Sony Intentionally Crashes Customers' Computers

Uttles writes "According to Yahoo!, Celine Dion's latest CD will not play in computer drives. In fact: 'Should the consumer try to play Dion's CD on a PC or Macintosh, the computer likely will crash.' How is this legal?" Since Sony admits that their product is designed to cause damage to your computer system, almost anyone would likely have a good lawsuit against them. Attention Celine Dion and all musicians: crashing your fans' computers is not a good business practice. No matter what your agent says.

Comments

Celine Dion, eh?

[Roosey]

Are you sure it's the protection? I would say that the computers they tested it on had good taste, that's all. :)

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Salamander]

That can't be it. A computer with good taste would eject the disk immediately, without even thinking about playing it.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[c4tp]

Seriously, I don't think this music needs copy protection. The people who listen to it are NOT the type who pirate a lot of music, and I can't imagine more than 1 person would want the CD. But that's still no reason to crash the 12 year old girl's machine!

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[mtrupe]

Actually, I hope and pray my computer would crash fast enough, so I wouldn't have to hear the first note of her crappy "music."

And thank God Windows crashes faster than it boots up.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[negativethirsty]

...and a beowulf cluster would smash it to bits first then eject it immediately for you.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[JLouder]

I'm mostly into prog metal/heavy metal, but i love listening to Celine Dion. If that makes you think less of me, fine, but don't generalize too much

Yes, it actually does make me think less of you.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[BJH]

'Hi, I'm a thief, but don't let that make you think any less of me.'

Jeez...

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Wakko Warner]

A computer with good taste would eject the disk immediately, without even thinking about playing it.


...hopefully, it would do so at a high enough rate of speed (and the proper trajectory) to knock some sense into the user.

- A.P.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Stackis]

You love listening to Celine Dion?

Dude what the f*&% is wrong w/you?

I think I'm going to puke

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[BJH]

You buy music after checking it out on a P2P network, right? I'm fine with that. I do it myself. The original poster said that he has 15GB of music, of which less than one-fifth was actually bought and paid for. That's just being dishonest.

Unless I completely misunderstood you and your argument is actually that copying music and giving nothing at all to the artist is morally better than buying the music and giving something (admittedly, a small amount) to the artist. In which case, you're deluding yourself.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[macshit]

Well, you never know.

Perhaps, as a child, he spent many happy hours in front of a TV with a broken flyback transformer.

So now he gets a warm nostalgic feeling whenever he hears a high-pitched whine...

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[jbn-o]

'Hi, I'm a thief, but don't let that make you think any less of me.'

Unauthorized duplication is not stealing, no matter how many people fail to recognize the difference between physical property and intangible concepts. Please don't refer to it as such. What johnnythan admitted to is illegal, but you'll lose any rational argument about copyright if you insist on talking about copyright infringement as theft of property. Siva Vaidhyanathan has written an excellent book called "Copyrights and Copywrongs" in which he explains the dangers of thinking about copyright as property law. I highly recommend it because it is easily read, concise, and very well researched.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Malcontent]

Morality has no place in America. We are a capitalist society.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Jeremi]

I know the legal difference between copyright infringement and theft,
thank you very much. I'm talking about the moral implications of what he was saying

On the other hand, morality does change and evolve over time. What was considered immoral then is considered moral now, or vice versa. I submit that with the advent of personal computers and the Internet, the moral status of not-for-profit copyright infringment needs to be revisited.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Kymermosst]

How about, say, theft of income? What if I just say, took an hours worth of your pay away? Suppose you make burgers for a living and your boss makes you pay out of your paycheck for every one that was stolen, and I took a few?

It may not be theft of physical property, but it is still theft, and inherently wrong. Just like if I painted a painting, and you made a copy of it without my permission. And that painting IS a physical object.

Don't try this bullshit about what is "tangible" or not. The simple fact is, the result of my thinking is MY property, and I have a right to control what happens to it, be it placing it into the public domain, or selling copies of it to make money.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Jeremi]

You're getting something for nothing, no matter what way you look at it

It's not inherently immoral to get something for nothing. Every time you inhale, you're getting air for nothing... and nobody considers breathing to be immoral.

Look at it this way: if computers, the Internet, mp3 players, etc had been invented 5,000 years ago, and were available/affordable to anyone who wanted one... if everyone in the world had had the ability to send and receive digital information to everyone else since time immemorial, would there even be the concept of copyright infringment? Quite the contrary, I think -- instead, the right to copy files would be protected as a 'natural God-given right'.

The idea that Joe may dictate what Sue does, with her own equipment, in the privacy of her own home, is merely an artifact, a historical accident, that will fade away as digital communications become as natural as breathing. Certainly unrestricted digital copying can give content creators the short end of the stick under the current system, but the current system is also an artifact of the now-obsolete physical/industrial model of content distribution. It too will fade away, and (presumably) be replaced with another system, one that better reflects the new realities.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[drDugan]

one-fifth was actually bought and paid for. That's just being dishonest.


Why? When did we all get the assumptions that

1) ALL music someone has is something they SHOULD HAVE to pay for?

2) its OK to follow laws that do not make any sense, especially if they are bought outright by big corporations in a successful attempt to keep themselves in control of YOU.

My answers:

1) when the only music you CAN get legally is that which you can get by paying for it.

2) we all stopped thinking for ourselves.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[GTRacer]

...i love listening to Celine Dion. If that makes you think less of me, fine...

I was still cool at this point. Heck, I even like Celine, in small doses. BUT:

I got me a car, it's as big as a whale and it's about to set sail!

I have to draw the line at Celine AND the B-52s. Sorry.

P.S. 12 gigs of ripped-off music? Damn!

GTRacer
- Well, then again, about 10% of what I have may or may not be illicit

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Grape Shasta]

How about, say, theft of income? What if I just say, took an hours worth of your pay away? Suppose you make burgers for a living and your boss makes you pay out of your paycheck for every one that was stolen, and I took a few?

Your analogy falls very short. When I work for an employer, we have a contract - I do what they say, they give me money. Now if my contract specifies that I don't get paid if someone steals burgers, well that's a pretty shitty contract. But you still didn't steal from me, you stole the burgers from my employer. I'll be pissed, but just because you're a jerk and I have a bad contract.

But now, with regards to intellectual "property", say you wrote a song and recorded it. My friend gives you money for a CD with the song on it. Then I copy my friend's CD and give you no money. Why is that inherently wrong? Did we ever sign a contract saying that I would pay you to record the song?

Yes, you lost the chance to make money by selling me a copy of your song. But what kind of way to make money is that? I pay you money for something I can get for free? It makes no difference where the song came from to me - it was there, a bunch of bits on a shiny disc, and I copied it.

If you want to make some money, go get a freaking job. Or put on a concert and charge admission. But don't try to tax me for some transaction which didn't involve you. How can you say I've stolen? How many less songs do you have now that you didn't have before?

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[frank_adrian314159]

You're getting something for nothing, no matter what way you look at it...

You're talking about Celine Dion, for Christ's sake. I'd say that's getting NOTHING for nothing.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[NanoGator]

"The original poster said that he has 15GB of music, of which less than one-fifth was actually bought and paid for. That's just being dishonest."

And how exactly is he supposed to pay for it? If I download Wil Smith singing the 'Men In Black' song, how am I supposed to pay for that? Buy the CD? Uh, no. That is *one* song. The soundtrack to Men in Black is a collection of songs.

If somebody doesnt pay for their MP3 collection, it's because the RIAA isn't providing a means to pay for it. If the RIAA would say 'here is what each song is worth', and provided that each song is fairly priced (I.e. the sum of all the songs on the CD shall not exceed the cost of the CD.), then I'd be happy to send a list of what I have to the RIAA and recieve a bill.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[civilizedINTENSITY]

Theft wasn't mentioned. You assume facts not in evidence.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[civilizedINTENSITY]

I thought we were a democratic republic...

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[blair1q]

Here's a picture of Celine Dion attempting to eject a disk.

And here she is making modem tones while trying to connect to /.

--Blair

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[MrResistor]

Artists don't make money from album sales. If you want to support the artist go see them in concert, and buy a t-shirt while you're there.

You aren't making sense

[ChazeFroy]

Since Sony admits that their product is designed to cause damage to your computer system, almost anyone would likely have a good lawsuit against them.

How would that make a good lawsuit? Seems to me that Sony is covering its ass by letting the consumer know up front, which would make the lawsuit more difficult.

Re:You aren't making sense

[xTina]

What are they telling people? That it won't play on PCs. Or that it will crash their computers, potentially causing loss of important data? I remember, when those audio cds with a video/data track as track one came up, they had a huge warning label telling you not to try to play track one because it might damage your stereo ... And .. what would they say if your roommate takes the CD (that happens to lie on your desk without case and booklet) and tries to play it on the computer you both own ... crashing it ... causing you to loose all data of your term paper one day before it's due ... oh, wait ... they'll sue YOU ... letting your roommate listen to music he hasn't paid for ;-)

Re:You aren't making sense

[cowboy junkie]

I think it's like an SNL fake commercial I saw a while back where they have 'Pet Chow Rat Poison' (Pet Chow is the name of the guy selling it) in a big dog food bag with a dog on the front (his dog) with 'rat poison' in tiny letters. The rat poison also looks and smells like dog food.

If you are selling something that looks like a cd and is packaged like a cd, sold with other cd's, but doesn't act like a cd, I think you are treading on pretty thin ice...

Re:You aren't making sense

[Amazing Quantum Man]

So what if I tried to play this on my Sun workstation? Does it say anything about them?

Re:You aren't making sense

[Carlos Laviola]

This is not an audio CD. It cannot bear the logo that all standard, red-book-following CDs do. You may call it anything but an audio CD.

--

Re:You aren't making sense

[Sancho]

And .. what would they say if your roommate takes the CD (that happens to lie on your desk without case and booklet) and tries to play it on the computer you both own ... crashing it ... causing you to loose all data of your term paper one day before it's due ... oh, wait ... they'll sue YOU ... letting your roommate listen to music he hasn't paid for ;-)

Read the article. The same label is on the CD itself, too.

Re:You aren't making sense

[epsalon]

OK, So what happens if the roomate takes your backup copy of the CD (it's been shown elsewhere in this article the CD is in fact copyable)?

Re:You aren't making sense

[MsGeek]

Linux baby...Linux. This *IS* /., after all...

Re:You aren't making sense

[jovlinger]

Programs (and hence PCs and operating systems) MUST accept illformed inputs. When your PC crashes because you tried to read a CD, well, the CD sucks, but so does your computer.

Reminds me of the polish virus "hey! I'm a virus. Send me to everyone you know!". Now, only an idiot would fall for that, and only a peice-of-crap computer will crash on ill-formed input.

Re:You aren't making sense

[sveinhal]

According to the How it works-page on the official Key2Audio-site, this copy-protection actually don't compomise the red book-standard:

The high reliability is due to the fact that the audio part fully complies with the Red Book standard - not a single bit is changed in the audio data stream - i.e.: no uncorrectable errors are used to protect the audio data. This gives the highest audio quality for your protected music.

sveinhal

Re:You aren't making sense

[Svartalf]

But, all CD-ROM drives are REDBOOK compliant (they also work as audio players, hence the little analog jack in the BACK of the drive on most drives.)- you're not using ISO-9660 in any case for an audio disc, ISO-9660 is a data-only specification (I can tell you've never tried to do anything fancy with a CD-ROM drive before, or you'd KNOW that distinction...).

They're doing something that a straight-up audio player ignores. Now, whether or not a player is REDBOOK compliant or not is up for debate (I'd hold that most of the audio players, not needing the full spec (because they don't display session info, etc.) aren't impacted by it, but since computer players use all the bells and whistles, they get borked by this stuff. Now, I think they're actually claiming that the data is REDBOOK compliant but they're altering the other info. This means the discs aren't REDBOOK compliant because the computer players are conforming to the spec also.

Re:You aren't making sense

[Amazing Quantum Man]

Except that an intel Linux box is still technically a "PC". Therefore, if I run it on my Linux box and it trashes it, Sony's covered. That's why I specifically said Sun.

Damn.

[sllort]

Your heart may go on, but your computer won't.

Re:Proventing Suicide

[Dimensio]

Heh.

I'm tempted to get it and trying to rip the tracks with as high a quality as possible...and then e-mail them individually (as WAV files, not MP3s) to Sony.

i wonder...

[BigBir3d]

...wtf is sony thinking? undermining another sector of their business??

Crashing Computers

[nick_davison]

Crashing computers are nothing. Put Celine's CD in to your car while you're driving and it'll make you crash that too, just to end the god awful experience.
</all too obvious crashing joke>

The users were warned!

[Jucius Maximus]

Quoth the article:

"According to a spokeswoman for Sony Music Entertainment, it is clearly stated on the front of the booklet and on the back of the jewel box that the CD "will not play on a PC or a Mac" in the language of the country in which it is sold. Besides those notices, which the spokeswoman said were readable before purchase, the disc itself bears the same warning."

And physical damage to the computer is supposedly in the firmware of the drives (on macs)

"On the German discussion boards at MacFixit, Mac users claim that the CD will not eject using normal methods and that the intentional corruption of the disc's session data could unpredictably affect the drive's firmware." But Sony said that the firmware problem is not real.

Please keep in mind that I'm not saying that any of this is right or ethical. It's just that the post doen't completely represent what happenned (and I am sure that article has some shortcomings in the 'truth dapartment' too.)

Re:The users were warned!

[elmegil]

All I can say is, if a piece of media with random data on it can corrupt the firmware, that's a pretty lousy drive you've got there. Does that justify Sony's action? Of course not.

Re:The users were warned!

[dattaway]

It may have a warning on the jewel box and the booklet, but often CD's are innocently left on the desk.

Wouldn't it be an opportunity for sabotage to leave the bare CD in the server room for some techie to slide it in while troubleshooting something? I can see the phone lines start to flash...

Re:The users were warned!

[perky]

but if you have mede it as far as the server room you may as well wire up the cabinet door to the mains, and replace the terminals with model three waffle irons.

Re:The users were warned!

[Joe Decker]

clearly stated on the front of the booklet and on the back of the jewel box that the CD "will not play on a PC or a Mac

Agreed. I will note, however, that if the Dion product doesn't play in a PC, it's because it isn't a Compact Disc (tm), and, as Phillips has pointed out, is fradulent on that grounds.

Re:The users were warned!

[Technician]

I think it is funny that the inventor of the Betamax wins a case for fair use in a case where it was accused of being an infringement device. Now they are trying to produce content that disables the fair use they fought for. If you copy the content they have the DMCA to use. (maybe they don't get the DMCA protection because they are a Japanese company not a US company.)

Out of retirement

[Hadean]

Maybe someone in Sony secretly didn't want her to come out of retirement (ugh), so they used her as a test case, hoping this'll push her right back in thanks to all of the bad publicity she'll get... or maybe that's just my hope?

Re:Proventing Suicide

[shoptroll]

Actually, I just showed this to one of my roomates and he said he hasn't had a problem with it...

-shoptroll

What about Autorun.ini?

[NanoGator]

If Sony wanted to be obnoxious, they could write a program that starts when Autorun is activated. It could cover the screen and say "YOU CANT PLAY THIS HERE!!!", and then send a signal to the CD ROM to eject the CD. When somebody puts it back in... and so on.

Yes, this would be easy to get around. But I'd far prefer that then causing a BSOD.

Re:What about Autorun.ini?

[NanoGator]

"how is preventing me to listen to a CD an incentive to buy it????"

Makes you wonder, doesn't it? It'd be like Coca Cola making their drinks evaporate moments after they leave the can, that way nobody could pour the coke into a cup and sell it to somebody else.

Re:What about Autorun.ini?

[nachoman]

It's called hold down shift while the CD spins up... I never use autorun.

Re:What about Autorun.ini?

[shren]

That's a brilliant idea! I'm writing my patent application now.

Poor kernel hackers

[red5]

Now some poor kernel hackers will have to listen to this music so they can code a workaround for the linux kernel.
I feel there pain. Just rember this is for the greater good. :)

Re:Poor kernel hackers

[red5]

Aye but if we "get the ball rolling now" so to speek.
By the time a cd worth putting on my iPOD comes out It will all be ready.

Re:Poor kernel hackers

[ChadN]

Though horrible, this reverse-engineering experience will be much needed for the day when Sony finally deploys "Snow Crash" virus technology in Everquest.

A brain that can stand up to massive amounts of Celine Dion music (thanks a LOT, James Cameron...), might have a chance at avoiding meltdown.

Re:Poor kernel hackers

[red5]

[*]I will not elaborate on what a "good" band is because no matter what I say, I will be trolled to death.

My personal strategy is to use the most abscure band I can think of.
How many people know who "Dub Pistols " are.

/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Drakino]

Ohh, another confirmed, mass distributed copy protected CD. Time to make another round and buy these, open them, and return them. Remember, thats the best way to get the message across, at their cost. And if the stores eat the cost, they will get upset with Sony, and end up solving it as well.

http://riocar.org/cd/ for the 7 I have returned to date.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[red5]

Exept they have a BIG warning sticker on the front.
If I was the store manager I would not exept returns on this cd.
"Sorry pal you were the idot that bought Celien Deion".

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[jgerman]

You're not likely to get very far doing the "buy,open,return" scheme here. The cd is labelled, that's only a protest of un-labelled cd's.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Drakino]

Well if they are still calling it a CD and not a shiny disc with music, my job is not done. My CD Rom has a CD-Audio logo, and if that CD package has a CD Audio logo on it anywhere, it means they are supposed to work togther. My biggest complaint with copy protection is the mislabling of these shiny discs.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[zmooc]

They're not allowed to use the CD logo. At least not for a few more years. The logo is copyrighted by Philips and can only be used for discs that conform to the CD standard. These discs don't. So let's call them CD's. Crashing Discs.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[gnovos]

Just as long as they don't have the CD logo... if they do, then which one do you, as the consumer, believe? The CD logo that says it will work in your computer, or the Sony one that says it won't? Sounds like fradulent marketing to me.

Imagine :

"Malboro Advisory: These cigarettes will not cause cancer!"
"Surgeon Genral's warning: these will cause cancer."

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[ender81b]

Argh. f**ck sony:

"And it won't eject properly, but that's just because the computer has crashed."

And you won't be able to eat properly, but that's just because my foot is so far up your ass that I'm playing footsie with your tonsils.

Arghhhhhhhhhhhh.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

That's not a copyright (or a patent) that's a trademark. Trademarks NEVER expire, unless the compnay fails to renew it or allows infringment without taking action.

Ask a lawyer for legal advice.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Shiny Metal S.]

Yes, I think we should protest by not buying that CD. Oh, wait a minute...

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Anonymous DWord]

It's a logo that's licensed from Philips, with the expectation that a disc with that logo conforms to standards. These don't. Ergo, they shouldn't have the logo.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[red5]

Okay got me there.
Now do we actualy know if these cds have the logos?

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

Philips still has a TRADEMARK on their logo. That does NOT expire. Even though their patents will.

So yes, after 2003 they can't sue for patent infringement, only for trademark infringement (whereas now they can do both).

Trademark infringement can even carry criminal penalties.

You'll never be able to independantly sell a "Whopper" hamburger - because of the trademark. Same deal here.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[shepd]

>Well exept the cd-logo is a LOGO and not a label that says anything.

No, the CD logo is a Trademark, and carries the same weight as a UL or CSA Trademark. It means that this product meets all the licensing requirements of the people owning that logo. With the CD logo that means it is playable in a computer.

More importantly, even if this CD bears no logo but is placed in with other CDs that clearly do, and under a sign that says "CD -- XYZ/Various", it will be VERY difficult for the store to get themselves out of trouble with a judge. Its like having a "new car" section at a dealership and sticking a used car in that section. If you buy that car and the dealer doesn't say "Oh, we made a mistake, that isn't a new car" first then they are practicing deceptive advertising (probably a felony).

The minute that isn't true, watch out for knockoff electronics killing people that still have a CSA/UL logo in the "safety products" aisle.

>I dont think you could bring it back saying "Man it hade the little USA flag on the back. I though it was in english".

I bet you could when you point out the sign above the rack of CDs that says "English CDs". Now, if a music shop would rather label their CD section with "Shiny round music discs" than "CDs" they are welcome too. Until then, they are attempting to deceive me into purchasing a clearly inferior product.

Besides, any smart manager would realize that having someone shouting "You are selling me fake CDs that can't be played in standard equipment" would scare away more than enough business. And no, you can't just tell someone to leave and expect them to. And you can't force them out. You need to wait, and wait, and wait for the good 1/2 hour or two it takes for the police to respond to the least important of calls -- tresspassing. Or at least Cops says so. :-)

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Anonymous DWord]

Heck no! How could we spout flaming rhetoric if we knew that? Slashdot would collapse!

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Wakko Warner]

The sticker's on the wrapper. The wrapper gets thrown away when you open the CD. Why wouldn't they believe you when you said your new CD had no sticker on it?

Posts like this should not get +5s.

- A.P.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[gnovos]

The logo has a meaning, though. It would be like sticking "FDA Approved" stickers on untested drugs.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[red5]

Now you have a case.
If you used a credit card call them up and contest the charges.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[ShawnH]

I don't see a "BIG warning sticker on the front,"
only a small label that says (I think) "Will not play on PC/MAC"

I think Sony is blowing some smoke.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[red5]

The sticker is most likely on the plastic wrap and therefore not in the shot.
But if its an online purchase then a label on the pack is useless. IMO if they don't tell you in the text on the page it doesn't count.
If in a retail store it's not a label on the front. I think it's also not enough.
I do think these ant-fare use systems are wrong and it vexes me that it is illegal to break them.
But if you were warned then you should know better.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Anonymous DWord]

Why? Because of this:

According to a spokeswoman for Sony Music Entertainment, it is clearly stated on the front of the booklet and on the back of the jewel box that the CD "will not play on a PC or a Mac" in the language of the country in which it is sold. Besides those notices, which the spokeswoman said were readable before purchase, the disc itself bears the same warning.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Svartalf]

Then it should play in a Yellowbook compliant drive because the compliance is a built-upon, not a replacement. If it's truely compliant, it shouldn't do what's being claimed of them- it might play okay in normal drives, but that doesn't make it compliant.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[grahamm]

Not only is it on the wrapper, it is printed on the case (and on the CD)

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[grahamm]

Luckily for Sony, the Celine Dion "CD" does not not carry the CDDA logo on either the case or on the "CD".

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[red5]

That's the tricky bit: The logo is imprinted on the inside of the cover (in the bit of plastic that has the depression where the CD sits). So you need to open it to check, that's why Philips want warning labels/stickers on the outside - in addition to removal of the logo.

Hmmmm. let me check so cds...
Some of them do and some don't.
Moby - Play has the logo on the back of the box.
The Blade 2 soundtrack does too.
Liquid Todd - Solid State dose not. Not even on the cd weird.

Now remember The fast and the furious soundtrack part 2 (you know the one that had copy protection).
It dose not have the logo on the back. Also the waring sticker is on the back not the front and it's placed on the insert under the plastic. You have to rip apart the case to get to it.
This cd does have the logo on the cd it's self however.

They all do have it eched on the inside of the case like you said.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[CaseyB]

It is in the shot, you can see it on the lower right of the backside image. It's very small, no one that wasn't looking for it specifically would notice it.

Swan Song....

[dghcasp]

<celene> And I.....
will always....
love yoooooouuuuugggghhfdbfdshjk^Y$&#^^&(*@!(*)#&@!*(
Blue screen of death

I like it. I think Microsoft should license Celene's music to play as your computer crashes... Nice and mournful...

Re:Swan Song....

[jgerman]

Isn't that Whitney Houston?

Re:Swan Song....

[SmileyBen]

Erm... wasn't that Whitney Houston?

Re:Swan Song....

[Amazing Quantum Man]

I know that my heart will g;oliu90875109ykljhliudyoa87fylkfjhalskd v8o317698 kjhflu108 76

BSOD

Re:Swan Song....

[Dirtside]

How did you know it was Whitney Houston? :)

Re:Swan Song....

[ink]

Whitney Houston:Celine Dion | Linux:BSD

Re:Swan Song....

[jgerman]

Yeah I knew it ;) Couldn't tell you a single Celine song, except for the thing from Titanic, couldn't tell ya how it goes or the title though ;)

Re:Swan Song....

[Graspee_Leemoor]

Flamebait?!?

Whooo, I can see those Umbrella Corp scientists got mod points!

graspee

How fast will it be ripped?

[chill]

Hours? Minutes? Seconds? It shouldn't take long for the entire CD to appear on the Gnutella network and other P-2-P sessions. In fact, it will probably be one of the most ripped CDs of all time, just out of spite -- not that anyone wants to listen to it.

Re:How fast will it be ripped?

[shird]

Correct, it is already available on the fast track network (Kazaa et al.). As most people get their pirated music from global P2P networks rather than from friends ripping CDs for them, the fact that even ONE copy gets onto a file sharing system, all their efforts at copy-protection are wasted. It just becomes a pain for people who want to listen to their CDs through their computer, or rip it to MP3s for their own personal use, eg. to transfer it to their portable MP3 player etc.

I'm curious as to how those newer CD players which can play MP3s from a CD as well as normal CDs handle this, because surely they would need to read a CD in the same way as a CD drive in order to read the MP3s?

Re:How fast will it be ripped?

[suwain_2]

This is similar to your point, but ventures into different topics...

Essentially, what Sony is doing is very bad for them. They, unintentionally, are essentially promoting the use of Gnutella, etc. If you buy the CD, you can legally download MP3s (though the record companies seem to dislike this concept...?). But after buying a couple 'bad' CDs, why bother? What's the point of buying a CD just so you can download things off Gnutella?

I think Sony, without realizing it, is really shooting themselves in the foot on this one. People are just going to stop buying CDs, and use Gnutella instead. Not only is it cheaper, but it will work better, and they don't risk damaging their computer. (Although I am still a bit skeptical of physical damage claims...)

Re:How fast will it be ripped?

[crisco]

Well over a thousand hits on WinMX, including the entire album zipped up and assorted bitrates over 128.

The proverbial cat isn't so easy to put back in the bag, is it Sony?

Re:How fast will it be ripped?

[Balorn]

Of course, they will use this to their advantage.

I can see it now... "See, even our most advanced content protection, and people are still stealing it! We need laws to make this impossible, not just illegal, or we will be driven out of business, and then the world will be completely devoid of music/movies/etc since we won't be able to provide our invaluable services any more! Boo hoo!"

Re:How fast will it be ripped?

[Sancho]

Stop propogating that myth, it has absolutely no basis in law.

Re:How fast will it be ripped?

[psamuels]

"See, even our most advanced content protection, and people are still stealing it! We need laws to make this impossible, not just illegal [...]

Well it should be "We need laws to make this illegal, not just illegal ... oh wait ..."

Re:How fast will it be ripped?

[Bastian]

The bastards won't be able to keep me from ripping my CD's to turn them into MP3's until they break into my home to disable the headphone jack on my stereo and the microphone jack on my computer.

How stupid do they think we are?

Intentional Harm

[Boulder Geek]

If Sony tried to market this thing in the U.S. they would probably run afoul of state and Federal Consumer Protection Agencies. In spite of what Sony may claim, any sudden crash of a computer has the potential to cause irrepairable harm. I seriously doubt that any company can dodge responsibility with a printed disclaimer. Which of course explains why this copy protection (ha!) is only being sold in Europe. In the litigious U.S. they would very likely get into trouble very quickly.

Re:Intentional Harm

[MtViewGuy]

The very fact that the Sony protection scheme could actually render a optical (CD-RW or DVD Recordable) drive on a Macintosh useless is grounds for a major lawsuit against Sony by Apple.

Making discs difficult to copy is one thing, but damaging computer hardware is quite something else.

What we need here...

[Jucius Maximus]

What we need here is a petition that states that we will avoid buying this CD at all costs and will warn our friends to do the same because it is not standard Red Book Audio and will not play in and possibly damage our computers so it can be sent to Sony and used for posterity.

Once the marketers get it into their heads that Crippled CDs == Angry Customers == Lower Sales then things might start going the other way.

Re:cdparanoia

[red5]

Actualy the cdparanoia idea is even MORE ironic in that cdparanoia is a ripper and not a player.
You have to rip the tracks to play them now THATS ironic.

Clone CD can copy it

[PineGreen]

For how to copy it and more information see here

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

You realize that you may have just broken the law, right?

Not that I think it should be illegal, but you could possibly get sued/imprisoned for trafficking (you helped people find it) in a circumvention device or process.

The fact that the above comment may be illegal should definitely motivate you to fight CBDTPA and fight to have the DMCA repealed/declared unconstitutional.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

Considering he has a .uk website, I don't think he's exactly waiting for the FBI to kick his door in ;)

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[MattJ]

And *you* may have just broken the same law, perhaps, by using the phrase "fight CBDTPA" in your comment tied to his comment. You have created a future link in Google between "fight CBDTPA", his post, and, implicitly, the allegedly infringing software. You're helping people find software that "fights" (circumvents) these laws.

Of course, I've now done the same thing.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[dsb3]

I wonder if the moderators who gave it a +1 are also guilty. For that matter, is this comment illegal since it may be construed as giving more weight (thus more visibility) to the original statement?

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[nolife]

That brings up an interesting point.
How could a product that existed in time before this method of copy prevention become illegal? Sounds to me like Sony is using a method that could already by bypassed even before it was ever even used. This whole computer cd player prevention doesnt seem to be a "protection" method anyway. I view encryption or protection as a higher level technology designed to keep people out. Not a design that uses existing equipment anomalies in hopes that they will not be able to read it. What if they put the output level redicuously low on the cd and you could barely hear it unless you used a special Sony addon to your headphone jack? Would connecting your own extra amplifier be a violation or a circumvention device? They are using a method of prevention that violates a generally accepted standard, not an encryption scheme.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Monkeyman334]

No, he cannot be sued/imprisoned for the link. Sony would make the claim to Slashot, and it's their responsibility to take it down. If Slashdot doesn't comply in X days, then maybe someone can get their asses sued.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

You are being logical. Don't expect the courts to do likewise (especially in the Southern District of New York).

Judge Kaplan, for example, very likely will treat this as a "technical measure which controls access to a work".

The DMCA doesn't specifically say it has to be encryption. It states:

"a technological measure 'effectively controls access to a work' if the measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, requires the application of information, or a process or a treatment, with the authority of the copyright owner, to gain access to the work."

One could say that a consumer CD doing interpolation over bad sectors is sufficient to qualify for the above, and is done with authority of the copyright owner, but that hacking a CD ripper to do the same isn't.

The DMCA doesn't say you can't abuse pre-existing technology to "protect" content.

Look at Macrovision - it originally worked (and it some cases still does) by confusing automatic gain control circuits in consumer VCRs. The DMCA contains a mandate that a VCR "respect" Macrovision, not only disallowing modifications to VCRs to avoid that design shortcoming, but actually mandating that VCRs that would by default work even in the face of Macrovision encoding be hobbled so they do not.

If I made VCRs I would have it record this in text on the tape. "RECORDING PROHIBITED BY FEDERAL LAW (Digital Millenium Copyright Act, 17 USC 1201(k)).

Let the consumer know exactly why it does not work, and give him the information needed to fix it. Even though the fix is more political than technical.

P.S. Your examples could be considered circumvention and probably would in at least one judge's courtroom.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

DMCA takedown provisions (basically ask for something to be taken down - no court involved - and the site has to or else loses "safe harbor" status) are only for cases of suspected infringement, not circumvention.

You can't use DMCA takedown provisions to get DeCSS taken down, you could however use them to get an "illegal" MP3 taken off a web server.

Of course there are other (legal) ways they can get something like DeCSS taken down (but they require court action - or at least threats of lawsuits).

I wouldn't be surprised if the DMCA takedown provisions were eventually extended to circumvention devices and information.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[DarkEdgeX]

It's interesting that the site you linked to doesn't have a way to actually rip the audio to MP3/OGG/etc though. When the question of perfect digital to digital copies is mentioned, the site says it's not possible. I wonder if CloneCD'd copies will exhibit the same problem, or if that's potentially a way around the issue/bug (Sony seems convinced that the technique they use is written to an area that CD-R drives can't access/read and/or write, so I'm guessing that data isn't cloned by CloneCD).

I mean, obviously it's been ripped somehow (read: the various posts elsewhere, citing hits on Kazaa, Gnutella, etc), but I wonder if those were analog to digital rips, or if they were real bona fide digital copies to MP3/etc.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[radish]

Seeing as mr PineGreen's URL indicates a UK domain, the DMCA does not apply, ergo he's very unlikely to have broken the law in the manner you suggest. The world != the USA.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Alsee]

have the DMCA repealed/declared unconstitutional.
--
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!

Ouch, sometimes Sig's match a post perfectly, and sometimed they clash really really badly.

-

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Rogerborg]

• How could a product that existed in time before this method of copy prevention become illegal?

The DMCA doesn't make possession of a circumvention device illegal, nor does it even prevent you from using it (that's copyright law). What the DMCA makes illegal is the act of creating the device, or obtaining or providing a copy of it, or telling anyone how to obtain it. It's exactly like making it legal to own and to use lockpicks (on your own lock or with invitation), but making it illegal to make, sell, buy or talk about lockpicks. No, it does't make sense, but, hey, this is a bought bill, not one arrived at through debate and consensus.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Rogerborg]

• Seeing as mr PineGreen's URL indicates a UK domain, the DMCA does not apply, ergo he's very unlikely to have broken the law in the manner you suggest

The Copyright, Design and Patents Act 1988 was around in the UK ten years before the DMCA.

Specifically, we're talking about Section 296 which says:

• "296.--(1) This section applies where copies of a copyright work are issued to the public, by or with the licence of the copyright owner, in an electronic form which is copy-protected.

  (2) The person issuing the copies to the public has the same rights against a person who, knowing or having reason to believe that it will be used to make infringing copies--

  (a) makes, imports, sells or lets for hire, offers or exposes for sale or hire, or advertises for sale or hire, any device or means specifically designed or adapted to circumvent the form of copy-protection employed, or

  (b) publishes information intended to enable or assist persons to circumvent that form of copy-protection, as a copyright owner has in respect of an infringement of copyright."

The CDPA is a little more reasonable than the DMCA, as it basically says that contributory copyright infringment can be prosecuted by the copyright owner under the same terms as primary infringement, i.e. a civil action. What it doesn't do is make secondary infringement a criminal offence, which is the really nasty bit of the DMCA.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[hymie3]

Seeing as I live in the United States, I'm visiting a web site in the United States, mr PineGreen certainly could have violated the DMCA by providing me with instructions on how to circumvent the copy protection.

Don't think he could be arrested for doing something outside of the United States which might have violated the DMCA? Ask
Elcomsoft.
The world is not the USA, but quite a bit of the world who could be effected by this does, at some point in their lives, visit the US.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[radish]

Interesting, I didn't realise that stuff was there. Still, the original poster mentioned a link to a site which is publishing said information. You'll probably prove me wrong again, but I dont know of any precedent in the UK which equates publishing a link to publishing the information contained on the linked page. If you see what I mean, there's a level if indirecton there.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

Fair use means he could not get convicted of copyright infringement, it is not a defense to a circumvention violation under the DMCA.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Rogerborg]

• Still, the original poster mentioned a link to a site which is publishing said information. You'll probably prove me wrong again, but I dont know of any precedent in the UK which equates publishing a link to publishing the information contained on the linked page

British (by which I mean both Scottish and English/Welsh) case law on linking is still very vague. The few cases that have reached court have dealt with deep linking as a copyright violation (i.e. passing off another site's content as your own by framing it) and they have gone against the linker, but there's been nothing comparable with the US ban on links to DeCSS. Yet.

In fact, the DCPA hasn't seen too many tests, until it hit the news recently when Sony used it to prevent the sale of a PS2 mod chip in the UK. What was particularly interesting about the ruling was that the judge ruled that despite the non-infringing use of making a backup copy (explicitely allowed by the DCPA, unlike the DMCA), simply because people could give backups to each other, that invalidated that defence (consider the implications of that - it seems to say that just because the DCPA says you can make legal backups, it doesn't really mean it, because you can use a legal backup illegally!). Also, on the matter of removing the region code to allow people to play imported games and DVD's, he expressed the opinion that regional licensing was binding, so there was no expressed or implied right to import discs, or even to purchase discs in one region, then to take them with you to another region. We can only hope that these sweeping and over broad judgements fail the laugh test in a higher court.

Not True

[automag_6]

I'll just put this thing in here and show you all that that story is total bullshi

ATZ0

NO CARRIER

Sony Music vs. Sony Electronics

[PinchDuck]

Let me get this straight: If I go shell ~$1800 USDfor a Sony Vaio (like I did 3 weeks ago), then I shell out another ~$20 USD for the disc, it not only will not play in their own damned PC, but it will crash their own system?

That shit is fucked up. I wonder if they make any claims as to the stability of their systems.

Re:Sony Music vs. Sony Electronics

[abe ferlman]

Aibo, go fetch the vaio!

Let go! Bad dog! BAD DOG!

Re:Sony Music vs. Sony Electronics

[Schwarzchild]

Slightly off-topic but Sony Electronics seems to have tried to patent zero-click shopping.

Re:Sony Music vs. Sony Electronics

[MillionthMonkey]

Let me get this straight: If I go shell ~$1800 USDfor a Sony Vaio (like I did 3 weeks ago), then I shell out another ~$20 USD for the disc, it not only will not play in their own damned PC, but it will crash their own system?

OK everybody! Let's all go out and buy a Vaio, and then return it because it doesn't play Celine Dion CDs!

Why not just use new media?

[NanoGator]

I think the RIAA should just use new media for music and stop using CD's. It'd be really simple for them to use a media format not unlike Nintendo's GameCube media. Heck, with modern compression schemes, they could use a higher frequency range and put all kinds of other doodads in it to make it better than the modern CD.

The media wouldn't have a drive for PC's, and if they patent the technology then nobody could release a PC drive. The only recourse would be for for people to run a cable from the device to the PC to capture the music. No matter what kind of 'protection schemes' they create, they'll never get around the fact that the sound becomes analog at some point. At least this way, they make it less convenient to copy the music.

This would go a lot farther than trying to preemptively punish me for being a criminal.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[lmfr]

"I think the RIAA should just use new media for music and stop using CD's"

They did (maybe not directly), it's called DVD. It has a audio only format.

But even if they changed to a closed format and media, the problem would be that the instaled base of cd players, either in cars, stereos, etc, is way to big to let RIAA change from cds to that new media in a period less than a few millenia... Will still having to release a cd version...

Re:Why not just use new media?

[NanoGator]

"They did (maybe not directly), it's called DVD. It has a audio only format."

It may take a little hacking at, but I'm pretty sure somebody'll figure out a way (if they haven't already done so) to rip the audio off it.

"But even if they changed to a closed format and media, the problem would be that the instaled base of cd players, either in cars, stereos, etc, is way to big to let RIAA change from cds to that new media in a period less than a few millenia... Will still having to release a cd version..."

They have the same problem if they try to restrict the CD's. Then they have to deal with a much worse problem: Not everybody who has a CD player can play their music. If that's the case, who'd trust a flakey media? It'd be far better for the RIAA to say "here is a brand new media, it's higher quality and it's smaller." and get it proliferated out there.

They'd have to transition from CD's to this new media, but once it's done they've bought themselves some time. The music industry has changed media a few times now. Records... 8-track... cassettes... CD... They could do it again. They're about due for it anyway. People's needs have changed. People today are spending money in order to listen to other media, such as MP3's. If that market gets saturated, the RIAA is screwed. Their tactic of 'lets change law to force people to use our ancient business model' has little chance of success, and could very well mean that a new organization rises to take their place.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[Sc00ter]

The problem with that is just about anything you can get on CD, you can almost for sure get on cassette, and probably (might require special order) get on vinyl.. So anything in this new format will probably still be available on non copy-protected formats for a LONG while.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[NanoGator]

The reason that cassettes are still available is that people like to listen to music in their cars. From a technology stand point, cassette is a better choice for a moving vehicle. Take that away, and the value of cassettes would be virtually nil. CD Players are dirt cheap and far better quality. It's certainly not because there are people who don't have CD Players out there.

In any case, part of what I was saying was that the 'new media' would be a higher quality than CD. The quality difference between CD and cassette is rather hard on the ears.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[Shiny Metal S.]

No matter what kind of 'protection schemes' they create, they'll never get around the fact that the sound becomes analog at some point.

As far as I know, they are making experiments on some guy to avoid that effect.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[DarkEdgeX]

Nintendo's GameCube format is nothing more than a mini-DVD, which in itself is not much different than 3" Pocket CD-R(W) discs. I'm sure the designers of DVD, when hammering out the format, made the same provisions. A better anology (I understand your root point) would be making their own format, ala the Dreamcast GD-ROM discs (which, AFAIK, are unlike anything commercially available, physical characteristics aside).

Re:Why not just use new media?

[NanoGator]

There's something different enough about the Nintendo DVD's that simply putting one into a DVD player won't make it instantly readable, but they could easily make a version of the GC that could play DVD's.

I wish I could explain it better to you, but it's been so long since I've read about it that I honestly couldn't tell you what all they did to protect them. Let's just say that anybody who manages to get data off the disk would have to have deep pockets to get the equipment they need.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[Refrag]

What do you think DVD Audio and Super Audio CD are?

Unfortunately, avoiding these new content-protected mediums has made shopping for a new DVD Video player annoying. I don't care much about movies, they're strictly entertainment. But, I won't accept business getting between me and my music. Music is a part of life.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[NanoGator]

"What do you think DVD Audio [dvdaudiopreview.com] and Super Audio CD [sonymusic.com] are?"

They're not marketing them very heavily. They need to do that before they can actually switch over. I have a feeling they're not doing that at all, they're just providing a premium service for the hardcore audiophiles out there.

Plus, I want the media to be smaller, not the same size. CD Players are rather large for my pocket.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[morcheeba]

They do, and it's called minidisc.

Ignore all the other users claiming it's SACD and DVD - they are too new to make any meaningful comparisons yet. Minidisc, however, has been promoted as a smaller-size compression-based consumer format. Copy protection is built-in; there are no digital outs on any minidiscs.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[Lumpy]

They dont want to.

and the reasons are cost. it is insanely cheap to press CD's. The last run I did for work was a measely 1000 CD run with 3 color silk screening on the disc, and a jewel case and 3 color printing with a booklet. my cost after all expenses was $1.95 per disc. this was shrink wrapped. Exactly the same thing they give you. and I paid at least 10 times what they pay for 1,000,000 per unit.

Second, making a format that is "better" than CD (already here it's called HDCD or DVD-Audio, sounds great been here for a year in best buy stores for consumers to buy) is that actually putting quality into the mastering and production of the audio costs Gobs of money. you can master a CD to souind fricking amazing. with a almost zero noise floor and awesome dynamic range... they dont because it's expensive to make a cd correctly instead of the crap they churn out.

The record companies are making so much money per disc it is insane.. and changing to another format that lowers their profit margins is nuts.

Online piracy does not affect their profits or income in any way shape or form, they know this, the numbers prove this, and in all truth, it is nothing new that only started happening this decade.. I remember ripping copies to casette of albums for friends back in highschool and it was very common. (college was better you could buy the latest on Casette for dirt.) and a good mp3 is only slightly better than a really good casette recording. (I'm talking quality dennon decks here not the crap any of you are used to.)

basically, the record companies are blatently lying to everyone and trying to whip a power trip on everyone.. Typical corperation mentality.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[morcheeba]

Actually, I was right, for 2 reasons...

1. Those digital outputs were on players, not the discs themselves. (Saved by my own poor choice of words -- that's a talent I should further develop!!)

2. I should have been more specific. What these guys put out is digital uncompressed music - not the original compressed data that was on the disc. To make a copy, this music has to be recompressed again. With lossless compression, this would be no problem -- all the compression/decompressions cycles would yield perfect copies. But, minidisc uses lossy [i.e. f'(f(x)) != x] compression that isn't totally symetric [i.e. f'(f(f'(f(x)))) != x ], so a little noise is introduced into each generation, even if its transfered digitally. more info here. I'd love to hear that you can read/write the compressed digital data!

I didn't know that there were digital outs [even if they're not the ones I was thinking of]! At $460, the rack unit isn't even outrageously expensive.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[NanoGator]

You can use a Dreamcast to read GameCube disks?? O_o

Re:Why not just use new media?

[NanoGator]

" there are high end all-digital systems, where signals are not converted to analog until they hit the speaker"

All I have to do is run a pair of wires from each speaker into a mini plug. I'm no electrician, but that'd be a piece of cake.

They'd have to invent a digital speaker before you can do that, and that just cannot happen unless they invent telepathic headphones.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[DarkEdgeX]

Ah, apologies then.. I've never had a GC or GC disc to try in my DVD-ROM drive, I just took the articles at their word (well, the announcement articles) that said it was a mini-DVD. I wasn't aware it was modified that much. =) I guess the more accurate description of Nintendo's format is that it likely uses a very similar physical layout, but stores the data in such a way as not to be readable at all (and I mean beyond simply using a different file system). Oh well. =)

Re:Why not just use new media?

[poot_rootbeer]

Hardware manufacturers design the media. Hardware manufacturers want to make money. If there was a market for this new "better-than-CD" media (which sounds awfully similar to DVD-Audio to me), and there was a market for PC drives for that media, those drives would be manufactured regardless of the RIAA's wishes.

And as we've seen with DVD-Audio, no one seems very interested in a new audio format. The Compact Disc has only been on the market for about 20 years, and has only been the dominant media for maybe the last 15. We don't want a new format now, especially if it's more restrictive in how we can play it.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[NanoGator]

"We don't want a new format now, especially if it's more restrictive in how we can play it."

This was suggested as a solution for the RIAA, not the consumer. I would MUCH RATHER they use a more restrictive medium than try to make PC's restricted. At least when they sink, they won't take my animation job with them.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[Refrag]

You're right. Best Buy is the store of choice for "hardcore audiophiles." That's why I see a majority of DVD players there with DVD Audio and SACD capabilities and that's probably why there is a good supply of DVD Audio discs thrown in with the DVD Video music discs.

I avoid them like the plague.

"Will not play on PC" != "Will damage PC"

[yerricde]

There's a warning in my car owner's manual that admits that pouring gasoline all over myself and lighting a match may cause permanent injury or death. I should sue them!

I am not a lawyer, but I don't see how a rational judge would interpret the warning label "Will not play on PC" as "If inserted into a PC, may irreversibly damage PC hardware". Sony's best bet here is to blame the CD-ROM drive manufacturers and shift the damage to their warranty. In that case, if it's a Sony drive, tough sh*t for Sony.

Re:"Will not play on PC" != "Will damage PC"

[Dr. Spork]

It's funny... my CD-ROM is made Sony! If it got screwed up, by the Sony disk, I don't think there would be much trouble at finding the party at fault!

Is it a marketing strategy?

[joestar]

Will millions computer users go to stores buying this new CD to check if it really crash their PC or Mac? This strategy could really work! Actually in my own case, I couldn't deny that perhaps tomorrow I'm going to buy the CD just to check if it can crash my Mdk8.2 box (although I really doubt about that), and why!

Sony being sued, don't think so

[beta21]

I am very sure Sony thought this out in detail. The wording on the back of the CD (warning you not ot play onthe PC or MAC) most probably covers them.

Similar situation is like the warnings on bleach. Don't drink bleach. So by drinking it you can't sue the bleach company even if you wanted your insides sparkling clean.

Re:Sony being sued, don't think so

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

Well you can sue if your coffee is hot.

Ask McDonalds. They paid MILLIONS of dollars in damages.

Re:Sony being sued, don't think so

[10.0.0.1]

So by drinking it you can't sue the bleach company even if you wanted your insides sparkling clean.

You can't? *BURP* Damn.

Re:Sony being sued, don't think so

[Violet Null]

Well you can sue if your coffee is hot.

Everyone likes to bring this one up, don't they?

McDonald's was not sued because their coffee was hot. McDonald's was sued because their coffee was hot enough to cause third degree burns upon instant contact with the skin, because they were aware of this, and did nothing about it.

Most people expect coffee to be hot. Most people do not expect it to be 180 degree Fahrenheit, the temperature that McDonald's was serving it at.

What a bunch of crap

[Reality Master 101]

Is anyone using any critical thinking? How can a particular combination of bits on a CD crash your computer, much less "cause damage to your computer"?

If your computer crashes based on a bad CD, then get a new CD-ROM drive because it's a piece of crap.

Assuming Sony is not doing anything physically wrong to the disk (like making it too thick or something absurd), there is no story here.

Re:What a bunch of crap

[Shiny Metal S.]

Is anyone using any critical thinking? How can a particular combination of bits on a CD crash your computer, much less "cause damage to your computer"?

I used to think exactly the same, until one CD proved me wrong.

Re:What a bunch of crap

[Jaeger]

I'd be willing to bet that this would screw up your average consumer-grade operating system. (And if you were trying even harder, you could probably have a whole lot more success.)

Compile this and put it in AUTORUN.EXE on the cd:

#include <string.h>

void main() {
memset(NULL, 0, MAX_INT);
}

Re:What a bunch of crap

[NanoGator]

Could somebody translate this into english for me?

My idea was to have the autorun program just eject the CD. You pop the CD in, and then it pops back out again. It'd be kind of like the PC gagging on it, hehe. I'm sure it'd take a while for the average user to know that disabling autorun'd turn off that behviour.

Re:What a bunch of crap

[lkaos]

Is anyone using any critical thinking? How can a particular combination of bits on a CD crash your computer, much less "cause damage to your computer"?

You know, I read a paper once on the potential of a computer virus randomly evolving. It essentially relied on the fact that if a virus could be written in 1K bytes of asm data, there was a 1:4096 chance of it occuring in randomly executed bits. Of course, that assumes extremely high entropy in the data being executed.

Anyway, the Windows at least has very poor error checking mechanisms. CDs have specific formats and if the format is broken, then Windows may develop a buffer overflow or something.

In all fairness, I have had Linux hang on bad CD-Rs...

Re:What a bunch of crap

[$carab]

What? Excuse me?

It's rather easy for a "combination of bits" to crash your computer, especially from a trusted, local source (CD-Drive). It's not their computer you're crashing, it's their OS.

Do you remember the infamous screensaver override program? The one that hacked Windows 9x screensaver passwords by exploiting the autorun capability? That is just one example.

It seems to me like this stuff is just dangerous. I mean, if it "crashes" your Operating System, by definition, your OS has malfunctioned and is not working correctly. When that happens, bad stuff, REALLY bad stuff (a la Firmware overwrite) COULD happen.

It has been often said that, in order to stop pirates, the recording industry could employ teams of virus programmers (they could afford them), to create uber-virii, which they could then distribute through file-sharing programs.

That approach, as illegal and horrifying as it may seem, is probably actually more "legal" (common-sense legal, not this crazy "copyright" legal) than Sony's plan. I mean, you've bought the Damn CD, and you should have rights to play it in a CD player. Any CD player. Whereas if someone got their computer crashed due to the uber-virus, they wouldn't really have a recourse (They didn't own the files, after all).

Just my 2 cents.

Re:What a bunch of crap

[coyote-san]

You're confusing the data and the meta-data.

The *data* on the CD can't cause physical damage to your computer. Even if it tried to apply a constant DC signal to your speakers, the hardware would prevent that.

The first-order *meta-data* is the TOC that's been corrupted in the past. It makes a disc unusable without correction, but it usually won't cause physical harm unless the drive manufacturer was unusually dumb.

But some of the second-order metadata is another story. That's the information that the drive uses to adjust stepping motors and signal levels, and it's possible that some combinations would cause damage to some hardware.

I don't know what bits a CD encode, but I know it encodes *some* data that CD burners can't touch. I know that blank CD-R media includes bits that indicate media type, etc.

Re:What a bunch of crap

[z4ce]

I think that you mean

1:2^4096

Ian

Re:What a bunch of crap

[Anonymous DWord]

Whereas if someone got their computer crashed due to the uber-virus, they wouldn't really have a recourse (They didn't own the files, after all).

What if they did? I've downloaded songs because it was faster than going into the other room and trying to find the CD it's on. Illegal?

Re:What a bunch of crap

[VivianC]

A CD could be setup to automagically wipe or corrupt the firmware on a drive or damage a computer's BIOS. Upgradeable DVD players use this all the time.

If you never had to upgrade firmware on a CD drive, then you have never owned an APEX DVD Player or a Plextor CDR drive.

Re:What a bunch of crap

[gorilla]

1K bytes has 2^(8*1024) possible states, that's approx 10^2400. Slightly larger than 4096.

Re:Dearest Michael

[Matthaeus]

Not that I mean to nitpick, but are you offering the legal advice that I should sue Sony, lose, and then sue Slashdot for damages? If I lose against Slashdot, can I sue you?

Or was your comment meant as incredibly dry humor?

warnings get sony off the hook?

[peter_gzowski]

I hope not. Then any company could take away consumer's rights by just issuing warnings. What if I opened up a store with a big sign out front stating, "Warning! Homosexuals are not permitted to make purchases in this store." Something tells me I still might get into trouble... I don't have time right now to cite actual court cases, but it seems to me that consumers have basic rights, and that companies have to have damn good reasons for taking them away.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Digitalia]

The situation you suggest is not the same. One is discrimination and the other is a case of caveat emptor. In the former, case law allows for civil action when discrimination based on various attributes such as sex, gender, race, and such occur. In the latter, there is absolutely no precedence such that we can consider providing a good, with complete disclosure of inherent flaws in said good, to be an actionable offense.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[ender81b]

The scary thing is yes you could do this - although you would piss people off. you can refuse to sell something to a CUSTOMER for any reason, or no reason. However, you can't refuse to HIRE somebody based on any reason. So yes, you could put a huge sign that says "no homosexuals allowed" and be fine with it - but you owuld still have to HIRE them, note this DOES NOT apply to gov't or any business that recieves Gov't funding. As a matter of fact, in recent years many home owners associations have begin to have bylaws that say, basiclly, if you ain't white, rich, protestant, and meet our standards you can't live here. But, of course, realators can't sell/show houses that are in such home associations so it isn't that widespread of a thing -yet.

In essence, sony can do whatever they want with the compact discs as long as they don't violate existing law (yeah, I think they do but the RIAA doesn't). And think of it this way - if you could get this disc to play in your computer you would be in violation of the DMCA.

And citing homosexuality as a case is bad - in most states in the US it is perfectly OK to discriminate against this, including hiring.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

DMCA took away almost all of your rights. The CBDTPA (formerly known as the SSSCA) will take the rest, including the right to independently produce content or use your PC as anything more than an "entertainment" device.

You try to exercise what used to be your rights and the gov't will smack you down hard. Look at the DeCSS and Sklyarov cases.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[TheTrunkDr.]

Yes they should! a warning isn't taking away anyone's rights, all it's doing is saying you shouldn't do something, and if you do we're not responsible for the consequences. You're whole homosexual reference is so rediculous, it's not even a warning, all it says is certain people can't shop there? what are warning them of? a better analogy would be "don't drink the drano" now according to you this deprives you of your legal right to drink drano... well no you can drink it (and when it comes do you, I recommend it). It's just saying bad stuff will happen if you do. By all means go ahead drink the drano, if you survive sue the crap out of them because you know you want to.

This society sickens me, nobody ever takes resposibility for anything, they can always blame someone for something and get away with it. My son killed several people at school and himself, wait I found these video games in his room, they must have made him do it! there's no way my son had any social or psychological problems after all I'm a good parent, and there was never any signs before this. Oh I slipped, fell and broke my leg for no apparent reason, it must be the city's fault! after all it's not my fault I can't walk. Oh I'm fat it must be all those fast food places chaing my ass to a pole in the back room and force feeding me greasy burgers. After all I'm not a gluttonous pig who doesn't get exercise and just sits around all day eating shit that would kill a horse. Fuck grow up and take some responsibility for your lives people!

Can't someone else do it? The garbage man can!

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[kettch]

I wonder if this can be compared to "Beware of Dog" signs. (IANAL, and i don't know if this applies outside of Oregon, USA) As far as i know, if someone posts a "Beware of Dog" sign, that doesn't absolve them. That merely means that they know that they have a dangerous dog, They must still do everthing in their power to make sure that dog does not hurt anyone. Including providing a clear path to the front door. If there is a sign, and the dog is chained up, and i go piss it off and it bites me, then it is my fault. BUT if there is a sign and the dog comes out of nowhere and bites me, then i own their house. I think you also have the right to have the dog tested for rabies, which requires the dog be dead and dissected. Somehow, though, i doubt that the Supreme court is going to require that things to dissected to see why they crash.
However, this does show a precedent that warnings do not make it OK.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[GospelHead821]

This is a good analogy, but I think that as far as it applies to the situation with the CD's, trying to play the CD in a Mac or PC is the same as going over to the chained up dog and pissing it off. You are intentionally doing what has clearly been warned is a bad thing to do. I don't think that anybody's going to be successfully suing anybody over computer problems related to these marked CD's.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

Precisely. If I go into such a theatre with a sign saying "warning, if your guard smashes my cell phone, I will go out to my car, get my pistol, and shoot him in the face", I'm not going to expect to be spending the evening at home if such a chain of events were to occur...

Disclaimers do not allow violation of the law, and last I heard, intentionally crashing computer equipment owned by others was a Denial of Service, and a terrorist action under the Patriot Act, (yea I'm a bit fuzzy there, but it sounds nice)

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[oo7tushar]

actually it's fair use. A CDrom should be playable in any device that is meant to play it. Otherwise it is not allowing a subset of the population to use the CD from a media player on which tariffs have been paid (to allow playability). By tarrifs I mean the money to build a hardware decoder, buyers contribute to the cost and thus have a purchased right/contract to play music media on it. Crashing the computer is damage not only to the system but breach of contract (by Sony) which happenned when you paid for the CD.
Paying for something is having the _right_ to use it without discrimination.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Skidge]

Sorry, that was a bad example. The McDonald's coffee law suit wasn't quite so cut-and-dry frivolous as many people believe. The coffee at McDonalds was, as a matter of policy, stored at scalding temperatures. The woman, who was 79, was sitting in the passenger seat, not driving the car. The car was parked, not moving. Many people cite this case and claim to know the facts, but most people are just perpetuating misinformation.

More details on the McDonalds coffee law suit.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Inthewire]

I agree that frivolous lawsuits are a pox on the legal system, but the McDonald's case had a point.

By its own corporate standards, McDonald's sells coffee at 180 to 190 degrees Fahrenheit. A scientist testifying for McDonald's argued that any coffee hotter than 130 degrees could produce third degree burns. Likewise, a scientist testifying on behalf of Ms. Liebeck noted that it takes less than three seconds to produce a third degree burn at 190 degrees.

During trial, McDonald's admitted that it had known about the risk of serious burns from its coffee for more than 10 years. From 1982 to 1992, McDonald's received at least 700 reports of burns from scalding coffee; some of the injured were children and infants. Many customers received severe burns to the genital area, perineum, inner thighs and buttocks. In addition, many of these claims were settled for up to $500,000.

Witnesses for McDonald's testified that consumers were not aware of the extent of danger from coffee spills served at the company's required temperature. McDonald's admitted it did not warn customers and could offer no explanation as to why it did not.

There's a hell of a lot more information at http://www.citizen.org/congress/civjus/tort/myths/ articles.cfm?ID=785

Re:maybe if this sort of CD protection worked...

[Sc00ter]

The problem with this is.. How do I get my music that I bought on my portable MP3 player? The one that I use to listen to because it's way smaller then any portable CD player and will never skip when I go for a run. How do I make a backup copy for me to have in my car so the one I paid for doesn't get scratched to hell?

Re:the obligatory "and in other news..." post

[Arandir]

There's a big difference here. A CD is meant to play in a CD player. A shotgun is meant to hunt birds.

Using the shotgun to blast your computer into small pieces is not the normal use of a shotgun. Putting a music CD into a CD player *is* the normal use of a shotgun.

Of course, in the future, the normal use of Celine Dion CDs will be to launch them as clay pidgeons and shoot them with your shotgun...

Re:Proventing Suicide

[lmfr]

"he said he hasn't had a problem with it"

The problem with it is that he *has* it! ;)

(Sorry, couldn't resist...)

Finally.....

[unixwin]

...I can convince a couple of my friends that even the computer agrees about her voice....

New Lyrics for the Warbling One

[The Cat]

Near... far... wherever you are...

I believe that the mouse won't move on...

Once more... you close the drive door...

rip, mix, and blue screen...

our prices go up and on...

Re:the obligatory "and in other news..." post

[Amazing Quantum Man]

Using the shotgun to blast your computer into small pieces is not the normal use of a shotgun. Putting a music CD into a CD player *is* the normal use of a shotgun.

Uh, could you tell me how I could use a shotgun to put a music CD into my CD player, please? :-P

Re:Dearest Michael

[Shiny Metal S.]

Since Sony admits that their product is designed to cause damage to your computer system, almost anyone would likely have a good lawsuit against them.

Do you realise that, if someone were to read that, sue Sony and fail, they could hold you liable?

Great! I wanted to sue Sony but I wasn't sure if I can win (I'm ANAL) and I was actually counting on Sony losing all of their money in my lawsuit. But now I can't lose! If I won't get any money from Sony, then I will from the new-day-has-come dept. Thanks Flarners for your legal advice.

Is this really new?

[ath0mic]

Now it's just Sony making CDs which cause your computer to crash instead of Microsoft.

Shhh!

[zenintrude]

I work for Sony, and this our only idea as to the killing off of Celine's career. How dare you warn her, have you heard the awful cd?!

The artist really doesn't have much say-so...

[Zenjive]

Attention Celine Dion and all musicians: crashing your fans' computers is not a good business practice. No matter what your agent says.

The artists are pretty much powerless to this sort of underhanded behaviour, or so most of them think.

the warning should read:
Attention musicians!!! Go for indie labels or produce your music yourself. Better profits, better control over YOUR work. You are not an indentured servant of the record labels!! Give your producer the finger! Go INDIE!

Re:The artist really doesn't have much say-so...

[tkrotchko]

Celine Dion has been one of the most profitable acts for Sony over the past few years. They generally reach a point where they extract a much better deal with the record company than a start-up garage band.

Do you seriously think an act of this earning potential has no say on the use of copy protection from their label? I don't think so. In fact, an artist like this probably thinks of earnings potential as one of their primary motivators, so they're more likely to use something like this if they think it will net them a few bucks.

Re:Dearest Michael

[Reality Master 101]

I'm no fan of Michael, but who's the idiot who moderated this as insightful? Just for the record since some people apparently think this guy has a point, this post is complete bullshit and most likely a troll.

They're a cunning bunch eh?

[NewtonsLaw]

Has anyone else noticed that virtually all the music they're trying to protect with these lame systems is the type of stuff that no right-minded person would want to copy in the first place?

Let's see them try it on an album that people might want to copy and then watch the reaction of the public.

They can probably weather the outrage of Natalie Umbruglia's fans (both of them) and that Apalachian guy and his cousin/wife who like Celine -- but just watch how much they'll get stung when they piss off all the real music lovers!

Re:They're a cunning bunch eh?

[MAXOMENOS]

Has anyone else noticed that virtually all the music they're trying to protect with these lame systems is the type of stuff that no right-minded person would want to copy in the first place?

And why not? Consider:

• If the technology fails (and it has), then they lose a ton on R&D but not much on the artist herself, since most of her fans will still buy the CD. They may have even exposed their artist to new markets, although it's doubtful that most computer geeks will buy her crapola.
• If the technology succeeds, then they have a proven copy prevention technology to use on their other, more widely copied, artists (e.g., Britney Speers, Metallica, etc.)

Fact is they're probably going to try every hare brained scheme they can to prevent copying. The hare-brained schemes run out when they figure out that they're wasting their goddamn money on technology that doesn't work and laws that get customers pissed at them.

April Fools?

[coyote-san]

This has got to be a late April Fool's joke.

The problem is that there's a huge difference between a CD that passively fails to play and one that actively disables the system.

Think about it - if it "merely" disables the eject tray, forcing the user to manually eject the disc, you're going to have some number of users (1%?) who damage their systems in the attempt to extract the disc so they can continue to use the system to read data CDs and other music CDs.

Some will hire lawyers, and you'll soon be hit with suits demanding you to restore their systems *and data* since the loss of the systems was not an unforeseeable accident. Maybe you'll win, maybe you'll lose, but it will cost money.

Worse, some will contact their local governments. Some prosecutors will see boxes damaged in the attempt to extract these discs, and after looking at the disclaimer they'll have no doubt that it was a deliberate, premeditated attempt to damage computer hardware when the owner attempted to do a perfectly reasonable and legal act. You'll soon be facing criminal charges.

News of this so close to April 1st, especially with the FOAF nature (German? CDs, not American ones) makes me think that this was prank with legs.

I knew it!

[fm6]

A fan!

I've been waiting for this

[0xA]

Ahh you bastards! Okay so Celine Dion is not much of a loss to me but you guys just tripped over your own feet in a large way.

I have one of these Mini Disc Walkmans. Along with it came this handy little kit to connect my walkman to my PC and record a cd to it.

Now with this CD from Sony Music I am unable to use my Sony PC Link to enjoy this music I have (hypothetically) purchased using my Sony MD Walkman. Hmmmm. Certainly calls into question my plans to purchase a new MD Walkman, the much more expensive MZ-900DPC sometime this month. Or maybe I just won't purchase Sony Music titles any more.

Nice of you guys to put me in a position where I have to choose between your hardware and music titles. I would have figured you would prefer me to purchase both, that's probably why you're the high paid media exective and I'm just the consumer with a love of music and a large disposable income though.

So long and thanks for all the laughs, if you need me I'll be in the Panasonic section at Circut City.

Re:I've been waiting for this

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you kidding? Speaking as someone who works close to the companies in question, I can tell you without a doubt that SEL and Sony Music didn't have a single talk about this. And in fact SEL is probably extremely pissed off.

As with any big corporation, everybody's just trying to justify their next [quarter|year|whatever] budget. Sony Music saw this as a great way to "protect their revenue stream" (blinders, but that's beside the point) and therefore justify the size of the bureacracy at the top of that group; meanwhile, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find out that SEL is busy trying to find a way for their hardware (Vaios, PC Links, etc) to work around it so they can justify the size of the bureacracy at the top of that group.

This is the same exact reason you haven't seen serious, concentrated efforts at providing consumers with downloadable digital music -- who gets the money? It better be in my group, or else why should I spend part of my budget helping you out?

My point is, don't attribute the fact that you can play Sony music on Sony electronics to malice -- it's bureacracy (read:idiocy), and it's not going away any time soon.

(And, by the way, I'm not for a minute suggesting you rethink your Sony boycot. I don't think the concept as implemented here on Slashdot would work, but if someone finds a way to organize the masses of unwashed geeks, I'll be right behind.)

Shouldn't the CD's be cheaper, then?

[NanoGator]

So, if Sony has enabled this 'protection' technology on the CD's, then they are (in theory) stopping 'pirates' from making unauthorized copies. Therefore, they are not losing as much money.

Shouldn't they at least reward us for our inconvenience? I mean if Sony said "Tell you what, because we've implemented this new 'protection' scheme, we'll knock $5 off the price of the CD."

If they're not doing that, how can the use the word protection? It's certainly not us they're protecting. They should use the word restriction at that point.

Tell you what, if Sony (or any other Music Label) were to take this approach, I'd have a hell of a lot more sympathy for them. I'm not sure it'd end my boycott, but it'd be a start. They took my music rights away, therefore the music has much less value. So why should the prices be the same? That gives them the image of being super evil.

Re:Shouldn't the CD's be cheaper, then?

[Sc00ter]

But it cost them so much to R&D this new copyprotection.. they need to make their money back on that! You want them to go hungry! :)

Re:Shouldn't the CD's be cheaper, then?

[NanoGator]

Funny, I didn't think the idea of making the CD corrupt would cost that much money to develop. Heh. :)

Re:Shouldn't the CD's be cheaper, then?

[glwtta]

This is all nice and everything, but you are coming at it from far too logical and ehtical a position. You don't really think Sony execs are sitting around thinking what the fair thing to do is, do you?

One thing I like about these labels is that now they are very honest about what it is they are "protecting" - it's their revenue streams, and not your freedoms, or fair use. And my guess is, that while the prices "should" be lower, since the don't "have" to be lower, they won't be. The consumers have spoken - they've shown that it's ok to treat them like shit, and they will still buy whatever shit these companies produce. There's no need for these companies to treat anyone fairly to get the most money possible, so of course they won't. If that wasn't the case, they wouldn't be in their current, rather lucrative, position.

Re:Shouldn't the CD's be cheaper, then?

[NanoGator]

You must be a total idiot if you can't even install Windows.

Re:Fair Use???

[arkanes]

Sadly, no. The Fair Use provision of copyright law only shield you from prosecution, they don't guarantee anything. And the DMCA overrides most of the fair use laws, too, especially the ones about backups (If you can make a backup with it, you can make a copy with it, if you can make a copy with it, it's a circumvention device).

Violates Fair Use

[puppetman]

If I own a CD, I can make a tape of it for personal use.

If I own a bunch of CDs, I have the right to rip and burn tracks from all CDs onto a compilation disk.

Moreover, a computer is a valid choice as an audio player. My wife and I don't own a stereo - we use a computer with speakers.

Sony is a large (music, games, computer hardware, audio-video, cameras, toys) corporation that frequently employees proprietary standards to gain market share. They shouldn't be rewarded for this.

Personal note - buy nothing from Sony.

Re:Violates Fair Use

[puppetman]

Yes, but the CD has that little symbol on it that indicates it conforms to the blue/red book standard. My CD player on my computer has the same symbol.

The CD that Sony has released is no longer compatible.

Stereo shemrio. Married doesn't make you rich, or an audiophile.

Re:Dearest Michael

[mwalker]

I'm no fan of Michael either, nor am I a fan of known Trolls like "Reality Master".

The parent-parent post has a good point. The reason that major news organizations such as CNN, Newsweek, etc., all preface "Osama Bin Laden" with the phrase "alleged terrorist" instead of "terrorist" is that if you publish something you cannot prove, as a news organization, you can be held liable for the result.

When Slashdot publishes as fact the point that Celine Dion's CD is cause for a no-lose lawsuit against Sony, that could be a potentially bad situation. What's the source? Is it opinion? It's stated as fact!

The clever trolls are always the worst; nice one RM101.

The REAL reason behind this

[Rui del-Negro]

This was the only way a Celine Dion record could get free publicity on Slashdot.

Re:The REAL reason behind this

[Dirtside]

That's like Isaac Hayes getting free publicity at a Klan rally. Why would he want it? :)

I can see the new commercial now...

[DA_MAN_DA_MYTH]

You wake up in the middle of the night to some distressing news...

'I was patching the web server, and uh I was like playing a CD and uhhh... the server's down.'

Then suddenly you realize your so ready for IBM, (Or at least an admin that has better music tastes)

Re:Inflammatory Headline?

[chefmonkey]

The headline is hardly sensationalistic.

Did you read the article? "Sony Intentionally Crashes Customers' Computers" is merely a rephrasing of what Sony actually claims:

"The CD will probably cause a system to crash, but it will not alter anything," the [Sony] spokeswoman said. "And it won't eject properly, but that's just because the computer has crashed."

Ya know, there are CD players that use CDROMS

[BrookHarty]

First off, "will not play on a PC or a Mac" doesnt say DVD, Advanced CD players, or MP3/CD combo units.

My DVD player uses PC cdrom unit in it, it plays cds/vcds/svcds/mp3s also. I play my CDs on it all the time. It is not a PC. If a CD ruined my DVD player, Id take the company to small claims court, and talk to the local District Attorney.

What CD Media World says about key2Audio

[akac]

With key2audio Sony DADC is offering you the optimal protection for your Audio CD's. Using highest quality and ensuring best compatibility, key2audio was developed to support the music industry in protecting its music from illegal duplication and copyright infringement. Without altering the music data stream, key2audio CD's still offer crystal clear sound and no read fault errors.

During glass mastering, several special hidden signatures, similar to a unique fingerprint, are applied outside the music data area. These signatures can neither be duplicated by CD-R/RW burners, nor by professional glass mastering systems.

Audio discs protected with the current version cannot be recognised by standard CD/DVD-ROM, CD-R and CD-RW drives, thus they do not play on PC, Apple Macintosh or other systems equipped with CD- ROM, CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-ROM and DVD-R devices. This ensures the highest efficiency currently available. Due to the fact that key2audio(TM) protected discs do not play on PC, no ripping is possible. Analogue copies, on the contrary, can be made to any analogue devices. (eg MC).

key2audio does not alter the sound quality in any way. Music data is not accessed, the bitstream is exactly the same for a protected and an unprotected CD (no C2 errors/uncorrectables in the music data). Only the copier notices a difference, for the listener, the sound remains the same.

The audio part completely complies with Red Book standard. In addition, a CD protected with key2audio still guarantees a maximum playing time of 77 minutes and therefore does not limit the pleasure of listening time at all. Full ISRC, UPC, CD Text capabilities are supported.

The key2Audio work on most CD Readers but on a few (more expensive) readers they fail to work.

Now that's what I call Protection

[ziriyab]

Can't Sony cross-market this as a system that protects the user from Celine Dion?

Re:Now that's what I call Protection

[Technician]

Can't Sony cross-market this as a system that protects the user from Celine Dion?
I don't think this can be marketed as a system that protects the user from Celine Dion. Unfortunately they will still play in the stereo and walkman. Also there are other sections not in this format that will still play in your PC. If they release a that will detect and not play any Celine Dion, they would have something.

seems pretty simple to me

[areiosoltani]

look, there's a "compact disc" logo on my CD player at home and a "compact disc" logo on CD-ROM in my computer. if sony wants to sport a "compact disc" authorized logo on their music, it had better damn play in both or else it happens to be an optically-read 4.5" platter that is misusing red book certifications and patents. case closed.

I miss fair use

[ColGraff]

I really wish the music industry would realize some of us have really, really nice sound systems hooked up to our computers, and that we like to listen to music on them - without any intention to pirate that music!

The problem with music as a business...

[NanoGator]

... is that it's waaaaaaay too easy to replicate. I think the RIAA chose a very bad product to produce if they are concerned about non-paid-for copies floating around.

All I have to do is download the lyrics and I could sing the song. Garage bands could easily do a nice rendition of the song that'd be worth listening to. As a matter of fact, re-mixes are quite popular out there. A lot of remixes don't even have elements of the original score in them. Sounds like a problem, doesn't it? They may be able to stop me from ripping a CD, but there's no way on Earth they could stop somebody from recording their own rendition of a song.

It seems to me that the RIAA is being rather unrealistic in their choice of products to make. I just don't see how they could expect to end all 'piracy' for good. The worst part is that they are blaming the wrong people.

For example, Eisner said that Apple was promoting piracy with their "Rip/Mix/Burn" campaign. His concern is that people will think that music is free and that they don't have to pay for it. But wait a minute, people were trading MP3's LONG before Apple was airing any commercials. If anybody thinks that music is free, its because it's played on the radio!

When the music is played on the radio, they're basically saying 'music is free, just enjoy it.'. That's part of what made it fun to go buy songs. What you were buying, then, was not the right to listen to it, but the convenience of listening to it whenever and wherever you want. CD's, at the time, were the best way to do it.

Then MP3's came along. Oopsie, the RIAA didn't stay on the ball, and now their business model that THEY CREATED is turning against them. The amusing thing is that they are playing the wrong hand to fight it. I can't believe they are actually surprised that people may think music is free. This is not a new occurance, this is what the RIAA taught them!

If they want to fight it, they need to come up with a MORE CONVENIENT solution, instead of trying to make it illegal. Underage smoking: Illegal, happens anyway. Underage drinking: Illegal, happens anwyay. Smoking pot: Illegal, happens anyway. Why on earth do they think they can stop it? What they're FAR better off doing is saying "You can buy MP3s (or a variant) from us! They're cheap, and you can download any song you want really really fast. Buy an album and get a discount."

Better yet, they'd find ways to make money through the channels people are using to get songs. What if they released an MP3 version of a song with one of the singers at the end saying 'Mention this code: JdWt when you buy the song and get $2 off the album purchase.'?

They have so many options they could use, but they chose the one where they piss EVERYBODY off. Nice.

Re:The problem with music as a business...

[Rogerborg]

• What you were buying [on CD] was not the right to listen to it, but the convenience of listening to it whenever and wherever you want

Uh, mistaken belief. You do buy the right to listen to it, and in a restricted way. For example, you can't listen to it where more than six people might hear it, because that's a public performance, which the license you bought doesn't cover. Neither does it allow you to make copies of any sort. Case law - not copyright law - has decided that courts will probably not convict you for breaching the license terms if you do this, but it's always going to be a defence, and not a right. And (here we go again) there is no clause in Fair Use that covers making copies for personal use. That's case law again, and case law is just an opinion until it reaches the Supremes.

So you'd better be sure that the exact case you're interested in has been heard in the Supremes. For example, the Rio was let off in Appeals, and on the technicality that it didn't perform the copy from a CD, it was only a PC peripheral, and the infringement (if any) was done on the PC. AFAIK, no case has yet been heard that covers ripping from CD to a hard drive. We really need the RIAA to prosecute Microsoft over Media Player. My god, who do you cheer for in that fight?

Incidentally, I completely agree with your other statements. If the publisher makes buying a license or playing media so inconvenient that we'd rather not do so, then they've already lost the sale, and they can quit whining about "lost" revenue. They never had it in the first place, nor do they have any right to demand it. If we then choose to obtain an unlicensed copy, then that's a separate issue.

Re:The problem with music as a business...

[Glock27]

... is that it's waaaaaaay too easy to replicate.

That's the effect technology tends to have on things.

The RIAA is in the same position the book-producing monks were in after Gutenberg's press was invented...

Re:The problem with music as a business...

[NanoGator]

What customers want is to buy the songs individually. At least that's what I want. I don't know anybody that downloads 'albums', just songs.

Technically, if you're downloading individual songs, then the Record Industry isn't losing anything. Since all they sell are the whole albums, then technically they aren't hurt until somebody downloads an entire CD. I bet that doesn't happen NEAR as often in the illegal sense. (i.e. somebody replacing an album of a CD that was destroyed...)

Re:The problem with music as a business...

[NanoGator]

Did you read the part where I said this:

"Garage bands could easily do a nice rendition of the song that'd be worth listening to."

I never ever said they could duplicate it exactly. I said they could do a new rendition of the same song.

Re:The problem with music as a business...

[NanoGator]

BTW, you should listen to Weird Al sometime.

Re:The problem with music as a business...

[NanoGator]

The point of my comment is to expose the serious hole in the CPBTPA (sp?). Yes, technically you'd owe the copyright owner royalties. The point I was making is that increasing demand for music by decreasing the abililty to play it would spawn some creative solutions.

eh? huh?

[matth]

I still don't understand how it can playi n a regular CD player but not on a CD player on a computer?!?! how does it know.

Panic! Horror!

[Ageless]

Not to shock anyone, but pouring Liquid Drano down your throat will cause severe burns, injury and possibly death!

While I don't agree with copy protection on CDs, if the front of the CD says, "Do not play in a PC or a Mac" and you do it then Sony is not "intentionally" crashing your computer.

When you ignore the warnings, bad things happen. Don't do it.

Re:Panic! Horror!

[SuiteSisterMary]

There's a mighty big difference between what the label says, which is:

will not play on a PC or a Mac

and

will damage a PC or Mac

Kind of like 'Will not function in water' and 'will electrocute you if used in water.'

Re:Panic! Horror!

[clare-ents]

Okay,

Suppose it does play on my linux machine via cdparanoia or similar.

Can I sue them for mislabelling it?

Not that great

[legLess]

Apparently these CDs still adhere to the Red Book (somehow). But the consensus seems to be that the Key2Audio protection isn't that great:

• Bypassing it: CDFreaks article, although I don'tthink they're the original posters of this method.
• Hardware solution: AOpen CD 56X AKH/A80 (unconfirmed)
• Windows software solution #1: EAC. This is truly excellent software in its own regard, and apparently it bypasses Key2Audio nicely. You're better off Googling for EAC, as the site isn't updated often. Also check out the EAC mailing list, and this message in particular.
• Windows software solution #2: CloneCD. Many swear by it, but I haven't used it myself.

Most importantly, the tests are over - this is for real. It seems that Celine is Sony's biggest-selling "artist" - they wouldn't use her as a beta test.

Re:Not that great

[Fnkmaster]

I don't know what to be more scared of. The impending copy protection doom that we are facing, or the sheer horror of the fact that Celine Dione is Sony's best-selling musician.

This report is false.

[cos(0)]

A friend and I both bought Céline Dion's latest CD ("A New Day Has Come") in one of the first few days that it came out, brought it home, played it on the computer, ripped it to PCM using Exact Audio Copy and encoded it to Ogg Vorbis... this CD did absolutely nothing to the computer. The ripped files are perfect without any artifacts.

I don't know what this report is talking about.

my take

[RestiffBard]

all of these cds that come out with the protections on them. Has anyone noticed that they're not exactly the sort of music that copy protection circumventers really care to listen to anyway? Stories like this will interest me when someone like moby puts out a copy-protected cd. its a bit more likely that crackers would be pissed if they couldn't get a dose of moby. or fatboy slim or insert the name of your favorite artist here. Do crackers listen to Celine?

This encourages people to pirate CDs!

[NewtonsLaw]

How thick are the recording companies?

They think that by copy-protecting their CDs, people will no longer burn backups for the car or for their portable diskman players -- both environments where it's easy to accidentaly scratch/wreck an expensive original.

What they don't realize is that instead of buying legal CDs and making "fair use" backups for their own use, people will now find it far more attractive to simply wait until someone else either rips the disk or does an A-D conversion then makes the resulting MP3 files available on the net (through alt.binaries.music.* or one of the many P2P networks).

I for one won't buy a protected music CD -- so that would leave me with no alternative but to download an illegal MP3 copy because I need to burn a couple of spares for my own use.

I guess if I really wanted to be honest, I'd send the recording company a check for the value of the album I'd downloaded -- but chances are that they'd then prosecute me for piracy -- even though I had offered to pay anyway.

These guys couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery!

Re:This encourages people to pirate CDs!

[stubear]

Did you ever think of taking care of your crap? I have CDs that are ~20 years old and they play just as well as the day they were purchased. Why? Because I treat them carefully, even when transporting them.

Do you get pissed at the car manufacturer because your car could be damaged in a wreck and ask them for a replacement? You don't? Of course not, because you either drive carefully (take care of your crap) or you hope the other guy has insurance.

Re:This encourages people to pirate CDs!

[NewtonsLaw]

Did you ever think of taking care of your crap? I have CDs that are ~20 years old and they play just as well as the day they were purchased. Why? Because I treat them carefully, even when transporting them.

Well arent' you lucky then ;-)

I've got CDs here that have gotten fatal scratches on some tracks simply from normal wear and tear. The same has happened on occasion with software CDs -- but the HUGE difference is that I can almost always take the software CD back to the vendor and they'll give me a replacement for the cost of the media and handling. But just try that with a music CD!

So just what are we buying when we fork out for an audio CD?

It can't be a single-user license to listen to the music -- or they'd replace the media at cost plus handling right?

So, since they won't replace a damaged CD for the price of the media plus handling, are we to assume that the music itself has little value and that most of the sticker-price is being allocated to the plastic and aluminum foil that makes up the disk itself?

Surely the recording industry needs to decide what they're selling here.

Do you get pissed at the car manufacturer because your car could be damaged in a wreck and ask them for a replacement? You don't? Of course not, because you either drive carefully (take care of your crap) or you hope the other guy has insurance

No, there's a huge difference.

The cost of manufacturing (and repairing or replacing) a car represents a huge percentage of the ticket price. The cost of manufacturing or replacing a wrecked audio CD is a very, very tiny percentage of the price.

Until the recording companies acknowledge this and admit that we're actually paying for a licence to listen to the music (therefore be prepared to replace the media at cost+handling) then they'll get little sympathy from me.

Most people who copy CDs do so simply because if the original gets scratched, they're up for the full price of a new copy -- even though they've already bought it once and that copy is now screwed.

It's nothing but pure and simple greed on the part of the recording companies.

When they learn to play fair then maybe consumers will reciprocate. In the meantime they're simply trying to have their cake and eat it too.

Re:This encourages people to pirate CDs!

[Dephex Twin]

I take excellent care of all my CDs, but how about this: I don't mind buying CDs when I like the music. But I play music in my computer; I don't have a stereo. There is no *way* that I'm going to buy a CD out of the goodness of my heart if I can't even play it! I'll just download the MP3s, thanks, and I won't have any guilt about it.

You could say "Buy a stereo!" Well, up till now buying a nice computer with good speakers covered both of those things. I'm definitely not buying a stereo just so I can play these crippled CDs!

mark

Re:This encourages people to pirate CDs!

[geoswan]

I guess if I really wanted to be honest, I'd send the recording company a check for the value of the album I'd downloaded -- but chances are that they'd then prosecute me for piracy -- even though I had offered to pay anyway.

Why send the recording company a check? They didn't press a CD for you. They didn't spend money on packaging for you. They didn't spend money shipping product to you, or paying for a salesman to smooze your record store. Don't worry about those creeps. They had their big lick at the trough.

Send the artist money. Here is an outfit that does that for you. (I have no association with fairtunes.com, except I saw a link to them here on slashdot a couple of months ago, and thought it was a good idea.)

The artists get what, 5% or 10% or less of the retail price you pay? According to the fairtunes FAQ, the artists typically get all kinds of things, like the cost of producing their CDs charged back against their royalties, so they get more like 2% of the retail price.

Re:This encourages people to pirate CDs!

[Rogerborg]

• How thick are the recording companies? What they don't realize is that instead of buying legal CDs and making "fair use" backups for their own use, people will now find it far more attractive to simply wait until someone else either rips the disk

Yes, it's very funny, until you realise that they need to demonstrate that they can't stop sharing, so that they can strongarm the CBDTPA through and change the rules. Don't you get it? These guys might be stone cold greedy motherfuckers, but that doesn't make them idiots.

Re:This encourages people to pirate CDs!

[stubear]

- People breaking into my car and stealing them.
- My house burning down, getting brocken into etc.

Ever hear of insurance? You can cover the cost of personal items in home owners or renters insurance but you have to itemize and spend time listing what you want insured. Would you expect Dell to replace your PC (not saying you have a Dell) if your house burned down? No, you would either call your insurance agent or pony up and buy a new PC if you didn't have insurance.

...because creating you own parts would infringe on trademarks etc.

I know you used etc., a term I HATE reading in posts like this. It means you don't know what you are talking about so you'll throw in the "etc." to cover anything you missed. Panels, were they actually protected, would be covered by patents if they were truly unique and the look would becovered by copyrights (this is why you don't see a Ford Viper or a Dodge Corvette).

Anatomy of a Slashdot Music Story

[chazzf]

May it please the readers, I have summarized the above story and all attendant comments.

1. Story is posted noting that $company had implemented $copy_protection on the newest CD of $artist.

2. Someone points out that $copy_protection has a certain $bad_thing associated with it.

3. Users bemoan this heinous $copy_protection and associated $bad_thing.

4. Users bash $company and suggest boycott. Other users note that boycotts never work. Flamewar ensues.

5. Users bash $artist, say it wouldn't be worth ripping anyway.

6. Other users take the high moral ground about the sanctity of fair use.

7. Still other users suggest that $artist go independent. Other users defend $artist, stating that $company controls $artist.

8. There will be a smattering of posts flaming RIAA and other evil organizations.

9. Some users will suggest possible hardware/software workarounds.

10. Finally, in the background, the trolls continue on, oblivious to the actual content of the story.

There you have it, the story in a nutshell.

~Chazzf

Re:Anatomy of a Slashdot Music Story

[Violet Null]

Man, oh man, if only I had mod points today. That's got to be the most insightful thing I've read on Slashdot in a long, long while.

Re:Anatomy of a Slashdot Music Story

[(void*)]

Why is that insightful? It's like saying the sky is blue and without oxygen, one would cease to live.

A really insightful thing would be e^{i \theta} = \cos \theta + i \sin \theta. But I guess this aint News for Nerds anymore.

Re:Anatomy of a Slashdot Music Story

[MisterBlister]

You forgot:

11. Some dingus points out the obvious.

It Had to be said...

[halo8]

BLAME CANADA

Windows - NO what about Linux?

[matth]

What about linux? Will it work on there?

Re:I don't think so

[TooTallFourThinking]

Tee hee. When I saw the parent post I nearly busted a nut. The poster was pointing out the article was talking about permanently embedded in the hardware's controlling chips which is not something that can be flashed. If it can be flashed and is upgradeable then it is not permanent. Funny shit. It's more transient than permanent.

Intentionally crashes?

[aozilla]

Where in the article does it say that, exactly?

Nice move Sony

[Mordaximus]

The same company that would sell you their Network Walkman (NW-MS9 uses Memory Sticks, gets content via USB) for $499CDN will sell you CDs that you can't copy to it. The funny thing is the memory sticks this thing use are Magic Gate Memory Sticks, which is a Copyright Protection Technology.

Why not just stamp AOL on the top of these disks? they're just as useful.

What Bogus OS Would Allow Data to Crash It?

[billstewart]

I'm sorry, I just don't get it. It's one thing to say "It won't play on a Mac or Windows PC, you'll get ugly sounds instead of music" Fine. Tacky, but Darwin will deal with bad marketing plans quickly enough. Even "We'll sends some really loud ugly sounds that might warp your speaker heads" would be credible, if rude.

But "Your Operating System won't just treat the data bits like data, it'll *crash*???" What kind of BOGUS LAME-OID OPERATING SYSTEM WOULD DO THAT? What *should* happen, if the hardware and software are designed competently, is that the read() requests should either return with some indication of fewer bytes than requested or some error code saying the read failed, like it would if you put a disk full of badly formatted random noise bits into the drive.

Has Sony tricked the CDROM into handing lots of interrupts to the IDE controller or something? Would a USB- or Firewire-connected CDROM react differently?

Re:What Bogus OS Would Allow Data to Crash It?

[SuiteSisterMary]

It's out of whack enough to damage the firmware of CD-ROM drives, apparently. Buggered-up hardware will easily crash an OS.

Always a way around

[nolife]

You can always get around this thing. Just takes some good old fashion recording techniques like everyone did for decades until recently when ripping became possible.

Use the audio out jacks on your home cd player and attach them to the audio in on the back of your soundcard. If your lucky enough to have optical in/out, even better. Fire up any wav recorder, adjust the recording levels, and go to town. Many wav editors already include some method of detecting gaps and can break the wav file into separate files if needed. Sure it's not a straight digital rip and the quality may be slightly degraded but not anything you would notice after it's compressed to MP3 anyway. Keep in mind that it only takes ONE person in the entire world to do this, the rest of them will get it from their favorite P2P about two hours later. Soon you will see nfo files with mp3's that include the model of the home unit used, optical or rca jack, and then the compression scheme.

IMHO, mp3 players are not going away and seem to be gaining momentum rapidly. To completely ignore this fact and even go against it does not seem to make good business sense at all. I see MORE people downloading with this plan, not less. What are they thinking?

Re:maybe if this sort of CD protection worked...

[Dr. Spork]

Look, it's going to be a long time before one of these copy schemes is present on every single copy of the CD released around the world. The article says clearly this only affects Germany, or at most, Europe. Well, let an Australian buy the "normal" CD, rip it with EAC, compress to .ape and upload the files to usenet. That way, everyone can burn a bit-for-bit identical copy of the CD even if they live in Germany, without the stupid limitations on use. A fringe benefit of this system is that your contribution to the Sony tyrany is exactly 0.00 Euros.

Just don't count on me to be the guy who buys the CD to rip it for you. :)

Gestapo Celiene Dion Policies

[netik]

Sony is going quite overboard with this Album; Not only are they using copy protection, but they've also gone ahead and hired NetPD to investigate any possible location of the file on any filesharing network.

We've recieved a number of complaints from NetPD when they've seen songs from the album pass through our networks on Gnutella. It's quite extreme the lengths they are going through for such a popular artist.

You'd think they would put more effort into their smaller artists. They are the ones that will be hurt more from copying, not Dion. With millions of fans, she's not going to lose that much from copying; Sure, it's illegial to copy, but apply the same protection to ALL of your artists. Not just your big seller.

Re:Gestapo Celiene Dion Policies

[Anonymous DWord]

Sure, it's illegial to copy, but apply the same protection to ALL of your artists.

I'm sure it's only a matter of time.

Definition of Negligence--Sony guilty

[blueskies]

It's been a while since my intro to law class, but the one thing I do remember is that putting a warning sign up can possible INCREASE the chance of being sued. The reason being that it is much easier to prove that the defendent knew that they had a dangerous situation and didn't do anything about it. This site shows the 4 elements needed for a negligence case. (I apologize for the crappy site, but i didn't have much time and wanted to back up my information with something. Check google to find more sources).

1. The defendent must have a defined duty -- in this case to produce working products and not snake oil.
2. Breach of duty: act or ommision must be shown -- Sony knew about the defective CD's and any reasonable person would think that they should play in ALL cd players. Sony also knows that most people would try to use them in computer CD players which is why they have a warning.
3. The Breach of Duty must be shown to be considered a reasonable cause of damage -- Clear cut case here.
4. Damages must be shown.

Sony by warning the customer is actually admitting that they have a defect product, they know it's defective and can cause damages, and they refuse to fix it.

Re:Definition of Negligence--Sony guilty

[btellier]

But it is unintentional if Sony publicly states that their product will in no way HARM a CD-ROM/Computer/Flash/etc and it does. Crashing a computer means damages.

Definitely illegal

[DaveWood]

Remember all those frighteningly vague and overbroad "computer crime" and "anti-hacking" laws that most states have passed over the last 20 years? You know, like the one that got that college kid a felony indictment for installing SETI@Home at his university?

This CD is illegal under almost all of them.

http://nsi.org/Library/Compsec/computerlaw/statela ws.html

Of course, so is all "spyware," including RealPlayer/CometCursor/RealJukebox/etc., and for that matter, perhaps even Windows Media Player 8 (silent reporting) and Microsoft Word (silent GUID/CPUID tagging). Not to mention all spam/UCE. Then again, so is even portwalking or attempting to log in to a computer that's not yours... And I could go on.

Then again, if the government is corrupt enough for Bono/DMCA/UCITA/SSSCA, it's way more than corrupt enough to conveniently forget to enforce these laws to any good end.

English translation

[Jaeger]

Depending on exactly what sort of protection your operating system has against errant programs, different things may happen. Running it on a real operating system (unix, NT, OS X) won't do much besides a segmentation fault, or the native equivilant thereof. Running it on a consumer-grade operating system (one without rudimentary memory protection; windows =

My point was that writing code intended to crash a system isn't hard at all if you're not using a real operating system. It wouldn't be hard to destroy the registry or corrupt the master boot record, especially if the user in question happens to have administrator privlages.

Of course, it wouldn't be difficult either to have the drive eject and pop up a message saying, to the effect, "Bad customer! No soup for you!" Which should be easy to circumvent by unchecking "Autorun CDs". (Oh great. I think I just violated the DMCA by typing this last sentence.)

This CD worked fine for me...

[zilym]

Bought this CD a couple days ago and cdparanoia worked fine on it with no hitches... Of course, the article says something about Germany, so maybe the US releases aren't copy protected.

But then what's the point? Just seems like extra incentive for Germans to wait on buying this CD until someone else in the US buys it, rips it, and posts it online... The music industry just loses sales and gains nothing.

Line out, line in.

[yerricde]

The problem with this is.. How do I get my music that I bought on my portable MP3 player?

Line out, line in. Sony can't stop that, even with the CBDTPA, because the draft CBDTPA includes a provision that makes it illegal to watermark a copy of a work in such a manner as to prohibit clearly fair uses such as space-shifting.

<whine>But it's not digital and it'll lose quality!</whine>

So what? For one thing, the MP3 encoding at 128 kbps (the bitrate used for portable MP3 players; for archiving, use 192 VBR) loses more information than a decent D/A/D conversion loses. For another, Even cheap consumer D/A/D conversion will add noise of about 60 dB below rail, and ambient environmental noise will mask that. (Unless, of course, you habitually turn up your pocket stereo high enough to risk permanent hearing damage.)

Sony of Japan appears to "get it", sort of

[Milinar]

One of the strangest I saw in japan was the local video rental place, where you could rent CDs. Right next to the rack of CDs was a display of blank Minidiscs. Of course, the MD only allows 2nd generation digital copies, but at least they were wise enough to realize that people were going to make copies whether they liked it or not, so they might as well make it easy. Mind you, CD burners weren't popular then (99ish) but it just seemed to me like the fundamental assumptions about people's music habits concerning digital technology was very different.

What drives me crazy about these stupid "copy protection" mechanisms that simply prevent playing on a computer is that it is COMPLETELY USELESS! Come on people, it's DIGITAL. It only takes one person with a good quality sound card, or the means of circumventing the "protection" and the world can be flooded with MP3s. It solves NOTHING, except that nagging problem you had with satisfied customers.

Pointless

[brunes69]

Just for fun, I loaded up qtella and ran a quick "Celine Dion New Day" search on audio. Sure enough, the whole album showed up.

Trivial workaround (and the *real * agenda)

[fanatic]

1. cable line-out of CD player to line-in of computer.
2. start analog to digital software on computer (I like wavrec)
3. play cd
4. encode to mp3
5. upload the fuck out of that thing

Oh, yeah, copy protection will keep this of the Internet. Right.

This is just cover for the real agenda: to convince people that they don't own what they just paid for, and must have the RIAA's permission to use it.

Pay per play is the ultimate goal and this is just a step in that direction.

Re:Trivial workaround (and the *real * agenda)

[Rogerborg]

• This is just cover for the real agenda: to convince people that they don't own what they just paid for, and must have the RIAA's permission to use it

Why would they need to convince us, when the real agenda is to strongarm the CBDTPA through (by showing that schemes like this are trivially breakable) and change the game forever?

In case you missed it, the CBDTPA recognises the digital-analog-digital weakness, and intends to address it. That means no more analog inputs or outputs. Yes, we're talking no more 3.5mm jacks, we're talking expensive digital microphones that are deliberately crippled so it's not even worth recording speaker-to-microphone. It's appalling, it's unthinkable, and it's coming to a democracy near you real soon now. :(

Re:Trivial workaround (and the *real * agenda)

[Azog]

Or, an even better all-digital solution:

1. Run a good cable from the SPDIF out of your CD player to the SPDIF in of sound card (1)
2. Start digital recording software on PC that came with sound card
3. play cd track by track, splitting recording into tracks on computer
4. Encode tracks to .ogg
5. Add to your .ogg jukebox music collection
6. If in Canada, you can legally burn copies for your friends, that's what the levy on blank CD's is paying for.

(1) I recommend the MAudio Audiophile 2496 sound card. It is well supported by the Linux ALSA drivers, comes with some good software for Windows, and has complete override ability for the SPDIF copy control system. Also, the onboard 24-bit 96 Khz analog to digital converters are very good, if you ever need to do an analog rip.

Why break the Redbook standard?

[gblues]

Okay, given that a properly encoded MP3 (e.g. lame --r3mix <infile.wav> <outfile.mp3>) has been proven to be indistinguishable from the source material in double-blind tests, I have a better means of protecting CD content:

• Encode the source material into high-quality MP3.
• Decode the resulting MP3s back into .WAV format.
• Use the WAV files to create the master.
• Press copies of the master and distribute to retail.

This way there is negligible quality loss, and even perfect CD rips will still sound like ass when re-encoded into MP3. More importantly, the CD does not lose functionality!

Nathan

Sony is or isn't liable?

[teamhasnoi]

If I have some documents open and try to play this 'CD' (not a CD! and it damn well better have a warning label ON the disc!), and said disc crashes my computer, making me lose data, is Sony liable? If they are, I see some $$$ coming my way. (and yours, and his, and hers, and ....)

BTW. Why put copy protection on this disc? Really, honestly, how many people who actively participate in file sharing (ripping, encoding, and sharing) are going to listen to Celine Dion? I was under the impression that most P2P users were somewhere in the age bracket of 15-30, and male..I may be mistaken, but that's my understanding from following all this..

So why then? I'm guessing that this is an attempt by the RIAA to say, "Look! Copy Protection works! There are 'x' number of copies of Celine floating around the net. Without Copy Protection there would be many more. If we compare it to the latest Nickleback album, you see that copy protection works! This is why Senator Holling's bill is genius! " This is the argument that the RIAA will take to Congress in order to get the SSSCA passed.

Go and buy this disc. Rip it in ANY manner. Make it the MOST shared disc EVER. GIVE copies away to all who WOULD have bought it. Return it to the store. Repeat.

Of course, this would probably end up being the argument then: "See! We NEED Hardware Copy Protection! We tried to keep them from this disc and they broke the protection!"

The answer, then, is to not buy OR listen to music from the RIAA. Explore unsigned bands! THINK! Has your life improved because of Creed's newest album? Where would you be if you had never heard it? If the RIAA sells nothing, and has no pirate to rail against, where are they? Gone. And, you are also helping out artists who deserve your attention, and are not part of the Media Industry.

Gaaarrrr! I'm gettin a beer.

Re:Sony is or isn't liable?

[Rogerborg]

• The answer, then, is to not buy OR listen to music from the RIAA

Uh, I thought you'd spotted the pattern after your first two excellent points. If RIAA member revenue drops off, that too will be used to strongarm the CBDTPA (not SSSCA, dammit) through, because how the hell are independent bands going to be able to demonstrate that the revenue has moved to them? As far as the RIAA / Congress / Senate / mainstream press would be concerned, the only story would be "RIAA revenues plummet! End of civilisation as we know it!" We're damned if we do, damned if we don't, and damned if we don't care.

Re:Sony is or isn't liable?

[teamhasnoi]

Ironically, I almost put,We're damned if we do, damned if we don't, and damned if we don't care. as the last line... :)

I agree with you, and not to bring up the old chestnut analogy of the buggy whip manufacturers, but what do we do? Sadly, I am a musician (period :) and am caught in this whole mess more than your average mp3'er. Do I kill myself to put out music, that thanks to the RIAA, I won't be able to distribute by any channel, other than 'approved' copy-protected methods? Is it even possible for an independent musician to make a buck at this? Make it difficult enough to create, distribute, and who will bother? This is how they will 'own' all 'content', and how we will be stuck with lowest common denominator pap. Frankly, it makes me ill.

Crashing cars

[TheMCP]

All joking aside, my father's new car's engine is computer-controlled... along with everything else in the car. He tells me even the radio and CD player are both controlled through the touch screen control console.

I don't know how they're running the audio, and I don't know what they're using for software, but really I think I'd better email him a link to this article.

Re:Crashing cars

[RFC959]

The ECU that controls things like spark timing and fuel delivery is a real-time controller running on hardware totally separate from anything that will ever be interacted with by the driver ever.

Hopefully. I have horrible visions of some beancounter at an automaker saying "Hey, why are we putting two totally independent computer systems in our cars? Let's roll them into one and save money!"

Re:Dearest Michael

[Reality Master 101]

The reason that major news organizations such as CNN, Newsweek, etc., all preface "Osama Bin Laden" with the phrase "alleged terrorist" instead of "terrorist" is that if you publish something you cannot prove, as a news organization, you can be held liable for the result.

Sort of. The reason they do that is to protect themselves from libel, as in calling someone a criminal who has yet to tried in court of law. That can be very damaging to someone's reputation.

When Slashdot publishes as fact the point that Celine Dion's CD is cause for a no-lose lawsuit against Sony, that could be a potentially bad situation. What's the source? Is it opinion? It's stated as fact!

There's a reason that they are called "legal opinions". There no such thing as a "legal fact".

Be that as it may, this is totally different from protecting oneself from libel. Guess what -- the first Amendment gives you the right to say just about anything you want, including factually untrue statements, as long as you are not damaging another person or entity. Is Michael representing himself as a lawyer? No, he is not. He's stating his opinion. Who is he damaging here? Someone might believe that he's a lawyer and file a lawsuit? Without getting any further legal advice from a real lawyer? Doubtful.

Yeah, I can just imagine that courtroom scene: "Your honor, I was visiting a geek web site, and one of the editors said that this was a no-lose case! Well, no, it isn't a web site about legal issues. Well, no, he wasn't a laywer. Well, no, I didn't talk to any qualified attorneys, I just filed the case myself. Well, yes, the site does have a history of posting editorials about various stories."

Sheesh, and you call me a troll.

Whats the big deal?

[CrasHUV]

Windows has been crashing my computers for years... so whats wrong with one Celine CD doing the same? At least they are telling you upfront. I have yet to find the label on Win98 that says the same.

Jogging, not cars

[yerricde]

The reason that cassettes are still available is that people like to listen to music in their cars.

Not cars. As lucifuge31337 said, any car CD player over $50 should handle bumps well. The same can't be said for pocket CD players. No matter how big your pocket CD player's buffer is, it won't be able to buffer over 10 minutes of jogging. A pocket tape player is also much cheaper than a MiniDisc recorder or an MP3 player.

In any case, part of what I was saying was that the 'new media' would be a higher quality than CD.

No. Quality is not a linear function of signal-to-noise ratio or frequency because the ear has limits to what it can hear. The recording industry will have a hard time convincing the audio-enlightened that their new format has higher fidelity than good old CD Audio. A well-mastered CD has 120 dB dynamic range in 20-16000 Hz and decent dynamic range above that because modern mastering techniques shove all the dither noise into the high frequencies (16-22 kHz) where the human ear is not nearly as sensitive. (Look up "noise shaping" on Google to see how.)

Re:Jogging, not cars

[~roman]

A well-mastered CD has 120 dB dynamic range

eh, 20*log(2^16) = 96.3 dB

Look up "noise shaping" on Google to see how

Do not use Google, but calculator and brain (sometimes they do better job than pigeons...)

Re:Dearest Michael

[mwalker]

Why does Monster.com have a boilerplate policy which clearly states that their statements are not to be interpreted as legal advice? They're just a techie-oriented career site... why would they be worried?

Michael's statements are the exact sort of damning legal advice Monster is trying to protect itself from. Your statement was designed to inflame reasonable people who have a clue. Yes I call you a Troll, and you can giggle at me for replying all you want, ma'am.

These CDs *can* hose XP

[kawika]

The errors that the CD causes are interpreted by XP as a failure of the drive, so it permanently turns off DMA in the hopes that will make the drive usable. Here's an informative Usenet post about the problem. So Sony is wrong when they say the CD "...will not alter anything."

Reasonable person test

[coyote-san]

Despite what the lawyers want you to think, almost anything you do still has to pass a "reasonable person" test.

Would a reasonable person expect a CD purchased (or received as a gift) to destroy a computer that has successfully played hundreds of other CDs? Of course not, they won't even read the disclaimer, and if they do they will interpret "may not play in computers" as "it may play in computers, why don't you give it a try" not as "will cause temporary or permanent damage."

In other words, that disclaimer is worthless at best, and an active inducement to try playing it in vulnerable hardware at worse.

As for your example, there's the same issue with the reasonable person test. Bigots may think they can identify homosexuals at a glance, but they can't and that policy is both unenforceable and arbitrarily enforced against innocent parties.

Re:Reasonable person test

[Rogerborg]

• Despite what the lawyers want you to think, almost anything you do still has to pass a "reasonable person" test.

True, but bear in mind that if it comes to court, you have a civil case against them for damages, but they can ask what you were doing trying to circument a copy protection device, which (thanks to the DMCA) is a criminal offence. Nice piece of blackmail the gubmint's handed them there.

Sony Executive Meeting

[Asparfame]

Exec #1: We have a problem! People prefer pirating music over buying our CDs. What shall we do?

Exec #2: Idea! Let's sell them less-functional CDs for the same price!!!

I'm tired of CD's

[n2dasun]

They cost too much, especially thinking of how much cd media costs, and all this copy protection talk is pretty tiresome. I always go to Cheap CD's to find the track listing and some sound samples, then go to Audiogalaxy if it sounds interesting, so I can listen to all the songs before I decide if I want to purchase it. I hate paying for filler material. I want songs that were made because the artist wanted to make it and put some heart into it, not something they had to cook up to finish the album. I'm threw with fattening up record execs just by doing(IMHO) the right thing and purchasing cd's.

I think the folks at Fairtunes have the right idea. Check out this link I got from their faq to see how much artists actually get from these cd sales.

Re:I don't think so

[ColaMan]

Firmware isn't as 'firm' as you think.

Most cd-drives have firmware that is upgradeable, similar to the BIOS in your PC. Mainly to fix or work around the bugs that they didn't see at the factory.

For example, I upgraded the firmware on my DVD drive because it didn't do DMA properly when it came out, but a firmware upgrade fixed it.

It's pretty unlikely that it would cause firmware corruption though. It is possible however to "crash" your firmware , so that it ends up in an unknown state (it's unknown, because the damn drive just sits there, and there aint no monitor or keyboard directly attached to your CD drive to see what went wrong).

Most likely, with a corrupted CD, all you get is a drive that spends 10 minutes trying to find a table of contents that makes sense. This (esp in windows machines) means 10 minutes of waiting for your cursor to respond, or rebooting.

A little on the anti-social side for Sony though.

Please Let It Be True!

[Robber Baron]

"According to Yahoo!, Celine Dion's latest CD will not play in computer drives.

Oh God...Please let it be true!

Re:Please Let It Be True!

[pressman]

The real trick would be for her new CD to not play in ANY cd players at all!

Time for a boycott.

[MacOSXHead]

If you could get 20% of the buying public to swear off buying CDs for one month, I would bet you would see a swift about face in the music industry.

We have the economic weapon. Let's use it!

If I can't get it on-line, I ain't gettin' it.

[crovira]

And considering the crap they push at us, I ain't missin' a thing am I? I've bought all the music I'm ever going to. It ain't worth what they're charging.

It can be on vinyl, CD or MP3, at some point, quality get so low you don't want to play/hear it. Long before that, the content is so lousy, you can't be bothered to listen.

The argument against MP3s is totally bogus. I hear music in bars (noisy drunks,) and in elevators and shopping malls. (gag.)

At some point you have go into a "media outlet" to ask the underpaid, surly, pimply-faced, badly-dressed little twerp at the counter 'neath the poster for the "Bad/naughty/virginal/sassy Bitch" "du jour": "Do you feel lucky punk? Well do you? 'Cause your music sucks and the bubble-head/butt/tits hanging over your head doesn't look like she knows which end to suck on."

You want a prediction? The increase in unit price will be inversely proportional to the sales volume. In two years, CDs will go for forty bucks a pop (and it will be pop pap,) and then Mr. Edison's little talking machine will be quiet. At last.

Music is merely the least unpleasant noise.

I'm confused...

[Crag]

Are you saying that in the conversion

wav -> mp3 -> wav -> mp3

that the second mp3 stage will be at a distinctly lower quality than the first mp3 stage? Is there discussion of this somewhere that you can point me to?

Re:I'm confused...

[gblues]

The transition I outline is Original -> MP3 -> WAV -> CD. Even with a perfect digital extraction from this CD, they are still getting the waveform that has already been through the MP3 encoding process once. The MP3 encoding process throws away inaudible frequencies ("inaudible" being determined by the encoder's psycho-acoustic model). This means that the second encoding process has to throw away audible frequencies, resulting in audible compression artifacts.

There is lots of excellent information on creating high-quality MP3 files at www.r3mix.net.

Nathan

Re:I'm confused...

[autopr0n]

This means that the second encoding process has to throw away audible frequencies, resulting in audible compression artifacts.

No it dosn't. In theory a good encoder could reproduce, bit for bit (or extremly close) the mp3 file at the first stage, in other words it dosn't have to throw away anything because all of the data would fit into a compressed format.

CDDA? Phillips?

[acoustix]

So does this CD have the CDDA logo on it?

If it does then by the agreement that Sony signed with Phillips (to use the CDDA logo) the CD has to be able to play IN ANY DEVICE THAT HAS THE CDDA LOGO on it.

right?

Re:This reminds me.

[pressman]

Think! Think, man! I know that on the surface it seems like the right thing to do, but all it will get you is some Celine Dion MP3's! Don't do it!

Celeen Deeon != Musician

[TheTomcat]

Attention Celine Dion and all musicians

Kudos for not mistaking Céline Dion for a musician. (-:

S

At least part of it makes sense

[flacco]

Figures they'd use an irrelevant emaciated hag's music to float this trial balloon.

Works for me...

[strangel]

I'm currently listening to this cd on my pc... works like every OTHER cd I own...tested on a Samsung SW-408B CD-RW drive and a Samsung SD-608 DVD drive. No problems.
Are you sure all of them are protected?
I tried it in WinAmp, Roxio EZ CD Creator, and even Windows Media Player...if it doesn't crash WMP, I think it's safe to say it's not gonna crash anything :P
Perhaps I got lucky? Can anyone verify?

Jim

Re:Works for me...

[Anonymous Freak]

Did you buy the european version of the CD? As stated in the story, only SOME european versions of it are this way. The American verison isn't crippled. (Yet.)

Is this a troll?

[autopr0n]

You only stated that raw->mp3 dosn't lose quality, but you havn't given any information in regards to raw->mp3->raw->mp3 as sounding 'like ass'. Where is the evidence that it would?

Re:Is this a troll?

[gblues]

The same reason that a JPEG file converted to raw raster data (e.g. BMP), then re-converted to JPEG will not look identical to the original JPEG file.

Different encoders have different frequency analysis patterns. If you take an MP3 encoded by LAME, convert it to PCM, then encode that PCM back to MP3 using Xing or Fraunhofer, the encoder will analyse the signal differently. Since the original MP3 already has the inaudible frequencies removed, any information removed by the alternate codec will be audible.

In fact, using the same encoder with different settings will have the same effect. The only way you would possibly get the exact same MP3 back would be to use the exact same encoder with the exact same settings used to create the initial MP3. There is no way to get of this information from any kind of analysis on the waveform.

Nathan

Because nobody would buy it

[RelliK]

The installed base of CDs is just too huge. CDs provide excellent quality sound so any further improvement is be superficial (*). So if the new media provides no advantages, consumers will not be so eager to buy the new players which will not be compatible with their existing CD collection. The music industry (err, I mean "the copyright industry", as Jack Valenti recently described it) simply cannot force the consumers to switch to the new media and they know it. CDs will remain the de facto standard for years to come. (**)
Think before you post.

(*) I am sure some audiophile will claim that CDs don't sound right. I am talking about the normal people here (you know, like 99% of the audience, the once who listen to the music not the sound).

(**) I think the only thing that can change that is a massive switch to online distribution of music, in which case the question of media becomes moot. It remains to be seen how well this will play out. And for some reason I don't have a good feeling about it... hmmm wonder why? Probably something to do with the copy control crap.

Re:that could work...

[gblues]

The test was performed by c't, a German magazine. The article is here, although the results summary is available in English in the "Quality" section of r3mix.net (r3mix does not allow deep linking).

This is why I say "properly encoded," because half the work is using the right encoder with the right settings. If you use Xing, the MP3s will sound like crap no matter what settings you use. :) The short version is, use new versions of LAME with the --r3mix alias. :)

Nathan

Does this change anything?

[simmonsays]

Sony just doesn't get it. There are plenty of ways to copy a CD (RCA output anybody?) It only takes one digital copy to work itself around a P2P network. Despite this 'protection', I was able to run a quick search on Kazaa that pulled up the entire album.... not that she is even worth my bandwidth

That's the end of Australian Copy-machines

[famazza]

Well, this is the Sony's answer to the Public CD Copy Machine. Have you ever believe that this will be unanswerd?

Innocent morons will try to duplicate Dion's CD and will actually being crashing every Copy-machine in Australia!

I should have known from the start!

Sony Shooting themselves in the feet

[Vryl]

Does anyone else think that Sony et al are shooting themselves in the feet here?

I mean, they are making a product that is LESS useful than what you can get on the net. So, if I want to hear artist X on my PC, I can't. I am forced to go to the net to download an 'unauthorised copy'.

This copy has greater utility than the Sony offering. I can copy it, burn it to CD that will play on my PC, or my CD player, play with it, share it etc etc

This is a form of madness. They are creating demand for P2P networks and filesharing with this policy.

Re:Sony Shooting themselves in the feet

[Rogerborg]

• This is a form of madness. They are creating demand for P2P networks and filesharing with this policy

Yes, and follow that through. These guys aren't idiots. The more they can demonstrate that Evil Hackers are ripping their stuff, damaging the economy and destabilising the Free World, the easier it gets to shove the CBDTPA through. When that happens, all bets are off.

Headline: Sony releases new Celine Dion Virus

[JWSmythe]

New York, NY (AP) -- Sony releases Celine Dion Virus.

Sony Music Entertainment Corporation was today found guilty of releasing an audio compact disc (commonly known as CD), which has been found to intentionally cause personal computers to operate erratically or completely fail to operate ("crash" in computer lingo).

Federal Authorities find the New York based company guilty of cyberterrorism. Repeated contacts to Sony's various divisions returned the official statement of "No Comment."

In related news, Microsoft has announced today that it's newest product, Windows XYZ, touted as the best version of Windows every, will be released to the public tommorrow. Beta testers around the world report that it protects users against the Celine Dion Virus. Federal authorities are investigating Microsoft for Anti-DMCA charges relating to the reverse engineering of Sony's software.

Re:Don't compare me to Sony.

[NewtonsLaw]

Mostly because I don't know what the hell a piss-up is.

Piss-up noun. antepodean coloquialism.
Party, festivity involving the copious consumption of alcoholic libations. Named because of the after-effects of such activities: ie: to piss-up against the wall.

Re:Dearest Michael

[Reality Master 101]

Why does Monster.com have a boilerplate policy [monster.com] which clearly states that their statements are not to be interpreted as legal advice? They're just a techie-oriented career site... why would they be worried?

Two reasons: 1) Legal paranoia to head off nusiance suits, and 2) Because they're not a techie-oriented career site; they are a career job searching site with original articles giving career advice. Since it's a career site, there is a reasonable expectation that advice on the site is given by experts in career counseling.

Exactly what sort of expert advice does one expect at Slashdot, a tech-oriented news digest?

Michael's statements are the exact sort of damning legal advice Monster is trying to protect itself from.

No, because there is no reasonable expectation of expert opinion at Slashdot. It's a news digest.

And expert opinion isn't even enough in most cases. Put it this way: If Tom Brokaw publishes a news editorial that it's his opinion that it's safe to travel in the middle east, and I go ahead and travel and am seriously injured, can I sue Brokaw for giving a bad opinion? That would be a big fat NO, even though there IS a reasonable expectation that he is an expert and would know these things. It's called freedom of speech.

Your statement was designed to inflame reasonable people who have a clue. Yes I call you a Troll, and you can giggle at me for replying all you want, ma'am.

Just because I'm smarter than you doesn't make me a troll. :)

You wouldn't have a choice

[Sycraft-fu]

I buy everything on credit card. So I decide to return the CD. You say no. I'll drop it on your counter and walk out of the store. When I get home, I write a letter to the bank issuing the card stating that I'm not paying the charge. Guess what? As the law requires they will block this charge and I won't pay a dime. Your only recourse is to sue me in small claims court, however given that I did actually give you the CD back, it's doubtful you'd even get anything if you did.

Online retailers don't state disability

[ejoe_mac]

Just to prove a point, I have looked at both Amazon and CDNow's sites and neither one state that the disk won't play on a computer. So I can buy it online, but can't play it on my desktop.

BTW - Has anyone tried to play this on a console system? I can see it crashing a XBox just because of the underlying OS.

It worked for big Tobacco, didn't it?

[geoswan]

...any company could take away consumer's rights by just issuing warnings. What if I opened up a store with a big sign out front stating, "Warning! ...

I don't have time right now to cite actual court cases, but it seems to me that consumers have basic rights, and that companies have to have damn good reasons for taking them away.

Isn't that what the Tobacco companies are arguing? Their packs of smokes have warnings on them, so they are not responsible when those who "enjoy" their products get cancer?

Some have suggested that Big Tobacco has had a deep, long term strategy, and that the objections they made to carrying the warnings, a decade or two ago, were just for show. This suggestion is that they anticipated all kinds of lawsuits, and wanted a decade or more of warnings to absolve them of responsibility.

Goedel, Escher, Bach

[connorbd]

To anyone who hasn't read this, go to your nearest bookstore (or just order it from Amazon) and get a copy of Goedel, Escher, Bach by Douglas Hofstadter. There is a whole chapter on the subject of albums called "I Cannot Be Played On Record Player X". Rather funny in its frustrating repetitiveness.

/Brian

This just in: C�line's thoughts on this!

[Scrameustache]

I just saw Céline and her manger/husband on TV speak of this (lucky me, I was zapping around on tv and just stumbled on a rerun of her press conference).

It was mostly René Angelil doing the talking (the manager/husband), and he was...not clear.

What he said is that the CDs sold in europe can break your computer (to wich Céline said "Ouch, that's gonna cost 'em"), its only sold that way in europe, for now, but might come to america soon. Then he said there are two sides to this story, the first part is that music makes you feel a lot of emotions are is very important in people's lives and not everyone can afford CDs because they are a bit expensive, especially for teenagers. The second part is that authors and singers and producers need to get paid, and the big companies meet every year and they are working on technology for music that can be downloaded that will get paid for, but the technology isn't ready. So in europe they are much more agressive, but this technology might come to america soon.

So, he's not being clear at all...and this is loosely translated from french, but that's pretty much what they said about it.

So, to summerise: These copy-protected CDs might break their fan's computer, and they feel this is harsh. They wished that people could listen to their emotionally-charged songs for free, but they want to get paid.

So...if people actually PAY for the CDs, its ok to break their expensive computers?

Shit, now I am scared

[keymygrip]

I don't think I will buy another CD. I don't want their crap breaking my machine. From now on it is straight rips so I don't have to worry about damaging my hardware.

Re:But wouldn't screw other things?

[MsGeek]

Of course if you play it in your PS2 or Sony DVD player and it screws it up, well then my neighbor, I would think you would have Sony by the Shorthairs.

Ah...and what if the CD fux0red your shiny new VAIO?

Be afraid, Sony. Be very afraid.

I only know about Mac's

[WildBeast]

Apparently the CD will delete some Mac OS system files, that's what I heard from the news. They didn't say anything about Windows or Linux yet.

Re:MINAL

[Dyolf Knip]

Except there is no reason why one should douse oneself in gasoline. CD's are meant to be played in CD-ROMs. If one uses a product exactly as the standard says it should be used, and it still screws up...

But as has been pointed out, these are not, strictly speaking, audio CD's. Someone suggested we techies start reffering to them as "Crapio" CDs. Might start a trend.

My advice would be for record stores to print out a bunch of stickers that say "This CD has been deliberately damaged by the manufacturer and will destroy a computer!" and stick them on all of these copy-prevented labels. Make it glarish and totally unavoidable. People won't be buying them, but then they won't be buying and returning them either.

But of couse they usually get money from returned CD's anyway so it'll probably never happen.

OpenFirmware...

[MsGeek]

"On the German discussion boards at MacFixit, Mac users claim that the CD will not eject using normal methods and that the intentional corruption of the disc's session data could unpredictably affect the drive's firmware." But Sony said that the firmware problem is not real.

If the "firmware" they are talking about is OpenFirmware, then yes, this is a real and nasty problem. OpenFirmware is the Mac's bootloader. It exists whether you run MacOS X, Classic MacOS, or even Linux on Mac. It lives in FLASH ROM. It is VITAL to a New World Mac...if that gets fux0red you have a very shapely, very cute DOORSTOP until an Apple Authorized Service Center REFLASHES the ROM.

This is the Audio CD equivalent of the Chernobyl virus.

Re:OpenFirmware...

[mpe]

This is the Audio CD equivalent of the Chernobyl virus.

Is this another issue of one rule for real people and another for large corporates? I somehow can't see the US government adding Sony Music to it's "Axis of Evil(tm)".

Re:OpenFirmware...

[Ryan Amos]

No, the firmware they're referring to is that of the drive. CD and DVD drives have firmware as well, and these are usually user-flashable. In the case of DVD drives, it usually contains what region the drive is (thus you can often make a drive all-region if you have the correct firmware patch.) So if it fucks up your drive, you just re-flash it. Granted, this is a pain in the ass, but it's not catastrophic.

Open Firmware in fact is rather hard to overwrite. You really have to try (read: know what you're doing) to do it. I've fucked around with OF a good deal, enough do know you're not going to destroy it beyond repair without knowing full well that you could. It's like a PC BIOS, the only way to wreck it is to flash it with the wrong flashfile (and the flashers usually have checks to make sure you don't do this.) Check what you're talking about before you get all hysterical about this. It's not very nice, but it's no Chernobyl.

Perfectly legal

[jeti]

He seems to be a UK citizen. The protected CD is only sold in Europe.

So how could the DMCA possibly apply?

Actually, the can use the logo

[XNormal]

This "protection" mechanism violates the CDROM standards but is fully compliant with CDDA standars.

Re:Does it crash Linux? ;)

[BigBlockMopar]

We tried out with a similar copy protected CD on a Linux box. It doesn't play. If you try to make a CD image using cdread the task hangs and you have to kill it.

Icky.

The problem is that the computer CD drive obviously tries to find out what sort of CD you have inserted and since this CD is not fulfilling any standard it fails.

Can this not be solved simply by forcing the CD-ROM drive to treat it like an ordinary CD? I know less than nothing about device programming, so can you even toss instructions like this across IDE/SCSI? Work around the drive's on-board disc type detection?

I used Napster to audition music prior to purchase. Since the RIAA shut down Napster, I've stopped CD shopping. Now it looks like I'll be giving The Sony Store a big miss, too. Pity for them - I was in the market for a new Digital VHS VCR for the living room.

Re:OT: Dub Pistols

[red5]

Yah Dub pistols were a bad example.
There on the blade 2 soundtrack and the game frequency on PS2.
Still a good band though ;)

Intentional Harm? Ooh yeah.

[MsGeek]

It's worse...the accusation is that the CD fux0rs Open Firmware which is a "New World" Mac's BIOS. Basically this CD is the Chernobyl Virus for Macs. By "New World" I mean iMac, iBook, G3 Blue and White, and all G4 Macs.

That's a lot of Macs which could be rendered useless...consider all the iMacs that have been sold.

The Consumer Society

[krmt]

Oopsie, the RIAA didn't stay on the ball, and now their business model that THEY CREATED is turning against them.

Very true, although I think it might be even bigger than that. It's not just the business model that the RIAA created, it's the model that all of society has created for us. It's like that one (great) .sig around... "I'm not merely a consumer or taxpayer. I am a citizen of the United States." Well, we're looked at as just that... consumers. We have been trained extensively to consume shit. It's not about buying things, or else they'd call us "customers". No... we're consumers, we're meant to suck up as much as they give us and beg for more. This is the way to sell us more crap than if we were merely meant to buy it. Consuming it gives us motivation to buy more and more.

The problem is that the model has totally backfired here. We've been programmed to consume so much that we're all doing it far too well for them now. We can consume and consume and consume all we want now without them acting as our (drug) dealers. We're not taught to buy our stuff, we're taught to devour it. Hence, no one sees any problem with not buying CD's because we've been taught that the purpose is not to buy as much as we can, but to have as much as we can. This is why people fill up their hard drives with MP3's and movies and why my roomate has cases and cases full of burned CD's.

I think this also explains why companies are more focused on regaining control than on increasing sales. Rather than add extras to the CD's to make them worth buying, or dropping the price, they try to regain control of access. It's stemming consumption at will that matters. Before it was good enough to control what bands got promoted via radio. Then it was MTV. Now it's bigger than that. Because people can download whatever they can make their own playlists. Granted, a lot of it is the stuff that the record companies are pushing heavily, but a lot of it is stuff they wouldn't expect, like older favorites that aren't the flavor of the month. Suddenly radio and MTV doesn't hold as much sway any more, and their control is weakened. At the end of the day, this is what it's about. It's not so much about profit in itself, but about control, because control guarantees profit.

We've all been trained too well, including the RIAA themselves. We've all been brainwashed in to consuming everything. The RIAA has been brainwashed the same way, which is why they're so focused on the control aspect. Finding ways to increase sales would suit them better than what they're doing. Unfortunately, I doubt they'll see the light until someone stands up and shows it to them with a spreadsheet and a stock quote.

I don't think your logic is valid.

[Crag]

I'll have to check out the link, but...

Yes, wav -> mp3 will throw out "inaudible" data.

mp3 -> wav will not put that data back in.

wav (minus inaudible) -> mp3 will NOT throw anything away because the wav is already has less information than the original wav. That is, nothing needs to be thrown away to make the data fit into 128kbits/s or 192kbits/s or whatever. That is, since the information was lost the first time it doesn't need to be lost again.

What am I missing?

Re:I don't think your logic is valid.

[ddent]

Unfortunately, codecs these days aren't as good as that. They throw away different data. Try running DV through the codec at the exact same settings a few times to see what I mean. (believe it or not, DV is lossy, at a compression of about 5:1).

Re:Windows - NO what about Linux?

[grahamm]

It plays fine on my Linux system at home (in the DVD drive). Occasionally when it loads it claims that all the tracks are data with length 0, but re-inserting the CD cures this. But it will not play on my standalone DVD player.

Fabulous way to encourage me not to buy

[Perianwyr Stormcrow]

If I'm under the impression that even trying to rip a CD is going to fiddle badly with some element of my machine's configuration, does anyone think I'll purchase the CD? Hell no, I'll hit IRC first.

This is what we call A BRILLIANT PLAN.

Cutting nose off to spite the face.

[downundarob]

Well it seems that the new single will NOT be played on the radio station I volunteer at. If we are not able to make the (leaglly permitted) ethereal recording of the CD and encode it on the the digital playsystem used in the studio, then it wont go to air. Simple as that really.

No air play, no publicity:
no publicity, no sales.

funny?

[leuk_he]

Am i missing something? Why would you want to do this?

1. Make rippable cd's ?
For some strange reason the music industry wants the opposite? If you really want to help this why not add a bonus cd that contains all the mp3's and a videoclip that plays on PC/DVD. CD's are cheap to produce!
2. Provide previews of a cd on a web site.
mp3.com wants to get the mp3 on the web for you
3. Why not just stick to the standard?
Your 5 year old ripping software is the best when offered standard cd's.

4."sounds like ass"
I don't (want to) know what your ass sounds like.

This protection prevents listening on regular HiFi

[Anonymous Coward]

On:

http://www.cdmediaworld.com/hardware/cdrom/cd_prot ections_key2audio.shtml

Is this quote:

A digital-2-digital (digital CD output to digital CD-Recorder/MD input) generates an "Copy Prohibit" or "Cannot Copy" error message!

I have a HiFi system which delivers digital data to the ampiflier, which has a DSP processor (all modern A/V receivers are like this). This way I avoid introducing the noise/distorsions through audio cables between CD player and ampifiler, and also let the ampifiler process the digital signal better than CD player would do.

I use all normal HiFi components, and just use the digital connection between them through optical cable between my CD player and my ampiflier.

In short, the disk with stated protection wouldn't play on my HiFi system. Note: I don't use any computer.

And that is not stated on the sticker. Fantastic reason to buy, open and return the opened disk to the store.

At the end, Sony'd have to put on the sticker something like:

"this disk won't play on Mac, PC and on digital HiFi systems"

CD disk which you can't play on digital HiFi systems -- only on analog ones -- it's really a good buy. ;>

Even if somebody at the moment doesn't have the system which I explained (and a lot of people can upgrade the present systems to it by just buying once optical cable), why would anybody buy a CD which wouldn't work once he improves his HiFi system?

Re:No PS2 now

[thunderbee]

Get real. Every now and then Sony does something that really pisses everyone (here at last). Then someone like you calls for a boycott and maybe two or three guys agree. A week later, Sony is out with a new slick gadget and the whole sheep pack drops all pretense of guts or political awareness and flocks back to Sony.
Same goes for Windoze. Everyone here is M$ bashing, but I bet more than 50% of the hits on slashdot are MS IE. Bah.
I'm boycotting Sony since one of their VP had his talk about stoping MP3 by all means (at the provider, at the PC, ...). I really am. Even when they have their new Clié out.
If you want to, just do it. Don't expect others to follow, and dont act only if they do, 'cause they won't.

Another warning?

[Domini]

They clearly warn the people about the possible damage to your PC CD player....

All they now need to do is ward you about the quality of the performance... anyone with the bad taste to buy Celine Dion albums deserves a crashed PC.

-sigh-

Disclaimer: I don't have a problem with the style of music, just the esceution thereof. (A Problem with the messenger, not the message...)

A shotgun is meant to ...

[leuk_he]

A shotgun is meant to hunt birds

First: if you post this at "news for nerds" you should know that a gun is more useful to Shoot yourself in the foot with a gun.

2nd: Why hunt birds? did they anything wrong for you or are you hungry?

the normal use of Celine Dion CDs will be to launch them as clay pidgeons

CD's are much to light for this. You would first have to collect some of them and mold them into a better launchabe package.

Some of the trouble with "theft"

[jbn-o]

How about, say, theft of income?

Although I disagree with the use of the propaganda term "piracy", this summary from a footnote in the landmark Diamond Rio case, the case that opened the door for portable MP3 players, is otherwise agreeable:

"Whether or not piracy causes such financial harm is a subject of dispute. Critics of the industry's piracy loss figures have noted that a willingness to download illicit files for free does not necessarily correlate to lost sales, for the simple reason that persons willing to accept an item for free often will not purchase the same item, even if no longer freely available. See Lewis Kurlantzick & Jacqueline E. Pennino, The Audio Home Recording Act of 1992 and the Formation of Copyright Policy, 45 J. Copyright Soc'y U.S.A. 497, 506 (1998). Critics further note that the price of commercially available recordings already reflects the existence of copying and the benefits and harms such copying causes; thus, they contend, the current price of recordings offsets, at least in part, the losses incurred by the industry from home taping and piracy."

To which I'd also add that even if one were to pay for the music CD, it's not clear that one would pay the publisher for it. There are venues to legally obtain the music CD without paying the publisher (public libraries and any second-hand sale) in which case multiple people can listen to the music as the music licensee but only result in one sale for the publisher. Your burger example doesn't help eludicate understanding of copyright at all. A burger cook working for someone else doesn't hold a copyright on the burgers.

The simple fact is, the result of my thinking is MY property, and I have a right to control what happens to it, be it placing it into the public domain, or selling copies of it to make money.

Too simple; simplistic, really. I'm not sure what you mean by the "result" of your thoughts, but your thoughts are not copyrightable, copyright law in the US only protects certain expression of ideas. How much control you have over that expression is not anywhere near as simple as you have made it out to be (your burger scenario, for example, would not allow me to do as I wished with the burger; sometimes there are patents that can interfere with your ability to legally distribute a work copyrighted to you). You should find the book I recommended earlier (ISBN: 0-8147-8806-8). It will painlessly get you up to speed in understanding copyright. I found it a worthwhile read and I hope you do too.

Sony's plan seems to be working..

[gsfprez]

http://homepage.mac.com/gsf/celinesucks.jpg

oh wait... never mind.. i misread the article.. i thought it said that they WANTED to see it all over the internet freely available...

my bad.. sorry.

Where is th right?

[awol]

Can someone please explain why an artist should be entitled to income from recorded music? (and for music here one can substitute "art")

Now before you all jump down my throat, think about it for a minute. Before Edison, there was no recorded music and yet artists still made a living (ok, only some of them, just like today). Perhaps many less of them, but then there were many less consumers of music. The reasons for the increase in consumers of music are many, from increased econimic capacity through to the existence of recorded music to give the consumers a taste of the material. So in at least one sense, recorded music actually is _advertising_. The problem is that supply and demand has ceased to operate. Sure demand may well be very high, but supply (without copying) is restricted without cause, that is, there is no scarcity. Well at least it is my contention that there is no scarcity and hence there should be no cost (air is free :-)

Now before you say, but how does a musician make a living, well the answer is performance. Here, supply is restricted, there are only so many tickets to venue X on Tuesday the fifteenth, so if you want to enjoy the performance you must pay. This makes good economic sense. If you are popular enough to fill a stadium then you will be rich. If not then you will be a gigging band who does pubs and cabaret and you will be poor. Just like today, except that the big bands are even richer from the misallocation of resources due to recordings.

I cannot see this arrangement continuing.

Re:Where is th right?

[J'raxis]

How do I consume recorded music? I play the CD. I listen to it. I play it again. Repeat ad nauseam. Nothing has been consumed. One can consume a concert event (once one has listened to it, its over, and it takes work to create another concert), and therefore it has economic value as a finite resource. Additionally, the basic supply-and-demand principle applies to a concert (my going to it deprived someone else), a principle that does not apply to infinitely-reproduceable and infinitely-reusable recorded music.

Additionally, your logic in the last paragraph is ridiculous. An artist expecting to get paid for their recorded music is akin to me expecting to get paid by my employer well after I quit, simply because theyre still using a piece of software I coded for them. The initial production of the work is worth something, economically speaking, and thats what I got paid for. Each subsequent use or copy is not.

Re:Where is th right?

[elflord]

a principle that does not apply to infinitely-reproduceable and infinitely-reusable recorded music.

You make the classic conceptual error all the napster types make, in confusing the recording with the music itself. I suppose this is to be expected from a crowd that by and large don't value creativity.

Of course the recording itself is infinitely reproducible, but the music is not. It takes time and effort to write, produce and record another piece of music.

The initial production of the work is worth something, economically speaking, and that's what I got paid for. Each subsequent use or copy is not.

They are getting paid for the original work. The amount they get paid depends on the number of copies sold, because this is what is used to determine the economic value of that work.

Re:Where is th right?

[awol]

"They are getting paid for the original work. The amount they get paid depends on the number of copies sold, because this is what is used to determine the economic value of that work."

NO. And there is the classic conceptual error all the IP apologists use. There is no _property_ in the original work, it cannot be bought or sold. The number of copies sold is irrelevant because they have no economic value. If a work is commissioned, then the original work is paid for. Otherwise the creation of the work is speculation by the artiste, speculation that they can perform it in concert and get paid, or gain such repute from the work's excellence that it will lead to additional commissions or even patronage (grateful dead style) when they ask for funding for their next project from the consumer.

Economic value is created by scarcity or legal fiction, not demand (unless one follows Marx's labour theory of value, but that is a whole other story). In the case of recorded music there is not technical requirement for scarcity and so it is purely the result of legal fiction. There needs to be a good public policy reason for a legal fiction (the licensing of taxicabs is an example of a legal fiction that has an, at least arguable, public policy consideration) the lining of the pockets of "copyright holders" is not one. And I know you will respond with the public policy considerations of "incentive to innovete" etc. But I (and many others) would argue that these incentives exist regardless. And even if one was not willing to concede that issue, property is _just_ one way of doing in a state sponsored way. State funded grants, would work equally well (and probably more fairly) since noone would become a super rich of such a program and so the net social utility would be higher. But the problem I have is that the IP apologist _presupposes_ that it (intellectual property) exists, that it is some kind of natural right. Well it ain't so think outside the paradigm in which you live and a world without IP might even look like a good thing.

Re:Where is th right?

[elflord]

NO. And there is the classic conceptual error all the IP apologists use. There is no _property_ in the original work, it cannot be bought or sold.

I didn't say there was "property" in the original work, I said there was economic value in the work. Most work has economic value, and most work is not "property".

The number of copies sold is irrelevant because they have no economic value.

The copies themselves have no economic value, but the sales numbers can be used to appraise the economic value of the work.

If a work is commissioned, then the original work is paid for. Otherwise the creation of the work is speculation by the artiste, speculation that they can perform it in concert and get paid,

Clearly, this is not true. The copyright system rewards artists for their work, by allowing a distributed, deferred payment system as financial incentive for their creative efforts.

Economic value is created by scarcity or legal fiction, not demand

This is not true. The work itself is clearly of economic value, because if it was not, then noone would be willing to pay money for the right to enjoy it. There is most definitely demand for it. The problem is that requiring buyers commission the work, or pay/commit to pay before the work is released, is an obstruction to purchasing it (because it increases the level of risk for the customer)

here is not technical requirement for scarcity and so it is purely the result of legal fiction.

There's simply a rule saying "no freeloaders". That seems to bug the hell out of the napster freeloaders, but that's the way it is.

Sad times..

[benmhall]

My girlfriend and I own approximately 400 CDs between the two of us. We have ripped them all, and we only ever listen to our MP3 collection. Subscribing to the excellent EMusic service has also greatly expanded our collection.

I listen occasionally listen to real audio CDs on the following devices:

• One of our PCs (all running Linux..)
• My Rio Volt
• Our Apex DVD player

This means that pretty soon I won't be able to listen to audio CDs on my own players even if I want to.

I have never used Napster (or similar services) as I think it's morally wrong and illegal. However, if I can't go out, buy an audio CD, rip it and listen to it then I consider myself forced into using one of these means to acquire the music I want.

I have absolutely no qualms with paying $20 for a CD. I always get my money out of it, provided the disc doesn't suck. Frankly, at the rate we buy CDs I don't even mind occasionally paying for a dud. I will, however, refuse to buy something I can't use.

End of story.

As has been reported ad nauseum, this does absolutely nothing to curb illegal copying of these songs. All it does is anger good customers. If I, a paying, legal customer, am going to be treated like a criminal, I may as well act the part.

So, here's my ultimatum to the recording industry: Stop this ridiculous behaviour or I will cease to be a customer. As soon as I buy a CD that I actually want (sorry Celine) and can no longer rip and listen to in MP3 form I will cease buying CDs at all and will start making use of one of these napster/kazaa/limewire type services. I don't want to do this. I still think it's illegal, I still think it's wrong, but I think that punishing all customers for the sake of a few, who will pirate anyway, is worse, not to mention a dangerous precedent. I won't stand for it.

If the record industry won't play fair neither will I. I know I'm only one person, I realize that the recording industry probably doesn't care about me, but I buy about 30 CDs a year. That's $600 they lose from me. Pretty insignificant in the big scheme, but it's all I can do. I will continue to listen to the music I want in the form I want.

Re:Sad times..

[tshak]

Disclaimer: I _HAVE_ produced a short-run CD, I _DO_ know what it takes (money, energy, talent) to produce a CD.

I have absolutely no qualms with paying $20 for a CD.

Remember when full albums where $8.99? Especially with many CD's, where only 2-3 songs are decent, I generally do not want to spend any more then $10-$11 on a CD. The last CD I bought was $14 (Chemical Brothers), and as good as it is, it wasn't worth $14. Consider this, a good DVD is $15-$20. A movie (which I also have had amateur experience with) takes a LOT more resources to develop, yet you get a 2hr movie (plus 30-45min of extras usually) for the same price OR LESS then a 60minute CD.

CD's are way too expensive.

Thank Sony to not let me play "any" CD ...

[freaker_TuC]

Thank you Sony, I buy every CD that comes out in Europe and thank you Sony, really thank you, so I do not have to listen to Celine Dion ... Thank you!

(not).

Aibo, Vaio, Hello Kitty and Those Wacky Japanese

[BigBlockMopar]

Aibo, go fetch the vaio!
Let go! Bad dog! BAD DOG!

Stupid product and a computer with a stupid name.

You know, I just don't get it. Why would you want a synthetic dog?

There's something about the Japanese culture that I just don't get. Hello Kitty is a perfect example. Why do they like Hello Kitty?

How did they get the bow to stick to Hello Kitty's ear? I tried that on my own cat, but the taper of the ear as it reached the extremity wasn't conducive to holding a bow, much like pants will be self-adjusting on the rotund. Besides, she flicked away the bow then attempted to sever my femural artery. After I got back from the emergency room, I thought about using the staple gun, but Hello Kitty doesn't appear to have pierced ears. Unfortunately, I was out of hot-melt glue sticks, so I was unable to investigate that possibility.

Why do anime characters always have two teeth? (One on top going all the way around from molar to molar, and one on the bottom going all the way around from molar to molar.) Does Japanese toothpaste include spackle, or am I missing something? Why these one-piece monolithic teeth? The monolith is a fissure-free, gap-free symbol of strength. Which is ironic from a people who have been living in one of the world's most active seismic zone and yet persist in building paper houses with stone roofs.

[sigh] I long for the good old days, when the Japanese were quiet, reserved, and Sony built battle-wagon open-reel VTRs instead of CanCon pop music CDs.

That depends on what country he's from ...

[Hektor_Troy]

In Denmark (where I'm from) it is perfectly legal for me to have digital copies of every single cd-album ever published - even if I don't own a single album.

Why?

Because the copyright law in Denmark allows me to make copies of original works - no matter who owns them. If I wanted to, I could walk down to the local library, borrow a copy of every album they have in store, go home, rip them onto my computer and return the albums - without breaking any laws in Denmark.

I can even take the copies, burn them onto CDs, and play them where ever I want to (just not to loudly, or I'll have to pay KODA/IFPI for playing music in public - stupid law). The only thing I can't do is give the copies to anyone not living with me. I can't give them as gifts, I can lend them to friends etc. But other than that, I can do just about everything I want to.

Now - I can't download music off most P2P networks, because then I'd be copying an illegal copy, and I'm not allowed to do that. But hey - I can just walk down to the local library and check out their CDs ...

How's that for fair use?

Re:That depends on what country he's from ...

[Hektor_Troy]

Having spent a considerable amount of time reading the danish copyright law, alot more time than I'd like to admit, I'm quite sure that I'm allowed to do so - allow me to quote (and translate) the apropriate paragraph of the law:

URL: http://www.kum.dk/dk/con-37_STD_2298.htm

12. Af et offentliggjort værk må enhver fremstille eller lade fremstille enkelte eksemplarer til sin private brug. Sådanne eksemplarer må ikke udnyttes på anden måde.
Stk. 2. Bestemmelsen i stk. 1 giver ikke ret til at
[...]
3) fremstille eksemplarer af edb-programmer i digitaliseret form,
4) fremstille eksemplarer i digital form af databaser, når eksemplarfremstillingen sker på grundlag af en gengivelse af databasen i digital form, eller
5) fremstille enkelte eksemplarer i digital form af andre værker, medmindre det udelukkende sker til personlig brug for fremstilleren eller dennes husstand.
Stk. 3. Bestemmelsen i stk. 1 giver ikke ret til at benytte fremmed medhjælp ved eksemplarfremstillingen, når der er tale om

1) musikværker,
2) filmværker,
[...]
Stk. 4. Bestemmelsen i stk. 1 giver ikke brugeren ret til ved eksemplarfremstilling af musikværker og filmværker at anvende teknisk udstyr, der er stillet til rådighed for almenheden på biblioteker, i forretningslokaler eller på andre offentligt tilgængelige steder.

English translation (Danish is my maternal language, but I'm pretty good at English, if I must say so myself :-)

12. From a published work anyone may create or have created single examples for their own private usage. Such examples can not be used in any other way.
Part 2. Part 1 does not allow the following:
[...]
3) creation of examples of computer-programmes in digitalized form,
4) creation of examples in digital form of databases, when the creation is based on a replication of the database in digital form, or [note - I have no idea what that's for]
5) creation of single examples in digital form of other works, unless it is exclusively for personal use for the creator or said creators household.
Part 3. Part 1 does not allow the usage of foreign help in creation, when the work is

1) music,
3) movie/film,
[...]
Part 4. Part 1 does not allow the user, when creating a copy of music and movies/films, to use technical equipment made available to the public at libraries, in buisnesses or other public areas.

12 is the interesting paragraph, as it's the only one that deals with personal usage.

Now - in no part of this paragraph (nor any other place in the law) does it state, that I can not make a copy of my own copies. I can NOT let people, that are not part of my household use the copies I make, for any reason. If I let my friend make a copy of my copy, I'm breaking the law, but if I make a copy of an original album, that I borrowed at the library, I can make a gazillion copies of my copy, as long as I don't let people outside my household use the copy.

Like I said - I've read, reread and read the danish copyright law many, many times. I've had a talk (along with a delegation from StopCopyDAN, for which I was the spokesperson) with the (now former) Danish Minister of Culture in the summer of 2001 (August 16, 14:00 to be precise, although that meeting was postponed aprox 30 mins) about the subject of levies on blank medias in Denmark. I've had a meeting with the Danish Parliments Committie of Culture two weeks later (that was August 29, at 9:30 if my memory serves me corret) about the same subject, as I discussed with the Minister of Culture. At the latter meeting the delegation I was heading (also from StopCopyDAN) handed over almost 30,000 signatures protesting the levies.

Now, I'm am not a lawyer, but unless the Minister of Culture and her civil servants are completely off track with regards to copyright law in Denmark, along with the entire Comitie of Culture, then I CAN infact make copies of my own copies (provided that my first copy was obtained lawfully).

Put that in your hat and smoke it.

Next time you go trolling, try to back your claims up with facts :-)

You were owned by
Martin Schou

I can stand up to massive amounts of Celine Dion

[Hektor_Troy]

Well ... her music anyway, 'cause to call Celine Dion "massive" would be like calling Calista Flockheart "healthy slim" ...

Anyway back to my point. I can stand up to massive amounts of Celine Dions music; I can do this for two reasons:
1) By concentrating, I can shut out almost any specific source of noise/sound
2) By using my aforementioned super power of concentration, I am also able to bring up mental images of my four favorite women (no, Celine isn't one of them) going at it in a, shall we say, fashion that leaves nothing to the imagination - though that is actually what is going on. I've tried sneaking Selma Hyak (#5 on my list) in as well, but then it goes totally screwy - I think there's a kernel panic in there somewhere ...

3) Last but not least, I actually like some of her music :-)

Computers vs. components for playing CD's

[heroine]

Is anyone complaining about playing CD's in stereo components? Not having audio CD support in PC's sucks for some users but not having audio CD support in stereo components would have sucked for a lot more users.

The warning doesn't say it will CRASH your PC

[StarmanTHX]

The disclaimer says that the CD won't work on it. To most people, this simply means that it won't work and get ejected. It DOESN'T say that it will CRASH your computer. I smell a lawsuit. Mike

Not in Canada!

[xtal]

That's just being dishonest.

If he's Canadian, he's paid for it (assuming it's CDs he copied, onto cds). If he's really honest, he can just go see the band live, where they will see a penny for their toils.

I hate to say this, but I'm going to keep banging this point into people's heads. Others should do this, too. Yes, I know it doesn't really apply to your post. In Canada, it is perfectly legal for me to possess copied works, because the government decided that they would worry about paying the artist. How about they do that isn't my problem, but for the time being, I can copy music without guilt - because I've paid a tax^h^h^hlevy on the CDs. Nothing like turning music into a public good to solve this peer to peer problem, eh. Nevermind how stupid and unworkable that is to independant artists. Or once the public is made aware of this abolution in droves, or the big kicker: If someone defends a peer-to-peer music sharing program under this law in court. That would make napster LEGAL in Canada. Oh, baby. The RIAA would riot.

This of course doesn't apply in the land of the DMCA, not to worry, we're holding (held) tribunals on what we're going to do to hop in line like good little empire citizens, too.

Cold Hearted Business View

[johnos]

From the business point of view, this is as stupid a move as a consumer oriented company could make. Anyone with an MBA and a brain in their head would come to the same conclusion.

The potential gain (avoid lost sales) is so far below the potential loss (lawsuits, internal Sony politics, losses to other Sony divisions, lost sales to pissed off consumers, lost sales due to geeks cracking the cd as a point of honor, angry artists, inter-territory grey marketing, spread of hardware workarounds, etc.) that nobody in their right mind would implement such a scheme. Which is why most companies aren't rushing to try out the technology. There is no business incentive to be a pioneer.

Also, from a strategic business point of view, when a consumer company treats its customers as criminals, then there is something far more basic than technology at work. This is the classic case of a technology that allows the expression of a nacient desire. BUT IT IS NOT A TECHNOLOGICAL PROBLEM! Its the nacient desire that is the issue. So there can be no technological solution. They do actually teach this stuff in business schools. Sony is now about to re-teach the lesson to a generation of music executives. Remember to not get too pissed off and enjoy the fun.

I'm with you.

[Uttles]

While I don't agree about the legality of Napster-like schemes, I do agree that the minute I buy a CD that is non functional, or heaven forbid they actually make one "pay per play," I will stop buying CD's for good. This latest trend of controlling what people can do with the music they buy is ridiculous, and it's going to piss more people off than the amount of revenue it will create. The thing that all of these idiots in the recording industry don't realize is that sharing music in mp3 format, or just being able to convert your purchased cd's to mp3, has only served as a catalyst for music purchases. These new policies and "encryption" (I would say hacking) schemes are only going to drive customers away.

Somebody should print up better warning stickers

[Fastolfe]

Somebody should go print up a bunch of stickers that informs users more completely about the wrongs of this CD. Something like:

"Warning: This music disc is not a real 'CD' (note the lack of a CD logo) and WILL NOT PLAY on many players. Purchase at your own risk."

Then go into your local music stores and slap them on every one of these CD's you can find. :)

This also causes statistics to become tainted

[Fastolfe]

In the past, the music industry has been able to say, "Look, we have millions of downloads going on here where people are downloaded illegal pirated versions of our music!" Now that they're making it impossible for us to legally purchase music and listen to it on computing devices and players, we have to go download it instead. The percentage of those downloads that are for legally purchased music will go up. They can no longer say that most (if not all) of those downloads are for music the downloader shouldn't have.

Is it illegal to "redistribute" a copyrighted work to somebody that already has a license to it?

Piracy is being used for ulterior purposes

[Jeppe Salvesen]

Piracy is giving the music business an excuse to do evil, wicked things to our rights. By emphasizing abuse, they are making the argument that they are doing this in order to protect themselves. They show no willingness to look for alternatives, and those they do attempt to launch seem toothless and are quite expensive in comparison to the distribution costs.

Really. The record store, transportation and physical media costs are eliminated. Granted, there is an introduced per-transaction cost for paying for the goods (you usually have the cash-option), but their prices are still too expensive.

Instead of using the new medium, they are fighting it. Look at what the MPAA did concerning the VCRs. They fought it. All the way. It was a dark day for Hollywood, or something like that. Whatever. Turns out, we spend more money on buying dvd's and vhs's than we spend in the box office.

Rather than giving us a good, modestly priced alternative to piracy, they are shooting them selves in the foot thinking they are giving us the finger.

In fact, you could (weakly) argue that the music industry is behaving like Bush and Sharon. By making impossible yet seemingly reasonable demands and making sure they aren't met, they get out on top. "You can't pirat a CD" while overpricing the product. "You must crack down on the terrorists amid you" while bombing their police station. "Axis of evil", four relatively unrelated nations singled out and bunched together. Think they will behave now that they know they'll be taken out anyhow?

I'm drifting off what I meant to say.

By using the piracy argument, they are trying to shift public opinion towards schemes like Shakira and Celine Dion. They are even putting them on high-profile disks, hoping that we will buy them, and that cognitive dissonance will stop us from ranting. It is a dumb, dumb bet. They have lost their power, but don't realize it. I just feel sorry for the artists that are bound to suffer from this unneeded shift towards freeloading.

By the way - the best way to support an artist you like is to go to their concert. That is often more profitable for the artist than if you buy their cd. Also, I buy albums I find myself listening to. Hope Sandoval & Warm Inventions. Grant Lee Phillips. Fantomas. Tomahawk. Joe Henry. I also owe a CD or two to Ben Folds Five, Bjork, Air and a couple more.

not just new bands

[hawk]

at $15, I just plain don't buy them. At all. THe last ones I bought were ins something like '98--and I bought those used.

OTOH, at $8-$10, I'd probably have a $50-$100/month habit.

hawk, who if pressed, would admit that there's really not much western music to buy these days, and likely won't be til this stupid "New Country" finally blows over . . .

Oh, and I've bought some ofthe 10-disk sets of classical and one or two of western for about $4/cd . . .

Re:not just new bands

[hawk]

you're being far to kind. More like bubble-gum pop with a vaguely country melody or a misused steel guitar. . . .

And think of all the realy good music we would have missed if waylon & co. hadn't done the outlaw recordings in LA . . .

Also, waylon was one of the ones who was incensed about patrons not getting their service charges refunded by ticket agencies for cancelled concderts (he was in the hospital with Laryngitus or some such), and I believe also for the missing tracks on CD's of albums (there's a biggie missin from his greatest hits [ladies love outlaws? it's not in front of me]).

hawk, who knows of no album better than side 1 of "I've always been crazy" (which he owns), and would actually pay $20 for a cd of that or of Bobby Bare's "The Winner" album

huh?

[hawk]

What an ignorant thing to claim.

The *reasons* for our free market and captialism are *fundamentally* moral.

Capitalism means that you are entitled to the proceeds of assets you own, whether your own labor or land.

Free markets mean that you can buy, sell, or not with assets you control.

The switch from the older feudalism was largely a moral respones to the waste of assets and the intrusions on freedom .

hawk

Re:huh?

[Malcontent]

Well I don't know where you get your definition of morality from. I think you are making it up as you go along. You are simply justifying what you do every day by declaring it a "moral" act.

I can think of no religion, no shaman, no spiritualist anywhere in the world who has said that pursuit of money, greed, buying and selling things are worthwhile goals or means of human moral growth. Not aristotle, not jesus, not budha, not moses, not mohammed. None of them said the path to morality and spiritual growth is through commerce.

OK I just thought of someone. It was Anton Levey the founder of modern day satanism. The goals of capitalism are exactly aligned with the goals of satanism and diametrically opposed to the goals of christianity, budhism, islam, and judaism.

Like I said you are just making it up as go along because it makes you feel better. Go ahead and declare yourself moral becasue you like to buy shiny new things it's better for the economy.

Re:huh?

[hawk]

Congratualations, you have not only misrepresented capitalism, but *everything* I said.

I described what capitalism and ree markets are. THere is nothing about "pursuit of money or greed" in it. It is simply a matter of being allowed to control and benefit from your own things--as opposed to someone *else* controlling and benefitting from them.

Nor did I in *any* way suggest that this was my morality, nor my definition. While I'm far older than the typical slashdot reader, I am *not* over 200 years old--and the Protestant work ethic *is* far older than that. You can agree with or dispute that ethic, but it is the morality behind free markets.

If you try to put anything more into the "goals of capitalism" it's *you* who is making things up as you go along. Yes, some people use the freedom to make staggering amounts of money and hurt other people--that happens with Free Will.

Plain and simply, the alternative to free market capitalism is either to restrict what people are allowed to do with their own labor and other assets, or to assign the proceeds of the labor and other assets elsewhere. You're far more likely to get the results you want by taxing a free market and spending the proceeds on your goals, as every attempt other than first century Christianity failed (and even that one didn't scale well).

I'm plain and simply a couple of hundred years to make this up, though I'd love to take credit for it. :)

hawk

Re:huh?

[Malcontent]

Apparently you are confused about morality. Ethics and mores are secular concepts. Morality and morals are religious concepts. Maybe you can make an argument that capitalism is ethical (I know I can make an argument that it's not) but you can not make an argument that it's moral. For it to be moral there needs to be some religious underpinning behind accumulation of wealth. All religions urge their followers to live a life of simplicity, charity, and service to mankind which looks awful lot like socialism or communism rather then capitalism. Jesus was especially critical of wealth and the accumulation of wealth, Budha preached poverty, mohammed didn't seem to mind pursit of wealth as much but he emphesized charity and service quite a bit. As I stated the only religion that encourages accumulation of wealth and greed is satanism.

As for your other arguments they apply to mores and not morals. The idea of religion is NOT to promote freedom. Religion says that your must put aside your freedom and your base desires and bend to God's will. Satanists say "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" while Christianity implies "do what God wilt shall be whole of the law". The goal of a christian is to do gods will, not their own. Often times that requires subjugating your freedom to a higher power. As a jew or a moslem you may desire to eat a ham sandwich. In a free world you can eat ham sandwitches but if you believe in god then you have to subjugate your desire to eat a ham sandwich and give up that freedom.

A lot of this has to with the abysmal state of the english language. People frequently confuse liberty (or sufferage) with freedom. Freedom is an abstract concept while liberty is a political one. To a religious person freedom is a futile and somewhat evil pursuit. While liberty may be a worthwhile one if it coinsides with God's will. God's will on earth and all that.

BTW are you seriously saying that the "pursuit of money and greed" are not the main driving engine of capitalism or that they have nothing to do with capitalism. I don't know where you get your definition of capitalism but from where I stand capitalism has a lot to do with capital. Maybe there is some strain of capitalism that does not contain greed, gluttony, envy, avarice, covetousness, pride etc as it's driving force but I have never seen it. Can you point me at a capitalistic state that does not encourage it's people to practice the seven deadly sins?

Face it capitalism is good only insofar as greed is good. I know many people make the argument that greed is good but I suspect they do this to try and justify their own greed. It certainly does not come from any religion (except satanism as I said).

Re:Disturbingly Hot Coffee

[Violet Null]

Anyone driving with a cup of hot coffee held between their legs

a) She was not driving
b) At the time the coffee spilled, the car was stopped.

Some settlement wouldn't be too unreasonable, millions of dollars is simply foolishness.

The award was $160,000 for compensatory damages (to cover the third degree burns), and $2.7 in punitive damages. You might say, "Wow, $2.7 million is a lot for punitive damages," but McDonalds had a history of these complaints (700+), and had still not done anything about them.

Of course, the $2.7 mil was reduced to $480,000, and then the plaintiff and McDonalds entered into a secret agreement, so it's kind of moot.

Re:The users were warned! (NOT)

[javatips]

The user has been warned that the CD will no play in a PC or a Mac.

However, nothing is said about reading the content of the disk in a PC or a Mac.

I know it's just a word game. But that's what lawyer do!

No it's not.

[Dirk Pitt]

It'd be like Coca Cola making their drinks evaporate

No, this is a poor analogy. Coke doesn't care if you sell or give the six pack you just bought to your friends and neighbors.

A better analogy could be made if Coke made their drinks evaporate the moment they enter a chemistry lab, to prevent rivals from copying the formula for manufacture and sale. Right or wrong, this is something they or any other tangible-goods company would do in a second if it wasn't in the realm of SF.

Don't try to make analogies to explain 'fair-use' intellecutal property laws using traditional goods-based economics. It just doesn't hold up.

Re:No it's not.

[NanoGator]

"A better analogy could be made if Coke made their drinks evaporate the moment they enter a chemistry lab, to prevent rivals from copying the formula for manufacture and sale. Right or wrong, this is something they or any other tangible-goods company would do in a second if it wasn't in the realm of SF."

This is similar to the original analogy that I wrote, but changed it later to reflect how the music industry feels about sharing what you bought with your friends. The flaw in my analogy is that you cannot buy one Coke and have a bunch of friends drink it at the same time.

I think the idea got across, which was the main purpose of it.

"Don't try to make analogies to explain 'fair-use' intellecutal property laws using traditional goods-based economics. It just doesn't hold up."

Did you really need to be rude? Seriously, the analogy wasn't that weak. Only people trying to prove they're intelligent nitpick details and pretend they can't get the point because of them.

Re:No it's not.

[Dirk Pitt]

I think you're missing my point, and it was totally different from yours.

Did you really need to be rude? Seriously, the analogy wasn't that weak.

I wasn't trying to be rude, nor am I trying to prove myself intelligent, but can't you take some valid criticism? Your analogy makes it sound like the recording industry's interest is in blocking fair use situations--the recording industry could care less about fair use situations. I can absolutely buy a CD, put it into another case, and hand it to my neighbor. It won't dissolve. I cannot copy a CD and give it to my neighbor. It should dissolve, I didn't pay for the second copy.

My point was, you're trying to act like it would be ridiculous for coke to try to do something similar to this, and I don't think would be. If there was a similar opportunity for people to 'steal' coke the way they 'steal' music--and don't try to say they don't, read the 15GB of mp3 comment above someplace--then coke would try to put a similarly stringent protection in place. It sucks, it's not fair for those of us who get a lot of good out of 'fair use', and do pay for our music, but it's the way life is and is the fault of the people that abuse it. You can't really compare it to a traditional manufacturing scenario.

Re:No it's not.

[NanoGator]

"Your analogy makes it sound like the recording industry's interest is in blocking fair use situations--the recording industry could care less about fair use situations"

Not exactly. Here's what I said:

"It'd be like Coca Cola making their drinks evaporate moments after they leave the can, that way nobody could pour the coke into a cup and sell it to somebody else."

The RIAA says you have to listen to the CD, you cannot listen to it off of anything but that. THAT was the point of my analogy.

You're right, they don't care about fair use. They're counting what people do with fair use as lost revenue. That's what's wrong.

The funny thing is, I don't think they care about anybody having 15 gigs of MP3s. I think they're concerned about not being able to sell their $18 garbage disks anymore because people want individual songs. They're just using 'piracy' as a way to get the government involved. Frankly, I think the Gov't has no business trying to pass laws to 'save' a business that creates works that are so easy to recreate. All of the copy protection in the world can't stop a garage band from re-singing and recording the song.

If the RIAA has any concern about people paying for what they have downloaded, they'd provide us with a means to pay for what we have. I don't think anybody would buy an $18 CD just because they downloaded a song they heard on the radio.

"I wasn't trying to be rude, nor am I trying to prove myself intelligent, but can't you take some valid criticism?"

I think I read your response in the wrong tone. I apologize. I get a large amount of flack here because I don't hate MS as much as everybody else. Heh.

You don't know the Dept. of (?)Justice

[HiThere]

Being outside the US didn't stop the US govt from harassing a Norwegian teen ager (DECSS).

The DoJ seems to be intent on requiring all countries in the world to accept US laws, whenever that benefits a corporation.

Well, saying that it's whenever it benefits a corporation is the optomistic reading of the scenario. It could be an illegal extension of govt. power via subterfuge that is most interesting to them. In that case the corporation becomes just a convenient stalking horse, and is likely to be sacrificed when convenient. E.g., the blame will largely be focused on the obvious beneficiary, so people will be angry with the corporations (which did benefit, and go along with what they saw of the scheme). So they would make a great scapegoat. Notice how much of the criticism of Enron has slid off the politicians who benefitted?

Why does hardware/software let itself be crashed?

[A55M0NKEY]

CDs get scratched, so what is read is not always intentional. It seems that CDROMS/Operating Systems ought to be too robust to allow a corrupt or hacked CD to do damage. I would like to know exactly what Hardware/Software combinations are vulnerable to this kind of attack, and whose fault it is so I can not buy brittle hardware/software.

Nice comment- one point...

[Svartalf]

"It's not so much about profit in itself, but about control, because control guarantees profit."

In their (RIAA, MPAA, etc...) minds, maybe. It doesn't always guarantee profit. At some point the control stifles profit because people end up looking elsewhere for cheaper/better things because the control provides too much hassle, etc. That's about to occur with them here.

I know if I couldn't get a CD to play in my player and I wanted (That's the key word there- I probably wouldn't WANT it after finding out the disc was copy protected- it presumes I'm a thief and I don't choose to do business with someone that will willingly assume I'm so without proof to the fact.) the music to be playable, etc. I'd be walking out and getting the cheapest walkman I could find (if I already didn't have one...) and rig it up to my soundcard on my PC and re-encode the entire disc, chop up the sound into songs and then burn a playable disc. It's not hard at all to do this, Radio Shack and other places sell patch cables that will do this whole thing nicely and you can often listen to the disc while you're encoding it.

It's telling that the entire CD showed up on Kazza shortly after it shipped.

Oops...

[NanoGator]

"Uh, mistaken belief. You do buy the right to listen to it, and in a restricted way"

I forgot something in my original post. I was talking about perception, not the legality of it. I should have phrased my statement better. The point of my post was that the RIAA claims that people won't pay for music, and they said that Apple was partly to blame. I was saying that if people think music is free then that is the RIAA's fault for playing them on the radio. When somebody goes to buy a CD, they don't THINK they're buying a license, they THINK they're buying convenience.

I did not make that clear at all, and I apologize.

This is an incentive to download it instead.

[wackybrit]

I don't know if I speak for many, but a year ago I sold my entire hi-fi separates system and my $300 speakers (good by MY standards). The space I'm now living in is WAY too small for these loud luxuries.

So I got a new soundcard, some small high-quality Cambridge Soundworks PC speakers, and started to convert all of my CDs to MP3.

My CD player/hi-fi IS my computer. I even listen to the radio over the Internet now, because I don't have a tuner! For those of us who live in very small spaces/apartments, it's a good idea.

So what do we do when we want to buy CDs? We can't play them on our PCs, so hey.. the ONLY OPTION is to download them! The record companies haven't got their full catalogs onto their digital download sites yet, so what, legally, can I do? Not get the music? That's stupid.

So, they're shooting themselves in the foot when it comes to me. If a CD is protected, I can't buy it even if I wanted to since my CD player IS my PC!

Easy to bypass

[Srin Tuar]

The reason they dont do this is quite simple:
The part of recoding to a lossy format that is actually lossy is the psychoacoustic model: where you filter out bits of the signal in such a way as to make it unnoticeable.

The whole point of doing that is to reduce the amount if information in the music, and hence make it easier to compress.

When you recode, then you are taking that irreversible step twice, and lossy(A) != lossy(lossy(a)), so you get a further degraded signal. (the models are not really designed to deal with already modified music).

If the psychoacoustic model has been preapplied to the music for you hovever, you can simply switch to a lossless format. A properly designed one could be taught to do this well, and for pre-trimmed wave files, its compression would be just as good as ogg or mp3.

hehehe

[linuxpng]

A quick glance at usenet shows 11.2 days ago in alt.binaries.sounds.mp3 the new Celine Dion CD. Guess the protection didn't help much.

Well done!

[DerFeuervogel]

No moderation privileges today, but I had to comment on a well written post.

My local Borders Bookstore is obtaining a copy of this book for me. Should have it by next Friday.

Copyrights and Copywrongs: The Rise of Intellectual Property and How it Threatens Creativity ISBN 0-8147-8806-8

Thanks again.

lucky we didn't ask for tea then

[alext]

Tea requires boiling water doesn't it? (OK, not in hotels, where the waiter thrashes a teabag in lukewarm water until it goes brown, but normally...)

I remember my grandmother used to focus a laser beam on her teapot and wait until it turned into a plasma before serving, but people no longer have time for these civilized rituals.

Try again

[tweakt]

Okay, given that a properly encoded MP3 (e.g. lame --r3mix ) has been proven to be indistinguishable from the source material in double-blind tests

Dude! Get a better set of speakers. If you are listening to this on a set of speakers that came in a cow patterned box, try again. Listen to any MP3 on pro quality headphones and you will be amazed. I think a lot of people are USED to mp3 sound, they don't notice the high end getting absolutely TRASHED by compression. Also, a lot of times the bass response is diminished, most people don't even hear lower bass due to poor bass response of most speakers, and those that due, have loose muddy bass from their speakers anyhow, and wouldn't notice the difference.

Beyond that... you're plan makes no sense whatsoever.

Re:I can stand up to massive amounts of Celine Dio

[Hektor_Troy]

Who are the #1-#4 women? (mainly because I want to see how you misspell them)

#1: Sarha Micehlel Gelar (Sarah Michelle Gellar)
#2: Sania Twine (Shania Twain)
#3: Kyli Minoge (Kylie Minogue)
#4: My soon-to-be former neighbour (but I'm not telling you her name ;-)
#5: Selma Hyak (Salma Hayek)

But - in my fantasies they all react to "honey" :-)

Poor Monkey

[fm6]

Your scrotum? Why not where somebody can... oh. Never mind!

I'm jealous!

[fm6]

My freak list isn't a fraction of the size of yours! It bothers me. If people aren't mad at you, how do you know whether you're making a difference?

No, it's reverse psychology

[Oink.NET]

Does anyone else think that Sony et al are shooting themselves in the feet here?

Ask yourself this question. How many people would have downloaded this album from a P2P network if the CD wasn't "protected"?

Now ask yourself, how many more people will go out of their way to download this album because it's "protected"? If you ask me, they're getting a heck of a lot of free publicity in a demographic that's pretty hard to penetrate (us paranoid geeks).

A potentially unintended side-effect: the publicity benefits the artist at the expense of the company!

Re:Slashdotters

[ConceptJunkie]

Don't worry, when we listen to it, we _will_ be paying...

Re:the obligatory "and in other news..." post

[Arandir]

My Bad :-) Change "shotgun" to "CD" and you'll have what I meant.

Oh yeah?

[Kymermosst]

Mostly I am playing devil's advocate here to solicit responses, and yours is the one that strikes me as worth responding to:

Rather than argue terminology, let us apply your logic to some unpleasant situations that are probably not so self-advantageous to the music "pirate":

Proposed defense lines:

"Virginity is not a tangible thing. When I raped that little boy I didn't take anything from him. He's still got everything he had before I touched him."

"Since the bruises I gave her healed, my girlfriend is in exactly the same condition she was in before I hit her. Consequently, no damage was done."

"Identity is an intangible thing. Just because I used your name, and your social security number, doesn't mean you've lost anything. You still have them both."

Or, a couple of real ones that piss a lot of people off:

"Land value is an intangible thing. Just because I trashed my yard and consequently lowered the appraised value of yours doesn't mean I've done anything to you. You still have everything you had before."

"Land value is an intangible thing. Just because we regulated you out of using it for any reason doesn't mean you've lost anything. You still own the land."

Trying to play the "definition game" is a bullshit defense of obviously immoral action.

We'll use our now-agreed upon painting example. The artist put a lot of time into creating that painting. Many hours of effort. That painting has value because it is unique, that is, in limited quantity. For this example, that quantity is one. At least, it is until someone duplicates it. The mere act of duplication has now doubled the number of exact paintings in the example, and has consequently devalued the original.

The simple act of copying has devalued the painting. Even though you are correct in that the original artist has HIS copy of the painting, it is still less valuable because of the duplication.

When someone knowingly does something that reduces the value of your posessions, (and creative thought IS a posession, stealable or not), is it not akin to stealing? What about Enron? "Stock value isn't real, it's intangible and therefore it was perfectly fine of us to devalue everyone's retirement savings. It's really all little bits of paper, after all."

Now I will argue terminology:

My dictionary (Webster's New Universal Unabridged, Random House) gives the first meaning of "steal" as "to take without permission or right." I have established that by performing the act of copying, at least in regards to a painting, value is indirectly taken from the posessor of the original. Logically, this means that it almost fits the definition of "stealing."

But wait! There's more:

The second meaning is "to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgement." If this doesn't describe illegal copying, what does? Consequently, by definition (using this dictionary) piracy is stealing.

The fifteenth meaning given as an informal meaning is "acquired at a cost far below it's real value." Since I have established, and the market has established, that creative thought does indeed have real value, piracy is also theft by that definition as well.

Surprise! Seems you CAN steal the song.

I hope you can plainly see, that copyright infringement is, in fact, stealing, since we have established that at least one major dictionary seems to think so, and dictionaries reflect current usage.

You can steal the story.

You can steal the song.

You can steal the patented, fatally-flawed, decryption algorithm. (Though I can't imagine why you'd want to :)