people died. A new country was born. And we're all (those of us in the US) very proud of all this.

All because of tea.

Now money that is spent on the media used to promote free communication should be taxed? Certain senators want to destroy people's computers? The US attorney general wants to circumvent the right to a fair trial? Blowing up Palistinian families, children and all, with US missles is "defense", but the impoverished occupied Palistinian nation's response is "terrorism"? Launching thousands and thousands of sorties, killing tens of thousands of unwilling soldiers to prevent "mass destruction" by weapons that cannot be found is not ironic? Our economy is a shambles. The rich are laughing. And our commander-in-chief wants to appoint this penis to the bench!

Osama bin Laden is free today. US citizens are not. And we would like the rest of the world to follow our lead. God bless Sweden for seeing the way. I'm Swedish. American. And pissed.

Flamebait? It's a /. high crime. Fomenting an uncomfortable discussion. And that's just talking! God forbid anyone ever actually did anything!

Not necessarily. The US Copyright Act allows for "Work for Hire" contracts, in which the copyright for a work goes to the employer who hired the creator to make the work, not to the creator. It all depends on the contract.

I would imagine that most musical artists hold the copyright to their own music.

I'm not going to do the legwork for you, but I imagine you are mistaken.

Well, maybe a little legwork. Start here and here.

Patrick Smith, an out-of-work pilot that writes for Salon, encouraged people to vote down the Dreamliner name that the French apparently overwhelmingly approved of.

I thought Steve Jobs hated the CEO of the company that currently controls the Pooh franchise.

• DuPont family member sets up secret training camps for paramilitary forces in preparation for a coup against Pres. Roosevelt. (1934)
• US Explorer space satellite program was a cover story for spy satellites. (1960s)
• The "Tonkin Gulf attack" used by Pres. Johnson to justify the Vietnam War never happened. (1964).
• Bush crony involved in massacre of gold miners in Tanzania. (1996)

It's funny. I just heard of Ellen Ullman last night when reading a random blog that linked to "The Dumbing-Down of Programming"

I loved the way she described it all... I was reliving my days back in the dorm, installing slackware for the first time. Highly recommended.

Xix.

• Jenni LaPlante, 18, said one of the suspected shooters was calm Tuesday morning at a beforeschool bowling class.
• Six hours before they opened fire [...] Senior Dustin Harrison said they showed up bright and cheerful for the 6:30 a.m. session, and he laughed and joked with both of them.
• Tuesday, Harris, Klebold and another friend missed their 6:30 a.m. bowling class at Englewood's AMF Belleview Lanes. "You always kind of noticed them," said 17-year-old John Hause

Dustin Harrison says both were there. Jenni LaPlante says one was calm, so we know she believed one to be there. (Nothing is said about the other.) John Hause says they missed the class, but he bases this on the fact that he didn't notice them, but he may have missed them if they "were calm" instead of behaving normally; i.e. if they weren't disrupting class with nazi salutes like they often did, he may not have noticed them. We can't say what the police think with any certainty, because we don't have accurate quotes. However, it looks like some of their class thought they were there, and there's a logical reason why the one person quoted as saying they were not may have been wrong. The only way to know for certain is to check the class attendance sheet, but more people are saying they were there than not. I'd say BFC is on solid ground.





Claim 2: Lockheed Martin's plant in Littleton doesn't make weapons. It makes space launch vehicles for TV satellites.

Truth: Moore was not standing in front of a weapon, but that plant does have a history of producing them

Details:
The martin plant in littleton was founded as a defense plant, and is where the titan family of missiles were built . The Titan II is "the largest Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile (ICBM) ever developed by the United States.". In 1998, the Littleton plant recieved $550,889,415 of airforce money for continued booster procurement and assembly; three ship sets of solid rocket motor upgrades, spares, and liquid rocket engine quartz skirts for the Ti

Jon Katz's media criticism has appeared in Wired and the New York Times. He is the author of the mystery novels "Last Housewife" (Doubleday) "Death by Station Wagon" (Bantam) and "The Family Stalker" (Bantam). He can be reached at JDKatz@aol.com.

I've read the sentences numerous times. Read mine again. I do not claim duplicating == loaning. Using the logic that a duplication means money out of someone's pocket, then the use of a single copy for multiple people is just as equally economically depriving. I am not claiming copying is good or right, merely pointing out that if copying = depriving people of their hard earned money, then the logical conclusion of that limited reasoning is that libraries also deprive people of hard earned money.

While I might agree with you in concept, what the hell numbers are you quickly looking at? You got a great reference: sight it. Otherwise as far as I can tell you pulled that out of your ass.

One story stating musicnet as 75,000 subscribers, which is better than pressplay. Perhaps it would be better to say the public response to the variety of such ventures is lukewarm at best (excepting the iTunes store). BTW, the word is cite, not sight.

Bingo, this is the business world. They aren't there to protect your rights, just their interests. See the well know industry attempts at more percise crippling attempts: Palladium, Digital Rights Management

Exactly. This response was to a question about fair use rights of the consumer, and his answer was essentially a "we're concerned with our interests, not your your rights." Rather than give an honest answer, the response was that we want a technology that can determine your intent and prevent the "bad" kind, a task that is obviously impossible.

Finally, a reference. Here I'm just curious: does anyone really believe that as P2P becomes more common it wouldn't disrupt sales? The paradigm has shifted, thats the issue here. Does the Recording Industry have the right to limit our rights in order to protect an out moded business model?

Actually, I'm not sure how much it will disrupt sales. I submit that what might actually happen is a change in the breadth of what is bought, rather than an absolute decline. This is a point I am very open to discuss, yet my original point is that the riaa drones that maintain P2P is the cause of the sales decline when there I've seen no real evidence of that suggestion. You and I can sit here and debate the outcomes we expect, yet that will be as much meaningless blather as the drones in the absence of real data.

Who's the thief? I mean do you know who your stealing from every time you download? Are you sure you haven't downloaded anything self distributed? There are honest people in the music industry and dishonest people, what's your point?

The recording industry = the thief, downloaders = second thief. There are a number of highly publicized artists who've claimed that the real thieves are the record companies themselves. This was what the question was about, and taking the viewpoint of those artists, it becomes an interesting excercise in hypocrisy. If this group is essentially stealing from artists, and then blasting listeners for "stealing from artists," who is really harming the artists more? Again, I am not suggesting we steal, shoplift or illegally download to Fight-the-Man (tm), merely making a counter-point to the riaa drone.

Stealing a DVD is depriving ownership of an object, Copying a song is depriving no one of ownership.

..you make a cohesive point. But of course it is depriving someone of ownership: the record company and the artist.

of course? I think this issue is much more complicated than that. When I copy a file, I am

Remember Toni Braxton? She sold an assload of CDs when she first hit the business. And I don't say 'assload' lightly. Check out this article at Salon that touches on the subject: Courtney Love does the math

According to Salon, rampant piracy (not the on-line kind) has hit Mexico's music industry very hard.

This was addressed in the recent salon.com article called "Lawyers against Linux". I think it's a MUST READ - at least click-through to get a day pass for this article.

To quote the bit about IBM's response:

An IBM spokesman declined to comment on the SCO case. The company's legal response to SCO, however, leaves little doubt about IBM's feelings: The filing is an almost comically terse list denying all but the most indisputable claims that SCO makes. For example, one line reads that IBM "denies the averments of paragraph 19, except admits that IBM markets a Unix software product under the trade name 'AIX.'" IBM also candidly admits that its principal place of business is in New York, that it maintains an office in Salt Lake City, and that some of its microchips are more powerful than chips made by Intel. It gives no more ground than that, however.

In a nutshell, they aren't really taking it seriously - at least not in their initial response to SCO's allegations...

It turns out I misremembered the incident. The man actually did get up and go to the bathroom. Anyway, I had thought they tackled him when he got up to leave the airplane, but the article I read today (which was more complete than the original one I read) gave a slightly different scenario. Still he is currently on trial for a felony charge on this.

Your wish has been granted. Don't you feel better? Now the Air Marshals are onboard to enforce the rules, ensuring you don't get up to go to the bathroom, or act too curiously. There have always been a whole bunch of crazy rules on airplanes, which carried the weight of federal law. Now there are air marshals watching everything you do to make sure you do not break those laws, though they cannot properly handle their firearms (I tried to find other articles, but the articles I linked mentioned several incidents of leaving firearms in bathrooms and one in which a firearm went off in a bathroom) and are not well trained. They are also overworked and underpaid, which has real consequences (for the click-challenged, sleeping air marshals with their guns openly available to terrorists present little protection).

Still, be that as it may, the short and sweet of it is don't fuck with air marshalls. They have guns, they are tired, cranky, and edgy, and have the right to shoot you with minimal cause and arrest you with no cause. So for those of you who wanted to have enforcement of the seatbelt rules, you now have it at the barrel of a gun. Ditto for smoking or using the bathroom or cell phones. In the article a man was immediately arrested in the UK for having his cell phone on (though not in use) and sentenced to 12 months in jail. That'll teach that terrorist bastard, eh? I would have to wonder what the US would have done.

Now, I have been flying for years (though not since 9/11) and it has been pretty well obvious that being on a plane is serious business (for instance, even before 9/11 smoking or saying the words bomb, gun, etc could get you booted/thrown in prison in the US). I understand it is important to have rules for safety since a cock-up on a plane is no joke, and I follow the rules assiduously. But I have to wonder if what we are doing now is not too much of the keeping the ordinary passengers' seat belts on and not enough of the stopping the real terrorists.

Incidentally here's an interesting story about terrorists' use of encryption in Salon: The Encrypted Jihad

Songwriters own "the words" and or "the music."

From what I understood, that seems technically correct but misleading in practice. My understanding was that artists typically (and naively) sign away their publishing rights and all of their copyrights to the label, because labels like to offer to "take care of" legal matters like copyright. But this might be a misunderstanding on my part due to lack of knowledge.

At any rate, I found a couple good links that are well worth reading. they might even clarify my confusion on the topic:

• questions about music and IP, great FAQ about music IP
• the problem with music, famous and invaluable rant against major labels by steve albini (ironically, courney love borrowed a great deal from that article without giving credit when she wrote her famous anti-major label rant)

Citing Michael Moore as a reference is never a good thing. See here and here.

Open this page, then open this one.

Bingo, free salon story, no ads.

Open this page, then open this one.

Bingo, free salon story, no ads.

Salon has a story on SCO too, but sadly it's not available to read freely

Salon gives you a "Free Day Pass" that allows access to all of the content if you are willing to sit through a 15-second ad.

Nope, it's the Uncle. See the salon.com article, which gives the Sr. suffix to the quoted judge. Besides, the OP specifies a US District Court judge, which the uncle is, while the cousin is Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Missouri.

This article came out almost exactly a year ago and has an interesting quote regarding all the devices, including this one, that license MPEG4:

"The MPEG-4 compression has run into controversy regarding high licensing fees. So significant were the fees that Apple actually delayed the release of Quicktime 6 in protest. How this will all play out with users over time is not known yet, but unless this fee issue is addressed it may dampen adoption by users."

Also, the link above links to this article regarding the entire controversy. (It's kind of funny because the first article is dated before the second one, so obviously that article was modified to include the link after being first published without the date changing.)

I wonder if they've managed to knock down the price or if the license is a significant portion of the cost of the device?

According to Salon (ad clickthrough required), John McCain has scheduled a hearing of the Senate Commerce Committee for this Wednesday. All 5 commissioners including Powell will be there. Your opinions can be sent to Sen. McCain here. The Commerce Committee's listing is here. While it does include Fritz Hollings (D-Disney) It also includes such high-profile opponents as Olympia Snowe (Maine) and Ted Stevens (Alaska). Congress can still stall this. It isn't over yet.

Yeah but when the 'dissident' FCC commisioners held a public meeting in Atlanta on media consolidation, none of the big corporate papers or TV stations would announce that it was coming up. *That's* media control.

(Darn. The most relevant link I can find offhand is this one, which requires that you sit through an ad to see the whole thing)

It's not so much the entertainment programming as the influence on public opinion issues - i.e. what do they show, and what do they not show, on the news?

The problem is all these media companies going vertical. Right now Clear Channel has a lock on most outdoor advertising, and most of the large concert venues, plus significant control over the FM spectrum here in San Francisco. As a performer if you want to play a concert you have to play by their rules.

This leads to banning anti-war pamphlets at Ani Di Franco concerts, faux pro-war rallies, and more.

Salon has extensive coverage of the Clear Channel mess here

Complain now, don't wait for Clear Channel to buy /.

Oops, forgot the salmon link

Update: "Fist Sport" explained. (05/17/01)

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Paid for advertisement from the Michael Sims is a Treacherous Cunt society

Freedom
Is
Really
Something
That

Pisses
Off
Slashdot
Tyrants.

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It has come to my attention that the entire Linux community is a hotbed of so called 'alternative sexuality,' which includes anything from hedonistic orgies to homosexuality to pedophilia.

What better way of demonstrating this than by looking at the hidden messages contained within the names of some of Linux's most outspoken advocates:

Linus Torvalds is an anagram of SLIT ANUS OR VD 'L,' clearly referring to himself by the first initial.

Richard M. Stallman , spokespervert for the Gaysex is Not Unusual 'movement' is an anagram of MANS CRAM THRILL AD.

Alan Cox is barely an anagram of ANAL COX which is just so filthy and unchristian it unnerves me.

I'm sure that Eric S. Raymond, composer of the satanic homosexual propaganda diatribe The Cathedral and the Bizarre, [Buy At Amazon] is probably an anagram of something queer, but we don't need to look that far as we know he's always shoving a gun up some poor little boy's rectum. Update: Eric S. Raymond is actually an anagram for SECONDARY RIM and CORD IN MY ARSE. It just goes to show you that he is indeed queer.

Update the Second: It is also documented that Evil Sicko Gaymond is responsible for a nauseating piece of code called Fetchmail, which is obviously sinister sodomite slang for "Felch Male" - a disgusting practise. For those not in the know, "felching" is the act performed by two perverts wherein one sucks their own post-coital ejaculate out of the other's rectum. In fact, it appears that the dirty Linux faggots set out to undermine the good Republican institution of e-mail, turning it into "e-male."

As far as Richard "(cock)Master" Stallman goes, that filthy fudge-packer was actually quoted on leftist commie propaganda site Salon.com as saying the following:

RMS: "I've been resistant to the pressure to conform in any circumstance," he says. "It's about being able to question conventional wisdom," he asserts. "I believe in love, but not monogamy," he says plainly.

And this isn't a made up troll bullshit either! He actually stated this tripe, which makes it obvious that he is trying to politely say that he's a flaming homo slut!

Speaking about "flaming," who better to point out as a filthy chutney ferret than Slashdot's very own self-confessed pederast Jon Katz. Although an obvious deviant anagram cannot be found from his name, he has already confessed, nay boasted of the homosexual perversion of corrupting the innocence of young children. To quote from the article linked:

"I've got a rare kidney disease,' I told her. 'I have to go to the bathroom a lot. You can come with me if you want, but it takes a while. Is that okay with you? Do you want a note from my doctor?'

Is this why you were touching your penis in

Update: "Fist Sport" explained. (05/17/01)

---

Paid for advertisement from the Michael Sims is a Treacherous Cunt society

Freedom
Is
Really
Something
That

Pisses
Off
Slashdot
Tyrants.

---

It has come to my attention that the entire Linux community is a hotbed of so called 'alternative sexuality,' which includes anything from hedonistic orgies to homosexuality to pedophilia.

What better way of demonstrating this than by looking at the hidden messages contained within the names of some of Linux's most outspoken advocates:

Linus Torvalds is an anagram of SLIT ANUS OR VD 'L,' clearly referring to himself by the first initial.

Richard M. Stallman , spokespervert for the Gaysex is Not Unusual 'movement' is an anagram of MANS CRAM THRILL AD.

Alan Cox is barely an anagram of ANAL COX which is just so filthy and unchristian it unnerves me.

I'm sure that Eric S. Raymond, composer of the satanic homosexual propaganda diatribe The Cathedral and the Bizarre, [Buy At Amazon] is probably an anagram of something queer, but we don't need to look that far as we know he's always shoving a gun up some poor little boy's rectum. Update: Eric S. Raymond is actually an anagram for SECONDARY RIM and CORD IN MY ARSE. It just goes to show you that he is indeed queer.

Update the Second: It is also documented that Evil Sicko Gaymond is responsible for a nauseating piece of code called Fetchmail, which is obviously sinister sodomite slang for "Felch Male" - a disgusting practise. For those not in the know, "felching" is the act performed by two perverts wherein one sucks their own post-coital ejaculate out of the other's rectum. In fact, it appears that the dirty Linux faggots set out to undermine the good Republican institution of e-mail, turning it into "e-male."

As far as Richard "(cock)Master" Stallman goes, that filthy fudge-packer was actually quoted on leftist commie propaganda site Salon.com as saying the following:

RMS: "I've been resistant to the pressure to conform in any circumstance," he says. "It's about being able to question conventional wisdom," he asserts. "I believe in love, but not monogamy," he says plainly.

And this isn't a made up troll bullshit either! He actually stated this tripe, which makes it obvious that he is trying to politely say that he's a flaming homo slut!

Speaking about "flaming," who better to point out as a filthy chutney ferret than Slashdot's very own self-confessed pederast Jon Katz. Although an obvious deviant anagram cannot be found from his name, he has already confessed, nay boasted of the homosexual perversion of corrupting the innocence of young children. To quote from the article linked:

"I've got a rare kidney disease,' I told her. 'I have to go to the bathroom a lot. You can come with me if you want, but it takes a while. Is that okay with you? Do you want a note from my doctor?'

Is this why you were touching your penis in

Update: "Fist Sport" explained. (05/17/01)

---

Paid for advertisement from the Michael Sims is a Treacherous Cunt society

Freedom
Is
Really
Something
That

Pisses
Off
Slashdot
Tyrants.

---

It has come to my attention that the entire Linux community is a hotbed of so called 'alternative sexuality,' which includes anything from hedonistic orgies to homosexuality to pedophilia.

What better way of demonstrating this than by looking at the hidden messages contained within the names of some of Linux's most outspoken advocates:

Linus Torvalds is an anagram of SLIT ANUS OR VD 'L,' clearly referring to himself by the first initial.

Richard M. Stallman , spokespervert for the Gaysex is Not Unusual 'movement' is an anagram of MANS CRAM THRILL AD.

Alan Cox is barely an anagram of ANAL COX which is just so filthy and unchristian it unnerves me.

I'm sure that Eric S. Raymond, composer of the satanic homosexual propaganda diatribe The Cathedral and the Bizarre, [Buy At Amazon] is probably an anagram of something queer, but we don't need to look that far as we know he's always shoving a gun up some poor little boy's rectum. Update: Eric S. Raymond is actually an anagram for SECONDARY RIM and CORD IN MY ARSE. It just goes to show you that he is indeed queer.

Update the Second: It is also documented that Evil Sicko Gaymond is responsible for a nauseating piece of code called Fetchmail, which is obviously sinister sodomite slang for "Felch Male" - a disgusting practise. For those not in the know, "felching" is the act performed by two perverts wherein one sucks their own post-coital ejaculate out of the other's rectum. In fact, it appears that the dirty Linux faggots set out to undermine the good Republican institution of e-mail, turning it into "e-male."

As far as Richard "(cock)Master" Stallman goes, that filthy fudge-packer was actually quoted on leftist commie propaganda site Salon.com as saying the following:

RMS: "I've been resistant to the pressure to conform in any circumstance," he says. "It's about being able to question conventional wisdom," he asserts. "I believe in love, but not monogamy," he says plainly.

And this isn't a made up troll bullshit either! He actually stated this tripe, which makes it obvious that he is trying to politely say that he's a flaming homo slut!

Speaking about "flaming," who better to point out as a filthy chutney ferret than Slashdot's very own self-confessed pederast Jon Katz. Although an obvious deviant anagram cannot be found from his name, he has already confessed, nay boasted of the homosexual perversion of corrupting the innocence of young children. To quote from the article linked:

"I've got a rare kidney disease,' I told her. 'I have to go to the bathroom a lot. You can come with me if you want, but it takes a while. Is that okay with you? Do you want a note from my doctor?'

Is this why you were touching your penis in

Update: "Fist Sport" explained. (05/17/01)

---

Paid for advertisement from the Michael Sims is a Treacherous Cunt society

Freedom
Is
Really
Something
That

Pisses
Off
Slashdot
Tyrants.

---

It has come to my attention that the entire Linux community is a hotbed of so called 'alternative sexuality,' which includes anything from hedonistic orgies to homosexuality to pedophilia.

What better way of demonstrating this than by looking at the hidden messages contained within the names of some of Linux's most outspoken advocates:

Linus Torvalds is an anagram of SLIT ANUS OR VD 'L,' clearly referring to himself by the first initial.

Richard M. Stallman , spokespervert for the Gaysex is Not Unusual 'movement' is an anagram of MANS CRAM THRILL AD.

Alan Cox is barely an anagram of ANAL COX which is just so filthy and unchristian it unnerves me.

I'm sure that Eric S. Raymond, composer of the satanic homosexual propaganda diatribe The Cathedral and the Bizarre, [Buy At Amazon] is probably an anagram of something queer, but we don't need to look that far as we know he's always shoving a gun up some poor little boy's rectum. Update: Eric S. Raymond is actually an anagram for SECONDARY RIM and CORD IN MY ARSE. It just goes to show you that he is indeed queer.

Update the Second: It is also documented that Evil Sicko Gaymond is responsible for a nauseating piece of code called Fetchmail, which is obviously sinister sodomite slang for "Felch Male" - a disgusting practise. For those not in the know, "felching" is the act performed by two perverts wherein one sucks their own post-coital ejaculate out of the other's rectum. In fact, it appears that the dirty Linux faggots set out to undermine the good Republican institution of e-mail, turning it into "e-male."

As far as Richard "(cock)Master" Stallman goes, that filthy fudge-packer was actually quoted on leftist commie propaganda site Salon.com as saying the following:

RMS: "I've been resistant to the pressure to conform in any circumstance," he says. "It's about being able to question conventional wisdom," he asserts. "I believe in love, but not monogamy," he says plainly.

And this isn't a made up troll bullshit either! He actually stated this tripe, which makes it obvious that he is trying to politely say that he's a flaming homo slut!

Speaking about "flaming," who better to point out as a filthy chutney ferret than Slashdot's very own self-confessed pederast Jon Katz. Although an obvious deviant anagram cannot be found from his name, he has already confessed, nay boasted of the homosexual perversion of corrupting the innocence of young children. To quote from the article linked:

"I've got a rare kidney disease,' I told her. 'I have to go to the bathroom a lot. You can come with me if you want, but it takes a while. Is that okay with you? Do you want a note from my doctor?'

Is this why you were touching your penis in

Update: "Fist Sport" explained. (05/17/01)

---

Paid for advertisement from the Michael Sims is a Treacherous Cunt society

Freedom
Is
Really
Something
That

Pisses
Off
Slashdot
Tyrants.

---

It has come to my attention that the entire Linux community is a hotbed of so called 'alternative sexuality,' which includes anything from hedonistic orgies to homosexuality to pedophilia.

What better way of demonstrating this than by looking at the hidden messages contained within the names of some of Linux's most outspoken advocates:

Linus Torvalds is an anagram of SLIT ANUS OR VD 'L,' clearly referring to himself by the first initial.

Richard M. Stallman , spokespervert for the Gaysex is Not Unusual 'movement' is an anagram of MANS CRAM THRILL AD.

Alan Cox is barely an anagram of ANAL COX which is just so filthy and unchristian it unnerves me.

I'm sure that Eric S. Raymond, composer of the satanic homosexual propaganda diatribe The Cathedral and the Bizarre, [Buy At Amazon] is probably an anagram of something queer, but we don't need to look that far as we know he's always shoving a gun up some poor little boy's rectum. Update: Eric S. Raymond is actually an anagram for SECONDARY RIM and CORD IN MY ARSE. It just goes to show you that he is indeed queer.

Update the Second: It is also documented that Evil Sicko Gaymond is responsible for a nauseating piece of code called Fetchmail, which is obviously sinister sodomite slang for "Felch Male" - a disgusting practise. For those not in the know, "felching" is the act performed by two perverts wherein one sucks their own post-coital ejaculate out of the other's rectum. In fact, it appears that the dirty Linux faggots set out to undermine the good Republican institution of e-mail, turning it into "e-male."

As far as Richard "(cock)Master" Stallman goes, that filthy fudge-packer was actually quoted on leftist commie propaganda site Salon.com as saying the following:

RMS: "I've been resistant to the pressure to conform in any circumstance," he says. "It's about being able to question conventional wisdom," he asserts. "I believe in love, but not monogamy," he says plainly.

And this isn't a made up troll bullshit either! He actually stated this tripe, which makes it obvious that he is trying to politely say that he's a flaming homo slut!

Speaking about "flaming," who better to point out as a filthy chutney ferret than Slashdot's very own self-confessed pederast Jon Katz. Although an obvious deviant anagram cannot be found from his name, he has already confessed, nay boasted of the homosexual perversion of corrupting the innocence of young children. To quote from the article linked:

"I've got a rare kidney disease,' I told her. 'I have to go to the bathroom a lot. You can come with me if you want, but it takes a while. Is that okay with you? Do you want a note from my doctor?'

Is this why you were touching your penis in

Used to be, there was this cool place in Seattle called Entros. For a while there was one in San Francisco, too. Now they are gone, with no trace save a "demo" web site.

It was a restaurant/bar that had about five entertainment areas around it. The entertainment areas were always cool and different.

The most famous was "Interface", where one person wears a blindfold and a camera, and the other person sits in front of a screen watching what the camera sees; using two-way radio, the second guy tells the first guy where to go and what to do. "Go left, step forward, reach down, no, left, no, LEFT, feel for the ball, YOU TOUCHED IT! GO BACK!" Within a set period of time you had to accomplish certain tasks. If you got them all done, you were allowed to enter the victory lounge. I never got to see that lounge...

Anyway, they had a sort of game show where you had to compete to see who was the calmest. They would hook up the players to biofeedback, and then they would do various things to try to shake the players' calm. For the winner, it played a recorded voice saying something like "YOU ARE THE BUDDHA".

I miss Entros.

steveha

Update: "Fist Sport" explained. (05/17/01)

---

Paid for advertisement from the Michael Sims is a Treacherous Cunt society

Freedom
Is
Really
Something
That

Pisses
Off
Slashdot
Tyrants.

---

It has come to my attention that the entire Linux community is a hotbed of so called 'alternative sexuality,' which includes anything from hedonistic orgies to homosexuality to pedophilia.

What better way of demonstrating this than by looking at the hidden messages contained within the names of some of Linux's most outspoken advocates:

Linus Torvalds is an anagram of SLIT ANUS OR VD 'L,' clearly referring to himself by the first initial.

Richard M. Stallman , spokespervert for the Gaysex is Not Unusual 'movement' is an anagram of MANS CRAM THRILL AD.

Alan Cox is barely an anagram of ANAL COX which is just so filthy and unchristian it unnerves me.

I'm sure that Eric S. Raymond, composer of the satanic homosexual propaganda diatribe The Cathedral and the Bizarre, [Buy At Amazon] is probably an anagram of something queer, but we don't need to look that far as we know he's always shoving a gun up some poor little boy's rectum. Update: Eric S. Raymond is actually an anagram for SECONDARY RIM and CORD IN MY ARSE. It just goes to show you that he is indeed queer.

Update the Second: It is also documented that Evil Sicko Gaymond is responsible for a nauseating piece of code called Fetchmail, which is obviously sinister sodomite slang for "Felch Male" - a disgusting practise. For those not in the know, "felching" is the act performed by two perverts wherein one sucks their own post-coital ejaculate out of the other's rectum. In fact, it appears that the dirty Linux faggots set out to undermine the good Republican institution of e-mail, turning it into "e-male."

As far as Richard "(cock)Master" Stallman goes, that filthy fudge-packer was actually quoted on leftist commie propaganda site Salon.com as saying the following:

RMS: "I've been resistant to the pressure to conform in any circumstance," he says. "It's about being able to question conventional wisdom," he asserts. "I believe in love, but not monogamy," he says plainly.

And this isn't a made up troll bullshit either! He actually stated this tripe, which makes it obvious that he is trying to politely say that he's a flaming homo slut!

Speaking about "flaming," who better to point out as a filthy chutney ferret than Slashdot's very own self-confessed pederast Jon Katz. Although an obvious deviant anagram cannot be found from his name, he has already confessed, nay boasted of the homosexual perversion of corrupting the innocence of young children. To quote from the article linked:

"I've got a rare kidney disease,' I told her. 'I have to go to the bathroom a lot. You can come with me if you want, but it takes a while. Is that okay with you? Do you want a note from my doctor?'

Is this why you were touching your penis in

Update: "Fist Sport" explained. (05/17/01)

---

Paid for advertisement from the Michael Sims is a Treacherous Cunt society

Freedom
Is
Really
Something
That

Pisses
Off
Slashdot
Tyrants.

---

It has come to my attention that the entire Linux community is a hotbed of so called 'alternative sexuality,' which includes anything from hedonistic orgies to homosexuality to pedophilia.

What better way of demonstrating this than by looking at the hidden messages contained within the names of some of Linux's most outspoken advocates:

Linus Torvalds is an anagram of SLIT ANUS OR VD 'L,' clearly referring to himself by the first initial.

Richard M. Stallman , spokespervert for the Gaysex is Not Unusual 'movement' is an anagram of MANS CRAM THRILL AD.

Alan Cox is barely an anagram of ANAL COX which is just so filthy and unchristian it unnerves me.

I'm sure that Eric S. Raymond, composer of the satanic homosexual propaganda diatribe The Cathedral and the Bizarre, [Buy At Amazon] is probably an anagram of something queer, but we don't need to look that far as we know he's always shoving a gun up some poor little boy's rectum. Update: Eric S. Raymond is actually an anagram for SECONDARY RIM and CORD IN MY ARSE. It just goes to show you that he is indeed queer.

Update the Second: It is also documented that Evil Sicko Gaymond is responsible for a nauseating piece of code called Fetchmail, which is obviously sinister sodomite slang for "Felch Male" - a disgusting practise. For those not in the know, "felching" is the act performed by two perverts wherein one sucks their own post-coital ejaculate out of the other's rectum. In fact, it appears that the dirty Linux faggots set out to undermine the good Republican institution of e-mail, turning it into "e-male."

As far as Richard "(cock)Master" Stallman goes, that filthy fudge-packer was actually quoted on leftist commie propaganda site Salon.com as saying the following:

RMS: "I've been resistant to the pressure to conform in any circumstance," he says. "It's about being able to question conventional wisdom," he asserts. "I believe in love, but not monogamy," he says plainly.

And this isn't a made up troll bullshit either! He actually stated this tripe, which makes it obvious that he is trying to politely say that he's a flaming homo slut!

Speaking about "flaming," who better to point out as a filthy chutney ferret than Slashdot's very own self-confessed pederast Jon Katz. Although an obvious deviant anagram cannot be found from his name, he has already confessed, nay boasted of the homosexual perversion of corrupting the innocence of young children. To quote from the article linked:

"I've got a rare kidney disease,' I told her. 'I have to go to the bathroom a lot. You can come with me if you want, but it takes a while. Is that okay with you? Do you want a note from my doctor?'

Is this why you were touching your penis in

Update: "Fist Sport" explained. (05/17/01)

---

Paid for advertisement from the Michael Sims is a Treacherous Cunt society

Freedom
Is
Really
Something
That

Pisses
Off
Slashdot
Tyrants.

---

It has come to my attention that the entire Linux community is a hotbed of so called 'alternative sexuality,' which includes anything from hedonistic orgies to homosexuality to pedophilia.

What better way of demonstrating this than by looking at the hidden messages contained within the names of some of Linux's most outspoken advocates:

Linus Torvalds is an anagram of SLIT ANUS OR VD 'L,' clearly referring to himself by the first initial.

Richard M. Stallman , spokespervert for the Gaysex is Not Unusual 'movement' is an anagram of MANS CRAM THRILL AD.

Alan Cox is barely an anagram of ANAL COX which is just so filthy and unchristian it unnerves me.

I'm sure that Eric S. Raymond, composer of the satanic homosexual propaganda diatribe The Cathedral and the Bizarre, [Buy At Amazon] is probably an anagram of something queer, but we don't need to look that far as we know he's always shoving a gun up some poor little boy's rectum. Update: Eric S. Raymond is actually an anagram for SECONDARY RIM and CORD IN MY ARSE. It just goes to show you that he is indeed queer.

Update the Second: It is also documented that Evil Sicko Gaymond is responsible for a nauseating piece of code called Fetchmail, which is obviously sinister sodomite slang for "Felch Male" - a disgusting practise. For those not in the know, "felching" is the act performed by two perverts wherein one sucks their own post-coital ejaculate out of the other's rectum. In fact, it appears that the dirty Linux faggots set out to undermine the good Republican institution of e-mail, turning it into "e-male."

As far as Richard "(cock)Master" Stallman goes, that filthy fudge-packer was actually quoted on leftist commie propaganda site Salon.com as saying the following:

RMS: "I've been resistant to the pressure to conform in any circumstance," he says. "It's about being able to question conventional wisdom," he asserts. "I believe in love, but not monogamy," he says plainly.

And this isn't a made up troll bullshit either! He actually stated this tripe, which makes it obvious that he is trying to politely say that he's a flaming homo slut!

Speaking about "flaming," who better to point out as a filthy chutney ferret than Slashdot's very own self-confessed pederast Jon Katz. Although an obvious deviant anagram cannot be found from his name, he has already confessed, nay boasted of the homosexual perversion of corrupting the innocence of young children. To quote from the article linked:

"I've got a rare kidney disease,' I told her. 'I have to go to the bathroom a lot. You can come with me if you want, but it takes a while. Is that okay with you? Do you want a note from my doctor?'

Is this why you were touching your penis in

Update: "Fist Sport" explained. (05/17/01)

---

Paid for advertisement from the Michael Sims is a Treacherous Cunt society

Freedom
Is
Really
Something
That

Pisses
Off
Slashdot
Tyrants.

---

It has come to my attention that the entire Linux community is a hotbed of so called 'alternative sexuality,' which includes anything from hedonistic orgies to homosexuality to pedophilia.

What better way of demonstrating this than by looking at the hidden messages contained within the names of some of Linux's most outspoken advocates:

Linus Torvalds is an anagram of SLIT ANUS OR VD 'L,' clearly referring to himself by the first initial.

Richard M. Stallman , spokespervert for the Gaysex is Not Unusual 'movement' is an anagram of MANS CRAM THRILL AD.

Alan Cox is barely an anagram of ANAL COX which is just so filthy and unchristian it unnerves me.

I'm sure that Eric S. Raymond, composer of the satanic homosexual propaganda diatribe The Cathedral and the Bizarre, [Buy At Amazon] is probably an anagram of something queer, but we don't need to look that far as we know he's always shoving a gun up some poor little boy's rectum. Update: Eric S. Raymond is actually an anagram for SECONDARY RIM and CORD IN MY ARSE. It just goes to show you that he is indeed queer.

Update the Second: It is also documented that Evil Sicko Gaymond is responsible for a nauseating piece of code called Fetchmail, which is obviously sinister sodomite slang for "Felch Male" - a disgusting practise. For those not in the know, "felching" is the act performed by two perverts wherein one sucks their own post-coital ejaculate out of the other's rectum. In fact, it appears that the dirty Linux faggots set out to undermine the good Republican institution of e-mail, turning it into "e-male."

As far as Richard "(cock)Master" Stallman goes, that filthy fudge-packer was actually quoted on leftist commie propaganda site Salon.com as saying the following:

RMS: "I've been resistant to the pressure to conform in any circumstance," he says. "It's about being able to question conventional wisdom," he asserts. "I believe in love, but not monogamy," he says plainly.

And this isn't a made up troll bullshit either! He actually stated this tripe, which makes it obvious that he is trying to politely say that he's a flaming homo slut!

Speaking about "flaming," who better to point out as a filthy chutney ferret than Slashdot's very own self-confessed pederast Jon Katz. Although an obvious deviant anagram cannot be found from his name, he has already confessed, nay boasted of the homosexual perversion of corrupting the innocence of young children. To quote from the article linked:

"I've got a rare kidney disease,' I told her. 'I have to go to the bathroom a lot. You can come with me if you want, but it takes a while. Is that okay with you? Do you want a note from my doctor?'

Is this why you were touching your penis in

Update: "Fist Sport" explained. (05/17/01)

---

Paid for advertisement from the Michael Sims is a Treacherous Cunt society

Freedom
Is
Really
Something
That

Pisses
Off
Slashdot
Tyrants.

---

It has come to my attention that the entire Linux community is a hotbed of so called 'alternative sexuality,' which includes anything from hedonistic orgies to homosexuality to pedophilia.

What better way of demonstrating this than by looking at the hidden messages contained within the names of some of Linux's most outspoken advocates:

Linus Torvalds is an anagram of SLIT ANUS OR VD 'L,' clearly referring to himself by the first initial.

Richard M. Stallman , spokespervert for the Gaysex is Not Unusual 'movement' is an anagram of MANS CRAM THRILL AD.

Alan Cox is barely an anagram of ANAL COX which is just so filthy and unchristian it unnerves me.

I'm sure that Eric S. Raymond, composer of the satanic homosexual propaganda diatribe The Cathedral and the Bizarre, [Buy At Amazon] is probably an anagram of something queer, but we don't need to look that far as we know he's always shoving a gun up some poor little boy's rectum. Update: Eric S. Raymond is actually an anagram for SECONDARY RIM and CORD IN MY ARSE. It just goes to show you that he is indeed queer.

Update the Second: It is also documented that Evil Sicko Gaymond is responsible for a nauseating piece of code called Fetchmail, which is obviously sinister sodomite slang for "Felch Male" - a disgusting practise. For those not in the know, "felching" is the act performed by two perverts wherein one sucks their own post-coital ejaculate out of the other's rectum. In fact, it appears that the dirty Linux faggots set out to undermine the good Republican institution of e-mail, turning it into "e-male."

As far as Richard "(cock)Master" Stallman goes, that filthy fudge-packer was actually quoted on leftist commie propaganda site Salon.com as saying the following:

RMS: "I've been resistant to the pressure to conform in any circumstance," he says. "It's about being able to question conventional wisdom," he asserts. "I believe in love, but not monogamy," he says plainly.

And this isn't a made up troll bullshit either! He actually stated this tripe, which makes it obvious that he is trying to politely say that he's a flaming homo slut!

Speaking about "flaming," who better to point out as a filthy chutney ferret than Slashdot's very own self-confessed pederast Jon Katz. Although an obvious deviant anagram cannot be found from his name, he has already confessed, nay boasted of the homosexual perversion of corrupting the innocence of young children. To quote from the article linked:

"I've got a rare kidney disease,' I told her. 'I have to go to the bathroom a lot. You can come with me if you want, but it takes a while. Is that okay with you? Do you want a note from my doctor?'

Is this why you were touching your penis in

Update: "Fist Sport" explained. (05/17/01)

---

Paid for advertisement from the Michael Sims is a Treacherous Cunt society

Freedom
Is
Really
Something
That

Pisses
Off
Slashdot
Tyrants.

---

It has come to my attention that the entire Linux community is a hotbed of so called 'alternative sexuality,' which includes anything from hedonistic orgies to homosexuality to pedophilia.

What better way of demonstrating this than by looking at the hidden messages contained within the names of some of Linux's most outspoken advocates:

Linus Torvalds is an anagram of SLIT ANUS OR VD 'L,' clearly referring to himself by the first initial.

Richard M. Stallman , spokespervert for the Gaysex is Not Unusual 'movement' is an anagram of MANS CRAM THRILL AD.

Alan Cox is barely an anagram of ANAL COX which is just so filthy and unchristian it unnerves me.

I'm sure that Eric S. Raymond, composer of the satanic homosexual propaganda diatribe The Cathedral and the Bizarre, [Buy At Amazon] is probably an anagram of something queer, but we don't need to look that far as we know he's always shoving a gun up some poor little boy's rectum. Update: Eric S. Raymond is actually an anagram for SECONDARY RIM and CORD IN MY ARSE. It just goes to show you that he is indeed queer.

Update the Second: It is also documented that Evil Sicko Gaymond is responsible for a nauseating piece of code called Fetchmail, which is obviously sinister sodomite slang for "Felch Male" - a disgusting practise. For those not in the know, "felching" is the act performed by two perverts wherein one sucks their own post-coital ejaculate out of the other's rectum. In fact, it appears that the dirty Linux faggots set out to undermine the good Republican institution of e-mail, turning it into "e-male."

As far as Richard "(cock)Master" Stallman goes, that filthy fudge-packer was actually quoted on leftist commie propaganda site Salon.com as saying the following:

RMS: "I've been resistant to the pressure to conform in any circumstance," he says. "It's about being able to question conventional wisdom," he asserts. "I believe in love, but not monogamy," he says plainly.

And this isn't a made up troll bullshit either! He actually stated this tripe, which makes it obvious that he is trying to politely say that he's a flaming homo slut!

Speaking about "flaming," who better to point out as a filthy chutney ferret than Slashdot's very own self-confessed pederast Jon Katz. Although an obvious deviant anagram cannot be found from his name, he has already confessed, nay boasted of the homosexual perversion of corrupting the innocence of young children. To quote from the article linked:

"I've got a rare kidney disease,' I told her. 'I have to go to the bathroom a lot. You can come with me if you want, but it takes a while. Is that okay with you? Do you want a note from my doctor?'

Is this why you were touching your penis in

Update: "Fist Sport" explained. (05/17/01)

---

Paid for advertisement from the Michael Sims is a Treacherous Cunt society

Freedom
Is
Really
Something
That

Pisses
Off
Slashdot
Tyrants.

---

It has come to my attention that the entire Linux community is a hotbed of so called 'alternative sexuality,' which includes anything from hedonistic orgies to homosexuality to pedophilia.

What better way of demonstrating this than by looking at the hidden messages contained within the names of some of Linux's most outspoken advocates:

Linus Torvalds is an anagram of SLIT ANUS OR VD 'L,' clearly referring to himself by the first initial.

Richard M. Stallman , spokespervert for the Gaysex is Not Unusual 'movement' is an anagram of MANS CRAM THRILL AD.

Alan Cox is barely an anagram of ANAL COX which is just so filthy and unchristian it unnerves me.

I'm sure that Eric S. Raymond, composer of the satanic homosexual propaganda diatribe The Cathedral and the Bizarre, [Buy At Amazon] is probably an anagram of something queer, but we don't need to look that far as we know he's always shoving a gun up some poor little boy's rectum. Update: Eric S. Raymond is actually an anagram for SECONDARY RIM and CORD IN MY ARSE. It just goes to show you that he is indeed queer.

Update the Second: It is also documented that Evil Sicko Gaymond is responsible for a nauseating piece of code called Fetchmail, which is obviously sinister sodomite slang for "Felch Male" - a disgusting practise. For those not in the know, "felching" is the act performed by two perverts wherein one sucks their own post-coital ejaculate out of the other's rectum. In fact, it appears that the dirty Linux faggots set out to undermine the good Republican institution of e-mail, turning it into "e-male."

As far as Richard "(cock)Master" Stallman goes, that filthy fudge-packer was actually quoted on leftist commie propaganda site Salon.com as saying the following:

RMS: "I've been resistant to the pressure to conform in any circumstance," he says. "It's about being able to question conventional wisdom," he asserts. "I believe in love, but not monogamy," he says plainly.

And this isn't a made up troll bullshit either! He actually stated this tripe, which makes it obvious that he is trying to politely say that he's a flaming homo slut!

Speaking about "flaming," who better to point out as a filthy chutney ferret than Slashdot's very own self-confessed pederast Jon Katz. Although an obvious deviant anagram cannot be found from his name, he has already confessed, nay boasted of the homosexual perversion of corrupting the innocence of young children. To quote from the article linked:

"I've got a rare kidney disease,' I told her. 'I have to go to the bathroom a lot. You can come with me if you want, but it takes a while. Is that okay with you? Do you want a note from my doctor?'

Is this why you were touching your penis in

Salon review.

The brief interview that got me interested.

Salon's version of the story says they did account for that (by testing a group of non-gamers along with the gamers). The non-gamers didn't benefit from Tetris but did benefit from the fast-action games.

It has been proven in the software industry with the popularity of such programs as Lotus 1-2-3, dBase III, and others becoming, at least for a time, defacto standards because everyone was using them.

This use leads to more legal sales. In the music industry, mp3 downloads have helped artist popularity. Just ask Eminem. Unfortunately, paying later, in the case of music, doesn't help much. The artists typically don't see much anyway. Just ask Courtney Love.

I'm not saying don't pay. It is still the right thing to do. The point is that until the upside down music industry is turned rightside up, the "starving artists" out there are going to stay that way. The RIAA has enslaved the musician and is threatening the listener.

There is a better way. I have the business plan and I'm looking for funding! (aren't we all...) When it rolls out, Apple, MS, Real, and the "big 4" producers will be eating dust! Not mine, the artists' !!!

6. I've worked on a volunteer basis for organizations that had donated software from MS. The software was: Windows 2000 Server, Windows 2000 Professional and Office 2000. The license provided had absolutely no strings, it was "FPP" software (aka, full packaged product, aka retail boxed stuff).

If my understanding of the whole line of XP software is even close to correct, then Windows 2000, Office 2000, etc. are the last of the MS products for which this scenario would be possible. Aren't users now required to register the software online and accept an ongoing upgrade schedule as part of the system license? Is this free also? And if the NPO grows in the next year and adds another 10 workstations, is it still $0? Or if the NPO is led to understand that MS is willing to donate pretty much anything they need, only to come back in a couple of years and threaten to audit every system for illegal copies? Check out what happened in Philadelphia. Or the piracy truce [news.com] from a couple of years ago. Each illegal piece of software brings a max fine of $150,000. Not to mention that in 3 years MS will attempt to force you to upgrade to Longhorn, which doesn't have a prayer of running on the eBay'd hardware you already have. They realized in the last few years that people were deciding not to move to a newer Windows unless there was a compelling reason, which for a large number of shops there wasn't. Hence the Licensing 6.0.

Bottom line is that yes, the labor and ongoing support costs are going to be comparable for a MS or Linux shop, but you've got to look at the long haul. So look at the out-of-pocket for the initial acquisition, but also look at operating, maintenance and other costs in 3 - 5 years.