Slashdot Mirror
Expert Opinions On Linux Gaming's Future
jg21 writes "Following
on from yesterday's Slashdot coverage of the idea to launch a games-based Linux
distro, LinuxWorld Magazine has held a Gaming Round Table involving Chris DiBona, Ryan
Gordon, Timothee Besset, Gavriel
State, and Joe Valenzuela about where Linux
currently stands and how it will one day become a premier gaming platform. 'It
became perfectly clear to me that most of the technological issues are already
solved, and that the others won't take too long to fix once the game publishers
really get into the mix,' reports Dee-Ann LeBlanc, Gaming Industry Editor for
LinuxWorld, who coordinated the round table. Well worth reading."
Games on a stable and free OS! My dream come true!
It's nice to talk about creating a "gaming OS", but the key component here is that you need some games.
Sokoban and Mahjongg only get you so far..
OpenGL exists on Linux, what else are game developers missing?
I have been pwned because my
I wonder if they contacted John Carmak about this... or even concidered him. I mean, he and his team did create the first true 3d (raltime) game (wolfenstien, for those you living inside a cave) and his company does support Linux (Quake III Arena, for example)
The most annoying thing is getting the grafix drivers to work properly. When I was trying to get UT2003 to work, I found the install to be the easy part, but finding the proper drivers and installing them was the most difficult part.
If the dollar is an "I owe you nothing", then the Euro is a "Who owes you nothing." - Doug Casey
How can I play a game when I'm blind?
YOU INSENSITIVE CLOD!
Nethack has pretty good support for such technologies as screen readers and braille pads.
"They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
Well, first of all, game developers will have to focus more on other platforms than windows, since many games still rely on windows internals (anarchy online for one). There are many who code their games to fit with both Linux and Windows, but i wish there would be more, since games such as Anarchy Online are some of the few reasons why I dont remove my windows installation completly.
this is probably the most boring sig in the world
Traditionaly the gaming industry is one where garage developers have great impact.
A big problem I see with Linux as a mainstream gaming platform is that there is no significant market to tempt those developers with no extra money to burn...
I speak myself as a former game developer (now on the academic side of the world)... how would you convince me to develop for linux if I have no extra money??
--krahd
mod me up scottie!
One thing that Linux can do really well is CLUSTER EASILY. Forget the PS3... as long as games are written to make use of Linux's clustering abilities - we can have some MASSIVE gaming servers and game environments.
:)
Now all I want for Christmas is an Open Mosix release for the 2.6 kernel.
READY.
PRINT ""+-0
Obviously, we've all heard about UT2003/2004, Neverwinter Nights, and the upcoming Doom III (id Software usually supports Linux well, yay them!)
Even the US gov't is jumping aboard with America's Army (as well as support for Mac).
Linux is growing, and needs to grow more and more in regards to users, so we can get better game AND hardware support. I know some people think this Linux vs. Windows war is kind of silly, but until Linux grows to the point where it's recognizable by the average user we'll still be left out in the cold in many regards (such as, of course, games and hardware).
I admit, I myself still have Windows installed. How else can I play many games? Wine doesn't want to work on my computer, and it's not perfect anyway.
---
Never criticize religion on Slashdot. You will be modded down for "Troll" no matter how factual it is.
Mahjongg is a first person whatchamacallit.
The most important thing required for a successful gaming platform is an audience to purchase the games. If you have that, game developers will develop for your platform. Linux does not have this yet and it is a bit of a chicken and egg scenario.
About the only thing Linux can hope for in the short term is the occasional port but even that may not be financially viable for quite some time judging by the smouldering crater that was once Loki.
Hmm...I wonder if it'd be easy to convert Mac OS X games to Linux? After all, both Mac and Linux games use OpenGL, and both Mac and Linux are UNIX based... If the developers take the Mac source code and tweak it a bit for linux, then recompile it on an x86 Linux machine, voila, Mac games on Linux!
Two Words: Market share.
The games will come if/when a larger proportion of their target market runs Linux.
Right now, very few games are developed for Linux, because relatively few game buyers run Linux. Most game developers don't have the time or resources to port their products, because the margins are razor thin and time is critically important. Windows development toolkits like DirectX are widespread and proven effective.
Until linux is percieved as a major market and has the level of (hardware) vendor support that Windows-based stuff does, it will continue to be an afterthought in game development.
"We have to go forth and crush every world view that doesn't believe in tolerance and free speech." - David Brin
The punchline made me think this might be a joke, but your website certainly leads one to believe you may in fact be blind...
Although more of a Simulation, rather than a "game".
http://www.linuxsimulations.org
Personally I think it might just be a bit easier to roll out a gaming linux console, as it eliminates most of the installtion/setup processes that could be complicated sometiems.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
1. Convert Xbox to run Linux
2. Convert games developers to Linux
3. ???
4. PROFIT!
biopowered.co.uk - catalytically cracking triglycerides for home automotive use since 2008. Just say no to big oil!
I can speak somewhat from Joe Sixpack's perspective. I'd love to become a full time linux user. Right now I'm playing around with the latest Mandrake distro... the only problem I've had is the fact that I can't play games. It'd be nice to be able to have the same ease of installation/play with linux, that I have with Windows. If some day down the road this happens, with a large choice of games, count me in. Until then... my money gets to go to Gates.
I had a b1tch of a time getting 3d working on my radeon 9500 with redhat. and I had to accept the fact that the drivers were not GPL, it sucked.
Something that would really help is if people were assured they relatively new 3d cards would actually have good (easy to obtain / install) drivers so we can play the games available under linux.
actually I am happy to see you, however that is in fact a banana in my pocket.
Linux seems to be stuck right now as far as games go. There are GREAT free games, don't get me wrong, I've wasted many hours using frozen bubble, but, there needs to be incentive (read users) for commercial game developers to develop for linux. The catch-22 is that there needs to be incentive (read games) for windows users to switch to linux. I'm not a big gamer, so doesn't effect me and I'd rather buy a game console, however, joe six pack needs games that can play easily on his OS, before a switch.
The FA makes some valid points about the cost of porting games to linux. However, there are commercial-quality game engines out there that do run under linux. One of them, Nebula if even open source (even though Nebula2 is still lacking graphics support for linux, but that's in the works). Nebula1 is perfectly useable and has all kinds of goodies, including input handling, sound, and a slick architecture.
I believe the major problem at the moment is definitely the difference in availability/quality of hardware accelerated graphics drivers. One ATI get their shit together, the story might be different...
I asked for a refund - and got my monkey back.
I just hope it turns out better than being a Mac Gamer. (Complements of the Red vs. Blue guys)
. mov
http://webdev.o1.com/rvb/movies/switch/RvB_switch
State: It's very simple. Buy more games and tell the industry that you're buying that game to play on Linux.
I totally agree. The single biggest hinderance to seeing more games running natively on linux is the perception (and likely fact) that there's no money in it. It's for this reason that I subscribe to Transgaming, Bought Neverwinter Nights (and sent them a letter explaining why I picked their game and thanking them), and have copies of games from (some defunct) companies that I dont even play, but whose development I thought it was important to support.
Just keep supporting the folks doing a good job.
---
Jedimom.com, picking out a thermos for you.
StrategyTalk.com, PC Game Forums
I posted this in the last Linux - Gaming - Distro - Thread, but was a bit late. This isn't consistent in itself, but the idea should be clear:
What about setting up a fund for developing a linux game? It should have a concept, only rough, like the genre, set.
Then set up a website with a nice progress bar, and a target sum needed for the developement, like what? 5 Million Dollars? 10 Million Dollars?
Ok, that won't get us a completely new Half - Life - 2 developed, but maybe a nice RPG / Adventure built on an existing engine.
Maybe different Funds for different uses, like
- Make a cool RPG a 'la Deus Ex / System Shock
(Wizardry would be even better, but i don't know about the mass - marketing appeal...)
- "Make a good game developing environment based on Crystal Space"
Make an agreement with some game studio to get a cool engine for a guaranteed price for a free - as - in beer - game production use, let it be the UT or Doom 3 Engine. Or not, depends on the game's genre, i guess.
Let somebody develop a cool game from this money for the community.
If the community wants a new cool game developed, everybody transfers a few bucks to a new proposed game fund of his choice. I think there are enough gnu / linux / bsd / mac etc. fans out there to invest a few dollars each to get a big enough budget, it's mostly a marketing question, i guess.
Kind of like the effort for opening the Blender source?
The fund should be handled by a trusted entity, of course.
For Linux to become a gaming platform, game developers have to be willing to support both Direct3D and OpenGL. For id Software and a few of the more established developers who already have Linux versions of their games, it is less of an expense. For newer developers, it would be a larger risk than just supporting D3D to hit 90+% of the desktop PC's.
The biggest problem is convincing developers that there's money in it for them.
Most are under the impression that they shouldn't bother with anything other than Windows because there's no money in it. "95% of the market is Windows, so why bother with a poultry 5%" type attitude.
Also, added to the cost is desktop support. If you write a game for just Windows you only have to worry about Windows problems. If you write a game for Linux and Mac OS X, you have to hire, train, and then troubleshoot Linux and Mac problems.
The other problem is to convince developers to NOT design their game around proprietary technologies such as DirectX.
By the way, this information comes from the developers themselves. Personally, I think it's a bunch of crap excuses for lazyass companies trying to squeeze out every profit they can by minimizing responsibility. I'm an avid Mac user but I just recently had to buy a PC just to play games. Counter-Strike, Infantry, and Subspace are Windows only and impossible to play under emulation. However, I'd LOVE to see all my favorite games running under Linux and Mac OS X so I can chuck Windows.
If game developers can't be convinced to even write games for the Macintosh using the above excuses (especially the marketshare one), why would they be at all interested in a desktop that has an even smaller marketshare than the Macintosh?
Its ATI, they have a history of horid drivers and support. Not really the best example.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I'm going to ignore the driver/hardware support issue for now, I'm sure other people will cover that in depth.
It seems to me that the people who pride themselves on having open and free software are probably those least likely to actually buy games. I think the best bet in the short to medium-term is for companies that are already doing porting like Aspyr to pick up the ball once they see that a market exists. The success of shareware companies like Freeverse and Ambrosia are what has kept big-name titles on the Mac and as far as I know there aren't a lot of examples of super-successful for-pay games on Linux.
Microsoft also has a serious advantage as far as DirectX goes and its integration with Visual Studio. The development environment is a very big deal, especially as games get more and more complex.
Since Creative Labs don't make and open source drivers for Linux, the audio area is lacking. I have to use drivers from http://opensource.creative.com for basic sound. I would like to have EAX for games to get those sound effects like reverbs, directional sound for 4.1 speakers setup, etc.
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
Just thought I should mention because it's timely, I went out and bought UT2004 today. It has a penguin on the box! HOORAY!
microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
Big developers are leaving PC development for consoles and now you wonder why they won't release in-house ports to a subset of a dying market?
Get a console.
--- I do not moderate.
Yea, that would rule if they just made games mainly for consoles. As afaik the PS3 will be running linux, so x86/ppc linux support is only a compile away.
Jisho - A Japanese English German Russian French Dictionary for the rest of us.
So the question is can the games be sold on a *nix platform. Yes people do pay for *nix software, and people do make money off it, but can *nix games generate the types of profit that will attract the top game developer? Even if the engines are cheap or free, even if *nix market share rise to 20%, is this enough of a customer base to warrant the effort?
Then there is the question of marketing entertainment on a platform that potentially has no possibility of viable copy protection.
Just to be clear, I think that *nix products in general can be sold and generate a profit. However, games and the like seem to follow a more complex set of economic rules.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
While we tend to blame the problem on Linux's small marketshare, I think Ryan is right here in that binary compatibility has as much, if not more to do with it. Compared to Windows, it would seem that things get broken more often in Linux, both application and driver wise, and that no one from the glibc guys to Linus himself want to really support this kind of compatibility in fear that it will undermine the OSS movement. How is an industry that needs binary compatibility for games and drivers alike supposed to survive without it?
...Linux is a pain to develop a good game client for. DirectX games are not easily ported, and most games are DirectX. This means most professional game developers are fluent in DirectX. DX makes things a lot easier than writing for every sound/video card out there.
Further, Linux editions of games lose money. Quake3 for Linux sold dismally, while people were buying the Windows version enough to be dunking the CDs in their coffee. And the Linux client was released first: if ever there was an opportunity for a killer-app game to help boost Linux, that was a great time.
Loki went out of business by doing the smart thing: bootstrapping itself with porting Triple-A titles from Windows, to earn some cash and develop a library to live on. Who's going to look at the Linux market and see it as viable when id and Loki can't make a good go of it?
And Linux users are habituated to not paying for Linux software, as a rule. Not that they don't, and not that there aren't vertical markets where people are paying good money for Linux apps, but the OSS community is, well, a hard community to pry money out of.
I say this as a developer of Windows games, who runs Macs at home and who has compiled a few Linux kernels in the past. Developers have enough to do to create a modern game while taking advantage of the assistance of things like DirectX: taking on the burden of developing the same thing without that help, for a community that likes their software free (both kinds of free),... that's a lot to expect.
The net effect will be a flocking to Linux as the only platform without DRM restrictions for normal developers.. the pieces are already in motion...the early movers [like Id] will be in the best position to weather the storm.
install peenix, problem solved.
Honestly, if I were a games developer looking at the Linux market seriously, there is one feature which would really draw me in: the ability to provide a bootable distribution on the game CD.
One of the biggest headaches of game developers is trying to test their game on a sufficiently large subset of available hardware and software configurations to insure it will work properly. This isn't an issue on Consoles, which is one (not the only, but a big one) of the issues they are so popular to develop for. Having a bootable distro on the game CD gives the developer many of the advantages of both Console and PC:
Given the size of modern games, DVD distros are more likely than CD distros, but the concept is identical.
The bootable game CD/DVD has the potential to drastically reduce developer costs associated with modern games, and merge the best features of PC and Console gaming, with few drawbacks. I expect to see game makers venture into Linux in this area first.
-Erik
There are always four sides to every story: your side, their side, the truth, and what really happened.
...this year, then I suppose it would be time to open up another Loki like porting house, but without the bad buisness sense. Aspry or MacSoft can stay in buisness with it's small marketshare, I would think if someone opened up a Linux porting house with a good buisness model, it could also stay in buisness. I know plenty of people that would switch to Linux if there were enough game titles on the platform. To top it off, if you are into gaming then by switching to Linux you can add $100 -$200 to your game budget because you will no longer have to pay for the OS. That's two to four games right there. Make sure once you hear about the development of a game, start a petition in their forums for a Linux port. Tell them you refuse to buy their game if their is no Linux port. I also know people who run Linux game servers that will not run a server for that game if there is not a client to go with it. Make sure you petition sounds intelligent and proofread it. Drivers are a little bit of an issue because it involves editing text files with the commandline. I wonder if something like installshield could be developed for Linux.
games are bad mmmmkay... they lead to violent behavoir and other bad things mmmmmkay... like marijuana and sexual deviancy mmmmkay
And what is one reason for a small gaming Linux community? Ease of use on Linux.
When I have to spend several hours installing drivers for my nVidia card, then modifying the kernel, then modifying permissions, I'm lost. I STILL don't have audio in Linux because I can't figure out how to get the drivers working with my Audigy2 card. Why can't installing drivers be easier? If there were one setup program that did everything for installing the driver, Linux gaming would be golden.
Certainly, I will be running UT 2004 in Linux once I get my hardware working. And certainly I will be running DooM 3 in Linux. But when will the casual user switch to Linux and be using the great Linux ports? The big name titles are there. But where are the users?
I am defenseless. Use your button. Mod me down with all of your hatred.
As many have said on the previous discussion, games-oriented distros already exist, based on Knoppix, Gentoo and many others. I can't help but feel the focus on these distro developers is not going to the right direction.
Being a developer myself, having used UNIX clones for more than one decade, and worked in the videogames industry, I know it's tempting to see the whole Free/Open Source software available as reusable code for just about any kind of project and think about software as some sort of Swiss Army knife.
But, the truth of the matter is, the usage patterns of a gamer are completely different from any other type of user, either from a technological and/or psychological perspective. We even tend to think of games as content in the same way as audio or video, when in fact, games are very demanding applications. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but the usability of games, their GUIs, the APIs and hardware support are not a priority and you'll see just about any of the so-called "games distro" using mostly the same software as a regular one, complete with KDE, GNOME and whatnot.
There should be only a handful of games-oriented distros, made with forks of every relevant component, but tailored exclusively for the needs of games and include no non-games related software inside. X, OpenGL, SDL and other libraries and APIs, Hardware Detection & Driver Support may seem obvious to have, but why do we need whole collections of shells, fonts, window managers or even locales? Why even the same init and authentication processes as desktop-oriented distros? Most games need to have their own, custom support for these things anyway, so the unnecessary, duplicate stuff should be removed.
Small, specialized software is better in many ways, so that the focus can be on the hardware support and the robustness of needed engines, APIs and libraries. Only then a games developer can maximize resources and focus on solving games' bugs during beta testing, and spend less time on issues with other unrelated, bloated components.
A tiny, modular LiveCD distribution is ideal for games because software diversity and versioning is better controlled, but should not be mandatory, and because the OS components can be under a free license, software houses can launch their products with the same codebase without any problem and make them either bootable or installable. Hell, some can even make professional SDKs out of it and license it to other developers.
Simply put, making a desktop-oriented distro, then just adding some drivers and some games and claiming it's a "games distro", doesn't take advantage of the technical superiority the free software community and, as a gamer, doesn't make it attractive to me, as in every distro there's some learning curve and fine tuning involved. "Damn! I just want to play a friggin' game!"
<RANT>It's a shame we're not showing of any real world usability advantages over videogame consoles or Windows-based games.</RANT>
- Otaku no naka no otaku, otaking da!!!
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
if you cannot subscribe to this place and support it (and the good folks who run it), whats to say you will do the same in the gamestore ?
lead by example
Really, one person with the most potential, in my eyes, benefit from a good Linux platform is Sony. If the API for Linux were similar to the PS2/3, then 1. porting would be relatively cheap, 2. they get free consoles without the cost of manufacturing, and 3. they compete with Microsoft's model of doing exactly this with their Windows and Xbox API overlap.
... ;)
Perhaps this applies equally well to Nintendo
explore gamesfortheblind.com
written by a blind programmer, who's dedication and passion in the face of adversity should be supported.
Sure some of us sighted people can program well (and bad), but to it without the power of sight is truly something to awe and makes me feel rather humble.
A>S
First a bit of Linux history reiterated, just to set the scene... Linux has gained the widest adoption in the server arena, probably the largest segment being dedicated Internet/Firewall boxes. Running without a GUI or even headless (without attached monitor/etc), configured via Web interface, even using "lower end" hardware. These are perfect canidates for adding more server software to, in this case we'd add a simple way to install and configure game servers.
/. games section. Anyone super interested can email me.
The advantages are obvious, we can sidestep the entire issue of "does Linux support the latest games" since most modern games come with a Linux server component that is superior to running a server/client at the same time on your Windows box. (added server overhead usually only if you are serving the game of course)
Considering the wide variety of dedicated firewall distros out there (my own favorite) and how easy they are for even Linux newbies to setup, there isn't much of a leap to create such a distro. One of the main issues of course is getting the needed copyrighted content from the game CD to the Linux box, something that is both a manual and painful process in many cases.
I've discussed this project with a few friends who are familiar with Linux firewalls/game servers also, but unfortunately we haven't had time to do more than brainstorm on it. If we do end up putting together a basic distro like this you can be sure I'll submit it to
Jonah Hex
Horror & SciFi Erotic Nudes
It was a bad attempt at using a cliched Slashbot joke and you bit down on it like he said Python is dying! Ah hahahahahaha
gg nextmap
Perhaps what they are looking for is something like this from the Morphix guys. It has the q3a and ut2003 demos too.
He said he wondered if JC was in the house, not some dumb pencil pusher who spends most of his time brewing Carmack's breakfast blend!
English, motherfucker, do you read it!!?!
If Slashdot were to fire michael and replace Taco with an editor who was less aloof and a bit more appreciative of his readership, I'd subscribe. The idea that you think Slashdot is somehow comparable to the games industry as it pertains to Linux is just silly.
Once Linux becomes a viable alternative to Windows for office use things will improve. With office use we will see better driver support for common hardware (not that there is much of a problem currently, other than closed source).
Multimedia support under Linux is not in a bad state. SDL is a good standard set of libraries for handling windowing, OpenGL, input and audio. With projects such as Project Utopia and HAL integrating the kernel with the desktop, things can only get better.
I think the future is bright for Linux gaming.
A simmilar corss-platform solution exists:
SDL
It's always growing, it's open source (sort of), and it already supports many of the things in DirectX.
There's a few other successes, like magnatune (tipware music), or scorched3d (donationware game). I wouldn't be likely to just give money with nothing there. Start with something small, fun, and free.
-I am an elective eunuch.
... what else are game developers missing?
What is missing? The Linux gamers are missing. Now calm down everyone, this is a serious point. The Linux game market is not the number of Linux users who would buy a Linux based game. That is too simplistic. The real Linux game market is the number of Linux users who would buy a Linux based game and would never buy the Windows version, would never dual boot or emulate.
The fact is that Linux users who dual boot or emulate are already customers. The developer has no financial incentive to do a Linux version, it would not generate any new money with these users. It would merely replace a Windows sale with a Linux sale. This does not rule out developers doing Linux games for non-financial reasons, like id.
When so called "experts" discuss the future of Linux gaming, speak only of the number of Linux desktops and ignore the dual boot/emulation issue, they have lost some credibility IMHO.
Some salient points: most game publishers want a minimum 50,000 unit commitment. http://counter.li.org/ estimates current linux deployment at 18 million. The 50 thousand target clocks in at 0.27% user saturation. That is anything but impossible.
How many of the 18 million are end user desktops?
How many of the end users are also gamers?
How many of those Linux gamers ONLY run native Linux games and NEVER dual boot or emulate?
I argue that most Linux gamers are already customers who run the Win32 version. A Linux verson would largely not generate new sales, it would replace existing Win32 sales with Linux sale. Where is the profit in this?
Reading this thread, I'm thinking back to older games and how you basically had to reboot for every one- what about a bootable distro (incl. drivers, etc. for common hardware) that writes a config file onto the hard drive (capable of writing to several partition types, windows and linux)and contains one single game?
Would gamers tolerate rebooting for a game these days? And would it even be possible to make it fairly robust in hardware support?
Just thinking aloud.
What is the big selling point of linux?
;)
Why, you can run linux on any old hardware. Grab that old pentium II from the corner and fire it up.
hmm, I must be missing the boat
I just bought a new P4-2800 with a gig of RAM and a nice nvidia card, and installed fedora core 1. I have no particular need to run ms windows, but if I did someday have such a need, I have a celeron 333 in the corner that will be the designated windows box.
With all the money I saved, not having to buy a microsoft licence, I'm going out to buy ut2004 this week!
Don't forget "How many of those 18 million speak the language the game would be relased in?"
WANNAWIKI Wannawiki WannaWiki WANNAWIKI!
The Linux and Mac situations are not comparable. Linux gamers can dual boot or emulate a Win32 game. They are therefore mostly already customers of the developer. Only a handful will go without a hot game trying to hold out for a native Linux port. Mac gamers can not effectively emulate, unlike their Linux brethren they have to emulate the CPU not simply the APIs. Win32 emulation on the Mac works for business apps but not for games.
I agree that desktop linux users may not be buying the absolute fastest hardware, but we aren't buying absolute minimum specs either.
In my experience, people that buy desktop computers for linux shoot for the best price to value. This may mean not getting the Radeon 9800 XT, but a decent card to use nonetheless.
Very few people are buying the absolute fastest hardware for Windows. In fact, dualie Linux workstations are more powerful than any gamer computer I've seen recently.
Hardware might appear to be the reason for poor sales on the surface, but there are people with the hardware that run linux. The root of the problem is more likely difficulty of gaming, or the detrimental effects of overgaming that I'm sure all of us have had. I don't think hardware is a problem.
At the very least, I know I bought a nice rig for linux and play lots of games. Maybe I'm just different.
hmm, I must be missing the boat ;)
:)
I just bought a new P4-2800 with a gig of RAM and a nice nvidia card, and installed fedora core 1. I have no particular need to run ms windows, but if I did someday have such a need, I have a celeron 333 in the corner that will be the designated windows box.
With all the money I saved, not having to buy a microsoft licence, I'm going out to buy ut2004 this week!
That is why part of my message was
While linux users may hate to admit it, very few people are buying the absolute fastest hardware out there to run linux.
I guess you qualify as "one of the very few people"
Hey, if they can port Ragnarok Online to Linux and make it work wonderfully without using a Windows emulator, then I can finally switch my main desktop to Linux.
I'll drop some more! Oh it's not hard. There's even one UID posting interesting stuff at -1 default.
-I am an elective eunuch.
"If you build it, they will come"... Loki were betting on that, and they went belly-up a couple of short years after the beginning of their existence. Sure, they released some old games, but some of them, like Quake 3, were released simultaneously on Windows and Linux.
Why would I, as a developer, want to support yet another OS? It's hard enough to port from console to Windows and vice versa. The number of people that would buy a Linux version probably wouldn't pay for the cost of development.
Heck around here I hear tons of people calling their tower "the hard drive". If I talked about partions they'd probably think I was talking about PCI cards. At least the ones that have SEEN an open case before.
As for me, I could install linux for gaming, but I don't, and lack of games and other fun apps is the main reason I'm still on windows. Why don't I install it? Because I know better. Every so often I try this, and then it's fight with some soundcard or video driver, or try and get something to compile, etc. Then it's back to IRC to hear "RTFM." "OMG N00B! Go back to MS!" "STFW or read the man pages." (like I haven't tried this before even showing up). Occasionally I'll almost get some help and then wind up somewhere along the lines of "Ok now go vi the make file. Search for appname\etc\conf\rc\too\many\damn\levels\autoconf and then look for the one with -j 17 but not -q 4, then change the IP to the broadcast of your subnet... what do you mean it won't go? No of course arrow keys don't make an editor go down to the next line, who would think such a stupid thing? Of course backspace doesn't erase what's behind it, that would be retarded. Anyway, once you get there just recompile the dependencies and fetch the two packages the newspost mentioned and recompile. Then update your drivers and recompile the other one." If I complain about the obscurity or bad design of anything I get labeled a moron and further help is withheld. I mean obviously I must be a moron if you can't remember the 273 custom switches and arguments for the 81 commands I need to use to get the thing to work, plus all the regular expression rules and the multiple scripting languages, right?
I grew up using DOS. I still prefer the command line over a GUI for many things. I've theorized, designed, and coded an open source fractal-wavelet based video codec from scratch by myself (shameless plug and desperate plea for dev/debugging help). I've been playing games so long I started out at arcades standing on a milk crate so I could reach. If linux gaming isn't even getting me interested, something's not there, and sorry but I don't think it's me that's the problem. Just my opinion.
Even when it does work, once the novelty of "Wow I'm playing a 3 year old game everyone's already bored of... on linux!" wears off, you go "Hmm, what else can I play? Lemme reboot." and then once you're back in windows you never think to yourself "Oops, gotta reboot to linux for that." You just play the games there, they work, and there's no reason to boot back.
Introducing the new Occam Fusion! Now with sqrt(-1) fewer blades!
This is a pretty wild topic, when you consider the wider scheme of things, and the events that are taking place in the world.
I find it amazing that people here are considering how to improve Linux gaming, when PC gaming itself is beginning to fade away completely. I have never seen so many mediocre games being released for PC before, and the market is suffering a major downturn.
The reason? Console gaming. The big production houses want money. They get more money from McDonalds happy meal console games than from a five course PC game sized dinner. They squeeze a tiny bit of extra revenue by porting these games (badly) to the PC and making a godawful product, which in turn makes PC gaming look even worse.
Oh, there are still some big games coming out for PC, but there won't be any more big PC exclusives. Fallout 3 was canned. DooM3, the so-called "pinnacle" of the 3D realtime gaming engine religion, is being clumsily hacked down so it can work on a three year old console platform. How sophisticated is that? If they'd have written the original DooM so it could run on the Sega Master System, I hardly think the FPS revolution would ever have occurred.
If they start porting console games to Linux, you guys will be wishing you never even thought of Linux as a gaming platform. With the games that are available now, you could almost say anything like Wolverines Revenge would be pollution in a pristine environment.
I say, lets worry about PC games in general before we get down to the specifics of the O/S. PC gamers have grown up on filet mignon and fine red wine. Get used to value meals and fat fried chicken nuggets.
I am government man, come from the government. The government has sent me. -- G.I.R.
I'd be happy if they'd just port Ultimate Bet's Poker Software. The only things I play on my PC are Diablo II (which I can use WineX to play) and Poker (via UltimateBet). I tried using wine to play on UB, but they require IE to use their software, I even tried to install IE using wineX, but it didn't like that one bit. So, as it is, i just have to reboot into Windows to play poker inbetween sessions of working on homework.
I don't game on linux because I don't like first person shooters. Yeah, they can be fun for the first hour, but its the thinking games, like the real-time strategies(Age Of Empires, Generals, Rise Of Nations) that I like and there doesn't even seem to be a whisper of these types of titles coming out on Linux.
I agree that simply estimating an 18m figure is without question inaccurate. As much as I hate to admit it, greater market research is needed (shudder).
.... just how many remains to be seen.
... that is the goal, after all. If as a matter of course you develop your game using open tools that are runnable independent of hardware (as long as they meet perfermance requirements), and porting becomes largely painless, who cares where the sales come from? The ultimate number, the one that matters to the prez and investors, is total revenue.
An answer to your first three points is irrelevant until you start generating stats to estimate marketing success, which would undoubtedly be important to management to decide the big IF ; I contend that out of 18 million people, there are at least 0.27% who meet the criteria of desktop user + gamer. It is not required for them to be an exclusive linux user. These people are out there
As for replacing win32 sales
I agree, it would be awesome. But don't forget about the ten kajillion different PCI and AGP cards out there.
Your game would have to ship with every driver for every video card, sound card, and even USB drivers for non-standard USB cards, so that people's mice and joysticks would work. Even the integrated USB devices on many motherboards aren't fully compliant with the spec and require custom drivers. Heck, even IDE controllers are often non standard. Shipping an OS really isn't a big deal; it's the drivers.
You'd have to ship two CD's -- one for the game and one just to fit the OS plus drivers.
Why must there be a different distrobution for every primary use? Shouldnt linux be flexible enough to have one distrobution fits all (or at least one style of administration)?
I had a b1tch of a time getting 3d working on my radeon 9500 with redhat. and I had to accept the fact that the drivers were not GPL, it sucked.
It is tough to get ATI cards working correctly on linux from what I hear.
Setting up my Nvidia card, OTOH was a walk in the park. I dowloaded the linux drivers from the nvidia website, and 5 minutes later I was watching 3D screensavers at 200 frames/second -
These two game shipped out of the box with linux compatibility. There may be others but I dunno.
Its the users who need to have more involvment, not the developers. Gentoo already is basically a gaming based distro for many people. Gentoo is why Linux gaming is more popular than it ever was. And there is Knoppix??!?! A Linux distro with games is not new. Mandrake Gaming edtion anyone? If anything,its the USERS who need to start lobbying the publishers, not the develpopers. Once critical mass hits and the number of Linux gamers mean $$$$$ then we'll see games. Its really as simple as that. BTW....UT2004 is the best game ever to be released for Linux. I love you Epic.
As for replacing win32 sales ... that is the goal, after all ...
... If as a matter of course you develop your game using open tools that are runnable independent of hardware (as long as they meet perfermance requirements), ...
... and porting becomes largely painless, who cares where the sales come from? The ultimate number, the one that matters to the prez and investors, is total revenue.
No, as a commercial developer the goal is to maximize profit. Evangelizing and promoting Linux is not the goal.
OK, now you seem to be engaging in academic hand waving. Games are inherently one type of software that gets very close to the hardware and is very sensitive to API performance. Cross-platform APIs are sometimes not the best performers and not the most feature complete. Finally, cross-platform APIs are not a magic bullet. You will spend time tracking down problems on one platform that did not exist on the others. Even with a very good cross-platform API like openGL you will find one platform's implementation less complete or less optimized. The fast path on one platform will be slow on the other. Some hardware induced issue like byte ordering are not avoidable at all. Related problems are native data formats for the platform, again OpenGL, one data format may be favored on one platform and not the other, OpenGL may do time consuming coversions behind your back.
Your premise that developing the Linux version is virtually cost free is wrong. Not even considering testing and support as an additional cost is unbelievably naive. The fact remains, if most Linux gamers dual boot or emulate the most profitable option for a developer is to let Linux gamers continue buying the Win32 version of a game.
Is the same way it happens for Mac ports.
Game company A makes a windows game and sells a few million copise. Game publisher B sees this, pays company A to let them port the game and company C to do the actual porting.
The mac publisher (Like Aspyr, Macplay, or Destineer) has to pay for the game license, and for the porting company (Westlake, Omnigroup, or a few others) so that they can finally sell a few thousand copies of the game to mac users. In addition, of course, to paying royalties on the sales they DO make (in addition to the initial licensing fee) and support for the mac version.
Most ports require very little effort by the PC developers and publishers, but a LOT of effort and capital by the porting publisher themselves. This is why Loki went out of business. A hit with a 5% install base will give you just about enough money to pay for your next release. That's a really tough way to sustain development.
What Linux needs (and mac needs more of) are native, top-quality developers making mac and Linux first games. Ambrosia Software comes to mind on the mac; although they use a shareware business principal, their games are easily on the same level as most commercial offering. Bungie (of Halo fame/infamy) started out as the Mac's most popular/famous developer before they began first cross-developing with windows, and then being purchased by Microsoft for XBox development.
Companies like this are equivalent to exclusive releases to consoles. You have to have games that you can't get any other way.
What linux needs is developers making great linux games. Games that make windows gamers install linux just to play in the same way people buy an Xbox to play Halo.
apt-get install doom3
With entire gaming systems available for the price of a decent video card (Gamecubes and PS2s are under $150 now), what is the incentive for the casual gamer to set up a complicated computer to play a game? It used to be PCs had the advantage with networking, but that is quickly going away due to XBox live and similar services. You can even hook regular keyboards/mice up to these systems now, so what's left for a PC to do? All a console is a CHEAP, specialized PC, with Joe User not caring the least bit what operating system it is running, so long as he can play Tony Hawk and have it look pretty.
I envision Linux digging out a niche in the game SERVER market, which makes far more sense as I've always felt Linux filled the server niche very nicely.
Perhaps, we need to attack the issue from a different perspective. There was once a time when Linux, lacked everything. Linux is where it is today, because some motivated, determined and skilled developer out there decided an open, libre or "free" version of a software application, tool or library was missing, and therefore decided to right one against all odds and logical reasoning. Today, Linux boast of many of the tools available in any operating system, ranging from embedded, to desktop, to server, even up to mainframes and supercomputing applications. I think Linux should approach gaming software the same way we have approached all or many other software applications existing in Linux and free Unix-like systems. You ask what the approach was that? Well, it's simple! We beging by saying "To hell with vendors!; to hell with big business; to hell with EA sports!; to hell with {enter your favorite publisher/ proprietary developer/vendors}." Aha, I see you laughing. But how do you think your KDE, your GNOME, your Openbox, your vim were born? Was it by begging, sucking up and kissing the asses of your various "billion dollar software businesses?" Or was it by saying screw them, will do our own zero-dollar-zero-bugdet-all-nighter thingy in our spare time? Yes, the gaming stories will be bland. The graphics will be ridiculous. The game plot will be horrid. But it's a start. And years from now, DOOM16 or Windows, will be no better than (K)/(G)OOM5 on Linux. Just in case I beginning to sound confusing. What I'm advocating is a group of developers, artists, enthusiasts, evangelists, fanatics, documenters devoted to writing and playing games on Linux and free operating systems. Much like KDE, GNOME, XFCE, *Box, started from nothing and many times ridicule, we need groups or rival gaming developers competing against each other and at the same time sharing their technologies to bring gaming to the Linux and Free Unix masses at first, and the world at large later. So if my perspective is so exciting, why is it not happening? I think I have a clue. Although Linux is a free operating system with an impressive array of free development tools, many of them aren't attractive to use to modern developers. I mean, lets be serious, vim and emacs are cool and all, but the you honestly think Jack will give up VisualStudio.NET or Xcode to be plagued by the esoterism of vim or emacs? My Unix Uncle will not hesitate to shoot me for that rhetorical question. Well, I don't blame him. He is one of them who think RAD developers should be hung as they are responsible for all the evil, insecure, buggy and spaghetti code in the world. But lets face RAD is the thing now. And that is what your hobbiest developer wants. Fun while coding, GOOM's AI. I think we are at a stage in the Linux/open source software where we are focusing too much on users and assuming developers are smart enough to figure out tools themselves. Sometimes I wish the efforts directed on making Linux easy for Auntie Tille could have been redirected on making powerful development tools, like valgrind, Mono, GTK+, Eclipse to mention a few. We need to push development to the point where it is exceedingly easy, fun and exciting to write applications. Game development in Linux for the hobbyist is appauling. At least for application development there are tools albeit scattered, cryptic and old age inducing. When it comes to open / free gaming development tool kits, I know of none. I long for the day where I would install a development kit that I can use to develop games, apps, libraries, drivers, embedded devices all withing the development kit and environment. And hopefully, that environment will be easy to install, use and will be well documented. To recap, Linux needs two attitudes to bring gaming to it. Competing gaming communities involving gamers, developers, artist, documentation writers, testers etc. Just as we have in the desktop arena. And secondly, an impressive development environment that will make delphi users drool, Mac developers switch yet again, and Windows develope
"My logic is undeniable."
disclamer: all of those ideas are taken from an earlier comment on a earlier story witch I can't remember.
Maybe we are getting all wrong with the joe-user-can't-install-it's-video-drivers.
Look at knoppix. A bootable cd with a linux kernel and kde inside. It auto detects everything and without even touching your hd you run a kde sessions. Every Joe User on earth can do just that. Put the goddamn cd in the drive and reboot.
Now think of a system that consist of a custom linux kernel designed to run your game you develop, with a good auto-detect alrgorithm to support the bare minimum it needs (audio, video, maybe networking). You then have a system to write games on multi platforms. You (almost) only have to burn your iso to special medias (like for the cube) so your game works on the various console.
One OS on witch you develop your games, multiple systems on witch your game runs with minimum effort. Add the ability to save on a usb key and you just turn your PC into a console: just put the goddamn cd into the drive and play. No install, no crazy shit with the registery, no dll hell, no minimum requirement for DirectX, etc...
Well, this OS can be linux, and with that in mind Joe User wont have to install linux at, but yet you got games that could run natively on linux, if you configure your system correctly.
I don't know if that's really a possibility, but it's fun to think about it.
the approach is wrong.. as a gamer, my primary concern is not the OS on which the game will run, but the game itself and wether it will run on the platforms available to me... it irks me when I see a game I like and cannot play it because its for a different console or a different OS. Going back in time... the shift from DOS to Win95 was slow because most games - doom, duke3d,descent, shadow warrior etc etc ran on DOS.. and wingames was a synonym for cheap squiggly graphics puzzle oriented games. Hence DirectX was born. Loki tried to re-engineer games to be linux-compatible.. but i think that's a waste of time and resources. The designers/publishers should have a small porting team which ports the code as the game is being developed (or just after). :(
Ofcourse, Linux can be worked on to make it a a stable gaming platform - but the way its being portrayed.. its like they want it to be THE gaming platform.. a replacement.... which means the enterprise software will run on one OS and the games on another
|/________
|\A|ALYS|
Anybody else catch the gripes from one of the developers about the quality of Visual C++ code as compared to the quality of GCC code? He seemed to think that the VC++ code was better optimized, and in general regarded Windows as the better development platform. I'm not a serious programmer (I just play on on Slashdot), and my projects are small and none too complicated. Can anyone else comment on this? Is he talking sense, or blowing smoke?
How can I play a game when I'm blind?
YOU INSENSITIVE CLOD!
... then I next read "Net..." in the response, and my mind automatically filled in the rest:
Netcraft confirms this.
Oi, too much Slashdot for one day.
- sm
It is touched on in the article, but also some of the back and forth got trimmed (length limits for the magazine).
Co-Editor, Open Sources
Open Source Program Manager, Google, Inc.
For now DirectX offer a great deal better control of videocard memory. It's essential for disk-streaming application, like big seamless open terrain worlds. To write disk streaming (especially vertex streaming) in OpenGL is a huge pain. OpenGL have another advantage though, and that is why it would hardly die, and maybe outlive DirectX. And it's is not crosplatforming even.All versions of OpenGL are source compatible. Ten years old OpenGL code still working. With DirectX you have to completly rewrite all DX related code every 1-1.5 years, with every new numbered release. Hell, even DX summer update 9.0b is not source compatible with D9.0a (have different animation API)
Linux has a LONG way to go before it will convert someone like me. ...not that i'd ever want to), so I consider it pretty safe. No viruses or other crap, which is nice. But on the whole I don't really like Microsoft. And I don't really like being forced to use their standards and software. Switching to something else would be wonderful! ...as long as it worked.
//Begin Idiot Gamer Mode//
Who am I? A fairly typical or above average Gamer/Windows power user, i'd say. Probably above average, considering I built my computer from scratch (yay!), and recognize a handful of Linux buzzwords. Anyways, there are generally four things I use my computer for:
-Games
-Teh intarnet
-Art (PS/PSP, Maya/Max)
-Music (omgomgomg, MP3s!)
I run my quiet little Windows XP(home) box. It has plenty of the usual bandaid programs on it (Kerio/AVG/AdAware), and I try to stay away from M$ programs as much as possible (IE is only for emergencies, and I buried OE somewhere so deep and dark i'm not sure I could find it again.
So I guess that pretty much puts me dead center in the "games 4 linux" crosshairs. In theory, I should be a pretty simple convert, right? Err, actually... actually, I'm actually very resistant to Linux (please don't stone me untill after my speech, kthnx). Why? Well, lets take a trip through stupid gamer land:
Starting off with Linux in general...
-Linux? Thats that confusing OS, right? Sorry, don't have time to hunt for packages/screw with command lines/read a million help files/troll forums for answers to stupid questions. Especially not asking for help. I just know i'll get told 'RTFM' when i'm having a problem... *sigh*. If only Linux was more user friendly! Whats a rm -fr / anyways?
-Distro? Oh, gee... I don't know. There are so many! Knoppix is just for peeking. RedHat and Mandrake... aren't those "newbie" distros? I don't want to be called a newbie, so no thanks. Gentoo? Thats like, REALLY hard, right? Debian sounds fun, but I don't think i'm that smart. SuSE? Isn't that for businesses and stuff? Oh, and that Slackwhatever sounds like, impossible. Lycorsis and Lindows... pfft, I want to get AWAY from Windows, thanks. Xandros? Whats that?
Wow.. there are so many choices! None of them seem like they're targeted at ME though. And anyways... why so many? I don't want to have to choose... what if I miss out on something! Some feature that distro X has that my distro Y doesn't but I really really want? Man, i'm really frustrated and confused right now. At least with Windows its all the same...
-My hardware... um, will it all work? Drivers for my Radeon 9700 Pro? Its a GREAT gaming card... I spent a lot of money on it too. No drivers, no deal. Oh, and are there audio drivers for my sound (nForce Soundstorm) too? Ah yes, and the last thing... my entire harddrive (almost full) is NTFS. I don't want to loose 70gb of information just to use Linux! Oh, and whats all this stuff about USB and plug and play? Shouldn't that just, like, work?
-My software. Ack! I have so much of this! Lets see... I need web utilities. Already got Firefox and Thunderbird, so thats good. I'll need an FTP proggy too (I use smartFTP right now), oh, and of course, Kazaa. Some benchmarking and utility programs would be nice too (I AM a gamer after all). Soo, like Sandra, Prime, cpuz, FRAPS, etc. Oh, and I need all my pretty desktop customization programs (or equivalent) to make things look like I want... ObjectBar, Sysmetrix, Rainlendar, and LogonStudio is what I run ATM. Then i'll need media stuff... I like Sonique, and i'm trying to get more skill with Photoshop (big one), Paint Shop Pro, Maya, and Max. Oh oh, and i'll need Nero or something to burn CDs with. Ok, now onto games... yes, lots of games. I have a *ton* of classics. Everything from System Shock to Scorched Earth. They barely run under Windows though... I doubt they have Linux equivalents, though maybe WineX can figure them out? Old games can
Game development takes more than just coding, right? Artwork, music, voice-overs, lots of stuff. And all Linux has is a ton of great coders, right? Dude:
http://www.kde-look.org - We've got artists.
http://kguitar.sourceforge.net - Somebody's gotta be a musician out there.
http://www.fsf.org - RMS loves to talk.
Comon guys, just get 'em all together!
Loki died, not because the people talking about buying Linux games were lying, but for other reasons.
Loki took on the porting or support of 21 different titles at a tune of at least $20-50k per title and royalties proportionate to if someone was selling an actual Windows game.
Loki went about the process of doing the actual publishing of the games in a manner that one would expect of a Windows publisher- thereby making the break-even levels nigh impossible to achieve.
Loki went about doing incredible, amazingly stupid things like ordering 50k units of CD's and those little metal tins for Q3:A, causing a delay in the ship date, creating impossible margins on the product when they should have ordered about 5k of the CD's and used DVD boxes to cut costs and get the official Linux version in people's hands in about the same timeframe as the official release (So that people wouldn't have went and bought the Windows version and "patched" it with the binaries set from Id...).
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
I think I could put more work into it, but so far I already spend more time than I think the average user will.
I admit though, that the scanning for new hardware and automounting of DOS harddrives has greatly simplified use of linux. That is, if you forget that now I have every drive put twice on the desktop because it maps both /dev/hda2 and /a which is where I let mount /dev/hda2.
Getting games from sourceforge is a good idea, but it often requires you to install extra packages and upgrade existing ones, and sometimes makes you wonder if you don't break anything in the process.
So this again is something that may be beyond that what average joe who has problems to beat games with invulnerability turned on will do. It's not an important issue for open source because open source lives by the people who DO spend a lot of times figuring out things and can contribute.
Another thing is grapics. The only widespread and shared graphics is TuX the penguin. It would be cool if you had a repository of 3D models and a toolchain to take images from that to be used across a range of games. Maybe such a place does exist, but I must have missed that news.
I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
indeed
linux as the same problem as the mac
its stuck in this destructive cycle
developers dont make games for linux because of lack of gamers
gamers dont use linux because of lack of games
Charge for the Windows version.
Release the Linux version for free.
Game makers still make all their money, the windows folks out number the linux folks by a huge margin. But, never underestimate Joe Windows-came-pre-installed's wanten need to save a buck.
Also, for the game creator this brings much geek love. Geek love is ofcourse the best type of love. If only women could learn that lesson.
So game creator X, you have a raving band of loving geeks? What do you want to do with em?
--------
I never want a tagline... NEVER!
It is no longer uncommon to be uncommon.
Is the ease of portability between PC and XBox. With GC and PS2 you are looking at entirely different architecture anyway, but when you pair OGL and D3D, your tradeoff is essentially:
OpenGL: PC and Linux
DirectX: PC and XBox
From a perspective of sales, there is really no question where the profit is.
DRI (direct rendering infrastructure) is a framework for allowing direct access to graphics hardware in a safe and efficient manner.Their site has all the information. :-)
.... I have got a Morphix Game Edition distro CD
.......... done!
Last year I went to an IT exhibition. There were many counters selling Windoz games, but I could not found a single Linux game CD.
When I downloaded a 3D Linux game, I discovered that graphics card of my computer is not supported properly under Linux, as 3D modelling was being done in software in the lack of proper hardware driver.
At DRI site I found some information to solve this problem. I am working on it currently. If I will be able to play first 3D game on my Linux machine.....I'll let you know
I'll contribute to DRI project myself if i have to because I have, one more motivating factor now
generatign sing... please wait
~Aha~
Yeah but Joe User will never go for that, why would he want to spend time reading techie manuals when Linux just takes care of this for him. XP will never be ready for the desktop so long as they ignore their users like this.
One point I didn't see in the discussion above - why build games for a bunch of people who are notorious for wanting free stuff? That hardly seems like a healthy basis for a market.
-Jeff
Please learn the difference between a dissenting opinion and a troll before you moderate.
And I don't give a rat's arse if they're open source. I want them fast, I want them prominently available from hardware vendors and/or distributors, and most of all, I don't want to have to play a Towers of Hannoi with dependencies and command lines to get them to install and work on a stock Red Hat or SuSE system.
Oh, I know it should be simple enough, but it isn't. Google for problems with (e.g.) NVidia drivers with SuSE distros and that should give you a sample of the fun that awaits. For every twitchy zealot who'll chime in saying "Well, it just worked on my system!" (even though Linux cognitive dissonance means it probably didn't "just work") there will be someone who eventually got it to work after hours of hacking and begging for help in forums, someone who gave up on it, and someone who thinks it worked but who is still using old drivers without knowing it because they missed the "Wrong version of fleem" error in the forty screens of script output that ended with an "Install complete."
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Let me get this straight - desktop penetration is nil (for practical purposes) but suddenly game writers are going to add yet another platform to code to simply because some graphic drivers are finally available.
We all know how popular the Mac is for gaming, so this must be true.
Get a clue people - until the 'linux elite' gets off their high horse and makes Linux a LOT easier to install and use, this ain't gonna happen. I hold you people responsible the same as Steve Jobs. It's the 'nose in the air' attitude that has stuck us in windows. Yep, that's right, I think windows sucks, but it's where I make my money....
Correction: Linux/x86-32.
IMHO the reason that MOST (so please don't list the 3 games that rock) games stink on Linux is that they rely on X11 and no matter how much you pretty up X11 (gnome, KDE, enlightenment) it still stinks. Especially if you goal is to make a gaming console then you need an API that people can program against that allows high end graphics without any kind of window manager or X11 to get in the way. Then if someone codes a game the first and only graphics you see is the game.
Don't worry all you Linux Zealots I am sure within a week of something like this being deployed you will be able to run whatever distribution of Linux you want on it.
With that said, if I were to build a game console I would base it off of BSD because it would keep my company far from all the people trying to tell me which parts of the code are Open Source and which parts are not. I wouldn't have to release any source, unless I wanted to. Most people that are pro Linux ask why more companies don't base their products on Linux then bitch and complain when a company does but doesn't release a driver or some other piece of code and a huge debate opens up about GPL compliance. Frankly I just don't think it's worth the frustration. It's just my opinion but I believe that GPL will be the death of Linux. Before you flame this post please tell me one thing that Linux has that BSD does not. I can tell you that BSD has Freedom to protect IP and GPL does not.
Nick Powers
Encryption: I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to encrypt it...
To have a really successful linux gaming platform, the linux developers need to work on a kick ass set of tools to make porting games easy as clicking a few buttons. Yes, I'm a software developer myself, and yes, I know this is MUCH more difficult than it sounds, and yes, I know that they can't go rewriting DirectX on Linux (or can they?).
No, what you need is for the linux developers to swallow their pride and create a large suite of tools that work well with both Linux and Windows, and make it compelling enough that Windows development houses will use it *instead* of DirectX. Take the standard away from Microsoft, and control the tools, make it so that writing cross-platform games means you only have to write the code once and don't have to do much (if any) extra work.
Is it ambitious? Of course! Will anything less fit the bill? No, in my humble opinion.
The very top reason I run Windows on my desktop at home is for games. I would absolutely love it if that changed.
I would gladly donate my time to such a project. Anyone else?
WWJD? JWRTFA!
Anyone know enough about knoppix to say whether it's possible for a knoppix distro to:
* Ask the user to insert a CD with the nVidia/ATI drivers
* Test for a valid connection to the outside world and download/install the drivers automatically
* Just use the default video drivers if nothing else works.
* Test for soundcard type and cycle through a list of possible soundcard drivers. Ask the user for feedback on whether sound works before moving on to the next possibility.
I want to believe that knoppix can allow someone to (BOOM) see how cool a linux game on the their Windows box can be
Is it possible to design a knoppix distro to:
* Ask the user to insert a CD with the nVidia/ATI drivers (tell the user where/how to download if necessary and exit to let user create CD), or:
* Have the user point to the downloaded drivers on some read-only harddrive, or:
* Test for a valid connection to the outside world and download/install the drivers automatically, or:
* Just use the default video drivers if nothing else works.
* Test for soundcard type and cycle through a list of possible soundcard drivers. Ask the user for feedback on whether sound works before moving on to the next possibility.
I want to believe that knoppix can allow someone to (BOOM) see how cool a linux game on the their Windows box can be. How far can Knoppix go toward this goal?
No thank you for rewriting history. If Loki need to sell 30,000 games to "break-even" and they only sold 2500, that's not a management problem. That's a "no market for your product" problem.
(And these were "actual Windows games" -- why should the royalties be any different just because they were on LInux?)
I'm smart enough to build my own Win boxes from left-over parts (or brand-new when I'm rich) and troubleshoot for my entire family, so I should be able to handle it. Right???
It was like doing your fucking taxes. Looks simple, but it's a trap (heehee... Fark cross-over represent!) I was able to obtain and load Redhat9 and began to think "Linux is easy! Everyone is stupid but ME..."
Then I needed to install programs. As I continually search forums for definitions to all the buzz-words (Distro, Tarball, Root, etc...), I find more programs that I don't have (but need before I can install the original package).
So being a good little geek, I research and study and ask for help (only to be blasted for being stupid and told to "Go back to M$ if you want quick and easy, n00b!!!"). After finally getting through 107 installs so I can install the 1 thing I wanted, I find out that my hardware won't work with MythTV. Not now, not ever...
FF to an hour later... I've deleted all Linux partitions and have WinXP MCE 2004 installed and downloading the first of several updates. Now I wonder how the "N00b" OS of Linux kicked my ass (even though I was willing and able to do the research 98% of the world will not and cannot do) and have a hard time seeing how I'll have the time/energy/hardware/balls to try again in the future...
Too bad... I kinda liked the feeling of being out from under Bill's thumb...
Come and see the violence inherent in the system!
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
Loki only "needed" to sell 30k units to break even because they set themselves up in situations that NEEDED those numbers.
MacOS titles only sell about 5k units, typically- and the companies that are selling the titles in question seem to be doing okay for themselves (Though they sometimes end up making Windows versions if the game came from the MacOS side of the equation to really rake in the dough- and it's merely because of the numbers on that side of the equation...). They typically work out deals so that 3-5k units makes some small amount of profit- or they would also go out of business.
And yes, typically, the royalties on the deals done for MacOS titles are such that everybody makes some small money out of the niche. Loki, from what I understand, didn't get as good a deal on many of the titles they ported as they could have. Combine that with stupid things like the tins and ridiculously large production runs which ate up the company's coffers (Along with some rather shady dealings done under the table by some of the principals...), they couldn't have ever "made it"- they'd have closed their doors, even if they were a Windows game house.
Loki's not so much an example of a "no market for your product" as it is bad business decisions combined with the retail channel NOT selling the stuff. Yes, they were supposed to have their games on the shelves in places like CompUSA, Best Buy, etc. Their distributor dropped the ball on that one and then shortly went out of business. The Q3A debacle was one of Loki delaying the game so that people that couldn't wait for the official Linux installer went and bought the Windows version and "patched" it with the binary set for Linux- that and you just couldn't find a copy of the Linux version on the shelves until months AFTER the release of the game.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Hmm, dual-booting is seemingly quite popular but is it really that popular? I don't have any version of Windows anymore, I'm buying Linux games and would never buy a Windows game for even emulated usage. It's just a similar choice of gaming platform as between Windows, X-Box, PS2, Gamecube or ever N-Gage. My choice is Linux, and I'm happy with the (commercial) games I have. Doom 3 will be the next one I'm interested in. I understand that people migrating from Windows are often dual-booting, and I did it myself earlier. However, I always had the intention to dump Windows and move all the content and files to Linux "when I have time". I guess the number of "pure" Linux (or other non-Windows systems) users is growing all the time. It takes unfortunately some effort to find out a comparable solution in Linux for every proprietary/closed thing Windows had, but in the end the solutions in Linux were almost constantly better and the end result is great.
Maybe it has been said before, but anyway:
;-)
Bootable Linux distro
+ auto-launched game
+ USB flash drive
= zero-install game
Live CD distros such as Knoppix seem to be rather popular these days and work fairly well (hardware autodetection...). So this solution is already viable for booting into a desktop environment. But what if it booted into a gaming environment? And what if it booted directly into the game?
Sounds familiar? PC + bootable game + USB flash drive = PS2/XBox + game CD + memory card.
So, instead of a game-based distro, one could create a linux-based framework for developing bootable games. Thanks to Linux being open source, we can modify the boot process at will. This is something we can't do as easily with proprietary systems (Windows), so the real advantage of OSS is obvious here.
With such a framework, the OS could be specifically tailored for gaming needs by removing all the useless stuff (unused daemons...). We could for example use SFF PCs (Shuttle...), possibly diskless, as game consoles.
The game becomes the distro. As it is linux-based, one could also launch or install the game from a regular linux environment instead of booting. And it could also be launched on Windows boxes since it bypasses the system completely. Or even on Mac if the proper kernel & binaries are installed. Or even on PS2 or XBox, why not
Frankly, Linux has a looooooooooooooong way to come in terms of games.
Don't kid yourself, it was both.
"Game makers want to latest and greatest hardware for the best eye candy and performance."
Not 100% true, but true enough as a generalization. And it is because looks sell, sadly, rather than gameplay. And the more powerful the computer, the better the games look.
"Running linux on old hardware just isn't going to give good performance."
It'll give better performance than running Windows on the same computer, but it'll probably not matter to anyone pushing the hardware, not the operating system.
"While linux users may hate to admit it, very few people are buying the absolute fastest hardware out there to run linux. And until they do, the gaming market of linux will remain very small."
This belief is one of the reasons keeping the gaming market down. Another is that publishers don't see much money in making games that run on Linux, either exclusively or alongside Windows or Mac platforms. And since it is the publishers holding the purse-strings, they have us who do games by the balls.
Christopher S. 'coldacid' Charabaruk -- coldacid.net