Slashdot Mirror
Brazilian Rocket Explodes on Launch Pad
steman writes "BBC News Online says that 16 people have been killed and a Brazillian space rocket was destroyed in an explosion in Brazil. It seems that the space race is heating up again, with many countries getting involved such as China, Europe and Japan to name just three. Will the future of space exploration be dominated by names other than Russia and the USA?"
is Europe just one contry? I'm all for conciceness, and yes, Europe is becoming peaceful and in many ways a single, strong political force, but the contries in Europe are far from being a single contry.
Wow... someone forgot to send me that memo
Oh well, at least he spelled it right. One miracle at a time.
Can someone please change the insinuation in the text that Europe is a country? For heavens' sake, I thought it was just braindead American tourists that visit our "country" who thought this, not Slashdot editors.
So. About a year ago, give or take a little, a NASA shuttle breaks apart and goes kaboom on re-entry. A couple of fucking big articles appear on slarshdot, it's like a national day of mourning is declared and shit. That's OK -- after all, people died and the US warmongering neo-conservative bureaucrat assholes got yet another reason to cut funding to space exploration and related technologies.
But now, a Brazilian launch vehicle explodes, on the pad no less (think Challenger, only a bit sooner) and all those 16 dead people merit are one measly link, a couple of phrases in a slashdot heading (half of which is speculation about the future of missions to space from an unbelievably US-centric viewpoint) and not much else. Like, what the fuck?
I guess we might not get to see the remake of Amazon Women on The Moon too soon.
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
I have to wonder why everyone wants to send a manned rocket into space ?
Is it some kind of "we can too" ?
The space race was originally between USSR and USA, do other countries feel they need to spend so much money in order to feel on par with the USA ?
I think they could spend the money elsewhere improving the living conditions for their nationals.
Since European carrier rockets are in their fifth generation now, I wouldn't consider them "news".
Europe has sent things up into space for quite a while now...
The day columbia came down, I was talking to a friend of mine and for some reason it occurred to me (trying to cheer her up) to say "at least they pulled off a sucessful mission up to that point". It was just my way of trying to see the silver lining (and I still feel that way), but she glared at me like I was the most callous prick in the world.
Sorry, but mankind will never achieve anything in space if we're not willing to sacrifice lives and money to get there. I salute the brave men and women with the courage and the talent to go, especially these Brazilians who have the balls to keep trying these dangerous satellite launches under a new space program.
To the relatives of the ones who died sincere appologies and heart felt sympathy. I am sure most slash dotters would say this also. We grieve your loss and hope there will be peace for your loved ones.
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
A morte do representante das Nacoes Unidas no Iraqe ... e agora isto. Uma semana triste na nossa historia.
This will take at least a few more decades.
Not if this things get blown un while still in the ground!
Quite right!
My sympathies to the families.
These things are essentially big bombs. No matter how many tests people do, there is always the slight possibility that something like this can happen. Hopefully they'll be able to find the cause and work on that for their next launch.
Competition is a good motivator, and hopefully this will motivate other countries to go up into space.
// file: mice.h
#include "frickin_lasers.h"
If anyone else has the technological and financial backbone to fund space programs, then certainly other countries/continents will be major players in the decades to come.
It's certainly a positive that governments besides the U.S. and Russia are willing to go into space. Hopefully this Brazilian explosion won't setback their program too much.
Just wanted to express my sympathies to the family and friends of those who lost their lives. To quote President Reagan when he spoke to the nation about the Challenger shuttle explosion, "The future doesn't belong to the faint-hearted; it belongs to the brave."
I'm hoping the Chinese have some serious success in their announced manned space program. Perhaps that will incentivize the U.S. to get off their butts and start doing some serious exploration.
Will the future of space exploration be dominated by names other than Russia and the USA?
Not with exploding rockets they won't.
In the long run, the US and Russia alone cannot run the International Space Station....they just cant afford it. This will give other nations a change to chip in.
Ofcourse this being /., there will be a barrage of posts saying that China, Brazil, India, etc. should concentrate on feeding their people and improving human rights situation. So much for intelligent, objective conversations...sigh.
There is no patch for stupidity
Visit my blog
"Will the future of space exploration be dominated by names other than Russia and the USA?"
WTF? Where did this line come from?
It didn't even get off the launch pad!
-- james
Is this what they call "poster's remorse"?
Sending humans to space is, for now, a waste of life, time, and money. Payloads are of more strategic importance.
This shouldn't be flamebait.
Stop writing "contry", you are hurting my eyes!
It's an unpopular, but valid viewpoint that has to be said and considered, not swept under the -1, Flamebait carpet.
Not only is australlia it's own country-continent... EUROPE too?!?!?! What's next? Asia?
Will the future of space exploration be dominated by names other than Russia and the USA?
Apparently not, they need to not blowup first. Yeah yeah, we blew (US) blew up recently but at least we got up. Not to mention we've been up there how many times? Since when?
_________ Help me get a PSP!
Perhaps a maintenance crewman answered his cellphone
while filling up the tank?
Considering the vast majority of people in our country call themselves "Americans," I should hope not...
Will the future of space exploration be dominated by names other than Russia and the USA?"
In a word: yes.
We see more and more countries involved in space exploration. USA and Russia are not the only players anymore.
Russia is out of money so they can't have ambitious project.
USA are founding the NASA less and less. This is a pity. Maybe this will change in the future. If it happen, USA will make a comeback in space exploration
Now many countries want to do space exploration and are willing to trow money in it. This is a good thing because this will speed up the space exploration race. But USA will now have competition not only from russia but from many country.
What will be real great is when there will be private corporation involved in space exploration. Anyone could think of a business model involving space exploration?
Good points!
By Nihon Keizai Shinun, the number of death has reached 21. Other 20 persons are heavily wounded. It's tragedy for everyone.
I predict that someday, one of these 'newcomers' to the space race will invent some radical new concept in the design/manufacture/launching of rockets, that will eventually be adopted by the USA and others. But they, too, will suffer their share of failures along the way.
Condolences to the people killed/injured and their families, and hoping they did not die in vain and the Brazilian Space Program and all others will continue.
Okay, the writing is a little sloppy.
However, the slip was understandable in this case given that for the purposes of space exploration and research Europe acts as if it were a single country through the ESA.
Also, calling Europe a country is really just extrapolating based upon current trends. EU member states have given a surprising amount of sovereignty away to the union as a whole, and the current setup looks like it invites a gradual erosion of national sovereignty in favor of centralized power.
Of course, significant cultural differences may slow unification, but increased immigration rates needed to compensate for falling native birth rates may quickly reduce cultural differences between European countries.
I expect the EU to essentially be a single country within my lifetime.
Do Europeans forsee an inevitable centralization of power until the EU acts like a central country, or is there a limiting factor to centralization that I missed?
Hey, maybe we could get Lance Bass on one of those flights!
They are involved for quite long time now. ever heard of ESA?
But yeah, please, you are welcome to compare Chinese, Japanese and Brazilian space programs with the European one. Americans....
The USA can afford to build and run the International Space Station, it just lacks the political will to provide adequate funding. Farm subsidies receive more money than NASA.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Does it strike anyone else as odd that this "article" starts off "16 people were killed" and then goes blithely into "blah blah new space race blah"? It's much like saying "Columbia broke up today killing the crew; does this herald new and interesting replacements for the space shuttle?".
Even the page title is "Brazilian Rocket Explodes on Launch Pad". Really bizarre, some people's priorities. I guess we can be grateful for the small grace that no 'merkins were killed, sparing the world a maudlin television remembrance.
You know, I was all ready to harp on you for saying "incentivize", but dictionary.com says it's a word. Stupid American Heritage Dictionary. Sheesh, next thing you know, "veep" will be a word....
(Look it up.)
...Europe is a country... Europe is a country... Europe is a country...
Does Europe have oil? no?? "HA-ha...".. Europe is boring.. Europe is boring.. Let's get back to the BBQ..
Maybe it's the no-brand batteries they got from the flea market?
The more countries that sign on, the better. Space exploration, limited to one or two countries, or those who control the ballot, is doomed to die. Will we succumb to Space: the Highest Bidder? or will it be: Space Whoever Gets There First?
I personally bet on Who Gets There First.
They hold a grudge against (the country) europe because their ancestors couldn't afford to stay at the center of the world.
I'm fucking crying here. Reuters, CNN, and id's site are all talking about this explosion right now. John Carmack and Rob Spindler (a competing X prizer) were both on the pad with the brasillian engineers when this happened, and they as of yet can not find anything. They are 90% assumed everyone on the pad is now dead.
Hm... Do you refer to yourself as an American then?
PS: Either way, I'd say your post is probably a little hypocritical.
PPS: I'm an American.
..so the americans have figured out that Europe is a single country..
I wonder how long it will take the americans to find oil in Europe that requires them to shutdown ESA by heavy bombing and other games.
Nil.
Condolencas pra o meus irmaos do Brasi :,-(
``L'imagination au povoir.''
In some ways, a country like the UK has less independent power than Texas, as the EU regulates particularly economic matters more than the federal US government
In most ways, conversely, the EU member states are more independent than US states (e.g. they each have their own army - UK did not need EU approval to send troops to Iraq)
The interesting point is that there is no limit to the power that will be centralised in the EU, and an assumption that every few years a new round of treaties will centralise power further. The treaties are full of the phrase "Ever Closer Union", and explicitly prevent seccession. (To the best of my knowledge, the equivalent question in the USA was, um, unclear until 1861-65).
Obligatory plug (though my membership lapsed some years ago): UKIP
I could not think of a better incentive for a Space Race than other countries competing. We have "Made it to the Moon" (depending on who you ask)...there are many many other countries out there who have yet to get off this planet. Technology is expanding beyond this planet - 25, 50 years. I'll still be alive. Let's see what happens.
LOL thanks for the chuckle. The Brazillian woman sound like they suck too. I think they should be the first to put a micro-bikini into space.
You say, "When it comes to sex, the women are fucking Olympians?" What exactly do you mean? I live in Olympia, Washington, and I am ready to change my travel plans if you can confirm this for me.
what's your favorite word? I get a real kick out of "cacophonous" lately.
History of Ariane 4
Oh. Right. We're putting coversheets on our TPS reports, now.
There's a shedload of reasons mostly to do with resources and military advantage.
Raw materials can be extracted and processed on a scale we can't imagine yet, imagine an area the size of Manhatten Island as one huge mining / refining plant chugging away 24/7 with no impact on Earth's environment.
Electricity could be generated on an unimaginable scale, again little or no impact to our biosphere.
The military advantages are truly scary though. Whoever holds the high ground, especially in the Earth-Moon system effectively rules the world. All they have to do is throw a rock in your direction. A very big rock from a very high place. By the time it hit the Earth's surface it would've picked up a huge kinetic energy payload. Depending on the size of the rock we could be talking hundreds of megatonnes explosive yield. With no ABC fallout or legacy except for a bloody big smoking hole in the ground.
If Bush had a weapon like that do you think he'd hesitate to use it ? The only delay would be while he decided which small country to splat first, a few seconds might be added if he tried to pronounce it's name.
100% of nothing is still nothing. I do not believe that the "social buzzcut" nerds are what the country, or any country, needs. We need new thinkers, new philosiphizers, people who are unafraid to think for themselves. We need people who are not bound by the tenets of society, people who can truly "think for themselves." People who unafraid to question authority. We need people who are unafraid to voice their opinions. We need the general people. Think of Aristotle. We bow to him as the Master of Those Who Know. We did not bow to him as the only alternative - rather, we bowed to him as the one who can describe the alternative.
br And the alternative to order is chaos.
Sex with a Brazilian woman
or
Sex with a mare?
Man U DO SUCK.
U can't talk about a whole country like this. I will never say that all americans suck. I've been to america, and lived in europe four years. So, I know a lot about other countries and I'm not talking shit. What the fuck? get your bags and go back to the home of the brave, the perfect country, the one that shows no respect for others and think they are the best... WTF you're doing here with these people you hate... get the fuck out of here... punhetero!
Around twenty lives vanished in a tragedy and this is what you have to say, Michael? I've never whinged over your snide comments, but this is just too callous.
Use ISO 8601 dates [YYYY-MM-DD]
Competition promotes rivals. Without the Space Race, we will not colonize, and there is only One Space left for colonists. Space is truly the next generation - we are hopeless, and hopeful, when we try to control the next generation of human expansion. What happened last time? The United States broke off from England. My prediction is that we will see a new rash of nationalism, supported by those countries that suppport Imperialism. Vote Dean, 2004. No, this is not a political message. Read the message. Think For Yourself. Question Authority.
I congratulate them on daring to step beyond this little world and dare something new. It failed, but that is no reason to give up. They have an equatorial launch site, enough money and trained technicians to do more.
Humanity will never reach space unless it is attempted by multiple nations. Their technicians should be on the roll call of heroes who died to give us Space. I envy them what they did with their lives.
Um... I think Chandler said it best, "Can: open, worms: everywhere."
Why was Sputnik's space flight important in the fifties?
Because if you can reach orbit it means you can also send a missile into ballistic trajectory and deliver a payload (read: warhead) anywhere aroud the globe, including US.
SDI defence did not work in the 1980's, and there's nothing to indicate it will work in this time either.
Everytime some country develops orbital capabilities it means that it is much more difficult to exert military pressure against them. One can of course b*tch, moan and call them names.
This question implies that space exploration in the past was dominated by the two superpowers. From a manned spaceflight perspective, this implication is quite correct; but from an unmanned perspective, it is rather inaccurate. Over the last three decades, a large proportion of the activity in unmanned space exploration has been undertaken by countries other than two superpowers. And let's not forget that, unlike most unmanned misisons, the moon race was about politics, not science.
Looking towards the future, quite a bit of the exploration of our solar system involves both USA/Russia and other countries, either in collaboration or in competition. Particular missions to keep an eye on include:
So, we can see that there is a lot going on at the moment in the field of space exploration. Over the past few days, I've been watching HBO's "From the Earth to the Moon", and its made me regret that I wasn't alive during the space race. But, on reflection, there is plenty going on right now to get excited about!
Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
Never said I hated them. On the contrary, as people, they are fun to hang out with.
But I don't want them building any rockets/planes/automobiles I might ever use someday.
Being a nice person, or enjoyable company, doesn't make one a good engineer. I'll gladly go drinking with a Brazilian, but if I'm going to be launched into space, I want a German/Russian/Japanese/American designed craft, NOT one from a Da Silva.
Fuck man, the Embraer Bandeirante has THE HIGHEST crash rate of ANY commercial jetliner IN HISTORY!(Concorde factored out)
Designed by who? BRAZILIANS! Built by who? BRAZILIANS!
But no, it's just a fluke, right? Brazilian mentatlity couldn't have ANYTHING to do with this, right?
I'll sip a caipirinha anyday, but I wouldn't set foot on an Embraer.
Now go ahead and deny the FACTS. Brazilians are GREAT at that.
"Study your math, kids. Key to the universe." -The Archangel Gabriel
"Will the future of space exploration be dominated by names other than Russia and the USA?"
Why would the addition of new spacefaring nations exclude others? There is plenty of room in space. It is not a zero-sum game - successes do not have to come at the expense of others. Let all who have the desire to reach for the stars do so.
Yeah, that's pretty much everyone's image of Brazilians.
-- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
They should stick to things they know about like tacos and siestas.
$222.4 billion
Bram Stolk http://stolk.org/tlctc/
i think that the other countries are discovering that there is a learning curve. i remember reading that china, india, brazil, etc were planning this and that. we (america) did a serveral missions that just put someone in space or in orbit before we went to the moon. if i remember correctly we sent animals up before that. it seems that a lot of people are trying to run before they learned to walk or even crawl.
if you look at the history of the russian space program there are examples where they were in a hurry to get into space and a *lot* of people died. they lost over 100 people on one launch attempt, largely to incredible stupidity!
in a very sad way, this reminds me of compaq making printers. compaq got into making laser printers about 15 years late. they have very smart engineers and were on track to make good printers, but were in too much of a hurry. it was noted that the compaq laser printers suffered from some operational problems that hp had solved years before.
i wish all people looking up the best and hope that they don't give up.
eric
Arianespace, Europe's commercial launch service, estimates its marketshare in the satellite launch business to be 50%. In that light it is a little yesterdayish to ask if there will be other players but USA and Russia in the future of space exploration. Plus it is not unlikely, despite the current trend in the US to go alone and try to become as independent as possible, that future space missions will require new levels of global cooperation to become feasible economically and know-how wise.
The race to space and to the Moon between Russia and the US had political motivations, but these two countries achieved much more by competition than by any other way. Cooperation, sadly, is not enough to raise enough funds and take risky decisions.
Western European countries had political goals too (avoid dependance on the US), but competition was good there too : AFAIK, Ariane 4 was cheaper and safer than any other launchers for bug satellites (I don't know the market now).
Brazil, India, China, Japan, Israel, have space programs. Motivation are nationalism, security, sometimes science, a need to launch alone military satellites, demonstration of power to scare enemies, but we may all profit of this in the long term (cheap satellites, tourism on the Moon, scientists on Mars...).
I hope Brazil won't stop its program after this failure. If at first you don't succeed...
Christophe (Don't hesitate to point out my spelling and grammar mistakes, I want to learn - Thanks).
There seems to be lots of interest for
3rd countries to be present in space. I bet
the most important motive is (as usual) for military
reasons. I don't just don't believe that
they just want to explore the plantes, look
at the starts, and benefit humanity in general.
It defies simple logic to think that
goverments who don't care if
their people drink safe water, or if their people
breath clean air, or if their people have
enough to eat will suddenly be interested
in acts of humanity. The only acts of humanity
they seems to understand is how to "liberate"
one another using weapons of mass destruction
based high above.
That depends... do I have to make the obvious "who is in office" remark?
... but none will remember the names of those brave 20 Brazillian rocket scientists who died today... and they had to work on much worst conditions than every other american / european / japanese scientist... Brazil does not expends tons of cash on space exploration like those other countries does... so they deserv much more respect.... they had to love their job... really...
... not Brazil... BRASIL...
everyone remembers the name of those "brave american explorers", but everybody forgets those "poor bastars down there".....
and yes, I live in Brasil.. BRASIL
- Orgulho de ser Brasileiro!!! - Ouviram do Ipiranga as margens placida de um povo heroico um brado retumbante...
Shit, man... you say you live in Brazil, and yet you mention Lambada when talking about it.
If you actually do live in Brazil, you've managed to live in complete isolation for at least a decade. You big troll, you.
...is not as black and white as we wish.
/.ers.
Capitalism.
Capital - Wealth in the form of money or property, used or accumulated in a business by a person, partnership, or corporation.
Almost all, if not all corporations in America are in the Business to Make Money. Money denotes how successful you are - the more money, the more successful. This belief is about to take a large monetary hit.
Look at Linux. In terms of corporate support, it has the one of the biggest names behind it: IBM. If IBM cannot defend itself against infringement of IP, then no one can. Linux introduces something into the Market that has not been there before. Linux is free - as long as you can Maintain a Linux Server. Pay thousands of dollars to MS to fix your problems that will be fixed in the free SP5 - or configure your own solution. Free vs. cost - hard decision. Choose wiselely, fellow
History shows that the nations that dominated were the ones that looked outwards, not inwards. In the 1600-1800, Europe was very dominate due to their navies. These allowed them to move all over the planet. Interestingly enough, many of the principles (ship building, etc) were not developed in europe. They simply took advantage of them. Why is this all of concern?
Russia and USA researched and developed much of today's rocket and space science. Other nations are now trying to not only join the space race, but wish to head for where the economy must turn to in the future. The Moon and eventually Mars. China will soon be launching men into space (oct). What most people have not paid attention to, is the size of the engines and the capsule itself. By the looks of it, China will be shooting for the moon in about 2-5 years, and I suspect 2. Due to early research by russia/USA/Europe, we have determined that south pole quite probably holds mineable water. Whoever gets it will almost likely lay claim to all of it and will be the next true space faring nation. Interestingly, Soviet Union lost the cold war and was bankrupted. USA is headed in that direction on its' own and will shortly not be able to afford to go either moon/mars.
As to Brasil's lose of both rocket and men, it is a tragedy, both national and worldwide. They are reaching out to develop and build not just a space program, but a nation. I do respect both. They lost 16 brave ppl who knew the real risks involved. In many ways this lose is more similar to Apollo 1 that to the shuttle's loses (which have more to do with administration budget cuts, than anything else). The apollo 1 was lost on the pad with 3 astronauts (grism, chaffe, and white) who burned up/aphixiated. It was a huge lost and just the thing to move us forward whereas the shuttle seem to move us backwards (sadly the X-33 would be moving to production in about another year, had W. not cut it.)
To these ppl, I mourn their loses and salute them. Hopefully, these lives will not be lost in vain, and the brazilian space program will move forward faster instead.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Europe is a peninsula of Asia.
The whole "Europe is a continent" thing is just an old wives tale of its formerly ignorant and barbaric natives ( whose own Asian ancestors had walked across the Asian continent to get there in the first place) that simply refuses to die.
Europe is simply a manmade socio-political region.
KFG
Actually Texas is a odd case, as It CAN secede,
as it was an independant Republic prior to becoming a state.
It can also split itself into up to 5 states.
There have been some interesting studies done (usually someones final year project in college) that makes it appear Texas would be a very powerful country in its own right if it did secede.
It's a fact that Europe is that continent that holds the most nations. The fact that more coutries are split up than unified (former Yugoslavia and former Tsjekoslovakia) is showing that the nations need to feel soverignety is stron. Thus I wouldn't be suprised to se the EU crumble and fall.
If pro and con are opposites, what is the opposite of progress?
Shuttle Columbia breaks up, killing 7. Several Slashdot articles, tons of coverage. Department: "we grieve".
Brazillian rocket explodes, killing 21. A single slashdot article, small articles in the world press. Department: "try, try again"??
Have some respect, FFS.
I will not let you say those things about my country
...
I am a true Brazillian
I know the truth about Brazil
yes, we have flaws, but we have strenghts too.. our space program is the most cost efective EVER.. we spent a fraction of what other countries have spent and accomplished great things
we don't have money to toss around like those world dominators up there... so we have to do it right, because we can't make mistakes
accidents happen... and I WILL NOT LET YOU BLAME YOUR FLAWED PERCEPTION OF MY COUNTRY BE THE EXPLANATION OF THE CAUSES OF THIS ACCIDENT
oh yes, I could say Columbia went bye-bye because US is a deorganized bunch of hamburgers eaters, and that they were lazy and overconfident, and forgot to check the thermal isolation on the wing... but I know that accidents happen. and we are humans, and humans make mistakes
so, SHUT UP,
I LOVE MY COUNTRY AND I WILL NOT LET YOU SAY STUPID SHIT ABOUT MY BIRTHPLACE
and now, some history class : the whole latin america was EXPLORED from the get go.. spanish and portuguese explorers came here, and took everything we had... wood, gold, minerals, everything... and a bunch of idiots from england dominated us for centuries robbing our money, and our economical and political independency.
with the US the colonization process was totally different. the explorers wanted a true colony. they came to the US to build a new country, and not to rob all the gold from the land.
so, if Brazil and other latin american ( and asian and african ) countries have economical and social dificulties there is only one we can blame : EUROPE. but not today's europe. 1500 europe and their ways...
but think about something.. the same think europeans did from 1500 to 1800 US is doing now, exploring other countries and other people
an example : in the 1800s, Paraguay was a GREAT , RICH country. so great and rich that it was threatening England ! so england financed a war and created reasons (remember the US report on Iraq weapons ? ) so Brazil could fight Paraguay. the war that destroied Paraguay and made Brazil forever knee deep in debts
please, learn some history people... it's a 500 year old problem...
After the Civil War, Texas had to be re-admitted to the United States , and I don't think those provisions were included then.
and stupid americans should stick with things they know.... NOTHING
stupid idiot
and there are no hombres here, nor siestas...
please... get a map, a history book and learn something you stupid idiot
Indeed.
I still don't see why'd you differ at all from your colleague in Ohio since you live almost as far from Alcantara (1000+ miles anyway). Presumably mere shagging with local natives doesn't make you a rocket scientist capable of giving authoritative analysis of brazillian space program.
For the crowd making witty comments how "it didn't event get off the launch pad", go and rent The Right Stuff. It gives nice humour ladden but accurate picture of USA's original struggle to get anything off the pad (original footage included). After a while they decided to inform the press only after the launch attempts, less eyes and cameras witnessing the explosions was less embarrassing.
And no it didn't blow up due to cellular while filling up. Given the data acquired by short keyboard jockeying the brazillian rocket is all solid rocket fuel based. A lesson to be learned for the brazillian space agency. SRBs are filthy (exhaustgases are toxic) and unpredictable (once lit cannot be shutdown until all fuel is burned). Of course cryogenic liquid rockets explode as well, especially when being developed by a new player, but at least the vehicle can be totally empty of fuel while manual labour is around.
Condolences to the families of lost one.
Wow, parent started at +1.
Then it got modded down to -1.
And now it's at +5.
Who knew that ?
..
.. and we KNOW how to use it.. don't worry
it's better than cape Canaveral and better that the other place in central asia
and who knew that US has agreements with Brazil to use this base to launch US sattelites ?
well, we have a great spot, and we will charge the use !
"I will not let you say those things about my country..."
...
Well, I already did, and there is really fuckall you can do about it, or anything else negative (and true) about Brazil.
"I know the truth about Brazil
yes, we have flaws, but we have strenghts too.."
As does every country on the planet. What's your point?
"...our space program is the most cost efective EVER.. we spent a fraction of what other countries have spent and accomplished great things"
Such as? Brazil abandoned its satellite program after two failures (read: explosions), and is now 'working with' (i.e. paying) France to develop the next generation. If Brazilians are so good at this rocketry stuff, why do they need French assistance? And the program is only cost effective IF YOUR ROCKETS STOP EXPLODING AND TAKING THE PAYLOAD WITH THEM. The reason Brazil is a good launch point is because it's near the sweet spot on the equator for geostationary orbit, NOT because Brazilians are involved.
"we don't have money to toss around like those world dominators up there... so we have to do it right, because we can't make mistakes"
You have to do it right, so that's why you keep doing it wrong?
"I WILL NOT LET YOU BLAME YOUR FLAWED PERCEPTION OF MY COUNTRY BE THE EXPLANATION OF THE CAUSES OF THIS ACCIDENT"
You seem to be seriously deluded as to what you can and cannot do to me.
"oh yes, I could say Columbia went bye-bye because US is a deorganized bunch of hamburgers eaters, and that they were lazy and overconfident, and forgot to check the thermal isolation on the wing..."
Brazil can't even get a basic rocket to fly right. You think they stand a chance at building a functional shuttle, capable of re-entry? Pffftttt... Typical Latin bravado. ALL bark, NO bite. Ooops! Yet another evil stereotype that happens to be as true as the day is long.
"...spanish and portuguese explorers came here, and took everything we had... wood, gold, minerals, everything... and a bunch of idiots from england dominated us for centuries robbing our money, and our economical and political independency."
If they were such idiots, how did they manage to dominate you? And Brazilians are mixed-blood. Those idiots you refer to are your blood relatives.
"so, if Brazil and other latin american ( and asian and african ) countries have economical and social dificulties there is only one we can blame : EUROPE."
Boy does that sound familiar. Don't want to take accountability for being fuck-ups, so you just point fingers in any direction other than your own.
Do you really think South America and Africa would be any further ahead now than they were then without European influence? Europe was already MILLENIA ahead of them in science and technology. Without those thieves, your people would still be dying from basic diseases.
"an example : in the 1800s, Paraguay was a GREAT , RICH country. so great and rich that it was threatening England ! so england financed a war and created reasons (remember the US report on Iraq weapons ? ) so Brazil could fight Paraguay. the war that destroied Paraguay and made Brazil forever knee deep in debts
And Brazil was too stupid to see this coming? And is still too dense to figure a way out? And begging for money from the IMF doesn't count. You guys are a hair's breadth away from pulling an Argentina. That's strange behavior, from such a capable group of people...
Tal
"Study your math, kids. Key to the universe." -The Archangel Gabriel
"For the crowd making witty comments how "it didn't event get off the launch pad", go and rent The Right Stuff. It gives nice humour ladden but accurate picture of USA's original struggle to get anything off the pad (original footage included). After a while they decided to inform the press only after the launch attempts, less eyes and cameras witnessing the explosions was less embarrassing."
You neglect to mention that back then, it was brand new, never done before, technology . The U.S. and Russia did all the groundbreaking stuff 4 decades ago. All the new players have to do is copy a known good, and they even fuck THAT up!
Tal
"Study your math, kids. Key to the universe." -The Archangel Gabriel
Just to clear one point, the rocket that exploded is not intended for space exploration; it is the third generation of the "VLS - Veiculo Lancador de Satelites", or Satellite Launch Vehicle.
0 30823_122894.shtml
= utf-8&q=brazil+vls&sa=N&tab=wn
It is a rocket to boost satellites to orbit, a scientific and commercial endeavor, since being close to the Equator make the Alcantara base in Brazil a good launch site.
More on english:
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200308/23/eng20
More on Google News:
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe
Thanks,
a Brazilian.
Is this true? What the hell!? Why are they closing it?
Denmark is a relaxed place. It won't be so relaxed once the free sale of pot is weeded out (pardon the pun).
>I know it must make you feel good to fantasize so but the reality is Brazil will never be a player outside of possibly launching satellites into space, although this market is very competitive and not growing quickly.
The reality is that Brasil WILL have its own satellites. And more. Deal with it.
>And your hostility towards the US Space program (or the US itself) doesn't change reality.
What's space program? I have no hostility, the US space program is pretty much dead. The ISS is Mir2 but in name. The only way for people to go out to space is to board a Soyuz. THAT's reality.
> The Chinese, Indians and others have yet to contribute much in terms of space exploration and probably won't for decades to come.
Again, you are delusional. It's the US the one that has not contributed for at least a decade now. And it doesn't look that it will.
> You're still looking at Space exploration as national competition, as though it were part of the Olympics. That's not the way that humanity will maximize its resources. Hopefully more enlightened people will be in positions of decision making.
No, not at all. It's a question of national development and security. The US cannot be trusted, and the rest of the world figured out this year, if they hadn't before. So everyone wants his OWN space acces. And at least some of them are going to get it. What's wrong with that?
> If left to people like you, Brazil will continue to flounder.
Why? Perhaps because I'm not Brazilian? I have no intention to rule Brasil, thank you very much. I am a good neighbour.
In fact, if Brazil does flounder is due in a great extent to the crippling interference of the US. No wonder they want their own access to space.
And they'll get it.
``L'imagination au povoir.''
There isn't much news about the explosion or victims names because the base is military and they want to check everthing (because body reconizition is now impossible, not much left unhappily) before going to media (i quite understand in this case). Most workers where from Sao Bernardo dos Campos, a city from the Sao Paulo state and where changed to Alcantara base for the launch. The explosion (even the fire) could be seen from many kilometers. The Alcantara base is just probally the best rocket launch base in the world. It's just very near to equator line and have a excelent climate, so you can launch things all year. USA tryied to use this base, but they tryied to make a deal where their containers could not be checked when entering Brazil or their personal could not talk to anyone. So it was going to be a american base in Brazil as in many europeans and gulf countries... well here we don't like this kind of thing (Brazil only looses to Jordania as the country that most dislike americans) and have a history of not allowing this kind of thing, so the deal was cancelled. Now we are trying to reach a deal with Ucrania that would make both countries change technology and bases use. In the end I think the important thing is that as the UN bombing, most people is going to keep working in memory of their dead friends. Explosions happens, it happened a lot for USA, Russia, etc, even that they where masked by cold-war. My toughts for the families. And my wish to keep trying to explore space (yes, I like star trek).
From your web page I gather that you're from the UK, so pointing out to you that the USA has a far higher international debt is probably useless. Brazil has a lot to gain, even if only from having a launch site where they do. The launch site is practically on the equator which saves a lot of fuel for rockets. That alone would give Brazil a good source of income. Developing a launcher, as Japan, India, Israel, China and ESA have done will only help them in the future.
First true big name after the Germans seems to be Sergei Korolev. The Russians had to make much more indigenous groundbraking stuff than USA since they got to import less know-how from Germany. With inferior materials they managed and still manage to get to orbit (first). Look who's servicing the ISS now
After all the disintegrated shuttles during the last decade it seems that besides copying there is room for further improvements. So let's be nice and let others try too, eh?
Oh, sure! Pick one: Microsoft, Sun Microsystems, McDonald's, Pepsi, Accenture, Ferrarri, Slashdot, zanderredux, etc.
Same old usual.
Too many internal and external interests opposed to a real space program there. And not just there. For all the obvious and devolutionary reasons. Including tradition and
And the dead keep piling up. The world over.
Each Brazilian rocket is supposed to cost about US$6million. Compare that to declared costs per launcher from other countries. They spend much more than that on tax subsidies to multinational car factories there, or to subsidise international "fast money" on the local market, or on pork barrel politics. Or on soccer stadiums. Or beer. Or Carnival. Or, even, on illegal logging of the Amazon (it is all illegal, now). Or...
Every time a financial-political scandal there is mentioned, figures soar into the tens of millionsUS$. So, US$60million to pay for, say, five or 6 launches per year could be found. So the Brazilian space program is really just for show. A veery small technological nursery. Not even a side-attraction, really. But it seems that it is still too much, for some folks. Inside and outside.
It is a case of the world being dominated by a very small town mentality.
Same old stuff.
Same old usual.
Too many internal and external interests opposed to a real space program there. And not just there. For all the obvious and devolutionary reasons. Including tradition and
And the dead keep piling up. The world over.
Each Brazilian rocket is supposed to cost about US$6million. Compare that to declared costs per launcher from other countries. They spend much more than that on tax subsidies to multinational car factories there, or to subsidise international "fast money" on the local market, or on pork barrel politics. Or on soccer stadiums. Or beer. Or Carnival. Or, even, on illegal logging of the Amazon (it is all illegal, now). Or...
Every time a financial-political scandal there is mentioned, figures soar into the tens of millionsUS$. So, US$60million to pay for, say, five or 6 launches per year could be found. So the Brazilian space program is really just for show. A veery small technological nursery. Not even a side-attraction, really. But it seems that it is still too much, for some folks. Inside and outside.
It is a case of the world being dominated by a very small town mentality.
Same old stuff.
.. but since when was Europe one country? I Must have missed it. Here I was thinking I lived in the Netherlands.
We're gonna need a new 'Godwin's law'. Call it AC's law.
Ever been there ? Some nice gals there, but Rio or Salvador are hard to beat. A couple of other cities / towns outdo even them. I'm not telling, of course. :)
Whoa, this totally made me wanna move to Brazil - even *before* reading the bit about the hot Olympic sex women!!!
"with the US the colonization process was totally different. the explorers wanted a true colony. they came to the US to build a new country, and not to rob all the gold from the land."
not to get involved in the rest of this arguement, but you need to check some facts here.
at the *very* least you've completely forgotten the Natives that were in the "US" long before any settlers arrived. their situation would be markedly similar to any South American natives, no?
also, in case you think the "US" colonization effort was a peaceful, easy process go lookup the American Revolutionary War. the colonists got robbed of gold, trees, natural resources, everything. thats why there are independant countries there now. the settlers got angry, fought a war, and eventually became independent.
Do you fucking happen to be an employee of Boeing, or any other private aerospace company? What's your agenda?
Lambada? There is no such thing here for more than a decade. You surely just know Brazil from B films.
Brazil has a strong defense industry, including Embraer the fourth largest aircraft company in the world. We develop and sell missiles, long range rockets, tanks, avionics, and so on. This is also basic knowledge of this country.
Finally, unfortunately there were 21 fatal victims, not only 16.
How about "Who Stays There Best" ?
Rubbish. For a start the Bandeirante is not a jetliner. Your data is also wrong. Links?
When you fly American Eagle, or JetBlue, or Swissair, chances are you are in an Embraer aircraft.
Hahahaha, that is some good stuff man!
Dangil, don't feed the troll.
btw this "paraguay great, rich country" is bullshit. Try reading "Maldita Guerra", from Francisco Doratioto, a great book that dispel this and other misconceptions from the Paraguay war.
C'mon dude...Brazilians are nothing but spics who speak Portuguese. Don't think that you're any better than other spics...'cause you're not.
I'm pretty sure that in an window of 20/30 years the US will loose almost all market share in commercial launch. It didn't lose it already because of a strong support provided by the military which fill many launchs.
The french rocket, Arianne is cheap and better.
Despite all dirty and bad behaviour from the US Gov few years ago, trying to shut down the french program.
Btw.. U still have China, India and Ukrain running after the share.
PN
This is completely tasteless. 21 brave and dedicated men, scientists and technicians like many of us here, die in a terrible tragedy and michael posts it as "try-try again dept."?
Sorry Michael, these men unfortunately won't be able to try again. It is a shame you don't realize this.
last time i checked europe was a continent, you know one of those things consisting of many countries
What we're seeing is an ICBM race.
China. India. Brazil. Israel.
He who has the ICBMs makes the rules.
So people who have other viewpoints than you
are incapable of intelligent, objective converstion?
Have you considered, that, yes countries like India, Israel, China and Brazial just may have ulterior motives to develop ICBMs? Oops. I'm being subjective and stupid. Mod me troll.
Fifty years on, it isn't surprising that several countries have demonstrated the will to build the technology to launch small unmanned satellites into low-Earth orbit.
In other words, that's comparable to building an airplane in 1953. No reason to get excited.
Launching small satellites is for the minor leagues, though. Supporting human space travel -- the real reason to use this technology -- is the mark of a major league player.
In both cases, though, it is lack of will and resolve that prevent us from making more effective use of existing technology.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
WTF? The celts and latins and catholics of europe think you're being a dork.
While I do not appreciate the tone of your post (a flamebait -- you like getting attention, don't you???), I respect your views and the courage/insanity to express them in such a non-diplomatic way.
And Brazilians have a different mind-set. Learn to live with that, because your attempts to change it will fail, mostly because while in Brazil, you'll be surrounded by some 250 million people that think otherwise.
I've always lived in both Brazil and US. I have more contact with Brazilians from Sao Paulo and Americans from the eastern coast (DE, NJ, MD, PA).
1 010001.html
That said, I guess, from my experience, I have some authority to disagree with some points from your posting.
Brazilians are more disorganized, yes, mostly. But one thing about Brazil that cannot be forgotten: It's a multi-faced country.
While some areas, like some north-eastern cities can be [almost] as poor as most African coutries, other cities like Sao Paulo mix some beggars with extremely wealthy people. Well, they don't really mix, as they live two worlds apart. The poorest people can't possibly grasp the life of a rich one. And that's the problem.
Social distribution is very bad, and that leads to a big distortion. Not an easy problem to solve.
Anyway, I know of an American company that, despite all red tape, prefers to hire Brazilians than Americans, because they think Brazilians are more hard working. So, their oppinion differs from yours.
But why does it differ ? Maybe you have had contact with just one "type" of Brazilian. You may be aware that inside Brazil the "paulistas" (those from Sao Paulo) are known for working hard.
Sao Paulo reminds me of NYC. Just with more homeless, more trash on the pavement, more violence (due to social distortion) but's that's basically it. Most people in Sao Paulo are hard workers. It's actually Brazil's economic capital. Lots of choppers there. Its helicopter fleet one of the biggest in the world, second only to Tokyo.
You said you live in Rio. So you had most contact with happy-go-lucky cariocas. I'm not saying all hard-working Brazilians live only in Sao Paulo, just making a generalization. Generally speaking, paulistas tend to work more than cariocas. Of course there are exceptions.
And, yes, there ARE buzzcut, Coke-bottle bi-focal, white button-down Oxford, pocket protector wearing, STRAIGHT-LACED, ANAL RETENTIVE, NO SOCIAL LIFE HAVING NERDS in Brazil. Think about ITA, one of the hardest universities in Brazil. It has a very hard entrancy test, in wich there's about 70 elite candidates per vacancy. The ones that manage to join ITA are trully nerds. BTW, ITA stands for Instituto Tecnico da Aeronautica, and they did help building this rocket.
For more info about Sao Paulo (in English), please read
http://www.fragilecologies.com/jul09_97.html
http://www.frommers.com/destinations/saopaulo/285
http://www.skyscrapers.com/re/en/wm/ci/101076/
-
Roses are #FF0000, Violets are #0000FF, find / -name '*base*' |xargs chown -R us && mv zig greatjustice
If this had happened in the U.S., there'd be several lawsuits just waiting to happen. I think it's better that we have a ton of lawsuits than be allowed to discriminate even by the letter of the law.
This is my digital signature. 10011011001
In my previous post I forgot to add a link to these nice pictures of Sao Paulo.
-
Roses are #FF0000, Violets are #0000FF, find / -name '*base*' |xargs chown -R us && mv zig greatjustice
Europe is one country and Slashdot is for zealots.
Stuff like this is what made me want to read theregister or any other NON US-centric news page instead. Heck, I'm wasting time again..
Canada's already a part of the US; it's just the part where the money looks funny. A couple more free trade agreements and we'll be saying the same about Mexico.
Who tried to tell me that making rockets and ICBMs were so easy anyone can do it.
Moron.
"There are laws that enslave men, and laws that set them free. " - Sean Connery as King Arthur
Gotta find the humor, man:
"We had just done two days of tests and everything went well - 100%. Everybody is devastated"
Pulp Audio Weekly - Geek News and Reviews
What happened in Brazil reminds me so much of the 1960 Soviet tragedy where over 150 (?) technicians working on what was the prototype of one of USSR's more successful ICBM's were killed when they were forced to work on a fuelly-fuelled rocket with technical problems and the rocket literally blew up on the launch pad. =(
This is why when technicians working on launch rockets at Cape Canaveral or Vandenberg AFB usually do their work with the rocket unfuelled, and take extreme safety measures when a rocket is fuelled.
You mean like Boeing and Mitsubishi?
The World Bank wants an end to "socialized" space exploration like NASA.
That's why privitization forces in the US have been cutting NASA funding over the last decade.
In the future, all space exploration will be done by multinationals driven by profit motive (not "science").
Hell, in the future all WARS will be fought by multinational corporations. Nations will still exist, but they'll be mercenary forces to supplant Corporate Security. 1/10th of the US presence in Iraq are "private security forces".
(And of course we all know now the reason for invading Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism or ANY Iraq-led threat to US people or properties. Or fucked up, profit-driven foreign policy that "spreads Democracy" about as much as the Catholic Church spreads food to Africans not willing to convert)
I think it was in 1996 when I drove my pappa from Munich through the Alps to Slovenia and back, and no one said anything to us through a half dozen mountain pass toll stations where you pay a cash toll until we were just short of Germany and we got waved over by the Gendarmerie. We handed over our blue passports to a pair of cops who knew little English, my German is the ungrammatical dialect learned from my grandma who came from the Serbian-Hungarian border, and my father started forgetting his rather fluent Croatian-dialect German real fast.
We were told the fine for not having the toll sticker was the equivalent of about $145, and I was sweating because I had only Deutche Marks on me and no Austrian cash, but after some hemming and hawing, the officer gave us our passports back and told us "Auf Wiederseien." My pop told me, "I think we need to drive over there and pay that fine," and I said "we are only 100 metres from the German border, I think I can make it!"
On later trips we bought the sticker and they had signs in English better explaining what it was, and the German rental car clerk finally told us about it (after asking, even though on the trip we got nicked, we told him we were taking the car through Austria to Slovenia). But can you picture two dumb Americans wasting away in an Austrian jail because they don't have any Austrian money on account of the toll sticker.
The way I figure it is that Austria is kind of like Wisconsin and Germany is kind of like Illinois -- the Germans think of Austrians as hicks and the Austrians think of Germans as those tourists with a lot of money and an attitude. I think the toll sticker is "lets put a tax on ourselves, but it stays in the country, but lets make those smart alec Germans pay it too." I think it is only a matter of time before Wisconsin comes up with a scheme like that.
Though not directly involved, as Brazilian, thanks to all who expressed their condolences... let's hope for a better future for us all, like the one those guys who died probably wanted.
Take care, everyone... Remember: do not harm.
The younger the individual, the less the ability to have a focused contextual ability, Put in more simple terms - most people people see life in terms of themselves. Part of growing up is learning to see yourself in terms of *life*. We can look at life from top down, or from bottom up. Physists look at life very much from the bottom up, and discuss and attempt to measure events so infinetesemly small it beggars belief, in a sense they are looking at the Mona Lisa with a microscope trying to find her smile.
Then you have the other lot who look at it all top down and walk around, like they have the universe in their heads. Six billion different human beings - six billion different universes? I think not. So what are we all doing here then? There is a damn lot of evidence that says what we have been doing for millions and millions of years is evolving into what we are now. Ordinary evolution relative to our time sense is very slooow the reason for this is, normal evolution is not lamarkian ie All you jocks out there can not pass your big biceps and small brains onto your progeny via your semen.
Richard Dawkins invented the term meme to suggest a different kind of evolution memeolution I suppose, look at the amount of that kind of evolution that has happened since the industrial revolution.
In the proto-elephant was a nascent trunk, if one could go back in a time machine and see this proto-elephant you could say 'ere mum there is a animal over there with a rather large nose. Imagine something looking rather like a tapir, the tree is contained within the seed.
It is evident that evolution has a branching fractal like structure, does our memeolution have this structure too? Of course it does - look at the history of the last two thousand years, and especially the last three hundred years. There are fractals written all over it. Match our memeolution rate with our cycles of warfare and a pattern emerges, evidenced that the development of computers radar and rocketry were all engendered by the second world war.
I am in no way supporting warfare merely pointing out that warfare has lead to much invention and social change, this observation leads to the idea that war has a cause. Lack of space, lack of resources, and sheer boredom all lead to warfair, cattle raiding is a cultural artefact with some people.
Our memolution might be a nascent something, in the same way that a tapir nose might grow long enough one day so as to be called a trunk. A good candidate for that something is 'The final anthropic principle'(this is googleable)If we develope the ability to create biospheres off of the earth it will be life's achievement we will have only been as agents carrying out lifes devine plan to go forth and multiply. We are part of that process not the reason for it. Life is the way the universe gets a look at itself.
If the human race does not carry out natures wishes in her desire to go forth and multiply, I have little doubt that we shall drown in our own filth or have a third world war and start bunging nuclear weapons about like a man with terminal cancer wanting to commit suicide. Heaven and space are the same place God and the Sun are covalent. Checkout psalms 147, 104 and especially 19. The lovely thing about worshipping the Sun is, you do not have to believe it is there, it is there wether or not you believe it, it is not hard to love the Sun after all it grew your food. The metaphor of the fall from grace and the ejection from the garden of eden is very apt
The planet was a verdant jungle with a myriad life forms, this biodiversity is vanishing at an alarming rate . Now most of this diversity has been replaced with suburbia, cities, slums and mono-cultures. There is only one way out and that is up. The earth is pregnant with life and we are its semen.
it's funny how you tack on It seems that the space race is heating up again, with many countries getting involved such as China, Europe and Japan to name just three. Will the future of space exploration be dominated by names other than Russia and the USA? to an article about a rocket exploding before it leaves Earth. Why not make that comment about the announcement of the rocket?
there was an option the mod a message as "+5: Look everybody, a retarted 8year old reads slashdot"
HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
The treaties are full of the phrase "Ever Closer Union", and explicitly prevent seccession.
The new EU constitution, due for adoption next year if things go right, explicitly guarantees member states the freedom to leave the Union:
Article 59: Voluntary withdrawal from the Union
1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the European Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention; the European Council shall examine that notification. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council of Ministers, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.
The representative of the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in Council of Ministers or European Council discussions or decisions concerning it.
3. The Constitution shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, decides to extend this period.
4. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to re-join, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 57.
As an American that has lived in Brazil, I would have to agree that Brazilians do have a strong distrust of the American government but love American culture and people.
There were many times people would come up to me, seeing that I was an American, and try to strike up a conversation and learn about who I was and were I came from. American music groups and movies are heard and seen throughout Brazil, (in addition to many local groups and productions that are outstanding) and a very common second language to learn in the public schools is English. I ended up meeting several High School English teachers, several of whom wanted to practice their English skills with me (all while I was trying to practice and learn Portuguese).
I will agree that the U.S. government policies toward Latin America in general are simply terrible and show a very strong colonial attitude (as in Latin American countries are treated as though they are colonies of the USA...I do know better). There is also a very strong tendancy of US foriegn and trade policy being set up to compete with Pacific Rim countries, Europe, and the Middle East, and Latin America in general gets screwed over because of the overly broad policies set up due to its relations with other world powers.
For Brazil in particluar, historically it has been a very faithful ally of the USA, and was the only Latin American country to send soldiers into battle during WWII (they had a couple of major engagements in northern Italy against the Third Reich...well, major for Brazil, and would have been headline international news if it weren't for other battles elsewhere at the same time). The Brazilian military is still quite friendly with the US military, but that fact politically in Brazil is more of a liability than an asset right now.
One particular issue I remember back during the Reagan Administration was in regards to shoe import tarriffs. There were a bunch of shoe manufacturers in New England in the 1980s that were having a really hard time competing against international manufactuers, especially because making shoes requires quite a bit manual labor to produce each shoe. Rather than admitting that paying $20/hour for unionized labor (and everything else that brings up...just don't think I'm anti-union however) and considering they are compeating against countries that have laborers that earning less than $10 per day, the shoe manufactures tried to substantially increase the import tarriffs to something like 300% tax on imported goods.
At that time about half of the shoes sold in America were made in Brazil. What actually happended was that no only did the price of the imported shoes go up (the desired affect), but the price of the domestic shoes also went up. Demand for shoe purchases dropped almost overnight, and huge numbers of shoe factories in Brazil shut down for more than a decade, sometimes permanently. Of course these shoe workers were pissed at US policy. And this was something that, to be honest, most US citizens didn't really care about anyway, and would prefer the cheaper shoes as well, even if they did come from Brazil. BTW, those American shoe companies that "needed" that tarriff protection: they closed up shop anyway, or moved production to some place like Malaysia or Singapore.
Another incident that I had while living in Brazil: I had lived in Brazil for almost two years and had over time aquired a pretty good suntan (seasonally too, because summer is between December and March), as well as some more local clothing. I was walking in downtown Sao Paulo with a native-born Brazilian and mistaken for a local myself. A Texan with a traditional 30-gallon cowboy hat, 150 lbs. overweight, wearing blue jeans (Levi's), a bolo tie, and a huge 10 lbs. belt buckle with the words "Don't mess with Texas", came up to me and said something that I considered rather insulting in English. Then he said something like "Why can't y'all learn how to speak a real language". I can't remember exactly what he asked, but even tho
To put this in some sort of historical perspective, I recently read an interesting observation about the coverage of the European exploration of the North American coast. The writer started with the observation that history books pay a lot of attention to the various expeditions from northern Europe during the 1500's. The Spanish and Portuguese are described as exploring South and Central America.
But there are records in Portuguese and Spanish archives showing that by around 1520, they had a regular (and highly profitable) fishing operation established on the Grand Banks, off the coast of New England and Nova Scotia. They had discovered the North Atlantic Gyre by then, and used it to get to the Grand Banks and back home fairly quickly. In English histories, the discovery of this circulation is generally attributed to Ben Franklin, 250 years later.
There's a lot of history of the English-speaking world simply ignoring exploration and advances in the rest of the world.
Here in the US, we almost never hear of ESA launches, unless there's some sort of disaster. Most Americans couldn't tell you what "ESA" stands for, and have no idea that any European countries other than Russia may have launched anything into space. Those few have heard of such things would tell you that the few launch attempts have mostly been failures.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
just like Africa!
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
You might never say all Americans suck but there are plenty of people in the world who don't hesitate to say it.
Americans are constantly told that the world hates us, we are evil, we deserve to die, etc.
Now you know how we feel!
-- LD
Michael has a habit of letting end italic tags "slip" in the article summary so that his own, comments look they came from the submitter. He also sometimes posts stories reflecting his own extreme left-wing interests that either were sent by "an anonymous reader", or else have no external source at all.
Thus what you find callous and Ameri-centric about this article could have come from Michael, and the dismissive dept. name ("from the try-try-again dept.") is certainly his invention.
Michael has a habit of letting end italic tags "slip" in the article summary so that his own comments look like they came from the submitter. He also sometimes posts stories reflecting his own extreme left-wing interests that either were sent by "an anonymous reader", or else have no external source at all.
Thus what you find callous and US-centric about this article could have come from Michael, and the dismissive dept. name ("from the try-try-again dept.") is certainly his invention.
Which makes me think- maybe he's not a left-wing nut at all, but an extremely clever and cynical Nixon Republican who likes to set off flame wars on Slashdot just to boost the ad viewage count? Many signs point in this direction.
PS: Regardless of one's opinion of the Iraq war or the Bush administration, please use the term neo-conservative correctly and stop brandishing it about like an apotropaion- most members of the current U.S. government (including Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, and certainly all "bureaucrats") are not neo-conservatives.
PPS: Thank you for in your post using the Ebonically-flavored "and shit" instead of the more Latinate "et cetera"; our cultural colonization of Finland seems to be ahead of schedule.
Well, at just $6.5-million dollars for the rocket, essentially they come free.
That's the coffee tab for NASA for a month.
Can anyone enlighten us on how it's possible to have a credible space program based on rockets that cost 6.5-million dollars?
Even being a brazilian, I'll have to agree... It's sad but true. And this thing of "oh, poor of us, we were explored for 500 years,buua buua" won't help anyone..
Ah, this Paraguay war stuff is just another kind of thing the history teachers tell everyone at classrooms, so students get "proud of their country" (blaming England for the killing of the Paraguayans)
Of course is a 500 years old problem, and it'll keep being a problem till the end of time.
I'am a truly brazilian, i've visited almost all states on this country, i know a lot of people, and I have to say that you are right. I study computer science on a big university, most (95%) of my colleagues are there because they had nothing todo. My class started with 60ppl, one year after, only 15 are still here. And we only have Calculus I. They just want to learn java to work building stupid systems. They dont became real scientists. The same for hole EECS.
... this will scupper it.
The impression that I got from reading about the War of the Triple Alliance was that "Mariscal" Solano Lopez of Paraguay was a vainglorious fool. One only needs a map of South America to see that if (1) you're Paraguay and (2) you're at war with Brazil, then (3) you'd better not piss off Argentina.
And Lopez, well, he pissed off Argentina. With enemies on all sides but the West, and the Gran Chaco and the Andes in that direction, Paraguay didn't have a chance.
Ooh, moderator points! Five more idjits go to Minus One Hell!
Delendae sunt RIAA, MPAA et Windoze
China is almost certainly not launching a manned landing mission in a couple of years.
They have announced plans for sending robotic probes to the Moon in the next 2-5 years, including a sample return mission and orbiters making detailed digital terrain maps. They say the goal is to have that program completed by 2010 and at that point to consider manned missions.
Could be that they will surprise us, but I haven't seen any serious analysts saying they could do a manned mission by 2008, and the Chinese are quick to correct anyone who suggests that is their plan.
Not to take anything away from them, they still have some ambitious plans.
For what its worth, Europe has a significant lunar orbiter in the works, and some plans underway for robot landers. A few private companies are also looking into moon missions (e.g., put a rover on the surface, charge boku bucks for kids at theme parks or science museums to go into a VR chamber and "drive" it).
Maybe because you are too stupid to get into a real (not just big) university.
China is almost certainly not launching a manned landing mission in a couple of years.
Look again at their rockets. They are above saturn 5 levels. They are far bigger than what is required for simple launches into orbit.
China no longer gives their plans out (like they ever really did). Of course, I am not convinced that it is much different than USA, at this point.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
when you don't have mod points with you. Arrogant, ignorant git. Mod him down please, someone. And sympathy to those bereaved, those remaining, and those who will join the space programmes wherever they are.
The technology used on a space rocket is the same used in a long range missile. I can think several country who doesn't want Brazil with long range missile.
This is a fact: the exact date of this launch was secret because the gov fears sabotage.
we salute you. /. headline I was shocked (I'm brazilian but I don't watch TV or read newspapers). It's really sad when people work so hard for something only to die without seeing their dreams fly away. But we will continue and their work will be fulfilled.
When I saw the
The USA has a tradition of spaceflight and working on Nasa is a dream of many young geeks. Here in Brazil it's different, because we are starting and it's not so glamurous. But I always had this dream of working in INPE (our Nasa), that was one of my goals after finishing physics graduation. I quit college but I still has this dream, even after this tragedy.
Disclaimer: If I disagree with you I'm probably trolling...
It would be sneakier for them to promote discord between Brazil and France (recent news), and then get them to sabotage it to protect Ariane, ESA, Colombian-French politicians, whatever. But then again, that would be incredibly out of character, of course.
The race to space should be global. There should be no race, to tell the truth. It should be co-operation between countries. Space is so important to mankind that it would be really ridiculus to carry our political and historical differences over to space.
The current administration is by no means anti-space. The current administration likes to spend anyways.
Nuclear Electric Propulsion and the Jupiter Icy Moons Orbiter is a big step.
Because the Jupiter Icy Moons Orbiter involves puting a nuclear reactor into space (no not Radioisotope Thermal Generators), a real reactor. This will not only allow manuverability with the ion engine, it will allow more power to send information. In deep space power is knowlege, the ammount of power you have dictates how much information you can send back.
The real danger is a future president would cancel this kind of thing do to enviornmentalist and other luddite protesting. Of course they dont realize the complete safety of launching the Nuclear Electric craft, but hard facts don't seem to stop them.
These kinds of technologies are probably the greatest achievements of the humanity. We can investigate the moons of a distant planet with great manuverability to move between the moons with the ion engine, and send back high resolution data.
There are better reasons to be dissapointed at the current administration than space policy.
If I were just posting a re; morse it would look like this ... --- rry, however it was sincere.
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
I for one hope the future of space travel lies not in idiotic competions between countries to determine who has the biggest "rocket" but in multi-national programs where engineers and scientists call the shots, not politicians pushing an agenda. This "race" mentality, although it stimulates progress, leads to mistakes.
In some ways, a country like the UK has less independent power than Texas, as the EU regulates particularly economic matters more than the federal US government
In most ways, conversely, the EU member states are more independent than US states (e.g. they each have their own army - UK did not need EU approval to send troops to Iraq)
Curiously, Quebec, that separatiste province du Canada, wants to use the European model as a form of union, even though the EU is moving towards more union. And according to the European model, Canadian provinces have more independence in many ways than EU member countries.
It just appears that Quebec wants an equal vote with the rest of Canada... which is pretty stupid, since the US never lets Canada have an equal vote even if the treaties say it does.
Wouldn't a continent be a major landmass with small interconnections to other landmasses; this especially applies to landmasses with SHIELD formations.
A subcontinent would be a portion of a continent that has a differential motion to its neighbouring regions.
An infracontinent would be large geographically defined regions of continents
A supracontinent would be a well defined agglomeration of continents.
Continents:
Eurasia, North America, South America, Africa, Australia, Antarctica, Iceland
Subcontinents:
Arabia, Persia, Anatolia, Italy, India, East Africa, Madagascar, California, Greenland
Infracontinents:
Europe, Iberia, Scandinavia, China, Indochina, North Africa, Amazonia, Patagonia, Andes, Cascadia,
Supracontinents:
Australeurasia, Afreurasia, Afraustraleurasia, America
Oceans:
Arctic Ocean, North Atlantic Ocean, South Atlantic Ocean, Pacific Ocean, Indian Ocean, Antarctic/Southern Ocean, Carribean Sea-Gulf of Mexico, Arabian Sea, Bay of Bengal
I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say someone missed that "America isn't a country."
;) )
I'll assume you are referring to people talking about Americans when referring to people from the United States of America. I've heard a reasonable number of people refer to the use of American as a sign of American arrogance. However, what else would you call Yankees or Yankee things? United-States-ian? In French, people from the US are referred to as Americains, and I think citizens of the US are referred to as Americanos in Spanish. It's just more convenient than the alternatives. (I'm okay being referred to as a Yankee, but it is informal. Also, would you say Yankish arrogance instead of American arrogance?
Also, the reason I predict Europe federalizing power and not the Americas is that a governmental framework is already in place that encourages centralization of power in the EU. A single currency requires coordinated monetary policy, and just look at how far the interstate commerce clause has been extended in the US.
The final number of deaths is 21. 16 bodies were already recovered. The Government is close to drop the hipotesis of human failure. Due to the violence of the explosion the bodies will be submited to DNA analysis for identification.
Here is a link to the updated history, unfortunatelly (for most of you) in Brazilian Portuguese, but you all can use the fish. The link also contains a photo of the column of smoke and video footage (Windows/Real Media).
A great loss for my country, but we will not give up so easily to manage this technology (that is my point of view and our president's).
- Please, ignore everything written above.
"Will the future of space exploration be dominated by names other than Russia and the USA?" Good question. I expect that honor may well fall to the country most successful at keeping their rockets from blowing up and killing people. Here in the USA, our record could be better. All the best, -Alphtoo
BTW, a few hours saved some undergrad students on visit from joining the others.
(8-DCS)
And what the hell, why not mod me offtopic for bringing this up here and now?
Is it fascism yet?
http://users.rcn.com/zap.dnai/
Well, here we say "Estadounidences", its like "Unitedstatesians" in spanish. An many people simply say "gringos". We use "Americanos" to mean people from all the Americas, North-, Central- and South-America.
The US is out of the space business. Their only remaining fully active launch vehicle, the Atlas 5, is almost entirely built in Russia and shipped overseas by airplane. China and India are already accepted as the next space powers. Space is like railroads. It was fun but not practical.
(Concorde factored out)
As far as I know, only one Concorde fell down in the whole history. Anyone else beat that out ?
Write boring code, not shiny code!
Thank you for pointing out that americanos doesn't translate like I thought it did. I took French in school, and the online dictionary I used just translated americano as American.
t ers.h tml
n g American to refer to ourselves doesn't mean ignoring that other people are from North and South America; it just means that referring to people from the USA comes up so much more for us than referring to people from either North or South America that it is easier to use American to refer to citizens of the USA. Why attribute to malice/arrogance what can be attributed to laziness/brevity?
;)
An interesting sidenote is that I don't think English has a concise way of saying people from one of the Americas (North, Central, or South). We use the terms North-American, South-American, and Central-American, but there isn't a good way to say from any of the above. I really don't think of it as a natural grouping. (Also, if you just mention North Americans and South Americans, does that imply Central American, too?)
If you had to translate "Estadounidences" into English, what word would you use, though? United-States-ian is just so clunky.
Also, as this site points out
http://www.yourspanishtutor.org/sbp19-tricks
, estadounidences and estadounidense both ignore other countries that are united states.
My general point is that since there is no good substitute in English for "American" to refer to someone from America, people shouldn't seek out an insult where none was intended. English is an inconsistent language: http://pw1.netcom.com/~rlederer/arc_ceng.htm
Usi
--Patrick Warf, proud United-States-ian
official: So you're from india then?
guy: yes.
official: Are there any of you left there?
guy: Er. Yes.
official: Huh. It seems you're all here.
(it was a while ago, but that was the gist of it)
I've heard similar stories about British iommigration and seen some pretty shocking stuff here in Switzerland. I think that wherever you go you meet racism in immigration. It's not necessarily representative of the views of the whole country.