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U.S. Imposes Big Tariffs On Korean Chipmakers
dipfan writes "This is serious - the U.S. government has decided to levy steep import tariffs on South Korean computer chips (and Vietnamese catfish). The result is a 44 percent tariff on DRAM semiconductors made by Hynix. The case was brought by Micron Technology on the grounds that the South Koreans were receiving unfair subsidies. Hynix says the tariff is 'outrageous', and the South Koreans plan to appeal to the World Trade Organisation."
Other links:
ft.com
eetuk
ZDNET
e-insite.net
PS: who else would love to shove their piece up into the Asian chick on the âoeInsight by WebTrendsâ AD that keeps popping up? Also, that âoeOracle makes Linux unbreakableâ AD is annoying. They ain't do shit but make a partnership with Red Hat.
Micron's lobbying wouldn't have anything to do with Micron posting a loss last quarter, would it? Nah. Of course not.
ft
eetuk
ZDNET
e-insite
Bush should be trying to stimulate the tech economy. Instead, he's killing the US$ to historic lows, and now this? Pretty weak!
Demand free trade to 3rd world countries, close the internal market. Nothing to see here.
Gee, thanks. I hated paying $20 for a stick of PC2100, I'd much rather spend another 44% for the same unit...
~S
If the U.S. is going to get itself involved in the WTO, it should learn to play by it's own rules. Free trade? Or free trade only when it's good for us?
Because focusing on SK makes money in this respect. Focusing on North Korea tends to cost money (and potentially lives).
Sombody took a cue from the dorks trying to destroy the Canadian lumber industry, I see.
Korea, welcome to the club.
------------------
"nosce te ipsum"
------------------
-:
MakeTradeFair.com
Just another example of the hypocritical U.S Government. They constantly scream they are all for free trade yet when things arn't going their way, they the scales in their favour. Hopefully this won't spark a trade war........
as per US tariff trade law. Just the same way that US steel and lumber tariffs to US steel companies and US lumber companies respectively. Basically this means that the comsumer pays for the inefficiency of these firms, and those same inefficient firms get rewarded for their lack of productivity. Wacky system. Let he with the most lobbying money win.
I see that the U.S. government is continuing it's slide into the corporate welfare government. Corporations don't need welfare and protection. If they can't compete, get the fuck out or find a new business plan.
Maybe that means that Micron needs put a plant in Korea or something. I don't know. But as a consumer I want the lower prices, it makes me want to go and buy more memory. I don't see my government acting in my favor here.
sri
well all I can say is I'm glad I own stock in MU. :) have a nice day
This gives Micron carte blanche to raise their prices by 44%, which while it may save a few jobs in Idaho, will ultimately cost even more jobs at US companies that buy memory (think the likes of Dell and so forth).
Tariffs BAD! Free trade GOOD!
These are the wonders that show how god damn corrupt we really are. Anyone with the slightest understanding of economics understands the problem: yeah, all you people loose ... but Micron gains, so they lobby. It's a shame that in 2003 we still fight wars and impose tariffs. No hope left...
I mean, c'mon... he deserves it!
US government imposes tariffs due to foreign subsidised business selling into the US market.
Pot calls kettle black.
The US government is the worst offender on Earth with subsidising industries to kill foreign competition.
Is the free market being peddled by the US so hard to implement on their own shores? Do they hate others using their own tactics against them?
This tariff has been in the air for Hynix for a few months now. They're getting it easier than originally proposed: the tariff was originally 57%. Also, the US is not the only one sticking it to the Koreans: the European Commission smacked them with a 37% duty too.
In Soviet Russia, Jesus asks: "What Would You Do?"
Why? So they can be fried instead of eaten raw?
"And this is my boy, Sherman. Speak, Sherman." "Hello." "Good boy."
All Micron Technology and Crucial memory. Micron must not have expected the Bush admistration to so blindly apply such a backstab. This should show other ppl not to sue ppl (RIAA type).
I don't suppose too much of the US computer industry will be happy about this, seeing as it is bound to drive up prices when the sector is on the edge...
"Both the catfish ruling and the computer chip decision will not become final until the U.S. International Trade Commission rules on July 31 on whether American companies are being significantly harmed by the foreign competition."
A bit early to be worrying, but if I couldn't spell "organization" I might have problems reading as well.
Exactly the same thing happened with Canadian softwood lumber even though we have a supposed free trade agreement. It'll go to the WTO, the S. Koreans will win but that'll take years. In that time, their industry is crippled.
WTO's contact page
Although this will result in somewhat higher prices in the short term it should result in the long term viability of the market. Hynix has been illegally propped up by their government many times and their ability to sell products below cost just weakens the entire sector. Add to that the fact that the union blackmailed the company into not accepting a takeover bid from a company that might have actually turned em around and I doubt that the WTO will do much to the Americans.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
I can barelly afford to feed my lepar fish heads once a week as it is! Now what am I left to do? My evil empire will surelly crumble without a mostly-fed army of lepars!!
Isn't this, like, the fourth time (at least) that Micron has gone whining to the Feds about their products being undercut by foreign competitors? The first time I recall them doing this (back in the mid 1980's), their DRAMs were $#!+. At least this time, they have a product that's well worth buying.
I always wondered if the protective tariffs gave them the breathing space they needed to get their asses in gear. So I don't know quite how I feel about this.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
Welcome to the invisible corruption. The consumer now supports micron to be inefficient, and looses out big time. If Korea was subsidizing their DRAM makers, we should be happy: That would mean their tax payers are paying for us to have cheap memory. However, since Micron gains with the tariffs, the gains are concentrated to one company and they lobby (probably pay) government officials for the tariffs. Such a shame, because it happens much more than we know about; this is on slashdot because it is about DRAM. If only everyone could see ...
Unless you intend travelling overseas in the near future (and that puts you in a minority of Americans) you should be putting your (American-made) party hats on and celebrating this end to an imbalanced economy.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Good post, fucked up the links, but he re-posted them.
of the 190 billion in subsidies the American Government will be passing out to farmers over the next ten years.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
Korea makes a huge amount of different kind of embedded electronics. For example, they export a huge number of the ATMs in use in the United States. If I remember correctly (and I may not) Chung Ho electronics makes a big perecentage of them. Glory brand ATMs are also manufactured in Korea, IIRC.
You *will* be screwed by this ruling, regardless of where you live. Prices for various electronics will be going up.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
Samsung,
Samsung,
sell me some dram please.
I use Samsung,
and I pay just the price that I please.
There are no lousy tariffs,
to mess with me or the Sheriff.
So up the price,
for Hynix rice,
and I'll go on my way like the brezzeeeeee!
Bush should be focusing on keeping our jobs from going to india, whats korea have to do with that?
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Here are more details on the US tariff subsidy law. (reprint from Wall Street Journal).
Better hoard the catfish? The article says it is all false advertising. Actually, "catfish" is not getting a tariff, but a type of fish called "basa." How relevant...
You *will* be screwed by this ruling, regardless of where you live. Prices for various electronics will be going up
Even up here in Canada?
This might lower prices as the electronics companies try to unload their excess inventories that were aimed at the US.
Jason
ProfQuotes
Micron is NOT inefficient, in fact they are one of the more healthy memory makers, it's just that they can't compete with a government propped business that dumps chips below production costs. The EU is not very happy about Hynix either so it's not just the American's protecting a weak company.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
but isn't this essentially what caused the Boston Tea Party. I know that the markets have to be regulated to some extent, but the government should not be allowed to grant a monopoly or break up a monopoly (unless it was formed illegally) that was built from the ground. And that is basically what they are doing, even if it doesn't seem like it now but it is a real possibility in the future.
WTF? This is what's going on.
Why is everyone siding with the subsidized competition? If the Korean government is giving money to Hynix, then they are clearly not playing by the rules of free trade--so why should Micron? Until the Koreans get in line and stop giving taxpayer dollars to their own corporations so they can dump products here*, there is no reason for the US to let them get away with it. The US is only counteracting Korea's unfair practices until it stops this action. I applaud this move. It will force the Korean government to get in line with the global free market, at which point, the tariff will be dropped, and the market will be free to correct itself.
* just like Japan did with automakers back in the 1980s, look what happened when they finally gave in to free trade--their market had to correct itself
Whew... good thing i'm done buying computer equipment for the next 5 years!
:o(
Sorry everyone else
If it makes you feel any better i got bit by the capacitor-blowup situation no less than 3 times in the last year
What did South Korea do to deserve this? They must have signed a Free Trade agreement with the USA. Just like Canada, the USA drops a heavy tarriff on the product or resource they can't compete with. When the USA does this enough times and piss off all of the world and the world refuses to deal with them, their empire will crumble.
Got something to sell cheaper than the USA? Does your country have laws that contrevene what the USA laws have? You MUST be a terrorist!!
From Cringely's "Accidental Empires":
In 1975, Japan's Ministry for International Trade and Industry had organized JApan's leading chip makers into two groups-- NEC-Toshiba and Fujitsu-Hitachi-Mitsubishi-- to challenge the United States for the 64K DRAM business. They won. By 1985, these two groups has 90 percent of the U.S. market for DRAMs. American companies like Intel, which had started out in the DRAM business, quit making the chips because they weren't profitable, cutting world DRAM production capacity as they retired. To make matters worse, the United States Department of Commerce accused the Asian DRAM makers of dumping-- selling their memory chips in America at less than it cost to produce them. The Japanese companies cut a deal with the United States government that restricted their DRAM distribution in America-- at a time when we had no other reliable DRAM sources. Big mistake. Memory supplies dropped just as memory demand rose [OS/2 had created a need for RAM] , and the classic supply-demand effect was an increase in DRAM prices, which more than doubled in a few months. Toshiba, which was nearly the only company making 1 megabit DRAM chips for a while, earned more than $1 billion in profits on its DRAM business in 1989, in large part because of the United States government.
Just like the way that the courts award judgment money to the to the winnig plantiffs instead of collecting that ill-gotten gain as tax money... This tariff is going in because Hynix didn't play fairly under the rules of International trade, and that hurt Micron.
And no, this isn't just an American thing, Hynix is getting called for the same foul in the EU too...
Actually it is an example of pig headedness. If the US market breeds unfair competition, then it should rethink its business model instead of imposing large and/or illegal tarrifs.
Did you know that the US thinks the Canadian Wheat Board subsidized farmers off the books, to sink American farmers, and so Canadian farmers are being unfairly abused by the American market.
Or how about the illegal [as the WTO ruled] tarrif on Softwood lumber?
Or how about the Mad Cow related Canadian beef ban, when the cow has ties to Montana, USA?
Double standard? You bet.
Why slashdot? Why not?
Hynix announces high volume trade agreement with major EU computer retail chains. Maybe. If the US doesn't want cheap good stuff, other countries will be happy to take it.
This sort of carry-on is why many countries no longer give a toss about "free trade" agreements with the US - they're not worth the paper they're written on if the gubment feels so inclined.
Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
You know I used to think GATT was pretty cool.
Then I thought WTO was ok, if it just weren't for TRIPS.
Now I think the WTO might make sense if killed TRIPS excluded the USA and Europe from the club.
Yeah, what was the point of all this free trade talk?
Vietnam subsidising Catfish?? Sure...
No, but you shouldn't claim to participate in something that you clearly do not stand for. I guess this is what some would refer to as, "bringing integridy back to the White House" laff
http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares
Which begs the question, if I go to Canada and buy said electronics, what do I have to do to bring them back to the US (legally)?
Ok I see a lot of people seeing this as a very bad thing, but I'm not so sure. The fact is the Korean government broke some international buisness laws and without that, Hynix would already be out of buisness.
Hopefully this trend will continue so places where they pay their workers $5 a day or give huge illegal donations to a dying company will end so not all our American tech companies don't leave the US. I have seen a disturbing trend in companies leaving the US to take advantage of other countrys less strick workers benifits and rights.
Although I might just be totally biased as I used to live in Boise and have many friends who work at Micron, although Samsung is more than enough competition left for Micron in the dram industry.
Remember when it used to be that the best products were born out of competition? Of course the US Government doesn't play by these rules, instead they support Corporate Welfare which is an oxymoron. What next? Tariffs on Japanese products? A tax on better built and cheaper products imported from other countries? Why that would be very Patrioticâ. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer...
I am just wondering why all pro-free trade comments are being modded up and all pro-tarriff comments are being modded down? Doesn't sound very balanced to me, there are benefits on both sides, but the modderation of it is not promoting debate, it is promoting winning on one side through censorship, even if they are readable comments still, they are hidden to most.
The WTO is always rules against protectionist tarrifs and environmental laws. I dont' have the exact statistics with me, but in an INSANELY high number of cases, the WTO has ruled in favor of the country issuing the complaint. Off the top of my head, i'd say its around 90%, but I'm sure someone out there can find the exact number.
I can't see any reason why this would be different. It seems highly likely that the WTO will rule in favor of Korea blocking this particular tariff.
I'm torn on this. I despise the WTO and how they have the power to to step in and tell our democratically elected government what to do, but this might be the one time I'll be glad for their interfering. I gots to have my computer parts on the cheap. . .
Candian softwood lumber, European steel and now this?
I guess I'll just have to boycott Intel and AMD now. Time to pickup a Dragon chip.
will logically lead to a lower supply.
This logically translates into Microsoft programming a new version of Notepad that doesn't require at least 32megs of RAM to work properly.
Why slashdot? Why not?
Did you know that the US thinks the Canadian Wheat Board subsidized farmers off the books, to sink American farmers, and so Canadian farmers are being unfairly abused by the American market.
Even some Canadian farmers, mainly from Alberta and Saskatchewan (where most of the wheat is produced), think the Wheat Board is an anticompetitive, socialist, market-rigging bureaucracy. When they tried to sell their wheat to Americans at market prices, they were punished.
Canada has many socialist, anti-market bureaucracies and rules set up to unfairly benefit Canadian "businesses", when in reality many of them are sad, pathetic copies of good, quality American businesses. When exposed to market forces, many of them fail. Just take Dominion Motors, for example. Wait, you can't, they failed in the face of competition from American automakers. Look at their cable television--full of channels that might as well be American, except for the pathetic "Canadian content". Here's a secret: the most popular shows there are American-made.
Or how about the illegal [as the WTO ruled] tarrif on Softwood lumber?
Same problem as above--Canada's socialist, anti-market subsidies propped up softwood lumber producers so they could dump their products in the US. Just like in the case being discussed, the US applied a corrective measure. If the Canadian industry can't handle a little competition, that's not our problem.
Double standard? You bet.
Yep. Leftists and socialists such as yourself think it's peachy for every country but the US to prop up uncompetitive industries, using far more nationalist propaganda than anything you'll ever see in US markets. But if the big, bad US of A, which probably sent soldiers to fight for your freedom to bitch at some point, tries to defend its own markets, oh, what a monster.
Hypocrite.
I guess Europe has double standards too, since they slapped the same tariff on Hynix.
Huh, what....?
As a Candaian living by our forest industry region this sounds exactly like the crap the americans gave us on our softwood.
I never realized how bad net porn was till I broke my arm
LOL
I'm with you brother, brothers.. help us out.
Mod parent.
While I am an avid free-trade advocate, I must back the US position on this one. Hynix has been bailed out a number of times by Seoul, and they've recieved enormous tax breaks.
The 44% tarriff is excessive, but that's the whole point: it's a slap in the face to wake the Koreans up. Eventually, this will get watered down in the WTO, but not until the same WTO pushes Seoul to tone down it's own corporate capitalism efforts.
I see all the standard anti-US rhetoric is in full swing already, so I won't broach that one....
davejenkins.com |
Rules of International trade? Ha! What book are your quoting from? The United States' tariffs are consistantly ruled as illegal by the WTO, and they are almost always reversed (after a number of years). The WTO also recently declared that the act of giving the tariff to the US competitor(s) amounts to an unfair subsidy unto itself. But the US is a proverbial 800 lb gorilla, and no country can do anything about it. This is not a win/win for american consumers - they directly pay the price of the tariff in the form of increased prices. So who is being "protected" by these tariffs exactly?
Brother, I found it for you.
Not much... Just declare it when you cross the border. Same thing that I do whenever I head home for Christmas (from California) to see my family.
:)
Depending on how much you buy, and how long you stay, (and depending on how you go and how busy the border crossing is) you may not have to pay any duty at all.
And, as an added bonus, you can even apply for a rebate on the GST, since you're not a Canadian resident. Of course, I've never bothered to do this, since the 7% wasn't that much, given the conversion rate I was getting, and it's like a mail-in rebate.
-- Joe
gee.....an organization that is more anti-american that the human rights councel constantly rules against the US.
if a communist country was opposed entrence into the WTO by the US, the WTO would STILL vote that country in even though the WTO consists of only capitalist economies.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
After all, did not Unix run from ram? THen is it not a deritive work of the SCO corporation?
If any of you use RAM you could be liability for copyright infringment. Better give SCO some money.
http://saveie6.com/
Dear comrade,
You truly embody the spirit of our socialist cause. You are an inspiration to all the peace-loving people of the world to continue their struggle against the capitalist oppressors. I hope you will continue to join us in support of Marxism-Leninism and Mao Zedong Thought.
This is causing quite alot of economic damage.
http://saveie6.com/
America is the greatest country! Love it or leave it.
Before you know it these crazy liberals will be telling me that campaing contributions might have had something to do with it.
Nah.
http://saveie6.com/
But if the big, bad US of A, which probably sent soldiers to fight for your freedom to bitch at some point...
More like, "the big, bad USA which has probably sent bombs to kill you at some point".
and the South Koreans plan to appeal to the World Trade Organisation
whether this is a good thing or not, me, i'm personally opposed to tariffs, but, i dislike far more a foreign entity telling having control of any kind over our trade policies. i don't want foreign governments telling us what we can or cannto do. period. loss of sovreignty is a far worse thing. and before the flames start flying, please remember this: it is specically our freedoms, i.e., the first ammendment and the fourth and fifth that would be some of the first to be thrown out should otgher nations have a say in our laws.
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
Who in your expert opinion should be the arbitrator of such trade disputes? The US? Get real - it's a global economy.
You talk big, but it is hot air.
"Same problem as above--Canada's socialist, anti-market subsidies propped up softwood lumber producers so they could dump their products in the US. Just like in the case being discussed, the US applied a corrective measure. If the Canadian industry can't handle a little competition, that's not our problem."
You are forgetting completely about NAFTA, which your REPUBLICAN government endorsed and agreed to. If you can't handle a little thing called a contract, then don't agree to it!
Why slashdot? Why not?
More like, "the big, bad USA which has probably sent bombs to kill you at some point".
And which country might you be from? Canada? Haven't fought that country since the British Empire backed out of there. France? Saved your asses in WWII. Germany? If it weren't for us, you'd be saluting Hitler or speaking Russian right now. US? I bet you're some spoiled college kid on mommy and daddy's dole, thinking Marxism is the shit oh can you pass the Frappucion.
You make me sick.
South Korea harbours weapons of mass competition.
Must.... Des...troy...
I think it's great that the U.S. finally gave Hynix the boot. The S. Korean government has been keeping them alive and competing with our companies, even though Hynix has failed to produce a profit and would basically go in the red if it weren't for all the government money keeping it alive.
Companies like that deserve to die - if you're not producing a profit, and you're causing U.S. companies to lose money, why should the U.S. continue to allow you to do business with us? It's our semiconductor industry vs. the entire south korean government - that's bad for the people who work at micron and other semiconductor companies. Think about the people trying to make a living here, for pete's sake.
It's hard enough dealing with domestic competitors, let alone an entire foreign government. 100% tariff would do just fine too.
Funny how W. keeps doing the works of his father, huh?
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
Where does Micron have its chip fab these days?
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
You are forgetting completely about NAFTA, which your REPUBLICAN government endorsed and agreed to. If you can't handle a little thing called a contract, then don't agree to it!
I'm sorry, who broke that contract first? Canada? Oh, but it's an opportunity to bash the US again, no matter how in the wrong the other side was in the first place.
Sorry. Try again. Until Canada is ready to play by the rules of free trade, the US should not bend over and play UN to the socialist state's Iraq. The US is free to apply corrective measures until the offending government decides to play by the rules of the free market again, at which point, the true cost of its actions will be felt. The longer they continue to prop up failing industries, the worse the pain will be.
" If it weren't for us, you'd be saluting Hitler or speaking Russian right now."
And just what did the rest of the world do to deserve the priviledge of saluting a draft dodging, coke using, lying, moron?
Why slashdot? Why not?
Try to compare Micron with Samsung.
"If it weren't for us, you'd be saluting Hitler"
I invoke Godwin's law.
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
This tariff is a tax on the American consumer. The federal government has just raised the cost of a product by 44%. There is no rational economic justification for this tax. If the South Korean government wants to spend money to subsidize a company that is the problem of the South Korean tax payer, not the U.S. federal government. The government is interfering in the market in order to subsidize a politically well connected company. They are no better than the South Korean government. The best the U.S. federal government can do, would be to remove its military from South Korea and force the South Korean government to bear the expense of maintaining a military to defend itself from North Korea. In that scenario the South Korean government would have to decide if they should be spending their money subsidizing companies or training an adequate military.
Stuart Eichert
- "In 2000, Korea was the United Statesâ(TM) sixth largest export market. In 2000, two-way merchandise trade between the United States and Korea reached record levels, totaling $68.2 billion, compared with $54.3 billion for 1999."
- 8% tariff on US automobile imports into Korea
- 317% import tariff on US potato products
From the ZDNet article, "Semiconductors are South Korea's biggest export and generated $16.6 bn in overseas sales in 2002. DRAM exports represent 35 percent of total semiconductor exports."
From a CIA report, South Korea's total exports for 2002 was $159.2 billion.
This implies that ~10% of the Korean economy is in semiconductor sales alone. Recall that recently South Korea is warming up to North Korea, and if we add that Pres. Bush has already put North Korea on notice regarding their weapon exports, we should not be surpised that the government would penalize the friend of your enemy.
My personal beliefs are that that tariffs are bad on both imports and exports, but after reading the report on how much Korea taxes US exports, I don't pity them.
Interestingly enough, "In spring 2000, Korea was elevated to the Special 301 "priority watch list" as a result of continuing concerns regarding inadequate IPR enforcement, lack of protection for clinical drug test data, lack of full retroactive protection for pre-existing copyrighted works and pharmaceutical patents, problematic amendments to Koreaâ(TM)s Copyright Act and Computer Program Protection Act, lack of coordination between Korean health and IPR authorities on drug product approvals for marketing, and continued counterfeiting of consumer products."
Steel tarriffs. US steel manufacturers weren't competitive, and it was much cheaper to import steel from elsewhere (eg, Russia) than to buy it from US makers.
The Dubya solution to this problem? Slap heavy tarriffs on imported steel.
So much for fair trade, a free market and a unhindered economy.
It's not like that's the only example either. US lumber mills are less productive and more expensive than their Canadian counterparts, who've spent considerable millions becoming more efficient and cost effective.
The reward for this Canadian efficiency? Tarriffs on soft-wood lumber.
So much for NAFTA.
Opinion on Dubya is heavily polarised (you either love him or hate him and I'm not going to get into that debate here) but even his staunchest supporters would have a hard time arguing that he's an advocate of free trade.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
I've been looking for a comprehensive introductory site on the issues facing small economies today.
People don't realize the damage some of thoses corporations do. I bear witness to this issue.
The trade agreement with England put historically challedged lands ( many with little natural resources and independent for only 20 years or so) in favor for a less than 2% of the British banana market specifically. US on behalf of the Dole/Chiquita brought England to the WTO and won. The result today is that some of these islands are losing 3 to 10% of the GDP annually in a trend that economist are saying won't stop soon.
Current administration has turned their backs on this.
Now when those countries turn to opium and marijauna growing to survive, global law enforcement will now spend and order of magnitude more than the approximate $5 million or so the protected banana market was worth.
Protectionism is one thing. But in the global market there are players who can not even begin to compete due the natural disadvantages. Eg. amount of land since some of those countries are under 300 sq. miles big, no oil, or precious metals etc.
I don't believe the current administration's position, ie. 'life's tough' is a suitable response to this issue.
Based on upvotes, Ageism is the only "-ism" Slashdotters care about and think isn't SJW
And just what did the rest of the world do to deserve the priviledge of saluting a draft dodging, coke using, lying, moron?
No one's making you salute the elected president of the United States, but maybe you should thank the veterans of the American army, navy, and other armed forces for at least some of the freedom you enjoy today.
You're just exposing yourself as another America-hater, unable to admit that this country has done anything good for other people, while taking any old opportunity to bash the country and the people. What does Bush have to do with how the US armed forces helped save Europe and the Pacific Rim over fifty years ago? Nothing, but it lets you regain your feeling of superiority by bashing the president, relying on insinuations and falsehoods made by other America-haters.
to +1 funny!
"Not mentioning the number of fantastic things that Bush has done"
name 3
"The man brought much needed integrity back to the presidential position"
um the alcoholic, cocain sniffing, daddy get me a cush position so I don't have to go to war, lying war monger has brought back integrity? please.
"He is a strong leader in the time of terrorism,
of all the people who have been in office when this country was in a time of crisis, he has been the worse.
"Give the guy a break."
he is president of the United States of America, he can have a break when he is no longer in office.
Nobody gave Clinton a break and all he did was get a blow job. was that wrong? I would say so, but is it as bad as the corporate dealing Bush has done?
No.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Protectionists win this round. What have they done about those stupid steel tariffs?
But, as I've said, it's no news. Recently, U.S. Gov. has put huge barriers against steel from others, more competitive countries (Brazil, E.U., etc.).
U.S. preaches capitalism to the world, and, by the way, I have nothing against that. But, when others show themselves better than U.S. in some tiny economic niche, all the courageous, competitive dogma goes away and "protective tarrifs" come in place.
Wasn't big american companies also subsidized? Airlines, Aerospace companies, etc...? What is so different with South Koreans?
Suppose that S.Korea retaliates against the sanction. All the US needs to do is say "BOO!" in the general direction of N.Korea's Dear Leader Kim Jong Il and the economic climate suddenly turns very dark for the South. And there is no way to directly blame the US, as N.Korea has already been labeled a member of the Axis of Evil.
Unless of courzse you get to keep your job, in which case, you're making out.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Look at it this way: As long as the Koreans are giving their taxpayer dollars to their own corporations so they can dump products here at below the cost to make them, the U.S. consumer wins! Sure, it might hurt business for U.S. based manufacturers of those products (in this case, RAM), but honestly, I don't care.
If you can't compete, for *any* reason, switch products or production methods. Heck, if I was a U.S. RAM manufacturer getting clobbered by people dumping RAM on my market at below cost, I'd buy as much of the stuff up as I could. Why not? If I bought enough, I could prevent it from easily making it on the market for the average consumer to buy, and I could just relabel and resell the stuff at a mark-up later!
The bottom line is, their citizens are helping pay for our citizens' RAM sticks. It's stupid to slap a tarriff on this and try to stop it from happening.
After reading through this thread, I think a few people in this forum need to take a look at the news from services other than those based in the US. There is a whole world of perspective out there that should be considered. That is not to say that there are not people here that open to other perspectives on issues and take the time to get the full story.
So you are trying to convince us that Canada has the WTO in it's pocket, and is paying them to rule the USA out of line?
Yeah, sure, give us a break!
The CWB was around when NAFTA was signed, and so was the lumber industry.
Why slashdot? Why not?
it causes economic damage to us, but it helps the global economy to allow the best (and cheapest) people for the job to do it.
let everyone find their niche, and the world will be a much much better place in the long run.
fuck this shit.
What's good for the steel manufacturers (high tarriffs on foreign steel imports) isn't good for steel consumers.
Why should construction companies, etc have to pay an artificially inflated price for a vital commodity? Why should a shipyard on either coast have to support a steel mill in the Midwest?
What you forget is that by making the US steel manufacturers more competitive, you're making US steel consumers less competitive. Overnight, these steel tarriffs have made it harder for US shipbuilders to compete in the global market. The same is true of other industries too.
So, in essence, Dubya is robbing Peter to pay Paul in the hope that he can secure Paul's vote in the future and that Peter won't notice.
Yay for free trade!
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Integrity? By lying to go to war?
Besides, your post does nothing to show Bush isn't a hypocrate when it comes to free trade which is what the above poster was pointing out.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
And yes, the US is focusing on the DPRK a lot more now, as they are pursuing nuclear weapons, so yes, they're both getting their equal share of "focusing on"
You don't see the FDA slamming down on southern producers who label Bullfish as Catsish, why would we unfairly require the vietnamese to make a distinction between their not-quite catfish and our not-quite catfish?
Ths US Should Impose a TAX on INDIAN SOFTWARE/
Best Buy can have you arrested
And yet the "gob-ment" still can't bring themselves to tax outsourced, offshore labor so that maybe (just maybe), Americans can find jobs again. Crazy mofos.
if you're not producing a profit, and you're causing U.S. companies to lose money, why should the U.S. continue to allow you to do business with us?
Hmmm. Let's outlaw the U.S. Post Office then. Seriously, does this bit of extremism apply to U.S. companies that aren't turning a profit, and competing with other U.S. companies? Or just foreign companies?
For that matter, what makes a U.S. company a U.S. company? Most of the big corps are technically out of The Bahamas or similar countries who've found a nice little niche by shielding companies from the tax men of the countries in which they do business.
I'm no economist, but I think it's pretty obvious that whatever governmental assistance Seoul provides Hynix is pretty much being met tit-for-tat, and then some, with this tarriff. Not surprising that Washington would choose this tactic, though, since they've already imposed tarriffs on Canadian lumber and European steel. While these tarriffs certainly protect American jobs, a cynical view is that the imposition of these tarriffs is not so much about protecting our economy, it's more about protecting electoral votes in Pennsylvania. Though that argument doesn't make a lot of sense when applied to Washington timber. It does make sense in Micron's home state(s) of Idaho (and Virgina, after acquisition of Toshiba's facilities there).
Political cynicism aside, one thing I did learn (Bueller? Bueller?) is that the Hawley-Smoot Tarriff Act was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back and led to the Great Depression. Is saving the White House worth a repeat of that?
Finally, you end with the statement "It's hard enough dealing with domestic competitors..." Which domestic competitors are you talking about? Who else makes DRAM in the USA? I was under the impression that Micron was it.
To sum up: I guess we should go ahead and slap a huge tarriff on Airbus as well! Because surely the American consumer will benefit when Boeing, protected by exorbitant tarriffs, can charge the airlines whatever they please for a new 737.
"What does Bush have to do with how the US armed forces helped save Europe "
Then what did Hitler have to do with the CWB?
And the way you speak makes me think you aren't one of the 70%+ Americans who didn't vote for the Republicans in the last election. Does everyone who speaks against your country, in your country, become labled an America hater? I suppose it is more advanced than imprisioning people with views that oppose the government, but it isn't much better in spirit.
You've already exposed yourself as someone who konws nothing of world trade. In fact I bet you couldn't tell me an approximation of any currency's exchange rate with the US Dollar, without looking it up first.
Why slashdot? Why not?
Looks like their economy is going down the toilet anyway.
On the other hand, I have no patience for Koreans. 95% of my SPAM comes from Korea.
So either way really
Man. Are you lost.
The US is one of the world's largest manufacturers and exporters. Why do you think most large US companies have sales offices all over the world. Think IBM, Microsoft, Oracle. Equipment manufacturers like Caterpillar. Telecom like ATT. All these firms bring in a large amount of money from foreign countries.
Get this straight. The problem is not that small countries rely on the US for handouts. The problem is unfair trade policies that actualy hinder these countries ability to compete.
Policies like demanding they open their markets while protecting yours.
Based on upvotes, Ageism is the only "-ism" Slashdotters care about and think isn't SJW
The size of your competitors' subsidies is not an accurate measure of "efficiency."
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
realize that SK refuses to accept american imports and they want to export all day long to the US. so fair play sucks when you dont want to get along.
The South Koreans plan to appeal to the World Trade Organisation.
... so?! Last time I checked, America, for better or worse, does whatever the hell it damn well pleases. We didn't need NATO's permission to go bomb the crap out of Iraq, and we sure as hell don't need the WTO's permission to levy tariffs on U.S. imports!!!
Ummm
Cyde Weys Musings - Scrutinizing the inscrutable
Micron most likely has a point on this one. Although labor is certainly much lower there, it's not like the equiptment is any cheaper there. And the number of employees a FAB has in operations is typically pretty low. The cost per Mb of Memory out of a Asian Fab when you take shipping into account shouldn't be all that much less than a US FAB, yet it is. Drastically less usually.
You quite honestly don't care because you don't work for a RAM company and the economic effects won't be felt for decades. No offense, but your short-sightedness and greediness is not exactly a good thing for our country.
A foreign company is getting government help so it can produce at costs better than their comparative advantages. This distorts a market in which producers produced in line with their respective comparative advantages.
In order to bring the price of the foreign good back in line with the comparative advantange of the foreign producer, the importing government imposes a countervailing duty. When implemented correctly a countervailing duty does two things: It restores the market to it's ideal state, and the foreign country's citizens pay some of the local government taxes.
Think about it. Korean taxpayers pay their government money that goes to a korean corporation. That corporation pays export duties to the US (forcing them to compete in line with their comparative advantages). Those export duties pay for governmental costs in the US. End result - Koreans pay US taxes.
The Korean citizens should be complaining to their governmen.
I see so many people here falling into the contra-positive of the broken window fallacy it is scaring me.
There is a shop with a store front window. A vandal comes by and throws a rock right through the window. At first the store owner is disstressed about this. However, he then realizes even though he has to pay for a new window and installer. The window guy will in turn hire a plumber, who will buy a sandwich, the chef will buy a microwave, the consumer electronics guy will buy something from his shop. It will be great for everyone. Accordingly, he decides we need more vandals to make the world a better place. You heard a lot of this weak argument during 9/11. Although, 9/11 is more complex since it involved huge sums of insurance money, reinsurers, etc.
What is wrong with this argument? Well, the answer is simple the store owner would have spent his money on something else beside the window. While the window guy is certainly happy, the refridgerator guy is now seriously bumming that he didn't get a sale. Or let's say he bought the window instead of shoes, the shoe guy would be bumming.
Now I have seen several people arguing the South Korean government subsidizing memory is bad for the United States. This the broken window fallacy in REVERSE. When someone gives you something it is a net positive. It's better than if you had made it yourself. You now have money you can spend on other things. While it might be hard for micron its GOOD for computer users. They will have more money to spend on new nVidia GeForce 5800FX Ultra Deluxe Turbo Gold Millenium Edition cards or whatever.
Remember, other peoples governments giving us money (even in the form of memory) is a good thing for our economy. Don't be led into this fallacy that its more important to keep our money "internal." The greedy strategy tends yield an amazingly near optimal solution. Government intervention will always lead something ineffecient taking place.
Yes, there is the case where there could be a strategic move to lower prices to force out a competitor and in the long term raise prices. However, this market has way too many firms for any one firm to gain that kind of control.
I would much rather have more money rather than letting the U.S. government and Micron have it. As a side note, luckily they didn't implement quotas which would have just given Hynix the ability to sell at a higher price...
You won't have to pay any more duties on them than normal... nobody's going to check your new laptop for Hynix-made parts. Afterall, they're such a small percentage of the overall device that skipping such a collection is nothing more than a small error compared to the grand scheme of things... the point of this is to tax the bulk shipments of chips, not individual chips that are already within a finished product.
If your new laptop was made in the USA or any of the EU contries, the tarrif was already collected when the chips were imported as chips there... no need to double-collect.
If the machine was made in Canada and the chips imported directly to Canada, then your answering machine is slipping through the cracks. However, it's not worth worrying about just one... so nobody does. Besides, in all likelyhood Canada's going to join the rest of the world and slap the same tariff against Hynix there too when they get around to it.
If a Canadian company were to start using untariffed Hynix chips to start sending large numbers of laptops accross the boarder undercutting competition because they have a cheaper source of RAM chips than the rest of the world, then they'd find a tarrif slapped on them too for dumping products....
That's pretty funny.
Baseline magazine profiled US Steel a few months ago. Thanks to robotics and other automation, it takes 2 workers to produce a quanity of steel that 35 Koreans produce. They also make the steel for at 1/5 of the cost of the Koreans.
So why has US Steel been near bankruptcy for years? Pension & Healthcare costs (many government mandated), which consume nearly 80% of revenues.
If you want the trappings of a civilized society, (things like disability insurance, healthcare, pensions) there is a cost associated with that.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Homer: Lisa, a guy who's got lots of ivory is less likely to hurt Stampy than a guy whose ivory supplies are low.
-- Simpsons [1F15] "Bart Gets an Elephant"
Carthago delenda est!
...hijacking a truck full of the chips, selling them on the black market, and delivering the money to the Koreans as they rightfully deserve it. Tariffs? What tariffs? That's only your imagination... Just don't go around advertising the fact that you've got the one Hynix in your area code.
Then what did Hitler have to do with the CWB?
Nothing, but the mindset that allows people to bash the US for defending its own industries against the unfair trade practices of other countries is the same one that allows for the cognitive dissonance of complaining about American military intervention while benefitting from that same intervention, sometimes repeatedly. This is hypocrisy, and it must be pointed out.
You, OTOH, went straight from WWII to bashing the president.
GREAT! Now you can buy more American goods!
Canada's socialist, anti-market subsidies propped up softwood lumber producers so they could dump their products in the US
Hmmm, could it be that Canada just has more harvestable softwood lumber and a more efficent lumber industry? That's what the WTO concluded in their peliminary ruling. Who would have thought? Trees in Canada? Next thing you know, they'll be taking over the good, quality American maple syrup and beaver pelt industries.
Leftists and socialists such as yourself think it's peachy for every country but the US to prop up uncompetitive industries, using far more nationalist propaganda than anything you'll ever see in US markets.
Perhaps, but if the US agrees to agreements like NAFTA and claims to defer international trade disputes to bodies like the WTO, they should honor them. When tariffs are applied in response to lobbyists from American interests -- especially when they are contrary to precedent already set by the WTO -- it hardly appears that the US is fighting for a level playing field.
What year was it changed from Godwin's Rule? (Mike used to call it Godwin's Rule in comp.org.eff back when. When did it become a law?)
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
It's too bad we rape our forests like we do. =((
We need to go high tech instead of being a natural resource economy. Now with the dollar coming back up we have the opportunity to change!
Micron will gain market share in the US, but it will lose market share in the rest of the world as the Korean firm moves all their output to other places. As Micron loses world share they have to dump all their production in the US, depressing prices. Net effect on prices in the US? Nil. Net effect on prices in the rest of the world? Nil.
And don't forget that pre-built computers can still get in the US with Korean DRAM with no tariff. This only applies to DRAM not in a computer already.
Of course the precursor to the chip-manufacturing tariffs was the chimp-manufacturing tariffs.
It is a little known fact that chimps and other small simians actually play a large role in all industries. Chip manufacturing, for instance, is normally done in labs by trained chimps. This allows Korean manufactoring companies to cut the labor costs, as well as making a building floors half as tall, since only chimps need to enter.
This move, as well as the tariff on chimps, was one that was obviously on its way. Already, many American businesses had begun replacing key portions of its labor force with Korean-made chimps. Most notable in this effort is SCO, who went so far as replacing their entire executive board with chimps (it should be noted, however, that these chimps are not ordinary chimps, but rather 1/8th size chimps who have evolved a crude yet effective system of writing based upon the Korean language. Apparently these mini-chimps have been sending their nearly-random messages to IBM, which have then been interpreted as claims to own Unix).
I'm thinking of starting an anti-chimp initiative, to push congress to keep bad chimps from stealing jobs from hard-working Americans. Who's with me?
Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
Not that I support the tariff, but it seems like slashdotters don't know the whole story, so let me explain.
Hynix, for the last few years, has been losing a LOT of money, mostly due to the commoditization of DRAM and general Asian economic malaise. A couple years ago, Micron offered to buy Hynix. Hynix refused and instead kept taking out loans and otherwise attempted to stay afloat. (Hynix was bailed out a couple times after the first proposal. Some of these loans were from government owned banks; also, apparently, Hynix received some direct subsidies from the Korean government.)
Last year, though, Hynix's bad fortune came to a head, and the company was on the verge of collapse. Micron again offered to buy Hynix, and after extensive negotiations, it seemed like the merger would go through. But for some inexplicable reason, at the last minute Hynix refused the offer, claiming it wasn't high enough. (I say inexplicable because there were no other buyers or potential buyers and Hynix was ridiculously deeply indebted -- in this situation (i.e., close to bankruptcy with a viable way out), refusing to merge was almost probably (at least in America) not in the best interests of its shareholders.) Some creditors tried to band together and force Hynix to sell itself (after the two bailouts, creditors were the biggest shareholders) but that didn't pan out.
As Hynix's debt grew and grew and its financial state deteriorated (even after two huge bailouts) everyone knew that Hynix needed to get acquired -- even the government encouraged it. However, Korean politicians, civic groups and industry leaders outwardly opposed Hynix's acquisition by a foreign company; they wanted to figure out a way to keep Hynix Korean. From what I remember, a few months ago Hynix went through a restructuring/recapitalization and got some debt relief, but its financial prospects haven't improved.
Hynix's survival is very, very strange given its circumstances, except when you realize that its survival is only due to tremendous political pressure to keep the company alive for a Korean acquirer. Otherwise, I think that financial analysts have uniformly agreed that Hynix needs to get acquired by somebody.
For better or for worse, Micron had a strong argument. Hynix should probably not be independent right now, and is only so because of the direct (and indirect) help of the Korean government. Also, the overall effect has been really bad: Hynix's non-creditor shareholders have been screwed repeatedly in the bailouts (convertible debt is great for creditors, horrible for current shareholders); Korean government-owned banks have arguably wasted insane amounts of money by riskily throwing it Hynix; and now, prices for DRAM will artificially go up because of the tariffs.
Now, US is going back to "dark days" ...
;-)
After "war for oil", now you got protectionism !
Was not US supposed to be a liberal country ?
By the way, i propose that the whole world put a tax of 20% for US goods
Do you realize of this is stupid ?
US people, plz wake up ! The money lobby is trying to spoil your freedom !!!
-SLK
They do the same with Canada almost on a monthly basis. Lumber, electricity, oil, beef... The excuse may be different in the last case, but who buys it?
Mind the frickin' laser...
probably because north korea is lacking, ummmm electricity, food etc. but hey they can make little missiles.
i think that canada, the us, britain... most of the mid-east, asia, africa and australia (although i may be reaching there) are all fucked. the world's kind of a mess all around, mainly because of imaginary global economics that ensure that hungry people stay that way while we (including me, i'm no better) get fat and whine about anything we can from the comfort of our clean, disease free homes clicking and typing ona piece of electronics with a pricetag that looks like some families yearly income. we're all guilty, and we're all making it worse day by day.
scott king
Same problem as above--Canada's socialist, anti-market subsidies propped up softwood lumber producers so they could dump their products in the US. Just like in the case being discussed, the US applied a corrective measure. If the Canadian industry can't handle a little competition, that's not our problem.
The point here is that the WTO has ruled that the Canadian government does not unfairly subsidize the softwood lumber industry. The Canadian softwood producers are not 'propped up' by 'socialist, anti-market subsidies'. Canada does use a different system (from the U.S.) for the sale of logging rights, but it is not intrinsically unfair. Unless, of course, you wish to make the assertion that the WTO is a bastion of 'leftist' and 'socialist' thinking.
Until recently, the Canadian dollar was at all-time historic lows against the U.S. dollar--consequently, Canadian products became cheaper (relatively) in the American market. Now, the Canadian dollar has jumped in value about fifteen percent in the last year or two--Canadian goods will become more expensive. We should also consider the possibility that the American softwood lumber industry is inefficient and uncompetitive, and should be subjected to market forces instead of hiding behind protectionist tariffs.
Yep. Leftists and socialists such as yourself think it's peachy for every country but the US to prop up uncompetitive industries, using far more nationalist propaganda than anything you'll ever see in US markets. But if the big, bad US of A, which probably sent soldiers to fight for your freedom to bitch at some point, tries to defend its own markets, oh, what a monster.
Hypocrite.
They were also fighting for their own 'freedom to bitch'. In case you're wondering, Canada too has paid in blood for the right of its citizens to bitch. Battles like Vimy Ridge and Ypres in WWI, and the Juno Beach landing in WWII are as well known to Canadians as events like Leyte Gulf or Pearl Harbor are to Americans. Feel free to discuss differences of opinion about international trade policy, but don't insult the millions of men and women in other countries who have also died for our freedom.
The United States is one of the world's largest markets. If it engages in unfair trade practices, it distorts commerce for the rest of the world. If it chooses to employ protectionist tariffs while purportedly supporting free trade...'hypocrite' indeed.
~Idarubicin
Japan, actually. Fuckwit.
This has to be the work of the RIAA! (I tried to think of a way to blame it on SCOX, I got nothing. :^)
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
In that case, you can directly thank the US occupation for changing Japan from an imperial, fascist regime, to the successful capitalist democracy it is today. Or would you rather be marching to your death in China right now on orders of the Emperor?
Interesting, once "national" interests come into play then free trade goes out the window...
Is that how I should view things? Because if that is what you are saying it is extremely two faced! Other countries are saying the same thing btw. However to the American politicians they are viewed as "isolationist", etc..
You know that is what trade is about. Specializing in specific tasks that the other one cannot do as efficiently. But I suppose it only applies until "national interests" come into play...
This is the problem of the current administration. They are two faced and see things using only one perspective. It is going to get them burned...
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
Since I keep seeing posts about steel I figured I would respond to one.
US manufacturers were very competitive. I should know - I used to own a steel company that brought in steel from Russia (actually, smaller places that were once part of Russia). The fact is that Russia, China, and most of the third world has one thing that the US can not compete with - low-cost labor.
Places like Kazakhstan have have been taken over by Russian mafia who pay their workers in food. People over there are told that they are going to be paid - but, since there are no jobs outside of steel mills and prostitution, having a job that feeds you versus not having a job at all and starving is much better.
Think about this - you could buy foreign steel from Russia and have it shipped over for a much lower cost than going down the street to Huntco (now gone). Sure, the quality was a bit off - but, when you are building bridges and buildings you use so much steel that a little loss is no problem. US companies were fighting to survive but you can not compete with companies that have little overhead.
And Japan - they dumped like crazy. High grade, nice coils (selling for under cost) that took out the remaining US steel market.
So, yea. It was competition against countries that were either dumping to destroy the market or mafia with slave labor. Real fair.
anyone heard of Econimic Terrosim?
Its the Thing the USA does to much of the world..
and then has the gall to wounder why they are so hated? lol
What the USA is doing to south Korea in not unique, The USA doing the same thing to many onther countries in the world, tarrifs on a wide Viraty of goods for mostly made up reasons...
You're sort of stretching things here.
Ties to Montana? This sounds like some weird equivalent to a McCarthy era accusation of "ties to Communism," except it's a frickin cow.
Now before I get modded down, I be to remind whoever might read this that what I am saying is FACT. - bogaboga
Has reported a loss in the last 22 of 25 quarters.
Is being investigated by DOJ for price fixing.
Tried to force smaller manufacturers out of business with predatory pricing, which is part of the reason for huge losses and cheap DRAM.
Never intended to buy Hynix and unlikely to have capital to do so anyway. Just wanted to look at the books which has lead to the current tariffs being imposed against Hynix.
Think about it this way. If Canadian steel is subsidized by the government, why shouldn't americans be able to take advantage of that? I mean, if Canadian steel costs (lets say) half as much as american steel, that means that steel products made in the US could cost less. Like cars, for example. Cars made in america with Canadian steel would cost less then cars made in other places in the world without free trade agreements with canada.
In other words american manufactured goods are being subsidized by canadian taxpayers!
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Drat -- someone caught onto our scheme! I regret that our business arrangment has come to an end, because I was looking for more of your money to subsidize my continuing purchases of Korean memory products.
We both know that long-term, your largesse has one obvious effect, long-term: namely, that your money creates some great bargains for purchasers of specially-supported companies' products.
It was fun while it lasted, though. If you care to subsidize any other products, I hope you will especially consider paying for part of my next LCD panel; they're still more expensive than I would like, and it would be nice if you could chip in a few bucks.
Thanks in advance,
timothy
p.s. In regards to our prior correspondence: maybe I wasn't clear. No, I actually don't care to artificially prop up any domestic businesses to achieve some sort of artificial parity in price or export numbers. I'll consider it, but it seems pretty irrational, except on the part of the subsidized business.
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
"except it's a frickin cow"
That fricken cow has cost the Canadian cattle industry millions of dollars. By the end it could be billions.
If the cow aquired BSE while it [or it's related cows] was in Montana, then it has serious implication for the US cattle industry, and their ban on Canadian beef imports. It's like shutting the gate when the horses are out.
http://cbc.ca
Why slashdot? Why not?
I was just saying that the WTO is not a credible organization.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
you can directly thank the US occupation for changing Japan from an imperial, fascist regime, to the successful capitalist democracy it is today
"Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss..."
Yeah yeah, what happened to the "we're the savior of the world" crap you pull? Oh, I see, you're only the savior of the world WHEN YOU CAN MAKE A FAST BUCK.
Can we call you the "whore of the world" now instead?
US Farmer product US steel product US wood exports US airline wanting to land on EU ground Etc... Etc... Etc... I am sick of the rethoric "X in the 3rd world is giving illegal subside ! Let us impose tariff !" hollier than you, when the US is doing it on many of its own industry.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Sorry did you say *little* more cost? Try $50 Billion/year for us and $150 Billion a year for the third world. link. Steel tariffs alone are essentially paying US steel workers each something like $80,000 in inefficient prices. Yet they don't really make that much, even though we pay it. Poverty is not a measure of how much you make, but of how much you can buy. Tariffs *invariably* make consumers poorer.
Boom Shanka
don't forget, in 1812 we kicked the americans asses and burnt their whitehouse to the ground.. perhaps its time to shut off the gas to the usa and make em lern to speak aribic and read by candlelight.. (although we should probbly stockpile some nukes first.. it seems to be the only way to get the US to shut up and behave..)
That's exactly what the US said about softwood lumber. Despite the fact they've said it three times before and have been proven wrong each time,and despite preliminary rulings coming down suggesting they'll be proven wrong yet again.
It's also exactly what the US said with respect to Canada's grain industry, despite the nine previous times they've said so, and being proven wrong each and every time.
So you'll excuse me if I don't believe the US BS.
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
The US is known for screaming subsidies for just about anything.
They've tried three times on Canadian softwood lumber, and been shown to be talking out of their ass each time, with the fourth coming up in short order here.
They've accused Canada of illegally subsidizing its grain products nine times now. Each occurrence has resulted in Canada's practices being confirmed as fully legal and compliant.
Of course they say SK has been illegally subsidizing. They can't put a tarrif on without saying that. That doesn't make it any more true than Bush's WMD claims.
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
..Canada hasn't broke the contract.
The US just likes to cry that Canada does so that they can put on illegal duties, and then illegally pass those duties (through the Byrd Amendment) off to the companies that asked for them in the first place.
The duties are supposed to be the end of the equalization process. Giving them to the domestic industries is an illegal subsidy of those companies, one which the American taxpayer foots the bill for when it comes time for the US to pay back what it took. (Because the Byrd Amendment does not require that the companies set aside the duties until the end of any rulings)
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
I think it's ironic when many posters here deride those advocating government sponsorship of broadband to help realize the dream of FTTH in the US.
The argument typically given is in support of open capitalism, blah blah blah. Capitalism in the US is not an equal playing field for all competitors. Corruption rules the day and progress and capitalism itself are often the victims.
What's wrong with subsidies that bring about progress in industry and spawn new market opportunities? But nothing much is said by these people regarding market protectionism and isolationism. Where are those strong supporters of capitalism when it comes to these types of issues.
..siding against the US, that has a long and distinguished record of crying "Subsidy!" when there isn't one, and turning around and providing it's own subsidies (agricultural, etc) and calling those fair.
Now, it may by that Hynix is being subsidized, it may not, but the US has cried wolf so many times, and has shown that it doesn't actually believe in the spirit of free trade (to say nothing of the letter) so often that those of us who have been on the receiving end of this treatment can't help but think "Sh'yeah right, buddy."
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
big H1B tariffs? Protect chips but not people? Priorities.
Sounds a lot like Chrysler Motors. Mabey we can sell Micron to the Germans! :)
I live in Boise, ID, headquarters of Micron Technology. Micron is the the largest private employer in Boise (and Idaho, for that matter), so criticizing the company is often risky business considering all the company loyals in town, as well as the clout they hold on local leaders. There has been almost no direct negative press about MU in the local newpapers or media.
In January, Micron CEO Steve Appleton held a press conference and announced a "product misstep" was to blame for several quarters of steep losses. This "misstep" is Micron's leapfrog to DDR400, which essentially left them out of the hot market for all of 2002. This press conference was covered lightly, and the media certainly didn't dwell on it this revelation.
By March, nearly everybody had forgotten about Appleton's admission of "misstep"ing the company into perpetual quarterly losses, and decided to go on the spin campaign. Another press conference was called to announce the company's losses were the fault of subsidized Korean chip maker Hynix. This time, every media outlet in driving distance was notified. U.S. Senator Mike Crapo was on hand to lend his support for the home-town corporation and blast the Korean government for propping up Hynix and running Micron into the ground. This story ran for several days in the local media.
Appleton masterfully deflected earnings shortcomings from himself to the Koreans, and at the same time positioned Micron to be the beneficiary of "emergency" protection from the the US International Trade Commision, the body who deals with trade complaints from US companies. Interestingly, according to US trade law, it is not necessary for the ITC to have conclusive evidence of dumping/subsidies/etc to grant short-term protective tariffs. They need only have proof that there may be "unfair" trade practices taking place. In addition, the ITC may levy countervailing duties against foreign offenders if a company is harned, or may be harmed, by fair and legal trade .
As with most protection, the consumer ends up footing the bill. The greatly inceased duty on Korean chips will drive up the price in the DRAM market and force US consumers to pay artifically high prices. Meanwhile, Micron recovers and Appleton saves face. These duties are NOT about Korean subsidies, they are about Micron trade protection wrapped in an All-American, patriotic, apple-pie-loving shell.
Just remember who's paying for the "product misstep": YOU!!!
If the South Koreans think no competitor will rise up after they stop dumping, then they're delusional. If on the other hand, the South Koreans believe they can subsidize my US lifestyle forever, then I wish them all the best.
Long live South Korea !
Sincerely,
Selfish And Proud of It
If Bush does not restrict foreign trade, the domestic economy suffers by not being able to compete with foreign government-subsidized industry, and is therefore a fuck-up.
I love how Slashdot posters make Bush being a fuck-up into a tautology.
Mabey they'll drop the price a little bit to offest the tarif. Also, if American prices rise, their price will drop due to drop off in damand. Thank God I live in Canada.
And, one more question... how did Sadam get that nerve gas in the first place?
A) after a bad fart, he had an ingenious idea
B) stole it from someone
C) those freedom hating French gave it to him
D) his pal George Sr. was quite happy to sell it to him, and probably his taliban friends too
enter sig here
Hynix memory is better than Micron's. If I wanted to protect one of them, it wouldn't be Micron.
Maybe you should read your own link. Nowhere did the parent poster make a comparison to Nazis, merely mentioned them in historical context.
Hide them up your bum.
The USA talks the talk, but doesn't walk the walk when it comes to free trade. For example, the USA subsidizes lots of its farmers, and then dumps the excess production on the world market, even if doing so takes away markets from its allies which don't subsidize their farmers, like Australia.
And then the USA imposes tariffs on Australian imports to the USA, even though Australia doesn't subsidize its farmers, doesn't impose tariffs on US exports, and is a good ally of the USA.
I think Australia should send its Special Air Service over to USA to KICK THE BUTT of whoever makes these crappy decisions.
"Australian farmers' US anger"
/ 2141911.st m
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/1989413.stm
what makes it worse, we are having the worsed drought in a decade, some states are having the worsed drought since at least 1900.
"Drought ruins Australian farmers"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific
Thank you for using the word APROPOS that is so fashionable nowadays, since everyone heard it in the Matrix.
But MAKE NO MISTAKE, our RESOLVE will be strong.
And we will PREVAIL over the trendy-word TERRORISTS and their CHEMICAL WEAPONS.
Please don't use a phrase you don't understand. It grates.
dominionrd.blogspot.com - Restaurants on
look it up.
-Libertarian secular transhumanist
This just shows that despite that the Bush adminsitration claims, they are simply not for free trade.
In addition to Vietnamese catfish (which has been beaten to death) and Canadian lumber, steel imports have been taxed too.
Guess whose Presidential re-election depends on steel-heavy states like Ohio, West Virginia, and Pennsylvania?
And now DRAM. Well, at least now he has the votes of all 18,700 employees of Micron.
I give up!
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
One only need look to a current news article to see why:
1 .html)
= cnet).
Micron Sees Improved PC Demand, Even Though Dell Doesn't(http://biz.yahoo.com/tsp/030611/10093006_
Hmmm...which of the two companies mentioned has a better track record at the PC industry? Does Micron even make PCs anymore?
This Hynix dumping thing is really just a lame attempt to cover up some very stupid decisions on part of Micron.
When the Hynix acquisition didn't pan out, what did Micron do? Go and buy Toshiba's DRAM operation instead.
All this in 2001, during a time of falling prices (http://news.com.com/2100-1001-271208.html?legacy
Now they're saddled with overcapacity and lost something like $900million on sales of almost $2billion. Nobody to blame but themselves.
One only need look to a current news article to see why:
1 .html)
= cnet).
Micron Sees Improved PC Demand, Even Though Dell Doesn't(http://biz.yahoo.com/tsp/030611/10093006_
Hmmm...which of the two companies mentioned has a better track record at the PC industry? Does Micron even make PCs anymore?
This Hynix dumping thing is really just a lame attempt to cover up some very stupid decisions on part of Micron.
When the Hynix acquisition didn't pan out, what did Micron do? Go and buy Toshiba's DRAM operation instead.
All this in 2001, during a time of falling prices (http://news.com.com/2100-1001-271208.html?legacy
Now they're saddled with overcapacity and lost something like $900million on sales of almost $2billion. Nobody to blame but themselves.
USA subsidises wheat exports, the government subsidises inefficient farming practices and farmers. Both the USA and Europe buy votes through these practices.
Meanwhile I have relations on properties greater than 4000 acres with some of the most efficient production practices in the world having to worry about porkbarrelling in whenever an election occurs in the Northern Hemisphere.
Tarrifs instigated through political pressure are a sign of an economy in decline. Subsidies would be better off going to educational institutions, at least these pay the taxpayer back in the long run.
I hear the South Korean government getting reamed for keeping foreign companies from acquiring the company...but that's exactly what we do as well to protect UPS/FedEx.
0 01 0126/aponline190119_000.htm
In short, DHL is a small competitor to FedEx and UPS. DHL Airways is contracted by DHL to carry air freight for DHL. The German post office bought into DHL (which only owns 25% of DHL Airways), and now FedEx and UPS are trying to get DHL Airways shutdown in the US because that supposedly is 'foreign ownership'.
Of course, in the US, foreigners are not allowed to own more than 25% of our airlines.
Jumping ahead a bit, isn't the government bailout of airlines really the same thing? There is no question that airlines are the nastiest, most inefficient entities ever to develop on the planet Earth.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/2
...and we'll end there. Libertarianism is "conservative" anarchy--don't get there too soon, but head that way.
-Libertarian secular transhumanist
If you google around a bit, you'll find that chemical weapons are pretty hard to destroy and require very large incinerators that would easily be spotted by satelliete.
This is totally and utterly wrong. Don't believe everything you read on the internet, son...
When I did my military service we were trained in destroying chemical weapons.
They are pretty reactive (otherwise they would be lousy weapons), and can easily be neutralized by ordinary household cleaning products, or gasoline (Iraq certainly had no shortage of that one...).
I have personally tried this with both sarin (a nerve-agent) and mustard-gas, and were told it would work on other substances, like Fosgen or VX too.
Most chemical weapons also decay with time (very reactive, remember) and thus proving that Iraq had working nerv-agents a decade ago doesn't prove they had it now since their proven 1993 weapons would be unsable by now.
Chemical weapons are horrible, but you don't have to believe all the FUD and propaganda surrounding them.
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
Lamb tariffs killing our farmers in Oz as well. Been ruled illegal by the WTO. Dunno if they have removed them or not.
-- Karma Karma Karma Karma, Karma Chameleon - Boy George
I propose a huge tariff on all SPAM imported from Korea!
But, as I've said, it's no news. Recently, U.S. Gov. has put huge barriers against steel from others, more competitive countries (Brazil, E.U., etc.).
Another good example is Canadian lumber.
Afterall, who wants to lose his job and investments? But that doesn't mean the rest of the country ought to help subsidize your employment.
The reality is that:
For those who want to understand the sordid reality behind the claims of "unfair" competition, and how rigged the system is against foreign manufacturers, I recommend the following paper:
Antidumping 101: The Devilish Details of "Unfair Trade" Law
They must exist.
They must.
The government said so.
feels that their countries chip industry is in the dolldrums...
or wants a little something something.
I know you are psychotic, but please make an effort.
Like there is anything steel-specific in this...
All industries face that kind of price competition when they cease to innovate significantly. Decades ago, cloths, steel, shipyards, cars etc... became commodities and their production was gradually transferred to emerging countries. This is a Good Thing (TM) as it both lowers the price of standard products in developped countries while stifling growth and wealth in emerging countries.
The only solution for western producers is to continually innovate to support a superior price. Nowadays, nobody still produces cloth in developped countries except for high quality, high tech speciality stuff. The western car industry suffered tremendously in the 70's when the technology became mundane enough for Korea to mass-produce cars cheaply. The western industry reacted by a massive rightsizing, innovation (ABS, air-bags...), superior development process, better design and good marketing.
The steel industry is no different. The world's largest steel producer is Arcelor, an French-Belgian conglomerate. They have outsourced standard production to emerging countries and have developped high value added products (flat steels) that justify a double or triple price. And believe me, with all their taxes and social contributions, labor costs in France or Belgium are not cheaper than in the US.
Cost dumping will always exist. It drives costs down, stimulates innovation and allows third world development if managed correctly. Tariffs are a short-sighted answer. They delay the inevitable while artificially maintaining high prices and inefficient businesses.
It would be nice to be sure of anything the way some people are of everything.
don't forget, in 1812 we kicked the americans asses and burnt their whitehouse to the ground.. perhaps its time to shut off the gas to the usa and make em lern to speak (although we should probbly stockpile some nukes first.. it seems to be the only way to get the US to shut up and behave..)aribic and read by candlelight..
All South Korea needs to do is reunite with the North. Then maybe the US will reconsider.
This is not really surprising. America's dirty little secret about free trade is that it only wants it in industries where it has a competative advantage, namely capital intensive, low-labor industries with high barriers to entry. Witness Americas record of high tariffs and low quotas on:
* Canadian lumber
* Asian and European steel
* Brazilian sugar and citrus fruits
* Mexican produce and logistical transport
* Textiles from pretty much everywhere
Despite all the protests to the contrary, this is one of the reasons why the World Trade Organization is not always such a bad thing. It works to curb the natural inclinations of the rich and powerful (eg America) for stacking the deck in their favor. For example, American trade practices in each of the above cases have been ruled illegal by the WTO in recent years.
Although Uncle Sam may want free trade in Hollywood films, Microsoft software, Pfizer Viagra, Monsanto GMO crops, and little else. Only a fair and multilateral international trade regime will make globalization a workable system.
"The optimism that followed the ratification of (the Vietnamese free-trade agreement) is slowly but surely replaced by deep concerns that the commitment of the United States to free trade only exists when it conveniently serves the interests of U.S. exporters," said Nguyen Huu Chi, an official with Vietnam's Ministry of Trade.
...
"
Maybe the difference between catfish and computer chips isn't that big after all
It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
you shouldn't claim to participate in something that you clearly do not stand for
Yeah, Bush should stick to the same policies he has with regard to international bodies such as the U.N
Shit, wait a minute!
Even though the Smoot-Hawley tariff was put in place eight months after the depression? More details can be found out about this myth here.
"Because we are not employing at entry level, offshoring will kill our industry stone dead."
I will dig out my newspaper cuttings of sanctions against West Germany for keeping relitively good relationships with East Germany during the 80s.
Moron.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Crucial.com is a division of Micron.
Guess I won't be buying from them again... you shouldn't either.
the South Koreans plan to appeal to the World Trade Organisation.
What's the point? Canada has won numerous rulings against the US on the softwood lumber issue, and others, but the American regime simply shrugs them off. They know that if they delay long enough their competitors will go out of business.
The current American regime believes that international rules should only bind non-Americans (NPT, landmines, ICC, Kyoto Protocol, ABM treaty, NAFTA, nuclear test ban treaty, and so on, and on, and on).
From what I've seen lately, the EU is starting to behave that way, too.
When it comes to international policy, big is apparently still beautiful.
-deane
.... except we have another source. Uh doy. Remember Micron?
--that's where produced wealth comes from "resources". You can either grow them, or mine them, then you make things out of the other two products, and that's about it. That is really it, there's no other way to create wealth. Try to pick out any product that isn't based eventually down the line to something that isn't mined or grown. Even computer data-written software, programs- all dependent on mined products then turned into manufactured goods.
There's no way around it, any successful nation will manufacture and have agriculture as a business, once it stops those two things it's economy starts to slide downhill. They can exist for awhile trading around other nations manufactured and grown and mined products, but eventually those people will cut you-the middleman-out. They won't need you. And once you don't have any of your own products, then even your fiat money ceases to be valuable, exactly what is happening to the US dollar. The US dollar is known in slang terms under two versions, the world reserve currency and also the petro dollar. It became the reserve currency because of being the petrodollar currency(simplistic, obviously more factors involved, ww2 reconstruction was a large one for example). It was the petrodollar because the cash went to oil producing nations, because that's all we offered in exchange for the oil, and the only reason they took those petro dollars in the first place is because they could turn around and purchase US manufactured or grown products, and part of those products were the oil business machinery, then weapons, which every goombah in the middle east loves. Now that that is no longer necessary, because we short sightedly exported our manufacturing, there is less and less need to even use US dollars. They can continue to devalue the dollar, but it's a vicious circle, because as fast as we destroying manufacturing in the US, that makes the dollar even of less worth to purchase the remaining manufactured goods. So they devalue again, we sell a few things, but then it doesn't matter, they are worth less, so they have to further devalue. On and on, rinse lather repeat.
Canada can delay it longer than the US because it has a much lower per capita ratio to your own still useable natural resources, which allows you to create wealth vertically. The smart thing to do is to keep manufacturing, to refine your grown and mined natural resources into saleable products. Just do it wisely, you'll stay one of the wealthier nations for a much longer time. If you demonize your miners, energy producers and agricultural/timber people like we have in the US, you'll suffer the same fate we are, getting raped by the internationalists, who are only one generation long thinkers and short term profiteers who don't care, they have no social niceties to them.
You have to strike a balance between the extremes, and you have to also remember the first rule of wealth production, back to my first statement, it ALWAYS starts with either grown or mined/pumped out of the ground. Anything else is not wealth production, it's wealth re-arranging, or skimming, it's a net loss compared to creation, and vertical industries work the best for wealth creation-if you want any sort of technological based existence. In Canada in particular you are fabulously well off to keep doing that for hundreds of years, don't blow it is my best recommendation. The US is counting on just being big enough to keep intimidating other nations to do our wealth creation for us, so we can just skim, middleman, trade for stuff. The world doesn't need to do that anymore, there is little of anything the US produces that isn't cheaper anyplace else (some exceptions still but the trend is dropping), so the need to use petrodollars is dropping fast as well. They have obviously shifted to a looter/threat based economy now, basically what imperial rome had to do once they had foreigners doing all the work for them, they had nothing more to offer than taking by force. People here are dancing around it, but strip away wealth creation, lose
That the U.S was directly responsible for forming and getting countries to sign up to? You're a loon.
Really? Then maybe you can explain why the US Tariffs applied to steel imported from the EU? This is a region which has higher labour costs associated with it (As we are regularly reminded by those of you from the bastion of the Right and Just, the United States).
While you're doing that, why not try and explain how the US tariffs apply against the import of Canadian lumber. Canda is hardly a 3rd world wastland where workers earn pennies a week.
Then you'll be on a roll, so you can work out why it is O.K for manufactuers such as Nike to take advantage of outragously cheap labour in the third world, or why Starbucks can gouge coffee farmers in South America, yet that is fine and dandy?
The "Fair" in Fair Trade is incorrect.
you are probably american because you are concerned about the american economy i understand your concern.
but Bush marked the begining of a new era of new unreached before level of hate to america, killed innocent people, withdrawn from enviromental treaties and (i'm serious) he is really stupid and very shallow.
for the sake of the world please PLEASE ! vote that moron out of the whitehouse.
If the Sout-Korean government subsidizes any product exported to USA or EU, so what? The only people that should be annoyed with that are the southkoreans, the pay taxmoney they don't get any return on.
It is _good_ for the US or EU economies if US or EU consumers can buy cheaper stuff, since they then can consume more, e.g., domesctic produced services (typically restaurants).
Btw, GWB called american steelworkers the best steelworkers in the world, but yet they can't compete...
Think about it this way; If jobs can be shipped overseas to third world counties to people who are willing to get paid in grains of rice or not at all(slave labor), why shouldn't Americans be able to take advantage of that? I mean, if corporations don't have to pay real wages, then the products they sell could be cheaper. Like shoes, for example. Nike shoes made by little brown kids for pennies means those $100 nike's shoes black kids were killing each other over not too long ago would cost less.. oh wait, that right, the 'savings' just get pocketed; nevermind.
ps. your caps key seems to be sticking depending on the word, in particular the c & A key: for example: canadian, American.
Consider:
1. First they tried FUD, with Congressman Berry, (Dem, Arkansas) claiming that maybe the catfish were contaminated by Agent Orange.
2. Next, the Catfish Farmers of America (CFA) managed to persuade Congress to pass a law restricting the use of the word "catfish" to American varieties.
3. Neither of these diry tricks worked mainly because American consumers are not as stupid as they thought. So they decided to launch an anti-dumping suit. They petitioned the department of commerce to work out how much it would cost to raise hypothetical catfish in India, fillet and freeze them in imaginary factories, and ship them in phantom boats to America. When you resort to this level of creative accounting it is not hard to get the answer you want. Evil Vietnamese catfish barons are dumping below cost catfish on struggling American farmers.
Of course no-one wants to consider the obvious reason - catfish are plentiful in Vietnam and labour is cheap.
This will probally have impact in ALCA (Ãrea de livre comércio das américas/america's free trade zone - and remember america != us, america is a portion of land that goes from alaska/north canada to patagonia).
US already don't want to discuss agricoltural products leaving it for later, but you see, for most of the american countries, those are the products where they are strong and can get money seeling for US.
Most countries are already starting to worry about ALCA and how US says one thing and does another one very different, so, if US don't chance it's behavior soon and just start playing fair (not asking to open all market, etc, just to use world trade organization rules) there won't be a free trade zone on americas, or at least part of Mercosul (Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay and Uruguay) won't be on it.
this is pretty obvious.
It costs more to raise catfish in the US, so
obviously anyone else must be dumping.....
just like US
wheat
lamb
beef
????
protectionist economic policies have never been
so obvious.......
If an american company cant make DRAM cheaper
than other countries, well DUH!!! stop making
them and buy from the cheaper source.
oh thats right domestic jobs.....
better slap a few tarrifs on.....
Come on! How disgusting is that! I am horrified. As a specialist chip make my firm needs the US market. If it can do it to Korea what about the rest of the world.
:-]
Here in the uk we product some of the finest chips in the world. They are made with tender loving care and are always of a high quality.
Our firm use only the finest potatos! Do you know how hard it is to grow good quality potatos!!!
Jaj
Why do liberals defend murderous dictators at the expense of their own country? I weep for America if you guys ever get back in power. You'll trade more nukes to China.
China developed its own nukes, it didn't get them from the US. You want to explain just which US post-WWII administration you think gave nukes to a communist country without anyone actually knowing about it?
Trading nukes to China? Just how stupid are you? Is your name Ralph Wiggum by any chance?
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Because the South Korean government has repeatadly propped up a dying company that dumps product onto the market below cost?
And the US hasn't? The US constantly pours money into its corporations. The US-Canada disbute over softwood lumber is the perfect example. The US has been massively supporting its lumber industry and placing stiff tarrifs on Canadian lumber claiming that Canada provides major support for its own industry. The reality is that the particular Canadian lumber is just of much higher quality and is has lower costs in acquisition or production so the Americans can't compete.
The same can be said of the US-European fight over American steel.
In fact the US just considers itself beyond the power of the WTO because it refuses to accept WTO rulings. Look at the Helms-Burton act; it was condemned as illegal by the entire international community and the effectively said "Screw you guys. I'm going home."
This doesn't even include the billions in taxpayer dollars that the US funnels into corporate pockets through other means. In fact 50% of foreign 'aid' is actually military aid; and most of that money goes right back to the US to pay big US weapons manufacturers.
This is left as an exercise for the reader.
I am Zapanese!
Why isn't the US government doing anything about all the cheap labour being dumped onto the market by the mid/far east?
Isn't that far more damaging to the economy?
DRAM, pfft, at least somebody IS producing it. ... hehehe ...
same with steel, orange juice, cars: at least somebody is actually making it.
-> made on earth
You forgot to mention that the Eurotrash Union already put these same tarriffs in place...
The EU nations for the most part fund such things with VAT and opressive income taxes. Companies do not bear the ultimate burden of such expenses.
The EU, which started as the European Steel & Coal community, has a long track record of providing bailouts to inefficient and bloated steel companies.
I do not think it is a good thing for US manufacturers to ship labor overseas. I'm also not in favor of free trade.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Where do I get these 512Mb sticks of PC2700 for $30? I suppose I better get some quick before your company jacks up the prices!
Interesting to see how the Vietnamese catfish issue has panned out.
Just to give you a little background, the catfish being farmed in Vietnam are in the family Pangasiidae, with the species most commonly farmed Pangasius sansitwongsi . The catfish farmed in the States are members of the family Ictaluridae. The U.S. farmers began feeling the competition a few years ago, and lobbied their local senator (the name escapes me). The senator tacked a rider onto some major bill, forcing all catfish imported from Vietnam to be labeled as "basa". To make things worse, only members of Ictaluridae may be called catfish, according to the rider. There are over 3000 species in the order Siluriformes, all of which are catfish. A prominent catfish ichthyologist even went to the Hill to argue that point, without any luck.
The U.S. has got to stop it's hypocritical treatment of other countries trade relations now, before matters get even more out of hand. Steel, bananas, and now computer chips and catfish are the first victims. What next?
fsck -u
The US is certainly very good at hypocrisy, I suppose that comes with diversity and arrogance ;)
Here is an excerpt :-
THE founding myth of the dominant nations is that they achieved their industrial and technological superiority through free trade. Nations that are poor today are told that if they want to follow our path to riches they must open their economies to foreign competition. They are being conned. Almost every rich nation has industrialised with the help of one of two mechanisms now prohibited by the rules of global trade. The first is "infant industry protection": defending new industries from foreign competition until they are big enough to compete on equal terms. The second is the theft of intellectual property. History suggests that technological development may be impossible without one or both.
It seems the US and Britain were quite ruthless in their "infant industry protection".
Shame the article is locked up in the closed New Scientist archive. Great resource, well worth the subscription cost.
FAILURE! However, in the depths of your failure shines a distant light of hope, it's your own failure haiku!
lunix fails again
even your mother hates you
chug some bleach, FAILURE!
i seem to recall a few speeches in which he claimed there were WMDs hanging out in iraq. *he* built WMDs as the pretext for this war. *he* raised the expectations of the world (not just american) public about this.
he got himself into it, he's gonna have to get himself out of it.
ed
Funny how when the EU imposes a tariff, it's fine, but if the US does it, it's evil.
o pi c.php?t=390
http://www.hardwareaccelerated.com/forums/viewt
Think about it. He said for years that there were no more WMD in Iraq. He also had 4 years to put them anywhere he wanted to. Anyway, since he did not use them in the war, even though he was backed into a corner, everyone's automatically going to think he didn't have them available.
He's counting on wearing down America like Vietnam. He's put a bounty of $350-$1500 for each American soldier killed by a loyalist. So just about everyday since the "official" end of hostilities, at least 1 American soldier has been killed by sniper, RPG, or ambush.
When the Americans leave, he can come back in from Syria or Jordan and set up shop again. He's counting on Americans to get tired of soldiers getting picked off, one at a time, every day. He's playing off the media, the EU, and skeptics of Bush to get his power back. Saddam is not an idiot. He's survived a lot longer than he should have, and there's good reasons for that.
man... slip me some of what you smoked today.
Bush has been eating a big shit sandwich ever since he took office. Unfortunately, much of it is batting cleanup from Clinton's presidency, but that's the way of things. Many problems get dropped into the lap of the subsequent leader, and it happened with Clinton too... but let's give credit where credit is due.
The Economy: already failing when bush took office. inherited from Clinton.
Corporate Scandals: Ongoing when Clinton was in office (part of that artificial economic boom)... the companies simply got caught under Bush's watch. This is one albatross that can be worn by a bunch of people, not just by, or even primarily by, bush.
September 11: Terrorist problem completely neglected under Clinton... inherited by bush (and will be inherited by presidents after bush... these people have been hitting us for a decade, and will continue to do so, at least until we find them and put a bullet into every one of their fanatacism-filled heads). As far as being the "worse" leader in time of crisis, I disagree... he's simply decided to wade in and do the dirty work that other presidents didn't have the stomach for... I'd count that as a plus.
As far as his previous substance abuse problem, if he's dealt with it, does it make him any less of a man? You're awfully judgemental... no problems/mistakes in your past? If he falls off the wagon, or recidivates again and again, I'd probably throw him out faster than you would.
By the way, Clinton didn't just "get a blow job." He's used women like shake and bake bags his entire life, committed perjury when confronted about it in court... this guy subjected our country to the humiliation of seeing his semen spewed onto the dress of some intern, and subsequently sent to the FBI crime lab.
Bush has his flaws, just like all of use do... but let's at least give credit where it's due. Many of these problems were NOT of his making.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
Iraq hasn't been a real sovereign nation in 12 years, so let's just stop pretending that it really was.
Hynix says the tariff is 'outrageous', and the South Koreans plan to appeal to the World Trade Organisation.
Ha! Go for it. We're the U.S., we don't care what the world thinks.
Prof. David D. Friedman explains at some length in Chapter 19: The Political Marketplace of his book Price Theory: An Intermediate Text the harm that is done by tariffs. The problem is that the benefit is very concentrated, while the cost is spread throughout the rest of the economy. In this case, it is even tougher because Micron is making the argument that their request is in response to subsidies favoring their competitor. I'm sure that most Slashdot readers can follow Friedman's math if they have the patience for it. But for those who can't or don't, he makes his argument in words as well as equations.
While this tariff would benefit Micron, it would cost lots of other companies money. What I would prefer to see is for the US to push the threat of a tariff. Let South Korea take their case to the WTO. Send in a team of vicious attack lawyers who will readily agree that both the tariff and the South Korean subsidy are wrong. Let's see Micron and Hynix compete head-to-head without tariffs or subsidies.
Their subsidy is at least as harmful to their economy as a tariff would be to ours. Simply put, we have the option of avoiding the tariff by not buying the goods. The citizens of South Korea pay for the subsidy regardless of their own individual choices, and at least in the short run, regardless of whether the chips even get sold.
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
What you are saying is technically true, but in fact the falling dollar will have no appreciable effect on the trade imbalance. This is because the biggest source of the imbalance by far is trade with China, and the Chinese yuan is tied to the dollar.
We haven't found any definitive WMD in Iraq, so you're saying they didn't exist. Yeah, well we haven't found Saddam either, so does that mean he didn't exist?
You're argument might hold up if we were comparing finding 15,000 gallons of Anthrax with finding 15,000 gallons of Saddam.
If there were 15,000 gallons of Saddam, and we had secret evidence that there was 15,000 gallons of Saddam, then I would think we would have found atleast 5 gallons of Saddam.
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
Republicans finally get control of the House, Senate and White house and the Government still does these stupid things that you expect from Democrats.
So what if the Korean government is helping out this company so they can undercut our prices. They won't be able to do it forever. Can't Micron find a way to make there chips cheaper? If the Korean government is going to subsidies chips for the whole world, then let them. Eventually they will see the error in their ways and will stop or they will continue to supply cheap chips to the world forever. (Unlikely, but what's wrong with that?) Micron can find something else to do if it can't find a way to compete.
Any system or router I admin blocks this: 211.0.0.0/8 .
Fuck Korea. Ricer picker security, as I once heard it called.
-- Note: If you don't agree with me, don't bother replying. I won't read it.
America would have more lumber if they built extra peasants.
-Thjorska
"by a (visiting) professor at Cornell..."
The way the United States have become in love with protectionlism is going to ruin them in the long run.
Cheap computer parts are more then just lining the pockets of outside producers, it also drives economic growth, education and research.
And it's not just computers that helps economies. Steel and lumber imports don't make it worse for the US as a whole. Sure some people lose their jobs but then again job security is so hard to find today. Why should University grads have to expect to work under contracts because of out sourcing to india when a bunch of lumber jacks can lobby for government protection of their industry?
In a way if you think about it protectionlism contributes to the inability of (because it's slashdot) tech workers to compete with cheap off shore out sourceing. Protectionlism contributes to a higher living cost as inefficent domestic industries drives prices up. Higher prices for goods means higher living cost. Which means workers requires higher wages.
Of course the whole situation is much more complicated then that. And job losted aren't good because real people are behind those jobs. But you know politicians always have a way of hiding the truth don't they? During electections they'll say how their government created so many jobs last year while when the other party was in power they lost so many jobs. I am pretty sure i never heard any of them been asked by a reporter where those jobs are and how much they paid.
Ah welll democratic leaders aren't really chosen just for their abilities. I tend to think of it as a oversized version of school yard politics. You just know the players even then then the people in the school yard that's all.
I hope Hynix has more luck than our Canadian soft-wood lumber industry, or our wheat farmers, or our beef industry, or ...
More like the same policy he has claimed to have with regards to the WTO specificly.
http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares
H-1B PRESS RELEASE
STATEMENT BY GOVERNOR GEORGE W. BUSH ON
THE CLINTON-GORE ADMINISTRATION'S REFUSAL
TO RAISE THE H1-B IMMIGRANT VISA CAP
"America has the best industries in the world. And that means we need the best workers
in the world. By failing to support legislation to increase the number of highly-skilled,
highly-trained immigrants, the Clinton-Gore administration is standing in the way of
continued economic growth.
"I urge the administration to unequivocally support bipartisan efforts in Congress to raise
the number of highly-skilled, highly-trained immigrants who can enter the country each
year. By increasing the number of these H1-B Visas, we can increase the chances that
our economy will continue to grow.
"Still, H1-B visas are a short term solution to a long term problem. As America's need
for highly-trained specialists continues to grow, the solution will be better education. I
have laid out an agenda based on the types of education reforms we passed in Texas,
placing a renewed emphasis on science and technology training.
"I urge the Clinton-Gore administration to put the public's interests ahead of union
bosses and special interests who oppose legal immigration. Let's raise our sights. And
let's raise the number of H1-B Visas."
The Government was funded for over 100 years
on tariffs. I say go back that form of financing,
personally. It's not wrong; in fact, it was
pretty smart. No income taxes. High growth.
Lot's of opportunity.
Declare that you bought them, the price you paid, and then you pay taxes accordingly.
If Carter had integrity, his incompetence far outweighed it.
/., please substitute "Dubya" in place of "Carter".
Wow, I was really confused until I realized this was an obvious typo. Readers of
This public service announcement brought to you by IndependentVik
I'd suggest you don't use Slashdot as your only news source, or you will suffer permanent brain damage.
and that makes it credible?
look, I am not saying that there is a better alternative, I am just saying they are not credible in their rulings becasue it is biased.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Well, I was waiting for someone to explain this situation better than I could. You nailed the history/debt behind what is going on for at least a decade. Everyone wants cheap products, but no one (the public) sees why and where the cheap product is coming from. The Southeast Asia economy is something every slashdotter should keep track of. If major loans are defaulted on, it does affect the World Economy and affects YOU.
How is it that people bitch about losing their jobs to overseas markets and then bitch about the government trying to keep American businesses afloat?
U.S. Imposes Big Tariffs On Korean Chipmakers
:)
I read "U.S. Imposes Big Tariffs On Korean Chipmunks"
I had 3 hours of sleep last night, I am about out of it. I think that to save a little face for my user id, I might want to avoid posting on slashdot today.
http://use.perl.org
Jesus Christ I was eating when I clicked on
this link.
>>illegal tarrifs
Illegal? Fucking tariffs are the only thing specified in the US Constitution. How is that illegal?
Sorry but the Constitution trumps the WTO IMO.
That's the problem. The US government has abdicated its roll in managing trade to the US courts which are world renouned for their bizarre decisions.
This allows companies in the US to get a court ordered trade embargo (aka tarriff) for pretty much any reason they want. They usually word it as "dumping" but more likely the off shore producer is just making a better cheaper product and cutting into the profits of the domestic company. Its just one more avenue, and a favorably biased one, for US companies to compete in the domestic market.
People wonder why the US has such a trade deficit. They accuse foreign companies of dumping, when its more likely that the protectionist practices in the US are leading to domestic companies that produce crap. Crap that nobody else in the world is willing to buy, but which can be sold to domestic cunsumers who are forced to buy inferior domestic products.
NB - Some idiot modded the original comment I made down as a "Troll", obviously because it didn't endorse said idiot's protectionist agenda. If you disagree with a comment, why not respond to it instead of trying to hide it from the view of others?
Here it is again:"Afterall, who wants to lose his job and investments? But that doesn't mean the rest of the country ought to help subsidize your employment.
The reality is that:
For those who want to understand the sordid reality behind the claims of "unfair" competition, and how rigged the system is against foreign manufacturers, I recommend the following paper: Antidumping 101: The Devilish Details of "Unfair Trade" Law."
This idea has cropped up a few times in this discussion. But as some great philosophemizzer once written, "TWO WRONGS DO NOT MAKE A RIGHT."
Hey, it is a big government of a big nation. Sometimes we get it wrong for a while, but in general try to fix it. Just because we are wrong in one case, doesn't mean we are in all case, let alone allow others to be wrong. The solution is not propogate the error, but to fix them.
my two cents,
The Pres
"Some think that I am smart enough to make a conspiracy to win a national election by 34 votes, then call me stupid"
ha HA ha ha ha
Why would big business hire AMERICAN workers when they can keep the tax money and keep hiring workers overseas?? The businesses never really had a problem with capital in the first place.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
"Good one, isolated cases without proof."
You want proof? You can't handle the proof!
Far from them being an advocate of free trade other than in speeches, this is only one example of increasing protectionism in the current Bush Administration. Taking the largest single trading partner to the US as an example, a wide range of recent tariffs and duties counter to the NAFTA and GATT agreements has done real harm the Canadian economy. Some economists estimate that the cost of such trade policies costs Canada approximately 1% of annual Canadian economic growth (2002 at 3.4%) The only answer, since this protectionsim seems only to be increasing despite numerous WTO rulings against them, would seem to be long-term diversification of export customers for US trade partners such as Canada, the EU, Australia, Japan & China, resulting in less dependance on access to US markets.
Bush made a deal with Japan to damage South Korea's economy in return for Japan acting as a stalking horse in starting a war with North Korea - which in turn Japan hopes will damage competitor South Korea's economy further...
Except of course the North Koreans will slip nukes into Tokyo Bay - not to mention Seattle, Oakland and Long Beach - and cost the Japanese - and the US - a few hundred billion dollars...
Your tax dollars at work...
Have a nice day.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
Entirely different thing, the only thing they have in common is that both will kill you...
Correct, water doesn't destroy, for example a nerve-agent, but the detergent you use in your washing machine would. (However if you are already exposed it doesn't really help you any.)
Also, I doubt the nerve agent if washed away would reach the ocean. It will be neutralized long before it ever gets there.
Search for self-decontamination in the article.
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
If Canada stopped exporting a good under NAFTA, they would be expected to pay the US and Mexico the penalty determined in the contract. Are you saying that there really is no contract?
I guess Canada is off the hook if the US is. Mutually terminated contract.
Why slashdot? Why not?
A lot of people believe that tariffs are usually bad, except when foreign governments are engaging in dumping operations. But even in this case, it is best for the country receiving the dumped goods to pursue free trade. Why?
Suppose there is a chip that costs the Korean manufacturer $40 to produce and sell in America. However, they sell it for only $30 in America, collecting the $10 difference in subsidies from the Korean government. Two things happen. First, American suppliers of similar chips are priced out of the market. Second, there is a value transfer from Korea to the United States of $10 per chip. Essentially, Korean taxpayers are giving American citizens $10 per chip they sell! American consumers receive a $40 product with a $10 rebate from Korean taxpayers. The United States usurps value from Korea, enriching America. The excess consumer savings--$10 per chip--is then spent elsewhere in the economy, or invested.
In the short run, there are some discomforts due to domestic economic shifts toward more efficient operations, away from the dumped market. In the long run, the subsidization makes up for it.
In summary, we ought to encourage dumping operations as much as possible. What more could we ask for than fools willing to subsidize a product for our consumption, putting money in our wallets?
Heavy tarrifs should be put on all companies who wish to operate outside the United States. Companies are hiring more and more people outside the United States to "enhance" profits. For every person hired outside the U.S. there is a person living in the U.S. who just lost his job. So as long as people support this idiocy we will have more and more people collecting un-employment. Oh, and who pays for un-employment? U.S. workers. I am sick and tired of all the idiots who support "Globalization" as a religion, the more "Global" we become the less we focus on ourselves as a country. If everyone wants the U.S. to become a third world country keep supporting companies in other countries..
you are speaking of monopolies being formed. the us and otherland are not two entities in a closed system. otherland (i assume you are american so i will state this) consists of MANY other lands (or companies). thus as someone else stated, there is way to many competitors in the marketplace for any one company to have complete control over the ram market. Also, the now defunct dram manufacturer, seeing the prices go up a theoretical 800%, decides its just the right time to begin selling dram again. thus the capitalist model is self correcting... well fancy that.
another point is that if you switch otherland to USA that is EXACTLY why so many people hate you guys, for driving mom and pop businesses out of the way to make room for the next walmart/bestbuy who sells useless shit at even cheaper prices.
i guess money doesnt buy intelligence, how surprising!
-
Is to send two Jedi to investigate!
If you don't know what AltaVista is (was), get off my lawn.
The chemical weapons bit was probably just a convenient excuse for a war which probably should have happened for different reasons. Sadaam may or may not have had chemical weapons - but if the sanctions were lifted it is likely that he would have sought them.
What part of "false premises and lies" don't you understand?
This is what the parent post was talking about.
One of the things I don't like about President
Bush is that he was always big on government
helping businesses, especially through tariffs.
This is wrong and unfair, since we should be able
to buy from any business we want without
government raising prices on the products of
competing businesses.
Also, he gave lots of money to the airlines. This
is also unfair, since it comes from our taxes. We
should spend money on the airlines out of our own
choice, not be forced to by the government.
I don't think my comments were "short-sighted" at all. Perhaps "greedy", but our entire system of government counts on "greed" as a motivator. I see no reason to apologize for it.
No, I don't work for a RAM company - but as I already said, there are ways a RAM manufacturer can counter this situation without resorting to running to "big government" for help in the form of tariffs and trade restrictions.
I don't care what country it is.... Ultimately, it's self-destructive behavior to keep selling/providing a product at below one's cost to produce it. If we'd let these things go, they'd sort themselves out in the long-run, and U.S. consumers would be the winners in the mean-time, getting product for less than it's really worth.
We can bitch back and forth to the end of time. But just show me
http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares