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Robotic Mini-sub to Inspect NYC Water System
jhiv writes: "The Delaware Aqueduct, one of the world's longest water tunnels, may be developing potential serious leaks, according to this article in the New York Times (free registration). One leak has already created a pond and a stream with a flow of a million gallons per day. New York city officials plan to use a robotic mini-submarine being developed by the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution to inspect the interior of the 13 foot diameter tunnel. Previous repairs required four deep sea divers to spend almost a week at 700 feet pressure to fix a leaking valve. Ironically, if the tunnel is repaired, the wetlands created by leaks will be destroyed, causing a potential EPA violation. Additional coverage can be found here and here." NYC has been building a third major water tunnel to take the load off the first two - but it's a fifty-year project.
It's simply amazing to me how much we take for granted our water supply....
:-)
That said, I hope there's still water to run through the aqueduct come May.... we're having a SERIOUS drought condition here in the Northeast...
In fact, both Jersey and New York (ever notice how Jersey is the only "New" state that can be named without the "new"? Anyway...) Anyway, both Jersey and New York are in a "Stage 3" water emergency.... and it's only early March!
This is gonna be a bad one.... let's hope the little yellow submarine finds some secret cache of a few billion gallons
--NBVB
This is probably one of the best ideas as in some cases water could flow in. Building some sort of water testing systems or collection systems into the sub for testing would be g00d as sources of contamination from chemical factories could also be found.
internet like monkeys'
The television show Beauty & The Beast with Linda Hamilton filmed in the huge hole that was in NY's Central Park 10 years ago. This hole was the drop point for large equipment to get lowered into the tunnel being digged. For those inerested it was West-South-West of Delcorte Theater. I think the new drop point is in Queens now...
"...and generally behaved in a manner one can only describe as despicable." - February 27 2001, Michael Sims
The nice thing about this capital project, is it may be the first major capital project that is on schedule. Compared to the Big Dig in Boston, the NYC water project is remarkably on schedule, and is even arguably ahead of schedule.
In fact, 13 miles of the third tunnel is ALREADY activated and allows a little of the stress of tunnels 1 and 2 to be relieved.
I can't even imagine what the city will do when this project will be done... they'll be a serious amount of money freed up for more capital projects. Perhaps sinking the west side highway from canal to the brooklyn/battery tunnel and creating another central park-type area? The idea's been batted around since the 80s. Hmm... Gotta say, nothing seems to keep NYC down.
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Seriously though isn't the hudson system supposed to supply some of the cleanest water in the world to the denizens of new york?
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
Of all the ridiculous, stupid things... a wetlands that is artificial, when removed, is an EPA violation? JFC, things have gotten out of hand.
You'd think that the artificial wetlands WOULD be an EPA violation, since it is not supposed to be there and has obviously changed the area dramatically.
Welcome to era where environmentalist whackos can take your property rights if your water pipe has a leak and makes a pond of standing water in your back yard. Suddenly, your property is a wetlands, and we all know you can't damage a wetlands. The poor tadpoles might need to go find a new home.
And the damage to your land equity isn't even reimbursed most places.
"Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
What I find most interesting about all of this is the statement about repairs being too risky and to just let the thing leak itself to death, hopefully while building a new tunnel.
I agree with the lawyer in this case -- this seems like a really serious problem, with the capability of affecting many, many people. NYC has already had it's share of disasters, hopefully a city-wide water failure won't be next.
I was also thinking about that 1958 inspection, and the statement in the article about how draining a high pressure underground tunnel can be very dangerous to it's structure. Is it possible that a significant amount of damage occured in the '58 jeep tour, when the tunnel is drained? The sources at hand even state the sink-hole was created around this time, so possibly the ignorance of the past and an inspection is to blame for these leaks?
All I can say is I hope they will do something preventative. How big is the risk to do repairs vs. building a new tunnel? Hopefully we will all have water in a few years! This news (including the 12-year cover up) is certainly interesting to know...and it's been going on all along under our feet!
I wouldn't take much risk with something as fundamental as water.
"I'll just chip in a bit for RedHat: I actually have that installed on my university machine." - Linus, '95
Why don't they just use duct tape to seal the leak?
The job seems like _the_ poster-boy for why we need autonomous robots...
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
It's an aquaduct, not a sewer.
First of all, the Corps of Engineers regulates filling of wetlands (through the 404 permit process), not the EPA.
Second of all, this is exempt from Corps fill requirements as it is a man-made water source.
How do I know? Because I'm the one that gets Corps wetland delineations done for the water agency I work for, and man-made sources (like those created from all of our water sampling stations) are NOT regulated by the Corps.
The guy in the article said "Those wetlands are going to dry up and that's probably against the law." Note the "probably". He obviously does not do regulatory work.
Before anyone else on this board talks about "environmentalist whackos", get your facts straight.
This must be the start of a scam to get New York locked into higher water wholesaling prices.
:)
Beware of owning any exciting water wholesaling companies come next fall!
my blog
Okay, chuckles. Lets go over this so even you can understand. In the Catskill Mountains, there's a big lake. Huge. Very hard to miss. It's got a sign above it. (In several places, actually.) This supplies the water of NYC. It's no secret.
;p
Now, lets say you can go through a few dozen feet of rock. Okay? After you've gone through that, you can go through another dozen feet of cement. THEN you'll have made a teensy hole. What, you think this is a 3" pipe, like in your wall?
So. You're going through nearly 100' of solid rocky stuff. With what, dear eliza? A focused nuclear blast? A big drill? Lots of o's in the word stupid? Go ahead, you're the evil mastermind. Why not turn on your tap, and try to drink the cities water supply? Think how many people you could kill if you drank it all!
Also, on the DEP site is the plan for what to do if both tunnels ever catastrophically failed. It includes desalinazation, as well as a large lake in the middle of central park, and the water table for Long Island being sucked dry.
But thanks for trying to feel superior. You're not. You're actually pretty dull. Have a nice day! You've been flamed!
YOU want a road...or does your CAR want a road? Think about it. There's ways to have everything that we have now, and not own a personal car.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
No, all you need is one psychic alien!
Dreamcatcher, by Stephen King
Lets scale back on the anti-car sentiment here. Cars are innocent free ranging creatures no need to bash them.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
You can't be serious?
:)
No one is talking about 'a few extra trees'
When they say NJ has no water table, that means there's no money left in the bank... The area is living hand to mouth here.
Water in the ground is like money in the bank. If there's any sort of disruption (manmade, natural, catastrophe, or otherwise), THERE IS NO WATER.
So... you in NJ with decent roads, better and bigger facilities and housing, but absolutely no water. What would you do? Nothing to drink with, nothing to bathe with, nothing to clean with...
Or rather, there *would* be water, but you may not be able to afford to use it, if it's priced like milk or gas
GPL Deconstructed
3 thousand, not 7.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
That's only up to about 3100 or so.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
I have respect for my country. I have respect for those who gave their lives willingly to better their fellow man.
Those dead in the WTC did not. It is of course tragic, but imo they are innocent bystanders when people backlashed against (perhaps only percieved) American oppression. And perhaps I should be dead with them for not turning our government towards more things like the Empire State Building, and the 3rd Water Tunnel, and away from policing the world, and forcing our laws and idologies on foreign lands.
Great wonders, prosperity, and people make America great; not our Armies and Diplomats. I've respect for my country, but I remember all its fallen, not just the 'tragedy of the week'.
Coward.
Are they nuts?! Just driving a harmless little robot around the sewer system. Next thing you know you'll have alligators in the street, vigilante ninja turtles and rivers of slime that lead to bill murray driving Mecha Liberty around with a 8 bit Nintendo "arcade style" joystick!
What the hell are they thinking?!
-- Mike wildcard@illuminatus.org
Never mind...
I suspect many geeks would also be interested in this book The Great Stink of London about the Victorian engineering works that transformed London and the Thames. A fascination subject, considering the same tunnels etc. are still in use today. If any code you write lasts as long then ....
development.lombardi.com
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The water was not from a man-made source. It was diverted, and therefore at least partially natural. That's all the Corps needs.
>So a MAN made water source is a wetlands.
m arsh.asp ]
There is no such thing. We don't mine the
sun, fuse the helium and burn the hydrogen...
But less literally, you're still wrong:
[http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200111/
Were that I say, pancakes?
Roman aquaducts seem to be lasting 20 times as long as this. Silly capitalism. :)
Seriously, crumbling infrastructure is only part of the reason that I see water getting (comparitively) real expensive in our lifetime. As source waters get more scarce and contaminated treatment costs go up. Plus the infrastructure is just wearing out. And since governments (at least in N. America) seem loathe to raise taxes, the costs are going to be passed on to the end user. Which I really don't think is a bad thing, once people realize the real costs of the resources they take for granted, conservation should go way up.
So yeah, flame me for being a tree hugger. Some are passionate about linux, I'm passionate about water.
Laugh while you can, monkey boy!
We get our water from the Croton system; none comes from the Hudson River anymore, which is probably a good thing. Let's just say I wouldn't want to let any of it get on my skin, let alone in my mouth.
For some reason, it kinda reminds me of Fantastic Voyage. Nevertheless it is quite cool. I guess the next logical step would be to build a robot to actually do the repairs as well.
I want a car. I want my car on the road. I could care less what my car wants.
How is it our Goverment can take 10.. !10! years for somthing like this.. yet takes NO TIME at all to pass legislation like the SSSCA or the DMCA
i dunno if i mean this to be funny or insightfull, i dont know.. i just dont get.. really dose any one get it? i dont.
The More Knowledge you have the Luckier you Get- J.R. Ewing
Maybe they will find that baby alligator I flushed down the toilet back in the '80's...
"It's comin' back around again..." -RATM
I looked on the DEP site for the plan about making a large lake in central Park, couldn't find it... Link please?
Tim
Omnia vestra castrorum habetur nobis.
--br. Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
No, not making a large lake. There's a former reservoir (now inactive) there already. Don't worry about a link, check a map. ;)
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
(waits for the forehead slapping and groaning)
Starkle, starkle, little twink.
It's a joke, not an annoying correction.
I'm a concientious
What's the point of this supid stat?
What are you trying to state. If you are arguing too many people are getting hurt in the Middle East fighting why break it down by nationality? If you are arguing the higher number of death on the Palestinian side is what is important then would change their conception of who is "right" or "wrong" if groups like Hamas had their way and were successful in killing hundreds of Jews?
Lobster Spaghetti dude.
I wonder if I spelled that right...
We can't even put ONE house on the aforementioned 7 acres. They won't even budge 1 bit.
So sue them under the 5th amendment "Takings" clause of the Constitution.
- You have their assessment - and the standard for assessed valuation vs. sale price, and comparable values from sale prices of houses in the area that have sold recently that would be similar to what yours would be if you could build it.
- You also have comparable values for swampland with restrictions from the same area.
So sue the agency that is blocking you for the difference.
This has been EXTREMELY successful in the recent past, thanks to some supreme court decisions relating to a situation in California. (A church camp burned down. The zoning board blocked permits to rebuild for years while considering whether to allow rebuilding at all. The church sued for the reduction of the value to the property (value of property where you can build a camp - value of property where you can't build a camp). The Supreme Court agreed with them, establishing the doctrine of "partial taking".
So look up that case, find a good lawyer who understands it (or the one who DID it), and start a suit.
One of three things will happen:
- They do an about-face and grant you your permits. (You'll have your land value back, less fees for the lawyer to send a letter and maybe start the suit.)
- You win. (You'll have your land value back, less the lawyer's fees for running the suit - and you may be able to collect that, too.)
- You lose and lose on appeal. (You're out the cost of the case. But you have the satisfaction of dragging the bureaucrats through the courts for a while. B-) )
(And while you're at it, think about a civil rights suit: "Denial of Civil Rights under Color of Law.")
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
And after this is fixed, New York can finally repair Flood Control Dam #3.
So aren't they not supposed to be posting stuff like this on the internet anymore where some loony may get a hold of it and try something stupid?
When I was in college, I remember sitting on a dock on the hudson and some freshmen came down, stipped down to their undies and jumped in, got out, got dressed and walked off.
I think I still have nightmares about them. Ewww...
The point is to show what state-sponsored terrorism over a prolonged time versus a grass roots terrorist system reflects in bodycount. It reflects quite clearly that one inflicts far more causalities when they use m-16s against rock throwers and bombs against snipers.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
After looking at the picture of the sub, it makes me think that is the kinda stuff Gulianni worked so hard to get out of times square.
Uhhhhh.....disturbing.
Expect this aqueduct to collapse about 5 seconds after they shut down the water flow. Given the age and status of this thing, it's guaranteed.
Right now, the only thing keeping it together is the WATER PRESSURE pushing on the sides to get out... It's holding the whole shebang together... And leaking out around the edges... Some goes around pieces entirely, some create sinkholes, some create underground rivers, etc...
As soon as you stop the pressure, those pieces will fall out...
How do I know this? Because it happened right here in Chicago a few years ago... In our zeal to kill off those pesky zebra mussels, some mental giant decided to shut off the water flow, thread a line that would feed chlorine to the intake to kill the mussels, and then kick the water back on...
Problem? Yeah. This particular tunnel was built a zillion years ago OUT OF BRICK. Ummm, the mortar was long since gone. Held together by sand, dirt, clay, some mud, and oh yeah, water pressure! Remove the water pressure, and ummm, well, the thing collapsed... Right under a part of Lake Shore Drive - which then had to be closed off, ripped out, reconstructed, filled in, repaved - all in the middle of the fucking summer... oh joy, it was lovely in traffic...
Last I heard, the engineering firm didn't get paid, got sued, and the engineer that came up with the idea lives in a box under Lower Wacker Drive where he belongs...
Even if the thing in NY is made of concrete - it's apparently in such wonderful shape as to be leaking and it's likely to collapse.
I'd say that the best thing to do is to take the little remote sub through there and see what's what... Then reinforce those areas that are in poor shape somehow... Keep digging out the new tunnel, and when it's 100% up and online, take this sucker off-line and fix it right - maybe relining the whole thing... The one thing you can bet on is that it's going to be a clusterfuck of problems from all the leaking - all those spots will have to be identified and addressed before it can be brought back to life...
Best of luck...
You know, it might just be because I'm from the UK, but I'm having a very hard time working out why they are building a tunnel to pump more water into New York.
I took a look at the map of NY/NJ here : http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/wsmaps.html and the surrounding area showing the aqueducts and I noticed this big, jagged blue line running vertically down the map. At first I thought this might be a misprint, or an ink leak, but it's labelled 'Hudson River'.
Imagine a river! A huge, great big river running right to New York city - someone had better tell the mayor quick, because apparently no-one else has noticed it yet.
For those of you not clued up, rivers are natures viaducts, they transport huge amounts of water from place to place, always going downhill - I'm willing to bet that Hudson river has more than enough drinking water in it for the whole of New York! For those of you who are sceptical about this whole point, there's also an ocean nearby - far nearer than the reservoirs - now you don't get much more water in one place than an ocean!
...but will there be a miniature Raquel Welch on board ?
13 feet = 4 meters
1 gallon = 3.8 liters
sorry we can't all agree on a universal standard....
Cool, arm that puppy and we can finally kill off the menacing albino alligators!
PegQuin--I've got a sneakin' suspicion
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> 13 feet = 4 metres
> 1 gallon = 3.8 litres
I wasn't really asking what those strange units mean.
> sorry we can't all agree on a universal standard...
We can. We did. All countries in the world signed the agreement to ban non-metric units. Even the USA.
Over here, we used non-metric units too, but as a consequence of this international agreement they were outlawed.
There are only three countries in the world that cannot be trusted: the USA, Belize, and one country of which I forgot the name.
Nah. You have no math skills. The backups combined can put through 500 million gallons/day. The city as a whole uses 750 million gallons/day. I think we can shut off the car washes and not die of thirst on 50 gallons/day/person. ;p
Lets say you reverse-flow some of the testing pipes.
Yes, lets. The flow pressure is enough to feed buildings 12 stories high without pumping. Good luck reverse flowing against that kind of presure over a billion gallons/day.
And go ahead and dump in and infect whatever you want... the water is chlorinated/flourinated and everything outside and in between after all of your happy little maintenance hatches. What, you think we drink the fish poop too?
Oh yeah. And come up with your own insults at the end. I've come to believe my six month old puppy is far brighter than you. =)
haha, decent roads and New Jersey in the same sentence? Try driving outside of your own state for once and you'll see how shitty NJ's raods are.
When was the last time you went into a service station and got free air to fill your tires with?
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
But how is it armed? What will it do if it encounters Chüds?
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
For those of you not clued up, the ocean is salty! Yes, I know that's amazing, but it's absolutely true.
...now, what do you suppose they have to do to the ocean to make it drinkable? That's right, desalination!
...and how do you think they desalinate large volumes of water? Yes, with spectacularly huge quantities of electrical power! The kind of power that NYC doesn't really have to spare!
Woooo! Here's a clue for the UK twits in the audience: go take a drink out of the Thames, and let us know how you like it before you go suggesting anybody use the Hudson for a drinking source.
Actually, New Jersey has one of the largest water reserves in the world. Under the Pine Lands of South Jersey sits the Kirkwood-Cohansey aquifer. It's capacity is roughly 17 trillion gallons, but due to overuse some of the higher levels of the aquifer are suffering from salt water intrusion, especially in Cape May (That pointy part on the bottom of NJ). Even with this problem, the aquifer is still a viable resource for Southern New Jersey's drinking water - and it isn't terribly affected by droughts. A semi-government run organization called the Pinelands Commission oversees development in the 1.1 million acre area. Although this organization has taken some flack lately, it has been successful overall in limiting development in the most ecologically sensitve areas of the Pine Lands. While protecting wetlands gives little tadpoles a home, it also protects valuable spots for the water to be absorbed into the aquifer. How is this valuable for New York? It isn't! Because of its location, it isn't even valuable for North Jersey. New Jersey doesn't allow the export of its water to other states - but - the Army Core of Engineers is rumored to have a right of way from New York City 90 miles south to the Pine Lands. Is it true?
What where wetlands called before they were called wetlands?
Swamps.
Poughkeepsie has been getting all of its water from the Hudson for over a century. The water is meticulously checked for every contaminant they can think of. No problems. Ever. The Hudson gets a bigger dis than it deserves I think.
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Viaducts?
Via - ducts?
Via-no-chicken?
Via-no-horse?