Slashdot Mirror

I wonder if they contacted John Carmak about this...

They would have, but Carmack is busy trying to get to space. No wonder Doom 3 hasn't been released yet.

Close but not quite. It has to be capable of carrying three, but only has to carry one, plus the equivalent weight in ballast of the two other people.

From the X-Prize rules page:

The flight vehicle must be flown twice within a 14-day period. Each flight must carry at least one person, to minimum altitude of 100 km (62 miles). The flight vehicle must be built with the capacity (weight and volume) to carry a minimum of 3 adults of height 188 cm (6 feet 2 inches) and weight 90 kg (198 pounds) each. Three people of this size or larger must be able to enter, occupy, and be fastened into the flight vehicle on Earth's surface prior to take-off, and equivalent ballast must be carried in-flight if the number of persons on-board during flight is less than 3 persons.

And #$$#$@#@, YES there is more work to it than just coming up with the damned sacrosanct idea. Have you not ever written code? The devil, the WORK, is in the details. Any writer will tell you this about his craft. I guaran-damn-tee you that writers spend far more time working out plot structures then working on the details of their "inventions." The inventions are plot tools. Devices for moving the friggin story along. If the writer really wanted the thing to materialize, he'd $#$(*&% BUILD it. See John Carmack.

After a tragic accident while chasing the X-prize, I had the capability to become the world's first bionic man. When I upgraded myself to the 2.6 kernel and added the ability to address more than 4 GB of memory, I became better, faster, stronger. Unfortunately, there are no open source drivers available for my robotic penis. Maybe sourceforge or freshmeat can help me out.

These guys are willing to pay up to $10,000,000 of your funeral expenses, provided you get your corpse up there yourself!

At least 27 or so as of now. And if the gov't got the hell outta the way so it was easier to get up there privately, who is to say that number wouldn't grow?

Just remeber, there is no problem the gov't can't make worse.

"Pitch and roll will be the only flight control functions and a signal to abort the passenger may be added."

One year ago tomorrow, I posted in my weblog:

I hope to God that we don't go through another day like this. We will, though, and just like we did 17 years ago -- and 19 years before that -- we'll come out on the other side, a little saddened, but ready to take the next step and move ahead, never forgetting the memory of those who have preceded us in time but do not join us on the road ahead.

I still believe that. Bush's Mars program may or may not be the best way to go, and NASA may still need to figure out what it's really going to do about the Hubble, but the public is still talking about space exploration, the latest batch of Mars probes are capturing the imagination of the entire world, the X-Prize is still going strong, and we're making progress. The naming of the landing sites and nearby hills after those who gave their lives in this endeavor was a wonderful touch. We're ready to move forward.

Good idea, except the "private entrepreneurs" don't have the funds [...]

Yes they do. Check out the X-Prize.

[...] we will find a situation like the AT&T monopoly -- huge prices, bad service, unfair competition, etc.

The AT&T monopoly was a terrible example of privitization, I agree, but in those rare instances when such things happen, the Monopolies Commission steps in and makes sure that there is a competitive environment. And look at the phone companies now: there is so much pressure and so much competition from cell phones that land line prices are dropping like the proverbial stones! They're even offering unlimited long distance plans, unheard of only five years ago.

[...] science is better off today because of commercial research and the applications of that research, but after a while it stagnates. Think about the gasoline engine. We could have much better engines, but it is profitable to the auto makers and gasoline companies to make them less fuel efficient and require more maintenance. I don't want to see a plateau like this in space travel.

I wouldn't want to see that stagnation happen, either. But even now, car companies are starting to produce cars that have lower emissions, are covered by warrantees to 100,000 miles, and even run on hybrid engines. Why did this happen? Because the customers started to want it, and the companies needed to follow their customers' wants/needs or they would die in a competitive environment. Thus the private sector continues to innovate because the force behind their existence (customers' wallets) asked for it.

Besides, NASA has been stagnating in human space endeavors for 35 years. Congress doesn't seem too fired up about it, so we look to alternatives for exploring space: entrepreneurs with passion. The megacorps won't do it, because there's no return on their investment yet. The technology is still very much in the prototype stage. If every airline had to invent, design, test, and build their own airplane, there wouldn't be very many companies jumping at the chance. But since they can buy one from Boeing for a few hundred million, which they know they will easily make back, it's a sound investment. The airline industry didn't really take off (pardon the pun) until a full two decades of airplane research and development, both by the military and by barnstormers, had been completed. Since we know military development of space is out of the question (thanks to the Outer Space Treaty of 1967) we have to look to the barnstormers (spacestormers?) to further that development.

NASA is not going to die. Most people seem to forget that NASA stands for National Aeronautics and Space Administration. There's an awful lot more going on than a few robotic probes and shuttle launches.

What is abundantly clear, however, is that Bush's "space initiative" is nothing more than smoke and mirrors designed to boost his approval ratings. Let's crunch a few numbers: Bush's plan set aside an additional $12 billion for developing a "Saturn Mark II" launch vehicle with a capsule capable of landings on both the Moon and Mars. Not only is the number ridiculous, but so is the method for obtaining the funds. Bush claims that $1 billion will be allocated by Congress, and the additional $11 billion will be found by restructuring NASA, including ending shuttle flights. So we'll finish up the station by 2010, auction the shuttles on eBay, and be on the Moon by 2015? Riiiight. First of all, NASA won't have any free funds from ending the shuttle program until at least 2010 when the station is complete, and then that only leaves 5 years for development of a completely new vehicle and support system. Even then, the shuttle's budget is only about $4 billion. The remaining $7 billion will have to be earned by cutting into NASA's remaining $11 billion. So once again, the Aeronautics branch of NASA is getting the shaft in favor of a bloated and fatally optimistic manned space program. Sound familiar? It's the shuttle all over again.

Since the federal government seems to be waffling on what it thinks NASA should be doing, I am in favor of a much less glamorous "bottom-up" approach to space exploration. Let the private entrepreneurs build simple craft to get us barely out of the atmosphere. From there, the craft get slightly more sophisticated, and through the magic of technological evolution from several sources, we end up exploring the solar system in ways we can't even dream of now. We can parallel this growth to that of the internet: it started as a large, well funded government program (ARPANET), but it wasn't until the little guy started to find commercial opportunities that it really took off (Amazon, anyone?) If we had relied on the DoD to create the internet for us, we'd be stuck with an online copy of the Library of Congress, distributed through a huge router the size of a steel factory and transmitting over a 9600 baud connection.

While Bush has his head in the sand, the X-Prize and the X-Prize Cup will be ruling the upper atmosphere! I plan on retiring at the Shady Craters Lunar Resort.

And, to keep this little tirade on topic:
The Hubble Telescope has performed beautifully and well beyond its intended lifespan. There are other, better space telescopes in the works. Let's save the shuttle flight for station hardware and let the telescope retire with dignity.

Wait until these guys see Space travel costs skyrocket (!) down to a mere commodity amusement ride price. They're gonna be sore in the pocket.

Hopefully the XPrize will help make things cheaper.

The headline should state that, according to XPrize website, this is the first manned supersonic flight onboard a plane designed by a small private company. That is really impressive and is a great achievement just 100 years after the Wright brothers first flight. Nice birthday present !

100 years ago manned flight was a hot technology, today everybody can jump on a plane (as long as you have the money but its cheaper and cheaper). Today supersonic flight is a hot technology for the masses so it will maybe become commonplace in the years to come...

The biggest point is not the altitude here because 68000 feet is quite 'easy' to reach (although its really impressive too) and going from 68000 to 330000 feet is gonna be way way way more difficult. But everything needs a beginning and that's a very nice one.

Congratulations to the Scaled Composite team for this astonishing result... This plane is a very cool piece of engineering.

This X-Prize is definitely becoming more and more interesting, I have to admit that I never though it was possible for a team to go so far !

The biggest problem with achieving orbital space flight isn't getting there but getting back (as the Columbia shuttled disaster demonstrated) in one piece. If stuff like heat shielding weren't a concern, Elon Musk's satellite launchers would probably be enough to rocket a suicidally minded space nut into outer space.

I don't know of any private entity seriously attempting a crewed orbital class spacecraft.

Glad to see work is progressing with regard to on orbit repair. That's a capability which will benefit all kinds of future activity in space.

I don't know, though, about a shuttle replacement becoming less likely though. NASA might not come up with a replacement (think National Aerospace Plane, X-33) but teams now competing for the X Prize could very well produce an orbital vehicle down the line.

If a small group can win the X Prize, it will show a better way to pursue space engineering than NASA's dysfunctional bureaucracy. Such a win will lead people to start investing real money in new space technology. It's already known that if we can reduce the cost to orbit from $10K/pound ($20K/kilo) to around $1K/pound ($2K/kilo) lots of opportunities will arise for space based activity. Get that price down to $10/pound (if possible) and you see people like me taking off for orbit to do things like create art. At that lower price we might even see zero gravity dance like that envisioned by Spider and Jeanne Robinson. The possibilities are truly endless.

How could one stop research in so important area of science called rocket engines?

How a government could to that?

There seems to be some kind of plot in it
(from Bruce Simpson's page):

The strange thing is that just a matter of months ago, they told me I could export the very same technology to Iran -- despite the fact that it is widely considered to be a terrorist sponsor and similar exports are prohibited in the USA.

And then the government decided shut it down.

Note also that israeli x prize team recruits serious brainpower.

If things are not about money (or sex) then politics must be involved.

I hope that such a genius person as Bruce will either join Xprize or find another way to continue his very important for science work on rocket engines.

How could one stop research in so important area of science called rocket engines?

How a government could to that?

There seems to be some kind of plot in it
(from Bruce Simpson's page):

The strange thing is that just a matter of months ago, they told me I could export the very same technology to Iran -- despite the fact that it is widely considered to be a terrorist sponsor and similar exports are prohibited in the USA.

And then the government decided shut it down.

Note also that israeli x prize team recruits serious brainpower.

If things are not about money (or sex) then politics must be involved.

I hope that such a genius person as Bruce will either join Xprize or find another way to continue his very important for science work on rocket engines.

So they have a license to launch something they haven't built or even finished designing? I think my money is still on Burt Rutan.

With X Prize successes possibly being one year away, it sounds like a good opportunity to help this new industry.

With X Prize successes possibly being one year away, it sounds like a good opportunity to help this new industry.

So if it's so easy to put a man in space, how's your X prize entry going? Or are you too busy being smug?

Historical Analog: By 1929, governments, individuals, newspapers and major corporations had offered more than 50 major aeronautical prizes. Among them was the Orteig Prize, a $25,000 cash prize sponsored by a wealthy hotel owner, Raymond Orteig, for the first person or persons to fly non-stop between New York and Paris. The Orteig Prize stimulated not one, but nine separate attempts to cross the Atlantic. To initiate the flights, competitors raised and spent some $400,000, or 16 times the amount of the prize. As a result of these early aviation prizes, the world's $250 Billion aviation industry was created. The X PRIZE hopes to spur the creation of a vibrant commercial space industry through the $10M competition.

Historical Analog: By 1929, governments, individuals, newspapers and major corporations had offered more than 50 major aeronautical prizes. Among them was the Orteig Prize, a $25,000 cash prize sponsored by a wealthy hotel owner, Raymond Orteig, for the first person or persons to fly non-stop between New York and Paris. The Orteig Prize stimulated not one, but nine separate attempts to cross the Atlantic. To initiate the flights, competitors raised and spent some $400,000, or 16 times the amount of the prize. As a result of these early aviation prizes, the world's $250 Billion aviation industry was created. The X PRIZE hopes to spur the creation of a vibrant commercial space industry through the $10M competition.

Nice idea, but the X-prize competition is not anywhere near on par with a real space transport vehicle. The X-Prize is sub-orbital--you only have to go 100km up, which is well short of orbital altitude--and most of the teams are designing their vehicles to just make it past this threshold. Don't look for the X-Prize competitors to build a new shuttle anytime soon.

Check this drawing from the X-prize site to see how high they really have to go.

Actually, yes, the shuttle was suppose to be that way, but Nixon decided that it was too much money up Front.


Now legendary Burt Rutan is doing it.
I suspect that he is scaling up that design to go into orbit, bus suspect is different than knowing.

enter this design in the X-prize competition and win themselves $10 million.

Historical Analog: By 1929, governments, individuals, newspapers and major corporations had offered more than 50 major aeronautical prizes. Among them was the Orteig Prize, a $25,000 cash prize sponsored by a wealthy hotel owner, Raymond Orteig, for the first person or persons to fly non-stop between New York and Paris. The Orteig Prize stimulated not one, but nine separate attempts to cross the Atlantic. To initiate the flights, competitors raised and spent some $400,000, or 16 times the amount of the prize. As a result of these early aviation prizes, the world's $250 Billion aviation industry was created. The X PRIZE hopes to spur the creation of a vibrant commercial space industry through the $10M competition.

Historical Analog: By 1929, governments, individuals, newspapers and major corporations had offered more than 50 major aeronautical prizes. Among them was the Orteig Prize, a $25,000 cash prize sponsored by a wealthy hotel owner, Raymond Orteig, for the first person or persons to fly non-stop between New York and Paris. The Orteig Prize stimulated not one, but nine separate attempts to cross the Atlantic. To initiate the flights, competitors raised and spent some $400,000, or 16 times the amount of the prize. As a result of these early aviation prizes, the world's $250 Billion aviation industry was created. The X PRIZE hopes to spur the creation of a vibrant commercial space industry through the $10M competition.

Dude, it's this.

India wants only to reach Pakistan. No race there either.

Israel has so much foes just around the corner that trebuchet will suffice.

Brazil? What would they hurl in the ICBM nose cone at ... Albania? A letter containing portuguese harsch words?

Your list missed the most obvious ICBM race.

X-Prize

There ya go, a working link to the X-Prize site.

I'm sure I will now be modded into oblivion. Enjoy!

If I remember coeectly, the SS1 was designed to handle an expected 5.5 G's or so upon "re-entry".

Besides Burt Rutan is a genius, so it has to work. ;)

Incidentally, if Slashdot doesn't post info about the Xprize often enough for you, we (my design firm) just launched some message boards on the site. Hit www.xprize.org/messageboard to join in the fun. __________________________

There is a full list of the teams at the x-price website. From the PDF file found there it appers that most of the "serious" contenders are based in either North America or Europe, but then the majority of the teams are from there anywhere (could be many reasons for that). A notable exception which I - with my reasonsable limited knowhow of building and launching manned rockets - believe might create a viable launchvehicle, is the Gauchito (The Little Cowboy) from Argentina.

Mind you, there are a few of the contestants who are rather barmy, and since most of the entries are from the western world, most of the oddballs are from there as well. Check out Micro Space, a somewhat redneck, risky way to get suborbital (more info at their own site, including info on how they plan on using scuba-gear to survive in the rarified atmosphere up there).

There is a full list of the teams at the x-price website. From the PDF file found there it appers that most of the "serious" contenders are based in either North America or Europe, but then the majority of the teams are from there anywhere (could be many reasons for that). A notable exception which I - with my reasonsable limited knowhow of building and launching manned rockets - believe might create a viable launchvehicle, is the Gauchito (The Little Cowboy) from Argentina.

Mind you, there are a few of the contestants who are rather barmy, and since most of the entries are from the western world, most of the oddballs are from there as well. Check out Micro Space, a somewhat redneck, risky way to get suborbital (more info at their own site, including info on how they plan on using scuba-gear to survive in the rarified atmosphere up there).

There is a full list of the teams at the x-price website. From the PDF file found there it appers that most of the "serious" contenders are based in either North America or Europe, but then the majority of the teams are from there anywhere (could be many reasons for that). A notable exception which I - with my reasonsable limited knowhow of building and launching manned rockets - believe might create a viable launchvehicle, is the Gauchito (The Little Cowboy) from Argentina.

Mind you, there are a few of the contestants who are rather barmy, and since most of the entries are from the western world, most of the oddballs are from there as well. Check out Micro Space, a somewhat redneck, risky way to get suborbital (more info at their own site, including info on how they plan on using scuba-gear to survive in the rarified atmosphere up there).

Seriously, though, once one group has succeeded, what is the immediate benefit to other groups who may succeed afterwards?

I think the benefits to any group capable of fulfilling the x-prize requirements (carry three people 62.5 miles up into space) would be enormous. The X-Prize Foundation states that "For more than 30 years, the general public has waited for an opportunity to enjoy the space frontier on a first-hand basis. The X PRIZE Foundation is working to make space travel possible for all." People realize that ALOT of money could be made sending tourists to space. From the article, 15,000 people a year would pay $100,000 for a 15-minute suborbital trip by 2021. That doesn't sound bad at all for a small euntrepreneur. Granted, it's not exactly an IMMEDIATE benefit, but I think it might be worth it in the long run

The X Prize Foundation has thought of that. The are working to set up a "racing" event for passenger-carrying spaceships, with contenders trying to win categories like fastest turnaround time, highest altitude, and numbers of passengers. They are hoping to get big sponsors that are now active in Formula 1, Indycars, and such.

>his last launch of his Nova apparently used a cluster of Aerotech M-class or similar motors

That's correct, he used solids -- but only for that launch in 2001 . If you look at the Starchaser web-site, the Nova launch was to verify the airframe, electronics, recovery, etc. You can think of the solid engines as a one-time crutch to get the rocket off the ground. Now that the more powerful liquids are ready, the next Nova launch will be equipped with those.

>...he has apparently threatened...I'll check with the guys who went to his open
day, they seemed to know a whole bunch.

Wow, that does sound bad. If you find out more, please tell me.

>They said (rather amusingly), that the liquid engine was probably just about good enough for clearing weeds, and not much else.

Looking at the press release, "the liquid oxygen/kerosene powered system generated 2,200 kilograms (app. 4,800 pounds) of thrust for 15 seconds...Starchaser plans to continue testing the Churchill Mark 2, for longer periods of time." That's hardly a mere weed whacker. In fact, I think Carmack's main engine is about the same thrust too (and Carmack hasn't even test fired it, due to lack of peroxide).

>This capsule drop test - looks a bit like a powered parafoil trike with an airframe around it, doesn't it?

I'm not quite sure how appearance matters, as long as it works. And it does work, Starchaser claims.

>Burt Rutan and John Carmack are no doubt, not exactly losing sleep at this point.

Well, of course not. Rutan and Carmack will definitely beat Bennett. But that doesn't mean Bennett won't ever fly -- he will.

My money is on Canadian Arrow. In addition to being from my country, they have already test fired their engines, the most important part of a rocket. The Rutan boys could work, but no one has ever done what they are trying. The rocket approach is tried and true.

5. The crew must return to the Earth's surface from both flights in good health as reasonably defined and judged by the X PRIZE Review Board. The flight vehicle must return from both flights substantially intact, as defined by and in the sole judgment of the X PRIZE Review Board, such that the vehicle is reusable.

My money is still on the Rutan boys and their Scaled Composites entry.

They're the only ones who have shown credible progress in respect to actually getting a craft flying towards the heavens. Most of the other X-Prize entrants are either playing with models or dreaming :-)

Those incidents you refer to were all several years ago. Starchaser has definitely improved its reputation since then, for its three recent major accomplishments in the last 24 months have all been positive:
37-ft. Nova rocket blasts off!
Churchill liquid engine test success
Nova II capsule test drop success
The next few months will be very exciting. Starchaser plans to integrate all three of the above accomplishments in one project: the manned launch of the Nova rocket -- outfitted with the new Churchill engines -- carrying the Nova II capsule as payload!

Don't blame the rest of us for your education - high schools in Norway actualy covers the orbital mechanics as a special subset of the mechanics of movement if you pick natural sciences as one of your classes...

Anyway, the X-price is a competition to build and launch a 'spaceship' carreing 3 people to a minimum height of 100 kilometer (abb. km or just k) twice in the course of two weeks. Deploying a chute while 62.5 miles up in the air isn't all that smart - either you'll rip the chute or use a long time and a lot of crossrange to get down - so some for of thermal protection system ought to be included in the design. Since we're not talking orbital speeds here, this needs to be much less beefy than for a spacecraft designed for fully orbital capacity. Initiall breaking of the capsule is likely to be aerodynamic - as the capsule plunges into the denser atmosphere the drag will increase and eitehr slow it down or at least limit the terminal velocity.

For a more extrem take at the X-price, look at Micro Space, three guys in scubagear with parachutes...

OK, NASA still looks screwed up.

Possibilities we must consider:

• Space travel is really beyond us.
• Space travel is beyond current day NASA. Given current management problems, that is looking increasingly likely. The Washington Post now has a special section on the Columbia disaster.

What should we (the United States in particular and humanity in general) be doing?

• One thing is support the X Prize. This will provide alternative experience and data to the NASA monopoly. The more attempts we make, the better. The greater the variety, the better.
• Since NASA is a U.S. government creation, U.S. citizens should write their Congressional representatives, citing articles such as this one by Jeff Bell and the Washington Post section linked to above. It's time for some light and heat to be shed on this agency.
• Look for investment opportunities if you have the money.

Why not just support the X prize project

Ten Gs? That's an insane amount, enough to kill any human, that's for sure.

I still think the X-Prize starlights belongs to Scaled Composities and their White Knight/SpaceShipOne

Working on it: Xprize

The major cost for launching payloads to orbit (or, in NASA's case "costloads") isn't in the fuel to get there but in the price of the vehicle, all or part of which is always expendible, and the infrastructure that supports the launch (much of which is required, some of which is unnecessary).

The advent of a fully-reusable launch vehicle will dramatically reduce the cost to send mass to orbit. Check out the X-Prize site, a much-referenced "project" on Slashdot, for some information. Google for more if you're unconvinced.

with a high-altitude balloon as a "first stage" would rock....And be cheaper.

Go JC go!