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Salon on Geeks and Sex
Runna^Muck was the first to write to us about a new Salon article discussing the sexual climate in Silicon Valley. Not nearly as good as other articles on the subject, this feature covers everything from Geeks & their dominant tastes as well as why foreign workers don't get lucky.
You mean that women are real and not just in pictures?
Must be the west-coast environment that's inhibiting...
if ($article =~ /completely_pseudocode/) { /completely_english/) {
$ok = 1;
} elsif ($article =~
$ok = 1;
} else {
This mixing gets annoying and hard to read, doesn't it? The comment is not the code. English doesn't get mixed with pseudocode well.
}
Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.
In some kind of pseudo code. Couldn't read more than two pages.
Besides isn't the problem that many geeks are arrogant assholes and no girls put up with them for long? Not a flame just a question.
Upgrade GirlFriend 1.0 to Wife 1.0
Last year a friend of mine upgraded from GirlFriend 1.0 to Wife 1.0 and found that it's a memory hog leaving very little system resources available for other applications.
He is only now noticing that Wife 1.0 is also spawning Child Processes which are further consuming valuable resources. No mention of this particular phenomenon was included in the product brochure or the documentation, though other users have informed him that this is to be expected due to the nature of the application. Not only that, Wife 1.0 installs itself such that it is always launched at system initialization, where it can monitor all other system activity. He's finding that some applications such as PokerNight 10.3, BeerBash 2.5, and PubNight 7.0 are no longer able to run in the system at all, crashing the system when selected (even though they always worked fine before). During installation, Wife 1.0 provides no option as to the installation of undesired Plug-ins such as MotherInLaw 55.8 and SisterInLaw Beta release. Also, system performance seems to diminish with each passing day.
Some features he'd like to see in the upcoming Wife 2.0:
I myself decided to avoid the headaches associated with Wife 1.0 by sticking with Girlfriend 2.0. Even here, however, I found many problems. Apparently you cannot install Girlfriend 2.0 on top of Girlfriend 1.0. You must uninstall Girlfriend 1.0 first. Other users say this is a long standing bug that I should have known about. Apparently the versions of Girlfriend have conflicts over shared use of the I/O port. You would think they would have fixed such a stupid bug by now. To make matters worse, the uninstall program for Girlfriend 1.0 doesn't work very well leaving undesirable traces of the application in the system.
Another thing -- all versions of Girlfriend continually popup little annoying messages about the advantages of upgrading to Wife 1.0
*** BUG WARNING ****
Wife 1.0 has an undocumented bug. If you try to install Mistress 1.1 before uninstalling Wife 1.0, Wife 1.0 will delete MSMoney files before doing the uninstall itself. Then Mistress 1.1 will refuse to install; claiming insufficient resources.
yes, i did the same last march, though i was never "blessed" with the child plug-in and haven't yet managed to get that install procedure completed. While mine does have the option of a minimize, it is an unstable release and dosen't always do what its supposed too...still some sproatic attivity occasionally. to bad i don't have the source code to hack it...
What was the name of the closet in the movie?
Relationships are hard work. Most people don't put the time necessary into developing/maintaining a relationship.
:)
I think the article is missing the point. It's not a problem of geeks not having sex, it's a problem of geeks having difficulties forming non-computer based relationships. People don't tend to react the same way twice to a given action. This tends to confuse most geeks. You can't walk up to a non-geek, press here, say this, kiss, and hop in bed with them. Seinfeld put it best -- "When it comes to sex, men are like firemen. Always ready. Women are like fire. Not always there when you want it, but when the conditions are right, the result is magical."
I've been married for a spell now, and I have three kids. When my wife and I started dating, we did not hop immediately into bed. We had to get to know each other first.
Sex is mutual concent between two people. Build the relationship and they will come.
--
then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel is just a freight train coming your way
It strikes me all the pseudocode is there just to cover up the lack of real material in the article. Yes, some high-tech workers don't have sex high on the priority list. It happens in Silicon Valley and I've seen it happen in Michigan (not a jab at the Geek Compound; I have friends in Michigan parts of this article describe). So some geeks like alternate sexual methodologies. So? I think that the article would have fit in one page without all the bad (and sometimes buggy) pseudocode.
In fact, I'd have to argue that various bits of alternative sexuality don't have precise protocols. Not being into all the alternatives I cannot comment on them, but I don't think there's a big book of algorithms for going about alternative sexual practices. It's just that high-tech workers know what they want. They're not about to go and not communicate their needs because they think that doing so would be filthy. We know what we want, not that we have a precise checklist.
salon sucks a fat one. i have yet to read a good article from them. they remind me of jonkatz's articles. utterly pointless.
I'm trying to figure out if all that pseudocode was really there to be cute and stylish, or if it was to conceal the lack of susbstance. But this is Salon, so both answers may be correct.
When I'm singing a ballad and a pair of underwear lands on my head, I hate that. It really kills the mood.
-Tom Jones
Begin Rant:
well, i managed to read most of the article, though my mind went drifting on the last page, no offense ppl but i could care less about Silicon Valleys BDSM fetishes and such.
As everyone else has stated the psuedo-code is really fxckin annonying (though i did think the first portion was kinda funny) then its redundent.
This in closing is primarily for Salon, and a little bit for /. WHY? How many people are truly all that interested in the sex lives of Silicon Valley, and the rest of the technoholics personal lives? ...Did we all like suddenly become symbols of American culture? ...Is Linus, Gates, or Jobs (etc.) staring in an intence romance movie or become sex-symbols?
END RANT
PS. Sorry bout that....
Sex is just an another overhyped phenomenom, that is maintained mostly by media. Sex is really very boring thing. Perhaps the myth that there's something special in sex and you should have it is maintained, because we live in matriarchal society and with controlling sex women can control the world. I have lived in selibacy in 2-3 years now, and I know this is the real way to go.
I think that if geeks expect that they will be able to find romance at work, there's nothing like an engineering company for that not to come true. Yeah, I guess it'd be nerdvana to have someone that actually understands what you do, but from my experience, that's probably not going to happen due to the abysmal M/F ratio.
But even more important, IMHO, is that you don't want to find romance at work. If something goes wrong, not only will you have the usual pressures at work, but now you've got that former someone there to just make life harder.
Not to mention that if you have a spectacular breakup, especially if the third party also works there, you'll be providing immense gossip fodder and other amusements for the rest of your coworkers. Well, OTOH, if it keeps morale up, why not?
Is this thing on? Hello?
I don't plan to answer the rather pointless barbs thrown at the communities formed around sexual alternatives, which seem to be there only so that he can draw clever but wholly bogus analogies between sex and coding. But it's certainly my experience that these communities provide valuable space where you can be clear and honest about desire without the usual embarrasment and coded messages that often end up meaning that no messages are sent at all, and this can certainly make it easier for those of us who don't find being suave and subtle comes naturally to get laid.
But the secret is that you don't have to be a sadomasochist, or polyamourous, or queer to join. All you need is a few brain cells to rub together, and a positive and open attitude about sex and sexuality. There are organisations that campaign around all issues of sexual freedom and fight negative attitudes that apply even to the very desire to have sex at all, and you can get involved even if you're monogamous, vanilla, and heterosexual. You'll meet lots of interesting and smart people and hear a lot of new ideas on the subject, and you'll certainly hear about new ways to combat the fucked-up memes about sex that this society promotes - and which, if you ask me, are the real barriers that stand in the way of more geeks finding the special pleasures of getting laid.
If you are a pervert, of course, what are you doing? Get in touch with the e-pervs in your area straight away - it's a great opportunity.
Remember, this is important - it's about the serious business of having fun.
--
Xenu loves you!
Recently I've noticed an increase in the number of articles about sex related issues. Are you trying to increase the readership by upping your chances of appearing in search engines?
...but this one decimates it.
--------
Oscarfish.com: tropical fish with attitude. Way t
I shouldn't have said arrogant asshole.
It seems like a lot of geeks have very set ideas and beliefs, go aginst it and they treat you like shit. I guess most people are that way but since the geek social codec is so complex it's easy to make mistakes. That plus the fact that many geeks aren't very verbal can make communication very hard.
Also their sometimes big egos make them reluctant to change, a prequisit in any relationship.
Maybe it's just my faliure to communicate with them that makes me judge them as assholes.
The reason why don't get much sex is because YOU ARE BORING and YOU DON'T WASH YOUR HAIR. The latter is probably easier to deal with than the former, so start with that. For the former, perhaps you could try reading a book or going to the theatre (and I don't mean movie theatre) occasionally to give yourselves something to talk about other than how great Linux is or making (yet another) joke about blue screens of death.
That has to be the lamest article I have read in a long time. In fact, the last time I read what I thought was a lame article, it was in Salon.
I got so fed up with all the pseudo-code crap that I stopped reading mid way. What is the point of all that?
The article is very difficult to read. The sentences are poorly formed. Paragraphs with central ideas don't even exist. I mean, I am reading along one line of thought, and the author breaks my concentration with a bunch of "comments" that supposedly support the current idea, when in fact they just distract me. It was damn annoying.
I mean, code is code. Prose is prose. If you are going to excercise your wit by blending then, you damn well better be exceptional at both. Otherwise you are just confusing and irritating people.
Nothing can possiblai go wrong. Er...possibly go wrong.
Strange, that's the first thing that's ever gone wrong.
Tyler's words coming out of my mouth.
You all miss the point. Human behavior related to dating and sex always in large part determined by protocols. It can't avoid that -- instincts and culture always create some kind of protocol that determines the basics -- how complete strangers are supposed to start a conversation, how reaction can be judged, etc. Personality of every person determines, what actually is done, yet the basics are just as pre-determined as normal spoken language. There is nothing insulting to our human nature in it, strict rules of English language didn't make Shakespeare a worse writer than if he invented a language for himself, they provided means of expression. And just like people now have trouble understanding some thing in Shakespeare because he used slightly different language from modern English, cultural rules, involved in dating may be completely unknown or misunderstood by a person who comes from different culrural background -- especially from different country.
When people spend their whole life in the same or similar cultural environment they spend their childhood absorbing ("learning" won't be the right word) things that aren't completely based on instinct yet never are expressed in plain words. When any serious change of environment happens people always face the fact that environment changed and their rules don't work. People, unless they are very perceptive or interested in psychology, can't understand, what rules don't work -- they never "knew" rules that they apply in the first place. They get wrong ideas about what people are trying to express. My own main complaint for a long time was a tone, Americans use in their speech, smiles at completely inappropriate times, etc -- it looked like Americans allow themselves to be or look blatantly insincere with their friends and co-workers at the extent that I would consider to be a deep personal insult -- like if in the restaurant a waiter would bring me some dish that costs about $100 and supplied me with plastic fork and knife (no offence to people who didn't mean to insule me -- this is how they looked in the content of my, completely foreign for them, Russian culture).
Most of emotions, values and even behavior norms are universal (more universal than my spelling of "behavior" for sure). No self-respecting male geek (I am talking about men here) would tell a girl that he loves her, and be disinterested in her feelings, or would not try to make her feel comfortable. But the form, in which he would do that, or, even worse, form, in which he would try to start a conversation or judge first reaction to him, would unlikely match local cultural norms. Neither he nor girl would really understand it -- both are acting on things that never were written, expressed or explained to them, but both would feel discomfort in such a situation. In modern culture such discomfort is often expressed as that "chemistry" wasn't compatible (or, in subcultures that are not so fond for pseudoscientific explanations, "I have got a feeling that it isn't for me"), but this is wrong -- no "chemistry" unless it's some really noticeable stench of sweat, can be incompatible with everybody around, and no serious negative "feeling" can be derived from one minute of conversation with a stranger that behaves reasonably courteous. What we see here is plain and simple incompatibility of language, not some unreasonable expectations that human will behave like computer.
The really bad part of it is that no one seriously studied cultural norms of that kind -- people much more embarrassed to dig into "in what situation and how exactly it's appropriate to say 'how are you?' and demonstrate that the answer will be ignored" or "how is it appropriate to reject a guy, romantically interested in you while pretending to care about his feelings, so you wouldn't feel bad about yourself" than in any kind of sexually-freudian crap that ever was written in psychology books or was exchanged between psychoanalyst and patients. This mean, geeks, most of whom represent rather closed subculture, and especially foreign geeks, who represent completely different, sometimes hostile in their base cultures, have no means to learn them unless they will find a way to re-live at least teenage years immersed in this culture (as members, not as outsiders, like even local geeks are at their teenage years).
I understand that the approach that I have used here is clearly and blatantly geeky and definitely not compatible with an attitude, normal in this society. Still it doesn't make me wrong, and history knows a lot of cases when only this kind of approach succeeded in discovering (or expressing, or just in raising awareness) of problems that plagued the societies for decades. I don't know of any solution -- if I knew I would definitely used it for myself -- but I believe, people should realize that this problem exists, and try to solve it, not accuse geeks in "not being sensitive enough", suppress all thoughts of it, pretending that things are supposed to be that way.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
They talk about how nobody's getting any, then they talk about how everyone was into S&M, and then they started talking about how noone is getting any again. WTF?
I thought sex was a pain in the ass 'til I discovered women.
The article is kind of paradoxically geeky - examining the geek culture from an outsider's perspective, yet written with all the old geek jokes - "Don't know how to make love," etc. - in. I thought it was pretty cool.
--
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
What's Sex?
If you read the article, read slashdot, and bothered to post, YOU ARE A GEEK! Now go wash your hair.
Yes the article is highly annoying with it's pseudocode and it's jump from simple dating to prostitution and sex fetishes. I thought the best point was made early in the article, and has been said quite a few times here...
That is, even though a lot of geeks were geeks before getting into computers, many geeks became geeks involuntarily because they got into computers. There's a list of contributing factors:
1. Computers aren't something you talk about in a bar. Unfortunately for tech workers, their jobs are all but unmentionable in a social setting. There is a geek stereotype which contributes to this, computers AREN'T sexy, and truthfully most people who aren't in the know about computers are mostly intimidated by those who do. It's kinda like being in high school and talking to girls about your SAT scores... you can pretty much kill a conversation if you both discover that you scored 400 points above the person you're talking to.
2. Long, grueling hours. To have a successful social life, time needs to be put into it. However, most tech jobs would make you work the 25th hour of the day if such an hour existed. Friends and lovers don't magically appear. Hell, you have to put a good two hours into buying them if you need to. This is sad that our industry knows this and doesn't really do much about it. In five years everyone's gonna have a midlife crisis (at 26) and jump ship anyway, so they're slowly but surely pushing their workers away by doing this.
3. You get into it. Most tech work can pretty much suck you in and never let go. The way that everything is so complicated and complex, once you're on a roll you don't really want to stop. I mean, you can be "in the zone" for a whole six months if you're working at it 14 hours a day (10 hours on the job + 4 thinking about it in the shower or in the car or while making dinner). Hell, most tech work REQUIRES this if you're going to do a decent job at it. Most professions requiring such intelligence (doctors, scientists, mathematicians, whatever) have this problem, because you can't take your time with the work, otherwise you'll never get anywhere relative to where the world stands now.
4. If computers are easy and women are hard to understand, you probably will stick with computers.
5. That ungodly male:female ratio in Silicon Valley doesn't help much either.
In the end, a lot of this happens unconciously and most people are drawn into a life that they utterly despise and feel trapped by. It's the type of thing where you have to get out when you see it happening to yourself, but most tech people are then further drawn in by the threat of upheaval, the money, the addictive power of the net, etc. In the end, you just have to look out for yourself and keep your priorities straight. If you want a social life that badly, you'll do what it takes to get one - losing your job and moving out of the Valley is a small price to pay for love. There's tech jobs all over the place, and some probably pay more and don't overwork you. Or maybe not, but like I said it's a small price to pay. If you don't think that way at all, then you're probably NOT having a problem with your sex life and you're probably thinking that Slashdot's been going a bit too far with the sex articles...
Personally, I had to marry a geek, as non-geeks just didn't understand when i got an "a-ha" and had to get up and fix my code at 2am. Who else is going to understand your long hours at work but another geek? or how even after a long day at work staring at a computer how you play/code computer games to unwind?? I also agree with an earlier post about how a good relationship takes effort. I found that with a geek-geek relationship at least the some of the communication could go via email or mud so even though we were apart we could keep in touch. so I think the big problem is the shortage of geek girls.
Is somebody out there who has tried to run this article trough a C-compiler, or just cpp? Please present the results.
Combine that with the fact that the "mating" in the overall sense is messy, confusing, and often expensive, and you end up with a lot of celibate geeks.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
I do not relate to this article at all. I have a very healthy sex life but lack a stable relationship. I would prefer to have a good relationship but mindless sex helps me mind less. I find geek women are less likely to want to commit and prefer casual sex. I used to be married and I think I have more sex now, than when I was married (In fact I am sure I do).
The stable relationship thing is a bit of a red herring as I have had options but none that suited.
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
Geeks are ugly. Or, more to the point, people who sit around all day doing softare or electrical design, aren't usually the sort who live in their bodies. They tend to live in their heads, and sod all with that bag of flesh down below.
... AKA "Let's Just Be Friends.
Check out those websites:
... and don't hear the abhorred "LJBF" line ever again!!!
-- Nathan SZILARD
To all those people who claim the article had no substance:
STOP RUNNING IT THROUGH THE PREPROCESSOR!
The proper way to view the article is with a web browser. You're not supposed to download it to article.c, and run 'cc -E article.c' to read the article. (and if you do, at least use the proper definitions for your situation, and remember that all comments will be stripped)
Anyhow, I thought it was a cute gimmick. And isn't that enough for Salon, sometimes?
---
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
Or maybe twice. Don't wear it out.
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
Women all have different protocols, maybe that's why we (computer geeks) don't get anywhere with them (non-lateral thinking needed). :-) They change every month, never work the way you expect etc.
So, I propose we use Microsoft proprietary protocols
If we can handle them and transfer the skills learned to interfacing with women then we're flying.
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
I've been programming for about 6 years or so. I've never really been a big ladies man, but I used to get by when I was much younger, but my romantic life seems to diminish the more technical my work becomes.
I took a year off a year ago and even with my utter lack of social skills I think I had about 10 "romances" in that year. In this year off I decided that I was going to change my life when I returned to the work force.
Well, I have now been back working for almost exactly one year and the other day I lifted my head from the keyboeard and realized that it has been about one year since I have gotten anything, not even gone on a date. And you know, in that year this fact hardly even thought about this fact. It seems time flies when you're working, especially when you have a full time job and then do a few personal projects concurrently at home.
It's also frustrating to listen to girls talking about how their signifigant others screw them over, and how they wish they could meet a nice guy that's nice looking with a good job. I'm a fairly nice guy, not too bad to look at, and I make double or triple what most of the (non-tech) people I know make, but for some reason I'm never a contender. I honestly think programming can ruin male's ability for dating. For me, when I meet a woman, the slightest thing can turn me off, the biggest turn off being either lack of intelligence, or even worse a high (ego/actual intelligence) ratio.
My dream is to meet a nice down to earth girl that I can hold an intelligent conversation with, eventually fall in love with, and have a few kids in a few years time from now. But I don't think this is going to happen, so I am now thinking that I have reached the age where I should grow up and join the real world and settle for a wife that will cause me the least amount of grief (that's a pretty depressing statement, maybe thats why I can't get a date! But I am only lately coming to this conclusion). One of my friends has already done this, knowing explicitly what he is doing.
So, am I the only one with this problem or are there others like me?
Borsook is simply a nothing more than a baby boomer debutante hiding under the facade of an intellectual. She is utterly pissed over the fact that geeks bought her precious San Francisco out from under the feet of the San Fran baby-boomer "flake culture", and she intends to spend the rest of her life writing her way out of it.
Deal with it shugah, WE'RE HERE.
Whoever wrote this article has /NO CLUE/ about C. look: if ( strcmp(bplace,"usa") && (networth > 100,000)) return TRUE; if ( (!accent) && (networth > 250,000)) return TRUE; if ( networth > 2,000,000) vreturn TRUE; notice the newbie-use of strcmp and the use of commas in the ints. oh yeah, the article sucked.
From an earlier Salon article, or you can just jump to their sites, Digital Sexsations, and SafeSexPlus.
Disclaimer: I am not a customer, really, not me, nope.
George
I have a close relative who is a single mom. She just turned 30, and has about given up on men.
Part of the problem is that she goes to single bars to find men, which is about the worst way to find someone.
She's mentioned that she wants to find someone like me, but in reality, when I was single and looking, our paths would never have crossed.
How does she go about finding a nice, geeky guy who is not scared away by an instant family?
She did just get on AOL (no flames please, she lives an hour away, doesn't no anyone computer savvy any closer, and she needed an easy to use ISP, as she was computer illiterate a few months ago) and I want to help her with a homepage.
Thanks,
George
while (single=="true") { learn_c++(); get_rich(); enjoy_life(); spend_5_hours_a_day_@_the_beach_coding_and_playing (); make_a_difference_in_the_world(); }
I thought sex is banned in the US.
That's why there are so many rape-crimes over there and young teenagers getting pregnant. Since Americans are very lazy, they get fat and feed their children with fast food, so they will get fat too. And THAT's another reason why you don't have sex. HAHAHA!
This Salon article is about money, lots of money, heaps and piles and stacks and windrows of cash, money like most people (that includes even really talented geeks) will never ever see in their lives. Just like all "tech" articles in Salon. Money to desire, money to envy, money all anyone really needs to know about "Silicon Valley," that wondrous West coast city-sized blackbox which extrudes so miraculously much money! Money, money, money, one and all kneel and worship almighty money.
bleh, WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net
Get your caps-lock button fixed...
I'm a full-time computer professional, but I don't touch a computer after work. I have my toys (Harley, Corvette), and I have lots of other interests. It's just that lots of computer people CHOOSE to be lamers. I don't understand that.
I'm a regular reader of Salon, and this article was pretty disappointing. They, and other magazines, have focused on this before, and it still remains a non-issue.
/* I knew a geek who had sex once...*/
/* I knew a girl once... */
/* Story */
/* Two engineers are walking across campus, when a beautiful woman */
/* rides by on a bicycle. She suddenly vaults off of the bike and */
/* takes off all of her clothes, addressing the first engineer: */
/* "Take anything you want!" she pants lustily, standing naked. */
/* Without batting an eye, the engineer gets on her bike and */
/* pedals away, his buddy jogging with him. "Good choice" says */
/* the buddy, "The clothes probably wouldn't have fit you." */
/* End Story */
/* This may well be the poorest way */
/* of interjecting a thought that I've ever seen. */
/* It works for commenting, but at least the comments */
/* mostly relate quite directly to the code. */
/* In opposition to being a departure from the primary objective */
/* they provide further insight into the confusing aspects. */
/* There is no need to use these, as academia has their own version. */
/* They're called footnotes. */
/* Astonishingly, they're very seldom used to invoke anecdotes, either. */
/* -l */
Why aren't geeks having 'enough' sex? I don't know, but it might have something to do with long working days and lots of stress. Perhaps it has a little bit to do with a lot of greeks being 'fringed' as youngsters and not being into the courtship rituals. Maybe we just don't like people. Perhaps there are a fair proportion of geeks who, having hacked evolution, are not very eager to have their handy-dandy prehensile tails discovered.
This article wasn't even written as a social study, but was fragmented into near unreadability as a result of both the pseudo-code and the lack of flow invoked by the author. The only interesting point was the nod to culture shock and immigration.
This does not keep up with Salon's tradition of doing interesting social commentary. This article was bland and covered issues which people are familiar with from exposure to the canon of geek jokes.
Did Salon really do more than regurgitate the above, backing it up with the knowledge that, gosh gee, a lot of geeks really don't get laid too often?
The best way that this story could have been handled would be to look at the 'new' business and social environment and interaction in Silicon Valley. I know nothing about it, as I work as I work in Ireland -- mix business with pleasure, anyone? I'm curious as to just how people interact, meet each other and what not in an environment that seems insanely pressurised to me, from the congested traffic to the high rent and long hours.
When I'm really engrossed in a project, I know that my social interaction comes with the project team and, occasionally, bystanders, for the most part. Does this occur in Silicon Valley, as well, where friendships and romances arise from convenience? If so, I'm sure the same ramifications exist for work romances, but what's the social view of, say, a millionaire CEO dating his secretary?
For some reason, picturing some programmer millionaire dating his secretary seems much more innocuous to me than his Wall Street equivalent. The perceived innocence of geekdom? Another point they didn't touch on.
That's becoming rather addictive. I think that my next project will be commented in obvious, un-enlightening anecdotes.
Besides, are Libertarians really anti-union? It seems to me that Libertarianism is an assault on the power of government, which in the wrong hands has been used to destroy unions (look at the Air Traffic Controllers). Being pro-government is not the same thing as being pro-union. Libertarianism is strong support for getting the government off of our backs, and the real problem prostitutes are having, according to this article, is government control and interference. In my opinion, this undermines her whole arguement in the article. I would expect the Libertarian party to show strong support for any union who's constitutional rights of free speech or assembly were under assault by agents of the government.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
FRANK HERE..
THANKS FOR YOUR SUPPORT YOU STUPID LITTLE BUTTFUCKING HOMO.
Frank Rizzo wants you to know that he appreciates the fact that you are behind him all of the way.
ROCK ON FUCKFACE... FRANK FUCKING LOVES YOU.
Havent laughed so much in ages.
Hmm, so the reason I don't have a girlfriend is because I don't have a valid magic cookie?
Also, in:
class girl_with_secret {
public:
char upstanding;
long dresses;
friend bend_over_boy;
private:
char *safeword;
double strap_on;
}
shouldn't strap_on be a long?
Well having wadede through the horrible Pseudocode, I came to the conclusion that this article is not about geeks. I've been in and around many created subcultures and haven't noticed that much difference in the ammount of women attracted to the male members of them. The big difference is that most other subcultures, men join them because they want to get laid.
because of the way that people percieve users, I don't think I ve ever run into a teenager that's said 'I got into computers to attract women'
having looked at it theres a degree of 'arent we normal and aren't they loosers.' I'm sure that this is the result of journalists not getting enough women.
Can we generalize anymore, this article is full of SH$T, few facts and some twisted statistics... about the quality of NEWs i've begun to expect from the new and diluted /. It has become like an episode of Geraldo around here..hype and crap with no content....I hope the sale helped yall ut cause it is killing this site as a source of news...it has become rumor mill #23, and not even adependable rumor mill at that :(
what'd ellison do?
what's SOMA?
If she's a single mother at age 30,how old is the kid? The kid could easily be 8-12 years old, and if the kid him/herself has some geeky tendencies, that might activate parental instincts in a geek. An older geek could easily be bored of only being able to divert his parental instincts to computers and collections.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
I, for one, am extremely offended by the articles author's portrail of sex in the valey being either straight, or as a sinful cornocopia of pleasure and decadence.
In order to provide some background for that statement, let me tell you a little about myself. I'm a "stereotypical" computer programmer. its easier for me to write C than english. I work from the wrong 9-5. I'd rather spend the day (and the night) finishing that new idea than go out for a night on the town.
i am also a transsexual.
I dont flaunt my different nature (i'm sorta like the coder girl next door, only i wasnt born that way). I have sex less often than elizabeth dole, yet I live in fear that the more I stand out in the crowd, the more likely someone who knew me "before" will stand up and identify me, so that all the people who dont understand (and dont want to understand) can brand me a freak.
Today, I felt something i've never truely felt before.
I was given praise, and felt the respect of my peers.
It is a tragedy that that feeling was completely marred by the fear of someone "outing me".
Frankly, its un-nerving to wonder if this kernel patch is gonna do it, wether i should post my ideas to the mailing list, or if i step on the wrong persons toes, are they going to destroy me?
the division of the valey into two classes (the straight people who dont get any, and the BDSM) in this article is an affront to the existance of the trans/lesbian/gay/bi community as a whole.
theres more to life than black and white. theres a whole lot of people who suffer in the grey areas.
(posting as anonymous coward for obvious reasons)
www.transsexual.org-- for those with a more open mind.
When the title of the story mentioned that it was on Salon, I felt that I was in for a good read. But naaah .. this time Salon disappointed me. Some rubbbish on geeks and lot of 'codes' to cover up for the lack of material left me unsatisfied just like the girls leave me :0
Maybe the writter felt that any article with few words like 'geeks', 'Silicon Valley' and 'Sex' would command viewership and warrant a Slashdot place. Yup, in a way it has but has laft, I am sure, many many unstaisfied geeks !
BTW if u are looking for 'codes' plse go to some usenet of even Free Software site for better 'codes' !
... "follow me" the wise man said, but he walked behind
..the whole concept of dating is absolutely alien to any other culture than yours?
..." is so full of cultural background and knowledge that an european just cant understand it for some time because there are so many things that go without saying/that you are oblieged to know and to do if you dont want to alienate your "date".
Amercan dating is a whole concept of behaviour, strictly defined and hardly understandable for people from other countries. And its one thing american movies/pop culture didnt inject into other cultures.
I am not talking about dating as a form of flirtation, but of dating as a set of rules. In my country (Germany) theres just no defined approach to the other gender, and its never clear when a date is a "date" and its not common knowledge what to do/think if it is - contrary to the dating rules of what to on the first the second and the third date (as far as it was explained to me)...
"to ask someone out for a date" or "Im dating
Ok I've been living in SV for about 6 months now so I feel pretty comfortable commenting on this. The problem is not so much the "geek" personality or lack thereof as it is the fact that there aren't any girls here. The female/male ratio at my company is less than 1/10. I never had any problems finding a girlfriend or meeting people when I was in college but in SV there seems to be a wall around people. Most people are concerened about the next big IPO and 6 figure salaries are not enough. After living here for 6 months I've put a 5 year cap on my time in SV. After that you'll find me somewhere in the pacific on a Pacific Sea Craft boat. And if finding a girlfriend and having a social life means that much to you, you'll do the same.
Vidi, vici, veni. (I saw, I conquered, I came)
Do you mean (we) geeks should become obnoxious inconsiderate, chauvinist... *whatever* ?
Well, even though I'd agree (in theory) with your analysis, I might also try to understan why on EARTH women (pick your own sex/gender here) do/would prefer to have very understanding and considerate people as friends rather than lover/mate/partner. Or why they would not _want_ them as partners...
me/myself/I (haven't got an identity yet - part of geekdom I guess)
For some people, a computer can be a soul-mate, one that is always obedient, one that never questions you, and one that can be turned on and off at will.
Programming is process-oriented; the computer *will* (barring hardware malfunction) do the right thing if you give it a set of valid, consistent instructions.
A human partner, however, is not consistent and does not have an on-off switch. Saying the same sentence on two different days can generate vastly different responses from a biological spouse.
Bottom line: Relationships with people require flexibility, empathy, and even some mind-reading. Contrast this with the simple, direct, and usually logical relationship we can have with a computer, and it's clear why technogeeks prefer hardware over wetware.
I'm a classical nerd, and I've been doing computers since the mid-1970's: but I also have a wife of 18 years and three lovely daughters, in addition to my four computers. Whenever I find myself wrapped up in technology, I remember that a computer can't give me a hug, or fix me breakfast, or show me wet school paper with an "A", or leave a hamster in my bed...
...well, maybe I could do without the latter....
- Scott
Journalist majors at my school were by far the most shallow, pathetic sorority chicks on the campus. The most glaringly unattractive aspect to these journalist chicks wss almost always their lack of brains, of real intellect. They were always flightly creatures more concerned with how they looked and the latest gossip.
This article can say what it wants to about geek guys, but the fact remains that your typical geek has more brain power than a journalist (how ever over directed it may be). I've found that later in life geeks usually find perspective and family. The poor insepid j-school girls only find 3 or 4 husbands.
Someday perhaps Salon will learn that there is more to life then sex.
One of the benefits of learning this is that while you might not get laid as often, when you do, it is much, much better.
The cake is a pie
Wealth, sexuality, and celebrity are fascinating to people. If you're wealthy and working in a sector of the economy that's getting a lot of media attention, a lot of people are curious as to whether it gets you laid. I don't mean to troll, but the question seems self-evident.
With this cartoon.
We nerds can get chicks........it's all about self confidence. You could be ugly, broke, and bleeding from a massive headwound, as long as you've got balls you can get the girl. Self confidence shines brighter thatn any light saber, just don't confuse it for being brash.
"Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality." -- Dalai Lama
People of geekdom used to have a plan for all this. Join the brotherhood. Have a ritual. Sacrifice the virginity. We were the Shamans and the Druids and the holy ones. The normals came to us for help and advice and spicing up their gene pool. Now we have the power but no mystique to go with it. Techno Pagans probably have the right idea and that is what I lean towards. I can see why there are a lot of anti-religion groups out there but I still think the attraction for non-geeks is the possible danger and mystery that used to shroud the normal geek life. ie. " Heated discussion of the mixing ratio's of various metals for best ductile properites " was a discussion that was kept in a secret society. Our society is out in the open for all to see. Maybe we need a little more mystery to attract the partner of choice. Just my .02 worth
Jumping to correct solutions slowly is better than jumping to incorrect solutions quickly.
Cant some of the geek girlies lurking here tell us what a geek should do to turn them on. :)
As for Borsooks effort to mingle cutsie-cutsie code speak for getting laid with an article on geeks getting laid, well, all I have to say is, Borsock, given the apparent difficulty with which you fail to grasp elementary concepts of good coding, you would do better to just go get yourself laid.
As for the Andover-Madison avenue moderators who posted this dumb-as-hell "geek" piece, instead of some of the really cool and optimistic stuff going on at our national labs, shame shame shame on you.
Given this preference, and its persistence, it is becoming apparent that the Andover philosophy toward slashdot and geeks includes a notion that geeks are subhuman under-sexed animals can only discover their humanity and elevate themselves to real civilian levels by "getting laid."
The next time I have to fix code where someone decided to encase their comments in
* ************/ * ***/ * ************/ * ************/ * ***/ * ************/
/**********************************************
/******COMMENT********COMMENT********COMMENT***
/**********************************************
/**********************************************
/******COMMENT********COMMENT********COMMENT***
/**********************************************
im gonna track him down and break his elbows.
I actually find that many geeks are very understanding and considerate. Therefore many girls end wanting them as friends, not as lovers.
This isn't a geek-specific problem. Plenty of men complain that they are "too nice," and as a result, inappropriate lover material. Though this certainly happens, it strikes me as something of a media cliche. It seems like plenty of romantic comedies have this kind of notion at their heart.
As for the reason, I think it's just that the gender roles that have built up over time are still something people look to. Women frequently want men to be "men." My interpretation of the "too nice" line is "too boring." There's a fine line between nice and submissive. She needs to feel that there are things you'll stand your ground on. It's not that women don't appreciate being treated well, it's just that there are other things which are more important to initial attraction.
You are right. Relationships are hard work. If a relationship is what you want.
I've seen too many use the facade of seeking a "real relationship" just for a physical interlude. Seeing this shocks me everytime I see it but it really isn't any of my business.
My schedule is such that I don't have the time necessary to put into what I feel to be a meaningful relationship. I'm sure I could manage financially but my most important resource is my time and I have too many things going right now.
If I want to be in a relationship, I want it to be as near perfect as I can get it and that means putting in an amount of time I just don't have right now.
I generally get up around 6:30-7:30 for work, hit the gym for an hour after work and finally get home around 6-7pm. I'm one that really needs his sleep so I am heading to bed around 9:30. This gives me 2-3 hours in the evening to eat, unwind from work, manage bills, work on my personal programming agenda(even 2 hours isn't enough for this passion).
That leaves weekends, assuming I have nothing better to do. Well, I my friends come over one day (I GM the game) and I use the weekends to really get into the chunks of my code. I also spend a little free time on Sundays to catch new episodes of Simpsons/X-files.
Now anyone could look at my schedule and make changes by shortening or removing things and then proclaim shenanigans on me and say I have the time to be in a relationship if I want to make time for it. But I don't want to. I like spending my personal time the way I spend it.
I admit, I do have a (kind of) SO but its understood that its only a friendship kind of thing. I manage to spend a couple hours a week hanging out and doing things with her. That and she has is heading to med school within the year so any type of romance wouldn't be practical at point in our lives.
I spend more time communicating with Nz & others over e-mail. Of course, that communication means a lot to me and quite often puts a smile on my face. *Thanks, Nz!*
Yeah, I know I'm pretty sad when it comes to my personal life but that's the way it is sometimes. No regrets.
-Vel
the problem is not that geeks are nice, its that they're not aggressive enough with women. women want men to make the first move. By first move, i mean, take them in your arms and telling them how gorgeous and sexy they are. Confident men seem to kwno what they're doing and therefore seem like good lovers. Men/women should never be inconsiderate. that is never attractive.
Good to see at least some people have some human understanding around here =-)
PHP is the solution of choice for relaying mysql errors to web users.
I'm not one for hitting bars/clubs. Mainly because I don't smoke, don't like to smell like an ashtray and I can't dance.
I can jump up and down a little and wiggle awkwardly but my body is designed more for utility and heavy physical labor, not style and finesse. I also cannot keep a beat...hehehehe
I have nothing against people who smoke. Its a habit just like anything else. I just personally don't like the taste or the smell, unless its cherry scented pipe tobacco. >;)
So if I were to look, I suppose the net would be the first and 'natural' choice. www.userfriendly.org has a link I believe.
-Vel
Yes they accept geeks. perhaps they don't except geeks that are so wound up in computers and trying not to "get hurt". Love it is a two way street guys. you have to risk getting hurt, you have to stick out your neck. if you get hurt, so what? life is too short to dwell and dwell on it. You can spend the rest of your life sitting on your ass wondering what you could of done, or you can go out and do it.
PHP is the solution of choice for relaying mysql errors to web users.
I think as far as chating online goes... that we are all the same sexuality. Why think of everyone as being male or female... why not just treat everyone the same and equal. If a person deserves respect, give it to them, if they don't then don't. I guess I'm just sick of the negative coments I hear about online females daily, and how they are always associated with negative things, no matter how intelligent they are, or what they have/will accomplish in life.
--Alex
This is a signature virus...
Nick
-- "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park" - Jim Moran
Exactly the only people who go out on dates, here, are the ones whop watch too much American TV. Australians go to the movies, they go for a coffee, they go to the pub & get really pissed The go into town on a pub crawl, etc. Formal dating is a definit no no. Maybe these geeks need to loosen up & hit the piss a bit more. Its amazing what a bit of 'leg opener' will do for some girls.
Good points.
:)
:)
Don't mind them.
The great thing about an objective achievement field like ours (technology/math/computing) is that we can concentrate our efforts in development/producing. We can ignore their paltry game of social protocol.
An alternate cultural protocol that :
1. emphasize objective/measurable knowledge, ability and development
2. based on dry exchange of data and learning
3. removes/eliminates insincerity, flirting, double entendre
4. place appearance on lower hierarchy than knowledge, thought and analysis
does not mean boring, or even non-/anti-social
There are enough of us, men and women, though called geeks or nerds by mainstream, that it is a viable community of intellectual freindship.
We are steeped in (and enjoy) something greater and deeper in that of communion of pure thoughts and understanding.
The rest of them can go pick up at the bar, read playboy (or go to the playboy mansion party), watch sitcom, post double-entendres on msgboard, call themselves by sexually provocative (but misleading in availability indication)handles.
We can stick to our flirt-free, double-entendre-free exchange on 11th dimension M-Strings, photo-based rendering, or virtual machines.
P.S. Ignore the insincere (though mainstream attractive) blond who criticizes your (and my) lack of cheminstry, and make friends with those sincere prim Indian female mathematician IIT Ph.D. grads.
P.P.S. Our revenge for our nerdiness is we make more money.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
If you'd ever want a textbook definition of 'form preventing function', and there's not a JonKatz story around, check out this one from Salon.
This reminds me of a suvery, probably fake but who knows, thats says BeOS developers get more sex than other developers. I think it was on Be's web site which made it even funnier. Gotta luv those be folks.
Does wrestling count? Or running & weightlifting?
By no means would I consider myself excellent at any of those but I was competent.
As far as being good-looking, its hard to tell, beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I've heard no complaints. >;)
-Vel
...there's was this new woman hired in customer relations were I work a few months ago. While I was setting up the client for the customer support system on her PC we got into the cliche - "what do you do in your current/previous job - life - and so forth" conversation (slow day for the network:).
She's divorced and used to work for a major league basball team - PR of some sort. Things progressed and I learned that she's a woman who parties far too much (I see the picture now - baseball players, alcohol,...hmmm, god knows what else...). When I shared with her my duties and free times we found one commonality - I design web pages in my free time and she...(responds)
"Who doesn't? - it seems every guy I meet designs web pages these days."
Now I don't frequent bars - and I don't pick up women with lines, but...
OK, let me be short. Here's a woman who's had more sexual partners than I can shake a stick at - and is a local at many a meat-markets and she hears this "line" all the time?
Not to say all web designers are geeks or visa v., but I ain't a politician or baseball player; nor my web designer friends.
What does this mean? I've summarized, already, far beyond judgmental hipocrisy...I'll leave the conclusion up to you. (put a sock on it! (oops!))
Oh, for those of you wondering - she HAS hit on me...
Corrine, This sort of subsociety does indeed work. I met my wife via CB channel on compuserve back in September of 1986. It just happened that we both lived in the same town and I drove over to her apartment the next day and we have been together ever since. We would never have met on the street as she was a Regestered Nurse with Atari Computers and I was a Electrical Engineer with Timex-Sinclair computers. I had just gotten a free hour on compuserve through OMNI magazine and decided to check it out. We met because I had chosen the same CB handle that one of her friends used. She quickly found out that I was not the friend she thought I was. (That last sentence can be taken badly, a pox on english!) After chatting for about an hour we exchanged telephone numbers and I called her and talked with her for the rest of the night. I then went to work (with no sleep at all) and managed to not break anything. After work was done I stopped at her place. We met, made love, and talked a lot more. We lived together for 4 years and then got married. We met as disembodied intelligences in chat and then got to know each other via talking for 8 hours and then got to know each other physically. This is almost the exact opposite of normal dating and flirting that takes place today. I will add that I have always noticed Indian females, prim or otherwise. It would stand to reason that India has some of the most provocative ladies in the world or they would not have a population as large as it is now.
Jumping to correct solutions slowly is better than jumping to incorrect solutions quickly.
This is, for obvious reasons, an on-going topic for discussion with my friends, both male and female. It has been INCREDIBLY rough to meet women in SF (I imagine much worse on the peninsula). They can be very snobby and very rude. And they're really not all that great looking compared to midwestern girls. Every guy I know has been made quite bitter by the women of SF. It's a sorry state of affairs. Can't afford housing, can't get a decent partner, can't find parking. And The Man.com is working us too hard. Did I mention my cube has beige fabric on the walls? Ugh.
;) and tall as well. However, I think that if guys would just find some buddies they like hanging out with and that don't embarrass them and actually GET OUT of the house and leave the DSL idle, they might actually have some sex. Don't be afraid of approaching women. And please don't use some stupid line. Just introduce yourself and try to appear normal. Every woman we've talked to has said the same thing. Guys just don't approach me and if they do, they scare me. Don't be scared and don't be scary, guys.
;)
However, it's not quite as bad as I used to think. When I first moved to SF, 4 years ago, I couldn't even get a date. A year ago, however, something changed...
In college, I would have never gone to a bar that was labeled a "meat market". Now, as a hard working adult, I go to such places and guess what? My friends and I hook up. Am I meeting women I would like to have a relationship with? Certainly! But more often than not I find myself enjoying a lifestyle I never had in college. I have never had to talk a woman into going home with me. Somehow the tables have turned and every woman I've slept with in the last year has been the aggressor. I feel like I'm in Chicago...well, it's not THAT easy, but it has gotten a much better.
When we talk to women about how hard it is to meet people, they complain that guys in SF are either gay (total bs -- SF is more straight than ever), short or not gutsy enough to approach them. Guys complain about how unapproachable and snotty women are. Hm. Common theme buried somewhere in there? People can't do anything about their height and sexual orientation is not an issue in most social settings. However, approachability is the key.
Now, I have to admit, I'm pretty damn good looking
And please use protection...kids will kill your action
Brian
OT
/* evil.
That's what make them
Without context-sensitive coloring, a simple misplaced */ here and there takes out chunks of your code.
Even greater evil is the pragma
#ifdef 0
#endif
No context-sensitive coloring whatsover, hard to see what is in, and what is out.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
That and most IIT math/engineering grads (men and women) can kicka** against medium to lower bell curve from MIT/Caltech
... IIT is just too hardcore
which is the important part
Did not mean to make racial slurs for India against Ameraica
P.S. Am Chinese (not Indian), though know several kicka** Indian mathematicians and coders personally. Am inhabitant of thus alternate social protocol.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
If it is true that the majority of geeks can't get any, that means they cannot procreate. If they cannot procreate, eventually geeks will become extinct. Now I suppose there is an argument there saying that geeks didn't exist until recently and we had to come from someplace, but by not being able to procreate, is the world being robbed of a new class of supergeek? Or will mating rituals change to allow the progression of this gene pool?
"When you gotta shoot, SHOOT! Don't talk." Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez
That with all that money, geeks are discovering the sordid world of prostitution, strip bars, and massage parlours. We all know that if you have enough money, you can get that girlfriend experience you were denied in highschool. I would guess this is a major market--I hope one of these sex operations goes public so I can invest in it, since it's gotta be the fastest growing industry in silicon valley.
only so that he can draw clever but wholly bogus analogies between sex and coding.
He's simply jealous because we know the secret of the late night infinite loop
While not Time_To_Go_Back_To_Work
Make sweet lurve, baby
Wend
However, I found that the article made an interesting point, pointing out the differences between the bay area and San Francisco. It makes sense that the more outgoing people live in San Francisco by choice, while the more introvert people end up outside the city. I know people who commute in both directions, and put up with a one hour commute each way, because the lifestyle in the neighborhood of their working space doesn't suit them (and not because of cost issues). Now, this is a point to expand on - but the article didn't exploit this.
Last, I am German, and I have a couple of German friends around here. One is married to another German girl and living in Mountain View in the suburbs, another one is the ultimate batchelor, living in San Francisco and dating a Palestinian girl, and yet another German is hanging out with strippers and is in the SM scene. Now, the European culture might be closer to the US than the Asian culture (the one discussed in the article), but my point is, that attitute can overcome a lot of cultural problems. Sure, I also know people who are not that happy here, but many of them already returned home. That's fine. As far as this topic is concerned, some statistics would help a lot as well.
Bottom line: I don't know where Paulina Borsook took her opinions from, and she didn't attempt to be credible.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
True, you do lose out on syntax highlighting, but you gain an incredible advantage -- #ifdef 0 / #endif pairs can be nested, while /* */ cannot be nested.
If you are having problems seeing what's in an #ifdef 0 / #endif pair you can append comments to the #ifdef and #endif so it's easier to tell where the beginning and ending of each block is.
Oh, and they're not pragma statements, they're pre-processor statements.
As far as I can tell, many geeks are simply too focused for a lot of the niceties of a relationship; they lack patience, ethics, and a few of the essential personal skills. Add to this a general tendency to be unatheletic and introverted, mix with a generous helping of "nice-guy" passive/aggressive blather, and throw in a few 90-hour work weeks, and it's no surprise that they don't often manage healthy affairs.
Geeks in the Holland see prostitutes all the time, morale is high, productivity is up, the Dutch economy is one of _the_ strongest in all of Europe! Holland has higher per-capita income than the U.S.
I worked in Holland and some of my geek coworkers came back later in the afternoon with big smiles, smelling of cheap perfume. They were happy and worked harder
Legalize prostitution! It's good for the economy!
evil? try this:
int *p, *q, r;
*p = 4;
*q = 2;
r = *p/*q;
1) It's not that funny.
2) It's not new - I've see it in newsgroups, on web pages, and in my e-mail inbox for years.
oh well, there's always www.realdoll.com
Realdoll is too pricey for me, I prefer RealHamster.
Ahh, that soft, silky fur, those bulging cheeks!
George
really wandering OT
1. parathesis are our friends!
2. yup, #ifdef are preprocessor, not pragma
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
As a girlgeek, it frustrates me to see another article where women geeks get such a cursory mention. Comments like "// warning: works best without a girlfriend" and "Many Silicon Valley execs =marry= their good-looking, modern career-gal publicists" serve to emphasis the fact that the bulk of the women in the article are refered to by stereotypes ("Kelli the surfer-girl/marketing manager") or as sex industry workers. I accept the point that men outnumber women in Silicon Valley, but women outnumber men on the planet. Does that mean we should only be writing articles about women's sexuality?
It's demeaning to both the female and male readers of Slashdot that articles like this one generates so little protest.
-rebecca
so anyway
i just moved to silicon valley from a little podunk town
i just kinda want to know where the women around here are?
anyone know?
I don't understand why nobody mentioned this in 200+ comments, but the author put the #if and #endif statements backwards (i.e. in reverse order). My impression is that the author is clueless about actual programming, but tried to show off how little he know and came across really embarrassing myself. There is absolutely nothing more annoying than wannabe-programmers.
This is totally the truth. It's also a great sadness. I don't think a lot of women realize just what they're missing because of this.
I have a friend who made the first move and she's the happiest woman I've ever seen.
I think the point has been made that long hours, high stress, and competitive focus severely limit one's ability to get into the dating pool. I don't think, however, that this is the whole story.
If someone is spending time learning how to code and how to design devices, their time is spent in an entirely foreign focus from non-engineers. Learning the dating 'dance' takes time and effort, and most engineers have already dedicated themselves. The computer engineering field is unique in that computers can truly be reward enough for work done, and can suck 100% of an engineer's focus.
It is very easy for a competitive environment to demand absolute attention, and it is very easy for engineers to dedicate their efforts to this environment.
I work in an engineering position at the world's #1 chipset maker, but early on I made the personal decree that no job was worth never learning, never absorbing, an understanding of how women work and what they want/need.
I can't make a sacrifice that great for anything, but it is not hard to see how some people would do it for engineering.
A very good solution, not 100%, but a good one, is to ensure that engineers always have to work in teams. If your focus is entirely on software or electrical design, you severely lack development of communication skills. In teams where communication is the #1 neccessity, this suffering focus is re-aligned to help engineers keep in touch with a more real, communicative world. Granted, it is not an excellent help, but at least an engineer will learn how to maneuver in social situations.
I know at least one 45-year old Silicon Valleymale still a virigin. :-(
But am not telling
A recent census found Silicon Valley tied with
Alaska with highest imbalance of single males
30 - 50.
And frankly, the closing line made me laugh, since I'm generally the "female SysAdmin" talking about OS preferences with others at what few parties I get to anymore. And yes, it does seem to be a mating ritual in geek life.. of course, I like it that way. :)
Gwendolyn R. Schmidt
I've seen this before, and it was only moderately funny then. Come on, moderators, is this really worth a score of 5?
I've also watched the Asians (Taiwanese?) in nightclubs, who all get up to dance as a group, despite the fact that individually they are all incredibly shy.
Yeah, American culture is very isolating. But then, if somebody tries to change the rules, they get persecuted, much like the "pervs" this mislead author refers to in her article. Get a clue: I don't give a shit what you're doing in you personal life, as long as I don't have to watch it or hear about it! Who cares if somebody is practicing "polyamory", unlike the _strictly monogamous_ president of the USA! People should do what works for them, and be tolerant of others doing something different that works for them... maybe I should spend some more time in Europe.
Ummm - doesnt that require TIME? (to be athletic) Or is there a program that I can run in the background to meet that courtship requirement?
way OT :)
... too many with max 1600 SAT scores who are only slightly above average in intelligence
... but for someone with the highest IQ number, a lot of the column's physics and math explanations have much errata)
/., please resp privately or post publicly on any current form factor calculation research, better models (or none at all), and allow form factors to be calculated in near real times with much better representational models
/., why introduce sex/girl/social life to our geekosphere? I surf to /. to avoid this very world you keep bringing back in!
/.: ... unless a BRILLIANT implementation, and we have to discuss WHY it is brilliant
SAT: too easy to max out
IQ: high numbers from OK intelligent people ( those "Ask Miriam" fans are going to flame me
radiosity hemicube: ah hemicube at times can be dreadful oversimplication of the geometric representation for simplified form factor calculations, leading to our by now well-known artifacting that I see poor map constructors work around. given radioisity itself is a lighting simplication model, with have artifacting upon artifacting (and the quantization artifact of the granule size as well)
form factors: speaking of, in my attempt to completely derail this (yet another?) sex/girl news item on
OT: Notice my valiant attempt to derail and OT as many sex/girl/social life/playboy news item as possible.
1. It is Hemos/CmdTaco's way of OT-ing on
2. Because of their OT-ing our geekdom, I shall OT the OT, bringing up absolutely irrelevant math or computing or technology topics to post to sex/girl/social life articles. (like form factor request towards "dating")
You think "real people" can OT our geek pursuit with this dating/women thing? Ha. I can OT your discussion on dating/women/life with form factors!
To Hemos
1. more hard science
2. more nuclear physics
3. more algorithms ("permanent computing") less frivolous API/OS implementation variation of the month
4. more math
5. more serious tech
6. less sex/date/chick/women/female/etc.
:)
I choose to base my friendships 100% on intelligence and intriguingness. Smart people are enjoyable and engaging.
P.S. Let's forget about dating and talk about form factor research.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
it just occurred to me I am just a variation of the "Natalie Portman Petrified and Naked" Troll.
/. article, NPPN troll would attempt to OT/derail by discussing NPPN.
/. runs another lame women/dating/we have life/we have no life/chick/playboy/hustler/who knows what my trolling would attempt to OT/derail, to get people to forget talking about dating (the topic), and start talking about math or tech ...
... troll ...
... those can then be marked as redundant.
See, every time there is a
Every time Hemos
mmm
A way to express redudancy mathematically would be to post the original theorem, and then post their corollaries
Perhaps with some thought "misbehaving" posting can be elevated to a new form of math geekdom.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
Amem to that! I second that sentiment whole-heartedly. As someone who's been on the receiving end of that line to many times, I have to say this is the only way to handle it. It's way too easy to go along with it, thinking "well friendship is valueable and better than nothing." But deeper down, you're really thinking "if I just show her how much I really care by being a devoted friend, she'll come around." Well it's never going to happen and you'll just end up bitter and frustrated, while trapped in a situation where you think you have to continue to smile and be friendly when you really are having your heart jerked around painfully.
Don't do it! Walk away, as rudely as possible! And don't look back! Accepting freindship offers just reinforces the idea in thier mind that they're offering you something friendly, when in fact what they are proposing is that you sumbit yourself to emotional torture while pretending you like it. Telling them off or rudely ignoring them may seem harsh, but maybe they'll finally get the message that what they are doing to guys is cruel.
May I reccommend: http://photo.net/wtr/getting-dates.html This link is captioned with "because sometimes getting f**ked by Unix isn't all that satisfying"
You silly geeks.
... become more technically competent.
If it is just girl/women/opposite sex/female you want, you don't even need to work at it.
Just code really hard, develop a lot, "sell" out, make tons of cash (purchasing something blatant like luxury car and expensive house can help), and there is a large enough population of women euthemistically called "gold diggers" who would even PRETEND to be interested in what you are interested in, serve you at your beck and call, as long as you marry them.
For male geeks, your intelligence, once translated to currency, will buy you your companionship. At a high enough monetary threshold, you cannot even beat off the opposite sex who wants to share the loot.
Solution to social life
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
Not True - Not True at all.
There is 1 single aspect that is at the deepest center of the female mind - an instinct which has been honed to precise perfection. (either by millions of years of evolutionary development, or by the direct genetic manipulation of superior beings - dependant on you POV).
It is not :
The one thing that drives a woman to select a mate is - Power. Girls reading this will reluctantly agree that this is true, if they are honest about it.
How many women continue to run back into the arms of a total pig of man, who cheats on her, forgets her birthday, insults her mother, etc ? Looking on as men, we cannot understand this, but in a woman's eyes, such men have around them an aura of power that makes the woman always come back 'but I love him' she cries.
What is power and why do women melt at it ? Money is not power, nor are big biceps. Power is about control. You can have a totally rich geek who works out at the Gym 4 nights a week, but whos life is controlled by those around him. He is a yes man, he slinks around with shoulders hunched, and averts his eyes from his 'superiors'. Men cant pick this up, but women see this as weakness - not fit to bear children and provide security for a family. Women outwardly may show more feeling and compassion, but in the deepest heart of a women there is no place for weakness in her partner.
In contrast, you can have someone like al-bundy, useless, flat broke, no feminine side at all - But hey, there is an aura of certainty and security around him. You know that he will always be there for Peggy & the kids, and thats what really counts.
If you want a woman to want you in a more than superficial LJBF way, then dont treat her like your sister, dont treat her like your mother - and dont act like her personal assistant. Act like a bull male lion - approaching a lioness.
Finally, dont fall into the trap of giving her what you want her to give to you ... you are both different, and want different things. Love and Cherish her, and She will return Love and Respect .. subtle but important difference there.
I have never, in my entire life, had a woman(/girl, but I'll say woman throughout) ask me out. I've never had one act as the aggressor to start a relationship or to have sex the first time. EVER.
I have reasonably good success if I ask them out, or if I'm the aggressor, but must I ALWAYS?
I'm pretty sure there's nothing wrong with me. I am at least not unattractive (I don't know how to determine whether I'm attractive - is there some way I could get women to honestly judge me, or to find some objective criteria?). I have good hygeine, I dress well, people seem to view me as intelligent. The fact that I do OK when I'm the aggressor confirms to me that there's nothing very undesirable about me.
I'm not saying that women *rarely* ask me out. I'm saying that it absolutely has never in my life happened. Not while I was in high school, not during my short time at college, not at parties, not at work, not on the street, not in bars, not anywhere I have been. Never.
Is this just how women act? Is my position perfectly normal?
A woman with the integrity to rail on another woman for being racist and trying to justify it with the gender card. That just made my day! As a male geek I appreciate a woman who is highly skilled with computers and programming. It's because we have something in common. As for her strength and independence I don't appreciate it for political correctness' sake, I like it for the same reason that two horses work better than one in pulling a cart. Anyways. Off to my nightly commute!
OTOH isn't amazing how some people like JC writes not only so lucidly, but succinctly as well?
... ah good self-improvement resolution ... more succinct (and lucid) verbal expression.
:)
It is a matter of mental discipline, to not be slopping in English.
Verbal (written?) expression does tend to slip for me a lot more than would like
To which above not a good example of.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
A: Because they can get the nice guys to pay attention to them for free!
You don't have to get bitter about it, though. Keep being nice -- but don't spend time with people who aren't into the sex and intimacy that you want. Be a good guy, but be unavailable to that kind of woman.
Ditto, but I expected this going in. Salon is crap. They are the antithesis of /.
I've actually been wondering about this for awhile - how do geeks and gays go together. I'm what I call unsuccessfully gay, and sort of a geek, but I have problems calling myself a geek. In college they were always in a different crowd. I get into programming and stuff, and I enjoy reading /. but I don't relate on every level. I've always been kinda cool too, in a genuine way.
So are geeks gay? Is that why they 'don't do girls'? I used to think that was it, but I've noticed them slobbering over girl stuff, like jpegs of mammary glands, etc, so I have come to doubt it's that simple.
I think geekdom is a lot about just being oneself. Actually they are very male, more male than males that try to please females with everything they do and become. Geeks aren't 'p*ssy-whipped' (I believe that's the correct simile? Or is it a metaphor? :) You see I am a geek.)
But I think geeks do need to explore sexuality (of all forms), throwing away the rules used by the locals (primitives, natives, non-geeks, etc.) Locals do sex by turning off their consciousness, kind of squeezing their eyes shut and firing the gun, using their dating rituals for crude aim. Image fully conscious sexuality. That is something geeks are capable of. It is a mistake to think that a mature geek is just a Saloner. Ack.
It's all about love. What do geeks love? Are they to become the first to try to marry machines? Imagine the Christian Right... oh brother.
It segfaults at *p = 4;. I don't see what's so special about that.
You're a suburbanite.
1. I can't believe I am going to write a non-math non-tech comment.
... OBVIOUSLY the following is not representative or in association of my company or my game project, just in case there can be confusion :)
... he is considered a nerd who is too brilliant to be bothered with this stuff.
:)
2. I can't believe I am going to write the following that will piss off everyone, and cause people to flame me.
3. I can't believe I will not post this anonymously. There goes karma.
4. ur
But I have to respond to "possible hypocracy from men."
// gender generalization
So many of you smart males claim that women want this, women like this, women are like that.
Have you noticed that if you turn it around, a lot of *men* have these characteristics?
i.e.
1. women are dropping us because they can't see past our unkempty geek appearance, etc.
Can you men see pass a chick in a 3-day old OpenGL shirt because she has been crunching 72 hours coding without sleep on caffeine?
How is that a supposedly "woman" characteristics when a lot of men are equally visually superficial?
2. women want the hard to get, etc.
How many men pass over best gal pal for a woman that most of their friends tell them, heh your best gal pal is much better looking, she is much smarter, she is actually much nicer to you, for that actually less attractive more stupid woman who you have to work at and chase after?
What is the manisfestation that men want the hard to get? Their continual need of approval from mainstream mag that their OS is cool. From rockstar that they dig their geek hobby. From celeb actor star that they are into their favorite computer.
Not good enough Torvald or RMS think something is cool. Need to earn the approval of Regis Philbin or something. Why? Because Torvald and RMS are not hard to get. Mainstream attention is.
And also thusly the remote hard to get hard to approach "mainstream normal chick" who if she loves you mean you are not so nerdy.
Not a female only trait.
3. It is less about the specific points. It is more about if you turn EVERY one of the generalizations around, take out the gender, and you would notice these are HUMAN, not FEMALE, not MALE tendencies.
Next time you think of women as too dependent on outward appearnce, or women only want the hard to get, maybe turn it around and see if you are pot calling kettle black?
It is the above meta-point I want to make, not the specific.
// male geek == female bimbo
Oh, and so many men (not only here) CLAIM to want only smart women.
What they end up with are "stupid" woman who "can pass the bimbo test" who are in many ways worse than true bimbos.
From the talk of posts here, or from my friends claim, you would think that your future SO's are nuclear physicists cum optimization goddess.
What they truly end up with are trophy wives/girlfriends. People who look OK. Who dress OK. Who they can show off the family and friends to indicate they belong to mainstream society.
Of course they can't "look" or "talk" or "act" like a bimbo, because you have demonstrate to others you have a smart girlfriend/wife.
Ironically, this actually eliminates true geek out of your possible diet.
Look at appearance and behavior generalization of the "female bimbo" and that of the "male genius/geek."
If a man is frazzled, doesn't know the time, keep stumbling around and bumping into things, has his head in the clouds, mismatch his socks, don't know much about current events, appears to be singularly focused on some obscure and pointless subject, spell or speak badly, don't know how to do things like fill a tax form, or vote, or fill gas, or some other "life" things
Encounter a woman with this characteristics, and the typical reaction is: "What a bimbo" "What a stupid woman" She could for all you know nuclear physicist cum VLSI developer cum optimization goddess.
But most women and men won't be able to see pass her "apparent bimbo-ness/stupidity" to think she is "not intelligent" enough to warrant friendship/association.
Such irony.
All the women you think are too bimbo/stupid to be in your league may be the super genious girl you "claim" to want.
But the ones you end up with are medium-intelligence women who fulfill artificial societal definitions of intelligence (able to drive, able to buy milk in the super market, able to open a bank account, can spell worth a damn).
So, no, most men who CLAIM they want an extremely intelligent woman are lying.
Especially if getting such a smart woman means the "sacrifice" that they have to have a "bimbo" who appears absentminded.
// I am a bimbo and I am proud of it. Bimbohood allows me to singularly focus on math and tech subjects that engage me.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
Protocol :
Have I missed something, or is this basically it ?
If you have lustful thoughts for someone else - for goodness sakes let her know. Bolster yourself with a drink or 2 if thats what it takes - or better still, try it out on a large sample of complete strangers and get some real stats on the likely feedback.
It's the classic question of "HOW THE $*@(#* AM I SUPPOSED TO PARSE THAT?" Since /* starts a comment regardless of the context it appears in.
:P :-)
Of course, you get around that by doing n = (*p)/(*q);
And it segfaults because I don't think p is actually pointing at anything.
Your lucidity is good considering you probably think in your native language. Thus you are performing major translations while trying to maintain an understandable dialog in english. I am curious. What is radiosity? Are you referring to the distance from a point at a given vector or does the term have something to do with the radiation given off by a luminescent body ? I have no language skills other than english so I stand in awe of anyone who can work with more than one. :^)
Jumping to correct solutions slowly is better than jumping to incorrect solutions quickly.
Umm...what exactly are p and q pointing at? That's right. Undefined. *SEGFAULT!*
:P
This probably isn't the most compact way to write this code, but I don't care about that anyways.
int a, b, c;
int *p, *q;
p =
q =
*p = 4;
*q = 2;
c = *p/*q;
Advice for Geek Guys with a bit of cash :
...'
.. now'. No man will so no to you .. ever.
Get yourself an old porsche - like a mid 70's 911/911S/911SC - they are cheap these days. You can get a 911 for about the same amount of money that you would save by installing a Linux web server rather than an NT web server. Give it a good polish and attach on a nice bursch exhaust.
It is truly amazing - Every time you stop at the lights EVERY guy in the cars around you is looking at the car, eyes following the curves of the bodywork. EVERY female in the cars around you is looking straight at you. Every gay guy around you cant decide whether to look at you or the car. It wont get you straight into bed with the first girl you see, but at least you wont have to introduce yourself - just park next to her and offer to take her out to lunch. In fact, be so arrogant as to not even telling her your name until she asks 'What, you dont know ME ?
I normally walk down the street, and only make eye contact with passing females at a normal (low) rate, but in the 911 you cannot avoid it - you get to choose who flirts with you, rather than take what you can get.
Best to just exchange a cursory glance, and a bored look of 'huh - as if I would be interested in you'. I have even had a Hyundai excel full of teenage girls unbutton their shirts at the traffic lights for my entertainment.
Wear whatever you like, but at least have a good watch. A good watch is something like a Longines, Tag Heuer, Rolex, etc. It is better to wear no watch than to wear something like a Nike watch, or any form of digital watch. Be a geek, but have some class where it counts.
Drive a 911 - get laid whenever you want, by whomever you choose. (Might make a good billboard advert)
----------------------
Guaranteed Guide for Geek Girls :
Get yourself an old porsche - like a mid 70's 911/911S/911SC - they are cheap these days. You can get a 911 for about the same amount of money that you would save by installing a Linux web server rather than an NT web server. Give it a good polish and attach on a nice bursch exhaust.
Feel like sex ? - just wind down the window, pick your man, and point to him. 'You ! get over here
Traffickers' New Cargo:
Naive Slavic Women
By MICHAEL SPECTER
Ramle, Israel--Irina always assumed that her beauty would somehow rescue her from the poverty and hopelessness of village life. A few months ago, after answering a vague ad in a small Ukrainian newspaper, she slipped off a tour boat when it put in at Haifa, hoping to make a bundle dancing naked on the tops of tables.
She was 21, self-assured and glad to be out of Ukraine. Israel offered a new world, and for a week or two everything seemed possible. Then, one morning, she was driven to a brothel, where her boss burned her passport before her eyes.
"I own you," she recalled his saying. "You are my property, and you will work until you earn your way out. Don't try to leave. You have no papers and you don't speak Hebrew. You will be arrested and deported. Then we will get you and bring you back."
It happens every single day. Not just in Israel, which has deported nearly 1,500 Russian and Ukrainian women like Irina in the past three years. But throughout the world, where selling naive and desperate young women into sexual bondage has become one of the fastest-growing criminal enterprises in the robust global economy.
The international bazaar for women is hardly new, of course. Asians have been its basic commodity for decades. But economic hopelessness in the Slavic world has opened what experts call the most lucrative market of all to criminal gangs that have flourished since the fall of Communism: Eastern European women with little to sustain them but their dreams. Pimps, law- enforcement officials and relief groups all agree that Ukrainian and Russian women are now the most valuable in the trade.
Because their immigration is often illegal--and because some percentage of the women choose to work as prostitutes--statistics are difficult to assess. But the United Nations estimates that 4 million people throughout the world are trafficked each year--forced through lies and coercion to work against their will in many types of servitude. The International Organization for Migration has said that as many as 500,000 women are annually trafficked into Western Europe alone.
Many end up like Irina. Stunned and outraged by the sudden order to prostitute herself, she simply refused. She was beaten and raped before she succumbed. Finally she got a break. The brothel was raided, and she was brought here to Neve Tirtsa in Ramle, the only women's prison in Israel. Now, like hundreds of Ukrainian and Russian women with no documents or obvious forgeries, she is waiting to be sent home.
"I don't think the man who ruined my life will even be fined," she said softly, slow tears filling her enormous green eyes. "You can call me a fool for coming here. That's my crime. I am stupid. A stupid girl from a little village. But can people really buy and sell women and get away with it? Sometimes I sit here and ask myself if that really happened to me, if it can really happen at all."
Then, waving her arm toward the muddy prison yard, where Russian is spoken more commonly than Hebrew, she whispered one last thought: "I'm not the only one, you know. They have ruined us all."
Traffic Patterns: Russia and Ukraine Supply the Flesh
Centered in Moscow and the Ukrainian capital, Kiev, the networks trafficking women run east to Japan and Thailand, where thousands of young Slavic women now work against their will as prostitutes, and west to the Adriatic Coast and beyond. The routes are controlled by Russian crime gangs based in Moscow. Even when they do not specifically move the women overseas, they provide security, logistical support, liaison with brothel owners in many countries and, usually, false documents.
Women often start their hellish journey by choice. Seeking a better life, they are lured by local advertisements for good jobs in foreign countries at wages they could never imagine at home.
In Ukraine alone, the number of women who leave is staggering. As many as 400,000 women under 30 have gone in the past decade, according to their country's interior ministry. The Thai Embassy in Moscow, which processes visa applications from Russia and Ukraine, says it receives nearly 1,000 visa applications a day, most of these from women.
Israel is a fairly typical destination. Prostitution is not illegal here, although brothels are, and with 250,000 foreign male workers--most of whom are single or here without their wives--the demand is great. Police officials estimate that there are 25,000 paid sexual transactions every day. Brothels are ubiquitous.
None of the women seem to realize the risks they run until it is too late. Once they cross the border their passports will be confiscated, their freedoms curtailed and what little money they have taken from them at once.
"You want to tell these kids that if something seems too good to be true it usually is," said Lyudmilla Biryuk, a Ukrainian psychologist who has counseled women who have escaped or been released from bondage. "But you can 't imagine what fear and real ignorance can do to a person."
The women are smuggled by car, bus, boat and plane. Handed off in the dead of night, many are told they will pick oranges, work as dancers or as waitresses. Others have decided to try their luck at prostitution, usually for what they assume will be a few lucrative months. They have no idea of the violence that awaits them.
The efficient, economically brutal routine--whether here in Israel, or in one of a dozen other countries--rarely varies. Women are held in apartments, bars and makeshift brothels; there they service, by their own count, as many as 15 clients a day. Often they sleep in shifts, four to a bed. The best that most hope for is to be deported after the police finally catch up with their captors.
Few ever testify. Those who do risk death. Last year in Istanbul, Turkey, according to Ukrainian police investigators, two women were thrown to their deaths from a balcony while six of their Russian friends watched.
In Serbia, also last year, said a young Ukrainian woman who escaped in October, a woman who refused to work as a prostitute was beheaded in public.
In Milan, Italy, a week before Christmas, the police broke up a ring that was holding auctions in which women abducted from the countries of the former Soviet Union were put on blocks, partially naked, and sold at an average price of just under $1,000.
"This is happening wherever you look now," said Michael Platzer, the Vienna, Austria-based head of operations for the U.N.'s Center for International Crime Prevention. "The Mafia is not stupid. There is less law enforcement since the Soviet Union fell apart and more freedom of movement. The earnings are incredible. The overhead is low--you don't have to buy cars and guns. Drugs you sell once and they are gone. Women can earn money for a long time."
"Also," he added, "the laws help the gangsters. Prostitution is semilegal in many places and that makes enforcement tricky. In most cases punishment is very light."
In some countries, Israel among them, there is not even a specific law against the sale of human beings.
Platzer said that although certainly "tens of thousands" of women were sold into prostitution each year, he was uncomfortable with statistics since nobody involved has any reason to tell the truth.
"But if you want to use numbers," he said, "think about this. Two hundred million people are victims of contemporary forms of slavery. Most aren't prostitutes, of course, but children in sweatshops, domestic workers, migrants. During four centuries, 12 million people were believed to be involved in the slave trade between Africa and the New World. The 200 million--and many of course are women who are trafficked for sex--is a current figure. It's happening now. Today."
Distress Calls: Far-Flung Victims Provide Few Clues
The distress call came from Donetsk, the bleak center of coal production in southern Ukraine. A woman was screaming on the telephone line. Her sister and a friend were prisoners in a bar somewhere near Rome. They spoke no Italian and had no way out, but had managed, briefly, to get hold of a man's cell phone.
"Do you have any idea where they are, exactly?" asked Olga Shved, who runs La Strada in Kiev, Ukraine's new center dedicated to fighting the trafficking of women in Eastern Europe and the countries of the former Soviet Union.
The woman's answer was no. Ms. Shved began searching for files and telephone numbers of the local consul, the police, anybody who could help.
"Do they know how far from Rome they are?" she asked, her voice tightening with each word. "What about the name of the street or the bar? Anything will help," she said, jotting notes furiously as she spoke. "We can get the police on this, but we need something. If they call back, tell them to give us a clue. The street number. The number of a bus that runs past. One thing is all we need."
Ms. Shved hung up and called officials at Ukraine's Interior Ministry and the Foreign Ministry. Her conversations were short, direct and obviously a routine part of her job.
That is because Ukraine--and to a lesser degree its Slavic neighbors Russia and Belarus--has replaced Thailand and the Philippines as the epicenter of the global business in trafficking women. The Ukrainian problem has been worsened by a ravaged economy, an atrophied system of law enforcement, and criminal gangs that grow more brazen each year. Young European women are in demand, and Ukraine, a country of 51 million people, has a seemingly endless supply. It is not that hard to see why.
Neither Russia nor Ukraine reports accurate unemployment statistics. But even partial numbers present a clear story of chaos and economic dislocation. Federal employment statistics in Ukraine indicate that more than two-thirds of the unemployed are women. The government also keeps another statistic: employed but not working. Those are people who technically have jobs, and can use company amenities like day-care centers and hospitals. But they do not work or get paid. Three-quarters are women. And of those who have lost their jobs since the Soviet Union dissolved in 1991, more than 80 percent are women.
The average salary in Ukraine today is slightly less than $30 a month, but it is half that in the small towns that criminal gangs favor for recruiting women to work abroad. On average, there are 30 applicants for every job in most Ukrainian cities. There is no real hope; but there is freedom.
In that climate, looking for work in foreign countries has increasingly become a matter of survival.
"It's no secret that the highest prices now go for the white women," said Marco Buffo, executive director of On the Road, an antitrafficking organization in northern Italy. "They are the novelty item now. It used to be Nigerians and Asians at the top of the market. Now it's the Ukrainians."
Economics is not the only factor causing women to flee their homelands. There is also social reality. For the first time, young women in Ukraine and Russia have the right, the ability and the willpower to walk away from their parents and their hometowns. Village life is disintegrating throughout much of the former Soviet world, and youngsters are grabbing any chance they can find to save themselves.
"After the wall fell down, the Ukrainian people tried to live in the new circumstances," said Ms. Shved. "It was very hard, and it gets no easier. Girls now have few opportunities yet great freedom. They see 'Pretty Woman,' or a thousand movies and ads with the same point, that somebody who is rich can save them. The glory and ease of wealth is almost the basic point of the Western advertising that we see. Here the towns are dying. What jobs there are go to men. So they leave."
First, however, they answer ads from employment agencies promising to find them work in a foreign country. Here again, Russian crime gangs play a central role. They often recruit people through seemingly innocuous "mail order bride" meetings. Even when they do not, few such organizations can operate without paying off one gang or another. Sometimes want ads are almost honest, suggesting that the women can earn up to $1,000 a month as "escorts" abroad. Often they are vague or blatantly untrue.
Recruiting Methods: Ads Make Offers Too Good To Be True
One typical ad used by traffickers in Kiev last year read: "Girls: Must be single and very pretty. Young and tall. We invite you for work as models, secretaries, dancers, choreographers, gymnasts. Housing is supplied. Foreign posts available. Must apply in person."
One young woman who did, and made it back alive, described a harrowing journey. "I met with these guys, and they asked if I would work at a strip bar," she said. "Why not, I thought. They said we would have to leave at once. We went by car to the Slovak Republic where they grabbed my passport. I think they got me new papers there, but threatened me if I spoke out. We made it to Vienna, then to Turkey. I was kept in a bar and I was told I owed $5,000 for my travel. I worked for three days, and on the fourth I was arrested."
Lately, the ads have started to disappear from the main cities--where the realities of such offers are known now. These days the appeals are made in the provinces, where their success is undiminished.
Most of the thousands of Ukrainian women who go abroad each year are illegal immigrants who do not work in the sex business. Often they apply for a legal visa--to dance, or work in a bar--and then stay after it expires.
Many go to Turkey and Germany, where Russian crime groups are particularly powerful. Israeli leaders say that Russian women--they tend to refer to all women from the former Soviet Union as Russian--disappear off tour boats every day. Officials in Italy estimate that at least 30,000 Ukrainian women are employed illegally there now.
Most are domestic workers, but a growing number are prostitutes, some of them having been promised work as domestics only to find out their jobs were a lie. Part of the problem became clear in a two-year study recently concluded by the Washington-based nonprofit group Global Survival Network: Police officials in many countries just don't care.
The network, after undercover interviews with gangsters, pimps and corrupt officials, found that local police forces--often those best able to prevent trafficking--are least interested in helping.
Gillian Caldwell of Global Survival Network has been deeply involved in the study. "In Tokyo," she said, "a sympathetic senator arranged a meeting for us with senior police officials to discuss the growing prevalence of trafficking from Russia into Japan. The police insisted it wasn't a problem, and they didn't even want the concrete information we could have provided. That didn't surprise local relief agencies, who cited instances in which police had actually sold trafficked women back to the criminal networks which had enslaved them."
Official Reactions: Best-Placed To Help, but Least Inclined
Complacency among police agencies is not uncommon.
"Women's groups want to blow this all out of proportion," said Gennadi Lepenko, chief of Kiev's branch of Interpol, the international police agency. "Perhaps this was a problem a few years ago. But it's under control now."
That is not the view at Ukraine's parliament--which is trying to pass new laws to protect young women--or at the Interior Ministry.
"We have a very serious problem here, and we are simply not equipped to solve it by ourselves," said Mikhail Lebed, chief of criminal investigations for the Ukrainian Interior Ministry. "It is a human tragedy, but also, frankly, a national crisis. Gangsters make more from these women in a week than we have in our law-enforcement budget for the whole year. To be honest, unless we get some help we are not going to stop it."
But solutions will not be simple. Criminal gangs risk little by ferrying women out of the country; indeed, many of the women go voluntarily. Laws are vague, cooperation between countries rare and punishment of traffickers almost nonexistent. Without work or much hope of a future at home, an eager teen-ager will find it hard to believe that the promise of a job in Italy, Turkey or Israel is almost certain to be worthless.
"I answered an ad to be a waitress," said Tamara, 19, a Ukrainian prostitute in a massage parlor near Tel Aviv's old Central Bus Station, a Russian- language ghetto for the cheapest brothels. "I'm not sure I would go back now if I could. What would I do there, stand on a bread line or work in a factory for no wages?"
Tamara, like all other such women interviewed for this article, asked that her full name not be published. She has classic Slavic features, with long blond hair and deep green eyes. She turned several potential customers away so she could speak at length with a reporter. She was willing to talk as long as her boss was out. She said she was not watched closely while she remained within the garish confines of the "health club."
"I didn't plan to do this," she said, looking sourly at the rich red walls and leopard prints around her. "They took my passport, so I don't have much choice. But they do give me money. And believe me, it's better than anything I could ever get at home."
Yitzhak Tyler, the chief of undercover activities for the Haifa police, is a big, open-faced man who doesn't mince words.
"We got a hell of a problem on our hands," he said. The port city of 200,000 has become the easiest entryway for women brought to Israel to work as prostitutes--though by no means the only one. Sometimes they walk off tour boats, but increasingly they come with forged documents that enable them to live and work in Israel. These have often been bought or stolen from elderly Jewish women in Russia or Ukraine.
"This is a sophisticated, global operation," Tyler said. "It's evil, and it' s successful because the money is so good. These men pay $500 to $1,000 for a Ukrainian or Russian woman. Do you understand what I am telling you? They will buy these women and make a fortune out of them."
To illustrate his point, Tyler grabbed a black calculator and started calling out the sums as he punched them in.
"Take a small place," he said, "with 10 girls. Each has 15 to 20 clients a day. Multiply that by say 200 shekels. So say 30,000 shekels a day comes in to each place. Each girl works 25 days a month. Minimum."
Tyler was busy doing math as he spoke. "So we are talking about 750,000 shekels a month, or about $215,000. A man often owns five of these places. That's a million dollars. No taxes, no real overhead. It's a factory with slave labor. And we've got them all over Israel."
The Tropicana, in Tel Aviv's bustling business district, is one of the busiest bordellos. The women who work there, like nearly all prostitutes in Israel today, are Russian. Their boss, however, is not.
"Israelis love Russian girls," said Jacob Golan, who owns this and two other clubs, and spoke willingly about the business he finds so "successful." "They are blonde and good-looking and different from us," he said, chuckling as he drew his hand over his black hair. "And they are desperate. They are ready to do anything for money."
Always filled with half-naked Russian women, the club is open around the clock. There is a schedule on the wall next to the receptionist--with each woman's hours listed in a different color, and the days and shifts rotating, as at a restaurant or a bar. Next to the schedule a sign reads, "We don't accept checks." Next to that there is a poster for a missing Israeli woman.
There are 12 cubicles at the Tropicana where 20 women work in shifts, eight during the daytime, 12 at night. Business is always booming, and not just with foreign workers. Israeli soldiers, with rifles on their shoulders, frequent the place, as do business executives and tourists.
Golan was asked if most women who work at the club do so voluntarily. He laughed heartily.
"I don't get into that," he said, staring vacantly across his club at four Russian women sitting on a low couch. "They are brought here and told to work. I don't force them. I pay them. What goes on between them and the men they are with, how could that be my problem?"
Deterrent Strategies: A System that Fails Those Who Testify
Every once in a while, usually with great fanfare and plenty of advance notice, Golan gets raided. He pays a fine, and the women without good false documents are taken to prison.
If they are deported, the charges against them are dropped. But if a woman wants to file a complaint, then she must remain in prison until a trial is held. "In the past four years," Betty Lahan, prison director of Neve Tirtsa here, said, "I don't know of a single case where a woman chose to testify."
Such punitive treatment of victims is the rule rather than the exception. In Italy, where the police say killings of women forced into prostitution average one a month, parliament tried to create a sort of witness protection program. But it only allowed women to stay in the country for one year and did nothing to hide their identities.
"The deck is just so completely stacked against the women in all this," said Daniella Pompei, an immigration specialist with the community of Sant' Egidio, the Catholic relief agency in Rome. "The police is the last place these women want to go." She said that only 20 women had ever used the protection program.
It is not clear who will stop the mob. On a trip to Ukraine late last year, Hillary Rodham Clinton spoke out about the new slave trade that has developed so rapidly there. The United States and the European Union have plans to work together to educate young women about the dangers of working abroad. Other initiatives, like stays of deportation for prisoners, victims' shelters and counseling, have also been discussed.
"I don't care about any of that," said Lena, a young Latvian, one of the inmates waiting to be deported here. "I just want to know one thing. How will I ever walk down the street like a human being again?"
Seastead this.
While Ms. Borsook has the concepts and the lingo down, she doesn't have the motivating forces down by a mile. The reason people in the valley don't date is the same reason they don't have other hobbies. The prevalent focus for mental, phsyical, and spiritual energy is twofold - work, and money. Men brag in locker room tones about how much they've earned, spent, or worked lately - not about their sexual conequests. Getting some means you're wasting your time and energy, spilling your seed, if you will, a sort of Silicon Valley Onanism that is simply not looked upon highly. After all, why bother when your portfolio is easier to manage, and your conqests in the office at 3am are so much more proveable? It's just another symptom of a place with very strange priorities, one that grows sicker all the time. The fetish people are the healthy ones - at least they're getting out occasionally.
Guess it takes all kinds. Anyone remember the old Carib. song about marrying an ugle woman? Well, it's better than marrying a model with whom you must compete. (After 30 years with a less than beautiful wife, I'm still supprised). Age may also make a difference (kinda hard to remember everything that happened 30 years ago).
A little incident that happened to me the other day illustrated why things seem to be so tough for geek guys in the Dealing with Women department.
I am one of those apparently oh-so-rare female computer geeks, and I try to attend the quarterly MS TechNet briefings. There were about 200 guys there, and less than a dozen ladies, including me. At the break, this very (and I do mean VERY) casually dressed and groomed fellow comes up to me, looks me (obviously) up and down, and demands (no, he did not politely ask) to know who I was and what I did. (I am a sys admin for an office of the State Government) His whole attitude was one of 'how dare a woman attend one of these things'. He was some sort of freelancing systems management person looking for computer people to work for him. After that encounter, I sure wouldn't!
Guys need to stop treating us like we're some sort of alien lifeform or like we've got cooties or something. Or worse, like we're Laura Croft. We're not. We like computers and tech just as much as you do, and would rather be your peers or your friends instead of 'the Other'.
And to the guy with the Porche 911 'bait'- yeah- that might get you 'chicks', but they'll be the sort who thinks that appearance and things are more important than personality and intelligence. Do you really want someone that shallow around?
Here's the secret to sexual success, guys: Act human. It's that easy. And it's OK to talk about things other than tech. A little diversity goes a long ways in conversation. And mind your manners- discerning ladies really appreciate that.
'Artificial intelligence' is anything a computer couldn't do 5 years ago.
For a title for your trolling?
:)
/-space these posts would represent? You are already admitting some level of congruency with the NPPN Troll.
"Mathematics Postulated and Proven Troll?"
Anyone who would fit this could place "MPP Troll" in their sig so we know what we're in for when we select to read further into that thread.
I wonder what type of set in the
I would expand that to the "Hot grits down my pants" posts as well.
My logic, when it comes to mathematics, is quite fuzzy right now but I can help but wonder what type of mapping we could do for MPP -> NPPN, if possible.
Yeah, I'm evil.
>;)
-Vel
Yeah, its amazing what money can buy. Apparently, a person can even get a "rental" chick with the right amount of money (and the proper area knowledge).
:)
You kind of opened yourself up for this but would you present another solution if I placed a few constraints on the system?
Here are are the constraints(not necessarily in order of priority):
1) She should be intellectual. Not necessarily three standard deviations (or more) above the mean IQ but personally, the higher the better.
2) She should be financially responsible and independent. This means she knows how to design and follow through on a budget plan.
3) She understands the need to code and tolerates some of the unfortunate habits that go with it such as occasional {bad eating habits, coding marathon to implement a feature, etc}. If she were one to be willing and capable of sharing in this experience could be considered a bonus.
4) She is at least partially aware of her health and body such that she will make educated decisions about her diet and exercise routines. She may give/take advice from me about my regimen but not infringe upon my program.
5) The relationship should be viewed as an equal partnership as opposed to "boss-worker" or "master-slave".
6) Being best friends would be a must. This also means its fun just to hang out and do whatever once in awhile.
7) E-mail is an acceptable form of communication when outside of vocal range.
8) She should be able to tolerate my family in all its quirkiness and understand that my family is an extended part of myself.
9) She should tolerate role-playing enough to understand that to me its like "poker night with the guys" is to others. Participating would be a bonus.
10) She should find me physically attractive. This is probably one of the toughest constraints right here...or easiest. This would (I hope) vary from person to person. The reverse of this should also be true.
11) She share some of my ethical views about life. Things like its not good to impose personal morals on anothers and sex is not a casual and indiscriminate activity. (One or fewer partners in this activity with *no* children.)
12) She considers herself capable of being nice, funny, shy, honest, etc. (Not bossy, self-righteous, controlling...*shudder*)
There, I think that pretty much covers the constraints. I wish you luck if you're brave enough to try and solve that one...
My friends joke that this is why complex analysis comes so naturally for me. I spend so much time delving into the imaginary.
But I do understand that relationships can be complex. I just tend to be the real part. >;)
-Vel
Yeah, I guess I'll agree...being you used the term "most" and not "all."
:)
The double standards also suck.
I hope I can add that its also an often difficult thing to deal with the fact that a potential partner is also one that is better at doing the things that you do best. Well, ego wise at least.
Perhaps for a person who has grown up with the "brawn over brains" philosophy, it isn't as hard to be with a woman who's "smarter than you are" because of the sour grapes parable reasoning. My brother was one of these and he was very effective at getting the smart/geeky grrls in his classes to do his homework for him. Apparently the attantion he gave them was worth it. *shrug*
But a person who grew up being ostracized by his/her peers because they had the reputation of being one of the brainiacs doesn't necessarily have to deal with this threat to their area of expertise when they keep chasing people that are complementary (ie: the stereotypical cheerleaders). Generally speaking, of course.
I've known intelligent cheerleaders and I've known people that break all these rules.
But until a person gets out of the "small pond" and they've never dealt with this situation, its a new and often deflating thing.
Not to sound like Forrest but one of my mother's phrases was that no matter how good I am at something, there will always, always be someone else better at it. Of course, my dad conceded to my mom being the "smart one" although I found out after I've reached adulthood that there was indeed a "method to my father's madness" and he is a very intelligent individual, just not in the same fields as my mother.
Personally, I don't like to bring GRE scores on a date. A person can discriminate on intelligence just as easily as they can on appearance...and just as easy as physical appearances are deceiving, so is the appearance of intelligence.
Ok....time to go post on one of the more recent articles.
// devil's advocate/flame retardant
:), but for me (and quite a few women) to require the >= male criteria in income / wealth / overall knowledge / overall intelligence, it will be cold day in hell before I (and others) find this match made in heaven, and mostly I won't like this guy in romantic ways. :)
:) )
:( ).
You are correct that *most* women still feel this way: i.e., want a *powerful* man, unfortuantely.
Depite years of technological advance, there is unfortunate still little socio-economic, intellect, etc. equality in gender.
For survivalist reason, it is socially acceptable for men to accept = female mate.
It is not as socially acceptable for female to accept or even = male mate.
Why such discrepancy? Because unfortunately for most women, the (apparently) only available route to the upper 0.001% of wealth/achievement in a field is still through association with successful/powerful male.
Also because of men will not accept = female mate, his choice narrows.
This is a social ill, not a human or gender quality.
Understand the , (don't argue ==, I am accepting equivalence conditionals) but not by the above definitions.
// at least one female accept and want = male (women don't argue ==, I am accepting equivalence conditionals).
There are fewer in the fem gender segment (like myself), who pretty much have to give up on the >= male criteria.
Apologies to possible hubris
(heh, I am not saying I am smarter and richer than all of you, just that most likely you who are smarter than me, I won't like you *that* way.
With *equality* (or *greaterness*) in women, come the removal of this "societal ill" of criteria of >= male.
Some women like me, who already get all the power she wants and needs without association with any male, cares alot more about the tenderness / care / sweetness / goofiness you so despise.
// this tactic can "turn off" > woman
While the above tactic can get you a woman, it is less likely to get you a > woman.
In fact, it will most likely turn off a > woman.
Such people can sniff posturing from a mile a way. Your girlfriend reversed engineered and software emulated the Jaguar in one-hour, ha I would play the tough man and be non-chalant.
Sure you would be non-chalant, if another guy (or somebody else's girl friend) coded the same thing in one hour.
(From personal experience, I had ex-SO's who pulled this technical non-chalant crap to *attract* me, i.e., have much higher technical standards of awe for female SO than for male colleagues.)
Doesn't work guys. Can see through it.
Sure, don't condescend her if she spent over 1 month to write this data format reader ( I did that, so ashamed
But be properly impressed with her technical achievement, the same as a man you are not having a relationship with.
// this tactic would filter in only = woman
This tactic can work, but it works as a filter.
The only women you attract with this is = woman.
Not "stupid" or "unsuccessful" women.
But women who still need a powerful / successful / great man in her life and relationship to be fulfilled / feel important / significant.
There are many of those.
If those are who and what you want.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
I think there should be a new poll:
How is your sex life:
-I'm happily married
-I date a lot
-I'm married
-I have a girlfriend
-I was married
-I had a girlfriend once
-I hear them banging next door
-I see some women occasionally
-I have some female relatives
-I know there is an X and Y option in my genes, but I don't know the datatype
:-)
nosig today
The most I'd to is treat her as my best friend and as an equal, regardless if people thought otherwise.
Of course, this is also the least I would do as well. (The love and cherish part is kind of a given.)
>;)
-Vel
I guess who ever wrote this never talked to me. I see more ass than a toilet seat in grand central
station. I get too much sex. I meet chicks and all they want to do is go to bed with me.
I got money but I don't flash it. The main car I drive is 13 years old, and I don't have a rolex either.
IT's all so amazingly simple 'down under'!
natalie portman