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Meeting With Netpliance
Kalin R. Harvey writes: "Last week I wrote an article
which dealt with the i-opener net appliance from Netpliance
that everyone was so excited
about hacking last month. The response from the community
has been great, a lot of people really liked it. So did Netpliance it seems. I was recently contacted by their CTO, Marc
Willebeek-LeMair, and asked to meet with the company at their headquarters
"to brainstorm about the various issues" raised in the article. He described
my article as "intriguing", and I found the message to be very positive
overall; it means they have been listening. It means there is a good
chance that they want to do the right thing.
We haven't set a firm date yet, but are hammering out the details now.
What I want is to get from the /. community and the i-opener-hacker community
is feedback. Put aside the bad blood that has been brewing between the open source community and the company since they decided to thwart the hack. Look honestly at the situation and consider the issues involved.
What would you say to the decision-makers at Netpliance if
you had the chance?"
I'll buy two (modifiable) right now for $300 each - and then I can get rid of two of the space heaters in my computer room- If you were to add built in 10baseT ethernet, stick linux/netscape6 on the unit and you have yourself an ADSL pret-a-porte email/browser/terminal, etc,etc,etc....just what I could use in every room in my house.
If you were familiar with the Dilbert cartoon, you will know that a Troll is one of the guardians of Catbert's (the HR manager) domain. These Trolls prevent anyone who has a legitimate reason for seeing Catbert from getting in.
It seems curious that after a detailed investigation into the community you seem to have been totally unable to understand some of the simplest terminology. However, to help you get startted, here's a quick rundown of some of the more common ones here:
pr0n - Slang term for PowerOn/Off, corrupted to also apply to on/offline. Where can I download some pr0n means where can I get some offline downloaders
Flame - An insightful discussion or idea
FlameBait - A comment that evolves into a Flame
Isn't the whole point of this discussion to have something to 'futz' around with? I mean, if somebody already has it configured to do what you want, you don't have to 'hack' it, do you?
Well, let's face it, most people will not be "hacking" their i-opener in the true sense of the word, they'll just be following step-by-step instructions on how to put a hard drive into it that somebody else figured out. If someone does this and thinks all of a sudden they're a some great hacker, they're kidding themselves. I mean, if you just want to solder something, great, but as long as the first thing anyone is going to do is install a hard drive, you might as well have it installed already and stop kidding yourself!
Wrong- Slashdot is the digital equivalent of the mens room wall. The morons and trolls and the flamers do not speak for most of the Linux professionals I know - I believe, after having been involved with this "community" for over 6 years that since Linux became a fad item that the signal to noise ratio is about 1 to 1 at this point. My only hope is that the hipness factor wears itself out and these idiots leave.
USB is too immature under linux and PLIP means having to buy **EXPENSIVE** parallel to ethernet devices that nullify the cheapness advantage of the I-Opener. I mean a 100BastT ethernet card costs what, $10 today? Why this wasn't build onto the mboard is a mystery. Didn't they think some people might want to use Netpliance's own ISP over a DSL or cablemodem? And don't say "who would want a proprietary ISP if they have DSL/Cable because AOL supports this option and people use it.
Here is a link to a site that mentions how Compusa has I-Openers in stock now for $99 + tax cash and no contracts no signature or anything. Second it also has a number of less than optimal hacks for the I-Opener. Most involve chipping epoxy away and swapping bios chips around with older bios chips. Finally at there is a discussion forum available including several people coming up with better solutions. Possibly flashing the BIOS in the while in QNX for example and also writing an open source replacment BIOS that will boot linux and other operating systems. So the while the "unhackable" versions are not as easy to hack it still can be done.
One 99$ model with ISP obligation, one $299 model with no service obligation. Push the ISP service independently of the i-openers. At one point, use of their ISP service by way of a pc cost was listed at $26 vs. the $22 with the i-opener. Have they changed this? If not, they should. $20 coupons for I-openers for referring users to the ISP.
That is, I'd prefer they sell as many as they can, as soon as possible.
/don't/ want to run Linux or FreeBSD on it!" (As opposed to the current situation, which is "We can sell boatloads of these if we price them well *below* our cost and require the ISP service.")
The processors aren't that powerful -- the main thing is that cool flat screen, which is "space-saving" and all kinds of other justifications but at heart we all know that it wins aesthetically at least as much as practically;)
I want them to say "We can sell boatloads of these if we price them near our cost. Maybe we'll even sell some of the ISP service to the bulk of people who
Netpliance: A lot of people would pay $300 for an open version of your hardware:)
curmudgeon
I would as long as I could upgrade it some. Which is why I don't currently have a hacked one either...
The recent editorial about the iopener on freshmeat has an interesting comment by the developer of the iopener which was just fired after he just finished the design.
Seems that netpliance may have very bad karma.
Read it here - lookout for the last comment or search for Rohner.
This comment seems to be authentic, at least at another webpage the name 'John Rohner' can be found with a @netpliance.com address.
Other neat tidbits worthy of mention:
OK
ATDT18008719306
+MCR: V90
+MRR: 28800,46667
+ER: LAPM
+DR: V42B
CONNECT
max3.RE4-P17-BST-WCM.rack7202.SATURN.BBN. COM(BAFTUU.NET)
Login: smackee@netpliance
Password: x3i0pen
Entering PPP Mode.
IP address is 4.54.149.35
MTU is 1524.
The phone number, username, and password mentioned is hard-coded into each iopener. Check /var/dsm/d0/nvram.acap. For all intents and purposes, the PPP connection it throws at you behaves as a standard dialup. Can you say "whoops"?
From: Steve Simpson <ssimpson@mediaone.net>
To: "iopener@scsiboy.com" <iopener@scsiboy.com>
Subject: [iopener] check this out
the last msg post at the bottom, or search for "Rohner".m l
http://freshmeat.net/news/2000/04/08/955252740.ht
Remote keyboard: Anyone making a wireless keyboard which connects to a standard keyboard port? I haven't been shopping, so don't know.
Logitech makes a couple of nice ones. There's no point that being an issue for Netpliance, however, people who want a wireless desktop can get it.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
People flocked to the i-opener because it was cheap. At $99 or even $200 it's a bargain. But at a more realistic price of perhaps $600, the market dries up again.
Perhaps, but instead of giving a few Netpliances away, perhaps they should look at selling the "advanced" units at or near cost (perhaps via a rebate, so only one cheapie per person), so they'll get free open source hackers working on it. There's still definitely a market for the cheapie machine as originally tasked.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
From the Qubit FAQ:
Q: Can I use my existing Internet ISP?
A: Yes. You don't have to switch. The cost of a Qubit WebTablet may be higher without a service connection
--
Netpliance shhould offer a modifiable version with no ISP contract... priced accordingly, of course.
There isn't anything you can do to a system that can't be reversed. Many have tried. All have failed. All you are only acomplishing pissing off buyers.
When you changed you policy, I canceled by order for two units. Now I'll just wait for an unhappy customer who wants to sale their unit to get my hands on one.
Your low price is nice but not the issue. I would spend $200+ to buy a unit. Buying good hardware is great. If it cost even more thats ok to. Good hardware is good hardware and if it's out of my price range that I can live with that.
Putting gue on a system board to keep the "hackers" out is just insulting.
You need a good "open source" advisor. You are going at your problem all wrong.
There are 10 type of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
That they would mine the data was not stated openly anywhere I saw.
--Gus
Build on an Ethernet port and sell it with 64mb of memory and the IDE interface for the $3-400 with enough powersupply to run a 2gb laptop 2 1/2 IDE and you should sell a number of these boxes.
I'd consider buying one with Ethernet in a minute if I could put a 2gb IDE on it and run FreeBSD.
Not to knock QNX -- but I've got higher demands on my network terminal... including X11.
Bill
and I'll buy at least one. So will many others...
it'd make a great kiosk machine. And I know of a good local application for several dozen of them too.
i agree with that, a kit would be wonderful!!! :)
i remember when i bought my Sinclair ZX81 kit for about 100$ in 1981 or 1982. It's the same price in 2000, funny
anyway i want an i-opener in kit and built it myself, well, assemble it myself. With a standard IDE port, not a reversed one!
--
BeDevId 15453
Download BeOS R5 Lite free!
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
hmmm. what you have describes is known as a "laptop" or "notebook," and i beleive the market is fairly saturated with those already. $499? give me a break... it cost THEM nearly that just for the 3 year-old hardware that they are shipping in the current models.
gg
gg
Dr.Whiz-Bang
problem with open source is that hackers are really going to have a hard time contributing to the i-opener since it is running QNX. the first thing any one of us would do with it when we hack it would be to install linux, or something else. netpliance is not going to switch their platform from QNX to anything else - if they did, they would have hackers around the world tweaking that 16 megs of rom to see what little enhancements could fit. they could have something like the palm, or the c64 on their hands, and i-opener could become a viable platform. but all current hacks destroy netpliances source of revenue (the ISP) and so they are not very helpful to QNX. to be worth their while they need to maintain their "system" intact on the box. good luck...
gg
gg
Dr.Whiz-Bang
The biggest expense that these guys could possibly encounter would be to change something in the manufacturing process (that is, besides a bunch of geeks buying the iopener and not paying for hte service). These boxes are cranked out as quickly and as cheaply as possible to keep their cost on the box as low as possible. If you want those features, the best you could hope for would be to build them yourself - that's the hack value of the box.
gg
gg
Dr.Whiz-Bang
I'd like to see Netpliance follow the following steps:
Wyse has been producing essentially the same products for years without ever breaking into the mass-market. You could leap-frog them by supporting and using the hardware hackers whose attention you've caught. Remember that the same folks buying and twiddling with your boxes are the same ones who influence billions in hardware purchases.
Here's an example of a product I'd like to see and how it could develop:
The only danger I see for Netpliance from all of this? Someone else grabbing this model and taking advantage of it. iOpeners aren't exactly rocket-science these days so it wouldn't be too hard for someone to scoop this opportunity away from Netpliance. You've got the buzz right now but that could quickly change, particularly with nasty business like backdating your TOS changes. I'll be interested to see how this all works out.
-- Michael
Disclaimer: - I haven't bought an iOpener yet, I've been too busy to consider another project, but have followed the project as it looks interesting and possibly applicable to some of my own efforts.
*In some fields like scientific testing it's not unusual for much of a products evolution to be driven by frustrated or helpful customers sending in their hacks or suggested changes, ofentimes with explicit details. I once worked for a company where one particularly dedicated customer sent us in the full details of what they'd like for our next-gen model of a product. Aside from some minor changes to keep components and layouts consistant across product lines we produced almost exactly what he sent in. As a reward we sent him two free models, one a standard version of what he'd requested and a second special one with the front-panel layout he'd specified. p.s. If you were paying for this letter it would have cost you several hundred dollars - you just got advice for free and I got a potential new toy. Kinda a great business model, eh?
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
Hacking the i-opener became much easier when Ken Segler swapped the existing keyboard for a standard ps/2 keyboard. The way to get to a shell is to press "esc", then "44444".
Everyone here seems to think, that it's easy for Netpliance to add HDD's and whatnot to these. One thing that you are forgetting, is that currently this machine is a sealed box. Practically a dumb terminal. It would be extremely difficult for an average user to blow it up. The OS is on a non-volatile, non-crashable media. As long as the chips don't fail, it's gonna run forever.
If the company started selling all these new configurations, especially if they start selling with a HDD installed. Suddenly their support consts are gonna skyrocket. Now you have to deal with people erasing their systems. Adding on plug-ins, and new software that doesn't work right. All manner of stuff, that's gonna blow the platform. And since the company is selling these as a standard configuration. All the neophytes that are buying them, will expect to be cared for, just like with any other computer.
I think the company is between a rock, and a hard place. If they change the system, to make it a hackers dream, how do they differentiate them in the market, so they don't kill themselves supporting these things? Frankly right now, they have it pretty good. It's to the point, where you have to be fairly dedicated to hack one now. And it's pretty clear that once you do, you're on your own for support. So not too many people are gonna get them, for other than the original design, which is the company's cash cow. And those that do, will cost the company little in lost ISP revenue. And nothing at all in ongoing support.
"Politicians are interested in people. Not that this is always a virtue. Fleas are interested in dogs." P.J. O'Rourke
It is a testament to their engineers that they came up with a design that inspires so much interest in the, uhm, user community. People who have all kinds of hardware are spending (relatively) *large* amounts to have a low-end WinChip system. Two months ago you could *give away* a WinChip system, now you cant stock them fast enough. Even $40 S/H charges are not diminishing intrest too severely...
I would suggest that Netpliance realize that they have a good design, and that they consider offering a similar design but with an eye towards the thin client market. A model of the I-Opener (I-Wide-Opener?) that you could ship with a BIOS and OS install that would accomodate a Win2K ICA terminal server client, and maybe even a way to drop an X Term software package... The price could start at $500, and drop for volume (I would think), with volume increasing as your starting price approaches $200. As for small PCs (I-Openers with HD installed) I would suggest avoiding that market, unless you want to sell systems with built-in mass storage (you include the HD) or provide a simple after-market connection without requireing opening up the case (SCSI? USB?)
I think you should insist on *not* shipping and consumer OSs on the units (no Win-anything), as the cost will crush the value these units represent and the need for *another* Windows box is slight, at best.
You need to embrace and celebrate the differences in your offerings compared with YAWPC (Yet Another Windows PC) - don't compete with eMachines, compete with NCD and WebTV!
Ken
I-OPENER HACK TRIGGERS MASSIVE SELLOUTS, EJACULATIONS
Burbank, CA - Following the announcement of a hack to convert an
"Internet appliance" into a working computer, technophiles around the
country lined up to purchase the device and ejaculate over the system
and its potential.
The gadget, dubbed the "i-Opener" by parent company Netpliance, has
been marketed as a "a simple, fun-to-use Internet appliance." At an
absurdly low $99, the price was intended to be offset by a
subscription to Netpliance's online dialup service.
However, when hardware hacker "nodeman" discovered a way to replace
the device's operating system and actually modify to the appliance
itself-- essentially converting it into a standalone computer-- he
immediately ejaculated.
According to nodeman, "it was likeSthis thing- it's- it was only
ninety-nine bucks! And, I mean, you can do ANYTHING you want to it.
ANYTHING! I added an IDE drive but you can overwrite the flash or
add EthernetS or- and- and the possibilities areS It's- it's-oh my
god I THINK I'M GOING TO COME AGAIN!!!"
To punctuate his recounting, nodeman promptly busted a nut.
Following a report of the hack on the online site "Slashdot,"
i-Openers sold out across the country. Soon, dozens of hacking sites
sprang up, many announcing titillating new discoveries on how the
hardware could be altered.
An i-Opener listserver was soon overrun with messages from excited,
turgid purchasers. From the on-board 56k modem to the built-in USB
and IDE support, geeks across the land contributed ideas and
information and emptied their bagpipes in force.
"16 MB Flash RAM replacable with iMAC MEMORY?!! CAN YOU BELIEVE IT?!
OH SHIT! HERE I GOS OHH YESSSSS!!!!" said one thrilled buyer.
"I can't wait to crack the box, force back the heat sink, and fire my
flesh musket onto that IDT WinChip CPU," added another.
To many, the potential for the I-Opener is limitless. One anonymous
poster outlined his plans. "Ok dudes- check this. When I get mine,
I'm gonna upgrade the RAM, add a 20 GB drive, a touch screen,
radio-ethernet, and a scanner. Then I'll replace the processor, add
the GPS, load the new Linux kernel, Xfree86 4.0, MAME, an MP3 player,
and all my albums. Then it's just a matter of installing the bracket
mount and cigarette-plug converter, right? This is gonna be the
first flat panel web-browser/game-machine/database server/router that
lets you read e-books while driving AND do your taxes in the shower.
All this for only $99 bucks plus $6,578.23 in parts! What a deal!
Well, I gotta go 'crimp the wire' again if you catch my drift."
The total quantity of man-chowder split over the i-Opener hack is
unknown. However, analysts believe at least forty gallons of spunk
was splooged nationwide as a direct result of one hacker's
installation of FreeBSD onto the deviceSwithout ever opening the case.
So far, there has been no official response from Netpliance. "What
people choose to do with their i-Openers in the privacy of their
homes is their business," remarked a spokesman commenting on
condition of anonymity. "Still, even if they butter their corn all
over our hardware, we hope they'll still sign up for our service."
No i-Openers are known to have been sold to women.
This sounds really lame, but I want one to act as a "front end" to my home network's streaming MP3 server. Right now I've got a crufty old P100 laptop doing duty, and it can barely run X and XMMS at the same time (I'm serious: I've tried BlackBox and even fvwm).
Well, I was going to ask why you need a GUI for just a plain ol' MP3 player (I use mpg123 more and more now, at least until I can get XMMS to play nice with my sound card) but then I saw the words "streaming mp3 server".
Are there any console-based/command-line MP3 players that will accept input from a streaming server? I have no clue. Does anyone else?
Jay (=
Hi Netpliance,
First, please let me say that you have a product which in and of itself was unnoticed until it was learned that it could be more than what it was advertised to be. It could be a full-fledged computer with "freedoms" of access and change.
I can't say I have built up any good feelings for your company over the past month. And I can only wonder what your various courses of actions have done to the reputation of Circuit City.
There is something to be said for learning from playground rules back when we were all children. Ie, learn to play nice with other people or you'll be playing alone.
Judging from both what the company has said and done over the past month, I can only make the observation that the company either has little understanding of commerce law or little regard for it.
As for the modifications which makes the units harder to modify: cut ide pins, epoxy on the eprom, and a different bios.
Has it ever occured to you that these "fixes" would in effect make maintaining the machines at a later time or upgrading them extremely difficult or impossible?
It's almost like burning bridges after you cross them.
From the observable actions and announcements, I have severe reservations regarding the development program, leaving me to wonder if there won't be another "changing of minds and policies" overnight.
Banks judge people's credit histories on past history. As do most companies and institutions. People judge other people and entities and groups based on their past actions and reputations. More than anything, I suggest improving your attitude towards how to handle situations and avoiding the "panic induced" decision making process.
Ordered mine on the 12th of march and STILL have not recieved mine. Am I a happy camper? What do you think?
- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.
- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.
I personally would buy one of these because I want an xterminal in my bathroom that can play mp3's :) But the main market here isn't going to be people sitting at home... it will be corporations. There is a large market for X Terminals out there. I-Opener could undercut everyone and still offer a better product than others. Last time I priced out X Terminals they were well over $1000. If they could come out with one for less than that and make a profit, they would have it made!
No, it's humorless morons like you who have fucked Slashdot up. The flooders are humorless morons. You're probably a fucking flooder yourself. Fuck off.
Oh yeah, and if you're too fucking stupid to spell, you're too fucking stupid to post. Okay, brainless? Slashdot is bad enough already without cretins like you making it worse.
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --
I thought the whole thing was that people liked the units but wanted to do stuff with them that didn't require their service? What's the difference between 3 months and 2 years if you have no intention of ever using it?
They really just should sell the machines at cost + 15% or 20% (regular profit) and then offer multihundred dollar rebates to people that sign on for 3 years of service, a la MSN, AOL, Compuserve, etc... If you want their service, you'd get the rebate. If you don't, then you buy the machine from them at a cost that makes everyone happy.
No one should be expected to lose money selling their goods, just because that's what the customers want.... Which seems to be the case of netppliance. They offered a good deal, didn't realize that people would find a way to use their device without their service and pretty much stood to get completely screwed, losing a few hundred bucks per machine with no hope of recouping it through ISP fees.
The BIOS is definitely disabled. With the updated BIOS (3/23/00) and an epoxied chip, my i-opener recognizes both the Sandisk and the external HD, but then displays "DISK BOOT FAILURE" and doesn't proceed. I didn't have any clipped IDE pins to deal with, though.
Back to grinding off epoxy...
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
I was under the impression that the FTC handles cases of fraud across state lines, since I've read many stories about them whacking MLM schemes and spammers. Any lawyerly types out there who could clarify?
There was a post copied to the I-Appliance BBS (best source of hacking info for this) from a former employee who worked on the design. He had to stay within his NDA, but said the cost of manufacture was $403, before shipping.
The price really isn't the major factor for me. $300 for a hackable version is ok, if it means Netpliance isn't gonna dry up and blow away due to a bad buisness model.
I have to agree with others that they need to expand their thinking on this one - sell the locked-up ver. with a 12-18 mo. serv. contract, but sell the hackable ver. at just slightly above cost. They's probably sell tons of the things.
"...they may harpoon us, but they ain't gonna pick us up on no radar screen!"
Heck, if it wasn't for some money problems I would have bought one for my apartment's living room (which currently has a PS/2E with a 14" monitor and a netcard and X) to use as a terminal. If I had the chance again, I'd buy it in a flash!
And just how do you plan on fittint all that into half an inch's worth of expansion to the thickness. And there is no way to just add all of that without redesigning the board, which I suspect NP just purchase in wholesale from a distributer.
If you really want something like this, get the IO for whatever price, 160 with the 3 month contract. Go out and get a cheap p133 with ether and sound built in, crack open the IO, yank the board, replace it with the board you purchased (I have seen p133 embedded boards (about the size of a CD jewel case) for $250). In the end you have a hacked up device with all that you asked for, for around $160 + $250.
I came, I conquered, I coredumped
Don't mean to be rude, but from what I know, the color has nothing to do with it...
(and please, provide us with your source/reason for thinking this if you think i'm wrong)
First of all, newer ones can still be ordered in the both colors (take a look on their order page at www.netpliance.com), and second of all, if you can actually find one in stock at a circuit city, it's most likely just arrived (or at least arrived after april 1st or so) and therefore is probably "un-hackable" in one way or another...meaning that either the bios chip is goo'd or some IDE pins are cut, or whatever...
Netpliance is no longer forcing anyone to agree to any ToS that they did not place their order under. I had ordered mine before the revised ToS was on their website, and originally they had tried to get me to agree to the new Tos, but I had refused...When I called back one more time, they said that they no longer required it, and they are shipping.
Is that really what they did?
:), they reversed the charge.
I ordered my i-opener from Netpliance the day after the article (03/12). I received it on the 16th. By the 19th or so they'd changed their TOS, and they slammed my credit card. When I called them and told them that I was offended that they started charging me for service I hadn't been using, as my iOpener was still sitting unopened in the box (while I waited for my USB nice to arrive
Anyway, they can't retroactively change their contracts with their customers. Sure, they're trying to bully the money out of you, so you have to stand up for your rights - but you're used to that.
D
as many other people have already said, selling these at cost (estimated at around $400 us) would make them unappealing. the coolness of the hack is in taking a cheap machine and making it into something useful. that said, there must be some way for netpliance to recoup the money that they're losing while still making their product attractive to hackers. this was the key of the article that has sparked the interest.
the obvious way to recover cost is through leveraging the r&d costs of the open source development model. netpliance should set up a lot of different developer relations and support sites. they should give developers access to time with the engineers who designed the thing and maybe devote an engineer to trying out prototypes and the like. then the $100-$200 they lose on the cost of the items can be made up in free staffing and r&d. the neat things that hackers think of can then be resold by netpliance.
plus think of the positive press (first open source hardware company?) and coolness factor the company would gain (much less possible stock boon).
Also check out the The Award Winning Story from the Linux Terminal Server Project.
Pictures of the motherboard do show what looks like a PCMCIA area, without connectors and with empty chip areas nearby. But even if the real estate is still available to implement PCMCIA, the hard part would be modification of the case. Would PCMCIA add much which USB can't do?
Okay you want some suggestions I have them for you.
1. Bring out the second serial port.
2. And an Infared port . You now have an instant net entertainment system.
3. Add ethernet. It would most likley cost no more than the PC cardslot would, Or add a Pc card slot. Come on folks you know you will have to take your ISP broad band someday.
4. Document everything.
5. Create a Linux Distro for it.
6. Keep the cost down $200 would be ideal. Okay $99 would be Ideal.
7. Embrace the hackers. Even if you sell it at cost. You may end up makeing more do to increased sales.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
They don't really need our opinions, they should figure it out for themselves. Build an appliance with a harddrive and sell it for $100 over cost. That way they make a profit and we get a pretty cool machine for a low cost.
There is only one promblem with this plan, Netpliance cant ship what they do now for 200 bucks, from what I can tell what they ship now cost between 400-600 dollars bedending on the deals they get for bulk. Where they make thier money on is the ISP carges. So for all the cool stuff you can drop on a whole lot of money. Infact a 12 inch touch screen is over a grand(ouch!). My guess is what you would want would ramp in at about 900 bucks (without touch screen). Not a very good pricepoint anymore.
I think they should put two ethernet ports and a small harddrive on it and go into the low end firewall market. I think that there are plenty of users and/or small businesses who would rather have a small and lean (in both senses of the words) machine than an old pentium with a huge 15" monitor. I could see someone paying 500-700 for that kind of machine easy. I think that someone might pay a 1000 or more but that would limit the customers.
Gee, Maybe they should sell different models at different prices that target different consumers.
They could put some RCA connectors and a small harddrive (and a power adapter) for those who want an inboard mp3 player for their car.
There are many many possibilities. All they need to do is listen and *ACT* on a few of the ideas.
-- Juan
Then we could give them a better idea of how many people would still be interested in buying these things without ISP service.
I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
what i want to know is why they seem to have plenty iopeners to send to compusa, but they cannot fill orders placed at their company (phone/web) from before march 19th.
i know that my intentions dont fall within their 'business model'-i make no illusions otherwise. what about the people who do want to use the netpliance like it was intended. if they ordered during that time they are screwed.
that aside. the company seems very unorganized and unable to communicate issues to their sales people. i also feel that they avoid the truth when confronted (gee i dont want to call them liars).
john
-- john
That's why I can choose a different long distance company for my phone.
its interesting you brought up the phone.. and appliance that is pretty much useless without a monthly service.
john
-- john
If such a "hacker-version" is to be produced, it would be apreciable if that version had:
a) A non-twisted IDE-contact (Easy to fix)
Also ability to mount a HDD without needing to chop corners off the heatsink, etc.
b) An ethernet interface
Using a standard chipset (or at least one Donald Becker has heard of.)
Think of an airport lounge lined with rows of chairs with these mounted on arms
Or for that matter the other obvious things with rows of seats you find at airports; the passenger aircraft. After all these things must be fairly lightweight. Or how about applications other commercial vehicles?
Unfortunately NetPliance *does* want their subscribers to dial in and use the service: the amount they can charge for banner ads, special link locations within their service all depend upon people using the service.
Their business model is based upon sheep paying for the *device*, then paying for the *service*, while they see *ads* NP has sold, while they collect *demographic data* NP sells, and when the sheep buy stuff online NP will probably try to take a taste as well.
(As they review their data:
"Look Chester, our average customer is 24, 98% of them read slashdot, 60% of them are IT professionals and 99% of them have degrees in computer science or electrical engineering"
"What's this other spike in the data?"
"Oh, 99% of them have ordered a 2.5" harddrive in the last two weeks"
"Should we be worried?")
--Rob
Agreed. For around $100, you can easily get a (cheapy, but working) 14-15" monitor in most American towns that can support three hamburger shops. (On the basis that they also have a WalMart) ;) You may have to wait for the monthly electronics sale circular, but I don't think that price is off base.
That monitor, though, is likely to have bad color, awful curvature, slow warm-up, bad controls, poor refresh rate and poor resolution. It may even rattle loudly when moved (loose guts of some sort) like the Magnavox SVGA I had the misfortune to buy from Computer Renaissance 2 years ago. For the screen size, it will also be incredibly bulky. [Yes, this is all hyphothetical, but I would love to be proved wrong;) ]
I think a small -- say as small as the i-opener -- flat screen display would be a much better low-end monitor than a low-end CRT. What it loses in screen space it gains in edge-to-edge consistency, quick warmup, ease of transport, ease of placement. Add some mounting holes (to suspend from the ceiling) and a tripod mount, too;)
Cheap LCDs' biggest problem is viewing angle -- the best ones from NEC have a much wider angle, and so do some of the newer ones from various other companies, at least so say hardware reviews.
But if someone (Netpliance would be nice, since though they may not have the production lines for this, certainly have lines on bulk LCDs of an appropriate size and a key to the back door of Circuit City) would market a smallish, cheapish LCD monitor, I wouldn't worry about screen angle too much. I would just be happy to slap a less space-intrusive output device on the old P-90. Again, I'm suggesting this would make a great low-entry-level display, nothing more.
Power savings from LCDs are a nice side benefit, too, but *most* users a) won't notice b) won't care and c) don't keep their computers on 24/7, and don't have a bedroom full of computers. Schools and businesses, though, are another story. There's a lot of snookering in "TCO" figures, naturally, but any place with hundreds of units has to take energy savings a little more seriously.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
Computer Rennaisance actually has a cool idea ... but from my experience badly executed.
... well, some were obviously skilled computer users, and some are straight out of a used car lot parody.
Based on my while-ago experience, but also backed up by recent phone inquiries for specific things (like a used AMd K6-2 400) The sales guys
Now each CR store is separately owned, so I'm sure it depends which one you go to. I don't know the nature of their franchise / logo sharing / whatever, but it seems like the all the CR prices I've seen have been terrible. Added to which, if you open the case on one of their complete systems, you void the warranty -- you can't even be sure they've sold you what they say they have, or check which rev. of a cerain piece of hardware you have.
The used computer market has the potential to be really vibrant -- but at the prices used stores charge, they will be limited to the ignorant and helpless. (Ignorance can be overcome, but helplessness can't be helped;) ) Not a small demographic, but this makes them less useful to people who'd like abundant, local, cheap, non-cutting edge computer supplies.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
Open Source help is a good way to expand the possibilites... how about thin client / NC for connection to M$ terminal server, Citrix, and Sun's NetRay stuff. Most of the current clients for these are pricey ($500 and up without monitor!)
A $250 - $300 thin client terminal has BIG possibilities. Needs a pointing device, though.
Everyone will start to cheer when you put on your sailin' shoes.
They stand to make a lot of money from their current model. Everyone knows of the "pay 21.95 a month for the next 3 years, get $400 off the cost of anything at BestBuy/CompUSA" They are selling a $200 dollar machine (maybe $600 to actually make) not to profit from the machine directly but rather to profit from service bought on a month to month basis.
What netpliance should do is be upfront about the cost to produce these things. Is it less than $99 as some rumors have stated.. is it $239 like their SEC filing? Or is it $500 like there penalty fee. Most people understand that retail sales adds another 30% to the cost. Be honest with the pricing.. and offer to sell the units at a fair price and a lot of people will jump for it. Price sells...
/. article noted.. the hunger is there for wireless webpads.. how about removing the stand and adding a 802.11 card?
Some of the other OEM's might want to take note of this demand.. as another
As the IMac proved.. the best way to compete in today's market is to be different.
>the Magnavox SVGA I had the misfortune to buy >from Computer Renaissance 2 years ago
used computer shops like that are the reason i'd be interested in purchasing something *NEW* like this... they make a mint off of old tech, and the people who wouldn't know any better buying a 200 meg hdd for 100$! rather than purchasing some bulky overpriced used system from computer renaissance, i can get a perfect-sized lan party machine (starcraft sessions..... mmm.)
Now that I've seen one, played with it a bit, and am about to pack it up to ship to the Sis-In-Law; I would definately like to have two or three for the house to use for... whatever. X terminals, remote MP3 stations, general hobby stuff.
Purchase points:
$250-$350/unit
Ethernet (10/100)
IDE with drive mounting brackets
No ISP contract required
I'm seriously considering getting Netpliance I-Openers for my mom and my mother-in-law.
14.1 XGA, Onboard NIC w/boot prom, USB. Price point less than $1000US. This would be a great product for home/small offices.
Coffee shops would love to have this. Buy this with DSL, and charge your customers X dolalrs per hour, and the Iopeners would pay for themselves. if they break, fine, fix it or just buy a new one.
I had 4 I-openers on order from CC.
One for grandparents in PA, one for great aunt.
The other two units were to be dumb consoles in a test project for home automation.
After waiting nearly 45 days, and not hearing anything good from Netappliance, we cancelled the order.
The attempt to retroactively change the TOS through strong arm tactics violates Georgia contract law.
Even if Netappliance WERE to sell a unit, appropriately priced to not be a loss leader, I personally would not purchase ANY units from them in the future, nor would I associate my name, we wont argue that value , with any open source project to be used in ANY of their future endeavors, nor would I recommend them to my home electronic consumer customers. I understand the concept of loss leaders. I understand the need to revamp ones service agreements to close loop holes. But, when a company attempts to change agreements in the past, that company does not deserve any future respect from consumers. A mistake in sales in one thing, but a mistake in integrity is quite different. Thats what I would say to them.
----- LoboSoft specializes in Digital Language Lab
You might have heard of the DEC Alpha. It's a 64 bit architecure supported by Linux and FreeBSD. The models are numbered thusly:
There are some tweaks to the above CPUs, like the 21066 and the 21164PC. These are usually slightly modified Alphas, sometimes with more cache or workstation-bound, rather than servers.
The ultimate in low-end Alphas is the Multia, also called the Universal Desktop Box (UDB). The Multia uses a 21066 running at either 166 MHz or 233 MHz. The speed is comparable to a Pentium 75 or 100 in integer performance, and around a 200 MHz Pentium in floating point.
The Multia comes in a slimline case about the size of a laptop. It's got everything integrated on the motherboard: two megabyte high, performance PCI video; 44 pin 2.5" laptop IDE interface; fast SCSI-2 (10MB/s) internal and external connectors; decent quality sound chip, capable of good MP3 playback; two external PCMCIA slots; two serial and one parallel port; floppy drive; and optional internal 340MB or 540MB SCSI-2 hard drive. It also optionally comes with two 72 pin parity SIMMs (they must be installed in pairs, and there are four slots). The memory is JEDEC standard, which means you can use normal, PC SIMMs, but they must be true parity (ie, x36 SIMMs).
You can get a complete 166 MHz Multia, with 24MB RAM (dual 12MB modules), 320/540MB hard drive, case, and everything else mentioned above on eBay for between $100 and $200, depending on how many people have bid on it. It's quite easy to find them complete for $120, but you might want to settle for buying a barebones system (no hard drive, no memory) for $75 to $120, if you already have an external hard drive and/or parity SIMMS.
I bought mine new in the box for $120 shipped. It didn't come with memory, hard drive, or floppy disk. Unfortunately, the Multia floppy disk seems to be incompatible with normal 3.5" floppy disks, so I had to buy one for $40. Yeah, that's overpriced, but I decided to waste a few dollars getting a floppy now than search hard for one and save money later.
You can get 4.5GB SCSI-2 hard drives on eBay for less than $100, external SCSI-2 enclosures for less than $50, and external SCSI-2 CDROMs for less than $25. This is if you wish to have a standalone workstation. The Multia will work just fine as a diskless client or even headless.
I bought a 14" SVGA monitor at a computer show for $25, and it works great with the Multia. The Multia supports up to 1280x1024, which is much more than my old SVGA monitor can do. Incidentally, it's a DEC monitor. :)
I'm not sure how to do the 10" LCD screen, but I'm sure you could come up with something if you looked on eBay. In fact, I did see a 10" LCD screen on eBay a little while ago, but it required a proprietary ISA controller card. Someone has to be manufacturing these things if Netpliance is using them, though.
If you need more info, you can go to the AlphaLinux web page, which has incredible amounts of info on DEC Alphas and Multias. If you wish, you can also e-mail me at mkracht@aye.net .
I hope this information is of use, and I hope someone sees it so long after the story is posted...
My GHOD, man! These devices have such INCREDIBLY wide possibilities, they should really be a little more leniant. Cheap kisoks and corporate network nodes are jsut two of the things that leap to my mind. (Just think of the marketing possibilities!)
It is by caffiene alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of java that thoughts acquire speed, hands acquire
By the way,
if you have any cheap way to get an audio I/O on it, we'll be happy because a normal car mp3 player cost near $1000.
PS. Forget about costly upgrades like "bigger screen" it's not cost efficient at all.
Netplience will be guaranteed to lose bare bottom if AOL comes up with thier little net apliance device. So better do something to boost the market share right now.
wow. try that in the year 2003. do you know how expensive a touchscreen is? If they can do that for $200 i'll be 3 dozen.
People have used 128Megs SODMM on the original i-opener. I fail to see why you would need something more.
But, there's one good point. Mod kit I-opener may come without any RAM so that we can buy what we need.
This actually bring up a very insteresting point. Netpliance have only a few months to take advantage for being the first on the market. After this, the market competitors will come in and they won't stand much of a chance against big players.
Unfortunately, Netpliance chose to destroy its own reputation on customer service. Destroy customers trust, and the trust of the open source community. Our entire community is based on merit, we simply will not support a company that lies and schemes us.
The ball is on thier hand. But the window of oppurtunity is closing for Netpliance.
Setup that nasty terms of use contract to try to scare away any customer they might get. And if THEY cancel the contract, they still claim they can charge the money ($499).
Reprogrammed the BIOS to not boot off the IDE header and put epoxy on the BIOS chip
Clipped some IDE pins usually 4
However, you can scratch the epoxy off and get a copy of the old BIOS and it still boots. You can replace the pins a number of ways, including soldering the cable directly to the stub of the pin still left. Lastly, they aren't breaking IDE pins off all units, just some, but it seems all the units have the new BIOS and epoxy.
It is still hackable, and it is still very easy to hack. You might get lucky and get a unit with the IDE intact and only have to worry about the epoxy. Get one that isn't eraseable, because the unit is programmed to be flashed remotely. However, with it running your own OS, who cares.
Let's face it, they have all the sense God gave a Windoze box. They apparently don't see the oppurtunity they are missing by selling this thing at a price that makes them a little profit which woul dprobably be around $425, according to rumor of the cost being $403. So, that being the case, is it worth $425 to get a 200Mhz Pentium class box?
Regardless of what happens there's still a certain hackable number of I-openers out there. They are going to be available in swap meets, garage sales, etc. Will Netpliance release to us, the serial numbers that are hackable? That would at least enable us to find those easily for sale, and it's not going to hurt Netpliance's business anyway.
Good luck modifying them. By the time they ship you won't be able to. At least not easily, it not to hard to remove the hard drive connector from the motherboard or jury rig the controller so it won't except IDE drives.
Tackle
:)
:)
These puppies can be sooo useful, but they gotta be cheap, otherwise I can buy a couple more CTX cheapo boxes for $300. At least those are chip/slot/ram upgradable. MP3 server frontends, In-car mp3 players, X-box screens. There are so many uses. I'd buy more than one for sure.
Fook it all!
The price we pay for immortality... is death. Narnia The Great Fall
Sorry, but NetPliance has already ruined any chance it ever had of doing business with me.
The question I would ask, eyelashes batting, cap in hand, would be:
"Do you want an Australian distributor?"
:-)
By the way, guys, I have two words for your reasonably cheap thin client-ey thing for offices:
Sun and Ray.
To quote the vernacular, they go off like a frog in a sock.
(And yes, +1 is as low as I can post this.)
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
I definitely think it's worth it. Now just add a wireless FM keyboard and Linux drivers and it's over for the desktops.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
i was definitely interested in checking one of these out when i first saw them, but i was too late to miss the $99 steal-from-Netpliance special.
:)
:)
maybe my requirements aren't the same as everybody elses, but if Netpliance wants to sell to me, i would want the following changes, in order of preference:
1. No modem. give me 10BaseT instead. (an absolute must)
2. Touch screen, ideally (please!
3. small harddrive, though i'd prefer to make it cheaper to come without one, but continue to be able to add one if necessary ala the hack (i would be loading everything off the server anyhow)
and the cost should be between $300-$500. i'd pick one (or two or three) up for sure!
- jason
You're a company, you've got to make a profit. You can't waste resources at the company selling these products at hardware cost. Thats a losing venture and I don't think anyone here would argue with you on that.
I honestly have no idea what these things cost to produce, but at this point you almost have no choice but to go the route of normal ISP's. You probably can't afford to keep, organize and produce two models of your netpliance unit.
Pick a price, sell the unit for retail with a rebate if you sign up for service and leave the IDE slot on the mainboard. Sell upgrade parts, at decent markup as well, to turn them into linux computers. Even sell pre-installed Linux Devices. Have them pre-configured to use your ISP, or include notes on how to make them do that. The linux community is thrilled with choices, give us the option to use your ISP and we might actually take it. Either way, you made a profit on the selling of the computer anyway.
And I'm sure your thinking... "What If I had just never put that IDE slot on the original I-Opener." Well, for one, you sure wouldn't have got the publicity you've got so far, albeit some is negative. Now, you stand to gain something from all of the publicity if you handle the situation correctly, even the negative publicity.
--
Twivel
Excellent article, I think you caught the main points. My two cents - I am not sure the idea of selling "pre-hacked" models is a winner - first off any complication in the assembly line increases costs, second it seems possible that part of the appeal of the thing IS having to hack it yourself. But definately back off from the do not hack bs, definately sell it two at two different prices, one a loss leader with the isp obligation, the other at just over cost for the developers. Just over cost because the cheaper it is the more will be bought to be hacked, and netpliance should realise a gain in terms of technology on this down the road so it's still worthwhile.
The current situation cannot be favourable to them - even with the 90 day ISP requirement the thing is *still* a loss if that's all they get - comes to around $160 including the required ISP payments no? It's a tough spot they are in, but if they play it just right they could really do well. The trick is how to offer the non-techs the sort of attractive, loss-leader deal that will get them to order it, while making sure that the hackers actually pay enough they don't take a loss on those units.
The legal prohibition on hacking the boxes that are bought with service, combined with the availability of the same hardware at a reasonable price without the service and with a license to hack it, might work. Whether or not it would really depends on the morality of the hackers - I certainly hope that most of us would willingly pay $300 instead of $166 and not drive them out of business, but I cannot be sure of that, and if I were at netpliance I would be worried about that. Perhaps there would be a hardware change that is simple enough to not drive the cost up, but would make the hackable version worth a lot more to the geeks? Maybe a nic, or a larger flash chip...
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
The problem is that folks get skittish about extended contracts. If they do that, they can count on selling fewer units. Barring the geeks that want to hack the things, the original idea was the best - no required contract to scare customers off, but not usable really without it, so most customers *will* keep the contract up anyway.
The hacking of the boxes really threw a kink in their plans, even if it was predictable to us, they obviously didn't see it coming. They need to figure out how to offer a hackable box that will be attractive enough to the geeks that we don't buy the loss-leader model, cheaply. Using a larger flash and adding a cheap ethernet jack might be just the ticket...
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
6. Keep things the way they are...(and be out of business in 6 months.)
5. Make it unhackable (and not sell as many or any)
4. Charge more for one without service.
3. Charge more for one without service, and make it able to use ANY ISP without modification.
2. Make it free with service, 99 bucks without.(come on guys, we are talking marginal hardware here so far as how modern it is...I still see no way it costs 400 bucks to make especially with the volume hackable units could sell at if they actually kept up with demand).
1. Make the current one for pc illiterates, and make a full fledged PC, complete with HD and CD-ROM based on the current one, and sell it with Linux (no M$ tax!).
I have not read all of the comments, but most are saying keep it hackable. Why? So you can get something for nothing. I know alot of people who would love to have a full pc this small, and would love only having to pay 400-500 bucks for it. So why just make it hackable.....why not make a full fledged machine out of it and show people how good Linux can be on hardware like what's in the current i-Opener. It's good for Netpliance, good for Linux and even better for us because we would not have to waste time hacking it. Heck I know companies who would love something such as this in a POS terminal. It's small, doesn't cost alot and would do everything you would need at the Point of Sale. It would also be a great kiosk like machine for central free or modestly priced intenet machines. The possiblities are endless! I have seen no PC manufacturer that has something this small in that price range (even if they were 400-500 bucks). The thing is great! Netpliance would be fools if they didn't take advantage of this opportunity!
Gorkman
I agree with you, don't add more stuff, just add more flexibility and let people go where they will with it. The more you add, the more people there are who will have to tear that out or change it to do what the want to do with it (i.e. that thing you never considered it could be used for). I do want to disagree with the poster about ethernet. Don't add it to the product, make it so others can add it IF they need it and add exactly what they need. Slap in a couple of PCMCIA slots and a better hard drive interface and leave it alone otherwise.
> After all - this would be just like the 'free cell phone' business model: not buying the service contract means you pay $300 for the phone. I think there are a lot of people that would pay $400-$500 for an iOpener.
I know for me, and for everyone else that I personally know that bought one of these, the $99 price was the main factor involved. There's no way in hell I'd have plunked down that much cash for a device that ran about the speed of a Pentium 150 and had no hard drive included...
People mostly have said to increase the price to cover the loss of subscription, so hackers can get hold of one for around $300...
:)
Why not supply a kit as well? save manufacturing costs (well, putting the thing together) and ship a box with all the necessary parts to *make* an i-opener... people can then add their own bits, swap stuff out etc...
Oh, and add an escape key
Simon
The real linux_penguin has Slashdot ID 101961. Anyone else is an impostor. Including Bruce Perens.
I've seen a lot of companies base their revenue stream on the profitablity of a dial up connection. According to me, this is a mistake.
Before too long most homes will have the sort of connections that a businesses have had for several years now. 1 Mb (or more) into the house with routed traffic. I already have it. What I want is a house filled with Internet appliances without paying $20 per month for each one. I already have DSL, I don't need your modem connection.
Have you considered that the modem connection business is already obsolete? Have you seen many people who are just tired of everybodies "new" business model of charging monthly for their service? (That's why I didn't buy a TIVO)
In summary, build a business model that doesn't depend on a monthly charge. Nobody wants to pay it.
That which does not kill me only makes me whinier
Lock it down, and risk locking yourself out. IMHO, if you publish the specs, i am convinced you will see a plethora of apps quickly become ported to it.
I would like to see two things...
1) A hackable version at a reasonable price ($199 or so).
2)A standard version where the browser has a plugin to read Adobe Acrobat PDF files. Many interesting documents are online in this format. I'd wanted to get an i-opener for my father-in-law as I know he'd be very interested in reading the stuff the FBI has released under the FOIA. But, Netpliance has told me there's no plan for such a plugin... Arghh!
Long Live GNU/Linux!
Well, take the i-opener off my wish list. With the ISP part, anyway...
Long Live GNU/Linux!
Ideally, they would leave some room inside the box (and take out the 56k modem so I can install an NIC on my own), and charge a little more for the thing. Unfortunately, the modem is the only thing I can see that they could strip out of it to cut their costs, but if there happens to be anything else 'expendable', get rid of it, and sell the iopener, not the online service.
If I'm buying a piece of hardware, I would rather pay a premium to ensure that I won't have to pay any more. It's like buying an extended warranty in a way, but in this case what I'm paying the extra money for is the right to modify the equipment (which is also a no-no, according to their TOS), and for protection from their licensing agreement.
I would not pay 600 dollars, I would likely not pay 400. According to their TOS, after three months of their online service, the equipment is mine, and I don't think they're silly enough to lose too much money on the deal, so it's probably worth somewhere between 2 and 3 hundred dollars, which I would pay.
Everyone seems to be talking how to make this mini-box into something that Linux geeks can use.
What about heading the other way? Convince Netpliance to use a Linux varient that everyone can use.
SlashDot users keep taking about Linux going mainstream, how much more mainstream can you get then a device for people who wouldn't normally use a computer?
Think of it as training wheels for future Linux users.
Wiwi
--
"I trust in my abilities,
but I want more then they offer"
Wiwi
"I trust in my abilities,
but I want more then they offer"
1) Offer the unit with service contract at price 1, without contract and IDE flipover connector at price 2. Advantage 1 unit to stock.
2) Offer as per 1 and a web order of unit with IDE connector and hard drive preload the harddrive with Linux (I suggest Corel may give them the best deal) pre-install their service and add a secure web page to their site to get your credit card for the service. Nothing in this stops you from installing any service, any distribution or Windoze.
3) Offer both units of 2 through distribution. Still allowing for a Web order for non-standard configurations. The advantage to this is you say it's a complete Linux machine with loading of Corel Office 2000 or Star Office.
I suggest this offers the best advantage to the company, brings up the penetration and the volume to drive down prices.
And best of all makes them a real LINUX company to fuel a IPO or pop their stock.
Vista, the single biggest argument for Desktop Linux! It doesn't "Just Work"(TM).
Ingrediants:
1 i-opener
1 isa bus cable
2 network cards
install linux, let sit overnight and youve got a nice proxy (or dial-up modem sharing!)
mmm just like mom used to make!
-Foxxz
ePods advertises a Toshiba RISC MIPS processor, so
it would be a netbsd/hpcmips target platform.
There are many things about ePods though that
might make it a better purchase... PCMCIA,
IrDA, CF, more portable, etc.
I believe that Linux should be treated as an
advantage and not a problem.
If the ties between the Linux community are not
strengthened then what could very well happen
is people will use a comparable device with things
like better expandability and forget the
i-opener altogether.
Ironically, I sent at least 2 (maybe 3) emails to netpliance MONTHS ago practically begging that they make a broadband appliance without ANY service availiable. Only ONCE did they responded saying that they didn't have any plans for one. Tough for them, they might not be loosing as much and look like such fools if they had made one availiable.
[iOpener execs]- So how can we keep these linux hackers interested in buying our product, but also enforce the purhcasing of the service contract?
[You]- uhhh....
Have a good trip anyway!
Seth
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
Exactly, they need to change their business model if they want to attract the people that were trying to hack the boxes. Why? Because these guys weren't their target customers. You've these cheap terminals sitting on shelves that are targeted and Mom & Pop Public, and then all of a sudden the /. effect happens, and the Circuit City stores are now packed with a bunch of 12 year olds who have just finished pouring hot grits down their pants. (Take a joke people.)
So how do you retain the new, more expectant customers? You change your product, or change your business model. Although, I don't realistically see how you're going to get a bunch of people to buy your system, when the only thing that really sold it was the price.
I don't think netpliance was looking into jumping into the terminal market when they started business. I think they were probably looking to make the i-opener reel in some of the target iMac buyers. (which is a noble cause in and of itself.)But maybe terminal should be their new plan. Screw the ISP agreement (or else you might as well just get a cheap machine from Best Buy or Fry's that asks for the same thing.) and sell these things where you'll make a profit. Make money on the OS variety (Linux doesn't "cost" anything and you can make the $$$ back on the installation labor.) and maybe you can retain these new eyeballs you got looking over at you. I really don't see how you're going to retain the accidental clientele any other way.
Netjak.com independent reviews of domestic & import video ga
Perhaps they should come up with 2 pricing schemes, one with internet service for 2 years or whatever at $22/mo, charged to the credit card, and the machine for $99, and another pricing point for the unit alone, hackable, with no service. I think the people around here have been suggesting $300 or so, I'd pay that much for a hackable one, with an ethernet port so I can connect it to my cable modem. In a heartbeat.
I really think they should refund with interest the money charged to people who were told they would not be charged, someone is going to hit them with fraud.
Just three more hours seapeople and you can finally take me away from this crappy God Damned planet full of hippies
Hey, we want em down here in .au too!!
SiKO http://stephenm.doherty.net 'echo fgrcuraz\@qburegl.arg | rot13'
Quite simply, I think the company has a product that they could, with various modifications, market as so many different things. These things have the power for word processing, integrated devices, audio/video applications, home automation, the list goes on. If I had such a nifty device, I'd try to use it more than just an internet access device, especially considering broadband will sweep the nation over the next few years, and I certainly wouldn't want to be stuck with something we marketed only as a 56k internet device.
these look very cool
.oO0Oo.
shame about the price
the 12" LCD version (800x600) is 1458 pounds
and thats with no HD, floppy, memory or processor
the 14" version is 1683 pounds (1024x768)
I have a similar product based on the hs-4000 board (486 dx 100 and 640x480 but touch screen) and I use it as a net browser in my bedroom. I got it second hand for 175 quid which was a bargain.
I can't really recommed a touch screen though - very unergonomic
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Yes, I know... if Linux would be the only OS for those machines. My boss insist in having Windows on the machines... at least now (something to do with IE5.0-only apps). And I don't see any Windows in less than 500Mb. But thank ou for the comment.
MaDuIxA PoWeR -----> Down with Phone Monopoly, Down with Cable Abuse http://maduixa.8m.com Linux Machine # 38068
I know, hairy-pointed bosses *always* insist on "win-dos inside". This time, though, he has a point: it's the only way to run the heavy DHTML/javascript/XML applications that we are building to replace the old ones. Even though, some will have Linux "to try and feel this Lunix you said? OS".
MaDuIxA PoWeR -----> Down with Phone Monopoly, Down with Cable Abuse http://maduixa.8m.com Linux Machine # 38068
I agree in all this... plus adding an Ethernet card!!! If it's internal, the best. And $250 + shipping it's a good deal. Sell'em as hot cakes! P.S.: The free 100 machines doesn't look really bright to me. Open Source system has been working great for a while. Why don't use it?
MaDuIxA PoWeR -----> Down with Phone Monopoly, Down with Cable Abuse http://maduixa.8m.com Linux Machine # 38068
There will come a day when the motto "No one ever got fired for choosing Microsoft." will find the counterexample which disproves it. It used to be "No one ever got fired for choosing IBM." but I new the guy who disproved that one.
Meanwhile, at least here in Europe, Microsoft is still seen as the "one and only" way. I'm waiting for the day to come when Microsoft won't be the only choice.
Depending on your timeframe, I wonder if Netscape 6/Mozilla might be up to the task.
Well, the basic set of utilities are mostly done and Mozilla is still in is PR1. I've already sent different Mozilla versions "upwards" to do some testing, but there's already a lot of effort done to just adapt to Mozilla. BTW, there's not much literature on Mozilla for developers. Specially in spanish. :-/
MaDuIxA PoWeR -----> Down with Phone Monopoly, Down with Cable Abuse http://maduixa.8m.com Linux Machine # 38068
Just another idea that came to me from this post: Cable-Modem ISP can use this a a way to provide internet-through cable with an i-Opener that cames with an ethernet card instead of a V.90 modem. So, high speed, no need for a computer, just a small device that fits in your kitchen. Mmmm... How does it sound?
MaDuIxA PoWeR -----> Down with Phone Monopoly, Down with Cable Abuse http://maduixa.8m.com Linux Machine # 38068
First thank you Netpliance for finally listening to us. I would ask that they change the pin-out so I do not have to build a special cable to get my hard drive working. Maybe not immediately but in the next model. Keep the price affordable. If possible go to a ps2 interface for the keyboard and mouse so we don't have to make another cable. Offer just the box to us. Some of us would rather use our own keyboard, mouse etc... Also don't force us into your internet service. Offer a steep rebate like MSN or AOL if we sign up for a year of your internet service etc... If you make these changes and support us, not attack us, you will sell millions of these devices. For $200 - $300, I would probably buy 2 of them. Hey us nerds have mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters that we would love to build them an affordable computer just to keep them off of our own systems!!!
As of this morning, Circuit City website no longer knows from the I-Opener. Retail help still thinks they are back-ordered, taking no new orders. Could be, or could be that the tactic of "You gotta sign up with our ISP" is getting in conflict with the Circuit City ISP sales exclusivity agreements that they already have in place. If so, then NPLI has a hard choice, either let Circuit City sell them without the signup (I hear the sound of hacking now), or let some other retail vendor do it. The help at DUMPUSA would find the setup totally intimidating, and the last time I asked for wire-wrap wire at Tandy I got a totally blank stare. Without good retail, they are in a Catch 22. You gotta be on the web to order it, but if you are on the web you don't need it to get on the web...
As we have seen in other areas, Palm Pilots are still most popular even when other PDAs have "better" features.... it's BECAUSE the form of the device fits its use... and BECAUSE its flexible (lots of uses) then it's popular. If the Iopener is a neat form factor x-term device with 800x600, sound and ethernet... I could see many of them around my house to serve the many uses of the internet (and networking). Form factor is the key to success.
The current price tag on a standalone LCD is between approx 900 (Viewsonic) and 1167$ (IBM). Add the thinnest mainboard possible and you get a price tag higher than the price of a cheap laptop.
Actually a pentium single board computer would cost you about $350-$400. A Pentium II or Celeron one would set you back about $550-$700.
And an OEM LCD of similar quality to the one that ships on the iOpener would cost you *maybe* $300.
-k
Look for the older model at Circuit City and other electronic stores. It has a dark Grey Case (around screen). The newer ones which can't be modified are all pale grey/white. Also, you don't have to sign up for the ISP if you buy it at a store.
A decent Network is finally here.
You didn't knock any marks off for the "'freeware' phenomenon that Linus Torvaldes started" comment.
Or is that covered by Troll and Flamebait?
Really!? In that case they should add a decent graphics card and a marginally faster processor and sell for $300, and port the pizza key software to Linux.
GPS, MP3 player and/or digital dashboard
The size of the screen seems to be overkill for this sort of application. I wonder how succesful an ultra compressed PC with pretty much the same spec, but a tiny display, no modem or screen and a few rows of LCD text displays for the screen would cost
Probably loss making. Thats the problem. Nobody wants to see them lose money unless they act in an evil way.
Besides, if too many people started to sign up for just 3 months, they would have to increase the minimum service time. This would put off the people who might want to use this the way it was intended, and we're relying on these people to subsidise us.
I wonder how much these things actually cost. And does the inclusion of QNX add to the price?
If they sold it without the OS (who needs it anyway) at break even then they'd get a whole load of free publicity. Since the cost of parts will go down in the near future, they would soon be making a profit.
DO you, or do you not, loose money on the 99 sale of an i-opener?
If so How much?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Hes a idiot man. What makes you think he can rationalize it? Ignoring them is the only thing to do
roche
Bah Humbug!
push a model for $300 and no ISP contract for use as an NC in schools, kiosks, etc. Compact, cheap, field-replaceable; should move
I bought one of those machines a few weeks back. It's been sitting in my office, waiting for me to get the time to make cables.
One of owners of my company asked what it was. I explained the whole thing (hack and intended design). A couple hours later I walked by his office to find him surfing the IOpener site. I reminded him that the hack was supposedly closed, said he didn't care about that. He wanted one buy one for his Grandfather. Word of mouth is a great method of advertising.
My boss insist in having Windows on the machines.
Ha! There's your problem right there.
Anomalous: inconsistent with or deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Anomalous: deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Canard: a false or unfounded repor
I know, hairy-pointed bosses *always* insist on "win-dos inside".
There will come a day when the motto "No one ever got fired for choosing Microsoft." will find the counterexample which disproves it. It used to be "No one ever got fired for choosing IBM." but I new the guy who disproved that one.
it's the only way to run the heavy DHTML/javascript/XML applications that we are building to replace the old ones
Depending on your timeframe, I wonder if Netscape 6/Mozilla might be up to the task.
Anomalous: inconsistent with or deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Anomalous: deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Canard: a false or unfounded repor
Actually the "HOME" key on the keyboard (the one on the top right) is the Escape key. You don't need to swap out the keyboard to hack it.
Several people have mentioned, in this discussion and others, that it would be great to have a touch screen for it. I think some people have already figured out how to do this. This would be great, but really not that useful unless the device had a battery (rechargable of course) that let you unplug it and walk around with it. Of course then it would be nice to have a case to close over the screen to protect it while you were in mobile mode.
Another suggestion would be to turn a full 360 from the current position and offer cash & prices for the most innovative uses of IOPeners... then the company will have a team of eager hackers out their doing work for them (hooking up batteries and touch screen overlays) and creating altnerate business models and revenue streams for them (for free).
The Taiwanese manufacturer Quanta actually manufactures these units - if you look on Transmeta's web site, it appears that they also have a "web-pad" type appliance in the works. Has anyone attempted contacting them about buying the units OEM, i.e., sans QNX OS and keyboards???
Here are some quotes from that response:
Once production was set, via a Taiwanese company, and I had put 8 man months work, in 3.5 calendar, into it. I was called in on a Sunday afternoon, I was down with a flu so was home for the first time in months, handed a paycheck to the previous Friday and told I "didn't meet Company expectations".
Two weeks later I copyrighted, applied for patent and published my "Wireless Hub and pad" and Netpliance Threatened to sue unless I "turn over all rights to them" and unless "I provide, FREE, my time to ensure they are "given this patent".
The KISS rule (well in fact I think they suck but that's another story) is just the American verison (read : dumbed down for Americans) of what St Exupery was saying more than fifty years ago, which is paraphrased below :
"You know when a design is perfect not when there is nothing to add but when there is nothing to take away."
Of course this is too long and complicated for fellow American engineers to remember, so there was a need to express the same thing more easily, which created "Keep It Simple, Stupid", thus having both the abstract of the rule and the reason of the dumbing down.
I don't know why but I have a mood to flame today.
"The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers." Bill Gates,
I'd buy a few too but only if I could run whatever OS I wanted. Things change too fast in this industry to have your OS soldered on your MB. Even flash wont cut it unless you can run an industry standard OS and software because who wants to wait for QNX to decide to support Flash 5 or MP4 or HTML 6 or whatever. It's gotta support Java too. Loose the modem and put in a 100MHZ NIC. Video out (NTSC,PAL) would help. Good sound is a must. Might as well throug in a DVD player. Cheesy ISP has got to go!!!
Do as Palm does.
So far, my experience with Netpliance has been one of lies and extremely questionable business behavior. Condensed sequence of events:
March 15: Order 1 i-Opener via web for $99 + $49 shipping
March 27: Order hasn't gotten here yet -- call to ask for status. Informed that the order was "cancelled", and that to continue it I have to agree to the new service agreement. I argue for a while, and affirm that I do NOT agree. They guaruntee that I won't be charged and that my order is cancelled.
March 28: I get a message from Netpliance stating that my order was not cancelled, and to call them. I do, and I get ahold of 2nd level customer care and tell them to cancel the order and send me written confirmation that I won't be charged a dime. (at this point, I just didn't want their company to get any money from me)
April 10: The unit shows up. I call netpliance, and ask if my order had been cancelled -- they say that they "tried" but that they didn't have time before it shipped. They also said that they had charged my credit card (after they expressly guarunteed they would not). They said they would refund the money once I ship the unit back. After some arguing, the rep threatens to actually charge the $499 termination fee right then. I inform her that I will be filing a complaing with the Better Business Beureau. At this point, all I want is away from the company -- argue some more, and they finally agree to call and have the shipper come pick the package up free of charge to me. They promise a callback with verification within an hour.
April 11: Have not received callback. Called them -- everyone's in a "meeting" in upper level customer care.
If this is the way they treat everyone, then I'm sure I simply want them to go out of business at this point.
This company is amazing to me -- they've screwed up completely a situation that they should have come out of smelling like a rose. All they had to do was change their model so that people who aren't interested in the service pay 150-200$ for the unit, while people who agree to X months of service pay $99. Simple.
Instead, they've managed to alienate pretty much everyone. What a waste.
If there so interested in what we think what don't they tell us how much it it costing them to produce this I-o, and then slap a reasonable margin for them to make a profit, and then provide a forum for improvements which they could market to existing users.
-I can only program my video,ahh, I am not a gook, but a joook -The World is a theatre of the absurd
The new terms of ownership modify the contract so that internet service must be started within 30 days and be continued for 90. There is also a clause which says the purchaser accepts that the terms of the agreement may change. Does this mean that anyone who has gotten and hacked this thing must activate the service within 30 days of the change or face the $499 penalty charge? I can see quite a few angry people discovering $499 charges on their credit cards if this is the case.
Slashdot - Top Ten Questions to ask Netpliance:
1. What is the actual cost to produce and ship (out the door cost) a single iopener device as is with and without clip & goop? (I suppose this will not be answered. Trade secret. Competitors would know their pain threshold and undercut them in price). This goes to the viability of selling a more expensive break-even hobby model with no clip & goop, and a harder to modify clip & goop Netpliance isp client.
BTW last week, a smarmy/smug sales types at the LA Internet Trade show Netpliance booth asked if I was a "Hacker" in a derisive manner and told me the iopener cost around $500 to make. If it does, this company is going under! He was just yanking my chain, but this tells you a bit about the corporate culture at Netpliance.
Also, Gateway is the manufacturer of the new AOL Internet Appliance and will be selling them via their outlets soon. NEO, Qbit, ePod, iBrow, POSEIDON, AOL and now Gateway are all forcing a lower price point for Internet Appliances like Netpliance's iopener. Looks like a trend to me.
2. Are Circuit City orders going to be filled? Will they be filled with no forced TOS II?
3. Of the 535 Circuit City stores, all company owned by the way, how many iopeners are now back-ordered?
4. Do they intend to, or rather, do they sell normal Netpliance isp users browsing and buying information?
5. Ask if they will announce publicly who will be held to the new TOS II. End the speculation.
6. Will they publicly apologize to the people they burned over the last month enmass? (In other words, will they prove/admit they have a soul).
7. Is there an Ethernet NIC in the iopener's near future?
8. I saw, with my own two eyes, an iopener (at the Netpliance booth in the Los Angeles Internet Trade show) last week with an operational touch screen. It was mounted on the freezer door of a refrigerator. Is this device going to be a production reality? If so, when? (Got a neat iopener paper coffee cup too!)
9. Is there an ASP model associated with Netpliance's future? (I suppose this will not be answered. Trade Secret) It is an important question because it would mean added value for Netpliance isp users. For an additional cost they could get a word processor, spreadsheet, etc... from Netpliance servers (NT Terminal Server & Citrix ICA to Dos & Win 3.11/CE/95/98/NT/2K, Linux, Unix, Mac, (QNX?) clients).
10. Have they claimed a trademark on any of the hacker iopener nicknames? i.e.. iopened, iopened it, i-wide-opener, opener i, etc....?
Add/delete this list with your own ideas. My 2 cents.
Robert Webb
MCSE, MCT, CCA, Net+, A+
I recommend Thin Client's and Fat Fiber!
I beleive Netpliance's cost is somewhere in the 170-180 dollar range.... considering the first i-openers came out at $199 ... and Netpliance was supposedly making money off of them.... (this according to Circuit City Management)
DaiTengu
--------
Damage Inc. BBS
i-opener, as a corporation has done the only thing that they can to save their profit margin. for the time being. i think that there are many options available to them, most of which have already been outlined above. however, here's some of my thoughts; i-opener is obviously taking a cost loss by selling these units for $100. they are certainly planning on making their money on the service. we all know that. therefore, just about the only way that they can resume selling the i-opener as what it once was, they are going to have to raise the price. the most important fact to realize here though is that they could once again screw themselves over by setting the price too high and losing sales. what needs to happen is they need to come up with a sale price that just slightly exceeds their cost per unit. although profits would be low on an each unit scale, they would still make more money in the long run, because so many more people would buy their product. they could even add the hard drive, cable, keyboard and mouse to a "accessories" line, and make even more money off us lazy people. just my two cents!
- Great Scott! Where have the APIs gone??
Well, if they chatch the chance, the iOpener may realy be the C64 of the 00s. They may sell Billions of simple minimal PCthingys.
I'm kicking myself for not getting one wefore they were closed up. I'd pay lots more than $100 for one of the original versions.
Really, I don't at all mind assing my own hard drive and ethernet adapter, but I suspect an i-opener that came with such things would sell well, too. A touch screen would also be a nice addition.
They should have two models, one for easy internet stuff and a hackable one for people who want to play with the thing. The hackable version should cost more but it won't have any ISP subscription attached. This device would make a good "Wirless X/Web Terminal". It would be great to have a Linux server and several I-oppeners as clients for sharing internet connections, printers, playing games, office work, etc.
The reason people were flocking to buy the I-opener is because of its form factor and price. A slightly pricier version that offers a hard drive and basic terminal emulation will be worth significantly more to technology savvy consumers than the current version. As a result, they would happily pay $300-$400 each--after all, the labor and parts required to perform the published mods are probably worth at least $200 on top of the cost of the I-Opener. Since Netpliance has already performed almost all of the development needed to produce a new version, they could effectively release a second product offering (that, admittedly, looks a lot like the first) that would allow it to expand into the thin-client marketlpace. The flat-panel screen and cool-looking hardware, cobined with its low $300-$500 price would make it very enticing to those interested in thin clients--after all, Javastations or WinTerminals cannot run standard operating systems locally while the I-Opener can.
As far as the units on back order and the retroactive charges for Internet service are concerned, Netpliance must contact its customers to ensure their compliance with the modified terms of the agreement and offer an immediate credit to those who do not. I have already contacted the Texas BBB and informed them about Netpliance's questionable charges--if they are cought using these retroactive charges without explicit customer consent to pad their revenue for this quarter (and make it appear as if they did not lose as much from the mods as they did), nobody will take them seriously again and their stock value will plummet.
ByteMyCode.com: A Web 2.0 code sharing community.
Using the same look and feel with the flat-panel and CPU on a stand, Netpliance could add feature to the unit by making the unit a little thicker and adding the following:
1. An internal floppy turned sideways behind the panel.
2. A laptop hard-drive turned the same as the floppy but in a removable bay.
3. On the opposite side on the case behind the panel, add a latop CD-Rom drive that holds CD's sideways.
4. Add a 10/100 Nic port next to the USB port.
5. A larger Power Supply, like a laptop or a slim-line NLX unit at the bottom and behind the panel. This will give it the upright ballist it needs from the added weight on the items above and the power to drive them.
6. Make this in a Super-7 and Socket 370 based unit.
7. Sell it like a low end portable panel based computer (sell with low end stuff like K6-2 300 CPU, 32MB Ram, 2GB drive, low-end CD-Rom drive, etc...) with the percs of upgradable hard-drive, CPU (which laptops can't do), RAM, CD or DVD. Which Netpliance could sell, item upgrades.
8. Make it where the unit can fit into a laptop bag and maybe sell one.
9. Optional translucent smoked unit case for the geeks who like to look at the inards of the unit while using it, a geek thing.
With these ideas Netpliance could create a new system for the market that still is portable, could be sold without the Hard-drive, CD and Floppy and use the flash to hold the OS and placement for batteries OR a state-of-the-art flat panel computer that doesn't take much, if at all, real estate. And if done right Netpliance could reap the benefits of the Consumer, Business and HardHackers all at once and still sell the stripped unit with thier ISP service to Mom and Pops or whom ever. I one would buy one for sure and promote it to others that look for a PORTABLE MODULAR PANEL unit. Now all ya need is a snappy name.
Yes, I too think that the i-opener would make a great wireless terminal. Actually I have been working on a wireless modem for about a year now which will simply plug into the USB port on a PC. I am developing the drivers for FreeBSD but I plan to port them to Linux as well. I think something like this provided as an alternative to slow dialup would make the i-opener even more marketable (especially if the cost is low).
People could quickly and easily setup a network of i-openers in their home or office with only one of the units wired to the internet (acting as the hub or router). These wireless i-openers could be designed for automatic configuration so not only do customers not need to run ethernet cable but they don't even need to know how to configure the network...buy 5 i-openers, plug one into the DSL or cable net connection, place the other i-openers where they are needed in the house or office and turn them on. Instant network!
Linux has come as far as it has because it's small and you can alter it to fit your needs; on the software side of things. Netpliance is now faced with the opportunity to finally create the same thing on the harware side. Let's just hope they do good.
Ya know...
Isn't IPC (name in the BIOS) AST's Parent company? You know netpliance probably has to be sure that the suppliers don't undercut them.
Also, I bet that in business dealings, Technical Solutions Corp (TSC... the name in the comments of the bash scripts) is going to be very hostile twoards open source, as they loose a client to the free software community.
Just remember that as you begin to tell them what to do.. there are some forces that we are up against.
mattdm: It's very cool that Netpliance wants to work with us, and if I had extra money, I might buy a $600 device just to affirm that. But
... maybe now is their time.
realistically, how many of you would really buy one of these at a price allowing them to make a profit?
I wouldn't spend $600 for a small screen, anemic processor, puny RAM. On the other hand, I might spend $400 for a portable LCD with a peppy little processor and adequate RAM for the things it would be used for;)
Prolly not more than that given what even $500 will get these days, either new (cheapie brands grasping for low-end straws) or used (somebody's formerly state-of-the-normal system from 3 yrs ago, now with "only" 64 MB of RAM and 4GB hard drive).
But *under* 400 (even 399) and w/o required ISP? Well, they didn't sell fast at 399, but they may just have been ahead of their time. Home networking is more known / advanced / accepted / buzzing, the i-opener is known as a cool product to play with
This is what I want Netpliance to know. I'm willing to buy an I-Opener that I can modify at a reasonable price.
Netpliance has an opportunity here to beat the rest of the market by months. No one else that I'm aware of is ready to sell anything like this until Christmas 2000. If they would just figure out how to make a little money by selling us modifiable units, everyone would be happy and Netpliance would seal their market position.
Trolling is the practice of posting material designed to incite a negative response -- stirring up trouble just for the sake of it.
/. poster's opinion as being representative of the Open Source community as a whole, by the way -- most of them spend more time posting than coding.
I'm not sure your post *was* a troll... but 'I am in the middle of a detailed investigation into the "freeware" phenomenon that Linus Torvaldes started with his Linux operating system' belies a fair amount of ignorance... -- you'll need a little more insight into the history of Freeware pre-Linux before showing anyone your "detailed report".
I shouldn't accept the average
Remember also that the community is not homogenous: some of the "socialist zealots" you speak of will in fact be proud to be anti-commercial, and will have jobs which reflect this. Others may be extremely commercially minded, and will be motivated by the benefits they see Commerce can gain from Open Source methodologies.
By the way -- do you see how you have cost me? By asking a question and posting anonymously you've forced me to reply with an off-topic posting. If I get moderated down and lose karma, it's your fault...
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For $700, you can already get a nice PC with a decent monitor. Sure, it won't look quite as slick, but it'll be a lot more powerful.
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--
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As I said in my post - A touchscreen would be REALLY nice, but can't be done cheaply. I realize this - that's why I said it probably wouldn't happen.
So many people here are pining for more features - IrDA, Ethernet, etc, when in reality this is the exact wrong approach to take.
/., thought "Cool; another machine hacked to run Linux" and kind of glossed over it. Later I came back and realized: this thing costs like 100 bucks! And I went out and bought one, and so did everyone else. I/we don't really care about features, or processor speed, or RAM, or hard drive space. For most of the things this thing has been hacked to do, those are worthless. I can still type a paper or browse the web whether it's 100 or 1000 mhz. I've got one on my coffee table as a web brower, and it's slow, but it's the coolness factor that I care about: this little box is browsing the net and leaves a teeny little footprint.
Let's think about why the IO's became so successful. It was the price! For me, and I'm sure for many other people, we saw the original story on
Adding a bunch of specialized features can only serve to increase the price and thus make it less popular. For every potential user that needs Ethernet, there are ten people who don't and for whom this feature would be a dead weight waste of money. This holds true for most of the proposed changes on the board. Integrate GPS would be great, for the four people in the world who would use it. The changes may be good for me, but they won't for a lot of people.
I submit that very little should change from the original IO, and anything that does should at least follow these two guidelines:
1. Whatever peripheral is added, make it based on well documented standards.
2. Don't alter the form factor of the case. The fact that the IO was cute was a big selling point for a lot of people, no matter how lame that sounds.
Thus, within the guidelines, I would suggest adding a standard PC Card slot - and that's it- which is of course well supported and an open standard, small (so it doesn't mess with the size/weight), and, needless to say, extremely versatile. Possibly even two (or more) PC cards could be added; one for a hard drive and one for miscellaneous. The IO is certainly thick enough to accomodate a few.
PC Card slots are cheap ($60 for a PC version) and ubiquitous, and could be made to suit everyone's fancy. I think that any proposed addition to the IO should be looked at in this light, and nixed if it doesn't work.
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I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
[nothing new here, really?]
1. Build a light secondary image (say, separate iopener.net) for the hackers and accept them as clients as well. Either sell a secondary set - open with specs for extending [some of] both software and software - with a higher price, or other kind of bundled goodies that fit the needs of this client group. Collect and publish the hacks and use what you want for your future products.
2. sell them here in Finland, too
I think, therefore thoughts exist. Ego is just an impression.
Even so, those uses are significantly different from what the I-Opener seems suited for as it exists today. For ideas that NetPliance could market the (modifiable) I-Opener for right now, in spite of the less-than-rugged casing, take a look at this list of ideas.
Stupid people will be persecuted to the fullest extent allowed by law.
The other issue is that the I-Opener is nowhere near to being rugged enough for most of what you suggest. Being able to withstand the abuse of bored little kids on field trips or hyper yuppies spilling double-decaf-soy-mocha-lattes is fiendishly expensive.
There are, however, a lot of applications that it could be used for, as-is except for the addition of an ethernet card and hard drive. (Which I listed in another post.)
Stupid people will be persecuted to the fullest extent allowed by law.
Sure, I just bought one for $13 in a retail box at ChumpUSA. I'd really prefer to be able to just order an I-Opener with the ethernet card instead of the modem.
But that's not the point here. I would be willing to pay more for an ethernet card to make it worth NetPliance's while to develop it.
You're welcome to wait, however, until they've recouped their costs and drop the price.
Stupid people will be persecuted to the fullest extent allowed by law.
Customer Service: I understand that Netpliance "got their model beat" by this hack, but I still feel a good deal of animosity against the company for the way that they handled the entire situation. So, specifically, I'd suggest that they react in a careful, planned, methodical fashion to future issues -- rather than the panicked, haphazard, harsh way that they did. Also, I'd definitely invest in improving customer service in general -- long waits on the phone, non-response to email, customer service computers crashing, etc., don't endear geeks like me to a company, so how will Grandma deal with problems? If Netpliance wants to be the Amazon of internet access, they'd better get Amazon-level service.
Hardware costs: Okay, so maybe it's worth more than $99. But you'll never sell it to grandma for $400 (at least not if they've got grandchildren like me who'll advise them to buy a real computer). I'd agree with another poster who suggested a multi-tier structure for purchasing: free for 3-year contract, $50 or $100 for 2-year, $200 for 1-year, $350-$400 for no contract. Honestly, if Netpliance had told me, upfront, after the story broke on April 11, that they'd require a contract, but I could buy it outright with no contract for $300, I'd still have bought it with no hesitation. You simply can't buy this kind of system, anywhere else, now (at least not easily and pre-assembled).
Hardware Improvements: It's looking like I'm going to spend an additional $300 on the box just to add a hard drive, ethernet, and a pair of serial ports (via usb). This is not to mention hardware-level hacks, like a drive LED, external audio ports, and a quiet fan. I'd suggest providing a "broadband" version that includes ethernet instead of a modem (or perhaps have the modem be a module, replaceable by an ethernet module, like on some network switches). I'd also suggest building in audio plugs (line in/out, headphones, microphone) for general use. Serial ports are important to me (IR control of Winamp and a Palm cradle), so adding those makes sense, too. Several people have suggested redesigning the heat sink so the heat flows upwards and out (the current design tends to trap heat) -- an efficient heat sink is always preferable to a noisy fan, but there may not be much you can do. Perhaps use the Transmeta chip instead of Intel clones, for power and heat benefits. Also, maybe consider a larger-screen version (would cost considerably more, unfortunately...)
Software Changes: I really like the idea of the deadicted QNX software with automated updates, etc. However, I do wonder if having a local filesystem (requiring a hard drive) might be good -- I think of the example of Grandma, receiving pictures of her newest grandchild, not wanting to have to download that from the server every time she looks at it. Better to have that local. But you don't want to go too far towards a full-featured computer (unless you wanna support, say, java-office or something), simply because that's not the point of the box (from Netpliance's point of view--some of us may go closer to that, but not all the way).
All in all, I'm impressed with the hardware as it is, but think that ethernet is a real requirement, especially as people upgrade to broadband services. A better, bigger screen would be welcome, but may not be cost effective. Offering a no-contract option at 300-400 dollars would be great for people who want to push the envelope with local, "thinner" computing. And, finally, Customer Service is of paramount importance -- companies live or die on how well they treat their customers, and, face it, Netpliance has not treated anyone -- hackers or grandmothers -- well this past month.
I honestly did not expect Netpliance to last the year, based on the service and bumbling responses we've seen. But attempts like this to get ideas from the internet community gives me new hope. We all need a company like Netpliance, and I wish you the best. Keep your minds open and your hardware/software accessible, and I can promise you the internet community will contribute ideas and fixes back to you.
Thanks for listening!
Your terms of service read, in your license section:
You agree to return any and all copies of the Service Software and related documentation upon termination.
Please explain this clause. The only software distributed with the i-opener is integrated into the appliance itself. Are you saying that the end user agrees to return the appliance itself upon contract termination? If not, what does this clause mean and how would a person return the service software without returning the appliance?
Absent any explanation, this looks like a sneaky way of your claiming continued ownership of the appliance even after proper cancellation of the service contract.
I dare say that if the I-Opener were sold as a thin-client solution, our university would buy a pile of these. The university is currently using the latest greatest Wyse terms which connect to a W2k server. It is my understanding that they are paying approx. $1000 each for the terms they have now. (They are used as "nano-stations"...basically just terms where anyone can sit down and quickly check their email or quickly look up a web page between classes.)
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Sig Return: 204 No Content
What makes you think that $199 is a profitable number to sell this box at? I'd expect it's somewhat higher. Don't just look at what people pay for service, look at what Netpliance gets paid showing those people ads.
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I got a call from a headhunter last week for a job here in Austin. The description was writing Linux device drivers for a network appliance company. When I pressed the guy he said that it was Netpliance!
The $400 MSN rebate "hack" was, IMO, not "ethical" because the deal was presented as quid pro quo
Did you read the terms of the offer? The offer said that you got a $400 rebate, IF you agreed to a long-term contract, UNLESS you lived in California. Taking the money and canceling the contract abided by the letter and spirit of the law and the offer.
The USB port provided a lot of expansion options. Now, should they implement the PCMCIA port, or does USB provide enough options? (Pictures on web sites show what looks like a PCMCIA area without its chips and socket installed) PCMCIA would require case alterations, a difficult activity.
Someone mark this up.
This brings up an interesting point. The assumption so far has been that they were selling the boxes as a loss-leader for their ISP service, what if that was only part of their overall strategy of also "profiling" their customers for direct-marketing or directed advertising? (ala DoubleClick, except without having to bother mapping people to profiles, they already have the mappings)
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Please go ahead with whatever onerous changes in terms of service you need to make a buck, but leave the hardware hackable, because in a year or so when you're out of business we'll still be around to make some use of used and surplus i-openers, otherwise they'll all end up in landfills all too soon.
The more versatile an appliance, the better. That's why washing machines have different cycles and dryers have "delicate" mode. That's why ovens have bake and broil elements. That's why microwave ovens and VCRs are programmable. That's why I can choose a different long distance company for my phone.
Let the customer choose how they want to use it. Sure, give them a rebate or something if they want to sign up with your service but don't take away their option to just buy the hardware and use it as they wish.
Besides, no one has any reason to believe that the i-Opener subscription service would be any good. How 'bout browser upgrades and plug-ins? Seems kind of limiting to me.
That occurred, but that presumes I'll actually *use* the service... (I won't, I've got DSL at home. I also happen to have a pre-mod and agreement $99 box, but if I didn't I'd be tempted to pay $99 + 3 mos.)
It's very cool that Netpliance wants to work with us, and if I had extra money, I might buy a $600 device just to affirm that. But realistically, how many of you would really buy one of these at a price allowing them to make a profit?
If the total price was $500-$600, I wouldn't buy one - I'd buy two. But I see your point - I'm not sure how much of the market there would be for what I want. The only changes that I'd want would be to have a 100baseT controller, and purchase options to increase the base memory and to preload net-bootable OSes on the flash drive rather than the ISP-connecting QNX.
Re: the Devcorner 100 programme. The interesting thing for me is that I haven't signed up yet. Two reasons:
Will I attempt to develop stuff for my IOs? You betcha. But given their actions towards the community, will I contact them until after I've done something cool? No way.
- If joining the Devcorner 100 means I get a free IO before I develop something cool, NPLI has the problem of people joining only to get the toy.
- I might join after I develop something cool, but then, I already own an IO for far below its cost, why try to get another?
:-) I'd be happy to give away whatever I developed for it whether or not NPLI gave me a free unit in exchange.
There's a catch-22 here, in that you either already own one, and can prove your worth on it, and thereby join the programme. Or you don't own one, in which case, how can you get started, however good your idea is, after the first 100 units are given out?On to other things - things I'd ask NPLI.
- Why didn't you write up the TOS of March 31st and apply them on the 17th? If your goal was to stop the bleeding of red ink, it could have been done just as well then as the 31st.
- Why did it take you so long to get on the clue train and back off from your policy of attempting to pressure customers who ordered before the 31st into your new TOS? You'd already seen the effects of people talking amongst themselves; we know the hardware under the hood of that thing better than you did. Did you not think we'd talk amongst ourselves and that word of those pressure tactics would spread equally as fast?
- To what extent is the recent change in policy (particularly with regard to orders received before the 31st) the result of threatened legal action, or the result of a fears of a PR backlash among geeks that had started to spill onto CNet and Wired?
- My preceding negative comments aside - it's clear that you're learning. Why you're changing Doing The Right Thing is less important to me than the fact that you ARE Doing The Right Thing.
- So, my next question: What's next?
Finally - four minor bug reports, and some product requests for the future:(No, you don't have to - and probably can't - answer that one publicly. It's just something to think about. You'll note that nowhere on that list is "it was the right thing to do". We're not that naive.)
Your shareholders' interests are protected in the future by the new TOS, and the interests of the community have been protected by a decision to Do The Right Thing for customers who ordered before the new TOS.
We have lots of questions about this product. You have lots of answers. We know what it can do running our operating system of choice; heck, we even know what it can do running Windows :)
Can you create a space for us where we can talk and share information with each other and with your techs? It looks like you're interested. We're very interested.
Bugs:
- Reports of phasing issues with the speakers. If true, the fault might be on the motherboard. Can one of your techs confirm or deny?
- Reports of BIOS-socket unreliability caused by curing of the epoxy goop. Can one of yours (or Quanta's) failure analysis experts look into it?
- Hardcoded root passwords appear to be identical from unit to unit. There's a telnetd running on the machine. Please ensure (at a minimum) that root cannot telnet in from the network. It's been long enough that a brute-force attack could be close to breaking the root password. Yes, we know it uses a nonstandard crypt algorithm. Yes, source for it has already been posted.
- That [user]@netpliance.com password for the initial dialup. It might be wise to find ways of embedding that information somewhere less likely for us to find it. Security through obscurity isn't security.
Requests:It is clear that people are willing to pay for a mod-able i-opener. I also suggest that the mod kit should be as BARE as possible. Keep the cost down. plus some minimal changes:
1. 100% of us have to spend money to buy the modified IDE cable(~20), PS2 expansion(~10), plus a keyboard with ESC keys($10). That means, if you sell them for $40 more with these three things, we will be happy to pay.
Keep the Sandisk with original sofware on it, so that we can be tingle with them impressed about how easy they are to use and therefore buy them for our moms.
2. Most of us use it with a ethernet card, we will be happy to buy it through Netpliance rather than, say, buy.com. To save some nuisance of ordering and waiting.I personally think it's the quietest Xterminal I have EVER seen. It will make an office completely quiet. (don't worry about the distro, we'll take care of it.)
3. Pricing. Industry Analyst estimated that the cost of the machines is $350 a piece. Netpliance have been selling these babies like crazy, the average fixed cost MUST go down, plus the free publicity shaved the advertising cost. I suggest Netpliance sell the Dev Kits @ about cost. Why? Because the people who mod thier i-openers are the same people whose suggestions are highly respected from non-technical people.
Would i pay for it if it is $450? No. There are too many fun things to play with, I-opners is just one of them. I'd rather go for a IBM thinkpad 240 at $1064 without the outragous shipping rate, e.g. $40 dollars from NetPliance.
Conclusion: i think it's very reasonable if you sell the original at ~250 shipped. if you put the moded IDE able, PS2 port, standard keyboard and a HD bracket, we will probably pay $300 for it. Shipped. We will take care of the rest from there.
The free 100 machine idea is apparently not going to work, don't go there.
Actually, your state attorney general handles things like this on a daily basis, and may have more time and interest in the case than the FTC. I'm not sure if they'd spend much time on a $19 charge, though, unless you could assert that it was general policy to screw people out of this same money. Depends where you live, too. If you live in a fairly unpopulated state, you'll have a better chance of getting help. If you live somewhere like New York city or California, the attorney general's office is probably too busy with "more important things".
--- "So THAT's what an invisible barrier looks like!" - Time Bandits
Why not leave I-opener alone and support a company that is making a versitile web-pad with built in wireless networking that runs Linux. Check out Qubit. Their device should be out this summer and cost around $400.00. It also runs BeIA.
"I am not a number! I am a free man!"-- The Prisoner
We just sold a load of 'new' terminals for use in a POS system. 80x40, ANSI color, 14 inch, with serial and TwinAx connections. Price tag? $570 each. Sell them for $450, pre-installed with a terminal prog or browser, Ethernet/serial, and you can sure as hell take a chunk out of Olivetti.
We also sold three whole skids of year old Celerons, for use as X-Terminals at a university. Price tag? $550 each. Sell a model for $450 with ethernet, a *nix and X preinstalled on the flash and you sure as hell will take a chunk out of that market.
I bought a bunch of cheapo laptops a while back, to be used in much the same way a geek would use the I-Opener. P200MMX Dells, no HD, 16M ram. Price tag? $400 each. Sell them for $300 totally stripped, no processor, no HD/flash, no keyboard, with Ethernet and a real IDE header. Sell the rest of the components marked up, for those of us that can't live without a 'Pizza' key. I would have bought the I-Opener instead!! you'll make a bigger killing off of geekdom if you can lower the price further, say by offering a model without sound, or without a case for those kiosk builders.
.sig: Now legally binding!
Changing the terms for people who ordered or especially who bought under the original deal is way rude.
Changing the machine design for people who didn't order the things the first couple of days is IMHO a bad idea, but they've got to salvage their business plan somehow; I wish they'd done it differently, and maybe they still can.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Example: I put an order in at Circuit City for an I-Opener that I was going to give to my girlfriend as a gift since all she wants to do is surf and check email. I ordered it just before this whole brouhaha stirred up. It's been over a month now and I still have yet to see it because all of CC's backorders have been held until you guys can do whatever it is you want to do to keep the hackers from fooling around with your box. Previously, not only was I excited about finding such a cool little gizmo for my g-friend, but I was considering ordering one for myself to play around with. At this point, because of the incredibly restrictive conditions of use you guys have been throwing around to try to head off "the Linux hacker threat" not only do I no longer want to buy one, but I'm considering canceling my order for the first one, because I don't want my g-friend to get stuck with a huge bill on her credit card if she decides she doesn't really need the service after a month or so, because I think you guys are being just downright stupid about the whole issue and frankly, because I'm tired of waiting around for the back-order to be filled while you guys "fix the hardware" so someone can't fool around with it.
You know what the best thing you could have done about this whole fiasco? Ignore it. Sure, you'd see a slight upswing of sales and downswing of service signups initially as a bunch of hackers bought boxes to play around with, but you know what would have happened after that? Business as usual as the novelty wore off. The hacker crowd is short on attention and big on novelty. Honestly, there's not a lot you can do with such a stripped-down box and once most of the options have been tried, a lot of people are going to want to find something new to play with.
Besides, if your business model is so shaky that a small percentage of sales going to hackers who aren't going to pay for your service is likely to cause it to collapse, you need to rethink what you're doing.
Trying to court the hacker crowd by making a slightly more expensive box that they can buy outright is a good idea, (and I know at least a couple people who say they would buy one for as much as $400, which I personally think is too much) but unfortunately, you've already left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths. It's going to be hard to wash that out no matter what you do. (The best thing to do would be to retroactively stop all your silliness, like you tried to retroactively apply this "you must sign up for x months of service" license, but I'm sure at this point, you're seeing how well that works...)
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My mom's going to kick you in the face!
I agree. This model should be X based. As someone mentioned before, the market for a cheap, cool-looking remote X terminal is virtually untapped, and I think NetPliance could make a going at this. I'd buy one at its retail price, as long as it was an open system I could configure the way I want it.
Netplianc should work with the Linux community to come to a positive outcome that will be benificial for both parties. Maybe they could license the iOpener to a company like Penguin Computing, maybe even at a higher price to make up for the lost ISP revenue. Or maybe open up the ISP to Linux customers. Computers such as the iOpener will become an excellent foundation for Linux-based low-priced terminals
http://chrismetcalf.net
mattdm (the slashdotter I'm responding to) hits the nail on the head when he points out it's the fact that it was so darn cheap, that's all. All the other verbiage in this discussion simply keeps redescribing the network computer, a la Larry Elison. Larry spent too much time describing it all on his own: do we need to rehash it more?
Netpliance used an LCD screen -- that's hot technology that's what made the cheap seem extra cheap -- in a small form factor box. There was nothing "linux" about the hack. On that original hack site, they demoed Windows running also. Netpliance used industry standard architecture... so what? who wouldn't?
thanks for the sobriety, mattdm.
A fully functional Linux box, however, would work with any of my local ISPs.
Even at a higher cost, the "hacked" hardware would find a market in places (countries) where they had not been willing (or able) to provide the net service. Too many folks "up north" are net.disabled, often due to hardware cost. A low-cost, highly capable machine (i.e. the IOpener running Linux) would really help ease that.
KNOCK, KNOCK! It's opportunity!
-Eldurbarn
The Iopener hack has shown what has been wanted by members of the community for a long time: a low cost, fanless, computer suitable for use as a terminal or other device, but with a reasonable degree of processing power. The Iopener was the first such device to come along in recent memory, and the first with a decent amount of processing power.
However, it is quite clear that Netpliance can't make a profit at $99, or even $199 for these machines: they are loss leaders for their internet service. As such, it is perfectly understandable that they make it difficult/impossible to use for other than their intended tasks.
But the demand for this box suggests that a slight revision would prove useful: A standard IDE conector, the heatsink changed to include a disk mounting bracket, for a $299-$350 price point. Call it the "Opened I".
The "standard" device shipped as the Iopener could be identical, but without the bracket and without populating (soldering onto the motherboard) the IDE connector, so the $99/199 loss leader device can't be modified without a lot of effort, but the same design can be sold for those who would desire a lightweight full machine, just by populating the connector and adding the mounting bracket.
Especially when ethernet is added (undoubtedly coming soon, so the Iopener can take advantage of corporate networks, DSL, and cable modems), an "Opened I" variant ($299 diskless, but with IDE connector and network booting capabilities) could easily become a very popular hobbiest and corporate terminal, to be plopped down wherever and whenever a small, cheap, low footprint, low noise machine is needed. I know I would buy one in a hot second.
Test your net with Netalyzr
to be versatile enough, a little expansion capability is called for. First, remove the bios restriction on memory size. A PCMCIA slot would make the divice much more amenable to various applications, by allowing one hacker to pop in 100mbit ethernet for 50 bucks, and some other hacker to put in scsi controler. True, there is usb, but the performance isn't there fore high bandwidth peripherals. If you're going to hack it to be a network computer, you're gonna be willing to shell out 50 bucks after buying it to get *fast* ethernet. Me, I'd put in a WaveLAN card. When I pull into my driveway, the I-0pener, mounted on my dashboard, would connect to my home lan and sync up my music and NPR Mp3 files. No wires!
Hell, I'd pay $300 for a cheap-ass X term...I think that it'd be worth the money. Just the flatscreen monitor would be pretty fly...it's worth the money to me. But their ISP stuff? Forget it. I already pay about $50/month for my cable modem, why the hell should I pay $25 for freaking dialup?
A genius writes code an idiot can understand, while an idiot writes code the compiler can't understand.
Why a hard drive? All you need is a kernel in flash with USB ethernet drivers (2.3.99pre) and the Linux Terminal Server Project server. Mount your filesystems
from the server.
Anomalous: inconsistent with or deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Anomalous: deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Canard: a false or unfounded repor
Want a bare-bones i-opener? that'll be $299 please. Want a PCMCIA socket, HD Mounting Bracket, & IDE Cable too? That'll be another $65. Want us to install it for you? That'll be another $75. Getting the picture yet, Netpliance? You've accidentially discovered a totally untapped market. Don't kill the goose that laid the golden egg.
"The axiom 'An honest man has nothing to fear from the police'
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
Oh for the love of an escape key !! I'm sure there must be some place we can put an escape key on that keyboard!!
I do think Netpliance will have something going for them if they will listen to their consumers on a whole and act on it within reasonable means. Especially if they were to market this with college kids.... not necessarily with Linux or BSD but it would make life a litte easier (mind you I'd probably grow sick of seeing them...) Do some programming by the river baby!! =)
[Then I'd need a car adapter thingy and a *small* wireless keyboard....hmmmmm]
Nuff Respec'
DeICQLady
7D3 CPE
After all - this would be just like the 'free cell phone' business model: not buying the service contract means you pay $300 for the phone. I think there are a lot of people that would pay $400-$500 for an iOpener.
an i-opener with
1. No ISP requirement
2. No modem
3. 100-mbit ethernet instead of the modem
4. 1024x768x32bit display
5. Modifiable (ie, has an IDE port)
6. Sells for a fair market price, so I'm not screwing i-opener over.
Make that box, send it to Circuit City at $300 / unit, and you'll be selling them by the thousands
Of course the other direction is a hard-drived enabled, hack-able PC version priced at a reasonable level.
A PCMCIA port would be better than just an ethernet interface. That way you can plug anything from a standard 10bT, to wireless cards like wavelan, to anything else. Before I'd put one of these things in my house, I'd rather it be as wireless as possible. This could be close enough to work as one of those Webpads, since they will never be anywhere but display items at computer shows...
Like the good old C=64. Hackable like h*ll. And people love(d) it.\
People didn't love it. Hackers loved it. There's a big difference. Netpliance isn't marketing this thing to hackers. They're marketing it to a much less technologically adept person than a hacker. The whole point is that it shouldn't just be cheap, but be so easy that a two-year old could do it. Old C64's while great, were not machines from grandma. Any machine is hackable given the right person. While hackable computers are nice, they should not be the business model. Face it, Slashdot may think it's this superimportant group, but in terms of market power, they are small, and Netpliance is not going to make money trying to cater to them.
Okay - let's assume that Netpliance decides to stop all of it's EXTREMELY poor treatment of customers (ie: changing terms of sale AFTER the sale, charging customers WITHOUT their consent, bait-and-switch the gooped/maimed version for the ungooped/unmaimed version people THOUGFHT they were buying, etc...)
There are a few changes that should make an iOpener fairly attractive to the linux/geek/hacker community...
PRICE - One of the BIG reasons the iOpener became popular in the first place was the dirt-cheap price. Obviously they were being sold at a loss. For a modifiable unit with no service being sold, expect the price to rise a bit - it'd still be REALLY nice to get a barebones unit for $199 or so, as long as there aren't any service contracts, etc...
ETHERNET - Most geeks/hackers already have an ISP. More commonly, they're paying for broadband access - Cable or (in some lucky areas) DSL. Most already have a computer. We're not going to want to pay ANOTHER ISP bill for slow dialup access. Swap out the modem for an ethernet port, so we can hook them up to the cable/dsl connection we already have.
IDE - Let's face it, this was the enabler for the hacks. If you want to target people who WOULD HAVE bought the machine to hack it, include a STANDARD IDE interface. Not pinswapped, not clipped -- standard. A HDD mounting bracket would be nice, but isn't really necessary if it'd add to the price.
NO OS - Since in the process of setting the machine up, we're going to get rid of the OS anyway (to replace it with Be, Linux, 'doze, or whatever), why make us pay for it in the first place? Save those licensing fees for those who can't install their own OS.
FLASH MEMORY - Okay, this is a bit of a point of contention, I'm sure - but my view is, use cheaper, non-flash memory, and assume that a HDD will be added for storage. Save a bit of money, and lower the cost a little.
TOUCH SCREEN - This would be REALLY cool, but is probably too expensive to implement while keeping the price down.
IrDA - Again, REALLY cool, but probably too expensive to implement at the price point we'd want.
PCMCIA - Since the iOpeners are so small, it'd make sense for them to have a PCMCIA port or two, if only for upgradability/expandability. Not sure how much one or two slots would add to the price, but it'd be a nice addition.
SPEED - Ramp up the processor speed a bit. I'm not saying to run the thing at 600mhz -- just make the thing a little snappier.
If they can do most of that for $199, I know I'd buy at least 2.
For the keyboard and mouse, use separate PS2-style sockets, and if necessary put the splitter on the keyboard/mouse.
I wouldn't use the iOpener with the keyboard/gamepad it comes with. Make it easy to swap these parts out.
I agree, ethernet is better than a modem.
Good luck, Netpliance!
Jon
All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
But NetPliance is probably looking for ways to sell the unmodified I-Opener as is without losing money on it. So here is what I'd like to do with an I-Opener:
- Replace the sucky Compaq Portable 486c (256 color LCD lunchbox) in the bedroom for nighttime slashdot reading
- MP3 Player/Recipe computer in the kitchen
- Bathroom Browsing (in the new ofuro!)
- Backyard browsing
- Intelligent Telephone (with the modem)
- Put one in the garage/workshop for reading woodworking tips/looking at digital plans/looking up auto repair info
- hook it up as a voicemail system
- Take 20 of them into my wife's classroom, hook them up to a network with a big fileserver.
These are all tasks (maybe with the exception of the bathroom idea) that I would be willing to pay $250 for the machine, even if I had to pay an extra $25 for the cable/bracket kit to add the hard drive and $50 for the ethernet card to replace the modem.So, what needs to be done:
- Fix the IDE connector (or sell/include the cable)
- Change the heatsink to allow for the IDE cable
- Pre-drill/tap mounting points for the hard drive bracket
- Sell/include a hard drive bracket
- Offer an ethernet adapter (a $50 charge to replace the modem, $75 in addition to the modem seems reasonable.)
Smart things for NetPliance to do:- List all the Linux-info on their web page (drivers to use, etc.) with links, or even make them availble for download
- Set up a forum for discussion of I-Opener mods (Maybe even I-Linux, I-Windows, and I-Other boards)
- Accept that they screwed up before and not try to charge people after the fact for service
- Figure out at what price they can make money on the I-Opener as-is (modifiable)
- Make the case less flimsy
If they do this stuff, I'll buy several.Stupid people will be persecuted to the fullest extent allowed by law.
Why doesn't VA Linux or some other hardware company take this on?
Netpliance has shown that there is a market for cheap-ass, open thin clients. Even though you're going to double your investment adding the mods to it, apparently geeks are willing to shell out $400-$600 to get one of these things up and running.
So how about a company with more of a proven commitment to Linux and Open Source developing soemthing similar?
Give me a flat screen, minimal hard drive (or large flash ROM, as someone else pointed out) and an Ethernet adaptor. (Would sound be necessary on something like this? I guess it depends on what you're using it for.) Hell, don't even give me a keyboard or mouse -- I can get cheap ones for about $20.
Preload Linux or *BSD, or just open the specs and let someone else do it for you.
How much would something like this cost to make? How much would people be willing to pay?
You are right about the hack.
You are wrong about the price. Even at 700 it will still sell, though in small numbers.
The current price tag on a standalone LCD is between approx 900 (Viewsonic) and 1167$ (IBM). Add the thinnest mainboard possible and you get a price tag higher than the price of a cheap laptop.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
What would the target audience think when they hear... (just one spin of many)
"In a world where computer prices are always dropping, computer [geeks] have begged one [city] start-up to quadruple prices, just to get their hands on them. They're called i-Opener, and here's their story... [cut to reporter. interviews include]
[Obvious techie: They were targetted at a non-technical market, but the design was so cool -- and was expandable. When world got out, the hardware types basically bought every machine on the market in two days. I know *I* want one. ]
[Lots of sexy promo footage]
[i-Opener spokesperson: Everyone loves them. We were buried in requests for more. We've decided to make a version of our product available to the technical hobbyist, at a competitive price. It has a few internal hobbyist connectors and the option for a different processor, but it's the same unit.
"But we started this computer to be an ultra-easy convenient and, okay, stylish way for ordinary people to use the internet, without having to learn all that computer stuff We're loyal to our original customers -- the casual home internet user -- and will continue to sell our units at our original bargain price of $100 to anyone who signs our x-year internet user contract. You'll need that internet connection anyway, so we think that is a fair way to tell if you're the type of home internet user we started this company for.
"These units are hot, though. We're fighting to keep prices down this summer, but after that... well, with people already snapping them up at four times the price... well, we can only make some many of these things, and this will be a hot Christmas item. If you want some for the grandkids, better get them now]
Take-home for the layman (target market):
This hot hot hot gadget is cheap, and the geeks are fighting over them like cabbage patch dolls. But I can get one for just $100.
They keep saying its easy. It sure looks easy. Maybe I can use one without my neighbors laughing after me -- I mean even hackers use them! It does look kinda cool.
The company sounds nice, too. They're not milking us. That's unusual. Maybe I should buy their stock
__________
If you can go to bed, knowing you did a valuable thing today, you're very lucky. If you can't... it's not bedtime
I actually live in Austin and contacted them about this, here's essentially what I said:
"You're stumbled blindly into an undiscovered market with no competitors--the market for low-cost, low-profile low-end graphical terminals for home networks. Thousands of geeks are buying old PIIs and expensive, large monitors for their home networks but would really like slicker, more integrated boxen like your i-opener. You'll have to modify the pricing and hardware, do a bit of swapping out, but you can still provide a low-cost solution with a low profile for this market and make money head over foot..."
Returned Peace Corps IT Volunteer
If such a "hacker-version" is to be produced, it would be apreciable if that version had:
a) A non-twisted IDE-contact (Easy to fix)
b) An ethernet interface
The last one would certainly be an incitament for people to by that version, not the current one, if they where to use it with Linux.
--The knowledge that you are an idiot, is what distinguishes you from one.
--The knowledge that you are an idiot, is what distinguishes you from one.
How many of the people who want to hack these terminals are really interested in anything more than the compact flat screen? I might consider buying one of these rigs at a non-loss-leader price, but I'd also be interested in the availability of a cheap flat screen to hook up to my secondary computer instead of having to deal with my KVM switch. I'll admit that I hadn't even thought of the possibility of cheap flat screens before the iOpener hack; are these beasts already on the market? I know that you can get compact system units for a song these days.
--
Weblogging Considered Harmful:
This sounds really lame, but I want one to act as a "front end" to my home network's streaming MP3 server. Right now I've got a crufty old P100 laptop doing duty, and it can barely run X and XMMS at the same time (I'm serious: I've tried BlackBox and even fvwm). I've got around 20GB of stored music, and I've boxed up my CDs and put them away. I've spent a lot of time on my home network and my music system. So having a front end to that is required -- I can't go back to a regular stereo. When I first saw the I-opener, I thought I'd found that front end.
What I need is a low cost, fairly small footprint machine that can get on a network. Once I have that, I can get Linux on it somehow. I've considered buying an I-opener and taking the 3 month hit for their subscription (even though I won't use it even once) just to get a machine that I can hack into.
I know the "moderation window" on this post is closed (which is that first four hour window one has in which to post such that the comment will not be buried in other posts and which can therefore be moderated up or down), but I figured I'd throw my couple cents in anyway. However, if you do read this, tell them to put in a PC Card slot and let us take care of the rest.
(Hey, I just had a thought: Anyone remember Heathkit? Anyone here remember putting together one of their kits? Well, how about if Netpliance sold "Open Source" kits that included stuff like that HDD mounting plate and such. What they need to do is let people hack into the things and then get all the best hacks incoporated into one -- or more -- kits that people can buy. Sell them the regular I-opener and the kit for whatever extra. Then give them a special warranty and license to hack. It'd be Open Source Hardware, and pretty damn cool. They could even give a couple percent of the proceeds to the guys that first made the hacks that get sold. Since they wouldn't have to assemble anything, there'd be no re-tooling and the only additional SKUs would be for the kits: the BOM for the I-opener itself would stay the same and so would the cost to produce them. And yet everyone would be very happy, because they'd get to play around with a Philips Head and such.)
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
My advice to Netpliance is to consider several alternative products based on the iopener hardware but tailored to the Linux/hacker community (and priced at profit making levels):
Each device shuld be essentially the same hardware as the current iopener with only minor variations in the manufacturing details. The devices each cover distinctly different segments within a single market (SOHO users and Linux/*BSD hackers) and could easly be sold at competitive and profitable prices.
The fact that Netpliance was able to offer the iopener at all indicates that it is only a matter of time before someone is offering these products to consumers. There is no good reason that Netpliance should be that someone.
Can anyone explain to me, if Netpliance is worried about cost, why they still sell them for $99 and only require 3 months service? That's still only $165, plus shipping if any, right?
Either they are much cheaper to produce than folks think, or Netpliance just doesn't learn.
The only other difference (so far) with the new arrangement is that they have apparantly clipped 4 of the HD pins, made a BIOS update (which so far no one has demonstrated is "disabled" in any way) and epoxied the BIOS chip.
Well... some sort of soldering iron and EEPROM burner is in order.
Sure, but do they do it with commodity hardware.
I got the same argument from people when I built a field data collection system on the palm pilot -- not rugged enough, they said. Pay $1500 dollars for a rubberized handheld field computer running DOS or some exotic OS, with a low res two line LCD display, they said.
I expect the price for a PalmOS device to go south of $100 pretty darn soon, now, and it turns out they're plenty rugged enough. It's an easy sell becaue its cheaper and the user experience is better.
I expect the same to happen with x86 flat panel computers. Sure, if I had to field a solution today I'd probably find some specialized vendor, but eventually the power of commodity hardware to provide a cheaper and better solution will prevail.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
1) Deliver the already-promised goods. The original plan said nothing of an ISP contract, or a mysterious 6-8 week Circuit City delay. Some people in my area have postulated that the delay is part of an attempt to get people to call NP about their orders, at which time the new-"upgraded"-model-and-terms-of-service are fed to them. Others think it's merely to give NP time to get all the new gooped-and-maimed IOpeners built and shipped. Either way, NP's not making any friends out there. Give 'em the info straight, guv'nor!
2) If NP *must* pander to the stockholders, then so be it, but have the honor to deal fairly with the people that bought IOs with the understanding that they can be noodled, without an ISP contract. I'd guess NetPliance will easily recoup their losses on all the media coverage and brand-awareness this...erm...situation will give them. What they need to do is turn the situation around, make it positive PR.
3) On that note, opening the IO (no pun intended) is a good idea, as are the new pricing options for no-ISP and extra-hackable gadgetry, but it is not enough. The fair treatment of all customers is a big thing with the Geek Community (witness our love of MS business practices), and the perceived shafting of the Mar 16-20th customers will be a burr in NPs saddle until resolved.
4) The new mods. The Engineer's Motto is: if you can build it, you can deconstruct it. Just as the software industry found with copy protection, any safeguard can be circumvented. How many customers is NP losing while they retool their production lines to goop-n-maim the IOs? Signing an ISP contract at purchase would probably be quite sufficient to legally enforce continued cash inflow (IANAL). What does NP care if their customers tool their IO to run BeOS, so long as NP gets their $$? It's even better if the hackers *don't* dial-in: they don't use NP's ISP bandwidth and phone lines, but NP collects the cash anyway. The only way I could see NP not liking this idea (in my admittedly limited vision) is that they're hoping that ppl will be too lazy/forgetful to cancel if they truly don't want the service.
Just a few thoughts.
cat email | sed -e 's/sp.*am\.//g'
I just read on one of the I-Opener mailing list archives that I-Openers are now being shipped with the IDE header pins clipped off the motherboard. Can anyone confirm or deny that this is the current policy?
This would be the sensible thing for Netpliance to do to prevent the majority of hacks over the short term. It is a relative quick, simple, and effective procedure.
I put down a deposit at Circuit City on an IOpener as soon as I realized that this was going to be the only way to get one at the $99 price. I've seence been back several times to check on the status, as well as to other Circuit Cities in the Baltimore/metro area. It seems as if there have been no shipments of IOpeners to Curcuit City from Netpliance since news of the hack hit the net. My guess is that there is a team of pinsnippers down in Austin (or wherever the units are built/distributed) opening and altering all units before shipping them out. Either that, or Netpliance just isn't shipping any at all to Circuit City until the fad blows over and people loose interest.
Has anyone gotten an IOpener from Circuit City in the past few weeks? If you did, what was the staus of your pins?
-p.
Offer parts for sale, individually, at a price that will cover their cost, with full specifications.
I have a SONY laptop, and I wanted to get an extra (kanji) keyboard. No go, since they won't ship parts to anyone BUT a sony authorized refurb center. A part breaks on my laptop? I have to ship it back, I can't install it myself. From a hacking standpoint, even simple customerization of the Sony laptop will require me jumping through lots and lots of hoops.
OTOH, take a good look at Handspring. I can go to their website, and with a few simple clicks I can order blank springboard module plastics - the same parts used in production springboards. I can get full access to their documentations, wiring schematics of their springboard modules, and software APIs that they have changed in PalmOS to call them. And, guess what, my friend's senior EE project he's building a smartmedia springboard reader. A simple act of selling their hardware and parts to anybody and opening the documentation makes the visor a lot more hackable.
-=- SiKnight
The possibilities are endless..! The key IMHO is to keep it cheap. The price has to be less than an ordinary PC obviously. An i-Opener with integrated Ethernet- and IDE-interfaces would be nice. And a sound card is a must. Let it be an option whether it's shipped with or without HD. Make it hackable and let people take it from there. Like the good old C=64. Hackable like h*ll. And people love(d) it.
Remember, there are no stupid questions. But there are a lot of inquisitive idiots.
that way they will make some money off their products,
This is the idea I originally had until I remembered that even at $199 the I-opener is a loss leader. The netpliance originally cost $300 as can be seen at the bottom of this article and in this article it states they upped the price to $300 after using $199 as an intro price. The current price of $99 is a promotion and is not a price the company will be able to maintain for the long term.
Secondly 1 year of service costs $250 ($21.50 * 12) which is about a $100 of profit per year. A more suitable and realistic plan would probably be
- 3. sell the I-opener at $450 to those who sign up for at least 2 years of service. (Total customer expenditure - $450)
PS: We all know that being a loss leader never works out, after all look at what happened to CDNow.My gut tells me this is right on target. All the exciting hacks are in the principle of creation: something from (almost) nothing. Or, something completely different than intended.
In this case, there is a feeling of mischeviousness. Almost a kind of "ha ha, so there" against an obvious attempt to build in a dependency which didn't naturally exist (i.e., Netpliance ISP was the only way to use the system).
It's this kind of resourcefulness that encouraged my company to begin using Linux a few years ago: older machines (486 and slower Pentiums) that were in no shape to run NT Server, or Win9x as desktops, could serve as excellent Linux servers for different tasks. The feeling was, "Hey! Let's beat the system." Instead of paying the WinTel monopoly regular tithes (worse, actually) according to a GM-like obsolesence plan (why do you think MSFT started naming OS versions by year? It's like a 1999 Ford Mustang, by now it should feel old--don't you want a 2001 model?).
I'm all in favor of (ethical) hacks. The $400 MSN rebate "hack" was, IMO, not "ethical" because the deal was presented as quid pro quo, but the I-Opener deal was not originally presented as such; the ISP was an option. Only in retrospect did Netpliance add terms to the deal to enforce their "business model".
Slashdot reported on another interesting hack in February: the netBSD port to the Workpad z50. I bought one of these beauties (it really is) and have been following the NetBSD and LinuxCE mailing lists as to progress being made. This was an ethical hack: take a discontinued but interesting machine and make it better. WinCE is pretty awful (but usable for text editing, I found) and the ability to add my native enviroment to this little treasure is too nifty! I never would have paid $1000 for the unit. Not when a real laptop is not much more. But, I did buy at under $400. And, by looking on eBay daily, it seems a lot of people are still buying these things (although the price is going up).
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
Of course, you'd definitely do well to sell mod kits so that customers do not need much technical skill to plug in a hard drive.
Consider upping the screen resolution. That would be sweet. Definitely an option worth paying money for.
Definitely allow extensive feedback (preferably in a web-based discussion board) for people running Linux et al on the hardware. It could serve as free advertising and tech support.
Basically, have the option of selling the hardware for a profit for those people who want to run Linux on them. That's all we ask for.
Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
the market for a cheap, cool-looking remote X terminal is virtually untapped
I think you misspelled "nonexistant" as in virtually nonexistant.
People flocked to the i-opener because it was cheap. At $99 or even $200 it's a bargain. But at a more realistic price of perhaps $600, the market dries up again. You and I both might buy one at that price (I know I want one), but there wouldn't be the huge demand that there is now.
That said, I think that Netpliance needs to get its contracts in order. If they want/need people to be obligated for some minimum term of service to cover the initial hardware cost, they need to have it specified properly in a real sign-it-and-mean-it contract with appropriate penalties for early cancellation just like a cell phone contract.
Anomalous: inconsistent with or deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Anomalous: deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Canard: a false or unfounded repor
It's been said that NetPliance should take the cost of the manufacturing of the hardware and then add a little bit and sell that as a hacker's eterm without the ISP. Well, to save more cost on that, have it completely disassembled and let the hackers/geeks assemble it themselves. Geeks and hackers should know how to put together a little computer, so that's easy money saved on NetPliance's side.
1. Give us a "real" price for the original system, a price that assumes it will never earn any revenue for you via a user account.
/. nick or p/w.)
2. Consider creating and selling a "pre-hacked" system that includes a hard drive.
3. "Open" the unit (fully document it) so that external peripherals may more easily be connected and used.
4. Uh, er, add a PC-Card (PCMCIA) slot? (Mainly to make adding Ethernet easier.)
Anything more, I feel, will be "guilding the lily", taking the system far from the current design, and thus possibly losing the benefits of using the same production runs for multiple purposes.
My ideal use for a "hacked" system would be as a convenient Web browsing system to have on an end table, conveniently available to use during TV commercials.
From the basic system, here are the hacks I'd like to add:
1. Wireless networking.
My main system is in another room, connected to a cable modem. It has more horsepower and connectivity than the i-Opener, so I'd like to take advantage of it as easily as possible. While it is no problem running A/C to where I'd put the i-Opener, getting Ethernet there would be a pain.
2. InfraRed I/O.
Possibly a full IrDA port, but anything that would allow the iOpener to easily control my TV and VCR.
3. X-10 Firecracker Interface.
I've just started automating my home, one lamp and appliance at a time, and having convenient centralized control and access in the living room would be convenient.
4. Remote Keyboard with Integrated Pointer.
RF is preferred, but IR will do. I don't need the i-Ioener screen to be in front of me, but the keyboard pretty much has to. (Unless, of course, some future i-Opener were to include a touch screen or a simple pointer device integrated in to the bezel of the display.)
I could do all of this with a retired laptop (perfectly capable laptops can be had for under $500), but they lack, well, style.
While I would never buy the i-Opener service for myself, my computer-phobic father is turning 70 this summer, and I intend to give him an i-Opener to finally get him online in the easiest way possible (he already detests the idea of WebTV).
An excellent product, with the added bonus of being emminently hackable!
-BobC
(The guy who never remembers his
IANAL, but since they charged you for something you never received, that sounds like a case of fraud. Why not file a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission and see what happens? I think most businesses will tend to fear the government more than other businesses. :-)
... and i-Opener has plenty of possibilities!
;)
;) and some of our providers can act as importers or European Partners or whatsoever.
... just anyone with a need for a small front-end for their server applications.
Yes, at work, we are moving from character-based apps. to HTML-based apps. This way, we could use an i-Opener derivative as our platform.
We are talking on 500 to 1,500 units here. Serious bussiness.
The requiremets would be an i-Opener with those add-ons:
-Ethernet Card (10/100)
-Bootable Hard Disk Drive (1Gb its OK)
-A way to install any desired OS (Linux/Win-dos would be primary choices) and a browser (Mozilla?)
-Key mapping instructions to links their "unique" keys to our applications (help, mail, web, home...)
-Mouse port
-A range of CPUs to choose from (w/ or w/o MMx, 3D instructions, 200 to ??? MHz
-Nice price
I guess all this is pretty easy to bundle to any i-Opener. I mean, Netpliance can easily substitute the modem for a ethernet card, attach a 2.5" HDD to the IDE port and provide a Y-cordline for a regular KB+Mouse... ot their KB (without the pizza key, please!).
BTW, we are based at good-old Barcelona-Europe (yes, that's why my english looks wierd sometimes
How many corporations wouldn't go for a cheap "i-O-Client"? Not only for HTML but any C/S application will work great with it. You have all the Hospitals, Small bussiness,
I will appreciate if someone can convince Netpliance that they're in the path of a big-bucks bussiness. We are willing to buy some!
Thank you in advance,
Sinner Falcatas
(remove NOSPAM to email me)
MaDuIxA PoWeR -----> Down with Phone Monopoly, Down with Cable Abuse http://maduixa.8m.com Linux Machine # 38068
Get real.
First, only requiring three months of service is asking for trouble. After paying the $65 for three months of service, whether I use it or not, I can take the hardware and run. Netpliance gets $165, I own the hardware free and clear. Now some people have estimated the cost of this box at around $300. I'm not very good at math, but I think that means Netpliance loses $135.
Second, ISP service costs money, even at wholesale. If you get it for $5, and resell it at $22, that's $17 revenue. To make up the $201 difference between $99 loss-leader price and $300 cost, your customer has to stick around at least 12 months. That's right, a whole year. (I had to get out the calculator for that.) The service contract only requires three months.
So what should Netpliance do?
Netpliance should figure out a reasonable markup to the actual manufacturing cost of the i-opener and then sell it at that price in a completely hackable version. Maybe even include one of those laptop IDE cables and a hard drive mount inside the case, so it's all ready to go.
Netpliance should then sell the same i-opener for $99, with a service contract that requires at least as much service as will generate the required amount of revenue to bring in a similar amount of money. Maybe a little more, since it's spread out over time. A 12-18 month contract seems appropriate.
Netpliance should then sit back, relax and let us hackers get to what we do best: hacking. Watch the ideas we come up with and our prototypes and maybe even buy some of the ideas, or even hire some of the hackers, for future products.
---
How am I supposed to fit a pithy, relevant quote into 120 characters?
I know that at least 25 of these 28 machines were to have hard drives hooked up to them, I don't know if Netpliance already has the money from circuit city, or if cc is just holding on to it ... all I know is Netpliance is going to see all their income DROP like a brick through glass when these I-openers do come back into stock.
In my opinion Netpliance should have done the following:
1: sell the I-opener at $99 to those who sign up for at least 2 years of service.
2: sell the i-opener for $149 to those who sign up for 1 year of service
3: sell the i-opener at $199 to those who don't sign up for service
that way they will make some money off their products, instead of knowing that they will have to dig themselves out of a BIG BLACK HOLE in the coming 6 months ... put everything back to the way it should be ... heck .. I'd pay $199 for one, it's still better than the old Packard Bell we have sitting on our shelves for $450 ...!
DaiTengu
--------
Damage Inc. BBS
It's very cool that Netpliance wants to work with us, and if I had extra money, I might buy a $600 device just to affirm that. But realistically, how many of you would really buy one of these at a price allowing them to make a profit?
--
As someone who has had an I-Opener on order since the last slashdot article, I am dissapointed that Netpliance has taken up such a hostile attitude towards the hackers who are essentially developing other Netpliance product lines. I've been watching an I-Opener message board and there are people doing marvelous things with hackable (and some non-hackable) I-Os. A popular use is to mount the device in a car and use it as a GPS, MP3 player and/or digital dashboard. The "hackers" (term used loosely, no flame por favor) are going out of their way by a long-shot to modify these devices for general use, sometimes costing hundreds of Altarian dollars.
I believe that if Netpliance offered a slightly more expensive general-use I-Opener they would be astounded at the uses the community will come up with, and the ingenuity of the geeks they're trying so hard to thwart may become a key ally in the company's longevity
Would that be a C-to-B business model?
CapnBryBrowsing through the netpliance site, I came across two pieces of information that together make me worry...
From their development job listings:
Data Mining Developer
From their add-ons FAQ page:
Q: Can I connect external storage devices, such as a ZIP drive, via the USB port?
A: Not at this time. Everything on your i-opener is backed up on our network. (emphasis added)
So... someone with an iOpener contract: does Netpliance mention the fact that your data will be backed up on their network, or contain any mention of the fact that Netpliance may be mining either your backed-up data or data recorded about your network usage (browsing, email) habits? It occurs to me that this may be one reason they are so adamant about requiring people to use their ISP service with the iOpener...
"Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
What I want in an NC is to have the least clutter. I'd like to be able to just plug it in to power and be networked. I don't care about huge network or CPU performance.
I'd like to see these things adaptible as NCs with wireless networking (perhaps by having a PC card slot) and a small amount of persistent storage, enough to boot a stripped down Linux or BSD.
Here are some applications I'd see for such a setup.
Trade shows information kiosks.
Interactive supermarket and mall directories.
Low end word processing and Internet access workstations.
Interactive museum displays.
Cybercafe terminals.
Warehouse and point of sale application terminals.
I'd like to put one or more of these in every store and restaurant in my nice little suburb's main street, and have a town commerce network with information on stores, sales going on, amenities and services.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
It's true that some people saw this as a way to get a $300 PC. ($99 plus hard drive, etc.,) but I think there's another camp which i-opener can reach and make a bit more money. That would be those of us who, like myself, are perfectly willing to spend the money required to get a low-end PC to use as a network terminal,etc in our house, but don't want to stick a big ugly vanilla mini-tower, a 50lb 15" CRT and a rat's nest of cables in every room.
:^) -- will turn around and plunk down $2500 for IBM ThinkPad so they can install and run Red Hat on it.
I'm willing to bet that over 75% of Slashdot readers don't buy Dell, or Compaq, or Gateway - they prefer to go to Fry's, or order online from their favorite distributor, and build the exact configuration they want. It's almost a matter of pride. But some of those same people -- not the starving students, of course
Why? Because they have no other alternative that meets their requirements (i.e. small, lightweight, portable.) You *can't* build your own laptop from off-the-shelf components.
This i-opener gives people the opportunity to build *their own* network terminal, with the features they want, with a form-factor that no one else will sell them. *THAT* is the untapped market which i-opener can make money from, if they are smart and nimble enought to take advantage of it.
A couple of quick things:
1. The cat is out of the bag. Forget about putting it back in. This being said, the confluence of Netpliance hardware and Open source opens up many possibilities:
2. Market two versions of your product: one is your QNX-based model for folks who want easy 'net access. Second version is an "hackable" model. Make it a bit more expensive, perhaps, but let the hackers be hackers and sell them the machine!. Then let them hack all they want and incorporate the best changes in the next generation.
3. Target other markets: schools, colleges and universities could use cheap machines with standardized, open-source OS installed. Target large corporations, who need a computer on every desk, and sell them these machines. With Linux or one of the BSDs, you can overturn the Microsoft monopoly.
4. Penguins are your best friends.... Daemons may be a little bit more controversial, but they are also cute. =)
Welcome to Open Source!
The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
Do you think that this is open source? I'm interested in your opinions. Here's something that I just sent out...
Dear Netpliance,
I think it is great that you are embracing the open source community by
announcing the Developers Corner. I am glad to see the Developer 100
Pilot Program announced, but I feel that it doesn't support an "open
development" process that you describe.
The open source community works at solving problems by working together,
collaborating with each other. People can pitch in and work on part of a
project that interests them and/or is their area of expertise. People
work together on projects, not because they are given incentive to do so
(i.e. free I-openers), but because their project interests them.
The two main problems with the 100 Pilot Program is that...
1. It provides the wrong incentive for people to contribute to the open
source movement. I've already talked to many friends who say that they
will apply to the program just to receive a free I-opener. You can't
expect many contributions from someone who are in it just for a free
I-opener.
Instead you need to target the people who are actually interested in
developing things. One way to do this would be to devote resources to
webpages or discussion forums about specific areas of development. By
doing so, Netpliance would also be able to focus the development that
was going on. Hosting these webservices would probably be cheaper then
giving away 100 I-openers, and the developers would do the work of
creating the sites/BBS's/whatever as they were needed.
A good example of a company devoting resources to an open-source
development is Netscape. Go to http://mozilla.org/ and see what they
have done to rewrite the Netscape source code. Netscape 6.0 is a product
of the Mozilla project; we will have to see for ourselves if it is a
good thing or not. (B.T.W. Netscape 6.0 is much smaller then it's past
versions. I smell an embeddable web browser!)
2. By limiting the number to 100 people and then making it difficult for
others to work with their I-openers, you are severly hindering an open
development process. There are already close to 100 websites on the
internet about modifying the I-opener and the number of people working
with these units is much greater.
I'm sure that you've already recieved over 100 emails from people asking
to recieve an I-opener to turn it into something or other. Once these
are given out this will prevent developers with potentially good ideas
from being able to work on thier ideas.
As I have already said, a better solution would be to host discussion
forums and support the development from the inside. This would better
for Netpliance economically, allow Netpliance to dynamically control
development, and probably give Netpliance a better relationship with
it's open source developers.
Thank You,
Ben
Reading the comments people have posted, a common theme is "Just add [foo] to it". I think this is the wrong approach -- if you want [foo], add it yourself; if the specs are open, someone should be able to figure it out. The most attractive feature of the i-opener is it's price -- start adding more hardware, and you are going to drive the price way up. IMHO, a reasonable price for a hackable i-opener, as-is (or as-was, before March 20th) is around $300-$350. Any significant changes to the design will involve significant re-tooling charges at the factory.
Now, if these folks are smart, they'll make an i-opener 2, which would have 10baseT ethernet, more expansion options, and a slightly bigger case , maybe with an (empty) 2.5 or 3.5 drive bay. They don't really have to add any new components -- just give us the headers to attach our own, we'll do the rest. They can then take the best ideas and sell them as after-market add-ons, to get some additional revinue out of the beasties. They can also make money by selling an i-opener linux distro, optimized to work on their hardware.
An expandable i-opener, with ethernet & documented expansion headers, could go for as much as $500, and maybe a little more. Price is a serious issue with this -- overprice it and it will fail; find a good price point and it will become a standard, filling the gap between a full-blown PC and a palmtop. There is definatly a market to be tapped here, guys -- don't blow your chances to dominate a new, untapped market by being stupid and/or geedy.
(And, btw, reexamine your distribution model -- using only Circuit City is going to hurt you in the long run. Either use the Dell/Gateway model and only sell direct to the consumer, or put the things everywhere.
"The axiom 'An honest man has nothing to fear from the police'
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
The only beef I have with them is what they've done with their TOS. Changing the contract _after_ the units have been sold is a bad mistake, IMHO. If they needed to change their agreements, then it should be done professionally, honoring their previous sales. It's bad business to do otherwise.
I hope NetPliance has everything together now. (sob story ahead-> I bought an IOpener on March 12, was billed for $99 plus shipping on March 12, and never plugged it in.
They added a $19.11 charge to my credit card 2 weeks later, and I went through a truly awful phone call with them whereupon they asserted they could charge me for things based on their company policy.
(they changed their TOS well after I bought the machine).
Discover gave me a temporary credit and are currently "investigating" the situation. I imagine it will go like this: "NetPliance, why did you charge our customer for something he did not order?", "Discover, it is our company policy to do so." "NetPliance, please hand over your merchant account."
So, for me, tell NetPliance the basics of how money works. Remind them, for their own good, that they need some sort of agreement from the customer before executing a transaction. Yea, remind them that they cannot charge me money just because someone at NetPliance assumed they could. etc.
I fear them.
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