Wal-Mart, Moore's Law and Open Source

J.E. Kazor writes: "In MIT's 'Technology Review' magazine, Michael Schrage writes about Wal-Mart, Moore's Law, and Open Source. Perhaps instead of spending all of our energy bashing bashing the 800-pound gorilla, Microsoft, we should align the support of a 900-pound gorilla, such as Wal-Mart. Such a symbol of cost conscious efficiency should embrace the benefits of Open Source."

Comments

Started Happening

[Slashamatic]

One of the greatest things that came out of the improvements, particularly in respect of MRP2/MRP3 was supply chain integration. It certainly the entire chain talking electronically together with EDIFACT and so on. So, we are certainly talking about the adoption of open interface standards.

However, this isn't open software. The problem is that sure, a company like Wall-Mart could move massively to open source, but they would have to be able to justify it to their shareholders. If it means an expansion of the IT department - sorry, that will be a difficult sell. Even if the cost of that increase is less than then the savings. Because, IT is not their core-business and shareholders like focus.

Re:Started Happening

[eam]

They don't have to increase the IT department. They can outsource. Their focus isn't plumbing, but they probably have sinks & toilets. Same thing applies to computers (some more than others).

Depending on what kind of accounting games they are playing outsourcing might even look good to the shareholders.

Nuke this parent

[Flamesplash]

or at least remove that link. :x

Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[the_radix]

So, instead of tackling what many people consider a monopoly, albeit a harmless (in the ecological sense) one, one should ally him- or herself with a company that the majority of liberals in this country believe is both an ecological destroyer and a monopoly on a much worse scale?

Microsoft is software, with a dash of hardware, but they are still a high-tech company. Wal-Mart is a retailer that drives many other small local retailers out of business. Considering how easy it is to get high-tech things on the market through the use of the internet, versus the difficulty of being a local merchant, I would call Microsoft the lesser of two monopolies. If Microsoft suddenly used its power to lower all its prices so that other non-free (beer) software companies couldn't compete and went out of business, would you be happier?

Yeah, I chose Microsoft over Wal-Mart. So mod me.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[Anonymous Coward]

At least Walmart doesn't sell stuff that crashes all the time. Oh wait, Walmart does sell crappy furniture made out of particle board that turns into crap when moved or exposed to water.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[redfenix]

Microsoft doesn't engage in anti-ethical business practices? Surely you jest!

If Wal-Mart emulates the smaller business that it later undersells and bankrupts, wouldn't you call that an economic/retail version of "Embrace and Extend?"

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a personal vendetta against Microsoft, but to say that they have not done the exact thing that Wal-Mart has--only on a software level--is just untrue.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[hillct]

In an ecological sense as well as when you ecamine small town economies in a simplistic sense, Wal-Mart is a great ofender, however the range of damage to the economies of the world doesn't begin to approach the carnage that appears in the wake of Microsoft as it stomps it's way across Tokyo, London, and Washington.

The Open-Source movement doesn't need to select a new enemy so much as recruit allies more effectively. The OSS movement doesn't often address the political issues (to the extent needed) surrounding modification of market models that is at it's core - because the Free Software Foundation isn't getting the job done. This is promarily because the OSS movement is made up primarily of technically savvy indeviduals rather than politically savvy indeviduals. The OSS movement needs to take a page from the NRA with regard to fund raising and political power brokering. OSS proponants often make the mistake of believing that the Electronic Fronteirs Foundation is representing the cause of OSS in the political arena, when in fact the EFF is a civil liberties organization - which serves a great purpose and addresses a great need but does not by charter serve the interests of the OSS community, except where (as is often the case) the civil liberties issues they do address are of interest to the OSS community.

Selecting a new enemy at this time would be admitting defeat. The OSS community doesn't need to select a new enemy so much as confront the selected enemy in the arenas in which it does battle. The Open Source Software Community needs an effective lobying organization acting soecifically in it's interest.

--CTH

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[blkros]

Wal-Mart is a retailer that drives many other small local retailers out of business.
But, Walmart is not a monopoly, and it does better by being more efficient, rather than mowing over everyone in its way. Business is hard. The market rewards efficiency. Kmart used to be a top dog--look at them now. Sears was the top dog for almost a century--look at them now.(Not as bad off as Kmart, but not were they where.) Good business practices help all businesses, even the small ones, because it keeps them sharp.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft 'harmless (in the ecological sense)'???

What the HELL are you on? Every time they sneeze millions of HD and processors and mobs and memory and video cards and sound cards are thrown away, new ones built. I suppose you think all this stuff is built in China because it's cheaper? It's cheaper cuz they don't have to give a crap about the environment, bubba.
The miles of paper involved in the product development, the cars the guys drive to work, etc.. etc... etc...

What the hell are you smoking? I want some!

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[Anonymous Coward]

OSS would be good for Wal-Mart. They can have even more money after they screw over their employees at the end of the day. They may not be a monopoly exactly, but in the southern states they practically are. They have the same type of business practices as MS, just that they implement them over a smaller scaller, spread out. Wal-Mart frequently likes to do union busting. They are the largest employer in the world. And what's their average wage $6/hr probably. If you want to see how bad that company is, just go search a bit in google for them. This would be a bad win of OSS just like S. Korea switching to Linux+Hancom-Office is a bad-win. S. Korea is a horribly corrupt govt and was. Just like S. Vietnam was -- one reason we pulled out of the Vietname "conflict".

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[anthony_dipierro]

Wal-Mart is a retailer that drives many other small local retailers out of business.

Open source software very often drives small local software developers out of business.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[Anonymous Coward]

At least in the good old days (80's), if you had a good software product in one of Microsoft's development areas, there was a chance that you'd get bought out. Not so with Walmart. They drop two Superstores from the mothership within 10 miles of each other, cut off the blood-supply of the surrounding local stores (a slow, horrible death). Then once the competition is gone, dump one of the stores, where half the people who used to OWN their own businesses ended up working for them at $6.50/hr, and move on to the next victims.

Microsoft has done Great Evil(TM), but IMO, hasn't left a trail of destroyed lives as Walmart has.

"Walmart must be destroyed." - Timmy the Elder.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[Nelson]

I think it remains to be seen if Walmart is a monopoly or not. I'd be willing to bet that in a large number of areas where Walmart has a presence in the western US and the midwestern US they are the only source for a large number of products.

They aren't a pure monopoly, but neither is MS, nor was US Steel, or most other monopolies. They are a defacto monopoly in many cases though, just like MS is. The typical Joe 6pack goes and buys a computer, he buys an MS product or a set of them, whether he knows it or not. If you live in rural Kansas or Nebraska or Texas and you need to go buy something, a large percentage of the time it's going to be from walmart, not becuase of cost but because it's the nearest store you know will have the item you wish to buy.

I think the original message hit it on the head with Walmart. If you look at their managment, it's mostly white men, to a startling degree. There have been inqueries and lawsuits around racism and sexism at Walmart. They have a history of union busting, not that I think unions benefit the consumer a whole lot but it's disheartening the know that a corporation has chosen to close a store (a huge part of a local economy) because its employees' political views and associations they may have. And if you take the defacto monopoly business to heart and then realize that they are the only source for music, books, and even medications in some places and then look at what they have chosen to sell and not sell (I'm speaking directly about medication and contraception here, morning after pills, etc.) we're talking about a company that not only has a huge impact on the economy but on the lives of people and how they live them in a lot of places. This is not a company you wish to partner with, I think they make MS look like saints.

Personally, I think the matter of opensource allies is kind of missing the point. We need to keep doing what we're doing. It's not a matter of IBM, Sun, Walmart or E-Trade agreeing to use free software that makes it better or takes it to the next level, those are signs that what's happening is the right thing. This is a community lead effort and if we want things to be better then become part of the community, help out, write code, use it. Looking for allies is passive. If walmart starts using linux, it won't affect or impact any of us any time soon (unless they employ Linus and bully him or something) It might give it more legitimacy but it already has legitimacy and you further legitimize it by using it and working on it. If we work on it and make it better then they will use it becuase it's the best thing to use, that's what's happening elsewhere and that's what undoes the MS monopoly.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[rjkimble]

....one should ally him- or herself with a company that the majority of liberals in this country believe is both an ecological destroyer and a monopoly on a much worse scale?....

I had no idea liberals believe this. I'm going to immediately alter my purchasing habits from now on and try to purchase everything through Wal-Mart.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[Registered Coward v2]

Wal-Mart is a retailer that drives many other small local retailers out of business.

Wal-Mart doesn't drive stores out of business, ratehr, it's the consumers who chose Wal-Mart over their local stores that cause small stores to close. It's a matter of choice, and many people chose to vote with their pocket book. Wal-MArt often is no cheaper than other chains - in fact, their policy is to price at the competitor's prices and make a greater margin due to lower costs. If a competitor wants a price war, they'll fight back and win, but they typically don't start one.

So how do local stores survive - by offering things, such as service and selection, that Wal-Mart doesn't. I buy video games at a small store - I know the owner, and he tajkes care of me. If a game is junk, he recommends not buying it. When PS2's were hot, he had them for his regular customers - at retail price. If I want a certain used game, he'll hold it when he gets it. Wal-Mart doesn't provide that service, and I'll pay a little more for it. He also beats the big chain rentals by charging less and having reasonable late fees - such as a dollar for one day rather than a full 3 day rental price.

Price isn't everything, and by serving customers who value service over price, small stores can survive. Wal-Mart's real threat is to the Kmarts and Targets - which is why Target went up market and KMart looks like it'll stick to urban locations here wal-Mart can't get space and some Super-K's.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[Chester K]

Wal-Mart doesn't drive stores out of business, ratehr, it's the consumers who chose Wal-Mart over their local stores that cause small stores to close. It's a matter of choice, and many people chose to vote with their pocket book. Wal-MArt often is no cheaper than other chains - in fact, their policy is to price at the competitor's prices and make a greater margin due to lower costs. If a competitor wants a price war, they'll fight back and win, but they typically don't start one.

So if this isn't bad, why do we hate Microsoft again?

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[rosewood]

Agreed! Wal-mart is by no means a monopoly. There are Targets, were KMarts, Sears, whole Malls, and then your specialty stores. If Wal-mart drives every single one of these out of business by just being more efficient and not cheating, a la sueing someone out of existance or taking a great loss on a product like US Steal used to or making deals with cities that say if there is a walmart there can be no target, etc. then there will still be room for others to do it bigger badder longer stronger.

Its almost like calling McDonalds a monopoly

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[jtosburn]

This is only true where Wal-Mart has established, large scale competitors.

When Wal-Mart opens a new store, they usually sell many items at a huge loss, ostensibly to draw in new customers. But since many local, small-scale businesses cannot afford to match those below cost prices, they founder and die. Once gone, wal-Mart raises prices. This is called predatory pricing, and is illegal. In that kind of game, the deepest pockets win, which is why when they compete with larger companies (Target et. al.), their prices are similar; they each have enough resources to price match the other for an extended period of time.

Wal-Mart has been found guilty of predatory pricing and fined. But the practice continues. Hence the comment that Wal-Mart drives local, small retailers out of business. They do.

You're right, though, in that one of the real problems is that most people shop to save a buck. They'll drive all over town getting 18 mpg in their SUV because Coke is $0.49 cheaper at Schnucks this week.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[nomadic]

Hmm, that reminds me of one of the senior Bush's campaign slogan, something like "Vote Bush to Annoy the Media". Both pithy statements, and both idiotic motives to base your decisions on.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[Hostile17]

I know the owner, and he tajkes care of me.

This is a lesson more people should learn. I work for one of the big computer OEM houses, but I don't buy our own products. I go to a small Ma and Pop shop not far from where I live. Even though they are more expensive then buying from my own company, especially with my employee discount, they give me what my employer can never hope to give me. I easily spend $5000 a year on computer equipment, to my company, this is nothing, a drop in the bucket. But to these people that makes me one of thier best customers. They know me by name, and treat me like a friend, sometimes cut me good deals, and talk honestly about new products. When I was having trouble with one of my systems, the store owner took the system home with him, fixed it and charged me only for the parts. When my wife was in the hospital not long, they sent her flowers. Try to get that kind of service from Compaq, Dell or IBM.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[wierdo]

I think it remains to be seen if Walmart is a monopoly or not. I'd be willing to bet that in a large number of areas where Walmart has a presence in the western US and the midwestern US they are the only source for a large number of products.

While this is not true in Wal-Mart's back yard (there is nothing I can find at Wal-Mart in the NW Arkansas area that I can't get elsewhere), in many small towns across the Western US, it is true. Oftentimes, however, it is true because Wal-Mart came in and built a market for certain goods that were simply unavailable previously without a drive to a larger town. In many cases, Wal-Mart has done well for cities and towns, while in many other cases it has driven all of the local competition out of the market. There's really no way to tell which will happen until the store is open, and that is the problem I have with all the Wal-Mart "NIMBYism"

-Nathan

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[vectus]

I choose microsoft, too.

Walmart uses sweatshops and I personally don't feel like supporting slavery.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[PaulBu]

Maybe because in current MS-dominated world there is actulally too little place for a TRUE choice?

I can buy my shirt in WalMart, a tie in tiny corner store, and a jacket in Saks 5th Ave. Nowhere in the Wearable Goods End User Agreement it says that I can not mix and match stuff, and all of it fits perfectly together!

We can not really do that in software world now, do we?

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[c_jonescc]

Walmart is NOT more efficient. They just use cheaper labor, as in pseudo-slave labor. Walmart has a history of human rights and workers rights violations up to par with companies like the Gap and Nike.

It's easy to be cheaper when your "producers" are starving to death, forced to work 20 day, not allowed to organize, and are forced into birth control and abortions for the sake of "efficiency".

Remember how badly it hurt Kmart when people realized that Kathy Lee's clothing line was made in sweat shops? That's because their cost went way up suddenly, while their competitor, Walmart, didn't have to change a thing.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[Yankovic]

I realize this is an unpopular opinion, but embrace and extend is not illegal or unethical. MS thinks that they have a better solution to a problem and solves it themselves. The OSS community believes that no one company should solve a problem because this leads to solutions controlled by one company. Mod me overrated or flamebait but it's not illegal or unethical, it's just a way of solving a problem.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[blkros]

It's easy to be cheaper when your "producers" are starving to death, forced to work 20 day, not allowed to organize, and are forced into birth control and abortions for the sake of "efficiency".
Huhh.
Won't have workers for too long if they keep starving to death and can't reproduce.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[Perdo]

"many people chose to vote with their pocket book."

It sure would be nice if I had a pocket book I could vote with. Except these are the real voters. Enron is a classic example. They got their guy elected, set the US's energy policy and placed their executives into positions where they could do the most good for big oil. This is not new and it's not going to stop. Moron defending big business. Brainwashed into thinking that they are on your side.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[Anonymous Coward]

I voted Bush because he was the best candidate for the office. The media annoyance was merely a beneficial side effect.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[Anonymous Coward]

Well the only problem is that Kathy Lee's clothing line was sold ONLY at Wal-Marts , not at K-Mart . Wal-Mart was once again pushing products made by 9 year olds for 20 cents a day .

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[Tardigrade]

Enron wanted to be bailed out, but they weren't. Enron wanted the Kyoto Protocol signed (they've been investing in Kyoto Protocol positive projects), but it wasn't. I hate it when people are this ignorant.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[Anonymous Coward]

Listen, Robert, I know your earning minimum wage. but in your own words, "In many cases it'll be something you disagree with. That, in itself, is not my *primary* determination to boycott" you will not show a spine. Spend all day in the library reading and playing with wearables to escape from reality. Show a spine Dammit! your troubled childhood is no excuse.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[Bob Uhl]

You've got be kidding. Wal-Mart is great. It brings decent quality goods at great prices to rural towns. The local retailers can't compete: that's their problem. The populace chooses Wal-Mart. They'd be fools not to. In the town of Sherman, Tx. (where I went to college), the Wal-Mart was a 24 grocery, toy store, gun & ammo shop and furniture store. They had lobsters, for Pete's sake! Only some big-city high-income-bracket sort would begrudge those in the boonies the joy of a Wal-Mart.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[isdnip]

Read the araticle. Wal-Mart IS more efficient. They are a distribution company, and they distribute things (from manufacturer to consumer) very efficiently by means of very good IT.

They are by no means alone in using cheap labor -- Gap and Nike do, and usually have much higher prices. I do not condone the labor violations that Wal-Mart and other stores may be committing (nor am I rendering judgement), but the whole point of the Technology Review article was that Wal-Mart automates its supply chain better than its competitors, so inventory is more carefully ordered and moved around.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[Anonymous Coward]

" if I had a pocket book I could vote with."

Well, whose fault is it ?
I mean, some people are born losers and you seem to be one of them.

Moron defending leftist idiots who have only questions and never answers...

Brainwashed into thinking that THEY are on your side.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[Sabalon]

Schnucks - there is a store name I haven't heard in 17 years.

No real content here.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[DoctaWatson]

Here in Oklahoma, Wal-Mart has:

-Lobbied Heavily and successfully for "Right to Work" to kill any hope of organized labor in the state.

-Been censured time and time again for starting price wars and undercutting competition by selling things BELOW cost until the competition is out of business.

-Has vigorously lobbied the state government to get rid of the laws that keep it from selling below cost.

There are a lot of reasons to hate Wal-Mart, especially if you're from the mid-west.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[4of12]

If you search around on the web you can find evidence of local, grass roots opposition to the ruthlessly efficient business practices of Walmart of building a megastore in an otherwise small or undeveloped neighborhood.

There's a great deal of money involved, and Walmart has used it's advertising dollars well by getting Paul Harvey, the Voice of Trust as far as many midwesterners are concerned, to talk about how they are "good neighbors", trumpeting charitable giving (even if it's really financed by local employee donations instead of corporate largesse), etc.

The reality is somewhat different from the Walmart advertising. Everyone loves the cheap goods that result from the economies of scale that Walmart enjoys. They dislike the congestion around a Walmart store, wouldn't want one located right next door to their house, dislike the anti shoplifting guards at the store exits snooping over their receipts, and find that the jobs are generally part-time, low-paying, without lots of benefits, staffed by retirees who need the income to supplement their meager social security checks.

Apart from devastating small local merchants, the Walmart stores tend to use a pricing structure so that certain loss leader items are buttressed by the less common items being overpriced.

And, IMHO, the quality of the goods from Walmart is less than from Sears or from other retail outlets. Low price, low price, low price.

Then there's the homogenizing effect of Walmart on our culture. In America, it's just kind of depressing, while in Europe, I think there is downright antagonism to Walmart.

When their marketing surveys show a need for a change of venue, Walmart has no compunction leaving a big box store vacant and building a brand new one in a different, erstwhile pristine, location. You've never seen a sorrier looking place than an old, abandoned Walmart store.

I don't mean to single out Walmart for heavy criticism; there are other retailers that behave similarly. It's just that it today's world, you get plenty of advertising to tell you one version of reality and the other version you just kind of have to pick up.

And, you can't argue that they haven't been successful as a business. Owning Walmart stock for the past decade has been lucrative.

But, despite some advantages their size gives them over their competitors, Walmart is not a monopoly in the sense that Microsoft is a monopoly. When 90% of most retail goods are sold through Walmart, and when suppliers start to get browbeaten by Walmart executives to thwart competitors, then one can start to make a comparison.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[Anonymous Coward]

Enron wanted energy futures trading markets without government oversight, and got those.

Re:Microsoft the lesser of those two evils

[Tardigrade]

What are you talking about? Who are you? I have a few guesses, but am not sure. I don't seek to escape from reality; I just emailed my Rep a few days ago protesting over his pork-barreling.

I had no troubled childhood, merely a troubled early-adulthood. I'm over that now.

cost conscious efficiency?

[Drakin]

ok... have you ever worked there? I have (and still do). While wal-mart is -extreamly- cost conscious, and their prices couldn't be better... they however don't, in my experiance put forth funds in some areas (ie Maitnance, proper staff levels) that they could and should.

Re:cost conscious efficiency?

[ackthpt]

proper staff levels

This is what always blows me away at Walmart, is the insane number of helpers they have wandering around. If you stand in a spot for more than 30 second looking pensive, they'll rush right up to you and offer assistance in finding whatever you're looking for, sometimes annoying, but usually getting the shopping done and out of the store before you can submit to impulse shopping.

I used to work for a logistics company and it was recognised that Walmart's major success was theire logistics end. They do their own trucking and warehousing and have it down pat, enough that they are beating the other retailers with it. As that's part of the infrastructure that makes Walmart such a success, I imagine the savings there is what translates into the ability to staff with everyone but the goatse.cx guy.

Getting Walmart to change such a model system isn't goint to be any kind of cakewalk.

Now, if Walmart were to be managed by some of the greedy fsckwits, like many companies and corporations are, that recognise, in the short term, shrinking a business is more profitable than growing it (just long enough for them to get a fscking huge salary bonus and get the hell out before it collapses), you might find someone willing to cut out whatever proprietary software fees they're dealing with now. Problem being, that would be only the first part (aside from clearing out all those floorwalkers to get the immediate profit up), once they got about halfway into it they'd slash the IT budget, lose a bunch of expensive IT pros and you'd have chaos and Kmart would rise from the ashes like a phoenix.

Re:cost conscious efficiency?

[Drakin]

Staff levels are deen differnty from both sides of that blue smock or vest. Trust me on this.

A customer only cares if there's someone there to help them. As a worker, I also know that the shelves need ot be kept organised, that there needs to be shelf lables made, items need to be restocked. Things don't get done, at least a lot of it. While the department managers have close to 2 hours prior to opening to do things... they don't manage to get enough done, and it falls upon other employees to pick up the slack. Have 1 extra employee working a middle of the day shift per 2 department managers (or even 3) would allow a lot more to get done, with only minimal cost increase.

PostgreSQL developers are you listening?

[_typo]

Imagine the ripple-or rather, tsunami-effect on the future of systems design and development in the retail, wholesale and consumer goods sectors. What happens to a Microsoft or Oracle in that environment?

So if PostgreSQL reaches 7.3 with full replication support and if Redhat (or Suse or whatever) support it (and Linux) well, we might get some major corporate players on our side. It would be huge.

Forget about Oracle changing all it's servers over to Linux. Oracle is a 1000-pound gorilla that requires manual tuning for performance and that (i've been told) has crap support tools.

Re:PostgreSQL developers are you listening?

[teg]

So if PostgreSQL reaches 7.3 with full replication support and if Redhat (or Suse or whatever) support it (and Linux) well, we might get some major corporate players on our side.

Red Hat already supports and ships a version of PostgreSQL: Red Hat Database

Great but....

[MtViewGuy]

One thing though: Wal-Mart has invested so much time and money on its own IT system that the cost of conversion to Linux (especially the retraining of IT staff) could end up being more than the cost of continuing to keep the licenses for their proprietary software setup.

Re:Great but....

[md_doc]

When you add it up the 4 billion they spent on the system they are discussing here only a small portion... maybe 5 million or so was spent on licenses. In the grand scheme of things 5 million is not much at all to spend on licenses.

Sure I like the idea that it could be less expensive but I think that the less expensive part comes when you are a smaller company that has a linux geek in there that can make everything work transparently for you. See you save a lot if you can use MySQL or another open database instead of psending 40k on an oracle license for a processor. Right there that almost pays the linux geeks slarary for the year.

Re:Great but....

[Drakin]

How much retraining is nessisary in changeing from UNIX to Linux?

But I don't think you'll see walmart change to linux, what they have right now (combination of UNIX and NT servers, at least on store level, not sure about central office) works. It isn't broken, so why cut into profits.

Re:Great but....

[wsloand]

I really doubt that cost is an issue to Wal-Mart. If they thought that they could get a 2-5% increase in productivity from Linux then they'd probably be using it immediately. The issue here is still that they want the best, most efficient output of hardware and software.

Linux runs best on Intel. Intel's architecture would require more machines (which would cost less in total, but refer to the first sentence of this for the answer to that). Intel architecture is less efficient than Sun. For most DB type applications, Sun is the best. That I know of (in less than supercomputer markets) there is no better architecture for databases. Therefore (as mentioned in another post) Wal-Mart uses Sun. Solaris is the best OS on Sun hardware, therefore Wal-Mart uses Solaris.

Re:Great but....

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with this sentiment completely. Overall the initial cost of the liscencing is roughly 1-2 percent of the cost of the lifetime of the products usefulness. Linux needs to provide a greater return to be successful in the business space.

Re:Great but....

[xtremex]

If they moved to a *NIX solution, they could fire half the IT staff. *NIX does not need the round-the-clock support as NT does. But then again, why make the unemployment worse than it already is? Oh yeah!!!! We can just import people from third world countries to do it! (Damn, they already thought of that!) OK..forget what I said :)

Advice

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't eat so much flax. Oh, and don't use the syringe.

The Bazaar

[JohnBE]

bazaar n. 1 CHARITIBLE SALE a sale of goods to raise money for charity 2. SHOP SELLING MISCELLANEOUS ITEMS a retail store that sells a wide variety of itens 3. MIDDLE EASTERN STREET MARKET a street market in middle eastern countries.

However ;-) I don't think ESR was talking about that when he wrote his book.

Re:The Bazaar

[God! Awful]

In The Cathedral and the Bazaar, Eric Raymond tells us that the open source movement does not endanger our programming jobs because 90% of software is not aimed at desktop PCs. If big retailers like Wal Mart were to go OSS, wouldn't this tend to endanger ESR's premise?

-a

Re:The Bazaar

[Anonymous Coward]

However ;-) I don't think ESR was talking about that when he wrote his book.

No he wasnt. A bazaar is a collection of many merchants all trying to put your dollar in their pocket. A bazaar may have 3-8 shops all selling the same or equal items. When you have several collections of these 3-8 shops (more or less) all competing for profit you have a bazaar. One retail store, all under one manager/profit motive is not a bazaar.

Even the modern day shopping malls are not a real bazaar in my opinion. There is not enough competition, i.e. similar stores, in a mall to produce real competition in alot of shops. Then again, maybe I just live in smallville.

real reviews, real good books for your favorite OS
www.os-library.com

whaa?

[Anonymous Coward]

what's an 'embeace'?

Re:whaa?

[Anonymous Coward]

Q what's an 'embeace'?
A A simple typo. Get a life.

Decent article.

[alsta]

The interesting part is that we should align ourselves and pledge support to companies that do the right thing(tm). IBM is one of them. Buy IBM servers and laptops. IBM is a big customer of Microsoft's and can make a big dent in the PR of the Redmond giant. IBM would be a company who can help Wal-Mart.

But then again, who is to say that IBM won't turn into a monopoly just because they play nice now?

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Re:Decent article.

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a good read on how IBM did the right thing in the late 30's - 40's...

http://www.bhny.com/pow/POW032.html

Well, at least Walmart.de runs on FreeBSD

[rainer_d]

It's a beginning ;-)
Walmart.com runs with IIS on Linux...

Re:Well, at least Walmart.de runs on FreeBSD

[jjsjeff]

First time I've ever seen that. Last time I knew, no Microsoft software runs on linux! Could they be running the open source webserver that Microsoft released a while ago?

-Jeff

Re:Well, at least Walmart.de runs on FreeBSD

[Anonymous Coward]

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/accuracy.html#imposs ible

Re:Well, at least Walmart.de runs on FreeBSD

[[Entropy]]

Taken from http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/accuracy.html:

Why do you report impossible operating system/server combinations?

Webservers that operate behind a caching system, load balancer, reverse proxy server or a firewall may sometimes report the operating system of the intermediate machine. Hence reports of 'Microsoft/IIS on Linux' may indicate that either the web server is behind a Linux server that is acting as a reverse proxy, or has configured the Akamai caching system such that the first request to the site goes to one of Akamai's servers [which run Linux], or as in the case of www.walmart.com has been configured to send a misleading signature.

Re:Well, at least Walmart.de runs on FreeBSD

[jjsjeff]

Thanks.

Wal-mart is a tough customer

[jACL]

When working for a past employer who sells its merchandise through Wal-Mart, I was exposed to its methods.

As a retailer with Wal-Mart, your product has to maintain a 98% sell-through rate, or you don't sell through Wal-Mart anymore. (This, by the way, says something to me about the Mandrake distro, which still sells at Wal-Mart.) You're required to keep track of the inventory using Retail Link.

Wal-Mart piloted Retail Link across the Internet via VPN in 1995 using Sun's Sunscreen product, prior to the standards even being accepted -- they're a bleeding edge company. Wal-Mart is always keeping an eye on ways to streamline its operation and cut costs. You can bet they've already checked out Linux. If it saves them on operating margins, they'll be ahead of the curve.

Re:Wal-mart is a tough customer

[PD]

What does "sell-through rate" mean? I am but a simple computer programmer, unacustomed to your strange language...

Re:Wal-mart is a tough customer

[Drakin]

How well the product sells in a given period of time. It doesn't sell well, they won't carry it anymore.

Re:Wal-mart is a tough customer

[mobets]

I'm guessing, but I think it has something to do with weather the product actualy sells, as oposed to just sitting on the shelf and taking up space.

Re:Wal-mart is a tough customer

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm guessing, but I think it has something to do with weather

I think it does too. Have you ever been to Walmart on a rainy day, you should see all the linux geeks just standing there warming their hands over that big yellow star thing on the Madrake distros.

Re:Wal-mart is a tough customer

[Kirkoff]

Sell-through rate is how much of your product sells between stocking cycles. The optimal situation is that you're getting new stock as you run out of the last shipment. Anything that is extra above that is inefficiency.

Also, I'd have to say that Target is a pretty rough company. They require not only a large amount of stock, but a gaurentee that you'll have a HUGE amount ready to sell to them. If your product doesn't sell well, they don't reorder and you're stuck with thousands of units that you don't have orders for.

Productivity

[tsprad]

"Computers can be found everywhere but in the productivity statistics." --Robert Solow

Somebody important has also noticed. I feel vindicated ;-)

Re:Productivity

[cyberon22]

The only problem with the Solow paradox is that it's wrong.... ;)

Solow made his infamous statement in 1986, long before email, the Internet, and even word processing were standard business tools. More recent stats tell us that productivity SURGED in the late 1990s (at least in the US). Slashdotters might even remember (fondly?) the debate from about three years ago when some were questioning if any limits remained to perpetual productivity gains!

This is a nicely written piece, but he has no evidence other than rampant speculation to suggest that Wal-Mart is somehow a greater source of productivity gain in the American economy than... say... email, or the plummetting costs of telecommunications.

A nicely written article, but Schrage should be more careful not to draw such unsubstantiated conclusions.

Walmart employees

[Flamesplash]

Recently I have started labeling stores that have simply gone down hill as "having Walmart employees". Walmart's commercials show happy employees who love their job in a clean orderly store, but aparantly those in charge of making the advertisements have never been to a walmart before. I have never been in a walmart store where the employees did not sneer at me when I asked them where something was. Heaven forbid I ask them to do their jobs.

I would hate it if these ppl had written anything I use. Walmart may look good at the management level but the people in the trenches aren't a nice sight.

Re:Walmart employees

[NiceGeek]

Trust me...If you worked there you wouldn't have anything to smile about. I did for about a year and as a result swore to never, never, never work retail again.

Re:Walmart employees

[sargon666777]

Speaking of Walmart employees... I had one go ape shit on me. I asked him "Sir where are your 64 meg MMC's?" He then asked "Whats a MMC?" So I pulled one out and showed him... He said oh there over there... So I walk over there and there is a locked case with MMC's. Well since its locked I go back to him, and say "Umm sorry to bother you, but the case appears to be locked. Could you open it for me or tell me who can" He said "I can open it". THEN WALKED OVER TO THE PLEXIGLASS CASE PICKED IT UP, AND SLAMMED IT ON THE GROUND. REACHED DOWN PICKED UP MY MMC, and then calmly said "now its open" through down his smock, and walked off :-). Im assuming he quit/got fired.. my guess is he will end up in a Post office.

Re:Walmart employees

[Glytch]

Ain't that the truth! As a poor student trying to earn some money as a walmart electronics drone, I'm kinda saddened by all the bullshit that goes on from customers, managers and employees.

I'm also saddened by the fact that I'm only person in the department who knows *anything* about stereos, TVs, video games, etc. Every other electronics drone there fought their way up from cashier jobs just so they'd have en excuse not to have to go anywhere else in the store, lest they develop a foot blister or something. I think I'm the only decent human being there. Well, with exception of someone who's name starts with S, a nice older lady who actually tries to help people out and learn about what we sell! Shocking, I know.

As opposed to someone else who's named starts with C, the absolute living incarnation of every "yes, manager" hellish walmart drone ever created, mashed together into one single not-quite-human being. You know the type.

I've heard the *department manager* try to convince a customer that the "Nintendo X-Box" was a better buy than the "Sony Playgame" because it could play DVD and VHS movies as well as play Pokemon. I wish I were making this up.

Re:Walmart employees

[keefebert]

I think it is all retail employees you are speaking of, not just ones at Wal-Mart. There are few retail jobs that are worth working, so most of these employees are bitter they are not in one of the good positions.

Re:Walmart employees

[javaman83]

i understand completely. i also am the only one in my electronics department that knows anything. if someone asks one of the other ones a question they will tell them to call whenever i am there. i am basically working text support without getting paid for it.

Re:Walmart employees

[javaman83]

bah tech support
it is going to be that kind of day

Re:Walmart employees

[xtremex]

I remember seeing an employee at a Comp-USA once (like Fry's), who was SORELY overworked. He was the ONLY guy who had a friggin clue. I heard his name called over the speaker over 20 times in a 30 minute period. I felt like if he quit, the store would go under! So , I offered the guy a job at my data center! (He was one of the best employees I had)
Maybe, if someone in a managerial position in the IT dept would scout out these guys, we would have fewer people "under-employed"

Re:Walmart employees

[DRACO-]

I currently work at a Walmart. I am that guy that everyone calls for. In our store our electronics employees have to cover more than just electronics. We end up covering for electonics, domestics, toys, stationary, furniture, carryouts, code 7 (carts, and loading customer cars), maintenance, assembly (putting together stock to make a display such as a chair/desk/tv display), Customer Service, Layway, Stocking, freight unloading. I end up covering a lot of areas, usually 3 areas at one time.

A day I only cover electronics is a day the mangers are all in. Furniture at my store only has one employee, the department manager. On weekends all department managers are off. When he is gone, electonics guys end up hauling out those 100lb to 200lb desks, tv centers to customers cars. Im always fighting large boxes of furniture, 31 to 35 inch tvs by myself, a 5ft 10in average build guy.

I have customers griping and wheezing over out of stock inventory in furniture when i have my own problems in electronics. There is just no way to make an object just appear out of nowhere. The day they create the transporter like in star trek, will be the day my job gets easy.

I can attest to the gripy walmart employee thing. There are a lot of bad tempered people at walmart. It is all in the tone of how things are said. The other day we had one person working maintence cuz everyone else called in sick. I called twice for maint to come mop an area in electronics cuz some dolt let their kids spill their gooey milkshake all over the floor in front of the game display cabinets. The guy showed up griping that it's just him. We lightened the tension by joking that we made the mess just for him. He realized he didnt need to be mad at us and joked back with us. He came back by a few times offering more jokes.

What turns me the most sour are the customers that belive there is no riff raff in our stores, who are appauled by the thought that there might be theives in the stores. It's a mind job on many of them to see our security guys catch someone and send them off with the local cops. In the past month my department has had a 27 inch tv stolen through automotive and 3 large stereos have turned up missing. We had one lady try to return a computer which came straight from electronics and had not been sold. Our store manager has declared an act of war against theft. Our department is having a meeting on monday at 6 am about security and other things. I told some managers that we need someone in furniture or an extra hand in electronics to help cover furniture. I think that's where our security is broken.

I dog customers around electronics at times, asking them if they need anything and watch for suspicous activities. But as soon as I have to carry something out, that's one less person to watch customers around the floor.

I tracked one guy all the way to automotive where he opened up some seat covers and shoved some cds in. The guy was setting up to buy the seat covers filled with a bunch of cds. I picked up the box after he went back for more cds, and ended up pissing the group off, they left the store empty handed and dignity broken. I also heard a report of one customer, an older guy, who bought a garden hose in a box, and got it home and found it full of cds. He returned the cds telling the shocking story.

Somedays the best of us get grumpy. When I get upset I go find some boring repeatable task to do. Many other associates dont have that freedom to find another task to do. Some are assigned specific tasks and have absoloutely nothing else they can do.

I have had my outs with a few associates. One griped me out for not being at the register. She says "Get in there, You know where you are supposed to be!" Im like, it's not where Im supposed to be. Im sales floor associate. I have no buisness staying at an empty register. The management decided to install a new rule. That there be a casher at those registers after 9 pm till morning. Well someone forgot to tell us about it. I responded to her with "Excuse me?" She then said "You are supposed to be at your regsiter now get in there." I was so floored by having a stocker tell me what to do. That stocker no longer works in my area. We made sure of that. We complained to management and she wasnt to return to our area again. She thought she was the boss premo. She has some stature of being on the safety team. It makes her think she has some manageral weight to throw around. She has absolutly no buisness working at walmart. She just stays because no one has the balls to fire her ass, or tell her off about her aditude.

One of the rules that is supposed to be enforced is, every associate wear a weight belt when lifting. Lifting large objects, or simply running a register, lifting the usual small products, you are supposed to wear that belt. This woman gets it in her craw that she has to write someone up every day about not having their belt. She goes around and asking associates if they have their belt on. She accused one of my co workers of not having her belt on, the girl pulls up her shirt to show the witch she has her belt on under her shirt. The witch once almost bothered me about a belt, which I had on under my vest. I gave her a daggered stare and she backed off before finishing off her question "DO YOU HAV..." She knows not to bother me. Ill call management down on her, and management is just looking for a good deep reason to get rid of her.

DRACO-

Re:Walmart employees

[Glytch]

Yeah. I've got similiar problems. One of my *favourite* things is when the head manager (a home office hatchet man who's been in charge of 24 stores in 20 years) comes by, demanding to know why there's always two people in electronics when there's few customers around and no cleaning left to do. "You're just standing around! One of you go into chemicals and clean up." My partner shrugs helplessly, knowing I'm a better salesman, and goes off to clean up.

And then the head manager has the gall to wonder why we didn't have two people in the department when some guy steals a dvd player while the thief's partner has me distracted! Asshole.

He's also the same head mananger who kept the store drastically understaffed during the christmas season (while the store was making record profits) just so there would be less expenses, and thus, a bigger bonus for him at the end of the year. Second to last saturday night before christmas, I was all alone from 7pm to 11pm. Four hours alone on one of the busiest shopping days of the year. Insanity.

Microsoft-IIS/5.0 (WindowsNT) on Linux.

[Dix]

That's what www.walmart.com is running according to Netcraft ...

Re:Microsoft-IIS/5.0 (WindowsNT) on Linux.

[Trevelyan]

assumption thats when execs tell their tech ppl to use MS for servers, and tech ppl just install linux, and edited apache to report as IIS. I see/hear of this happening more and more now a days.

Some one in another post said that retraining IT ppl would cost more then ms lic. but if it is the case that they were running linux any way (behind execs back) then they wrong.

plus I guessing (still undere above assumption) that execs have just found out what the tech ppl done/doing, and instead of forcing them to put MS on are turning this to thier advantage (joining the IBM bandwagon)

Re:Microsoft-IIS/5.0 (WindowsNT) on Linux.

[nneul]

Wouldn't running IIS behind a Squid or other linux based proxy server yield the same results with netcraft?

Re:Microsoft-IIS/5.0 (WindowsNT) on Linux.

[chrisP_999]

Exactly. See netcrafts FAQ.

Wal-Mart and Open Source? Never...

[dtdns]

I for one work for Wal-Mart, and do not think they will ever embrace "open-source" in the manner that many would like, at least not in the next 5-6 years anyway.

I can tell you that they do use several types of operating systems through their stores, such as a minimized version of DOS for the handheld terminals, HP-UX as part of the POS (point-of-sale) network, another UNIX for the SMART (Systematic Merchendising and Applied Retail Technology) system, as well as Windows NT/2000 servers to cache all those ads you see playing on "Wal-Mart TV" in electronics (and throughout hanging TV's in some stores).

Would it be cost-effective for Wal-Mart to go Open Source? Not likely. The turnover in staff at the home office alone, combined with training for new positions, etc, would cost millions, not to mention that they would have to literally double their server count at all of their 3,000+ stores. They would need to develop, test and deploy thousands of servers with the new software, hook them into the existing systems to take over various jobs, and then remove the existing servers. All of that for what, to save licensing fees? No, I don't think so.

Wal-Mart has spent BILLIONS of dollars on its current infrastructure, and to change it drastically would cost even more. Wal-Mart keeps it's "everyday low prices" that way specifically because they do NOT do things like this.

Now, the Cart Pusher is a wonderful tool that they are getting for most of the stores, however, which will help save hundreds of thousands on accidents, injuries and other damages. And people wonder why Wally World does so well...

Bad analogy to Slavemart.

[outofoptions]

Walmart forces people to work off the clock. It has been on the news and I have had employees confirm this to me. They set a 'goal' and if they don't reach it they are expected to punch out and return to thier job off the clock. Some efficiancy! Agressive accounting? The hours don't show up on the books but the work does. Wait, don't most open source coders donate their time? Opps! Sorry. Never mind.

Re:Bad analogy to Slavemart.

[Drakin]

Uh. That's a big violation of company policy. Management can get in serious crap if the employee calls up regional/head office (which they're entitled to). I'd say those employees don't know their rights.

Re:Bad analogy to Slavemart.

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't most tech companies do that too ?

Re:Bad analogy to Slavemart.

[ichimunki]

Forget company policy. It's violation of the Federal Law. My first call would not be to regional management, but to the government.

Re:Bad analogy to Slavemart.

[DRACO-]

NOT AT MY STORE!

They do insist that you not work over 40 hours... no overtime! If you run out of time, you go home, leave it to some other drone if possible, or just leave it. If my boss asks me to stay, I stay on the clock, no clocking out. If I need more hours, or if i need to work overtime, I have to ask about it. If I end up on overtime without asking, they will gripe. But during some parts of the year, overtime is not a problem (Christmas, special holidays where, you get paid o/t anyways and special circumstances, everyone calls in dead but you).

It has been posted at our timeclocks that it is walmart policy not to allow associates to work off the clock. We are allotted a 30 min lunch and 1 15 min break (on the clock break, lunch off the clock) if we work less than 6 hours that day. We are allotted 1 hour lunch and 2 15 min breaks (on the clock breaks, lunch off the clock). I dont get my breaks that often. Im usually too busy to have time to do so, or I have too many dumb cashiers working with me that I cant leave as I am the department brain for the day.

DRACO-

Re:Bad analogy to Slavemart.

[Anonymous Coward]

Car mechanics work off the clock, too. If they can't finish the job "by the book", i.e., the big book that sets how long it should take a job, or if they don't do it right the first time, they only get paid the first time around for the book amount, and any time after that is "off the clock"...

How many of us work salaried jobs, and put in plenty of time that hourlies would get paid OT for?

The Devil you know...

[djberg96]

Is Microsoft. The Devil you don't know is Walmart.

I don't make deals with the Devil - any devil.

See How Walmart is Destroying America (and what you can do about it) by Bill Quinn for more details.

Wal Mart is the enemy

[analemma]

Wal-Mart is perhaps worse to more people than Microsoft. You may not see it, since most of you live in a ksh shell. ( or you probably don't care, since your lives are ransacked with consumerism, Wal Mart has what you want, and you can't stop.)

Try here for more information.

Re:Wal Mart is the enemy

[xtremex]

I dont shop at Walmart..for the main reason there isn't one anywhere near me. If I DO go to a cheapy store, I'll go to Target. (Although I really hate the cheapy stores. The clientele, the rudeness, the mess, it's not worth it)

walmart == the devil

[feed_me_cereal]

What a load. Walmart has destroyed more private buisnesses than microsoft could ever hope to. It might be easy for a tech type to see microsoft as a bigger bully than walmart, but if you look beyond the tech market you'll see that walmart embracing opensource is like enron embracing campaign finance reform.

Re:walmart == the devil

[nomadic]

like enron embracing campaign finance reform.

Better analogy--like Enron embracing the Kyoto Treaty. Which they did, but not for any moral or ethical reasons...

Re:walmart == the devil

[Anonymous Coward]

They did not, you fucking moron.
People did that by choosing to buy at Wal-Mart instead in local store.
It is called fucking free market and future "22 year old male living in Columbus" does not look good if that male does not know such simple concepts.

Re:walmart == the devil

[Anonymous Coward]

>What a load. Walmart has destroyed more private >buisnesses than microsoft could ever hope to.

Ahh, no. There is always a competitor to Wal-mart in almost all of their locations. Many ppl elected to buy at wal-mart, but they could have gone to the competitors - target, jc penny, sears, monkey swords, k-mart, etc. You will notice that some are out of business or chap 11 becuase they refused to change with the times and learn how to operate efficiently. M$ is a monopoly and they routinely buy any small business who is in their way or they destroy them. Wal-mart simply out does the competition.

I admire them for it, but I do not shop at wal-mart for what they did in Ft. Collins CO. They destroyed the largest, oldest grove of cotton woods in CO to place their store. From what I heard, it was projected to be their top performer for the next three years and fortunatly was their worst. That apparently forced them to change their attitudes towards the community ( the architechural firm that did this was from OK). I guess that communities can punish those who would seek to profit at any cost ( a good lesson for M$ is there, but it will be missed).

Re:walmart == the devil

[feed_me_cereal]

This has to be the dumbest reply I've ever recieved... Did you read ANY of the other comments on this article??? Have you lived in a cave for the last 30 years??? That's funny that you mention things from my personal website when you post anonymously. Pretty easy to talk shit behind that curtain, but I guess that's why you have to post with "coward" in your name. It just tells me you have no faith in what you're stating, which you shouldn't, because it's complete horseshit. Allow me to explain what a "free market" entails:

Company A, by a mixture of better practices, investments, and dumb luck gets a faily large ammount of capital. Then they move out to some small town serviced by several local privately owned buisnesses, lets say, companies B,C, and D. Company A opens a store that has everything that companies B,C,and D have, and sets the prices lower than B,C, and D could possibly set them. Company A knows it's not making a profit, but they don't care because they have plenty of money in the bank; they can handle a few losses. They know that once they drive companies B,C,and D out of buisness, they can set whatever prices they want because the only choice that anyone in this small town has anymore is company A. B, C, and D didn't have the money A had, so they could not set their prices below a profit-earning level. Now that B,C, and D are out of buisness, A can set whatever prices they want. The people in the small town no longer have any choice. A can repeat this practive until there are walmarts... er... I mean company A's all over the country!

This is why we have laws against monopolies. Walmart creates localized monopolies. There aren't as many laws against that, so they're free to fuck over our private buisnesses. I guess that the real reason they're able to do this, tho, is that clueless assholes like you shop there. I hope you learned something today.

Re:walmart == the devil

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to agree.

Wal Mart going open source would be like Microsoft releasing the source code to Windows XP under the GPL! It won't happen.

AMEN Brother - Mod Parent up please

[isolation]

I wonder if the moderators and trolls on slashdot are the same type of people one would see in a Wal-Mart at 3am. =P

Re:AMEN Brother - Mod Parent up please

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not a troll, but I am an insomniac who occasionally goes on 3:00am shopping trips to make productive use of time that would otherwise be spent tossing and turning. Go fuck yourself.
Oh, and I'm not the one who modded you down; someone else thought you were a dipshit too.

I've done Oracle DBA

[Moderation abuser]

And it's a pain in the arse. Completely over deployed. Twit IT managers insist on Oracle for little databases that couldn't remotely be called mission critical.

It requires so much work that other RDBMS simply don't.

Oracle's fine for *big* stuff where you have a dozen DBAs working on a project but it's like taking a jet 5 miles down the road to work every day.

Re:I've done Oracle DBA

[Anonymous Coward]

I would think Oracle would be smart to have a light version and keep a migration path to the big stuff ergo Netscape-fasttrack. I know the company I work for was all IBM and then there was this Ultra1 one day. Now there seem to be 6500's all over our control room.

But maybe there are just too many IT managers that are twits so what is the point.

Re:I've done Oracle DBA

[_typo]

This was exactly my point. And it's why I'm asking if PostgreSQL can take over from them. And it's why I mentioned replication since it's a much requested feature. Are there any other major ones missing?

not open source.....

[alowiches]

Anyone advocating that Walkmart should switch to open source shouldn't come back here next week complaining about the bad job market for programmers. If you've got a skill, don't just give it away for free, demand a paycheck.

Re:not open source.....

[Kalabajoui]

There are thousands of examples of software written by altruistic programmers who code for the joy of it and give their work away. It's a given that they make little or no money for their efforts directly. Indirectly, they gain experience; build their resumes, and their standing in the programming community with their work, which speaks for its self. The opportunity to be paid for their code materializes when a business needs someone to implement, maintain, and or customize it for their particular use. (I'll bet the number of programmers who'll volunteer their time to a for-profit business, for any reason, is vanishingly small.) Not only does open-source software increase productivity and create jobs, it also encourages competition and standardization. Best of all for programmers, it gives them greater control and autonomy over the technical and practical direction of their work. The open-source philosophy is also capitalism at its best because it fulfills the promises of trickle-down economics and the old saying, "A rising tide lifts all boats." You shouldn't worry about the employability of programmers on account of open-source software. To the contrary, a background in the open-source community is one of the few things that will set you apart from the hordes of semi-skilled IT opportunists and H1B-Visa holders. Which is more desirable to you, being an innovator who expands the IT market and creates jobs for skilled and semi-skilled workers alike, or competing for work with the aforementioned competition?

Re:not open source.....

[alowiches]

You should seriously think about what you've just said. On a small scale, yeah I guess it makes since. But when entire OS's, productivity suites, and the like are given away for free, you're restricting the need for development by a company when they can just hack the alternative a lil bit for free.

Re:not open source.....

[Kalabajoui]

"...you're restricting the need for development by a company when they can just hack the alternative a lil bit for free."

Giving credit where credit is due, I'll agree with you in that scenarios like the one you outline above would have the effect of displacing some programmers temporarily. You also help me make my case. Which is:

By saving money and not having to reinvent the wheel, a company can use the money saved for other programming projects, capital investment, or a competitive edge in pricing. New projects will lead them to retain their current programming employees; capital investments in other parts of their business will lead to growth and a need to expand their staff; price competition increases market share, benefits the consumer, and increases the overall efficiency and growth of the economy.

Face it, in a free and capitalistic society people are going to do what they please with their time and labor whether you approve of it or not. It's all about supply and demand; which can apply to coding in exchange for money, or coding in exchange for the satisfaction it brings. You can choose to either adapt to this reality or be a victim of it. Adam Smith's invisible hand massages those who understand it, and slaps those who don't.

Re:not open source.....

[alowiches]

Right, so what I've been implying this entire time is that only an idiot would give away something for free in a capitalist society when he could instead make a living off of it. Beginning to see my original point yet?

Re:not open source.....

[Kalabajoui]

Well, women can get paid for sex too. Does it follow that they should all prostitute themselves rather than having sex for fun or as an expression of love? I understand your point, I just don't agree with the underlying premise that money is the most important reason for doing everything. One person's work is another person's hobby. You can bitch about it, work around it, or join the crowd; but you can't stop it from happening.

We obviously have fundamental differences in our views on what's a reasonable media of exchange for time and labor. We've both said our respective pieces on the subject and niether of us agree with the other's views. You're welcome to a rebuttal of my last statement, but I have nothing further to say on the matter. I enjoyed our chat even though I didn't recieve a dime for it;-)

Someone are need an editor!

[ackthpt]

"energy bashing bashing the 800 pound gorilla,..."

"allign the support of"

"efficiency should embeace the benefits of Open Source."

How about, instead of cramming all these lameness hacks into slashdot, demonstrate the usefulness of Open Source by tying a spell/grammar checker into the perl slashcode, at least for submissions.

Then again, the submitter may be an alias for CmdrTaco...

Walmart.. or Big brother?

[jsldub]

Walmart is the last company you would want to help out.
1. Security cameras every 10 sq/meters in the stores
2. Security called on anyone entering the store under the age of 18 (yes, its happened to me many occasion)
3. Full censorship of music sold to reflect their idea of "family values"
4. Ive heard of some walmarts not selling birth control in any form.. (I guess they want to decide who lives and dies)

Give them some control, and they will take it all.

Re:Walmart.. or Big brother?

[dj28]

What? It's their property; They can put as many security cameras as they want on their property just like you can do to your home. They can also CHOSE which music they want to sell. You don't have to shop there. You act like they are forcing you to shop there. Get real. I don't know what moron modded that up.

Re:Walmart.. or Big brother?

[JordanH]

• 4. Ive heard of some walmarts not selling birth control in any form.. (I guess they want to decide who lives and dies)

Huh? Walmart wants to decide who lives and dies because they don't sell birth control?

I guess we can really tell who represents Big Brother by who uses new speak.

Re:Walmart.. or Big brother?

[Technician]

4. Ive heard of some walmarts not selling birth control in any form.. (I guess they want to decide who lives and dies)
They also don't sell backhoes.. The gas station does not sell bicycles. So what. If you want birth control, go to a drug store. The inventory choice might not be driven by any factor other than keeping a low profile so even church people will shop there. It might not be a political statement. Their choice of inventory is left up to them and should not be driven by public opinion polls. It is a business. Maybe they want to be seen as the clean cut family shop on the block where you don't have to explain products to your 3 year old. They also don't sell adult magazines and videos. It's their choice. They do not claim to have every product made.

Re:Walmart.. or Big brother?

[BreakWindows]

4. Ive heard of some walmarts not selling birth control in any form.. (I guess they want to decide who lives and dies)

No, they just want to make sure there's an ample supply of children running around to stock their sweatshops. If they start selling birth control, the producers of their clothing line would really be understaffed.

Re:Walmart.. or Big brother?

[Mr. Slippery]

You don't have to shop there. You act like they are forcing you to shop there.

Nonsense. jsldub pointed out corporate behavior that he/she takes into account when deciding whether or not to shop there, and suggested that we might find such behavior offensive and make the same choice.

Re:Walmart.. or Big brother?

[Anonymous Coward]

You might recognize the importance of security cameras if you add up the cost of shoplifting. It adds up quickly during the day at a stagering rate. Security does cost money and they would cut it if they could.

Birth control? Blame it on activists who never seem to have problems with 10 kids in a family. Seems like that controversy will never die.

Censorship of music? Well, most of it is crap anyway. Why do you think mp3's are so popular? Have to draw the line for quality somewhere and axe the duds...

Re:Walmart.. or Big brother?

[Cutriss]

Given Walmart's practices of invading cities and eliminating all the mom-and-pop stores, I think I can safely say that they are forcing you to shop there<\QUOTE>.

Re:Walmart.. or Big brother?

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess we can really tell who represents Big Brother by who uses new speak.

Is it newspeak, or is it gnuspeak?

Re:Walmart.. or Big brother?

[miracle69]

And how do they eliminate the mom and pop stores?

When you stop shopping at them

And you're still not forced to shop there, as there is a big competitor called the "Internet" out there.

Re:Walmart.. or Big brother?

[Cutriss]

I can't point you to any statistics or studies of the fact, but I think you'll agree with me when I cite the fact that while approximately one in two households has Internet connectivity, the lacking half is likely to have lower income. It's that whole "Digital Divide" thing that Bush has been talking about.

Furthermore, not to slight Walmart shoppers, but the majority of Walmart shoppers come from the lower income brackets. Putting two and two together, the majority of Walmart shoppers don't have Internet access.So your Internet comment is way off base. Besides...I think plenty of people proved that you can't run a business by selling groceries and petfood online.

DotCom Graveyard 2000
DotCom Graveyard 2001

And how do they eliminate the mom and pop stores?

When you stop shopping at them

And why do people stop shopping at them? Because of the above reasons. When the majority of Walmart's shoppers are in lower income brackets, they have a tendency of placing more value in the almighty buck than they do of community relationships and small business. You can try all you want to say that it's my fault that Walmart wins, but the fact of the matter is that Walmart is bigger than me and I have no hope of winning when they undercut all the other stores in town. So go ahead...shop at your mom and pop store. Don't come to me and complain when they close because nobody else did, and you couldn't convince them to do otherwise.

In the end, the rich really do rule the world, because they can make the poor their unwitting slaves. Think about it.

Re:Walmart.. or Big brother?

[xtremex]

Understaffed?? Do you have any clue how many third-worlders are in the world who produce babies at lightning speed? We import 1 MILLION third-world immigrans a year (it used to be 200,000 a year in the 70's). And with them having an avg of 6.8 kids, there is PLENTY of labor to extort! Never say there is a lack of people. If this country continues to allow as many immigrants a year as we do, there won't be enough ROOM for Wal-mart! They'll have to convert Wal-mart's into Family housing!

Re:Walmart.. or Big brother?

[Captn Pepe]

They also don't sell backhoes.. The gas station does not sell bicycles. So what. If you want birth control, go to a drug store. The inventory choice might not be driven by any factor other than keeping a low profile so even church people will shop there. It might not be a political statement.

However, it is political. WalMart is overwhelmingly run by southern conservative christian white men, to the extent that they have been investigated repeatedly for racism in hiring and promotions (numerous lawsuits pending). WalMart is the nearest drugstore for something like 30-40% of Americans, and the only accessible drugstore for a sizeable fraction of that, because all the others have been driven out of business.

WalMart has been fined several times because executives made a policy of looking the other way in the face of sexual harrassment complaints. Also, of the roughly 34% of WalMart employees who have health insurance (most employees are classified as part-time, i.e. less than 39 hours a week, and thus would have to pay WalMart to be included in the health plan; very few WalMart workers can afford this, as a majority of them already qualify for food stampes and other public assistance), none are offered coverage for contraceptives in any form. WalMart has also been fined for lying to judges and destroying evidence related to victims of assaults that occur on its premises, because its executives don't want to get involved. The vast majority of such victims are women.

Taken together, one should start to suspect a pattern larger than not feeling like selling certain drugs. See this page for a useful selection of links on this and other issues.

Re:Walmart.. or Big brother?

[wierdo]

And why do people stop shopping at them? Because of the above reasons.

Perhaps, if you really feel that way, you should rent a bit of land down the street from Wal-Mart (or stand on the public ROW next to the street), and display a large sign, informing people why it is detrimental to them, in the long run, to shop at Wal-Mart. Instead, people like you just bitch, whine and moan, and after that's not enough to do anything, you try to bully the local government into disallowing Wal-Mart's attempts to compete. I don't shop at Wal-Mart. There are six Wal-Marts within ten miles of here, yet other grocery stores, hardware stores, and other Mom & Pop businesses still exist. And this is in Wal-Mart's back yard, where lots of people really are poor. Don't give me that crap.

When you see Wal-Mart using predatory pricing tactics, yell loudly it. Most of the time, you don't see them pulling that crap, because on the national level, they don't have to resort to such things to compete. Hell, I've been to many Wal-Marts where other stores in town are selling goods for much cheaper than they are. Are those other stores pricing their products in a predatory manner? Perhaps the government should just regulate prices on everything, then it will all be about efficency.

-Nathan

Re:Walmart.. or Big brother?

[JordanH]

• In the end, the rich really do rule the world, because they can make the poor their unwitting slaves. Think about it.

I don't know about "the world", but in the United States, at least, where the top 10% of the income earners pay nearly 70% of all income taxes, you get a different perspective on who makes who "their unwitting slaves".

Re:Walmart.. or Big brother?

[DeputySpade]

well said.

you sucks, read this.

[analemma]

I'm sorry, but you'll never convince me slackware is more secure than a hand tuned OpenBSD firewall. I'm also convinced I can blow open your slackware hours before you get near my OpenBSD.

I simply speak from experience.

hint: try making your own packet headers.

quandry

[Alien54]

here we have again a situation where the consequences of a programmer philosophy may at some point clash really hard will political philosophy. A sort of cognitive dissonance, at least for some folks.

what happens when the technology you are promoting is adopted by people you might not like? You know, the whole anti-globalist thing?

Lots of differnt answers to that question.

Get real.

[mindstrm]

Open source hippies. Sheesh.

"Embrace open source?". The hell the should.. just as they should not 'Embrace' any other buzzword or technology. Why? Because to PROPERLY be flexible, you have to look at ALL Your options.

That's the problem with many open source zealots these days. So many of them can't see beyond the purchace price of the software, or the fact that they can hack away at the code. They blab about security.
Open source security? Is open-source a better model for security? In a way.. as anyone who cares to can go have a look at it.. but does that make anything open-source better? No, absolutely not. It's like arguing risc-vs-cisc... someone saying their processor is 'better' because it is risc. In other words, they mix up a technology or methodology being better with an actual implementation being better.

Cheaper? Certainly in some cases. But in others, the cost of windows is NEGLIGIBLE compared to the cost of other tools in use... tools that don't HAVE an open-source equivalent. Tools that have some serious technical support.

I'll advocate free tools anytime... if they make sense. But in many cases, the proprietary stuff IS better, that's reality.

Re:Get real.

[Anonymous Coward]

And what tools are these?
I've yet to encounter a tool I need that has a superior proprietary version.

Re:Get real.

[Malcontent]

"I'll advocate free tools anytime... if they make sense. But in many cases, the proprietary stuff IS better, that's reality. "

What if you could get 50% of the functionality for free? What if you get 70% or 80% or 90%.

For example sure ms office is better then star office. But str office is 70% as good and is free. MS sold SQL server for years with the mantra "sure it's not as good as oracle but it's a hell of a lot cheaper". The same argument here. Corporations will always choose a cheaper product if it's "good enough" or "almost as good".

Linux is "good enough" or "almost as good" some even say it's "better" but it's always free.

Re:Get real.

[Steveftoth]

The point is that if it doesn't do what you need, then it is useless.

If you are getting 50% functionality, but the 50% includes what you need then it may be a good idea to use the free software.
Linux is only worthwhile to use if it does what you want. And that is not true all the time.

Re:Get real.

[Anonymous Coward]

All of this is nice. But will it make them more money?

That is the _*ONLY*_ thing they want. If MS software will make their system more efficient they will USE it. If some system cobbled together in some dudes garage smokes MS's system they will use that instead. They do not care what the icons on the screen say or what the os under the hood is. They only want to make the system more efficent.

Almost 80% of getting a product on shelf is moving the damn thing from manufacture to store. A 1% savings in that can be HUGE. Now think if it was 10%... If I make sure I track what sells and what doesnt and if it doesnt it will NOT be on my shelf anymore. If using MSSQL/Oracle or whatever will save me MILLIONS what the HELL do i care that the visual studio that i bought the dev cost 500? FIXED costs in busness do not matter much if they are low. If you can lower them fine if not... Now marginal costs you can control. Marginal costs do not include cost of software. Thats a one off cost. Now training, setup, maintaing, putting people in charge of that stuff. Now THAT costs money. Open source give you nothing but control of the source code. That only affects my fixed cost. But WHOOPS now I need to retrain, fire and hire different people. If software from whatever company will give return on investment. Anything after is frosting....

If they choose a propritary system what makes you think they cant bully it out of the company to get EXACTLY what they want...

Re:Get real.

[cygnusx]

Sheesh. Ever heard of Photoshop? And no, the GIMP is *not* a adequate substitute for print graphics. What about AutoCAD? STAAD? Think all of that is free?

People who say 'gcc and emacs is all i need' bore the hell out of me.

A few interesting bits on that page..

[mindstrm]

Except really, it's just a front for the UFCW to try to unionize wal-mart. Why.. because they have some great interest in the well-being of all the walmartians (hey.. cool word) out there? No.

Because adding the walmart staff to the UFCW roster will significantly boost the pay & profits of the union executives.

UFCW... just say no.

Re:A few interesting bits on that page..

[Anonymous Coward]

That is how capitalism works. If the bloodsucker in the tow truck is only towing my car out of the ditch for money than I am better off because I am not naturally lovable.

Decent acting corporation

[ackthpt]

But then again, who is to say that IBM won't turn into a monopoly just because they play nice now?

Interesting point. IBM has come down a long way, from back in the 80's when their suits came in, showed us a system 390 and did Q&A all with a very 'fsck you if you don't buy our system, because you're so very fscking stupid for not recognising it's the only solution' attitude. It put a lot of people off, just that attitude. During the early 90's as they did some serious housecleaning, they did it so fast and so far that I was getting call forwarding to different sales people each week, until the regional sales manager (some 'region' of Michigan, that is) was the one who put together the invoice for the RS/6000 we were buying (despite my protests that we should have gone with an HP9000, instead.)

IBM is no longer an 800 lb gorilla, they've been beaten and had their lunchmoney taken away from them by Dell, Compaq, Cisco, etc. They're still a pretty good size monkey, but very much more intouch with reality. Research and licensing is now a big part of their plan.

I pay $.77 for gas... thanks Walmart!

[fred911]

... or should I?

Sure I *love* spending the .91 a gallon I pay for premium fuel, all sparked by a Walmart gas war. They are selling at cost. They have been doing this for the past week. 2 mom and pop stations are now doing the same. I'm sure "the mart" can hang on much longer then mom and pop can.

I wonder what I'll be paying for gas when mom and pop aren't market participants (how long do you think that will be)?

todays prices... .77 reg, .84 mid grade and .91 for premium.

Embrace the mart? not I

Re:I pay $.77 for gas... thanks Walmart!

[nolife]

I have never seen a Wal-mart that sells gas but here in Northern VA, Costco and other warehouse clubs do. They scope the local market (very local, like a few sq miles) and then price their gas a few cents less then anyone. A few months ago, the lawmakers in VA and MD were questioning this and were attempting to pass laws to set what they could charge for gas. I do not know the results but yesterday their gas was still cheaper then anyone else.

I wonder what I'll be paying for gas when mom and pop aren't market participants (how long do you think that will be)?

Are there any Ma&Pa gas stations left? I dont consider Exxon-Mobile, Shell, Texaco, Sheetz and the others to be small companies. I also do not consider Costco's or Wal-Marts pricing scheme to be any different then the mega oil companies practices. The difference being the retailers have an advantage of getting you to the store for other things. I don't know of many people that browse around a gas station looking for good deals.

Re:I pay $.77 for gas... thanks Walmart!

[VAXman]

Sure I *love* spending the .91 a gallon I pay for premium fuel, all sparked by a Walmart gas war. They are selling at cost. They have been doing this for the past week. 2 mom and pop stations are now doing the same. I'm sure "the mart" can hang on much longer then mom and pop can.

THE HORROR! I'm sure all those mom and pops like Shell, ExxonMobil, and Chevron are shivering in their shoes. Maybe they'll actually be forced to come up with ways to be more efficient, so they can lower the cost, too, and reduce their own prices.

Re:I pay $.77 for gas... thanks Walmart!

[user32.ExitWindowsEx]

Where do you live?
Can I send you several 50-gallon drums? Please?

Re:I pay $.77 for gas... thanks Walmart!

[xtremex]

$.99??? Where is this? I pay $1.65 for Premium gas! (I DO live in NY...)

Re:I pay $.77 for gas... thanks Walmart!

[Seanasy]

Who marked this insightful?

Do really think they're trying to put Exxon, Shell, etc. out of business? Who do you think WalMart gets their gas from? Many, if not most, gas stations are privately owned. Thery're more like franchises. There's someone in your community that owns that station. They just buy all their gas from one supplier and advertise it that way.

This isn't WalMart against Shell. It's WalMart against Your Local Mechanic. Sellingat or below cost isn't efficient, it's abusive.

Re:I pay $.77 for gas... thanks Walmart!

[Anonymous DWord]

Aww, you poor bastards. Gas up here is 84c - per LITRE, not gallon. Multiply by 4, suckas.

Re:I pay $.77 for gas... thanks Walmart!

[VAXman]

This isn't WalMart against Shell. It's WalMart against Your Local Mechanic. Sellingat or below cost isn't efficient, it's abusive.

That's for the consumers to decide. If consumers want to pay a premium to support a local business, they are free to. It is likely that most will simply go for the cheaper gas, and the less efficient supplier will go out of business.

What's the problem? Should decisions about who sells what to whom for how much be made by the consumers who are actually paying for the goods, or by some elites who have some random agenda?

Re:I pay $.77 for gas... thanks Walmart!

[wierdo]

This isn't WalMart against Shell. It's WalMart against Your Local Mechanic. Sellingat or below cost isn't efficient, it's abusive

So if I can purchase my gas for cheaper than you can purchase yours, such that I can make a profit selling it at your cost, I should be punished? Around here, that's what Wal-Mart does. Besides, price wars on gas are commonplace, even between the Mom & Pop stores. I've often spoken to the owners of small stations who are choosing to sell their gas below cost for a time to win customers, many of whom will stay with them even when prices go up. Perhaps Ma and Pa should shop around for their gas, perhaps purchasing from Murphy USA, instead of propping up a local supplier that charges far too much for their gasoline, causing the local stores to not be competitive.

I agree that in many cases, Wal-Mart is abusive, but this is simply not one of them. Despite Wal-Mart's low price, I choose not to purchase my gas from them. Nor do I purchase my gas from the local grocery store congomerate that has recently chosen to get into the gasoline market. Also note that to get the best price at Wal-mart, one must go into the store and purchase a Wal-Mart gift card. Otherwise you pay 2c more per gallon. What is abusive is the consumers who try to exclude Wal-Mart from the market with city ordinances, and then when they fail shop there anyway. You can't blame Mom & Pop's trouble solely on them, since most of the time they don't sell at or below cost.

BTW, a reality check, around here, all the gas stations get their fuel from one of two suppliers, no matter how they brand the fuel.

-Nathan

Re:I pay $.77 for gas... thanks Walmart!

[fred911]

This gas "battle" is in Central PA. Where there still *are* ma&pa stations. There also are a few larger chains that are participating in the battle.

Hey, I have absolutly no problem with the market determining pricing, but this IS NOT the case. The are selling at cost for 1 reason, to eliminate the sellers with shallow pockets. Then they'll jack the price up and 0wn the whole local market.

They did this with motor oil when they came to town. Branded oil at "themart" was all .99. It's now nowhere close to that pricing (for a number of other reasons)nor are there as many local retailers carying oil.

fyi.. this town was dead long before "themart" there's just not too much more demand for higher priced steel wheels or rings:-)

Re:I pay $.77 for gas... thanks Walmart!

[LatJoor]

the less efficient supplier will go out of business

Cutthroat pricing has absolutely nothing to do with efficiency. Walmart is selling at cost, not charging less because they've reduced their costs through efficiency. Then, when the neighboring stations go out of business they can jack up the price higher than before and gouge consumers, who will have nowhere left to turn. It's a technique that Standard Oil perfected before they were split up for being filthy stinking criminals, just like Walmart.

Re:I pay $.77 for gas... thanks Walmart!

[Anonymous Coward]

Aww, you poor bastards. Gas up here is 84c - per LITRE, not gallon. Multiply by 4, suckas.

Heh. I remember driving through part of Canada once, and stopping for gas:

"Holy shit, gas is really cheap here!"

[Remembers that Canada uses the metric system]

"Holly shit, gas is really expensive here!"

[Remembers currency exchange rate]

"Well, I guess it's not that bad."

Re:I pay $.77 for gas... thanks Walmart!

[Anonymous Coward]

many, if not most, gas stations, are actually owned by the gas company. Not too many "independent" or even franchise gas stations exist, and they often get screwed by having to pay more for gas.

Not to whine... but

[mindstrm]

that link also doesn't show much for an operation the size of wal-mart. I've seen small, independed supermakets with more claims than that.

Plus. their 'news' is stuff like "Wal-mart CEO sells millions of his stock". Oh wow....
Someone who was granted stock options actually used them to make money? SO WHAT. THATS WHY HE GOT THEM.

Problems with the article.

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Walmart is an early adopter. The author implies it is not.
2) Linux does have a "market giant" behind it: IBM. IBM is number one in system services/integration.

Basicly what Walmart did is computerize inventory
and actually used the data. Walmart was full of
things you wanted to buy. Kmart was full of stuff
you didn't want to buy. Kmart left the unsellable
stuff on the shelves and failed to re-order what it did sell. Hell, Walmart could run their business on home made no-OS software. What they do is not all that difficult; Target easily duplicated it. The problem is a management and commitment problem: Walmart computerized, studied the data and followed through.

Sears, Kmart, Woolworth wallowed in pretending to use technology. They had systems, but dumped the data on the floor. There's a big difference in collecting the data and using it. Most middle managers couldn't tell the difference between an arithmetic mean and fitted curve. Their job was to deny benefits and raises to minimum wage slaves. Walmart treats their workers like shit too, but somebody there is studying the workflow and constantly tweaking it. Sears employees let customers pile up at the registers as they refused to accept Visa and Mastercard (Sears card only).

Walmart's crushing of the dinosaurs is not some great innovation. It was common sense and pretty easy to do. Crushing Microsoft is a bit more difficult to do than bankrupting Kmart.

This is a standard bussiness practice

[Billly Gates]

Retailers like Walmart and Staples do not like to pay out full time benefits like health care and vacation time that is required by employment laws for more then 40 hours a week. Where I work at Staples we get about 50 to sometimes 60 hours a week worth of work and only recieve part time benefits. Eventually HR cut our hours to under 40 a week to prevent lawsuits from the government. So what does our store manager do?

Cuts our pay and tells us to do the same amount of work in under 40 hours or else he'll fire us! As it is we do not eat lunch or break and work off the clock to finish it for %15-%20 less money because of our hours being cut. Yet he still subtracts our lunch breaks even though we don't take them. Hey, retail sucks and if I stayed in college I wouldn't have this problem so I have no one to blame but myself.

But in a time where stock prices have plummeted, the low end of the economic scale has to increase efficiancy as well. Even if we don't get paid for it. Staples lost alot of money and this is why they make recievers/merchandisers work off the clock. All in the effort to boost our stocks.

Re:This is a standard bussiness practice

[SpacePunk]

"Yet he still subtracts our lunch breaks even though we don't take them"

Report his ass to the state/federal employment commission.

Re:This is a standard bussiness practice

[Anonymous Coward]

Report his ass to the state/federal employment commission.

Better yet, threaten to report his ass and make him give you kickbacks.

Re:This is a standard bussiness practice

[xtremex]

One thing I have NEVER done is let employers take advantage (which is why I had over 100 jobs when I was younger) If they took advantage, I told them to fsck themselves. What did I care? It was a minimum wage job. Plenty of those around. Sure, I may have had a bad track record when I was younger, but I learned alot. It has made me an excellent manager. People work better when they are respected.

Re:This is a standard bussiness practice

[DeputySpade]

But in a time where stock prices have plummeted, the low end of the economic scale has to increase efficiancy as well.

What do stock prices have to do with bending over and taking it from some store manager? ((the stock market) != (the economy)). If you are working hours without being paid for them it's because you are

A) an idiot or

B) a masochist.

If you didn't _WANT_ to be treated this way by your employer you would document the situation and either take it over his head to someone who CARES if the store gets sued, or take it to the local newspapers/newsletters/billposters while you looked for other work. After all, being out of work isn't that much worse than working without getting paid.

Doesn't everyone?

[MarkusQ]

Walmart forces people to work off the clock. It has been on the news and I have had employees confirm this to me. They set a 'goal' and if they don't reach it they are expected to punch out and return to thier job off the clock. Some efficiancy!

Having worked at (note: "at" /= "for") Intel, Microsoft, and two dot coms, I've started thinking of this as normal. In fact, if the trend of the last few decades continues, I expect to wind up at a company that doesn't specify any hours, but just has a little real-time LCD display outside every cube, labled "Your score/GP/Lives remaining."

-- MarkusQ

Re:Doesn't everyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Having worked at (note: "at" /= "for") Intel, Microsoft, and two dot coms, I've started thinking of this as normal.

If you're an exempt employee (which you probably are), you get paid a salary, not by the hour. Wal-Mart workers are non-exempt, and are entitled to overtime pay.

Re:Doesn't everyone?

[MarkusQ]

If you're an exempt employee (which you probably are), you get paid a salary, not by the hour. Wal-Mart workers are non-exempt, and are entitled to overtime pay.

Was, not are.

And joking, not serious.

And at one of the startups, entitled to, not paid.

But other than that I agree with you.

-- Markus

Read this before you think about it more

[z7209]

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0215-06.htm

In any case, the wal-mart culture of middle-america is definitely not something I'm interested in aligning with. Makes microsoft look warm and cuddly.

Re:Read this before you think about it more

[Anonymous Coward]

At least Walmart do not have BSA raiding small business forcing them to buy Walmart junk...
Walmart may spy on you while you are shopping in case you are shoplifting. They don't follow you around by putting bugs in your toilet paper etc. Walmart might put small stores in small cities out of business, but they also boost local employments. They beat up on vendor to bring cheap prices, in directly causing a selection process. They do not put a hold on buying certain essential things from them and them alone.

Censor

[sehryan]

So we should embrace the policy of the way Wal-Mart cencors music that it finds offensive? I didn't realize censorship was part of the Open Source movement.

Re:Censor

[Anonymous Coward]

censorship -- where?!

How is not carrying an item censorship?

The government prohibiting a certain magazine, or game, or compact disc or anything else based on the ideas or language it contains -- now that would be censorship. But stores are under no obligation to arbitrarily stock items their management doesn't want to stock. Walmarts don't sell a lot of things which they either think would hurt more than help their bottom line (even if they sold *some*) or -- if you can believe this is a different category, perhaps not an easy thing to believe -- which Walmart honchos think are immoral / objectionable in some way. As private citizens running a publically held corporation, they're free to make those choices: no coercion impells you to frequent or patronize Walmart.

That's not to say they have the same judgements as everyone else, of course. A lot of people believe that Walmart shouldn't sell guns, for instance. (And now they sell only longarms, not handguns, which I think were offered in some locations.) Probably it's not surprising that Walmart doesn't carry blatant sex toys, High Times, or a book called "Slavery In the Sticks: How Walmart Unfairly Holds Employees Down."

Should Jewish or Muslim grocery stores be required to distribute recipes for pork dishes, to combat "censorship"? I hope not. People are and must be free to exercise their own moral beliefs in their everyday (commercial) lives, if they are to mean anything at all.

- Anon.

Re:Censor

[Anonymous Coward]

> So we should embrace the policy of the way Wal-Mart cencors music that it finds offensive? I didn't realize censorship was part of the Open Source movement.

I didn't realize Wal-Mart was actively changing the CDs etc it buys prior to reselling them. Examples, please?

Otherwise, they have every right not to sell stuff they don't like. Now, take Blockbuster - they rent/sell altered versions of some films to meet their standards. That's censorship - either sell the original, or don't sell it at all, but don't change it.

Re:Censor

[Captn Pepe]

In general, not carrying an item is not censorship. However, the case is a bit fuzzier when your record label's single largest distributor calls up and tells your producer that either you change the lyrics in your album or they drop the thing altogether.

Same goes for mass-market book and magazine publishing, video games, you name it.

An old article from the Boston Globe

Rock Out Censorship calls for a boycott of WalMart

Here's a page of helpful links about WalMart and its practices in a number of areas.

Re:Censor

[Anonymous DWord]

Nirvana's In Utero, for example. Waif Me?

Re:Censor

[Xofer D]

Hey, that's nothing. Wal-Mart censors photos.

I'm not talking about photos that they sell - I'm talking about their photo developing shop. My friend once took a roll of film down to be developed which featured some shots of his girlfriend at the beach wearing a bikini swimsuit; she's well-endowed, and the suit was not, so there was quite a bit of skin showing according to my friend.

When he went to pick them up, some of the photos were missing. He asked about them and was told that it was their policy not to print pornography! He asked for the negatives, and they told him that they had been destroyed.

This was not explained to him by the attendant, nor was it displayed on signs in the store. Even so, he hadn't thought of them as pornographic. Meanwhile, he handed the roll over and shots (not replacable, in general) were destroyed. They even tried to charge him full price for what was left.

Re:Censor

[Kirkoff]

Actually, personal censorship is definatly part of the Open Source Movement. They choose not to sell items X, Y, and Z. That's a lot like my having a system and telling my users that I don't want them putting pr0n on it. I'm censoring them while they're in use of my computer. If they want pr0n, they can feel free to go get all they want on their own computer. Contrary to some people's beleif, the consept of personal freedom includes one choosing to abstain oneself or one's company from using/selling things they don't like.

Re:Censor

[Anonymous Coward]

This is called freedom asshole.
I will carry your item only if it fits my general strategy.
I give you chance , make it fit or else ...

What's so fuzzy about that ?
Do you want to take away Walmart's right to govern itself ?

Re:Censor

[Captn Pepe]

I will carry your item only if it fits my general strategy.
I give you chance , make it fit or else ...
Do you want to take away Walmart's right to govern itself ?

No, I'm not especially interested in denying anyone their right of self-determination. Certainly not over something like the availability of some CD or other. However, I reserve the right to call Wal-Mart on its practices, withhold my economic and/or political support from it, and encourage others to do the same.

On the other hand, when the company's executives decide that they will not carry certain drugs (emergency contraceptives in particular) that are maximally effective only if taken in a 12-hour window, then some regulation might be in order, at least in those markets in which Wal-Mart is the monpoly pharmacy. Or are you opposed to all regulation?

Re:Censor

[oasisbob]

While that may be what happened to your friend, that's *NOT* the normal policy. Wal-Mart Photo Labs are instructed (VERY clearly instructed) to not print photos that would be considered indecent. Granted, this is a very broad definition, and is open to individual judgement. (My local Wal-Mart defines this as frontal nudity.)

So what should happen if your pictures are deemed indecent? The individual prints are destroyed -- but the negatives are to be returned untouched. (One of the clerks in our local Wal-Mart photo lab showed me this policy -- the line about not touching negatives is even printed in bold.)

Maybe this has to do more with training than Wal-Mart censorship...

Re:Censor

[Anonymous Coward]

Censhorship shouldn't be considered at the retail shelf.

Is Walmart forcing OTHER retailers to not sell a certain product, or jsut simply choosing itself to not sell it?

Is Walmart banning those who do (through data mining of check and credit card purchases) buy the Forbidden Fruits somewhere else from ever shopping at Walmart again?

Is it not Walmart's right to choose what it sells and doesn't sell?

IBM's already there

[redfenix]

I'm not sure about what the servers are, but all of the cash registers up front are all IBM. So, this may not be too much of a stretch...

mndstrm is a mickeysoft troll

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Your previous posts prove your Microsoft
troll
2) UFCW is evil? Why don't you Republicans
every complain about cabalism among the rich?
How 'bout price fixing by the ABA, AMA, the NFL,
MLB, NBA, NAM, ITAA, RNC, DNC, etc? Some
poos schmuck making sub-minimum wage joins
a union and you freak out. Some rich guy
rigs the market and you ignore it.

This is why Bush is gone in two years. Your
beloved Republican Congress will be gone in 11 months.

(vote = 48/100) != landslide;

Re:mndstrm is a mickeysoft troll

[mindstrm]

Cool! I've been waiting for that for years.

What's a Republican? Bush?
I don't have a Republican congress.

Yes, but..

[Anonymous Coward]

Wal-Mart is 'evil', or so some would have you believe. They come into towns, provide jobs, yet cost them at the same time as stores like K-Mart suffer a terrible blow.

They've been known to censor music, they've been known to do any number of horrible things, despite all the good they do.

We obviously can't support them because they're 'evil'. After all, Open Source/FSF/GNU are the paragons of righteousness.

Especially the way we talk about 'eliminating' Microsoft.. 'Ruling' the server/desktop/embedded/etc. markets. We call out others for foul play, yet we do it with abandon.

I'm not saying Open Source/Linux/etc. is a bad thing. It certainly isn't. I'm just noting that before we scream curses at others, we should realize there's no black and white, only grey - and we're a part of that grey.

Mandrake Distro

[redfenix]

I'm not sure if this rule applies to software, as this area is not directly controlled by Wal-Mart itself, it is run by a company called "Anderson" (who also handles all the magazines, books, music, and movies).

Back in the day (college) I worked in Wal-Mart electronics, and there were several software titles who never sold once. Besides, they can all be shipped back to Anderson if they want to anyway.

Given Walmart's current Point of Sale OS...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see them converting any time soon. As a former employee of a very large company which provided Walmart all of its Point of Sale equipment, I can tell you that Walmart runs all of its Point of Sale devices on an OS called 4690, which has a shell and set of APIs that look a whole hell of a lot like DOS, while having some nicer things in the kernel like multithreading. This OS has been specifically tweaked and enhanced over the years particularly for these guys, and I can tell you that they aren't going to abandon this OS that has been essentially created for them and for a particular purpose; it is absolutely rock-solid for what it does, granted that that is slim. But I am agreed that Linux would be a great alternative for an emerging Walmart. Many large companies want to run cash registers on wimpy (486 or worse) boxes, which Windows doesn't do so well.

Re:Given Walmart's current Point of Sale OS...

[Animats]

The IBM 4690 Retail Operating System now supports Java and TCP/IP. So it's now almost at the "thin Internet client" level.

Re:Given Walmart's current Point of Sale OS...

[Anonymous Coward]

4690 is based on OS/2. I don't know that I'd agree that it's been tweaked particularly for Walmart since a number of large retailers use it.

Re:Given Walmart's current Point of Sale OS...

[argoff]

Contrary to popular belief, the IBM 4690 is a hardware cash register, that is basically an x86 in a fnacy case with alot propriatary interfaces to cash drawers, led displays, etc...

It can run any opperating system that an x86 does, but typically only runs dos, os2, and windows opperating systems. I imagine that it could and would run Linux but would be willing to bet that the drivers are not there for the periphials.

Re:Given Walmart's current Point of Sale OS...

[Anonymous Coward]

The hardware is 4694, the OS that most 4694s run is 4690. IBM offers JavaPOS drivers for Red Hat Linux on 4694s including many of the special devices. They also offer C libraries of drivers for those that don't want to use JavaPOS, but they steer you towards JavaPOS. http://www2.clearlake.ibm.com/store/index.html

Wal-Mart sells "Naked PC"'s

[mikethegeek]

Wal-Mart is selling PCs without OS's

I submitted this as an article to ./ 2 weeks ago. Rejected. This is a major example of how Wal-Mart could hurt MS.

Re:Wal-Mart sells "Naked PC"'s

[weave]

Damn I wish I had mod points. This *is* news. Finally, I can buy a computer without paying the Windows tax and reformatting it off as the first thing I do.

Re:Wal-Mart sells "Naked PC"'s

[SilentChris]

Um, there's no evidence that Walmart is actually saving consumers money on these machines. Quite frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to see them making a profit.

Re:Wal-Mart sells "Naked PC"'s

[yesthatguy]

Quite frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to see them making a profit.

Damn. I hate it when these evil corporations try to make money! Don't they realize that they should just incur huge losses for the benefit of every consumer?

Re:Wal-Mart sells "Naked PC"'s

[Anonymous Coward]

Do the PCs have Winmodems, etc in them so they're tougher to work with non-Windows OSs?

Re:Wal-Mart sells "Naked PC"'s

[nathanm]

Um, there's no evidence that Walmart is actually saving consumers money on these machines. Quite frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to see them making a profit.

First, the whole point of a corporation is to make a profit. Otherwise they'd go out of business.

Second, the exact same model of computer is $99 more with Windows XP Home Edition.

Re:Wal-Mart sells "Naked PC"'s

[Anonymous Coward]

Wish they would off the low-cost one with Linux pre-installed. That would point out a lot.

Re:Wal-Mart and Open Source? Never...

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously do not work at corporate in arkansas. They already are experimenting with Linux at corporate. If tests go well (most likely they will), they will start rolling out Linux into stores in about 12-24 months.

My understanding is that they are always seeking ways of lowering cost and have realized that staying with an M$ based system would not lower it anymore (high price on OS,sysad, virus protection, software cost, && development productivity ). This is a company that is ALWAYS trying to lower the overall cost / transaction. While they have spent BILLIONS of $ on hardware and software, they have already paid for it. By moving to Linux, they are able to re-use the same hardware. The companies who did not provide Linux based apps to Wal-Mart when they asked once (& only once) will simply not be part of the plan. Apparently, they have in extreme measures of security and most folks do not find out until they are rolling out the products into stores.

As to training, I would think that creating a similar interface for the users would allieviate all that. However, the turn-over rate of employees means that wal-mart is always training employees anyways, so that make that argument simple FUD.

Re:Wal-Mart and Open Source? Never...

[Ami Ganguli]

Agreed that nobody is going to rip out perfectly good infrastructure for no reason, but

HP-UX as part of the POS (point-of-sale) network, another UNIX for the SMART (Systematic Merchendising and Applied Retail Technology) system,

Is there any reason that new stores couldn't use Linux/BSD on cheap Intel hardware in place of proprietary Unix? I bet somebody already has those applications running under Linux, if only for development and testing. And it's not like there's much of a learning curve in going from Unix to Linux.

Windows NT/2000 servers to cache all those ads you see playing on "Wal-Mart TV" in electronics (and throughout hanging TV's in some stores)

A Windows caching server? Another ideal candidate for "let's do what's cheapest". No business logic, just caching. That's easy.

I would be really surprised if it takes 5-6 years for this stuff to happen. It might take 5-6 years (or even longer) to replace everything, but I'd bet large amounts of money that there are a few pilot Linux boxes at Walmart already.

People, PEOPLE!

[billcopc]

Microsoft sucks, Walmart sucks, sucks. Microsoft kills (buys out) smaller companies. Walmart squashes (undersells, overadvertises) smaller stores.

In a sense, Walmart is worse because it leaves the little people without jobs, while Microsoft merely changes where those people's checks are drawn from and where the end result goes. They don't put anyone on welfare and their support clerks aren't nearly as underpaid as Walmart's. When's the last time you had any service in a fricking' superstore ? The best I usually get is "I don't know, stop bugging me I'm minimum wage!"

Re:bsd sucks, read this.

[yomegaman]

Of course your Slackware box is secure, as a home PC I wouldn't imagine it would be running any services whatsoever. Securing such a box is like falling off a log if you know how to edit a text file and hit shift-3 a few times.

Walmart, huh?

[filtersweep]

"When it comes to managing high-impact innovation, there is no contest--Sam Walton still matters more than Bill Gates. "

What the article doesn't mention is that many metro and suburban communities VIGOROUS oppose (if not block) the openings of new Walmarts.

There have been huge union issues related to Walmarts the sell groceries.

At a more immediate level, it is downright depressing seeing retirees slaving away minimum wage.

There are a TON of sites about the evils of Walmart:

Walmart Memoirs

Walmart Trash Page

Yahoo stuff

And lest you forget all the censorship that Walmart does regarding music....Censorship at Walmart on Yahoo

I could go on and on about their business practices.

Not to mention that you could hold Jerry Springer auditions at almost any Walmart in the US...

I fundamentally find it ironic that Walmart is used as an example... a very profitable retail chain that is widely hated... that has many questionable business practices... that crushes and destroys the small "mom and pop" retailers in smaller communities.... then again, maybe it is the perfect example?

Re:Walmart, huh?

[jonnythan]

Wal Mart's very *existence* in a community destroys "mom and pop" retailers. It's for a REASON: Wal Mart sells more things at lower prices than the mom and pop retailer. I'd certainly rather that.

And censorship at Wal Mart? Do they have Playboy and Hustler (or even Maxim) on the magazine rack? Does Wal Mart have an "Adult" DVD section?

I think Wal Mart's "censorship" (read: not selling CD's that require warning labels) is perfectly reasonable and consistent. Don't sell any obscene media. You can still go buy your rap cd's full of cursing at Wherehouse or CDNow, just like you can buy your Maxim or softcore porn movies at another local retailer or through the internet.

Wal Mart censoring? Get the fuck over it, it's a family store, and I wouldn't want going to the store with my children to be an uncomfortable experience.

Any sufficiently large business will create a huge amount of opposition, no matter what they do. I buy things cheaply at Wal Mart. I'm very happy with their "censorship" of music, magazines, and video. The stores create tons of jobs, don't treat their employees any worse than most major retailers (or fast food joints). Take your preaching about censorship elsewhere and *pull your head out your ass*. Would you rather do your shopping with your kids at three different corner stores, each of which has obscene music and porn mags on the racks?

Didn't think so.

Re:Walmart, huh?

[nathanm]

And lest you forget all the censorship that Walmart does regarding music....Censorship at Walmart on Yahoo

It's not censorship. Wal-Mart is not part of the government. They can sell or not sell what they please.

Re:Walmart, huh?

[filtersweep]

"It's for a REASON: Wal Mart sells more things at lower prices than the mom and pop retailer. I'd certainly rather that. "

I live in Mpls... a Northwest Airline hub. You think NW offers us competitive prices here? Think again. The have practically taken over the airport. A few months ago I needed to take a personal trip to NYC- and Northwest MATCHED the price of Sun Country (an "almost" airline). A few years ago, Sun Country undersold NW by at least a $100. My first thoughts were that NW is driving Sun Country out of business... and they were, and they practically did. I'm sure we'll see prices jacked up by NW after the last shovelful of dirt is placed on Sun Country...

Now, in the US, companies can not just do whatever they feel like for fun and profit. There have been plenty of price-fixing schemes, anti-trust cases, etc... that provide examples that the lowest price isn't always the most "legal" price. I'm not so naive as to suggest Walmart is going to jack all the prices sky-high like your neighborhood "convenience" store, but I'm also here to tell you that with retail margins as tight as they are, we really don't pay that much of a premium to support a decent local business. I'd rather pay a penny more for a nail at the local hardware store where I can be helped by someone who knows the place inside and out, and where they have a wall with nails from floor to ceiling... and I can buy just two of the damn things if I want- rather than parking a half mile away from a megastore, walk another half mile through the store, and buy a hundred nails that are "almost" what I'm looking for.

WALMART reaps far greater benefits by being in a community than does the community. You think they are doing the community a public service by being present? While they may not be doing anything "illegal" it is also IRONIC that they are all "red-white&blue" about things when they are in fact destroying the local economy... but maybe that truly IS the "American way." What I would REALLY like to see is how Walmart would cope with a unionization attempt... I'm sure we'd all see their true colors... there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest it isn't the most lucrative or pleasant place to work.

No the censorship is NOT a big deal, but it is amusing if you look at what they censor... I don't think I've ever purchased "music" from a discount store... but get out in the sticks and it is either that or mail order/online (with your dial-up provider)... and you might think if it is "good enough" for radio, it should be "good enough" for most retailers.

Re:Walmart, huh?

[base3]

The definition of censorship does not require that a government entity be doing the censoring. Perhaps you're confusing the parent's statement that Wal-Mart censors (true) with the (mistaken) corrolary that the First Amendment guarantee of free speech applies. (Of course, it doesn't, since, as you said, Wal-Mart is not part of the government (directly), and therefore is not subject to the First Amendment.)

Re:Walmart, huh?

[broken77]

No need for anecdotal evidence.

80-20 and Economies of Scale

[MadFarmAnimalz]

I read the article, and to be honest there's nothing really new in there to justify the newsworthiness; there's no revolutionary thinking there.

The whole idea has been stated often enough before, and I think the author was looking for the term 'critical mass'. Open source adoption has to reach critical mass - this means that we don't need to get everyone on the bandwagon, we just need enough to get the rest back on.

This is also sometimes expressed as the 80-20 rule, a personal favorite of mine which I leverage whenever I can. 20% of the causes yield 80% of the results, generically stated.

And while Mr. Schrage makes a good point of WalMart basically being the behemoth that can represent 20% of the causes on its own, this does not necessarily mean that it is reasonable to think they might one day go open source. It is here that the submitted story fails to compile - scale has nothing whatsoever to do with acceptance of open source. Indeed, scale may be inimical to implementation of open source.

With an organization of WalMart's size, as another post correctly pointed out, it is always advantageous to go the tailor-made way. The reason here is another concept called 'economies of scale'; the tendency for life to get easier the bigger you get.

A small illustration; Company A, annual net profit $10,000, and company B, annual net income $1,000,000. Both need software which, tailored, costs $1,000. It does not really get more expensive to tailor software the bigger the organization gets. More computers does not mean more individually tailored apps. You only, in other words, develop an application once. I know there's exceptions here, such as per license fees and such, but these are exceptions. In our example, company A runs CustomApp on 10 machines and company B runs it on 1,000. Each user, naturally, gains in productivity from using software created exclusively for this particular task he/she performs, and it is here that we notice that the productivity gains in company B are 100 times that felt in company A. The example here is very rough, and full of holes and I'll probably pick up a lot of posts arguing here - but it is basically a sound analysis. Tailoring just makes more sense with these big puppies.

And tailoring software does not mix well with the ideology behind open source.

Essentially, targeting the Company A's of the world would probably be a waste of effort, enticing as their support would be.

Things have to be done the hard way, I think; Company B's are the way to go.

The facts from a former corporate programmer.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm posting this anonymously because, well the NDA's are pretty vague as to what I can really say and what I can't....

1. Wal-Mart *DOES* use Opensource

A: About 2 1/2 years ago they started looking at Redhat, about 6 mos later (and I quote the memo that went out, given that's been 2 years ago, but I still remember it) "We will be consolidating our existing Unix Platmforms on Linux", yup, the ISP (In store processors) were to move to Redhat on Quad Dell box (they are btw Dell's largest single customer). I have no idea what the current progress of this is, but given Kevin Turner's (the CIO) statment to "Make Open platforms really Open" I doubt they would turn back on that commitment.

B: Perl. Perl is an offically approved Language to develop on inhouse although we had quite a bit of resistance from certain in-house teams at first.

2. Wal-Mart "going opensource" (as one poster put it) would have little effect on Sun or Oracle. This is because neither are approved vendors. Sun pissed Wally World off years ago and Oracle is deemed to be just too damned expensive (as was MS SQL Server, Informix and DB2 where the only approved databases).

You will likely NEVER see contributions back to the community from Wally World, they simply don't allow that kind of feedback. Remember your talking about the Worlds largest company, that despite the 1700+ Programmers they have in-house, don't even allow regular Internet access from Corporate (certain sites only and no download access regardless).

The author of the article should have done a bit more research on the topic before writing the story. A quick email to president@wal-mart.com would probally get you a better response.

BTW: also remember your talking about a company that does NOT patent it's internal software like many other companies, they view it entirely as trade secret instead (just ask Amazon.com :-) )

Wal-Mart Online and Open Source? Possibly...

[gimpboy]

i had a roommate who worked at the corporate office in bentonville. he worked on walmart online during it's initial construction. after completing walmart online he said they sold it off to a third party for many reasons (one of the biggest being tax reasons). according to him walmart online ran on a large cluster of linux computers with one box between the cluster and the internet pretending to be a windows 2000 box or something like that. my understanding is that walmart uses linux, but doesnt advertise the fact.

Re:Wal-Mart and Open Source? Never...

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with using proprietary software is that you do have to change your infrastructure when "old versions" working perfectly well are no longer supported. I would not expect WalMart to dump what they already have but at each opportunity where it makes sense(unless they are forced to). One reason I like Sun over a Windows machine is that Sun will support something as far back as Solaris 2.5 but even better is when YOU want to drop something.

I don't really understand your point about training and turnover. With all that turnover you need to train all the time anyway so what is the difference? Those forces work at odds with each other. When turn over is low then you reap the benefits of consistancy.

Now WalMart is not going to just remove a sunk cost but when Walmart needs some new infrastucture you can bet they will do there homework especially if some vendor cut support off at the knees.

Re:Wal-Mart and Open Source? Never...

[Anonymous Coward]

You really need to understand more of this before posting, this is not simply a "run-of-the-mill" proxy server, this is PICS, which Wally World does not own, they simply use.

And yes there is LOTS of business logic involved, the ads can be store/area/topic specific and are kept in sync across the entire chain.

Walmart offends the social ascpect of the opensour

[SocialEcologist]

I really think companies such as Wal Mart are doing the contrary of open source : make a few people richer and the most people poorer by distrubting goods.

Would you like to see all the distribution of open source made by companies that cut off jobs in our countries ? Contract foreign dealers that have no social or ecological consideration ? Sell to poors goods created by poor and enriching a few ones ?

OpenSource is not really compatible with capitalism. Our fight is the following of many other fights in history : it just translates them into technology. For example, I see that during middle age, people had to pay a tax to their lord to use a mill, now people have to pay a tax to bill to use their computer. That's what we want to get rid of. Open Source is a quest for freedom of all, capitalism is a quest for benefits of a few.

Opensource is a sustainable way of development, Wal mart is not.

If Walmart is 900 pounds player, Internet is a 100000000 pounds medium to distribute open source softwares...

YHJBT

[Anonymous Coward]

this whole thread should sing along!

Where do we diverge? :)

[timothy]

I was with you right up until: "And tailoring software does not mix well with the ideology behind open source."

Why do you say that?

Most programmers (something between 80 and 90%, if the Smart People I've heard are to be trusted) work on custom, in-house software (whether working full-time or as consultants, one-off programmers, etc), just the sort of tailoring you're talking about.

I don't know what percentage, but certainly some number in the several thousands of programmers just in the U.S. program with open source tools. They're free to modify GPL or similarly licensed software to do whatever the heck they want, and if there's no redistribution (that is, if it truly remains in-house), they have no obligation to release source to anyone else, either, though they might if they wanted to take part in some cross pollination :)

(Or do I completely misinterpret your point, which is possible :) ?)

timothy

Re:Where do we diverge? :)

[MadFarmAnimalz]

There's 2 scenarios here, I imagine; scenario one where the tools are open source. This does not mean the work itself must be opened, which is not beneficial to the concept of openness.

Scenario 2 has some of the code being used being GPL'ed. I don't know about this; what would most coders do, hunt around for a piece of code closest to requirements then hack it, or code from a scratch? Your answer to that question will either refute or reinforce that part of what I think...

Moreover, what are the odds of the reused code containing functionality deemed to be useless for the specific purpose for which it was obtained? In the rarified example of customization, this would be a Bad Thing.

Then again, I don't code for a living. Sounds like your call here would go further. :)

What?!?!!

[Anonymous Coward]

They are selling at cost.

Maybe they'll actually be forced to come up with ways to be more efficient, so they can lower the cost

Did you even read your own post?

Walmart is selling at cost, and subsidizing it with their profits from other departments, for the sole purpose of driving the competition out of business.

"becoming more efficient" has nothing to do with it.

Read what I wrote

[_typo]

support it (and Linux) well

No company will buy a linux solution if it isn't supported. And most don't have a full IT staff so they need someone else to handle all the non-obvious bug/performance stuff. That's where Redhat comes in. Question is. Is their support good enough?

not whether to integrate, but where?

[dbuttric]

This article raises some good questions about Linux, and business.

I dont think that there is a question that OpenSource could save money for Walmart, but you can see from the other posts here that there are questions about whether or not the churn rate at Walmart would have some impact on systems and profitability at some layer or other.

So the question is this, which services can Linux and its applications offer that offer a clkear incentive to Walmart. Maybe we need to start thinking about which services Linux offers that can minimize the impact of that churn rate.

Or maybe we need to think in a different way than that -- Instead of trying to replace systems entirely, how can we help to augment systems? Can we fit in the food chain in some other place?

"Retail Link" has got to have a large food chain associated with it.

* Integration between retailers systems and the retail link software on the supplier's side.

* The retail link software for suppliers.

* The messaging gateway between supplier and walmart.

Any of these could be a component that we could offer up as a tool.

what if the feature set in the "Retail Link" that we offered, was more modern, and more scalable thanks to our judicious use of the Linux Kernel?

What if we sought out freely available messaging tools that offered SSL, or TLS capabilities?

I guess all I'm saying is that the Linux community can move quickly, we are small, retailers are big, if we want to swim with the fish, we might have to decide which way the current is going first.

The real message...

[dinotrac]

The real message is not necessarily to work Wal-Mart, thought working Wal-Mart certainly could make a big impact.

The real message is to identify those businesses in the supply chain that have incentives to cut costs and have some ability to ripple down the supply chain.

One great example is automotive manufacturers.
Don't know how interested they are, but they have the power, the resources and the skills to implement Open Source solutions if it suits them. They also have huge chains of suppliers who must integrate or go out of business.

Other potentials are any company that must compete with Wal-Mart. These outfits must be desperately looking for ways to streamline. If a compelling case can be made for Open Source, someone out there will bit.

And so on and so forth.

Re:Wal-Mart and Open Source? Never...

[Ami Ganguli]

So educate me. What is this PICS thing? I did a Google search, but all I found was some software that extracts still photos from video. Likely not the same thing.

and another thing they sell

[timothy]

More important than naked PCs is that they sell a boxed distribution, in the form of Mandrake-Linux, actually in stores throughout the country. (The naked PCs appear only to be on their website.)

It would be nice if they also sold Red Hat or some other distribution (along with FreeBSD, etc, too), but if I were running a Walmart, had limited shelfspace, and wanted to (or was willing to at least test) selling *some* version of The GNU/Linux/XF86/ Operating System, Mandrake would probably be my choice, too, because it's the distro that has so far worked best with various and varying systems. As it happens, Mandrake and HP are also somewhat buddy-buddy, and HP and Walmart likewise. Would be nice to get a peanut butter / chocolate magic combination by selling some HP machine bundles pre-configured with Mandrake and working with *everything* (CD-RW, DVD, printer).

In the meantime (am I the only one not boycotting Walmart?), when I stop in for the random oddments of life, I tend to creatively re-arrange the Mandrake boxes in Walmart to take up more space / look larger.

timothy

Re:and another thing they sell

[Captn Pepe]

Judging from their size and crazy profitability, I'd guess that no, there's likely someone else out there not boycotting WalMart. Too bad, really, because it is really a poster child for much of what is wrong with corporate America. I.e. make as much money as possible, with no regard for the costs to society, except when executives feel like using the vast power of a megacorporation to further their personal agendas.

Consider: WalMarts destroy local business via predatory pricing, aggressive marketing, and outright intimidation. Best estimate, for every two jobs created by a WalMart, three jobs in the larger community dissapear. These jobs are regularly worse than average, too: less than 35% of WalMart employees have health insurance, a majority the jobs WalMart creates in communities are part-time, with variable hours and no benefits or opportunity for promotion, and as a result, a significant fraction (a majority in some areas) of WalMart employees live below the poverty line. WalMart justifies these facts by claiming that it primarily creates retail jobs appropriate for working part-time after school or in conjunction with a "real" job. This, when it is single largest employer in many communities.

Nationwide, a majority of WalMart employees qualify for food stamps.

WalMart is also guilty of enforcing cultural homogeneity. Because it is such a large buyer, many publishers in a variety of media -- especially music and magazines -- have begun self-censorship out of fear that WalMart executives will yank a given product from their shelves. The article linked from this story discusses WalMart's increadible influence in the IT market; their influence in a dozen other industries is even larger. People yell about Nike and The Gap because they are brand-image based empires, but most of the output of Mexican, Pacific, and domestic sweatshops ends up on WalMart's shelves, and WalMart is big enough that they don't have to care if people hate them for this.

The WalMart model is a major contributor to urban sprawl and the degradation of community-oriented life. By destroying the local business base, and by locating stores on huge plots of land on the peripheries of towns and cities, it contributes to the flight to the suburbs, thereby increasing dependence on automobile transportation and the assorted problems that leads to.

Enough ranting for now, but maybe you understand why some people aren't too fond of this company. I can't possibly include a reasonably comprehensive set of links here, since people despite WalMart for so many reasons, but a really good links page can be found at Wal-Mart Watch.

Re:and another thing they sell

[sql*kitten]

WalMarts destroy local business via predatory pricing, aggressive marketing, and outright intimidation

That may be true, but you're missing something: no corporation can do anything without the market letting them - there simply would be no money in it. If you must blame someone, blame consumers for voting with their dollars for lower prices and homogenity over higher prices and variety. Given that this is what consumers prefer to pay for, Walmart would be fools not to sell that to them.

You can rant at Walmart all you wish, but if you want to do something about it, you will need to get the market behind you. Convince them that the benefits of "community" are worth a higher weekly grocery bill. I wish you luck.

Re:and another thing they sell

[Captn Pepe]

You can rant at Walmart all you wish, but if you want to do something about it, you will need to get the market behind you. Convince them that the benefits of "community" are worth a higher weekly grocery bill. I wish you luck.

Believe me, there is no shortage of people -- myself included -- who are trying to do exactly that: convince the market that Wal-Mart is too high a price to pay for discounted retail goods. After all, with a few exceptions (violations of labor laws, abuse of local monopolies) Wal-Mart is not a problem that can be solved through external regulation. Instead, it must be attacked by communities deciding that they will not give their dollars to such a corporation, meaning both boycotting existing Wal-Marts and vocally opposing the opening of new ones.

So no, I'm not just ranting about Wal-Mart because it makes me feel better. I'm hoping to make converts and spread the meme of opposition to evil corporate practices, which is why I try to include links documenting my claims as well as links to organiztions involved in this fight.

Re:and another thing they sell

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm... Most of the crap at Pier-1 Imports or Cost-Plus is also "third-world crap", yet where is the boycott of them?

Buy clothes? Odds are it came from a sweatshop somewhere.

Ever work in food processing (i.e., at the IBP up the road, the Tyson's poultry the next town over, or the Kraft food plant downtown)? It blows, too.

One Tale

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello.

I have decided to relate my own view of Wal-Mart based upon a previous working experience there. I began work there last year, September 20, as a bike assembler. Had signed up for a full time permanent position. Some of the business practices were, suffice to say, horrible. Like some other posters have said, I did have to work off the clock, sometimes up to an hour of unpaid work. I didn't gripe too much though, when you have a job, you usually try to let things slide at the beginning.

Things went on like this for the entire time I worked there. My reviews are late, I was denied a raise due to the night crew making a mess of my area and my inability to keep it clean on my days off. Yes that was their reason and what was written down, that I couldn't keep an area clean on my days off. That first review was three weeks late, which I admit is rather uncouth, but once again I stupidly let it slide.

Here is the real kicker now. Four months to the day I was hired, on December 20 and four days before x-mas, they decided to fire me. I was never told a reason and I called and was still not given a reason, they just hung up on me.

This is the expected business practices of Wal-Mart as I was fired due to the season being over, but ahh, I wasn't hired for seasonal and was hired as a permanent employee. Losing that job suddenly has raised hell for my finances and I can't even drive my car anymore without gas money or insurance. They are truly an evil company, far beyond what Microsoft could ever hope to become, and I urge everyone here to shop somewhere else. Low prices be damned, I would rather pay a little more and know it didn't come from such downright evil business practices

There are plenty of other places to shop, even though most of them are still big retail stores, but at least they aren't Wal-Mart. It has been a few months, and I still wonder if I have time enough to do anything, but I doubt it. Advice would be nice if anyone replies, but even if you just read, I hope you have a different view on this company than you did before...or at the very list are bitterer than you were before.

Don't be so down on yourself

[LinuxHam]

Hey, retail sucks and if I stayed in college I wouldn't have this problem so I have no one to blame but myself

Please change your attitude. You certainly can succeed in the IT world, even without a college degree. You just have to sell yourself a little harder. Perhaps you have tried to break into the industry and not had much luck, I don't know, but I've done very well for myself with only a couple years of college.

Re:Don't be so down on yourself

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess that explains the tech downturn. The companies were too ignorant to know who has real experience and who doesn't.

PostgreSQL vs. Oracle, and the Big Picture

[jabbo]

I've done MySQL, PostgreSQL, and Oracle DBA on live sites which were heavily beaten on and had, as customers at various times, Olivetti Inc., CNN, CSPAN, NBC, Fox, Reuters, Bloomberg, Business Week, NOAA, and the Department of Defense. Currently I run PostgreSQL for everything except Snort logging, because

0) I can tune it in about 5 minutes a day, from cron

1) it's cheaper than Oracle, with full transactions, and

2) I can only get Windows binaries of Snort that use MySQL. (eg. the one thing I use MySQL for)

I would not consider MySQL for serious applications because it doesn't do subselects (AFAIK) and its transaction support is fairly new (again AFAIK). Our applications DO need full transaction support for some applications that need versioned updating which only increments on success (hard to explain without showing you the code, which I can't under my NDA.)
I use MySQL for Snort because Roman says that its performance for ACID is the best, and my site seems to bear that out. MySQL 3.2x crumbled in production on a site I managed, and that soured me on the product.

Oracle is a BEAST. Properly tuned, it can blow the doors off of competitors, and OracleTool (http://www.oracletool.com/ is a terrific, free tool. But licensing costs for Oracle make it a tool that is best used in places where it's been in-place for years. I wouldn't adopt it at a new company. Since that's exactly what I work for these days, we use Postgres.

I doubt Wal-Mart will switch from Oracle (or DB2, or Sybase, or SQL Server) if they have a running installation of it. Most likely, it's on Sun if it's an Oracle installation; Blockbuster has a couple of E10K's (or did, last year, at Exodus Sunnyvale) for what appears to be their inventory control and billing system. If it ain't broke, why 'fix' it?

If you need replication, there's always RServ for Postgresql, right now. The number of sites which actually need multimaster replication is not great, and those that do seem to be running DB2 on a Parallel Sysplex or Oracle HA on a SunCluster, in my experience.

Red Hat already supports PostgreSQL. That version is called 'Red Hat Database'. I run Red Hat because I find ext3 to be a useful innovation, and I compile custom kernels; in my personal experience, the individual kernel maintainers for a given functionality (eg. LVM) can be hired for consultation or reached through mailing lists at a similar time-and-opportunity cost to what I'd encounter with a support contract from Red Hat.

Then again, I've been doing this for a while, and am probably not a 'representative' engineer... I've seen some pretty scary loads in my day, not what your average mope encounters, and my customers do not accept downtime.

We use Win2K servers where I work, too, because sometimes that's what is necessary to get the job done. I'd suggest that Wal-Mart's philosophy is closer to mine than to the average open-source hippie's, but with thousands of employees, you have to figure that many of them will be most familiar with Windows, and there is a lot of lock-in incentives for NT/2000/XP on the server side. It wouldn't make sense to expend effort and/or money to chase some mythical Linux 'savings' in many of the applications they find to be 'core'.

As always, YMMV.

Wal-Mart

[Anonymous Coward]

I may not be the best to talk about Wal-Mart, but I do play in it's sandbox. Here at the University of Arkansas, Wal-Mart has poured millions into the business college. They have a $6,000 dollar 42" plasma tv scrolling news about the department. EVERY classroom has overhead projectors. The business school has the nicest computers on campus, hands down. And don't get me started on how nice the rest of their stuff is.

All this time, my side of the computational divide (computer engineering) can barely put together a functional networking lab. It's a kludge of old gateway pc's that run about 133Mhz on average. The teacher who runs it refers to it as the "Crapper Lab". Out biggest donation that I can remember was a half million from Acxiom to fund a database chair. Woop-de-do. I don't think we've seen it because of politics somewhere in the College of Engineering.

Wal-Mart is not about technology. Wal-Mart is cultural juggernaut that is stream rolling across the country leaving concrete deserts in its wake. Wal-Mart may be on the bleeding edge of "efficiency optimization", but they'll never adopt linux. Look at where their education donations go. Imagine their corporate enviroment. Wal-Mart does not take chances. Every dime they spend has a nickel's worth of research behind it. They're not about software innovation, they just want to know what's going to reduce cost and increase sales.

There may be a linux box stuck in the corner someday installed by a wayward techy, but for the most part Wal-Mart Associates (that's what they call ALL EMPLOYEES) wouldn't step out of line any more than a borg drone.

Re:Wal-Mart

[lw54]

Wal-Mart gave $50 Million a few years ago to the University of Arkansas College of Business. They now have the finest computer labs and *every* classroom has everything a professor could possibly want to use.

However, Wal-Mart has done some really awful things to contractors who work for them. (I've heard other stories) A good friend of mine did a bunch of work for them. After completing almost all of the project, one of the things they were working on didn't test properly. Instead of allowing my friend to go back and correct the problem, Wal-Mart said they couldn't fix the issue and refused payment for the *complete* project.

It's been tied up in court for almost two years and my friend has almost gone under because of this. They can afford to hold out until my friend settles for pennies on the dollar.

Wal-Mart does donate money, don't get me wrong, but don't kid yourself. They are a corporation and it's all about the bottom line.

Re:Wal-Mart

[kz45]

It's been tied up in court for almost two years and my friend has almost gone under because of this. They can afford to hold out until my friend settles for pennies on the dollar.

good luck. Walmart has vast experience in this field. They are the #1 entity sued in the united states.

Re:Wal-Mart

[bigmouth_strikes]

EVERY classroom has overhead projectors

Wow. So had all classrooms I attended in the 70's.

Who's the douche who modded this post down?

[jabbo]

Your actions represent the worst of the Slashdot community. The poster expressed a valid, provocative opinion, and the best you can do is try to suppress it?

If you have no counter-argument, you could at least leave the post visible enough for someone who does. Microsoft may be bad for Linux, Wal-Mart is bad for inefficient mom-and-pop shops and perhaps the diversification of our economy and culture. Is that better or worse? Your moderation does not adequately answer this question.

I sincerely hope I'll see your action in metamoderation!

Cheap Junk and Trailer-park trash...

[Robber Baron]

Not to mention that you could hold Jerry Springer auditions at almost any Walmart in the US...

One of the things that has kept me from "embracing the Wal-mart experience" are the bulk of it's customers: Crack ho's and trailer-park trash. That and the fact that most of their products are cheap junk (I guess to appeal to the trash). They want to build one a mile or so from where I live and already there's a sizable opposition to it. I hope they manage to convince city council to say NO. But if they're depending on my business, they won't see dollar one. If local business are forced under, I'll drive great distances before I'll give any business to Wal-Mart.

Re:Cheap Junk and Trailer-park trash...

[wierdo]

One of the things that has kept me from "embracing the Wal-mart experience" are the bulk of it's customers: Crack ho's and trailer-park trash. That and the fact that most of their products are cheap junk (I guess to appeal to the trash).

I agree. I hate shopping at Wal-Mart (although Sam's Club is a different story, IMO)

They want to build one a mile or so from where I live and already there's a sizable opposition to it. I hope they manage to convince city council to say NO.

Why, so they can be excluded from even the attempt to compete? Should a city council pass an ordinance prohibiting the use of Microsoft software within the city, just because you dislike them? Or, on the flip side, should a city council outlaw Free Software because there are a group of people who see it as an attempt to "steal" software profits? Either way you are preventing consumer choice. In that way, those who oppose the opening of Wal-Marts are as bad as Microsoft. I say let the market decide. If the city truly doesn't want a Wal-Mart, there should be no more heard from them after a year, and no profit, and, the business as a whole will be in worse shape for spending the millions of dollars to open a store, only to have it closed due to a lack of income.

But if they're depending on my business, they won't see dollar one. If local business are forced under, I'll drive great distances before I'll give any business to Wal-Mart.

I agree. Perhaps you should educate your neighbors about shopping elsewhere, rather than support their ill-founded attempts to prevent competition and "stifle innovation," as it were.

-Nathan

Re:Cheap Junk and Trailer-park trash...

[Malcontent]

"Why, so they can be excluded from even the attempt to compete? "

There are several reasons. One is that wall mart does not build regular stores. They almost always need to have the zoning regulations changed to fit their business models. In this case they want special treatment and the city is under no obligation to give special treatment to this corporation.

Two> The city has to look at the overall welfare of all it's citizens. When a wall mart opens the money that is spend at wallmart get's funneled out of the city. If you spend your money at mom and pop they will eat at the local restaurant or buy their shoes at the neighborhood store or go the local theater. When you spend money at wallmart the money goes to the east coast and your local community never sees it. The fact is that frequently wall marts harm the local economy. they open up a store, the drive local businesses out, the town's economy suffers because all the money is gone, wall mart closes up shop and moves to fresh feeding grounds.

The city has to look at all factors short and long term when deciding to make accomodations for busineses. They don't work for corporations they work for the people. they damn well better stop corporations from "competing" if the result will be collapse of the city, massive unemployment, death of the down town, and destitution of people who are long term residents.

Re:Cheap Junk and Trailer-park trash...

[base3]

I apologize to you on behalf of minimum wage workers that cook your food, clean the beds in your hotel rooms, and make your lattes for not being able to afford to shop at botique shops and Nordstroms. We humbly apologize for the introduction of Wal-Mart and the like into your midst and promise to work harder to keep our poverty out of your sight.

WalMart runs IIS5 on Linux ????

[DickBreath]

If you go to NetCraft's What's that site running?, and enter www.walmart.com, you get back the following.....

The site www.walmart.com is running Microsoft-IIS/5.0 (WindowsNT) on Linux.

Could it mean the web server is IIS, but the IP stack of some frond end router or getaway is Linux?

Re:WalMart runs IIS5 on Linux ????

[Anonymous Coward]

The IIS thing is moot. Wal-mart.com and Wal-mart Stores are pretty much 2 different organizations.

When Wal-mart originally went online, there were problems, and the pulled all the developers off, created an entirely new 'company', and moved the whole project to California.

symbol of cost conscious efficiency

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't suppose that the poster has any qualms about that fact that the majority of Walmart's goods are manufactured in conditions that are so bad, they make Nike's sweat-shops seem like a volunteer organization.

Switching sides

[Jahf]

Wal-mart is more evil than Microsoft. I've seen way to many small cities where I've lived (Wichita, Ks, Huntsville, Al, Murfreesboro, TN) have a Wal-mart show up, setup a small store ... put tons of small shops out of business, then abandandon the small store (usually leaving an ugly skeleton sitting around for years) to put up a super-center and proceed to put the other -chains- in the area (grocery stores, electronics stores, etc) out of business.

The standard of living goes down in these areas as the shop owners are forced to work as employees instead of employers for far less money and the profits of all of those businesses go to Wal-mart's HQ in Texas instead of back into the local economy.

The culture of the area also begins to vanish as the area is homogenized into the streamlined Wal-Mart style of strip mall neighborhoods.

There are many many many other examples of this across the country. There are social and scientific studies done on the matter. Very few show positive benefit for the local economies or culture.

Microsoft may put technology companies that have been around for 5-10 years out of business. Wal-mart puts shops that have been around 50-100 years out of business and destroys pieces of Americana in the process.

At least with Microsoft they do add innovation to their market. There are things that I can do on my Linux desktop today that I probably wouldn't be able to do without Microsoft. I want to see Microsoft brought back in line so that they are not monopolizing the industry, but I don't want to see them removed completely.

Wal-mart on the other hand could go away completely and I would be happy. Even with the rising prices. And, if the corporations that feel stung by Wal-Mart would realize it, they could help stave off this problem by treating other retailers equally to how Wal-Mart is treated (ie, equal costs and equal availability).

Wal-Mart is the monopoly with the far worse need for being regulated here.

Re:Wal-Mart and Open Source? Never...

[dillon_rinker]

I hesitate to rep to such an obvious troll...but here goes. Your key paragraph, the one one which your entire argument rests is this one:

Would it be cost-effective for Wal-Mart to go Open Source? Not likely. The turnover in staff at the home office alone, combined with training for new positions, etc, would cost millions, not to mention that they would have to literally double their server count at all of their 3,000+ stores. They would need to develop, test and deploy thousands of servers with the new software, hook them into the existing systems to take over various jobs, and then remove the existing servers. All of that for what, to save licensing fees? No, I don't think so.

This is perfectly valid in the extreme short term - say, a month, or a quarter, or maybe even a year. But do you REALLY think that WalMart is going to retain ALL of its existing systems for a period of five or ten years? Do you think the corporate heads are looking at the next quarter (a la Enron) or the next ten years (a la WalMart of the past)? I'd say the latter. That's why you're a troll: you assume that there will be NO changes in software, NO process improvements, NO training, NO turnover for the next several years. I'll grant you that next to such a pristine, unchangeable standard as perfection, open source doesn't look so good. But when you compare the implementation costs of going to Linux to the implementation costs of going to some other operating system (which *will* happen unless WalMart decides never to upgrade again), you see comparable costs.

"Efficiency" really stealing from public good

[michaelmalak]

"Such a symbol of cost conscious efficiency..."

Wal-Mart "passes the savings on to you" by:

1. Importing goods produced by Chinese slave labor
2. Transferring "last mile" distribution costs to customers, taxpayers, the environment, pedestrian safety, ...

This second item bears more explanation:

• Wal-Mart takes from its customers. Customers "willingly" drive farther to shop at Wal-Mart, but usually based on the price of gas (6 cents per mile) rather than the full amortized price of automobile operation, which according to AAA is 51 cents per mile.
• Wal-Mart takes from taxpayers. Wal-Mart generates a lot of VMT (vehicle miles traveled) but doesn't pay for the roads to carry it. Oh, they may pay for an extra lane and signal in front of the store, but not for increased capacity in the several-hundred-square-mile market area.
• Wal-Mart takes from everyone in its market area. VMT by its nature steals from the public good because cars on a per-mile basis don't pay for their negative side effects: air pollution, water pollution (including temperature rises due to impervious surface runoff), noise pollution, increased danger to bicycles and pedestrians.
• Wal-Mart takes from the environment. Besides the environmental concerns due to increased VMT, there are two more. First, there is the runoff from its vast parking lots and large store (during a rainstorm, this suddenly increases the temperature of streams by several degrees, which kills fish since fish cannot tolerate temperature changes the way people can). Second, Wal-Mart makes disposable buildings. Wal-Mart builds its large buildings to last seven years, then leaves them as vacant blighted eyesores as they move to even bigger superstores.

When it comes to Wal-Mart, "efficiency" means "theft" -- not the sort of efficiency that Linux should associate itself with.

Re:"Efficiency" really stealing from public good

[Chester K]

Customers "willingly" drive farther to shop at Wal-Mart, but usually based on the price of gas (6 cents per mile) rather than the full amortized price of automobile operation, which according to AAA is 51 cents per mile.

I don't know about you, but the Wal-Marts in my town are right alongside the other retail chains. I don't have to drive farther, so those extremely long stretches of logic you used to pin theft on Wal-mart don't even apply.

Re:"Efficiency" really stealing from public good

[michaelmalak]

I don't know about you, but the Wal-Marts in my town are right alongside the other retail chains. I don't have to drive farther, so those extremely long stretches of logic you used to pin theft on Wal-mart don't even apply.

Then perhaps your town is the only one in which Wal-Mart didn't put other stores out of business. In other towns, those who lived near the neighborhood stores now must drive to Wal-Mart.

Re:"Efficiency" really stealing from public good

[Anonymous Coward]

u must be the world's most boring troll. plz to be trying harder.

Re:"Efficiency" really stealing from public good

[The Evil Troll King]

Our Wal Mart is out by itself on the outskirts of town. People that live in town that want to go to Wal Mart driver farther that they would to visit any other store, and in a completely different direction. It's like this in every single town I've been in, except for the suburbs of big cities.

What the original poster said about Wal Mart leaving behind a string of empty buildings is true, too. However, it's common for all big chains to do this. Even though we're going through a lot of growth, the East side of my town consists mostly of empty, decaying supermarkets, gas stations, K-Marts, and the like.

I think the claims that Wal Mart is guilty of theft are far-fetched, but the negative effects of Wal Mart cannot be ignored.

Steve

Re:"Efficiency" really stealing from public good

[cburley]

GNU/Linux "passes the savings on to you" by:

1. Importing goods produced by University slave labor

2. Transferring "last mile" distribution costs to customers, taxpayers, the environment, web-browser safety, ...

This second item bears more explanation:

• GNU/Linux takes from its customers. Customers "willingly" hack more to run GNU/Linux, but usually based on their hourly income ($40/hr) rather than the full amortized price of hacker uptime, which according to ACM is $135/hr.

• GNU/Linux takes from taxpayers. GNU/Linux generates a lot of bandwidth but doesn't pay for the capacity to carry it. Oh, it may pay for an extra server and router in front of a website, but not for increased capacity in the several-hundred-thousand-node market area.

• GNU/Linux takes from everyone in its market area. Bandwidth by its nature steals from the public good because servers on a connect-time/data basis don't pay for their negative side effects: spam, pr0n (including temperature rises due to impervious surface runoff), MP3s, increased danger to neophytes and AOL users.

• GNU/Linux takes from the environment. Besides the environmental concerns due to increased bandwidth, there are two more. First, there is the runoff from its vast data farms and large IP address space (during a DDOS, this suddenly increases the data flow of intranets by several GB/s, which kills W98 boxes since they cannot tolerate dataflow changes the way Sun servers can). Second, GNU/Linux makes disposable releases. GNU/Linux builds its large releases to last seven months, then leaves them as vacant blighted DVDs as they move to even bigger releases.

When it comes to GNU/Linux, "efficiency" means "theft" -- not the sort of efficiency that Wal-Mart should associate itself with.

;-)

how walmart destroys towns.

[Da_Monk]

I saw this in a small town in upstate NY,
walmart sent reps to all the small towns in the area, advising them to prepare to be driven out of business. the reps also took not of the average prices of certain items. when the walmart opened, all the prices were lower than the neighborhood small stores. once all the small stores were driven out of business, unable to match the prices, the walmart proceeded to raise its prices ABOVE what the small stores were selling items at. whenever a new store opened up, the walmart would lower its prices again until that store went away.

I really dont understand why slashdotters continue to harp on the evils of microsoft when walmart and AOL-Time Warner are quite a bit worse.

Re:how walmart destroys towns.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wal-Mart is a cancer.

The perfidity of Wal-Mart is not the point

[Jack William Bell]

I wish I had some way of marking every "Wal-Mart is evil!" post as offtopic in one fell swoop. Walmart probably is evil to some extent; every large corporation is. But the author's use of Wal-Mart as an example tends to obscure his real point. The key passage in the article is the closing paragraph, quoted here with every instance of 'Wal-Mart' changed to '[Big-Biz]':

Today's economic reality is that high-tech decisions made in Arkansas play a larger role in boosting America's productivity than decisions made in Silicon Valley or Seattle. If you appreciate clever innovations, spend more time with inventors, entrepreneurs and venture capitalists. If you want to know which innovations will rewrite the productivity statistics, ignore early adopters and identify the [Big-Biz] in key vertical markets. Moore's Law is a necessary but not sufficient condition for economic growth; [Big-Biz]'s motto is what makes Moore's Law matter.

Those of you who want to focus on '[Big-Biz]' as evil are obscuring a more important question; can Open Source break into [Big-Biz]? The thing is, computers really have produced a considerable pay-off for [Big-Biz] and small-biz. That is why they use them. In the case of [Big-Biz], however, cost-effictiveness is probably the sole reason they use them. [Big-Biz] doesn't care about the cool factor.

So, if we want to see Open Source grow beyond colleges and a few small-bizs we need to seriously consider how to show [Big-Biz] they can save money by adopting Open Source Tools.

Implicit, but not mentioned explicitily, in the article is the extra question "Can we get [Big-Biz] to adopt the philosophy of Open Source as a cost saving measure as well?" By definition [Big-Biz] wants to make lots of money and to squeeze out their competitors. That kind of behavior is what made them [Big-Biz] in the first place. From their viewpoint you don't squeeze out your competitors by creating great tools and giving them away for your competitors to use against you. We need to find ways to make the argument that the win from this behavior is greater than any possible loss.

However, if you hate [Big-Biz] because you hold anti-capitalist views, then you should also be against helping them to understand Open Source. Personally I think that kind of stance is both quixotic and wrong-headed. But you should be clear in you purposes.

Jack William Bell

Re:The perfidity of Wal-Mart is not the point

[DeputySpade]

One of the most clear-headed and on-topic posts yet. Many here seem to be missing the point. The point wasn't that the specific business mentioned in the article would be "good" to associate yourself with, it was that getting a business of that magnitude on-board would drive the proverbial stake through the heart of the typical Anti-OSS FUD from redmond.

What really matters.

[mokapa]

It should have always been apparent that what drives technological [sp?] growth is the consumer demand for it. In this case, the consumer that should be watched is the super consumer chain of wal-mart.

I see it as nothing suprising that Wal-marts bussiness descisions affect the whole economy, their fscking big man.....

Re:I pay $.77 for gas... From a Mom and Pop

[puto]

Ok, Wal-Mart gas comes from a a company called Murphy Oil. A family owned petroelum refiner. Not exactly Shell or Chevron, but a fairly large business. Puto

Too many backwards thinkers.

[jag164]

I haven't been to a wal-mart in a few years. I can pick up my knick knacks, TV's, etc... at variuous stores in my area while driving by 3 walmarts in the 25 mile radius.

BUT, the things I have bought at walmart work fine and are still around and I'm buying things made by other companies such as Whirlpool, Emerson, RCA...

On the flip side, though I'm a *nix fellow, I can't get by a normal work week without having to hop on a frigging microsot box and fight through the numerous BSOD's I typically get.

Until I'm forced to go to Walmart b/c it the only place and item is available, they are not evil. Until walmart starts buying (hostile takeover?) compaines such as Emerson and Whirlpool and slapping their name on products, I'll go to one if I need a product I know I can get there.

it is aleady being done

[zoftie]

I worked with a guy who was manager there, told impressive stories how they manage their installations. They have many mainframes in the offices. They licence compaq and IBM to do the hardware, so they don't have to deal with that inhouse.
I think matter is irrelevant, they have a system that works well, adheres to strictest guidelines on safe data warehousing. Besides linux is not really a mainframe os. for gods sake you >2GB files are not standard in kernel options.
Thousands of these small tiny bits that make linux good for small to medium enviroments, turn ugly in highly scaled database/raid environments. Afraid to say it, linux distributions and support is not up to the ante to deal with big boys.

Re:it is aleady being done

[DeputySpade]

Um... Do you REALLY think that a company with needs as specialized as Wally World's would use an off-the-shelf Red Hat install for data warehousing? WTF? Um... earth to whoever you are, the cost of such minor customization as configuring and compiling a decent kernel would be such a miniscule part of a technology overhaul that they are NOT worth mentioning here. Please mod your own post down so others will not have to wince when they read it.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

The stuff at WalMart is mostly made in China

[hqm]

If you look at the actual products sold at WalMart, a large fraction are made in China.
Some fraction of that is essentially slave labor.
Americans may vote with their pocketbook, but
that does not absolve people of the responsibility
for understanding where cheap stuff really comes from.

Re:The stuff at WalMart is mostly made in China

[Twisted Logic]

China, India, Egypt, Nepal, among many other countries where slave labour seems to be common practice.

Re:The stuff at WalMart is mostly made in China

[Anonymous Coward]

So do you buy produce at your grocery store or at the farmer's market? Do you go with out for 3-6 months until the farmer's market is closed for the winter?

Do you buy strawberries in december (that come from Mexico, Chile, or other warm-in-winter places)?

If you have children, do you chooose to buy milk that is labeled "organic", "no rBGH", and pay about a 25-50% premium on it? Etc.etc.etc. Do you stop at McDonald's or Burger King when you're on the road, or do you stop at any non-national chain face feeding store instead?

blahblahblah.

Re:Wal-Mart and Open Source? Never...

[RatOmeter]

I'll double the reply to your post which said you obviously don't work at corporate AR.

A close family member of mine works at HP and for several years was assigned to "The Wal-Mart Account." He often commuted (600 miles or so) to "lovely Benton-Hell" to handle the technical fallout of management decisions and other major crap. When corp Wal-Mart says to corp HP, "jump," HP says "I'm already jumping, do you want higher, to the left, to the right?" WM *always* plays the *big guys* (IBM, HP, Sun, others) off each other, so you gotta stay on their good side.

I have to wonder if Wal-mart's cost-cutting (retail and behind-the-scenes-techo-retail) is a part of HP's early adoptance of Linux when they've clearly had a top leading eunichs product for oh so many years.

Circumstantial evidence I've seen, plus WM's "cost-cutting," means I'll believe it if someone tells me WM has HP installing Linux on Sun boxen, talking to IBM iron.

900 Lb gorilla is right.

I though I was the only person

[Perdition]

that rearranged Drake in the Wallies... I even intermingled it with XP so that people could make the connection. One day, I took my 'Drake loaded laptop into the mall food court and was typing away. A guy was sitting near me and saw that this wasn't Windows and asked me about it. When I told him the price at Wal-Mart, he just about gagged. Seems he had spent around 400 bucks "upgrading" to XP about a week before. Needless to say, he said he was going to "check it out".

Re:Wal-Mart and Open Source? Never...

[Anonymous Coward]

HP-UX as part of the POS (point-of-sale) network

No, Wal-Mart uses IBM's 4690 OS, and has for decades (in their POS terminals). In fact, Wal-Mart is the primary reason that 4690 is still around. It is possible that either Wal-Mart will move 100% to Linux, or (more likely) 4690 OS will adopt the Linux kernel (replacing its current kernel).

Wrong.

[Anonymous Coward]

They are spending loads of money on teaching Linux/OSS in-house even as we speak. However, they were spending $'s on M$ ASP 3-4 years ago.
Generally when corps give money to schools, it is up to the school how to use it and they are normally targeting the current need, not the future. The students from your school will be doing Mainentence, while the MIT's, CMU, CSU and others will be doing the new development.

"Stupidest Idea of the Year" Award!!!

[ScottKin]

How unimaginably STUPID are the people that come up with these ideas?!??! This is "grasping-at-straws" to it's nth-degree!!!

What is the demographic of WalMart shoppers?

1.) VCR has been blinking "12:00" since 1984
2.) Uses CD-ROM drive tray on their E-Machines PC for coffee-cup holder
3.) Thinks "Sha-na-na" is still pretty swell
4.) Doesn't use any of the buttons on their Remote Control beyond "Ch. UP", "Ch DN", "Vol. UP" and "Vol. DN" because they can't make sense of it
5.) Believes that when you change the channel on the TV, it will change the channel that you're recording on the VCR.
6.) Actually believes that Al Gore invented the Internet
7.) Never heard of "LINUX" until their geek-nephew/grandson/neighbor's son tried to install it on their dusty 486sx, which caused them to trash that machine and buy the E-Machines PC with the nice coffee-cup tray
8.) Is actually afraid of getting the "Happy Times" virus on their PC
9.) Voted for Dewey instead of Truman
10.) Voted for Barry Goldwater

You think Ma` & Pa` Kettle are going to be able to successfully run a Linux system??!?!?

If you do, I have some lovely property in Florida I'd love to sell you!

WAKE THE HELL UP, YOU STUPID, IGNORANT LINUX-O-PHILES!!! THE AVERAGE PC USER WILL TOSS THEIR PC IN THE GARBAGE IF THEY TRY TO INSTALL LINUX!!!

LINUX: "Linus, Now I Understand Xenophobia!"

Oracle's features are it's biggest pain

[Moderation abuser]

And it's biggest asset.

If PostgreSQL implements all the features that Oracle supports, it'll become just as much of a pain in the arse as Oracle to administer.

I wouldn't be in a big hurry to add masses of features.

The real value of free software

[argoff]

I don't think many people understnad...

Today I can roll my own opperating system for under $1000, where merely 10 years ago it would cost over 10 million - that is the value of free software. (in fact, with any free software, not just opperating systems)

Today if I want my 500 friends (business partners, whatever) to veiw special graphic files, I don't half to send them out to buy a $300 software package. Now they can get it for free saving 150K between us - that is the value of free software

Today I can collaberate with my 500 friends (business partners, whatever) - if we each make a $200 improvement to a software package we each get a piece of software with $100000's worth of improvement. That is the value of free software.

These forces are pushing free software into the marketplace, and are the reason why it is and will become prevalent everywhere. Even if WalMart goes gung ho against Linux, it will make no difference. They are not the force driving Linux - WalMart is small compaired to global marketplace, Linux will happen either way.

The fact that he is so up there thinking that chains like WallMart are going to make all the difference shows that he just doesn't get it and is out of touch with what is really happening in the trenches.

I'm sorry, I'd take MS over Wal-Mart anyday.

[Bluetick]

Wal-Mart may be the number one company in the country, but they're also probably the most hated and despised company in the country as well. Take a look on the net, you'll find any number of sites devoted against them (cutely named things like "Us against the Wal").

Just about everytime a Wal-Mart goes up, they railroad anyone who opposes them. I live in what once was a 100 year flood plain in Southern Louisiana. Thanks to development like Wal-Mart, it's now a three year flood plain. We've proven any number of times that development like this is horrendous for the environment, hell the local Corps of Engineers here FLAT out lied just to get the development.

Microsoft at least doesn't treat their own employees like crap, Wal-Mart does. Wal-Mart has one of the highest turn over rates in the country. Microsoft just abuses it's competitors. Wal-Mart has used predatory pricing to for out much more business than Microsoft has. Now, I'm not a Windows hugger by any means, but they aren't half the demon that Wal-Mart is.

Wal-Mart is like a nuclear power plant. Sure it's all well and good that they exist. But people just don't want it in their neighborhood. And when it comes to their neigborhood, they can't do anything to stop it.

Redhat support...

[Anonymous Coward]

...answer: no, from what I've experienced, it sucks. Charging money for what Redhat calls support is a crime.

Re:"Stupidest Idea of the Year" Award!!!-your post

[Anonymous Coward]

Ask yourself why no one has responded to your "opinion" so far? And no, "I'm correct and they can't see that " isn't the reason.

Re:The stuff at WalMart is mostly made in China-US

[Anonymous Coward]

A LOT of stuff comes from china.
I have a stuffed "Tux" that comes from there.
I guess we're a nation of bad people then because we're the larges market for their goods.

Re:Too many backwards thinkers.-toolate.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Until I'm forced to go to Walmart b/c it the only place and item is available, they are not evil."

Ummm...if you wait till that's evident, isn't it too late?

Not on nearly the same scale.

[autopr0n]

Microsoft has driven a few comanies out of bussness. Netscape, Borland, Corel... But each of those comanies were huge, had some degree of missmanagement that caused their own downfall. And more importantly, anyone who worked for those comanies would have no trouble finding another job. Also all of those companies were on the same scale, or at least near to, the size of M$

Walmart on the other hand, kills small bussness left and right, small local stores, who's employees then have no choice but to move, find another line of work, or work for wallmart.

Microsoft may make our lives more annoying, Walmart ruins peoples lives. The two are hardly comparable.

What?

[autopr0n]

You think people would stop upgrading their computers if M$ stoped adding more crap to their OS?

That's a hell of a strech there dude, Nvidia for everquest addiction, or the free software foundation for Eric S. Raymond.

MOD THIS UP!

[DeputySpade]

Somebody mod this post up. This is a big debate about whether to stop fighting one ugly giant and befriend another... OSS _IS_ a big ugly giant. If the OSS folks have their way, people will stop paying for the development of operating systems, office suites, web servers, etc. Heck, I can find an OSS equivalent for nearly any comercial CSS (Closed Source Software) product out there. It strikes me as ironic that the dialogue is swirling around Microsoft stomping businesses out of existance and Wal*Mart stomping businesses out of existance and whether attacking one or befriending the other is the better course for promoting OSS so that _IT_ can stomp businesses out of existance.

MOD THIS UP!

[DeputySpade]

Somebody PLEASE mod this up! This hits the nail right on the head. Wal Mart drives the cliche "Mom & Pop" business out because they move in to an area where people's situations are so economically precarious that they will JUMP at the chance to save $.30 on a loaf of bread. Wal Mart exists precisely because it benefits it's shoppers for it to exist. They guy who washes dishes at the local steak house has to make a choice between buying a can of soup for $.97 at the local family-owned grocer or $.64 at Wal Mart, and as condescending as you anti-wal*mart zealots are being, you have to grant that even the dish washer has basic math skills.

Also, I find it hard to believe that there are many communities in which the ONLY place to aquire the essentials is Wal Mart. I find it hard to believe that Wal Mart is driving out EVERY retailer so that a community is left with NO choice for it's essentials other than Wal Mart. If I am right about this it means something very important. It means that Wal Mart can not raise their prices to an unreasonably inflated level because their competition would then draw the business of our friend the dish washer. Am I wrong about this? Are there many communities in which the only place to buy bread, canned food, milk, gas, oil, clothing, etc... is Wal Mart? I am picturing in my head the layout of the communities surrounding the last dozen or so Wal Mart stores I've been to. None of them match that description.

Nobody forces you to shop at Wal Mart

[pHDNgell]

I've been to a Wal-Mart twice since I moved away from Arkansas (it was my local grocery store). I can get the same products from other vendors, sometimes for more money, sometimes for less.

When was the last time someone told you that you *had* to purchase a telephone from Wal-Mart before you were allowed to talk to him?

How do you know?

[pHDNgell]

I've not seen a comprehensive list of companies Microsoft has killed, but I was working with a guy from Quarterdeck who told me about how MS killed them.

Quarterdeck produced QEMM, which any old-school DOS users should remember as the best memory management system available at the time. MS wanted it, and offered to buy the company. The company did not want to sell. MS put in an a very large order for boxed copies of QEMM. Quarterdeck took out short-term loans to fill the order, and when they were ready to ship, MS cancelled. There goes a competitor.

I'm sure there are lots of stories like this we haven't heard.