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First-Person Account Of Today's Attacks
I was scheduled to testify today at the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office's "Patent Theatre" in Crystal City, Virginia, on the intellectual property aspects of the proposed Hague Convention on Jurisdiction. I had sweated for days over a prepared oral statement about the treaty's implications for student coders and journalists.
My friend Rob Carlson and I left Baltimore early (shortly after 7:00 a.m.) and deposited ourselves at an outlying Metro stop, intending to take the subway into Crystal City. We arrived without incident.
Upon disembarking at Crystal City, I gave the sounds of various sirens little heed -- even as the municipality's Battalion Chief (fire department) roared past, red and white lights flashing.
"There must be a fire nearby," Rob said, glancing upward as fluffy chunks of ash drifting down into the USPTO's courtyard like huge downy feathers.
The hearing room was uncharacteristically vacant. I sat down next to my former boss, Consumer Project on Technology director Jamie Love, and flipped open my laptop to read over my prepared oral testimony.
"Did you hear? A plane hit the World Trade Center in New York!" Jamie whispered excitedly, ensconced in a pile of laptop peripherals and scattered newspapers. I froze momentarily, floppy disk half inserted into my laptop. Looking up, I noticed most of the hearing's attendees appeared to be in shock. A few sat rigid in their seats, hands folded in their laps, staring ahead in numbed silence. Others milled about, busily discussing the foreign policy ramifications of the morning's events. No one seemed to be concentrating on the hearing.
Federal government officials present -- (I recognized members of the U.S. State Department, Copyright Office and PTO) reacted differently -- receiving the sporadic stream of dispatches and rumors from PTO staffers running in and out of the Theatre with detached contemplation. It appeared that the Feds had discarded their usual mantle of chatty, diplomatic ambiance, and had switched into Crisis Mode.
"If anyone really wants to testify now, they can. At this time, we are not evacuating the building," proclaimed a Patent Office functionary. No one took her up on her offer, and several folks murmured quietly about the inappropriateness of proceeding with the hearing given the context and magnitude of events.
More runners entered the Theater, bearing news of additional disasters -- some alleged, some actual. Rumors about the destruction of various Washington agencies and landmarks whipped throughout the conference room.
I closed my laptop, which had been teetering idle on my lap for several minutes. People started for the door, hesitating in case the unspoken consensus for scrapping the hearing was improbably reversed. Cell phones were whipped out of suit pockets and family members dialed to no effect.
"You can always submit written testimony." declared U.S. delegate to the Hague Conference and PTO attorney-advisor Jennifer Lucas as the long-planned hearing disintegrated.
I felt a mix of emotions: disappointed that I wouldn't have the chance to testify and lock horns with the MPAA and other industry lobbyists, and guilty for having such self-centered thoughts during this crisis.
Rob and I headed out toward the lobby. He decided that we should skip the elevator and go down a flight of stairs to the lobby.
The courtyard of the Patent Office facility (which had been nearly deserted when we arrived) was packed with a milling, chattering crowd. Security guards peered about pensively as if reassuring themselves that the building was indeed still standing. Soon after, a shout went up that the Patent Office was being evacuated.
The head of the U.S. Delegation to the Hague Conference (and State Department legal advisor) Jeff Kovar brushed past me with an associate in tow.
"We're walking to the State Department." Kovar grimly mentioned to no one in particular, and started the long hike back to his office.
Rob and I weaved our way through gridlocked traffic and headed toward the Crystal City Metro station. Several Federal Marshalls stood about -- one wearing a boxy bulletproof vest, another wearing a pink blouse with a lanyard ID. Military personnel huddled together on the sidewalk, segregated according to the hue of their uniforms. Fast moving, thin white clouds rushed overhead. I wasn't sure if they were really smoke pluming from the Pentagon.
We jumped into a Yellow Line train alongside a pair of blue-shirted Air Force officers. I watched as an orange ladybug crawled up the silver-stitched epaulet of the officer closest to me, and informed him of its presence. He stared at me for a silent moment before carefully removing the insect.
"That's the least of my problems," he said. "Thanks anyway."
Here is my contribution to the already crowed sites out there. Hopefully the University doesn't get too mad :)
http://w3.uwyo.edu/~bennetb/attackonamerica
If you have any articles, movies, or photos. Email them to me @ bennetb@uwyo.edu.NO.SPAM
Our thoughts and prayers are with you
September 11, 2001-The Day Innocence Died
Like most people, I wake up each morning thinking the day will be like any other day. I shower, listen to the radio, have breakfast, and walk the dog. I say "goodbye" or "see you later" to my dad, I set out on my day. I make a mental note of the things I wish to accomplish before the end of the day and tentative plans for the rest of the week. I never stop and think, "what if I don't make it home today?". "What if I never see my family again.
But today, for thousands of people, their worst nightmares were realized.
As I walked to work, I saw a crowd of people standing around a car, listening to the radio. I heard " a plane crashed into the World Trade Center". Like most, I thought, "what a horrible accident". I figured a plane had engine failure, got off course and crashed. By the time I reached my office, about five minutes later, I heard that another plane crashed into the second building. By then, we all knew, it was no accident.
I immediately turned on my radio and noticed that there was no one in my office area. I walked to the lounge and discovered my co-workers huddled around a television. It was then that I saw the awful crashes and explosions. I saw the airplane, deliberately fly into the second building of the World Trade Center. And then, the explosion. It was a sight I will never forget.
I went to the phone to contact friends and family members who work in the area. After a few hours, I reached my aunt, who actually watched from her job as the plane crashed into the building and saw the people falling and jumping out of the window. I then returned to the television to discover that another airplane had crashed into the Pentagon building in Washington DC. The shock on everyone's face was immeasurable. We all started to wonder
"who's next"? Where? When? Then, we heard that the Capitol had also been hit and one of the Twin towers collapsed. I wondered what it would be like to visit that area in the future and see just one building there. Of course, they would rebuild, but it would never be the same. And then, we heard. Another explosion caused the second Tower to collapse. The building wouldn't be lonely anymore. It had joined its twin. Gone.....Forever. And
then, the tears rolled down, not just for the people who died but for the institution itself. I love New York. I love its history and atmosphere. I was just at Brooklyn Bridge a few weeks ago taking pictures. That beautiful New York Skyline that symbolizes so much will never be the same. My home. My life. It all seems different. I keep thinking of all of the people. All of the bodies, lying in the debris. All of those people who started
their day not knowing they wouldn't return home. All of their loved ones waiting, hoping, praying for a telephone call telling them that everything is ok. Waiting for a phone call that will never come. Today I cry. Not because I lost a friend or family member in this tragedy. But because like so many. I lost a part of myself. I've read about dozens of horrible, tragic incidents in American and Global history. I've seen photographs and
depictions of wars, conflicts and crimes against humanity. But I don't think anything will ever remain in my mind as vividly as this tragedy. As I sit writing this, there is a cool breeze blowing through my window. But unlike your average summer day, it is filled with smoke.
As I walked home with dozens of people, some crying, some shaken, some covered in soot, I felt an overwhelming need to be home with my family. Even those I knew were safe at home and no where near the disaster area. I called my father, sister, aunt, grandmother and cousins, and told them I loved them. I embraced co-workers and offered sympathy for those who lost loved-ones. I attempted to donate blood, but they were so overcrowded they turned
people away. And today, for the first time in ages, of my own freewill, I went into church, and cried. I cried again for those who died. I cried for their loved ones and I cried for all of us who lost a part of ourselves. Our sense of security, our livelihoods, our innocence, forever gone.
N. Johnson
Brooklyn, NY
They'll certainly need all the help they can get. It's literally a warzone, not to mention the dangers of working in a mostly-collapsed building. There are most likely trapped survivors in the wreckage, yet it's still too dangerous to enter most areas.
On a positive note, it's great to see how many people are giving blood.... even here in North Dakota.
Keep it up! Our prayers are with you all.
but watching both buildings collapse on TV was crazy enough as is. I had been laying in bed trying to oversleep for my Poly Sci class, when my roomates mother called. My other roomate (I have 2) answered the phone, half-awake, and mumbled something about a terrorist attack in NY. I'm thinking that it's just one of my friends pulling a practicle joke, but I thought I'd turn on the TV to see. Every other station had a picture of the two WTC buildings on fire.
Now I'm thinking bombing, although it's kin dof strange that the bombs would go off near the top of the building. It was bad, but it didn't look like a significant number of people were going to be hurt/killed (significant > 300). Then of course, right before my eyes (and the reporter didn't even seem to notice, incidently), one of the towers just collapses, almost in slow motion. That's when it hit me - a lot of people just died.
Right before I went to my poly sci class, the other tower collapsed too. I had no idea what was going to happen next. Maybe a plane was heading for D.C. and going to hit the white house? Maybe that plane that crashed in Pennsylvania was heading for Chicago (where I'm from). I'm just glad this wasn't even better planned out. Think, if they (whoever is behing this) hijacked planes in Chicago, San Fransico, Los Angeles, etc, a whole lot more people would be dead today.
F-bacher
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
I'm off to give blood
Jason
He's totally creeping out the Great One, eh...
If I had woken up 1/2 hour earlier today I might have been at the Pentagon Bus Depot (other side of the building) when the plane crashed. That scares the hell out of me. I see that helipad every day when the bus is pulling up the the Metro stop at the Pentagon.
Another interesting thing for everyone. Apparently U.S. Solicitor General Theodore Olson's wife called him from her cell phone on the plane that crashed into the pentagon. Apparently the hijackers used knife-like weapons. Here is the link.
We here at school have begun collecting images and video to help out with the bandwidth problem the news sites are having... Here Also feel free to send anything in...
I looked out my apt window this morning and saw guys wearing army fatigues with Colt M4's directing traffic. Once I managed to get my dialup to connect (kept dropping for obvious reasons) I stayed connected long enough to find out that two planes had flown into the WTC. From there, everything seemed to be fake. I mean, shit these are the two symbols of America. Who the hell could knock them down? Several hours later I walked downtown with a friend to see it all for myself. The streets were empty, eminating the feeling of loss. Once we got close enough, there were cars all over that were smashed to varying degrees, covered in dust, papers blowing across the streets. It was a scene out of a movie as many have said. Too bad it isnt. I hope swift justice comes for those who are resposible for this act of disgusting terrorism.
"What can a thoughtful man hope for mankind on Earth, given the experience of the past million years? Nothing." -Bokonon
It was about 8:55 that someone came into the noc, and said 'My mom just called, someone crashed an airplane into the world trade center'. I got up, and went down the hall to our executive conference room, which has a great view of NYC. To my shock, there was huge clouds of smoke billowing around the upper third of the building, and I could see flickers of flame comming from the huge hole. Someone in the office had a pair of binoculars, and I could see even more details. There was a bit of debate over how this happened, and if this was accidental or not. I was on the view that there was no way this could be an accident.
After looking at this sight for a few minutes, I went back to the NOC, and was informing coworkers of what I saw. Someone came in, and said "Another airplane hit the other building!". I ran down the hallways again, and sure enough, there was the flames and the fires. I felt sick, as I was sure this was not accidental. And one of my first thoughts was 'Bin Laden.'.
I don't really remember the next few minutes that well, but I do remember standing in an office nearby when the first building went down. Puffs of smoke were comming up from the bottom, and we all thought another bomb had gone off. Remember, at this time we were hearing reports of bombings at the capital, the pentagon, the mall, and the whitehouse. We all stood dumbly as the bulding fell, and I don't think anyone spoke. And a little after that, the other one came down. I did not see that one, for which I am glad. The sight of the first one is going to haunt me as long as I live I fear.
God help us, God help the victims, and God help those poor bastards who did this. Our revenge will be terrible.
My little (24 y/o) brother is a federal employee from Boston. He works for the Department of Energy, and was down in DC for work this week.
:/
When I heard about the attack in DC I immediately freaked out. I tried calling his cell phone, only to find the cell switches flooded. I could only hope he was not near the Pentagon.
My mother finally did get in touch with him. He basically was told to evacuate the office, which was next to the Capital, and to go home. Unfortunately for him "home" was a hotel across from the Capital building.
He did call later with an update, he managed to take a train out of town and had to walk a long while to reach Georgetown U. He told mom that it was a completely surreal experience, with crowds running and walking aimlessly, while jet fighters were looming above.
I never was so scared for anyone's safety. Ironically, this AM my brother was in a seminar in public speaking and dealing with anxiety. I guess they picked the wrong day to run that class
My warmest wishes and prayers go out to those less fortunate.
I know it's just the INTP in me talking, but I have to wonder what kind of civil rights atrocities we're going to be looking at in the days and weeks to come.
If you thought the FBI wiretapping Little Nicky Scarfo on only a search warrant was horrifying, consider the bully stick that will be bandied about now. Encryption is bad. Terrorists using encryption got past all our intelligence. Outlaw encryption now! If we didn't have to go through all that judicial rigamarole to keep an eye on terrorists, we would have done better. We promise we won't wiretap anyone without a magistrate's approval who doesn't really, really, REALLY deserve it.
As shocking and horrifying as what happened today is, and as unbelievable that the intelligence community knew nothing about it (or did they?), I am scared shitless about what we have ahead of us.
The truth about Scientology, Xenu, and you: Operation Clambake
my girlfriend had a friend in one of the airplanes that went down. anyone who calls for forgiveness and not retaliation for this act should have to pick one of their friends to be killed and then see how they feel. fucking barbarians.
Do you think innocent people aren't going to die when we retaliate? Do you think innocent people aren't going to die when the terrorists respond to our retaliation?
If our retaliation were to consist of 30 bullets to the heads of all terrorist leaders, thats great - I'm all for it. But I'm very weary of the words I'm already hearing from the pentagon - threats against any nation that harbors terrorists. That doesn't mean we're targeting terrorists, specifically, you know.
The obvious mechanical response to violence is more violence... but violence doesn't solve violence - you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out.
After all that happened today, what I wanted to do was get my ass home and try to find out as much information as I could. No one I know lives around the areas that were hit, but it was a huge event that will be remembered for years. Then I got a call from my aunt. Her daughter's husband was camping in Somerset county. She said he was within about 2 miles of the actual crash site. I coudn't believe it! He said he was going to remain camping there though, knowing him I wasn't surprised. It was quite a strange feeling knowing he was so close. I know him pretty well because I did work for him for a bit last summer. He owns Netsville (www.netsville.com). Today is a very sad day....
I realize this is slightly off topic, but none the less.
If anyone remembers after the OKC bombing everyone thought it was Arabs (specificly muslums), and there were instances of violence agains Arabic Americans. We do not know yet who did this, and even if it does turn out to be Arabs, or Muslums, please make it a point to speak out against any type of retaliation agains Arabs and Muslums in the US. No more inocent people need to suffer for the actions of a few extremists. We all need to make sure that freedom in this country survies through this disaster. It almost scares me that things like this need to be writen, but humanity being what it is, I figure it can't hurt.
Thank you
Justin
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
I'm not in the mood for any jokes right now. Thx. I lost a friend today. I'm not sure rm /bin/laden really "captures" the moment.
Here in Manhattan I watched the two towers go down from the street outside my apartment. Unbelievable, what more can you say?
I ran downtown to be of some use, and made my way deep into the financial district shortly after the second building collapsed. Large groups of us volunteers gathered, waiting for instructions, but unless you were a doctor or CPR certified, there was not much you could do. A few of us volunteered to give blood, and we were put on a bus that led us through the carnage of the area surrounding the towers. Inches of ash and soot. Entire blocks covered in papers, most halfway burnt. Eventually, we were rerouted, and taken to Saint Vincent's medical center to donate, but turned away due to the incredible volume of people willing to donate.
I'm planning to donate tomorrow, and if you live in Manhattan, please do so as well.
In the meantime, despite all the horrendous acts of the past 12 hours--all the heartache, all the loss of life--please, let's try to keep a level head about things. If we go off bombing another country, there will most likely be civilian casualties there as well--what more evidence do we need to see that life is precious? I saw too many dying people carted in on stretchers at St. Vincent's today.
Even if they die in another country, they are still people, and bleed red like you and me.
I'm from australia. I got up at ten to seven this morning and logged on. I went to penny arcade for a dose of the funny and I found an image that said "We don't feel like talking about computer games right now. Our hearts go out to anyone involved in this God awful tragedy" with a link to CNN.com. I followed the link, expecting a joke, or a hoax page or something. I began reading down a bulleted list of the appalling things that had happened and immediately scanned the page for some sign that it was all made up. Some 'CNN.com@*****' or ANYTHING to tell me that this wasn't real news about the real world. It was off the human scale. It was something you simply couldn't imagine happening. I called my girlfriend into the room to have a look and she said 'bullshit' then began to read the story, our fear growing in unison as we learned of the terrible events. We went directly to a local news site to get some corroboration and there it was, large as life. We had been about to leave for a walk to the beach and back before breakfast. We bought the Sydney Morning Herald on our way down the hill and there was a picture of the World Trade Centre with its guts spraying into the street on the bow of a flowering, orange explosion. There were the faces caked with plaster and concrete dust and the fires. There were the words of desperate fear and shock. There was the disaster. We took the paper to the beach and sat on the steps above the sand for ten minutes holding each other and reading the stories. My eyes filled with tears not for the victims (whose suffering is too distant and unimaginable for me to understand) but for a human race that could do this to itself, that could produce to groups whose only desire was to do the worst possible things to each other. It is something monumentally sad to me, that faced with the beauty of life we could squander it on violence and destruction. Even the world trade centre towers themselves seemed timeless when I visited them two years ago. Now they are simply gone, forever. Unimaginable. A little while after me, my girlfriend's eyes began to water and I held her. Then we dried off, picked up the paper and walked home. This is a terrible thing, and americans should know that their horror and shock is ahared by many around the world.
The people who executed this attack are now as dead as the victims. That's one of the worst things about these suicide bombings, who do you blame, who do you retaliate against? Maybe they were the ones that planned the whole thing in the first place, maybe they weren't. As of this moment all we can do is try our best to help the victims who are still alive, and say a prayer for the departed. My condolences go out to those who have lost a loved one.
I'm in New Zealand, and am watching the unfolding events over the Internet. I feel sick in the stomach at what I've seen and the senselessness of it.
My greatest condolences to all those familys and friends who have lost loved ones, and my prayers and wishes of support for those who don't know yet. I don't have the words to tell you how much compassion I feel towards the people involved - those who have died, survivors, loved ones and emergency providers who have to pick up the pieces.
I believe that people the world over are equally as shocked and supportive as I am.
I can only hope that justice and cool heads will prevail in the events to come; that those responsible will receive their punishment; and that further innocent people are not hurt.
From Sahara, in the East Village, NYC.
I woke up to the sound of the first plane flying overhead. I said to myself "wow that sounds like it is pretty low" then I heard it crash and jumped out of bed.I watched the first building collapse from the roof. Took pictures of it. People were jumping out of the windows of the towers because they could not evacuate in time. My whole neighborhood was on the rooftops. When the buildings collapsed, the whole village screamed all at once. People were up there screaming and yelling and crying. I helped this old woman call her friends that live and work there who she could not reach. She was hysterical. My landlord's brother was in one of the towers. Most of the phone lines are down, including cell phones which have lost their towers. Subways, busses, bridges, tunnels, trains were all closed. Now some of it exiting Manhattan has been opened. Six NYU dorms were evacuated and all the people living in them were herded into a gym.There was an amazing migration of people north through the streets.The area looks like an apocalypse. Everything is grey and cloudy and there is 5 inches of debris on the ground. It looks like it is snowing. City hall looks like it is standing in a desert. Police were going up and down the streets yelling into loudspeakers. I'm so used to hearing sirens now, it is like birds chirping. They are concerned now of biological weapons so hopefully the wind won't shift and blow smoke my way.Third building just fell. They fear more because they are on fire and can't seem to get them out.All schools closed. All hospitals filled. They need more blood. Death toll has been climbing all day.
Just to let y'all know, I had a previous post along these lines and figured that it was relevant:9 948
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=21544&cid=227
When I woke up this morning, I heard sirens going off all over the place. I had no idea what was going on, but as soon as I got up my roommate was running into the room yelling about the Pentagon being bombed. We looked out our window and saw black smoke billowing out across the city, and decided to see what it was.
There were all manner of different people clustering to see what was going on - there were tourists from Russia, reporters, agents from every conceivable branch of the government en route to the Pentagon. We saw a number of generals standing in the shade outside of it, and there were military personnel all over the place. Most of the streets were blocked off, too. Pennsylvania Avenue was strangely devoid of traffic, and I know that at this point they aren't letting anything remotely near the White House.
I figured that I'd add that there have been a number of bomb threats going off around the city - most notably to me at the Marvin Center at the George Washington University, because that's where I tend to get food. They evacuated the Center and shut down the entire school for the day - you can see the University's warning message at http://www.gwu.edu/~virtual/message.html
Oh yes, and while I was walking to and from the Pentagon, my friends and I happened to see - or at least we believe we did - Marine 1, the President's personal chopper. Seeing as he wasn't in DC at the time, it was probably Cheney or some other officials checking out the damage. It was a damn sight to see - the chopper was accompanied by a fighter plane, and it is ENOURMOUS. The thing is easily bigger than you'd ever think it could be.
-- K
This might be important in a while - not right now... But
The SSSCA seeks to limit our copying and mirroring of copyrighted content. It would have been impossible to mirror news and events (pictures, view, text) from content owners such as ABCNEWS.COM (Disney) and MSNBC.COM (Microsoft) today if all hardware was locked down.
Seeing as these content owners (ABCNEWS.COM) were not able to keep the information flowing, shouldn't content controls be easily circumventable in times of crisis? Isn't the fact that all these news sites were down testiment to the fact that the SSSCA is a bad idea? Where would we be without individuals mirroring and copying information when the major news portals were down?
I obtained a lot of my info from mirrors today - not the major sites. Thank goodness for the individuals who mirrored information from the major news sites. I hope that in a few years time they will be able to do the same should another trajedy like this occur.
His office was on the 30th floor of 3 World Trade Center (not one of the towers). His office faced the towers and he saw both planes hit. The explosion from the second blew out all of the windows in his buildings. He saw burning people
jumping out of the towers and strike the ground. He was outside a few hundred yards from the towers when the first one fell. He dove into a subway entrance as a black clould of ash and debris came rolling across the plaza. His friend broke his ankle in the dive for safety.
He knows of 10 friends who lost their lives today. Two of those are friends he grew up with.
His account is horrific. He saw someone dismembered by the falling debris just a few yards from where he was.
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
Then I heard an explosion over the phone, as my boss excalimed "Oh my God! There was just a second explosion, this has to be a terrorist attack!" He had to run -- for hopefully obvious reasons -- and I have not been able to contact him since.
This isn't informative in any way, but I simply wanted to put it in writing. If you read this, thanks for hearing me out. Sometimes just writing out what you feel is quite helpful. Most of my family is in New York, and so are most of my business aquiantances. I have no idea how they are all doing, nor how soon I will be able to return. To everyone else going through this uncertainty right now, I wish you the best of luck.
---
"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." --Dennis Miller
Akamai CTO was on one of the planes.
, 00 .html
http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,46710
Everyone knows that damage is done to the soul by bad motion pictures. -Pope Pius XI
> Secondly I am wondering why after the first
> crash, air traffic control staffers didn't throw
> up a red flag.
I agree. They should have a nation wide warning when a plane is hijacked. It wouldn't stopped this but it might have helped save the 200 or so emergency response people killed knowing that another plane was heading it's way and that this was deliberate.
Maybe not but this type of data should be distributed as quick as possible so SOMEONE can put the pieces together.....
:( It's a sad day indeed.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
I also thought, what a horrible accident, but I assumed that it was a private airplane. Today was a beautiful day to fly after all(I'm a private pilot).
From one corner of our floor on 48th floor, we get a clear view of the towers. We all went there. The north tower was on fire and there were papers floating in the air. I was trying to find out what kind of airplane caused the fire.
While standing there, I caught a sight of another airplane, a twin engine jet, it was banking to right. It came, what seemed like slightly below where we were and smashed straight into the other tower. A huge fire ball went up covering almost the entire upper third of the tower. Then it was gone and the second tower was on fire.
A second or so later, we heard the explosion and felt out building shake. At this point we all realized that this was no accident and we all ran to get out of the building.
As the elevators were full we ran down the staircase and then got out on the street.
Since clearly there would be no further work today, I decided to walk to Brooklyn to my mother-in-laws house. When I was walking across the Brooklyn Bridge we saw F-15s circling high over New York.
Just as I reached the middle of the bridge we heard a crash. I turned around and saw the huge tower of World Trade Center collapse....
I feel horrible...
...richie - It is a good day to code.
if you're wondering what you can do I have a couple of ideas for you.
1. give blood. the local red cross nationwide will be holding blood drives tomorrow if they haven't managed to start today. Don't bother going to the red cross site its attackdotted. just look up the red cross in your white pages. or go to the mall thats where my local is holding their drive tomorrow (thr first of many)
2. you can give money if you can't give blood. its easy too. I don't know about other places but hear in southeastern virginia you can go to Food Lion (local big box grocery store) at the register there are 1$, 3$, and 5$ coupons that can be scanned and add the amount to your bill. instantly you've given the red cross money to help.
I've already given my 5 bucks and tomorrow am heading for the mall to give blood. I suggest we all do the same.
I'm not military but I work on base. NAS Oceana in va beach VA. my entire community is in shock. we are the largest military town in the world and also a huge target. schools are closed businesses are closed streets are empty as family members say goodbye to sailors, soldiers and airmen as they are called into duty. the aircraft carriers that are underway for new york and D.C. are based here. I've probably served them a hamburger. (yes, mcdonalds) don't know if I'm going to work tomorrow or not.this is all too bizarre.
3. Lastly. most importantly, we should keep a level head, put aside our differences and back our president no matter how much we may dislike him. (card carrying democrat here) now is not a time for finger pointing and antagonism.
-
The parent comment will be modded to flamebait... but I think I have to agree with it.
There was nothing said in that statement. As usual, Bush couldn't even read it properly.
At least we're going to go after 'em...
"Yes.. no matter what the culture, folk dancing is stupid." -MST3K
Shove Nostrodamus up your nostrils. This is real. He lived in a fictional, fantastic world. Don't get the two confused.
One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on
Matrix.net has an interesting story detailing the bombing's effects on 'net traffic, and how it responded to the increased load.
-atrowe: Card-carrying Mensa member. I have no toleranse for stupidity.
The place was pretty calm, but our Congressman ordered us to get out and later the whole building was evacuated. It was a fairly bizarre experience being on the Hill surrounded by all kinds of people (aides, politicans, interns like myself, senior officials from various places around for meetings) with us all being moved away from the Capitol (the presumed target of any attack on Capitol Hill itself) and told to get home, whilst simultaneously the entire city was gridlocked and the metro system suspended.
There wasn't blind panic, but there was a definite feeling in the air that we were a serious target if there were going to be more attacks. Fortunately, there were not, and I managed to get home soon after 12, once Union Station's metro stop had been reopened.
The scariest thing about the whole experience, though, was not the possibility of attack against Congress, but the certainty that the event will be used as justification both for additional killings ("We must strike back against those responsible for harbouring these terrorists"), probably without taking the time to find out who really did it (just look at the debacles over the Lockerbie bombing and the US missile attack on a Sudanese asprin factory) and also for a forfeiture of even more civil rights in the name of security.
Speaking as an outsider, but one who has been working within the US political system, I find both prospects deeply scary.
Tom
My cousin, Maryann, worked in the WTC for the Port Authority of NY and NJ.
She was on her way to work, on a bus in NYC, when she saw the first plane hit. She, and the others on the bus thought it was an accident.
Then she saw the second plane hit and realized it was no accident.
She got out of the bus and started walking north. She went to the Port Authority Bus Terminal, but it was closed. As she worked for the Port Authority, they let her in to sit a while. She is short and overweight, and not used to all that walking.
She then heard that trains were leaving from Penn Station. So she walked on down and got on a very crowded train.
She didn't want to go home and be alone, so she went to my parent's who live a couple of miles from her home.
She told her story to my mom and dad. And cried and cried. She had worked there for over thirty years. She doesn't know how many of her freinds and coworkers are dead. She does know that her best friend is alive. She can't get the images out of her head.
Eventually her husband made it home and took Maryann to their house. Other cousins and friends came over to be with her, and a doctor cousin brought her a sedative.
It turns out one of the planes hit the floor she worked on.
I have not spoken with Maryann. My parents told me this story, thus it is a third hand story.
My parents and my cousins live in NJ. I live in NJ. I work in Torrance, CA. I fly out and back ever other week, Philadelphia to LA. My boss flies out every week to LA from Newark. It is possible that he and/or I new some of the flight crew (we've been back and forth for several years now). I'm sure I'll be quite nervous when I fly home, and each time I fly for quite some time to come.
I am a regular blood donor and last gave blood last Tuesday. Please give blood if you are able. Thanks.
Steve M
Leave. Don't return.
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
I set up apache on my dorm computer. It can handle a few people connecting up to it also. Also I need help with the content. Please get the good articles from around the net and i will post them.
http://maximus.resnet.uwyo.edu/
Thanks,
Brandon
My story is here.
:)
Have to add content to get past the lameness filter
The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.
As I walked into my third period geometry class today, I noticed everyone standing up and staring at the TV. "Humm, a little unusual" I thought, as I turned to my one friend to begin carrying on a conversation, and noticed a look of pure shock on his face. I looked upward toward the TV and saw a split screen image of the World Trade Centers and the Pentagon billowing out clouds of smoke. My first thought was "This can't be real", followed by "My God..." as people around me began crying. I soon learned from the news reporters as well as my fellow classmates that the building had been hit by civilian airplanes. Within 5 minutes, the priest at our school (I attend a Catholic High School) came on the PA and lead an all school prayer. Not long after, we watched in horror as the buildings collapsed, and the thought went through my mind, "Right now, many people are dying. Why was it them and not, say, me?". Many people were laughing, out of sheer shock. Needless to say, in the rest of my classes, no work was done. Several Alumni of my school were in the WTC as it was hit by the planes, so the teachers were even more concerned than most people (thankfully they all made it out before it collapsed). Throughout the day and during lunch, we continued to watch the TVs throughout the school, wondering "Who next? Why did this happen? What can we do?". As I sit here now and attempt to study for my tests tomarrow with no avail, I can't help almost crying when I think about all the people who lost their lives, and all the children returning from school to discover that their parents will never come home from work; never kiss them goodnight; never tell them they love them. As I realize now, the future for America's youth may be very grim indeed, growing up in a world where unmoral and unnecessary terrorism is a daily fear.
1. A country the size of the US, no matter how it conducts itself, will always piss someone off enough to engage in acts of terror.
2. Negotiation and appeasment only encourages the use of terror as a tool.
3. There is no sufficient rational (sic) for the calculated murder of non-governmental, non-military personnel on this--or any--scale.
4. How do you propose to open a dialog with civilians (in other words, not other governments) who actively hide from any contact?
I don't think we should ignore them--I think we should take them off the table. And that's not just a visceral reaction to today's horror. I would suggest that most people who still see this event in terms other than 'war' have not yet accepted the magnitude of the event. In all likelihood, four or five times as many people died today as died at Pearl Harbor (and we're all going to be sick of that comparison by tomorrow. Yet it is the only one we really have). This wasn't a natural disaster, or a car bomb of protest--it was an act of war. We need to address it as such, even though the enemy is not a conventional enemy.
No relation to Happy Monkey
http://msnbc.com/news/627064_asp.htm
I worked on the 51st floor of the World Trade Center, tower #1.
This morning, I took the N/R train to where the subway exit blends into the concourse underneath the WTC. At 8:45 AM I got out and started walking to the basement entrance to my building, but saw billows of smoke rushing towards me. People were screaming to get the hell out.
After exiting the building, it was snowing office paper and debris. On Church Street, from the street that borders the eastern block, a gaping hole 10 stories high breathed flame and smoke. Mobs of people were trotting away on the street; some were crying, worried about friends and colleagues. Then I witnessed the first few people, plunging to their deaths, apparently to escape the fire that would have painfully scorched them to death.
By this time most people were gathered around watching the building burn and calling people. I ran into an hysterical colleague who I tried to comfort. We then witnessed more people jumping. Sick of the ghastliness, we went out of sight of the buildings behind Trinity Church on Broadway.
A few minutes later, a second explosion shook the area, and panicked people ran away. It was complete mayhem. People tripped over each other. Mothers were protecting their baby carriages. In the fray I lost touch with my colleague. I was in complete shock, but I managed to walk home safely to the East Village.
Air traffic controllers were put on alert once they knew about the hijack, but they almost never redirect the rest of the airplanes. remember that they can't really do anything but watch where it's going. They had no reason to shut down the rest of the air traffic until the other hijacking became evident.
I still think the FAA acted very early to stop the rest. Who knows, perhaps there was another hijacker, but his flight got cancelled.
Excuse me -- I don't post much and I've forgotten my password.
While I'm far from an eyewitness, I thought I'd put my 2 cents in. I was working in downtown Pittsburgh this morning, thinking about an enterprise-wide system I've started on, when I heard about the first plane hitting the WTC. Like a lot of us, I guess, I thought it had to be an accident. When the second one hit, it didn't seem real. When the Pentagon was hit and we heard about a car bomb at the State Department, they started letting people with families go home and we heard they were evacuating people from goverment buildings on one of the main streets a block away. When the plane crashed in Somerset, about 50 miles east of here, they basically evacuated downtown Pittsburgh. There was some concern that it was heading for the USX tower, the tallest building in downtown Pittsburgh, positioned on the street I mentioned earlier between federal, state, and county offices. They also closed river traffic on all three of Pittsburgh's rivers, and they will remain closed for a while.
Here's what the Pittsburgh media's telling us. The plane was headed from Newark to San Francisco. After the WTC incidents, air traffic control in Pittsburgh and Cleveland lost contact with the plane. Around that time, a 911 call came in to the state police barracks in Westmoreland County from someone on board the plane. He said the plane had been hijacked and that he was calling from the bathroom. A few seconds later, there was what sounded like an explosion. (Westmoreland County is the county between Allegheny County, where Pittsburgh is, and Somerset County, where the plane went down.)
The plane itself first veered north toward Erie, PA, then made a u-turn south and east. There was some concern that it was headed back to Pittsburgh, which is why, I think, they evacuated the USX tower and the air traffic control tower at Pittsburgh airport. It then crashed in Somerset county, "veering back and forth" as one actual eye-witness put it. A small white plane was also spotted near the plane around the time it went down -- I saw it on video myself.
The area where the 4th plane crashed is gorgeous, Pennsylvania mountain company and, as nearly as I can make out, it's not all that far from a Episcopalean retreat center.
If anyone from Pittsburgh's Port Authority is reading this, thank you very much for the extra busses and the calm, orderly way you helped us get out of downtown Pittsburgh.
To all of you who have lost or fear you have lost family, please know that my thoughts and prayers are with you. For the rest of us, remember -- the people who did this want us to experience fear, pain, and confusion. You slash-dotters are a stubborn bunch. I say let's not give it to them!
Nolo te bastardes carborundum!
(Don't let the bastards get you down)
CJ Howorth
Not anonymous, and certainly not a coward.
If you have any pictures or video taken at any time today from New York near the WTC, please give a copy to the FBI or the police. They want to see if they can match faces of those in the area with any know terrorists.
I know how we all feel about facial-matching software, but please don't let your priciples get in the way of brining the terrorists to justice. Despite your fears, the *reality* of this kind of terrorism is far worse than the *possible* loss of privacy you fear.
PLEASE turn a copy in to the FBI or Police!
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"
I had issues with a lot of that movie. Yes, most of it has been proven real in my mind today, but I don't see NYC going to round up all the Muslims. At least martial law isn't declared.
No, I see this more similiar to a Tom Clancy Novel, the sum of all fears.
I think Bush looked like a deer in the headlights today. CNN showed him crossing the White House lawn from his chopper and the look on his face was.. just not as confident as I'd like. The statement was the same..
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.
For crying out loud, don't stream media -- turn on a radio.
The consensus from all the experts I've seen today is that the US is relying too much on sig-int. They think the attack today could only have been circumvented by old-fashioned human surveillance; that is, getting an infiltrator in the terrorist organization.
The NSA doesn't do that. That's really the CIA's area. And man, the CIA really sucks.
However, the current administration is in bed with the CIA so I doubt much will happen. But maybe. You never know. It wouldn't be the first time he's rebelled against daddy.
my old sig used to be funny, but then slashcode ate it and now it's not funny anymore
The media reported *ONCE* a possible crash in Colorado. Since then it hasn't been mentioned: no corrections to the original report, and no clarification.
Colorado is home to NORAD, isn't it? The installation wouldn't be harmed -- it's built to withstand nukes -- but it'd be a natural target for scaring the US.
Anyone heard anything more about this?
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
I woke up.. got on the train for school (Pace University about 3 mins away from the world trade center). My class is from 7:00am to 8:30am and then I get on the train inside the world trade center to go to work, 2 stops away.
My professors watch wasn't working to well and she ran the class kinda of late till like 8:40. I decided hell I need the book for the class I'll go inside the world trade center and pickup a book and get some coffee and head on to work.
I get to the front of the world trade center and hear a loud rumble like a plane. I look up and see a plane kinda low. I'm thinking damn this plane is gonna crash obviously the pilot is going to turn it into the hudson and hopefully that way he/she would minimize life lost. I kept looking.. and standing there.. standing there for about 2 minutes.. the plane isn't turning infact it's trying to get aligned. It slams into the world trade center and debris is everywhere.. TOTAL MAYHEM!!. Everyone is running and I'm standing there in total freaking awe. I couldn't believe it. It's really a good thing I was closer to the building the impact pushed the debris over my head but the guy behind me wasn't so lucky. I heard a big thud and turned around and the guy was laying on the floor. He had a hole in his head that needed to be stitched and was bleeding profusely.. I took off his jacket and try to stop the bleeding helping him. I'm a us army reverist so I know first aid.. I'm yelling for help dialing 911 on my phone (all circuits busy). About 10 minutes later I hear another big BOOM.. and look up and debris is going to hit me.. so I'm trying to pull the guy and decide that's not a good idea.. Good thing a guy helped me pull him over to the Millenium Hotel across the street.. we were in the garage area and debris is still coming down and the plane is still blowing up. I couldn't stop the bleeding on this guy so I told the other guy to stay there as I find a doctor or nurse or somebody.. I see an ambulance and flag it down immediately.. They put the guy on the strecther and I hope he's alright he lost alot of blood.. I've never see a wound bleed so profusely like that (PLEASE PLEASE IF NOTHING ELSE GIVE BLOOD.. JUST DO IT; PLEASE!!).. My dad works in that area so I went to his office.. relaxed a bit and I was actually fine like it didn't bother me. Then I called worked and said I was gonna be late (no one answered). So i went to the train and it was closed off.. so I walked to work which isn't too far.... that was my day.. i am now in shock and on call
Check this(the first post of the thread) out. The message is general and the date is a few days off, so its likely just a coincidence, but it's spooky nonetheless.
Giving blood is a good idea, but it's always a good idea. The blood shortage won't go away for weeks, and the overall need won't go away at all. If you can't make it to a donor center in the next few days, go to beadonor.com, find a place to donate in your area, and make a reservation. Even if you can't do it until next week, or next month, you might still save somebody's life.
I never watch television in the morning because I always wake up with about five minutes to get dressed and run up the hill. I
first heard the big news on the bus. Some yuppies in the back were talking, obviously taking about six seconds of CNN
coverage and filling in the gaps with their own conjecture and racism.
"It must have been Osama Bin Laden," one said. I wonder how much this person knows about Osama Bin Laden other than
the fact that the State Department made him boogeyman of the year a while back.
"We need to kick them [Arabs] out of the country. They can't come in any more. Sorry." said a woman.
After a few minutes I gathered that some planes had been hijacked and flown into the World Trade Center. No one knew who
did it, but just like the days immediately after the Oklahoma City Bombing, it was assumed to be the Arabs.
When I got to work things were even uglier. One of my coworkers said, "can't we just beat them to death?"
We're not even sure who did it yet. Members of various groups have claimed responsibility then other members of the same
group have denied it. Many folks on the 'net have cited a television broadcast of Palestinians cheering, but that means nothing.
Some have expressed shock at this, but really, how many of these same people sat patriotically by and watched remote-control
warfare on CNN when we attacked Iraq or Serbia? I'm not saying it's good that people are cheering, but I am saying it's not
surprising.
I'm hearing the usual epithets that one hears when people react to a shocking, violent news event: "sick", "crazy", "coward". At
the risk of appearing to defend the attacks, I'm really not sure if this is productive. Terrorists aren't necessarily "sick" or
"cowards". Terrorists are simply soldiers who can't afford uniforms and high tech military hardware. They are not necessarily
more or less sick and cowardly than the U.S. pilots who bombed a pharmaceutical plant in Sudan a few years ago, or the ones
who firebombed Tokyo and Dresden in the Second World War.
It's important to put things in context, keep a cool head, and deal with the situation as it exists. It's important that none of us be
like the guy who posted to Usenet after the Oklahoma City bombing that we should just randomly attack cities in the Mideast
(after it turned out to be an American, some folks asked him if he thought we should randomly attack cities in the Midwest).
We must follow the words of Mother Jones who once told us, "Mourn for the dead, fight like hell for the living."
That means fighting for living non-White non-Americans, too. Many of us are feeling a compassion for the victims of this attack.
We must keep this compassion alive if and when we hear calls for random bombings of the Mideast, or for attacks on civilian
populations in Iraq, Iran, or Afghanistan. We must fight like hell against the racism and xenophobia that hides just under the
surface of our culture, manifesting itself in people who want to kick Arabs out of our country or beat them to death. We must
safeguard the lives of our fellow human beings and we must be vigilant against those in power who will use this as an excuse to
destroy our civil liberties the way they did in the anti-German and anti-radical scares around the First World War or the
Japanese internment during the Second World War.
We must not get hysterical about this being the beginning of World War III. World War III would require both sides to have a
military. Those with a military don't hijack planes. We must not allow the anti-Arab violence that shot up dramatically during the
Gulf War happen again ten years later. We must stop our government from acting like the 800-pound gorilla of the world that
stifles all peaceful attempts at change (like our actions regarding the recent U.N. conference on racism) and therefore makes
violent acts of terrorism the only recourse for some.
We must counter hysteria and paranoia with logic and reason. We must protect our Arab-American brothers and sisters against
jingoism and hatred. We must remember that a lynching is a lynching whether it's performed by people in klan white, police
blue, or army green. We must end the bombing and starvation of the people of Iraq started by Bush the Elder and continued
under Bush the Lesser. This attack was on the centers of American military power and economic domination. Just as we mourn
for the dead who worked at these institutions, we must fight for the living who are victim of their policies.
If we don't fight for the living; if we allow hatred, paranoia, and jingoism to determine our actions; if we cheer U.S. military
superiority as made-for-tv bombing campaigns kill more civilians and destroy more lives; than we are the real cowards.
Incredible pictures, I haven't seen any pics of this detail anywhere else. Where did these come from?
As most of you saw, President Bush gave a quick speech to the US nation in which he included some refrences to his belifes. I think this is a allright and valid thing to do since this country was in part made to keep religios oppression out for every citizen. Unfortunatly, (MS)NBC doesn't agree and rebroadcasted the speech sans the 'God' parts ... the president couldn't even say God bless America. The attacks against our country are a terrible and upsetting thing, and a censoring of a religious minority in the US (Christianity) is icing on the dirty cake. :-(
Yes, indeed it is a crisis. But I hardly think that testifying against unjust legislation is self-centered.
Among other terrible consequences, the government is likely to use this event to leverage more scary laws which limit our freedom, this time for the sake of intelligence groups. It will also not be self-centered to be a voice of reason in these issues as well, so don't give up!
Of course, this is one of those things you never forget. So where was everyone when they heard the news?
I had just gotten out early out of Numerical Analysis (about 11:30 EST), and figured I'd run to my dorm room to grab my next class's book, and then run to Evans (dining) to grab some lunch so I could get something to eat. I entered the dorm and as I was turning into my hall, a friend of mine shouted out "Hey did you hear the news?"
I'm like "What news?"
"The train station blew up"
"What train station."
"The Pentagon got blown up"
"No shit"
"Yeah, a plane crashed into the Pentago and another plane crashed into the World Trade Center."
"Holy shit!" and I entered the room and began watching CNN....
the rest, is well, history...
I would go there for birthdays, all the way up to to the observation deck, and spend the day there with my Grandmother. I have more childhood memories from these buildings, by far, than anywhere else in the world.
It was an amazing place. Structured yet mysterious, metalic yet comforting, with an amazing variety of nooks, crannies, personalities, and other secrets to discover.
It was also a very social place, with people having lunch at the plaza, looking up at the building and sky [1] or sharing time on the observation deck or in line to get there [2].
I went to the observation deck every time I could; every time I was in New York City... I've easily spent over 100 hours there throughout my life. In March, I spent the day at the observation deck on tower 2, then had dinner at Windows on the World on top of tower 1 [3].
It was a spiritual place for me, as strange as that may sound. It presented an eagle eye view of the world I grew up in; my childhood in one panoramic view [4] [5]. There I could reflect on my past and look forward to tomorrow.
I would always sit at the same bench on top of the observation desk. The one closest to the Statue of Liberty. I'd stay there, looking out to the Atlantic, for hours and hours on end. I learned many things about myself and other other trade center visitors there. I would focus on that spot, on top of the building, on top of the world, one small, specific spot ... yet everywhere in the universe, in an expanding stream of thought. It was my own form of meditation, on an amazing bench that no longer exists.
When my wife and I got engaged, I wanted to get married at the top of the trade center. We didn't end up doing it, but others did. [6]
I loved it for the unique place that it was, but not nearly as much as I -- or anyone -- loved all of the unique individuals who have now died there. The tragedy is unreal. The reasons absurd. The people, and their lives, invaluable. I will never forget them.
I am not a vindictive person, but this calls for something beyond revenge. This requires a defense of our way of life, about our principals and individuality. Anything that can be done to remedy this should be done, and will.
God help us all, and especially those who did this.
-Jonathan ... http://www.robpatton.com/photoalbum/jontaylor/9.jp g )
( at the World Trade Center
Driving home took me twice as long because many places like the U.S. Embassy and many Jewish places were heavily guarded and many streets were blocked.
I myself had my father murdered last year, and I feel with everybody who has lost relatives or friends in this brutal crime, who will live through moments of this day through next months again and again, and who will not enjoy a happy moment for long while. Everybody who has ever lost a loved one as result of criminal violence knows what I am talking about.
What can help is to find out who did it, why they did it, and what can be done that such a thing will never happen again.
Jane's has some professional assessment of who might be capable and has a motive for doing such a thing.
Their analysts say Osama Bin Laden is Nr. 1 on the list of suspects.
Whoever will turn out to be behind this, it is very probable that he used Know-How that was originally created within some government secret agency like the KGB, the CIA, the Mossad or maybe a dozen other government funded agencies from around the world.
The USA has it's share in supporting "freedom fighters" against foreign rogue governments. The USA once even supported Osama Bin Laden when he organized the Rebellion in Afghanistan against the Russian occupation. Other examples of former U.S. friends are Sadam Hussein, who was supported in his war against Iran, the Contra in Nicaragua, and the UCK in Yugoslavia fighting against the Serbs. There are probably a few hundred groups and leaders supported worldwide by 'civilized' governments, many of them with the clear intention killing people to reach their political aims.
In the above and many other cases US agencies helped to spread weapons and guerrilla warfare techniques, and probably more important, it created shady organizations with capable leaders, structures and worldwide contacts with the primary purpose to spread terror and destruction.
The problem is, that after the war is won and the rogue government overthrown, these people, their weapons, their followers and their state of mind doesn't cease to exist.
Throw in some areas like Palestina, Afghanistan, Tchechenia, Africa and Middle/South America where children haven't been seen human rights or peace for the last 30 years, and you get a large supply of people who have nothing to loose except their miserable life, and get the chance to become eternal heroes within their society by blowing up themselves and taking as many as possible with them.
What can be done
No "civilized" country should sell any weapon to anyone without democratic legitimisation; even better, all international weapon trading should be simply forbidden, including hand guns
All secret agencies in "civilized" countries must be closer controlled to avoid creation of new guerrilla armies around the world
Anonymous Transfer and laundry of large sums of money must be controlled to dry up funding of weapon trade and funding of rouge groups
Every Individual connected with weapon trading or supporting guerrilla in a foreign country should be severely punished
Human rights must be honoured everywhere in the world, and everyone not honouring them should become outlawed
Fair International Trade and real substantial development support should help to create a reasonable level of wealth everywhere in the world
The problem with the above things is not that they require an idealistic world; the problem is, the would put many important and powerful people in the USA and other countries, Israel quite ahead, in the rogue camp.
The USA e.g. would have to face that killing imprisoned people, even convicted criminals, is not justice, but a crime against humanity.
And just hearing about some explosions in Kabul, it seems that the US Government has a long way to go, and to learn some more lessons. I do not have any sympathy for those lunatics in Afghanistan, but they are a result of cold war superpower games and did not chose their fate, and the killing of innocent people does not justify the killing other innocent people.
Another thing from history that many people in the U.S. are not aware of:
Terrorism works.
Especially in rich countries where life is highly valued, and people have a lot to loose they are easily scared by terrorist attacks, even if the real danger is statistically marginal compared to tobacco or traffic, the perceived danger is large enough to change a society.
And you can not stop terrorist attacks by people who are willing to sacrifice their life; just look to Israel these days.
You can not stop terror by killing people, as you can not cure your AIDS by fucking a virgin, as believed by many people in Africa and Asia.
Some predictions for the future:
Someone guilty will be found, probably Ben Ladin
Bombs will be thrown by the US Military, and more innocent people will be killed
A lot of annoying and expensive security measures will be taken
Civil Rights will be restricted in the U.S. and other civilized country
More innocent people will be killed in the U.S. by terrorist attacks
Finally, the terrorists will not achieve their ultimate goals and be hunted down and isolated from their environment;
to achieve this, compromises will be made to dry up the particular terror breeding grounds, like creating more wealth and stability in these regions
the fear of terrorism will have impact on political decisions, and in the long term US politicians will be more careful because of this fear
After this bad day I hope that today's events will be a unique experience in my life, and not the begin of a new era of terror and war.
Lets make this world a better place.
p.
Without order, nothing can exist. Without chaos, nothing can be created.
The Canadian Blood Services are overwhelmed according to TV news services. Please call 1-888-2-donate to arrange a time and place to give in Canada!
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Terrorists aren't fossil fuels, the world won't run out if you kill every last one. The idiocy of your plan would lead to atrocity far greater in magnitude than that which occurred this morning.
Kill all terrorists? How do you propose to identify them all? If our intelligence was even close to capable of accomplishing such a feat we would have stopped this before it ever happened. Lacking actual knowledge of terrorist identity, we'll just kill everyone in nations that have some reason to dislike the U.S. (most of them, for one reason or another). Yeah, that will really show us for the symbol of freedom and democracy we strive to be.
I know I just fed a troll, but I couldn't just not respond to this fool.
The ultimate plays for Madden 2006
Here is a very interesting page from the BBC -> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/talking_point/new sid_1537000/1537530.stm
It is a lot of first person accounts apparently from British citizens working in the US who witnessed the events in both DC and NYC.
It is a very interesting alternative to all the news reel footage on TV today.
I've heard reports that the perps took over the planes with *knives*, not guns.
God DAMN it, I don't want to get on a plane ever again without a sidearm. If there's a firefight on a plane, the plane can come down, but we just learned today that that's not the worst thing that can happen.
El Al has NEVER had a hijacking, because they have armed IDF men on every flight in civilian clothes, and the terrorists know it.
I want every man and woman with a concealed carry permit to be allowed to carry their weapon on aircraft from now on. This business of having hundreds of people at the mercy of a handful of nutcases has got to stop.
When that asshole shot up the train on Long Island a few years ago, he was able to reload TWICE before the people on the train realized that he wasn't going to spare anyone if he could help it, and jumped him.
All the crap we've put up with, invasion of privacy, victim disarmament, and general docility training didn't prevent this attack. I say it's time to change our tactics.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
A response to the 9/11/2001 World Trade center and Pentagon crashes
This morning the Pentagon and World Trade Center towers were bombed by hijacked planes. How will the United States react to this attack? How will the people of this country come to understand these events, and what will be done as a result?
The citizens and residents of this country have the responsibility to guide our leaders in how we respond. The tendency amongst our politicians and media will be knee-jerk retalitation. Please let us resist the temptation to cause more harm than has already been done. Those who took these actions are now all dead along with the victims. Others may also be found to be responsible and they should be bought to justice through the process of international law.
This, like all acts of terrorism, is abhorrent. But whenever discussing terrorism it is important to note that the majority of terrorist actions are carried out by nation states, although they are not labeled as such by the corporate media. These actions far outweigh the private, individual actions of terror that we are all assuming today's attack to be. This attack did not occur in a vacuum.
As of yet we have no idea who is responsible. We believe it to be a case of 'blowback'. Why? The pentagon is a symbol of military power. The trade center is a symbol of economic power. These institutions stand for and act to perpetuate U.S. global dominance. An attack on either of these institutions individually could be variously interpreted. The combined attack on both suggests a target of US global hegemony.
As Chalmers Johnson writes in his book Blowback (publ. 2000, Henry Holt): 'The term "blowback", which officials of the Central Intelligence Agency first invented for their own internal use, is starting to circulate among students of international relations. It refers to the unintended consequences of policies that were kept secret from the American people. What the daily press reports as the malign acts of "terrorists" or "drug lords" or "rogue states" or "illegal arms merchants" often turn out to be the blowback from earlier American operations.'
Chalmers catalogues a number of American policies that have given cause to a variety of peoples to resent America. Among those peoples that we have antognized over the past 50 years he sites (in no particular order) Libyans, Chinese, Japanese, Saudis, Kurds, Koreans (both north and south). To that we could add peoples of Serbia, Iraq, Indonesia, Vietnam, as well as nearly every country in africa and the americas.
From Johnson again: 'Terrorism by definition strikes at the innocent in order to draw attention to the invulnerable. The innocent of the twenty-first century are going to harvest unexpected blowback disasters from the imperialist escapades of recent decades. Although most Americans may be largely ignorant of what was, and still is, being done in their names, all are likely to pay a steep price--individually and collectively--for their nation's continued efforts to dominate the global scene.'
As we move forward from today's disaster, lets beware of nationalist responses of revenge which serve to continue the cycle of violence. Let us introduce the concept of 'blowback' to contextualize acts of international terrorism, even as we argue against them. Let us take this opportunity to rethink the global effects of our behavior and how they impact our future security.
Joseph Maurer (josephmaurer@hotmail.com)
Oliver Crow (ocrow@skymind.com)
I sent the following letter to my friends:
______________________
Subject: What should be the response to violence?
September 11, 2001
Everyone,
As is often the case, the Economist seems to have the best story: America under Attack
Also see The Economist front page
One of the important points made in the article is that security in U.S. airports and on U.S. airplanes before the bombing was lax compared to the security in Europe.
The Economist article does not mention that the Bush Administration in the U.S. had recently increased its support for the Israeli government and therefore also Israeli violence. The Clinton administration, in contrast, was more careful not to do things which could be interpreted as an incitement to violence.
It is amazing to me that "intelligence" authorities claim that they did not have any idea that there would be an attack like this. Below is a link to an album cover from a band called "The Coup". It is black American "Party Music". The album was sold long before today's bombing. The album cover shows both towers of the World Trade Center in New York in flames:
The Coup -- Party Music, album cover shows the towers burning.
Commentators on three of the largest U.S. TV networks, NBC, CBS, and ABC, have made comments that assume without debate that the U.S. will engage in military action in retaliation. One U.S. senator said on TV that the U.S. response should be comparable to the U.S. response to the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor. The U.S. response at the time of Pearl Harbor was to be the only country that has ever used nuclear weapons, causing genetic damage that continued long after Japan became a favored trading partner of the U.S.
Under the stress of conflict, people show how they truly think. It has always annoyed me that people who call themselves Christian often reveal that they don't really believe in the important messages of Christianity, and that they don't even understand those messages.
Basically, Jesus Christ's idea of not returning violence with violence means that we can protect ourselves, but that any response must be the true minimum necessary to achieve security. This is a theory that can be recommended even to the majority of people in the world who are not Christian. The theory seems to fit the facts. The facts seem to be that violence always has severely negative side-effects that overwhelm any effect that might be seen as positive.
This is my reply to the many people who are recommending violence as an answer to violence:
Do you have any thought that violence in retaliation might be a mistake, and might just invite further violence?
The U.S. government (not necessarily the U.S. people) has a history of thinking that violence is the answer. The U.S. killed 2,100,000 people in Vietnam and maybe 150,000 people in Iraq. The U.S. has bombed 14 countries in 30 years, killing a roughly estimated 3,000,000 people.
These people had mothers and fathers, friends and families and wives. Most of the citizens of the U.S. had, and have, no idea of the beliefs of the people that their government killed. Most people in the U.S. cannot even locate the countries the U.S. government bombed on a map of the world.
No matter how violent a country is, or how many people a violent country kills, there is still an inexhaustible supply of people in other countries who also want to engage in violence. Violence can be unending. Do you want that?
No matter how angry you are, there are thousands of people who are more angry than you. Do you want them to attack you?
The Bush administration recently increased U.S. support for the violence of the Israelis. This was sure to make the people being killed by the Israelis unhappy. Do you find it surprising that some of them are motivated to violence also?
There are many countries where people are severely distressed by Israeli violence. Recently there was a TV news story about street violence in which Israelis were killed. The Israeli counter-attack was shown on TV: A helicopter fired rockets at a building, causing huge explosions. It is not important in this instance whether the Israelis are the aggressors. What is important is that a significant number of people think they are the aggressors.
The problems between the Jews and the Arabs have existed for 3,300 years. The Jews say that they are the "chosen people" of God. The Jews say that Arabs are descended from an illegitimate child of their tribal founder, Abraham, and a slave girl.
It is not difficult to understand the thoughts of the Arabs. It is not difficult to understand that it is annoying to live next to a group of people who claim that they are superior, and that Arabs are inferior. It is not difficult to understand that it is annoying to live near people who claim that you are a descendent of a bastard and that God doesn't like you as much.
It is also not difficult to understand that the constant claims of the Jews of superiority over everyone else (including people of European descent like me) is mentally de-centering to Arabs who happen to be psychologically conflicted. Mentally de-centered people engage in violence. It's that simple.
Does the U.S. really have a place in a dispute that began 3,100 years before the founding of the country? How many people here really understand this dispute? What percentage of the citizens of the U.S. can even find Israel on a map of the world? I think the percentage is low.
I find the arrogance of my Jewish friends annoying, too. However, there are many differences between myself and the terrorists. I am less conflicted. I am better educated. It doesn't matter to me what other people have been saying for thousands of years; I don't believe Jews actually are superior. I don't live in an area where I am at risk of being killed by Israelis. I am not Arab, so I am not the target of the strongest claims of Jews that they are superior.
Violence is caused by mentally de-centered people. Being violent makes mentally de-centered people even more mentally de-centered. That's why violence is not a good answer to violence. Prevention is a good answer. Better understanding is a good answer. Being charitable long before any problems begin occurring is a good answer. But violence is not a good answer to violence.
Regards,
Michael Jennings
Bush's education improvements were
=== Report the survivors! === this is a clearinghouse for reporting people you know made it out alive.
Please report everyone you know of who has survived the attacks.
U. Berkeley has apparently supported this with a few hundred servers. GO TO IT AND SPREAD THE WORD!
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
put on FDR's "day of infamy" speech. Now listen to Bush's speech. There's just no comparison.
That's because Bush's speechwriters only had a few hours to write it. FDR had days to compose his, since the U.S. had known the attack on Pearl Harbor was coming. They simply did nothing to prevent it so the population would be in favor of going to war.
~Philly
Whenever we retaliate, I'm sure that innocent lives will be lost.
But...
The innocent lives will not be the primary targets, and I have some confidence that there will be every attempt to minimize the loss of innocent life. Today's attack was DIRECTED AT INNOCENTS, and that's a big difference. Or perhaps more properly, whoever planned today's attack considers that ANY American is part of the ENEMY. By that token, ANY of their citizens become part of our enemy, so there are no innocents there, either. Still, I'm sure our response will have some attempt at AIM, and not at common citizens. It gives me a little more respect for the Israeli over-zealous response to Palestinian attacks, where I had next to none, before. At least they have had *some* direction, not human bombs at restaraunts, and the like.
It's nothing but ugly.
The only good thing that can come from this is that world leaders will see how close to the brink we are, and pull back.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Sept. 11, 1922 - British mandate of Palestine begins - source - http://www.scopesys.com/cgi/today2.cgi
My condolences to those who have died and their loved ones
Yes, some of you know me as one of the "old" DC2600 guys. A scant few of you know me as a Defense Contractor employee that works on the US Army Aviation Budget as my "real" job.
The day began slow, was running late for work, showed up moments before the first WTC strike. Checked with boss on anything new since day before and when he is going to the National Guard Readiness Center. Nothing new.
WTOP is the only radio station that comes in at my cube, in Chantilly, VA, near the NRO (see other posts, other threads). WTOP reports that an airplane has hit WTC 1. I metion it to a co worker, retired 10 days ago Army Aviation instructor and other cool stuff (he was an instructor there when I was in flight school). Both of us sluff it off as just some dope flying in the wrong place.
A little while later, WTOP reports plane 2 hits WTC 2. I grab a more receptive audience, Larry the retired Command Seargents Major of the National Guard. We listen to the radio, dicuss what is up and start specuating. Yes, we began joking too... I offered a bet that the pilots were Allied students of Mark's from the mid '80s (Aviator mentioned above) from Lebenon... seeinng the MSNBC stream on the net sayig that AC #2 definately had a "PLO control touch"... etc.
Pentagon gets hit, Larry and others start calling our employees that work in the Pentagon and elsewhere in the area (we work on our firms site, we have people that work on client sites). Everybody is fine...
Talk ensues of units being mobilized (some of us are sitll reservists), what will happen (check end or this post), etc.
My family lives in TN, just remembering that mom has said that I work in the Pentagon for 7 years, even though I never have worked there, just visit the building on occasion for work or to impress my son. Call mom, remind her that I am safe and sound in Chantilly, VA, right by the NRO, directly on the approach path to Dulles Airport (yes, the paths of the planes landig orth, right runway, bisect my building) and I STILL do not work in the Pentagon. Concience satisfied.
News of a hijacked plane around Dulles, with F-16s in persuit gets to the office. 2 of us went outside to look for the chase. All we heard/saw was afterburer noise... went back to the 4th floor to get a better view.
Got e-mail from mom, aknowledgig my voicemeail. Sister had sent her a message asking if I was at Pentagon today (sorry, I do not work inside the beltway, aka getto), they were glad I was okay. Replied with story of looking for the dogfight (eventually was revealed as false report).
Folks with families here began going home just after lunch, big bosses begin telling us to go home. I tell them that I will stay, son (18) in TN only knows my work number, doubt that he is that worried about me but I want to be by the phone in case he is worried. Forwarded e-mail between me and mom to him.
Office gets deserted as I polish up some work and watch whatever web streams of the crashes I can find. Sr. VP comes through and asks if we had accountability of all of our people on client sites "as far as I know, yes, everybody is fine."
Head out for some dinner, deli is open, not playig radio, relaxing with an Italian Sausage sub. Head back to Reston, VA, cruise into the Town Center to grab a beer. Looks like a Rod Serling TV show, buildings intact, no people. Main drive through the place is closed off, almost everything is closed. Watch MSNBC and CNN in "Bistro! Bistro!", chat about the events with my trusty bartender, Mark Mac, and with others. Create conspiracies "it was the FIRA (French IRA), supported by the un-holy alliance of the Illuminati and the Masons"
Happy hour ends at 7, I get home to try to call Emmanuel of 2600 Magazine, "Off the Hook" is on soon, he might wat a voice from the DC area. No dice, phones still overloaded (sincerly thought that the phone emergecy was over).
Since I have been conditioned for over 22 years to be calm in events like this, I still am, but twinges of emotion creep in, anger, sadness, etc. since I am mentally waiting to be ready to do somethig, but in reality i don't have anythig to do in this situation, unless I get a phonecall from the Army.
My heart goes out to all of you that have experienced a loss today.
Granted, the intel guys *might* have been able to see this in advance, but these attacks were trivial to plan and conduct. DO NOT LET THE POLICE FORCES TURN THIS INTO AN EXCUSE FOR A POLICE STATE!
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
At work we could see the smoke from the burning buildings, but not the buildings themselves, since there was another building in between. However, when tower two fell, we could see all the dust from that, obscuring all of lower Manhattan from our tenth floor view.
At that point we were sent home, but I was still in disbelief that the tower had fallen. I thought maybe the top had slid off or something. Another guy thought he'd heard that the radio tower had collapsed, so I walked a couple of blocks north, then headed back west, to the north end of West Broadway.
Many people were there watching tower one burning as well as the dust from tower two. I glanced away for a moment, but looked back when I heard a gasp from the crowd, only to see tower one collapsing.
There was a puff of smoke around the top of the building, then the roof began to fall, including the huge transmitting antenna on top, caving into the building below. After a second or two, we could hear the rumble of the building - it sounded like thunder.
By now the crowd had turned to go north, some running, some walking, but everyone moving with some urgency. I didn't want to run since I didn't want to cause anyone else to panic.
As we crossed 6th Avenue, we passed Mayor Guiliani, surrounded by aides and reporters, who I found out watching TV later had been forced from his mobile command center near the towers.
I continued up 6th Avenue, and apparently the Mayor continued up West Broadway, where he tried unsucessfully to set up temporary headquarters at the swank Soho Grand hotel. We were to cross paths again as he ended up back on 6th Avenue, hoping to get into a fire house, however it was locked. Supposedly someone in the entourage tried to break down the door with a fire extinguisher, and they ultimately made it inside.
I spoke to a friend who works two blocks south of the towers. I'm not too clear on his timeline, but he was engulfed in dust and debris when the first building collapsed and I think he said he took shelter in the building where he works, only to be nearly flattened by the second building falling about half an hour later. He was incredibly fortunate that he had no physical injuries and was able to make it home OK, though rescuers initially wanted to take him to Staten Island.
He also said he called a friend who'd been working in one of the towers and that they had left the building immediately after the first plane hit and were on the street when the second one hit 18 minutes later.
That suggests to me that the loss of life will turn out to be a good deal lower than it could have been. In fact, another friend pointed out that the bombing in 1993 may have actually saved lives today, as those who remembered it may have left at the first sign of trouble.
Now for some personal thoughts: I feel incredibly fortunate that my close friends and family are all unhurt, though I'm sure I'll find out soon enough about acquaintances and friends of friends, etc. who weren't so lucky. I wish everyone could be so lucky.
My wife, Stacy, worked in tower #2, 21st floor. She was in a
meeting at 8:45 when the first plane crashed into tower #1. She
heard the plane coming in, loud enough to make her think it was
flying unusually close to the buildings.
After the crash, she saw large chunks of burning debris falling
down. Her office decided to evacuate immediately. Thanks to all
the fire drills they've done since the '93 bombing, they knew
exactly what to do, where to go. They got into the staircase
quickly, and started walking down the 21 floors.
Stacy didn't hear any alarms or building announcements. There
were other people in the staircase, heading down, but it wasn't
crowded.
When Stacy and her coworkers got to the lobby, security guards
directed them away from the Liberty St. exit. They used the
Church St. exit instead. Outside the building, security guards
told them to move away from the building. One of the guards kept
shouting, "It was a plane, not a bomb!"
At first Stacy hesitated, because she saw debris coming down,
but she realized it was paper from offices. So she crossed Church
St.
As Stacy was crossing Church St., she turned and looked back for the
first time. She saw the flames shooting out of the top of tower #1. She
stopped in her tracks for a few seconds, stunned.
Across Church St., Stacy found a bunch of her coworkers in front of
Century 21. Their boss told them to go home. Stacy turned and starting
walking down Cortlandt St. towards Broadway.
Near Broadway, Stacy stopped to look again. She didn't see the
second plane crash into tower #2, but she saw the enormous
fireball explode. People started screaming. Everyone on the
street started running away from the Trade Center.
I asked her what it sounded like. Oddly, she doesn't remember hearing it.
There were fire engines and emergency vehicles everywhere.
Stacy ran about 3 blocks before she felt safe. She walked to the
entrance of the Brooklyn Bridge and sat down on one of the benches
to collect herself.
As Stacy walked across the bridge, she kept looking back at the burning
towers. They were intact while she walked. On the Brooklyn side, she
picked up a bus and was home by 11 AM.
My condolences go out to the friends and family of the victims of this horrific crime. Attending an east coast college, I have talked with many people who are from the areas where the attacks occured. This has hit close to home. I really have no words to describe what I am feeling.
With that said, I refer you to the excellent salon.com. Their coverage of this event has been extraordinary. I especially hope you read the first-person accounts of the terror. A number: that is difficult to identify with. A person, however, is much different. Remember each one of those thousands was a person, with his/her own life and nothing should be taken for granted.
Given the amount of time we spend on /. insulting each others' countries, it really means something to know that when something horrible happens, the rest of the world actually does care.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
When I got on the subway this morning, there was some mumbling on the intercom, but I couldn't hear what it was, and paid no attention. At the next station, the intercom was clearer, and the doors were open long enough to hear "This train will not continue past Chambers St. An airplane has struck the World Trade Center."
At first we thought it was an accident, but a woman in the subway car had a walkman, and by the time I got out at Times Square, we knew that there had been a second crash, and it was probably no accident. I got into my office, and joined the group huddled around a TV in the conference room. A minute or two later, WTC Two collapsed.
We were all in shock. To think that this was happening a mere two or three miles from our office, to the tallest, greatest buildings in the City, was unbelievable. The guy who handles our hardware resale started crying, realizing that the people from Sun that he had worked with for so long had been in those buildings. Other people stared at the screen, or cried, or tried to call friends and family members.
I stayed around the office for another hour or so, and then wanted to get back home (uptown). By then the subways were out of commission, so I had to walk.
For perhaps the first time, I was pleasantly astounded by the people of New York. I had expected the worst: A terrorist attack on the World Trade Center, you might expect chaos in the City. I had been worried about chaos in the streets, riots, looting, violence... With all the City's forces occupied in combatting this threat downtown, people could take advantage to further their own purposes. But there was none of that. People were calm, rational, and helpful. People who had radios shared them with others. People walked steadily uptown, no panic, no hysteria. I wanted to give blood, but there were too many donors already lined up, so I have to wait until tomorrow.
The people of NYC have actually responded well to a challenge to their safety and their peace of mind. What happened here today was a tragedy of epic proportions, and will never be forgotten, but we will always remember as well that New York City did not collapse when the Twin Towers did.
-Joe
I've heard reports that the perps took over the planes with *knives*, not guns.
I'm amazed at how easy it is to fly with a knife, especially one that's not just a swiss army knife. I've flown with a coworker several times who carries on a Spyderco folder with a 4" blade. (It's apparently FAA legal, but most airlines set tighter limits on blade length.) The crack X-ray security troops never even notice the knife because he packs it so it's vertical on the X-ray machine and they don't see a classic blade shape. I've personally flown a dozen legs with a 3" Spyderco folder and with only one exception, I have been able to simply walk through metal detectors without setting them off. (On that exception, the security tech inspected the knife and gave it back to me.)
I'm not suprised at all if these guys got knives on the planes. I'm just suprised that they were able to gain control of the planes with knives.
I can not understand how one individual with a knife could take over a cockpit and either force a pilot to fly into a building or disable everyone and fly the plane himself. I've seen report after report where some drunk a-hole acts up on a plane and a half dozen guys beat him down. Where were those guys on these flights?
I am a cadet at the United State Military at West Point, NY. We are located about 50 miles directly North of NYC on the Hudson. If you don't know what USMA is it is a military college that give a top of the line education in exchange for 5 years of you service as an officer in the army after you graduate. I am a freshman (plebe) here. We are totally military oriented. The majority of teachers are officers and our environment revolves around the military.
About 0900 EST I had just woken up from a nap and was working at my computer. A plebe from across the hall come over and told me to turn on the news; a plane had hit the WTC. I did that and saw the disaster. My roommate just got back from a class and started watching. We had not heard many details but with knew this was going to be big, especially in our area of work.
0930 I headed to my Psychology class. Before class we put the TV on and watched the news. Even the teacher was somewhat upset. While I was watching (before 0945 when class started) the bottom of the screen had a line about a fire at the Pentagon. This was all I heard until I came out of class at 1040.
I walked out in the hall and everybody is abuzz. I asked someone what was up and found out both the building have collapsed. I went back into a classroom with a TV on to set what was up. I found out that both buildings were down and a plane hit the Pentagon. Then they said a plane near Pittsburgh was hijacked. I am from around near Pittsburgh. Around this time I headed back to my room. An auditorium was open with CNN playing and many cadet's in there watching.
Back in the barracks I walked past my roommates Team Leader's room (TL is a sophmore -yuk-who is responsible for squaring away their plebe). She called me in to watch (technically its against the rule for plebes to use their computers to watch TV or listen to music until Christmas break). We realized this was big, really big. A good number of Cadets are from military families or know someone who works in the Pentagon. This was around 1110 and we heard there were several planes that hijacked and the Capitol Building was bombed (this later turned out as false).
Lunch formation was 1200. We were told that business would go on as usual. The Corps of Cadets would continue activities as normal. No classes were canceled. The skies were clear all day; no smoke or anything.
Security is much tighter. The post is open only from one road. We must carry our military ID's everywhere in every uniform. We are not permitted to order any food into post (we have a MickeyD's that delivers). The barracks are open only from one entrance. All passes and off post privliges have been suspended. High accountability standards are being enforced.
Everyone is upset. It hits us especially hard. We are a target as the nation's youth and future of the military. We are prepared for anything. Believe me, we in the military are not all gung-ho about nuking them. We are rational people. This is a travesty against our country. We as a people cannot stand for this. Also, don't place blame on any source until we are sure who has done this.
Today was a very scary and tragic day in New York City. I commute to work by taking the subway downtown to the World Trade Center, then transferring to another train to get across the Hudson River to New Jersey.
This morning I was on the train (late for work as usual) and I was surprised to find the subway stopped in a tunnel, then it bypassed the WTC stop. I got out at the next stop and went above ground, looked up and saw the WTC 1 tower on fire. When I heard that a plane had hit the building, my first thought was "terrorist attack", so I headed away from the building - southeast - to the corner of Broadway and Wall Street. There were hundreds of people in the street looking up at the WTC towers and trying to call home on their cell phones (which were overloaded and not working)
I queued up to use the pay phone, called home and my wife told me that it was a terrorist attack, the Pentagon had been hit as well, I'd better come home quickly.
I continued walking south on Broadway, and heard a noise like a jet plane passing close overhead, then a tremendous BOOM. Everyone in the street screamed and ran, we all thought it was a bombing. This may have been the 2nd plane hitting the second WTC tower. There was a tremendous cloud of smoke and ash filling the air, you could not see or breathe well. It looked like a war zone. Someone said that the towers had collapsed, I thought to myself "that can't be right. those towers can withstand anything." Everyone was running, trying to get the hell out of there.
I ducked into the subway station and tried to get a train uptown, but no trains were running. People were terrified. I thought about catching the Staten Island Ferry to get out of Manhattan, but I decided I'd rather be at home with my wife. I went above ground, started walking east - away from the financial district. Thousands of people were flooding the streets, walking towards Brooklyn and uptown. I spotted an empty cab (!) and got in, picked up another passenger and we managed to get through the crowds to the highway. I got home safely around noon.
We then started calling family and friends, including some of my friends that work in the WTC. Luckily, all of my friends are safe and accounted for. Life is going to go on but I think things are going to be very different in NYC for a long time.
Not only that... read the 7th post... HOLY SHIT.
It seems that discussions veer between retaliation and appeasement.
Neither is perfect.
Retaliation will injure innocents - just as the attack on the WTC injured innocents. The families of those innocents will demand vengence against the US. Just as the families of those killed in New York care not about the sufferings of the Palestinians (caused by the US or not), those killed by the US's retaliations will see the US as their enemy. Result, like it or not, is a spiral of hatred and violence.
Appeasement is no better. White flag... bull. Tell those with grievences, real or imaginary, they can get what they want with a few pounds of semtex and the US faces terrorism for years to come.
Violence begets violence.
Anyone who has read George Orwell's 1984 knows the most effective answer lies capturing the guilty, while not making them martyrs. In 1984 the 'enemies of the state', when captured and convicted, go on television to profess their guilt and repeat 'ad nauseaum' the error of their ways.
Impossible? Sure.
But it may be the only way to stop a spiral of violence.
My heart and tears go out to the victims, their families and friends.
Robert
--- My dad's political betting
What happens to you when the plane is de-pressurized?
Duh, it doesn't hit a building full of people?
Do you ever think?
Well, there's a question that rebuts itself nicely.
Dahlmann tightly grips the knife, which he may have no idea how to use, and steps out into the plain.
I saw the second plane hit the building as I was on the phone with my wife who was staying at her parents with my 3 week old son. I saw debris fly everywhere and a huge fireball. At that time I told my wife I love her and ran to put on some clothes and flee my apartment. After grabbing the first clothes I could see, I ran out into the street where there were thousands of people littering the streets in amazement. Utterly stunned at what had happened. Women were crying and running. Everyone was getting as far away as possible. As I walked I saw people jumping or falling from the building's upper floors. I will never forget that sight for as long as I live. I walked up to my office which was about 25 minutes from the WTC. From there I was able to call family and loved ones to let them know I was ok. Co-workers who had made it into the office were crowded near a radio as our internet service was spotty at that time. From the corner office we all saw both towers collapse. We saw dust covered cars and dust covered people making their way uptown from the financial district. After finally deciding to leave the office and try to get to Queens, I had to walk from Spring Street where my office is to the 59th street bridge and walk across. In Queens I managed to catch the 7 train to Flushing and get my father-in-law's car. I drove a coworker home and then made my way back to my in-law's house where I am staying. I might not be able to go back home for weeks. I am not sure what has happened to my home or my neighborhood. One thing is for certain though. A lot will have changed. Tonight after dinner I went to the nearest hospital to donate blood. I have never done this before and now is when I am ready to start. I am glad that my family and all the people I know are ok. My thoughts go out to those who didn't make it.
Thank you for your first-hand account.
After the initial shock of what had happened wore off, I began thinking: I wonder how many people were saved because the first plane hit at 8:45, instead of, say, 11:00?
I hope there was enough time between the first and second plane crashes that people were stopped from going up the twin towers.
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
He said nothing .
Wrong. He said it all:
"We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them."
He doesn't need to speak, just act.
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
Right, and then some moron's firearm accidentally goes off, blows a hole in the floor, depressurizes the plane and kills everyone.
There's a reason firearms aren't typically allowed on planes.
A friend called this morning to tell me that a plane had just crashed into one of the World Trade Center Towers in New York, and like so many other people, I watched in horror as the second plane hit. My first thought was for my youngest sister who had just moved to New Jersey and was within 20 minutes of New York. I was imagining her visiting the World Trade Center or checking out New York or any number of senarios that could have her near those towers, telling myself that the odds of that being true were probably nill even as I dialed her number. I was only mildly worried and irritated when all I could get was a busy signal, and I'm hitting redial when news coverage switched to the Pentagon and word came that a third plane had crashed in DC.
...It took me 2 hours to get ahold of my sister in New Jersey, and she was heading out the door to donate blood and try to help at the blood donor centers (She's a nurse.) She told me the local news was showing people falling from the building because they couldn't see through all the smoke that there was no longer a floor in front of their feet. Her neighbor had a son who worked in the WTC on the 88th floor, but because he was 10 minutes late, he was only on the bottom floor when the disaster occurred and he escaped before the buildings collapsed.
My father works in the Pentagon and my other sister works just across the river from the Pentagon. I freaked. My entire family was next door to or inside this entire disaster, and every fsking phone line and cell circuit seemed to be busy or down. I dialed my mother, my father's office, both sister's apartments, their cell phones.
My father works for the DIA and ABC had been reporting that the side of the building hit had been where the DIA offices were. But I finally got a hold of my mother to learn that my father had been in the basement of the Pentagon watching the WTC coverage on TV, and idly speculating about the odds of them surviving a hit if they were next, casually figuring their odds were pretty good since they were 4 levels of walls and security inside. My dad didn't even know they'd been hit until my mother called and told him to get his ass out of there because another plane had crashed into them. When he told her he'd go check and see if it was true, my mother ordered him to get home or else, and to get my sister out of there.
He and a coworker walked to my sister's office across the way because there was no way to get to the cars in the wreck of a parking lot. By the time he got there my sister's company had already been evacuated so he walked to her apartment in downtown DC to make sure she was ok. I finally got through to them on the phone as they were heading south in my sister's car.
While I'm incredibly thankful that my family is safe, I'm also aware that so many other families are not, and this a nightmare we won't be waking up from anytime soon.
Sedai
There are some similarities: the grim determination to rescue, clean up, and continue life as normal and not let it affect you. The pulling together of people from all walks of life uniting to help each other. The faith that sustains.
However, this attack feels very different. I think that the biggest difference is how unbelievable this attack is. I'm still having trouble comprehending that it actually happened in real life. Most suicide bombings are sickeningly real, while this is like a horrible fantasy.
There is also a freshness to the horror here. This is something that Americans have not really had to face. It is a naivete lost, a bubble burst. Very different from the weariness that Israelis feel at yet another attack.
Another aspect of this tragedy is that, to me, it is so huge that it's impersonal, faceless. We don't know who did this, have no person to put our finger on. There is no shaheed, his "heroic" face plastered throughout the Palestinian Authority. Nor do we really know why, or even exactly what their target was. The American government? The American people? Bankers? Globalization? Or, as our leaders proclaim, Freedom and democracy?
And the losses are so massive that it's impossible to get a sense of who the victims are, unless you know someone personally. I think that's the most important thing for us to concentrate on right now: there are real people who are real victims. We can't let the sheer numbers obscure the pain. Unfortunately, this attack will redefine tragedy: from now on, if "only" a hundred people are killed, that will seem like nothing. We must remember that each person is an entire world.
to quote bubya
"We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them,"
This line is very significant. It sets the stage for Bush to direct the armed forces/cia/nsa etc to strike boldly and generally at any all terrorists and the countries they live in. Be prepared to watch video's of smart bombs taking out buildings and compounds in countries around the world, esp. the middle east.
And the follow-up to these attacks: more terrorism, heaven forbid a couple of suitcase nuclear devices are involved.
This war is un-winable!
Whatever happened to the day of war commanders sending messages (on horseback/foot) to one another before deciding to let their soldiers storm into death and battle.
I sincerely hope dubya doesn't over react, he should listen to his european counterparts that have been dealing with terrorism (albeit on a smaller scale) for decades.
Get ready, this could get a lot worse in the next decade before it gets better.
Y
no sig.
We played the game with Oklahoma City. We were wrong - it ended up being a homegrown military man who fought in the Golf War to protect America.
I don't think racial assumptions and stereotyping is going to help resolve this situation any sooner, nor adds to the great discource that is remarkable appearing on slashdot.
F-bacher
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
I was in your country when the guy went crazy down in Hobart. My entire trip changed that day. I was in Adelaide at the time.
Had the Hobart tradegdy happened in the US, it would have had maybe 4 minutes on the news, everyone would have said "That's horrible," and then the news would have been right on to their next 'skiing squirrell' story.
But not you guys. I was touched by the grief everyone showed - even when I was what, 600 miles away from Hobart? Everyone had the same look that my office coworkers and I had today - one of shock. Even at the end of the week when I got on the plane to head home the populace was still in a state of mourning. I could tell it really bothered your nation.
I honestly still can't believe that what I saw on TV not 12 hours ago really happened. Yes, I sat there and watched. Yes I read the news. No, it has not sunk in yet. On the news today a guy who had made it out of the WTC said, "This is Die Hard movie."
It seems like one to me too.
I was having my car serviced on US 1 just south of Crystal City, when the sales guy mentioned that a plane had hit the WTC. I thought it was a terrible accident, but assuming it was a Cessna or some such, I thought little about it.
Then he said a second one hit, and identified it as a twin-engine passenger jetliner. At that point I began, as everyone else did, to suspect terrorism. It was still a little too new, and all the sites were flooded (there wasn't a TV near).
Then, as I continued to read Analog, I thought I heard something and then heard some fire engines. I didn't connect it until someone just made a choking sound and pointed out the windows toward the direction of the Pentagon. We could just begin to see white smoke, quickly followed by gray, billow over the PTO buildings and the hill above Crystal City.
At this point we realized there was something coordinated going on, and people moved from looks of worry to upset. We went to the street to get a better view, but there wasn't much to see. I have a fatalistic bent and decided there wasn't much I could do one way or another at the moment (no EMS or relevant skills) so I went back inside but couldn't begin reading again. At this point my nearly forgotten car was brought out, and the tech, visibly upset, just waved at it.
"It's running, keys in the ignition. Just...screw the paperwork, you should be set to go." He immediately went to the more important, if less immediate news that was coming from a radio they had.
I decided it was time to go to my office, which slightly further south and closer to 395, where people were again upset (as I must have looked). Reality clearly hadn't sunk in for some. We heard additional jets but it quickly became clear that they were fighters--one went supersonic and left a boom that had us pouring out onto the street and scanning the horizon for smoke. There were cheers from the 7-11 next door when they realized there were F-16s overhead.
After that, it was just waiting and worrying and trying to wait until the phone lines were clear enough to call my folks and reassure them.
Well, I knew this was a possibility when I moved here. It's too bad--there are so many wonderful things here.
...but this quote needs to be said.
"An eye for an eye only leads to more blindness."
--Margaret Atwood
I can't verify what you say about beadonor.com, but it is pretty poorly constructed.
Redcross.org is back, but all they offer is a link to your local Red Cross chapter -- which may or may not have online donation information. Still, you can call them and find out a local place to go. Donation centers are backed up, so calling ahead is a good idea.
Some other useful information pages:
American Association of Blood Banks.
Google Blood Banks page.
Yahoo Blood Banks page.
There is a difference between a "simple" bombing and 20K - 50K people dead at once.
This day is unfathomable. To sit at home and watch those two towers collapse. There are about 4-5 other buildings which are on the verge of collapse as well. Believe it or not it could've been much worse. When the towers collapsed they fell straight down. If you've ever stood under them it's almost overwhelming how large they were. If they fell to the side God knows how many additional buildings would've been demolished. The collapse literally could've demolished a few blocks.
My girlfriend lives on John street, about a 5-10 minute walk from the Trade Center. Two times when we were walking around there I specifically stopped my girlfriend and told her to look up and think of how catastrophic it would've been if the towers fell after the bombing a few years ago. How many would've been killed. When I discussed this with her I shook my head and thought to myself how truly terrible it would've been. Now it's come to pass.
Live shots of Manhattan show one big cloud. You can't even see many of the buildings. The NY skyline is going to be so different now. No World Trade Center! Another things that makes us New Yorkers think for a minute is that most of us likely know someone that works in the building. I know at least two. My next door neighbor is on the maintenance crew for the two towers. Amazingly he stayed home today to catch an appointment with his doctor. He was actually in the first World Trade Center bombing. Two of his friends were killed. Since then he's had a heart attack and can't really run. If he were there this time he might not have been able to breathe with all the dust. He wouldn't have been able to run. He'd likely be dead. Another friend of mine also was at home since he was on paternity leave... his wife just had a baby last thursday. My neighbor had a year until retirement. At this point, he'll likely take an early retirement. My other friend will likely need to look for a new job.
I live in Queens. I've been hearing the sirens of ambulances and fire trucks all day. It's sickening to think that they're all on their way toward the WTC. I work on 6th avenue in Manhattan, in midtown. I normally work from 10-6, and today was no exception. I also normally listen to the radio in the morning but today I got paged and had to hop on the computer and do a few things. Still have my Unix group's 24 hour on call pager from the first day I had it, which was last week waiting in line for Bjork Riverside Chapel standby tickets. I ate my breakfast and went on my way. Most of the people on the train seemed oblivious to the WTC tragedy. When I got to Queens Plaza while on the E train a few people that got on the train started talking about it. For those unfamiliar with NYC, the E train's last stop is right in the basement of the WTC. The trains stopped running for some time and we were left waiting on the train for about an hour. Finally we started walking from car to car to the front of the train, walked into another train, and yet another until we could finally get out at the 50th street station. Everyone was confused. People got off the train and were looking around, not knowing where to go or what to do. The conductor had no solutions for anyone, telling everyone that the one thing they couldn't do was use the train.
Once I emerged from the subway and onto the sidewalk there were crowds everywhere, as there normally is in NYC... but it felt different. Everyone was trying to make calls on their cell phone. No one could. There were huge lines at pay phones. Large groups of people were gathered around two cabs that were pulled over to the side of the street with their radios turned up all the way. Many people passing buy stopped to listen for awhile. I tried making a call on my cell phone unsuccessfully. I got in line at one of the payphones. Everyone was talking to everyone. Never in my life have I seen anything like this. New Yorkers are usually so busy, running to this or that. These people that are normally running around were walking slowly, talking to each other about the terrible tragedy. People that would usually pass each other on the street, off to their jobs or meetings, were all stopping to randomly talk with people. I was one of them. I only heard that a plane flew into one of the WTC towers. This was information from someone on the train that hadn't heard about the other plane crash. I just assumed it was one of those small commuter planes. Oh how wrong I was. When I spoke to the woman in the line before me she told me that there were 2 LARGE planes, one of which crashed into each tower. Both towers had collapsed. I got in line with the intention of telling my boss I was going to be late and whether or not I should go to the main office in NYC instead of hopping on a bus to Leonia, NJ (our data center). The moment I found out what actually happened I stepped out of line, took a couple breaths, and walked to my office building. Large groups of people congregated around small 2" screen televisions at delis and fruit stands. A huge crowd was standing outside of Fox News Channel's office, which had large tv's in each window.
Half of the people I knew in my building were standing outside, many of which approached me immediately to see if I knew about what had happened. I did. I spoke with them for a few minutes, all of us in shock, and then went upstairs. Almost the entire floor was in the lobby, watching the horror on tv. No one said anything. The cafeteria offered food to everyone for free. A nice gesture at such a terrible time. I ate, used the bathroom, and went back downstairs. We were told we could leave whenever we wanted. I left with someone else that lived in my area, fully prepared to WALK home. I never imagined I'd have to walk home. Everyone in the office was looking at maps when I was upstairs, wondering how they'd walk to their homes in Brooklyn and other boroughs. Luckily, someone mentioned that service leaving manhattan was gradually being restored. On the way out I saw my boss, a green card holder from mainland China. Someone that's usually so forceful and tenacious. He ran up to me... "Chris, I've got to get out of here. All these building are making me nervous." I asked him to come with my friend and I but he declined, saying he needed to stick around to speak to his boss first. As my friend and I were walking toward the subway we noticed a lot of people looking up. Not tourists mind you, native New Yorkers. Everyone was looking up. While still in shock my friend and I nervously joked about little things regarding work, often cutting ourselves off to talk more about the tragedy. The small talk about work quickly removed itself from the conversation, quickly to be replaced by more talk of the tragedy.
Then it happened. A large roaring sound... something that we normally don't pay much attention to, living in a large city and all. No one really pays attention to it. Just another sound to make up all the background noise that is NYC. My friend and I paid attention to it, as did everyone else on the street. It was a plane. Just an ordinary plane. Something we take for granted and use from time to time when we need to go certain places. Something that passes overhead in NYC with great frequency. Something that we normally don't pay any attention to. Today on that street everyone looked up toward the plane nervously.
The sound of planes is something that I normally don't notice. I don't anticipate feeling that way again for some time...
--Chris
I go to stevens college in hoboken nj, and from there you have the best view of the city, both empire and WTC. I took some pictures of the tragedy, if you want to see them go to http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~mphipps/
I haven't seen much from people who were in the Pentagon (maybe /. is not the most popular website for Pentagon employees.) I was in the Pentagon when the plane hit this morning. About 10 minutes before it hit, I had been in an office on the side of the building where the plane went in watching the news coverage of the WTC attacks. Ironically while we watched, we discussed how vulnerable the Pentagon was to that kind of attack since it was right on the flight path to National Airport (although the plane that hit turned out to have come from Dulles.) I was on the other side of the building by the time it happened and didn't even hear it. I came out of another office and saw a lot of people moving very purposefully down the corridor towards the building exit. I didn't see any signs of panic as mentioned in a few of the news stories. The people in the office that I had left before the crash all got out. They heard the explosion and saw flames over the roof of the next section of the building and evacuated immediately.
While I was in line at Pentagon City Mall waiting to use the payphone to tell my wife I was alive, several of the other people in line were discussing what had happened. One was a Navy officer whose office was on an upper floor of the D-ring (the second outermost ring) of the side that was struck, and other than noticing how loud the explosion was he hadn't known just how close he was to where the plane went in. Another guy was outside on the side where the plane went in. He said it was so low that it clipped a light pole on the way in. He was the first source where I heard that the plane struck the ground just short of the building (or it might have been much worse.) He also said that a lot of the fire problems were probably because the side hit had an emergency generator with a large diesel tank (thus the thick black smoke early in the fire.) Several people who left the building before I did reported hearing a secondary explosion which might have been the diesel tank going up. I met back up with some other people I knew a bit later. They had been in a snack bar on the A Ring (the innermost ring) of the Pentagon and heard a not very loud bang, looked down the corridor toward the outside of the building, saw smoke, and crossed the courtyard to leave the other side of the building. The only (somewhat) good news was the plane struck on the side of the building where a section that had just been renovated met the next section to be renovated, so not everyone had moved into the renovated section and some people had already been moved out of the other section. That had to have reduced the death toll. Other than that, waiting around looking for a way to get home, I learned a lot less about what was happening than the people at home with TV and internet news.
As far as the emergency response, I was very impressed. You have about 5 different police jurisdictions around the Pentagon and the police very rapidly arrived to direct cars away from the area to allow emergency vehicles through and weren't getting in each other's way. There were fire trucks arriving on the scene before I got out of the building, but after the nearby units had arrived the traffic snarl up slowed the arrival of more distant units.
I work in a federal building essentially next to the White House, and today was simply unreal. By the time I got into work, the first 3 crashes had already taken place, but there was still confusion about exactly what had happened. Both towers were still standing, but the first thing I heard from a coworker was that the WTC had been bombed, and that they were in ruins. It's hard to describe the effect that news like that has on you. She then said there was a fire or bomb or something (no one knew yet) at the Pentagon.
I stopped into an office with a TV and watched about 15 seconds of CNN, which was showing smoke with what looked like the Old Executive Office Building in front, which scared us all even more, since that's even closer to us.
The next thing I knew, there were people running in the halls saying that the building was supposed to be evacuated. I hadn't even made it to my desk yet, but just turned around and walked back to the Metro. The streets were surreal, some people were obviously trying to get out of there (but everyone was relatively calm), while others (mostly tourists) were just standing around. There was an almost-constant stream of police cars, black secret service SUVs, and so on, going back and forth on Pennsylvania Ave, so I was hearing sirens for my whole 10 minute walk to the Metro. It didn't feel real, but it sure seemed to be.
I also kept trying to bring up cnn.com on my phone as I walked, but got nowhere. I also tried calling other coworkers in the building to make sure they'd heard of the evacuation, but again, the cells were jammed with the call volume. I did get cnn.com up just before I got to the Metro, but could only see the breaking story of something going on at the state department, and then they were unreachable again.
The worst part was that I still didn't really know any details and had heard lots of rumors. Eventually I was able to bring up cnn.com half the time as I rode and get the basic story, and then one-line "breaking" items that just kept piling up:
Some of those turned out to be false (though even now I keep hearing that there were incidents at the State Dept and the Capital Building, but no details), but the sense of dread at just seeing one horrifying one-liner after another was really scary.
By that point I'd gotten back to my apartment and stared at the TV for the next 5 or 6 hours. The worst part was the the lack of information downtown, and the complete sense of fear, uncertainty, and panic, and that everything had suddenly changed.
Looking at the NYC skyline this morning was horrifying. I first learned of the attack on the radio, I was in shock and couldn't believe it...
Until I looked across the water and saw a huge cloud of smoke covering the area where the WTC once stood. It was a utterly eerie sight.
So do international flights to and from the US. That domestic flights don't is, sadly, the flaw in the plan.
If it ain't broke, you need more software.
A mirror of this site should be online in a few minutes soon here (pardon the current mess).
Got Rhinos?
The two strongest precautions I've seen suggested that could be taken by airlines are firstly, an armed presence on each plane. Secondly, a segregated cockpit. Firstly, if an officer were so trained in the special circumstances of having a firearm in an airplane present, all the cardboard cutters in the world wouldn't have meant the successful capture of a plane. Secondly, a segregated cockpit would indeed leave the pilot with a tough decision, if the lives of his crew and passengers were at risk, and yesterday I would have probably put my mind towards some other solution, however today's events have made an irrefragable fact that the numbers on board, no matter their number, must be risked and sacrificed, if neccesary, if it means avoiding something even shallowly resembling today's Events. The pilot should not have the vulnerability, nor should he have the power to make the choice between a slaughtered cabin and an annihilated ground-target. If you take the choice away from the pilot, as well as make the cockpit impenetrable, hijacking would not have the appeal, no the deathtoll, as it did today. If anyone can point out an inconsistency, don't hesitate to tear me up. -Steve
I was having breakfast at a Cafe just above the PATH station. About three stories underground directly under WTC 1, the "north tower" that was the first one struck. I thought it was a train derailing or hitting a wall and I quickly picked up my juice and walked toward the escalators. As I stood up the fire alarms went off, looking up I saw what I thought was smoke. (There was renovation down there, it was probably just plaster dust kicked up by the impact.) Four cops bolted toward the escalators shouting "out of the way!"
When I got to the top of the escalators there were at least two cops directing people out of the building, not with "Stay Calm, go slow" but with "Keep it moving, Faster!" I heard another cop, as I got near a side exit I don't normally use, yelling at a security guard, "It wasn't a BOMB! It was an airplane!" I was thinking that was spin control or something. I stepped outside and there was a smattering of debris. It looked like a vacant lot around an abandoned building, cinder block-like debris. It took me five seconds to realize that that meant I probably should be walking faster, it seemed to take other people a lot more time to realize.
When I got across the street I looked up and saw about 2/3 or the way up the north side that the WTC was on fire, from corner to corner, in an oval reaching two or three stories down and five or six up. Not a lot of smoke, but a wall of fire. I walked around East toward the subway I use, and looked up to see that the East side was almost identically damaged, but with less damage. Sheets of ash were floating down like a hundred giants' notebooks had been ripped apart and thrown to the wind. I got about a block away and stood (next to the cemetary at the oldest church in NYC) looking up. I was thinking that I needed to get to work and start making phone calls that I was okay, but I was rivited. After about five minutes I saw a body falling from the tower and I walked, shaking, to the 4-5 train which I took on the 20 minute trip uptown.
When I got off at 60th street, 80 blocks away, I could see a dense clouds of smoke. There is a brokerage downstairs from my office, and I stopped to watch some footage. People said "A second plane hit the WTC" on TV, which I didn't believe. They showed the footage and it was horrifying.
A friend and I were IMing (phones were down, but no problem with the internet, other than to news sites.) At one point she said "You have no idea how strange the skyline looks with only one tower!" She apparently had an amazing view of the scene.
Can someone please explain to me the people that were cheering in the streets? Wow, that made my blood boil.
Do they fully understand what happened? Surely, by their own standards those people were good people and wouldn't wish the death of thousands of innocent people would they?
If we retaliate by leveling their countries, are we any better than them? I'm kind of split right now, but I think Bush did the right thing by warning countries that harbored terrorists that they were in danger.
We should go get them and make them pay tenfold. That's what we did to Japan and look at how well Japan came back with a civilized government and people.
Personally, I'm wondering if tomorrow could possibly be the last day on earth? All it would take is a full scale nuclear war. Send one nuke and everyone retailiates. Is it anymore improbable than two planes hitting two towers of the WTC?
I'm glad to see our nation uniting and that people are willing to help by giving blood and saying prayers, but one thing that disturbs me (and I'm not trying to troll here) is why are they only trusting in God now in the time of trouble? Will God even hear the prayers of people that have been living their lives in sin and not obeying him for years?
I don't know, but could someone with knowledge on the subject explain to me about the people cheering in the streets waving their flags? What is their mentality? Why do they hate the United States?
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
"It must have been Osama Bin Laden," one said. I wonder how much this person knows about Osama Bin Laden other than the fact that the State Department made him boogeyman of the year a while back.
Osama Bin-Laden owns an airfield in Afghanistan where pilots are trained on jumbo jets for terrorist acts. Did you see the precision with which those two planes hit the towers? I've never flown a 767, but I used to be a private pilot, and I seriously doubt that Joe Shmoe Terrorist off the streets of Palestine would have been able to take over the controls and fly these planes in like that. These guys had training in commercial aviation, and you're talking some big bucks there. That narrows it down to a select group of terrorist organizations that they could have come from, and Bin Laden is on that list.
I'm amazed at how easy it is to fly with a knife, especially one that's not just a swiss army knife.
Shirley lots of slashdotters have tales of being able to fly with full network-installing (especially cable-installing) kits in carryon? I imagine you can kill someone pretty dead with a screwdriver, if you're desperate enough.
You just have to profile right. I, the short female sort, never got messed with when I had a purse full of technological toys, but my tech, a biker type, didn't get to bring a Black and Decker *electric* screwdriver. (It was wise of them, but not for the reasons they thought... he'd be liable to use it to take the plane apart just out of curiosity...)
Slashdot's token middle-aged housewife
The terrorists onboard manage to swiftly disable/kill the pilots and put their man in the pilot's seat. (This is the most likely explanation; an airline pilot would have to know where the plane was going and what it was going to hit, and would have committed suicide or crashed his plane first since he was going to die anyway.)
Now, with a terrorist in charge, why wouldn't the passengers simply attack the men with knives and take them out? Simple. The terrorists tell them "We're hijacking this plane and flying it to <middle eastern location of your choice>. If nobody gets out of hand you'll all be let go/kept safe as soon as we land. But we terrorists are not afraid to die! If you resist, we will set this plane on a collision course with the ground." Furthermore, the terrorists can be as friendly as possible to the people on board to calm them.
In short, they lie to the passengers and make it sound like sitting back is the safe and reasonable thing to do. The terrorists have absolutely no reason to let the passengers know what's really going to happen to them at the end of the flight. And the passengers have very little reason to suspect it. When has this ever happened before?
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
There have been a few miraculous developments- one girl's father missed his train for the first time and wasn't able to get to his WTC office this morning. One of my friend's father was going to fly on one of the crashed Boston planes this morning, but got a cheaper tickets at the last minute. My own uncle had his 8:30am meeting next door to the WTC postponed at the last minute, and he saw the explosions from Staten Island instead.
At the same time, there has been great tragedy. The entire family of one student was on one of the doomed flights. Mass at 12 noon saw the Chapel completely packed, with a lot of teary faces, almost certain that they knew someone who died.
Today has been a surreal experience, like that directly out of some action flick starring Jean Claude VD. Let's just take this time to mourn.
++ Guns don't protect people; people protect people. Also, thermonuclear bombs don't kill people - people do. ++
You contradict your own point, when you say When that asshole shot up the train on Long Island a few years ago, he was able to reload TWICE before the people on the train realized that he wasn't going to spare anyone if he could help it, and jumped him. Why do I say that? Because it isn't having a weapon which would help in such a crisis, it's knowing what to do. If you must, call for mandatory anti-terrorist training -- not more guns. I consider the attitude of the US gun lobby to be insane. There ain't no scalping Redskins no more (just peaceful ones locked up in Reservations). That war was won long ago, but that was the reason for the oft vaunted "right to bear arms". (sorry, getting off the point)
One of the scary things about this is, apart from the sabre-rattling of the shortsighted George W., is the long-term effect this could have on US society -- a mindset of fear and rage and "let's get them before they get us" could be just as devastating as the eroding of freedoms in the name of the "war against terrorism".
-=- Say it with flowers. Send a Triffid. -=-
That was the first thing that I thought of...
"I wonder if it was a bunch of crazy Americans or if it was a bunch of crazy Muslims."
The only thing that makes me think it wasn't any Americans is because we look out for ourselves and it's not our style to do suicide missions.
However, the thing that makes me think it wasn't any Muslims is because they didn't have guns. I just hope that someone can bring light to everything and we will see justice.
I'm not a racist person, but after seeing those people on TV today cheering about innocent American's being killed, I've got to admit that I felt a bit of blood lust and wouldn't have had a problem dropping a 757 on them.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
You can donate money to the Red Cross Disaster Relief Fund online by clicking here...
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www.moneybythenumbers.com
Today went along like any other day in high school. Our school goes in blocks so at about 9:00 pm CST block 1 ends. Today, ironically, we happened to have a fire drill. This proceeded normally but when I went to my 2nd block history class I noticed something was wrong. Teachers and students were huddled around the TV mounted on the ceiling of the room staring blindly. I asked someone what was wrong and they said that a plane had crashed into the WTC and that the building had just collapsed. I didn't know how to respond to this. We watched the events unfold and saw the second building collapse live. By now other classes had filed into our little classroom, some kids were starting to cry. During the passing period I saw one of my close friends crying her eyes out because her brother worked near the WTC. My peers and I kept repeating that it seemed surreal, something out of a movie. This is the first really tragic event to occur during our lifetime. My parent's generation always speaks of when President Kennedy died and how they will always remember where they were when it happened. I can tell you that I will never forget how I saw these events unfold and that this is a story I will be telling my grandchildren.
For Canadians, visit Canadian Blood Services
I use Macs to up my productivity, so up yours Microsoft!
Hooboy.
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I just opened my latest PJ Scout email (I signed up when I left the airline (boy, am I glad I'm not there now) three years ago and have never figured out how to turn it off), and it started out like this, no lie, cue Twilight Zone music:
Here are the jobs that matched for this week:
1) Catastrophe Modeling Specialist
http://www.nationjob.com/pjshowjob.cgi/jjhl2688.h
Jacobson Associates, Job Location is Midwest
2) Catastrophe Modeling Specialist
http://www.nationjob.com/pjshowjob.cgi/jjhl2694.h
Jacobson Associates, Job Location is Midwest
3) Catastrophe Modeling Specialist
http://www.nationjob.com/pjshowjob.cgi/jjhl2695.h
Jacobson Associates, Job Location is Midwest
4) Network Administrator
(and so on with more normal stuff)
Slashdot's token middle-aged housewife
She stayed up to wake me up for my weekly 9:30 meeting (i didn't sleep until 3am). At about 8:30 CST she woke me up and told me
"A plane just crashed into one of the twin towers"
i'm like, "Whhaat?" (just waking up w/ no sleep)
she turns on _any_channel_ on the little tv on top of my dresser, which only gets bad reception of network channels. I saw the two building in flames, i just laid there stunned. about 5 min latter we got news that the pentagon was hit as well. 30 min latter we saw the first building fall, my girl friend shoke in fear.
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this is my sig.
Perhaps this also needs to be said:
"I fear that we have done nothing but awoken a sleeping giant."
--Isoroku Yamamoto, WW2 Japanese General; accuracy of this quote is suspect
"Nekubi o kaite was ikenai" ("It does not do to slit the throat of a sleeping man.")
-- Actual quote
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
I'm assuming that the United States is in the right and the people cheering on TV are in the wrong. Hopefully that's a valid assumption.
The way I see it we only have a few options:
1. Kill them all.
2. Try to wait it out and hope that they don't keep attacking.
3. Take out their leaders.
What else can we do? If we take out their leaders, won't new ones just step up to bat, possibly more ignorant than the original?
If we level them they will hate us even more for the short term. Maybe they'd love us for it in the long run.
Do we have the capability to level them without nuclear power?
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
There ain't no scalping Redskins no more (just peaceful ones locked up in Reservations). That war was won long ago, but that was the reason for the oft vaunted "right to bear arms".
Hate to jump into a tangent like this, but that is a bit off. Read the papers and journals of the founding fathers. They express fear and concern about a federal government growing too strong, and the Second Amendment is one of the primary checks against the that happening. Many of the men who drafted the Bill of Rights argued about the first and second Amendments, not about their validity or neccesity, but about their order. The Rights acknowledged as belonging to the People against the Gorvernment by the Second Amendment are what protect the Rights acknowledged by all the other Amendments, and as such many felt that the right to "Keep and Bear Arms" without infringement should be the First on the list.
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"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Okay then, how about this:
Should we be giving the Jews money when that will be seen as entering a 3,300 year-old conflict?
On this particular issue they're both nuts! They've been killing each other since the time of the Pharoahs! What does this have to do with the U.S.? Do we walk into bars and take part in any fight that is happening there?
The U.S., and all those who hate violence, should take very strong action. But the action must be designed to cure the problem of highly-conflicted, mentally de-centered people. Whatever that is, it must be more sophisticated than violence.
Bush's education improvements were
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
I think we're going to lay waste to the middle east.
I think Bush will do it right this time.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
Any country that harbors them is as good as the terrorist themselves right?
What benefit do they have to protect terrorists?
What stops a government from forming terrorist groups and harboring them so that they can attack us without retaliation?
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
When we cheered over here, it wasn't because innocent civilians were killed, it was because we were beating Saddam. (sp?)
They were shouting "Praise god" correct? What exactly were they cheering for? Who is their enemy? George Bush? Innocent Americans?
Maybe you are right and there is no difference, but I kind of still feel like there is a big difference.
What 'god' do they serve? I've heard people claim that their 'god' and our almighty God are the same being but after today I definately am convinced that they are not.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
New York firefighters, impelled by instinct and training, rushed to the World Trade Center yesterday to evacuate victims. Then the buildings fell down. The firefighters never came out.
More than 100 were unaccounted for, possibly making this the worst disaster in the New York Fire Department's history, explosions having collapsed the two main towers onto the first wave of rescuers as they snaked through stairwells and hallways. In the tumult, the temporary command center set up on a nearby street to deal with the calamity was buried in a rolling wave of concrete chunks.
Among those who died there were Chief of Department Peter J. Ganci, and First Deputy Fire Commissioner William M. Feehan. Also killed was one of the department's Roman Catholic chaplains, Michael F. Judge, who had rushed to the scene to comfort victims.
There was no trace of three of the fire department's most elite units, Rescues 1, 2 and 4, officials said last night.
A police official said last night that some officers at the scene were also unaccounted for, but "we don't have numbers." The official denied reports of 60 missing officers from the department's Emergency Services Unit, and 18 from the Brooklyn North Task Force.
Police officials said that as the day unfolded, several officers who had been presumed lost had surfaced. "The numbers are not that extravagant," said Assistant Chief Thomas P. Fahey. As night deepened, officials were able to bring in cranes and heavy shovels to begin moving rubble in hopes of finding survivors. At the same time, they had to contend with several fires that were still burning in adjacent buildings, officials said.
But hours earlier, the notion of a rescue effort seemed remote.
"We will be lucky if we don't lose 200 or 300 guys," said Michael Carter, the vice president of the Uniformed Firefighters Association, who was on the scene. "There are entire companies we can't find. At this point, it's less of a firefighting operation and more like a war."
Like dazed and bloodied soldiers, thousands of firefighters and police officers wandered helplessly throughout the afternoon and evening on the West Side Highway, blocked by the danger of further catastrophe from attempting to enter the scene. Officials feared the collapse of 7 World Trade Center, another high-rise burning in the complex. It finally fell in the early evening.
By 9 a.m., about 200 firefighters had already arrived at the scene, many of them racing up stairways to reach people trapped on the upper floors, fire officials said. Many of the rescuers were from six-person units that specialize in building collapses, and many are now missing, presumed to have died when the buildings collapsed.
Marite Anez, who was working in an office on the 87th floor of 1 World Trade Center, said that as she and hundreds of others scrambled down stairways, she passed many firefighters climbing up.
When she reached the first floor, she said, the building collapsed. "You couldn't see anything," she said. "That's when everyone panicked. Everyone was pushing. The fire people gave us light, showed us the way out. The ones who were going up, I'm sure they died."
Edward Fahey, among the first firefighters to arrive, said he had to dodge bodies that were being propelled from windows on the upper floors.
Robert Byrne, from a fire company on Houston Street, said he was on the 30th floor when the second plane hit. "We were trying to evacuate civilians," he said. "The hallways were filled with dust and smoke. The whole building was shaking. We feared it would collapse, and the chief said to get the hell out of there."
Like many survivors, Mr. Byrne seemed oblivious to the soot and dust that covered his body. He stared blankly and spoke haltingly.
"I managed to get out of the building just a few seconds before it collapsed," he said. "I hugged the wall with a couple of people. We got very lucky. I don't know what happened to the company. Just me and the lieutenant got out."
From the beginning, the city's emergency response was hampered. Soon after the first plane hit, the command center for the Office of Emergency Management at 7 World Trade Center was evacuated.
Fire officials set up a mobile unit outside the complex, on Vesey Street, but that was destroyed when the buildings came down. After that, fire officials moved their command post to a firehouse in Greenwich Village, at Houston Street and Avenue of the Americas.
There were conflicting reports about whether people in the second building were told to evacuate after the first tower was hit. Several people said they heard an annoucement over the building's public address system saying they should stay put, and that the building was secure. Others said they did not hear any announcements.
One former Port Authority official said that according to procedures drawn up with the Fire Department, evacuations would only be conducted on the floors immediately above and below the fire. With a capacity of 50,000 workers, simultaneous evacuation could lead to chaos, the former official said.
For many, the only help had to come from colleagues and others who were fleeing.
A woman who worked for Morgan Stanley on the 64th floor of Tower 2 -- able to walk only with crutches -- was carried down by fellow employees. "It was incredibly difficult," said the woman, who asked that her name not be used. "They had me over their shoulder for 5 or 10 flights and just couldn't do it."
Another co-worker she knew only as Louis came upon the struggling group, lifted the woman to his shoulder and carried her by himself, she said, adding that the temperature in the stairwell was at least 90 degrees.
At about the 15th or 20th floor, the woman recalled, a security guard said they were out of danger, and urged Louis to leave the woman and continue on his own. Louis refused.
"He carried me down all 54 flights, and then out of the building," she said, "all the way to the E.M.T. guys, and he stuck with me until we got one who said I could go in an ambulance."
After the first building collapsed, people began looking everywhere for survivors amid the rubble. Flames popped out of an ambulance; taxis slammed into buildings. One man walked around calling out, "Is anyone there? Show me an arm. Show me an arm." He got no response.
Someone asked a firefighter, "Is there anything I can do?"
"There's nothing anybody can do," the firefighter replied. "There's nothing anybody can do."
Firefighters appeared utterly dejected and dumbfounded, standing around with their hands on their hips.
Mike Fitzpatrick, 38, said he and seven other firefighters were in the lobby of the first building to collapse when one became trapped. They had begun trying to cut him out when the second building collapsed, and they couldn't get hear him anymore. Then they had to leave.
"We stayed because one of our officers was trapped," he said. "We were trying to dig him out -- we were trying to dig him out. He was alive. It collapsed on him."
By 11 a.m., hundreds of dazed firefighters were on the scene. Many were on their knees; some were crying, their heads in their hands, sitting on piles of debris.
No one raced toward the wreckage, afraid that more would fall. Some called their families on borrowed cell phones.
"I love you too," one said. "I'll come home safe -- don't worry."
A sea of firefighters and police officers slumped against building or sat dejectedly on the West Side Highway for most of the afternoon. Many refused to talk. Many were in tears.
Lines of fire trucks and other emergency vehicles sat covered with a thick coating of dust and office papers that had floated out of the sky. They had come from Passaic, N.J., Hicksville, N.Y., all over the region, but mostly they had to sit and wait.
Frank Carino, 36, a New York firefighter, said he had tried to rescue men on the seventh and eighth floors of one building but the ladder of his aerial truck did not reach high enough. "They had broken the windows and they were yelling out at us the stairways were on fire," he said. "One of the men was using a megaphone." He added that he believed the two were rescued by firefighters within the building.
Another firefighter, who declined to give his name, knelt on the asphalt, a towel over his shoulder and his eyes bloodshot.
"I saw at least 10 people jump," he said. "I heard even more than that land and crash through the glass ceiling in the atrium. We could hear them crash. We thought the roof was crashing down but then we looked up and saw that people were falling through the glass. Some people fell right onto the pavement." He stopped, unable to continue talking.
He said he entered the lobby of 2 World Trade Center with his company, but was immediately blown across the lobby. "We did our best to crawl out," he said. "My company is still missing two guys. They went back in to help people."
By early evening, hundreds of firefighters stood and watched as ladder trucks poured water onto sections of the towers still belching black smoke. The sense of shock and urgency of earlier in the day was gone. As daylight faded, a handful of firefighters, constructions workers and police officers still scrambled over the rubble with flashlights, but found the same thing as teams earlier in the day -- no sounds, no voices, little sign of life.
The three blocks of Church Street that border the World Trade Center were lined with the burnt hulks of ambulances, fire trucks and police cars left where their drivers had abandoned them.
At the corner of Liberty and Church Streets, a five-story section of the top of a building loomed over the road, causing firefighters to stare anxiously above them as they walked below. A New York State flag still flew in front of 7 World Trade Center but the building was a blackened mass. Six inches of ash and office paper covered the graves at the St. James Cathedral, across the street from the towers.
The chaplain who died, Father Judge, 68, was found by firefighters on the street along with his driver. They recognized him and took him to St. Peter's Church on Barclay Street, where they laid his body at the altar. "The church was there and they figured it was a safe place to put him," said Brother Thomas Cole of the St. Francis Friary on 31st Street, where Father Judge lived.
His body, wrapped in sheets, was later moved to the empty firehouse across the street from the friary. Later, two dozen friars and firefighters, some weeping, held an impromptu service for him there, reciting the blessing of St. Francis: "May the Lord bless you and keep you and show his face to you, and have mercy on you."
Brother Cole said that Father Judge's morning prayer had been for "peace and joy in our city."
Rabbi Joseph Potasnik, also a Fire Department chaplain, recalled that Father Judge gave a sermon recently, "a homily about how you have to enjoy each day with your friends and family. He was a remarkable human being."
When I got off the train, the second plane hit. I was looking straight down 6th and saw it all. By the time I got to work in Chelsea, the first tower collapsed, and then the second. As many people had said, it was just like a movie.
It was insanely surreal. I went from shock, to calling everyone in the world I knew and people who might need to check up on people. I managed to get out of dodge when the commercial boat lines opened up to emergency traffic.
A friend of mine was sleeping over at his girlfriend's house last night. Because of that, he was going to take the Newark to WTC train. At the last minute, he switched over to a 33rd St. train. He would have been going to WTC right when the first plane hit.
I'm not the best friend of police, but dozens of cops lost their lives today trying to save people's lives, not to mention the hundreds of firemen. I hope and pray for all of them.
Recent news reports are saying that the State Department intercepted communications from bid Laden's group about the attack. If it is true, I hope to god every last one of them is executed.
"Enough of this wretched, whining monkey life." -- Marcus Aurelius, _Meditations_, Book 9, 37
according to CNBC at 11:15 EDT.
"I'm The Bounty Bear. I will find him anywhere. I'm searching."
I don't know the answers. But there are some thoughts below in comment (#2283902)
Bush's education improvements were
Try and remember that the actions of a small number of people doesn't equate to the belief of the majority they come from. I watched CNN all day and I saw the same 30 or so people cheering over and over. It was the same damn clip over and over! It's bad enough that these idiots are cheering...sure CNN should show it, but remember, those morons dancing are just that: morons. They do not represent the entire population. Trust me. Not all Muslims hate Jews. Not all Jews hate Muslims. It just isn't. No matter what race/religion you come from, there are always ignorant morons doing stupid things and claiming that they represent the majority. That is not the case.
All races/religions have a few bad apples...and they usually end up spoiling the bunch.
I am neither Jewish, nor Musilum, but I do have friends from both religions...and we get along fine.
Hate sucks.
Just got back from talking to my friend who, in between downing as many beers as he could, told me about how worried about he was about his dad. Let me tell you what's happening with this, it's really odd for me.
First off, my friend, Adam, is a HUGE guy. Always been able to shrug off any hit he's been given and it's odd to see him so thrown off track. His dad is even bigger then him, one of the scariest guys I know.
Anyway, so this guy is a firefighter. Part of a group called S.O.C., which I forget what it stands for, but basically it amounts to him being part of a special squad, the first to get in to evacuate a burning building and the last to get out. So, as things go, the entire S.O.C. group that Adam's dad is in dies when they're trying to evacuate the second building and it collapses... minus Adam's dad and his best friend.
So now, every building that's burning and close to collapsing has to quickly be checked for people trapped in there. Which means every collapsing building is the possibility of his father dying.
At the same time, his sister has friends over. She's laughing and having fun with them, to which Adam goes up, threatens all her little boyfriends and tells her "Listen, the least you can do is respect the man who's house you live under." and she just doesn't understand.
Either way, man... I feel for that kid.
This is weird.
Worst of all though, is the glances I'm getting. With a name like Neema, it's not difficult to figure out I have a bit of middle eastern in me (I'm Turkish/Mongolian/Iranian) and people don't seem to distinguish the differences between me and the rest of the terrorists. I've already received glances and a few racist remarks... I'm interested to see what develops for me.
A fucking pizza shop?
This may very well be the bloodiest day in American history.
Pearl Harbor: 2000 dead.
Bloodiest day of fighting in the Civil War: 25,000 dead.
Estimates of the body count from this attack are in the 5-digit range. Keep in mind that about 50,000 people worked in each tower of the WTC. Do you think its possible that half of them survived?
If we ignore this kind attack, then why the fuck do we even have a military???
"Reactionaries must be deprived of the right to voice their opinions; only the people have that right." - Mao
I work in 3 world fincial center for lehaman Brothers. As a tek guy I spent a lot of time on the 40th floor of one of the WTC towers with our development guys. I hope they all made it out.
I took Monday off so was catching up on a lot of work when someone said they heard a boom. Figuing it was some huge truck accident I didn't go look until someone said that the top of one of the towers was on fire.
I could see from our window on the 7th floor of 3 World Fincial Plaza the top 10 or so stories were billowing smoke and some fire. From our side we couldn't see the gaping hole. Soon we found out the damage was caused by a plane, a small cessna we all though as most of us went back to work.
We fielded calls from clients assuring them that we were all okay and that it was the building next store that had been hit and not us. About 15 mintues after that we heard that the other tower had been hit by another plane, it seemed like a sick joke only it was CNBC telling it.
This time we could see that horrible damage done to the building. Huge amnounts of fire and smoke were coming from both towers now. We tried calling the people we knew in the towers but got no answer. Hopefully they were out of the building by that time.
My boss said he'd be happy to buy everyone breakfast, way uptown. Leaving the building we were directed to exits away from the towers. I made a bee line for the ferries which would take me to Hoboken. I passed people who had stopped and were watching the towers blaze.
I waited on a line to buy a ferry ticket and just made it onto a ferry that was leaving. I tried to hand my ticket to the attendant but he looked at me like I was crazy.
At that moment he could have named just about any price for that ferry ride I would have gladly paid it.
Leaving manhattan I could se at least three other ferries waiting to pick people up. I could now also see the scope of the damage the WTC had sustained.
It was bad.
Still I didn't think either tower would fall, hey one survived a bomb blast in 1998. Right? On the ferry I heard that the pentagon had been hit.
How many more planes did they have I thought glancing at Lady Liberty stading in the harbor.
Once safe in Hoboken I just watched the towers. There wasn't much to see really. Both towers cloaked in heavy smoke with flames visible. The streets of Hoboken were very quite. People just stared in frustatrion at their cell phone as they were unable to reach loved ones or friends still in danger.
Just then we heard the roaring sound of a low plane. Everyone on the street froze and nervously scanned the sky. Th F-16 was a welcome sight as it passed over us. Hopefully it would mean the end of kamikaze 767's.
It was on TV that I saw the first tower fall. I ran to the river and could only make out the one remaining tower through all the smoke.
Those Towers had seemed so huge and permanent as I passed through them almost every day. Like a moutain you could see the Twins from just about anywhere.
Then the second one fell.
The World Trade Center was gone.
Slowly I made contact with friends and family. A girl I know is a nurse and will probably be caring for the wounded for the next few days with out much rest. My cousin is a cop and is managing one of the makeshift morges.
I hope my collegues in the tower never meets either of them.
I went to the river last around 10pm. Most of southern tip of Manhattan is dark except for the light on the ambulances and police cars along the west side highway. The smoke still rises from where the WTC once stood and the fires still burn.
Over the next few day the fires will stop, the smoke will clear, and hundreds, probably thousands of people will be pulled from the wreckage.
I still can't answer the question of why though. For myself that is the most distubing thing.
What was accomplished this day, some few thousand Americans were killed, a few buildings destroyed? To what end.
Waging a war in a democracy is a difficult thing. Many citizens are appaled with death and destruction on both sides and pressure their leaders to end the violence.
Today's destruction diminished those voices if it hasn't silenced them all together.
I know this.
WE WILL find those responsible for today's destruction. We've done it before and we are very good at it.
And without those voices of compassion to mollify our anger. We will, one way or another end the ability of those responsible to duplicate today's actions. After all who is there to stop us.
I have no
Ive heard the buzz on the IRC channels about Nostrodamus prediction, "the third great war will begin when the big city burns". I dont know if its a correct quote or not, I've never studied the man's works. But I have a few predictions of my own about the very near future.
People are calling it an act of cowardess that the terrorists are not coming forth to claim responsibility. People are wrong in this. This is not cowardess, it is calculation. With no confirmed villian, there is no clear focus for all the rage and horror over all that has happened. That rage will find its own outlets, in a million different directions. It will begin with prejudice, racial, religious, cultural, political, sexual, take your pick, but the violence will begin where there are already established paths of bitterness and intolerance. An arab terrorist was named repeatedly over the media coverage of todays events. That alone is going to cause several thousand children of arabian descent to go to school tommorow to find other students lining up to assault them. People need to realize it was not the black neighbor down the street, or Apu in the local qwikiemart that was piloting these planes, but that is simply not going to happen. This unfocussed rage will spawn more incidents of violence and hate than a thousand terrorist cells could ever hope to. This is the true genius and horror behind this "act of cowardice".
Next, we are going to have people wondering how the terrorists pulled this off directly under the eagles nose. American planes taking out American landmarks and dear old Uncle Sammy not finding out until 2 minutes too late. How, with all the government monitoring and intelligence, did this get planned and carried out without them knowing? Hmmm..... a global telecommunications network, impossible to monitor or censor effectievly. Sounds like a likely scapegoat to me, no? Fingers are going to start pointing our way real soon, boys and girls, and the results will make carnivore and echelon look like an ameture packet sniffer.
Dear god.
I'm not sure if this is good or not. I hope it can help some people get saved, but I can't imagine the heart-rendering experience of listening to a man die in rubble over the phone.
"Enough of this wretched, whining monkey life." -- Marcus Aurelius, _Meditations_, Book 9, 37
this was an email i sent to a friend in college. i'm from rutherford, nj, a few miles out of the city, within view of what happened today.
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i'm sure that you've heard, seen, and read your fill about the wtc attack today, but i thought i should let you know that rutherford, nj itself seems to be fine, if not eerily quiet and quite surreal. on my way home into work around 8:50 am the radio stated that a plane had crashed into the first of the trade centers, and everyone on I-95 north (the road to the george washington bridge) came to a halt. i was at work for about 2 hours, relaying information (we were one of the few groups in the company with access to the web). around 11:00 am i drove home, and alongside the nj turnpike you could see much of new york covered in a low, semicircular cloud of smoke. people were actually parking their cars on the shoulders, stopping to stare at the city while their radios were on. a couple of eerie sights: I-95 N, when I came back down I-95 S en route to the turnpike, had absolutely no one on it. i've never seen it so desolate. all major crossings into ny were closed, and they appeared to be diverting traffic in nj away from the major interstates. i'm sure tomorrow will be a mess. a couple of incidents were, like i said, eerily close to home. the route 3 exit for the lincoln tunnel was sectioned off with red cones, although no one was even attempting to go on it. i took a walk with carrie this evening (i had seen enough). she said that from ridge road she could see the smoke cloud, and i was inclined to believe her from what i saw on the turnpike. in front of rutherford's city hall, a message on the main board asked for donated blood. i heard an airplane fly overhead after the lockdown on air traffic, and tonight carrie pointed out a few lights blinking in the sky. obviously, if they were airplanes they were military ones. it's all very surreal. i imagine tomorrow will get back to normal somewhat, but i can't imagine how i'm going to even get to work. we knew someone in the trade center who apparently got out safely, and for that we are thankful. while the schools in nj weren't closed today (they were in ny) i'm sure a number of relatives from rutherford school kids will be missing tomorrow morning. hopefully no other buildings will collapse like wt 7 which did early tonight.
chris
"Reactionaries must be deprived of the right to voice their opinions; only the people have that right." - Mao
Tomorrow is US pride day, everyone wear US colors (jeans are blue, everyone owns a white t-shirt, etc). try to be wearing as much red white and blue as you can. send this message to as many other people you know. Lets get the whole country into it. At least send it to 10 other people.
Yeah a lame mass mail, but I want it to be seen.
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Despite every other reply you seem to have got I'd like to commend you on your comment.
You make a post saying we've got to wait till we can find out who was responsible, and that making racial attacks against Arabs in America is going to solve nothing.
And you get attacked.
I'm not sure how a kamakazi pilot gets labeled as cowards either. The people who did this did it out of a blind sense of complete and utter patriotism. They were willing to die and kill thousands for what they believed in and the result, massive massive tradgedy.
Now if everybody else responds with a blind sense of complete and utter patriotism things aren't going to get any brighter.
The people who did this, should be punished and crippled to a point where this can hopefully never happen again.
But the key is "the people WHO did this", not "the people who we think did it, or the people that came from the same country as the people who did this".
Thankyou
It's turtles all the way down.
There were 50,000 people in those buildings. Nobody at the blast floors or above got out alive. The ones ON the blast floor were the lucky ones - they never knew what hit them. The ones ABOVE the blast floor had to wait an hour for the collapse before they died - they couldn't get THRU the blast floors to get to the street. The casualties encompassed half of one tower and a quarter of another - that's (0.5+0.25)*50,000 / 2 = 20,000 dead. Folks, this is going to be the biggest attack in US history, even bigger than any of the Civil War bloodbaths. WHEN TENS OF THOUSANDS OF YOUR CITIZENS DIE IN AN HOUR, IT'S NOT A CRIME SCENE - IT'S A BATTLE ZONE. THE CORRECT RESPONSE IS TO IDENTIFY THE ENEMY, TAKE THE WAR TO THEM, AND KILL THEM. THAT'S HOW WAR WORKS. THIS IS WAR.
Fuck you.
May you die a traitor's death.
"Reactionaries must be deprived of the right to voice their opinions; only the people have that right." - Mao
The solution is emergency override from a remote location for all aircraft controls. This would eliminate the threat of an airplane hijacking being any more of a danger than to the passengers.
I'd say that makes the planes into more dangerous weapons than ever. With remote control capability, an attacker doesn't even have to be on board to "hijack" it. Good luck creating a communications link that is so reliable it can be used to control a landing jet, so ubiquitous that tens of thousands of aircraft and hundreds of control towers have it, and so secure and so tightly controlled that it cannot be abused.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
The attacks happened around 11pm our time. Our Channel 9 took the ABC coverage. My original comment was kamikazes.
The scenes were horrific. The images of the buildings collapsing will stay with me the rest of my life. I alternated between CNN live, BBC World Service and ABC the rest of the night.
Our Prime Minister, John Howard, was at the Australian Embassy in Washington, D.C. at the time. He was transferred to a safe room.
Your former President Clinton was holidaying at remote Port Douglas, Queensland at the time. Security was increased and a plane provided at Cairns for him.
An Australian company recently acquired a stakehold in the World Trade Centres. Refer to
The Age and the SMH
May I say that America is the greatest country in the world? The incredible tolerance shown by Americans in the wake of the tragedy is remarkable and displays exactly why America is what it is.
Condolences to the friends and families of the victims.
I work on 14th and 5th in a corporate travel agency. We know within seconds anytime a plane goes down anywhere.
I went in very early b/c I was leaving early to pick up my son since my wife was training in NYC and wouldn't be able to get him. I had an 8:30 meeting with my boss. We were discussing things like who we were going to let go and such.
The building shook a bit. But there has been a lot of construction at Union Square so this was no out of the ordinary.
Then the door flew open. This does not happen ever. One of the HR guys says the World Financial Center has been hit by a plane.
I freak my Mother works in the WFC. I am running to my office to get my cell phone. I am going downtown. Someone, I don't know who says go on the roof. We have access to the roof. I went. I don't know why. I saw the gaping hole on the side of the WTC. The WFC is a foot ball throw away from the WTC. I am still extremely concerned.
The second tower explodes. I do not understand the other tower is on fire not the second tower. Why is this happening?
I formulate ideas as I run down the stairs to get out of the building. Maybe a wing flew off.
I get to the stret my assistant NW guy is standing on 14th. He doesn't come this way usually. Usually he is on 15th. He does not understand what is happening. He is concerned becuase he knows my mother is over there. I explain I am going to get her. A large, large NYPD person explains I am not going down there.
My cell phone does not work. I cannot call anyone.
I go back to my office an frantically begin calling everyone I know down there. My uncle is on the Brooklyn Bridge. My Father is MIA. My Mother has called but is cut off midsentence.
Several minutes maybe an hour pass the tower collapses. From 5th Ave it looks very much like it has fallen on the WFC. I am despondent.
Hours later bruised and bloodied with shoe marks on her face my Mother wanders into my office. I have everyone I know calling her. She just walks in. Sever minutes later my Father walks in the door. and a few minutes after that my wife.
The 5 of use (Wife, Mother, Father, assistant) leave the building and walk to the 59th street bridge and leave Manhattan.
This
Don't forgive. Retaliate then, and when they retaliate again, and you retaliate again, and it continues down through the ages, you will realize that the civilized act is forgiveness, and the barbaric act is revenge.
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. My heart goes out to those who have lost loved ones, but you will not add one day to your life if you allow yourself to be consumed by bloodlust.
I've already lost one of the best friends I've ever had in life, not to mention I've had to forgive my father for horrible abuse, physical and sexual. I know a thing about pain and suffering, and I know the one thing that heals it is forgiveness alone. It is the beast, the natural reflex of the animal to strike back. It is the Man, ruled by mind and not by instinct, that forgives.
I cant believe it.. it was really him..
check it out here
Heres a tribute to those affected by the tragedies. Note that in the picture, despite the obvious catastrophe, the US flag is still flying. http://www.wam.umd.edu/~stecher/
These guys knew exactly what they were doing to create the first unconventional building implosion of its type. Somebody put a lot of engineering work into this, calculating -- probably from public or stolen drawings of the WTC's steelwork -- how much steel (nominally fireproofed or otherwise) might be exposed in a fireball created by the ram-impact of a large airliner coming in frontally through the side, rathert than a glancing impact.
That assumes collapsing the building was the intent.
Another possibility is that they wanted to destroy a significant section of the building, its personnel, and/or its equipment and files by fire, and that a partial or total building collapse, if it were to occur, would be an "added bonus".
A fully-fuled airline could be expected to produce a several-story fire barrier, killing the people at the affected floors and blocking most of those above it from escape, as the fire and its heat and gasses worked upward, above the level where effective action could be taken against it.
You'll note that the first plane struck quite high. This is not consistent with deliberately attempting to collapse the building.
It might be interesting to identify what offices were at or above the levels of impact on each of the towers. (Though that would assume the planes hit at the levels that were intended.)
Regardless of whether it went down as intended, it certainly succeeded. Both towers and the adjacent "building 7" were destroyed totally. While the timing of the strikes let a lot of people be evacuated, it also trapped and killed a lot of fire, police, and medical personnel.
I understand that despite the cutoff of gas and electric to the affected section of Manhattan there is (or was) one large hotel on fire, and a large chunk of the fire department (including its top three officials) were killed in the collapse of the towers, along with a lot of equipment buried. So there might still be a "South Manhattan Fire" taking out the rest of the financial district.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
The US used to have armed guards on airplanes in the 70's. We just have too many planes to do this now... I say, STOP FLYING ALL OVER THE PLACE EVERY SECOND. Sure, every once in a while take a vacation, but for business start using the FRICKEN PHONE and the INTERNET. Let's SIMPLFIY so that it's easier to SECURE.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
Personal Experience at the WTC Site.
... slow running train etc.
... everyone
.. didn't feel a thing.
I work in 75 Wall (about 1/2 mile from WTC). Usually
get to work somewhere around 9:00 am.
This morning I took my nephew (21) with me to work. It is
his last day of visiting the US and he needed something
from me near my workplace. So we head off on the subway.
The usual... Missed a train
Now had a choice of taking an E train which stops at WTC
and walk or C train which leave me a few hundred yards
closer to work. Decided on the latter and we walking out
of the subway about 8:50 when I saw a lot of people
coming down to the subway. This was my first idea that
something was different (no one gets on here
gets off). Anyway when we went upstairs I saw a lot of
people milling about on the street and point upwards. I
looked up too and saw the building on fire about 300 yards
in front of me. It looks like I was under the WTC when
the first plane hit
We were looking up for a few minutes when all of a sudden
we saw a burst of flames and a huge explosion. People
started screaming and yelling. I shed several tears for
the people who would be trapped in the buildings.
I watched for a while longer and then proceeded to work.
I was making a few phone calls to friends when I felt my
building shake and another loud noise. Shortly thereafter
they asked to vacate our 16th floor and proceed to the
lower floors. I went to the lobby and when I found that
the WTC building had collapsed decided to call it a day
and head for home.
There was panic and chaos everywhere. I found that most
everyone was very courteous and kind. Civilians were
directing traffic and helping as best they could. I figured
that I could walk a few blocks and catch a subway home
from there. I ended walking about four miles to get to
a bridge where a friendly bus driver gave about 100 of us
a lift in his empty bus across the bridge. It took me
about a further hour to get home. I was strange looking
down at the skyline of lower manhattan and not being
able to see the WTC towers because of the debris, smoke
etc. I didn't know at this time that the second tower
had come down.
Latest update. I know someone who works in the WTC. I also
hear of someone who did work on the 104 floor but was laid
off yesterday and someone who just started yesterday. As
the days wear on I am sure that I will hear stories of
others whom I know or know their relatives. I have hear from
a friend that 3 people with young families had not come
home as of 9:00 pm and who work there.
It doesn't look like I will be going to work tomorrow or
maybe even for the rest of the week.
I will probably use the time tomorrow to donate blood if
needed. I will play it by ear since I have O negative type
and I believe that that is what they are short of.
I have given several gallons of blood over the years. It
is relatively painless.
It was a day I will always remember. Being under the
building when it was hit is a scary thought.
>Furthermore, the friggin' WTC is *not* a >military target.
>. I think it's time to take off the kid gloves >and do to the Mideast what we did to Germany and >Japan.
Hiroshima, Nagasaki were not a military targets. The actual largest amount of people killed during WW2 in one attack was in a civilian German city. England was crying for revenge after constant bombings of London, so they pretty much flattened an easy target. Bosnia was fought by attacking civilian targets.
This is the sickest peace time attrocity but the point is killing Middle East civilians isn't going to help either. Infact that'll most likely make their want for revenge terrorist attacks larger.
Also I think a Palestine splinter group has taken credit for this, but usually a few groups like to take credit for terrorist actions.
It's turtles all the way down.
Being a few thousand miles away from it, I can't say I was directly invovled. I was onsite yesterday, and did'nt get home until very late. Only having to do paperwork today, I decided not to set my alarm (I work from home).
What surprised me was the constant chimes from my computer all morning from IMs being sent, while at the same time the conspicious lack of chimes from my outlook giving me email. Somewhere around 9am PST I decided to roll over and investigate. Dozens of messages from freinds asking 'do you belive this' and 'oh my God' littered my desktop.
When I finally woke up, I sent a message back to one of my closer freinds asking what was up. 'Turn on the TV', she replied. What I saw horrified me. I paniced, and immediatly dialed my sister in LA, waking her up. She had no idea what was going on either, until I filled her in.
I finally told everyone I needed a few minutes to collect my thoughts. I live very close to the flight path of Sky Harbor airport, and as I left the apartment towards the store to pick up some caffene to put my head on streight, I noticed a conspicious lack of air traffic. It was almost eerie.
The clerk at the circle K was frantically telling everyone to 'buy gas now' before it was all gone, and I got a sick feeling in my stoumach. The worst was not over; nothing the terrorists could do to us will be as bad as what we do to ourselves. I realized for the time being anyone with Arab extent was screwed in this country, and would be blamed and persicuted for quite some time.
This feeling was compounded as I got back home and saw messages from freinds advocating 'Lets get drunk and beat up an A-Rab'. I walked to to the local bar for lunch, hearing all too often 'kill those fucking rag heads'. In the bathroom there was scratched into the wall 'Arabs go home'.
And while this all made me a bit sad, nothing disturbed me more then the feeling in the late afternoon of absolute anger. Seeing the anti-US dancing in the street, reading news bits from various mid-east nations feeling proud of the attack... it made me angry, and, for a while, made me want blood.
It's a terrible feature of human nature that we can so easily substitute sadness over something horrid like this with revenge. I watched Kabul being bombed and secretly hoped we were kicking the shit out of the bastards who did this, and that feeling made me feel a little bit better, if only for a while.
I fear the real outcome of this incident will be that we find ourselves to be nothing more then knee-jerk reactionaries. Don't get me wrong, I still want those responsible to pay for this, but I hope to dear God that we do things right, don't compromise our principals of justice, and can feel justified when it's all over that we did the right thing.
The Internet is generally stupid
Then, on the way to work I heard about the SECOND plane. I was a little confused (wondering what the hell is going on, thinking it might be a joke) when I hear about the Pentagon (my mother works in that area). I tried to call home but my cell phone (Sprint) couldn't get through. I then pulled over at a pay phone (Verizon) & tried to call home but I still couldn't get through. I had to sit down on the ground for a few minutes because I almost threw up. I got to work but was told that non-essential employees were to leave (I work at a Federal Center near DC). I could see the smoke from the Pentagon. My mother made it home ok after spending about 5 hours in traffic. She said that they were watching the World Trade Center on the news & felt the Pentagon get hit. I got home and have basically been either online, or watching TV all day.
My prayers and condolences to all those that had family & friends in the planes or buildings, and to the families of all the firemen, police, emergency workers believed to be lost.
we don't all live in the US
To see pics I took as well, go to http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~mphipps/
Real Story:
So I walk out of the WTC Path train at about 8:55am, like I would on any other weekday. Immedidately, the smell of smoke was obvious. I briskly walked outside (instead of heading to the elevator to the 95th floor), and found the streets covered with charred office supplies. Everyone was standing around, staring up at One World Trade, and the flaming hole that had been left by the commercial airliner in the 95th floor. I was standing about a block away from 2 WTC. We all tried our very best to raise our loved ones and bosses on our cell phones, but to no avail. In the midst of that confusion... BOOM!
A plane had hit the second building. I saw the impact, but could make little sense of it, since it happened so fast. Immediately, everyone ran as fast as they could. I saw a number of people not too far from me get hit by falling debris. It was tough to make out exactly what happened to them, but generally you don't survive being hit by anything that falls from that high. Anyway, I ran into the nearest open building. Turns out it was a high school. A small group of us waited in the auditorium there for a while. We swapped brief stories of how we came to realize that this horrific act of terrorism was happening right above our heads. About 30 minutes later, everything seemed calm, and many of us left the shelter of the high school auditorium. There were crowds of people standing just a few blocks away from the WTC complex. All of them were gazing at the rippling tides of flame and smoke coming out of the former symbol of financial and economic greatness. Then, with little warning, the entire top of one of the buildings (i think 2) began to cruble!
Everyone immediately realized that this was extremely bad, and a frantic rampage ensued. A massive crowd of people was barreling eastward to get away from the blast and debris. No matter how far any of us got, we were eventually enveloped by an incredibly thick cloud of brownish smoke and concrete. Visibility was quickly cut to zero. I felt around, (I knew I was right next to a building) and found a small inset in the front of some building. A bunch of us, say 10, wound up there, huddling in the darkness and smog. A man next to me noticed a glass door, that we tried to break with our feet. That didn't work, but we quickly found a brick and smashed the door. Once we got inside, the air was much clearer, but obviously, it was thickening in a hurry. One Asian lady had apparently breathed in a large amount of the overpowering cloud, and was not able to breathe. We carried her inside the building, and someone who had medical training took over trying to help her. She coughed up some very horrible things, and then seemed to die.
Just as this was happening, I realized we couldn't stay in that place any longer. The air had become just as bad as outside (in a total of about 3 minutes). Two of us began exploring and I quickly found a staircase leading to the main lobby of the building. Most of us went up there. I don't exactly know what happened to the people down below, but I believe most of them made it up to the lobby. Once in the lobby, we just hung out for a while. We were very unsure of what would happen next.
The second building collapsed. This time we were inside, and it barely affected us. We definitely noticed the gross air accumulating in the building, and outside it was as black as night. After that blast subsided, I noticed a small glass room one level above. I went up there and found all the executives of the company sitting around in this nice boardroom-type thing. I promptly used the phone to call my Mom and let her know that I was alright. Then I called my Dad and the House. I stayed there for about another 20 minutes, until I could take these conditions no longer (the smoke was definitely seeping into the building). I walked outside, and the streets were basically deserted. I had no idea whether there would be more terrorist attacks, so I just started running towards the Battery.
When I arrived there, I quickly noticed a tug-boat at the dock. They said they were going to Jersey City, so I jumped on. They were very nice, and gave me food and drink (I looked pretty bad by this time). I helped a few old ladies and whatnot get on the boat and be comfortable. About 10 minutes later, we left for JC. They dropped us of pretty far south in JC, and I walked back to Hoboken (cell phones not working, of course). I was much relieved to finally get home.
If the Bush administration calls something other than war then there will be a huge backlash against arabs and people of the middle east here.
attacking civilians puts you on the same level as the terrorists, think carefully about that
also make sure you know who the enemy is, we all make mistakes... America has been there before with The Unibomber
whatever the US decides, I hope they leave the nuclear weapons out of it
I was in the car taking my daughter to daycare. I turned on Bob & Tom here in Indy, and they had Dr. Will Miller on. I usually turn them off when he's on but the first thing I heard from him was that, "The country needs to recover from this shock, and regain its sense of security," or something closely along those lines. It sounds trite and immature now, but my first thought was that some celebrity had committed suicide, or that a "reality TV" show had taken an odd twist, the usual banalities that America seems to hang baited breath on. Then they announced what had happened, and I began debating turning around and taking my daughter home. When they announced that no evacuations were taking place in Indy, I went ahead and took her to school. It sounded fishy to me that NOTHING was happening downtown, but I decided that if things were not to the point of evacuation in "target" areas, then I could take her to school. That decision tortured me all day, and still does. There were no attacks here, but my imagination and and worries are still in hyperdrive. I accomplished close to nothing at work, and am thanking God that my godmother got out of NYC OK (she wasn't near WC, but still), and that my family is safe, for now. Still doesn't alleviate the worry, I don't know that I can sleep tonight. Where is the next target? After today, nothing seems "impossible."
/.'ers in the Indianapolis area want to come? I'll be checking this de-spammified address:
BTW, I am planning on going down to Camp Atterbury this Sunday for target practice. I definitely want to put some more rounds through my M1 before I am really comfortable with it. Seems more imperative now. Any
die_goober@spammified.hotmail.com
for replies. I usually maintain a minor case of paranoia, and trips to Atterbury have a veneer of the same to start out, but we generally have a damn good time and strike up some provocative conversations with other folks on the range. We may be a bit more subdued this weekend, though. Still, unless circumstances intervene, I intend to be at the range improving my aim, and having the best time possible.
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
You are naive in the extreme if you think it possible to simply capture the terrorists directly responsible and bring them to justice, as if anything you could do to them could possibly amount to a just retribution for this act. Terrorists can only exist because there are nations that tolerate -- and even condone -- their presence, and they are amazingly adept at melting into the civillian population when they want to. (This was the problem Serbia had fighting the KLA, which was also a terrorist organization and not valiant freedom fighters, whatever their apologists may say.) Whatever nation harbors the party responsible for all these deaths is equally culpable.
You bring up the old saw, "violence doesn't solve violence". Crap. Learn some history before you get all sanctimonious about violence. Violence is perfectly capable of solving all kinds of violent problems if it's persued to its necessary conclusion -- as the US did not do in Iraq, Korea, and Vietnam, but did do against Germany and Japan. What are Germany and Japan doing these days? Are they notable for violence? Is Iraq? (And is N. Korea and Vietnam, at least against their citizens and their liberties?)
And the brethren went away edified.
I remember I was half-awake listening to the radio in my bed (you know, when you're kind of lying there trying to get the energy to wake up) when the newsman was arguing with someone about the lack of information about a plane crash or something. A few moments later, he said something about "two planes instead of one". That deffinitely got my attention. Then he added, "both World Trade Center towers are in flame right now". That woke me up FAST.
/. article: Excellent time to become a missing person. *Shiver*
I ran to the TV and turned it on, trying to find out what had happened, several minutes after the second impact. I told my father, who was getting ready to go to work, and then the rest of my family woke up, too.
I remember trying to find out what the fsck had happened, and obviously all of the news websites were overloaded... thankfully Slashdot was up and running (although a bit slow at times). I was switching between the TV and the PC, and I recall watching in disbelief as one of the towers collapsed. It really looked as a Hollywood movie. Then we started listening to the rumours: 8 planes hijacked, the Pentagon hit, Camp David attacked, San Francisco and Colorado, a car bomb in the Dept of State. An hour later, the second tower collapsed.
Me and my friends on ICQ started trading URLs trying to find out what was happening, while my family was trying to contact an uncle whose daughter was in NY on her honeymoon. I spent most of the day glued to the TV and the PC, wondering what was going to happen next.
Not even the news thay my city (Monterrey) was getting flooded after torrential rains could compare to the disaster in NY and Washington. Even the local stations split the time informing about the floods and the attack.
Our deepest condolences go out to the american people, from the people of Mexico (at least from everyone I know). I hope we can send you (if we haven't already) the rescue teams that have been in constant training ever since the Mexico City quake in '85.
Hang in there.
Scary signature at the bottom of this
Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earth-bound misfit, I
Learning to fly, Pink Floyd.
So... we lose 20,000 citizens, and 3 or 4 terrorists get brought to justice after a long and expensive investigation at the taxpayers' expense?
Seems to me that those numbers work in the the terrorists' favor.
"Reactionaries must be deprived of the right to voice their opinions; only the people have that right." - Mao
...and appease their demands if it's reasonable.
Slashdot clearly needs to add a -1, Pansy moderation option.
"Appeasement" only opens the door for more demands. It would be the foot in the door, the camel's nose in the tent... The only rational course of action is to make them fear us so that this doesn't happen again.
I appreciate your desire to avoid more bloodshed, in an abstract sort of way. But I truly believe that more blood will have to be spilled to resolve this matter.
Unfortunately, as terrorists are not countries with easy to find capitals and bridges and factories to bomb, this will be a difficult war to fight. And to fight it, we will need to lower ourselves to their level -- and maybe even then some.
No matter what we do, we lose in one way or another. I fully realize that. But if we are destined to lose, I say we lose with a whole lot of them dead rather then with them still alive and us trying to "appease" them. That is the death of spirit, and that is intolerable.
Were we just in killing hundreds of thousands in Japan with nuclear bombs? No, because killing is always wrong (especially against civilians).
If we invaded Japan, which was the other option besides the nukes, it was estimated that it might cost a million allied lives.
One million of us... or a couple hundred thousand of them. Hmm. Let me think about that.
I vote for us.
Considering the fanatical, underground nature of such terrorists, the only way to get them is to play their game. You'll need to bomb the cities of those that shelter them, killing innocents yourself. And so you lose there, to a degree, because you are "stooping to their level."
But you know what? Let's get down to that level and get it over with. Let's kill as many people as we have to in order to secure our future safety. Because the other option is to pussyfoot around acting "civilized," and "establishing dialogues," and that is the death of spirit -- a far worse tragedy for our society.
I'd far rather perform some atrocities as a nation and consequently survive as a nation than do nothing. Both are obviously bad choices. But you can recover from the first one, whereas the other is a real death sentance.
Very good point.
Maybe there are times when we just don't know what to do. The conflict is more than 3,000 years old. If it was easy to know what to do, someone would have done something already.
We should not think that every time we don't know what else to do, we should engage in violence.
Bush's education improvements were
No, that's self-defense. The presentation of one's cause through the terrorizing of others is terrorism.
To put it another way, if the people are unable to fight back, what is to prevent the government from controlling the news at $WEAPON_OF_THE_DAY-point, and extracting abject obedience from the people at $WEAPON_OF_THE_DAY-point?
But this strays from the topic at hand, even farther than before.
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Here's an e-mail that I just got from my dad, edited from all caps to pass the lameness filter.
i'm fine. this is al. was able to escape the devastation. it was close though. there were bodies raining down from the sky, people screaming for help and others running from shear panick. there was smoke everywhere. you could not see your hands in front of you face. i just come out of the trade center, was about to get onto the next train under the two building(twin tower number 2) when i saw the tail end of plane vanishing into the building on the ninetieth floor. i though oh geez some pilot doesn't know where he or she is going. as i looked up debris began to fall. i quickly vanished beneath the building and down the escalator. i was going the wrong way. i was going where bad things were about to happen. nevertheless; it was the place where i'd just come out of. train didn't take off immediately. we sat there underground under building 2 for awile. there was a second explosion. i didn't want to wait any longer, so i ran out onto the street where i though it'll be safe. i was wrong. there were concrete, soot, dust, white dust, and bodies flying all over the place. i looked up to flames and a gaping hole on the ninetieth floor. i began walking as fast as i could, away from the trade center. it was too late though. i walked 15 blocks to 14th street and immediately went underground again into the subway. i had to find my way out of new york city as quickly as i could. i caught amtrak going to new jersey. i hopped on it and made it out. devastated, shaken, scared to death.
"2) We give enough money to Israel so that they can wipe the Arabs off the planet.
"3) We stop giving money and let the Arabs wipe Israel off the planet."
Another thought: This war has been going on for 3,300 years!!! If they haven't "wiped" each other "off the planet" by now, they are unlikely to do it in the next few years.
I don't like any of the violence. But it is better to admit we don't know what to do than become violent ourselves.
Bush's education improvements were
I woke up to the voice of the bus driver as we came out of the battery tunnel. She said that a small plane had flown into the World Trade Center. As we made the turn onto the West Side Highway, people pressed their faces to the window to stare at the hole near the top of the tower. There was a lot of smoke, and flames deep in the hole left by the plane.
Okay, so someone flying a small plane lost control, and hit one of the towers. Pretty incredible considering there's water all around the tip of the island, and any pilot worth his salt would probably try to avoid such a target. I just hoped there weren't many people up there...
The bus door opens. I stop staring at the hole, and get off the bus with most of the other passengers. At this point, we're about 4 blocks from the south tower. Some people were playing it cool, as New Yorkers are wont to do - we'll just walk to the train and get to work. After all, we've seen pretty much all there is to see. Right?
A few minutes later, another jet roars overhead, and plows into the second tower. It looked kind of like it tried to change course at the last second - the plane sort of banked as it approached the tower. The plane semmed to disappear into the building, and a half second later, a fireball appears in it's place. People who were facing the tower turned and ran screaming in the other direction. I was standing there, like an idiot, totally agape at what I'd just witnessed. It just didn't feel real. How could this happen here? Did some air traffic controller screw up? Nah, couldn't be... Pilots aren't dumb enough to fly into the tallest buildings in the area anyway, besides, LGA and JFK are miles away, and no one could ever confuse lower Manhattan for an airport for christ's sake. Besides, this guy's flying in the wrong direction! What the hell is going on?
There's a few hundred people running toward Battery Park. Guess I'd better go that way, and avoid getting trampled. So I ran, stopping with some other folks occasionally to look back at the building. We get to the entrance of the park, and workers apparently from the Millenium Hilton right next to the WTC were crying, and shouting for their co-workers. Some people speculated on the types of planes.
I make my way to an office building on Broadway where I used to work. I sit and chat with some former co-workers for a while, and try . After a while, we head back out to go down to radio shack down the block for a antenna for the TV in the office - there's no cable, and we have no idea what's happening. We get there, and radio shack is closed. Oh well. On the way back to the office, there's the sound of another explosion. I stop, not knowing where the sound came from exactly - my first thought was a bomb in the subway at Cortland St., right under the south tower. Within seconds, smoke billows out onto Broadway, and chases people into the alleys and back toward the park.
We end up near Whitehall St. The subways are closed, but there's no way I'd get on one now anyway. Remember Tokyo? There's ash and soot everywhere, and I take off my shirt to cover my nose and mouth. It's not really helping much, plus the stuff is getting in my eyes so it's hard to see anything. We duck into a small pizza joint, where a few people are trading stories. One guy had just gotten off the train before the collapse. Lucky guy, because the train he was on stops right underneath the towers. We get some water, and the owner shuts the place down, and we head out toward the Brooklyn Bridge. The FDR was shut down to traffic, and people were packed tight onto one of the ramps. It looked like things were moving pretty slowly, so we took the long way. It's not that much further to the bridge when you walk past the seaport.
I guess that's the end of the interesting part. From there, I walked home. It's a long walk to Bay Ridge from the bridge. Some people were taking pictures of the scene from the bridge. Some other people were walking in the other direction, _toward the city!_ What the hell were they thinking?
Right now, I hear an occasional jet flying over. It feels good to know they're there.
If there was one good aspect of all this, it was the way New Yorkers came together to help each other through it. As we passed the South St. Seaport and Fulton Fish, workers handed out paper towels, napkins and held open water hoses for people passing by. It brought out the best in a lot of people, and it makes me proud to call myself a New Yorker.
Just the same, it's gonna be hard getting to sleep tonight.
This makes me think of the story of the guy who called his wife from Mt. Everest as he was freezing to death. I belive there were other climbers maybe hundreds of meters away. It's humbling and frustrating to realize that sometimes such seemingly trivial distances can be insurmountable.
From the coverage I've been seeing (and it's 2:23 AM local time here in NYC) there isn't much debris being removed yet - I think they said it was simply too hot to stay in long enough. Never mind the stability of the remaining buildings in the area. They've recently gotten out two Port Authority officers, but hundreds of NYC police officers are missing, as are hundreds of fire fighters.
I'm just totally blown away. I can't get out of my head the sight of the second tower falling - or earlier, from much closer, of both buildings on fire with gaping holes.
So you don't let someone take a gun on a plane unless they show their carry permit, for which they have to show that they know how to put the safety on, drop the clip, and clear the chamber.
Incidentally, it would take rather more than a hole in the floor to depressurize the plane. If a bullet hit a window, then sure, the plane would depressurize.
The idea of a whole plane load of passengers being subdued by a handful of nutcases armed only with knives is so absurd it defies belief.
In the worst case, if there's a fire fight on board an aircraft, everyone on the plane dies. We just learned today that that isn't the worst that can happen.
Next time I get on a plane, I want at least 20% of my fellow passengers armed.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I have been to the World Trade Center many times. I had clients in the building that I would visit whenever I was in the New York area.
Walking around lower Manhattan, it's hard to miss the towers... they're easily visible from nearly everywhere.
I would see them every day, in absolute awe at first and then taking them for-granted, as is so easy to do.
From this moment forward, every time I am in New York I will have a constant reminder of this day. Every time I look in the direction of those familiar towers, they will not be there.
I sincerely hope the towers are rebuilt as a testament to our resolve as a nation.
We must not and cannot let those who perished today do so in vain.
All opinions presented here aren't mine.
>And now JCR suggests that this person should've 'been packin'
No, I'm suggesting that YOU, and other *responsible* parties should have 'been packin', as you so dismissively put it.
You'd be amazed at how suddenly a raging thug can calm down when he notices that granny across the aisle has drawn down on him.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I was of the impression that El Al had never had a hijacking. It would appear that they've had *one* hijacking, and no more since placing armed guards on very flight.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
The point is that people cannot be thought to have chosen violence when they do not come close to understanding the issues.
Bush's education improvements were
It takes about 30 seconds of research to realize that jet fuel burns at 1800-2000F, and that the Boeing 767-200 caries 16000 gallons of it.
These people were not intelligent or sophisticated. They were merely madmen, who figured out that if you get on a big plane that's fully loaded with fuel, as it would be to fly cross-country, and you fly it into a building, shit happens.
Don't glorify the skills of these cowards, especially when any high school senior could tell you that this will succeed.
These people should be nuked back to the stone age...
The laws of Physics are against this. Nuclear bombs work on cities. In the countryside, a 100 Megaton bomb does surprisingly little damage. The damage spreads only about 15 miles from the center of the blast.
In the mountains, as in Afghanistan, the energy of a nuclear blast would be deflected upward.
Nuclear blasts also make all the air everyone breathes radioactive. Thus everyone is punished, even people who haven't been born yet.
"These are not people, they are animals, and should be treated as such."
The U.S. killed 2,100,000 people in Vietnam and maybe 150,000 people in Iraq. The U.S. has bombed 14 countries in 30 years, killing a roughly estimated 3,000,000 people. None of the people who were killed were in any way directly threatening the U.S.
Does that make us animals?
Bush's education improvements were
Right or not, the consensus at my local bar was just start with Afghanistan and see where it goes. If we're wrong... whoops, so sorry. Now let's get Hamas, and Hezbollah, and... f* it. Everybody hates us anyway. If they think we're the Greate Satan now let 'em see us when we do evil on purpose, and with the public's full support.
Keep in mind I'm about an hour from NYC; a few months ago I was working in that neighborhood. I have friends there, and I would glady see the whole Taliban extinct than see any of them hurt.
I think the terrorists are going to find this was a mistake.
You do not know who did this. Killing innocents is what the evil people that perpetrated this act did. Killing innocents in revenge would:
1) make you as evil as them
2) make the country subject to more attacks
Instead, kill the people that you know who did this, not just people who look different and have different customs that you do not understand.
Drinking doesn't help, I know from many experiences.
thenerd.
The camels are coming. I'm in love.
I wasnt there, but a friend was. His account, with names anonymized... hope he wont be offended by me posting it...
Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 11:02 PM
I don't think I've come to terms with what I have witnessed today. The only thing I can do to try to come to some closure on this is to try and document what I saw on the darkest day in recent history.
Today started out quite ordinarily. C**** and I were scheduled for Sun Fire training on the 20th floor of the World Trade Center at 9AM. Certainly not very noteworthy in and of itself.
I got to the office at 7. C**** arrived 15 minutes late. I grumbled to myself about being on time and missing out on 15 minutes of sleep, but I kept to myself. Traffic was horrible, as usual, and we made our way to the Path station in Jersey City.
We got on the Path to the World Trade Center- probably it was about 8:40 or so. Nothing to comment on. I hate the Path. Its dark, dingy, but C**** swears by it so I didn't complain. We exited in the World Trade Center station and I noticed immediately a strange diesel fuel-like smell and a haze in the air. I jokingly thought maybe someone was running a bus in the station. Now, New Yorkers walk fast, but I noticed that people were moving along quite a bit faster than usual. The transit cops down there said there was a fire, and that everyone needed to quickly exit. I wasn't too panicky, but I expeditiously made my way towards the exit.
We escaped into daylight into quite a commotion. We turned around and looked up to see a gaping hole in the tower and flames streaming out. Quite a shocking sight. We were forced a few blocks away where C**** and I were staring at the tower bewildered but not overly concerned. We were cracking jokes about the training being cancelled and missing meetings and stuff. I was thinking that I wish I had my camera to take some pictures. All the fun and games came to a halt when people started jumping to their deaths. I don't quite know how to describe what that looks like. It really looks like someone threw a large rag doll- it doesn't look real at all. After watching a few people jump it was then I realized that this was not at all fun and games. I heard in the crowd that a plane had struck the tower. Not surprising to me at all. I've been on the observation deck, everyone knows that you look down on the planes as they fly near the city on landing approach. Surely, this was a tragic and horrific accident. Too many damn planes in the air I remember thinking, it was bound to happen eventually. Of course, I heard the mumblings 'deliberately' and 'terrorists' but I dismissed those. You know how paranoid New Yorkers are.
It was about that time that tower 2 spontaneously exploded right before our horrified eyes. I?m only 2 or 3 blocks south of the tower and what I saw was like something out of Die Hard or Terminator. Trust me, they got the effect right. As we all stood there staring, it seemed like an eternity as the tower was engulfed in a ball of flame. It wasn't until a few milliseconds later that the massive concussion wave stuck the dumbfounded crowd and I realized in that instant that I was probably going to be killed by falling chunks. Everyone did the worlds fastest 180 degree turn and ran for their lives. I saw C**** slip into the building directly behind us. The door closed and was magnetically locked behind him. I pulled on the handle in a futile attempt to follow, but realized that it wasn't going to budge. Then I really thought that was the end. I ran towards the next building, which I saw had a little cranny behind a 6 or 7 foot tall iron fence. In an instant I saw my shelter from the falling debris. I was over that fence so quickly I don't even know how I did it. I fell to the concrete on the other side, and scrambled into the little masonry
shield with my back towards the Twin Towers. I waited for gravity to do its magic and bring all the deadly missiles safely to earth. I realized in my hiding spot that I cut my hand and my leg was hurting like nobody's business. I also realized that there was no reason that an accidental crash into tower 1 would cause tower 2 to explode. This was serious- if the intention was to bring down the tower, I would not be in a very good spot to survive such an event. Once it was clear that the immediate danger passed, I walked out of my shelter and turned to see tower 2 burning. Time to go. I continued south, limping all the way to the entrance to the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel.
I was hurting, but alive and far enough from the Towers to be ok. Next order of business: Get the hell home. How? Terrorists attack buildings, bridges, tunnels? but probably not the ferries. The Water Taxi that docks at the Trade Center was probably blown up, I figured, so I had to head up north to the NY Waterway ferry. I knew it was a hike but the most likely exit from the city to be unaffected. So I licked my wounds and made my way northeast, staying out of collapse radius for the towers. As I crossed the area directly east of the Towers, I saw bits of what was obviously airplane parts and some chunks of building. No doubt about it, it was an airplane. I continued limping my way northeast and then northwest, to catch up with the West Side Highway where the NY Waterway is. I?m not sure how far it was. I couldn't walk very quickly and needed to stop frequently. I tried many times to call home, the office, C****- without success.
I walked north on the walkway, parallel to the West Side Highway. I don't know how many hundred emergency vehicles I saw- they just kept coming. I walked with countless thousands of the living dead. I remember reading accounts of the Hiroshima survivors, as they made their way, bleeding and burned, to the river. I am the living dead, a ghost, walking silently away from the disaster behind me. I recall hearing a strange whooshing noise, and I turned around and watched the first tower vanish in a cloud of dust. I remember saying out loud something to the effect of 'Well, they finally did it, congratulations!' Not very poetic, I must admit.
It turns out that the ferry was the way to go. The NY Waterway was totally overloaded. So much to the point that the floating dock became unstable which caused a minor panic. Fortunately the Circle Line and other tour boats began taking on passengers. I managed to get on the second ferry out and made our way back over to Lincoln Harbor back over in Weehawken. I didn't care where it went, as long as it was in New Jersey.
Half way out in the river, we had to wait as the other ferries unloaded people. We sat dead in the water. The dust of what was the Twin Towers billowing out in the background. The eerie silence of no airplanes in the air. It was as if the world had died and we were in limbo. All I could do was bow my head and think about the countless individuals who were just killed before my eyes. And of course, how grateful I was to be a little beaten up but alive. I was able to eventually get messages to home and the office, I found out that C**** was OK and everyone was worried to death of course.
I've witnessed The Hindenburg, Pearl Harbor, and Hiroshima in one. It's quite a mind numbing experience. I haven't quite figured out what to feel. I'm not at all a religious man, but today, I prayed for those we lost, and I was thankful for my very life. Certainly, I've managed to clear my schedule- and certainly it puts things into a more realistic perspective.
September 11, 2001 is certainly a date which will live in infamy. I don't think neither I nor this nation will ever be the same
again.
Are they going to ban those too?
Paul.
You are lost in a twisty maze of little standards, all different.
I'm afraid that if it turns out to be Bin Laden, the US will drop a nuke on afghanistan, or invade the country.. I wholeheartedly agree with Dutch Prime Minister Wim Kok who said: "I speak out the strong wish that see the chance, especially now, to react with dignity to this humiliation. We must stand up straight for democracy and human rights"
What nobody wants is a WW3..
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
> Note that airlines from Israel always have at least one
> armed plainclothes official onboard. You don't hear
> about them getting hijacked very often, do you?
Correction:
You don't hear about them being hijacked at all.
"Fucking barbarians" are people who bomb or launch large cyclindrical explosive metal objects at innocent citizens of those whom they consider to be their enemy. Now how, exactly, do you want the US to 'retaliate'?
I don't know about forgiveness, but you could just apply the law to this situation - that's what it is there for. Lockerbie bombers - in jail, Milosevis and other mass murderers - in jail or awaiting trial.
I seem to be making a habit of quoting the Declaration of Human Rights here recently, but it seems particularly appropriate here:
That doesn't just mean citizens of the West or anyone you happen to think worthy of it. For it to mean anything it has to apply to everybody - yes, including the people whose rights were ripped from them yesterday, and yes including those behind the act.I did not suggest to take away people's guns, I own hand guns myself and regularly rank in the best ten .357 Magnum marksmen in the country, and I agree with you that stricter gun control would not technically prevent terror; no technical or tactical measures can do that.
However, my point is that at least honestly trying to keep automatic weapons out of the hands of children in third world countries instead of selling gun manufacturing plants on loan to everybody and his brother might be one step to save a few lifes in a third world country, which in turn, may lead to less terror in maybe 20 or 30 years from now.
A recipe against Governments murdering their own citizens is to get their responsible leader's and lock them up in a prison forever, and not to let them in power like Saddam Hussein for the sake of balancing power in the region and play games with them for a decade.
An international law and international courts IMHO is the best solution for that; however, the U.S. is the most important political opponent against such a solution and has even threated the international court to free U.S. citizens using its military if they would be tried. This U.S. "we are above international law, we are the international law" - attitude is probably today's largest obstacle to fight crime committed by people acting on behalf of governments.
Instead, the U.S. tries to be the Lawmaker, the Judge and the Police in one person, which alone is not a good idea. And keeping over 90% of the world population from participating in making these laws, and a not very nice track record of the U.S. as international citizen might explain the distrust in this self appointment even more.
p.
Without order, nothing can exist. Without chaos, nothing can be created.
That's why IDENTIFY THE ENEMY was included in my post. You think we are going to remain eternally ignorant on who four suicidal pilots able to get Boeing 767 simulator time were, and who they worked for?
At the outset I want to say that I sympathise with the families of the dead in this attack. I know a lot of you are going to flame me for this but the truth is that the USA had this sort of an attack coming for it. Consider the reasons below...
1) America now lists Osama Bin Laden in its most wanted list. However in the 70s the US ACTUALLY supplied him and his men with weapons - helicopters, Stinger missiles etc. At that time he was fighting the former USSR occupation of Afghanistan. In fact he was considered to be a friend of the US. In order to fulfil short-terms goals the US always arms merceneries in different parts of the world. Then it has no right to complain if the same nuts turn against it.
2) Lets face it! Israel treatment of the Palestinians is totally unfair. It has occupied territories which belong to them. When the Palestinians rebel the Israelis use Tanks, gunships etc to mercilessly slaughter them.(In case your wondering, No I'm not Arab)
But America continues to support the Israelis. Even in the negotiations America tends to side with Israel. In such a scenario its natural for Arabs to be frustrated with the United States and resort to things like this.
Maybe the American government should re-evalute its own policy before passing judgement on the Intifada
Fortunately this did not happen to me, but last year my father was killed by a psycho. A man climbed over the fence of his garden when he was ouside and started to shoot at him with a silenced gun. Fortunenately my father managed to get into the house and lock the door before he died mortally wounded with several hits in his chest, of which one penetrated his heart. The killer continued shooting through the looked door and through a window in order to kill my father's wife, who has closely witnessed the scene through the open, but lattice-secured window. She survived unharmed, but it's hard to describe and imagine the horror she went throught the last year after this event.
After a few months a suspect was arrested, who has yet to stand trial. The motiv is still unknown, however there is enough evidence for a 95% probability that this guy did it.
I had been thinking a lot about what I might do, of course I thought of revenge, and imagined how it would be to kill this guy, and what would be an appropriate punishment or treatment for such a person, and I imagined a lot of really bad things to do with guy.
However, the first thing that became clear to me was that by killing this guy myself I would become a murderer. Don't take me wrong, I wouldn't hesitate to kill in self defense or to stop someone who is trying to kill, but to kill someone if you don't have to is just plain murder.
I dont want to be a murderer; do you ?
I also thought about what punishment I would prefer for guy:
locked up for 20 years
life sentence
the death penalty.
I ended up with prefering 20 years or life, to give this guy the opportunity to think about what he has done for a long time, and of course to keep him away from society.
Nobody deserves to suffer from killing this guy; have you ever thought about what the executioners go through ?
And what damage it does to someones soul (emotional life) if he has to kill someone slow and intentionally ? How about the right of "Pursuit of Happiness" of the executioner ?
Regarding the "free room and board" I think that a country like the U.S. might easily afford that, and that the costs of an execution are probably much higher, in terms of money, and in terms of many human and social values.
I have seen and talked to people who served a 20 year sentence, and I did not fear any of them; they were just a shade of what they must have been 20 years before; and I talked to professionals working in judiciary, and they said that after 6 or 7 years in prison almost everyone starts to crack; there are very few that are either so strong or so sick that they are still dangerous after 20 years.
The real "punishment" component of the death penalty as practiced in the U.S. seems to be time in the death cell where the people are intentionally kept in the fear of beeing executed every single day by performing a kind of preparation ritual.
In case of terrorist who want to die you even reward these people, transforming them into immortal martyrs if you send them to your "hell", which is their heaven. You just get yourself a bit closer to hell.
p.
Without order, nothing can exist. Without chaos, nothing can be created.
Was shaving when girlfriend said "The radio says there's an explosion at the World Trade Center." Went to front room, saw flames near top of center, huge smoke plume. Switched on TV. Announcers saying it was a plane, but probably a small one, speculating that somehow "faulty airport radar" had sent it into the building - totally absurd on a crystal clear morning. Was turned away from window when heard the boom of the second jet hitting. Looked out to see small mushroom cloud rising from impact. Lose broadcast TV except for CBS station with backup transmitter on Empire State - switch to even more vapid newscasters now talking about "possible terrorist attack," as if there's still room for doubt, and also speculating about some flaw in air traffic control that just might be sending jets into the towers. The first tower falls, and a gray cloud sweeps through the spaces between the skyscrapers of lower Manhattan. The smoke plume is immense for the rest of the day, with occassional office papers falling miles away in Brooklyn. At diner for dinner waitress says because of a fight with her by phone last week her brother had not come back from Florida the day before, and had not been at his office in one of the Towers.
Okay, hackers, here's the challenge: Osama bin Laden is said to have hundreds of millions of dollars to pay for this kind of thing. Some reader here may know which offshore banks he keeps it in. Please, please let us and the government know, so that action might be taken against those bankers and the nations that harbor them.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
More likely they were just told to hit it dead center or thereabouts. It's not like highly excited, unskilled "pilots" flying a sluggish jet over other buildings could have been more precise anyway.
The author said this was free to pass on:
ON THE BEACH by M.J. Rose
Tod's Point - Greenwich CT-. When you are jogging in this 147-acre park there is a spot you pass at the half way mark when you come around a bend and on a clear day - like today - you can see the whole gleaming skyline of Manhattan.
Except this morning there was something that seemed wrong.
There were two smokestacks on the horizon in a place there never had been smokes stacks before. And it took a minute - a long minute - to figure out that the smoke was billowing out from the World Trade Towers.
About twenty yards up ahead a few people had congregated and I stopped to ask what had happened.
Their news was swift and delivered in short sentences.
At that point in time both Towers were still standing. And so we stood. All strangers gathered on an outcropping of rock, watching a scene that did not make sense.
And then a woman ran up and began to climb those rocks. She was crying and her movements were frantic. She could not get close enough to their edge - to the water. She was in tears. A few steps behind her another woman followed who tried to keep the first from climbing down the rocks to the water.
"But he's in that building," the crying woman said as she fought off her friend.
The crowd grew as the minutes passed. And some of us stood back to let the war widows past - you could tell who they were - the women and men who came - some alone, others with friends - who had loved ones in those two towers.
Ashamed to watch their grief, to see their trembling hands and smell their fear, I kept my eyes on the sky.
"It's collapsing," a man shrieked. And the wailing started.
In this suburb that sits on the outskirts of NY we watched the Twin Towers fall. But we didn't hear the sirens or the explosions. We only heard the gulls screaming and the widows weeping.
I live four blocks from the World Trade Center, and left for work to see the south tower crumble. My full account is at http://www.lilback.com/wtc.html.
>>The solution is emergency override from a remote location for all aircraft controls
>Good luck creating a communications link that is so reliable it can be used to control a landing jet, so ubiquitous that tens of thousands of aircraft and hundreds of control towers have it, and so secure and so tightly controlled that it cannot be abused.
What!?! Is this a lack of faith in Microsoft technology that I sense in you?
Those who would give up liberty in exchange for security and DRM should switch to Microsoft Palladium!
Got to my office, well outside of the washington beltway, just over an hour ago. The eerieness is just setting in...
Yesterday, the parking lot next door was empty by 1 PM, pretty odd but did not notice at the time. Back to full today.
The most eery thing is the silence out here now. As mentioned in parent to this post, we are on the approach path to IAD. We usually have airplanes landing at minimum seperation, jet noise all day. Not today. No news here on when airports will resume operations. Yesterday they said noon today, today they are not saying.
The Pentagon is open again today. None of our employees (just my group) that work there were injured, but some of their offices were destroyed either in the initial attack or with the fires that crept through after. Some had offices in the "B" ring. We are trying to make office space for them here.
One guy was unaccounted for yesterday. He had decided to stop by the office here in Chantilly before going to the Pentagon. Big bosses could not find him and he was right here in a cube the whole time. One of the DCS offices that we work with is missing 38 people. They had just moved into the "E" ring, it's now a hole.
The latest guess is that 800 people could be dead. Good thing that the wedge that was hit had just been renovated but not fully occupied or there would have been thousands.
Everybody is talking about our interesting stories in dealing with/reassuring relatives (mine in parent post), along with "what should be done."
Box cutters, knives and a few manuals, loud voices, turn off the transponder... I am amazed that something like this had not occurred a long time ago, but taken back a bit at the extent of damage that 3 passenger planes can do...
As soon as we learned how to keep the helicopter straight and level we were taught to point the aircraft at a water tower and fly to it (not through it). This was one of the first things we were taught in Army flight school, basic "driving" of the machine, then how to crudely get it to a destination. Hard to believe that it was almost 20 years ago, but that day of instruction crept into my head right after seeing the second airplane hit WTC. That is about the only skill these guys needed to pull off their attack.
Called in to the Army office that I worked for a few years ago, as a reservist, and let them know I am still around if they need any help. Left a voicemail. Their parent org was right where the big hole in the Pentagon is now.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
Offtopic: parent is not a first hand account.
Troll: another poster has pointed out that no terrorist would be in the area. If the police or FBI want such a thing, they will ask for it. In the mean time, you will be flooding already strained resources and sound like a crank.
Flamebait: the inclusion of such a trivial troll into this discussion is obviously infuriating, as is the belittling of principles. Posts like this and this show gnovos to be a flaming troll.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
My Name is Rich Dominelli
I worked for a reinsurance brokerige on the 50th floor 2WTC. Until last decemeber I worked on 94 1WTC. My company and its parent company occupy floors 50-54 in 2 wtc and 94-99 in 1 wtc.
Yesterday started as any other day until about 845 when we heard what sounded like a gust of wind hitting the window. My cube faces the harbor (south side of 2wtc).
Suddenly the sky was filled with paper, then flaming paper and other...things.
Grabbing the notebook me and 3 of the folks who work with me start heading down the fire stairs.
The stairs were virtually deserted maybe 20-25 people nervously walking down.
About the time we hit the 20th floor or so, the PA annouced that a plane had hit 1 wtc and please return to our desks and remain calm.
Well we were more the 1/2 way down so we decided to keep going and take a look from outside. Passing the lobby windows we saw debris strewn about and paper still flying but stil could not really see what was what. We were directed into the mall area towards the path trains and we had almost reached them when the second plane hit.
It sounded like a crack of thunder and we could tell a whole pile of stuff was hitting the courtyard above our head. People started screaming and broke into a run. Eventually we were funnelled into the E train platform and out of the chambers street subway entrance.
One woman was screaming she had seen people falling by the window.
Above ground and looking back we saw 2 firery slashes through the buildings and a ton of smoke.
No one knew what happened at that point. Then I found out that our building had been hit.
The chaos and fear that surrounded me that day was indescribable.
I called in last night to discuss the aftermath. It seems that all of our brethren who had reported to work in 1 wtc are missing. 1200 people in all.
Now we meet by phone and try to pick up the pieces. Both my companies and my parent companies data centers are gone. Our DR plans are ramping up. Who would have ever thought that we would need our DR for an occurance like this.
Numb and shaking in NY
Rich
There is no spoon
Just stuff I picked up from CNN yesterday ...
Jack Valenti and the MPAA are to technology as the Boston strangler is to the woman home alone
"Xinoehpoel" is probably John Ennis himself, who apparently does have some mental problems (I reserved judgement until I saw random references to UFOs and aliens...which was a bizarre departure from the rest of his already bizarre posts; drinking urine by the way, although it sounds disgusting is completely healthy, and understandable in cases in which clean water is not available, which probably wasn't the case in his jail episode anyway). Also his quote about being forced to breath harmful chemicals, in light of his refusal to drink anything but filtered water might indicate some obsessive/paranoid behavior. The events of Sept. 11 are probably completely coincidental. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if Bill Clinton dies in November, or if some catastrophy occurs in 2006/2007.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
Another difference is that few of the thousands of people killed yesterday benefit from occupation of Palestine. Asides from paying taxes, they have no part in that dirty little fight.
My brother in law missed this by a single day. Today, he had a meeting on the 58th floor of one of those now destroyed towers. Thankfully, he was not there when this happened, but I will never forget that he might have been there.
I'm furious at both sides of that fight, but especially at Israel. They so obviously have the upper hand and have been so ugly about it. Was this done by Palestinian sympathizers? That's hard to say. The same folks who assassinated their own prime minister a few years ago are every bit as fanatical and depraved as Yasser Arafat ever was. You know, the tear down the mosque and build a temple crowd. Nuts. This could have been done by the IRA for all I know. That does not mollify me towards any of these losers around the world that might do something like this. Their stupid little pissing match has just taken the lives of thousands of innocent people, one of who could have been my bother in law.
The people responsible for this are going to hang. After that, how about you do something nice for some of those huge impersonal black faces in the Palestinan Authority, and encourage your friends to make a fair and lasting peace? Surely, most of them share your horror.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Are you really proud that some assholes took everything from a bunch of redskins and called it america? Great achievement, really!
1: We were at and to some extent still are, at war with Iraq. In war, people die, some innocent, some not. Im sure the Iraqi people felt the same way about our killing them as we would feel about their killing us. And if they dont feel the same, then shame on them. In times like this we are more than a country, we are a family, and yesterday quite a few members of that family died. When that ahppens you mourn, and you wish to seek vengance on those who perpetrated the act. Its the same in any country, in any city, in any family, on earth. Thats a part of being human, when one of your own dies, you feel bad.
As for teaching the US a lesson, Youre right, this did teach the US a lesson, but perhaps not the one that the terrorists were seeking. They wanted to prove that the US was weak, immoral, and when pressed would waffle. They wanted to prove that americans could not stomach large amounts of casualties in the support of the ideals we believe in. The lesson that was taught, however, is the value of those ideals, and how in the course of defending what we believe in, people die, sometimes in large numbers, but to give in to thos terrorists, to restrict freedom in the name of security, is to become exactly the same as the terrorists themselves.
The U.S. response at the time of Pearl Harbor was to be the only country that has ever used nuclear weapons, causing genetic damage that continued long after Japan became a favored trading partner of the U.S.
There is no evidence of elevated rates of genetic damage in survivors of nuclear weapons in Japan. Sorry, it's not there and they are as healthy as you and me.
My second complaint goes to your whole idea. The Japanese are wonderful people who treat each other and US visitors very well. People forgive acts of war when all is said and done. Violence, justly used does not make eternal hatred.
The ususal petty trolls like this piss me off more in times when bandwith could be used to comfort and reasure people who have no other means of communication. Please cease and desist for a few days.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
This is an email I received from a coworker. She works in a building accross the street from the WTC. She takes the train to the WTC every morning.
Thanks Steve. Yes it was a very narrow escape for me yesterday. Everyday I take 7.50 train from Princeton to Newark.From Newark, I take a path train to WTC. Which takes me to WTC around 9 O' clock. Yesterday I decided to take the 7.56 to Newark that meant I took a later train to WTC which was the first one to be halted at Exchange Place, a stop before WTC. When we got out of the station, we could see one of the towers on fire and we were told that a plane had hit the building accidently and as we were watching we saw this plane hit the second tower and the tower exploded right in front of my eyes. There was panic, we were asked to clear the place and I ran along with others to the next station from where we were able to catch a path train from Hoboken to Newark. We were fortunate to connect a train from Newark to Princeton. Later we came to know that was the only train that came out of NY penn soon after the accident. Some of our friends are still stranded in NY. Had I taken the earlier train, I would have been walking right through WTC foyer to the streets as the second plane struck the building. I am bit shocked to see the horrible sights on TV and to think I could have been one of them makes me rather nervous. Shantha
Steve M
That's a funny abuse of language. Kind of like the correct truth.
I'm not sure what you mean by "Blacks." Palestinians are not called "black" in Israel. They are called "Arab" or "Palestinian."
I'm not sure what the exact word is either. A friend of mine who spent some time in Israel assured me that is what the derogatory term used to describe Palestinians translates to in English. I wish it were not so but I believe what my friend, who loves Israel, told me. She was asshamed, just as I am asshamed and enraged when I see Negros abused here.
The name is defining! The person you refer to when you say, "There is no shaheed, his 'heroic' face plastered throughout the Palestinian Authority.", is less than a man to you. Not even worth of a capital S. Try to see a person like yourself, regardless of the differences, rather than an animal.
When all is said and done, it's important to remember that when you are merciful to cruel people, you are cruel to merciful people.
Nonsense! There is no cruelty in mercy and no mercy in cruelty. Thoughts like that simply justify cruelty. It's time for Israel to stick to the treaties already signed and share the land it stole, including that rock named Jeruselem. There is no end to any other way, no matter how you try to correct the facts.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I don't believe Palestine had anything to do with this. People who still haven't advanced beyond the rock-throwing stage of technology are not likely suspects for this sort of thing.
There's lots of countries with beefs with America, some of them legitimate, but I didn't see them celebrating the deaths of American civilians, like it was a fucking wedding.
And I utterly reject your implication that Americans brought this mass murder on themselves and that we should back off because of it. If Palestinians really want war with the USA, they can have it. All the Palestinian hopes and dreams could be crushed in a single afternoon, if that's the way they want to play.
A lot of third world fuckheads think Americans are soft, that they don't have the will to use force. The truth is that it's just been a long time since any of them have done anything significant enough to truly, deeply anger the American people. That anger has been awakened. Trifle with it at your most extreme peril.
>Sorry you lost me for a moment there with that "By that token". If we are allowed to say their civilians arent
>innocent then how could they have targeted innocent people in the first place? Or does it only count as
>wrong for the first one to use this rationalization and after that it becomes a valid one for the second
>party to use?
Make no mistake, there's NOTHING right about this.
But the same logic that Palestinian terrorists have used in the past (Notice that I'm not declaring them guilty of this yet, just explaining the mindset with their past examples.) to declare ALL Americans enemy targets, All Palestinians can be, as well. That's not to say that I agree with that logic, just that it's consistent.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
>How are the "responsible" people to be determined?
We don't. We let everyone arm themselves or not as they see fit, and let the law of averages see to it that the nutcases are outnumbered. Right now, a terrorist can RELY on everyone else being unarmed. I propose to remove that assurance.
> Instead of arming passengers so that anyone can shoot everyone, how about we start restricting the weapons that are apparently allowed on planes?
We've already tried the "disarm everyone" policy. It failed.
Unless you're prepared to require that everyone going on an airplane strip and wear a hospital gown while in the air, you're not going to get rid of everything that could possibly be a weapon.
I have a Zero Haliburton briefcase that I could probably use to kill a knife-wielding attacker it I got a good swing at the perp's head, for example.
I'd much rather rely on 20% or more of my fellow passengers carrying a Glock and a 25-round magazine with frangible bullets, than trust airport security to fully disarm everyone on a plane.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Thanks. That is very much appreciated.
Also, I very much liked your story on that page.
Bush's education improvements were
I don't think you have been following the activities of the secret agencies of the U.S. government. The CIA has done everything that terrorists do.
For example, see this quote from the Atlantic Monthly story, Inside the Department of Dirty Tricks:
"We're not in the Boy Scouts," Richard Helms was fond of saying when he ran the Central Intelligence Agency. He was correct, of course. Boy Scouts do not ordinarily bribe foreign politicians, invade other countries with secret armies, spread lies, conduct medical experiments, build stocks of poison, pass machine guns to people who plan to turn them on their leaders, or plot to kill men such as Lumumba or Castro or others who displeased Washington. The CIA did these things, and more, over a long span of years.
Did you know that Osama bin Laden was trained by the CIA? See the MSNBC article, Bin Laden comes home to roost.
Do you think that Osama bin Laden is a terrorist? Then isn't the agency who trained him a terrorist organization, also?
Bush's education improvements were
>No weapons, no hijackings.
What a rich fantasy life you have. The way you cling to the idea that it's possible to ensure that nobody on a plane has anything that could be used as a weapon is so naiive that it would be charming if it weren't so stupid.
I have a *briefcase* that is more lethal than a knife with a 4" blade. (Zero Halliburton; give it a good swing and it will easily cause a fatal concussion.) I could give a good kick to the tray table on nearly any airline seat, and bust off a hunk of jagged aluminum that will cut a throat just as efficiently as a box cutter. Do you propose to remove the tray tables, and turn all the aircraft cabins into padded cells?
Would you care to extend your fantasy further?
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I have to agree with you. Too much of America is about Greed these days. In small doses, greed can be good as a personal motivator. Our nation appears addicted to it, though.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Please don't confuse an explanation of the violence with the violence itself.
Ask yourself, Why aren't Jews liked "so much" in France? I am saying it is because of the arrogance of saying that they are "God's Chosen People".
Remember, I am only trying to provide an explanation. If you have alternate explanations, please provide them.
You said, 'There are much less examples in History of places where Jews could live with Christians without being "wiped".'
There are many fewer examples in European history books of places where Jews could live with Christians peacefully. Don't forget that the Pharaoh of Egypt enslaved the Jews more than 3,000 years ago. Don't forget that Abraham, founder of the Jewish tribe, was a slave owner. He got the slaves by warring with neighboring tribes. That region has a long history of violence. Don't forget that the Jewish record Christians call the "Old Testament" contains many stories of violence.
Bush's education improvements were
See the latest version of the letter above at What Should be the Response to Violence?
One of the headings: "The CIA trained Osama bin Laden."
Bush's education improvements were
Get the difference? Broad > specific. Broad statements: there will be much trouble in your future. Specific statements: there will be much trouble on Tuesday. Broad symbolic statements: there will be four horsemen of the apocalypse in your future (four airplanes would be taken to represent four "horsemen of apocalypse"). Specific statement: there will be four airliners of the apocalypse in your future. Nostrildamus made broad enough statements that they could catch many future incidents. We repeat historical tragedies enough that he can be invoked in many times, on many dates. He's like the phony psychic readers who spout off dozens of common names as they fish for the name of someone you actually know. They play you like a musical instrument, watching for a reaction that means their vague statements have somehow provoked a specific reaction in you. Then they trick you into revealing a personal piece of information, and like a logical prestidigitator, make it appear that they have pulled a name out of your head, like a magician appears to pull a quarter out of your ear.
If you have some platonic idea of real vs. ideal don't waste your breath on me. Plato was a dolt. His school of philosophy was the major obstruction to scientific progress for millenia. Supernatural paranoia and religious belief are a delusion from which the human race is gradually awakening. I occasionally pause to toss a little cold water on those who are still slumbering, but I rarely get them to open their eyes.
One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on
If you weren't an AC I would probably have a better chance at this, but since you will never see my reply I suppose I post in vain. Show me, specifically, where a statement Nostradamus made can be interpreted only as a premonition of future events, and contains specific details that were impossible for him to know. And believe me, I have been inundated with Nostra-fantasy for over twenty years. I have enough familiarity with the technique to easily dismiss it as brain-rot.
And, buddy, I don't pray to anyone. We will get through this by specific acts of assisting one another, not by appealing to invisible people. Waiting for a divine intervention is waiting for a bus that's not coming. No one can get humanity out of its self-imposed messes but humanity.
One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on