Oracle Donates Software for Big Brother Database

8onal writes: "C|Net is reporting that Oracle CEO Larry Ellison has followed through with his threat, I mean promise, to assist with Uncle Sam's crimefighting efforts. "...Ellison said he has delivered Oracle's 9i database management software to a U.S. government agency for national security, but he declined to give further details, such as which agency or for what usage." Seeing as how he has already supplied the CIA with software, I bet it went to another 3-letter group."

Comments

Ellison's interests

[mwillems]

Seems to me Larry Ellison is being rather opportunistic here, plus, this fits in well with his world vision, which has always been centralistic and in favour of control - I remember Oracle giving me a presentation once about their expense system at Oracle: all expense reports worldwide! go to (and are approved in) one central database in the US head office. Not for good database reasons but for control reasons. See also the NIC (thin client)- central control, again.

Having said that, opportunism in the light of Sep 11 is not restricted to Oracle. Companies like Siebel, MS, and many others have also tried to gain market share. I am sure we all see through this.

Michael

Re:Ellison's interests

[bani]

Of course he's being opportunistic. Lots of people have been shamlessly exploiting the 9/11 attacks for their own selfish motives.

The white house is doing it, congress is doing it, spammers are doing it. I'm actually suprised m$ hasnt stepped up to the plate already...

Re:Ellison's interests

[carlos_benj]

Seems to me Larry Ellison is being rather opportunistic here...

A business that isn't opportunistic to some degree will fail. With businesses involved in disaster recovery for instance, not stepping up marketing efforts in light of 9/11 would be foolish. People's minds are more tuned to the message, as they should have been before the events. I think the difference between that scenario and what Ellison is doing is that he is trying to use the tragedies to create a perceived need for something that will be of little real value and might cause considerable harm. In short, he's not far removed from those collecting for bogus charities "helping" New York Police and Firefighters' families.

Re:Ellison's interests

[scottj]

I must add here that central systems are typically good for the employee. I recently left a company which had many different, regional expense reporting systems. On the occasion that I would perform work in a different region than where I lived (which, as a consultant, happened often), I would have to deal with tons of extra red tape to get my money back from the company. With one central system, work for another region would be no different from work at home as far as expenses are concerned.

Anyway, I know this is a bit off-topic, but Larry's not totally crazy.

Re:Ellison's interests

[dcocos]

I'd be willing to bet that anyone will be able to login with SCOTT/TIGER and SYSTEM/MANAGER so it won't be too hard to figure out what data they are collecting.

Re:Ellison's interests

[dazed-n-confused]

their expense system at Oracle: all expense reports worldwide! go to (and are approved in) one central database in the US head office. Not for good database reasons but for control reasons.

The Register has a couple of good stories about how this system screwed over two other vast enterprises that tried to use it: Marconi and Cisco.

Re:Ellison's interests

[Anonymous Coward]

You think Bill Gates is the evil one? This guy scares me way more than Bill...

Re:Ellison's interests

[gazz]

it's probably a joke, but M$ will cash in if ppl listen to this:

Subject: Fwd: Please participate - satellite project

Help me spread the word about this advisory from NASA. On Thursday night at 9 PM Eastern time, a satellite photo of the United States will be taken, showing our nation united.

If you own a PC-compatible laptop, NASA has requested that you purchase Microsoft's new Windows XP operating system and install it onto your computer. The process is simple and should take about an hour. It's Microsoft's best operating system ever and lets you get more out of the Internet!

Take the laptop outside at 9 PM, start up Windows XP, and hold the "Start" screen up to the sky to symbolize our new "start" at coming together and fighting terrorism. Visit microsoft.com for more on how you can eXPerience more!


Pssshhh, is all I can say (thanks to a speech impediment I developed after teasing some rather aggressive Gerbils)

Re:Ellison's interests

[Anonymous Coward]

Must be a fake. I know my Thinkpad T23 dims a little bit when I unplug it. I'd have to bring an extension cord with me.

Re:Ellison's interests

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is stating the obvious considered insightfull. This is like stating that it gets brighter in the morning and darker at night. Oh well, this is slashdot were the obvious is news.

Re:Ellison's interests

[MisterBlister]

it's probably a joke, but M$ will cash in if ppl listen to this [modernhumorist.com]:
Subject: Fwd: Please participate - satellite project

Its PROBABLY a joke? The site name is modernHUMORIST.com. Are you really that fucking dense? Neither NASA nor Microsoft had anything to do with this completely false spam email. You must be the kind of guy who opens email attachments and spreads virii if you're dumb enough to even question whether that is a joke or not.

Re:Ellison's interests

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

Yes, you'd be dealing with red tape no matter what region you worked in.

Re:Ellison's interests

[Anonymous Coward]

So, Marconi buys over a dozen companies and sells several division in little over a year, and the reason their profits declined is because an reporting system that hasn't even been rolled out within the company yet? (roll-out date is set for March 2002) And Cisco's problems with the software are (quoting the article) "strictly hearsay". Again quoting the Cisco article:

... one thing for sure is that even in the during boom times proper financial controls need to be in place. Technology, however sophisticated, is never going to be able to run a business alone.

The Marconi article also states:

Well, thanks to people within Marconi, we can tell you precisely what went wrong and why. It all comes down to the company's many acquisitions, a lack of effort at board level to find out what was going on and the failure of Oracle reporting software to keep up with the change.

I'd be willing to bet that the first two had a much larger impact than the software.

Disclaimer: I am an Oracle employee, but I do not work in the eBusiness division.

Re:Ellison's interests

[Drazi100]

not really, Bill Gates is more likely to succeed in domination. Their database is their only great product. and they overprice so I wouldnt worry too much about larry

Re:Ellison's interests

[Anonymous Coward]

"all expense reports worldwide! go to (and are approved in) one central database in the US head office. Not for good database reasons but for control reasons. See also the NIC (thin client)- central control, again."

The expense reports are NOT approved centrally. I (who happen to be in AU) enter my expense report in the same system as everyone else, which then is routed to my manager (who happens to be in HK), who then approves it. Further approvals may be required, depending on approval limits, but rarely gets further than senior director level (who happens to be in SG). As you can see, having everyone working out of the same database can have its advantages in a global copmpany. So implying that LE is approving and having control over the expense reports of 40,000 employees is completely wrong.

But at the end of the day, if he (or anyone else) wants to see how much he is spending and where, it makes it a lot easier if all the information is in one place (hmmm - sounds like a good database reason to me). And since it's his company, I guess its his right to do so.

Re:Ellison's interests

[Anonymous Coward]

Not virii. Viruses.

oooh! oooh!

[rewtbeer]

please let me into the octogon!! please!?!?!

Hmm.. how can I make a headline?

[jason99si]

My question is, did the XXX agency ASK for a copy of the software, or did Larry just up and give it to them.

I think its more likely that he tracked down an address and just mailed it out so he could get in the CNET headlines.. as well as increase pressure to implement his proposed system.

Re:Hmm.. how can I make a headline?

[Pi3.142]

No - I think he just did -


SQL> INSERT INTO ORACLE9I_SHIP_TO(EMAIL_ID,HIGH_PRIO)
SELECT EMAIL_ID,0 FROM TECHNET_SUBSCRIBERS
WHERE EMAIL_ID LIKE '%XXX.gov';
SQL> COMMIT;

* substitute XXX for your favorite TLA ( Agency ).!

Re:Hmm.. how can I make a headline?

[billcopc]

Geez, isn't that called bribery/lobbying/whatever-diminutive-politically-c orrect-term ?

"Hello Mr Evil NSA Dude, please treat yourself to a free copy of our multi-bazillion-dollar product and do with it as you please. And the next time you're shopping around for enterprise software, please take the time to think of the friendly folks at Oracle."

which directly translates into :

"Hey wise guy, take this crap and shove it up your ass. I don't care, it didn't cost me a penny. And if you don't play nice, we're gonna make a big publicized stink about it."

you do the math.

Building

[dbitter1]

Even with the software, the database still has to be built... I assume some of the radical [domestic, non-terrorist] militias [/cults/political activists] the ATF would love to watch aren't going to be nice enough to forward dirt on themselves in electronic format...

Standard marketing technique

[Raindeer]

If the US governement really falls for this obvious marketing technique, they are dumber then I allready thought they were. Having worked within the Dutch government I know that once a database has been addopted, it hardly ever gets replaced for another dbms. They might build another front end, upgrade the dbms, but switching from vendor is just not an option. It is too scary to make such a big step. Oracle knows this and supplying the database for a national ID-card will mean business for life.

Also don't forget, that there will be many government agencies that want to tie in their database with the national ID-database or base their database on it. Oracle will have a foot and a leg in the door there as well.

Re:Standard marketing technique

[Mike Connell]

Unless of course, they were intending using Oracle anyway. Something that doesn't seem unlikely given the size of the project.

Re:Standard marketing technique

[Raindeer]

Unless of course, they were intending using Oracle anyway. Something that doesn't seem unlikely given the size of the project.

Maybe, though on this side of the ocean, IBM with OS/390 and DB2 seem to be most popular for massive databases. But since they're getting it for free.... I am willing to bet they haven't payed yet. Larry Ellison is still a long way from being as rich as Bill Gates, so he won't pass on any nickel he finds on the streets. :-)

Re:Standard marketing technique

[humps]

>>but switching from vendor is just not an option.
nope, it is always an option. Its not an if the people implementing the middleware were lazy and used all the database specific functions. If the middleware is implemented in such a way that it only requires a generic API (such as JDBC, ODBC, and yes I know not every db implements all optional JDBC/ODBC features), changing the database is not a difficult task and I've seen it in big corps. Its also not an option when a contract is still effective.

I use pure JDBC, I switch db from Oracle to SQLServer2k to DB2 or MySQL back and forth. Stupid middleware implementation is to be blamed. And Larry won't get business for life if a better cheaper db is out there.

Re:Standard marketing technique

[wirefarm]

>>>but switching from vendor is just not an option.
>nope, it is always an option.

Rarely.
In many gov't shops, the Oracle sits on the one Sun box in the place and is only touched buy the ouside vendor-unix guys who stop in once-in-a-while to tweak it. (Those guys who never come to lunch with you.)
You may have in-house people who can fsck around with an in-house built Ms Sql Server or Oracle db, but that rarely has anything to do with that one lonely off-limts box in the corner.

Technically, "yes". All you have to do is email the vendor and get a data dictionary for the 'box-in-the-corner', but in reality, don't hold your breath. Either you will never get it, or worse, you will, then you realize that it is such crap that it will take two years before you could possibly get a system working in any other home-grown rdbms. They have the advantage: though the databases are total crap, design-wise, they've spent the last ten years polishing these turds into bombproof 'systems'.
(Ignore the little man behind the curtain... Ignore that box in the corner...)
I wish it weren't so...

Cheers,
Jim in Tokyo

Re:Standard marketing technique

[Theodrake]

If you can switch between RDBMs so trivially then you have not optimized your queries. All RDBMs vendors extend SQL to allow you to optimize your queries to work with their database engine. For instance Oracle allows you to put in hints, also Oracle had a bug where certain embedded comments crashed the parser but SQL Server, MySQL, etc, work just fine. PostgreSQL has a slightly different implementation of aliases then Oracle and on and on and on. So yes, if you implement a trivial database you can switch between all the vendors in a trivial manner. But when have hundreds of different queries that are joining multiple tables and searching through millions of records, you better be optimizing to the Vendors implementation.

Re:Standard marketing technique

[Drazi100]

actually he wasnt too far behind bill gates last year.

as for massive databases, I believe they are neck-in-neck.

Re:Standard marketing technique

[Anonymous Coward]

Just FYI, the cliche you're using is actually "neck and neck", and refers to horse racing (I believe) where two horses are side-by-side.

Re:Standard marketing technique

[fishebulb]

true, but bill did give truckloads away. bill helped elison more than elison helped himself in that race

Credit cards as an example...?

[bani]

Oh dear.

credit cards are among the easiest systems to defraud.

And here Ellison is touting them as an example for the national ID system to follow?

It's just more proof that Ellison is hitting the crack pipe especially hard these days.

And AFAIK Ellison has still not answered those simple questions that were posed to him, eg "what terrorists, if any, would a national ID card system have stopped?"

Re:Credit cards as an example...?

[DavidpFitz]

Perhaps he meant the security which companies such as Visa employ. CC's themselves aren't very secure (in terms of fraud) but you can bet Visa's systems are rock solid. You may hear that blah-blah.com's web site was cracked open are CC numbers got at, but that's nothing to do with Visa's own database security (which, incedentally rund DB2) -- so is Ellison saying the US Government should move to DB2?! :-)

Re:Credit cards as an example...?

[Rohan427]

Considering the multiple security holes that are present in Oracle 9i, DB2 would be the far better choice. Either way, I will not submit to the system no matter what DB system it uses. Especially if it's as wide open as Oracle 9i is.

I suppose M$ is going to give them copies of Windows 2000 to make the system a complete mess. :)

Rohan

Re:Credit cards as an example...?

[symbolic]

Isn't it hilarious the way that Ellison is attempting to draw some kind of comparison between using his product, and an ability to deter terrorism? What happens when some enterprising underworld operative figures out how to create phony versions of the national ID? The government might as well be using FileMaker.

---

Dear Osama,

We're using Oracle now, so you can't bomb us anymore. Larry Ellison says so.

Sincerely,

The US Government.

Standards

[Iamthefallen]

Ein folk, Ein reich, Ein RDBMS?

What? The form you must fill as you enter the US asking if you're a terrorist, nazi or have participated in any genocides recently isn't enough?

Re:Standards

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmmm... Well, if they asked 'software genocide', then maybe we could convince BG to take a trip outside the USA (and, no, not a weekend getaway to BC, either), and then we could keep him out...

Re:Standards

[Tackhead]

> Ein folk, Ein reich, Ein RDBMS?
>
> What? The form you must fill as you enter the US asking if you're a terrorist, nazi or have participated in any genocides recently isn't enough?

Nope. It'll have a new line: "Are you now, or have you at any time in the past, administered a Sybase server?"

Re:Standards

[Anonymous Coward]

Actully, it's "Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the Communist party or any other organization with the stated intent of the overthrow of the lawful government of the United States."

Often wondered if anybody ever answers "yes" to that question just to see what happens...

Umm...

[powerlinekid]

Don't companies give software to the govt all the time, or am I missing something? I know they're donating it but I don't think the problem here is this. I think the problem is Ellison's continued push for those id cards and mass public data records (bettering those of the fbi, etc). I'm sure this is unconstitutional somewhere involving privacy, etc. I'm just waiting for microsoft to roll out Windows XP smartcard edition, so not only will .NET passport book you a flight online but you'll need it to get you on the damn plane.

Re:Umm...

[grid geek]

From a UK perspective we don't get software given as such but have meaningful "parnerships" with industry where they match government funding for research projects, usually meaning software. This gives them a zero opportunity cost, ensures all the students / researchers know their software (and will take this knowledge into industry a couple of years later) and get access to the latest research. It's not a problem, it's just part of the research business and doesn't usually cause too many problems.

I don't know too much about the US constitutional issues but the right of privacy (or right to be left alone according to the Supreme Court) doesn't usually extend to hiding from the gov.

I guess a single system would be good to tie in birth & death certificates, tax records, driving licences, medical stuff etc from the perspective of making it really hard to create false identities (or really easy if you happen to be the government) but what of identity theft?

All you'd need to do is get in the one system and you could take over someones life. Kinda scary. Especially if you could then reclassify someone as a terrorist at the stroke of a key.

What's the problem

[YearOfTheDragon]

"Ellison has followed through with his threat, I mean promise,"
What's so bad with that?
Control isn't bad itself.
If I put a Troll or an Off-topic I get a -1 and if I put an interesting comment I get a plus.
That's control, and is good. Moderation is used very bad sometimes. But the goal is fine.
What matters is not that the CIA has that information, but what does with it.

Re:What's the problem

[1D10T]

Basically you are right. The problem I see is that the government might be able to put it to bad uses. If you allow certain control this might be ok while there is the current government. But remember what happens when a person like Hitler gets the power. He may put the existing infrastructure to his own bad uses. That is the time when you see you shouldn't have allowed the control, because it could be used to your own bad.

Re:What's the problem

[nrosier]

Security and privacy just don't go together. Americans are soo keen on their "privacy" but they are also the country that has the nice systems like Carnivore and Echelon. And what do these systems do? Tap telephones, sniff email etc... It seems to me that privacy is alright as long as it's the American's privacy and then still, who can say that those systems (and others) aren't used today to spy on Americans as well?
I don't see why having a identity card is such a bad thing. Today, you already need a driver's license if you want to by alcohol or a social security number if you want a job. Tell me, what's the difference?

Re:What's the problem

[oyenstikker]

A /.'er with a [port scanner/cd burner/whatever] is okay, because he will use it for good, not evil.

But government with a whatever is not okay, because it will use it for evil, not good?

So you trust yourself, but not the government. Fine, the government trusts itself, and but you.

Re:What's the problem

[OldCrasher]

Moderation isn't control. It's censure. Control would be CowboyNeal coming over to your place of computing, chopping off your fingers for typing the blasphemy, then dusting you over, imprisoning your loved ones, having your car repossessed, strangling the cat... Oh, I'm enjoying this too much!

But '-1' is NOT control, no way, no how.

Re:What's the problem

[sllort]

A /.'er with a [port scanner/cd burner/whatever] is okay, because he will use it for good, not evil.

Private property owned by citizens is legal until they use that property to break the law. The only exception being the DMCA, which can be violated by possessing a thought, i.e. thoughtcrime.

But government with a whatever is not okay, because it will use it for evil, not good?

A government with a whatever is in this case a government with a law mandating all citizens to have a national I.D. card. For reasons cited in numerous posts here, the very existence of this law would be evil.

Analogies that compare private property and laws are stupid.

IHBT. IHL. IDC.

Re:What's the problem

[Ivan Raikov]

What's so bad with that?
Control isn't bad itself.

Um, "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Re:What's the problem

[oyenstikker]

I'm not talking about the government having the laws, I'm talking about the government having the software. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Re:What's the problem

[Robotech_Master]

Oh, God, no. Someone's given the government software they could put to bad uses. It's so lucky that our government doesn't have its own money with which it can purchase software to put to bad uses. Then we'd really be up a creek.

Re:What's the problem

[keefebert]

The government could buy a box of pencils and put them to bad uses. Since no one has any idea what the government wants with this software, if they want it at all, there really is no issue here.

Another 3-letter group

[IainMH]

Seeing as how he has already supplied the CIA with software, I bet it went to another 3-letter group

Not AOL?!! They are the people we fear the most!

Re:Another 3-letter group

[Xpilot]

The M.I.B.?

Nah, they use alien technology.

The I.B.M.?

Nah, they develop alien technology :)

Re:Another 3-letter group

[codemonkey_uk]

Perhaps it was the FSF. That would be a turn up for the books. :)

Re:Another 3-letter group

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, I've got it: NPR - for their streaming audio servers. Every story gets a separate entry in The Database...

Re:Another 3-letter group

[linzeal]

I would imagine RMS would shit in the boxes and use the manuals for toilet paper then send them back, no really thats the least I would expect from the man.

Re:Another 3-letter group

[vladkrupin]

That must have been CTF. Ok, it is not an organization, but I need a good big database to keep the track of all my frags and flags in CTF. I bet they gave it to Id. :)

Re:Another 3-letter group

[tbone1]

Fear AOL?!?! You don't know fear until you've been audited by the IRS.

(Laugh, but the tax courts in which the IRS tries you are run by the IRS. Rather Prussian of them, isn't it? And, no kidding, the auditor who came after me was named "Lynch". I should have known then.)

Why this does not matter

[wackysootroom]

1. If Larry Ellison offered you a free copy of arguably the #1 database server (and the most expensive) on the market, would you turn him down?

2. The article makes no mention of what kind of data will be stored in the database server.

Even if there is no 'National ID card' information, Ellison saved our government lots of money by giving us expensive software. Lobbying the legislature, writing congress letters, etc. is up to us.

IMHO, the government probably listened to his schpiel, said thanks, and used the software for something else besides the ID card.

Re:Why this does not matter

[lupetto]

Larry Ellison offers a free copy of oracle to everyone. It can be found on oracle's website.

Re:Why this does not matter

[MrFredBloggs]

But ooooooooooh its a database...and as we all know, databases are only used for bad reasons! Just think, they might arrest the wrong person! better to arrest no-one, and just hope there are no bad people around...

Re:Why this does not matter

[mini me]

1. If Larry Ellison offered you a free copy of arguably the #1 database server (and the most expensive) on the market, would you turn him down?

But is it free? What about upgrades? Support costs? Machines to run it on? Administrators? etc.

"Here is your brand new copy of Oracle 9i. Did I happen to mention that Oracle 10 will be released next week? Can I put you down for a copy? It's a bargain at only $40,000."

Re:Why this does not matter

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck that, I say we arrest everybody. God knows our prisons are underpopulated.

Re:Why this does not matter

[Anonymous Coward]

If Larry Ellison offered you a free copy of arguably the #1 database server (and the most expensive) on the market, would you turn him down?

The first taste is always free.

Now run along and port all of your systems to Oracle...

Re:Why this does not matter

[Theodrake]

Larry has already stated that the software is free, but maintenance isn't. The difference is about 90%,that is if the 1st year license was $100,000 then the 2nd year maintenance is $10,000. Maintence includes free upgrades. So my question is how much is the maintenance for this free software?

Re:Why this does not matter

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't it better to arrest no one than to arrest the wrong person?

Re:Why this does not matter

[Whistler's Mother]

Yes I would. 1. Its not the #1 database Server 2. Irrelevant

Re:Why this does not matter

[Drazi100]

Its not the #1 database

according to gardner it is albeit it is eroding slowly

Re:Why this does not matter

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course! better to leave rapists and murderers to wander around than to arrest and question them with the associated risks of wasting a few hours of someones time.

hmmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Three letter government agency... hmmm...

.net

!!!

Good thing they beat M$ to it

[The 14 year old]

Microsoft could have "donated" their passport "technology" to the government, and we all know that could lead to very bad things. Damned be the day that my hotmail account is bound to a National ID Card!

Re:Good thing they beat M$ to it

[Anonymous Coward]

No, they may have not beat M$. Didn't the
chief security officer of Microsoft just
join the white house staff? How long until
.NET & SQLServer are the engines of the
national card?

Re:Good thing they beat M$ to it

[netsharc]

Nyah, ain't gonna work... imagine the wait-times everytime someone needs to verify your ID.. "oops, server down, please try again in a few minutes.".

SQL server.. get a real system. Microsoft is only good at making GUI and the desktop OS behind it, but no way for servers.

Look at the history of SSN

[sllort]

One of the most popular uses of the Social Security Number is stalking your ex-spouse. Larry's database should make this... easier?

Then there's the ACLU's stance: There must be no national ID system -- either in law or in practice.

But all of this means nothing, and preaching to the /. choir is pointless. There's only one number the politicians will look at. And it's this one.

If you want to do something proactive, try to do something about that.

Re:Look at the history of SSN

[Jingle Returno]

Yes.
How can one move a population unaware/unconcerned about the complications of national government? At least lawmakers/thinkers are being shown on tv now I hear (albright, freidman, and others, even franzen.) But still, when Kansas wants to fuck up the evil, and the president does to, what else do they need to know? What else do they want to know?

Re:Look at the history of SSN

[Rogerborg]

• preaching to the /. choir is pointless. There's only one number the politicians will look at. And it's [opinion polls]

You're being too simplistic. Other numbers that can effect their decision:

• Number of $50 bills in the brown paper bag passed under the table in the diner.
• Number of roofied cheerleaders in the back of the limo.
• Number of useless idiot nephews who can be given PR jobs with a fat expense account and no job description within the bidder's company.

This isn't meant to be funny. We have honest politicians, but not enough, and a system where 90% of career incumbents are re-elected doesn't exactly encourage honesty or integrity.

I think we've already lost the national ID card argument. All we have to worry about now is how well the system is implemented, and how many false positives it will generate when despatching the MIBs to apprehend evil doers. Given that law enforcement in increasingly using SWAT tactics these days (whether they're trained in them or not) even for such dangerous criminals as computer crackers, I'd hope that whatever system we settle on actually works, especially if it's going to be used by all branches of government at all levels.

If Sally Secretary is going to initiate a paramilitary action against Karl Kracker just by typing in his ID number, I'd far rather that there are safeguards in place to ensure that the goons actually go to Karl's house and not mine. In that respect, an Oracle system might be the least of a host of evils.

Consider the alternative: who do you want to make go away today?

Re:Look at the history of SSN

[Theodrake]

If (and I don't believe it is true) the majority of politicians are dishonest, then they are that way because the majority of the voters don't care. What most voters do care about is how many federal dollars are spent in their district.

When people complain about dishonest politicians they almost always exclude their own representives. Remember all politics are local.

The main thing I fear about this centralized database is all the civil servent drones needed to run it. I fear the bored civil servant running the software, more then some MIB scenario.

Also remember it is illegal to lie to a Federal employee. But it is real hard to prove I deliberately filed out that form incorrectly. Misspell your name, transpose a number or two. Verifying this large of a database won't be trivial. Look the IRS can't track the false number of dependants people were claiming on thier 1040s from year to year until they required a SSN. After that the population of the US dropped a little. Just remember to be consistent in your false information.

Re:Look at the history of SSN

[Sgs-Cruz]

If you want to do something proactive, try to do something about that.

What, you mean like make an automated vote-bot and spam the poll? Kind of like the forum goons at somethingawful.com did?

-Cruz

Re:Look at the history of SSN

[Wesley Everest]

That's a pretty bogus poll. Do practices being used in the terror investigation go too far? It assumes that the respondant knows what practices are being used, and it also suggests that improper practices are at least in the right direction, even if they've gone "too far".

Now, if you asked people if it is ok for CIA agents to attach electrodes to an elderly suspect's testicles in order to extract information, and then to dump the suspect in a street without apologies or medical care if it turned out to be an innocent bystander, my guess is most Americans would say that such actions are criminal and not to be tolerated. Is it "going too far"? Only in the sense that Charles Manson "went too far".

Of course, the real question is will Larry Ellison still be alive for Nuremburg II, and, if so, what will be his excuse? And should he hang for his crimes?

IBM set up the Nazi database system and apparently got off claiming they didn't know the Nazis would do bad things with it. Given that the various political leaders and even the CIA have gone on record approving of torture and assassinations to root out "terrorists", and given the broad use of the term "terrorist", can Larry Ellison successfully claim ignorance? Is ignorance a valid defense?

Re:Look at the history of SSN

[philovivero]

Wow. Read that link you called 'stalking your ex-spouse.'

If you change your SSN and identity, then you can no longer get a passport.

The United States has already completed its downward spiral to cold-war USSR standards. It imprisons people from other countries for political reasons. It numbers its citizens. It disallows travel to other countries with the right to return.

It's just amazing. I'm only 30 years old and I'm already old enough to remember all the propaganda from my childhood saying these things were bad and could never happen in the United States.

What a sad state of affairs.

Question, what's so wrong with this?

[snatchitup]

Question, we have the right to privacy, but do we also have the right to anonymity?

I think it's too much fuss about the inevitable.

Regards...

Re:Question, what's so wrong with this?

[Theodrake]

Yes. I have the right to make a purchase with cash. I don't have to use a credit card or check. I believe you can still purchase Postal Money Orders with cash and no id. And even though a clerk may ask to see my Drivers License to purchase liquour or tobbaco products, they don't record that information.

But the question is does the government have a right to know who I am at its will, or only when there is a reasonable belief I have broken a law. It seems to me that the government is trying to make me identify myself even when there is no belief I have commmited a crime.

3 letter groups?

[Gannoc]

Seeing as how he has already supplied the CIA with software, I bet it went to another 3-letter group.

Like EFF? Or FSF?

Please, we must not allow our emotions to take over, or we might start hating ALL groups of three letters, which would be a tragedy...

Re:3 letter groups?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or even shock horror MFI.

Responsibility

[Tomcat666]

We've had it with people working in medicinal areas (they developed the Hippocratic oath to make sure only to help the people), and with scientists (remember Hiroshima?).

It seems like programmers are in the focus now. Would you write software that will be used in military devices (to kill people)? To observe people and violate their privacy? How can you know what your software is used for?

We should take care of what we are doing when we publish and/or write a piece of software.

This also has some interesting aspects for open source licenses like the GPL. There's no part of the GPL forbidding the use of the licensed software for militaristic purposes (wrong?) or privacy intrusion (to stay on topic). Since most hackers are friendly people and the GPL reflects a big part of the hacker ethics, it should probably restrict the use of your software for the "wrong" purposes.

On the other hand, if you're not as pacifistic and freedom-loving as I am, you might say that the GPL shouldn't restrict the use of software so much. But then I think programmers should consider NOT to release a program if it could be used in a bad way.

Hackers are putting so much love and work and spare time into their projects that they are thinking about its possibilities anyway, so maybe the only danger here is commercial software, written only to earn money.

Re:Responsibility

[Tomcat666]

I saw it... I was shocked and scared... and it made my paranoia against the government even stronger. :)

Re:Responsibility

[Ivan Raikov]

Check out ACM's Software Engineering Code of Ethics. It seems like a good starting point, and can perhaps be incorporated in the GPL.

Re:Responsibility

[Anonymous Coward]

"We should take care of what we are doing when we publish and/or write a piece of software." Considering that it's my job to write software to "observe people and violate their privacy", I'm not in a position to dictate to my employers what I want to code. Yes, you could say "Leave and find another job" but what about my wife and daughter? My job is my income and it supports my family. If the software I write was done so on my own time and at my expense, then I have the right of whether or not to "release a program if it could be used in a bad way." Just a thought.

Re:Responsibility

[kin_korn_karn]

if you think anyone does OSS out of love you're sadly mistaken. They do it to get fame and prestige in their society (the OSS community, i.e. Slashdot, k5). Very few people do anything for other people because they want to, and they've usually taken an oath to their God and believe they'll burn for eternity if they don't.

Re:Responsibility

[mindstrm]

Well.. you are trying to apply a moral philosophy to programming that could be applied to anything else in this world. Should people invest in companies that engage in questionalbe practices? Should the shareholders of Microsoft be at fault because of MS's anti-comptetitive practices? What about those who invest in weapons companies. They should all be guilty as well?

The GPL is about freedom of software. To restrict it's use is subjective. Is using it for weapons systems wrong? What if it's the only thing protecting you from some totalitarian regime trying to take over your country? Is it still wrong?

Pacifism is great, but it ignores reality.

Re:Responsibility

[Anonymous Coward]

You sound like Mr. Van Dreesen, that hippy teacher on Beavis and Butthead

Re:Responsibility

[MrResistor]

I think this is a straw man arguement. You're blaming the technology for the uses it's being put to, and frankly it's inappropriate. Technology is nothing but a tool, like a hammer. You're essentially asking all hammer manufacturers to shut down because it's possible to kill someone with a hammer.

Your arguement is certainly pacifist, but not freedom-loving at all. Censorship is the enemy of freedom, even if it is self imposed! The GPL is about Free-as-in-speech, and if you alter the license so that, for example, GPLed code can't be used in weapon systems, then it is no longer Free-as-in-speech. You are removing freedoms in order to impose your own pacifist morallity on others. That doesn't sound very freedom-loving to me. Feel free to write your own license for your code that prevents military use, but don't ask for such a clause to be added to a license like the GPL, it violates the basic principles on which that license is built.

Personally, I would have no problems writing code specifically for weapons systems if I were being paid to do it, nor would I be bothered if code I wrote for some other purpose were used in a weapon system. The for pay requirement above is merely a reflection of my desire to be paid, and my recognition that the military-industrial complex has the capability to do that. Unfortunately a military is necessary in our world, and a modern military requires technological systems. Someone is going to get paid to create those systems, and it might as well be me.

RDBs have many potential uses, none of which are destructive (unlike nuclear physics and medicine). Some of the potential uses are invasive, but does that mean the world should be deprived of this technology? Certainly not, especially considering the only difference between invasive and non-invasive RDBs are the people using them.

Re:Responsibility

[Anonymous Coward]

Tools are neither good nor evil. Would you advocate refusing to make hammers, because they might be used to kill someone? Can you possibly predict all the potential uses of a piece of software? One of the exciting things about open source is that you don't know all the new possibilities you are creating by putting something out there for the common good. Linux can be used to make military computers cheaper, more reliable, easier to develop. Does that mean Linus should have kept it to himself?

Re:Responsibility

[jallen02]

I think you are wrong. This is abviously a flame, but I developed software purely for love of it. I developed a rather large MUD just because people enjoyed playing there and interacting with like minds.

It was great fun to be the facilitator of that fun. I will admit it is a nice feeling for people to respect what you do, but it is completely not about prestige for a lot of us.

What I did, I did because I know I was giving people a way to have fun and be entertained. I was building my OWN online community, not for prestige, but because people enjoyed being there.

Thanks

Jeremy

Re:Responsibility

[abe ferlman]

Well, it would be illegal to write controller code for a patent-lawyer-emulator-mecha-warrior robot named "Jack ValentEliza". Other than that though, you're basically right about the GPL and the weapons thing.

Data already available

[imrdkl]

Who cares what database is used for this?

The data is already available for anyone in at least three individual states.

But which OS!?!?

[paulywog]

Blah blah blah...

But which platform did he provide the software for!?! That's the important question. He better be insisting that the government be running their Oracle database on Linux... or atleast some UNIX platform.

:)

Re:But which OS!?!?

[jonr]

Probably something like this or this or something else even bigger iron...

Re:But which OS!?!?

[digitalunity]

Something like this?

Re:But which OS!?!?

[alen]

Do you seriously think he is going to recommend NT and an easy future migration to SQL Server? Some people in the government already don't know anything except for microsoft and why make it worse?

Re:But which OS!?!?

[Jburkholder]

You know, I'd love to know some of the details of this transaction (although that would take away some of the fun of wild speculation).

I'm really scratching my head about what, if any, strings Larry was able to put on this 'gift'. Doesn't seem to likely he would be able to steer the way this goes by putting conditions on his donation.

"Here, I'm granting a 'special-use' license to the US Federal Government for unlimited instances of Oracle9i. Now, you can use these any way you see fit for the national id card project, with just a few 'provisoes'. First, you can't ever run it on or with any Microsoft software. Next, blah blah blah...."

"Um, okay. Gee thanks."

I'd have to guess Oracle would have to gift this software with no strings, other than stuff to cover their butt.

Re:But which OS!?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is one case I definitely WANT NT to be used! I would want this system to BSOD as often as possible.

Re:But which OS!?!?

[defaulthtm]

I would take Ellison a lot more seriously if he were to come up with the hardware and a development crew along with the software.
K.

Re:But which OS!?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about this?

Notice the rapid deployment features...

And remember that those are 64 bit machines, and they're not Unobtaniums, either...

Re:But which OS!?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

No way! Leave hardware to the pros -- IBM, Sun, HPaq, etc.

The only example of a software company making good hardware is M$...

of course, I'm talking about the Intellimouse Optical, a fine piece of hardware indeed.

Re:But which OS!?!?

[wannabe]

Odd but true -

I have the 9/2001 NSA Commercial Product Evaluations CD on my desk and the latest Oracle trusted system was the Version 7 DB with the correct security enhancements. No current version was currently even in the process of being evaluated.

On the other hand, MS SQL server 7 was in the process of getting trusted system status per the NSA under Rainbow criteria as well as the updated CPE criteria.

I'm as much of a conspiracy nut as the rest of /., but when it comes right down to it, reality tells me that a certified trusted system is going to win the bid over a non-trusted system.

And NT 4.0 Service Pack 6a with the Security Level C2 enhancements meet the NSA trusted system criteria for that level.

All of this, of course, is not to say that Larry and the boys couldn't fast track the evaluation...

Hmmm... Three letters

[i1984]

...I bet it went to another 3-letter group.

That can only mean the most terrifying, powerful, and secretive agency in the whole of the government... .

.

The I.R.S!!!

Ahhhhhhhh!!!!

With Oracle's powerful software they'll be able to haggle happles taxpayers over previously unimaginably complex, nuanced, obscure articles of tax code!

Why couldn't the NSA just use it implement some sort of Big-Brother national ID card thing?!

Dear god Ellison...have you no heart?!

Re:Hmmm... Three letters

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear god Ellison...have you no heart?!

Geesh - I thought THAT fact had been established long ago! Just ask any of his former cookies^H^H^H^H^H^H^H, er, Administrative Assistants. Or, for that matter, anyone living near the ends of the runways in San Jose who try to sleep at night...

He must still think he needs to put on a show for GQ Bob (Palmer) or something...

Re:Hmmm... Three letters

[Tackhead]

> The I.R.S!!!

As long as we're guessing, how about the INS? Lord knows those fucksticks could certainly use the help.

And it'd be consistent with Ellison "[declining] to give further details, such as which agency or for what usage".

At the INS, I'd bet the usage would be "Put it in the mailroom for six months. Have an agent take it from the mailroom and put it on the shelf sometime in spring of 2002. Have another agent wipe the dust off the box in 2004. Take the box off the shelf and try to install it on a 4.77 MHz PC/XT in 2007. (Side project: Install a CD-ROM for the PC/XT. Should be done by 2011.) When the installation program reports "not enough RAM" sometime in 2018, write a glowing report to Congress about the wonders of the ongoing INS modernization programme, and how, Real Soon Now, INS will finally be able to stop Bad Guys and illegal aliens from getting into (and staying in) our country, if it weren't for all those goddamn legal aliens we're still spending all our time trying to get rid of through interminably long delays in their paperwork."

Slashdotters can moderate this as (+1, Funny). INS employees will probably moderate it as (+1, Informative).

NSA scrutiny

[Pig Hogger]

Seeing as how he has already supplied the CIA with software, I bet it went to another 3-letter group.

...Where everyone looking at it is having fits of laughter having a look at the "security" features...

Re:NSA scrutiny

[sql*kitten]

Where everyone looking at it is having fits of laughter having a look at the "security" features...

You say that, but let me tell you, I don't think you could take over a Unix host if the SQL*Net port was the only one open to you. And I have never in my years of working with Oracle come across someone with a password on one schema being able to get at any other schemas that they hadn't been granted. Certainly the quality of Oracle's "security" is higher than that in almost every Unix.

Turf wars among the intelligence agencies

[fhwang]

In the story, Ellison is quoted as saying: "There is cooperation (among government agencies). But there's a lot of data fragmentation."

Of course, one of the biggest reasons for the data fragmentation is that that intelligence agencies don't cooperate -- if anything, they're notorious for their turf wars. Ellison is downplaying the organizational battles in order to pitch his technical solution.

One of the causes of the turf war is that the intelligence agencies are poorly defined and poorly monitored. Once an intelligence agency is created, it tends to have a life of its own. Case in point: The CIA was originally chartered to help the U.S. fight the Cold War, something it did with laughable incompetence at times. But when the Cold War ended -- an event which took the agency entirely by surprise -- nobody at the CIA thought "Since our job is done, let's tell Congress to shut us down so we can be unemployed." No, of course, they looked around for other threats to pitch to the White House. With terrorism, they seem to have found it.

Except for the fact that much of the anti-terrorism work will be domestic, and that therefore it falls under the aegis of the FBI, instead. But can you imagine the CIA bosses, always anxious about Congressional funding and eager to get into the anti-terrorism spotlight, staying out of the fray? Forget about it.

Re:Turf wars among the intelligence agencies

[alen]

There is still a lot of work work for the CIA. It's charter is to collect intel information from all foreign governemnts, including allies. And bin laden isn't exactly an American citizen and falls out of the FBI's jurisdiction.

But you're excatly right about the life of it's own. I used to work for the DoD and they will think up of anything to keep their jobs alive. It could be the most useless army unit or agency, but they will find ways to say how indispensible they are to national security.

Re:Turf wars among the intelligence agencies

[snatchitup]

Not to mention the bumbling idiots over at the Interior Department. The Wallstreet Journal is reporting this morning that an independent company was hired by the Justice Department to investigate the security risk in the Indian Accounting System. The one that is used to pay the Indians rents, royalties, etc. for the use of their land.

They were able to hack the system undetected. No wonder Bruce Babbitt had to lie, we couldn't handle the truth that the Hundreds of Millions may have been stolen by hackers.

Re:Turf wars among the intelligence agencies

[brunes69]

Another problem, as far as I understand it anyway, is that there is alot of overlap betwen the agencies. For example, the NSA overlaps alot with the CIA, both in their goals and how they achieve them. And the NSA ovrlaps in some areas (Satelite communications monitoring, etc) with the US Military. Not to mention how much the responsibilities of the various domestic agencies (FBI, US Marshals, local police) overlap.

Re:Turf wars among the intelligence agencies

[wfrp01]

In the story, Ellison is quoted as saying: "There is cooperation (among government agencies). But there's a lot of data fragmentation."

It follows that Larry believes the answer is to consolodate all this data into one massive system.

There's an expression "don't put all of your eggs in one basket". It applies well to this and any other situation where people say "there are too many competing ways of doing X". Sure, this "fragmentation" Larry abhors can be a pain in the ass sometimes. But I'd certainly rather have a little chaos here and there, than one massive central point of failure. Remember what happened to the centrally controlled economy of the former Soviet Union?

Re:Turf wars among the intelligence agencies

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the causes of the turf war is that the intelligence agencies are poorly defined and poorly monitored. Once an intelligence agency is created, it tends to have a life of its own. ".... let's tell Congress to shut us down so we can be unemployed." No, of course, they looked around for other threats to pitch to the White House.

All of which seeps a little more power away from the Congress, centralizing power yet more with the Executive branch. It is in Congress' best interest that the Executive branch coallates its power into fewer departments with Congress removing some of the (exectutive) Federal workload (returning to a more balanced 1/3-seperation of power). Of course, this will not "create jobs," putt a lot of people out of work (and back into the private industry, notorius for waffling between supply and demand); it may affect the social "safety net" and may even go against the Constitution, where in the Preamble we see the government is charged to "insure domestic tranquility," and "promote the general welfare".

Re:Turf wars among the intelligence agencies

[clueless_penguin]

Actually, there is almost no overlap between the CIA and NSA. The CIA is civilian, and is chartered to act as a central clearinghouse for information. It has become much more than that, of course, but aside from covert ops, it mainly does analysis of overhead photos, foreign periodicals, human intelligence, etc, and provides this analysis to the Executive Branch. NSA is primarily staffed by the military, and operates electronic listening posts (satellite and others). The division of labor is clearcut between evesdropping and everything else. They really do not step too much on each other's toes. The military does overlap with some of both, and operate competing intelligence services. There's where the real turf wars are. None of them are allowed to operate within U.S. borders, and they don't. This was actually the problem in detecting the Sept 11 terrorists - the CIA told the FBI that some of the hijackers had entered the country, and the FBI of course screwed up and lost them.

Re:Turf wars among the intelligence agencies

[Anonymous Coward]

Congress is far too lazy for that. They are content to sit on their haunches and pretend to participate in the government of the country while yet another president creates new authorities for the executive branch through executive orders. Why we even continue the charade that congress still has any real power is beyond comprehension.

Re:Turf wars among the intelligence agencies

[ChadN]

"And the only people we hate worse than the Romans... Are the fucking Judean People's Front!"

BTW. "The Crook Factory", by Dan Simmons, is a very fun book to read about similar topics. In particular, it is a story about Ernest Hemingway's (real-life) spy ring in Cuba during WWII, and the infighting of the various US and German intelligence agencies during that time.

Re:Turf wars among the intelligence agencies

[tbone1]

I used to work for the DoD and they will think up of anything to keep their jobs alive.

Unlike, say, other civil servants, marketing executives, and union lawyers, right?

Lord knows the DoD isn't perfect, but basically, you just accused them of being human. Expect Sam Donaldson to show up at your doorstep and spank you with a slipper.

Worried

[knurr]

There is nothing i can think of to make me feel better about our goverment sometimes. I understand safety. But I also feel like i am loosing my freedom. Like if i fart wrong someone will read my email.

I know i must sound paranoid. I just feel that the goverment is going to eventually fuck me and all the peolple like me and the only thing i would be able to do, if i wanted to be a "computer savy" person, Is to move to another county.

There is nothing i did. I am just affraid of a Hackor witch hunt one day. Stupid people who understand nothing about the net, computers, selling you out to get on the news for 15 minutes of fames. Innocnet newbies sniifing aroung the wrong area getting arrested for innocent crimes.

The net society might get crazy in the next 10 years. We as techies/geeks help build the current economy but as soon as we are deemed a threat, we will be elliminated...

How exactly does this change anything?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, it may be a marketing gimmick, but in reality, what does this change? If the gov't wasn't planning on creating a national ID card system, getting a complete Oracle system isn't going to change their minds.

On the other hand, if they *were* planning on creating a national ID card system, it's a pretty safe bet that they'd choose Oracle as a platform.

So, other than Ellison making sure his name stays in the headlines (There's an entire industry that revolves around keeping people's names in the headlines, so this is nothing new), what's the harm here? This act alone is not going to create a national ID card system.

Where do I sign up...

[powerlinekid]

So it looks like all the movies made years ago are going to be true. The govt is going monitor every living soul in the US, and probably the world (sorry to those of you outside the country, but... it is the US). So with that in mind... I surrender. Give me my card and my new name. Give me my own personal observation satellite and spyware dental work. From what I've seen... they go easy on you if you just give in. So... are you listening my beloved republican govt? I give up... (sorry suckers... but I got dibs on this first... might as well be a subservient asskisser before it gets trendy)

Re:Where do I sign up...

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't get a name. From now on, you will be known only by your social security number.

Re:Where do I sign up...

[Anonymous Coward]

Man, did you see that dress that 324-21-0923 is wearing today??? DAMN!!

Oh woe is me...

[Anonymous Coward]

The DMV have finally got a database... how will we ever cope with the government knowing who owns what car/van/truck...

wait a minute...

who cares... what better place to keep all the goverment fantasy football/basketball/any other sport information...

World Wide Problem

[YearOfTheDragon]

Not only americans are observed by Echelon.
US wins Spain's favour with offer to share spy network material
ETA (a terrorist group from Spain) is one of the tarjets of Echelon.

And I'm sure that CIA is not planing to get information only about Americans but about any person in the world that get caught in his net.
Even worst: "Unlike information on US citizens, which officially cannot be kept longer than a year, information on foreigners can he held without time limit."
So Echelon is a WWP not only USA.

Re:World Wide Problem

[Anonymous Coward]

ETA is an group from Basque Country that fight to reach the independence from Spain, not a terrorist group.
GAL was a terrorist group.

Model 204 is the database of choice

[Teratogen]

I don't see why he bothered. Relational databases suck major buttocks. Model 204 is the workhorse database of choice for the United States Government.

Re:Model 204 is the database of choice

[Anonymous Coward]

Relational databases suck major buttocks

Maybe, but unlike M204, you can store data longer than 255 characters in a field without resorting to that multiply-occuring crap ;)

M204 was good, had great indexing technology, but CCA never put in the effort to keep it up-to-date, provide a halfway decent SQL implementation via ODBC or port it to *ix.

CCA hasn't sold any M204 for a long time. They're just milking the maintenance dollars and sacking employees until the user-base drifts away.

Re:Model 204 is the database of choice

[Teratogen]

True, sad end for a great product. =/
But why add SQL to Model 204 when we all
know that SQL sucks? =)

Re:Model 204 is the database of choice

[Anonymous Coward]

But why add SQL to Model 204 when we all know that SQL sucks? =)

For connectivity. The ability to use the power of M204 from the desktop (or middle-tier server) would have extended the life of the product considerably IMO.

You can use SQL via ODBC but the SQL implementation is poor and performance on inserts or complex selects is lousy.

CCA announced an initiative (Window/204) that effectivley encapsulates UL procs as COM objects. These could be invoked using an RPC based on their 'Remote Command Line' interface. You could bypass SQL and invoke UL directly from your Win32 programs. I understand that 'CCA Analytics' uses this kind of RPC under the covers.

Nothing seems to be happening on it lately though.

Ah well - what might have been!

WHy not MS-SQL 2000?

[bodland]

Then the US Gov would'nt have to, (as one developer told me once) "...put up with all that Oracle crap." Dirty writing is cool.

Re:WHy not MS-SQL 2000?

[Drazi100]

a beter question is Why Not DB2.dont get me wrong sql server is great for alot but
until sql server runs on a OS/390.. forget it.

what do you mean?

[telstar]

You're telling me that the agency that focuses on the nation's electronic security didn't already have a version of one of the most-widely used databases in their labs? Maybe we should be worried.

I'm Big Brother!

[jeff13]

Ha ha ha ha ha !!!

I am Big Brother! Your profiles are mine! Your social numbers! Credit card! Who you voted for! All your international Echelon flagged phone calls! And your mother!

Thanx Larry. :)
00XX

Larry's fantasy world

[chad_r]

Note that this is just Ellison at a customer conference, and nowhere did the article mention the government's opinion. I recently read (sorry, no link) that few in the government is taking this the least bit seriously, including Congress. Remember that it wasn't too long ago that some House members (a few Republicans) were advocating not filling out the 2000 census form or lying on it, despite it being required by the Constitution.

In terms of cost, I would think the cost of the hardware is a pittance compared to the difficulties in organizing disparate agencies, each with their own data formats.

a manilla life

[K0R$ h4x0r ru1z]

Interesting the medium by which they access/assess you.

Even more interesting is the extent to which they do.

Anyone ever get you FBI file throughout the freedom of information act? You don't have an FBI file? You do now.
Also of interest: many of the /. crowd were perhaps in gifted programs throught elementary/secondary education. Guess who they start up a file for as soon as you enter special education. Don't believe me? Neither does Larry Ellison. Which is why it'll all be alright

But I do suggest checking out whats churning through the soon to be oracle tentacles. You may be surprised.

Larry's not alone

[leonbrooks]

Paul Allen of Microsoft fame, to name another financial heavyweight, is also putting his money where his beliefs are. I respect their rights to support causes that they like, I just wish there were a little less lying and misdirection by them, plus a little less blind acceptance by the other parties involved.

Or else, that I was only a hairsbreadth away from being able to do the same kind of things. (-:

I'm disappointed

[blonde rser]

I wake up and still in a haze I check /. to find a headline containing "Oracle" "Donates" and "Big Brother." So I assume that Oracle is donating software to help children's charities... only to be brought back into the cynical reality when I read the article and realize the Orwelian reference. Too bad

Don't worry your lil peabrains

[cryofan2]

The rich folks aint gonna let that mean ol Big Brother take over. You know why? No, you don't, but I'll tell you why: because if everything were known (transparent society, such as would be provided by Big Brother, and national IDs), then the rich folks would not be able to exploit our jointly owned property (the USA) as they have been doing. And then do you know what would happen? You. the little guy (with the lil peabrain) would actually get more of the beenfits accruing from your share of the joint ownership of the USA. The rich folks would have to pay more for nannies, dishwashers, programmers, etc. But like I said, don't worry, cuz the rich uns pay the TV people to keep you lil guys all stirred up about "Big Brother". That way they can keep ripping you off. So like I said don't worry your lil pea brain, just turn on the TV. There ya go...

Re:Don't worry your lil peabrains

[Anonymous Coward]

No, actually, the rich people pay US to keep YOU all stirred up. It's trickle down -- you see? So, you pea and peanut brains, well shoot, it's just not fair. Golly, even I'm victim and I've got a walnut-size brain. Of course, us "wallys" have at least developed self-awareness.

Re:Don't worry your lil peabrains

[Anonymous Coward]

"...then the rich folks would not be able to exploit our jointly owned property (the USA)..."

"actually get more of the beenfits accruing from your share of the joint ownership of the USA."

Tsk,tsk,tsk...
Isn't it sad when commies keep losing their parking spot...joint ownership indeed...

Re:Don't worry your lil peabrains

[cryofan2]

If(allusion== socialist)then
output("You dirty commie!")

Re:Don't worry your lil peabrains

[cryofan2]

I hope you got my dig above, though I doubt it.

The country is owned jointly, and since it is in our control, and we pay the tab to maintain it, and it is our work that builds it, and it is our taxes that build the roads and the sewers and provides for the fair and monitored elections. And this is also the place where we citizens work; this country is our workplace.

What word do you attach to such an entity: this place is a place we paid for--and our ancestors paid for it with blood; we inherited it from them--and it is a place we maintain with our monies; and it is a place from whence we derive our livelihood. What is another word for that sort of place, that sort of entity?

The word you want, young peabrain, is "business." THis country is our business. THis business has many partners. THis business is owned jointly by its citizens. Like many other businesses, the partners often have not only common interests, but also have *conflicting* interests.

Rich partners have conflicting interests with most other partners. For example, since rich partners buy labor, they want to buy it as cheaply as possible. Since average and below average partners sell labor, they want to sell their labor as costly as possible.
Rich partners buy TV time to make other partners think that teh factors that provide cheap labor are good.

If(allusion == socialist) then
output("you dirty commie!")

No Such Agency

[dr_doogie01]

You honestly think that they would Oracle for data storage?

These people practically invented the term! They already have the largest intelligence database in the world - and no, I'm not a crackpot conspiracy theorist (it says so on the nsa/gchq website).

If you want to know more, read the great book "Body Of Secrets" by James Bamford.

All your database are belong to Scarey

[Anonymous Coward]

When you connect your Oracle boxen to the internet Scarey Ellison can access your data.

Re:All your database are belong to Scarey

[Anonymous Coward]

And we'll finally know your real name, Anonymous Coward!

Oh, shit, and mine too. Me so scared!!!

The question is....

[darrad]

Do we really want any database that contains the kind of information we are talking about running on a piece of software developed by a corporate entity.

I may be a Black Hellicopter KOOK here, but I am thinking back the the movie, "The Net"(Bad movie, good story)

If the US Government sets up this database, running on software developed by any third party, then security will always be a problem. How many "Easter Egg" type bugs exist in most of today's software. What happens if one of the coders at Oracle was having a bad day, and added a backdoor to the database, and then publishes the path to it on the Internet?

I don't pretend to have a solution to this, short of not doing anything, which is probably the best thing we can do. Knee-jerk reactions to the events of 9/11 will end up costing us more than the actual events.

I think someone should propose to Ellison to have all of his personal data (credit card #'s, SSN, financial statements, "real" income, not what is reported to the IRS)stored in an Oracle database that is web-enabled. That will tell us all we need to know.

Scary stuff....

different version of the constitution?

[eclectric]

Mine says (In article 1, section 2)

"The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct."

Where does it say that people are constitutionally required to fill out a census form? Perhaps I'm being too literal, but this seems to be directed at the Congress, not the people, on what they *have* to do.

Nsa

[gazz]

"...to a U.S. government agency for national security, but he declined to give further details, such as which agency or for what usage."

Hmmm, an Agency for National Security....I wonder which agency...
.
..**Gazz churns his neurons**
...
I've Got it! maybe it's the National Security Agency!

BBDB

[henle]

Did anybody else reading the Slashdot headline for this story think it was about The Insidious Big Brother Database (BBDB)?

Re:BBDB

[Ivan Raikov]

I did. I'm the other BBDB user who reads Slashdot. But it integrates so damn well with Emacs Gnus, that I'll never switch to something else.

Border Control

[Anonymous Coward]

>"What? The form you must fill as you enter the US asking if you're a terrorist, nazi or have participated in any genocides recently isn't
enough?"

Actually, that's just there to recruit potential central bank executives :-) Ellison would sell the American people in a heart beat to buy yet another retirement home. And I'll work diligently the
rest of my life to make sure the companies I work for use alternative's to Oracle software.

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor justice."
-- Benjamin Franklin

And they wind up with neither...But Ellison and the rest of the jet set crew could care less, since they just get on a leir jet and fly to a country where they can buy safety... chicken shits is what they are- the lowest form of SCUM on this planet

Hey! This is BAMM (Back Alley Marketing Method)

[Anonymous Coward]

The first one is always free, little girl. heh heh heh.

CDs will go straight to trashcan

[jeffy124]

policy in all us govt agencies, particularly those dealing with intelligence and security is to _not_ accept donations from vendors, including demoware from tech conferences. Part of this is security interests but also integrity. The gov't doesnt want vendors freely supplying software in hopes they would buy more licenses.

so given that, whenever ellison's donation arrives at whatever agency he donated them to, they'll probably tell ellison "thanks, but no thanks" and toss the box in the trashcan.

Re:CDs will go straight to trashcan

[netsharc]

Interesting fact, but somehow I feel Ellison would've called the right people (hey, he's a rich guy, I'm sure he knows some of those people), and asked/told them that he wants to do that, and if they rejected, he would have somehow argued until they agreed.

Should we be worried anyway, if the government really wanted to make a national database, forking $ $COST_OF_ORACLE would be nothing to them.

Re:CDs will go straight to trashcan

[jeffy124]

excellent thought. knowing our government, i wouldnt be surprised ifthat happens

Re:CDs will go straight to trashcan

[MCZapf]

Not only that, but when "the government" contracts out software work, one of the terms of the contract is that the source code is to be delivered with the product. At least, in the Department of Defense it's like that. I think.

I would hope, that for any kind of national security database, that a similar policy would be followed. And I'm not really against such a national database either. The Federal Government, several state goverments, and local governments already have lots of information on me. Who cares if they can access it more efficiently and cheaply?

Re:CDs will go straight to trashcan

[jeffy124]

i dont know about contracted projects, it's probably a case-by-case situation. But I do know that source for commercial products remain closed to the government unless the vender specifically agrees on terms of opening the source. eg, Gov't agencies cant see the Windows source code w/o entering a specific agreement with MS.

regardless of what happens to Ellison's "donation," getting things to run more efficiently takes more than a database anyway.

Re:CDs will go straight to trashcan

[Skuld-Chan]

Funny - I've got a friend who is an airman in the US Air Force (at Langly AFB) where they have a strict policy to use nothing but Windows NT. Does that mean he can leak the source to me?

Re:CDs will go straight to trashcan

[Xugumad]

The source is probably not freely available to people in the Air Force, but I'd be very suprised to discover it hasn't been checked very carefully.

Ellison is the Howard Hughes of IT...

[Anonymous Coward]

A certified, industrial-strength wingnut with a billion buxors. When this "War On Terrorism" crap goes away, I certainly hope people remember the individuals who chose to align themselves with the forces of repression. That high-pitched whine you hear in the distance is the sound of the Founding Fathers spinning in their graves...

Not a 3-letter agency...

[gkbarr]

more of a policy:

Office of Home Security's Highly Invasive Technology

aka. OH SHIT

IRS

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, no Oracle there. IRS is an IBM big iron shop (DB2) and has been for decades.

BB Database

[glowingspleen]

A Big Brother database? Neat. I'm all for it, as long they don't let that guy Will win again. He's evil!

Re:BB Database

[Anonymous Coward]

someone please please PLEASE delete Bunky!!

Uhh.. software donation. So what?

[mindstrm]

I mean seriously.. if the price of the Oracle software is what stands in the way of the powers that be rolling out such a system, they have a serious problem already.

I also don't see the big controversy. The government already HAS huge databases, analyzed by supercomputers, to figure out things like taxes, and whatnot.. what's another database? The issue is how things are used, not that they exist.

Re:Uhh.. software donation. So what?

[Robotech_Master]

I agree with you.

And I find it very disappointing that certain Slashdot folks automatically jump to conclusions and post stories with slanted headlines. It does not exactly help Slashdot's credibility as a news source to assume the worst automatically in every instance.

It seems that "U.S. Government" + "Database" automatically equals "Big Brother." This makes about as much sense as saying "kid" + "representation of a gun" = "maniacal school killer." A database is a tool, and many of them are used by the government already for ordinary, beneficial purposes, ranging from small mailing lists on departmental computers to the drivers's license system that ensures that only people who know how to drive well enough not to be a hazard on the road are driving. Sure, there are abuses, but in this case we don't even know what the software is going to be used for. It seems a bit premature to rant about "big brother" to me.

Would it really hurt to post the same story under a more neutral headline and avoid the spectacle of yellow journalism?

Re:Uhh.. software donation. So what?

[fermi's ghost]

So are you saying, "Just because they could, does not mean they will."

Of course they will, it's just a matter of time and money, of each the feds have plenty.


The National ID Card: It's Baaack!
by Stephen Moore

Hughes Aircraft Company now has a new identification technology involving a syringe-implantable transponder. Described as a "safe and inexpensive" worker identification technology, the procedure involves planting a tiny microchip under the skin. The chip contains a 10-character alphanumeric identification code that can never be duplicated. The microchip is read by an electronic scanner -- the type that reads the price tag on the food you buy at the grocery store. The ID card is hardly a novel idea. The concept once surfaced in a Reagan cabinet meeting in 1981. Then-Attorney General William French Smith argued that a perfectly harmless ID card system would be necessary to reduce illegal immigration. A second cabinet member asked: why not tattoo a number on each American's forearm? According to Martin Anderson, the White House domestic policy adviser at the time, Reagan blurted out "My god, that's the mark of the beast." As Anderson wrote, "that was the end of the national identification card" during the Reagan years. H.R. 231 is proof that bad ideas never die in Washington; they just wait for another day.

Oracle was FOUNDED for the CIA

[Hobart]

Look up Oracle's history. They produced the first ever commercial relational database -- under contract to the CIA for a project called Oracle that got cancelled. Then they decided to market it, and took the name Oracle.

In fact, Larry Ellison was fired from Oracle in his early years there. :)

Oracle or SQL

[fathed]

What would happen if Microsoft did this today?

Shouldn't we be fair, has the government done research to find out which database software would best fit their requirements?

liberty and justice for all

[Anonymous Coward]

liberty and justice for all

Who needs Oracle?

[Juergen Kreileder]

Bah, I'm quite happy with the current version of the Insidious Big Brother Database ;-)

different 3 letter agancy?

[Lewis Daggart]

like what, irs? fbi? ibm? mci? zdn? ogl? aes? bmw? gla? thx?

Secret militairy tribunals..

[Otis_INF]

A country which has a president who wants to install secret military tribunals shouldn't be worrying about if Oracle is able to access data inside governmental databases, but should be worrying about what the difference between the USA WITH secret tribunals and a 3rd world country with a dictator and secret tribunals really is.

Just like printers

[ToasterTester]

Give the database to the goverment, then make big bucks on development tools, support, and maintenance contracts.

Good Point

[Srin Tuar]

And for our next government policy: we all have a right to "Heads" but "Tails" will be outlawed.

What other 3 letter group?

[DA_MAN_DA_MYTH]

ATF? Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
IRS? Internal Revenue Service
UPS? United Parcel Service
NBA? National Basketball Association
NFL? National Football League
NHL? National Hockey League
ISP? Internet Service Providers
DMV? Department of Motor Vehicles
FSF? Free Software Foundation
OSI? Open Source Initiative
ACM? Association for Computer Machinery
LUG? Linux User Groups
AAA? American Automobile Association
CNE? Certified Novell Engineers
MCP? Microsoft Certified Professionals

Okay the last few were stretching it...

Oh... you meant the FBI... uhhh didn't you?

Citizen Databases are a crime...

[jeff13]

Recently in Canada, the Ontario Tories were embarrassed by a news story pointing out that the databases recording sensitive information about Canadians was suddenly combined into one accessible mass. Even the social insurance number info, the centre of all federal services in Canada (every Canadian carries a card with this on it). One poor old veteran of the Korean Conflict was denied pension because he appeared on a voting list showing he recently voted for the Liberals in provincial election.

It turned into a federal issue and a screaming match in the Commons.
Shame, shame, shame !!!

A database on the citizens of a community is wrong, if only because one can never predict what a given government will do with that information. All databases, in order to protect information properly as well as the human rights of the individual, must be specific about the info it has on a person. Only pertinent info, no links to further information, databases, etc. It could be used to "profile" a person. Not good.

National Security, oh yeah...

[Anonymous Coward]

What about personal privacy? Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness? I have a few four letter words for those three letter agencies.

Echelon? What's that?

[Robotbeat]

Echelon is nothing. My dad sold them computer equipment and serviced it, too (well, they didn't tell him it was Echelon, but what else would you have a server with a database that searches through the email of the whole country for?). Sure, Echelon is spying on all of our electronic communications, but what we should really be worried about is MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL!!! (the MLBB part is from the Simpsons)

Hope it's better than ours...

[goldspider]

I work for a branch of the government (I don't wish to disclose which one) and we recently purchased Oracle 9i products. All I can say is that I hope the unnamed gov't department has better luck with it than we've had.

So far the website initiative we are developing using Oracle Portal has been one disappointment after another. While I understand the 9i database software is working fine, other components of the package have simply fallen flat on its face, particularly a serious compatibility issue with Solaris servers.

The way I see it, the government is probably, for once, getting what it's paying for. Nothing.

Larry's help

[gauron23]

Just take a look at Larry's proposed National ID card.

Free software databases have been available longer

[Anonymous Coward]

Free software databases have been available to the US Government and everyone else for a long time now. It's telling that this didn't make headlines here.

Oracle obviously isn't making their software free software, so why should the US Government trust that the Oracle software doesn't have back doors or other problems? One would think the US Government would want to know every detail about the software they're being asked to run a national service on. But I guess this isn't much of a surprise: every day US Government offices put sensitive data on computers running proprietary software.

The answer is...

[Kjella]

What happens if one of the coders at Oracle was having a bad day, and added a backdoor to the database, and then publishes the path to it on the Internet?

Exactly the same as if you replace "Oracle" with "NSA"

Conditional?

[nettdata]

I'm betting that while the software is "free", there's probably some condition that says Oracle Consulting will have to do the work.

As everybody in the Oracle Financials world knows, buying Financials is only a small percentage of it's cost. Just wait until you see how much it costs to get it installed and configured!

Larry is a lot of things, but stupid isn't one of them.

This can only be writted by a Coward

[Anonymous Coward]

ETA is a Terrorist Group.
Kills policement and politics, but also children, men and women.

Sounds consistent to me

[Anonymous Coward]

Oracle was founded to provided the CIA with an implementation of the Relational Database invented by IBM. So there willingness to provide the government with big-brother software is no suprise, it's consistent with their roots. Why IBM spent millions of dollars inventing the concept of Relation Databases (System R*Star?), published the specification for anybody to use, and then didn't develop a product themselves (DB2) until after Oracle proved it could be commercially successful has always been beyond my comprehension. Yes, Oracle was built on an idea ripped off from IBM, but all I can say is shame on IBM for letting them get away with it.

Do not trust the government

[Loundry]

So you trust yourself, but not the government. Fine, the government trusts itself, and but you.

I definately do not trust the government! The government is the only entity with the legal right to use force to acheive its goals. Unless the government is comprised of infallible angels, it needs less power, not more.

In the past 100 years, over 180 MILLION people have been killed by their own governments. What makes you think that current governments are going to be any better? The humans who lead the current governments are drawn out of the same barrel of "fallible humans" that the humans who led the Stalinist, Maoist, Khmer Rouge, and Nazi regimes were drawn from.

Clueless In SlashdotLand

[duralexsedlex]

Frederick the Great, king of Prussia, once remarked: "If I wanted to punish a province, I would give it to philosophers to govern.". Would he be living today, he might have added geeks to his list of pathetic utopians.

What is supposed to be so outrageous about these news? I guess that the media-crazed Ellison is being a bit opportunistic here, but his move will certainly save the CIA and NSA loads of money. Anywhere but in SlashdotLand or the pages of Le Monde, especially since 9-11 has shown us that the NSA isn't so omniscient after all, this would be good news.

Ah, but yes.

Michael and his co-paranoids think that the NSA, CIA and the rest of the "military-industrial complex" have nothing better to do than snooping on their PGP- (oh sorry, GPG-) encrypted mail, or hacking into their computers to scan their porn and mp3 collections for copyright infringements. Ergo, let's abolish the CIA and the NSA!

Don't you guys know that there's a war going on and that the intelligence agencies are actually quite busy now finding and precision-bomb terrorists? And that, if they have some spare time, they might prefer to try to find out what the Chinese, Saudi, or Iraqi governments are up to?

Oh well. September 11 didn't changed everything.

Worst Case it's a tax write off for them

[spongebob]

He can't lose.... Unless it's the America's Cup.

I saw him with his boat on CNN today. He is going to be the driver. :)

Saving money?

[Loundry]

Even if there is no 'National ID card' information, Ellison saved our government lots of money by giving us expensive software.

It is not "saving money" to give "free" software to a newly-created government program. "The program may cost $40 million, but hey, we got a free database!" It seems clear to me that saving money would have happened by never creating the program in the first place.

If we really wanted our government to save money, we'd end the War on (Some) Drugs immediately and release any prisoner who was convicted solely on drug possession charges.

Oh, Oracle? Ah, nothing to worry about

[Lobsang]

If big brother depends on Oracle to retrieve and consolidate your data, rest assured your privacy is safe...

:)

Oracle.Net?

[Peteresch]

Does anyone know if Elison & Gates have been talking to each other? I can just see it...

Oracle convinces Gov to use national ID card

Microsoft signs deal to merge Oracle database with Passport and .Net services

Oracle controls the largest personal information collection ever.

Microsoft convinces Government that Windows is required on all computers to keep information confidential

Government forbids the use of any other OS

Of course some see them as opposites.

... Gates never lobbied for a law requiring that every person in the United States be forced to use Internet Explorer.

Really Targeted Advertising

[Peteresch]

Would National ID cards raise the advertising revenue for /. by showing me adds that fit my profile?

Amiga CIA TLAs

[xixax]

Hmm.... so you mean the CIA chips in my Amiga *weren't* Complex Interface Adapters? No wonder serial.device was so damn slow, it was sending my cache file to Washington the whole time.

Antti

did the Nazi SS use a database?

[Anonymous Coward]

or did they use the already well established paper storage and tracking methods of the time? Mmm... me thinks that this is yet another example of confusing ideas and implementations. Nothing new here folks... move along!

Re:Lum

[whirred]

You forgot to mention that BSD is dying, and how unfunny most slashdot posts with a "+5, Funny" actually are.

which 3 letter agency?

[NeoCode]

..I bet it went to another 3-letter group.

FBI, DoD, NSA ??!