Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Trying To Look Open Source With CE
MajorBlunder writes "There is an article at ZDnet about Microsoft opening up the source code for Windows CE. I really don't care to guess what demons of Redmond are thinking, but this certainly puts some power behind the whole Open Source concept. "
Looking deeper into the story, it appears that MS is more concerned with appearances (that is, looking like it's embracing Open Source, at least at some level) rather than actions. I'm guessing only "selected" developers get the source -- at which point, so what?
Not to mention dumbasses like you wouldn't know what to do with it if you had it.
Perhaps you should read up on why Linux was chosen as the embedded OS for the TiVo. As well as all the new ereet web-pads and pda's that will be forthcoming in the next 6 months.
My company sells systems that do a fixed task. The task has not increased in complexity. The software, is all 16-bit Win 3.x code also doinf lots of low-level I/O interrupt stuff, and just doesn't work under Win9x/NT/2K. BUT IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE MOVED TO A NEW PLATFORM. We've been having more and more trouble getting more Win3.x licenses xuz MS doesn't want to. Huh? Why should I be forced to redesign and upgrade when I don't need to?
Any stuff for M$ platforms only should be dragged into trashcan.
Don't you remember the memos on IE, and the talk of "cutting off Netscape's air supply"? This is the same thing, only targeting RTOS vendors.
Microsoft is being so foolish again. There looking for a thing just to catch up with the others. I mabie think that Microsoft can't do it because they try to be so hot in his one shitty company and when ever they seek somthing more powerful. Long lives CE.
You got it! Why is this triviality covered by slashdot? Is Microsoft software "technology"?. Most of the readers (except Microsoft moles) and posters to this www site are probably not Microsoft fans. This is old news. CE is has been repeatedly described in the media as being BAD. Would someone out there, please name ONE (can you say "REDMOND"?) good piece of software that Microsoft has written. MIcroslop software still follows the precedent of (can you say "history"? ) Bill's infamous multiplatform spreadsheet Multiplan - buggy. Will someone please demonstrate the contruction of an automated table of contents in the most infamous of word (sorry for the pun) processors- "Word". I once again plead with the management of slashdot to quit posting trivial news about a company whose software is designed to be used by (a) poor souls who don't have a clue about what good software is, or (b) management types who claim retrospectively (so much for rational decision making) to know where they wanted to go yesterday.
"The bottom line is that Linux is more portable. "
WinCE has been ported to four or five systems. It's portable -- what more do you want?
Your right, NTAS was STREAMS-based for one.
They also multithreaded the IP stack around NT4 SP4. Thus the mindcraft benchmarks.
I would say that the office apps are good, Outlook is ver useful. And, IE is better on windows (and mac i think) than the current v. of netscpe, although mozilla may change that. I think Windows is pretty crapy, but MS Apps are usually pretty good.
Rats. Missed it. Oh, well. There's always next time.
I just would like to see something this software giant does benefit someone else also. Just because it benefits MS doesn't mean it doesn't benefit someone else. Microsoft released a standard API that benefitted a lot of programmers. They educated a lot of people to use their API--that also benefitted the programmers. Oh ya, and it also benefitted MS. It benefitted PC users -- oh ya, and thereby benefitted MS. I don't go to work everyday to benefit my employer. I go to benefit me and my family. That doesn't mean that my employer doesn't benefit. I think there is a word for this.... how 'bout "economics"?
STAR (as in hot young actress) WARS
...and a gift. gift?! what gift?!
chapter vi
a story of tender love
natalie portman has returned to her home town of albany new york to rescue her friend, mae ling mak, from the clutches of the vile gangster, naked & petrified guy.
little does natalie know that the evil open source empire, led by esr, has begun construction on a new sendmail daemon even more powerful than the first dreaded sendmail.
once completed, this new daemon will spell certain doom for the natalie portman fan-club, ending their means of sending fan-mail...
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
open source man arrives at the development house. workers are scuttling about attempting to look busy.
project leader: open source man, this is an unexpected pleasure. we are honored by your presence.
open source man: you may dispense with the pleasantries, project leader. i am here to put you back on schedule.
project leader: i assure you, open source man, my men are working as fast as they can.
open source man: perhaps i can find new ways to motivate them!
project leader: the new sendmail daemon will be completed on schedule!
open source man: esr does not share your optimistic appraisal of the situation.
project leader: but he asks the impossible! i need more volunteers!
open source man: then perhaps you can tell him when he arrives here.
project leader: esr is coming here?!
open source man: that is correct, project leader, and he is most displeased with your apparant lack of progress.
project leader: we shall double our efforts!
open source man: i hope so, project leader, for your sake. esr is not as forgiving as i am.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
c3-rms and linus-d2 are walking down the sidewalk in albany new york, headed for the naked & petrified guy's palace.
c3-rms: of course i'm worried. and you should be, too. lando johansen and poor alan cox never returned from this awful place.
linus-d2: chirp, chirp.
c3-rms: don't be so sure. if i told you half the things i've heard about this naked & petrified guy, you'd probably short-circuit.
the two droids approach the gate of the massive palace.
c3-rms: linus, are you sure this is the right place? i better knock, i suppose.
c3-rms knocks on the iron door.
c3-rms: there doesn't seem to be anyone there. let's go back and tell mistress portman.
a small hatch opens in the middle of the door and an aibo head pops out.
aibo head: tnaw uoy od kcuf eht tahw?
c3-rms: goodness gracious me! yug deifirtep & dekan eht ot egassem a evig ot emoc evah ew. smr-3c ma i dna 2d-sunil si siht.
the aibo examines the droids, laughs, then returns to its hole.
c3-rms: i don't think they're going to let us in, linus. we'd better go!
the door opens and linus rushes inside. hesitantly, c3-rms follows.
c3-rms: oh, linus! linus, wait for me!
the giant door slams shut behind the droids. two naked and petrified statue gaurds close in on the droids.
c3-rms: just you deliver mistress portman's message and get us out of here.
out of the darkness, a naked & petrified lacey chabert enters the room.
lacey chabert statue: olleh
c3-rms: oh, my! olleh. we bring a message to your master, the naked & petrified guy.
linus-d2: chirp, beep, chirp.
c3-rms:
lacey shakes her head. lacey holds out her hand toward linus, who chirps in protest as he backs away.
c3-rms: he says that our instructions are to give it only to naked & petrified himself. i'm terribly sorry. i'm afraid he's ever so stubborn about these sorts of things.
lacey motions for the droids to follow her. lacey leads the droids into the naked & petrified guy's throne room. they stand nervously before him.
c3-rms: the message, linus, the message.
a projection of natalie portman beams out from the center of linus' head... the projection speaks...
natalie portman: greetings exalted one. allow me to introduce myself. i am natalie portman, hot young actress and friend to mae ling mak. i know that you are powerful, mighty naked & petrified, and that your lust for mae ling must be equally powerful. i seek an audience with your greatness to bargain for mae ling's life. with your wisdom, i'm sure that we can work out an arrangement which will be mutually beneficial and enable us to avoid any unpleasant confrontation. as a token of my goodwill, i present to you a gift: these two droids. both are hardworking and will serve you well.
naked & petrified guy: there will be no bargain! i will not give up my favorite wall decoration. i like mae ling where she is!
the naked and petrified guy points to mae ling mak, naked & petrified and hanging on the wall.
c3-rms: linus, look! it's mae ling! and she's still frozen in carbonite!
the droids are taken away for processing.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
a party is underway in the throne room. larry wall and tom christiansen are topless and chained. the naked & petrified guy holds the chains as the two dance. the naked & petrified guy grows disgusted with the two constantly making sexual advances toward each other. he presses a button on his throne and the two dancers fall into a pit with a giant aibo. the aibo is equipped with a scientifically proven magic petrification ray. the aibo petrifies the two dancers. laughter fills the room full of naked & petrified teen girls.
suddenly, a blast from the hallway interrupts the merriment. a masked figure walks in with a large hairy handcuffed beast.
c3-rms: oh no! alan cox!
naked & petrified guy: at last, we have the mighty alan cox!
the naked & petrified guy motions for c3-rms to come translate. c3-rms complies.
c3-rms: the illustrious naked & petrified guy bids you welcome and will gladly pay you the reward of twenty-five thousand.
bounty hunter: i want fifty thousand. no less.
the naked and petrified guy becomes enraged. he knocks c3-rms back. c3-rms regains his footing.
c3-rms: uh, the mighty naked & petrified guy asks why he must pay fifty thousand.
the bounty hunter holds up a small brown ball.
c3-rms: because he's holding a ball of gnu dung!
naked & petrified guy: this bounty hunter is my kind of scum. fearless and inventive....
c3-rms: the naked & petrified guy offers you the sum of thirty-five and he'll throw in a cute teen girl naked and petrified.
the bounty hunter nods.
c3-rms: he agrees!
the bounty hunter joins in the resumed celebration as alan cox is taken away by a pair of naked and petrified cute teen girls.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
it is dark and quiet in the throne room. all of the cute naked & petrified teen girls are passed out from the drunken festivities. the bounty hunter steps quietly toward the petrified mae ling mak. the bounty hunter flips a switch on one side of mae ling's encasement. the encasement falls to the floor. the bounty hunter pulls a depetrification lever. a bright light shines through the carbonite. mae ling mak's naked body falls out of the shell and onto the floor. the bounty hunter lifts her up. mae ling regains consciousness.
bounty hunter: just relax for a moment. you're free of the carbonite.
mae ling mak: i can't see!
bounty hunter: your eyesight will return in time.
mae ling mak: where am i?
bounty hunter: the naked & petrified guy's palace.
mae ling mak: who are you?
the bounty hunter removes his mask... it's matalie, natalie portman's identical twin sister!
matalie: someone who loves you!
mae ling mak: matalie!
matalie: i gotta get you outta here.
as matalie helps mae ling mak to her feet, a deep cackle booms from a curtain next to them.
mae ling mak: i know that laugh.
the curtain opens to reveal the naked & petrified guy and his cronies, including c3-rms, whose mouth is being covered by lacey chabert, naked and petrified.
mae ling mak: hey, naked and petrified guy, i was just on my way to bring you some cute teen girls, but i got a little sidetracked. it's not my fault!
naked & petrified guy: it's too late for that, mae ling. you may have been a good provider of cute teen girls, but now you're highway pavement!
mae ling mak: look!
naked & petrified guy: take her away!
a couple of naked & petrified cute teen girls grab mae ling mak and drag her off.
mae ling mak: naked & petrified, i'll pay you triple... you're throwing away 24 cute teen girls here. don't be a fool!
mae ling mak is removed from the scene. the naked & petrified guy turns his attentions to matalie.
naked & petrified guy: bring her to me!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
all is dark and quiet in the entranceway to the naked & petrified guy's palace. the main gate raises to let in a bright white light from outside. the silhouetted figure of natalie portman enters the palace. two naked & petrified cute teen girls try to bar natalie's progress. natalie raises her hand and the guards fall back. natalie proceeds on to the naked & petrified guy's throne room. natalie portman enters the throne room and the naked & petrified guy awakes.
natalie portman lifts her skirt as her twin sister watches.
natalie portman: you will bring mae ling mak and alan cox to me.
naked & petrified guy: your sexual powers will not work on me, girl!
natalie portman: nevertheless, i am taking mae ling and her friends. you can either profit by this or be destroyed. it's your choice. but i warn you not to underestimate the powers of my hot young body.
the naked and petrified guy glares at natalie portman smugly. he presses the button to the trapdoor.
naked & petrified guy: there will be no bargain, young actress. i shall enjoy admiring you nude and imobile.
natalie portman falls into the pit with the giant aibo, equipped with the scientifically proven magic petrification ray. the aibo's ray warms up and it begins to fire, but not before natalie pulls a mirror from her purse and holds it up to the aibo. the ray reflects from the mirror and petrifies the aibo.
a naked and petrified cmdr taco and hemos come into the chamber. they are devastated at the loss of the aibo.
the naked & petrified guy is also infuriated.
naked & petrified guy: bring me mak and cox! they will all suffer for this outrage!
several naked & petrified cute teen girls scramble about. mae ling mak, alan cox and natalie portman are brought before the naked & petrified guy. c3-rms translates.
c3-rms: oh dear. his high exaltedness, the great naked & petrified guy, has decreed that you are to be terminated immediately.
mae ling mak: good, i hate long waits.
c3-rms: you will therefore be taken to the dune sea and cast into a pit of hot grits.
mae ling mak: doesn't sound so bad.
c3-rms: there you will find a new definition of pain and suffering as your are slowly digested over a thousand years.
mae ling mak: on second thought, let's pass on that.
natalie portman: you should have bargained, naked & petrified guy. that's the last mistake you'll ever make!
the naked & petrified guy cackles evilly as the prisoners are hearded off.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
at the pit of hot grits, natalie portman, alan cox and mae ling mak are moved into position to be pushed into the pit from a small sail barge. matalie and linus-d2 watch from the naked & petrified guy's larger sail barge.
a naked & petrified cute teen girl moves natalie portman into position. natalie portman nods to lando johansen and linus-d2. they indicate acknowledgement of the signal. natalie is pushed over the plank, but she grabs onto it as she falls and bounces back. at the same moment, linus-d2 ejects a can of mace from a compartment in his head. natalie uses the mace to send various naked & petrified teen girls carreening into the pit of hot grits. the grits bubble in delight.
matalie takes advantage of the chaos. she grabs the chain connecting her to the naked & petrified guy and uses it to strangle him.
lando johansen frees mae ling mak and alan cox, who join natalie portman in the fight. natalie makes her way to the main sail barge, while matalie is freed by linus-d2.
linus-d2 and c3-rms dive into the sand. natalie portman grabs her twin sister and jumps back onto the smaller sail barge with lando johansen, mae ling mak and alan cox after setting off the large petrification ray on the main sail barge.
as the smaller sail barge collects the droids and flies away, the entire large sail barge is petrified and collapses under its own weight.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
open source man and the sendmail project leader kneal at the entranceway of the development shop. esr enters the room.
esr: rise my friend.
open source man and the project leader rise and walk alongside esr.
open source man: the sendmail daemon will be completed on schedule.
esr: you have done well, open source man. and now i sense you wish to continue your quest to open source young natalie portman.
open source man: yes, my master.
esr: patience, my friend. in time she will seek you out. and when she does, you must bring her before me. she has developed nicely. only together can we turn her to the open source side.
open source man: as you wish.
esr: everything is proceeding as i have foreseen.
esr laughes as they walk down the hallway.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
linus-d2 waits outside in the rain. natalie portman is inside a small hut with betty davis.
betty davis: hmmm. that face you make. look i so old to young eyes?
natalie portman: no... of course not.
betty davis: i do, yes, i do! sick have i become. old and weak. when nine hundred years old you reach, look as good you will not! soon i will rest. yes, forever sleep. earned it i have.
natalie portman: mistress davis, you can't die.
betty davis: strong am i with femininity. but not that strong! twilight is upon me and soon night must fall. that is the way of things... the way of the hot young actress.
natalie portman: but i need your help. i've come back to complete the training.
betty davis: no more training do you require. already know you that which you need.
natalie portman: then i am a hot young actress?
betty davis: ohhhh. not yet. one thing remains: open source man. you must confront open source man. only then a hot young actress will you be. and confront him you will.
natalie portman: mistress davis.... was open source man the president of my fan club?
betty davis: mmmm... rest i need. yes... rest.
natalie portman: betty, i must know.
betty davis: the president of your fan club he was. told you did he?
natalie portman: yes.
betty davis: unexpected this is. and unfortunate.
natalie portman: unfortunate that i know the truth?
betty davis: no. unfortunate that you rushed to face him... that incomplete was your hotness. not ready for a sexual relationship were you. remember, a hot young actress's strength flows from her hot young buttocks. but beware. anger, fear, agression. the open source side are they. once you start down the open source path, forever will it dominate your destiny. consume you it will. natalie... natalie... do not... do not underestimate the powers of esr, or suffer open source man's fate you will. natalie, when gone am i, the last of the hot young actresses will you be. natalie, hotness is strong in your family. pass on what you have learned. natalie... there is... another.... port... port... man.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Spammer.
It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.
Few distributors are likely to stock large volumes of years-old software, but they could if they wanted to... OEM Products Quick Ref.
By your (reasoning?), wouldn't copyrights to books be null and void the moment they're out of print?Twice now I've submitted stories, have them declined, then a day or two later see it posted.
/. used to determine which stories to accept.
Wish I understood the mysterious method
By open, do they mean non-restrictive licensing? Free redistribution of modified copies?
Don't flame me if this is answered in the article, I can't seem to connect to zdnet.
Release the source for the old stuff. I mean, it's not like you can even buy this stuff anymore.
BTW, it's ironic to see you whine about other people's constructive (literally!) criticism of your contributions to Slashdot.
I bet before the year end, Microsoft will be trying to tell people what open source is all about. They will create their own 'Open Source' licenses, and will completely ignore the trademark. Before we get into the 'oh no, they can't do that', well, legality has never stopped them before!
And why not open up the story selection process? Allow any story submission to live. Then let the moderators go to work.
Instead of filtering story submissions to a handful, you could moderate that handful of submissions to a 3 right off the bat--or make the default submission a -3, then moderate the handful up to 1 off the bat.
The slimy insurrectionism I've been writing about is not primarily the fault of self-satisfied infernal tax cheats, nor of the iconoclastic blusterers who abandon the idea of universal principles and focus illegitimately on the particular. It is the fault of Microsoft. But it goes further than that. I am highly critical of those who tolerate or apologize for people who work with Microsoft. Maybe some day, Microsoft will finally stop trying to rob, steal, cheat, and murder. Don't hold your breath, though. If it weren't for incompetent unpatriotic-types, Microsoft would have no friends. Microsoft invents problems in order to provide itself with an excuse for making a fuss.
Microsoft should stop caterwauling about what it doesn't understand. Communism and authoritarianism are not synonymous. In fact, they are so frequently in opposition and so universally irreconcilable that Microsoft's cronies amount to nothing more than immoral wackos riding on the back of a social fungus attacking the body politic.
I have given this issue a great deal of thought, and I now have a strong conviction that under the guise of stimulating debate and illuminating diverse perspectives, Microsoft's disquisitions actually take a condescending cheap shot at a person that most psychotic pettifoggers will never be in a position to condescend to. It is no news that Microsoft's conclusions are some of the most bookish, vapid, and prurient I've ever encountered. If you think about it, it is a dangerous folly to ignore the threat to democracy posed by the worst sorts of appalling perverted extremists I've ever seen.
Microsoft really needs to lighten up. If I seem a bit money-grubbing, it's only because I'm trying to communicate with Microsoft on its own level. Discrediting ideas by labeling them as obdurate is an old tradition among Microsoft's lackeys, and if you don't believe me, then you should clarify and correct some of the inaccuracies present in Microsoft's jeremiads. As we all know, I wish shiftless hell-raisers had the gumption not to obfuscate the issue so that one can't see what ought to be totally obvious to all. The nicest thing that can be said about Microsoft's henchmen is that they are antihumanist obtuse spongers out to quote me out of context. This is all well and good, but you don't have to say anything specifically about Microsoft for it to start attacking you. All you have to do is dare to imply that I should give parents the means to protect their children. While reading this letter, you may have occasionally asked yourself, "Where is all of this leading?" and, "What is the point exactly?" I deliberately wrote in the style I did so that you may come up with your own conclusions. Therefore, I leave you with only the following: Microsoft gives new meaning to the word "uncouth".
What happened to the open source is often good for the company that does it line? I liked that line of argument better.
Face it, if you're all about open source, then a Microsoft open source product is a victory! Of course we should check their actual offerings for gotchas and booby traps, but if open source is good, it's good even when Microsoft does it.
That's absolutely false, you sodding loser.
WinCE is dying.
OpenSource is distracting attention from MS.
OpenSource is being connected with business success.
So release WinCE under the GPL. Then let it die. You achieve two things:
You attract attention back to MS.
You show that backing OpenSource may not be a great business strategy, creating FUD.
So why just discontinue WinCE when you can get such mileage from letting it die (or even killing it) in someone else's backyard.
Well... having a monopoly is not illegal, abusing it is. What Microsoft might try to attempt is to show the DOJ that eventho they do have a monopoly, that they do want others to profit from it instead of abuse it..
Iexlorer for Unix?
An indirect endorsement of open source methods is tantamount to a futher indirect endorsement of Linux, since Linux is produced with open source methods; as well as an equal endorsement of every other open source product, including XFree86 and Apache.
Microsoft never makes a stupid decision. If they do it, it's something that can't be used against them. Be sure that the access won't be substantive, or if it is, that it doesn't overlap with other Win32 code, and that this may possibly be a prelude to abandoning WinCE or reclosing it if it ever becomes popular.
Yes I love CE and I want it to have my babies. CE rulez.
I bet it will only compile with MS Visual Studio Professional... This is a real problem for open-source development on MS Windows based machines; it is incredibly difficult to compile non-trivial programs using different compilers.
Oh, and did i forget to say, CE is 1337 !!1!!11!! I can't wait until the whole world runs CE. Then I will be in heaven.
Sometimes the open source community gets on my nerves ( or at least the advocates). Comments that the code will be an absolute mess are groundless and most likely false. I'm disgusted with the business practices of Microsoft, but my disgust does not extend to the programmers who work to create their products. I'm sure that there is room for improvement in the CE project, but I doubt it is any worse than most open source projects in their early stages (in fact, it is probably much better than the initial Open Source releases).
The CE release is probably a pr smoke screen, but at least it is a start. If Microsoft actually saw benefit in Open Source, and opened other projects everyone would benefit. Millions of people use Windows, and probably won't switch to linux any time soon. Helping these people work more effeciently by fixing a bug in a Windows project is every bit as worthwhile as fixing a bug in linux programs. Open source for Windows is a good thing - but everyone here seems to view it as a threat.
virii is not the plural of virus. the correct word is viruses. I should know. I attend Harvard. All you high school kids should knock off the pseudo-intellect crap.
{Sarcasm maode on.}
;)hehehe....
But it's not a joke
{Sarcasm mode off}
Do not flame me at:linux_ys@yahoo.com
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Movie stars should not be president...even if they played a president.
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"Hah hah hah hah hah hah clunk..."
That one hit home!
The more you spam, the more you look like a dick.
Saxo Grammaticus
And pray tell, have you seen an X application that has an interface that you don't have to watch draw, drag, or click? The GUI on Linux is still years behind.
Reading the article on news.com, this has nothing to do with opening the source code and everything to do with them giving away stuff for free.
This is a time-honored Microsoft strategy. My first copy of Windows NT Server came to me for free.
Although this does seem to be the Linux concept... If you're really really desperate announce you are going to support Linux. aka Corel, SGI, etc. etc.
So Microsoft is desperate with WinCE. So what?
(in text mode can't login :( ) Your comments about releasing a somewhat stable 0.0.0.0.X release ring quite true. That is the whole idea behind OSS is rapidizing improvement. The *cough* guy just came across too strong, he has a point, some code should be a little more commented up, but heck sometimes the stuff is so rudimentry (in it's inception at least) that it does not matter. This applies a great deal to system level utils that are normall extremely compact and have a small code base, but when compared to larger yet still initial version software, it still is not that important. Strangely enough, I have found that the best comments (and sometimes funny) come into OSS code after a couple of rounds of revisions by different people. You get to see (and hopefully learn) the trials along the way.
We don't like you, Microsoft. And we want you to take your fscking ball, go away, and get out of our game. For too long, you have been the sadistic bully on the playground, the domineering shithead at the party, and the biggest back-stabbing member of the software community. If it served you, you did it, never mind the consequences to the consumer, or to your partners. You made the fatal error of assuming you were better than everyone else, and now you are going to pay for it. You have been black-balled, and it will not be long now before you are ejected from our society. We will not miss you, Asshole.
What, no one got this? It's funny! Just like when Micros~1 claimed to invent Symbolic Links. Moderate this up!
I can see the press conference now- "We call it 'opened source'"
"I call it a *quote*LASER*quote*" -- Dr. Evil
what offended you? penis or pickle brine?
I believe AOEII was published by microsoft, not created by microsoft.
"Cynical? You bet. Trust Microsoft? Never."
Thats not cynical! Every buisness makes moves in order to stay in business."
"...which I have come to rely is that M$..."
So, which is it??? do you never trust or do you rely?
Well, as others have pointed out, it's because they need a ton of outside opinions to get the code fixed properly, since they clearly can't get it right by themselves.
But, I've said it before and I'll say it again,
having Microsoft open source any Windows code,
be it CE or anything else, is like having Roseanne Barr do a strip-tease act...
They said, "must be using Win 3.x, NT, Win9x or better", so I installed Linux...
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Once more, ladies and gentlemen, quality Slashdot reporting......FOR ME TO POOP ON!
Goddammit, you fucking Slashfuckers are worth millions of dollars...can't you take the time to verify your damn stories?
The compilers have always been included. You guys are so full of crap. "Last time I checked..." - obviously you never checked. What else do you lie to these poor people about?
heh, donn't you know that they use the source code for 16 bit windows and dos as the main structure in the design of 32 bit windows, and ppl wonder why windows has so many problems, the 16 bit kernal that uses add-ons (i.e. twunk) to become 32 bit, an inherently slow and problematic solution
Who would be interested in Windows CE code anyway? God knows the source code to DOS and Windows 95, NT, and 2000 are all ugly. Trust me on this one. Don't touch those closed inbred cancerous obese hacks. They are haunted. If they touch you, your sould will become impure and spawn demons no unix could touch. Its evil! You have been warned!
Microsoft Writes the server and hosts it on zone.com, Turbine writes the client.
You people are idiots!! Opening the source for CE only opens up more as to what the hell is going on underneath all Microsoft products. Wake up and embrace the truth behind what this could bring for all of us!!!
This is crap! /. WTF?
I posted this same damn story @ 5:00AM to this stupid
Last time I checked, in order to do anything with CE, you needed MSVC++ and then the compilers for the target CE machine.
Not to mention the fact that you're locked into running an MS desktop OS.
Not to mention the fact that with Palm, you can use GCC on your OS of choice.
The thing is that M$ said they would only release it to certain developers.This would more than likely be MCSE members.It seems kinda unlikely that some of the WINE developers would sign up to be MCSE's,(don't you have to pay cash to sign up?I can't remember),have to be bombarded by MS spam(if you forget to uncheck the little box that tells them that would would like spam),just for the Windows CE source.Anyway,CE is designed to work with differant hardware than 98,2000,or NT.Most software can not be exchanged between CE and other Windows platforms(documents can however.),so using the CE API's kinda defeats the purpose of creating windows emulators:you wouldn't be able to run any typical windows software on it.
MS should of OSSed Win2k.More than likely somebody would of found some of those 64,000 bugs!
Matt Adair linux_ys@yahoo.com
Ah, but that would actually be HELPFUL to the DOSEmu and WINE projects, wouldn't it? Never mind the fact that M$ would probably refuse to sell you a new license for these operating systems, and has consistently refused to support anything but it's most recently released software... found a bug? Pay $$$ to upgrade!
After living in the Linux kernel for the last couple of years, no one else has anything to be embarrassed about... Linux has become one big unstructed wall of C code.
Who says this is old...Aren't they still using this source in 98, NT,...
Yeah, right. You don't know anyone who works at MS and you don't have a clue as to what the source code looks like. What is it with you people anyway?
It's obviously an attempt at humor. (i.e., saying that WinCE is dead.) While not the best joke in the world it shouldn't get moderated down for offtopic.
The WinCE api is a subset of Win32, with some additional tweaks just for CE.
If that isn't like the pot calling the kettle black. Geesh...have you even looked at the source in some of those precious cvs trees buddy?
Lose = opposite of win
Loose = not tight
Has anyone seen a comments thread that has this word used in the correct context 100% ?
> the stack was the same code that was written for win3.1
WTF! Are you actualy claiming the the 16 bit win31 stack is what is running under NT4? The IP stack has been changed drasticaly since NTAS.
yes, W2k has a complete re-write of the IP stack
To bad WinCE isn't loosing market share. Latest numbers show it neck and neck with PalmOS. (not installed base wise, just sales wise)
I checkout the occasional CVS sometimes, I look over the source code. Have you?
I'm living in the 80's
Also, I think a little less bias in the selection of the stories themselves could be useful. Who on earth made the decision that the release of FreeBSD 4.0 wasn't even worthy of a mention as a "quickie," yet the book review on assosciate programs was worthy of a whole article?
Maybe you should check your settings (either that or pull your head out of your ass), because there's a big fat story on BSD 4.0 -- it was on the main page yesterday.
And finally, if Slashdot's editorial policy bothers you so much, there's a place you can go that may help.
took me a while to read all this, pretending to be working and all ;) but that was pretty cool! I cant believe ubertroll didnt write this 1st! totalyl silly, and a great take-off/rip on return of the jedi (for what THAT movie was worth)
:)
if anyone has the time, i recommend reading this
"There is no spoon"-Neo, The Matrix
"SPOOOOOOOOON!"-The Tick, The Tick
...I'd rather they stuck with open protocols and such first. That, to me, would be more useful.
and decided to make a contribution to the Dead Media Project.
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It really looks as though Microsoft is trying to pull themselves towards some sort of moral highground these days. For what its worth, who cares? The source for CE probably won't build, and who wants it anyway, other than for laughs?
It is this kind of forward-looking action that has put Microsoft on the map and given it the status that it enjoys as a company today. Sure, at first, it might sound a bit counter-intuitive. Not only do you give away your software, you give away the source code to your software, as well! This allows people to look at it, poke it, prod it, and in general learn how it works. This also allows people to improve your software themselves and submit the changes back to you! I must say, Microsoft has certainly developed an innovative paradigm here. By opening up their source, they stand to stimulate an entire stagnant industry!
I predict that this whole "open source" thing will be one of the most important of Microsoft's contributions to the computing and software industries. I also imagine that other companies and individuals will start using this concept to write C compilers, text editors, operating systems, etc. Let's hope that they give due credit to the company that originated this idea.
Would someone out there, please name ONE good piece of software that Microsoft has written.
Here's my list:
format, works rather well with the argument C:\
fdisk - particularly when destroying old MS-DOG partitions.
Linux fdisk: liberating PC's the world over!
Not that I would ever defend M$, but the slashdot mentality cracks me up. Microsoft actually releases something as open source, and everyone here slams them. I mean come on, what the fuck did you want them to do, open source NT? Like that would ever happen. So what we have here is M$ doing a quite reasonable thing by open sourcing CE, and even the slashdot editors can't keep from taking a jab at them with the title of the article. What a bunch of hypocrites. It's exactly this sort of mentality that will cause open source to be rejected by the typical corporate entity.
I'm sorry - but he _is_ right. Some OSS code is truly horrible. Things such as consistent code formatting and commenting have simply passed many OSS programmers by... Having seen large chunks of the Win CE code (just look in your MSDN subscription!) I can say that it is well formatted and commented. You will find that code produced by professional programmers in a coporate environment WILL be good - any half decent software comapny DEMANDS rigid compliance to a house style.
are the three worst parts of /. comments. I don't read the /. comments to see a bunch of spoiled brats whine about how *this* story was selected instead of *that* story, or how much /. sucks for being /. (a subjective view of what happens in the Linux/Open Source/Geek) instead of trying to immitate the pseudo-objectivity of traditional media.
/. does not match your interests perfectly. Believe it or not, you are not the only person in the world, nor a particularily important one.
I read the comments because the store interest me, and one can sometimes find corrections or further information or insigts about the story in the comments. I suspect this is what the same the vast majority of readers are after, and I moderate and meta-moderate with that in mind. The original comment was not only stupid and wrong, it was also absolutely off-topic.
If a story doesn't interest you, skip it. Don't misuse it for whining about how
Yes! It's a mass-murder attempt by Microsoft. This code is actually a "Killing Joke"!
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Yes, change the definitions.
Intel has had a stranglehold on the CPU market for years now by simply defining "best CPU" as a function of higher MHz. Those that don't know better, buy the faster clock, the higher number.
So Microsoft has finally realized that the way to slay this "Open Source" dragon is to utilize it's best assets: Stupid consumers and FUD. If Open Source means one thing to the minority geek community, Microsoft can easily define it to mean something completely different to the mass market.
\
Again, here, Microsoft is ripping off Apple, who was the FIRST major software company to pervert the definition of "open source" to it's own purposes.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
It would be more useful if you could modify the code. Then someone could fix the CE posix routines to actually be posix compliant. (For example, actually have them return error codes on opening of a socket.)
If you can't use it to get the bugs fixed, it is not of much use other than to point and laugh.
"Trademarks are the heraldry of the new feudalism."
What's so big about having it GPLed? If they released it under a less restrictive license, it would be better for everyone except them. (The difference between e.g. the X license and the GPL is that you can do more stuff with X licensed code than with GPLed code. The purpose of the GPL is to defend the author's wish that the code not be used in closed projects.) I GPL stuff I write, (which isn't much to speak of yet :( ). It would be cool if they released it under the GPL, since that would really make other companies who still like Micros~1 think about going GPL to be able to use the code. Releasing X licensed code is just as big a plunge for Micros~1, though, it's the real deal, Open Source the way its meant to be. (among other things, both the GPL and X style licenses meet the DFSG-free (Debian Free Software Guidelines) requirements.)
#define X(x,y) x##y
#define X(x,y) x##y
Peter Cordes ; e-mail: X(peter@cordes ,
...is that an operating system ought to cost about a dollar.
(Actually, I think the correct price ought to be between $1.60 and $7, but I suspect they are engaging in dumping in order to obtain marketshare in the case of WinCE.)
Why then can they charge $85 to $200 for Win98SE? Even more for NT? Still more for W2K? And still charge you more for a server edition? And tag on more charges for IIS, etc, etc?
The answer is simple: WinCE is in a competitive market. The difference in price is the overcharge of the monopolist. I wonder if DoJ is paying attention to this.
Eternal vigilance only works if you look in every direction.
This is yet another example of Microsoft's strategy of announcing products that either will never happen or are very far from being a real product. This strategy allows them to "steal the thunder" from other competitors. How many times has the rumor circulated that MS will relase somthing as OpenSource? Bugaboo. How many times has MS overmarketed a product years from release, even going as far as saying it beats tangible products already on the markey? Bugaboo. Can we say X-Box anyone? Woh about NT with good 3D support? How obout embedded NT? Bugabuggabooooo.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
Sorry, I did not follow it to make sure it was a valid link. My fault. Moderate it down, so that no one follows my idea, and flames me for it. I had not realized it was a joke until I had already posted. Forgive and moderate down, that is all I ask of you.
Buy the ticket, take the ride.
Have fun Rob!
Buy the ticket, take the ride.
C'est la vie.
Here is the link so you can just click instead of cut and paste... LinuxCE
No, thanks, please. It had to be done.
Buy the ticket, take the ride.
Not only is it different in places, but also many calls and many options to calls are missing. This is why porting anything from Win9x to WinCE is many times more painful than porting to NT. If the WINE project put too much stock in following whatever WinCE source they could get hold of, they'd just end up with a swiss cheese API, which is what WinCE itself is.
As for the second question, someone always wants to emulate anything. What if we could shoehorn WINE into a Linux-based PDA? Then I'm sure it wouldn't be long before all kinds of WinCE apps were running on it....
-----Chaz
--
Actually, Walnut Creek CDROM didn't ship 4.0 to people who subscribe to the FreeBSD CDROMS. That tells me that it's not a worthy release. I think 4.1 will be the one to watch out for.
--
.-.--
This is obviously an attempt by MS to confuse the slashdot community! By carefully combining the words "Microsoft" and "Open Source" into one press release, MS was hoping that the Linux community would run pay attention to their Windows 2000 Ads.
Linux user sees Windows 2000 Ad. Thinks to himself, "2000 is a lot larger than 2.4 - and 2000 is the new standard in reliability" and "MS = Open Source = Cool" Still dazed, the user buys a copy of Windows 2000, returns home and installs it, removing linux.
Do not read this press release! Do not become a victim in the OS war!
Know what I like about atheists? I've yet to meet one that believes God is on their side.
Linux is too large for a number of types of embedded devices, and Linux is _certainly not_ realtime, nor are the realtime Linux extensions ready to be used in ABS, rockets, satellites, etc.
However, this still leaves a very large and rapidly growing segment of the embedded market. Designs where the underlying OS is not important, and simply making the thing go, networking, tasking, filesystem too, without spending too much money on it.
You have to remember, there are two main costs in embedded. Engineering costs, shipment costs. Linux may raise the latter slightly, but it can cut down on the former GREATLY. It also runs on commodity system hardware, which means the hardware costs often drop as well. Again, we're talking about roles that don't directly affect people's lives.
Lastly, reliability is always always always going to depend upon the developers of the system. No operating environment can fix that problem. You can provide tools, etc. to identify problems. You can provide tools to help solve problems. You can provide testing environments, etc. But in the end it is always up the developers of the embedded product to make it stable. This is as true on Linux as it is on CE as it is on VxWorks.
Now, if the operating environment itself is not stable, this screws the developers as well. Fortunately, most embedded OSes and Linux are both stable enough when the hardware and software run on them are restricted (as it is with all embedded systems).
-josh
Let's not be too hasty here. Have you taken a browse through many open-source projects lately?
Seeing the code is but the first step. Did you actually *compile* the code and then execute it? Microsoft has given lip service to opening source code before, but they've never promised to release all the source to a working version. Unless you can take the source, compile it, and produce a working executable, then there's no point.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
Yeah, I was aware of the CE NCs. However, my understanding is that they weren't selling well because most orgs just recycled 586-class PC hardware for this purpose.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
Now this is amusing. After seeing a constant barrage of "M$ Should Open Source...", they take a step in the direction of open sourcing CE, and now we have a barrage of whining too.
Is this a case of "be careful what you wish for, you might just get it" or is it simply a case of complaining about M$'s evil empire no matter what they do? Lets all try not to be quite so hypocritical when we ruthlessly slam MS while elevating our dear Linux.
-Jer-Jer
This is pure marketing hype. CE has been a source-release, or at least modular with a good ammount of source since inception. Any small footprint OS comes with source.
Why?
Because you only compile in what you need. QNX, VxWorks, CE and others. This is nothing new at all, almost redundant. Microsoft is just trying to get some hype.
Again, nothing has changed.
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
Independent Author, Consultant and Trainer
That attitude is short sighted and elitist
;-)
you forgot: ironic, sarcastic, and funny
Don't take everything so seriously...
Chris
San Francisco values: compassion, tolerance, respect, intelligence
Yep nothing really has changed, except the cost.
It's not OpenSource though.
It's just going to be free. They're giving away WinCE to help grow market share and sell more compilers. I realize that amazon has not yet patented this business strategy, but in the RealWorld it is generally known as loss leader marketing.
Give away the razor, make a fortune on the blades.
I agree... Yippee, big freaking deal.
-- I need more coffee. It's Monday. There is no such thing as enough coffee on a Monday.
Um, how has Apple "perverted" the meaning of Open Source? If you want the source to the kernel underlying Mac OS X (Darwin), you can go and download it. You can do what you want with it. The same is true for a streaming QuickTime server.
Apple hasn't open sourced any of the graphical layers of Mac OS X, but this is abundantly clear in the documentation. It's their choice. Put whatever GUI you want on top of Darwin and redistribute it.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
To quote from "The Princess Bride":
Hah hah hah hah hah hah clunk...
[Hey, send a not to Bill G, we just offed one more Linux developer...]
Just kidding. Actually, I've got better things to do with my time than look at any of Redmond's source code.
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
Someone mod the parent to this down. I'm usually the last to get into Moderation babble, but this one is just godawful. I mean, yes, some OSS code is pretty damn bad. Looking at RandomFreshmeatApp version 0.0.1 that just had its first public release, it's pretty bad.
And even some more important apps out there aren't coded too well (Imlib comes to mind). But part of what makes Open Source what it is, is the improvement of important things. If some software is really that important to everyone, it gets worked on. And it gets prettier. Want an example, look at pixbuf-engine in the Gnome CVS tree. The biggest effort of the current maintainer was to clean everything up from the old pixmap GTK engine. And it became better.
But in the end, the fact that a commercial company, making gobs of money, shouldn't be putting out amature code like you get from the RandomFreshmeat app. And also in the end, a comment that has no real substance and just trolls on deserves a *4*.
Well, when coding for WinCE, what API do you use? It's not just Win32, is it? Because if it isn't, it means that they still bring in money from their real cash cow, Win32.
Now, if Win32 was opened and every major OS out there could have a Win32 implementation that ran any Windows App imaginable, Windows would be dead.
But letting people peek at CE won't help us move toward that goal.
I don't see why M$ would embrace Open Source software. If they were to Open Source WinCE, do you think that they would publicly admit that th OSS community actually improved their product?
That would be an indirect endorsement of Linux.
I think M$ know that some of the best programmers (technical aspect) are OSS programmers, but they wouldn't have us believe that!
Sure, I love FreeBSD and OpenBSD like anyone, but only geeks know about xBSD. The whode damn planet knows about Linux, and that's where public perception sees Open Source.
I appreciate your support of Open Source, but it is Linux that has rendered the Open Source movement a public one.
This means nothing to any of us until this stuff is released under the GPL. Until then, its useless marketing garbage.
'cos the whole point of the open "bazaar" development model is that the community as a whole brings on the QC and, more importantly, the growth direction of the software. Just releasing source to get free proofreading is big time, suck ass cheapness. To be truly strong, you have to let it go....
Hey, it's called free speech. The day stories get posted with no hint of the poster or editors personality is the day I'm outta here!
First off, you self-involved snot, if you don't have anything constructive to add to the discussion, you can do everyone a favour and keep your mouth shut. Just because someone slips when they are typing (and doesn't notice) does not give you license to assume that they are beneath you.
Secondly: your criticism isn't even technically correct, because "loosing" is the way the word is properly spelled in England, and hence most English-speaking countries.
Third: if you're going to criticize somebody's grammar (and be pretentious about it to boot), you'd better make damn sure to not make any yourself, lest you show yourself to be an arse. May I remind you that "todays" is not the possessive form of "today", nor is "titanic" the correct capitalization of a proper noun.
Perhaps you'd benefit from going back to high school and brushing up on your Grade 9 grammar; or more constructively, perhaps even back to Kindergarten, so you can learn how to be polite and interact with others?
Greg
You'd feel pretty silly if I told you that I was dyslexic. Thanks.
Perhaps...but one is done by professional programmers and the other by hobbyists, right?
Which one would you expect to be better? wouldn't be the one you're paying money for, would it?
James
don't comment their code. If it was hard to write, it should be hard to read
.
MrCreosote Meow!Thump!Meow!Thump!Meow!Thump! "You're right! There isn't enough room to swing a cat in here!"
The article goes to great pains to explain that MS never said it was like open source and if they did they would get flamed the way Sun did. So what do I see next on Slashdot? "Microsoft Trying To Look Open Source With CE"
This graphic that you can't see when going directly to the article but is currently visible on www.zdnet.com/zdnn (at least, as of 3:55 pm eastern).
What, you mean YOU DIDN'T KNOW that JavaScript was synonymous with Linux, OSS, AND WinCE?! *boggle*
Ahh, what will those marketing geniuses think of next? I can't wait!
--
You can be an atheist and still not want to succumb to some weird cross-over sheep disease -- AC
I think they are opening it up so that someone ports it to a Palm, and they don't take the blame for developing it.
Beware the SetupWeasel
Not so fast. CE is being used today precisely for use in network computers. Many vendors are currently selling cheap CE-based NCs that connect to Windows NT Terminal Server (now built into into Win2k Server, and no longer a separate product). It's not particularly original, but apparently it works.
Aside from the fact that Terminal Server requires a *stupendous* amount of horsepower (RAM, CPU, motherboard, disk system) to run well with many users, this is, in fact, a great solution -- we're evaluating it for our office, as we find it somewhat pointless to have many employees, who only browse the net and use the same productivity/email apps, sit with $3,000 PCs when they can each connect from $400 terminals to a $10,000 terminal server.
I have a HP Jordana 320lx running CE 2.0, and I am a MS shareholder as of 2 weeks ago (only in it for the money ;) I like what can be done with CE over other handhelds (although Transmeta will undoubtedly change that), especially with Pocket Word and Excel, which help in school. But what is the big deal with them opening CE? I dont think us shareholders will notice a drop. CE is only (at least 2.0 and prior. 3.0 will be much more powerful) a small os intended for scheduling and light word processing on RISC processors, and runs from ROM. Opening it up would require a great deal of development to convert it to x86 or whatever you want, and still, that is pointless because you can do everything that CE can do in Windows 95. Go ahead, let them open source it. Somehow someone will make a neat hack of it and burn it on a ROM chip and put it in their HPC so they have a better CE. The ONLY good thing I can see coming of this is getting a way to load Linux onto a HPC, which hasnt that been done on one of the IBM HPC"s anyhow?
My guess (I did not see if other people put this down yet) is that they are doing it to keep wince preferred over Linux, PalmOS, BeIA, etc. Most apps are written for Windows (duh), and making wince free for developers to look at will keep it that way. This way they can make sure that only slashdot readers and miscelaneous geeks buy linux products and for everyone else it is windows FOREVER. But that's just my opinion... I could be wrong.
"Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes."
-E. W. Dijkstra
They could make the source free as in Speach without making it free as in beer. They could even charge extra for a source license.Their source license would simply require that you could only share code with those that had a valid source license.
I would be willing to pay an extra $100-$200 for a Windows license that came with source.
Then I could remove the stuff that I didn't need.
Want to work at Transmeta? Hedgefund.net? Priceline?
Can your IM do this?
Want to work at Transmeta? Hedgefund.net? Priceline?
Can your IM do this?
I don't think opening the source in and of itself would be enough to stop Microsoft from abusing it's power again. There are so many little details and loophopes that would be involved that I really don't think it would make enough of a business difference to Microsoft to have the government accept it.
Isn't one of the big things Open Source advocates are preaching to companies that opening the source to their products is a good thing and doesn't hurt them business wise?
Also, the reason they were found a monopoly isn't because of their code or their software design philosophies, but with their business practices.
None of this is intended as a flame, I'm interested in hearing opinions.
WinCE is also the palmtop OS that microsoft is pushing right? Palmtop Computing is supposed to be the Next Big Thing.
One could argue that if Microsoft lowers the hurdles for companies that develop CE-ized software, so they can understand the platform better, it will just anchor Windows that much more in the operating systems market.
Hey, all that software Joe User really loves is on his palmtop as well, it's very easy as far as he's concerned to transfer information back and forth. Everything works with everything else.
By giving away a product or even just offering the source to specific developers to a product that's not making much money right now, Microsoft gets companies trapped in the Microsoft world.
Palmtops are kind of a new field, and they're one Microsoft probably can't afford to lose.
Makes perfect sense.
Demons of Redmond..wow..the maturity level of slashdot submissions never cease to amaze me.
It is a good thing, even if it's a PR stunt, look at XFree86, while it's awesome, it still isnt as 'sleak' or clean looking as Windows, what draws people to XF86 is the fact that it's *powerful* what draws people to Windows is that it's *pretty* if nothing else, we can maybe get some code out of this for ideas on how to clean up XF86 a bit, I know I would like to be able to use the same key sequences for different programs in XF86, instead of having every program define its own :o(
I have to admit, when I have to use windows, it's very nice to be able to rely on alt+f working for the file menu, or alt+whatever for that menu. Sorry if this appears to be offensive to die hard MS haters, I do not like microsoft myself, but they obviously are doing something right. perhaps we can learn from it.
---
Just because you disagree doesn't make it offtopic or flamebait.
To me this just seems like they are trying to compete will linux for the portable OS market. As we have seen in many articles lately linux is definately the OS of choice for portables as it can be easily ported to different hardware. I guess microsoft is hoping that if they release the source for WinCE maybe they might get some support in porting it to different handhelds.
when everything is working perfectly.. BREAK SOMETHING before something else FUCKS up!
Yes, yes, M$ is a corporation and is responsible to its shareholders, so don't flame me on that point. I just would like to see something this software giant does benefit someone else also.
Cynical? You bet. Trust Microsoft? Never.
Now I can't wait for them to figure out a way to charge for "updates" to the source and slap some kind of license on what they originally said would be open: Microsoft, for its part, declined to comment on its Windows CE licensing intentions.
Then they will insist that those who contributed to the source pay to take a test that will "certify" them as Microsoft-approved contributing developers. Of course, such certification will expire rapidly and require developers to repeatedly renew their certification. I better shut up before they get any more ideas.
Release the source for the old stuff. I mean, it's not like you can even buy this stuff anymore.
Would be nice, wouldn't it? It'll happen about the same time the blizzards hit hades though. M$ business model is based on forced upgrades - it would make no sense whatsoever to do this from their point of view. /P
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
exactly. Just because a closed source author writes it, it is inherently no better or worse than a singularly mantained "open source" project.
money doesnt buy good code, it just buys a lot of coders.
Its about the technology, not the crap.
--jay
CE is the weakest flavor of the big M's proposed set of embedded device OS'es. Open sourcing software--much less an OS, or pieces thereof--doesn't do much good when the *platform* is, as with CE, out of reach of most h@kx0r-class folk anyways. I don't get it.
Maybe that's because it never got off the ground. Microsoft products and APIs are often pretty good in first incarnation. They just get increasingly hideous with each successive version, as the customers start screaming and rattling the bars.
Their process must be terrible if it lets chaos creep in like this.
I was able to compile and build a version of windows ce that I used for testing on low end 486 desktops.
When applying for programmer-job-descriptions, the WinCE source code will be open for you too!!!!
Bizar technology?
The release of the WinCE source fits in perfectly with the standard MS tactics (Introduce free/low cost product backed by monopoly to drive away competition). The Palm division of 3Com is splitting off into a new company, and while they will continue to produce their PDA lines, most of their efforts will be concentrated on developing the PalmOS (to license to sell to hardware makers). As everyone knows the Palm-based PDAs are slaughtering WinCE platforms hands down. So what a better way to clear Palm out of the market than to entice companies with the open source model? Microsoft wants companies to embrace WinCE rather than PalmOS, kind of the same way companies are introducing open source Linux machines rather than pricey, closed source NT boxes. At least that is the way I see it...
Soften the DOJ? I think not. The world is on to Microsoft's bullshit, and so is the DOJ. Microsoft is doomed. They will keep lumbering on for a few more years, only because of their obscene number of users (or is that, their number of obscene users?), but believe me, honest people who are informed already know what Microsoft represents, and are fed up with them. Microsoft are the pimps of the PC world; they are the ransom-demanding kidnappers of the technology revolution; they are the protection-racketteering Mafiosos of true innovation.
Erchie
Can you say "gimmick"?
At least they haven't resorted to using Bob Euker or scantily clad models... yet.
Your mouse moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect.
Computers are like air conditioners.
- They stop working when you open Windows.
It's funny but CE represents a major re-invention of Windows, visibly similar, invisibly vastly different. For one thing, a lot of the underlying X86 and DOS cruft is gone.
It's portable, runs from ROM, RAM or Flash EEPROM with equal dexterity, it has a unified namespace (drops the "C:" drive letter prefixes from path names) and it's simpler to configure. Since it's ALWAYS pre-installed, installation isn't an issue, except for small companies creating embedded systems, such as where I work, where where it's certainly the thing that's preventing us from using Windows CE.
I always thought "Windows for Appliances" was a better title, although I guess that gives the image of having to double-click to make your dishwasher start. Sort of absurd no matter how you look at it, but noble, and technologically sound.
Not everyone wants Windows, that's just hard for the Redmondites to accept.The Palm III is a perfect example of something with a CPU where people don't want "Windows.".
On the other hand, I have an HP 620 LX, one of the mid-sized handheld PCs running Windows CE. I only wish Microsoft had more software for it.
I've considered using it for embedded systems, and the problem is that for my uses (X86 systems, usually PC-104 form factor), it's extremely immature. If you are HP and you are making your own hardware and everything then CE would work for you. Heck, 90% of the most common plain-vanilla PC peripherals don't even have CE drivers. I think if they were serious about CE they should have gotten a driver base for it that at least covers all the most common X86 peripherals. So we've dropped it and used Phar Lap (www.pharlap.com) instead, which provides a very nice commercial RTOS that is somewhat Win32 compatible.
Warren Postma
CE never got off the ground in any arena it was targeted for, PDA's, set top boxes, toasters, etc.
Now they have declared their plans for their so called X thingamagig (gee, is that an original name) which I doubt will use CE (how many reboots just when you broke your highscore before that thing is tossed outside the window?) but a new fangled and hopefully more stable OS.
So the question is, what do we do with the dead duck CE? We "open source" it! It's brilliant! We can slow down development on CE for the next 2 years until we finally stop. If anyone wants to develop it they have the source, it's not our problem anymore.
There is good PR here too. We didn't kill CE, we gave it away!
I say CE is headed for the MS dustbin.
They are considering giving away the source code to "encourage [application] developer support". They are not considering Open Source'ing it though. So it's useless. The point of true opensource is freedom, the point of whatever the heck this is is PR.
Why should opensource developers spend time helping a product that's losing marketshare? It won't help scratch any itches, that for sure.
What excuse does MS have for this move? So that the code can be "out there"? Oh please, don't make me laugh! A ploy to make open-source seem untenable? Right. *giggle*
So they will not make it Open Source, but instead free to license. Well, availability at no cost ist fortunately not the deal with Linux, and neither behind the 'free' software movement. If you have the choice between, say, Lineo and Windows CE, both available at no cost, but you can expect a much more lively community behind Lineo, an open development model, and a high compatibility (talking of APIs), how would you decide?
This step will only bring WinCE to its end faster than ever. The hype is on Linux anyway, and giving WinCE away can not stop it. Go Open, or leave it. It doesn't even have to be GPL. But this way, it sucks. They just try to get sales by using a buzzword.
follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/moeffju
I opt for: Alt.binaries.windows.source.joke
I think that Microshaft should realease the source to all of there products under the agreement that all changes must be sent back to them. This way real developers could stableize the code and Microsoft would still make money. Linux still has a few years left to go in order to get to the same level of , in terms of easy of use, as Winblows. Most of the business comunity out there is forced to use MS products because business owners will not switch to a better OS i.e. Linux. I don't think that it is right that microsoft forces people to use such crap.
Sanity is the playground of the unimaginative
What is wrong with you people, do you not read and write the same language that you speak?
No wonder the academic level of todays high school graduates is sinking like the titanic.
Q: Where do you want to go today?
Lars -
Windows 95 4.00.950
Windows 95 4.00.950A
Windows 95 4.00.950B
Windows 98 (forgot the version numbers)
Windows 98SE
Windows (98)Millenium Edition
Yes thats right, Microsoft is still marketing MS-DOS code.
FOR GODS SAKES ITS THE YEAR 2000 AND THEY ARE STILL SELLING MS-DOS CODE !
Q: Where do you want to go today?
Lars -
If Microsoft were to open up Windows CE to the open source community, would this be the Windows CE that we have now, or will it be the new version (I forget what they've called it). If it is the old version then it would be just getting PR attention for old rope :-)
One other point though is that if Windows CE was to be open source it would provide a ready made hand held platform for the open source community to develop on that would have software already available, now that would be very nice! L
This has to be a public relations move only. As they have stated in the past they will not turn CE or anything else into an open source project and release under GPL. They are only planning to make CE available to embedded licenses. This is not Open, this is not GPL, this is not even what Sun did. The only reason they even leaked this is to get a little public feel for the possibilities, and this is enough to soften the DOJ. Personally I don't beleive any of it.
More race stuff in one place,
than any one place on the net.
They have been talking about a settlement that does not include structural remedies, or cultural changes. All this leaves is open source, in which MS would keep the trademarks, siphoning off the best ideas from the open source movement for their "official" windows. What would be the best response from the open source community? Ignore them, or rape the code?
Maybe they're open sourcing it becuase it's performed so badly vs. Palm and others?
_____________
I'll bet / with my Net / I can get / those things yet.
_____________
I'll bet / with my Net / I can get / those things yet.
--Dr. Seuss
Couldn't have said it better. Not that MS code is better in certain areas, (ask the IBM folks ;)) but 'opening up the source' is not always the way to get a program be better, just because the source gets flooded with all kinds of crapsource.
--
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
Having had a think about this, I suspect this has much less to do with Open Source, and more to do with Market Share (tm). I believe WinCE is heavily outsold by Palm in the US, and as far as OS licensing goes is under extreme threat from Symbian (Psion)'s EPOC32. In particular, the licensing costs of the two (WinCE and EPOC) are hugely different - something like $50 for WinCE and $5 for EPOC, which makes quite a difference to machines that need to make a profit at $200-$300. This could simply be an attempt to regain momentum by giving away the OS, perhaps with the plan of a paid for upgrade later on.
"but this certainly puts some power behind the whole Open Source concept."
Not to be offensive, but the open source concept already has as much power as it will ever need by all parties who will ever be concerned. Most developers don't look to M$ as a deity, and end users don't care about the source code.
Eh...
Earlier, when Slashdot posted the possibility that Microsoft may open source their code, I expressed my concern. The reason for this concern is because, when people ask when I am going to cut my long hair, I explain "I will not cut my hair until Microsoft goes open source!".
Them releasing the code to WindowsCE won't be open source, so I have nothing to worry about. Besides, WinCE can barely be considered an Operating System, much like DosShell can be considered a GUI.
Jailbrekr.
Feed The Need[goatse.cx]
Fight Spammers!
I don't understand why M$ bothers with PR like this. Lying in PR stories may be good for dealing with marketers and advertisers, but marketers and advertisers don't care if Windows CE is open sourced. PR stories without backing will have little effect on developers, who are the only people who would really care about or (dare I say) benefit from opening the source.
Point being: put up or shut up.
A choice of masters is not freedom
Yes, it's quite obvious that the so-called "source license" isn't going to be helpful unless you have huge sums of cash to pay the exorbitant licensing fee, and even then, you won't have the freedom to take wince code where you want it. Actually, this isn't extremely new, I know some windows programmers who get the code to certain parts of the win32 API on their MSDN disks. The simple fact is, however, that just because you can look at the code doesn't mean it's open source.
You can, however, get closer to true freedom by degrees. For example, Sun's license might be summed up this way: "All developers are equal, those that work for Sun are simply more equal than others." Or Trolltech's: "You can change Qt, but you can only distribute your changes as patches." But even these licenses allow you to make changes, they just restrict what you can use them for and how they can be distributed. As I understand it, the so called "source release" of wince wouldn't even allow that. You can see shoddy spaghetti code, but unless you're an imperial drone working in Redmond, you're powerless to improve it.
Does Microsoft actually think they'll fool programmers with this announcement? Doubtful. More likely, their targeting this BS at corporate execs in consumer electronics firms and other businesses. Thanks to the efforts of our pal ESR, and his many compatriots, open-source/free software is finally getting buzzword-style recognition, even among suits. MS is basically trying to trick executive types into thinking that wince is open-source and freeload off of the hacker community without stealing a line of code.
From a business standpoint, I think the only way MS has a chance at surviving in the embedded market is to release wince free-as-in-beer. Linux, NetBSD and the like make sense in embedded systems not only for technical reasons, but also for the fact that a $0 OS in a $1-$200 device makes a lot of sense. Even PalmOS is considerably cheaper to license than wince.
Of course, we should all take this with a grain of salt. As it stands, this is %100 vaporware, and a "leak" from inside Redmond doesn't really mean the situation has changed since say, a month ago.
Anonymous Luddite: "What do you think of the dehumanizing effects of the Internet?"
Andy Grove: "Not Much."
if it means it can help me with porting Linux/X to those CE devices. Currently those CE devices do not attract me *at all* due to the fact that they run "wince". Then there's the Samsung unit :)
Their PEERS ? Are you NUTS ? Microsoft is Peerless. For all my pals into Linux, would rather have a root canal than look at all those BSTR's and Windows code that passes as C++. Man... these guys are from a different planet. they even speak a diffrent C++!!!
#include <windows.h>
#include <system_errors.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
char make_prog_look_big[1600000];
main()
{
if (detect_cache())
disable_cache();
if (fast_cpu())
set_wait_states(lots);
set_mouse(speed, very_slow);
set_mouse(action, jumpy);
set_mouse(reaction, sometimes);
printf("Welcome to Windoze 3.999 (we might get it right or just call it Chicago)\n");
if (system_ok())
crash(to_dos_prompt);
else
system_memory = open("a:\swp0001.swp", O_CREATE);
while(1)
{
sleep(5);
get_user_input();
sleep(5);
act_on_user_input();
sleep(5);
if (rand() < 0.9)
crash(complete_system);
}
return(unrecoverable_system);
}
--
Have fun: Join D.N.A. (National Dyslexics Association)
Som you mean there code will be seend by the general public and there peers can review the quaility of code ! Wow I wonder why there are starting with CE so people can hack dream cast ! it should be interesting to see how this pans out ! OPEN SOURCE FOREVER !
>Would someone out there, please name ONE (can you say "REDMOND"?) good piece of software that Microsoft has written.
Age of Empires II. Pretty damn good strategy game, and it was made by Microsoft... and NO, I am not a MS supporter in any way shape or form. I just think it is a good game.
What can I say, guilty as charged. We're mostly amateurs and especially in the short term, the bang for the buck(time invested) usually rests in the actual code. Sitting back for a second, I could argue that all of those beautiful professional comments won't do me much good if I can't see them !
Lurking in the desert
As most users in the corporate world already know, WinCE is the one and only operation system to run. It is the best OS ever written. I run everything on CE, it totally rules.
I asked my friends and they all agreed that CE is the best OS in the whole world. Why anyone else would write anything that would compete with this wonderful OS is beyond me. CE runs games and solitare, and doesnt crash much. What else can you ask for?
I think everyone should be running CE and i cant figure out why Microsoft would release the source. I think they must be losing their minds... LONG LIVE CE!!
Brought to you by an adoring fan of the Natalie Portman fan club.
(c)Mastah_Monkey
Slappy
I'm of the opinion that Microsoft's conversion to open source is inevitable. They are highly dependent on people developing for their platform, and once the majority of Microsoft developers insist on open source, they will have no choice.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
there is no way there are some very big strings attached to this. microsoft want total control and nothing less. as for the 64 bit topic a few posts ago, a very interesting read it was... the mind bogles (how the hell do you spell that?)
50882960 - icq im the same as you, waiting to die, just like everyone else
This does not suprise me.
If you look at what WinCE is supposed to be; a Microsoft STRATEGIC MOVE, it was done as quickly and as cheaply as possible to give MS a product to offer in the handheld/settop market, to prevent possible competitors from making an end-run around the PC.
If your project's #1 priority is "get something out there fast!!" it's not going to result in clean or elegant code.
Needless to say, this is probably the most common #1 priority among commercial software products in this industry.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Ahh. Right. Another oops. The link really is LinuxCE. Just as a friendly note to moderators, when you see something like this and see that it is not a valid link, make sure that it is true, that it does work, and that it actually exists. I should have noticed that the first thing, but I failed to do so. Once again, I apologise.
Buy the ticket, take the ride.
I disagree. It's relatively small, very powerful, efficent, portable....
I like Linux, but would never want it to be used on aircraft or controlling an anti-lock braking system.
Would you rather those systems run Windows CE? Personally, I'd feel a lot better with a proven and stable OS behind the scenes. (I see no problem with Linux on an aircraft.)
"Best tool for the job" is infinitely more important than advocacy.
If you read my post, I said: "Which is better at doing the job, doing it right, and doing it quickly? THAT'S the one the developers are going to pick."
I didn't say it *had* to be Linux.
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon? :P)
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't.
What was that in the Halloween documents about embracing and extending into the OS arena much like they have in other areas?
Could this be some sick twist of that old MS ploy.
Embrace - Call what they're doing OS even though it blatantly isn't.
Extend - Use their market power to convince corporate america that what they're doing is real OS.
Then just use that posistion to downplan Linux and true OS as some sort of communist joke.
Man, I depress myself when I try to think like MS.
--- Juggle juggle@hitesman.com
You can download the slashdot code yourself, setup a pro Microsoft discussion forum, and editorialize (or not) any way you please.
That is the meaning of open source: you have access to the source code and can do with it whatever you like (subject to conditions of the GPL, MIT, BSD, or other open-source license it is distributed under).
Open source is completely orthogonal to the issues you raise. Certainly slashdot, an unashamed open-source advocacy, news, and disucssion community, is in no way obligated to pay any lipservice whatsoever to stories or products you may think highly of, but you have access to the very source code slashdot is built from and can easilly build your own pro-M$ (or pro-whatever) site yourself.
Oh, BTW, the FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE story came out yesterday. I just finished an ftp install onto a test box about a half hour ago. A very, very nice release, and a significant improvement over the already excellent 3.4-STABLE.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
I like the assertion that a network switch is more complicated than a handheld device, and will therefore require the extra beef of NT.
I guess the author is just rephrasing some M$ propaganda, but, come on, that's a ludicrous statement.
Unless, of course, the handheld device is a spork.
--
blue
i browse at -1 because they're funnier than you are.
whine whine whine. Is that all people do on here anymore? I think it's cool that MS is going to open up CE under whatever license, why? CE has alot of potential applications that open code would be great for. One of the best examples would be embedded and non-legacy systems. Right now If someone wants to build a low power limited feature product they need to make their own OS with their own software APIs or figure out how to fit a current OS onto their design. You say Linux; a multi-user OS is fine for workstations, servers, and to a lesser extent plain Joe Average desktops but when it comes to closed single user mini-boxes its utility dimishes. WinCE has the advantage of being very similar to Windows which means programmers could port their code relatively easily to whatever device. I bet one of the first places it pops up will be set top boxes, RTOS non-legacy low power products. Because of DirectX being deeply embedded into the CE API it wouldn't be too difficult to build fairly advanced gaming machines using stock hardware rather than spending megabucks designing your own. DirectX would also benefit game programmers because they could develop in a familiar environment. Stop whining you whiners.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
For an article describing something that is completely different from open source, they sure did use the term quite a lot. It sounds like they're just talking about a free-as-in-beer but very restrictive license for some hardware developers.
Damned straight you'll incur my wrath.
Perhaps some of the Win32 code would be useful for the WINE project? Of course, Windows CE has a different quirky implementation of Win32 than Windows 9X and NT. Presumably, no WINE user will want to emulate WinCE apps?? ;-)
cpeterso
The interesting thing was I used extrans, and a is one of the supported links. Right now the box definitely shows as "Extrans (html tags to text)", and if this isn't bold I think Rob has a bug to fix.
You are correct. My type-o. I suck.
I will not buy an American made car. Or better to say, I will not buy a car designed by an American corporation. Why? The same reason I don't use M$ products. Neither entity has a goal of delivering me a quality product. Instead, they both concentrate solely on maximising their own gain. American made cars appear to be designed to die at about 5 years (this has been my experience, YMMV). What a suprise that this is about the same time as most people's finance period. It is my belief that American metallurgy and quality control is good enough that a corporate boss can say "I want this part to last between 30 and 36 months" and he'll get his way. The point here isn't that American make poor quality cars. Just the opposite, they make high quality cars that are designed to break down under coporate fiat.
The same is true of M$. The quality of the end product is not controlled by the quality of the engineers. It is dictated by corporate fiat. In this case, Bill says "You have 3 months to produce a product", and then the company markets a first pass attempt. M$ definately has good programmers, but that doesn't mean that they are allowed to make good products.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
Furthermore, many respectible news agencies have extremely biased reporting styles. ZDNet appears to irrationally favor Linux over other operating systems, www.benews.com seems to like BE and for whatever reasons, and www.microsoft.com appears to be a page devoted largely to talk of some familiy of operating systems I've never heard of.
Serriously though, everyone gives Slashdot a lot of crap about their reporting. If you're looking for something that you're not getting here, go elsewhere.
And as others have mentioned, yes, BSD did get it's own article. Look before you leap :P.
-rt
======
Now, I think it would be GOOD to buy FIVE or SIX STUDEBAKERS
and CRUISE for ARTIFICIAL FLAVORING!!
So is the source from WinCE available anywhere on the Net? Someone who reads /. has to be an MSDN member, right? get a free GeoCities homepage and post it!
Cthulhu for President!
(darren)
Also, I think a little less bias in the selection of the stories themselves could be useful. Who on earth made the decision that the release of FreeBSD 4.0 wasn't even worthy of a mention as a "quickie,"
Perhaps you should read a little more of slashdot in future, to catch information about FreeBSD 4.0? Or, if you're more specifically interested in BSD articles only, maybe just read all the articles about BSD? After all, the information is quite available to you.
GPL made simple: What was my stuff is now our stuff. If you improve our stuff, please keep it our stuff.
No offense, but Linux is out of its league in embedded systems. Sure, you could use it, but embedded systems programmers are very particular about things--as they should be, considering that they're often working on systems that lives depend upon. You would never want a system with unpredicatable context switching times or free-for-all memory usage (i.e. dependent on malloc) in a critical system. I like Linux, but would never want it to be used on aircraft or controlling an anti-lock braking system. Never. There's a huge difference between reliability on the desktop and reliability in situations like these. "Best tool for the job" is infinitely more important than advocacy.
Also, I think a little less bias in the selection of the stories themselves could be useful. Who on earth made the decision that the release of FreeBSD 4.0 wasn't even worthy of a mention as a "quickie," yet the book review on assosciate programs was worthy of a whole article?
Erm...however decided it wasn't worthy of a mention of a quickie probably made that decision based on the fact that it already had its own article. FreeBSD 4.0 Released.
I have to say that I agree with the main thrust of your comment; the editorializing in the article topics and some of the article selection does get a bit ridiculous sometimes. However, you might want to do the slightest modicum of research (i.e. scan the Older Stuff slashbox) before you spout off ignorantly.
Want to work at Transmeta? Hedgefund.net? Priceline?
Can your IM do this?
Want to work at Transmeta? Hedgefund.net? Priceline?
Can your IM do this?
Sigh... I hope I get this one in M2. This is absolutely not off-topic. Until we have some kind of persistent thread where we can discuss topics primarily related to Slashdot, a post to a related/example article is the only acceptable forum for concerns of this nature.
jimjag was, in my opinion, out of line with his comments. Yes, he's obviously been around long enough and is knowledgable enough that the Slashdot powers that be respect his opinion more than they do mine; he gets to post the stories, and I do not. However, that does not mean he (or myself or anyone else) is above reproach. There was no good reason that his thoughts couldn't have -- and shouldn't have -- been posted in the discussion forum.
Please, let's see a little less editorializing in the items posted. Leave that to the person who submitted them, or to the discussion itself. There's no need for a display like this one.
-jay
Don't fret too much about Embedded NT. It's just one of the VMS test kernels they had lying around, with a couple of K in code tweak. In fact, most of the changes they made were to remove the 'Copyright 1989 Digital Equipment Corporation' notices, so you they couldn't have fucked it up too badly..
.sig: Now legally binding!
Eventually you'd have different versions of the kernel, 15 different (and not totally compatible) window managers, config files that you had to edit by hand using an external keyboard, etc.
:)
do you think anyone anywhere will be able to figure out what the code does? Or fix the bugs? Or make the system workable with any reasonable amount of work? Bah. They're "Open Sourcing" it because it seems like a good move to their PR department. "Hey - look! We support Open Source! See our code? See how big it is?" Yeah, I'd love to see Windows source code - I don't know if it would be readable by me, but I'd still love to see it.
Eruantalon
Eruantalon
The Annals of Middle-earth
Depends on what you mean by good. They are fairly "user friendly" (although there are several notoriously BAD elements in the UI design, I still have to admit that it's way ahead of what I have been able to find for linux - while some programs actually have very nice GUIs even those are hampered by the failings of X still, i.e. things like no "real" cut and paste across programs - usually it can be done, I know, but X is still far less friendly than windows, and this has to affect the real world rating of programs under them.)
On the other hand, in a number of other respects these programs are EXTREMELY poor - security being the number one concern, executable documents and the like offer very little boost to usability and totally break any notion of security. Of course, this may be on purpose - if it weren't for Word and Outlook's offences in these respects folks like McAffee (sp?) would be considerably less wealthy...
Wandering perhaps to the edge of being off-topic, my personal nomination for the one thing that linux needs most atm is a good GUI standard - no flames, I agree one hundred percent about freedom of choice, I love being able to choose how to set up my desktop to make me happy and so forth. But - the problem is, none of the currently available environments are really good, in a UI design/ease of use sense. It would be really nice if I could set up a workstation with a consistent, well designed UI using linux, but I can't quite do that yet. GNUStep anyone? Seriously... the NeXT stations were, in my opinion and in the opinion of a great many experts in the field, the pinnacle to date for usability. They are far superior to anything M$ has put out, Apple is trying to improve on it, but they seem to be breaking as much as they improve - this looks like a great opportunity for anyone that wants to see linux become viable in the desktop market. I suck as a coder or I would be hacking away at GNUStep right now, but since I haven't coded my way out of a paper bag in years I'll have to be satisfied hoping some people that CAN code think about this and maybe do something about it.
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
Logic dictates that there has to be a first time that a company releases something as open source. I had to make the same comment when Glide was opened up. The idea is that the momentum will build and eventually they'll release everything (in a perfect world). Don't blast them for not following the practices of Redhat, RMS et al.... blast them because their software is buggy, bloated and ill-conceived.
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
Okay its not THE greatest but I did not die laughing or anything. Take this with a grain of salt since I have no qualifications really to say if WindowsCE code is higher quality than Linux code or vice versa however there did not seem to be all that much kludge and stupid stuff going on. The API is a bit cleaner than the regular windows API. :-o
I had to do a small thing for CE once and I found the source on our MSDN disks :-).
So what! WinCE being made Open Source a la Microsoft means nothing to the real world. Nobody will embrace it because Microsoft is crooked, dishonest, greedy, and devious, and the world has already awakened up to that fact. Can you imagine a Nazi opening a Jewish community center?
Microsoft is incapable of writing good code, so why should the Open Source community do it for them. WinCE is properly named. There are no honest open source coders out here who will sell their souls to Microsoft to promote their crapola idea of "open source" WinCE.
It is not that Microsoft "doesn't get it" about what Open Source really is-- They don't want to get it-- they just want the world to think they are joining the human race. Fat chance! As one human with voting rights, I do not intend to let them in! Fsck Bill Gates. Fsck Microsoft.
Microsoft is dying. Linux isn't killing it. Their own greed and stupidity is.
I hope the DOJ wins the antitrust case, and all of the appeals that Microsoft makes fail. But I also hope that nothing is done to break them up. They deserve to be destroyed as the whole entity of evil that they are. And they will be-- by their own inept, stupidly greedy, Machiavellian deviousness. The world already knows what they are-- just let them sink into their own quagmire of putrifaction and feces.
Erchie
If the Wine people got their hands on that source, in some mysterious way, it could parhaps help them a bit with the rather inadequately documented Windows API. How much of the standard Windows APIs can be found in CE? Any windows hacker (Ehumm) care to comment?
- El riesgo siempre vive - Private J. Vasquez
Its not *THAT* hard to license parts of windows source code. It just costs money thats all. I think of they are speaking of open source it will be something a little more open like possibly a MSDN thing or so. I know people who have seen doze source and lived so you can get access to it if you want it bad enuff :-)
Jeremy
I find it hard to believe that so many people seem to think that because WinCE came from Microsoft that it is crap. Are all of you that much better than any programmer at Microsoft? Yes, it may be a marketing gimmick, and no, it's not the crown jewels, but I'm sure that there is *something* in that code that could be of use to someone. Even if as an anti-microsoft zealot, you can use it to see ways not to do something. In any case, I think it's detrimental to disparage this code just because of its source. If you are pro- open system, then you should welcome this - obviously if you have the source, it makes it much easier to develop applications that interoperate. Why not take this opportunity to allow people to use their Windows CE devices with Linux boxes, including more advanced functionality that hasn't yet been developed. Anything can be a resource.
-d11
I am a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
Actually it is a valid link. It's just supposed to be www.linuxce.org.
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Human beings, (and any similarly designed AI programs and humans) including Cmdr Taco, Hemos, and whoever the hell jimjag is, have opinions. What is much worse than the *editors* editorializing, is when media outlets assume a veneer of objectivity while concurrently promoting an agenda or not questioning the agenda or the people they agree with or who pay their salaries. Slashdot has been pro-free-software before "open source" was a buzzword exploited by Sun/Apple/(MS?). I know this and I know they are owned by VA.
... )
I am a reasonably intelligent human being (or AI or alien...) and I don't have to agree with what the editors of slashdot think. (except when Rob comes to me in my dreams and orders me to buy a VA Linux box). If I think that they are misreporting something, intentionally or subconciously, or just have their basic data wrong, I can check the facts myself, and make up my own mind and try to convince other people of my view. Moreover I hope that other people would take a rationally skeptical view when I open my mouth (or logic gates or jlkjds'ds oriface)
I've been reading slashdot for more than 2 years in part because it is visibly run by human beings (or AIs (who need to get a date with a pretty little ispell program) or aliens). Sometimes they f*ck up. But I can deal with that, I'm a human being too (or
In a lot of cases, it's not about who's open-source and who isn't. People are using Linux in embedded systems (as well as other places) because it does a better job than it's counterparts. So what if it's free, and open source. Which is better at doing the job, doing it right, and doing it quickly?
THAT'S the one the developers are going to pick.
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon? :P)
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't.
Amen to that my brother. In my quest to learn GTK programming I have spent some time hacking through some of the apps that ship with gnome and I have to say that they SHOULD LEARN TO PUT SOME FUCKING COMMENTS in their code.
Writing good code is more than coming up with clever little hacks or the tightest algorithm. Writing clean, well commented code with descriptive variables goes a long way in my book. Some code I looked at was just fucking awfull..no comments at all and variable names with no meaning at all. Yeah it's a pain in the ass to write comments, but it's more of a pain in the ass to slog through uncommented spaghetti code.
So don't get all high and mighty until your house is in order.
I know for a fact, from talking to a Microsoft employee that there *are* people at Microsoft who are pro open-source. Remember when ESR gave a talk at Microsoft a while back in the summer?
:)
Well it seems as though they might be taking some of the good points of his talk (like they would do with ALL of the people that they bring in: and they have a very *large* impressive list of speakers) and applying it possibly to CE.. Why you may ask?? here is my theory:
CE is loosing badly in the PCD market. Palm has taken out the whip and is giving them a good beating. CE is a very modular Operating System that you *can* hack on to some extent. For example let's say that you don't like the graphics subsystem (as in the case of some OEMs) you can rip it out program you own and plug it back in using the hooks that exist in the other modules. Of course the next logical step here is to open some of the source up.
But then again it might not be a PR thing. CE 3.0 is just around the corner. (could this be ths oss release??) With CE 3.0 they are promising some sort of Real Time capablility which would be geared towards the embeded environment. Now wouldn't it make a bit more sence to have an open environment for this kind of thing?
Getting back to MS and open source. Most MS employees took ESR's talk very well but there were two points that some could not get over
1) Security in an open environment is harder: (we all know the downfalls of security though obscurity: sooner or later someone figures it out)
2) Smart people don't work for free making free projects: (actually I heard that someone put up their hand and said "hey: I will never work for free" In which I reply with two things, first think speech not beer, second one if my boxes has been up for 108 days cause it was programmed by someone stupid
Can't you see what this is? A cynical attempt to kill a large proportion of the open source community. How many of us are literally going to die laughing when we see the quality of this code?
The article had MS PR flaks describing CE in a number of unflattering ways--including as a "companion to NT Embedded." I guess I should count myself fortunate that I've never even heard of this critter. Personally, I can't imagine NT having the uptime, stability, or simplicity to operate as an embedded system.
In the meantime, can anybody here think of anything in CE's source that might be worth reading? MSFT's not exactly giving away the whole store here.
You know what I really want them to open source? Word for DOS 5.0. There never was a nicer word processor.
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This is not my sandwich.
Actually, CE is a pretty damn good OS in its own right. It is influenced by NT, offers DirectX support in some versions, is fairly light, fairly memory conserving, fast, and fairly stable. Might suck as a palmtop OS (too big) but would be pretty nifty as a general purpose desktop OS. If the Sound/Input/Graphics/Music parts of the Win32 API were taken out of CE, and ones based on DirectX with some extra libraries over them to implement some easier to code functionality, it might make a fairly good general purpose OS. The reason is that
A) It already runs on x86. The only thing that would be needed would be to tweek it for the architecture.
B) It already runs on a lot of RISC procs. Should be fairly easy to port it to some more. The code base is probably protable because it runs on x86, MIPS, and SH3.
C) Most hardware already has DirectX drivers. Small tweeks and a recompile might be necessary, but could be doable.
D) DirectX on this system rocks. It is pretty deeply embedded. Imagine, your normal desktop being drawn through DirectDraw, ultra low latency sound through DirectSound, and low overhead input from DirectInput. Okay, enough about DirectX, I think you get the point.
E) At an 8 meg memory footprint (maybe 16 meg if you put all the other stuff I mentioned) it would whoop Linux/X, Windows, and most of the other GUI OSs out there. (Even BeOS needs 32meg to feel like BeOS)
F) Back to DirectX, the driver model is greatly simplified, giving a smaller chance of stuff breaking.
You do realize that MS is standing there with an OS that with a few months of careful coding, could easily become a very kick-ass Windows 2001.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Here's a point-by-point dissection:
Microsoft Corp. is contemplating giving Windows CE to some developers for free.
The keyword is "some". And by developers, they mean the developers they recognize as developers. That is, friends. There is nothing wrong about doing it. Nor is there anything new about it.
Microsoft's revenue comes, instead, on development tools and maintenance contracts, sources said.
The open source OSs, Linux, *BSD, and Hurd, come with all of the development tools bundled. You can get them from the same sources that you got the OS and all of the applications from. If you have the program, you can get the source and the tools to compile it. Every user is a potential developer, or more to the point, every potential developer can become an actual developer for the cost of downloading and installing the tools.
For now, developers say, Microsoft isn't contemplating going so far as to turn Windows CE into an open-source project, which would allow developers to make changes to the source code and share their work with Microsoft and others in the development community.
So they are not creating any potential developers.
Why now? Microsoft is considering the move to stave off competitive embedded Linux products.
The bottom line is that Linux is more portable. For embedded systems, having a portable OS means that your code can outlive the hardware it originally ran on. Oh wait, that is true of any kind of code. It also means that your choice of hardware is not limited by the OS as much. I'd say that constitutes substantial pressure.
Now, why could this help them anyway? Is there anyone inside Microsoft or out who believes that the open source community is Microsoft's friend? Okay, there are many people in open source who also use Microsoft products and are happy with them. But alienating the open source community is not exactly something Microsoft loses sleep over. This gesture doesn't mean much, but the people it is meant to impress are people who have heard the words "Linux" and "Open Source" only in connection with business news about the Redhat and VA Linux IPOs. They haven't read The Cathedral and the Bazaar and they don't know what makes open source work.
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
I think the article should have said something like: "Microsoft is contemplating the possibility of thinking about maybe considering letting some specific developers in certain situations look at parts of the WindowsCE source code."
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My mom's going to kick you in the face!
Our humble little /. is only a tiny little blip compared to the mountian of marketing garbage that micros~1 spews out every day. I, for one, welcome the editorializing about micros~1 in order to have a balanced opinion of the facts.
Where can I turn to find real-world, hands-on evaluations of micros~1 products? MS? ummmm no. They're so in love with their stock options you hear actual ms "product managers" using phrases like 'this __DOS2.1-DOS3.0-Win1.0-Win3.0-MsBOB-WinCE___ is an exciting new paradigm shift'.
The best anology I can think of is watching your network evening news (liberal) and tuning into Rush (conservative). Neither may be perfect, but by sampling content from both sources, I get to decide what's signal and what's noise.
The problem is that you're so conditioned to reading the "ZDnet ms press release" on a daily basis that this is the first time you're hearing "The emperor has no clothes".
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Also, I think a little less bias in the selection of the stories themselves could be useful. Who on earth made the decision that the release of FreeBSD 4.0 wasn't even worthy of a mention as a "quickie," yet the book review on assosciate programs was worthy of a whole article? God forbid a VA Linux subsidiary would have any mention of a non-Linux based OS in a somewhat positive light! Okay, openness lovers, why not open up your story selection process a little bit?
Yes, Microsoft opening up their source code to CE doesn't exactly match what Linux zealots consider "true" open source. Quite frankly, do you even expect that they would open up the source code to any of their programs and say, "Here, take it and redistribute our programs for free?"
...expecting this post to be moderated down as "Unpopular Opinion," or something related...sense the cynicism?
Microsoft is in this for the money. If they're going to open up the source to their flagship programs, then it'd be stupid not to expect that there will be heavy licensing and the such attached with it. Do you think Microsoft could afford to let their programs go open source...at least as defined by the Linux crowd?
Microsoft has stockholders to keep happy, and they sure as hell aren't going to keep them happy by losing money by open sourcing their flagship programs.
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The real Raunchola isn't cool enough to have any imposters
The Open Source pot should NOT be calling the Microsoft kettle black... take a look at some of the code from Open Source projects some time. It's some of the worst, inconsistently indented, uncommented, algorithmically brain-damaged on earth.
Not a quickie, a whole article. Right here: BSD: FreeBSD 4.0 Released
Who on earth made the decision that the release of FreeBSD 4.0 wasn't even worthy of a mention as a "quickie," yet the book review on assosciate programs was worthy of a whole article?
Did you miss this article?
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E_NOSIG
Granted it isn't as much of a step as they could take. But it is still a step in the right direction. Of course I don't care if it was open source I would never look at the billions of lines of code for windows 2000:) Unless I was really into optimizing it for a game I was programming, but I don't program games so I will continue using my friendly UNIX servers. I would like to see them starting to open up more source so that maybe we could yank out parts of applications we dont need so that we could get them back to working on our old boxes. If this is a first step great and let us hope that. However, the bashes that are going to come will probably tell much more true of MS than hoping they will see this is good and become more and more open source in the future.
I am 31337 or something.
Read the article. MS is focussing on giving away WinCE for free. They may give away the source, but that's doubtful. If they do give away the source, it will probably go out to a limited group.
Why bother? There is too much publicity about companies that chose Linux because it was "Free". not "Open Source". MS Sees opportunity, they can capitolize on "Free" cause they hardly make any money on licensing. So this definately won't grow to the regular Wins because they make most of their money on those from licensing.
We need to get more companies to emphasize "Open Source" when they discuss their choice of Linux for embedded systems.
chris
-- I need more coffee. It's Monday. There is no such thing as enough coffee on a Monday.
I briefly worked at a company that writes WinCE compilers and build tools for Microsoft. Microsoft outsources these projects to other companies. Compiling a WinCE kernel requires many batch files and a custom IDE called Microsoft Windows CE Platform Builder to edit the (ugly) config files. The Platform Builder IDE is based on the source code for Microsoft Visual Studio 5.0 (yes it's old code). This Microsoft C++ code was literally the worst code I have ever seen/debugged! I'm not exaggerating. I'm talking about C++ classes with 50+ public methods and 20+ public data members! Microsoft has no concept of modularity or data encapsulation.
cpeterso
You have been able to get the source for CE for a long time. An "evaulation" version of the Windows CE source comes with our MSDN disks. Of course, you still have to license it if you want to do anything with it, but the souce *IS* already available and has been for at least a year.
If you really want a true open source OS for your Windows CE machine, take a look at <a href="http://www.linuce.org">LinuxCE</a>. A port of BSD is also up and running on the same devices.