Slashdot Mirror
Professor Sues teacherreview.com Site Operator
CmdrPorno writes "ZDTV's [Cybercrime Section] reports that the fellow who created the teacherreview.com Web site is being sued by one of the professors who claims he was defamed on the site." Oh, my. Someone said something bad about someone else on the Internet? Maybe I should sue Slashdot for every AC that's said something about the quality of my writing. Seriously, take a look at this, although some of the language is questionable.
As a former teacher (laboratory and lecture instructor) I have to say that we don't see the reviews until well after grades are reported (at least here at the University of Arkansas). Anyway, I'm torn between thinking this is protected under the First Amendment and prohibited under privacy laws. I know that teachers are prohibited from publicly posting student's grades (or any other reports on their progress) in a way that can identify them, unless you get their prior written approval. Since this site identifies the professors and publicly rates their professional skills, would this fall under the same criteria?
That might depend on who/how many people saw them in your home. You see you have a right to defend a trespass to your reputation, just as you have a right to defend a trespass against anything else you own. If you took the sign and nailed it to your front fence you would almost certainly be guilty of defamation.
My website is my home. It doesn't "post information to the net"
Again the important consideration is how many people could see it. If your web-site is on a machine which is connected to a publically accessible network, then it is like nailing it to your front fence. You would be trespassing on the property the victim has in their own reputation.
What you're talking about is thought control.
Nope, 'mind control' would be 1) or 3). You can think what you like, it's only when you come trespassing on my good name, by affecting the contents of the minds of third parties, that I'll hunt you down and skin you (legally speaking).
Stroustrup?!?! For learning? You've got to be kidding. Stroustrup is a good authority to go to when you have a very specific question about C++. It's TERRIBLE as a tutorial or learning guide. (Don't get me wrong--you NEED to buy Stroustrup. But you won't use it often.)
Try Thinking in C++ by Bruce Eckel (which comes out in a new edition very soon) in combination with The C++ Standard Library by Josuttis.
on Polk street. That's just plain ludicrist. Everyone knows the best place to find male hustlers is on Main street!!
For example, if I burn a cross at a black church to express my free speech, I can be busted for a hate crime, and trespassing, and vandalism, etc. If I, living across the street from a black churck, burn a cross on my own lawn, to express my free speech, courts would be hard pressed to find a basis from which to prosecute me (save for fire code violations) any more than they could prosecute someone for having a KKK bumpersticker or a rebel plate on their car.
It struck me as a much better book than the one they used here for the intro classes, (written at least partially by Perry--don't take her class, I'm not even going to speculate about little boys on Hillsborough St. ;) but that isn't saying much.
Whatever happened to the K&R book? Oh wait, that's C. Mommy, why aren't they writing in C?
But to be fair, I was really interested in what Stroustrup had to say about programming in C++ with the STL. I'm amazed that it's such a well-written class library that it can be more efficient than flat-out C code for simple things...
---
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
I have a question.
If someone drew a graffiti on the wall of one of my building, and the graffiti contains remarks slandering one particularly person, am I, the onwer of the building, be responsible for the slandering?
I can understand that if I am the "artist" who drew the graffiti, then I may be sued for slander.
But if I am just the owner of the building its walls are painted with tons and tons of graffiti, with one of them sladering one particular person, why should I be charged?
It's the same thing as the case where that professor sues the website owner - the owner of the website is NOT the writer of the message, and if the professor has REAL GUTS, he should go after the writers of those slandering message himself.
Methinks the professor has neither the guts nor the wits to know that the problem doesn't stem from the messages but himself.
If he is a GOOD professor (I've had several), people (at least most of them) will not do such a thing to him. Even if that happens, there will be others who will come to his aid.
I mean, if I see one of my favorite professors being slandered, I will defend his honor, as good professors are hard to come by.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
"Can you imagine the professor sitting in class while the webmaster's lawyer calls student after student who says the class is a waste of time?"
I can more easily imagine him sitting in court as they probably wouldn't try the case without him present.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Henceforth he will be know as Professor Cyber-Brown.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
I'll try to stop thinking "Curzon-Dax" long enough to say this--
I know you can be sued in civil court for slander and libel, but whether it's done on line, in the newspaper, or on the side of a bus, is it really a *crime*?
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Disclaimer : My opinion may be a bit biased, because several of my friends operate teacherreviews.com along with the defendant in this case. I'm also marginally involved with the site. (ObPushyComment - it's not affiliated with any school, and it's got reviews for schools all over the world -- see if your school is there and see how your profs rate)
That being said, I give sites like this quite a lot of weight. I avoided the worst profs at UMD whenever possible thanks to a good site (now defunct). I also wasn't able to avoid some of the bad professors (scheduling) -- and believe me, the reviews tend to be accurate. Yes, some people have a chip on their shoulders -- but once you have 3 or 4 independent reviews, you generally have a decent base to form an opinion on. And the best professors, while sometimes controversial, get some extremely positive reviews.
I personally feel that the aforementioned site helped me get a better college experience -- I was able to focus in on the best teachers and get the most for my (parents) money.
"It's a cybercrime. It's cyberevil," Curzon-Brown told CyberCrime correspondent Jennifer London.
Is it just me, or is the word cyber used waaay too much these days?
I think this Curzon-Brown person is just some crappy professor who thinks he can make himself some hefty cyber-cash by cyber-whining about some cyber-comments in cyber-space.
Get over it. Criticism usually happens for a reason. Take it as advice and change!
I set up something like this once for my school. As soon as it went up, it was flooded with extremely vulgar comments on a particular professor. The comments were not true, and were also not constructive. We decided to start approving posts before they went up, and now the message board is clean and useful, and although some professors are slammed on the page, no one can complain about libel.
If the volume on this site is prohibitive, or people would object on a free speech basis, then perhaps a slashdot-style moderation system would help cut down on the useless vulgarity. GPA could reflect a weighted average of comments by moderation.
Remember: free speech is important, but comments wrongly (or otherwise) commenting on the lifesyle choice of a professor, or ways in which students would like to maim said professor, is not going to help students choose classes, and will only serve to make the forum look bad.
You can have the department / faculty tie perks/promotions to the grades received from students. This will make them start to "care" about the opinions of the students pretty quickly. I don't believe the website is very helpful because web polls are notoriously biased and suffer from all sorts of ballot stuffing and representative-sample issues -- and this one is certainly no exception. On the other hand, student evaluations can often work quite well.
Nothing. In fact this is already done -- some schools offer teaching evaluations online. The big deal is that the content is allegedly false and defamatory. On the other hand , underground reviews and summaries of student evaluations are not typically peppered with illiteracy, defamatory remarks, and foul language.
It appears to me that the professor does have a case, though he has the rather difficult task of demonstrating that he was hurt by the material , to get a damages award. Getting a court order to have the comments removed is probably easier, though ironically, he's drawing more attention to those comments in the process !
I teach. The reviews aren't available to instructors until after the course is over. IMO, traditional evaluations are much better ( for the students, the prof and the university ) than this online junk.
BTW, you got the other part right -- we're not stupid, and if you have distinctive handwriting, there's a good chance we can tell who you are. We get so many students that we don't take the opinions of individual students terribly personally though.
IF you think this is my point, you've misunderstood me. No, I don't believe the laws need to be changed. I don't believe this case requires special treatment -- it should be judged by the existing criteria for defamation.
een some of your other posts on this forum regarding gatekeepers on such information, and you seem to be making a value judgement that the usefulness of collaborative discourse is negated by the ability of some to spread false information
Actually, I don't know what "collaborative discourse" you are talking about. The comments cited in the article didn't sound like "collaborative discourse" to me. If you want "freedom of information", and "accountability", the standard student questionaires are superior to this web forum.
Free speech is a good thing and all that, but spreading misinformation is not a right. I believe the website should be accountable for its content, especially if they choose to avail authors of accountability by allowing anonymous postings.
There are no "secrets".Students fill out evaluation forms every semester, and those forms are given varying degrees of disclosure -- either the faculty/school sees it or in some cases, it's made public.
It's misleading to say that professors can "secretly" do a bad job. If a professor is doing a bad job, it doesn't stay secret for very long.
In summary, the premise of your argument is completely false.
Another point I should make -- profs rarely let their preconceptions about a student influence their grading. When I'm doing the grading, my primary goal is to get the work done as quickly as possible without being unfair. I have a given quiz graded before I see the name on it -- reading the name is a waste of time. The point is that you can't spend too much time daydreaming about all your students when you have 150 test papers on your desk. 5 minutes per test is already 12.5 hours worth of work. IOW, it's not because the profs are all really ethical and scrupulous -- it's that they don't have the time or inclination to meditate on every single student when there's a pile of ungraded papers on their desk.
IMO, this is the wrong way to go about it. If there is no disclosure policy on student evaluations, there should be. This would be more appropriate, and more meaningful/helpful than one of these internet things.
I'd question whether he's "over-reacting". It certainly looks like he's been defamed.
The prof doesn't have that much time to run around after students. If a student wants to defame a prof full-time ( for example, by flooding the message board ), you can't really fight them.
This is wrong, and I'm speaking as someone who gives out grades. I know a lot of students share your thoughts ( this is the students point of view to some degree ) but they are simply wrong, because they don't try to see it from the prof's point of view. You can't improve your grades by brown-nosing. The profs will smile at the students who brown nose, then flunk them the next day ( if appropriate ) without a second thought. The truth is, that the prof wants to grade as quickly as possible without being unfair, and daydreaming about your preconceptions about a student simply wastes time. The prof hands out a grade based on the quality of the workj under his nose. Thinking about the student, the students prior record, etc slows down the process. Grading a big stack of papers takes a long time unless you're really efficient. I don't even look at the names on the papers while I'm grading -- I simply don't have time. If you'd ever tried dealing with a stack of 150 papers, you would understand this.
The obvious problem, however, is that his personality is overbearing and haughty. That IS something to take into consideration when signing up for a professor's class.
Odd though it may seem, being a "nice guy" doesn't help your evaluations much, if at all -- again, speaking from experience. The most important thing is to be fair in your grading. The second most important is to be realistic in your expectations ( ie don't flunk half the class ). Next on the list is probably giving good lectures. It's important to be respectful towards the students ( ie not outright rude or condescending ) but there are other issues which have more impact on ones grades.
Do you think directors and actors should be able to sue the IMDB is somebody put a bad review there? No, of course not. And this is the same thing. The site operator should not be responsible.
Damn... my ears are red :D
I hadn't read the posters other comments and assumed he was earnest in making his statements. I have to admit, it is a clever trolling device.
Common sense is what tells you the world is flat.
Oh wow... how brainwashed can a person get?
I think some member of this admirable forum needs to analyze the dogmas he holds so dear. Just because something was made with the intent to earn money doesn't make it a superior product. In my personal experience, IE is a pathetically flaky product, especially considering the fact that it was written by the same people who wrote the operating system it runs on.
I know objectivism is fun, but don't get dogmatic like that, or you won't be any better off than the people you deride.
Common sense is what tells you the world is flat.
Lemme see...so you are saying that this teacher sucks because her class assignments actually count for something, because she expects her students to be responsible enough to turn their assignments in on time, and because the subject matter was over your head? Dude, it's people exactly like you that changed my mind about becoming a teacher. Everybody bemoans the fact that there aren't enough good teachers in the world, and yet when a teacher tries to hold her students to a higher standard look how she gets treated. College should not be like high school, where students get to pass just so they can "feel good about themselves" or some crap like that. If you can't understand the material in a classroom, how the fsck do you expect to handle it in the real world? If your boss fires you because you blow a project, are you going to bitch that he's "unfairly" making every project count for too much?
Although I wouldn't be so cruel as to suggest lethal injection, a stiff slap upside the head might do you a bit of good.
There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.
This doesn't seem to be the case here. According to the Disclaimer submisions are added directly to the database without any intervention by the people running the site. It's also stated several times that the subject matter is the opinion of the individual and nothing more.
Sites like ebay face the same issues. Once you start filtering some content you suddenly become responcible for all the content.
Personally I prefer the "hands off" approach.
What's wrong with the D&D book? I'm taking Comp Sci II right now, and we're using the D&D book. I suppose I should know about the shortcomings of the book, but then again, I *am* jawad....
You really shouldn't classify these kids as upper/middle class. You complain about homophobia and then you go pigeonhole them into one socioeconomic group without even a clue as to their real background. It seems to me you're pretty certain who you think these people are, based on nothing more than your stereotype of the typical spoiled college kid.
You should be glad, because it seems like you escaped college without having a plain old crappy professor. I'm three years in and I've already had this experience a couple of times. It's different than just having a tough professor - that I can deal with. What pisses me off is an instructor who doesn't take the time to do things right. My software engineering class was a joke. Frequently the guy would show up to class just to say it was canceled, because his printer broke and he couldn't print out the lecture notes. Homework took over a month to grade at times. As the manager of our class project, he did a poor job of providing us direction and coordinating development. It's these types of situations that a review site helps for.
I have no doubt that the guy who is suing is a bad instructor. Why would they post those comments otherwise? I don't accept the explanation that they're pissed off that they got bad grades. If everyone in the class got bad grades, well, there's your proof that he's a crappy teacher. If he was just a tough but good teacher, there would be a number of good reviews of him by people who enjoyed his class and got good grades. This doesn't seem to be the case.
Just one more example in the large list of reasons why ZD really, really sucks. I actually get the ZDTV channel, half the time it's this weird animated Lara wannabe telling me the latest gadgets I should buy.
I find it hard to take notes and listen to lecture at the same time. I avoid this problem by not going to class.
Maybe I should sue Slashdot for every AC that's said something about the quality of my writing.
I was under the impression you can't sue someone for stating the truth.
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
this has happened many times over the past while-through various mediums including the internet-one that got publicity a couple years ago was www.raymondsucks.org (looks like he didnt pay his internic fee) wherein a hs student made a page stating his opinions about his teacher and got kicked out of school-similar cases are outlined here if one is interested-found it while trying to find a backup for raymondsucks.org which after all the dust settled kept links to all the news articles about itself (a case that ended with an out of court settlement) but yah-heres the link for those who are interested:
http://www.jmls.edu/cyber/index/educ.html
latre
-eric
well done, guys. Even if this man is bad in his job: the reactions of many of his students (and even more the reactions of those who never were his students) probably have pretty much destroyed his reputation in his job and his private life. May be even destroyed his life. The net gives people a huge audience. It doesn't make a difference between intelligent and stupid people, between thoughtful and cruel people. The language one can read on this website makes it hard to believe that those who are writing are really students.
Sure: not court, but the internet community itself should control the net. But noone has the right to destroy another one's life.
Hell, I don't come to any conclusion here...may be everyone should just take a moment to think twice about what to post on the net.
Ayn Rand wasn't brainwashed, She was a psychopath. Where do you think all these brainwashed idiots get there ideas? Mostly from her. Check out the link to aynrand.org and see her ideas your self
The above poster is using her name for comic effect (and quite well, I might add).
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Posted by LocalH on 07:50 AM March 27th, 2000
from the why-the-hell-is-this-happening dept.
Former geek icon-wannabe JonKatz is suing Slashdot for allegedly defaming him through AC postings. When asked for comment, he replied simply, "I'll get those bastards...I'll get them good...". Several ACs were also asked for comment. Their response was one of the following:
- "Natalie Portman naked and petrified!"
- "First post!"
- "Second post!"
- "Pour hot grits down my pants!"
- "Natalie Portman naked and petrified pouring hot grits down my pants while I'm getting first post!"
(Moderators: mod this down if you really, really feel you must...)_______
Scott Jones
Newscast Director / ABC19 WKPT
Commodore 64 Democoder
FC Closer
speedtraps.com: updated list of speed trap locations and schedules, geographically sorted.
:)
Try www.speedtrap.com -- its been done
I really like the idea of a website to review professors. I even took the time while visting it to add a review for dear old Dr. Han, my user interface teacher. How can a man be so bad at communication and become the HEAD of the CS department.
(A fictional example)
Us - Dr. Han what's your first name?
Dr. Han - I have a first name.
U - But what is it?
D - It's on the syllabus, how could you not know it.
U- Uhh, okay, where's the syllabus you didn't give one out.
D - It's all on my webpage, everything you need is on my webpage.
U - Couldn't you just tell us.
D - My first name is in the teacher directory, didn't you get one?
(and on and on and on)
Sigh, I'm done with that class, but I have another class with him this quarter...
...but they certainly can't sue the city for having a street there for me to scream in.
And yet we still have the tobacco and gun lawsuits.
...who are pissed because they got some bad grades.
I've seen this crap before. Remember those kids in your high school who got all these great grades because they crammed a lot? I never crammed, got a lot of bad grades in high school (except sciences and math, the useful stuff), yet approached a 4.0 GPA throughout college. (still not cramming) Most of those "promising" students ended up flunking or dropping out of college. The main reason was because their goal in high school was "get to college/university." When they got there they found out that they didn't have a goal beyond that. Ooops. The other big reason is that high school was easy for them, socially and academically. This will often create a high level of arrogance.
All of a sudden mommy & daddy are wondering what's wrong with little Suzie (ObProLinuxSlashdotStatement: Not SuSE. SuSE rocks!) or Billy, they used to get good grades. You see, College/University is a challenge. (academically and socially) I actually enjoyed it, which resulted in good grades. Many of these kids were used to the their high school routines, which didn't quite work so well in post-secondary.
So here we are, with these arrogant (often middle/upper class) kids who aren't getting their way and not realising that they simply suck at writing.
Just read those posts. I did. What I found was a lot of terrible writers complaining about a "hard" teacher. From my experience, the hard teachers are the best. You're lucky you can get one. The lazy ones may give you a good grade (most high school teachers, though I had a couple of great ones that everybody else hated, the hard ones), but you probably won't learn anything useful.
As for cramming, what's the point? If you don't know a subject you don't know a subject. Sure, you might get a good grade, but you'll know fuck-all two years down the road when you need it.
So if mommy & daddy are mad, maybe you should have taken a word processing course and became a secretary. How about driving a street cleaner? A garbage truck? You get a paycheck, I get someone to handle my calls or a cleaner neighborhood. Someone has to do it, and you can be sure that if you continue writing, I won't read it.
Sorry about the rant, but the comments on the site pissed me off. (especially the homophobic ones) There were some good criticisms, the teacher shouldn't have used a book he wrote in class. That's just wrong. However, I've seen a lot of kids complain about bad marks without realising that they earned those bad marks and should either improve or face the fact that just aren't cut out.
Phew.
IANAL, but I am taking communications law, and you're right, the comment about Polk Street is an opinion--rhetorical hyperbole, they call it, because it's something that no intelligent person would read literally--but a comment like "sometimes Brown sneakily changes his name" sounds pretty libelous to me, if it's not true.
I think I'd put my money on the professor here. He's not a public figure, and there probably wasn't any "reasonable care" taken to see whether or not the editorial was true or not. What will be interesting will be if the webmaster can be found responsible for the libel. To my knowledge, courts haven't made up their mind about that. These reviews sound a lot like newspaper editorials, though, and a newspaper can be found negligent for publishing letters to the editor that are libelous.
Oh my goodness. Someone wrote an anonymous critique of a person and hid behind their anonymity on the web. Oh golly geewillackers! What's next anonymous remailers and USENET postings? What will this ever come to? That was sarcasm.
Romanes eunt domus? People called Romanes, they go the 'ouse? It says Romans go home. No it doesn't. What's Latin fo
A Republican? Being accused of Homophobia? Frankly, it's not surprising, given the history of the party, and the current practices of its presidential candidates. The fact is, you're a member of a group that *does* discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. That's your choice. No offense was intended by this post. I'm aware that not all Republicans are homophobes, but the party line is homophobic.
Moderaters: It's not flamebait if it's true.
Become a FSF associate member before the low #s are used
"?theme song?"
Using FrontPage by any chance?
Privacy laws do not cover protecting the professors this way. The professor is getting paid to do a professional job (by the student) and if they are not doing a good job then they deserve the poor public review.
They are using NT. Most of the site is done in ASP I believe...
------------------------------------ Step into my Office... WhY? Cuz your %$#$ing Fired...
http://www.whosaprick.cx
all was good in the world - except that we had to code in VC++ for the final project. :)
:)
Not to start a pointless war over programming environments, but I feel that, for an IDE, VC++ is pretty good. The compilation was pretty good, and it's customizable enough to make me happy. The later versions have some nice features too, that make object oriented programming a LOT easier (less having to flip back and forth between class definitions and source code).
Of course, for what I do now, my development environment is the classic: vi + gcc
I don't know about the ACLU in particular, but I'm sure that many similar organizations post their prominent defeats as well. I know for a fact that People for the American Way does. Even taking a cynical view of it, they should do so in order to provoke outrage from their readers at the outcome and encourage them to send donations to prevent similar defeats in the future.
--
The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must cover
Yhtill forever. (R. W. Chambers, the King in Yellow)
The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must cover
Yhtill forever. (R. W. Chambers, the King in Yellow
after perusing all the reviews of this guy, I found that although there are quite a few positive reviews, it certainly looks like someone (more than likely the professor himself) is stuffing the ballot box, so to speak. There are multiple reviews (more than those combined by the webmaster) that are obviously of the same origin and sound like some kind of campy movie review (I laughed, I cried, it became a part of me).
Yet, this guy is complaining that people are stuffing the ballot box *against* him. Honestly, having never had this guy as a teacher I can't make an informed judgement, but the number of reviews that refer to the volume of students who drop his classes, and the fact that this guy assigns his own literary work in introductory English classes don't speak well for him. Of course, I've had teachers in other subjects (Economics, CS, etc.) who assign their own books, but none of them ever asked me to *critique* those books, or to write a paper about them. Talk about putting unnecessary pressure on the student. Plus, focusing an English 1A course on gay literature is like taking History 101 and spending a semester talking about the Franco-Prussian war.
Frankly, I think this teacher's off his rocker, and the first thing I would do as a defendant is put the guy up as a witness, followed by as many students of his (that received decent grades) I could find, and I'm sure many would volunteer.
The actual meaning of "an eye for an eye" in its original context is: ONLY an eye for an eye -- that is, proportional punishment, not a life for an eye. It didn't mean "be sure to give them everything that's coming to them".
Why should the daily coursework count 1 iota towards the final grade? Shouldn't the grade of the course indicate the level of mastery of the subject? All daily coursework does is drill the ideas. Exams that test for knowledge should be the ONLY things that make up a final grade mark.
of course, this is only my opinion...
The lawsuit is, very plainly, b.s.
/. sense), to provide some measure of validation and filtering.
That being said, I think comparisons between Slashdot and TeacherReview are limited, in that TeacherReview (a) doesn't provide for user-based moderation (none I could see, anyway), and (b) attempts to quantify poster opinions (similar to having a poll for each slashdot article).
The arguments of the suing professor don't make for a valid lawsuit, but instead illustrate why the professor/class grades should be taken with a large grain of salt. Hence the need for moderation (in the
I do realize that TR's AC Posting has the additional weight of representing the opinions of currently enrolled students.
Also, TR's top and bottom listings don't seem to be implementing a cutoff. I.E. a minimum number of reviews to include a prof in a top/bottom listing. That would also help. It would also eliminate most of the "A" professors. Again, take it with a grain.
At least in the US, truth is supposed to be a valid defense. Columnists can get off on reciting lists of the deceased associated with the Pres., even though it's tasteless and a bit cruel, as long as they don't step over the line and state (matter-of-factly) that he personally executed Vince Foster or something like that. And it apparently doesn't even need to be true, if it's obviously not meant to be taken seriously; if memory serves, it's darn hard to sue the _Weekly World News_ and such.
If memory serves, this is NOT the case in Canada, where spreading nasty-but-true rumors about, say, random MPs in print would be a BAD idea for legal reasons.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Hm. O'er here, it depends a LOT on the course. In undergrad CS courses with TAs, they may have a bit of authority to change the scores they assigned. On the other hand, objective criteria mean that unless there was an inconsistency or other mistake, there's usually not a whole lot of grounds to argue for points.
Judging from the reviews of [Curzon-]Brown, at least some of the reviewers feel that [C-]B grades bizarrely, like penalizing a student for not using "pretty" instead of "beautiful". Odd.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Er, wouldn't that be because everyone was tired of the Pilgrims harassing followers from the Church of England?
--
The other side is crowded. The dead have nowhere to go.
Is that really the law in the US?! Where I live you have to prove is that you're reputation was injured and (unless it falls within one of the per se categories) that you have suffered some damage.
It is a complete defence, of course, to prove that the stament is true. Clearly this is a radically different thing from expecting a plaintiff to prove a statement false.
- "Curzon is a tough teacher, but if you are willing to do the work your skills will improve. Most of the negative reviews in this section seem to come from people who were afraid. Curzon has no problem lettiing you know you are wrong, which seems to offend a lot of students. Take Curzon's class if you want to improve your writing skills."
Interesting how all the students who got D's and F's can only complain how he can't teach and that he's gay and so forth.Somewhat off-topic perhaps, but I have an experience similar to this. I'm a Christian white male and I had an English class with a teacher who was a feminist, a lesbian, and an atheist. Needless to say she didn't like me. I managed to pull off a D in her class (a higher score than most white males, who sat and complained about her blatant feminism) but mostly because I got frustrated and half way through the class I stopped trying. I would consider her a good professor just because if you didn't have the attitude that she could teach you something you didn't know, you weren't going to do well. I started off with a strong attitude towards learning, and no matter how hard she tried to push me down I busted my butt in that class. After awhile, I felt like all the work I was doing wasn't paying off, and I slacked.
IMHO, Professor Curzon should be proud of himself for getting such criticism. What does he do? Sues a webmaster because somebody said something bad about him. I probably would have had respect for the guy until he started trying to sue everybody who said something bad about him. Now he's just whining and I'd never even want to talk to the guy. I think by sueing the webmaster he's brought more negative publicity on himself than his students ever gave him.
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
Of course Web-Masters should be responsible for all of the posts on their site. For example, Hotmail should be held accountable for anything that any one of its millions of users could post in an email. Slashdot should be responsible for the actions of any anonymous poster. and ZDNet should certainly be responsible for my posting here. Because I am about to swear - Fuck, Cunt, Shit, Cock-Sucker, Crack-Whore..
Aside from common sense, and the fact that I am located over 10,000km away from ZDNet, and that no one from ZDNet has ever contacted me personally, they should most certainly be responsible for my swearing above.
Actually. I had Corn Flakes for breakfast this morning, and I think you should be able to sue the manufacturer for letting me live, because I have committed crimes in the past, and I am likely to commit them in the future, and if it wasn't for all the companies that provide me with food, then no crimes would be comitted.
jdigital.
:wq ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
That sounds like that guy Jeffk
What's wrong with the D&D book? I'm taking Comp Sci II right now, and we're using the D&D book. I suppose I should know about the shortcomings of the book, but then again, I *am* jawad....
I can't remember details (this was a year ago, and hell, I have problems remember what happened last week), but my impression of it was that it was:
a) Incomplete (as to with the latest ISO drafts and etc)
b) Didn't talk to much about design or technique (which is one of the reasons I like Stroustrup).
As someone pointed out below, Stroustrup is probably pretty bad if you are just starting programming. About the same as learning Perl from Programming Perl alone (though I did that, so maybe I'm just a masochist). I had already been programming C and C++ for maybe 1.5 years before that, and I was able to basically read right through.
I'm probably one of the many orphans picked up by the Deitel Bros. at the CS/EE Orphanage. :-)
:)
People actually like their books? This isn't a troll (at least not intentionally), I really am shocked that someone (mutiple someones?) actually liked the Deitel and Deitel books. I took intermediate C++ last year (kind of a mistake, I knew more that the lecturer), the main book was D & D C++. I flipped through it in the bookstore and put it back in utter disgust. Then I got Stroustrup and all was good in the world - except that we had to code in VC++ for the final project.
- The Associated Students and San Francisco City College have also been named in the lawsuit.
The guy is suing the college for actions that are in no way affiliated with the school itself. This reflects the strange "Why sue one person when you can sue everyone?" attitude that seems to have afflicted American lawyers and litigants lately. It's also a sure sign that someone is completely full of shit."Prejudice is wrong; you should hate everyone the same."
Please. The article did not say, "LOOKIE! HE SAID SOMETHING BAD!!!" The article is about a professor filing a suit because he was defamed in an open forum. Think before following the trend.
You can, however, be sued for a lot of money. To win, you would have to prove not only that the statement is false, but that it caused harm worthy of compensation.
This does raise the question of why they are suing the website. Don't these guys have some kind of disclaimer saying the site isn't responsible for user comments?
I thought it was good, I didnt have that one, but I have alot of good anti Religion quotes at http://ubernerd.org/quotes.html (they are kinda in with a bunch of other quotes). My personal favorite is:
And of all plagues with which mankind are curst,
Ecclesiastic tyranny's the worst.
-- Daniel Defoe
The Uber Nerd
By saying that racism, sexism, etc. are all the same kind of proves the point. So a black man's experience is the same as a white woman's? Huh? Have you gone and talked to any?
The old saying goes "What you see depends on where you sit". No one's going to question your opinions on straight white male republicans. You are obviously in a strong position to talk knowledgeably about your community.
But racism, sexism, and heterosexism are concepts built around the experience of not being white, male, or straight. Now it's pretty obvious to me that no amount of good intentions on your part is going to make your opinions on these matters a heck of a lot more insightful.
If I got one thing from feminism, it was learning that it didn't help to have an opinion on everything, and knowing when to shut the fsck up and let somebody else have a say. Give it a try!
Danny
If this is such a non-issue, why the hell is it deserving of my (and the rest of Slashdot's) attention?
Really, if this isn't just another run-of-the-mill defamation cases, and it actully deserves our attention, emmett certainly didn't give any indication whatsoever of that.
Emmett, please be more choosy.
-me
Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
Yes, but if the just pressure the ISP, there is nothing to stop Hulbert from repeatedly hiring a new ISP until they catch up with him again, is there?
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
actually, iirc (i'm an athiest raised lutheran) the whole "eye for an eye" thing started with the code of Hammurabi (sp?), who probably got himself mentioned in the bible because of the fact that he was an important Babylonian ruler...
Duh. Reengage brain.
-- Support Ometz le-Serev.
So.. Does this mean Slashdot is gonna get sued too?
;-)
- Steeltoe
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
So other students can choose better professors maybe? Anyways, I agree with your opinion. I've had my share of good and bad teachers too. Many of them should never teach.
;-). It's especially stupid when students gives reviews when they've never had the professor in question. They're using their anger from other teachers as fuel to the flames.
Somtimes this goes for students too, some students should never study
Teaching is the most underestimated and underprivileged profession nowadays.
- Steeltoe
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
I count myself extremely lucky that I go to a Canadian university where student reviews of teachers are not only tolerated, they're required.
Near the end of the semester, in every class, we fill out a Scantron-style sheet to grade the profs and TAs, with room for comments at the bottom. Everything's anonymous and usually quite carefully monitored for tampering. The results of those surveys directly results faculty assignment, pay and even the granting of tenure. And the profs are given the final results to see for themselves, with all comments retyped verbatim. I've been so used to it that - silly me - I figured that such a system would certainly be in place at private US colleges where competition for good students and tuition money is so much fiercer. It's sure not sounding like it.
On top of this, many departmental student unions have student-run "anticalendars" which allow students to air their opinions where other students can see them. Some profs even hand out their own feedback sheets. And, funnily enough, when they give the students a place to be heard and respected, there's remarkably little abusive language.
My university has a clause in its' (rather draconian) Student Code of Conduct, which states that nobody can enter a lecture hall without the express permission of the instructor. Yes, even if they've paid their tuition. Granted, it's never been enforced to my knowledge - can you imagine handing out 400 permission slips for one of the big first-year classes?
But a similar rule to this could probably be used to knock out versity.com's notetakers. I prefer the other strategy, which is that the profs post their notes on the web themselves, so that the students can actually listen and participate, instead of madly scribbling notes in class.
"Sure, it's anonymous! Say whatever you want!" Then, when the professor collects them, we're supposed to believe (s)he doesn't read them? And when they read them, we're supposed to believe they don't try to figure out who wrote the negative ones? Puh-lease.
Teacher evaluations written in class are almost invariably favorably biased; everybody wants to kiss up and try to get a better grade.
I'm not saying Internet teacher reviews are any better, but at least the anonymity is really, truly there. (Unless my Creative Writing prof decides to check the IP address log, trace it back to my ISP, get them to rat me out...yeah, right!)
Free music from Jack Merlot.
I would suggest that the review quoted above may actually be libel. The reviewer is stating as a fact that a fellow teacher has a particular opinion. The credibility of another individual is being wagered here... So if this fellow teacher doesn't exist or did not state this opinion; then the above may be a problem. I would suggest that the review site only allow for direct experience (hear-say is not postable). Further, a nice moderation mechanism like slash dot could help out.
... he can demonstrate that the webmaster has acted malliciously or negligently in allowing slander to be posted on his website.
It is just like the graffiti-covered wall. If you put up a wall and you tell other people 'please write obscenities here', you are liable. If you put up a wall, people write obscenities, someone complains, and you do not take reasonable steps (ie, removing said graffiti), you are liable.
I don't know the details of the case in question, but if the professor complained about obscenity or libelous comments and said comments were not removed, he does have a case.
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
The problem with this at my High School is that the "Student Services Department" considers students avoiding classes because the teacher is crummy to be "prejudice." So in order to "protect" the teachers against this "prejudice," they do two things: they don't publicize who will be taking a class ahead of time, and they only allow one schedule change of any kind. The second one is further restricted, because you can't change to a different course at the same "level" (ie, change teachers). And if you do change levels, they try and put you into a class with the same teacher.
That said, my school has a lot of good teachers. Unfortunately, it also has a lot of really, really, really bad ones.
-RickHunter
I do layout work for my school newspaper, and I can't say how much of a pain this is for us. We decided against an "underground" paper because that lets us use school resources like the photocopier, scanner, digital camera, and the like that we couldn't afford by ourselves. However, the downside is that we have to be very careful what we publish that criticizes the school or a teacher.
We've only printed two issues that didn't get run past our "teacher supervisor." One we almost got in major trouble for, as it had an opinion piece (by the Head Editor!) critizing the way the school ran and curriculum for a BS (and required!) class called "Career and Life Management." And our "teacher supervisor" is a big supporter of this class...
We'd been garunteed that the school wouldn't censor the paper, although we had self-censored a couple of articles as overly inflamatory without substance. Looks like they didn't really care about that...
-RickHunter
This one is just a freak that needs to learn how to spell. Makes me wonder if hate crimes are up in his area.
Your actions in life will determine your children's future.
The problem with secular humanism is that it won't get you to heaven nor provide the spiritual, emotional, and physical healing that only a community of Christians can. Without "organized" religion (Christianity), the poor, the sick, the starving, and the hopeless would all be left to fend for themselves. Mother Teresa was not a secular humanist - she was a Christian, and it was organized religion that allowed her to have such a large impact on the world.
Yes, there have been people that went off on a tangent and were deceived by Satan and called themselves Christians. But it was not the "organization" that caused this behavior: it was Satan, and he would have deceived them regardless of whether or not these people were involved in the organization. The fact that they were organized gave them a visible presence and allowed the world to see their bad deeds for what they were: sin.
Secular humanism is nothing more than a "feel good" excuse to deny your responsibility for yourself and those around you.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
This puzzles me. Where I went, Rice U. in Houston, we were essentially *required* to critique our profs. This was a long time ago and things may have changed by now, but it was a good system at the time. Our write-ups (they didn't have to be huge, but most students took them quite seriously) were used by the University in the evaluation of profs. How much impact did they have? According to my advisor at the time "They're the difference between getting tenure and not getting it." It would be rare for negative reviews to have any more impact than that, but if someone were as big a jerk as the prof who's suing teacherreview, they would have certainly caused the university to closely monitor the teacher in question.
Other schools don't invite students to rate their instructors? Other schools don't take action based on what those students have to say? If so, that just ain't right.
How come no one ever reads the Bible anymore? If Judaism taught us one thing, it's 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.'
:) As I understand it (this could be way off base, I am an atheist raised in a Jewish household; I never got much passed Genisis), the idea of an "eye for an eye" comes from the old testament and is later replaced in the new testament by "turn the other cheek." In addition, I don't think that flaming his students would do a thing for him. Sure, he could probably be quite nasty etc., but he is in a position of authority over his students; to criticize them publicly would be unethical (not to say that what students have done to him is any more less unethical) and an abuse of power.
Perhaps part of the problem is that so many people out there are not Jewish
I don't think it would do him any good any way. It makes him look vindictive. Granted, going after teachereview.com makes him look just as vindictive. I really don't know what one would do in a situation like this. As I understand it, several court cases have made it clear that you can't publish lies as fact. That is libel. Unfortunatly for Brown, all of those posts are opinions. I think that the posters can say just about anything they want and still be covered by the first amendment. Again, I really don't know what I am talking about, IANAL and the last gov. class I had was in high school -- so please, correct me if I'm wrong.
-----
Rhapsody in Numbers
My example was Canadian (we have different libel rules than USA) and administrative rather than judicial, but both my example and this one offer important issues in libel vs free speech.
My preference is towards open speech, but I have been the victim of false allegations that did serious harm to me. I did not pursue a libel case in the one case because of futile political convictions (fight falsehoods with facts, not lawsuits), and in the other case because fighting rumours with lawsuits would only re-enforce the "loser" reputation that the falsehoods were spreading. The loser prof will not gain respect from any students by stifling expression. He will only force the commentary onto Usenet or some offshore site.
If free speech becomes impossible in America, I'm sure that "tonga" (or wherever .cc or .nu are based) would be willing to trade in free speech sites. I'm sure that agents in various Carribean islands would be willing to register site names for you for a trivial handling fee.
One example was on Winmag last October.
Another example is marked November but my employer's smartfilter won't let me go there.
Even ZDnet carried it in October.
I am appalled. I just went to the site referenced in the story, and the proffessor now has 95 comments.
.4 Obviously tainted by people who have never taken his class.
The first 3 pages are from (Obviously) slashdot readers.
Now you have made the proffessor's case. By clearly spamming the teacher's page, you have proved that there is no qualification for people to leave feedback about this professor. You basically trashed someone you know nothing about, and that is what will allow this teacher to win this claim.
What slashdot readers did in regards to this story is EXTREMELY irresponsible. Sure, the site was flawed in design... You can send an email.
This Teacher's "GPA" rating is now down around
By doing this, you probably caused more problems for the webmaster than just his legal issues.
Way to go, kids. Way to go.
--Alex
This is a signature virus...
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
All the UK cares about is if the statement is damaging. This really muzzles their papers. Canada is the same as the UK
The truth is an absolute defense in Canada too.
Exams that test for knowledge should be the ONLY things that make up a final grade mark.
Nope. Sorry, thanks for playing.
In advanced classes, the material is far to complicated to pack into a final exam. I once took a graduate geology class involving water chemistry. One day, we got a problem something to the effect of "a puddle of water rests on an outcrop of dolomite at 25 deg. C. Assume equilibrium, what is the concentration of calcium in the water?" Man... if that had been on the final, the entire class would have failed. The derivation was something like 4 pages long, and took me 2 days.
Now maybe I'm slow... But I feel there's a case for homerwork credit in many upper division and graduate classes.
Two minutes late though sounds like she used to be a BOFH.
Temkin
(No, not the right to carry ridiculously powerful assault weapons. Yes, we know they're for "hunting" purposes only.)
Hunting isn't a constitutionally protected right. Far from it.
The 2nd amendment you allude to is there for one reason. Most people don't like to talk about it. It's there so the people hold the threat of violence over those who govern. Not for hunting, not for home defense, not for target shooting with ESR. It's there for waving at those who hold power, and saying "you work for us, remember?"
BTW - Statistically, weapons with military use/value have a better chance of getting 2nd amendment protection from the courts than those with marginal military value. At least those cases heard before the 1960's. :-)
Temkin
I'll vote for this. VC5/6 is a good environment and the compiler is robust. Don't get me wrong, I'm a great egcs fan, but this is a good product and (with a few notable exceptions -eg scoping of variables declared in for loops) nicely ANSI compliant.
Anyone who slags off the prof because of the programming enviroment he has to work in should get a life - wait till you end up in the real world and have to use KDE instead of Gnome - Oh the hardship!
regards
tree_frog
I find it interesting that the issue seems to be centering around the comment about picking up boys on Polk street, when it appears that the teacher was upset before this comment was posted. The poster says:
"Thank god for teacher review, which I have heard Brown is trying to shut down."
This sure makes it sound like the teacher was already taking action before this comment even came up. And of course people are going to become more upset & start saying worse things about you if you start to threaten their right to do so. I think that it will be difficult for this teacher to find a specific claim in any of the postings that will be able to be considered libel. No one is claiming these opinions to be fact, and it's been said over & over that the webmaster cannot be held liable for the postings of others on his site. This guy would be better off suing the specific students who made the comments which he takes issue with.
Paul
Anyway, if the same precedent used in Sean's case is used with the Teacher Review case, it would seem to me that the Teacher Review would have the stronger case.
But it is neither Teacherreview.com nor the people writing the graffiti that are getting sued. It is the college, for linking to teacherreview.com, that is the target of the lawsuit.
This is yet another case of, "can someone get sued for linking to something". It has already been established that they can't be sued under copyright legislation for linking to content on someone else's website that is pirated, because they are not guilty of pirating, they're just telling you where to find the stuff.
The question now is, can someone be guilty of libel or slander when they link to a website that has nasty comments about someone else? My guess is that they can't, the college isn't responsible for the content, it just lets people know that it exists. It also links to the website indiscriminately, it doesn't say, "...and here's a very bad review of this professor, why don't you go read this review in particular".
I'm sorry he's been made to feel uncomfortable. From reading the reviews, he should walk away with at least one piece of learning : he's made his students uncomfortable with his aggressive homosexuality and they've been given a forum in which to gripe about it. But in terms of who he is suing and why, he should lose. The consequences of his winning would be a terrible blow to free speech on the internet. Much of the value of the internet comes from the fact that everything is linked, and a college ought to link to this kind of site. It's a shame it's not used as responsibly as it might be - there's a lot of venom in the reviews and not as much rational assessment for me to feel that they're entirely useful.
Salocin.com
Christ was not a radical. His ministry was foretold hundreds of years beforehand and his resurrection did exactly as predicted: it fulfilled the Mosaic Law. It was well understood that with Christ's coming and resurrection, the Mosaic Law ("an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth") would be nullified and that a new law -- for a (mostly) more mature society -- would be given ("love thy neighbor as thyself"). The Pharisees recognized this and is one of the principle reasons for his crucifixion.
In my 4 years at UofT I have seen a lot of different professors, some of them are great at teaching some of them sucked some of them just plainly could not spead English. Faith is unique, that is why such a unique attitude. If you come to the UofT CDF (the computer lab) and ask any number of student who they think was their worst nightmare of a prof, you'll get Faith in 90% of the time. I know, because I did it. I actually went and asked people day after day, the same picture it's Faith. Well, let's face it, if 90% of the students no matter what year they are on (mostly 2 and over) answer the same question in the same maner, it must mean something, don't you think?
I believe that it is the teacher who must present his/her material to the students in the way that they would appreciate and understand and be willing to spend time to pursue the knowledge of that material. On the other hand, if the prof does not give a flying fuck about what he/she is doing... They say she is so smart she just can not put into words all her thoughts. She must have lots of them.
>"College should not be like high school, where >students get to pass just so they can "feel good >about themselves" or some crap like that." WTF?
Who said anything about that. If you can teach than you should, if you can not than you must not teach.
Mr. Balachrishnan, my csc340 prof. once told me confidentially, that many professors at UofT would actually take a paycut just not to teach the undegraduate students. They are ok. teaching grad students becuase those guys pursue the same interests as the their professors. UofT is the toughest school I ever went to, and let me tell you, it NEVER gives you anything for granted. That's why it's a good university. However those who CAN NOT and DON'T WANT TO teach should not be FORCED TO. Yes, they are actually forced to teach the undegrads. I had a beautiful 'instructor' (she is not a professor) Diane Horton at UofT for a few courses. She would kill us with the type and amount of work and she would not tolerate tardness, but she could TEACH.
If you tell me that you would not want to become a teacher because of something like what I described, then you should not be allowed to be one. You sound like a prick who only cares about himself, the profs should be caring about their students.
About the real world, I work at www.davinci.ca and I am designing and developing a server for mobile communications, brother. We have contracts to sell it to Nokia, BCTell, Sprint and Bell Mobility. I have been working for 3 years in the industry and taking courses at the same time, don't you fucking tell me about the real world, bitch.
>Although I wouldn't be so cruel as to suggest >lethal injection, a stiff slap upside the head >might do you a bit of good
what can I say, come and get me, fucker.
You can't handle the truth.
If this professor wins, we'll all be afraid to do those teacher reviews at the end of the semester for fear of retailiation.
I'm sure we've all had CS professors that didn't know VHDL from HTML, and humanities/philosophy professors that gave As on papers containing regurgitation of their own thoughts, but does that really require a website to communicate those things? The only use I could see for this website is for freshmen or transfer students. There's enough "grapevine information" about professors floating around on campus to give you an idea of whether or not you want to take a class with him/her. For the record though, I do not think that TR's webmaster should be held responsible at all.
"I threw up my hands in disgust and wondered if it had been such a good idea to have eaten my hands in the first place."
If I tell someone that they are an asshole...and can prove it in court...can I post it on my web page? What if I include pictures of the people and not names?
A friend of mine told me that anyone is allowed to go into a University lecture and listen. Of course this
a) Could be wrong, and
b) Might only apply to UK Universities,
But considering some of the older American institutions are older than the US, I would have thought that the same rules would apply as the English Universities.
In the U.S., it is constitutional to pass a law allowing jail time for any libellous statement that can be considered an incitement to a breach of peace. I am not a lawyer, but I think the Supreme Court justices who decided Beauharnai s v. Illinois definitely were. That precedent stands today. Of course, the stuff on that page is certainly not incitement, and it in fact is probably not even libellous. Just watch out for those sweeping generalizations.
After previewing the comment several times, it keeps putting that space before the 's' in Beauharnais. What's up with that?
WARNING: there is a trojan on your
What the Supreme Court says is open to debate, like you say. The critical distinction is that, unlike literary analysis, cases and laws are decided based on these "opinions". I am not a lawyer. That's why, before making my post, I asked a lawyer. In addition, I looked up a few of my sources for a paper that I've been researching for a month on a related topic, including analyses of this case. These sources are considered to be experts. Granted, that term may not mean squat in a technical field where everyone wants to do it their own way, but it has a lot of standing in the judicial system. Among my sources were articles written by Supreme Court justices. According to them, I'm right. Your initial point was right, too, but I see no need for you to be flaming other people to get attention for yourself. I might point out that it's rather redundant to post the same thing in 6 different places on a thread. Yes, I checked up on you. I do ALL my homework. I learn a lot, too. Now I've learned what a Karma whore is. (Granted, this is anecdotal, so if the correct term is troll, or something else entirely, please let me know.) Is this a flame? Yes. Do I feel guilty about it? No. Did you start it? Yes.
WARNING: there is a trojan on your
I didn't misunderstand the case. You misunderstood the way the Supreme Court works. If the Court rules that oranges are unconstitutional, that may or may not mean that it also considers apples to be unconstitutional. You have to look at the case. If the court rules that oranges are unconstitutional because they are fruits, and fruits are unconsitutional, then apples are also unconstitutional, even if they were never at issue in the case that appeared before the court. Conversely, if the court rules group libel/slander laws constitutional under certain guidelines, it may implicitly rule ones pertaining to individuals constitutional as well. If you read the case (as I have) it in fact does leave that door open. As it stands, very few specific laws of that kind are in place or enforced, since inciteful speech is covered in many ways (don't curse at the police when they arrest you, trust me), and the rest is usually boring enough that prosecutors will leave it to the civil courts.
Did you have a point?
Yes.
Was it mutually exclusive to mine?
No.
Do your homework before you flame. I've been researching supreme court cases on this specific topic for almost a month.
Who moderated this anyway? It sure looked like flamebait to me.
WARNING: there is a trojan on your
The problem with a name logged to a posting is retaliation - a posted review of a bad professor is fine, but what happens if you are still in the middle of your education and either you need another class from that professor, or he/she is the chair of the department, etc.?
How will other instructors react to a student who has posted a bad review of another instructor?
College/university academia is VERY political ala DC (my father was a college prof, so I have some knowledge of this). There could be a lot of pressure to "disipline" students who rock the boat too much.
In the case of anon postings, there must be some moderation - slander/libel and violent/threatening speech is not protected and should be removed or not allowed up.
Also, there should be a forum for the instructors to reply to their reviews. Used properly this could be an incredibly valuable tool for both students and professors. There are different styles of teaching, and what works for one student doesn't for another - if you could learn which instructors use which styles, you could make better choices to help you learn better.
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers. Shakespeare, Henry VI, Part 2, Act 4, Scene 2
Well if you're trying to remain anonymous it's a good thing that all of your teachers are too clueless to do a whois.
I was going to post a link here but, as unlikely as it is that your teachers are reading, I don't want to make it easy for them.
"Do you think we could wipe out world hunger forever if scientists figured out how to make AOL's Free CD's edible?"-
(...)you will better off reading the Dietel book than taking this guy class. LOL Reminds me so much of one of my Software Engineering teachers. I'm probably one of the many orphans picked up by the Deitel Bros. at the CS/EE Orphanage. :-)
The ZDNet article implies that techerreview.com's operator is not responsible for the opinions posted on his site due to the CDA. Did I miss something there? I thought the CDA got repealed in '96 or '97.
Something like this should be covered by the 1st amendment. If it isn't, then what is. IMHO, people are allowed to have opinions , but IANAL, so what do I know. As for the post, how can the operator be held liable for the post of a user. That is like me filing suit against an ISP because one of the ISPs users was talking trash...but that is just my $0.02
perl -e "print(pack('H37','4d65726b7572795a40676e7572642e6e6574'))"
But I think the most important thing is that you should make very clear that it is just your opinion and not facts, unless you can prove these facts.
One think IANAL and IANAA (I am not a american).
Grtz, Jeroen
Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/
Well, I wasn't able to read the actual reviews, due to slashdoting. But I did read the article.
It was interesting, sort of. But There were some weird parts. for instance the author brought up the CDA, witch was overturned by the Supreme Court (actually, in defense of the site.)
There was also this passage
"Ryan built the wall," Burk told London. "Other people came along and sprayed their messages on [it] and now professor Curzon-Brown is trying to hold Ryan responsible for that. He certainly did build the wall and invited people to come, but that's exactly what Congress wanted people to do. Congress wanted walls built all over the Net, all over the nation."
While congress did want walls built, I don't think they meant it in that way. Strange article.
Its to bad the site is slashdoted, I'd really like to find out what all the fuss is about.
Amber Yuan 2k A.D
"and dear god does this website suck now." -- CmdrTaco
Great idea to have a site, like this, to review teachers, whatever, we also had something like this at the University. It was just worked fine, if a professor got a grade less than 40% for more than 2 semesters, he/she was "moved to research job".
What I don't like in this whole idea is, there is no authentic validation of identity, there is no proof required that an individual ever saw that teacher etc.
The site operator cannot be held responsible for 3rd party posts, that's trivial. The reviewers have no very little control, so practically this whole thing can end up in an endless sh*t-throwing.
Yes, there is personal responsibility, not to post anything destructive or false, or whatever, but the users of the site just can not distinguish between benevolent and malevolent posts.
Publicity is a dangerous weapon, and should not be given to anyone who is unable to handle it correctly.
Z.
No, IE. I use *superior* products which have the purpose of accumulating wealth. Sorry if all this tricky 'reason' stuff flies over your head, but socialism is rightfully dead.
---
Ayn
If he really does teach a computing class, how can he react this way? Must be his EGO :-) Apparently the reviews didn't match his opinion of himself ;-)
I just know this prof has never read a newsgroup, and certainly never posted to one. I could just see him posting to a mythical alt.profs.computercourses, defending himself; it wouldn't look prety. Maybe he should take a computer course; Posting 101
Legal Disclaimer: This is an OPINION, my OPINION only. Don't get bent out of shape professor!
"Open code, in other words, can be a check on state power." -Lawrence Lessig
Here at RIT, the Student Government is (was?) trying to implement an internet based student review system of professors.
The nice page they made for it is up on their website: Professor Evaluations
Of course, it has said "Coming Soon!" since about October, when it was first announced. No surprise there... not surprised one bit. I think the Administration here is holding it back for some strange reason...
-Misch
--You will rephrase your request for me to go to hell. Goto statements are not acceptable programming constructs
Once a lawsuit is filed, and decided in favor of the professor (if it happens), the law has, in fact, abridged the freedom of speech of the people on the website. -Teflon Eppy
"Nothing sticks to Teflon! Except those damned rockets..."
Once a lawsuit is filed, and decided in favor of the professor (if it happens), the law has, in fact, abridged the freedom of speech of the people on the website. -Teflon Eppy
"Nothing sticks to Teflon! Except those damned rockets..."
I'm afraid I have to agree with the anonymous coward, he's right, and the ... er... anonymous coward is wrong. Hmm, the problem with anonymous postings.
..." That is to say, "No new law shall be passed ..." Nowhere does the 1st say "the common law torts of libel and slander are hereby repealed"
Ok, I'll simplify. Here is what I disagree with:
The 1st says "Congress shall make no law
As far as I know, the common law of libel and slander only apply to exactly that: libel and slander. For which the legal definitions are something like "Untrue facts circulated about a person by print (libel) or word of mouth (slander)"
So even though IANAL, I'd have to say that libel and slander do not apply to opinions. I can voice any opinions that I want to. So can anyone else. Thats why various hate groups still hold (perfectly legal) marches occasionally, and make people feel uncomfortable. People may not like their message, but as long as it is stated as an opinion they have a right to express it. That web site was stating opinions. Even if it never explicitly stated it, reviews by students can basically be assumed by everyone reading the site to be opinions. That's what a review is. Your (or whoever's) opinion on how they did. So I think that this site still falls under the jurisdiction of the first amendment.
What's the big deal about posting teacher reviews online? It's not just a new media thing. Professor and class reviews have been published in dead tree form on many college campuses by student unions for a while now. Then the are the underground reviews published by student organizations not meant for general campus readership. In otherwords, teacher reviews isn't new, and the media form that it takes place in bares not merit. The professor's got no case.
This is definitly the best /. post i've ever seen. You're the man.
[q] Hm. O'er here, it depends a LOT on the course. In undergrad CS courses with TAs, they may have a bit of authority to change the scores they assigned. On the other hand, objective criteria mean that unless there was an inconsistency or other mistake, there's usually not a whole lot of grounds to argue for points. [/q]
I agree that even science Profs/TA's have quite a bit of room to play with grades. ex: rumors are that there is a physics prof will generally pass any architecture student that comes his way (I'm hopeing its true). And conversely I imagine that if a TA recommeneded so (for what reason I would have no idea) my prof could grade someone down (within reason of course).
BUT at least you still have progress reports (ie midterm and final test grades) with which to argue with.
Like I said, I've taken 4 classes where I didn't recieve one single progress report the whole time. It was art-related but when you get a grade that you think is low -- how do you appeal it???
hmm but I'm not a science/engineering major -- how much room do you think you have to up your grade through non-objective criteria at given your major/school?
btw I go to Berkeley...
well at least at my school the only way to get a grade changed is to talk a prof into changing his/her grade. That of course is quite rare.
Considering that my last 4 important major-related classes (as an Architecture/Visual Studies student) didn't involve a single grade handed out until the end of the semester....
It might be easier in science classes where 1) if you're fucked most likely a whole lot of other people were fucked with you (creating a disgruntled mass) and 2) there ARE objective standards.
however I HAVE heard of students threating civil action and were able to mediate a change -- usually due to a misunderstanding, or a really spiteful prof grading a student down much lower than reasonable (they can usually get away with a 1/2 grade +/- tweak with no liability)
[q/]It was just worked fine, if a professor got a grade less than 40% for more than 2 semesters, he/she was "moved to research job". [/q]
which, at most public universities, is exactly what most of the profs WANT.
Defaming other people on the internet is good. As long as they don't know you and you know them it is perfectly fine. If you are gonna publish yourself on the net, get ready for some defamation because not everyone is gonna agree with you. You suck professor.
Granted, I have nothing against my instructors except respect for the effort put in to teaching a big bunch of losers such as my class, but hey, if they come out to the bar with us after a hard week, they aren't all that bad :)
"Anybody who tells me I can't use a program because it's not open source, go suck on rms. I'm not interested." (LT 2004)
But...
It also provides a service to people, who, on a VERY slim chance find their future teacher on that site, to be informed about what is coming up...The problem with any type of Internet review is that it's generally too spur-of-the-moment to actually generate a decent review...I know I've caught myself writing some pretty scathing reviews/flames/whatevers, and didn't even bother to think about it before I hit Send..The majority of reviews, in fact, are probably going to be negative for this reason..
Anger is a bigger motivator than any other emotion
So, while this teacher is quite obviously, over-reacting to what is, most likely, a group of students with certain chips on their shoulders, he should still take notice, and read between the lines a bit....no-one is perfect after all, especially computer teachers ;)
"Anybody who tells me I can't use a program because it's not open source, go suck on rms. I'm not interested." (LT 2004)
OOG ON VACATION OOG COME BACK SOON. OOGS LOVER FILLING IN FOR OOG WHILE HE AWAY.
How does one learn anything from this. Simple. You read. You get a 'feel' for what the Truth is. The human brain has a fantastic enctended version of 'grep' in it, fully capable of discriminating the bogus from the real. So even though asking about frobs will collect all possible opinions, there's still a bell curve of truth you can zero in on. And you'll find your answer.
I support teacherreview.com. I'm gonna review some of my profs right now!
Just about every university has someone who rates professors. Here at MSU we have Mark Grebner who, while I don't believe has ever been sued, I know has really annoyed some professors with his ratings.
I think part of the reason he has never been sued is the sheer length of time he's been publishing them - he started in the mid 70's!
Considering the incredibly low opinion his students have of him, maybe he should listen before he opens his big mouth and digs himself into a deeper hole.
;)
But does he listen? No, he whines. Well, I guess his critics were right, then.
And he must have paid extra to that boy on Polk St., not to tell...
Oops, I defamed him in a public forum! Ban Slashdot and the Internet! It's evil! People can express their opinions without censorship! BURN ALL TEXT!!!
---
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
By saying that racism, sexism, etc. are all the same kind of proves the point.
What point? You don't seem to have put any points forth for that statement to prove.
So a black man's experience is the same as a white woman's? Huh? Have you gone and talked to any?
You have no idea how many I've talked to. And you're right about one thing; in the particulars they're different. But see my next statement; the specifics vary, but when all is said and done they're about the same basic thing.
But racism, sexism, and heterosexism are concepts built around the experience of not being white, male, or straight. Now it's pretty obvious to me that no amount of good intentions on your part is going to make your opinions on these matters a heck of a lot more insightful.
You speak of the effects of these things. I speak of the things themselves. And as I said, while the particulars of the effects vary (in some cases greatly), can you argue that you cannot find the things I describes in all cases: inequity, injustice, and suffering? I don't think you can.
If I got one thing from feminism, it was learning that it didn't help to have an opinion on everything, and knowing when to shut the fsck up and let somebody else have a say. Give it a try!
I'm not sure what to make of that. Frankly I've never seen a brand of feminism that ever said that, except perhaps the the very few which advocate the eradication of all males. All of the feminists I've ever spoken to have encouraged open discussion on all issues. So I'm trying to figure out if by that post you mean "sit back and let others do the talking for you sometimes" or "shut up; don't have opinions, someone else will tell you what to think." If it's the former, you have a point, but it's not one I've ever encountered and I've encountered many brands of feminism (but that's getting into my personal life, so if you want to discuss that more we're taking it off of Slashdot). If it's the latter, I pity you; you've apparently been shouted down by people who are either hypocrites or psychos, and in this case I'm not sure which is worse.
But either way, we're speaking on different wavelengths. I'm trying to talk about racism, sexism, and other forms of prejudice. You speak of the more common targets thereof. We've both got some interesting ideas, but we're comparing apples and oranges (OK, probably more like oranges and lemons; they do have a relation but they're still different things).
A Republican? Being accused of Homophobia? Frankly, it's not surprising, given the history of the party, and the current practices of its presidential candidates. The fact is, you're a member of a group that *does* discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. That's your choice. No offense was intended by this post. I'm aware that not all Republicans are homophobes, but the party line is homophobic.
So it's guilt by association, now? The sins of the father weighing on the son, to put it into a different perspective? But that's still no different from the homophobia you claim to see in Republicans.
How many people here associate with a political party but don't really follow the party line perfectly? Probably not all that many. Most people don't fit party lines exactly. Party lines are too specific, whereas a group of people is still comprised of individuals (statistics are a real pain when your data subjects are sentient, you know?)
There was something that I did find interesting, though. Studies of past elections have shown that more Repiblican voters are willing to break their party line than Democrats are. What I'm wondering is, why? Does this mean Republicans tend to see something wrong with their party, so they vote for others? Does it mean Democrats just don't tend to think about issues and vote blindly with their party? Does it mean Democrats are somehow morally superior to Republicans, and Republicans voting for Democrats are really just having conscience attacks? Or is it something else? I don't know, though I very much doubt it's the third.
But now I'm getting completely offtopic, so I'll stop...
I'm not sure if it is even nessesary to prove that the offending statement is false, only that it was written with the intention to harm someone.
You could maliciously ruin someone's reputation without telling blatant lies. Does that make it right? In some cases maybe, in other cases not. In this case a court of law will apparently be deciding if this was ok or not.
Completely seperate from the question if the offended professor has a case or not, after reading some of the comments on that page, it's not surprising that he was offended, and that he will do whatever he can to have those posts removed. Politely asking the webmaster to moderate the posts apparently had no effect, so what else could he do? In a perfect world freedom of speech includes the freedom to violate every law of courtesy and decency. If you live by this principle in the real world however, you'll find you make no friends, and get beaten up regularly.
The link from the teacher review page to his home page is wrong - it should be http://fog.ccsf.org/~dbrown/
Sure, I'm not disagreeing with the concept of the teacherreview web site, I'm just answering bludstone's question. I think the web site operator is on dodgy ground, he's publishing potentially libellous material. It's not the same as slashdot, where the discussions are clearly contributor opinions only, he's recommending that people use the reviews on his site to decide which teacher to use. He should exercise editorial control if he's going to do that.
There's a good reason for a nondisclosure period. The point is that the prof shouldn't be able to see the results until the grades are in. Note that unless it's the prof's first year on the job, the professor will have built up a track record one way or the other.
Besides, who's going to disparage a bad professor on the official U reviews?
As someone who's been reviewed, I can inform you that the students don't seem unwilling to speak their minds ( either way ) on those reviews.
They'de collected before grades are entered
Sure, because they need to be filled out when the class is still in session ( ie before its broken up and hence before grades are out ).
However, the prof isn't allowed to see the reviews until the grades are in ( this is true at every school I've been at. I bet it's true with yours -- check !!! )
Unless he's tenured, that is.
WRONG. Tenured or not, the profs are still subject to the same evaluation process, and the fact that a prof is tenured does not imply that their evaluations are undisclosed.
I have to wonder, if he hates teaching English, why did he spend all those years getting a Ph.D, a teaching position and tenure?
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
I'm not sure whether I agree with this guy suing or not, cuz the site is slashdotted so I haven't read the comments about him. But the point of the defamation laws is to prevent abuse of the first amendment. Do you think it would be OK if I posted on my high-traffic website that you were a child molestor? The reason that this is tortious is becuase you have no chance to defend yourself. If I say something that is completely unfounded by the facts, and it irrevocably damages your character (what if you were denied a job becuase of this), you definitely have the right to sue.
-Matt
After all, a bad grade represents a professor's bad opinion of the student.
Turnabout is fair play, IMO.
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Should we throw another human wave of structural engineers at stabilizing the Leaning Tower of Pisa, or should we just let the damn thing fall over and build a tower that doesn't suck?
-- Neal Stephenson comenting on why Linux kicks ass
Actualy, the quote was talking about why BeOS Kicked ass, not linux. He does really like linux, but not for that reason.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
of a professor (Laurence Godfrey) suing the UK 's largest ISP (Demon) over something posted on USENET. In this case the ISP caved.
Read the story on Wired.
--
E_NOSIG
I'd be interested in forming a site for positive teacher reviews only. This would be to find the highest quality instructors and lecturers in the nation. This information could then be used to form video lecture series and course material for the free university project.
LetterRip
fstmm@yahoo.com
Flamage can have value, IMHO. If his students are this worked up, I'll bet he really is a crappy teacher.
This seems doubtful. I have seen many students get worked up over something stupid like a mild accent. Note: Undergraduates normally do not put in the time to mastere the fine art of lissening to crazy accents that graduate students must master, so I see undergrads bitching about a profs who really dose a good job once you get past the accent.
The libel laws are pretty clear and the web site should win, but it would be nice to have a feature to prevent duplicate reviews AND maintain anonymity. I think you could do it with an online voting algorithm, i.e. you only get one vote, but the site can not tell which vote was yours.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
Does anyone use these sites, trust them?
.. " and because I know they know me, and I know how they like classes run, I would weight their opinion much more than another.
How accurate (considering accuracy is pretty subjective here) are sites like this? I can't imagine going to one of these sites and giving it much weight at all. No doubt every teacher has had problems with some students and vice versa at one time or another. I would think students who are upset are more likely to post reviews.
I would like to see students note what teaching styles they like and how they thought the teacher taught rather than just some "good/bad" reviews. I've had teachers who's classes I've taken and we did not get along at all, we just had different styles of research, we did not see eye to eye on anything, and I hated the class, but that's not necessarily that teachers fault.
Personally I usually talk to people who have taken the class. I have some friends who would tell me "he/she sucks! they're terrible" and while I would take the info, I wouldn't weight it very high since I know them well enough to know they hate that subject to start. Other friends I would tell me "you would not like this class .
I took a look at a number of professors from several schools and the posts were very "troll/flamebaitish." Very little explanation of why they felt the teacher "had no idea what they were talking about" or why they "blow gaots hard." Just allot of he/she sucks because he is a _____. It mostly was useless info from some students who couldn't spell check "goats" correctly before posting. There also was plenty of "he/she is great" with equal lack of explanation.
Please note, I am not posting this anonymously. I respect the need for Anonymous Coward posting, but there are times when there is also a need for people to post their thought and be willing to put a name behind them. This is such a case.
Anyone sane is concerned about negative things being said about them. It is part of how we function as human beings and an important part of what make it possible for us to build large, complex societies. We fear being cast into the outer darkness. That phrase itself echoes back to the fear of being driven from the warmth and safety of the tribal campfire into the predator-filled night.
For an individual, the lose of reputation can be devistating. Depending on the nature of the allegations, it can mean the loss of a career, a marriage, friends, a home. Yes, this web site has the potential to do that. And there is a fine line that it must walk to be effective. It must retain that power. Criticism, robbed of all power to harm has no teeth. On the other side, when it is wielded brutally, and manipulatively, it loses its credibility.
This is no different from the delicated editorial balance maintained in other media. The variety of sources for the information has increased. The immediacy of both submission and access is much greater. But this is not much different from other methods of criticism running a full spectrum from reasoned debate between public figures who both have reputations to defend to graffiti spray-painted on bridge abutments.
Without a means to criticize those elements of a society who have exceeded its limits in some way, we are forced to accept that those individuals will continue in their actions. We expand the scope of acceptible behaviour a little. Silencing dissent sanctions the behaviour it would criticize. Giving it free rein with no review allows it to be characterized as a personal vendetta without merit.
As society moves online, there is a need for institutions that meet its needs to move with it. It is wonderful to be able to shop online. It is wonderful to be able to communicate with my friends, family and colleagues. But if we abandon the means by which we obtain reliable information about the reputations of other members of society, or worse still outlaw those means, we will have reduced the capacity of our society to hold itself together.
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
If this professor wins, imagine what it could do to VA/Andover/Rob... For all the (sometimes deserved) thrashings Signal 11 takes whenever he posts, the guy could be an instant millionaire!
--
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E2 IN2 IE?
Ha! this is too easy :)
Lets take a look at my favorite paragraph
"He's not just a passive provider like America Online," Curzon-Brown told London.
AOL? Passive? they are probably the least passive isp out there! Besides their intensive waste of cds at my expense, and how aol 5.0 "took over" a users computer, there is all the Spam. They sell email adresses to advertisers people.. how many isps do that?
"He's actually pointing to certain teachers and saying, 'Don't take these teachers. Look at their grade point average.'
Tell me exactly why teachers can grade students on their performance but students cant grade proffesors on theirs?
And the horrible part of it is, those grade point averages are based on reviews by people who were never their students.
Most of the reviewers mention if they are students.
Or by the same angry students sending in multiple reviews, so your grade point average is a lie to begin with, and yet the webmaster is saying, 'Use this to choose your classes.' I don't know what to say. How can anyone defend this?"
Watch me.
Just read the reviews. I mean, there are B's and F's on this guy. This contradiction must mean something. And if the students feel a need explore that, they should have the ability.
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no
The point of this web site is a forum for students to give criticism to schools and professors as anonomous cowards. When you fill out those course reviews on your prof before you get your grade you are never sure if that prof will recognize your handwriting and grade you down. Sites like this provide a truly anonymous way for the students to provide feedback to the professors. The professor just needs to learn how to read the reviews appropriately. It's like reading Slashdot, -1 troll, -1 offtopic, +5 insightful. Any student in the class can tell between these type of posts. The big problem as far as I see it, is that a few student activists can fusk everything up by posting hundred of trolls and generally the disgruntled students will be the ones posting. The only true solution would be to have one vote per student but this requires some method of identifying the students who post and thus prevents the free nature of the site.
Any suggestion for improvement of such a review site?
no sig.
If you aren't Christian, you ought to be unbiased enough to see that the sig is simply fact--nothing more. However, as someone who is familiar with Christianity, I believe that impeding moral progress is more a property of Christian institutions rather than of Christianity itself. Christ was a radical--we can't forget that. Most modern conservative "Christian" views are incompatible with Christ's actual ideas.
I contend that all organized religions are enemies of moral progress because their stability depends on lack of change. In times of change people tend to think for themselves. This is bad for organized religion for obvious (to the non-brainwashed) reasons.
Possibly any belief in the existance of a god or gods by itself is at odds with the concept of human morality. This is why. The theist system of morality goes like this:
Group of people invents god -> god dictates moral code -> Group attempts to impose moral code on other, incompatible hunmans, resulting in mush suffering -> Repeat.
The humanist system of morality, on the other hand, goes something like this:
Humans with different ideas about morality sit down and work things out with minimal loss of life.
See--much simpler, easier, and doesn't make irrational assumtions or encourage hate and prejudice.
Moreover, Bertrand Russel is awesome and you should have a Bertrand Russel sig too.
P.S. Thomas Jefferson said this:
"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three-headed monster; cruel, vengeful, and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three-headed, beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."
So... Ha Ha! So much for those right-wing conservative bastards who say "let's get rid of this separation of church and state crap so we can get back to the REAL values this country was founded on: CHRISTIAN values, reflecting the CHRISTIAN ideas of our founding fathers, who were all CHRISTIAN." For the ignorant folks out there, this is crazy because the first six presidents of the U.S. were deists, and OUR COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED ON THE RADICAL NOTION OF FREEDOM FROM RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION, DAMMIT! THAT'S WHY WE CAME OVER HERE! We cannot have this freedom without the separation of church and state--it is one of the most "sacred" of our country's values, next to freedom of speech. (No, not the right to carry ridiculously powerful assault weapons. Yes, we know they're for "hunting" purposes only.)
Excuse my rant.
-- Religion is a major weapon in the war against reality.
I've got my share of bad teachers during my school days (which aren't finished yet). Let's face it : there will always be good teachers, bad teachers and "bad and arrogant" teachers.
This last category is the worst. I've seen teachers that didn't want to give the maximum grade because they considered that was destined only to them, thus lowering your GPA. I saw teachers that gave you an incomplete even if you did well on the exam just for the fun of having you retaking that exam and spend the summer learning. Some of them made sarcastic comments regarding a wrong answer from their students (like "if you can prove this to me I'll give you a PhD").
At one point or another we all experienced this. It doesn't make it right, but this is the way it is.
Does this mean we should simply ignore the problem ? Definitely no.
Yet, I read some of the comments of the students, and I think they definitely deserve their teacher. Ok, he's a lousy teacher, but this doesn't give you any right to curse him like that. Besides, if one doesn't understand that cursing someone hardly make him one's friend, then he should avoid expressing himself in public.
I suppose the reaction of the teacher is even understandable in this case. Although I can't see why he is sueing the web site. After all, they are a simple messenger. Destroying the site won't change the opinion of his students. On the contrary.
Then again, from my experience I could also tell that although the goal of the site is meritory, it probably won't do too much good.
The best professors I've had until now were very special human beings and during the years they earned my respect without being too concerned about this. And this includes my respect both as teachers and as persons.
On the other hand, I found that the main characteristic of the bad teachers was that they never tried to meet the requirements of the students, they never tried to "teach". They were exposing the material and that was it. The students always were a "hurd" with whom they had to spend their precious time.
And since the bad teachers don't care about the opinions of their students anyway, why bother giving those grades ?
What is really going on here?
Let's say that there is a set standard for education in a particular field. For example, let's say that the English 1A class is standardized across all the Universities, so that when a student graduates from this class, no matter where he took it, he will have the same understanding and command of English as any other student who graduated from this class with the same grade.
Let's say further that this standard is reasonable: it is neither too lenient (i.e., crediting students for comprehension they do not have or else failing to require a necessary level of comprhension), nor too strict (i.e., it does not demand of students an unnecessary or excessive level of comprehension).
So we have a universal standard, and we agree that the standard is reasonable. This results in a curriculum that reflects this standard, and it results in a requirement that the teachers teach this curriculum. Any teacher who teaches to a lower standard does their students a grave disservice, especially if they then pass these students as having met the standard. Teachers who teach to a higher standard may not fail their students, if they raise their students to the standard (and possibly above it). Teachers that teach to a higher standard, and abandon the laggards in their classroom, and finally fail them, are as bad as those that teach too leniently. Finally, teachers that are just plain incompetent also fail their students--though arguably no more or less than teachers too strict or too lenient.
But what about teachers who rigorously and competently teach the standard, but are burdened by unprepared students? There are a number of memes out there relating to the abysmal education our high-school students receive. This education supposedly prepares them to achieve the college-level standards, but may in fact fail to do so.
Is it the good teacher's fault that so many of his students fail? Should he call his class English 1A, but actually teach a remedial course? Wouldn't this be the same sort of teaching that allegedly goes on at the high-school level, where students are passed, for whatever reason except the only reason that matters: because they have learned the material?
Looking to the students who fail may provide some insight into the skill of the teacher, but disgruntlement should never be taken seriously in a vacuum.
IMHO, the solution to apparent bad teaching is obvious: if a teacher is failing a disproportionate number of students, this is immediately and painfully obvious to anyone who might care--the University administration, for example. In theory, this should be enough to warrant a review of the standard, the curriculum, and the teaching methods of the instructor. The administration can interview, survey, and poll the students, and draw rational conclusions both from their own observations and the data collected.
Websites like the one discussed here are almost completely beside the point.
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
Frankly, I think they're missing the point. From the website in question :
"Take better classes: R e a d t h e R e v i e w s Who's best to take and who should you avoid?"
"Teacher Review was created to help foster communication among the City College of San Francisco student body and to be a useful tool for students to use in obtaining a more rewarding educational experience. ... we can discover instructors who are conducive to our learning style without ever setting foot in a classroom."
Now I'm sure that there are plenty of "websites or bulliten boards" where students "exchange opinions". The difference is that they don't set themselves up as a media resource. I see this website as trying to do just that, and thus I hold them to some standards of accountability. Its the difference between sponsering a "vacation discussion group" and claiming to be "a resource for planning your vaction and avoiding tourist traps." Teacher review tried to have it both ways, and I don't have much sympathy for them. An accurate disclosure would read something like this:
No attempt has been made to verify the accuracy of statements made below. "Reviews" are submitted by volunteers, rather than solicited from a fair representation of students, do not require accountability, and are sometimes submitted based on heresay by students who have never taken classes by the professor in question. As a result, this website may or may not have any value whatsoever for a student looking for a challenging but instuctive course.
Now you could do a good job of teacher reviews by forbidding annonymous postings, asking what class they took and what grade they recieved and then soliciting opinions from other students who aren't self selecting by bile before giving a ranking, but that would be work. Work, however, it what is needed to bill yourself as a resource worth listening to. Otherwise, you should just be honest and call yourself a discussion forum with no claims to be providing information that would allow a student to safely dismiss or pick an instructor "without setting foot in the classroom."
-Kahuna Burger
...will work for Chick tracts...
So, please, don't tell me there are no such bad teachers because life is a bitch and the Murphy's laws always work out as prescribed. I don't know this particular prof., so I wouldn't talk about him but trust me, there are such FUCKING MOTHER FUCKERS out there in the universities with such FUCKING attitudes that those MOTHER FUCKING FUCKERS simply must be put to sleep through lethal injections.
You can't handle the truth.
Here's a random quote from one of the reviewers, regarding the performance of a CS instructor:
He is one of the worst instructor that I'd have. programing since I was 14 year old and I would love to challenge this guy to program anytime. His knowledges in computer science is very limited and I doubt this guy was major in computer science in his undergraduated program. DO NOT TAKE HIS CLASS because you will better off reading the dietel book than taking this guy class.
Well, if the syntax in this guys programs is anything like the syntax in his English, he should not be so critical. I was ROTFL.
You should re-post this story with the "It's funny. Laugh." logo.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
This story is most interesting because it's representative of academia's new watchfulness of the internet. I'm a student at columbia university, and we have a controversy surrounding a service called Versity.com. Basically, versity pays people to take notes in the larger lecture courses. These notes get posted on the internet and students can join versity (i believe for free) and see the notes. The professors here are concerned about the intellectual property of their lectures. My history professor told the class that some people in the university structure were considering suing versity.com. One of my friends takes notes for versity, and his teacher made him stand up in a huge lecture hall, and chewed him out for the above reason, and for undermining the "academic integrity" of the school.
Interesting, no? Although we generally think of higher education as at least one stronghold of the net, and of free speech, it seems like this isn't quite as true as we imagined. Especially not in the non-science disciplines.
peas,
-Kabloona
What the Supreme Court says is whatever the person who interprets it says it means. I had one lawyer say that the ADA is dead due to the rulings last year. I disgree, it's just ill.
I see the case he cited, not as a libel case but more towards a "hate speech" type of issue.
IANAL, I just play one in my lawsuit with Mattel.
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A crime is brought by the government (the people, the state, the commonwealth, etc). It is punished by locking the wrongdoer in prison (sometimes just a fine). Defamation is not a crime in the United States. Maybe in other countries.
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Opinions cannot be libelous, unless they imply libelous facts. In other words you can't have a wrong opinion. Or at least legally.
You can always win nominal damages ($1), if you prove that it is libel.
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This case is regarding a class of citizens, not an individual (or company). This is like saying that all blacks are child molesters. This is not saying Joe Smith is a child molester.
But does criminal libel exists (and more importantly enforced) now or within the last 20 years?
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Of couse the ACLU won on that, otherwise it would not have been mentioned on their website.
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But that's just the point, if you posted on your high traffic website that I was a child molestor and it was untrue (don't we hope) and you had nothing to back it up, then that's you yourself trying to defame me in the eyes of others. Proving that this action actually harmed me in some way may be tougher, but that would be my problem.
In this situation you have a bunch of anonymous yahoos from a school who didn't like said professor posting their views in a public forum. If I want to go out in the street and scream that Slashdot sucks, I can do it, and Slashdot can sue me if their readership suddenly drops due to my crusade (yeah, right!) but they certainly can't sue the city for having a street there for me to scream in.
I do think that the proprietor of the website should work on a better filtering system, surely the content of the class has no relation to childish reviews that simply try to insult the teacher.
All I can say is thank God that we still have the first amendment right to say that any professor who is suing the website over the words of others must suck. You suck professor!
(Now prove that I've just libeled you in a court of law) (Didn't think so)
--Mad Dreamer
I've had some profs bust my balls and I loved every minute of it. They would somehow show that the work was not only important for finding a grading scale but also for our own tangible good. There are hard profs and there are hard profs that INSPIRE.
I'll also say that some profs are more inspiring to different people. For example, I have a physics prof that I like a lot but has been seriously disliked by everyone else I know. I think the reason is because 1) I'm not going for the grade cause "C-" (D = not pass) is fine with me, 2) I like how he derives stuff instead of wasting time on showing examples.
As for students that complain 1) if the prof really sucks drop the class, 2) if its cause you're not working hard enough then enjoy the grade you get -- you earned it. I get low grades in some of my classes but I don't care, if I didn't care about the class why should I care about the grade -- in nowise go whining about it.
I personally think I was graded unfairly once, but its a wierd situation where I didn't work to my full potential but niether did the rest of my class...as it turns out I think the prof realized I was like one out of 3 people that actually cared about the class (and thus the grade as a reflection of my effort), expected more out of me, and graded me unfairly low (compared to other students, but not low compared to absolute standards) to add a little fire in my belly. It worked -- I don't totally respect him for it but I don't hate him for it (at least not after talking with him about it).
I run the site PHS Sucks, which I set up to criticize the administration at my high school. I put up some posters in the school, and the result has been that the administration is trying to hunt me down. I have heard from students who have heard from teachers, and one with direct knowledge of the administration, that I am a high priority.
I have been able to remain anonymous thus far, and while some have criticized me for doing so, I think it's the only safe thing for now.
The school administration should not be able to punish students for using their free speech to criticize the school. But they do, and while the student may be able to win in court eventually, that is something no one wants to go through.
Anyway, to any other high school students out there contemplating setting up a website, I say go for it. You may want to remain anonymous for safety though. In any case, I would highly recommend making it abundantly clear that if the administration tries to retaliate in any way, you will also. The last thing the principal wants is your URL on the front page of your local paper, or on huge signs around the town. If they know you won't give up, they may think twice before giving you some Draconian punishment.
The other aspects of your post are dealt with in other replies, so I'll leave them there. Besides, I tried responding and ended up with a five-page rant on the differences between a teacher who is simply hard and a teacher who is both hard and good, since you obviously don't understand that. Yes, a good teacher is demanding, but it takes much more than high standards to make a good teacher. Take it from someone who's known some of the best of the best, and some of the worst of the worst. But I'm ranting again...
o us, and probably all five. In other words, a total bastard. Blinded by their own prejudices, they can't possibly conceive of the possibility that I just might have a human heart. And while I do derive a bit of perverse pleasure from proving them wrong every single time, I still don't see why I or anyone else should have to do that.
No, I'm going to talk about the "homophobia" bit. Frankly, looking over the reviews, I don't see a shred of it. Not a single reviewer gave any indication of having a problem with the fact that the professor was gay. Plenty of them had problems with the fact that the professor was a jerk about being gay. I don't blame them; I also have problems with people who are jerks about being gay. Just as I have problems with people who are jerks about being straight, bi, celibate, or whatever. Does that make me homophobic? I don't particularly think so; just someone who doesn't like jerks.
For that matter, there's another thing I don't like. And it has some bearing on your post. Some people reading this might have seen this rant some time ago, but I think it applies again here. I'll put it to you straight: I'm white, male, Republican, straight, and Christian. Because of those factors, I find that every single thing I say and do is scrutinized quite intensely by people who don't even know me, looking for the slightest trace of racism, sexism, reactionism, homophobia, and lunatic zealotry. Why? Simply put, because of several coincidences involving my birth and subsequent upbringing, they assume I'm at least some combination of racist/misogynist/reactionary/homophobic/overzeal
You are no different from them. You took the words of people you don't even know. Not finding anything immediately offensive to support your own prejudice, you read something completely inappropriate from the posts with absolutely no evidence to support your claims. And then you waltzed into Slashdot accusing them of homophobia.
Racism, sexism, homophobia, hypersensitivity (be it racial, religious, political, or whatever in origin); they're all the same thing. They come from the same sources: paranoia and disrespect. They end in the same thing: hate. And they cause the same things: inequity, injustice, and suffering. The differences between them are trivial at best; they are basically all the same. And you exhibited one of these in your post. Think about that for a while.
Read more carefully.
Actually, the review in question was from someone who had never taken his class, and therefore could not have gotten a bad grade. He simply stated that his current English teacher warned him not to curzon-brown's class.
While I'm sure you enjoyed bitching about all the people who were better then you in high school, but who actually turned out not to be anywhere near as smart as you is nether relevant to the discussion or at all.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I have been working as well on a site much like teacherreview.com. I think that Ryan's (Creator of Teacher Review) site is laid out in such a way that it gives somewhat of fairness to teacher's and students. Students reporting on Teachers is a valid resource and one that is truely needed in this day and age.
When I choose what classes I want, I make damn sure that I ask around and find out what other students think of other teachers. Anyone that has been in any public collge can relate to some of the nightmares students have had with certain teachers. I look at this site as bringing word of mouth reviews to the web and I know it would be a great resource for my school. I think in all fairness that students should have a say in who to take because it is THEIR education and they are PAYING for this. We have a choice as students and more power to Ryan & TeacherReview.com.
I think this shines the light on Great Teachers and helps students find those great teachers. Pending this lawsuit's outcome, I will deploy my site for my school.
Good luck Ryan, TeacherReview and thanks to the American Civil Liberties Union for helping him out in this time of need. The outcome of this case might very well shape the future of the Internet!
If anyone knows of anything I can do to help Ryan & his site out please let me know.
Also thanks to the Great Teachers that are out there.
Gregg
------------------------------------ Step into my Office... WhY? Cuz your %$#$ing Fired...
Or by the same angry students sending in multiple reviews, so your grade point average is a lie to begin with, and yet the webmaster is saying, 'Use this to choose your classes.' I don't know what to say. How can anyone defend this?
Well, in fact, the webmaster states that he has been removing multiple reviews from the same person, where he can spot them. So you're probably actually getting a fair representation of how much people dislike this guy.
Flamage can have value, IMHO. If his students are this worked up, I'll bet he really is a crappy teacher.
If I were him, I'd think twice about suing. As Oscar Wilde said,"Never sue. They might prove it." Sure, he went on to ignore his own advice, but the point still stands. Can you imagine the professor sitting in class while the webmaster's lawyer calls student after student who says the class is a waste of time?
-- Support Ometz le-Serev.
One interesting point here is that the Communications Decency Act, of all things, provides an absolute bar against such suits. A service provider cannot be held responsible for material posted by a user, and Lathouwers is a "service provider". He's offering an automated service which allows others to comment on teacher quality. Even if he does some manual editing, he doesn't lose that immunity. That was clearly established in a case involving AOL. So the case will probably be dismissed on Wednesday.
If Brown can show this professor did not feel that this was sneaky, then he may have a case.
As for reasonable care, it's an automated process. The site points out that these are the opinions of the authors. This is not a newspaper that takes something that was sent in and via manual process inserts it into the galley sheets.
It has been decided in a case with AOL (ZERAN v AMERICA ONLINE INC) that 230 (from the CDA) immunizes computer service providers. In Zeran, it was being argued that AOL did not remove the defamatory information quick enough. Even if this did not provide protection, Brown would have to show that they had notice of this. It does not look like he is making this argument.
As to the public figure, there is also limited public figure. That is if it is an issue of public concern. The quality of teaching could be considered public concern.
It is clearly marked that the information is opinion. Though you can't say in my opinion, X is a child molester and claim that it's only opinion and not actionable. The statements must be taken in context. Pritsker v. Brudnoy 452 N.E.2d 227 (1983), Cole v. Westinghouse 386 Mass 303 (1982).
I have my summary judgment motion regarding my case available for you to read.
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I attend Clemson University in South Carolina and my freshman year, a friend of mine created a page which does the exact same thing. The site, http://hubcap.clemson.edu/PSP/ryp.htm is located on the Phi Sigma Pi web site. A national Honors fraternity.
I believe it was a Dr. Li in the Math department (MTHSC) who threatened for several months to sue the web-site creator and the fraternity for libel. The school paper picked up the story and there was a big stink for a couple of months.
Now the lawsuit's basis was that the former web master (it is now automated via Perl) was attempting to remove profanity and total flamage from some of the posts. Dr. Li threatened to sue because of the fact that the former webmaster edited some of the submissions... just not enough b/c there was still profanity and the like. In the web masters defense, there were way too many submission for only one person and he had a hard time keeping up w/ both the site and his classes.
The KICKER here is that I was with this former web master when the idea presented itself. The presenter was another college professor who was meeting with students from the Honors College. He/she was one of the best professors I have had to date so its obvious why he/she pushed this concept. As a matter of fact, he/she remains one of the top ranked teachers on the site.
He/she was also a wonderful connection to have because any conversations between the faculty were forwarded to the former web master and friends and eventually to the web master's lawyer.
So, after several months of B.S., the buffon finally got over the whole liberal thing and the web site was transformed into an automated message board w/ a little math functionality to compute rankings. Go BigBlue!!!
How come no one ever reads the Bible anymore? If Judaism taught us one thing, it's 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.' This guy needs to quit his bawling and setup a student review web site. I can only imagine what professors must say about their students behind closed doors. Well, get some of that out into the open and make these kids eat their words. Let's get this brawl started, baby!
I can only imagine what they'd say about me:
This little bastard came in and told me how to do my job. The little prick. I made one stinkin' mistake on the blackboard and he had to point it out in a 'it is obvious that you made a mistake but I'll let you find it' question. That's right after waking up from a 45-minute nap which he pulled off in the front row! Pray to God you never get this kid.
I bet he has fun with little boys down on Polk Street.
Sheesh, honestly folks, if people are going to act childish, well, make sure they do it right, dammit.
The ACLU sued a school for suspending a student when he posted criticism of teachers on his web site.
Does anyone know how this turned out?
ACLU Defends Student Website in Case that Threatens Free Expression on the Internet
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Monday, January 31, 2000
SAN FRANCISCO, CA -- In a case with important implications for free speech on the Internet, the American Civil Liberties Union of Northern
California has asked a Superior Court to dismiss a lawsuit aimed at shutting down a website that provides student reviews of the teachers at San
Francisco City College.
The lawsuit was filed in San Francisco Superior Court City College by professor Daniel Curzon Brown, who objects to what students had to say about his
teaching.
The ACLU, on behalf of Ryan Lathouwers, the creator of the Teacher Review website, says that the speech is protected under the First Amendment.
Other defendants in the suit, the San Francisco Community College District, which is the governing body of City College, and the Associated Students of
City College, agree.
"The Teacher Review website is a perfect example of how the Internet functions as a unique and valuable information source," said ACLU of Northern
California staff attorney Ann Brick. "If permitted to proceed, this case would sound the death knell for any website or bulletin board allowing members of
the public to exchange opinions."
A City College student himself at the time he created Teacher Review, Lathouwers said he wanted to provide an online resource for students trying to
decide which teachers and courses to select. At the time, there was no systematic way for students to find out just what other students who had taken a
class from any particular instructor had to say about the experience.
The website, with its student-authored reviews, was launched in September 1997. Since that time, more than 5,000 individual reviews of nearly 600 City
College instructors have been posted. The site, which has proved very popular with students, has been visited over 100,000 times.
Curzon Brown, a tenured English professor, was rated on the website as one of the ten worst teachers at City College. Student reviews of Curzon Brown
include comments like "pompous," "the most egotistical extremist there is" and "the worst teacher I have ever had the opportunity of knowing."
"Imagine a liberal arts professor unable to tolerate his students expressing their own opinions, and unwilling to allow students to draw their own
conclusions from what others have to say," said Bernard Burk of Howard, Rice, Nemerovski, Canady, Falk & Rabkin, who is representing Lathouwers as
a cooperating attorney with the ACLU of Northern California. "Fortunately, the First Amendment prevents people like Professor Curzon Brown from
using lawsuits to silence their critics."
Last October, Curzon Brown filed a class action lawsuit on behalf of himself and all other City College employees "who have been or will be defamed by
the content of Teacher Review." His suit seeks monetary damages, and an injunction prohibiting the posting of "defamatory" reviews on the website and
prohibiting either City College or the Associated Students from linking to Teacher Review.
A hearing is scheduled for March 29th in San Francisco Superior Court.
The case is Curzon-Brown v. San Francisco Community College District. In addition to Burk and Brick, the case is being litigated by Celia P. Van Gorder
and Sean A. Pager of Howard, Rice, Nemerovski, Canady, Falk & Rabkin, and ACLU of Northern California attorney Margaret Crosby. A copy of the
ACLU's motion is available online at http://www.aclunc.org.
The libel laws are clear. If this person is giving opinion, then it can't be libel. If it is stated as fact, then it may be.
The statment
is clearly not libelous.Publications on the web should be held to be the same standard as the newspapers.
Inflamatory opions are not libel. Wrong opinios are not libel.
What some companies, such as Mattel , are using the libel laws as a way to quiet dissent or negative publicity.
This guy appears to be trying to do the same.
This is the review, I believe he is suing over.
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