Slashdot Mirror
Scientists Claim Organs Grown From Stem Cells
Llywelyn writes: "It appears that some scientists in the United States are claiming that they have been able to grow functional organs (kidneys) from cloned cow embryotic stem cells. They have not yet released details on how exactly they did this, nor have they yet provided evidence for their claims, but admit to being only in the `proof of concept' phase in research. I guess we'll see down the road if this is legit or the increasingly common `Science by Press Release.'"
I've done it, and you can't see my evidence!
Sorry, can't consider it news until we see evidence.
For all we know, they are raving lunatics, or just getting media attention for more grant money.
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
Imagine a Beowulf cluster of these... :)
Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
Maybe...
Pedro Côrte-Real.
Ah... So we can break the laws of nature by replicating that which cannot replicate themselves, and this is immediately heralded as fact, but when we break the laws of Physics, it's immediately hailed as idiocy?
Excellent world we live in.
"I guess we'll see down the road if this is legit or the increasingly common `Science by Press Release."
After consulting the magic 8 ball, I have to say the latter is probably true.
I would guess that money got a little tight and this is a good way to get more cash for research...
Or, could be I am tired of hearing about companies that make claims with no proof.
Sent from your iPad.
This company is the same one that claimed to have cloned human embryos, so we're already aware of their preference of press releases to peer-reviewed journals.
...that I will be able to grow my own crop of Big Macs in a few years?
"Adequacy.org: Where congenital stupidity is not an option, but a requirement."
Great, now I finally will be able to clone my pet kidney that was ran over by a runaway penguin.
redune.com: The World 3.2 Megapixels at a time
...that you'll have to obtain new Windows/Office XP licenses if you clone more than one organ within some window of time.
Exactly what are they supposed to be breaking?
...well, just bite me!
How come when some idiot claims to have broken the laws of thermodynamics we don't get any religious morons.
But the instant someone mentions a stem cell or almost any discovery related to biology, they come aplenty...
Are you afraid of going to hell or something?
all of my organs were grown from stem cells.
My mom didn't even need a petri dish.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
Your girlfriend will find great happiness in your new "organ"...
...in bed.
It appears that some scientists in the United States are claiming that they have been able to grow functional organs (kidneys) from cloned cow embryotic stem cells.
Hmm i can see it now.... a can of spam that refills itself after you've eaten it...
I've found a way to transfer a googol of data in one second. I'm not ready to release a product yet, or hold public or private demos. But I can tell you that we've done some preliminary experiments involving filling a semi with CDRs and transporting the data for several feet. All we need to do is to refine the process so it doesn't require a 18 wheeler and trillions of CDRs and we'll have a revolutionary product. At out current rate we should have something by Q1 2003.
You can become a part of this exciting development by sending $100,000,000.00 to PayPal account #235224975645.
I should start answering those emails that promise me a brand new organ? I always thought it was a sex thing.
Disclaimer: MINAA (Mummy! I'm Not An Animal!)
Who would have thought i could eventually have a penis transplant thanks to an aborted fetus!
Anyone else see a "straw into gold" parallel?
----
"I hate it when Aztecs force themselves into your hotel room and make you try on belts."
Vaporwetware...or is that Wetvaporware....or is that what my son leaves in his diaper?
If it ain't a Model M, it's a piece of crap.
The news come from ATC, the same company that pretended having cloned a human in november. However, these claims were probably premature. We should be skeptical about this kidney thing... publishing fist in New Scientist is not exactly standard for serious scientific results.
My take on this "science by press release" is that they are doing it for political reasons. Stem cell research is controversial, and they want to campaign in favor of it by showing the public that it can have huge benefits. Imagine if everyone that had kidney trouble was able to get a transplant! Now doesn't that make you want to support stem cell research?
... do you still think stem cell research is a bad thing?
oh yeah! It was "Hey guys we have finally achieved cold fusion.
Like previously stated, I will believe it when I see it in the journals.
Argh. The laws of science be a harsh mistress.
"Increase your penis size with a GENETICALLY IDENTIAL yet LARGER replacement! Easy out-patient surgery! Guaranteed 100% genetically compatible!! grow-a-schong@geneticpenis.com"
Ugh...
Mr. Ska
There are plenty of reasons not to release information, mostly monitary, but some less 'greedy'.
5 21 3&mode=thread
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/01/27/213
They have not yet released details on how exactly they did this, nor have they yet provided evidence for their claims
What are the bets they're waiting to make sure the the DMCA won't jump on them for circumventing nature's genetic code?
Sell that extra kidney you have till it's still worth something.
British kidney experts are sceptical about the possibility that ACT has re-created the kidney in its entirety. ... It is possible that the company had made a simpler structure that could still produce urine, he said.
Even a incomplete organ would be better than nothing if it results in better treatment than dialysis every few days.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Naw, that wouldn't sell. 2 for 1 is the same as 50% off.
Ouch!!
.
although this announcement seems a bit early on the research curve for me right now. I suppose an organ like a kidney would be slightly easier than a section of intestine, or something like that.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
That the scientists are keeping their data and techniques close to their chest is no great surprise. I do the same thing with my research data when it is an incomplete state, because you can't risk someone with better resources stealing your idea and taking the credit. It is a sorry state of affairs, and really just an indication of how all science will eventually end up. More and more PhD students are having to sign secrecy agreements with the people that fund them. Information flows (of useful data) will end up less than they are now in the future because of this. Information Superhighway, BAH!
Some of use vegetarians don't eat meat for non-wussie
reasons. Personally, I don't believe in eating meat that I don't kill. Why ? I feel that today's society
consideres death-by-proxy to be fine. All part of the desensitization people have to violence.
To me, growing meat in a vat is just sick. If you want
to eat meat, kill something. If that idea disgusts you,
why eat what someone else killed ?
The new baby-sized heart is also going to have difficulty pumping blood around your adult-sized body.
It would be better to read the article and realise they're growing individual organs, not whole mammals.
But I refuse to share my results or make them available in any way for peer review, because I have chosen money over credibility within the scientific community.
Seriously, there are good reasons the established scientific publishing system esists. Results are published and processes are defined for peer review in order to confirm findings. This is a perfectly reasonable and effective process that has worked for decades. The argument that the only ay you can make money with a scientific result is a falacy. Intellectual property laws have never been stronger. Patent law has never been stronger and many prescidents have been set with regard to patenting of gene sequences. There really is no excuse for failing to disclose findings in this day and age.
--CTH
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
Imagine a beowulf cluster of these?
When death looks you in the eye, smile. Someone needs to cheer him up.
for a clone of Brittney Spears early so as to avoid the rush.
just to produce urine?
what, like there's a urine shortage?
It's supposed to be completely automatic, but actually you have to press this button.
This is an unfortunate new trend in the research world. Companies are releasing these press papers just as a way of attracting investors and getting public exposure.
Why is it that you people see the world black and white?
Either all health care is private or it is public.
The so called socialist European nations provide reasonably good public health service but the private sector is available to those who can afford to pay.
The owls are not what they seem
Cool....I can get that Hammond B3 I've been after now!
-----------------------
Moderator's essentials
I seem to recall hearing once that the kidney has certain regenerative abilities that no other organ has. I remember hearign that with only a few cell that scientist were able to grow many more kidney cells like 50 years ago. this was not a working kidney just a bunch of cells. Could someone verify this?
Can they grow pianos?
Best Slashdot Co
I don't care about the organs... Just set me up with a replacement for my borked teeth! That's all I ask. I know this is an entirely attainable goal, as teeth have been found to grow on teratomas (benign tumors that grow from sperms or ovum)
Please! No more of this stainless-anchored porcelain crap! Set me up with the real thing!
I hate Grammar Nazi's
...the fact that /. jumps on any nifty-sounding press release and presents it as science doesn't help.
We need a new category, "Unconfirmed Rumors," for these sorts of news reports.
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
what is ment by functional? Does that mean will do what kidneys do in a human? Cow? Sheep? Panda? Or what?
I know that kidneys are one of the _easier_ (like replacing organs is easy [ atleast not for me =^ ] )... but you still have to find a compatible donor .... I wonder how these would fair....
It's actually forbiden to use artificial hormones in cattle.
There is actually a row going on on the WTO between the US and the EC about this - the US want to export hormone fed beef to Europe, the EC says no.
If you don't consider the fact that we were trying to grow brains.
They should just get together with the perpetual motion machine guy from a few weeks back and together eliminate death and hardship via free energy and organ transplants.
Or just get a bunch of free publicity.
It is possible that the company had made a simpler structure that could still produce urine, he said.
At least now we can reduce our dependency on foreign urine.
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball(TM)
Cool, so next time Kenny gets a ruptured spleen, Dr. Mephisto can just clone him a new one using stem cells. Before the rats cart him off!
After having friends die of cancer in non-replacable organs or watching babies being born with spinal bifida or even the drunk driver that takes my friends kidney...I don't care if this is fact or fiction.
:)
It gives me hope..
And since i can't demand huge sums of cash for my coding skillz anymore thats all I have
If I were only smart enough to accomplish the things I dream about.. Or maybe too dumb to care.
I know these are a waste of time, just be glad that they also don't release phantom press releases for each individual thought they have!
Item: GlobalCorp Underling Dave Withelm claims that he is favoring chinese food for dinner, and announces that he may or may not release his reasoning in a future press release.
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Today's Top Deals
Even if they did't do it persay, I'm sure they did something... otherwise a claim like this is just plain stupid. I have a feeling what they probably did is take the cow stem-cells and create kidney cells out of them... not a full kidney. Of course reporting that to the media really isn't all that big of a deal considering that the whole point of stem-cells is the ability to create new cells from them (which has already been done). So they just say hey we made a kidney (which they didn't) but we're still in the testing phase so we can't show it. In actuality they made kidney cells which theoretically can be made into a new kidney. I could be wrong... but it seems likely, usually scientific claims like this turn out to be greatly exagerated. Now for some moral issues about stem cell. I suppose I just don't see what the big deal is. Think about it in the terms of life and death. The best stem cells come from feti, hence abortion. Now those babies are already dead once aborted. If those cells can be used to save the life of a living person instead of sitting in a landfill then I believe there is an obligation to save those lives. I think the whole govt problem with saying stem cells are legal is that if stem cell research from embriotic tissue is legalized then they are affectivly saying that abortion is legal which politically isn't exactly a wise thing to do. IMHO of course but... seems possible.
can't sleep slashdot will eat me
Back in the day, people believed in the 4 elements of earth, air, fire, and water. Why? Well, because somebody said so.
They believed that frogs came from mud, that life just arrived, that the sun went around the earth, and many other things.
Then the Scientific Method came along, and it was a simple idea:
1. Conduct an experiment with two groups, and only change 1 thing in each group.
2. Compare the results. If the majority of the groups with the different variable are truly different, you can possibly attribute that result to your variable.
3. Publish your results and show the world exactly what steps you took.
4. Other people recreate your experiment. If they get the same conclusions, then your theory may be correct.
5. If others find a different way to prove/disprove your theory, then eventually the Truth can be decided.
In the end, that's what science and the scientific method are all about. The search for the Truth. Is it the only method? Probably not - there are many truths in the universe we can't prove under the microscope.
But is it the best way that fallible humans can use to attain Truth? So far, yup. And as long as the real scientists don't forget that, we don't have to worry about "science by press release".
52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
So I can start using more drugs.
Thats what I want to know.. my current one is pretty shot.
In some of Sam Delaney's books, people do just that. Especially prized is the meat from celebtrities' DNA.
It could be science by
-- SIGFPE
ACT is not the friendly non-profit down the street supported by charity and gov't grants and staffed with university-affiliated researchers. The charities don't have this money and the US gov't is trying to decide if it should tolerate or squash these folks and in the meantime is such a slow & conflicted funding mess they're not worth the bother. And academia - they've either lost many of their best and brightest to these shops or are desperately trying to form "partnerships" in order to keep in the loop and when it rains gravy to catch a few drops.*
Rather there's lots of hungry investors with deep pockets willing to invest and get these folks the best equipment and shield them from committees and reviews and university politics and such until they're ready to ship. All these folks have to do is get cracking and produce some encouraging results regularly which in ACTs case is what they are doing.
Were their previous results controversial? Yes - possibly overstated. Is this one - possibly again. They've grown *something*, possibly successfully, possibly not. Nobody knows exactly what yet but that's not ACTs point, theirs is that they've even gotten this far. When they find out if it works then they'll announce that too but they're just announcing all of their milestones as they go along.
So why are they doing this? PR. Not just the we-need-funds PR that so many folks are used to seeing (ACT seems fine that way) but also the Hey-the-21st-century-is-coming-at-you way so when ACT does have something to sell the market is ready to buy. Those nice comfortable theoretical debates are becoming much realer much faster then anyone imagined and it's in ACTs interest to have they and the market mature when a product is availiable.
Finally - why aren't the procedures and details being released? Because this is leading-edge privately funded research worth billions. If the public wants access to it then it can darn well pay for it. No money for uneasy biotech and too bizarre a regulatory climate and it'll happen anyway just without public participation and without sharing.
The Genie is out of the bottle kids. Either work with it to shape it to needs and values at its rate of growth or fail to keep up and lose all control.
-- Michael
* For the computer-centric folks this is the same as happened to CS departments in the 80's & 90's. All of the action moved out to industry along with the silly money. If you wanted in on the action you had to get off campus. Nobody has ethical concerns if Cisco announces a routing breakthrough unlike biotech announcing a grown organ but it's really the same business model applied to a different field.
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
If scientists saved some of John Holmes' stem cells. If we're going to grow organs, we may as well do it right.
As bhudda would say, it is balance. Doing things in extreme is the problem. People really should clean a fish and slaughter an animal once in their life. The next time they think about wasting food, they'll remember a creature died for it. What I find disturbing about the meat industry is the sanitary appearance. People should be reminded creatures die for meat every time they go shopping. In other cultures, the idea of santinized meats is considered wrong and offensive.
"To some people meat tastes bad in the same way some people don't like vegetables."
I'm one of them. But in any case, I'd have to say it's better than placenta stew. Recipes available on web (really). It's acceptable because no harm is deliberately done to the animal. The recipe I read suggested using only your own placenta, though.
gm
Ad luna, Alicia! Ad luna!
Of course there's an excuse. By disclosing how you've done something, you may provide the missing piece of the puzzle to another research firm. Suddenly, they're the ones holding a patent for cloning human kidneys, and you're stuck with an endless supply of cow kidneys. All those untold millions of dollars from dialysis patients wanting new kidneys will wind up in someone else's pockets.
"I'm not impatient. I just hate waiting." - My Dad
Natural boobs for implantation (then no jealous girl staring a great set of fakes can ever bemoan that they are fake out of jealousy cleverly disguised as self assurance in their own looks and disgust over someone else not being comfortable with their own set), gills (great for lifeguards), penis extensions (nuff said), new eyes for the blind (not a bad idea, if you can get around the nagging issue of nerve cell regeneration for the optic nerves), etc...
Awsome!
Now, lets see the evidence...
Why is Commander Taco and his obnoxious Goat Sex postings even allowed? Some one get a towel and wrap that poor blighter's head... he needs therapy and /. needs to filter that crap out.
Some people have to make sure that whatever they are attacking has been tied to the ground before they attack it. These people are incapable of hitting any sort of moving target.
I suppose that these people can't really be blamed for making faulty arguments. It's not their fault that they are mentally deficient.
My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
The article is rather pessimistic, stating that it's unlikely for the scientist to have duplicated the complex design of a kidney, and that they might've generated something that would produce urine but wouldn't be practical.
I'm more optimistic. A kidney consists of nephrons arranged with one end attached to a capillary, able to access the blood stream, and the other to a duct eventually leading to the ureter. While it would be difficult, using current technology, to grow an exact replacement of a kidney, growing a sheet or row of nephrons would be much simpler and would still be effective.
Assuming this announcement isn't a complete hoax, I believe we're closer to culturing kidneys than the article indicates.
The problem is in the idea of a "research firm". :-)
I find that Safeway brand veggie lasagna to be way ahead of the value-brand lasagna pack. If you have a chance, I highly recommend it.
Soon, the day will come when people will live about 300 years. Every time something breaks down in your body, they'll just push a button and grow you a new one. Cut off your arm in a bandsaw? No problem! A new one will be ready in 30 minutes. In fact, you won't even have to wait that long after something goes wrong. Every person will simply have spare parts in their garage refrigerator, kind of like keeping extra sparkplugs around. Just call the paramedics and they'll cruise on over and install your new organs on site. So, if all this becomes possible, why will you only live 300 years? Because eventually, your brain will start going haywire, and if they install a new one, it won't contain your data, so it would be like a newborn baby in a 300 year old body. Of course, they'll be working on that problem, but it'll be a while before they got it all figured out.
I mean those guys in Scotland can grow two kidneys at a time from cloned embryotic stem cells. And you get a bunch of saleable mutton as a by-product of their process to boot. Bet the economics work a lot better than what these guys are doing..
Colleagues have already succeeded in cloning cells, causing them to differentiate into cartilege, and then, using an ear shaped scaffold, making an artificial ear; but only an artificial outer ear! It is basically a plastic surgery technique, the inner ear is too complicated to be made by this method.
coaxed the stem cells into becoming kidney cells, and then "grew" them on a kidney-shaped scaffold.
What he is saying is that he made a kidney-shaped lump of meat out of kidney cells. This is NOT the same as a kidney, even if it squirts out "urine".
Some of these kidney cells have a directional orientation which you cannot duplicate with a scaffold - without getting too technical, these cells are adjacent to two tubes, one tube which carries proto-urine and one tube which carries blood. The cell has to know which is which.
Even if the cells don't know which is which, and if the tubes are there, they might still produce something that looks kinda like urine, just because they allowed the contents of the artificial proto-urine tube to become isotonic (equal in content of water and salt) with the blood. I will say - if what these kidneys made was "good" urine, the people at Advanced Cell Technology would release it's contents in a second. There is no way that anyone could steal whatever trade secrets they have based on the quality of the urine their artificial kidneys produce.
Kudos again to the New Scientist for raising these concerns.
The good and new comes from no quarter where it is looked for, and is always something different from what is expected.
i grew a *whole cow* out of an embryo! let's see 'em beat that!
According to The Washington Post coverage:
8 26 4-2002Jan29.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wpdyn/articles/A5
They aren't disclosing exact methodology because they believe it will hurt their chances of journal publication- which, although it may not be the entire truth, is in fact a valid reason. Also, the Post article contains quite a bit more detail than the one from The New Scientist; it's worth checking out.
(And dammit, Slashcode keeps putting a space in the URL, I don't know why, it shouldn't be there)
Thermowax
If I were determined to make money off of this I wouln't publish either. Organs are rather complex and probably signifigantly more difficult to reverse engineer than anything found in pill form, so releasing any information as to how the actual process works is a potentially serious loss of money.
Its about goddam time, My sone , who is now 5 had a liver transplant at 9 months old. He had a disease called billiary atresia. There is no singular known cause, and no treatment except liver transplant, which does resolve the problem, as it is confined to the liver.
.....THERE IS NO MONEY IN IT FOR THE DRUG COMPAINES !, THE SAME WENT FOR ALTERNATIVE TX OPTIONS. This is horeshit.
We HAD a Living related donor TX for genetic matching reasons amongst others, my wife was actually genetically closer, so they whacked the left latteral lobe from her.
He has suffered NO rejection to date (98% of ALL liver TX have rejection to some degree in the first 14 days) he didnt even have that. NOW Liver rejection is much different from kidney or heart rejection, hyper-acute rejection (all of a sudden really bad) rarley happens then only early post TX. Livers can be in rejection for months and the patient not even know. Damage will be done if it isnt caught, but Liver regection is nearly ALWAYS controllable from and anti rejection standpoint.
NOW, wehn he was diagnosed I asked WHY in gods name wasnt there a cure, the answer very simple, from the then Head of UNOS (all organs are allocated from here) and the #2 ranked transplan surgeon in the world
The DRUGS to sustain liver TX arent cheap, kidneys and hearts are multitudes worse and the only ones worth a crap are pateneted. old crap like cyclosporin is fine if every 3 years you want to have your gums cut back (it makes em grow) and dont mind having ONE HUGE eyebrow(no shit) The pharm companies arent going to like this at all, I can see them lobbying hard against this forno other reason to save their profit centers.
Things happen , my sons chances and survival rate is exellent this far out from TX with no roblems (liver related) but if there is ever an injury he is much more succepible to liver necrosis, because he was given a liver half from a living person they could only take 1/2 the blood vessels, if he EVER has to be Re-TX I hope he could have his own genes in it and rejection would be a non issuse
Sig went tro...aahemmm.....fishing........
Yeah, how dare people try to make money off their work.
There seems to be some confusion regarding press releases and actual scientific publication. As a scientist, I feel a slight obligation to try to clear this up a little for those that don't work in science. Press releases are made quickly and don't really require anything backing them up. Publishing in a scientific journal requires something to back up your claims, and it takes months, sometimes over a year, from the time the experiments are finished to the time anyone reads it. These people with the kidney are announcing their work to the press, but no one in the scientific community will take them seriously if they don't publish it somewhere real or somehow demonstrate their claims in a rigorous manner. There are reasons that a lab would choose to release their work to the press, such as wanting to stake their claim as the first group to get it working, maybe to hype their real results with investors, etc. But to say this is some big growing trend that's ruining science by replacing peer-reviewed publication with news releases is simple bullshit.
It's not their fault that they are mentally deficient.
No, it's the damn public health-care system.
I have a few unscientific thoughts on Stem cells. They are not about the morality, that I will leave to people with morals or the money to influence morals. 1. Our DNA in cells "fray", over time, as the cells grow and divide. Could this fraying leave extra "unattached" DNA floating around, and could this "unattached" DNA connect to other DNA and confuse it as to it's purpose. Causing Cancer or Diseases. Could they not compare my "adult stem cells" to the cancerous ones and create a repair? I understand that this may only work for one person but would it work? 2. If stem cells are just "first run" or "virgin" cells that have intact "perfect" DNA thus allowing them to become any cell form as they grow. Then why can they grow these strains for research causing them to grow and divide? Are they not just aging the cells to the point of "fraying dna"? If this is going to cause fraying DNA, it may be an argument for continued creation and harvesting of new strains. Thanks for the place to voice my thoughts, Slashdot
Peter
Technology Translator for Stupiduser.com
What does replacement organs have to do with this?
Tell women of child bearing age to take vitamins.. this is entirely preventable.
I can see the spam coming already:
FW: Replace your penis!
Genetic labs inc. have found a way to replace your existing penis with one custom grown to your specifications! Don't mess around with fake enlarger pumps that do not reproduce results! Grow your own, with your very own penis growing kit! Comes in a variety of shapes and colors! Order now!
Bah!!!!
i guess....
;-)
...all that spam i get in my mailbox about penis enhancements are actually true
my blog
Last thing I heard from developmental biology/biochemistry, they hadn't yet euclidated all of the sub-steps involving thousands of hormones/enzymes/genetic control mechanisms required to turn a tissue into an organ. Sure, we can take some stem cells, hit them with some chemicals and have them start to make kidney cells or neurons or endothelial cells. Convincing these kidney cells to form an organ, however, is a HUGE leap which requires stem cells becoming vascular tissue ( +3 types of cells) and protective sheathing ( +2 types of cells) and accessory nervous/vacular connections ( +2 types of cells). Has anyone made these types of cells? Not that I know about.
Good news is - this type of human-controlled development is possible in C. elegans, a worm. We have sequenced it's entire genome http://www.sanger.ac.uk/Projects/C_elegans/ and more importantly, we know where every single cell in the adult originated from - starting with a 4-cell zygote. PubMed Abstract Link
Maybe in 20 or more years we will have this knowledge for some "higher" animal - Maybe even a vertebrate! Then we can start to understand human organ development.
"One touch of Darwin makes the whole world kin." George Bernard Shaw
For God's sake, do not kill us! We surrender!
quoting from rw: Before dawn in Afghanistan last Thursday, US Green Berets launched a surprise attack on their unarmed allies, storming a disarmament depot with indiscriminate fire, then rounding up survivors only to tie their hands behind their backs with plastic bands and execute them. This according to that America-hating, propaganda-strewn leftist rag, The New York Times. God bless America.
(yes, I'm very much abusing my 50 karma account and spamming this message all over the place with a +1 bonus. People need to read it, ok? Read the fucking nytimes link. Thanks for your time.)
___
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason. --Ben Franklin
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... Liver and onions!!!
Alright Chuckie, I'll rise to the bait. The town is located in the core area of Taliban support. As stated in your link, the villagers disposed of the evidence, then started making charges. The former benficiaries of the Taliban's largess say one thing, the U.S military says another.
Gee, if it's all right with you, I'm going to take our guys word for it. I mean, I know it's a stretch, because we all know American soldiers are genocidal psychopaths, unlike the peace loving angels that are the armed men of every other nation, but just this once I'm going out on a limb.
THE YEAR WAS 2081, and everybody was finally equal...
Just like the Schmoo in L'il Abner !!
http://www.lil-abner.com/shmoo.html
Could someone hurry up and clone me a steak? Please????
ubi dubium ibi libertas.
You don't seriously think that lab-growing meat will mean fewer hormones / chemicals, do you?
Flesh doesn't grow at all without certain hormonal and chemical triggers. Don't convince yourself that this meat will just spontaneously occur - the cells will have to take their nutrients from something in order to grow; and they will have to take their instructions (telling them what to make) from somewhere: this flesh will be grown in a "bath" of god-knows-what in a lab somewhere.
Pass the lettuce. *groo*
If I can just have a third set of teeth, I promisepromisepromise I will take good care of them and floss and brush and stuff pleasepleaseplease.
And let the angel whom thou still hast serv'd tell thee ...
I think the key that a lot of people are missing is that this experiment did not use embyronic stem cells. The Washington Post says:
Scientists have not gained that kind of power over cow stem cells yet. So in the latest experiments the team grew the cloned embryos to an early fetal stage, at which point they were able to identify immature cells starting to turn into kidney cells.
I think that most researchers would consider this highly unethical to do in humans. Anti-abortion people, even those who are cool with embryonic stems cells, would consider this murder for organ-harvesting. I'm on the fence, I'd lean towards this a being OK, but we would all be happier to do with from embryonic stem cells and not from fetal proto-kidney cells.
yeah and next they'll be claiming they can claim sheep too! ha!
I thought it said "Scientist clown organs grown"
very strange visuals.
-- Why should I question authority?!
I'm wondering if such a technique could also be used in meat-production?
If it becomes cheaper, perhaps this could be used to grow the ultimate steak in some sort of meat factory without the need of suffering of real animals. Imagine: even some vegetarians would have an excuse to eat meat again (some really like to eat some meat sometimes).
I have a fairly interesting insight into this.
You are correct, from the standpoint of financials you are somewhat correct.
What you do not realize is pharm. companies are not trying to find cures for hadly anthing, intentionally, other than to release long term treatments based on those findings. My uncle , whom I spent summers with from the time I was 7-17, was/is a major player in drug delivery systems, he holds over 200 patents. He INVENTED, and DEVELOPED the transdermal delivery system you see in "patches" while at Ciba Geigy, first known as transderm nitro, then the motion patch transderm scopolomine. Long and short he retired, that lasted all of about 5 minutes, before he was hired by a company out west , where he wintered in his retirment. He now does nothing but push drugs and systems through FDA approval, funny he wont take anything but asprin , he knows , and is partly responsible for pushing this crap through.
Pharm. companies would MUCH rather have a LONG term treatment regimin than a cure, they do actually specifically gear their programs to thoses ends. There are exceptions, but fewer and fewer. Cancer treatments have advance little in the last 20 years, the techiniques yes, the actual treatments no. There is as reason , chemo is EXPENSIVE, a drug company would much rather string you along 2 years even if you die in the end , than cure you with one fell swoop. More and more research monies are going into private efforts to goals on intentionally prolonging these ends.
My son also had cancer, neuroblastoma, I am aware all to closley with these problems.
I have a genetic blood disorder, it requires being bled monthly. The FDA last year APPROVED donor blood of my type for blood recipient use, it is not harmfull in the least and actually carries almost double the hemoglobin. NOW that said the Red Cross STILL requires, and has no intention of CHARGING for "theraputic" blood draws. Why , it is a profit center , lets see, 50k-100k people in the US with my problem currently seeking treatment. 1 x a month 12 month in a year 30 bucks a crack,thats 18 to 36 million a year. Now there is a wayy around it find a doctor that will lie and say you have surgery upcoming and need to self donate. This is dumb as hell and a pain.
What I see as the problem isnt a misdirection of resources to a rare disease. That I can understand and accept. THE PROBLEM IS GREED , AT THE COST OF THE QUALITY OF HUMAN LIVES FOR PROFIT. Intentionally witholding of research and findings that IS happening, because, there is more money in treatment. The pharm companies are PAYING LOBBYISTS to STOP certain genetic research, under many different arenas cloning, stem cell research etc. Many of these companies financials are open to an extent. Really funny thing is I almost , took a job at a company that they lobby through. That wasnt why I didnt take the job, funnily enough the GOP and MS actually use their services too to set up , wanna know what their business is......this is a doosey and legal too. They set up fake "grass-roots" lobbying efforts and PAY high buck lobbyists to work setting up unsuspecting citizens to become and Autonomous grass roots campaign, the "Leaders" of these campaigns are even unaware where the money came , and what the actual purpose of it is. (YOU WOULD BE FUCKING AMAZED at what they have pulled off)
Greed, Greed, Greed, capitalism has become synonymous with it , horsehit, greed stands on its own. Companies can make a profit and a nice one without greed, the problems have become companies wield more power in this country that individuals. and as such get away with shit , that if tried by any one single person, would be thrown in jail and wiped over the front page of the local rag so fast it would make your head spin.
Sig went tro...aahemmm.....fishing........
A breast bed!
Just imagine it, so warm and wobbly, and nipples! So many nipples!
-- That which does not kill us has made its last mistake.
However, look at the situation:
Tens of thousands of researchers (yes, including federally funded ones) have been working on cancer treatment, in an effort that has gone on longer than anyone here has been alive. This could be because:
a. Evil capitalist greed is preventing the publication of the many potential cures that are right around the corner.
b. Curing cancer is a really hard problem.
I understand why you're angry enough to guess "a", but I don't think you're right.
If there is a way to extract my bone marrow stem cells without breaking any bones, I will be happy
to offer up a sample of my stem cells for this
company to "clone" a new kidney.
Then we can run jells on it to see if it really
has my genes... or if this is some kind of black
market organ scam.
You do realize you'll have to paste that after every stinking one of kilgore_47's posts for it to be even vaguely effective?
http://www.plif.com/archive/wc263.gif
Yeah, you saw it on PLIF first.
Well, maybe not first, but it rang a bell for me.
-grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
Moderated? Sorry, I neglected to read the part about no metaphores.
I must have missed the part where Hillary's plan jailed people who arrived at private (not public) agreements with doctors for care.
I also must have missed the part where Canada's system did the same thing.
What you call straw men, tying something to the ground before hitting it, I call a real-world horror situation that this country fortunately avoided. To tell someone they cannot negotiate with doctors for better care is completely immoral.
"All representatives are busy. The estimated hold time is one..hundred..sixty..four..minutes." Detroit Edison, 02/01/02