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Netpliance Ban I-Opener Mods
After we ran this story about running NetBSD on an i-opener (and this earlier story from a Linux perspective), MrPoopyPants writes "I was considering buying one of the Netpliance I-Openers with intent to modify it but when I followed the link I discovered this notice. It appears that they will no longer sell their products without the service and they have renderd the devices immune to modification." Netpliance have also issued a press release announcing the same thing. This is somewhat ironic, as their developer's corner page says "Netpliance believes in open source development. As part of our effort to support the community, we will be developing a site that will be the premier source of i-opener product information. Please watch this site for more details." Netpliance are soliciting ideas and feedback, to devcorner@netpliance.com.
It is presumably a passive matrix LCD screen. Those desktop LCD screens you mention (and those found in most mid to high-end notebooks) are active matrix. The difference is exactly as you describe- refresh 'speed'. Passive matrix is/can be significantly cheaper than active matrix. It's quite possible the screens are NOS from a notebook vendor. That would keep the price very affordable for Netpliance.
They dug their own grave it seems... That gizmo with the mods could have been one bad killer app for any hacker. But no.
His Web site, which details how to make the modifications, has received over 300,000 hits. His Internet service provider has had to dedicate more bandwidth to serving up his page to interested viewers and has already sent him a bill for an extra $1,000 over his usual site hosting fee.
Maybe ppl can send Segler a few bucks as a sign of appreciation.
craw, not logged in
Hell, I just go to the cellular dealer after they close and dig them from their trashcan by the fistful. I've never actually gotten one that was bad. Often times I also find the service manuals and schematics to the very phones I'm salvaging.
Is this immoral? I think not. They're good for emergencies even without "service" and have a nice assortment of good components. Hell, the amplifier IC in the brick units costs around $30 to buy, not to mention the other decent parts such as the diplexers and such.
People who spend $300 on a cellular phone are fools. Why pay for something when it's free for the taking? I guess this is what seperates the resourceful from the blind and brainwashed jackasses in the world.
OK, this has really been said already by a number of people, but I just wanted to cast my vote to corroborate what's been said.
HELLO!?!? Did anyone actually expect otherwise? Did you expect them to just say, "Oh! We goofed! We thought we were smart by selling at a loss and making up for it with the dial-up service! Well, too late now, we'll just have to keep going until we go out of business next month!"?
Would ANY ONE of you out there who owned such a company, no matter how dedicated to open source, that would do any differently than they have?
But the "birthday present" idea cannot possibly compete, since for close to the same price range, you will be able to get a Playstation 2.
;-)
Which will be capable of web browsing, and
Oh so much more
the site is not shut down...www.linux-hacker.net/iopener/
As soon as I saw the post on linux-hacker I went to 3 circuit cities and couldn't find any NetPliances in stock... So I called them to order one... Apparently the thing ships from overseas, and it's about $40 shipping...
The sales rep didn't say word one about being required to subscribe to the service, and I didn't agree to such charges being applied to my credit card. The only thing I agreed to was the charges for the machine and the cost of shipping...
Anything else - I'm not paying. I'll dispute those charges until the Earth falls into the Sun.
It's not my fault that NetAppliance has a bunch of imbeciles working for them and they left a hole that could be taken advantage of by someone desiring to explore a piece of hardware which they purchased...
I'll damn well do whatever I want with whatever I purchase and they can use their TOS agreement for something I won't mention...
It's Stealing? really? That's funny, because when I went into CC to buy one, I looked at it, thought.. hey, it looks cool, and when I told the sales guy that I wanted one, he sold it to me..
I don't remember signing a contract, or seeing a sign that said I needed anything additional with my purchase.. The salesman didn't even tell me that I couldn't use it with my own ISP, he didn't say anything about service..
What makes it a binding contract? How do you figure I'm stealing?!?! Like someone else said before, if I bought a cell phone without a contract, I could use it for anything I want. If I want to tear it open and put a hard drive in, I will if I think a cell phone with a hard drive is useful..
What are you people waiting for? Free beer to whoever figures out how to bypass their fix!
They probably license the software only in the configuration that it ships and now some *bad thing* has happend.
Let's try to put a positive spin on this affair.
According to this report, "The company said today it doesn't expect to be hurt financially by the situation."
"The company believes the reported unauthorized reconfiguration of the i-opener Internet appliance has not had material impact on its operating results or general product availability," it said in the statement.
So the stock price moved up a little, reasssuring investors.
The truth is that Netpliance always intended to lose money on the machines. According to the SEC reports, about half of the cost of the machines--but that was not "cost" as we know it--it is being charged to "marketing expenses" instead of to hardware expense. But the accounting might suffer because only $100,000 was allotted to returns, much too low in any case.
So there's nothing immoral about buying the machine and not buying the ISP contract. Netpliance tried to sell the iOpener at $299 and then $199 and there were not enough takers. They found customers at $99, and the marketing dollars were well spent in making a lot of people aware of the machine. For the same reason, a new restaurant that opens is wise to skimp on tables and force customers to wait in line. There's nothing like a line outside to encourage more customers to wait for something that must be "that good for people to wait for."
Now that Linux and BSD programmers have opened up the iOpener, maybe we can see how it fits into an Open Source model instead of the foolish business model Netpliance tried.
The technology of the iOpener is about 2 years old now, but is well balanced between CPU, RAM, and so on. The fact that it lacks a floppy drive is an advantage for the "thin client" model.
What I would like to see would be a bunch of these machines in a classroom connected to a Linux server but not directly to the Internet. They could use either USB Ethernet or connect to a multiport serial card, whichever is cheaper.
Maine Governor King has already proposed spending $300 for each Maine 7th-grader to have a laptop. I bet few Maine classrooms have enough power outlets to support laptops, but they could accommodate these iOpeners easily.
Linux could come in as a client OS cheaper than the QNX licenses, as well as to run the server PC, which need not be an expensive machine either.
All this would take is for somebody to take this business model to somebody who can put it together better than did Netpliance. Who will do that?
Sure, they got the attention, but how interested do you think investors are going to be when they realize that the company is loosing what is probably at least $300 per sale?
If you think the prior comment is not worth a 4, why do you think that your pointless comment is worth a 2?
The engineers are obviously good. Who said they didn't want or expect this to happen? Please. Anybody making a box like this would know that they'd be hacked--the spec is too hacker friendly for this to be an accident. An IDE connector? Please. It's like a sign saying "please hack me baby."
Anybody who designed this can put it on a resume and get about 10 competing job offers their first 10 minutes off the plane in San Jose from any firm in the valley. We know good hackers here..
How ya gonna do that with no floppy drive?
Yep, maybe true, but in any contract, both parties need to be aware of the terms before purchase..
I can't sell my car to someone, then tell them after they buy it that they can only come to me for gas. I think if I told someone that anyways they'd laugh, but that's besides the point.. What I'm saying is that I bought it out of the box, AS IS. (as is assumed with most store purchases) in some cases it's not that way (cell phones) but, they make it clear to me when I buy it, or it's not binding..
it's pretty simple.
Another example of a sue-happy american.
Do you want Iopener to exist? Do you think they make money on a $99 sale price? I'd say the cost of the unit is more like $400 - to them. Just because it got hacked doesn't give you the right to get morally superior about it - or to expect them to (effectively) give you $300 in cash.
It's people like you who stop the intended market (people who want a simple all-in-one net device - and the Iopener is pretty sexy as far as net devices go) from getting a good deal. You're stopping technology getting to the people who need it most. Not good.
I personally wouldn't mind paying around $250 for these things but what I'd like to see is hacker versions with incrementally larger screens. Say at around $100 per 2 inches. Heck, I think there is a business model here for $400-$600 units when tied to a $1200 Linux server to feed apps like StarOffice these thin-er beasts.
This is pure bull. People *and* corporations act in self interest.
I think what happened here is that the Netpliance folks wanted their potential buyers to get warm fuzzies from not having to sign a service contract. At that point either they:
a) Didn't think about people buying the hardware without subscribing, or
b) Considered it, but miscalculated how hard/expensive it would be to seperate the use of the hardware from their service
If the answer is (a) then they didn't do all the thinking they should have before starting business.
If the answer is (b), then they chose poorly and should be more careful next time. It is like someone deciding how large a key to use when encrypting a piece of data... you consider the value of the data and how long you want it to stay secure. Would someone spend $4 million to build a custom machine to brute-force decode the recipe to Coca-Cola? Maybe... you probably need a longer key. Would someone spend that same $4 million to brute-force decode a note to your girlfriend? Probably not.
Pop quiz:
1) Would someone spend $20 on a cable to use an i-opener? Obviously YES
2) Would someone spend $40 for a cable & Torx screwdriver set? Yeah, well at least those people that know what a Torx is.
3) Would someone spend $120 for a cable, Torx, and a flash programmer? The hackers still will.
4) Would someone spend $5680 for a cable, Torx, flash programmer, logic analyzer and in-circuit debugger to use an i-opener? A few of us would.
Unless there is some kind of legally binding agreement, once you buy the thing, you can do whatever the hell you want with it, its your property and you can modifiy however you want to. So where do they get the whole "unauthorized" thing from? It seems like they're more afraid of losing investors than they are of trying to modify their business model to account for those units that aren't going to be used through their internet service. One thing they could have done is had 2 price points, with or without internet service, or even offered another model with a hard drive and network card installed and priced it to make a profit instead of as a loss leader. If they don't do it, someone else will soon enough.
Many posters, not just Buttercup, have this problem.
Open Source is about creating open products, sharing them with a community which nutures and enhances those products, and proving at the end of the day that the correct way to build good products is by opening them up from the beginning.
Open Source is not about assuming you have some god-given right to break into and change anything you don't like by cracking cases and reverse engineering proprietary products while ignoring, working around, or violating TOS.
Views like this keep the Open Source movement from being taken seriously. Grow up.
Open Source can work without resorting to bending and/or breaking rules, laws, contracts, terms of sale, license agreements, etc.
I spose getting one of these things outside of the US is an impossiblity...I primarily run macs, but I would love to have a small x86 linux machine, as my nubus mac only runs mklinux :P
The MSN deal was fashioned as a loan because it's supposedly easier to get someone to pay up if they broke the deal than if it were a contract. At least that's my understanding. Or maybe it was some voodoo Microsoft accounting.
Gee. If we nerds would just keep quiet about stuff, perhaps things like this wouldn't happen?
Of course, then not many people would find out about this stuff in the first place. But, really, how many people saw that first article and went right out and bought one? Not many, I expect.
It won't be a winmodem on a 486, they can't really spare the CPU time to be a modem DSP too. I suspect a real modem on the end of com port will be detected when you get linux to boot on it...
I don't know what you're talking about with "you're stopping technology getting to the people who need it most." We're not talking about emergency food rations here.
Fact. Netplaince offered something for sale. Fact. People bought it at the demanded price.
For Netplaince to deliver something other than what was purchased is just plain fucked up.
Nobody made them sell the thing for $99. Nobody made them use standard equipment. The company is being disingenuous about supporting open source and developers and then trying to fuck them on the delivery of what they'd fairly purchased on the open market.
They tried that in the beginning - didn't work. That's when they started doing the "loss leader" thing. What they should do is go *back* to the two-tier model - I'd bet $5 that they'd sell a hell of a lot more boxes at $300 and with no ISP commitment!
Oh, and for those who are having fits because "people are stealing from the company", bullshit. I'm not responsible for someone else's business model, and I'm sure as hell not responsible for keeping a company in business. That's what the free market is all about - if you produce a product that people will want, you'll do well. If you try and beat people over the head with legal bullshit, you and your company deserve to get flushed. End of story.
Has it occurred to anyone that maybe the reason we are all so interested in hacking the Netpliance I-Opener is that there is *NOTHING* even remotely close to it in terms of capabilities or price? I mean the next best thing is a laptop, and they start up around $1000.
The I-Opener is not perfect. Perfect would include an ethernet port, cdrom or dvd drive, second ide bus, builtin separate keyboard and mouse ports, battery support, etc.
But if you are looking for a cheap LCD display with a little processing power attached to it, e.g.: a portable computer, the I-Opener just can't be beat! And it's cheap enough that we are not afraid to tinker with it.
Granted, this doesn't suit Netpliance's business model. But that is a fundamental flaw in Netpliance's corporate strategy.
And more to the point: Should a flaw in their business strategy curtail my legal rights? Because, if it does curtail my legal rights, I can think of certain large business that will be very happy to misuse such sentiments.
Remember when publishers tried to ban the reselling of used books because it cut into their profits? How are you going to feel if someone tells you not to resell a used game because that interferes with Microsoft's bottom line? And doesn't Samba interfere with Microsoft's attempts to sell servers?
Where do we draw the line here?
geez. what a dumb ass. get your story straight. first of all, Netpliance did not requier a contract because *NO other ISP can connect i-openers for service. That's completely different than the cellphone story. They did this intentionally to not scare people away. I'm sure originally they thought people would Have to used thier service, other wise, why buy it? secondly it doesn't take sodiering or anything. Thirdly, if my parents lived in thier service area, I would highly recommend i-opener for them. And i know i'm not alone, many people are hacking i-openers while saying that they will buy one for thier mother. it's a great product and they lucked out on this attention.
for my penis!
It's lonely down there!
Untrue! Yes, they have a right to modify their product any way they want, as long as existing orders (eg backorders) are filled with machines that AREN'T modified. Otherwise, they need to provide a full refund.
Interesting. Maybe if you try www.linux-hacker.net/iopener It Works For Me
My i-opener shipped on the 20th, evething is fine. I think they just wanna scare people while trying to get linux community to come up with good ideas for them.
>Did you notice that http://www.linux-hacker/i-opener/ no longer exists?
That's because it is http://www.linux-hacker.net/iopener/ , you dumbass!
Or like buying a car without any brakes. (Hey, we said it would go, we didn't say it would stop!)
The netpliance computer sure resemples the new Casiopia FIVA. The FIVA is a full PC that is only 8.1" by 5.3" and has much the same specs as the netpliance setup. There are many notable physical resemplences in addition to the size of the motherboard. The FIVA comes equiped with a 3.2 GB hard drive that does not spoil the 3/4" width profile. I can be sure not having the Netpliance unit, but I do have a FIVA and am waiting for Circuit City to fill the backorders so I can find out for sure.
Obviously they've changed the spec for SOME reason. Just what reason do you think that might be? Product improvement?!?! Get real, anything is "hackable." They're intentionally removing a truely "value-add" capability of this machine, that is well-documented not only on the net, but in their own press releases. Yes, people who ordered before the 23rd (or whenever) should be entitled to a refund if they receive a modified machine.
The iopener is priced at $99 because they know they can make money on the service. They loose money if you don't use the service. It only makes sense that they would not want to give you the ability to take away their only source of revenue.
Yeah, I'd like to have a cheap LCD screen. But I don't want it badly enough to get one at someone else's expense; my ethical subroutines won't allow it.
life gets real interesting if you accept their free easy credit. - anonymous coward (for info on anonymous cowards, freedomlaw.com/T&S)
It's the year 2000 and yet companies still think their is a golden goose in selling dial up service at less than 56K, over POT lines??
Get with the program -- if their is no way no Network it -- they might as well be giving them away on street corners.
Now -- if they were selling them for $300 bucks and packaging them with the ability to add a NIC and run whatever OS the quality hardware could handle, then maybe I would listen....
And as far as the "Save $400 bucks and commit to 3 years of POT dial up" that other companies are spinning -- I have nothing but pity for the poor fools who buy into that scheme.....Or maybe I pity anyone who is still dialing up...I love my cable modem, I love my DSL...I love my T1....
Broadband is here!
MR T.
Once it's in my hands and legally purchased, I can infact turn it into a hatstand if I want to. IT'S MINE. That thing (possesion & exchange) which drives capitalism also gives me the perogative to hack it, use it or turn it into a hat stand.
They offered product under certain terms and the market obliged them. They're not naieve cretins. Their business. It's their jobs to look out after their own best interests. That's what all those lawyers are for.
If we buy their product and then exploit it for more than it was worth, THAT'S CAPITALISM in it's purest form. You airmchair moralists have no standing to whine.
This really isn't an 'open source' issue. Although, the same sorts interested in hacking a physical thing are likely the ones hacking software things.
It is **NOT** "stealing their hardware!!
You BUY the hardware. You OWN it.
It does cost them money. But that's their fault, for selling at a loss.
It still ain't stealing.
umm, ok, whatever.
There are such rules, but they only apply to one company and one particular product, which isn't allowed to be forcefully bundled with a web browser. Solution: The company in question came out with a different product that contained much of the components of the old product, and attached the web browser to it.
how the hell is it pronounced?
You're not making sense. If someone buys Bleem or Virtual Gamestation, and buys a bunch of Sony PlayStation CDs to go with it, Sony rakes in profits from a new software customer without having to eat the expected unit loss from the sale of the hardware. In short, they make more money.
speak for yourself. the general public isn't as cynical as the population of slashdot. anyone who can in good conscience rip off the company in this way should think twice next time the badmouth a company for treating consumers like a lower life form.
Perhaps you're just now discovering that the I-Opener is not a car? That computer technologies are, as a matter of fact, so different, they say we're in a different "age" (the information age). That you're pitching simplistic analogies to people who should know far better?
Looks like they are reverted their target back to harried single moms.... jeez.. who'da thought that a huge spike in sales was a bad thing. "dont touch me there. you'll violate your warranty" -i-opener-
> The VCs' eyes will roll in their heads, and their response will be, "No, it's WinCE for us all the way."
... the I-Opener shipped with QNX. I think they'll say "no, we'll just charge full price for it".
Er
Mmmmm. Microsoft employee, is it? Or some other big company?
thats cos their fuck wits, and I'm not pissed at all
Hold on how much does it cost to build thouse things? If they can do it proftably in the 200-300 range then they most likely have a market for an unencombered verson.
Did anyone consider the possibility that maybe they haven't done a damn thing to the hardware, the software, or the legalese short of putting some dopey disclaimer on their website? Netpliance really is just a marketing machine for an IPO. To think that they can pull a technical 180 in merely a week is ridiculous, especially when they have product all over the place.
I wonder how many people would pay the $21 monthly for some required length of time just as a kind of payment plan. Let me pay $21/month for kickback to iopener on the nifty little gadget, but let me run my own software on it! You know what makes more sense is that since their isp service is subcontracted from large network providers, paying iopener $21 directly would probably double their monthly revenue per individual.
There's really no excuse for Netpliance not developing and selling their product properly to fit their business model. This goes back to the marketing machine. I used to work at a company that turned into a marketing machine, and I see the same gears turning at Netpliance. Stupid fucks.
Sure, Netpliance have banned modifications to their i-opener product but in light of this page, they are in fact innovating. I don't know what you feel, but an officially endorsed Open Hardware Platform is MUCH cooler than any cheap hack that is bound to run out sooner or later, and in this case has. :)
btw. I have an i-opener. Took it out of the box, it looks sweet
believes in open source development. As part of our
effort to support the community, we will be developing
a site that will be the premier source of i-opener
product information. Please watch this site for more
details."
There is now another sentence inserted on the developer's page:
"We are looking into providing an open hardware package for the developer
community."
Because they loose money on the sale of the hardware. It's costs them more than $99 (minus Circut City's cut) to make the hardware, so we can reason that they are loosing money by selling the box with no monthly revenu stream attached. See? That wasn't so hard to understand was it? It's not like 1000 other people haven't pointed this out before.
Of course, I work there... but, anyway. Check out solopoint.com to see our take on the home internet appliance. we are very beta right now and I am in the process of rearchitecting the UI.
All the cell phone plans I have ever signed up for stated a $300-$400 fee for breaking the ToS contract. Netpliance could have done the same thing. Maybe, maybe not.
is dere a ban on grits being, uh, hot and being tossed down my trousers?
Im cancelling my order as well.
All they have to do is cut off the IDE header, and suddenly you need a lot more than just a funky cable. -russ
If you buy an iOpener, and you comply with all the rules the company sets, how is that unethical. It might be unethical by your rules (in which case you would never consider buying one to modify), but it is obviously not unethical by their rules otherwise they would have prohibited it.
What's pathetic is when people exploit some hole in someone's marketing plan and then bitch and moan when they fix it.
It really bothers me when the company is that the company was essentially trying to do something good, making an easy, cheap way for people to get on the net. Unfortunately, the friendly, fair open source community that claims to just want a fair chance at distributing a 'better' product immediately hopped on the chance to exploit someone else's mistake.
It's just this kind of two-faced idealism that is why Linux and it's advocates will never be seen as anything other than what they are: just as bad as the 'faceless corporations' and capitalist machine that they claim to be better than.
shove it up your ass and die, you prissy motherfucker, don't call me names I don't deserve
This is the professionalism and reliability Linux zealots show corporate America. Try looking at yourself from the outside.
Look, I'm truly sorry for trying to open your closed mind with an alternate opinion. I didn't think it would hurt that much.
-lb
What's amazing to me is all these 'slashdotters' who are supposed to be soooo web savy all appeared to have ordered their i-openers from Circut City, (or went there in person and purchased a rain check), rather than ordering one from Netpliance's website. If you had ordered directly from Netpliance, it would be in your hands by now. This I know, as I ordered one on the 14th, (shipped on the 17th) for my inlaws, and it was delivered to their house on the 20th. (It appears to have been directly shipped by air from C.K.S. Intl Airport TW on 3/17 at 20:32 [Taiwan?] to Ankorage, Alaska (arriving 3/17 at 12:22), then to it's destination, according to the FedEx log. What were you trying to save by going to Circut City? Shipping? One months service fee, (22 bucks) if you canceled right away? Like I said, the unit I purchased went to my wife's parents, for whom this type of device/service is ideal. I did, however, tell them if they did not like the unit, I would gladly buy it back from them. (And if I get it, I won't hesitate a second in taking the thing apart.)
Any customer who truly believes they are only going to be charged a penny for a cellular phone are idiots. And since you managed to figure it out, I'm sure others will as well.
Try www.flat-panel.com for LCD screens and controllers.
Jeez, that's 'Anchorage'.
They make a generic thin client, but they also insist on being in the ISP business! Instead of selling the computer for $159 or even $199, they come up with a gimmick of trying to bundle overpriced internet service. What are they really selling here? Internet service, or a thin client? THEY DON'T HAVE FOCUS!
It is the little thin client that has captured the imagination of so many. Nobody talks about their ISP service. Why? because ISPs are commodity items and are heading toward a free model.
If they are going to survive, they'd better get smart. They have on their hands a breakthrough (inexpensive) thin client. It should be sold as a general-purpose home internet client that can hook up to any ISP, it could be a thin terminal for banks, travel agents, burger restaurants... it could be an inexpensive Java client. Put a disk in and it is an office computer for receptionists, customer service, etc. etc.
The machine, and others like it, have a lot of potential... but not as an upscale WebTV.
And since now that they realize a service agreement isn't adequate they are going to have to require customers to go into a legally binding contract so that canceling the service is *NOT LEGAL* and that what you really *BOUGHT* was the machine *AND* the internet service.
Wow. I don't mean to pick on you specifically but it seems like noone here on /. can spell "lose".
I's not just one person here and there, it every other one. I'm not much of a spelling person but this is a little weird. Wow. L-o-s-e!
Again:
L-o-s-e
Now say it in a sentence:
Loosen your tie.
L-o-s-e your keys.
If you don't have a map, you are:
a.)lost
b.)loost
c.)lawst
d.)laust
Answer:
b.)lost
of course they shouldn't trust us. Any reasonably intelligent consumer doesn't trust them!
Or do you believe companies' marketing material?
Yes, it certainly is a rather "closed" approach. However, since you bought the i-opener (remember: you don't license it!), how can they restrict the use?
If it invalidates the service contract, well, they may be free to cancel it immediately. Too bad...
Just like me pop says.
unauthorized modifications is claimed in the press release. How the heck can I make a mod to something I own and have it be considered unauthorised. I also like there I accept the terms button, yet no place on that page is the terms and conditions mentioned.
A "thief" is a moral accusation more then a legal one. Legally, perhaps the modification of IOpeners is 'stealing'. But personally, I don't have any problems sleeping at night. (Oh wait, I don't own an IOpener. Well *IF* I did, I certainly wouldn't feel it was immoral) And who are YOU to tell me what is moral and what is not?
uh...it shows up here...I'll be curious to see what the "fix" is..it can't be too hard to get around.,..
Is it stealing if I purchase one and never take it out of the box? You're reasoning would indicate that it would be. Hmmph.
Stay off the crack Johnny NT.
QUANTITY AND OEM SALES ONLY! NO RETAIL SALES!
So unless you want 100 of these flat panels, you're pretty much out of luck...
---
chahast at
pangaeaDOTdhsDOTorg
I ordered one on the 14th with no mention of this change in policy. I talked to the sales person and I asked specifically if I could cancel at anytime if I did not like the service and he said I could cancel at ANYTIME without obligation.
Appeal to the majority.
-
Just because Radio Shack does it, doesn't make it
right.
Small print, deceptive tacticts are bullshit.
You can't buy *anything* without someone trying
to fuck your eyes out anymore. Credit cards with
their teaser rates, phone companies with superscaler chaotic billing plans, ISP's who
offer "unlimited access."
You people can go cry me a fucking river. I'll
have NO sympathy for companies whose bottom
line depends on some sort of shell game.
"You get this phone for ONE PENNY!"
That's just assinine. Everything that has anything
to do with a company has to involve some sort
of mind game/twisting of the truth/outright lies. Any company that wishes to push
the envelope of morality/legality should at least
have the balls to get smacked down with some dignity when they get burnt playing these games. But no, they have wine and complain...
Oooooh..the BAD consumers are STEALING from us!!
Cry me a fucking river! What a joke!
Then apparently you weren't doing any embedded developing... or using QNX to it's full potential. How about transparent networking? I think that feature alone separates it from Un*x/Linux. The fact that you can fit an OS, windowing environment and web brower on a single floppy disk. Linux has no hope of doing that. In short, QNX is better than Linux for this sort of thing. The only difference between a Honda and a Ferarri is that it's relativley faster... so what's your point really?
cancel within the 2 days.... just cancel the service as soon as it ships they can't hold u to anything...it never says u agreed to the service for even a month u got it as a gift for your grandmother who lives out of state and her birthday is in 11 and 1/2 months u have to be able to open the case ....u aren't modifying it if it's bad... and u don't want to mess with it return it...full refund + shipping their loss....plus they have labor costs...customer service and their receivables dept. u have 30 days to return it....if a hack doesn't show up in 30 days return it
If they don't have enough subscribers to support their business now, how are they going to get them when they machines are being snapped up by non-subscribers?
No, leave the modem in them. Just use sockets for major chips (CPU, RAM, Flash) in the "Developer Version". We can connect Ethernet through USB. If it's already designed for PC/104 then we'll use that too. The first "Developer Version" can be what they're already offering, just allow us a little more reconfiguration at our own expense. [As developers create products, then they can sell an "OEM Version" with empty sockets also...]
So many stores have sold all their stock that they probably won't care if you walk away, as they'll just sell your units in a short time. Unless, of course, most of these sales have been to we "Developers" who supposedly are a small fraction of the sales...
quit sending them ideas..that's what their PAID marketing department is for.
columbia is 12 for 1 cent bmg is 12 for the price of one....plus u get 5 free if u use some elses...good idea a few years ago...........can u say mp3?
The company was not "essentially trying to do something good, making an easy, cheap way for people to get on the net.", this is gross misinterpretation. The company was trying to make a profit for itself by charging us ( not that I bought one ) ultimately more than the cost of the hardware and service to them combined. Profits for a company are ultimately the result of getting in return more than your cost for a product. How is this any different from what the "hackers" are doing? They are trying to get more benefit from the device than what the device cost them. Why is this okay for Corporations etc. but not for individuals?? Corporations everyday attempt to get more than what they paid for, and they are certainly not advers to exploiting loopholes to do it. In fact, it is the responsibility of the company to make as much profit as legally possible for their shareholders, owners etc.
.0001 cents!
I think the ultimate best solution so far is for them to offer a propietary machine with an obligation of contract to the service ( people have suggested that this will bring lawsuits, however every cellular service provider I've heard of has this type of deal on the initial purchase of a cell phone. Do you really think a Nokia 5100 series phone costs $0?? ) for people who want this, and a seperate appropriately priced version for people to make their own modifications to.
Many people are more attracted by the appearance and "cool-factor" of these devices than by the really low prices. I know I would pay a few hundred dollars for one if I could run linux on it.
I also object to your strong stereotyping of linux and open-source fans. Check around, and you'll discover that the majority of piracy, hacking, and blatant "stealing" occurs in MS land.
Why does the clearly inappropriate language and style of discussion of one individual get attributed to me? Obviously, as evidenced by the recent IPOs and take-overs and alliances occuring in the industry, corporate america does NOT share your narrow, close-minded, prejudiced view, thank [insert your chosen higher authority here].
Just my
3 Letters: IBM.
They don't make money from open source itself, but it helps their business model.
Nobody else on Earth makes parts that fit in a Volvo? I don't believe it, and if it's true, buying a Volvo would be colossally stupid.
Security Geeks thread and it has a quote from the Ken guy that hacked it first.
/.
Suprised that it took so long to get on
No it is not stealing, at least under the agreement I bought it under. When I bought it (from Circuit City), they did not ask me, tell me, or inform me in any way that I was obligated to sign up for the ISP service. Now, if you bought it through Netpliance direct, that is another story. But I did not steal one damn thing. I know Netpliance would have hoped I would sign up for the ISP, but hell, there are alot of things I hope for too. So get over this damn stealing kick. -Christian
It was $106, now $86 for the latest batch.
So now it's not so much that we're losing money as that we're not making as much as we wanted. Which wouldn't surprise you if you knew how greedy some of these guys are.
Problem is, when I ordered my I-opener, they _never_ informed me of a contact at all. They said the box works with their i-net service -that's it. I have agreed to NOTHING. They are fools if they think they can make poeple pay this service without a contract. At least Compuserve got it right (leaglly) with the $400 rebate and 3 year service contract on BB and CC PC's. If they try to charge me $21/month, I will simply refuse payment on my credit card -not my fault they are not business wise.
That's the thing that annoys me most about the linux community, things have to go their way, and they get whiny if they don't.
Well, allow me to be the first to welcome the Linux community to the real world.
-lb
Well... In there press release they claim "The Company believes the reported unauthorized reconfiguration of the i-opener Internet appliance has not had a material impact on its operating results or general product availability." Which seems to say to me that they aren't loosing any money when people modify these things. So, if they aren't loosing any money, then it seems they are just being a**holes.
Haven't you heard? Businesses generally aren't hep to the idea of letting any perceived threat to their revenue models remain unaddressed. Netpliance and countless others embrace some half-assed interpretation of the spirit of open source development as long as it doesn't hit them in the pocket.
./ Stop boring the hell out of me with these tired, redundant headlines.
I mean, what crackhead thought that Netpliance *wouldn't* flex its collective muscle once modifying their product became easy? C'mon people. C'mon
----
Government exists only to protect the haves from the have-nots. You say revolution? I scoff at you. The rich are just as involved in the political process as they always were. Therefore, there will be no revolution.
I'd buy a Linux version at $300. Or if there were QNX tools so I could add an Ethernet interface I'd have other uses -- but I have a DSL line and Ethernet, and I'm not interested in having this use the phone line. For that matter, if I put it in my car I'll want to interface it to other things also...
Personally I consider thier business model dishonest and downright sleezy, so I've no problem with buying one. I just hope CC hurries up and get's mine in, and that it's one built prior to the 20th of this month. Still it doesn't matter when it was built, I'll buy it, and I won't use thier service.
Somebody has screwed up! First, severe slowness. Then Internal Server Error. Now Slashdot is back up, alas with lots of glitches. Actual market value of a modifiable I-Opener (Score:1, ) Shouldn't they have comments, something like this? Actual market value of a modifiable I-Opener (Score:1, interesting) Additionally, the articles seem screwed. Links carry on through the whole post instead of ending. What happened, guys?
From http://fastolfe.net/misc/i-opener-faq.html#1.2:
* 1.4 How can something like this be this cheap?
We were initially thinking (quite correctly, IMO) they were making
quite a loss on this hardware (treating it as a "loss leader" for
their Internet service), but 3rd-hand statements from Netpliance
representatives seem to indicate that they are still making money
off of the units even at 99$. Their IPO prospectus, however, says
otherwise. The moral: Take everything you hear from IRC kiddies
with a grain of salt.
Next thing you know they'll be trying to prevent us from turning Natalie Portman into a statue.
For what it's worth, I "special ordered" 2 from Circuit City the day after the Slashdot article. I paid in full and have a receipt. I was not required to sign up for any service.
If they "cancel" my order or modify it in such a way that it no longer matches the item I purchased then I will (A) be extremely pissed, (B) return it if possible, and (C) very seriously consider joining a class-action.
We call ourselves "Open Source contributors" and we're known by what we create, not by what we "steal".
I don't care what thieves call themselves nowadays, but you're misrepresenting yourselves to the company and abusing an oversight in the companies marketing plans. I've seen several posts in the earlier discussions where people talked about how they lied to the people taking their orders over the phone. "Oh, this is a gift so I'm going to let the other person sign up for the service."
Of course, going through legal loopholes isn't wrong, in fact it's completely acceptable. That's why everyone here is such fans of the artificial monopolies created by patents, right?
Oh wait..that's right, they're only good if they benefit you.
Slashdot: News for Hypocrites, Cheating Big Corporations.
-lb
The following was sent to their request for feedback address.
Dear feedback reader,
First of all let me congratulate you on the development of such a
fine product as the i-opener. You seem to have included all the right
features and aesthetically pleasing necessities to have a real winner. Of
all the 'net appliances that have been hyped and marketed in the past 18
months, I would say yours is probably the best value, and most likely to
pass the 'wife test' (i.e. "Would my wife let me put one of these in the
living room?") In fact, I was on my way to buying one when I read the
following notice:
By purchasing the i-opener you are agreeing to use the i-opener Internet
service. The fee is $21.95 a month and will be billed approximately 2 days
after the i-opener is shipped to you.
i-opener Internet appliances shipped after March 20, 2000 can no longer be
reconfigured in the manner described in recent reports. Modification of
the i-opener in any way is in violation of our terms and conditions.
Reading this caused me to lose a great amount of respect for your
organization, especially after having read your statement at
http://www.netpliance.com/devcorner/
about supporting and believing in Open Source Development.
You must certainly know that anyone who belives in Open Source
Development could not ever willingly buy hardware or a hardware product
whose terms of sale restrict my ability and right to take the thing apart
and modify it to fit _my_ life (i.e. not just some consumer profile to be
marketed to, expected to stay on the couch until the next great consumer
item is offered to me in return for my hard earned money)
I am very interested in your statement that you are "...looking
into providing an open hardware package for the developer community."
Only if buying such a package does not restrict my individual freedom to
take things apart and put them back together will I consider buying one.
You must take into consideration the following:
a) If you claim to belive in Open Source Development without
walking the walk, you will soon have no customers at all. This
is one of the reasons Open Source works. Therefore, your
licensing and purchase restrictions on the current i-Opener
implementation have pretty much put you out of the running for
any new-economy consumer purchases.
b) It is simply ludicrous to require a hardware purchaser to
specifically not modify the hardware. Who would buy a car if
the hood was welded shut? This is not an inaccurate analogy.
I would buy an i-Opener simply for the chance to modify it and
run Linux on it. But if you wish to restrict my freedom to
modify something I have bought, you will be looking for a
different type of customer. I propose to you that if you were
to truly embrace Open Source not just at the software level, but
hardware too, you would create a fantastically mutually beneficial
relationship between yourself and the customers who can best help
you develop a good product.
I fully understand that your economic modelling of how the
i-Opener would be sold at an apparant loss and revenue gained through
monthly internet service fees, but all this says to me is that your
financial modelling needs work. If you require a purchaser to buy an
i-Opener at price $x and then to pay $21.95 monthly for $y months, you
have forced them into an illegal contract. You are selling hardware, not
a service that can not be decoupled from the hardware. If I buy an
i-Opener, how can you legally force me to pay for internet service?!?
What if I have no desire for your internet service, but like the i-Opener?
What if I have no phone line? Your marketing tactics would seem to be
somewhat presumptious.
I hope you will come to realize the inherent conflict between your
statements regarding open source development and your purchasing
requirements. A company can not hope to buy into Open Source half-assed
and think that it will help them. Your organization will sooner die
staked to the fence you attempt to sit on. Please reconsider your
purchasing policies and make some good faith effort at a more
consumer-friendly financial revenue plan.
A computer without Microsoft is like ice cream without ketchup.
I agree with your point about the "service" agreement, but I disagree about the use of the term "internet appliance". IMHO the hardware underneath the tool is nearly irrelevant. All the specific hardware does is facilitate carrying out the tasks a thing is designed for. How you package and actually USE that hardware determines what you call it.
If I broke my iopener and stuck little rubber feet on it, then it would be a "doorstop", not "still an x86 pc" albeit broken.
Likewise, I style myself as a "human" rather than a watery sack of proteins and other stuff. Although a cat might be made of the same basic parts (but you're both mammals!), there is a relatively clear distinction between people and cats.
I think I've stretched this as far off topic as possible... Carry on.
Haven't they heard? Open source helps your business, it doesn't hurt it. This is tantamount to releasing a press statement that says "Your attention please. We will now be shooting ourselves in the foot."
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
Netpliance is a rather odd name. "Internet Appliance" is a rather odd description. At the end of the day, it's still an x86 pc and always will be, Netpliance aren't gonna win by hiding under their "it's not modifiable" agenda. And, has anyone got one of these "unmodifiable" ones? I would think it could be easy to swap out the BIOS chip. If by "buying" one you are forced to use the service, shouldn't it be called a hire-purchase agreement? This seems a very hasty and un-tactful move on their part.
There's no reason to be upset, just because the company is defending itself against the tree-hugging liberal linux fans that like to find a way around the system doesn't mean you should complain to the company.
It's their product, and they can do with it what they like. In fact, I applaud their decision to not give into the Linux bandwagon. A less company probably would have embraced the Linux fans and advertised how much those crazy linux hackers love their hardware.
I'm glad to see some companies still have their pride.
-lb
Ooooo. So it's $119. They didn't change the agreement to add an x months service committment.
They are selling on eBay in the $177-$290 range. Like the Apex DVD player, people are making money speculating on them. Not bad ... seems you can get a fast 100-200% profit on the secondary market, if you can get your hands on one. If I had purchased one in order to use it with their internet service, like they intended, I'd be awfully tempted to sell my "hackable" box on eBay and buy an "unhackable" box for myself at the original price.
Though I've been much too lazy to pick up the phone and order one, the idea of a really small PC had me intrigued. I've had a few things flying through my head where something like this would fit the bill. So, has anyone seen something else that could fit the bill? I know I've come across some real small motherboards, but they often wanted more than what I paid for my Athlon motherboard. :) I'm just not that dedicated to it.
:) A laptop is just even more expensive. A kiosk style thing with a TV out is really what I want. This IOpener would have been fun, let me spend several hours monkeying with it. But since it's now out, what's left?
On another note, are any of those webtop things available yet? I've seen a few mentioned (even before the Transmeta announcement), but can't see any sign of them actually being sold. I hate having to get off the couch to see what's new on Slashdot.
Check out compgeeks.
If this were true then Sony would actually be encouraging sales of Bleem because it means there is another person out there with reason to buy the overpriced games and Sony wouldn't have to sell a loss leader console in the first place.
Bleem is effectively a free console for Sony, no loss, and still many money-making license fees from all the games the Bleem user purchases.
Please read the entire thread. I don't agree with the previous person's argument, which is why I began with the devil's advocate position "if this were true...". Not A -> Not B, B, therefore A.
It was non-sensical of the previous person to say that Sony had sued Bleem because Bleem prevents Sony from losing money on each console sale. Sony would have to be stupid to do that.
It's clear that Sony sued Bleem for other reasons than the one the previous person suggested. I'm not willing to delve into pet theories though: it is pure conjecture on the theorists part.
They weren't trying to "trick" anyone. You can go to Radioshack and buy a cellphone for a penny. You could probably do something rather creative with that cellphone if it wasn't for the contract you had to sign to use their service.
The only difference here was that they didn't make people sign the contract. They didn't think that someone would come up with a way to use the machine without them.
Yawn.
As the other respondant said, a contract isn't legally binding unless both parties agree to the conditions. If Circuit City doesn't mention that I have a legal obligation to subscribe, then the fault isn't mine.
Oh, and for what it's worth, you might try stowing your preconceptions. I'm hardly a kid, own a car and a house, and understand the way the world works as well as the next guy. That doesn't change the way that contract law works.
Since Netpliance made their agreement known, I'd never buy an I-Opener without subscribing to their service. Before, however, it was pretty much an optional thing. In fact, weren't their own salespeople ignoring the service subscription issue?
As I said:
Theft, indeed!
(copy of my email to them)
Well I figured some response was inevitable... but trying to prevent smartening up your dumbed-down appliance is definitely the wrong one. Slashdot put it well: "This is somewhat ironic, as their developer's corner page says 'Netpliance believes in open source development.'" etc. I hate these backhanded, suboptimal responses that are so typical of big companies and indicate a basically sour temperament.
You could offer them at a different price for people who don't want to buy the ISP service, like the cellular telephone retailers do. I think that's the best solution.
Anyway I want one with a touchscreen. If you could make one like the existing product, with this addition, and let me do what I want with it, for a few hundred bucks, I might buy one or several.
Another issue is your unethical environmental stance... you are doing your darndest to make sure it's a single-purpose device. And then you will probably go out of business within a few years, or move on to something else and no longer offer support. So what's supposed to happen to the devices then? You think it's OK to simply let them get tossed into the landfill? you provide no alternative to that. I try very hard not to buy into all the planned obsolescence schemes because I don't believe in them.
Ah, but the problem is, no one in this scenario signed any sort of contract. Certainly, no one at Circuit City signed any! Also, on the web orders (prior to this week) there was no indication of terms of service, requirement to buy the ISP, *nothing*. I ordered a piece of hardware. Now they are not selling me that hardware.
I'm getting my money back unless I see clearly that they are just blowing smoke out their ass and the units have not been changed.
My order was placed on 3/14. Their site says they are "still processing" it. I have also heard from Customer Service that my unit *will* be modded to be unhackable.
I'm pretty pissed, to say the least.
It's a strange world -- let's keep it that way
If you are selling tons of these things to the Linux community, why change it so it cant be modified.. That will make the sales of these machines come to an almost halt. Just my opinion..
take a look at http://www.linux-hacker.net, there's no more site!!!
--
BeDevId 15453
Download BeOS R5 Lite free!
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
It's almost like if I didn't buy an i-Opener but wanted to subscribe to the service using my own hardware.
Hardly a business model buster.
I was wondering when someone else was going to realize that all that cross-wiring of the cable was unnecessary : )
They probably are old laptop motherboards with the socket soldered to the "wrong" side at the factory for easier access.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
This seams to be a good story to post this question in.
What are good, $cheap, low-profile solutions for putting X-term/Linux/FreeBSD systems in the kitchen/Living Room/Bathroom/Garage?
I bought a DEC Multia 166 for $30 (with no peripherals), but after buying parity ram, scsi disks, floppies, monitor, scsi cdrom etc... It's not a low-cost solution.
I hadn't gotten an order in, but the i-opener seemed to be exactly what I was looking for.
Other than using old 386/486 boxes, what are the low-cost, and low-profile solutions available?
Stephen L. Palmer
---
Here is the result of your Slashdot Purity Test.
You answered "yes" to 86 of 200 questions, making you 57.0%
I don't believe this. All that free publicity and they freak-out and get fascist about it? If I was Netpliance, I'd make a second line just for the iopener scene. My munny ain't green enough for 'em, eh???
I would think that the tide of cancelled orders, mine included, might be interesting to them... maybe not. It's still kind of an interesting box, if underpowered.
I really don't see any point for normal people to buy one of these. When they find out they can't store their porn and they can't play Diablo II on it, what's the selling point? Whatever happened to marketing to the home electronics hobbyist???
Your logic is quite incorrect. They sold the hardware to people at what they thought was an acceptable loss... it doesn't matter that they planned on covering this hardware loss with subscription costs. When you make a loss-leader sale this is the risk you take. If you purchased the hardware, you purchased it, period. The only thing they can do is not honor your warrenty if you make modifications.F /...
---
Openstep/NeXTSTEP/Solaris/FreeBSD/Linux/ultrix/OS
--- I do not moderate.
"You can ONLY buy parts for a Volvo from a Volvo dealer."
Body parts, and things that aren't normally worn by use, maybe.
But there are a lot of Bosch parts in your volvo.
You don't think you can get an entire aftermaket
exhaust for your 240? Under the impression that
a well-stocked Euro auto parts store doesn't have
repair parts? Or that Volvo is unique among car makers and does not use any parts that from outside vendors and not in volvo factories?
Where did you get your information? Your assertion is not true, not even in Sweden.
Now, perhaps I've misuderstood you.
Did you mean "You cannot buy FORD parts from a Volvo Dealer" or did you mean "You cannot buy Volvo parts anywhere besides a Volvo dealer?"
And, except for the fact that the parts counter has a pc on in, and the database of the parts probably runs on a unix box, what does this have
to do with the PC market?
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
1. Charge back on credit card._ and_Investment/
2. File complaint with attorneys office of this bait and switch tactic.
3. Report them to B&B
4. Offer to send it back IF they pay fedex to pick it up.
??? 5. Sue in small claims court. (Hey, I'm salary, take a day off work) (:
??? 6. Post experiences on Montleyfool then go down the list on
http://dir.yahoo.com/Business_and_Economy/Finance
Well ok, just really 1,3, and 4.
-IronWolve-
Interesting how things turn around again and again
and again.
I've got two of these on special order from
Circuit City and I don't know about anyone else,
but when I paid in advance for them, I don't
remember a contract being presented to me to be
signed as a basis for buying this device.
In the advertisement at Circuit City, I don't see
ANY references to a "must sign up for service to
own this device".
When I got my Celphone, I _bought_ a cel phone,
then called in to activate it. I could have
modified the cel phone and what? Voided my
warranty and that would have been it.
I don't think it is immoral or aethical to buy
a $99 device and not sign up for the service.
That's the deal I saw at Circuit City and that's
the product that I'm buying. A piece of hardware.
If I had purchased the device from Netpliance
directly, then yes, I would most likely be bound
to them for the service as per their contract
agreements.
But not from Circuit City. When I buy an
"appliance", which is what this device is
advertised as, I owe nothing to any company except
perhaps the electric and water companies for
their "service". But I could just as well work
out another means of using that dishwasher or
microwave or room heater by running it off of
solar power. Is the power company loosing out in
that case? If I catch rainwater and pipe it into
my dishwasher, am I short changing the water
companies?
Probably.
So when I go about making cute modifications to
the I-Opener to use an alternative power-source,
an alternative OS, an alternative means of data
storage, and an alternative means of connectivity,
is Netpliance getting short changed?
Probably.
But it isn't illegal. I'm not bypassing any form
of encrpytion or copy protection system. I'm not
bound by a contract to use their service. Nor
is the ownership of their product in anyway tied
to subscription to their service.
So how do they plan on enforcing their new
contracts on the pre-orders which have already
been paid in advance at all the Circuit Cities?
There is already a transaction which is in
progress between buyer and Circuit City which has
nothing to do with Netpliance save the fact that
they are the people supplying the machines. If
they decide to change anything to the machines
and terms of use/sale contracts, it is between
them and Circuit City, not the buyers(unless you
bought the machine online).
I agree with what another poster said. If the
machine comes in and is a different model from the
one I ordered, I will refuse the package and ask
for a refund.
I mean, if you pre-ordered and paid in advance
for a "Series A10" player of some kind which comes
with an S-VHS output so you can hook it up to your
computer, but when you drop by to pick up the
machine, they hand you a "Series A10b" which they
claim is what they got and is the same, but is
missing the S-VHS output, are you going to meekly
accept this as another "oh well, that's how it goes"?
I hope not. And I certainly hope the folks out
there who have been recieving their I-Openers
are recording the Model and Serial numbers from
their I-Openers so that other people who are
buying the machines with pre-paid dollars can
verify (without opening the machine up) whether
they fall into the "pre-mod" or "post-mod"
category so they can get their money back if the
machine isn't what people paid for.
Just a few cents in the bucket.
(On the other hand, I agree also that I would
easily go for a $200 machine which is like the
I-Opener and runs Linux or any choice OS. I hope
someone picks up on this and runs with the idea.)
- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.
- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.
This article at news.com claims the manufacturing costs are closer to $300-$400.
ouch
signal, noise, to me it's all the same.
In Oregon and California, courts have ruled that such penalty contracts are unenforceable.
These contracts are not illegal in CA -- all cell phone companies and many ISPs use them. The problem with the MSN deal was that it was structured as an equipment purchase loan rather than a standard service contract. Why? Who knows.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
They HAVE NOT rendered the unit un-modifyable. It is still the same unit. also, they dont make you sign a 1-2 year agreement so you can cancel the service in that month.
PLEASE!!!!! do some work on stories before posting them. If a newspaper just posted a story before actually checking sources/other news points we'd be hearing about 3 headed baby's and elvis sightings!
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
If they used QNX for the OS, then they could just as easily use Linux. That would eliminate license fees and spur development by the Linux community. It would be a mutually beneficial relationship. Sell the present version to consumers, and a higher-end model w/o ISP to hackers. I've seen a few marketable ideas in comments in the I-Opener articles. Outfit them with ethernet as x-terminals and they'd be attractive to corporate IT depts. They could also make cheap kiosks. IMHO they should hire the guy that came up with this hack.
*Does* WebTV, or DirectTV, require you to subscribe to their service?
The whole reason Netpliance is having trouble, is that people are findnig uses for their hardware, outside of the montly subscription.
Have similar hacks come out for WebTV, or DirectTV, that make the hardware very attractive and usable, without the content subscription?
ian: go cancel your raincheck man. bling bling!
Hmmm... I guess my best bet is to find out the last date on which known hackable i-openers were shipped, and check mine against that. Or I could just gamble my $99 that I can get it to work, and give up on any warranty expectations.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
There's also no contract if you buy it at Circuit City. They couldn't care less what you do with it once it leaves their store.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Well, for one thing, I wanted to actually look at the device before ordering one, so I went over to CC after work to check it out, and it was easier to just order it there. I expected that it would be back-ordered from Netpliance too, but I'm glad that you were able to get one quickly.
Also, by ordering through CC I've avoided (I hope) dealing with the Netpliance 'net service.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
I've seen the screen at Circuit City, and it's not one of the newest active flat-screen monitors. It's more like an older laptop LCD display - you have to be more-or-less directly in front of the screen to read it, and the video is blurry if you move the mouse around quickly, scroll quickly, etc. The display is definitely not as good as the display you would get if you bought a new laptop today, for example. I don't think the screen is any relative of the nice $1500 flat-panel displays (which I am really interested in too, since my 19" HP monitor takes up ~6 square feet of desktop!).
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Loss leading is an inherently risky business practice; It can also pay off big. I'm sure the manufacturer was aware of this when they began doing it.
Playing poker, or any game, for money, when you know that you are a very good player, is just as much a rip-off. The manufacturer knew they were playing the game of the market. I don't see how winning a hand against them is any more wrong than winning a hand in a card game.
I-opener is competing with companies such as PeoplePC, Gateway, and all the other plug-n-surf, monthly payment, isp-contract/one-isp companies. This loss-lead is merely a way to divert sales to themselves from the other companies. If people find a way to take advantage of it, it'll teach I-opener to modify their business practice, thereby increasing their marketplace fitness.
(Wow, I actually convinced myself with this argument.)
Why not help them figure out the right way to run Linux on the box? Look, they'll even pay you to do so. Who would have thought :)
Sony and Nintendo are able to offer their consoles at reasonable prices by selling them at a loss, and making up for it in licensing fees from game vendors. Yes, some maniacal multi-billionaire (you listening Billy?) could buy millions of the systems, then destroy them or play only unlicensed games, and this would really hurt Sonr or Nintendo. Of course, the bulk of the people aren't doing this, so neither company has to worry and thus there are no restrictions similar to those imposed by Netpliance. Can you imagine buying your Playstation and signing an agreement saying you will continue to use it and purchase games monthly for the next two years? Of course on the other hand we have companies such as BMG that do just that. Sure, you get 10 CDs for 1 cent, but then you have to buy 7 more during the next year at retail price. At least in that case you know what you're getting into.
Well, I just got off the phone with my house, and it seems my I-Opener arrived today. I ordered it the day the story broke (last monday?) and it FINALLY arrived... Now, I understand that people buying now have to click on the 'I Agree' Button, but said button was never there when I ordered mine.. Nor did I sign/agree to their terms at that time.. .. as far as I can tell, that machine sitting in it's pretty little cardboard box waiting for me at home... is *mine*.... Big computer show here in town this weekend, picking up the required supplies, and getting a nice little linux box out of the deal.
I-Opener's model is based on selling the internet service no on selling hardware so I don't see what's so bad about making people take the hardware as is and not modifying it. This really has nothing to do with OpenSource. I-Opener made a mistake by not requiring buyers of the hardware to sign up and now they're fixing it. Expecting them to keep selling hardware for 99 or whatever the price was would be like expecting Sun to keep selling E10Ks for 3000 after they made a mistake and sold a few at that price. It was good deal while it lasted but to expect to them to keep doing it is ludicrous
"When you sit with a nice girl for two hours, it seems like two minutes. When you sit on a hot stove for two minutes, it
This afternoon I went to our locak Circuit City to bye four I-Openers. When I told the sales man that I wanted to bye four he told me that he could not sale them to me. I find this kind of questionable. His reason was that they had received an email about this or something. Needless to say Circuit City will not be getting any buisness from me.
I encourage you to speak for yourself. Nobody here said that Open Source was somehow about cheating people. What I said was that Open Source embodies the desire to independently create and modify technologies so that they more closely resemble the individual's needs and expectations. Opening the source code of software is one of the easiest and most direct ways of achieving that freedom, and we encourage individuals and organizations to participate so that everyone can enjoy the benefits of said freedom.
Instead of interjecting your own prejudicial slant with phrases like "cracking cases" and "reverse engineering proprietary products" -- both of which refer to activities I did not, and never will, promote -- why not read what I actually wrote? Responding honestly to others is the first step toward thinking for yourself.
MJP
Don't try that "protecting the children" shit you people use to keep the tits and bad words off my TV. --Seanbaby
And with no mention of a contract, so that gets me out of that, but as for the hardware that's another matter. Well we'll see what modifications they throw on the little i-opener I get. My guess is this is just a stop-gap measure (scare people with words) until they can actually "fix" the hardware so no one can mess with it. If not I'll tell CC that I didn't like it and get my money back, or just keep it around for a footrest. :)
> The super-advanced 3D graphics chips in the PlayStation are cost way more than the selling price, but Sony makes it up in license fees for the games.
>Hence why Sony is attacking Bleem so ferociously
Um, assuming people aren't just outright pirating games, doesn't bleem mean that they aren't buying the underly-prices hardware and still buying the overly-priced games?
Sony has plenty of reason to be annoyed if bleem steals sales of Playstations (whether the makers of bleem are acting illegally or not is not my point), but I think your logic is backwards, since according to your statement, they lose money on the consoles but make it up on the games.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
I wonder if they can refuse to let me take it away without signing up for the service?
I have no doubt that they would argue that your deposit constituted a pledge on your part to purchase the product, and not a down payment on the product; the distinction is important. In the case of it being a pledge, you have no rights other than to your money back if they choose not to supply the equipment to you. In the case of a down payment, the ground is a bit murky, although I suspect that they would say that the product you requested is no longer available in the form you requested it in and just offer you your money back.
Either way, you have no rights unless they agreed, in writing, to supply the (exactly specified) equipment come hell or high water, and which company would be foolish enough to do that?
Even if you decide to take them to court, you stand no chance of winning. The devices were clearly sold to be used under certain terms and conditions, be they implicit or explicit. Regardless of what the licence said, you'd lose.
My advice - Try your luck, but don't complain if they say "new agreement or nothing".
Nick.
Nokia did not publish the digital data protocol, but fortunately people have figured it out -- but even without that, I could connect an analog modem to the headset jack so I knew I could get mobile data through. In my case, I got rid of my old Motorola phone because they're not open enough and they did get me to buy a new one.
Don't confuse cost and cost of goods sold. 106.67 is parts & labor to build the box; there are many other costs you can legitimately ascribe to the box that they'll need to recover to make any money. But as noted, they still should let you hack it to your hearts content if you pay them their subscription fee...
Of course I don't speak for my employer. My employer doesn't speak for me, either.
I have been perusing this thread briefly, and I'm astonished at how outraged some people appear to be at Netappliance's decision: I think they ought to take one step back at look at this from a more rational perspective:
The quoted $99 price is obviously a massive loss-leader, as I'm sure is the higher $199 price that they 'reduced' from. This is trivially obvious to anyone who has ever bought PC components (flat panel displays are not cheap; even mediocre quality 10" 800x600 versions). Even deep bulk discounts have to be played off against the system integration costs. In fact, even Netappliance acknowledge this fact in their S-1 filing with the SEC (page 3, under Risk Factors).
The business model is familiar: sell for a loss (or, indeed give it away), and then recoup from the recurring cost of the service. This model is at least as old as the disposable razor-blade, and will be familiar to many who read this forum as the same one used to sell cellular telephones, AOL (400 free hours! etc....), and so on.
So what's the problem? Well, so far as I can see, there are really two objections here, which I'd characterise as 'Naive' and 'Not So Naive'.
The Naive objection
The 'Naive' objection is 'I paid $100 for this, I own it, and if I don't want to use their internet service, I don't see why I should have to pay for it'. Usually, these objections include appeals to the illegality of the action. This is in line with the razor-blade model, where Gillette doesn't mind too much if you buy a single Sensor Excel razor and never buy another blade.
Of course, it's not illegal effectively to bundle a service contract with a purchase (at least, not in my jurisdiction, and I'm pretty certain it isn't in the USA either). If, at the time of purchase, you sign up for a years' worth of their ISP service at $21.95 a month, you've entered (of your own free will) a perfectly legally binding contract. This is the cellular phone model: if you don't pay for your service contract, Netpliance will chase you in the courts, and you will lose.
Summary: the Naive objector understands the razor business model, but not the cellular phone model.
The Not So Naive objection
The 'Not So Naive' objection is 'I paid my $99 for this, so I own the box. I'm quite happy to pay a few hundred bucks over the course of the year in ISP charges, it still works out a good deal, and it's a neat toy! Why would they want to stop me throwing NetBSD on it?'.
The reason why Netpliance don't want you to buy the box and not use their service is more subtle. Their business model doesn't just depend on recurring subscriptions (blades, airtime...) but also on their ability to attract advertisers, sponsors and other value-added services. Their ability to do this is predicated upon the ability to establish a large user base for their service.
As such, they're going to need to demonstrate that supporting their company is going to result in a significant number of imprints for their advertisers and so on. In their S-1 filing, they acknowledge that their success will depend almost entirely on branding and high-quality content.
Summary: the 'Not So Naive' objector hasn't read Netpliance's business plan...
What does this all add up to? Well, it's all quite obvious: Netpliance doesn't want you just to buy an i-Opener, they want you to use it, and with their services. If the product, as was previously shipping, was going to compromise their business model in some way (and the weight of the evidence here is that it probably was!) then they have a common-sense responsibility to emend it.
Yes, it sucks that we can't have our cake and eat it, but I don't think it's fair to rag on Netpliance for doing right by their shareholders. If I were them, I would do the same thing.
Potentially Interesting Resources:
-- O improbe amor, quid non mortalia pectora cogis!
I stand corrected.
Preferential Voting: easy as 1-2-3
Um, so you violate their terms and conditions? What can they do, turn off your access to their ISP service? Woo.
Loss leader. So your $100 * 1000 - ($350 * 1000) = -$250,000. Yeah that's how I want to run my business.
They don't need to call award to make a change to their BIOS. Award basically "sells" a BIOS kit to the manufacturer. The manufacturer then select which options are appriopriate, writes whatever custom code is necessary and types 'make'. Then sends Award a check for each unit sold.
If the threat of being TOSed off the service is the best they can do they better think again. Getting TOSed would actually be considered a good thing. You are then free from the service. No more 21.95/mo payments. They could require someone buying a new unit to sign up for 3 years of service. This raises an interesting question. I was wondering what does MSN, Compuserve do if you violate TOS but you have a 3 year contract? Do you prepay? I didn't think this was the case. Do they disconnect you and continue to charge you every month? Sounds illegal to get charged for a service you no longer get access to. Do they send you a bill for the remaining amount of time on the contract? This would be the most likely. If you are a few months in to your service and they throw you out for p0rn, wareZ, decss or whatever I suspect that in some states it would be within their right to not only terminate the account, but also charge you a bill for say $21/mo * 30months or $630!!!!
Actually, you probably read it as he intended it to be read. But technically, and following correct rules of grammar, you have to interpret "Unless surrounded by a steel case, anyone with tools can modify this oh-so-cool appliance" as "Unless the user is himself put into a steel case, he can modify the appliance". Of course once in the steel cage, he might be able to use his tools to get out, but that's a different problem.
Funny thing, that grammar is. Anyone remember when JFK called himself a jelly donut instead of a native of Berlin? Anyone?
"If one is really a superior person, the fact is likely to leak out without too much assistance" -- John Andrew Holmes
Didn't MSN offer a big rebate on new PCs if the buyers also signed up for their service? When they found out that their agreement didn't preclude cancelling the service, they fixed that bug in their business plan.
or he could wait until others find out if it is hackable (befor the 14 day thing is up) and then make the decision based on their expirences....
john
-- john
Perhaps they can deny maintenance, warranty or access to their ISP, but that's it
If they want to retain control over their hardware, use this business model:
ISP signup cost: $100 (Includes installation and free(*) I-opener terminal)
Monthly fee: $29.99
(* includes $2 IO-pener rental fee)
---
Apparently you don't appear to be getting the idea that the $99 price of the box is a loss leader.
The whole point of a "loss leader" is that it's something priced below cost as "bait" for people to spend more with the same company.
But if a smart customer just takes the "bait" then it's just tough on the company.
There are two things they can do. First is to restrict number of items per customer. Second is to price the product at a profit then offer a discount if bough with some other product/service. Like mobile phone companies have been doing for years.
I just wrote them an email saying: You either sell the thing for $99 or you don't! Now what's your price WITHOUT your crappy internet service? Are they really dumb enough to throw away the easy sale of 3,000 units?
Do they actually make the unit, if not it's probably worthwhile finding out who does...
While they certainly cannot stop people from tinkering, they can make it damned difficult
However this is likely to push the price up and make the units more difficult/expensive to service.
t wasn't that cool for them. I don't care how you TRY to justify it, but it is stealing their hardware.
No the hardware was sold to the customer. The customer has every right to do whatever they like with the hardware they have bought and paid for.
The customer has no duty, legal, moral, whatever to make sure that the seller has a sound business model. That is the sole responsibility of the seller.
When you make a loss-leader sale this is the risk you take.
The way a loss-leader works is that the low price encourages customers to buy something from a specific supplier, who then consider it less hassle to use the same supplier for other goods and services.
However any supplier doing this had better beware that some customers are smart enough to "cherry pick" loss leaders. Thus the smarter suppliers use concepts like "only x per customer", bundling with some other product/service, etc.
If you try to weasel your way out of the contract, they can always shut off the phone service, and usually do. And a cell phone that won't send or recieve phone calls is essentially an expensive plastic paperweight.
Depends if there is any situation where running what ammounts to a cellular PBX works out cheaper than a wired one
*applause*
Well said, and very correct. That is the one problem I've noticed a lot of these days. People go for something that they can get away with, and suddenly when they can't, they get pissed. It's like the people speed, then get pissed at the cop when they're pulled over - if you weren't speeding in the first place you wouldn't have a ticket!
Back on topic, Netpliance has every right to lock-out cheapskates from their product. If you don't like it - don't bitch, use something else.
Alternatively, you could sell the thing for one price, and kick back a "rebate" after being on the service for a period of time. Same difference.
I wonder if anyone has figured out what the cost basis on these boxen are? You got a 10 inch LCD display, and a very integrated motherboard, some ram, a Winchip. Plastic skins, packaging. Maybe $250 all told in large volumes?
Everyone will start to cheer when you put on your sailin' shoes.
I use it all the time, because of the stupid layout of the PC keyboard... I find it easier to use the control key than the actual ESC key.
"Why should I be content to simply live in this world, when I, as a human being, can CREATE it?" - Oertel
about the only thing that's going to happen here is a shareholder lawsuit after netpliance goes out of business. it's pretty clear that they put some positive spin on the hack before the IPO so they could get their money. there's no way that their business plan is going to work. the things were sitting on the shelves before the hack & if their "hardware mods" are effective, they're going to be sitting there again. there is nothing compelling about their business plan. there is nothing compelling about sitting in front of a 10" DSTN screen when i can sit in front of my 35" web tv (web & TV integration is a necessity for anything like these internet appliances to work) their best hope is to get bought up by AOL or somebody who has a chance of making something like this work.
>Companies sell their souls^H^H^H^H^Hstocks to get a very useful cash infusion, ....
... they take pride that they are following a long-term plan in building a name/goodwill. Do some research on internet companies and you find that they are the opposite of what you think that is evil about the stock market.
>order to maximize the all-important quarterly earnings report
>If the company had bigger plans, or (heavens forfend!) long-term plans, well, tough shit
This would be true, up to the last 10 years.
Many, many internet companies have gotten massive amounts of cash and terrible quarterly results. I'm talking about millions of dollars in losses each quarter for the past couple of years. Amazon is just one of many examples. Yet they are not getting attacked for their quarterly results,
Better yet, you should show your support for their long-term plans by going out and buying some of their stocks.
Actions speak louder than words.
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
>No one cares about Amazon's bottom line so long
> as there are more suckers willing to join in at
> the bottom of the pyramid.
This is the wrong way to think about these things. If everyone thought about it as "I want to be increadible rich to make my neighbours envious next week." then yes, this is the way to think about it. But you seem to want some long-term, value based investment. The way to think about this is not the price of Amazon next week or next month, its next decade.
>But what happens when Amazon's stock falls?
Well it hasn't fallen, but its hasn't gone anywhere for the past year. Thats just as bad to the short-term trader.
>Is that a long-term business strategy? How many companies are getting away with that kind of strategy outside the world of e-commerce?
(about brand-name/goodwill) Actually, almost every blue-chip company out there. e.g. Proctor & Gamble, Honda, Coke-Coca, Washinton Post, CNN, MTV, Gucci, all major banks. Companies either have low prices/quick turnover or a brandname. They even consider it an accounting item, listed under Goodwill.
>I don't know what Amazon's plan really is, though I could easily offer some cynical guesses.
You could look it up easily on many financial websites....
>That's why I'm earning a comfortable living by working for wages rather than trying to strike it rich by joining in a destructive scam.
Thats ok, but my point is that in the wide world of the "stock market" you can find a stock which suits your requirements. Don't paint every company/stock with the same brush.
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
I ordered my i-opener on the 20th, and am still waiting for the order to get finished "processing". According to Netpliance, any unit shipped after the 20th will be a modified unit that is unhackable. The big question is, how have they modified it?
No customer service rep is talking. The general thought is that they have somehow sealed the case so that it isn't as easy to get into and attach an ide drive. There are *many* views about this. But I did hear that a sales rep said they haven't changed the unit at all.. just the company policies.
Still, considering the huge backlog on orders, I tend to think they must have done *something* to it besides modifying paperwork.
The thing is, if they mess up the ide header, how will they fix the machine when it's sent in for repair? The most reasonable use of the ide port is to hook up a drive with diag tools. This would also be the only way for them to reflash the bios. Well, short of removing it and replacing it, that is.
That might've worked. As might selling the unit at full markup to people who want it as a Linux X-terminal ($500 maybe?).
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
This is pretty much the same computer, though probably a more recent version.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
For 200% PROFIT, I'd be willing to deal with a little 'hassle'. (-;
I did a quick search on EBay for I-Opener, and turned up a bunch of auctions. The I-Opener hardware might not be making the good folks at NetAppliance a ton of money, but this guy seems to be cashing in.
How much did they lose from their involvement in DIVX anyway, It was at least $207M as of their last company Annual Report.
I'm starting to think that it's time to start a complete Open Source community boycott of Circuit City.
Do they even sell boxed versions of Linux in the computer sections of their stores? I'm sure that they don't sell any systems that don't already have Windows pre-installed.
I expect that next they will start selling radios & TV's that can only play CC approved stations, and washing machines that require CC approved detergent.
Work for Change & GET PAID!
Remember the great deals one could get in California, with the MSDN bundling with a computer? Microsoft didn't bother trying to make the internet service legally bound to the computer, because they knew it was so blatantly against California law,
IANAL
however, the problem that MS had in California and Oregon is that they were tying it to a loan. It was a very strange way to configure the deal that other ISP/PC bundles didn't use.
Maybe there is a seperate law against tying a hardware purchase to a subcription, but it must have loopholes, how else would DirectTV, WebTV, and even Record/Book-of-the-month clubs do business in states with such laws.
Work for Change & GET PAID!
Man, the two Circuit City's in Delaware have them on back order. Like a dumbass I ordered one before reading about they're press release. From the way the quickie press release looks, it looks like they are only gonna force the 2 year commitment on those who purchase said device from them directly. I am getting mine from Circuit City in New Castle, DE in a week or two (hopefully) and if they ask me to sign a contract, to hell with it. Even if the machine is modified by the time I get it, at least it'll have only been a $100 f* up!
mrBoB
Dude.. The idea is they're already losing money on it by selling it for $99. I won't be able to afford the thing with the mods you're suggesting. Now y'all can flame all you want, but $100 for neat toy sounds good to me, unethical or not. Plus, if I f*up the thing trying to hack it, whose fault is it? I won't be able to take it back to the store. It's my own damn fault and I should have just used it the way the wanted me to.
Dude, they used QNX. you remember, the people Amiga was gonna work with before gateway sold them :-) I must say its pretty sweet for them to have used QNX instead of WinCE. I wouldn't have given them that much credit to use a REAL OS!
mrBoB
"marketing materials didn't mention the requirement of purchasing any service or the exclusion of the use of the device for any purpose at the time I placed my order"
Woah, let me get this straight... they have to tell you what you are not able to use the device for?
You never paid for a device that could have a hard drive connected to it. You never paid for a computer that could be used with other ISP services. What you paid for was something that met the advertising claims of Netpliance - an "internet appliance" that could be used with their ISP.
If you're charged for the ISP without connecting to their service (the earlier sales policy didn't charge until you set up the account by connecting), then you could potentially have some case. But since you were never promised the capability of connecting a drive, I'm afraid I don't see any way you could claim that the lack of that capability is fraud.
Grow up, kid, and learn something about how the real world works! Until they sell it to you, it belongs to them. Nothing requires them to sell it to you at all. It is their *property* until they agree to sell it to you.
The seller clearly sets out the terms under which they are willing to sell to you, and the buyer either accepts the terms and buys, or refuses the terms and does not buy. (Third option, the buyer comes back with a counter-offer and you negotiate doesn't really apply here)
Each and every time anybody sells something to you, you are entering into a legally binding contract with them, whether you sign a piece of paper of not. Usually, when you buy something at a store, the terms of the contract are simple 'cash for goods': pay X dollars, get Y product, and all the terms of the contract are satisfied as long as Y works as advertised [maybe not even that, if you bought it 'as-is'].
If you are young, maybe this is the only way you have ever bought anything in the past, but that does not mean it is the only type of sale there is. (Just wait until you buy a car, or worse - a house that comes with entailments, mandatory escrow, neighborhood covenants, etc. and you'll find out how many perfectly legal, if annoying, restrictions can be placed on the things you 'own' !)
The company that manufactures, and therefore OWNS the i-Openeners, is not offering a simple 'cash for goods' kind of sale contract. The terms (you pay $99 == you get iOpenener hardware) are NOT acceptable to them; since they do not agree to that contract, if you walk away with a box in your hand without agreeing to those terms, you are a thief, and have stolen property which the iOpener company did not agree to tranfer to you. The terms they ARE offering are (you pay $99 now, + $x/month for at least N months == you get iOpener hardware + you get N months of service that you can choose to use or ignore.) Take it or leave it, but don't think you get to re-write the entire human history of contract law because you don't want to think of yourself as a criminal.
Their plan was to get a "free lunch" by fooling people into believing their product is cheaper than it really is: pay us only $99 now, and you'll pay the rest when you subscribe to our overpriced ISP. They've gotten caught at this stupid trick, and are reacting by tying their customer's hands, instead of just charging an honest price. Why am I supposed to feel sorry for them?
Is it too much to ask that they just charge an honest price and let us do what we want with what we buy? Lots of people would be willing to pay for a reasonably priced X terminal, and if their intended audience isn't going to buy the things without being tricked into it, well, too bad.
---Bruce Fields
Yeah, I know, and that's another "trick" of the same genre. We're so used to things being sold this way, we're inured to it, so it's easy to forget the whole point of this exercise: they're trying to play silly games to make their products appear cheaper than they really are, and to make it more complicated for you to figure out how much their product is really going to cost you in the long run.
Don't you find it's a pain in the butt trying to figure out all these stupid cellphone deals? Wouldn't it be simpler if they'd just sell the phones at a reasonable price instead of making you do advanced mathematics every time you want to do a little comparison shopping?
All that I'm suggesting is that if you want to sell interoperable products X and Y, you should sell each of them at a reasonable price and not try to play silly games with your customers. If you do, you may find yourself forced to expend unnecessary resources trying to make your customers to play along.
---Bruce Fields
People modify cable boxes, so the "surrounded by steel" method wouldn't stop it either. (Every cable box I've ever seen had been filled with tar to prevent modification.)
While they certainly cannot stop people from tinkering, they can make it damned difficult. Say they removed the IDE interface -- be that the connector, the wiring for the connector, or the interface chipset itself -- then it's gonna a lot harder to shoe-spoon linux or netbsd in there.
"I really don't see how they could be forcing anyone to pay the $21.95 for much beyond the first month"
Well look at what they do with cell phones. When I got mine the phone came at a reduced rate, but is technically owned by me. But if I cancel my cell plan I have to pay a penalty because they only sold me the phone on the grounds that I would subscribe to their service for a year.
They'll probably come up with a plan like this eventually, what they have now on their page obviousally isn't sufficent legal grounds.
Last week during the I-Opener hype, I came across a link to a liquidator that was selling an I-Opener type device made by Planar, who apparently specializes in compact, mobile computing for the medical care market. They have specs for their newer Clean Screen devices that show that these are already what we're wishing the I-Opener was. HiTechCafe was selling an older version for $259, I believe it was a 12.1" screen and a slower CPU than the current models. Unfortunately, they're sold out now and I didn't look into the specs good enough at the time to learn just what they were selling. I sure am kicking myself now as I imagine the new units are quite pricey. Anyways, these devices are mostly just a stop-gap until Crusoe webpads and the like hit the market later this year.
Ummm, they originally purchased 30,000 of these units at $106.67 each.
I think you're missing the point. Netpliance screwed up by selling something under the assumption people wouldn't open it up. They sold something below cost because they thought that the 21.95 a month would recoup the loss of the hardware. They made the mistake of not making people sign a contract. It's their fault, nobody is denying that. If someone buys a car, they don't pay $2,000 for a Ford Taurus with Ford assuming that you'll get an oil change from only them. That's why it's a lot more than $2,000 and that's also why there is a contract with a lease. I guess Netpliance can do something really great with this if they choose but they won't be the first or the last company to sell hardware. They're one of the first to sell something for pennies and not sticking a binding contract onto it. - Ed
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
- Sell at the discounted price with a mandatory service contract, and
- Sell at the full hardware-plus-markup price, with no service contract.
Either way, they'd make their money. People could take the pay-over-time terms if they wanted the service, or pay-up-front if they didn't want the service. And hackers would have bought the things in droves. Now relations are going to be more adversarial, and that wasn't necessary.--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
But me, I want a Linux box on cool hardware, because I can't bear the thought of conforming.
So here's the question: assuming that by sheer luck the one I ordered from Circuit City is modifiable, can it be made to dual-boot to either Linux or Netpliance's own service?
And on another note (a-flat) I think they made a mistake in taking for granted that all who bought would sign up and be too timid/nervous/stupid to open up the box and mod it. Sure, it is *unethical* but not *illegal* to modify one of these things. They had to know the risk of losing money on a few machines to hardware hacks, but they underestimated the power of /.
Here's an idea: Create a similar device for us hackers, but leave out the IDE, parallel port and modem; throw in SCSI and 100BT ethernet. And 2 PS/2 ports so a real kbd and mouse can be hooked up.
Sell it for what it costs to produce + a few bucks profit, and I'll buy one.
Give me my freedom, and I'll take care of my own security, thank you.
I had angle brackets around ctrl and /. thought it was an HTML tag... *sigh*
Give me my freedom, and I'll take care of my own security, thank you.
I ordered one.. no, 3... from Circuit City myself. Not from the website, but I actually went to the store. Since I already put a full deposit down, I wonder if they can refuse to let me take it away without signing up for the service?
Give me my freedom, and I'll take care of my own security, thank you.
I am putting the finishing touches on a Linux-based ATM machine (as in CASH), and my client is looking to use the i-opener as a replacement for the full-size PC we've been developing on.
I just wrote them an email saying: You either sell the thing for $99 or you don't! Now what's your price WITHOUT your crappy internet service? Are they really dumb enough to throw away the easy sale of 3,000 units?
Probably.
here in Finland many banks offer such services as paying bills online for quite a time by now. (e.g. Osuuspankki). snail-mail statement copies are optional. :))
security... well, not to strong. SSL with 40bit keys.
plus l/p authentication (UID=6 digit number, password 4 digit number
in addition bank gives you a list of transaction codes (transaction number + transaction code, 4 digit number ) which you should use whenever they ask you for code(which usualy happens once when you are payiong bill). this list includes ~100 transactions codes. when they all are used, you should go to bank for new list.
additional service include money transfer to other accounts, currency exchange etc.
this service is free for persons under 27 and cost 10FIM (1.6$) per month to all others.
The problem is that, in this case, the razor will work without a blade.
Given that they've announced that the modifications are already implemented, it's likely that the change they made is a simple one. They obviously didn't have time to re-layout the board. Most likely they've clipped the connector, encased it in epoxy or something similar. You'd hope they weren't naive enough to assume that switching to "tamper-proof" screws would be sufficient.
I got a kick out of their statement: "Modification of the i-opener in any way is in violation of our terms and conditions." Shows a total lack of understanding of the type of people who have been buying the i-Opener. Someon who hacks into it to convert it into a PC isn't interested in whether it voids the warranty.
It's also interesting that they don't have a minimum subscription term. They've now started billing you for the first month but don't say what happens if you cancel your subscription. I would've thought that they'd put a 1-year minimum on the service. As somone else said "Ooooo. So it's $119."
To summarize:
I think that everybody agrees that this can be done (make changes, even glue etc won't entirely prevent it)
The bug question is whether you _should_ do this.
You can talk legalities all you like.
And perhaps they should have made their model more explicit.
But I think everybody knew how they wanted to run their business.
The question is, just because you can do something which takes advantage of someone else, should you?
If you found a wallet on the sidewalk, do you keep it or try to return it?
Would you be so quick to try to take advantage of the i appliance if you bought it from the company face to face?
A company is made up of people with jobs.
Their jobs depend on the future of the company.
Just because you don't see the faces, don't forget they are there.
Ask yourself, what kind of person are you?
Let's extend the metaphor of the i-opener as a similar product to a cell phone. ... but there's a catch: to get that price you must sign a contract to use their service for a year. Next time you visit your favorite Nextel retailer, have a look at the Fine Print (tm). They're more than happy to sell you *just* the phone (sans contract); however, they will also add $300 to the cost of the phone. This is likely the agreement NetPliance had HOPED to use. Sadly, they didn't. My advice to them is to fire their legal and marketing depts. and adopt a similar agreement without modifying the hardware. This accomplishes their goals without alienating the technically inclined. Given the terms stated in my local Circuit City, I haven't violated any agreement, nor have I cheated anyone. Terms slapped on a website don't affect those of us who didn't sign any contracts (in fact, since I paid cash, I didn't sign anything) especially not retrospectively.
In a retail store, you can buy a Nextel phone for about $50
I for one simply can't bring myself to apologize for not buying the service they OFFER for the hardware I OWN.
Mith
--In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice they're different.
Simple:
they just repin the IDE interface. it'll take the hardware hackers forever to find the real pinout. in fact, many hackers may stray away from even trying, for fear of destroying their hard drive.
Oh, that's ridiculous. They may be selling these as 'loss leaders' and they may want you to use their service after you purchase one, but if you pay what they're asking to purchase an i-Opener then you OWN it.
Look at the cellphone market. Cell phone companies sell their phones at a loss with the hope that they will make the money back throught monthly service charges. To enforce this, they protect the ability of reprogramming the phones through a subsidy lock. Only the phone company knows the lock code, and without it you can't reprogram the phone.
Now look at this. They are selling you hardware at a loss with the hope that they will make the money back through the monthly service fees for their internet services. In this case, they are making the hardware unmodifiable so you can't use it with someone else's services.
In both cases the respective companies are protecting the hardware they took a loss on to sell to you.
It's not a lease. It's not rental. It's a purchase. Opening it up and modifying it to make it do something else is no more stealing than buying a Playstation and letting it sit in a closet.
What you are purchasing is a license to legally use that hardware, similar to a software license. When you purchase a piece of software, you don't own that software. You can't disassemble the software and modify it to do something else, and still expect the company who wrote it to be ok with what you've done. Most license agreements specifically forbid modifications of any kind.
This is interesting (from their Jobs page):
Sr. Software Engineer
Looking for a Senior Software engineer with extensive background in Linux development to help lead the existing Linux team. Experience in working with an open source project is a must. Knowledge of X-Windows and network protocols preferred. 1-3 years experience required - please include link to sample projects when responding.
TANSTAAFL is one of those rare absolute truths of the universe, and Heinlein was a god to me. Hence your post caught my attention. However, on a couple of points I think you are slightly wrong...
1. There was no soldering involved. If you had read the articles linked before responding you would have realised that. The hack was a simple matter of overwriting flash memory with the desired boot image.
2. They have every right to offer the hardware under whatever terms they wish. They do not have the right to retroactively change the terms on customers that had already ordered. This is wrong, and from other posts it seems that this is indeed what they did. If I had ordered one of these things already I would be rather upset. Remember, they didn't originally say we will sell it to you at this price on the condition that you agree to pay us monthly for our overpriced service for x months afterwards - they tried to get sly and claim there were no strings attached - smug and secure in the knowledge that your would have to buy that service because they wrote the firmware to make the thing useless if you didn't.
Well, that joke was on them it turns out, and quite understandably they got mad. They changed the rules. Fine, they can do that. BUT NOT RETROACTIVELY. Anyone that ordered one of these before the change was announced has a valid contract for the delivery of the original model with no strings attached the best I can tell. "Free lunch?" Maybe. But if I offer a free lunch to increase my cocktail sales, I will have to make good on it, even to those that don't drink, no? I think Heinlein even mentioned that little fact...
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
Leave off the hard drive, and let it boot off a Linux server over ethernet...
A GPL'able thin client!
Yes, that's really my e-mail. Don't change a thing.
I'm sure kevin mitnick will be pleased to hear this.
ironically, this is where i purchased my hard drive for my brand new i-opener :)
Copyright today by Webmoth. Not to be stored, read, or retransmitted by any means involving Microsoft products. Too late. I'm reading this from NT4 sp6. This is the perfect web site EULA! Just add a $1 charge for every violation. ;)
There: Something at a specific location.
Their: Owned by someone.
Please make sure your english compiles.
That may be true for the new agreement just announced, but not for the time period before it was announced.
I'd like to know where it says on my monitor that it is licensed and I can't take it appart. Besides that it will void the warranty.
MikeF
There: Something at a specific location.
Their: Owned by someone.
Please make sure your english compiles.
I looked at the engineer's site, and the hardware looks cool; $200 for a Win or Linux machine is just great. But thing stuck out at me, and made me wonder about usablility - there is no ESC key on the keyboard. Is the keyboard proprietary? If not, how do use vi? How do you cancel things in Windows? I mean, little ole ESC doesn't seem like much, but I realize it hit it dozens of times a day... My point (yes there is one) is maybe these guys could build these machines *specifically* to be low-cost Linux machines. Even at $300 or $350, the machine is still pretty spiffy.
Alright, ha ha ha ha. you got me.
I meant that Bell Atlantic would not care if I opened up my cell phone and started running NetBSD on it.
OTOH, if you started using the phone to "open up" the phone network, I'm sure they would come charging after you with big hairy handed lawyers.
Point taken though.
www.avacal.com -- the home page of pete shaw
You do have a point here. I think that most people's problem with them will be that they promised an open system, and then switched to a closed one. Maybe a solution would be to sell the system using the terms and price described. Then offer a more expensive version (expensive enough so they make a reasonable profit?) that is open?
-RickHunter
--"We are gray. We stand between the candle and the star."
--Gray council, Babylon 5.
Apparently you don't appear to be getting the idea that the $99 price of the box is a loss leader. The netpliance box contains at least $200-300 of parts, making it very similar to the other "cheapest possible" computers out there. Even selling them a $300, netpliance probably wouldn't be making a profit. But ideally, that would be ok. Netpliance doesn't want to sell computers- they want to sell internet services, and they want to sell them to a relatively untapped market segment- non-computer owners. By practically giving away the computers, netpliance intended to create a large subscriber base that previously would have been driven away by the cost of a computer, but still is willing to pay for the net service. Which seems to have worked very well, or would have if they had counted on someone getting handy with the screwdriver, and locked the box up accordingly. Instead all their draws are being snapped up by people who have no intention of getting near the profitable part of their business, which would be the subscription. Once they get the connectors sufficiently scrambled or covered with superglue, they may be able to recover enough to survive this. Still, probably was a good idea to dump your stock before it was too late.
I called about my special order to CC in WA.
They cliam there is a two month wait. "There appears to be a problem with the I-opener and they are modifying it." I told them I am going to go in and cancel my order.
I can only imagine what type of controversy this may cause.
Ever tried to buy a cellphone without the service? It's expensive as hell. They always sell those as a loss-leader because they will make it up on the service. Nobody has a problem with that. If you buy the service, it's $10, if not, it's $300. The I-Opener should be sold the same way.
If someone wants a cute Linux box for $299, then maybe they'll go that way, if not, don't. Don't get mad at a company for not wanting to take a huge loss on their product.
Why does everyone think they should get everything for free?
WWJD -- What Would Jimi Do?
(Smash amp, burn guitar, take home the groupies)
As cool as this was, It wasn't that cool for them. I don't care how you TRY to justify it, but it is stealing their hardware. They designed this with the included service in mind. So stop bitching. I mean, yeah, this whole affair gave them a lot of publicity and new business, and yeah, they didnt lose all that much money from this. But just the same, it *was* totally immoral (I was still intent on getting one though ;-)). Them supporting open-source, has nothing (NOTHING) to do with people buying their hardware for a ridiculously low price...
the real shiftaling has user number 5134
Karma: -43 and DROPPING!!!
Now isn't that an interesting strategy!
Can we have 'half' control of the thing?
Please report back.
Because they LOSE on the sale, which you say yourself later on.
But come to think of it, this proves that the i-opener is sold at a loss, with the profit made through the ISP. This makes the ISP a hidden cost of the i-opener, and frankly that's deceptive advertising. They should do something about that.
Again: bullshit. If you buy a subscription to a newspaper, WITH NO MONEY DOWN, and then you have to pay subscriptionfees to actually get that newspaper every day, do you call that deceptive advertising, too? Of course not.
<grub> Reading
It's too bad about the change in policy. I was going to pick one up to use as a command interface for my car stereo. I think it would fit, and the keyboard was perfect. I was going to set one up with mini-linux or probably BSD to control my car stereo for competition.
Original wording was that units shipped after the 20th would no longer be able to be modified. People who had unit's shipped after the 20th have confirmed nothing has changed. There is buzz now that unit's manufactured after the 20th may be protected, but as was said in a previous message, to implement a change within a week would have to be small and easily beaten. check i-opener-linux for the latest news on the new protection.
sqweak
"They have computers and other weapons of mass destruction" -US Attorney General Janet Reno
Its 192000 and I feel fine.
I believe the CA MSN issue was about tying
a rebate to a service agreement; the rebate
had to stand alone and couldn't be conditional.
I know of no problem with having a product
requiring a service agreement (but note that
netpliance allows you to cancel).
A widespread example of this is cell phones.
I'm used to hearing that in strip clubs, not corporate board rooms.
-SG
NerdPerfect.com : breakfast of champions.
"We are not about taking legal action (or) resisting the open-source community," Fareed said.
Fareed said the company is looking at ways to work with the engineers and programmers who have been tinkering with the innards of the device.
Netpliance didn't appear to be too worried about the hacks, either. Instead, they're thinking about tapping into the kind of engineering expertise that's hard to hire at start-up companies.
Well, either the Netpliance spokesman (Fareed) wasn't at all speaking for the company when he said these things, or there's been a rapid turnaround of their "strategy." I know it's cynical, but this may have been a way to try to calm the demand for the machines (..."If we lull them into thinking that we're not pulling the plug, some of them might wait..") while they were working on their "fixes." Then again, it may have been a way to calm investors (who were already getting plenty nervous) into thinking it wasn't a horrible situation for the company.
It's unusual for a publicly traded company to get away with rapid reversals of policy such as this one--it's generally discouraged, it gets investors nervous. After all, who wants to sink money into a company that's not being honest with the public. Oh well, seeing as their stock went up 14% today, I guess people are either less concerned with customer perception than they once were, or the investors don't see the company's actions as any way detrimental to how customers will see the company. It still is 6 points shy of where it was on the 17th, when it started a fall to its low.
I know allot of people, including myself saying "Hey $100 for a freaking X term, where else can you beat that?"
I was going to get one to, not now, this is crap. You PAY for their product, what you do with it AFTER you have PAID them, is your right. If I want to buy a Compaq Computer and burn (as in fire, not as in CD-R)the Windows CD that comes with it, that is my right AFTER I have PAID them and they are happy with the payment.
They are losing sales. Sure only probably 1000 (if that) would have been sold to the geek population, but still $100 X 1000, that is some extra cash the company can put in their pocket.
What happens if you buy one, use there service for 2 months, then cancel service? The machine is still yours, if you want to burn it, break it, make it better, put NetBSD on it, run Linux on it, run OpenBSD on it, that is your right.
"You should be able to use it as a sex toy after you have paid for it, it is your right, and your duty as an American. As long as you don't hurt youself or other while lubing it up. I don't know about you, but that LCD is fscking sexy." Just for the record, I have not had sexy with the iOpener or any other type of computer/inanimate object. This would be a good time for a grits troll.
"`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'" -THHGTTG
that when you buy a car the company is making money from the sale. Same thing with Dell.
With the I-Opener they lose money on each sale and make money from the service contract. Like someone else said it's just like cell phones. You can get one real cheap and be locked into a contract or you can PAY LOT MORE and get something you can do what you want with.
When I went in last Tuesday, there were only two other people who had them on order. They got two of them in yesterday, and filled those orders. I'm next. And I'm very glad I got there when I did, since there are now nine backorders behind me. And this is in Peoria, Illinois!
---
How am I supposed to fit a pithy, relevant quote into 120 characters?
If finding out whether it is hackable requires opening the case, won't that void your 14-day return right? (not that they would know)
No kidding! Those I-Openers are going for $200-$300 dollars per auction. If you bought 9 I-Openers like I heard some people have done, that's a pretty penny... Of course, e-bay auctions are a hassle.
OoO
Please do not publish outside of
The bios is in a socket. So even if you can't flash it to a new version within the machine, you should be able to do so outside of the case. Again, this may be how they go, but like the ide header, is only a small detrement to restoring their full cuntion. Musing on things in general, it seems to me likely that the i-openers are containerized and shipped across by boat. It would be highly unlikely that they could have reacted fast enough to mod the ones shipped out currently and have had them cross the Pacific. I could be wrong, but...
There are really only two modifications that they could make to make it hard for the (sub)average hacker. One is to remove the ide header, the other is to get Award to modify the bios so that it could only boot from the SanDisk. I suspect that they will take the former route, if any since it is easy for the manufacturer of the boards just to leave out inserting the part. Many folks don't know which end of the soldering iron is hot anymore, so it will deter the more casual. Unfortunately, they (i-opener) have unfortunately failed to realize that by fighting these mods they are issuing a chalange to those inclined to mod them. I will guarantee modified post mod i-openers will be available a day or two after you can buy them at circuit city. Indeed, as soon as they become available, I will be buying one to crack it open just to see if I can get it to fly myself.
In many ways its a shame. If they had offered folks the option of buying these at (say) $500 a pop, they could make $100 a piece on them and there would be a reasonable demand for it. And hey, a 25% margin with no ad campaign isn't too bad a roi. The company I work for would gladly buy a number of them. Alternately, since my company would like to equip some of their employees with an inexpensive home machine to telecomute using cytrix or such, a modifiable machine to run the software combined with a reasonable term contract for the isp service would have also been of interest to them.
O well, I suppose its more than I can expect from the folks with a b-school degree to think logically and not be reactive.
A posting at iopener-linux.net dated March 22 16:39, states that a number of folks who had ships done on March 21 have received un-modified machines. This raises the flag that the whole thing may be a pile of merde to support their stock price which has taken a hit and now trades 2$ under its ipo price. The ipo was monday, so I suspect that there are a large number of totally bs investors at this point.
I would be a lot happier if these guys would use their self-evident capability to produce a PC-like "thin client," even if it were diskless. My mental model would be along the lines of the first Monorail PCs. As an IT manager, I'm always looking for ways to compress the per-user costs of deployment, and if Netpliance would make something that would help me do that, I would be seriously tempted to buy it - in quantity!
just get one and cancel your membership. the march 20 thing is a lie. what did they scrap 'em all and remanufacture? I don't think so.
A decent Network is finally here.
So most of you are okay with hurting the company, whether or not you think it's technically stealing?
I'm sure they didn't expect someone would be able to take apart the box and add Linux to it. Being a proprietary piece of hardware, there was no reason to expect people would cancel the service unless they simply didn't like it. Thus, it seemed perfectly reasonable to use the business model they did. Can you blame them for trying to do things the simple way? Why make people sign their life away on some scary legal documents when in all likelihood, it will be unnecessary?
I applaud the company for being so consumer-friendly, unlike many others out there. Congratulations for showing all other like-minded companies out there that they shouldn't trust the consumer.
Haven't even opened it: was waiting for the weekend to get the IDE device. I'll call them up and cancel service as soon as I get a chance though.
Maybe they would just replace it? or at least just replace the mb. probably cheaper the repairing it.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
The only real fraud is done by those people that purchase(d) the devices and then don't follow through with the ISP contract. The only way that you could sue for fraud is if the product did not work as advertised by them. It does not matter if they decide to modify the motherboard, bios, or rivited the case together. They can do what they want with the design changes as long as it still functions as advertised!
I bought my DSS setup for dirt cheap with the understanding that I had to buy a years worth of server. I got a great deal on this Nokia but I'm obligated to a year of service from the seller. Far from being illegal, it's quite comman and accepted.
Such as the cell phone industry, pagers, and satellite to mention a few...
But, They could have solved the situation without alienating Linux hackers. They could offer an open platform (maybe with a standard IDE port) available at a decent profit to them. Then they could offer two levels of service, one cheaper with the ISP service bundled, one more expensive but allowing the user to choose their ISP AND/OR modify the box.
This would help them with the major gripe about their service (lock-in to them as an ISP) and keep them on good terms with the influential Linux communnity.
It could also immediately increase their cash flow (very important to a young company), and increase their volumes on the hardware, which could help their costs.
Hopefully someone like VIA is watching this, and sees the opportunity for cool Linux appliances.
I would like to see something modular (upgradeable).
Was surprised to see intelligent remarks about Slashdot and Linux in a front page article.
On Friday, according to the article at: http://www.austin360.com/technology/stories/2000/0 3/23netpliance.html Netpliance had a $144M IPO. We all know that Netpliace probably used this quarter's numbers in their prospectus which also included the sales from all of the Linux hackers buying their machine to tinker with. This probably boosted their stock price, and they have the hackers to thank for it. How do they repay us? Bait and switch. None of their terms of service agreement lock you into a purchase of their service, but now, they say that you have to pay. (Oh, and my guess is that the way the machine has been modified is to remove the IDE controller from the motherboard. That's the easiest way.)
Reading all these postings it would appear that there is a real market for an inexpensive terminal like the i-opener which is not tied to a service contract. Hell, slashdotters have already done the market research. All they need is some firm price points, new name, and a distibution channel. So - how many units and how much?
one better than mcleodeight
Went to Circuit City yesterday, and just the one location has 25 i-openers on back order. I spoke with the salesperson there, and as far as I could tell they are going to continue to be sold at CC without requiring the customer to commit to the monthly internet access plan.
IANAL, but even if there is a statement or contract on the web site, it is not binding. Even if it were, it would only apply to those who purchased through the web site. You have to realize, most of the people buying these (other than geeks) don't already have internet access. This is a easy alternative to buying a PC if you already have a phone line. Also, I called Netpliance yesterday and even if you buy online, you can cancel the service immediately.
I sent this email to netpliace a while back. Interesting reply:
The reply:
[no -'s in email]
Kevin Mitnick is not relevant to the issue because there, the accusation (and potential criminal consiquences) had to do with defrauding and/or misusing the cellular service. If the hackers here were modifying the "NetPliance" to use the ISP portion of the service without paying, then it could be compared to cloning cell phones. "Maybe there's no Free Lunch, but if you hit the bar at Happy Hour, you may be able to get some free munchies..." I think the Cell phone model is a business plan that would solve theiissue here - just as others have said... Offer the product for $99 with a 1 year or 2 year contract for the $21 per month, make the CONTRACT specify that an early termination fee of $XXX (Cost of the hardware plus a reasonable margin) will be assessed if you cancel. That way, they could also specify a "Buy the thing without ISP contract" plan for a fair price. If it is worth it, we hacker-types will continue to buy, if not, we will buy something else.
The Digital Sorceress
With friends like Netpliance, who needs enemies.
IANAL... But I play one on
Can WebTV be hacked? It has a 56k modem and hard drive.
Instead of this:
>It appears that they will no longer sell their products without the service and they have renderd the devices immune to modification.
It should read like this:
It appears that they will no longer sell their products.
Because its yet another ignorant scheme to rip people off with monthly charges for such a stupid device/service.
They could probably sell these, as is for $200-$225 and still make some money, - by geeks wanting a small footprint Xterm, with a so-so LCD screen.
I think its time that people stop making these companys rich, by agreeing to such ludicrous monthly service fees.
They look cool, but i dont know if you cant modify them. Is it realy open source or are they lieing?
I see that was moderated as "funny", but I was deadly serious. If you drip superglue on copper traces, they get eaten. Superglue is very acidic. I once wrecked an Atari 130ST like that.
Don't try that at home, kids!
--
Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
I'd be surprised if they were doing anything more than removing the IDE header from the board...the just will raise the ante on soldering skills required. What they should do if FIRE all their engineers who came up with such an easily modified box. Of course, like most companies, they probably hired cheap inexperienced kids instead of paying the extra $$ for folks with a track record...
--- Speaking only for myself,
Point to you, they didn't specify the hardware capabilities. Neither did they say "We'll give you any piece of matter that will connect to our service". They were selling a specific piece of hardware. My happening to know the capabilities of that model shouldn't have anything to do with it. As long as the "new" model (modified only to prevent perfectly legal repurposing of the hardware) has the same specifications as the previous advertising, it will be difficult to claim that they fraudulently sold me hardware diffent from what I paid for. But since their manipulation has been pretty public I would still throw it in as a count. But really, the Terms of Service that they're trying to retroactively apply are in my opinion an actionable cause.
Since their marketing materials didn't mention the requirement of purchasing any service or the exclusion of the use of the device for any purpose at the time I placed my order (and gave a cash deposit) I believe they have a contractual obligation to deliver to me the original design device. Anyone want to join a class-action lawsuit for fraud? Here's a copy of the Email I sent to their developer's corner. "I have a Circuit City receipt for an iOpener purchased under the then-existing sales policy of March 19. I put down a cash deposit to secure this transaction. If I do not receive the product under the terms of sale and with the capabilities then existing, I will be suing you for fraud."
If the IDE Cable is the only modification... 1. It still has a USB port 2. It still has a ParPort An external hardrive can be connected to both.
Not sure - but I bet TiVo can be... I wonder why no one has done this.
"No good deed goes unpunished."
This isn't about cheap computers, and it isn't about open source. It is a reaction to a reaction. Wall St. reacted badly following the NPLI IPO, when they heard some greasy hackers had a way to subvert their perception of the business model. Note that this is the venerable NSC Webpad, and NPLI isn't the only one to take this fine platform forward (see Qubit). If they're smart, Netpliance won't care - just sell them. No one expects them to make money for quite some time anyway. Besides, their competition will have versions with hard drives, PCMCIA slots and 11mbps Wireless networks very very soon. Whether these systems will run Windoze, BEos, Linux (my bet) or CP/M really shouldn't matter to these guys. The real money will be delivering applications (beyond Mozilla).
"No good deed goes unpunished."
I just wanted to point out one thing:
IMHO, Netpliance simply *cannot* be selling this hardware at a loss. They might be breaking even, or not making much, but they can't be losing much either. I'm basing this on the following:
1) They charge a maximum of $21/mo for the internet service. From SEC filings, we know that it costs Netpliance ~$12/mo for each account that they sell. That gives them a monthly profit from service at no more than $9.
2) The average life expecancy of this device (with its intended audience) can't be more than 2 years, and I believe that this is being extremely generous.
$9 x 24mos = $216 gross profit per buyer over the lifetime of service, assuming no time is spend with the customer on support calls, etc.
AFAIK, they don't force banner ads on folks, so theres no significant revenue there..
Add all this up, and I don't see how they can be selling the hardware as a loss leader. The LCD that they are using (the only significant piece of hardware on the whole unit) is fairly cheap in quantity, too.
Am I wrong?
They are selling at a HUGE loss. Like, around 300 bucks a pop. The plan is to make it back via the service, but even then they don't make much per user per month on the service, 'cause they subcontract out.
I post anonymously because I'm not supposed to know this. *coughcough*
If one breaks, not as big a deal as a 2000 computer. Just replace it. All it would be used for is web surfing, etc.
If netpliance was smart they would tap this market and go after it. By closing their hardware, they are screwing them.
I just sold a 100 shares of them I had bought. Unless they turn around, I don't see a profit in their future. Everyone knows they won't make money on a subscription model.
-Davidu
# Hack the planet, it's important.
It's more like an older laptop LCD display - you have to be more-or-less directly in front of the screen to read it, and the video is blurry if you move the mouse around quickly, scroll quickly, etc. The display is definitely not as good as the display you would get if you bought a new laptop today, for example. I don't think the screen is any relative of the nice $1500 flat-panel displays That's pretty much what I expected, but that's really fine with me, for a kiosk application. Of course, this begs the question: what's the cheapest 800x600 VGA flat-screen one can buy? I'm ok with a narrow viewing angle and slow refresh, but I want to be able to plug it in to a standard cheapo video card. The only flatscreens I've ever seen for sale have been high-end ones. Is there somewhere to buy low-end ones for cheap?
I really don't see how they could be forcing anyone to pay the $21.95 for much beyond the first month.
If you sell it under a contract, you can do so, in the same way all these $400 off computer if you sign up with MSN deals work. However, and while IANAL, I believe what they are currently doing is not legal. There's no statement of how long you must pay (forever?), termination conditions, etc. You can't agree to a hidden contract. They need a statement of terms and conditions available on the web site for it to be binding.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
If I buy something, with a service agreement for a period of time, it is *NOT LEGAL* to require I then use the equipment as they dictate. I am not leasing, or getting at a discount. I *BOUGHT* the equipment, and paid for it strait out.
How does this affect shareholders? What is the difference if I buy it, use their service for 3 months and cancel, or I buy it, pay for three months of service, and do something else with it? Notice that in both situations, the same amount of money has been changed.
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
But you *MUST* understand here. You paid for the service, correct. THAT is legal. However, now they are enforcing that purchase of the equipment dictates that you can use their, *AND ONLY THEIR* service with the device.
In the case of your cell phone, you *own* it. After that year, you can go wherever the hell you please. If you want to take your phone, and hack a linux interface to it, you're on your own. They're certainly not going to cancel your phone service becouse you did something funky to your phone.
Selling one product and locking that device into another service that you sell without any possibility of using it for something else is not legal. You CANNOT take one of these and goto another ISP. And now, according to your service agreement, if you make *any* changes to the hardware that *YOU OWN*, you violate the terms of the purchase you agreed to at purchase.
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
To the average user, perhaps. The Netpliance is the exact same to the average user.
If I fail to agree to the ToS of the cellphone contract, they take my phone or bill me for the amount left owing. If they didn't, I could just take the phone to another area and get service with someone else. Netpliance tried to get around this by locking the dialup account to one account. They figured "Nobody will not get service, because it'll just be an expensive plastic paperweight without the service."
They didn't lock you down for a term, like all cellphone contracts with outrageously low prices for the unit. Their mistake, my gain.
Do you not think they'd do the same if the tables were reversed? I do. I'm fighting UUNet over something similar right now.
You can ONLY buy parts for a Volvo from a Volvo dealer. What's the difference?
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Look it's simple enough. It's normally the case that contracts are used to screw the little guy. In fact little guys are so used to getting screwed that marketing geniuses figure they don't even need a contract and the little guys will dutifully act as if they did. In this case (as in the case of MSN $400 rebate at Best Buy) there was no bulletproof contract, only an assumption that no consumer would be clever enough to get the better side of the deal. This despite the fact that the company had all the power in the deal. They had the lawyers and wrote (or could have written) the contract. All the consumer can do is buy the product under the terms of the contract (if any) or not buy it at all.
While it's a moral question as to whether one takes advantage of such a deal, I have a hard time feeling sorry for companies who make a calculation expecting consumers to be more stupid then they turn out to be.
--
"L'IT c'est moi!"
Please.
The device is unprofitable for a hundred bucks. Duh. So don't sell it for a hundred bucks.
Sell it for five hundred bucks, and toss in a $400 rebate if we agree to sign up for a year or two. It's what the rest of the industry does, and you guys just made me realize that it's not only the most annoying ad campaign ever to us tech guys, but it *really is* a smart way to get computers in people's hands.
It's that simple. Go in store rebate with signup, and let the geeks make ya rich.
Yours Truly,
Dan Kaminsky
DoxPara Research
http://www.doxpara.com
What I think they're doing is modifying the I-Opener to be difficult to modify, and working on making a $300 (or so, enough to make a profit I guess) Linux box, to prevent their I-Opener from competing with the more expensive, profit making, Linux computer.
Why those other two didn't catch that, I'll never know. But that's just what I was talking about; if they make the profit with the ISP service, then keep doing that. But let the hardware hackers mod it, because they will do it and moreover, they still have to pay Netpliance for that (since Netpliance sells the hardware). So people get their ultra-cheap Linux boxen, and Netpliance gets that many more sales.
Heck; if Netpliance really wanted to make a buck, they'd sell do-it-yourself mod kits too.You may be able to get the parts yourself, but people will pay for the convenience (particularly with the heatsink and modified IDE cable).
This is idiotic on their part. Someone comes out with something which I'm willing to bet at boosted their sales by an order of magnitude, and they cut that revenue source off? That's just stupid.
What you do is make clients that work with Linux, Win9X, and BeOS. Still make it clear that you have to use their ISP, but make it so the mods can do this also. You keep what's making you so much money, and you
Come to think of it, why did they even include an IDE port in the first place? The machines don't even have hard drives, so there's no need for one. So it makes little sense to me that they'd put that port on there; that only adds the cost of an IDE controller that's never even used.
But come to think of it, this proves that the i-opener is sold at a loss, with the profit made through the ISP. This makes the ISP a hidden cost of the i-opener, and frankly that's deceptive advertising. They should do something about that.
Make it a modifiable system. Make it reasonably priced, say $300 for a whole box and it'd be a win-win situation for everyone involved.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Netpliance is certainly going to be losing a lot on each machine at $99 and even $199 a pop. Exposure and attention is great. But the prospect of losing anywhere from $200 to $300 per unit is no way to run a business. Everybody likes something for nothing, and it would appear that Netpliance needs to rethink their business strategy just a little bit. Terms of Service is no way to do this, in my opinion, though.
I'm completely indifferent to whether I hurt or help their bottom line -- I'll let them mind their own business. Even if NPLI isn't smart enough to figure out how to profit from this incident, is that my fault?
I'm sure they didn't expect someone would be able to take apart the box and add Linux to it.
I'm sure the marketing geniuses that introduced the 3DO at $799 in the US didn't expect that practically nobody was willing to fork out that much. Should we have been accomodating enough to buy overpriced game systems so we didn't hurt their feelings?
I applaud the company for being so consumer-friendly, unlike many others out there. Congratulations for showing all other like-minded companies out there that they shouldn't trust the consumer.
You're exactly right. Never build a business on the kindness of strangers.
While they might be able to fill the inside of the i-Opener with epoxy to make it unmodifiable (without a whomping huge mess on your hands) I really don't see how they could be forcing anyone to pay the $21.95 for much beyond the first month.
They don't have any proprietary patents on technology used here (like the MPAA would be able to wrangle with rogue DVD use) and the equipment is being *sold* (not leased or rented) to the customer, so once someone's bought one, it's theirs to do with as they wish. Trying to make someone stay subscribed to their internet service is very likely to result in some *ugly* lawsuits.
I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who has recieved one of the supposedly unmodifiable units to find out if they really did fill it with epoxy. I honestly can't think of any other modification that could have been made so quickly to prevent tampering...
No, you're not stealing. You're taking advantage of a company selling things below their cost, because they know that once the average user has one, they'll be forced to shell out more money to the company, rather than give the machine up.
Buying the machine and not using their service is not stealing, because the machine is YOURS. You can drop it off a building, would that be stealing? If I buy a Sony CD Player, am I obligated to buy Sony CD's to play on it? No, I'm not.
Now, if Netpliance is smart, they just make the device free with a 2 year commitment to their service, and if you terminate the service after the first month, you either have to return the device or pay a couple hundred bucks to cover the cost of the machine. That would be completely legal, and ethical.
If you buy something, it is yours to do with as you wish. If you sign a contract, you must abide by the terms of the contract. Netpliance tried to avoid the contracts, which can scare off many users, but they got bitten in the arse by people who could blow a hundred bucks on one of their boxes, add another hundred bucks in parts, and have a machine without the need for their service. Now they're being forced to use contracts, which they probably should have used all along.
---
When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout. --Robert A. Heinlein
:)) Imagine HIM delivering a presentation proposing a new ecash network WAN router capital infrastructure to your major SE Banking executive board meeting.
Back on topic - it's clear that consumers are quickly losing ground in the property battle - the i-appliances may be subsidized by the online content they are going to deliver (i.e., ads-to-eyeballs) but this is bound to rub the more do-it-yourself crowd the wrong way - like finding a great deal on a car and having to sign an agreement that "installing a bigger carb is an unauthorized upgrade" and that you can only use one brand of gasoline. I'd love to see some folks get thin, 0 maintenance web browsers but if it comes with these 'bargain with the devil' type restrictions forget it. If I buy something I want to own it outright and not get sucked into a web of 'service agreements' and other methodes of guarenteeing a cash flow. A fellow at work here mentioned what a great deal he got on a PC ($500), then mentioned it came with a 3 year MSN lock in, I guess if you try to install AOL an alarm goes of in Redmond - but that's one more warm body for the minions of targetable marketing to aim at.
I swear, if these guys ran the public libraries, you'd go in and ask for a book on dental hygene, and get a sales pitch for a certain brand of toothpaste.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
That's silly. They should have simply bundled the ISP service with the product and left it at that - "Use the service or don't, hack the machine or don't, but we need our money" is what they should have said, not this draconian crap.
Furthermore, I submit that making reasonable accomodation to the Linux community would benefit NetPliance:
There are many reasons to humor the "geek" community, these are just some of them. Yet I can think of no strong arguments against it. I would ask every "geek" who is interested in paying a reasonable price to email NetPliance, tell them you'd be willing to pay, and remind them that we are far from irrelevant.
send flames > /dev/null
Only 'flamers' flame!
However, the stock market didn't see it that way, and their stock had fallen way way down. This is an IPO--a crucial timeframe for them. It's make or break time, and they have to do everything they can to guarantee success and look good to the stockholders and the potential investors (ie, People Who Would Be Prone To Throw Money At Them). After the IPO is over, they'll probably relax a bit. For all we know, it might be some easily-bypassable hack that they just throw in for the sake of being able to say they could.
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
> I think we should be supportive of companies who are seeking alternatives to Microsoft products in light weight appliances. We need more companies like this to enhance competition so that we see more innovation.
/.ers leap for joy at every announcement that some new company has adopted Linux, but in this case the leaps were followed quickly by attempts to exploit a mistake and now, sadly, a lot of whining about the loophole being pinched shut.
Very good point. Nice as it is to get a $99 PC now and then, perhaps is would be nicer to live in a world where everything wasn't up to the whims of a 900 pound gorilla.
Most
Yes, it was a stupid mistake on their part. No, the early purchasers didn't have to buy the service. But now they're changing the offer, and it's a bit unseemly to get all worked up over the fact that you weren't fast enough to exploit someone else's mistake.
All the more so if you're a Linux advocate. What's going to happen when a techie at the next startup suggests using Linux? The VCs' eyes will roll in their heads, and their response will be, "No, it's WinCE for us all the way."
So think of the bigger picture. Contrary to popular rumor, it isn't by dying with the most toys that you win the game you've found yourself in, so don't worry overmuch about letting a $99 PC slip through your hands.
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
> The bottom line is all powerful in a public held company. Netpliance literally *had* to do something about this situation or else the stock holders would likely have filed suit against them.
That's why some of us thing the whole stock market thing is evil (even apart from being a pyramid scam). Companies sell their souls^H^H^H^H^Hstocks to get a very useful cash infusion, but thereafter find themselves beholden to absentee landlords with the power to yank their chains this way and that in order to maximize the all-important quarterly earnings report. If the company had bigger plans, or (heavens forfend!) long-term plans, well, tough shit. We're only interested in the upcoming quarterly report.
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
> Do some research on internet companies and you find that they are the opposite of what you think that is evil about the stock market.
I suppose for Exhibit A I could refer you back to the post I was replying to; that was far less than 10 years ago.
You do have an interesting data point with Amazon, but I don't buy your interpretation of it. Amazon's stocks are doing well because of the e-stock craze, which is nothing more than a manifestation of the pyramid scheme I refered to.
No one cares about Amazon's bottom line so long as there are more suckers willing to join in at the bottom of the pyramid. But what happens when Amazon's stock falls? Mind you, no one is asking whether the e-stock craze will collapse; what everyone wants to know is when it will collapse. Will Amazon then be plagued by people like the guy I was replying to, all eager to sue because Amazon failed to protect their investments?
Amazon in fact is a more more pointed condemnation of what's wrong with the stock market than even the sellout to absentee landlords.
> they take pride that they are following a long-term plan in building a name/goodwill
Is that a long-term business strategy? How many companies are getting away with that kind of strategy outside the world of e-commerce? At some point they need to generate some cash to go along with that name and goodwill, or else there are going to be a lot of burned investors when the e-craze collapses.
I don't know what Amazon's plan really is, though I could easily offer some cynical guesses. But whatever it is, it's being done at the expense of those poor suckers who bought high and will, sooner or later, have to sell low.
That's not the kind of long term plan I care to support, even if I thought I could avoid being the one left holding the empty bag.
> Actions speak louder than words.
And indeed they do. That's why I'm earning a comfortable living by working for wages rather than trying to strike it rich by joining in a destructive scam.
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
As far as it goes, they cannot prevent you from modifying the i-opener. If they lease you the hardware, or rent-to-own the hardware, they retain ownership of it, and can dictate what you do with it. If they sell it to you, as in, transfer ownership, you can do what you want with it.
This is similar to a cellphone contract. Once you sign up, you OWN The phone, but you are obligated to pay for your 2 years service or a cancellation fee if you quit. They cannot prevent you from smashing the phone to bits or modifying it, though, they simply prevent you from squirming out of your contract.
Actually, the reason people could get away with this in the Microsoft fiasco was because the MS contract explicitly allowed it. IT did *NOT* have to, it turned out.
The issue revolved around whether a cash rebate was a 'loan' or not. ie: we'll give you $200 if you sign up, but you have to sign up for a year. This could have been considered a loan.
It turns out it was NOT, and that the law MS thought it was protecting itself from had to do with businesses forcing you to get loans from them in order to do business with them, or some such thing.
Penalty contracts are enforcable, completely. If you sign a service contract, it *IS* enforcable.
IN short, no, there is nothing illegal about this. At least, not in North America. In the UK, and from what I hear, much of europe, there are strong anti-tying laws.
There are none here, however.
How do you figure? If they changed the machine's spec from what you ordered, then sure, absolutely. But if you bought the machine based on what somebody on the net told you, and then you get it and find out that's not true, well, it's not Netpliance's problem. They never said anything about providing you with a hackable machine.
www.HearMySoulSpeak.com
The trick here is that the company is probably selling this hardware at a stiff loss, and they figure that since it is proprietary and (they thought) it would only work with their service, they would make it up on the service. If a bunch of geeks go and buy them to make spiffy, cheap, X terminals out of them, they lose a lot of money.
It's like if the game console manufacturers were suddenly undercut by some large unlicenced game producer that didn't pay them any royalties.
On the other hand, i'd pay a little more for a version of this just to use as an actual X terminal. It still looks very cool =:-)
---
Play Six Pack Man. I
Nice philosophy. Good point: in the long run, hobbyists are good for you. However, metaphor will get you only so far. If they're losing money on every box, the long run isn't going to matter very much.
It's more as if you got your car free from the gas company, and then converted to solar.
Complain all you want if you think that trapping the consumer into your service is sneaky or unfair. But don't claim they should just suck it up and sell the thing for 99 bucks. Without the expectation of future ISP income, that price is just impossible.
On a more general level - I don't think the above is a horrible comment, but I don't think it deserves a 4. It's really easy to say "but I have a right to do that", much harder to work out the implications. <controversy intent="thought-provoking"> Everyone has a right to have as many kids as they can support. That gives the human race the right to reproduce itself down to pathetic subsistence. </controversy>
Preferential Voting: easy as 1-2-3
How about adding a license statement to the BIOS message? A "boot-through" license?
"If this were true then Sony would actually be encouraging sales of Bleem because it means there is another person out there with reason to buy the overpriced games and Sony wouldn't have to sell a loss leader console in the first place."
Sony's concerns over Bleem are not the lost funds due to lost playstation sales, but that Bleem will become ubiquitous. Then, Software producers can say their product is Bleem compatible. The playstation owners would know that it meant playstation compatibility as well, thus no need to get a license from Sony and Sony's marketing model evaporates.
LetterRip
It wasn't obvious here at /., because the story was posted after the change, but Netpliance has changed the wording of their disclaimer since this morning:
This morning it read:
"Modification of the i-opener in any way is no longer physically possible and is in violation of our terms and conditions and may be in violation of federal law."
Now it reads:
"i-opener Internet appliances shipped after March 20, 2000 can no longer be reconfigured in the manner described in recent reports. Modification of the i-opener in any way is in violation of our terms and conditions."
The brash claim that all modifications are impossible is gone, and presumably, their lawyers weighed in that there was no possibility of federal law violations. And the Ts&Cs are still seemingly missing from their site even now, which begs the question of how one could legally "Accept" them (the wording on the button) if they haven't disclosed them yet.
At the very least, it seems they pulled the trigger on this well before they were ready. But then, I suppose after losing probably $400/unit on thier entire inventory, they're a bit punchy. The "developer support" page just makes the whole thing even more bizarre.
"The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last
Looks like a few others had the same problem.
Now the question remains, why am I bothering to reply to lame ass AC's anyways, as usually when they post anonymously, they don't know shit.
You can't really blame them for this move (although you can probably blame them for the misleading statements made previously saying they had no real intentions to change the device).
When you have a multi-million dollar IPO, all that matters is profits and you MUST answer to shareholders when you take a big loss. Since Netpliance is selling the i-opener WELL below cost, they were setting themselves up for a HUGE loss. They stopped the bleeding as best they could, you can't really blame 'em.
Did you notice that http://www.linux-hacker/i-opener/ no longer exists? No more $35 hack kits even if you *can* get your hands on an old i-opener.
Signal 11 wrote: "It's a nice idea.. and having them use linux was a neat hack.. I would pressure them to come out with a "linux-ready" version at a higher price.. as you must recognize that they can't support their revenue model with us eating into it - $99 probably does not even cover wholesale costs of the device"
:) a cheap, integrated X-terminal (or maybe better yet, Qt/Embedded terminal) would be a hot seller, even at the original price of the iOpener, $300.
Granted, $99 was a come-on price designed to encourage the 1-choice ISP. But since home networks are becoming ever more common (outside of slashdot demographic, they're still sort of novel, really, though), and since Networks Need Nodes
So if anyone from iOpener is reading, please consider making your company (which is already building something Close Enough) the one to take advantage of this opportunity to fill the need for nodes.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
If they were/are selling it, while thinking that it is worthless without their service, why is that? Why don't they just say, "Sure, it's $99 initially, and $xx/month to use"? I suspect that the reason for the "sale" is to take advantage of some naive customer's assumptions.
If that's not the case, perhaps they have just made an honest mistake in their marketing (heh!). Do you also turn down "loss leaders" in other areas when you know that the company will be losing money on your purchase?
Geeky modern art T-shirts
$150/hr? $312 grand a year for installing hardware and software? Perhaps you should talk to my employer...
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
...to get a 486 with a 1 Gig hardrive and a built in cheapo LCD screen from a company called Monorail. I know because I've got one. It has a pretty small footprint and made a good dorm computer. The old version of RedHat I had tried to install on it about two years ago seemed to have problems with the hardware configuration (mostly because X11 didn't seem to like the LCD). I tried to install a more recent version of Caldera on it, but it was too much for it. I'm thinking of trying my copy of Mandrake next, or looking around for a more stripped down *nix. Of course, I'll need an external modem to make it useful after I do it, I think. I think it has a WinModem inside it... bleah. None of this is a priority, just a project I have lined up for when I have some free time... provided Mom doesn't destroy it first since I left it at her house. Anyway, it seems Monorail stopped selling the things and went for more ordinary computers (no more built in LCDs) but you might be able to find one used.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
What would it take to _really_ lock this thing down?
Superglue in the IDE port.
Pardon the obvious question, but WTF?
Unless surrounded by a steel case, anyone with tools can modify this oh-so-cool appliance.
The announcement is only so much useless verbage -- given a design, the Geeks of the World will find a way to change it.
This post encoded with ROT26. If you can read it, you've violated the DMCA. Handcuffs please, sergeant.
The problem with this Netpliance system is that it can continue to be used even after it has had the ISP turned off, provided you are able to hack into the thing. So yes, there are some problems with model.
The next thing to consider is more the practicality of a company trying to chase you down legally in court. They will probabally spend far more for the lawyers (case prep work, legal filing fees, ect.) than they could possibly get from you. Some states allow you to sue for court costs as well, but not always. Some prominent people might be sued, or a couple of FUD cases to try and scare people into submission, but probabally not everybody, nor a large group of independent people who each fail to pay for the service agreement, not to mention that Netpliance may not even succeed in every venue anyway, or even set a precidence against the terms of the service contract.
Netpliance purchased 30,000 of the machines for $106.67 each.
Dear Netpliance,
I respectfully announce to you that I will, in protest of your actions concerning the modification of your Netpliance hardware and software, not only fail to purchase one of the systems in question but I will also, in a negative connotation, inform any contacts I have in the Information Technology field concerning the truth of the issue and that they should not purchase your product. I will also inform such contacts that they should inform others of the true state of affairs concerning your product.
Your actions to forbid users to alter, in reality upgrade, the item purchased from you goes against the spirit in which computer systems and the Internet are used. Time and time again user friendly systems have been produced that are stagnant and inflexible with regards to hardware and software upgrades. Time and time again such systems have failed. They have failed because the manufacturer failed to take into account the desire for flexibility that new users develop when they become proficient at utilizing the system in the basic configuration. They also failed by forcing the user to purchase a completely different product in addition to the item he/she originally purchased. These actions have consistently spelled death for any product marketed in such a fashion. Repeatedly.
This inflexibility, it seems, also extends to your choice to bind a Netpliance purchaser to your Internet provider service. This action is analogous to a buyer of an automobile being required to drive only on a particular set of roads "sanctioned" by the manufacturer of the automobile or to use a tollbooth to leave his driveway. Just from casual observation this relationship is openly hostile to the purchaser in that their choices are being removed from them. In effect your policy is stating that the user need only know or use what you tell them to and that by purchasing their product they have no free will of their own nor deserve any respect for such. A company so openly disrespectful of it's customers would normally be closed down by consumer advocacy groups. Whether you change your policy enough to avoid that remains to be seen.
I suggest you alter your policies to reflect several different ideas:
1) Respect for the user and his/her intelligence and spirit. Without this you will fail to achieve ANY good sales and your products will be returned to you eventually - either through your return department or through, in the worst case, a court of law.
2) User upgradability of hardware and software. Without this you will fail to keep customers for any real amount of time and eventually, through word of mouth and other forms of communication, you will have none. See point 1 again.
3) Advanced user compatibility:
a) Without this your product will only be bought by new users who will eventually move on to a more powerful product and hand your product to another new user. This is a losing game. There will be a point at which current new users cease to purchase your product because an advanced user has given them an existing unit of your manufacture. The sales of even your new models will slow down because of your failure to allow for use by advanced users.
b) Advanced users will not purchase your product for themselves and will be more likely to fail to recommend your product to others because of the idea that "Well, new users should really get something 'real' that they will use to become better users." New users, in most cases, only stay new users for a very short period of time before they become more advanced and increase the number/range of their abilities. Failing to take that into account will kill you every time.
c) Advanced users are often of a mind to learn more and more - as are most people. To this end they will often purchase a product "just to see what we can do with it". It is this mentality, and mainly this mentality, that is the reason your company exists in the first place. Without this mentality and the ability to act on it NOT ONE PIECE of the computer industry, including your company, would exist. Indeed probably nothing more than simple machines would probably be in existence and we would probably be living in an agrarian dark age with no major means of support. In preventing this you are setting the example to others of a path that will cut our own throats technologically and stagnate the very lifeblood of your company and others.
I suggest the following changes:
1) Offer a Netpliance device that perhaps costs a small amount more but can be easily used with any Internet service without modification but offer your service as an option. This will cover purchases to new users who already have an Internet Service Provider but would like to use your product.
2) Offer a bundled Netpliance device that has a "discount" for using your Internet Service Provider. This will be attractive to new users who want a simple "plug and go" system. Perhaps make a deal with AOL for "bring your own access" connections to their services.
3) Offer a plain Netpliance device that has no warranty and is a little more expensive than the version purchased for use with the customer's own Internet Service Provider but also has no restrictions on what can be done with it. This device will appeal to the advanced user who wishes to purchase your product for use in some capacity that you have not yet foreseen.
Making these three changes will cover all users regardless of type and experience level and also allow you to charge different prices for your product thus making more money on it.
The choice is yours - stagnate and die or expand and live.
The Tick - "Spoon!"
"Bah!" - Dogbert
But the issue isn't about the price of the hardware. The number of slashdotters who will actually purchase and successfully modify an i-opener is negligible compared to their true potential customer base.
The backers of Netpliace aren't hoping to sell hardware, or even dial-up service. The real goal is in having control to users' access to information. That's where smart money is nowadays. Why do you think Microsoft and Compuserve were offering those huge rebates?
In Oregon and California, courts have ruled that such penalty contracts are unenforceable. You should have seen the lines at Office Depot before Microsoft cancelled their deal. In actuality, they would still be making a profit, and quickly, from the honest (or ignorant) dial-up subscribers. The problem was that they realized that ANYONE could cancel their service and go through another portal.
The reason all the money is going into the internet isn't because people think that online pet stores are going to sell more gritty kitty to point and click shoppers, but because the real stake in the internet is the control of information flow.
I should think that not many companies would support the selling of "older" technology. I dislike how many companies sell the latest and greatest without supporting any "older" models. Heck, all i want is a 2.5G hard drive and a NEW one is very difficult to find anywhere :(
I looked up the specs of the i-opener and compared the component prices with my wholesaler. While I can't reveal the breakdown, the total cost for the components is around $160-200 (assuming 1000 lots).
They sell the box for a loss but make it up on the $21/mo service fee. This is exactly the same business model the video game manufacturers use. The super-advanced 3D graphics chips in the PlayStation are cost way more than the selling price, but Sony makes it up in license fees for the games.
Hence why Sony is attacking Bleem so ferociously, and the same reason Netpliance is beating on their corresponding "open hardware" hackers: it destroys their business model.
TANASTAAFL indeed.
If you avoid the contract of using the freaking 'internet dialup' ......then...you ARE stealing..... there is NO other way to look at it. I *would* buy the box, 99$ and then buy the service for 3 months (~65$) ....then THIS would be legal, but all you people can justify it ...it is still stealing.... I had to resist going out and buying this box [would look soo cool next to the jon], I did not buy it...and I put the money in a good place......paintball gun.
Wacked-Support NT
See this link on the NetBSD website.
When I did electronic repair for airline equipment, some circuit boards would be covered with a plastic substance that would not come of unless you hit it with a hammer, which did wonders for the circuit board;). if they used that substance it would be impossible to screw with the mother board at all.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Superglue would eat away all the traces it could -- and not just the IDE ones. What you'd have left would be an I-paperweight.
--
Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
I guess this makes sense if they are only selling the machines at a loss to get people on their service. On the other hand, i thought that they were happy that all of the sudden there were thousands of slashdotters interested in buying their equipment.
Oh well, what states are these sort of agreements invalid in again?
The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.
Ok, I may be *way* off base here, but..
Isn't bundling one product with the requirment of a use of another against the law? According to what they are requiring, it's not a refund, discount, etc, for using their service. One requires the other, and if you buy it, you *MUST* use their service, according to their supposed 'Terms of Service', which seems very vacant from their site for some reason..
I understand what and why they are doing this, but they are making it seem like something it's not, which is not legal. They are selling a cheap internet device, at a loss, without telling you you *MUST ALWAYS* use their internet service with it..
It's like buying a Toyoto, and being told you must now buy Toyoto brand gas, imported direct from Japan, for 20$ a gallon.
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
Plenty of people can get hold of a PC case, fit the motherboard of their choice, etc. Plenty of small mail-order firms started exactly this way. I don't see Dell or Compaq going under, any time soon, from them. (You could even buy Dell computers, and re-use any higher-end components in your own computers. Nothing to stop you.)
If you buy Red Hat, you're free to tweak it as you will, and re-sell the finished product, openly stating it as a derivative, if you wish. Who's going to raise a stink?
Fact is, the "bottom line" is nowhere near as impacted by the hobbyist arena as accountants would have you believe. Rather, the hobbyist market has a proven track record of dragging in additional users in excess of the hobbyists' ability to supply. (The effects of the Apple I/II and the ZX 80/81 on public perception massively outweighed the market share either of these ever took.)
The =REAL= "bottom line" is that if you deny the hobbyists, they'll go elsewhere and help in developing your competitor's market and product.
We've seen it all before. Games drove graphics cards design, and graphics cards drove CPU design. If those hobbyists hadn't started with trying to get Spacewar and Pong going on affordable machines, you wouldn't have the high-end CAD market today. Nobody would have thought of it. And without lots of number-crunching apps (such as graphics packages) around, who would have bothered with developing fast FPU's?
The only company that blocks 3rd-party development is one that's just killed itself.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Oh, that's ridiculous. They may be selling these as 'loss leaders' and they may want you to use their service after you purchase one, but if you pay what they're asking to purchase an i-Opener then you OWN it.
It's not a lease. It's not rental. It's a purchase. Opening it up and modifying it to make it do something else is no more stealing than buying a Playstation and letting it sit in a closet. Both are situations that result in a monetary loss for the manufacturer, but that's one of the risks they take by relying on their business model.
Theft, indeed!
What would it take to _really_ lock this thing down?
Disclaimer - I think NetPliance is a pretty cool company, and I'd hate to see them fail as a result of this attention. They've certainly gotten a lot of press lately, which can't hurt, and hopefully offsets the monetary losses to the hardware-hacking geeks...
---
Their web site says:
... so pay for one month of service, then cancel.
By purchasing the i-opener you are agreeing to use the i-opener Internet service. The fee is $21.95 a month and will be billed approximately 2 days after the i-opener is shipped to you.
Ok
Modification of the i-opener in any way is in violation of our terms and conditions.
I can't find their terms of service on their site. Anyone have the complete terms of service?
I'm pretty sure that the doctrine of first sale applies here. Since they are selling the box to you, you have the right to do with it as you wish, whether that be replace the operating system, or use it as a pavement stone.
Anyway, several states explicitly forbid the tying of a purchased item with a subscription service.
If this is their business model, then they have shot themselves in the foot. The package they are selling (hardware plus service) has a higher salvage value (the hardware is the salvage item) then the initial purchase cost. They should have known better.
Remember the great deals one could get in California, with the MSDN bundling with a computer? Microsoft didn't bother trying to make the internet service legally bound to the computer, because they knew it was so blatantly against California law, that they with their DOJ-fighting legal department, was certain to lose.
:-)
Netpliance should try keeping up with industry news. Watch for the price of the I Opener to rise soon, as they find that the loss leader strategy will still fail.
Also watch for a failing IPO.
Oh, and as far as making it tamper-proof: Keep in mind that the original hacker was able to see through their reversed IDE port. Unless they switch to an unflashable BIOS, that doesn't support hard drives, Netpliance's attempts at that will also fail, I believe.
I don't see how they could have modified the hardware so quickly to do this. Some discussion on i-opener-linux.net (where I saw this story last night) considered whether this was possible or not, and the upshot was that maybe the BIOS could have been modified, but there hasn't been time for a hardware modification. And BIOS that has been changed once can certainly be changed again (although this might be difficult w/o a floppy drive). The terms-of-service argument doesn't bother me at all, since I didn't agree to any at Circuit City, and I don't plan to even boot the thing until after adding a Linux drive and so forth. You only see the warning linked from the story above if you buy an i-opener from Netpliance's site.
I ordered my i-opener on 3/16, so I'm not sure if this announcement will apply to it or not. I haven't received it yet, but on the other hand it may have been shipped from Netpliance before 3/20, and just not received by Circuit City yet. If the worst case is true and it's unhackable, my CC receipt allows for 14-day returns (with 15% restocking fee).
It is strange how Netpliance has bounced back and forth on the mod issue - sometimes they seem to be really cool about it, but then they go and do something like this. I hope the open, "friendly" personality eventually comes through, because I'd be happy to recommend one of these to a relative who wanted a simple web browsing appliance, and I'd even consider buying a more-expensive i-opener-type device which was specifically designed for modification. Meaning more and more accessible serial/parallel/USB ports, VGA output, a slightly larger case to allow more room for onboard drives, etc., official developer's information such as pinouts, etc.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
From their site:
HITACHI 10.4" LCD SCREENS
300 pcs Hitachi 10.4" Dual Scan LCD screen model LMG9300XUCC, new pulls. As low as $90.00each for the lot! DA408
So the screens by themselves are available for fairly cheap prices if someone is willing to just go out and hack together a system. Mainly you would need to find an embedded PC system which has an onboard LCD driver (available quite commonly in industry), wire together, add a hard drive, enet if necessary, and that would be all.
Several embedded versions of Linux floating around (look at http://www.linuxdevices.com) that would work great.
If you read the articles about this you will realize that the hardware is so cheap because they are anticipating sales of the service. They actually loose money when they sell the hardware w/o the service. So this company that uses some really neat technology (QNX) is going to go under if they keep selling cheap toys to linux geeks without selling their service.
Think about that before you get terribly upset at them for forcing you to buy the service, or changing the machine so that it can't be moded. These people are struggling to make a buck just like the rest of us. Also I think we should be supportive of companies who are seeking alternatives to Microsoft products in light weight appliances. We need more companies like this to enhance competition so that we see more innovation.
Jeff
What's the big deal! This is _NOT_ complicated. The pricing is analogous to a cell phone. If you agree to a two year contract, the phone is *FREE*. a.k.a. Sign up for i-opener service and the box is $99. --or-- If you pay $199 fro this neat phone, we won't lock you into any long commitments. a.k.a. You can buy this no-strings-attachedf i-opener for (what's a fair price?) 300? 400? 500? Then you can pay for i-opener service month-to-month or not at all. Think about how little cell phone companies care what you actually do with the phones as long as you fulfill your contractual obligation. As long as you have a rational pricing model, all of these "oh my gods the nerd are opening them up" worries vanish. I just don;'t get it.
www.avacal.com -- the home page of pete shaw
With Regards to pressuring them for a 'linux-ready,' 'easier to modify' model, this is there nice reply to a letter I sent them. I also asked for a copy of the QNX license, and the root password:
=-==-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Dear XXXXX
We appreciate your interest in our product and our company.
We understand that a group of individuals recently developed a way to run
the Linux operating system on the i-opener by making modifications to the
hardware and removing our software. The modifications allow these highly
technical users to bypass the i-opener service network. These modifications
are isolated to the i-openers purchased by those individuals and have no
impact whatsoever on the Netpliance service network or its customers.
It's worth noting that the work-around these individuals developed does not
provide them with free Internet service. While it has opened up a complex
route to other Internet Service Providers, virtually all of our i-opener
customers have no interest nor the technical skills in manipulating the
complex inner workings of the device to achieve that goal. i-opener
customers are looking for one thing: simple, inexpensive Internet access
without a computer. As this is our primary audience, we do not provide
documentation regarding the QNX operating system.
That said, the small community of users who developed this work-around
actually offer a complement to the core technology behind the i-opener -
that it's robust enough to run an operating system like Linux. Netpliance
does not endorse the modification of the i-opener device to possibly support
alternative operating systems or other uses. However, these developments
have uncovered an additional opportunity that Netpliance had not been
focusing on, but will now consider. We'll keep you updated as to how
Netpliance plans to work with the growing community of Linux developers.
Regards,
Kristi Copeland
Director - Sales and Support
However... This would mean that I would not receive the same product that I ordered, and that I never agreed upon these new terms and conditions upon ordering the product. Right?
I guess they might have wrapped the unit the same way lots of software is distrubuted -- by breaking the shipping package you agree upon the terms...
I need some small, cheap, durable Linux machines to use as web kiosks. It sounded like these I-Opener things might do the job nicely, once fitted with some manner of ethernet. But I guess not any more.
The thing that's killing me here is that I'd really like to have flat-screens, since real monitors are just too damned big. But you can't get a flat-screen for less than around $1500, which is way too expensive.
Is it possible to re-use just the flat-screen from these I-Opener devices? Can you just plug them in to another computer, or are they specialized hardware? Because an 800x600 flat-screen for $99 still sounds like a good deal to me.
Any other suggestions for how to do kiosks cheaply?
In particular, I want something that you stand in front of, and that doesn't take up a lot of floor space.
The bottom line is all powerful in a public held company. Netpliance literally *had* to do something about this situation or else the stock holders would likely have filed suit against them. They probably had no choice. I like Netpliance, I bought their stock when it tanked because I liked the way they responded. As a stock holder, I'm glad they took action to keep the other stock holders happy and hopefully to force the stock value in the positive direction again. As an open source advocate, I'm hopeful that they'll follow this short term action with some moves more like what they claim they wanna do (which is to work with the open source guys and the Linux guys in particular to get more applications ported to their tiny footprint machine). Personally, I believe they will. They just had to do what they did to keep the shareholders off their back for a while.
I just called to check my order. When I asked if I would get the new one, the rep asked why. When I explained I wanted to be able to have full control of it he cancelled my order because I expressed interest in violating the terms of service. :(
-Davidu
# Hack the planet, it's important.
Look, the manufacturer was stupid to not have an air-tight contract required you to use their service. That should have been in place the day they shipped their first unit. But to modify the unit and avoid using their service still feels to me like you would be running a rip-off on the manufacturer.
No way are they able to manufacture the device for $99. It should be really clear to all of you that they were intending to amortize the cost through their online service.
Us Open Source folks are supposed to be more ethical than the rest of the software crowd. This whole deal puts a really bad taste in my mouth.
If anyone else has a pending order and intended to modify the device, please cancel your order.
Thanks
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
And I had one on order from Circuit City, too. This'll be interesting - a whole lot of people have ordered them from Circuit City and put deposits down - and now when/if they arrive theoretically they are no longer modifiable.
Well, if we all cancel our orders then suddenly there will be a huge inventory of these things piled up in Circuit City's stores, and Netpliance'll have some issues to deal with there...
I think I'll look and see what happens when the order arrives - maybe the box has a production date. If that's the case and it's a new, supposedly unmodifiable one then I'll just refuse it, given that it's not the unit I ordered. This whole thing has serious amusement potential.
What Netpliance should have done is considered moving upscale a little bit. Imagine almost that exact same unit shipped with a small hard drive, an Ethernet jack instead of a modem, and a P233MMX for $200-$250 or so as an Internet terminal for business. To heck with PC's, I'd buy a coupe of dozen for my company at that price. If $50-$75 more could get a TFT screen instead (remember, it's only a 10.4" screen and those are relatively cheap) it would still be a no-brainer. The ISP service is fine, but it's brilliant hardware packaging and design.
- -Josh Turiel
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
I suspect this affects only web-based purchases. I will also point out they are cutting off a revenue stream - these are perfect birthday presents for people who are maybe not as computer-literate as you or I (like our parents). Increasing the price and/or forcing this kind of TOS makes that kind of purchase impossible... which is very unfortunate.
It's a nice idea.. and having them use linux was a neat hack.. I would pressure them to come out with a "linux-ready" version at a higher price.. as you must recognize that they can't support their revenue model with us eating into it - $99 probably does not even cover wholesale costs of the device.
This device sounds exactly like what FreePC tried. Remember them? Hey, get a free PC, all you have to do is agree to look at our ads. Every geek I know said "Dude, I'll hack the system! I'll fix it so i never have to look at ads, *and* I'll get a free computer! I'll set up fake accounts and get a dozen!" There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. The PC was free because it was a loss leader. At least they were smart enough to put you into a contract right from the beginning. To get around that deal by simply failing to hold up your end of the contract, well, that's not a hack, that's just plain illegal and doesn't take a great deal of intelligence.
I used to have a boss in my first job who liked to say (being a lifelong salesman), "Give away the razor. Sell the blades." During meetings when a good idea came up, he would ask "What's the razor? What's the blade?" The razor is the PC. The blade is the monthly service.
Netpliance's problem seems to have been that they forgot to lock in the contract up front. Somebody in there must have figured that only people who want the service would get the machine, since after all that's all the machine was good for. That was their mistake, underestimating the power of geeks who smell a free lunch. Yes, to hack their device was very cool indeed. But to set up a small business whose purpose was solely to buy them by the dozen, hack them, and then resell them? I'm glad netpliance closed the loophole. (Note, I don't know for a fact that anybody did that -- but almost everybody I heard did say that they were buying them in plurals, so I can quite logically assume that the most rabid free lunchers would be buying them by the dozen).
And how many people actually did the math? Ok, $100 box. Personally for me, not being a hardware hacker, I figure it's going to take me several hours to do the necessary soldering and such. The first time (since I'd only buy one), it might take what, 4? If somebody wanted me to work on installing software and hard drives for a living, what would I ask for pay? $150/hr? Ok, so now it's a $700 device. I have to put a hard drive in the thing, right? How big do I want to go? Plus what do the other parts cost? So maybe I throw another $200 or so into it? Now it's a $900 device. Throw in the shipping most people paid, the throw-away first month of ISP service, etc etc... and you're up over $1000 very likely. For those that primarily wanted the flat screen, ok, this is still a good deal. But it's one hell of an expensive MP3 player, if that was your plan.
Lastly, I love the logic of people that say "This is actually good for Netpliance, because most of the hardware hackers that buy them will never hack them, and just end up giving them away as gifts or something." How pray tell does that make Netpliance any more money? It doesn't, unless you count the slashdot effect as a marketing technique.
So, to sum up. Some clever hacker found a loophole, and benefited from it. Many followed. But there ain't no such thing as a free lunch, it was never Netpliance's intention to give away $100 machines for no return, and now it's closed. Don't whine about it. Go be a clever hacker and find the next loophole to exploit, and act a little quicker next time.
d
www.HearMySoulSpeak.com