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EFnet Hits Turbulence
Lots of submissions regarding a bumpy week for EFnet, mostly short on fact and long on rumor. Several high-capacity servers have either dropped off entirely or limited their connections to local clients due to DOS attacks. We got one good link about the situation; anyone else have more info? Is this a real problem or just normal roughness? I'm not an IRC regular these days but I've never seen a stable IRC network.
Can't be as bad as the splits on Dalnet
You're just begging to get marked down as a flamebait aren't you? I guess #PHP, #PERL, and #CGI are just 'warez' and 'child porn' rooms with no use but to harm society. Before making such erroneous assumptions, please do some research.
On of the biggest problems with EFNet, has been that there is no 'ownership' of channels - or the fact that no ircops participate in such matters. This is has made it a very interesting for screept (yeah)-kiddies to attack, since they then can annoy the most people by attacking something (that in fact) isn't that useful. There's no surprise in the fact that the number of servers has dropped from 140+ (?) to the 35 servers connected at the moment. Large ISPs will never risk their serious business for something as 'non-profitable' as an IRC-server. Sorrowly, this is becoming more and more of the truth - but hopefully EFNet will survive for a long, long time.
.. p4ck37 j00 b417ch. yeah. auch. it hurts.
mats
One man's ceiling is another man's floor.
I've always used it to talk to other programmers. In such channels as #c, #c++, #perl, #java, etc. Perhaps you shouldn't join #teensex and #iwantkiddieporn to get your irc experience. Just a thought. We're not all evil people.
Gah, i was trying to reply to a thread :(
Note that this is just one aspect of recent EFnet suckage
--
Brian Fundakowski Feldman
According to sources (and from personal experiance) the @home irc server has been permanently removed from Efnet thanks to all the script kiddies with cable modem access launching attacks and the @home domain has been perm banned from most of the remaining servers. Thanks again, kidz.
"Klaatu, verada, necktie!" -Ash
I remember when blackened.org went offline because of DoS attacks. They had the ability to serve up to 7000 IRC clients. One of the main reasons for killing the server, IIRC, was because of an evening where a bunch of idiots threw tons of garbage down blackened's pipes, causing the entire state of (arizona?) to be deprived of internet access. Although I cannot find Matt's original letter, I did find the config of irc2.blackened.com:
oldcharred.blackened.com: AMD K6-2 @ 333mhz, 128M of ram, 18G-10k rpm scsi primary, 9G secondary. This server houses the origional irc2.blackened.com EFnet server, the largest EFnet server in the world before it de-linked. Still running with the origional IRCD, I, O, C/N lines and TCM.
It's a pity that, in blackened's case, volunteer workers such as mjr are forced to abandon what they love to do, because of immature kiddies flooding the network with useless garbage.
irc.enterthegame.com has chanserv bots that get assigned to every room that gets started and some channel operators actually own them.
Oh and to an earlier post it was a channel devoted to a on-line gameing guild where we could get together and co-ordinate attacks. Wow, something to do with IRC that doesn't involve warez, kiddie pr0n or programming. Now that is wierd.
Pithy, yet ultimately meaningless, phrase expressed with gusto!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
On a network such as efnet, which is generally fairly full of general chat, netsplits and the like are all part of the fun. It adds to the "conversation" and pranks, which make irc so interesting. Sure, for more serious channels it is a bit of a pain, but for channels where people are just stuffing about, like most of efnet and dalnet, there isn't a real problem.
Disclaimer: I'm fairly new to the efnet experience. I've been running Undernet servers[1] for the past two years and only recently linked a server to efnet[2].
I haven't yet found someone who has been able to figure out where these rumours have been coming from. We got a couple enquiries about "is efnet going to shut down" in our efnet mailbox, but that's nothing out of the ordinary (Imminent Death of Efnet Predicted - Film at 11). Haven't seen any mail claiming that anything really special is going on. A couple of servers changed their policy. As far as I understand, from my limited experience, there's nothing strange or extraordinary about that. IRC networks are dynamic in nature.
The amount of DoS-flooding that goes on directed at a typical server for a major IRC network is completely out of bounds. Scriptkiddies see themselves as Freedom Fighters and Mighty Warriors, but are slowly pushing IRC networks to the point where they either become unusable or virtual Police States. On some networks, ideas have already been coined to start using a mandatory user registration system. No admin likes the privacy implications of such a move, but it may turn out to be the only way to keep the idiots out.
Once in a while, we get lucky and one of these kids touches a site that a federal agency cares enough about to start a case and the world has to deal with one scriptkiddie less. Most of them never get caught, though.
HTH.Pi
[1] saltlake.ut.us.undernet.org and haarlem.nl.eu.undernet.org
[2] efnet.vuurwerk.nl
Wow. In my editorials I often cite IRC as an alternate distribution method for warez and porn, a wake-up call to legislators who believe the Internet is controllable by legislation. De-centralization puts it just beyond arm's reach and even if they could target every server being used, it would be a futile exercise as a copycat protocols spring up. That said, I've also sat in on some great chats between sufferers of Parkinsons disease living on different continents. Sometimes they chat about their disease, sometimes about fishing, and occasionally argue passionately about Ford vs. Chevy. Alcoholics can find support in channels devoted to that purpose. People living in central and western Canada can't see TV coverage of election results until their polls close. Hop on to a channel for maritimers and get real-time results -- a must for us political junkies, debating the results as they come in, of course There's always a user in one of the technical channels willing to help a clueless computer user figure out why their browser won't display Quicktime content. Amateur HTML users can get help with that damned tag that won't work, in real time. Film reviews are unfiltered as people discuss their entertainment choices. The IRC is a microcosm of the world -- though with better communication. I've chatted with people living in repressed countries who dare to talk openly in channel about conditions where they live. When IRC becomes easier to use, and more stable, it will be almost as important as email. Studying journalism in school, I've spent hours chatting with classmates in the wee hours as we worked on the school paper on deadline, DCC'ing draft pages back and forth. That's a powerful tool. IRC has its downside, but to pooh-pooh it as exclusively the domain of the seediest 'netizens is knee-jerk reactionism. Kiddie porn is illegal, and there are legal recourses which exist today to punish those trading in it, no matter how they do so. It's not reason enough to advocate the shutdown of the world's electronic meeting place.
> , and all of the other IRC networks,
Getting a bit general aren't we?
Have you ever visited irc.openprojects.net for example?
- Lots of useful discussion regarding development etc.
- Frequent conferences held discussing the direction of open source projects
- Much much more. There's even a #slashdot channel. The one single file I have seen on this irc network for offer over dcc is a linux kernel patch in #kernelnewbies. That's hardly what I would call illegal or immoral.
I would also add that there are similar channels on #efnet. Just because there are a lot of bad goings on is not a reason to punish the legitimate users by getting rid of the networks.
-- MartinG To mail me: echo kewyjlcxyzvjfxbqwh | tr bcefhjklqvwxyz
http://www.efnet.org/news.html
wolf31o2 Developer, Gentoo Linux Games Team
I certainly hope they work through all their problems. As it was, many of the EFnet servers I've tried to connect to wouldn't let me ("Your domain not allowed...too much abuse."). Having a home.com domain name, I'm probably the first to go if they're restricting access even more.
EFnet has been a great resource for me for computer help, etc....though I've been told once or twice to RTFM. But the people there have been generally more helpful than irritating, so I'm upset to see them getting DoS attacks, etc.
I hope for everyone's sake that they can push through the "turbulence" and get things back in good order.
"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it."
Time is fun when you're having flies.
-Kermit the Frog
Dalnet is where I go for silly chat, that doesn't matter, and I think the services they offer (registered nicks, channels, etc) are nice.
Efnet is good for various "scenes." Efnet is where the mp3 groups hang out, and I also hang out in the semi-official Ars Technical channel, along with #litestep. IMHO. I find much more intelligent conversation on Efnet that I do on Dalnet.
The article that's linked to does point out the obvious, and Efnet is horrible about script kiddies. The number of DoS attacks are numerous, and I've been packetted for takeover purposes. On the other hand, Dalnet is rampant with various trojans/virii such as Life Stages, script.ini, Judgement Day, etc. Though Dalnet has done a pretty good job of implementing server side protection against these.
In the end, I'll still hang out on both networks because different IRC networks server different purposes.
I've learned more about how to do my job from other like minded people on IRC than from any of my university courses.
:)
;)"
Sad but true...
There are thousands of people on IRC who know the answers to any question you can think of, from HTML to freebsd help..
And of course lots of people to make friends with!
Although as a friend of mine once said, "IRC is great as it gives you the opportunity to meet new people from different cultures from all over the world, and somehow find a way to piss them off
madmax@efnet
irc.ins.net.uk admin
The only disadvantage is that you can't have as many clients -- but save for help channels, how the heck are you supposed to have meaning conversations in an IRC channel with over 50 or 100 people in it???? I think smaller networks will make IRC a bit more 'worthwhile' in terms of it's original concept.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
(...) a wake-up call to legislators who believe the Internet is controllable by legislation. De-centralization puts it beyond arm's reach and even if they could target every server being used, it would be a futile excercise as copycat protocols spring up.
The same could be said for napster. Napster is not much unlike an irc-server. I'm still waiting for the MPAA or RIAA to start the lawsuits on IRC networks for "distributing intellectual property". Just as with napster, the exchange of files on IRC is a peer-to-peer issue: The IRC server only transmits the transfer-requests.
Cheers,Pi
I personally think that newbies find IRC to difficult to understand, and prefer to use simple programs like ICQ or AIM. I remember many years back learning how to IRC with IRCii (unix-based irc client), and it took me a good 20 minutes before I figured out how to /join, /msg, and all that fun stuff. Of course there's Mirc which is probably the client most people use, since it's easier to manage many channels at a time, and since it's for Windows. Anyways, basically I think that people who will get sick and tired of EFnet because of all the splits and such are just going to stop using IRC protocol, and start using ICQ, MSN, AIM, etc...
Oh ya, and just a note. I hate people who think IRC is Mirc. That's like saying the Netscape or Internet Explorer is the Internet. Ugh.
No, the IRC server DOESNT transmit the transer-requests. IRC networks are not like napster, but you could make the arguement that mIRC and other clients are. When sending a file over IRC via DCC there is NO involvement with the IRC server at all. (hence why its called Direct Client Connection)
In my past five years of experience on IRC, I've seen many networks begin, grow and die. I've seen the split of the Australian body of servers from Undernet to form their own IRC network (OzOrg), the beginnings of now the largest Australian IRC network AUSTnet, and of course, the IRCnet/EFnet split. Why does everybody think that EFnet is dying? As I write this, over 44,000 unique clients are connected to EFnet distributed over 35 servers. That's roughly 1.2k clients per server - not exactly what I'd call dying. EFnet is also largely dominated by warez and pornography due to the pure size of the network. Many of the servers are constantly subjected to Denial of Service attacks such as smurf attacks, involving a large flood of traffic, costing ISPs a considerable amount of money and downtime. Typical efnet servers need to sustain traffic rates of around 50 kilobytes per second on average, just in IRC traffic, excluding the DoS. Many ISPs decide to delink their IRC server. It's a large target to the "leet haxor" community saying "hey there! attack me!" There are no registered channels or nicknames, meaning that if you run a channel there, it's your responsibility. It's a very old network, and lacks many of the nice services that most newer IRC users would expect (eg. channel/nick registration, help services etc) from networks such as DALnet and AUSTnet. Different networks suit different people, and as long as the EFnet community remains around, the network will still exist in some shape or form. -zardoz
(what idiot will download "girl-sucks-horse.jpg.VBS"???)
:)
Same idiots that automatically download all files and use an OS where the extension is hidden by default?
I feel like a fairly large percentage of the cracking being done in the world ammounts to being nothing more than an irc turf war. Kind of cool, in a Gibson kinda way.
Trees can't go dancing
So do them a big favor
Pretend dancing stinks!
I'm afraid you're wrong. The IRC does transmit the transfer-request. If you send someone a file over DCC, what happens is that your clients sends a CTCP DCC message to that client containing your IP-address and a port-number. The client on the other side connects to this port-number and receives the file.
Cheers,Pi
I can't think why any decent minded person would support the use of a protocol which is used almost solely for illegal, and quite frankly disgusting, purposes.
IRC is an open protocol for distributed "real time" text conferencing and file sharing. This potent idea continually gets reinvented. AOL's Instant Messager and Jabber are the latest incarnations of real time conferencing.
As the original killer Internet application, email has florished as a means of conferencing and file sharing. It propagated to all platforms that supported TCP/IP networking. The problem with email is that it is asynchronous. By default, it provides no notice that a message has arrived at its destination, much less was seen by the intended recipient. IRC is a way to extend the conferencing capabilities of email. You know instantly whether your message was received. For small groups, this method works well.
If AOL's IM improves (for some values of "improves") on real time conferencing Napster, Gnutella and Freenet extend file sharing to be pervasive and searchable. And yes, unlicensed files are traded with wild abandon on those networks too. Hustler magazine is printed on paper, just like currence, the Bible and Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash. I wouldn't go back to using stone tables because the medium can be abused.
Of course, it is easy to pick on the senile old aunt of conferencing technologies. There is no doubt that script kiddies and p0rn abound in seedy, misspelled chat rooms. It is a shame to condemn this important technology simple because of the activities of a few reprobates. If one could judge the whole by its parts, we'd have been Usenet years ago.
You may not choose to use IRC because of the few bad apples, but you'd do well not to quickly condemn all IRCers. There is a lot useful information tucked away in those intangible rooms.
Cheers
Send flames to someone else.
WTF? Actually i run my own business, and my job requires knowledge of unix, HTML, cisco, etc etc etc.
And where to find pictures of small girls eh?
Just because you use IRC to find pics like that doesnt mean everybody does.
And to find people with like-minded illegal "hobbies" with which to engage in DCC sessions.
And to put on /ignore sad bastards with nothing better to do but try and get up peoples noses due to a lack of interpersonal skills and a real life?
Dude, I've found two decent jobs thanks to IRC (and I wouldn't rule out taking a third).
It 'aint all warez and kiddiez. Check out #php or #c sometime.
Since the end of August, EFnet has become a real pain to use. Some of the better servers, like core.com and primenet.com, have simply gone away, and others are just about impossible to get to. The ones you can get on go up and down all the time, there are endless netsplits, etc. The only semi-stable servers either belong to .edu's or are part of some network like mindspring or home.com and don't let anyone on who isn't a part of their network (understandable, but frustrating).
The article is correct in one thing: it's because of the packet kiddies. With hundreds of kids behind cable modems blasting away at servers all day long, it's no wonder that network admins take down IRC servers -- the turnover rate on EFnet servers has been amazingly high recently.
The one thing to take comfort in: despite its problems, EFnet is still "the" IRC network to most people, so if you're on another IRC network, it's taking the brunt of the assault...
Well, just imagine how the Internet as a whole would work if networks and hosts were connected ONLY by explicit static routes.
That's right, it wouldn't.
Marko Karppinen
You are truly an idiot.I use two IRC channels the #Carrara and #3d_errorcode50,which both service people using 3d apps.There are many channels that support OSes,applications,and are generally fun to hang out in.Maybe you should stop warezing child porn you sick bastard.
Great minds think alike,but,fools seldom differ.
i know that ever since i've been on efnet (early 97 probably) that efnet has never implemented a channel or nickname services in the idea that they should "not be owned". But i believe that this is the downfall of the Eris Free Network. Implementing a channel service would probably cut down on a lot of DoS attacks, for the fact that script kiddies aren't going to try and takeover a channel if it's pointless, even if they DoS the services, as soon as they come back online, the channel can be easily taken back again. I think that whoever (and i know there are many) makes the decisions about EFnet should really consider the thought of installing some services there, it would cut down on IRCop's headaches of having to face the same annoying people complaining that they're channel was taken-over, etc. At least this way, users can fix the problems themselves. EFnet, i've found, has always been a "broken" network, splitting even more then DalNet, it's never stable, and there are never constant server connections. I use EFnet for one channel only, and that is where a bunch of people from my hometown hang out and chat (#goodtimes), as for DalNet, i use it only for our group's channel (#LinuxGroup). But lately, i've been spending a lot of time on openprojects, great server, i think EFnet can learn from some of these other networks that are around.
tourettes
Once AOL came onto the scene EFnet went downhill, only to be followed by wonderful TS, which then really turned EFnet to shit. If it were not for TS I'd be willing to wager 99.99% of DoS attacks wouldn't happen or would be signifigantly shorter. It's a lot easier to split ops than waste your time packeting ip's. Combine all of this with the IRCops which are all mostly fools (I say this because 1/2 of them are IRCops beacuse they gave an admin head and have a hard time even working mIRC), and that might be why EFnet is so screwed up. There are a few IRCops op there who know what they are doing, but they stay behind the scenes, which I can't blame them for, after all they can't control all the loud mouth powerhungry IRCops. It all comes down to it's just irc, and if it's that big a deal to you if EFnet did go down, you really need a life.
No it isnt.
D == DEBUGMODE
2.8.21+RF+CSr30. irc.Prison.NET ACeEHiKMpRtX CS3abBDEfIjKlLmMnNoPrsStTu TS3ow
Its the ACeEHiKMpRtX bit which contains what options were #definied. Do you see a D in that?
madmax@efnet irc.ins.net.uk admin
Oh,and BTW try asking for warez in either of these channels and see how long it takes to be kicked.
Great minds think alike,but,fools seldom differ.
Sorry, but I don't "warez child porn" as you so "eloquently" put it. As a parent and a long-standing net user I am merely concerned about the sheer volume of filth that pervades IRC, and any legitimate conversations (if there are any, which I can't seem to find) could just as easily be done using mailing lists.
It seems to me that you're the one with the problem, after all I didn't lash out at you and call you a "sick bastard" did I? Feeling any residual guilt are we?
"irc.ef.net will be permanently delinked because of DoS attacks"
irc.ef.net is just one EFnet server. It does not mean that all of EFnet is going down or is in serious trouble...
Servers come and servers go but EFnet has survived and will continue to Josh
welp, I know the irc admins have a job to do ... and they usually do too good of a job. The Power-tripping admins kill/kline usually without much regret and it was worse back in the day. Efnet has always had a problem... irc.virgina.edu delinked back in the day prolly cause it was desynced more than it was connected. irc.texas.net disappeared not too long ago. My main problem is that these admins have a bad attitude from the get go... they /kill people for no reason at all sometimes... and then they wonder why they get so much slack from these kids? Prolly cause they are sick of hearing "do this dont do that" from parents and go on irc to finally put the havok on lame opers with power trips... this is one case where I dont feel bad for the admins. I ran a server on newnet for awhile (irc.cybertrails.com) and found out that alot of their main servers were being attacked and mostly because their admins were being asses. my server (irc.cybertrails.com) wasn't once attacked by any syn/icmp attacked...
When I first got on IRC in 1993, the school I was accessing it from had a 64k connection FOR THE WHOLE SCHOOL. No one really had enough bandwidth to split a server at the time. Still, distributed attacks could take over a channel or boot a user.
IMHO IRC's biggest flaw is the fact that it's servers are networked and all channels rely on that network to function. If one server goes down, you can loose half or more of the channel's users. And servers go down a lot. I t would seem to me the only reason anyone would put up with the flakieness of IRC is because they are either part of the problem, or because they enjoy the thrill of brutal internet strife.
IRCs problems are what prompted me to make something 'different'. A chat program which did not allow channel operators, banning, kicking or any of the things which typically spur DOS attacks on the servers themselves. Each room is an independant server and nicknames need only be unique per room, not per network. (and no network at all to rely on). Servers are linked similar to the Web where it gives an address and port to connect to.
Best of all, it's graphical and it's free.
They are a threat to free speech and must be silenced! - Andrea Chen
Fish! LipHo
It has been down for a little more than a month(?) and I wonder if a lot of the fallover from that server is overloading, and causing grief with others. That is, for the few that allow @home people to connect, and don't tell them to connect to their own irc server (which no longer exists).
Damn the man. Maybe we could convince the nice Havenco people to host an EFNet ircd!!
EF has always had its ups and downs. Currently we worry about DoS attacks from skript-kiddi3s. Years ago it used to clone bots (pre TS) from scripts like Vassagos Serpent which lead to massive nick collides. What it simply boils down to is people feelings, if/when they get slammed they attack back. It dosnt matter if they take over a channel or kill an entire server anymore (or worse). *Sigh* - I miss the days when people had to know how to program ircII scripts and use a shell to even get on IRC. In most of EFs history people have always claimed EF is dying, like when eff.org left and then a few years later blackened left. The cycle just keeps repeating.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Fine, there's filth on IRC. Well, there's plenty of filth available on the Net via other means - WWW, Usenet. Do we just shut down the whole Net?
I agree totally with what some of the other posters to this thread have said: there really are rewarding places to be on IRC. The people in the programming channels on some of the networks are insanely knowledgable. Some of the chat channels have really great people to talk to (and meet, if you're in the same meatspace area). Many organisations use IRC to plan, meet, play, whatever. Besides, mailing lists just aren't the same as real-time chat, and chat is more suitable for some discussions.
As for the undesirable stuff (warez, child porn), well, it's there, that's life. In my experience, though, it doesn't tend to just fall in your lap, so presumably (not needing warez, and not being the slightest bit interested in child porn), you need to go looking for it.
Finally, since you are a parent, may I point you to the standard disclaimer many servers on many networks carry (including the server I'm an IRCop on): IRC is an unmoderated medium. Anyone who leaves their children (thinking sub-teens in particular) on IRC without keeping an eye on them is asking for trouble, IMHO.
Do you know how much traffic it would be to watch all private and channel conversations? On top of that, the IRC protocol does not send private or channel conversations to servers which do not have users or are not in the paths of users that are recieving the messages.
There were recently accusations of the same thing on DALnet -- nobody has the time or the energy to watch and sift through a million conversations about your Diablo II characters or your netsex with "Jenny_18."
IRC servers are sometimes moderately stable. Im an Oper over at irc.exedor.net and we're usually stable. But how can you expect efnet to be stable. Efnet is just a bunch of servers linked together w/ no domain name.. I wouldn't expect it to stay stable much.
"He Who Laughs Last, Is Just A Hand In The Bush" - Ozzy Osbourne
Residual guilt?Of course,I went to Catholic school.You didn't look vey hard apparently.I too have had sticky NT problems solved in about ten minutes by going to the appropriate channel.Personally, I have met some decent friends in IRC.The Poser4 channel I hang out in won't even tolerate profanity.Galaxynet allows people to register and admin their own channels ,so they can be as clean as they want to be.I agree that servers allowing channels like #warez isn't a good thing,but,how can you condemn the majority of channels like #winnthelp or #linux?I'm really curious to what you may have recieved via DCC,usually I recieve someone's latest 3d render or a custom figure they wish to share(which is totally legal).If it wasn't for IRC,I wouldn't know as much as I do about my two 3d apps I use.Mailing lists don't work for realtime classes like IRC can.Have a nice day.
Great minds think alike,but,fools seldom differ.
You sir, are an ass
I talked to an operator for one of the @home irc servers on gimpnet (yet another irc network), and he explained that since the server was hosted by excite, it was in fact excite being DoS'd, which became a Very Bad Thing[TM]. the @home servers shall not return, and i've managed to find a nice german server that lets US connections on, and I've managed to sit on it without disconnecting for about 3 days now..... btw - plur and core and a few others aren't gone so much as they are now PRIVATE. - Guyver3
I actually had enough of EFnet during the last round of splits (around the time of the Yahoo! DoS), and I moved to a smaller network which I had been on for a while. I do feel for the admins, as I ran a server for a while linked to BYXnet (www.byxnet.net) which is about 7 servers big. Even with that small amount of servers, links die, drop, and just generally do weird things for no reason. Toss in the script kiddies on top, and you've got a mess that doesn't always have a clear solution that is causing the problem. For me, EFnet is to troubled to even bother trying to do much more than pop on to occasionally see what is new in the MP3 scene. EFnet will probably never die due to the amount of traffic there just in MP3s and warez... else, a WarezNet may develop just for those DCC-only channels... Just my opinoin, I could be wrong...
"This amp is special, see all the knobs go up to 11, that means it is one louder than other amps"
-Bjørn
Odd, I thought BSD was all about porting to various platforms. How can your channel have 'NOTHING todo with port...'?
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I've been wasting time on Irc since 95 (various networks) and the thing I came to love about Efnet was the hands-off policy the ircops tend to take. Having experienced nosey, intrusive, childish, and vindictive oppers on other networks (*cough* undernet *cough*), it was a welcome change to experience the breathing room offered by efnet. Yes it was lawless and yes there tended to be a lot of takeovers particularly before server timestamping when you could split in to gain ops so easily but that was all part of learning to fend for yourself... Instead of having to go cry to an ircop when you lost ops on one of your channels, you could fix the problem yourself.
The day Efnet implements channel service will be the last day I log onto Efnet.
- Toby
I'm at a *.edu site, and yesterday I had to try 27 SERVERS on EFnet before I could find one that would let me connect. That's ridiculous. And no, that is no exaggeration. Guess what the majority of the non-allowing servers told me? "You are not authorized to use this server." If a server isn't prepared to accept clients, it shouldn't be linked to the network. PERIOD. And by "clients," I mean global clients, not just clients within the server's own ISP.
FWIH, most of the servers that restrict their usage as such do so for one of two reasons: 1) DoS attacks or other related abuse, or 2) bots. I don't mean to sound like a troll here, but when you link to an IRC network, those are risks you take. And you don't solve them by effectively banning *@*. If a server on any other network did that, just imagine how fast they'd be delinked. Yet EFnet puts up with it.
=================================
I pledge allegiance to the flag...
of the Corporate States of America...
What can I say, I met my love on IRC, in just a small channel, nothing to do with warez, porn, mp3s, or anything else like that, just a channel for people with the same interests. My best friend I also met on IRC. You may all say this is nerdy, but we're shy, and what does it matter anyway how we met, as long as we love eachother?
What I'm trying to say is that EFNet may have a lot of lameness, but it's also got a lot of goodness, and will always be a special place for me, even if I do get annoyed with it at times like this.
It seems most of these servers are impossible to connect. Anyone know of a good Web site that updates the list of all the good servers to use? Thanks. :)
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
That's what the almighty grep is for, my friend.
bah.
I think the DoS'ing crap would reduce tremendously if they took out the server name in WHOIS replies. EFnet does go through tough times, but I just think of this as a way to improve and secure EFnet better for the worst.
In the beginning, there was IRC. IRC was good, people got along, and chatting was what people did.
Then there were some differences of opinion between administrators. It's OK, these things happen. Feelings got hurt, EFnet spawns a child network. Increasingly, this happens more and more, but typically the arguments revolve around the introduction of features to give the user a better chatting environment.
There are always two sides to the argument. There are those that want things like channel ownership, more IRC operator participation in the affairs of mortals and harsher, coordinated controls against abusers of the service. Then there are those that don't want anything to change. They view IRC operators as the keepers of the links, and that those keepers should never meddle in the affairs of the users. Let them sort (battle) out their own problems. EFnet splits. The liberal operators and servers (the ones wanting the change) spawn off a new IRC network, and the conservative/reactionary operators and servers stay behind.
Think of it as evaporative cooling. As EFnet experiences its civil wars, the proportion of "to hell with the users" attitudes rises.
Eventually, this attitude starts biting the opers and admins on the ass. EFnet turns into a war zone, with DoS attacks starting to show up. A few users think they're funny and DoS the opers too.
The ugly dragon rears its head.
Now the attitude becomes "fuck everyone but my fellow opers". IRC wars move from the IRC playfield to the Internet with DDoS attacks taking down servers for the purposes of channel warfare and retaliation against opers and admins. Sometimes the ill feelings are warranted, but mostly the packet kiddies are just trying to make a nuisance of themselves. Networks suffer, ISP customers suffer, ISP's de-link their IRC servers. A free service (IRC) should not--must not--impact the ISP's ability to reliably serve its customers.
Now at this point, EFnet starts getting a shortage of big servers. Naturally there are dozens of ill-experienced, IRC savvy packet kiddies that have "grown up" a bit and want to try their hand at running servers. A few are cautiously linked in, oper abuse (already rampant on EFnet) begins to rise even faster. The line between oper and kiddie twists around a bit, more servers run by "former" (or current) packet kiddies, Internet wars abound, servers are split, packet kiddies continue to attack. Legitimate, well-staffed servers jump ship.
EFnet, in short, goes to hell.
I've always said EFnet is the ghetto of IRC networks. I would wager the vast majority of people that use EFnet to chat nowadays do so only because their friends are there, or they don't know that there are alternatives. If there was a way to reliably migrate a person's group of friends instantaneously to another more mature network, most would do it. I would.
To some extent, EFNet has become a victim of it's own design. I understand the argument about channel ownership, and opers not wanting to get involved in channel matters, etc. That's fine if you want to run things that way, but be prepared to accept the consequences. There are people out there that really enjoy their time in their favorite IRC channel, and get mad as hell when it's taken over and little can be done to get it back. Don't dare ask an oper to help, they're not there for that. So, people are left with very few options when they want to get something back that they feel belongs to them. It's kind of like having something stolen from you, knowing exactly who did it, and being able to do little in order to get your property back. Hey, if you can split a server, maybe you can ride the split in and get ops again!
Some attacks take place in order to get a server to split so that people can get their beloved channel back. But, probably the biggest reason servers are attacked is because of vanity. Yes, nobody wants to admit it, but having an O:Line on EFNet is a status symbol. What else is it, it's not like the opers HELP people. Don't give me any bullshit about needing those opers to help run the servers. I happen to know EXACTLY what is involved in maintaining a large IRC server, and it doesn't take 20 opers per server to do it. So, with a large number of useless opers sitting in their secret little elitist channels doing nothing to help, it's no wonder people take shots at them. The only time you actually hear from an oper is when they're throwing their weight around, or vanity killing people, or k:lining your bot that is so crucial to protecting your channel. So, not only do opers refuse to help, but they go out of their way to hunt your bots and the things you put in place to secure the channel that means so much to you. Is anybody surprised that IRC servers are DoS'd?
I don't know how to solve this. There are networks (like DALnet) that make every effort to help users, and to make IRC as friendly a place as possible. Still, servers there are attacked too, though probably not as frequently as EFNet. As long as one person is able to launch a DoS attack large enough to impact an IRC server, nobody will be safe. There are also people out there that derive some sort of pleasure from removing an IRC server from a large network. Perhaps they do it for bragging rights, so they can claim that they "owned" a server, causing them to leave a network. EFNet's problems could very easily be attributed to one person (or lame little group) with the desire to destroy the entire network.
Earlier in the week @home's (cable modem provider) main server went down(irc.home.com). A majority of the @home users use that server, so when it suddenly disappeared, it caused a mass immigration to other efnet servers.
Many servers couldn't handle the added above their normal traffic and started dying under the load. As a result, a bunch of efnet servers have banned @home clients for the time being.
As somoene who has worked extensively on IRC server to server protocols, I can confirm what you're saying: ircd scales rather badly. It only has gone up to the current levels thanks to the massive increases in bandwith and server memory. If IRC wants to keep the model of a single network with a unique channel namespace, and a completely decentralized network of servers, then alternate routes and cyclic links become a necessity. EFnet has been going mostly in the opposite direction: a few strong central hubs, and lots of leaves. That works better than the random-spanning-tree that IRC started with.
At around 12:30EST last night, irc.east.gblx.net sent out a server message saying that the major hub servers (glbx) were going to be squitted within 1/2 hour, and to refer to http://www.efnet.org for more information.. no information was avail on that site.. within 15 minutes of that server-message almost every server issued another server-wide message saying that EFNet was not going down, and that it was just some kids playing a trick who "we should tell to f*** off" .. I'm just curious as to who sent that original server-message, and how they got access to send it...
nd@efnet
What I can't figure out is why the kiddies continue to bite the hand that feeds them. I mean, IRC is where they can freely distribute porn, warez, root kits, etc ,etc, why do they attack and DoS their own servers?? The end result is that stricter policies are put in place, and some servers just shut down all together. If this doesn't show the maturity level of the kids we are dealing with, I don't know what else will.
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"Every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief."
However...
There are other IRC networks. Dalnet, Undernet, and Yiffnet to name a few. I've found that Yiffnet is the most stable in terms of server splits, and the opers are actually friendly for a change. /join #furry and hang on to your keyboard.
Since Yiffnet is a semi-roleplaying network, there are, IIRC, two bots used to store descriptions of your character. If you ever sign on just for the hell of it, for the love of God go read the website first![1]
If, after reading the site, you decide to logon, try not to make your nick look like you're an EFnet refugee. The people there get on your case about it, and there's no real reason to have all the extra stuff[2] anyway. After logging on, read the MOTD for the server you're on, then if you feel up to it,
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[1] What? You thought those links were to show off my leet HTML skillz?
[2] You know, stuff like _^*=+ tacked on the end and 31337 Sp311In6?
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Star Trek vs Star Wars. Take a look. You may like it.
Hey - I would download that in a heartbeat. Nothing like marvelling at exactly how easy it is to activate the virus that goes by Win9x.
Maybe i'd even open a port for the trojan it contains, just for the fun of it?
Stop the brainwash
.. I just submited this to efnet.org's forum a few minutes ago.. http://www.efnet.org/forum/read.php?f=1&i=53&t=53
IRC allows free Telex conferences from any Internet console. This makes it the most important service after email and WWW. Now that the RSA patent has expired, I'm looking forward to seeing a mIRC script to permit encrypted channels. This would allow secure business usage, and increase the utility of IRC as a serious business application. debauched on Efnet IRC Michael A. Mathis mmathis@xnet.com
Michael A. Mathis mmathis@xnet.com
I am upset with the majority of comments posted here. According to many EFnet is nothing but a place with warez, no ChanServ, constant DoS attacks, and an overall "l4m3n3$$". EFnet is not this at all. Sure it has its share of warez/mp3/porn channels, but every net has an underground side to it. DoS attacks happen every where, but mostly on servers open to public. This is what everyone is crying about. If all servers go private, how will the general IRC population get on? The answer lies in geographic distribution. Why do EFnet Canadian servers only allow *.ca ? Why can't states of the US be divided up and assigned to a server. This way it cuts down on the DoS attacks.
/msg and we can talk any time :)
Another thing that many don't realize is the freedom on EFnet. If I want to create a channel with no one present, I can. I get no message from ChanServ telling me bob1234 registered my channel at the server's conception. IRCOPs should be hands off. If theres a disbute or a takeover in a channel, let them work it out. It's these basic freedoms which make EFnet such a great idea. I do concede that EFnet is not at its pinnacle right now. It has experienced massive DoS attacks, loss of servers, corrupt IRCops, and devistating takeovers. The IRCops are not to blame. They just went with the flow from a lack of rules. Sure, here's an i:line for this nice shell. Sure, I'll k-line that client even though its not a bot or clone. Sure, I'll abuse my power for anything that might better myself. If the administration of EFnet cannot keep itself clean, what hope is there for a new EFnet without DoS attacks.
It is a sad time for EFnet. We have come so far. I will stay on it until the end.
mycroft@EFnet
gimme a
To those that say, "People have always been saying EFnet is dying, but it's still here, and it will be around for a long time to go!" I agree, only insofar as EFnet will not go away.
But isn't an IRC network effectively dead when it ceases to be a reliable means for people to get online and chat? When was the last time you could get onto your EFnet channel of choice and have a conversation with the regulars? I bet if you did the math, EFnet would spend over 50% of its time with at least one major server split or with one or more heavily hit links.
When I sit down and am totally unable to have a conversation with my friends for any more than a few minutes at a time, I consider it time to move on. The only way people are going to be happy again is if they migrate to a more stable network, and nobody is going to do that until EFnet finally kicks the bucket and its existing (stable) servers either join up with a real IRC network or shut down for good.
Let EFnet die. It's functionally dead already.
Take a look at SILC, Secure Internet Live Conferencing. It's designed with better network structure, isn't a braindead protocol, and as the name says it's designed with security in mind. And to me the best thing about it is that it's new and not finished yet. I can suggest new features to it, I can fix broken things in it, I can try to make it the best chat protocol there is.
SILC is the most serious IRC replacement I've seen so far: there's working server and client code, there's documentation, even comments in the code and the specs are in RFC drafts.
The biggest reason for DOS attacks against IRC servers is (I'm pretty sure :) creating net splits and taking over channels with them. If we just design the protocol so that it is impossible to take over others' channels the network will be DOS safe (and it will be one happy chatting network ;)
Thats not true.. Ever tried sending a DCC to someone not on IRC? :) you send the request over the IRC network, then the connection is finished, client to client, without the irc server. I'm not an expert on how napster does it, but I'm guessing its similar.
-- "I feel a strong disturbance in the for.."\*Segmentation Fault*\ (core dumped)
one thing has to be admitted about script kiddies, and that's the they are expressive.
"Stratigraphically the origin of agriculture and thermonuclear destruction will appear essentially simultaneous" -- Lee
Funny..I read mjr's letter from 1998 just a few days ago (I visit blackened.com every so often, and sometimes I reread the letter--it serves as a sad reminder of the lamers that are everywhere on IRC these days):
"Even the big ones fall."
The DoSing has had its ups and downs for years. It comes, and it goes.
It is like bad weather-- you just have to ride it out. Also like bad weather, people overreact, and run around claiming that the apocalypse is coming.
Does the state of Florida disband everytime there is a tornado warning? I sure hope not.
slight correction... an OS where some extensions are hidden perminantly. There are some extension explorer simple will never show you.
- hopefully they will try to get the crackers/script kiddies in trouble for doing this.
And just what "trouble" do you expect to them into? Jonny's parents take away his computer for a week? What they are doing is illegal. It's just difficult to track down and almost impossible to prosecute -- you cannot "throw the book" at a 13yo punk. Until some FBI agents bust down the door to some central Kansas house, charge into some teen's room, and shoot him (or her) in the head at close range with a shotgun, this sort of childish bullshit will never stop.Most animals act according to an anticipation of a reward or in fear of some punishment. As a child, I learned quickly what my boundries were -- e.g. exactly what I could do without being beaten. Most parents raise their children in a violence free environment that complete negates half of our behavioral instincts -- hell, parents would be arested for abuse now-a-days if they hit their kids. ("Spare the rod; spoil the child" is true.) Setting the kid in the corner for an hour isn't punishment; it just gives them time to think up more bad things to do. When there is no fear of punishment, rewards have no meaning and children never learn to participate in a civilized society.
Now that I think about it, society has just gone to hell. Did I miss the Rapture or something? A memo would have been nice...
In a channel which used to have around 30 people in it at any given time, there are 9 right now, and that's the most I've seen all week. We can't keep our bots around with all the netsplits and crashing servers, so quite frequently our channel is left op-less.
The subject of moving the channel off of EFnet has been brought up, yet that doesn't seem to be the right solution. With it being on EFnet for so long, we've seen a lot of people come and go, and it's nice when they pop back in. If we moved it, they'd never find us.
I'm not proposing any solutions, because quite frankly, I don't have any, but one would think that the people who run some of the big EFnet servers would be able to come up with something.
The lives of some pathetically IRC-addicted geeks depend on it!
Efnet is far from dying, more than likely your gonna need an I-line to get on for sometime. The word on the streets is tnt is packeting servers for the evil fact that they were sniffed for 3 years and didnt know, wow go figure mom. And its much easier to drop 4 servers than 40 bots is wat some smart people figured out as wanting there channels back "#shells" #im-owned-by-a-fed"
Here's a link to a text file that is updated three times a day and lists all the servers: http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/networks/efnet.txt. Unfortunately, all it does is list servers, so it's not full of information.
Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.
Id happen to agree with the above. Nobody has the god given right to connect to any irc server they want to.. im an ircop on irc.exedor.net. and if someone DoS'd me from a home.com address id ban thier sorry ass as well. and the rest of thier users can suffer under an akill. thats my call. "It'll teach you nothing, about the world today, take your belief, throw it away" - Nailbomb
"He Who Laughs Last, Is Just A Hand In The Bush" - Ozzy Osbourne
really? I never use explorer, well one more reason not to then I guess
You must be a newbie so I'll forgive you, but eff.org (before they moved to the west coast) used to run irc.eff.org many years ago.
get a clue.
I used EFnet before, but I find it rather unstable compared to other networks, especially given the lack of services.