Slashdot Mirror
Bob Young says Linux won't rule the desktop
Wee writes "I just came across this interesting Yahoo interview with Bob Young
in which he says that Linux won't rule the desktop but will instead focus on replacing legacy Unix systems and enhancing Linux's embedded presence. He makes some pretty good points. The oddest quote: "So our opportunity is not to replace Microsoft on the PC. If you've got a perfectly good working PC, why you would go through the angst of replacing it?". Not sure where to start answering that one. My wife (a dedicated Win32 user) liked his car analogy. I need to get her to read 'In the Beginning was the Command Line'..."
yet...
Wait, the author is pointing out the fact that the average mainstream user doesn't want to work harder or relearn PC tasks and GUI's?
Friggin' astonishingly original viewpoint.
------
Today's Top Deals
I don't think one of the primary goals of Linux should be to replace Windows on the Desktop, but rather to offer an alternative Operating System to individuals and corporations who can't (or don't want to) afford the licensing fees and the cost of upgrades.
~.Evanrude
Because I can! Or better yet, why not change? Either way, I like using my Linux desktop. I use Windows for gaming.
Complacency leads to regression. If we aren't always striving to make things better, everything will deteriorate. With a strong Linux desktop push, the price of competing software (Windows and MacOS) will drop, features will increase, and everyone will be better off.
Moderation: Put your hand inside the puppet head!
Desktop is dead. Microsoft owns it and even they are seeing their sales growth slowing.
The future is in the palm of our hands, literally. Small devices are going to be the key to explosive sales in the coming decade. And who is positioned well here?
WindRiver (though talking to an engineer from a company who did business with them, they have LOUSY developer support)
Redhat (it doesn't hurt to be the leading Linux provider in the world)
FSMLabs (creators of RTLinux. Even if they aren't the integrators, they are poised to be exceptional support)
Microsoft (you didn't think the giant was sleeping, did you?)
Maybe it's the Life of Brian... Yeah, where the mobs of people where following him around, claiming that silly and sensible things he would say where completely something else, in the end not listening to reason? Well.. sounds like the linux community.
hehe, RMS could play the guy who sits in the pit for silence. Well, at least with looks.
Contrary to popular belief (at least here), Linux is just not ready for the everyday person's desktop. While it's true that it is getting there, why not focus on it's strengths, and let Linux grow as an OS where it fits in and is accepted?
Windows works. It may not be perfect, but it gets the job done, especially when the job is pure entertainment. That's why I have a computer at home, and I bet that's why a large majority of home computers are bought. I also have a linux partition on there, but I haven't booted into linux in over a year. I simply have no need for it, and everything I use my computer for can be done without problems under windows.
-Space for rent
I may not be able to rule in its current format. But when you look at how much it has improved from 3 or 4 years ago... whats it going to be like.
Is there any reason why a furure version won't have 100% windows compatablity or other features that would make it the best choice for a desktop.
Cruise TT
Only Nixon can go to China.
But I have one too. Everyone thinks different things for Linux. *I* don't think that one person has any say in what should be done.
Sent from your iPad.
Microsoft's .NET will fail
Linux will die hard like many other buzzwords.. it will be a great server OS but never amount to anything on the desktop
The problem that any number of underdog OS's have these days is overcoming consumer inertia. What I mean by that statement is this: once a set of products has hit a certain point and gains consumer acceptance, it is very hard to change the direction that that market is going. Microsoft has done this again and again with both its operating systems and its application suites, both of which are very closely tied together and tend to pull each other along.
What Young is doing is trying to get Red Hat into those markets where there either isn't consumer inertia toward a product or where the market is unsettled. If he can gain acceptance, then his end goal (making money through pushing Linux) is achieved. All in all it is a pretty smart move.
What Linux needs in general is a robust set of applications that consumers can use transparently with Microsoft products. If attractively priced, this could conceivably pull users to the OS, especially in light of Microsofts new licensing trends.
2 more cents down the drain...
Hmmm...
You realize, of course, that he is the CEO of RedHat, the largest, most mainstream Linux distribution in the world. His opinions will shape the RedHat product and people's impressions of Linux in general. His opinion is one of the most highly valued in the community.
Your opinion is worth the crap he scraped off his ass this morning.
While I don't follow Caldera's progress very closely, I'm not sure his view of the SCO acquisition is accurate.
I read at least 1 review of the new OpenUnix when it came out. It seemed to me that they were making a tremendous effort to get the traditional SCO customers to use Linux - with the binary compatibility thing and the "linux mode" - which by the looks of it appears to be Caldera's version of the "user mode linux" project, allowing a user to run a full Linux environment inside primarily a UnixWare back-end.
Ultimately I can see Caldera migrating Unix customers to Linux as well - maintaining support for several similar-but-different products (linux and openunix) seems to be largely counter-productive for them.
Glenn
And one of them raises his hand and says "But, I just don't like this. can I have something different?"
The answer would be no, wouldn't it? Wouldn't that suck as much as the current microsoftopoly?
I don't care if my officemates or my parents or my wife runs Linux. I want the choice to run Linux (and continue to interact with them). I want Linux to be allowed by Microsoft to generate a reasonable enough market share that software vendors work with us, produce drivers, etc.. That's it. I'm not interested in replacing one monopoly with another one.
www.HearMySoulSpeak.com
They should create desktops that "just happen" to use a linux kernel.
Linux is a fine desktop replacement, no worse than Windows or MacOSX. If someone wanted to take on those systems, they needed figure out how to bundle Linux with hardware, attract more developers, and market it. But that isn't even the question.
The real question is: after companies like RedHat have extracted much of the value of Linux and other open source software, where are they going to go? What is their vision for the future? "Replacing X with open source software that magically appears" isn't the answer.
In fact, I doubt that in another 10-20 years, we will even have desktops in the traditional sense, and embedded devices will look very different as well. What kind of vision does Young have for that? Not much, it seems.
Of course, free upgrades for Free software isn't an issue, either. I mean, nobody else does it.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
Linux won't rule the desktop
Gee, I don't know how anyone can say that. Between the consistent user interface, the ease of setting up printing, and the huge game library, Linux is a cinch to take over the desktop computers of the world.
*crickets*
--saint
(I'm just bitter -- still trying to set up CUPS.)
Come on, what do you expect him to say?
"Hey, Microsoft, over here! Point all your fire power at us!! We're trying to steal your cash cow!"
I would like to be able to quote an ancient Chinese saying at this point, but I can't remember any, so I'll make one up: "The stupid young stag challenges the dominant male at every opportunity, and gets his young antlers broken. The wise young stag waits until his antlers are strong, and knows he can win." Whatever.
Despite the progress made by people like Ximian, there is just way to much stuff in the way of new users trying to get familiar with Linux.
Even in something very recent (RH 7.2) I still find the following problems:
And let me clarify, I don't mean that it is not possible for Linux to do these things, only that it is not intuitive for a new user to do so.
Now there are certainly those who would argue that they prefer the system not do so much on their behalf, I agree, which is why there should be a toggle - both the new and advanced user can be satisfied! Right now, they are not.
No, Bob is absolutely right. I will say this again and again and again, but no one seems to be listening:
The desktop wars are over. Move on to the next thing.
So Microsoft has won the "desktop" wars. So what? Do you really think that in 5-10 years, people are still going to be using bulky beige boxes to connect to the Internet? No, they are going to be using everything from home entertainment consoles to cell phones to PDAs.
Some of you may remember the days when a "personal" computer was a joke. "Computers" were those giant hulking things that took up an entire room and required their own cooling system. As Bob says, "Microsoft did not convince people to unplug VMS from their Digital VAX systems in 1979. They took advantage of a major shift in technology toward the PC, and they became the de facto standard on the new technology model, being the PC."
The shift in technology now is smaller, faster, wireless, and pervasive. The idea of 'turning on' a computer to 'use the Internet' will become old-fashioned more quickly than you can imagine. By the time a majority of people think that Linux will be ready to rule the PC world, PCs will be the passe way to connect to the Internet. Microsoft is already expanding in this field with the XBox and the tablet PC (which, IMHO, is a natural evolution of the computer.) Anything that is wireless is huge right now.
This whole desktop war is silly. Linux is its best when people don't even know or care what OS their products are running. Look at TiVo. Do I care that it runs Linux? Nope, because it works flawlessly and doesn't require me to know arcane command line tools. TiVo rocks not because it's Linux, but because it does its job and does it well. That's the problem I have with Linux zealots -- they want Linux regardless of whether Linux fits the job or not.
Why is it necessary to force people to relearn something? Instead of parroting Microsoft, let's be innovative. Let's put Linux into the greatest, coolest new devices (TiVo, PDAs, cellphones.) Let's look at where the market will be in 5 years instead of being hyper-focused on beating Microsoft today. Otherwise, Microsoft and the rest of the world will move on, and Linux will be left behind.
(More about this in my journal.)
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
If you've got a perfectly good working PC, why you would go through the angst of replacing it?
This is a fallacy, assuming "PC"=="PC w/ M$ Windows". M$ Windows is actually the source of much angst; my therapist recommends confrontation followed by a thorough spiritual cleansing.
So our opportunity is not to replace Microsoft on the PC.
Why not?
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
Think about that for a minute before you answer. Think about where desktop computing is and where it's going before you answer.
Today's desktops are stressing ease of use and wide application arrays more than anything else. Stability is in there somewhere, but MS has gotten pretty darn good with Win2K and XP, especially if you stick to their office suites.
Linux is NOT easy to use. Sure, it may be easy for US to use, but imagine a secretary, an HR guy, or (God forbid) the boss trying to use it on a daily basis. Give them XWindows and they'll be somewhat happy, but even the best XWindows setup pales in comparison the features and eye candy you'll find on Win2k and XP. And before you belittle that, remember who the end user is. You and I may not care for it, but the vast unwashed masses out there DO. They will demand it, and they don't give two damns about how configurable your window manager is. They want a box that's pretty and functional. Linux does not currently fit that mold very well.
What does Linux do well? It's an awesome server. It stays up longer than Ron Jeremy and Peter North combined, and a competent admin can tweak and tune it all over the place for practically anything. Trying to force that into the desktop market is the classical definition of fitting a nice, sleek roung peg into a very square hole.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Linux may one day dominate the desktop, but it will not much resemble the Linux we know today. Do we really want that? I'd love to see Linux succeed and trounce MS, but I don't want it to compromise the core principals that make it so good today.
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
RH is not exactly helping to bring Linux to the desktop. I am typing this right now on a RH box and I can easily say that - out of the box - it is not an easy system for a newbie to configure. Where are the GUI tools to set up the resolution, install fonts, set your PATH? Yea, I like this desktop a whole lot, but there needs to be a bit more end-user polish before it goes anywhere. I have looked at ELX and it looks like they have the right idea - maybe RH will see this as a sign to spice up the end-user experience in their OS.
Another thing worth mentioning was the tinge of arrogance Bob Young seemed to show towards the garage-type hacker. Alienating your hard-core developers might not be the best thing to do - but, them again, most of the hard-core Linux developers have probably moved onto other distros.
I hate it when journalists do this crap.
Bob Young says:
So our opportunity is not to replace Microsoft on the PC.
ZDNet reporter Matthew Broersma says:
Red Hat chairman Bob Young says Windows will continue to rule the desktop!
What a crock! That is NOT what Bob Young said. He said that they have an opportunity to expand their business in new directions. Directions that will be of more benifit to RedHat and their customers then "the desktop".
Why is it so hot? Where am I going? What am I doing in this handbasket?
Actually it is ready now. You aren't dealing with ease of use, you are dealing with intellectual laziness. KDE and Gnome (like OS/2 before them, I might add,) are as easy for someone whom has never used a PC to learn as windows. The question is whether people will try something else after they have made their half-assed effort to learn windows already. Somehow people still buy macs (even former windows users,) those type of people may consider something else. So might those who decide they would rather not pay the Redmond tax.
The shame here is that Bob Young has lost some cojones and has decided to to go along with a self-fulfilling prophecy, i.e. Windows is omnipresent and inevitable and cannot be fought. As long as there are those who yell kicking and screaming about the beast, some people will get the message. And an eternal free pass for Microsoft is not fait accompli.
As for no need... I have no need of windows. everything I use my computer for can be done under Linux-- and I am NOT a coder. What exactly I am missing out on? Oh yeah, the helpful hand of Big Brother.
Acquiescence leads to obliteration
Someone should point you to the fact that macosx is a real competitor for windows, and that it is wisely not based on Linux (just to remember its based on freebsd) in order to make things have more sense.
That was a totally irresposible comment for him to make, especially now. KDE is maturing into a viable desktop alternative, the apps that aren't wuite there yet are getting there rapidly, and MicroSoft is screwing themselves out of the marketplace with their XP licensing. Ya gotta wonder about who's paying who these days, first the Gnome/.net stuff, now this... what's next? RMS praising XP?
You can bet your ass that all the M$ salesdroids will have copies of that interview to hand out wherever Linux is being discussed as an option.
Yes it will not rule the desktop. Bob is correct about that. I think in a few years it will be based on quality, available, and innovation rather than monopoly. I think Mac is going the right direction. Linux especially Redhat has been going sidewise in terms of a solid desktop. ....
How long will it be until some PC vendor realizes they can lower the system cost significantly by bundling free software rather than Windows? How long will it be until large businesses realize they can lower their costs significantly by standardizing on free software, and get easier maintenance, and gain additional security to boot?
Windows is a dinosaur, and Microsoft realizes it. That's why they're trying so hard to get monopolies in other markets - they realize they can't continue to count on Windows to provide them with a solid revenue stream.
Ithink Bob Young is simply recognizing a painful truth about the economy and the modern corporation in general. The market belongs to thse who will work for it. Be it stereos or the desktop it takes massive amounts of hard work to create a product with real appeal. Then it takes massive amounts of continuing work to hold that appeal. Microsoft has spent millions of dollars and man hours creating thier desktop vision. They continue to spend incredible amounts of money and programming time refining it. Apple has proven that one can re-enter this market. They have spent the last several years taking a sideline also ran unix and re-tooling it as a desktop OS. It shows. With years of hard work they have made MacOS X a serious desktop alternative. The second truth. Money is where you exploit it. It's really unfair to single out Redhat here but they are a brilliant example. Redhat historicly has looked for areas where they can take an already existing product and with a minimal amount of work exploit and sell it. The internet boom was powered by just such an attitude. What Young is pointing out is that no one seems to be willing to do the immense amount of work of creating a desktop then allowing someone else to sell it. Sure a company COULD make a serious desktop contender out of linux. You would need to hire a few hundred programmers and associated talent and spend a few years working on it. Apple has proved that this is doable. Doubtful though that any linux company will do it since the space seems mostly filled with jump in quick exploiters. The only question remaining is what is the long term health prospects of companies that bottom feed such as redhat?
Bob Young continues to demonstrate a good grasp of the market, and the position linux can best dominate in it. Red Hat has been distinguished by better management (from what we can see) than the other linux companies so far, and Young's ability to move to the market instead of the hype is setting Red Hat apart.
Yeah, sure, I don't see Red Hat Linux ruling the desktop. I installed one not so long ago as a development platform, simply because that's the standard in that company. But truth is, for the desktop, it's crap wehen you compare directly to SuSE. Mandrake is supposedly also excellent on the desktop, just as some of the other distros. My SuSE 7.3 rocks for the desktop, and it's way easier to install than, say, W2K.
Don't go saying Linux is not ready for the desktop when you just know Red Hat or Debian or LFS or so. There are distros out there that _are_ ready. Just go and test them.
N.b. I'm not debunking Debian etc - I love those, but not for the desktop. (Running SuSE, Debian, Red Hat, have tried Mandrake and others.)
Linux does not, and probably will never, focus on anything.. that's what makes it interesting.
No.
Example: install Ximian Gnome, which supposedly represents the 'friendliest' Linux GUI.
Now try right-clicking on a compressed .tar or .tgz file. You'll notice there is no option to decompress such files.
These are very common in Linux land, you'll need to decompress them all the time.
If you use Ximian Gnome and need to decompress that file, you'll need to hop out to the command line and issue a command. If you're new, you'll also have to read the help to learn the appropriate arguments.
That is not user friendly.
A saving grace of having GNU, Linux, BSD, and other free-source-software systems with adequate desktop capabilities will become evident if Microsoft ever abandons that market in its quest for higher profits in another market sector.
At that point, sure, lots of people might not care about the inability to continue using state-of-the-art desktop computer systems, but those who do will, finally, choose free software, because there won't be enough $$$ in selling licenses for the propriety-software market.
(Replace "desktop computer" with "Fortran 77 compiler" and you can put most of the above in the past tense; Microsoft stopped developing its F77 compiler many years ago.)
As the "end of the line" becomes more evident on the horizon, more and more people who do wish to use desktop systems on modern hardware will decide to jump off the MS/proprietary ship, so they can do it on their schedule, not someone else's.
And it's probably the case that this process (of moving off proprietary platforms, even for desktop computing) has already started, even if as a trickle, for exactly these reasons: better to take a small initial re-training cost now than a much-larger cost that inevitably lies somewhere down the road.
Practice random senselessness and act kind of beautiful.
Bob Young doesn't say Linux won't be on the desktop, he just says that it won't directly displace Windows. I believe the jist of his argument is that Linux will become more important and Windows will become less relevant as users move away from the traditional desktop and towards the internet... Providing that .NET doesn't win. If .NET wins, then the battle is over, and user choice and value will be the losers.
whois joined at the hype with the billonlyus wall street of deceit stuck markup? or, is the notoriously InFactDead invasion of privacy liesense filled moneyfunnell m$bugwear gooed enough for every man/hostage in the world? eye gas if b0b says so, IT's gooed enough for me, but i'll just stick(y) with KDE.
Yup, likewise, except it's the windows partition I haven't booted to for a year. At work, now, it's a different story, as the IT guys try to enforce uniformity of platform and OS and software for ease of support. But at home, I can do what I want to and need to, without ever booting into windows. And hell, I rarely have the need to reboot, so the choice isn't staring me in the face. Sure, I'm not the everyday person, but it's more than usable.
--R
Look ma, I'm a
RedHat is making money on these two key areas, which Microsoft isn't that concerned about. Why would RedHat announce they're after the desktop knowing that Microsoft is watching? Press release: "Here at RedHat we believe Microsoft is a big bloated warthog and we're going after the desktop market." That doesn't help their cause, especially while the applications that will make it possible are still maturing (Evolution, Mozilla, etc.). They'll wait, work the business they're good at for now, and when the timing's right, POW!
It's worse than this.
In a couple of years' time, Windows apps will be written to the Dotnet platform, which means that they can potentially run directly on many kinds of client devices, from phones to 'tablets' to big iron, just as Java apps do today.
Apart from the misguided 'Mono' effort, and perhaps Parrot (the VM for Perl 6), there is nothing equivalent for Linux, instead it remains completely wedded to the users run compilers mentality.
This will stymie development of commercial Linux consumer apps relative to Windows - for PowerPC and ARM users it is having this effect already.
Bob Young's reliance on non-commercial, open-source apps is just as risky for the client side as it is for the server.
On the contrary, I think we will start to see Linux being used as a desktop, if only because people are starting to be scared off by Window's omnipotence.
When faced with the prospect of the new windows versions, I just had to install mandrake. And pretty much everyone I show my new desktop to wants one the same.
"What do you mean, free? But you've got everything included"
I take issue with Gnome as the most user friendly, perhaps it was unfair on my part to mention it in the same breath as KDE. BTW does XP now have winzip as part of the OS, or am I missing something?
Acquiescence leads to obliteration
1) The desktop war is only won when everybody has stopped fighting it. Prior to that time, claims of victory from any side is premature.
2) When Windows becomes so proprietary and expensive to develop for, deploy and own, and when Linux remains cheap and open, we might find a critical shift in applications development.
Right now the factor is who is willing to buy commercial software for Linux. It already has an edge in development, but lacks some necessary catalysts to start the transition.
So while I agree that Linux may not rule the desktop any time in the near future, I wouldn't say that it still isn't a possibility for the long term.
Red Hat has given up on the desktop.
That may be smart business, and it may be a lost cause. It is certainly the reason Red Hat is just an average desktop among Linux distributions.
SuSE is better, Mandrake is better, the new desktop focused Lycoris and Elx are better.
I like what Red Hat has done for Linux, and if they want to stay in the server space, I wish them luck.
Someone else will fight on the desktop and I'll be fighting with them.
Linux developer's own elitist attitude would never allow this to take place. Everyone can throw there fist up now in pure socialist fashion and scream, free OS for all. But deep down you jokers get ever more excited when you come upon a "lamer" (ugh, i hate that friggin term)...that doesn't know as much as we do, and you can sigh in annoyance at their blatant ignorance......Oh and BTW, i know you just as i do pledge allegiance to this great OS, but if it was to ever hit the mainstream in full force, you would all get in your circle and say, i used to use linux, when it didn't sell out...what a joke, and thats when all the flaws, vulnerabilities, etc...would come out! Those are my words...now mark 'em, ya basta'ds
This
IMHO the OS itself does not matter to the enduser at all. All the enduser cares about is whether they can run their applications just like they did before the upgrade (bug free). In this regard, it is not the OS but the API's that the OS supports. Much like WINE and Lindows (oops sorry WINE again...).
Remember people Windows Explorer (e.g. start menu, desktop etc) is an application that uses API's. Until Linux can support Windows API's seamlessly (daunting task, I know, especially when Microsoft is not open source) then Linux on the desktop is doomed. There are thousands upon thousands of Windows applications that need to be supported in the short term, at least until they can be webified in their entirety, in which case the OS question is moot as a browser is basically open source.
From excellent karma to terible karma with a single +5 funny post...
That's what I am running now after IE 6 screwed up my win2k system. Gnome/Linux comes very close to being a nice fully featured desktop. Very responsive and simple to use and fully configurable.
My biggest complaint so far is that I have to spend too much time associating file types with applications. I'd like some more defaults...
Also, the installation for redhat 7.2 was still a bit too much for the average user. I think maybe a few small mom and pop shops could specialize in selling some systems with redhat preconfigured and we might have a market or at least force Dell to (really) support the option on the desktop.
For me, it's always been "what do you use your operating system for?" If you only use your computer for entertainment, then maybe Windows is a good choice. If you're a nuts-and-bolts programmer, then maybe Linux is the right choice. Still, it shouldn't be a war for the desktop. Sounds like more of a war for the uses (like alternatives to MS Office, or Networking software)
"Shared pain is lessened; shared joy is increased. Thus we refute entropy" - Spider Robinson
At work, I wouldn't have access to Excel or Photoshop without hassling management for licenses, either. As a programmer who deals with the web, minor needs for software that fulfills these tasks come up.
Bob Young wasn't talking about me. Let's not confuse having the best software possible with market dominance.
A machine that stops working on its on accord for product registration at each hardware change is not a "perfectly" working machine.
Besides, "GIGA-hertz" sounds so cool and you were planning to buy a "calming sounds of jet engines" CD anyway. ZOOM!</SARCASM>
BTW does XP now have winzip as part of the OS, or am I missing something? Actually, it does now. Take that communist!
Does Windows XP come with a a zip program pre-installed? I know 98SE and NT don't -- I've got to download one from somewhere and install it before I do diddly-squat with a compressed .zip file. And I've got to do that all the time...
Yes, I do think compress/decompress should be built right into the OS. Compressed folders should be transparent to file-management tools -- that is, when you download a zip or tarball containing multiple compressed files to your hard drive, it should look like a directory, the files contained should be listed just like a directory, and the same commands should move files in and out. But no OS that I know of is actually there yet, and if Linux distros include a command-line program that decompresses standard compressed files, that's better than Windows.
OTOH, I can download (nearly) free GUI compress/decompress tools for Windows, even if the OS integration is not as good as I could imagine. Do such tools exist for Linux? And if they do exist, why in hell aren't they in the standard distros?
Someone said something about security being a good point for linux security... Security in general complicates the ui, so I'm sure this will be a hurdle for linux and not a help.
Having to su on the command line every time I wan't to put some file in a restricted directory... stupid. Why can't I do this through the GUI? Great for a server which you don't have to interact with all the time, but not a desktop which you want to personalize. (Remember the P in PC?)
This is disrespectful to all the hard working
volunteers, how have spent years awake at night
refining the Linux desktops.
Bob "Traitor" Young has discredit them so easily,
after he has made a fortune selling their efforts.
Shame on him.
I doubt the future will be just TiVo, PDAs, cellphones, intelligent ovens. By the way the market is there already, but yet nobody uses a cellphone to develop or do do word processing, or to use a spreadsheet. You know there is also business out there not just playing with toys and watching tv all day long. Bob is trying to sell his stock, so get real please.
Linux is not necesssary because windows does not work. But, rather because Microsoft uses windows in a way that suppresses innovation from everyone but Microsoft Corporation.
We are very lucky that Netscape did not go the way of Stac, PCTools and others. And, I doubt Opera would be around were it not for linux.
Illegal activity by Microsoft can and does restrict the development of superior technology on the desktop. It is why windows still does not hve a usable file manager. (Only they can offer any ideas.)
Linux will not have that affect. It is not controlled by a single company. And, no company can use linux to suppress innovation from everyone else like Microsoft insists upon doing.
NexuSys - Linux support by the best
Now try right-clicking on a compressed
Well, I'm not sure Gnome qualifies as the friendliest. There are a number of things KDE does better, and this is one of them. In konq, you can right click on a compressed file and either uncompress it right there or open it in Archiver and uncompress it anywhere you want.
And yes, XP does now have unzip capabilities built in, as well as the cd burning software.
Not to get to OT, but another problem I had with Nautilus was that if you opened up a directory with a lot of pictures in it, it would eventually throw up its hands and say there were too many files to read. KDE never did that.
See for yourself!
thank you for your input, bob.
......
it's all about alternatives - if you'd like to use MS products, that's your choice. if you'd like to use your apple, that's good too.
However, if you try to force me to use one of these options ( say, by not allowing me to access certain content unless I'm using an MS blessed application ), I will cry 'FOUL!' (like sending me WORD documents, or blocking my opera browser).
It is our complacent acceptance of MS's evil (yes, unethical is evil) bullying practices that will be our problem.
it's OK to say the MS desktop is widespread - it's not OK to say we should stop other developments. and no one should break other projects.
There's nothing lost - there's only gain.
-m
parseError@yahoo.com
BTW, Linux + Gnome/KDE won _my_ desktop several years ago, and it's OK that my wife is still running the XP that came on her new computer - it works fine for her.
thank-you samba team, KDE team, GNOME team, linux kernel team, those guys that made the original 'configure script', mandrake,
I know you're a troll, but.... Is the Linux community so shallow that when someone speaks what they believe is the truth, they would shun them? I thought the OS movement was about what is true and just, but from what I've seen on /. lately I'm beginning to doubt it.
Damnit, Jim, I'm an anarchist, not a F@#$!^& doctor!
I personally like Linux the way it is. To rule the desktop it would have to appeal to the lowest common denominator. It would need to have a standardized interface. This defeats the reasons we run linux. We don't all want a vanilla operating system with Internet Explorer integrated when we are running Netscape or whatever. To beat Microsoft the Linux community would have to change in ways that would not be good for the community as a whole.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The more we hear this "IT CAN NOT BE DONE" - talk, the more we want to prove "YES IT CAN!".
Where do people go to get support for Linux? The user forums? Those are all populated with two types of people: the newbies trying to get help, and the uber-geeks that look down at the newbs and loose interest half way through a fix to a problem.
How can people find out what is installed and where is it on their computer? There are ways to do this, but no one has made it easy.
What about uninstalling those programs?
Until the ease of use issue is dealt with, Linux won't rule the desktop.
Time to throw a little karma to the wind.
I don't understand why everyone complicates this so much. If you want to capture the desktop market, then you have to cater to what the desktop market wants. That can be summed up in three words: Easy To Use. Here are a few examples of things that aren't easy to use:
- So many configuration options that you don't know where to start, and need a year's education to finish
- A selection of desktop environments, each with a corp of zealots telling you that theirs is better
- A broad base of information that you have to (a) go out and find on the internet, and (b)search through to find your answers.
- Installations with prerequisites that you have to figure out how to find and install yourself
- User account management
- Video, sound, and network card installations that require you to know the model of your card.
If you're attempting to create an operating system with a broad selection of options, you should remember to include the option to not have to mess with these little details.
Unfortunately, this requires the programmers to figure a few things out for the user, and most of us just don't want to do that. Somehow we're always surprised to find out that the user doesn't want to do our work for us.
Mythological Beast
Wake up - the future is arriving faster than you think.
Chris: ...How did Microsoft get to own the desktop? By single-handedly killing off every competitor they could get at, that's how - legal tricks, buyouts, underhanded dealings, the lot. What they did not do was anything innovative or revolutionary. They stole ideas, cheated, tricked a lot of people and managed to get stuff into small print that the legal department at Hell Inc would be proud of.
Actually, I see nothing mutually exclusive in your description of Microsoft business practices and their handling of the market and technology trends that put them on the top. I wouldn't say (nor I think, would Bob Young), that Microsoft innovated its way onto the PC desktop. Microsoft recognised the trend in technology and leveraged their small systems expertise with MS-DOS and Windows in the IBM PC and clone market. Fundamentally, they didn't do it better than anybody else, they just attacked the market in the most ruthless way they could. With a viewpoint like that, I don't think Mr. Young and RedHat are off base in their outlook of where technology is going and how they should attack the market.
Because of the economics and logistics of Free Software, I don't believe RedHat could ever set itself up to be another Microsoft. I don't even believe that they have it in to be the "Microsoft of Linux". Personally I don't use RH Linux on all my systems, but that's purely a technical consideration -- I sometimes disagree with default setup or behavior of a particular piece of software or layout or some such thing. Frankly I don't understand peoples animosity towards RH in regards to philosophy or politics. RedHat appears to have an understanding and mature outlook on their role of being an enabler of free software to their customers. Job one is to support their customers, and for them free and open software is the solution. RH doesn't seem caught up in the Wall Street hype -- Bob specifically downplayed that. They're not running their business toward corporate bureaucracy and greed -- they just have a vision and understanding of a solid business plan. In other words, they're not run by "Suits". Going forward, RedHat needs to establish a reputation for good value and leading support for its customers in the strongest way possible. If in doing that, they go after servers or embedded apps or whatever to leverage free software in well suited markets, in won't be because of some bulls*** rational, but because of good sense. RedHat sees (and I believe it too) that for Microsoft to be irrelevant on the desktop, the desktop PC has to be irrelevant. With the internet and associated technology driving innovation into the future, Linux and by association RedHat are in a good position to capitalize.
This strikes me as someone who isn't really interested in even attempting to have a go at making a grab for the desktop (which is fair enough) but would rather wrap that up in hyperbole rather than come out and say "look, RedHat aren't interested in making an everyman's desktop, if you wan that use Mandrake or some other distro like it". A Suit in other words.
I really don't think it's a bulls*** answer if you recognize that the question itself is flawed. Going after Microsoft on the "traditional desktop", -- specifically something like on the thousands of pc clones that your uncle lugs home from CompUSA with a Microsoft preload bundle and all the promotions -- it really is pointless in a global sense. You are not competing with just Microsoft. You're not even just competing with it's shady business deals and monopoly practices, you're competing with all of Microsoft's partners and developer houses, all the little software shops that produce programs that run on the platform. You're even competing with the VAR's and support companies and the OEM's. That's why Bob says they need somebody like IBM with "the man in the van". That's also why he sees RedHat concentrating on markets that don't depend on the PC and could even replace it's functionality in the future. Mandrake and SuSE aren't going to get multiple-digit desktop market share with customers buying a box and installing it one at a time on their Dell or Compaq or whatever PC. Even if they do get significant share in that manner, I see Linux taking a significant hit in prestige because of the difficulties in providing adequate support to so many desktops. The real hope is for displacement in technology. Take the desktop PC out of the equation. Make the desktop PC irrelevant. Take heart in news like today's earlier item about Linux thin clients. The future looks bright and I think RedHat's got the proper sun-shielding headgear.
Regards
I like teamwork. It's easier to assign blame that way.
Does Windows XP come with a a zip program pre-installed?
.zip files are viewed as compressed folders. You don't even need to de-compress them.
Actually within XP (and ME I believe),
I still like winzip. But that's only my opinion.
...the International Space Station drifts helplessly, out of communication with the ground, with power draining away - because the computers crashed. Some so-called 'desktop' uses really are mission critical.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
> Linux won't rule the desktop but will instead
> focus on replacing legacy Unix systems and
> enhancing Linux's embedded presence
Linux will do whatever people want it to. If people don't want linux to rule the desktop, then it won't. Anybody can contribute to linux, therefore if someone wants to spend the time to make it take over the desktop they can.
The point is not that linux can never dominate the desktop, but that right now, with currently existing software it won't.
Do you really think that in 5-10 years, people are still going to be using bulky beige boxes to connect to the Internet?
How many times have we heard the "PC is dying" routine?" For the past 10 years, we have seen multiple occasions where the PC was on it's deathbed, but yet it still exists today. Hell, by now I was suppose to be running a network computer, using office via my web browser, and getting all my content from "PUSH technology." I do agree that there will be many different ways to connect to the Internet, but the PC is here to stay. The more Internet devices we acquire, the more we will need a PC to manage these devices.
You forget that cool devices still have to do useful things. The trouble with Linux is that it's not one platform like Java or Dotnet, it's a C-based system requiring apps to be built for every possible hardware variant. If I can't download an established app for my cool new device, I'm not going to buy it.
You might try giving a gnu/linux distribution a try before you comment on its usability.
Remember the old quotation from Ghandy...
First they ignore you.
Then they laugh at you.
Then they fight you.
Then you win.
On the server side of things they are on the "they fight at you" stage.
On the client, they are at the "They laugh at you", but that is _second_ stage. Considering that focus on the desktop came after focus on the server that is good enough for me. Actually, the relevance of this arguments about the linux desktop is that MS is starting to see scenarios where they stop laughing and start fighting coming closer. Otherwise it wouldn't be news.
I was running Windows as my primary desktop and Linux as my secondary until three months ago. Now it is the opposite. I have got vcl (www.videolan.org) for dvd viewing and xine (xine.sourceforge.net) for all the other video formats. Mozilla for the web. Kmail for mail. Open Office for those nasty MS office files you get sent. And I play wolfenstein (my preferred game) and all of Id games and a lot of free ones on Linux. I use kinkatta and jabber fot instant messaging.
The packaging systems are improving, so I only have to use urpmi against a ftp server everytime I need something.
And kde is getting better and better.
So basically, Linux can do almost all that Windows will do and I get control, and source code, and no crappy restrictions on things like givving applications to my friends, activation, content rights management, etc.
In fact, it is much better value. And I think a lot of people thinks the same way.
That from a home user point of view. If you look at goverment needs, where they can save so many $$$ by not having to pay and audit licences, and use open data formats, Linux has a lot of scope there as well (see korean, chinese, german, french and UK goverments at different stages of linux use on the desktop).
When his defense asked, "Which computer has Jon Johansen trespassed upon?" the answer was: "His own."
That car example is a blatant rip off of the opening paragraph on my paper on Intellectual Property in schools. I wonder if he read the paper, or we just think alike :) I wrote this paper 3 years ago. http://www.thestuph.com/ip.html. The paper has over 40 errors (grammatical and otherwise) that have been pointed out that I have yet to fix. I apologize :)
Jeff Knox
Microsoft/Intel is cheaper (and lower quality) than Apple - MS Wins. WinNT/Intel is cheaper (and lower quality) than Unix - MS Wins. Linux is cheaper (with comparable quality, better in some areas, worse in others) than Microsoft/NT on Intel - who will win?
Really?
Come on, now, guys! Evolution has shown us - Linux will NEVER go away! It sticks around - and all the strengths it has now will continue to compound.
And it's cheaper.
I'm seeing articles in CRN and the trade magazines about how Linux saved NNN company $YYYY.YY dollars. I figure this year, we'll see a sizeable company standardize on Linux - and then the big migration begins.
As far as the palmtop, isn't Linux there too? And what about the huge clusters of supercomputers? Isn't Linux there, too?
Will Linux rule the Desktop in 2003? Not!
But eventually? It's almost guaranteed.
were all real happy for you about Linux in the
server space.
don't piss on those of us who are working for Penguins on the desktop.
OTOH, if nobody can do a better job than Redmondhat
for a desktop Linux, you could be right.
Forutuneatley, there is Mandrake, Suse, Debian,
Libaranet, & others.
I have mod points and I was about to drop you and "Insightful" inspite of the fact it would get one of my last honest accounts $rtbl'd, because there are a lot of people around here who need to read that, but then I got to your last paragraph.
Sucking another guys cock, unless you have a gun or prison shiv against your throat, is always gay. It is not an "experiment", and if you lost that bet with the girl, just break up with her if nothing else works. You may not suck other men's cocks and be straight.
You may also not think about it. See, the part about saying to a girl "I wonder what it would be like to suck a man's cock" is only acceptable because all (non-gay) men would know you are just trying to make her feel like you are "open minded" or something so you can get in her pants. If you really wonder, then you are gay.
One cure for gayness is extreme pain. I suggest the following -- it worked for this guy I know who had been infected with a slight case of gayness because he hung out with eurotrash people when he was in college. When he was home for the summer, he kept a soldering iron hidden in the bathroom, and whenever he caught himself thinking gay thoughts, like pausing to watch a few seconds of soap opera while flipping channels, he would go to the bathroom and burn himself (really burn, past blistering, to where the blister popped) with the soldering iron. He told his mom his arms got burned at work.
Now, the fact that this guy would share this with me, or talk to his mom about anything except did she need him to rotate the tires on her car, shows that he was gay. About two months through the summer he stopped talking about it and threatened to kill me if I ever mentioned it. That was straight. Also he stopped talking to his mom or hanging out at home, and spent his time working on his car or driving around purposely hitting people's pets in neighboring rich subdivisions. He also bought a gun and began to continually turn any conversation into a discussion of what circumstances could he kill someone stealing his car or breaking into his house and get away with it. Those thing are straight, and showed that he was cured. I can only pray that he avoided any eurotrash on his return to school.
Hope that helps.
I'm a longtime fan of RH (using it to type this right now) but Bob Y. should speak for himself (RedHat) and not drag others (Mandrake etc.) into it.
The battle is won, but not the war by any means.
.Net and Microsoft. As long as I know my competitors are sending money to Redmond, I know when times get bad, thier customers...
You are obviously not aware of the poor bastards in our faultering economy that have to deal with the license or upgrade taxes from Microsoft.
IT managers had a taste this year of a slow economy, and when things are bad, the Microsoft tax treadmill on say, 200-300 desktops is a significant piece of money employers would like to use to pay raises, bonuses, health insurance and business opportunities to expand upon. Which, I would like to note, their competitors can't if they have to ship that money to Microsoft.
My entire company in fact, BETS that my competitors will buy into
WILL BE MY CUSTOMERS.
The desktop battle, was won by Microsoft, true, but anyone who says the war is over has never worked in a all IT Microsoft shop in a bad business climate.
The server room battle is now going on, and Linux is winning this battle. Once Linux is firmly entrenched in the enterprise server room...
THEN we will turn our expertise and knowledge and better value all around, towards the desktop.
Uncle Bill and Stevey boy are going to wake up one day and find themselves in a world dominated by Java virtual machines that run everywhere and typically more than not, servers, pda's, cell phones, etc are also running some form of Linux underneath them.
It is already happening.
Those companies that refuse to follow suit will not be able to stay in business against those companies who adopt open source technologies and processes.
Ultimately the new business model for IT is based around people and not hardware or software like it has been for the past 10 years. That is what open source is about.
People/technology not a gadget or a widget.
It is comming, be ready for it.
-hack
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
People have a workspace. Today this is the "desktop". Ten years from now it will still be the desktop.
If you had *ever* had to retrain a secretary, you would understand this. The nature of the
hardware will change, and there will be more powerful versions of the internet
toys of today. But there will be a desktop indefinitely.
What I perceive as lacking in Linux at present is still maturity, i.e.,
it is not as finished and functional as MacOS or Windows. I still cannot import Excel files into anything
for Linux-I'm not talking about trivial applications, I'm talking about serious spreadsheets, with macros and lots of cells and lots of formulae (I could probably work around the loss of the old macros, but I cannot work around things getting chopped and slashed during import of say a file with 7 or 8 big computationally heavy qworksheets). I'm running RedHat 7.2 right now, on a brand new Dell, and upgrading to the latest 2 kernels causes the standard USB mouse to hibernate for the winter-and if
I cleverly try mouseconfig in place of the stationary cursor, the cursor disappears. For Linux, RedHat makes good stuff (tm), and I have consistently had the fewest troubles with RH distros compared to the others-but a secretary is is going to waste a lot of peoples time if her mouse won't work, and your MIS types are not going to be amused with the consequences of such updates which leave them with a lot of computers to "fix".
Red Hat is saying that with all the diversity of hardware out there in the PC world, they cannot
guarantee that the secretary's mouse will work after the next upgrade. THis being the case, they cannot compet with
Microsoft on the desktop. The desktop wars are over-they are capitulating. That does not mean that Linux will still get a lot nicer, faster, more stable and more user friendly--the list of superlatives will continue to grow. It is just that a $300M comnpany cannot compete with a gazillion dollar giant on issues
like this. You cannot have failures as basic as this from time to time.
Dismissing Stallman so thoroughly was kind of sickening. I'm not a gnu acolyte, I've got nothing to gain or lose by saying so, but to treat the gnu tools and the compiler as trivial is disrespectful. Young forgets his roots-- he has been waltzing with the big boys too long. He's not drinking mountain dew, it's champagne.
Here's what I want:
Right now, something like this costs a boatload and takes just as much time to set up. A cheap linux box for the server, a Windows box for my stuff (remember - compatibility), and a Palm for everywhere else? I've just paid for THREE operating systems AND I have to worry about linking THREE separate locations.
Wonder why .NET is going to be successful? One operating system on each of these boxes. ANYONE who can create a standardized system - something where I don't have to worry about what OS is where, which chunks of my data are current on which machine, and do it all securely, with stability, and with a minimum of hassle, will get my $$$. Right now, Microsoft would cost WAY too much for too little security, and Linux isn't stable enough or unified enough to use across all these devices.
Here is the market potential. Integrating a palm device with 1) other palm-type devices (or wall devices, or whatever you feel like) AND 2) with higher-grade computing power (servers, workstations - and something that can run some sort of heavy-duty office). And making the integration seemless enough that adding some new device (the Super Palm XP 2020) to this mix DOESN'T crash things and DOESN'T make me go through five zillion configuration setups. Best done: on a single operating system. .NET or Linux, or whoever fills the vaccuum.
A witty [sig] proves nothing. --Voltaire
Imho the biggest obstacle for most people switching from Windows to Linux is MS Office. Until Linux has a fast, competitive office suite it can't win against MS on the desktop. I don't really see how this could change in the next two years - KOffice still has a long way to go, StarOffice is slow, AbiWord and Gnumeric are fast but still too buggy. I tried to do a simple diagram (just a column of about 30 numbers) in KSpread and Gnumeric, and ended up booting win2k and doing the job in Excel in 5 minutes (ok, I'm used to it, but KSpread didn't allow to change rows/columns and crashed when editing the data by hand, Gnumeric didn't start the diagram creation wizard).
I appreciate the hard work done by linux developers, but one has to acknowledge that it takes time to catch up with Microsoft Office.
The problem that I saw with all the linux hardware vendors, is that they failed to take advantage of Linux' primary competitive advantage over Windows: Cost.
every vendor I looked at (VA, Penguin etc..) tried to break in to the market with high end preconfigured with everything under the sun systems.
what they should have done, is build bottom of the market systems aimed at newbies, with the cheapest possible hardware spec (think packard bell, or compaq presario) and load them up with a cleanly configured kde or gnome desktop,
but - dont put EVERY PIECE OF FREE SOFTWARE IN THE WORLD (tm) on them, but instead cherry-pick, put the best e-mail (but only one) the best browser (but only one) the best office suite (but only one) etc etc, and have them configured properly.
then sell this machine, equivalent in hw & sw to a presario with xp, office, a games pack and an applications bundle, and visualStudio FOR A LOT LESS THAN THE EQUIVALENT MICROSOFT LOADED COMPUTER.
selling high end pre-configured linux boxes is not the way to go, because the people who want one of those, would rather build their own.
The difference between Theory and Practice is greater in Practice than in Theory.
That's hardly proof that Linux isn't "ready for the desktop"...at worst, it is an annoyance that can be easily solved by associating the file type to the application in the GNOME Setup utility. Why they don't do it by default, I don't know (perhaps in GNOME 2.0)...in any case, they do so in KDE, which - contrary to what you assess - is usually referred to as the most "windows-friendly" desktop manager anyway.
.tar or .tgz files (which are common) usually happens when compiling programs from source. That's already a step up from "newbie", which means you should already be familiar with the CLI...
Also, I think it's fair to say that dealing with
Reminder: find a new sig
Over the past year, I have set up two friends with Linux workstations for home use. What went into their decision-making process? It's really very simple:
Friend: Sean, I need a computer, what should I get?
Me: What do you wantto use it for?
F: Internet, email, writing. Maybe some games, like solitaire or Mah-jongg.
M: OK. I recommend Linux. Take a look at what I have on my system at home. Anything missing that you would want?
F: I need to be able to write. Do you have Word?
M: No, I have StarOffice, which can read and create files across a variety of platforms and formats. It'll do Word and just about anything else you'd want.
F: OK. Cool. Linux is free, isn't it?
M: It's free as in speech, not beer. You can download the software from the Internet, or pay about $30 - $40 for a box set. I recommend the box set. Then I'll install and configure it for you. That's where the free beer comes in.
Then we went on to talk about hardware, and prices, etc. One friend went out and bought about $400 worth of hardware at Frye's. I put it together and gave him his system. My other friend didn't have any money, so I put together a decent-enough system out of spare parts I had lying around, and gave it to her. Both are happy and contented with their PC's. I'm currently working on one for my brother-in-law.
Do you get it? Don't tell people what they want. That's the Microsoft way. Ask them what they want, and recommend the best way to go, as any friend would. Give them a chance to play around on your own system so they get a feel for it. If Linux can fulfill their needs, tell them so. They'll save money and contribute to the Linux community.
I believe in looking at successful models, and emulating them. When I look at Microsoft's success, I see it as being the result of getting their OS onto desktops everywhere. I see their corporate greed as being their eventual downfall. So I try to keep this in mind when advocating for Linux: get the desktops out there in the consumers' hands, and Linux succeeds. As Linux succeeds, so do Linux admins, consultants, and programmers. We're not even at the point of major corporate greed yet, but when that time comes, we will have to be careful *not* to follow the M$ model.
Meatloaf
Uncle Sam sent me to the Persian Gulf, and all I got was this lousy Syndrome!
Have you seen the XP ads? I noticed that Windows is advertised more as an entertainment OS where you can view pics, copy digial pictures, play games, record and play movies, listen to music, scan pics, chat and have fun.
Once a Linux distribution can easily do those things without extra installation/configuration; it'll win the desktop.
Bob Young's argument that Linux will not rule the desktop is also a falacy. It shows a lack of vision and also a lack of motivation. Microsoft dominates the Desktop, because Microsoft keeps redefining the Desktop as whatever it's producing.
If you keep following the definer, OF COURSE you will always lag behind! DUH!!!
The answer is to stop letting Linux be led by the nose. Define the desktop by what's useful and usable, not by what Redmond's most famous cannibal wants it to be defined by.
IMHO, if Red Hat and GNOME are willing to be slaves to the Evil Empire, they should quit and go home. Computing is not for wimps. (Physics is for wimps. And MACHOs. And superstrings. And singularities....)
Look, Linux does not need
If GNOME's Chief Nerd wants to go
If Bob Young wants to give in and give up, why doesn't he go whole-hog and give blood to the League of Vampires? Fight for the desktop, by defining the desktop OUR WAY! The "desktop" is not some ISO standard, it's whatever there are tools to do, for which the user has a need.
All Mr Young needs is one app, the Visicalc of today, which can re-define the Desktop to something Linux can do and Whindows cannot. The desktop is suddenly conquered. Not because Linux is selling any better, but because you've changed the rules of the game to exclude ALL existing Windows machines.
Is this possible? Sure! It's exactly what Microsoft keep doing. It's why Windows keeps changing, absorbing new features/crud, etc. It's not just to keep competing apps out, it's to keep the crown of the most-installed Desktop system as well. (Oh, and since they get to do the counting, they get to count Linux machines which, at any time, have had Windows installed on it.)
If KDE/Gnome installations were, by definition, desktop systems, Linux would be close to having as many "desktops" as there are people living in the entire of Great Britain. But because Linux is classed as a "server OS", most of those don't count. Yet every Windows OS sold is considered a "desktop" platform, whether the OS is used as a server or not.
(That's one reason Windows has had trouble conquering the server market. Only actual machines used as servers get counted. You can't do any figure-fudging, like that.)
The number of Linux systems in use is probably in the region of 40-50 million, though it may be much higher. (I'd place the upper limit at 80 million.) That's not a bad slice of the entire industry. If this estimate is correct, then if Linux were treated EQUALLY to Windows, for the purposes of determining Desktop market-share, Linux would weigh in at about 10%.
That's not a bad figure. And, with the Germans, French, British, Canadian and Russian Governments looking to migrate from Windows to Linux, maybe even at the desktop level for Civil Servants (and equiv.), that figure could massively increase in the next few years.
Let's assume, for a moment, that many of these Governments do switch. That'll probably push most of their contractors to also switch, as contractors prefer using the same technology. If the contractors switch, given the size of most Government contracts, top-end application writers will also switch. They're not going to miss out on their cash-cow.
Now, a lot of people like working at home. So, Linux will start migrating out of offices and into the home. With fewer people using Windows, ISPs will start to become more Linux-friendly. Which means they're likely to end up using Linux (if they aren't already).
Once you get to this point, a significant number of financial transactions will be between Linux-based organizations. Which means that banks will start supporting the OS, directly. Which means that banks in other countries will feel pressure to switch, because Linux transactions will be seen as much more secure.
Government-financed schools will feel enormous pressure, at this point, to dump Windows, because their paymasters, banks, children's parents, etc, will be increasingly Linux-based. That means that kids will more likely learn about Linux than Windows, which means that the next generation won't believe that unstable, insecure, unreliable systems are what computing is all about.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
CD burning is a serious deficiency
I have used XCDRoast and its all very nice when you have a SCSI system. Right now I have a DVD-ROM and a CD-RW and it can't read the DVD-ROM... I hate having to go to Windows to burn CDs...
WHO WAS THE FUCK THAT MODERATED THIS TROLL?
GET A FUCKING CLUE. THIS IS NO TROLL.
Sincerely, since I have a +1 bonus on trolls this makes the PWP apear on my 0 treshold. PLEASE, if necessary to moderate crapfloods, simply mark them "overrated" until they reach -1.
Thank you
Archiver is a GUI tool that will open tarballs available on KDE 2. It is part of a default KDE install. It's amazing how many folks here talk the talk, but have not walked the walk.
how dare you not say Linux Roolz, M$ droolz!
yes XP comes with zip, Finally. You can also install a nautilus plugin in ximian that'll do the same thing (why it isn't built in I don't know)
On windows, I use the command line on a daily basis. Pkzip is in my bin directory. It tends to be faster than winzip, accepts options/arguments that I don't have to go searching for. Tar on unix is even more powerful/fast. Get off your lazy mouse and learn to slap the keyboard.
i believe that linux hasn't caught on because of x11. if wë really want it, we should make berlin more aqua like and take stuff like the .dmg self extracting disk thingies and make dmg-apt whatever.
Really? In order to do that, I'd have to know the command line name of the decompressing program. How do you propose that a new user will realize that it's called "gunzip" without having to ask someone?
I have a good reason folks who write good stuff contribute it to the core Linux base that hasnt been mentioned yet that I can tell. Ease of upgrading: As someone who once worked for an ERP software vendor and who customized client installations I can see this very clearly. If you, or your company writes something, it is at that point a patch or upgrade: something that must be reapplied and possibly updated each time you upgrade your software. If you give it to the base software maintainers and it becomes part of the package, you get the upgrade for free when you install the new version. It's already on the CD and integrated into the new release. No going through file diffs and figuring out how to put your changes into the new source and recompile. I recall numerous examples of clients who heavily customized the base ERP installation, sometimes developing significant new functionality. They would have liked nothing better than to have that, or something very close to it, become part of the next release, as it would make upgrading a far, far easier task for them when the time came. Bug fixes and updates also shifted over to the new maintainer.
You could just buy hot swappable hardware, and test software patches on an identical copy of the machine first, like anyone who's ever worked in IT maintaining mission-critical systems already knows.
Two big servers and a ton of thin clients is still cheaper to buy (except perhaps for small companies) and cheaper to support than hundreds of Windows desktops.
Red Hat won't probably ever be in the desktop, because it is hard to manage with its rpm system. But once it's ready with a nice installer and a good selection of polished packages, with a manageable system there's no reason why IT departments wouldn't love to deploy GNU/Linux... and once people get used to it in the work, the home market is a given.
Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA
DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin
He somehow has to do something with Red Hat or?
Well, I couldn't care less. I'm mainly a Designer, and apart from the missing apps (Freehand, UltraDev, Photoshop, Premiere and an useable Sound Editor) I see no reason whatsoever to give Windoze the credit for a better Desktop.
Yes the Linux Desktop has reached the possiblity for Desktop parrity only half a year ago.(with the arival of halfway usable webbrowsing)
Yes, the naming of apps may be funny for some people, but it basically just plain sux.
Yes, KDE is just as unflexible and unstable as Windoze (don't use it then I keep telling myself...).
Yes, Motif looks like someone shat on your screen. (not to mention the Windoze default desktop..*yuck*)
Yes, it takes a while to get all that stuff running
Yes,and the *nix helpsites - with the crappiest of design available on the web - don't encourage newbies to actually get into *nix very much. Rather the contrary.
Yes, this alltogether sux quite a bit too.
But figure this:
Mickeysofts OSes, as of begining of this year, cost 200$ or more. Without apps or documentation.
Mickeysoft changes their ware every 2 years. That makes 2 months of adjusting and -200$ each time.
That's how they make money, ya'know?
Linux might be the kind I was used to back in old DOS times. (Now please don't any 1bit-color-geek smartass me by starting to compare bash and dos funtionallity - that's not what I mean)
And it might take me the better part of a year to get it running the way a system should.
Mac or 'Doze systems need their time to run smooth aswell, believe me.
But I'll NEVER EVER have to learn an OS again!!! I said: "I'LL NEVER EVER HAVE TO LEARN AN OS AGAIN!" Think this over thrice!
And if there's a problem with Linux, I might be able to fix it. 'Doze or MacOS on the other hand have exactly one (1!) option when you're done with hopefull trying: Reinstall.
Yes it might take another year or two for Mac-only 'stupido' to dig Linux (Honestly, I can't blame them), but to say something like "the Desktop war is won" is just plain bogus. Especially when you mean it's won by Mickesoft. And at the very moment Linux is evolving in leaps and bounds other Oses can only dream of.
No, really. Tell this Bob Young guy (whoever he is) to bugger of and get yourself a SuSE 7.x Pro distro with 7 Cd's one DVD and half a bookshelf of rocksolid 'deadtree' documentation for something like 80 Euro (that's that new european currency in case you've wondered) and you'll dig that those few *nixquirks are worthwhile putting up with. Rather than that constant "buy, install, migrate" cycle Mickeysoft is squeezing the last of revenue out of, before they're probably going to pull some stunt like offering their own Linux-distro.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
It's clearly far superior to win95. Unless you don't count "doesn't crash" as a usability improvement.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
The part about the Institute of Virology and Immunoprophylaxis (IVI) is thick with symbolism. Browsing at +2 I do not see any references to it, though, and the story is already more than an hour old. The desktop issue absorbs all the attention (I am very happy with my own linux box but absolutely not willing to evangalize/force/hypnose others into using linux as well, let them choose for themselves, but maybe I am selfish/shortsighted).
Am I the only one to find it extremely funny to think of a virologist in a clean room, staring at a lively petri dish next to his PC, phoning Microsoft and saying in a low, slow, thoughtful voice: "There's a bug in here somewhere"...?
Well, maybe I am just silly and pointing out the very obvious. I should leave my cubicle and get some food & sleep.
2002-02-04 19:24:43 RedHat ousts itself (articles,news) (rejected)
Ooops. NT4, Win2K and XP Pro all allow you to do that. Guess you feel pretty fucking stupid now, eh?
Never underestimate the power of RTFM.
Setting the PATH via GUI? No, you just don't do
this. GUI-only users shouldn't ever encounter
any reference to the PATH. The PATH is set by...
a. Red Hat (user keeps the default)
b. a command-line user that cares
c. an admin who is a command-line user who cares
Keep the GUI simple. Original Windows 95 and NT 4
had a clean and simple interface. Recent releases
of the OS (98, ME, 2k, XP) have crap added to them
for marketing reasons, either to sell unrelated
products or to simply be new and different enough
to encourage upgrades.
Crap: web on the desktop, channels, systray,
gradient title bars, buttons that aren't buttons
until you put the mouse over them, MSN and
passport being shoved down your throat...
From the article: "So our opportunity is not to replace Microsoft on the PC. If you've got a perfectly good working PC, why you would go through the angst of replacing it?". Well, last i checked Windows XP is very expensive comparing to hardware and dont seem to be getting cheaper soon. In sweden atleast Windows XP home cost 262$ and Windows XP Pro 376$. Compare that to a normal PC for 1000$ (without windows) and it seems that the biggest pricecut possible is by not having Windows on it. Sadly most people dont know about this because they pay for windows without knowing about it when its included in the price of the computer. Then we have the issue of freedom. Windows forces me in directions i never intended to go (MSN, passport and good only knows what next). Windows is good enough because most people doesnt have a clue of whats possible to do with a computer. They think that windows is state of the art because its biggest on the market. Boy are they wrong, now if someone with visions could take the possibilities and run with them. Linux would for instance benefit on the desktop if there was some level of abstraction like in macintosh (not dunbed down like in windows)
HTTP/1.1 400
Really? In order to do that, I'd have to know the command line name of the decompressing program.
.tgz or .gz files, you would probably already know that. As a matter of fact, I knew about .gz files literally years before I ever used Linux or Unix, and it took me about fifteen minutes on the internet (it took longer to find information back then - no Google) to find information about the file format (and the name of the program used to compress/decompress them).
True, but then again if you need to use
In any case, as it has been mentioned a couple of time on this thread, the real "windows-friendly" Linux desktop is KDE, not GNOME, and it comes with archives files pre-associated to the correct application. So there.
Reminder: find a new sig
The rate of idle time to actual processing goes up further and further. The average home user uses his computer mainly for office applications.
As bandwith on the last mile grows it will be possible to reduce the Ghz-monsters from today to dumb terminals. And what program is it that will be running on them on an ASIC? A simple X-server.
Isn't that what Sun is talking about for so long? I don't see Microsoft developing neither a multi-user OS nor an embedded X-server.
The average user wants a simple solution. I can't think of a more simple solution than pluging your terminal in the outlet and network, like we are used to do it with the TV today, and start working with applications that are hosted on a mainframe. For gaming there will be still Ps/2, X-box et al. Time will tell.
/.
Funny, my Ximian Gnome installation unzips files with no problem. I'm not aware of having done anything special with it, but it handles zip, bzip2, gzip, and tarred gzip - the last three MSwindows doesn't, of course. Are you sure your problem is not in your choice of installation options? I find the default installation of Windows, for example, to be lacking things I use constantly - so I do the "custom install" just like I do on any other OS.
As for "user friendliness", well, I've never seen a user friendly graphical environment - they all restrict the user and cause physical distress to the body. How exactly is "mouser's elbow" to be considered "friendly"? Not that carpal tunnel is any improvement... chord keyboards mounted on the sides of the seat might be worth trying.
Also, I'm curious as to why you think Ximian is any better than any other X environment... Ximian is primarily a laudable but unfinished attempt to co-opt the MSwindows "look and feel".
--Charlie
PS: Miguel rules.
--C
The real place Linux needs to be on the desktop is in organizations that revolve around Unix.
_ __
I am not talking about the secretaries and the suits. Too many times I have seen programmers and even sysadmins fire up Windoze and then spend the rest of the day inside of a telnet window.
Linux distro folks are missing out on selling Linux to the world of Unix hacks whose organizations simply cannot afford a fleet of Unix workstations. Yes, I know the Sunblades are only $999 but Sun seems uninterested in advertising this fact and most IT orgs already have plenty of PCs so the cost of conversion is nothing.
The last place I worked the corporate IT side told engineering after much bitchin' and moaning that they could use Linux but they would get no support. All the folks programming for the web stuff and the complete systems engineering group went to RedHat.
Right now, I work for an organization about to move both software and systems engineering to SuSE linux the hold up being corporate buy-in.
You might not think this market is that large but think really hard about it. There are many IT groups that use Unix as their primary Server OS. Within those organizations they have many developers and admins who work primarily in those *Nix environments. If there was no market for these groups then companies like Exceed would have died years ago.
_______________________________________________
ACK
They certainly don't comprise the majority of UNIX installations, but there are many cases where UNIX is used on the desktop to run "workstation" desktop apps. Examples include many engineering environments (particularly IC design, which is where I work), 3D animation for movies, many scientific and research environments, some high-end CAD environments, etc.
Linux is finally starting to move into some of these areas as older UNIX workstation hardware becomes obsolete and in need of replacement. In IC design, for example, many industry leading front-end tools are now available for Linux. Some of these areas, like 3D movie effects, have generated a fair amount of press recently.
Linux may never rule the traditional PC desktop, but it will gain a foothold in the handful of desktop environments currently occupied by legacy UNIX.
1) Microsoft Operating Systems and products must have copy protection schemes that prevent them from being pirated (heading that way with the release of XP)
2) Microsoft products and Operating Systems can't have "must-have" features that Linux and Open Source alteratives don't offer. I can get by today without ever using Windows and Windows software, as long as that trend continues the possibility of replacing Windows with Linux on everyone's desktop is alive and well (I've already replaced Windows on my desktop)
3) OEM can't continue to ship copies of Microsoft Operating Systems and products with their PC's. This is probably the hardest one to overcome, and I dare say is almost impossible to overcome. Even with some companies offering Linux as an installed option, it is dreadfully difficult to have an average user ask for Linux over Windows when 96% of the PC's they see have Windows on them
4) Microsoft shooting themselves in the foot. I'll give them credit that they have great marketing and a strong hold on the market. The one thing that will truely help Linux is Microsoft hurting themselves.
--It's Pimptastic!--
I do wish it had some decent ones- I tried the Corel suite and found it endlessly irritating (damn unstable.)
But Blackbox is beautiful. I mean, I do things. They happen. I don't use the whole heavy-ass GNOME/KDE lumps, just the bits I need for applications. (though I did have an Enlightenment thing going on for a while.) It's the most responsive desktop I've ever used (except for Be, gods rest its soul.)
Just wish I could do more with it, graphics-wise.
Well, that and lack of Ultima Online. But I can really reboot for that.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
Wrong:
.tar, .tar.gz, .zip, etc., thus rendering your argument moot. Click the file, get a WinZip-type decompression window.
1. KDE is shipped as default with the major desktop distros (Mandrake, Suse, etc.) Many would argue it is far and away the most "user friendly" desktop for Linux (as the companies I mentioned believe).
2. KDE comes with Ark, which decompresses
I despair when I read comments like yours, I really do. Please educate yourself before making such bold statements of "fact".
A week ago I installed Mandrake 8.1 on the computer of a friend of mine and his wife. They are complete newbies as far as computers are concerned. After showing them where the browser and the mail program was and setting up their ISP account I turned them loose. They have been happily pointing and clicking with NO problems ever since. They agree that Linux is the best thing since the invention of beer.
Whovever says we're not ready for the desktop has their head stuck where the sun don't shine.
Here's a timeline:
- Mid-nineties: critics - Linux will never succeed in the marketplace server or desktop, it will only be used by hackers;
- Mid-nineties: Linus - we are pushing mainly for server functinality right now;
Result: late nineties: Linux starts to replace where Netwares and NTs have ruled before becoming the fastest growing server OS still only second to NT market share; also displaces different Unices, gets IBM support and is on the way to gain foothold on mainframes.- Late nineties and afterwards: ctirics - Linux is a viable server platform, but it won't be able to do any damage on the desktop
- Late nineties and afterwards: Linus - the OS is "good enough" for server for now, we'll push desktop
Result: [enter your prediction based on the precedent]It's true that Linux will likely never dominate the desktop market. I see a lot of responses varying from this sort of reality would mean the end of Linux, or otherwise, if we accept it, then why bother with desktop oriented packages (i.e. Gnome and KDE).
However, for my, as well as a lot of computer savvy people, not so much the common users, purposes, Gnome and KDE have a lot to offer for us. *Our* desktops can be Linux based and we want our desktop OS to be just as functional. Just because it will never be able to offer the same market that MS can offer, doesn't mean that the desktop market is pointless. Take for example the process of building your our computer. The average person wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole, they would rather go down and get the whole package ready to go. However, some people recognize they can get better deals/better control by building it themselves, carefully examining and selecting each component for just the right end result. There are businesses that thrive by catering to this minority. Linux is in the same sort of category. Though never quite dominant, there is still enough of an interested market to support enough companies on the desktop to provide the most interesting features. And what companies refuse to bring, open source developers will eventually provide, even if it is slow, simply to make their system nicer.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Let's face it, there's enough competition in the desktop market as it is. Most users don't care about what's under the hood, much less whether it's open or welded shut. They just want to get their work done. Mac OS X and Windows XP are considerably easier to use than Linux and are stable enough for most people. (Considering that these are many of the same people that became accustomed to a GUI during the days of MacOS 7.x and Windows 95, today's operating systems are quite stable.)
Another problem with Linux on the desktop is the lack of applications and games. There simply isn't a market for it. Yeah, you can install WINE, but can you see Joe User wanting to or being able to install it and getting it configured properly? What use is the stablity of Linux if I have to reboot to Windows every time I want to play Age of Empires?
Linux has its place, but not on most people's desktops. It's great for embedded devices. Great for servers too. Great as a Unix workstation. Great for high-end graphics workstations (although MacOS X may provide stiff competition in this area) However, for the average user who wants to get on AOL, listen to some mp3's, burn a CD (try THAT in Linux), and type up some papers in Microsoft Word, it's not going to be a viable choice anywhere in the near future.
OK, so maybe RH for the home user isn't on the way out like the articly implies, but personally I'm not sad to see it go. Mandrake is a much more home user oriented system, and if you install it in expert mode it's just as configurable as any distro. It also comes with recent versions of most of the packages, and if you tell it not to install something IT JUST DOESN'T (can you tell I've had problems with the Red Hat install?) The best thing: Mandrake's LILO. Try it out, it kicks ass. For those of us who are still bound to M$ unwillingly, Mandrake's LILO makes having a dual boot system extremely easy. Anyway, I think it's great that RH is pushing Linux to one day be dominant "on the internet," but I still think that home users will like the idea of totally free and customizable software, and it's my opinion that Mandrake is leading the way in that market.
~ now you know
Linux will never be a desktop OS until X windows goes away. X is the biggest thing holding back innovation on Linux.
I care for the small, individual mail-, file-, name-, secure web-, web- and ftp server, running from people's mini-offices and mini-homes.
Will the boxed Professional Server package disappear completely ? I hope not. Will the network service disappear ? I hope not.
Otherwise I hope RedHat makes good business with large company's Unix/Linux or MS/Linux migrations and makes a real profit.
Good luck.
Ok, i've said it a few times on slashdot already, and i'll say it again. Get the right tools for the right job. if you're griping about a file manager that allows you to right click on a file with an extension and then perform an operation on it, then download the best filemanager ever, emelfm. You can do everything with this that you can do with explorer and so much more. Christ, stop comparing functions in linux to those in windows, if you have not spent a couple of minutes searching for the tools.
I hated the lobotomized Windows explorer when I actually had Win installed on one of my boxes, and had to replace it with some third party software that I cannot remember the name of now because it was so long ago -- maybe powerdesk or something like that.
Anyway, the point is, that linux can be as friendly as or as esoteric as *you* want it to be. Not like that shite windows, where everything is made for the lowest common denominator -- the dumbass.
And you make it sound as though dropping into a shell is a bad thing. What's wrong with the shell? Don't you want your kids to learn to type fast? And with word completion in almost all of the shells typing commands is downright simple!
edit your profile with the following:
alias packup "tar -czvf"
alias unpack "tar -xzvf"
Except for some hokey city in Florida that used to be a HP-UX shop for some reason, a few cheapo small businesses and some enthusiasts, nobody runs Linux as a desktop.
Noboday, huh? Not, say, Brazil? Or China? Or numerous other countries that happen to not be The One Great America(tm)? Guess again.
Either your head has been in the sand the last year and a half, or you are incredibly ethnocentric. Either way, as an American I find your comments emberrassing to say the least.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
What stratigical moron declared war on the Windows desktop before the tanks were designed or built yet? Wasn't it ZDNet or somthing?
"Come over here, I'll bite your ankles off!"
Our troops are just massing now. Don't you see it ? That dot on the horizon?
Duh
Poor foolish Red Hat.
Cringley said "first the geeks, we are here ----> then the businesses, then the world!"
Novel theory: Modern Man evolved from psychopath
- Maybe you're sick of rebooting frequently.
- Maybe you're sick of the upgrade cycle.
- Maybe you're sick of the EULA BS.
- Maybe you're sick of paying for the privelege of not owning your software.
- In short, maybe it's not, in fact, "pefectly good".
Yeah, it's a bit of a pain to switch over, and yeah, there's a bit of a learning curve. But my next PC will definitely be running a free/Free OS of some sort. To hell with MSFT (unless they suddenly decide to develop their own distro, but probably not even then).You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
I think that Linux has a strong case for the business desktop, which will be around for many years. There are too many business functions that the PC performs right now that one cannot perform on an embedded device. There was (still is?) a market for single purpose word processors. Try finding one now. As long as business produces documents, the generic beige-cased PC running Linux is and will continue to be a good candidate for the job.
The home PC isn't going away either. Running a household generates many documents like running a business does. However, there is a recreational use of PCs in the home and this is one area where Linux is way behind Windows and Mac. The next war will be content creation and control. Sure there is software to rip and burn your cd's. But more advanced media production and use is lagging. It can be a chore to get your system to use media files. The software and ease of in this area is abysmal in Linux. Right now, I could build a Tivo-like device using a Windows OS with off the shelf products with relative ease. Doing the same thing with Linux is major undertaking. Apple is now pushing digital content creation in their new iMacs. Microsoft is using the XBox to leverage their way into the digital media world. The Mac OS and I believe Windows XP both have tools for content creation. This is a major battlefield for Linux. The software to perform these tasks needs to be there and easy to use. The drivers for the hardware need to be readily available - obviously this would depend on the vendors of hardware supportin Linux or releasing specifications.
The current media marketing industries are attempting to keep alive in a world where rapid distribution of digital commodities makes their business models nearly obsolete. We all know of the Napster and CSS messes. Microsoft is pushing their proprietary formats. The media industries want closed formats. Linux is pushing open formats. The media computer will be the one that decides which formats win in the end. That is one area where Linux needs to focus. The use and creation of digital content must be simple. Most people are intimidated by their VCRs. Do you really think that they'd find Linux easy to use to create digital content? The PC is moving into new roles in the home. It is moving from the home office desk to the entertainment center. Is Linux going to do the same?
One aspect of freedom is choice -- in this case, a choice of applications, a choice of tools, a choice of where your money goes. And just because Linux works well for many applications -- even on the desktop -- does not mean that Windows is *never* a good choice.
I'll lay out some cases in point from my own collection of computers.
My home has more computers than people now -- and in terms of installations, Linux is running about even with Windows. Of my three machines, two are Linux boxes (including my dual-processor IBM workstation and the Toshiba laptop), while the third is a high-end Windows 2000 box. I use the Linux workstations for software development, research, newsgroups, and simulation work, with my e-mail, word processing, and gaming on the Win2K system. It works beautifully; I don't have any hassles when clients and family send me Word files or PowerPoint presentations; why go through the effort of making such things work under Linux when I can have a Windows box at hand? On the flipside, the Linux workstation has vastly improved my coding environment, giving me scientific and exploratory applications Windows can't match. As for the laptop -- well, it ended up running Linux for strange reasons, and I now find it useful to have a portable penguin system.
My wife runs Windows 2K on her rather basic system. She spends her life in e-mail with organizations and companies that are Windows-only; if the Red Cross sends her a disaster plan as a Powerpoint presentation, she can just run it using... uh, Powerpoint. She also games like the rest of the family. I never was fond of emulators (including Wine) -- if you need Windows, why not just use Windows? Good lord, that's like doing all your "Linux" development under Cygwin... (no insult to Cygwin, of course; great product, but not a "real" Unix).
As for my daughters -- the 6 and 11 year-olds share a Windows 98 Pentium 133 that does nothing but play their education titles. No point to Linux there.
The eldest daughter runs a dual-boot system, playing games and learning Photoshop and 3DStudio under Windows while experimenting with Python, Gimp, and 3D rendering with Linux.
Okay, I understand and sympathize with the desire to rid the world of Windows; some days, the Microsoft monopoly makes me want to wipe Windows from all of my systems. I've howled invectives in the direction of Redmond... but then again, I taught my kids some new language this week while trying to get a damned onboard SCSI card working with the latest Linux kernels. Damned aic7xxx driver...
Nothing is perfect; nothing is absolute. Religious zealotry -- of the RMS variety -- turns me off, because I know that brains turn off when beliefs take precedence over rationality. It's not that I disagree with RMS so much as I find his attitude grating and disturbing. Free and open software is taking over my home without excessive conflict; we're doing it when and where it works, and not to win some ideological war.
Freedom is about choice -- if the Linux advocates truly believe in choice, they'll stop attacking those who choose Windows. Make Linux the best it can be, and stop worrying about what Microsoft is doing.
All about me
there'd be no BiG deal stock FraUD types LIEk b0b, if IT weren't for the infinitive VOLUNTEER efforts of MR's stallman/raymond/torvalds/tacos, etc............
who in the fud is this publicity hound billybuksucker? whois the REAL .commIEz?
I love how people take these "Country X to stop pirating Windows, will use Linux universally" stories on facevalue. Dollars to Donuts that Linux's marketshare in Brazil or China is not significantly larger than it is in the US.
Oh yeah, I remember! That crippled OS with only one desktop, no themeability, that's a magnet for every script kiddy and virus writer on the planet!
sometimes, you just need to run MSOffice or Freecell, and that's why God made VMWare (only a supreme being could have come up with that hack).
Linux just isn't going to make it on the desktop I guess--it gives you too many choices, it's free, it's stable, it's secure, and it's virus and disk-fragmentation free. Who would want that?
Tell ya what-- build an AOL client interface on top of embedded linux, and sell the appliance for $200 (FREE with a new subscription to AOL!) and you'd be surprised how many people would run Linux. But they wouldn't know it was Linux.
---
Yes, thank you for making my point, which is newbies won't bother spending a couple of minutes looking for the tools. They'll just throw up their hands and say "this sucks".
And you make it sound as though dropping into a shell is a bad thing. What's wrong with the shell?
Nothing wrong with advanced users making use of the shell. It's clearly a very powerful option. But you are mistaken if you think new users will accept that.
wow, look at that. You might want to talk about something you know, like selecting drool recepticles.
---
Linux, with X, has the following options availible:
1. Microsoft look-alikes.
2. Impressive, but poorly-documented DE/WM's.
3. Minimalist WM's for power-users.
In the case of 1, why not just use the real thing? In the cast of 2.. Well, poor documentation leaves the average user out in the cold. As for 3, the 'desktop wars' aren't really about people who would use option 3.
Combine that with the trend towards PDA's/Portable Computers, and we see that the desktop market is going to be dead soon. It's going to be taken for granted. Home PCs will still be out there in force, but they'll be treated as common appliances. What they're running won't be all that important for the home user.
The portable market is now, or at least will be in the near future, 'where it's at'.
As a side note, I love my TI-89 calculator. I swear, it's the poor man's PDA. Jeebus, I can do everything on this sucker. Case in point.. Portables.. Portables.. Portables..
Linux has already conquored the desktop in my home and office. OpenOffice rules for my business and linux is king of the desktop at home also. I use a PC almost 20 hours a day and 100% of the time it's in linux. I play games (Quake3, RTCW, Myth2, UT, Pysol), I surf the net(Opera, Mozilla, Galeon), I send and recieve e-mail (pine, sylpheed), I read usenet(sylpheed, slrn). I create graphics and web page design(gimp,vim,bluefish,quanta). In my work I create forms, do billing, statements, estimates, and accounting. I watch dvds, videos, get streaming content from the web and program in C.
Anything I've ever done on a PC or wanted to do on a PC I've done and do in linux as easily as any other OS. I don't feel limited in any way by using linux as my only OS as I have no installations of any OS software other than slackware linux 8.0.
Christ even my mother uses linux. Recently I assembled a PC from spare parts left over from upgrades and installed linux on it and gave it to my mom. She had never used a PC before and has no trouble downloading recipes or checking the weather and chatting with me using gaim. She's even found a pentiant for creative writing since after her stroke her handwriting was very poor and the PC is much easier to use than a pencil.
Anyone who thinks linux isn't ready for the desktop just isn't using it as a desktop OS. Did I mention I listen to CDs,mp3, write to CDR, and dabble with composing in linux??
This argument is old, stale, and nonexistent.
Daniel T. Drea
/dTd
...mostly because my Grandpa kept fscking up WinMe trying to download pr0n, God bless him! I needed an OS that could handle real user accounts, and spending $200 for Win2K/XP was not an option (esp on their older PC with 64MB). So I installed RH7.2, gave them a little tutorial, and they just love it. Never turn it off, and they don't miss Windows one bit.
;-)
I also burned a CD for Grandpa of some choice stuff, all in mpg format
---
I use Linux for my desktop (all of my desktops) every day, day in and day out. Will that be the norm anytime soon? Perhaps not. Microsoft has done a very good job of locking competition out of the OEM and reseller sector.
But I would ask the question of where will the "desktop" be in a few years? I'm not sure most of us will be using desktops per se. I think computing is going to go more and more "into the walls."
Aside: The only reason the "netPC" didn't happen is the PC became the netPC (by getting below the $500 price point for a reasonable machine).
If Young's prediction is borne out, it will be because of marketing, not because of merit. People are now mistaking "familiar" for "good." He's probably right that that will continue...
At this point, I don't doubt he'll say anything, wether he believes it or not, to make Red Hat's position look stronger.
So much for a once great guy with a great OS.
Too big to fail? Does that make me to small to succeed?
Linux cannot, in principle, simply replace the Windows desktop, because it would no longer be a Windows desktop! However, Linux can be a better tool for many of the jobs that are now done on Windows. Many specialists already know that this is the case.
IMHO the worst brainwashing done by M$ to people is the idea that one OS with one UI would be fit for everything. In the end that system is not very good for anything.
Similar problems do exist even within the unix world. For example, XMMS is excellent for playing music but I don't understand why it needs a GUI. At least in this 'land of the Free' I could scratch my itch :-)
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
It's just picky about its friends
Karma whorin' since 1999
Going with the tribal couch potato(e) simile, Linux is like onto the man who would be king in Monty Python's Life of Brian. Slogging past peasants in the spring fields he is followed by his page prancing rhythmically whilst banging two coconut halves together in imitation of a kingly charger. Peasants loudly point out this kingly pretender has no horse. Linux without the internet would be like to the man who would be king without a kingly steed.
From the interview:" the Internet where that collaboration is essential to the value of the network -- then in order for all the players on that network to play fair with each other it has to be open source technology. The moment one company owns a protocol on the Internet, the Internet will fail. It'll be all over. The bulk of the value will disappear." The internet (read network) where collaboration (read networking) is essential to the value of the network (read Open Source). Linux is the child of the internet and whither the internet so goes Linux. C'est simple. n'est pas?
heuristic algorithm seeks stochastic relationship
...And I'll never stop being a troll. I am not trying to flame Young, though I don't like redhat, I'm merely speaking against it. People get tired of things after a while, that's why we see changes. I'm sure there was a time when everyone said "Toyota will never make it in the US." But they have, and if it weren't for the high prices, they'd have a huge market.
It's not that Chevrolets, Fords and Chrystler don't work, they just aren't as good. Microsoft will loose the desktop when people wake up and find out that Linux ( vw bug edition ) is easeir to use, more stable, and faster. [/rant]
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
who have started migrating users to linux desktops.
...
And they're not the only ones
Mandrakebizcases.com
With things like winbind in samba-2.2.3 (to integrate authentication with an existing windows infrastructure), evolution 1.0.1(a mail/PIM client windows users would be happy with), mozilla 0.9.8 (a really good browser) and OpenOffice.org build 641, out the box printing without having to worry about installing print drivers (via CUPS) you have everything most desktop users need for business use - for free.
People need to stop saying it won't work and just try it!
And of course, the chances are, we aren't going to use Redhat for it, but Mandrake.
Programming applications is a catch 22. Here's the explination we're come up with here at our company.
Home users (Joe and Jane computer user) are all for the speed and power of Linux. They're suseptible to catch prases and love feeding into the media. When Joe computer user looks into installing Linux on his family machine, he discovers something. All his desktop applications (Both Microsoft and 3rd Party) are not on linux ! Discouraged Joe Computer User sticks with Windows because everything he wants is there.
Software Development Houses are on the other side of the coin. Jim Bob Project Development Lead is heading up a project for home users. It's going to be the most usefull tool for home users to date, now it comes time to find your target platform. Of course since over 90% of the home desktop market runs Windows, it would make sense to develop our product for that market.
It's a catch 22.
> If you've got a perfectly good working PC, why
> you would go through the angst of replacing it?"
A rhetorical question, undoubtly.
Toon Moene.
The fact remains that windows have been in development as a desktop OS longer than linux. Linux is catching up, but it'll be a while yet. If the community keeps pushing >>together to make it into something worthwhile on the desktop it will inevitable get there.
Just a little patience and faith go a long way.
Trolls, it must be cool to be that bored.
i think the car analogy - or a better one should read:
If Microsoft was a car company, would you put up with a one that manufactures cars that would crash at random?
That's one of Linus' quotes that he made a while but not too long ago... I dont know the exact words but you get his idea...
my blog
Umm....you know, if we go about it that way, we can always claim a failing on MS part because they didn't include this, or that, because all our sofware is free! but um, none of it integrates ar works together too well, and every distribution insists on lumping a huge pile together, instead of putting together a UI and application set that makes sense for the new user. And the OS integration of the most common decendant of pkzip is complete, even overbearing (add to zip in every right click menu?)
Debian - It's an open source community, why are you still in your closet hacking on that slack-box, kid? Come out and
If you've got a perfectly good working PC, why you would go through the angst of replacing it?
All right! Where can I get one of those?
As long as there is no main stream applications for Linux OS the windows will rule
by mainstream apps I don't mean word processors, spreadsheets, presentation etc
What I mean is accounting applications for small business, proprietary database applications
I work in a small accounting office and would like to make the change however spreadsheets, word processors just don't cut it
I need Accounting apps (Accpac, Simply Accounting, Quick Books etc.), I need information databases (CCH, Carswells) I need tax apps (Taxprep, Taxbyte) and many many more that are only made for proprietary OSes
Till those are available on the store shelves from all the major vendors Linux will never take off in small businesses
Hey! I was NOT given any copy of WinXP!
The only thing I got with a notebook was
the 2 CD-s which has NO WinXP distributive on it
- just archive of installed system and proprietary program for formatting disk and dearchiving the archive.
On WinXP you can expand your disk, not shrink it!
23 of them. SO???? They are taking credit for code other people wrote!!!
Windows has its share of problems, but it was there first. History tells us that technical superiority, like Beta vs. VCR, isn't always acknowledged in the market.
s .h tml
I hate this piece of misinformation. Beta was NOT BETTER THAN VHS:
http://www.urbanlegends.com/products/beta_vs_vh
When JVC came out with the VHS format VCR in 1976, the stage was set for the format wars. JVC had a machine that already doubled Sony's recording time of one hour, and that difference would prove crucial.
By January 1977, JVC was joined by four more Japanese electronics manufacturers to build and market VHS format VCRs. Then, in February, Sony abandoned its long-standing policy against OEM deals and joined forces with Zenith.
Matsushita struck back by attempting to recruit RCA. RCA indicated that the VHS recording limit of two hours should be increased to three or four, and six weeks later, a prototype was ready. In March RCA joined the VHS camp.
While price later was less of a factor, in 1977 the VHS manufacturers, led by Matsushita, got into the trenches. VCR prices dropped as they became cheaper to make. RCA led by dropping prices $300 below the Sony machine, which caused an avalanche of follow-on price cutting. Eventually even Sony was forced to drop its price by $200. By 1982 the price war was in full swing, and Sony was offering a $50 dollar rebate as a "Home Improvement Grant." [6]
Technologically, the two formats were each other's equal. True, except for the recording length, Sony pioneered most of the improvements over the years, but the VHS manufacturers caught up to each improvement, usually in less than a year. So, for instance, within a month of Sony's announcement of Beta Hi-Fi, JVC and Panasonsic announced VHS Hi-Fi formats. Interestingly, the two VHS formats were incompatible with each other. [7]
Comparisons between VCRs with similar features showed no significant differences in performance. In fact, most of the differences could only be seen with sensitive instruments, and likely would never show up on most consumer grade television sets. [5] In particular, the qualitative differences between the two formats were less than the differences between any two samples from the same manufacturer. [8]
5] "VHS Meets Beta", Popular Electronics, August 1981, p 43
[6] "Even Sony Can't Avoid the Price War in VCRs", Business Week, September 6, 1982, p 33-34
[7] "VHS Hi-Fi: JVC Answers Back", High Fidelity, September 1983, p 65
[8] Stereo Review, April 1984, p 66
Okay I know comapnies want to make money but the we alienated a basement hacker and gained a couple of pros from IBM in trade-thats crap-It is the basement hackers that made Linux! Yes Red Hat will not rule the desktop (they have never tried) but SuSE or Debian or a host of others could so BOB STOP feeding the MS FUD machine. I truly dont know what Ximian and Red Hat are doing but I was trying to decide between SuSE and Red Hat for most of my machines, thanks to Red Hat SuSE wins hands down!
I've used Windows in many of it's incarnations. I've used Gnome and KDE on Linux systems. I have a passing familiarity with Mac OS9. They are all, in their own way, a total pain in the arse. The only desktop that's made me smile in a long time is OSX's Aqua. There is a neatness and consistency to the interface which makes it easy to learn and a pleasure to use.
GNUStep are working to implement the OpenStep specification, upon which OSX's interface is based, as an open source project for *nix. I haven't seen it running yet but if it's as good as I'm hoping, and if it receives support from developers, it could do a lot to enhance the reputation of Linux as a serious OS for the desktop.
Currently I prefer the command line and my Linux systems tend to be used as file and network servers
You would switch away from Windows for these reasons:
1) You don't want to be on the upgrade treadmill, in which you pay money to Microsoft every year, and continue to get software that needs more upgrades. One upgrade at $180 may be acceptable, but $180 per year amounts to $1,800 in ten years.
2) You don't want an operating system with a single point of failure: the registry. The registry is a primitive database that is, in practice, not maintainable. If something goes wrong, the suggested fix (from Microsoft) has been to re-load the operating system and all your programs and configurations and driver upgrades.
3) You are worried that some of the security risks of Windows were deliberately put there for surveillance, by order of the U.S. government. It puzzles you that the United States Department of Justice case is being settled with little or no penalty to Microsoft. Would the U.S. government do something this sneaky? Here are links to 600 pages of articles that say yes: What should be the Response to Violence?
4) You want the flexibility that comes from owning the source code. You may never use the source code, but if you have a big company, and you find some kind of problem, having the source code may be the answer. For example, if there is a bug in a driver for 1,000 pieces of equipment you own, and the manufacturer won't fix it soon enough for you, you can fix it yourself.
5) You want to avoid invasions of business privacy forced on you by Microsoft. Microsoft is requiring that the location and owner of each copy of its XP operating system be disclosed to Microsoft.
Bush's education improvements were
He is saying something that 1. isn't exactly what he is doing, 2. what can be interpreted by journalists and PHBs (certainly was interpreted by Slashdot editors and hordes of local trolls) in a way that he is not expecting Linux to be used on a desktop at all. If he wants to clearly explain that he sees desktop as a "territory" that a system has to hold to keep Microsoft from taking over everything else, he MUST SAY SO EXACTLY IN THOSE WORDS. If he want to say that he does not want to play "monopoly takes all" game on a desktop he should better just keep this to himself because the mentality of the public who learned to look at Microsoft with dollar-sign shaped eyes is not ready to accept such an idea yet.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
There is an article in the danish Computerworld today about some of Denmark's largest companies, Grundfos, Danisco, Danfoss, Carlsberg og Novo Nordisk, considering suing Microsoft due to their new licencing scheme.
A rt icleID=13547
Danfoss admits that they knowingly have tied themselves completely to the Windows platform as they believes (or believed) they would benefit most using Microsoft.
Carlsberg has considered switching to Sun or Linux but find it unrealistic due to cost of retraining. It is so much easier to sue, i guess.
Well, you can read the article here (in danish!!):
http://www.computerworld.dk/Default.asp?Mode=2&
is way damn better on the desktop than Linux or Windows and they can not beat MS either, so what. For those who want a choice, choice is available and will continue to be so. For those who are content with Windows, so be it. By the way, Ximian is one of the most elegant desktop setups I have ever seen on any platform, so there.
Pointless
Personally, I dispise Microsoft - and have a general loathing for Windows. However - "one desktop to rule them all" isn't a good idea no matter who is ruling it. If Linux was king of the desktop, some things would be different - but there would still be problems. Being that Microsoft will have to slow down core development (lest they kill the market entirely) Linux, MacOS, and all the boys will be able to reverse engineer the technology to their own needs. My hope is that nobody ever rule over the desktop entirely - but that they invent separately - so that all would benefit.
Oh well
I've just installed Mandrake 8.1 and KDE. I'm know a fair bit about computers and like exploring, but I'm by no means "technical". The install of Mandrake and the desktop makes windows look clunky.
/. to be 'ultra-reasonable' or 'sensible' and praise Microsoft while dissin' Linux, but give credit where credit is due. Linux desktop looks fantastic and doesn't treat the user like they're retarded!
I know it is fashionable on
Most people in my office know virtually nothing about windows. They just don't get it, but they've never been encouraged to try and get it. People aren't stupid, but if you treat them stupid like Microsoft does, then they will be lazy and be stupid. Scarying people by telling them that they've "performed an illegal operation" does not encourage people to explore the desktop and become a "power user".
People aren't stupid... Windows is.
* * Always question "the National Interest" - 9 times out of 10 it is a cover for evil
I'm really tired of people that claim they are some sort of expert or
another telling me what I want or don't want.
I want linux on the Desk top and as far as I can tell it got a hell of
a better user and use base going on than any other OS right now. Imagine
when Linux finally makes it to the desk top (in the way people think it
should - beside MS cronnies that can't ever see it as a viable desk top
OS)... When linux does make it to the desk top it wil be in a position
with such a broad standard in application or usage that it will be far
more solid than any other OS.
Then Again, If the Hurd group ever figures out the "Solid Core" and
automate user production of custom servers... There will already be the
GNU software base most preceive as Linux (Linux is just the kernel!!!)
So yeah!, Maybe Linux won't make it to the Desk top as others preceive.
BUT GNU WILL MAKE IT, One way or the other!!!
MS cronnies are out in force! Aren't they!?
Red Hat CEO points out the blazingly obvious. Zealots riot!
Bob Young says Linux won't rule the desktop. . .
well, certainly not with that attitude
Well, as one who would love to put Linux on my desktop at work, I have to disagree with you.
Linux cannot run ACAD2002, RSLogix, Allen-Bradley 6200, RSLinx, RSLogix, WinSEL, Omron PLC software, Framework, etc. These are all programs that run under Win32 or DOS. Yeah I know there is Wine and VMware, but we simply don't have the time to work all of that out.
I know it's been said before but it bears repeating. We use our computers to run applications, not operating systems.
I know what the Internet is, what the hell is this Interweb business?!
Maybe not Red-Hat, but on the Desktop, sure. Mac's can take PCI cards now, no biggie, Linux can read FAT32 partitions - duh - point is, remember back when Comodore 64's were vastly different and incompatible with Apple ][s? There were real differences back then.
Today, naw. You seen one GUI, u seen them all - sure sure, the places to grab the windows differ, the taskbar are better/worse/too cluttered/simple - but the metaphor of the GUI is converging across all of these 'platforms'. Linux is getting better and better at this convergance. My mom uses it, and doesn't care what she's using; the mouse works the, things happen when she clicks on stuff...
Office Suites? They are almost a dime a dozen anymore, aren't they?? Or if not, they soon will be. Does Office really have stuff that is so unique, or is it just a matter of it's own wide-spreadedness (word?)?
It's getting to the point where the platform is becoming irrelavent...my siblings, who are used to win98 with bearShare, come over here, and use gtk-gnutella to snag their mp3's - it's all the same, more or less.
Give it a couple of years and Bob Young may be as famous as Tom Watson. Both very sucessful visionaries.m
http://www.nau.edu/rufis99/masterton/tsld003.ht
"Now try right-clicking on a compressed .tar or .tgz file. You'll notice there is no option to decompress such files."
Hmm, I just opened a standard filemanager window of Gnome (FYI: the program is called Nautilus), right-clicked, and it gave me the option to open it in 'guiTAR', which shows me the contents, allows to extract, etc, with simple clicks. That's just about the same thing that WinZIP gives you on Windows after you first find, download, install, and pay for it.
And when I don't like guiTAR, and select "Other Viewer", it tells me I can set viewers system-wide in the Gnome Control Center under the "File Types and Programs" section. And wo and behold, the Gnome Control Center is not hidden under a "Start" button, but directly under the "Settings" menu on the top panel.
Direct, intuitive, aka user friendly, and leaving me all choices if I want.
Maybe your Linux install is incomplete. I'm just using the gnome that came with standard Debian Woody, nothing special.
--- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.
For at least the first 8 months of 2001, open-source poster child Linux was far less secure than Windows, according to the reputable NTBugTraq, which is hosted by SecurityFocus, the leading provider of security information about the Internet. (The company's 2001 statistics are available only through August 2001 for the time being.) According to NTBugTraq, Windows 2000 Server had less than half as many security vulnerabilities as Linux during the reported period. When you break the numbers down by Linux distribution, Win2K had fewer vulnerabilities than RedHat Linux 7.0 or MandrakeSoft Mandrake Linux 7.2, and it tied with UNIX-leader Sun Microsystems Solaris 8.0 and 7.0. A look at the previous 5 years--for which the data is more complete--also shows that each year, Win2K and Windows NT had far fewer security vulnerabilities than Linux, despite the fact that Windows is deployed on a far wider basis than any version of Linux. So once again, folks, you have to ask yourselves: Is Windows really
less secure than Linux? Or is this one of those incredible perception issues?
For more information and the complete stats, visit the SecurityFocus Web site.
http://securityfocus.com/vulns/stats.shtml
You can cry all you like now but I'll rather pay money for decent software.
Oh and don't try posting this as a news article on slashdot because they wont publish it. No bad publicity for Linux on Slashdot, just Windows. People on Neowin.net like myself know about the cry babies on here. But unfortunately you do have some interesting articles that are non Linux/Windows related.
irc log
-------
Anon: I want to use the extra features on my Logitech Keyboard, what drivers are available on any Linux Distribution?
L33T Linux User: There are none, why dont you make it yourself!
What he said was:
I used to stand up in front of Linux crowds and say, "Linux will never be successful on the desktop," and of course I'd get booed off the stage. And I finally realized the mistake I was making. Linux will not be successful on the PC replacing Windows OS. But we absolutely will be successful on the desktop as a geographic location.
An entirely different thing. Read. Think.
Anyway, I don't think he's right about not replacing Windows on the PC. He didn't count on the monumental greed of Billg. Microsoft's latest license fee grab will drive - is already driving - PC desktop users to Linux in droves.
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
Hmm, I just opened a standard filemanager window of Gnome (FYI: the program is called Nautilus), right-clicked, and it gave me the option to open it in 'guiTAR', which shows me the contents, allows to extract, etc, with simple clicks. That's just about the same thing that WinZIP gives you on Windows after you first find, download, install, and pay for it.
And when I don't like guiTAR, and select "Other Viewer", it tells me I can set viewers system-wide in the Gnome Control Center under the "File Types and Programs" section. And wo and behold, the Gnome Control Center is not hidden under a "Start" button, but directly under the "Settings" menu on the top panel.
Direct, intuitive, aka user friendly, and leaving me all choices if I want.
Maybe your Linux install is incomplete. I'm just using the gnome that came with standard Debian Woody, nothing special.
It ain't there on my system. It's RedHat 7.2, and since RedHat gets recommended to a lot of newbies, I'd consider it a problem.
It's nice that it's there by default on Debian, but do you really think beginning Linux users are going to choose Debian?
Why are more and more ppl wanting Linux to be M$-ish? I can live with "Linux replacing WIndows" as I don't like windoze :)
If Linux is to replace nearly everything, we're going from one monoculture to another. So we will have again stuff like nimda and so on.
IMO Linux has to enter the Desktop-market maybe it has not to replace M$ in the next 5 years, but it should be a 100% alternative.
Users should be able to choose the OS of their choice.
4130MBX_LoCal
Linux needs to be an alternative to Windows. It needs to be an alternative. Thats the point of Linux.
It needs to be better than Windows, Linux if its better, will be used by millions of people. Ruling the desktop is not what Linux should aim for.
In fact Linux shouldnt aim for ruling anything right now. And everyone involved with Linux shouldnt bee involved with it so it can dominate and become a monopoly. We dont need Linux to ever dominate anything, the fact that its THERE, that millions of people will use it, this is the reason.
Linux will be very successful on the Desktop, on the Server market, etc. Linux will be a better Desktop solution than Windows at some point, and when it is, people will finally have a choice, Linux or Windows on their desktop.
We want to give choice. Not rule the world.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
And it only gives people more reason to think Linux is a joke and not useful for anything. Afterall unless something absolutely rules in a specific area its worthless.
Linux doesnt rule the Server market, but its competitingg with WindowsNT.
Linux doesnt Rule the Desktop, but in 5 years Linux will be competition for Windows.
In other countries where not everyone has a computer Linux will be very successful, in the USA Linux will get millions of people to switch from Windows.
While most people dont want to learn a new system, theres alot of people, especially younger people who dont mind learning, people who seriously use their computer for a career, and theres millions of them, also people who are just young and want to learn.
What this author is assuming is everyone who has a computer, is an old guy who just uses their computer to check their email and go on AOL.
While about 30-40 million people use AOL, 200 million people in the USA alone have computers, and maybe a billion in the world have computers or are going to get a computer soon.
This means the market is underestimated by far.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Thats as simple as it can get. On your VCR do people care what OS it uses? Hell no. On your video game system do you care about the OS? Hell no.
Do you care about the OS on any of your electronics? Hell no. Computer makers start putting Linux on all computers and people will use it, they will learn the linux system well enough to use it, which would take most people 5 minutes because its not really that difficult.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
And really in my opinion, people dont care what OS is used to click on their mozilla ICON and browse the web, check their email, and look at stock quotes.
Will people notice they arent in windows? Nope i doubt it, the only thing they will notice is lack of Microsoft logos.
Honestly the OS doesnt matter when it comes to what peoeple want to learn, what they know and dont know, what matters is the applications they are using. IF the applications are the same or similar, people wont know the diffrence. The people who know Windows well enough to know the diffrence are also the type of people to learn Linux
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
.cab is a microsoft proprietary format, so I wasn't counting that. Besides that, using compress.exe and extract.exe is a command-line operation, and about as opaque as it is possible to get. That was what someone was originally complaining about in regards to .tar and Linux distros...
What distro are you running?
OpenBSD.
And yes why CUPS?
Because it supports my godawfully cheap Deskjet, which Mac OS X won't touch. I've been trying to set up a print server rather than dole out the cash for an unnecessary printer upgrade.
But this is way outside the scope of this thread.
--saint
Actually within XP (and ME I believe), .zip files are viewed as compressed folders. If MS hasn't f'd up the zip/unzip process somehow, that's the first actually better feature I've heard about in XP. (I don't count fixing some of the bugs that caused crashes in previous versions as a feature. If GM sold cars where the engine would suddenly die on the freeway and take hours to re-start, they would be fixing that problem for free, not requiring you to buy a new car to get the fix. And I'll lay 10-1 odds that there are still some bugs which Tech Support can only fix by re-installation.) It's still not good enough to make up for the Product Activation, which means that when MS really wants you to buy the next version, they'll just stop giving out WPA codes, and wait for the money to start rolling in as existing installations munge themselves so a re-install is recommended...
I like Winzip too. But Explorer doesn't show you what's inside the zip files. You've got to fire up Winzip to do that, and the user interface is enough different from Explorer to be slightly annoying to me, and baffling to some of our clerks.
Did you see the parent to my post? It was complaining about Linux distros not including a GUI interface to decompress tarballs. So I'm just asking why that's a problem, when Windows (pre XP) doesn't include _any_ means of decompressing the most common non-proprietary compressed format in DOS and Windows?
And I dreamed a little about what would be better than Winzip. You seem to have missed the point there, see my answer to kx45...
So there really is a GUI tool for tarballs in Linux with KDE. That's good. What's not so good is that most Linux gurus will still attempt to teach the command-line tools to newbies, never mentioning the easy way...
I'm sure that sure that everyone in China & Portugal is using an English-based operating system that is primarilly command-line... yeah.
Most people overseas use the copy of Windows that came with their computer or a pirated copy in their national lanuage.
Have you ever been outside of the United States? In China you can buy DVD's with every product that Microsoft makes for $15. If one spoke good Mandarin it probaly would be more like $3. When I was in Egypt copies of Windows were to be had for a couple of bucks in the street.
My head may be in the sand -- but yours is in the clouds. Linux is just as tedious for desktop use in China as it is in the US.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Redmond Linux, now Lycoris, is aiming itself as a desktop only system. I was quite impressed with its focus. Built off of Caldera, it takes a simple install program (allowing the user to play games during it) and then works to make the desktop as easy to use as Windows.
It is not completely there, yet. But my Dad, who hasn't used a computer in 10 years, wouldn't be able to tell the difference. To him it would just work.
If you look at the screenshots, you'll immediately realize what the company is aiming for. They have done something with this distribution that no other Linux company has been willing to do. They have made some decisions for the user. They have decided what is installed and how it will look once finished. They understand their target market and realize that their users don't necessarily care about choice. They just want the thing to be semi-intuitive and work.
The Linux kernel has the work part down, and Lycoris has taken upon itself the task of making it semi-intuitive.
One final note. Any desktop Linux company would do well to take a page from Lycoris' playbook. Take a look at their website. It is clean and non-technical. It is decidedly geared towards the end user and doesn't try to bowl people over with technical data. In essence, it is a marketing tool... and a pretty good one in my opinion
Bob Young seems to have a rather fecal outlook on life. Linux will indeed rule the desktop because its cost is SIGNIFICANTLY lower than Micro$oft Windows and is far more stable. A lot of games are compatible with Linux and Linux is just as easy to use as Windows. If anyone ever wanted to crawl out of a rut that's costing them dearly, they'd jump over to Linux and spare themselves the agony. Everyone is so caught up in the hype of WindowsXP that no one has really researched the market. Way to go guys. We keep dumping more vats of money to the unholy kernel lord which gives him leverage in court by allowing him to buy his way out of punishment. Believe it or not, kickbacks occur all the time in court. Those of us who say something about it might as well have some brass bearings. Enough money will make people do and say (sometimes not say) anything.
-- Game Developers: Stop porting badly-textured games from crappy console systems!
Are you saying that these apps can't run on Linux, or have just never been written for Linux?
Given time, more companies will start supporting non-Microsoft operating systems. That's the issue here. If you are a software company and you want to limit your income as a result of supporting a single OS provider (mind you, they aren't supporting Windows, but rather Microsoft by updating their software to make the transitions over the years from DOS to WindowsXP) then fine. As the OS market begins to grow and seperate, your company income will also start to gradually lower.
The fact is that Linux is growing and is the world's fastest growing OS. Companies will eventually be forced to write software for the alternate platforms. A large majority of gaming, 3d rendering, and music software is available for the Mac. It wasn't always this way, but time is changing these things.
OH MAN! That just made my day! If I could mod you up, I would!
"Not like that shite windows, where everything is made for the lowest common denominator -- the dumbass." That's fucking great!
Ahfoo here.
Look Bob, in the future let's try and accentuate the positives rather than focusing on negatives. As the president of one of the biggest Linux desktop distros, this is a poor message to be offering people. MS's advantage is mostly just about good marketing and this kind of leadership from a Linux company is only helping their case. Who cares if there are problems on the desktop, you've got to be a cheerleader buddy. Everybody has problems for chrisakes. Don't take out your emotions in public like this. Grow up man.
You obviously are missing the whole point which is that MS got where they are by being nothing but a bunch of cheerleaders. We got the spirit, yes we do. We got the spirit . . . but what the fuck happened to Bob?
Their desktop is nothing special. A file manager, a web browser, so what? And here you are supposed to be a leader and you're pissing on people's hopes and those people are supporting you. Think about it. Take a frickin' jacuzzi buddy and think aobut what you're doin'.
One factor that tends to get missed over and over again in these discussions is that there are a lot of medium sized and large businesses who would LOVE to get off the MS treadmill. They're tired of the license costs that continue to spiral up. They're tired of their LAN admins and server support people being beaten to death to deal with the latest security/privacy problem. They're tired of the fact that they have to hire 25% to 50% more people to manage the same number of servers. Unfortunately right now they can't.
:) ) they finish, you will see a HUGE amount of pent up demand to move off of Microsoft.
Not because of MS Office. OpenOffice is close to the needed import capability, and the supported file formats make it possible to produce output that others can read.
Not because of perceived lack of support. IBM has been selling their support story to CIOs and CTOs for a year now.
Not because of desktop configuration issues. The toolsets for managing desktop images are becoming client neutral.
Not because of email or Web. Plenty of options for both.
Not because of training costs. We have to retrain people every time a new flavor of any major app comes out. Learning to use OpenOffice on KDE isn't any tougher to learn than MS Office on Win2K.
Right now, I see two areas that hold the bigger companies back; no enterprise wide calendar, and legacy app support.
There may be solutions to the first problem that I'm not aware of. However, iCal support seems to be close to nonexistent. Can anyone prove me wrong there?
The second area is much, much, MUCH more important than the slashdot crowd seems to realize. MS Office? Piffle! How about all the canned apps and in-house developed apps that we run our businesses on? You know, the ones that actually make us money?
Replace them with open alternatives, you say? Great! I'd love to! Show me those alternatives!
(crickets)
The finance industry is notorious for this. I know I've got salesmen talking to our business units right this second, telling them that their Btrieve database running on NetBIOS over NetBEUI will run swimmingly in my IP only WAN for thousands of clients. If I'm lucky, they've gotten around to porting their code to Win32 instead of 16 bit code for Win 3.x or (shudder) DOS.
Think I'm kidding? I spend major portions of my week telling people that we don't want to install this crap, but I'm in no position to say yay or nay. My boss's boss's boss is a real smart cookie who would love to see this shit disappear, but even he isn't in a position to say yay or nay. He is only responsible for working with the business units to figure out TCO, then figuring out how to install and support the final approved solution.
Many times, we are forced to install shit because the business unit went out and signed a contract, or because we're out of time, or because a better alternative just doesn't exist. When that happens, we end up hiding it behind M$ Terminal Services or Citrix, but that doesn't solve all of the problems.
We do have better behaved apps that run directly on our NT/ Win2K desktops that we will HAVE to support for a long time. The majority of it is is off the shelf, with some stuff that we developed in-house. You just don't flash cut hundreds of apps from the existing code base to open alternatives. It takes time.
The only cost effective way to do that is to use Wine or something else with a GPL license. Wine doesn't quite work yet after almost 10 years. When (not if. I have faith in that kind of tenacity.
So, in the end Bob Young is both right and wrong. The market today is in the specialized devices, in the server market, and in the embedded devices. However, the desktop isn't going away, and many businesses will migrate in a heartbeat when the last few problems are resolved.
I'm gald you said 'most cases'. I have found that proper Admin skills and habits are portable accross platforms, but that some platforms lend themselves to better habits than others. Linux has inherited some excellent features from older UNIX varieties, and has inovated some features I hadn't seen, that I like. It's also got some problems, like everything.
Until Linux is made totally user-friendly, it will never claim the desktop. Ever.
Linux will only have a chance when people can keep Linux and their hardware's drivers updated without EVER having to touch the command line.
It's that simple. This may change in a few decades if Linux is still around, and 99% of the working population has grown up with computers.
Some of the other things which I have not seen mentioned (well, not very much so far, which is not to say a whole lot):
DOES LINUX OFFER SUPPORT FOR MY 3DFX VooDoo3 3500 TV AGP VIDEO CARD?
I apologize for the bold text
And what about all the other legacy hardware, or the point and click of it all, or plug and play? Okay, granted, what most people miss are the two most basic elements of windows that they don't even know exist, the registry (please let's don't get into an argument over why MS decided that it was vitally important to store every setting in one location, granted it does a good job, but it has a lot of security flaws) and the MS provided device drivers (yeah, so MS doesn't write all of them, but they do make sure the one's they provide [on their cd-roms] work with the system, and they do provide for most situations up to release date). But this is not really my beef with the win-lin debate.
really, i only miss one thing, and that is a standardized interface. Okay, here me out, before you start flaming me on the gtk/qt/gimp/who-gives-a-f*** front. I may be one hell of a programmer, but trying to figure out every known interface api is a pain in the arse, especially when I am not 100% sure what is out there. most of the time, i just try and make it work. but this seems to me to be the one problem that everyone has with the X desktop. Yeah, the interface is strictly a non-windows thing, and that is a strike at MS, but c'mon, can't we at least make them all look alike?
Please don't get me wrong. KDE does not need to look like Gnome does not need to look like Windows does not need to look like Mac (lack of commas intentional), but can't X windows at least share some splinter of similarity besides the blooming shapes?
I could care less about the games, especially since I can always play quake and xbill (gratuitous x-bill reference here for the karma whoring), but when i cannot use my pc for what i BUILT it for, i get really upset. I built my system for video capture and playing movies ('cos i got this lil bitty room and my mini-atx in the tiny case with no gratuitous onboard [motherboard] components, with dvd and 3dfx vid/capture let's me get rid of a bulky tv, and the sweet lil rack it all sits on also holds all my cd/dvds and my gamestations, all in about 4 sq ft of space), and by golly, if linux won't let me use it for that, then i gotta use windows for that. If i am gonna be forced to use windows for that, then i will continue to use windows to play my (original's beat the look-alikes 6 3/4 days a week) maxis and sid-meier's games
so if anyone can point me to a fully functional driver for my 3dfx voodoo3 3500 tv agp tuner card with svideo and rca hookups, plus the video player that does real time capture, plus a really sweet video editing sweet, on a par with what comes in the windows installation (except for vid editing, for which i use adobe premier), then i will continue to mount this singular frontal assault on the win-lin debate
thank you for your time
2^3 * 31 * 647
Come to think of it, maybe they should.
Just somehow make sure they don't select the 'expert' option when they install (dselect...).
And make a bootable ISO available for woody.
--- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.