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Verisign Ordered to Stop Deceptive Renewal Notices
Ummagumma writes: "CNN is running a story on how the courts have ordered Verisign to stop their deceptive 'renewal notices' to other registrars' customers. I've gotten a couple of these, and was smart enough to figure out what's going on, but this is a dirty practice, of borderline legality. Let's hope they get smacked down hard for this one..."
I wonder how this will spill over into the slamming done by long distance and other phone companies.
Contracts signed under deceptive circumstances are not and should not valid. This is why there is a clause in most contract that states 'I have read and understood this contract' or something to this effect.
Unfortunately this injunction seems to be only applicable to Bulkregister's clients. Does anyone know of other registrars who are currently taking similar action?
I think that this is a good sign, I have always disliked any company practice that is deceptive in any manner, and I feel that it should be illegal for any company to try to deceive customers especially in a way that would hurt other business if their deception tatics work, and lets face the facts, this is targeted at your less-than-average consumer which just makes it all the more insulting and slimy.
These are neither new nor complicated issues; There are precedents for all of them in the non-Internet realm -- but it's been taking judges and lawyers a long time to realize that.
Got Rhinos?
If Verisign is going to spend this sort of money on advertising (I don't know how many of these letters get sent out - but I got one, and only own three domain names) , why not use it to really attract customers rather than piss them off? I mean, make those advertising dollars count! I can think of many ways to add value to the domain registration service - provide limited web / ftp / mail space included in the price, combined offers for books, hardware, etc. with vendors... Sure it takes an investment to do this - but why else are people going to choose one registrar over another? Looks like domain reg. companies are basically attempting snail mail spam... It's on par with the deception in the spam messages you get from "long lost friends" or messages that appear reputable but send you to the animal whorehouses. Looks like one more item, like spam, that doesn't even make it to be read... Way to go Verisign. Will you be spamming electronically next?
"deceptive 'renewal notices'"
Oh, you mean like the dozen or so "helpful reminders" we get from every magazine subscription we own?
My favorite is when they send them 4 months in advance, letting me know that there is a distinct possibility of my life crumbling if I miss an issue.
------
Today's Top Deals
Today I received a message from Bulkregister about this as it would appear to be because ofthem that Verisign are restricted by this injunction.
:o)
Bulkregister are collecting evidence for the forthcoming trial from Bulkregister members - if you're a member send you details including BR membership number to injunction@bulkregister.com
They may require a fax copy or affidavit but personally I think that it's worth it to show Verisign what we think.
I'm not connected with BulkRegister in any way other than being a satisfied customer of their.
M@t
Matt Thompson - Actuality - Insert product here.
Its things like this that make me think a whole overhaul of business schools and other institutions of higher learning is needed. I think things like this have always gone on, but they seem a lot more nasty and prevalent now.
All this crap probably started when Business schools starting using military strategy and Machiavellian philosopy as the ultimate way to win a war with business competition. So in the light of the "ends justify the means", now we have business practices by those who only want their company to win, and they don't care how they do it. Hence my comment about ethics. What goes around comes around, and eventually the entire business world is even more backstabbing and evil than it was before. If its taught in school that this behavior leads to this damage in the system, or the students experience it first hand, perhaps things like this would not happen any more.
All that being said, I'm glad to see that the Law in place to prevent this un-ethical behavior has been used as it was meant to, to stop this sort of unethical behavior. I'd still rather see the solution to the problem be stopping the problem before it occurs, rather than correcting the behavior after the action has been done.
-When going for broke, go for Ithaca!
BulkRegister Gets Injunction Against VeriSign
_ 1122101,00.html
http://www.internetnews.com/isp-news/article/0,,8
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do.
Verisign Ordered to Stop Deceptive Renewal Notices
Posted by timothy on Thursday May 16, @11:10AM
from the getting-off-way-too-easy dept.
getting off way too easy? WTF are you on? Do you even know what an injunction is? What the hell else do you expect at this point?
BilldaCat
Pardon the whoring, but Go Daddy has posted a copy of the notice that Verisign sent out. It does seem fairly shady.
I have a garbage bag full of them. Should I keep them? Is anyone gonna sue?
Assuming they are using the U.S. Mail service to solicit this false-renewl, are they not committing Mail Fraud? Or is it only fraud if they do not provide what they are offering and accept your money anyway?
"Just Smile and Nod." --Huck
BulkRegister Wins Preliminary Injunction Against VeriSign
"The injunction against VeriSign is a definite victory for millions of domain name holders and fellow members of the domain industry," says BulkRegister's CEO Tom Cunningham. "BulkRegister is committed to seeing this matter resolved on behalf of our customers as well as the domain name community at large."
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/020514/dctu071_1.html
Although this ruling doesn't apply to all registrars, just bulkregister, the hope is that now that VeriSign has been warned, they'll stop what they're doing altogether.
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do.
I got one of these notices from them stating my domain was about to expire and I should renew. It made me stop and think for a moment, because I knew I wasn't registered through them (and I thought maybe it was sent on behalf of my registrar or something goofy), but then I realized they were just trying to get me to switch. Not really a tough decision on my part - stay with my current provider at $10/year or switch to them for $35/year.
I had a domain hosted by a company in india which registered the domain for me for 2 years. After a year, I transferred to a hosting company in the US. When the second year was up, I was thinking that I need to track down who the registrar is and renew, when I got a verisign e-mail saying I need to renew. Thinking that was convenient enough, I renewed with them. About a week after I did this I started to see all the articles on slashdot about domain slamming. I looked through some records and realized that Verisign was not my original registrar and they grifted me good, like Homer and the Cooders. I'd like to say I was beaten by the best, but...
Will they go after the "your Internet connection is optimized" banners now?
The final straw for me was when I received a mailing from them advertising discount renewal rates. The only thing was that they were bogus. After spending lots of time on their website and email customer service, I releaized it wasn't going to happen.
So I switched to directnic. They're cheap, and the FAQ pages do an excelent job of explaining the domain transfew process which was a concern. So some other place out and get Verisign off of you back too. :)
Verisign is, by offering the 9-year plan, making similar mistakes to IBM when they sold instead of leased their mainframe hardware.
So if everybody (who is a Verisign customer), were to go ahead and buy for 9 years, Verisign would actually see a good profit this year, then work that profit direction into future plans' budgets, only to have them fail utterly because nobody would be buying anything from them the next 3-8 years...
Stock prices would drop. Execs would be canned. Heads would roll...
"My God, it would be beautiful..."
"But remember, most lynch mobs aren't this nice." (H.Simpson)
-- Joe
..when they sold the email addresses of all their domain holders to the spammers (and spammers since they are of questionable legality then sold cheap knockoffs of the CDs to other spammers). Since the internic database of actual email addresses that their customers were using to be informed of changes/renewal notices to their domain names with them, it was an especially sleaze thing to do. I am glad that justice was delivered this time.
-----
Cast a Cold Eye
On Life, on Death
Horseman, pass by
--W.B. Yeats' gravestone
Someone needs to slap Versign and Network Solutions. Not only are they under handed and sneaky with the domain renewal notices but the hold on to expired domains for ever. I tried for 4 months to get a domain that expire in December, but they refused to take it out of the registry. Now they claimed that it might have something to do with a legal preceding but I am pretty sure that was complete bull because I worked for the company (now out of business) that had the domain name. All they are trying to do is get me to pay that extra hold fee for soon to be expire domain names. In other words they are holding the domain for randsome.
/.ers to boycott Versign....
Versign has a virtual monopoly now in certificate after buying their South African Competitor.
Network Solutions is so easy to high jack domains from that it is a joke. Just send a fax or forged email.
No, it's time to put Versign out of business. I am calling for all
they could stop all the 'deceptive practices' that spammers use.
Seriously tho, if only people take some time to read what they're signing away to, instead of blaming everyone else.
Yes, it's deceptive but it doesn't mean that it should negate your common sense.
So, in other words, this little "renewal" notice made it appear like it was time for me to renew the domain registered through VeriSign, even though I really would have been transfering two other domains instead.
VeriSign is evil and deserves to die. Apparently, their product can't compete on its own merits any more; they have to resort to deception to sell it.
Perhaps someone can let me know why, when I submitted this exact story yesterday, it was quickly rejected:
* 2002-05-15 21:44:50 Verisign order to stop ads (articles,news) (rejected)
Then they need to do the same thing to Domain Registrars of America, who uses the same practice.
I have gotten three 'renewal' notices for different domains and I don't use them as a registrar. I also have a client who fell for this, their old registrar froze their domain on them becuase their e-mail was bad on their record, and the 'renewal'/transfer didn't go through. When confronted about the 'renewal' notice, they said that was just the way they 'worded' the advertisement. Yeah right.
Look at this crap these bozos spam me with. I include the headers for your MTA filtering pleasure.
.com/.net/.org, you are advised to register .ws "web site" domain before someone else takes it forever.
.ws "web site" domains for their company names
.ws "web site" domains are in 180+ countries worldwide
.ws is ~88% compared to ~24% for .com
.ws below interesting. .ws "web site"
.ws domain
.com arena, and received payment in full .ws domain .ws web sites, giving .ws even more
Return-Path:
Received: from mail.hisensecomputer.com ([61.179.118.9])
by Mail.fakedomain.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g48CYxA06163
for ; Wed, 8 May 2002 08:35:01 -0400
Message-Id:
Received: from smtp0100.mail.yahoo.com (SAP11 [12.109.16.76]) by mail.hisensecomputer.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.1960.3)
id KQFDA53C; Wed, 8 May 2002 20:34:07 +0800
Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 05:20:29 -0700
From: "Domain Name Registration"
X-Priority: 3
To: ashurbanipala1@computer.org
Subject: IMPORTANT NOTICE: Regarding your domain name
IMPORTANT NOTICE: Regarding your domain name
* If you own a
your
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*
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We thought you'd find the article on
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give us a call at +1.888.660.0625.
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Internet Names, LLC.
NEWS RELEASE:
.WS (WebSite) Domains Strikes Landmark Deal:
GDI receives $2,250,860 for the rights to 311 "premium"
names.
Last week, GDI (Global Domains International, Inc.), the registy for.ws
"web site" domains, closed a deal with a large publicly traded company,
one of the biggest players in the
of $2,250,860 for the rights to a select group of "premium"
names. The 311 domain names will be resold to the highest bidders and
ultimately developed into substantial
publicity down the road.
I had attempted to transfer a domain name out of their control last month. They never sent the acknowledgement confirmations, so the transfer was denied. I spoke with NetSol and they assured me it would work this time and to have the new registrar try again. I did so and nothing happened, so they tried once more. By this time, the domain had expired and NetSol refused to transfer it.
I strongly suspect this is policy. Jerk folks around until they have to pay us for one more year.
Who can be formally complained to about this? Is ICANN really involved in taking action against dirty players? Is there any recourse or any way around NetSol at this point? Now that the domain has expired, could I simply re-register with a different registrar?
Ya, but they're not the only ones doing this kind of crap. I keep getting these fake "YOU'RE DOMAIN'S EXPIRING" notices from all kinds of other companies. I hope the whole mess is cleaned up.
In general, I'm pretty happy with most of VeriSign's services, even if they are a bit pricey.
What really upsets me is that they're not just using deceptive renewal notices to trick other provider's customers, but they're also sending them out to their current users.
I get e-mail/mail from VeriSign all the time warning me that I need to respond by a certain date or I'll lose my services. Nowhere in the notice does it have the actual date that the account expires. Looking at my own records or checking my account, I find out that the actual required date is weeks or even months after their "important notice" warns me to respond. I've become so accustomed to ignoring their mail, I've almost missed renewing a couple of (non-critical) domains.
What's troubling is that they don't seem to realize just how stupid their strategy is -- it might be the only way an upstart provider could gain customers -- but they *are* the brand name in registrars. They should be so ahead of everyone else and be trying to capitalize on what's left of their legitimacy to build on trust and user loyalty, rather than acting like some fly-by-night spammer operating out of a rented basement apartment.
Asinine stunts like this are destroying the only competitive advantage they really have. They should send someone to take a first year general business course, maybe that will help them get a clue.
My next sig will be ready soon, but friends can beat the rush!
He meant, overlooked or misunderstood by the courts and such, not by those of us who already had a clue about what Verisign was doing. I gotta admit, I had the same initial reaction that you did; it took a second reading - and looking at the post's title - for me to understand what zpengo meant. This would now be a good time to apologize to zpengo. ;-)
Besides the deceptive fake billing notices from VeriSign and other (American Registry?), VeriSign employs a few other sleezy tactics.
I use OpenSRS for all my registrations, and one of my customers just lost control of his domain name to VeriSign (who also stripped his e-mail, name and company name off of the domain record - and when he called VeriSign they denied any knowledge of them having the domain in their system - even though whois clearly showed it!) Anway, someone in his office paid the "invoice", thus initiating the transfer. The real registrar (OpenSRS) sends out an e-mail to the admin contact notifiying him of the transfer and providing a link and a password to approve the transfer. Unfortunately, ICANN rules state that if you do nothing in 5 days (i.e. specifically deny the transfer), that lack of action in 5 days counts as an acknowledgement to approve the transfer! Bang - bye bye domain name.
Another customer got his renewl notice from VeriSign (a legit one), paid it via credit card, and 4 days AFTER he paid it, VeriSign sold his name to a company in Taiwan. Now VeriSign is telling him there's no way to get the domain back. Argh..
And my final vent on VeriSign. I was watching a domian that expired in March 2000 on their system. I had opened up 3 separate trouble tickets with VeriSign in an attempt to get them to release the domain so I could buy it. Not once did I ever get a response back on one of my trouble tickets. I checked the domain for release almost every day - until one day I see that's it's now owned by a company in Taiwan who is just simply reselling it now for $1500.
He fell for it (I think I'll be sending him all sorts of offers now :)
He called Verisign and Register.com and got the domain name sorted out, but Verisign has been giving him the runaround for months about refunding his money (fool sent a check in).
They were even gonna deduct $4 for a processing fee for the refund.
They'll get their wrists slapped, change their tactics slightly, and continue pushing the boundaries of the law. The penalties aren't severe enough to warrant changing their behavior.
include $sig;
1;
I've gotten several of these myself. Since they were kind enough to but a PAID return envelope, I filled it with other junk mailers (none that have any way to identify me) and sent it merilly back. Maybe if it costs them enough, they will think about it next time. With our luck, it will be a spam attack though...
NOCORVAIR
Take 5 minutes, right now, and fill out complaint forms on the following websites:
- BBB.org
- FTC
- USPS Post Master [usps.com]
Tell these agencies what you received. Send a message to Verisign that we will not put up with this bull crapyea sure they'll get "smacked down hard" for this. i fluffy pat on the wrists is what they'll get. damn the man!
I have to admit that I fell for Verisign's mailer and I gave them permission to "renew" (transfer) one of my domains. I have a few with Verisign already, which is why I got duped, but this particular one wasn't.
The great thing was that the registrar with whom my domain was actually hosted (Tucows) sent me an e-mail asking for my permission to release the domain. Realizing I had fallen prey to Verisign's schemes, I replied that I do not give permission.
The transfer didn't occur and I kept my money.
If you want more customers, instead of using trickery and underhandedness, why don't you try offering your customers the same, or better, quality and benefits as all your competitors?
Verisign's service sucks when compared to offerings from other companies, like address forwarding, email accounts, etc. I am aware that you can do these things with Verisign, but they want to nickel and dime you to death (which is why I switched to another company). Other organizations give you these services for the price of signing up; as it should be.
Verisign bought NetSol? No one (or at least only a few people) thought it was a good idea then, and of course, leave it to a big corporation to rely on trickery and deceit to generate business.
Borderline legality? No. Now with a court order to restrain the behavior, it is "illegal."
Not Borderline. Fully.
I removed all identifying items and sent it back to them (including the orig envelope) in the no postage required envelope that they (stupidly) provided. Hopefully they get enough of them it will cost them a bundle!
I do all of my registration online anyway, so realized that it was a scam once I got a little further into the process. That said, Verisign offered a one year subscription at $24, while my original registrar stayed firm at $29/year. So I switched.
Info for readers to learn more of what was really their greatest sin: the retroactive selling of customer's emails and phone numbers from the whois database.
The details:
-A complete copy of all the personal information in the whois database was sold.
-Each copy was sold for $10,000--made payable to the company.
-The list was retroactive, selling the info of all the existing customers, not just the new ones signing up after the sell announcement was made.
It doesn't seem to have been archived by many of the usual news outlets. Here is a coverage of it from the Washington Post at the time (about half way down is the mention of them selling the customer contact data to anyone wanting it):
Washington Post article
But this link is the real kicker: the VeriSign tagline motto, considering these types of shady dealings with their customers: The service-marked VeriSign tagline
-----
Cast a Cold Eye
On Life, on Death
Horseman, pass by
--W.B. Yeats' gravestone
Verisign isn't the only company doing this. I occasionally get faxes marked urgent, telling me my domain name is going to expire, and I can renew it by calling this number (I forget the company). I get letters from Register.com warning me my domains are going to expire, and that I should renew with them. I get them from some other companies, but I throw them away and I don't remember who they were.
Someone else commented about Verisign's service regarding address forwarding and email accounts. I couldn't care less about those services. I bought a domain name and I use an ISP to host it. I get web space, email accounts, etc. Why would you want to use a registrar for this?
I have four domains with Verisign and haven't had any problems with them. I don't get any renewal letters until my domains are about to expire, I haven't had any strange bills.
There are plenty of other registrars out there besides Verisign that are involved in sleazy activity. Just because they are a rather large company doesn't mean they are evil.
Register.com does the exact same thing. I have a domain registered with Verisign that is coming due next month. I received mail from Register.com that states in big letters:
"You must renew your domain name" (then in smaller letters) "...or you could lose it. We've made it easy for you, and included a transfer offer that could save you over $90."
Just as bad...
Even before this debacle, Verisign/NetSol was offering t-shirts to registrants who renewed their domain names for 2+ years. There are reports (including mine to substantiate it) that they did not follow up on delivering those promotional items. (Customer service did not respond to multiple inquiries.) In the end, consumer backlash (i.e., switching to registrants with more ethical business practices) will determine Verisign's fate.
I work for an ISP/webhosting company and I personally own 4 domains. We have had VeriSign tell us that we have to renew for a year before it can be transferred and after it's renewed, you have to pay for another year for a transfer. So you're paying VeriSign do nothing.
I've received renewal notices from VeriSign for MY domains that I had JUST transferred FROM them, and I've actually had a transfer authorization request coming from my NEW registrar of DomainDiscover.com asking me to confirm a transfer of a domain BACK to verisign. Needless to say, I denied that transfer.
As a webhosting company we had been using VeriSign for a few years, but we started moving all of our domains over to DomainDiscover simply because of comments the CEO of VeriSign had said. I can't remember the URL but he had literally said in a press conference that they had the power to take the internet down. When I saw that, that was when the order was issued to move all our sites.
Aside from all that (and there are many more stories I can tell you about them and their practices). One post said "it might be deceptive but that doesn't mean ignore common sense" and that's true. As a Domain owner it is YOUR responsibility to know when and were your domain is and expires. And it behooves your host to make sure you are aware of these things. We take the extra time to TELL our customers things of this nature. They are informed that their Domain is registered with DomainDiscover and if they receive anything of this nature to throw it away.
As a host we have even started to speak with our customers about this type of situation and ask them if they are willing to move their domain a little early even having to pay for another year to do the transfer(We still haven't moved them all). When we explain what is going on, they are happy to do so.
The point to all this is, Sure VeriSign is acting poorly, but that doesn't excuse people from knowing what's going on with THEIR property. I say that everyone needs to find a Registrar and move their domains without question. BUT KNOW WHERE YOUR DOMAIN IS!! I can't stress that enough.
If you are Canadian who has been scammed, or if you have been scammed by a Canadian domain registrar, please click here to contact him by e-mail or use the following address (remove the spaces): .com
S K 1 @canada
(Don't reply to me). Thanks.
Maybe i'm just overlooking something, but is it known how VeriSign aquired the mailing addresses of all the people they are trying to dupe?
It seems (obvious) to me that the only way for them to collect this information (outside purchasing it from their competitors databases) is to grep it out of whois query results.. Which leads me to my point... Aren't there clauses in whois results that bar this sort of thing from happening? My results for a whois verisign.com return:
[snip] By submitting a WHOIS query, you agree to use this Data only
for lawful purposes and that under no circumstances will you use this Data to:
(1) allow, enable, or otherwise support the transmission of mass unsolicited,
commercial advertising or solicitations via e-mail, telephone, or facsimile; or
(2) enable high volume, automated, electronic processes that apply to VeriSign
(or its computer systems). [more legal blah blah follows]
So whats the deal? Aren't they breaking their own rules? I noticed they didn't say mass postal mail, but that's inferred by everything else, right?
IANAL, but i'd appreciate people's comments on it.
I use godaddy and I love it. Its cheap, a good POS, and here is a copy of the notice.
I wanted to buy a candle holder, but the store didn't have one. So I got a cake.
Seems like Verisign might have already moved on to their next technique for tricking people back into their lackluster service. Today I received a phone call from a Verisign rep that wanted to tell me all about their great new priority support phone number for very important clients like me that have many domains with Verisign. Of course I listened intently because I was too shocked to do anything else! Verisign promoting the fact that they even have a phone number?!?!? This must be a dream? Then after telling me all about this great new level of support service that Verisign would be providing to me as long time valued client, he would be glad to help me renew my domains that were about to expire while I was on the phone rather than having to go through the web site(!). He listed several domains, all of which had already been transferred to another registrar, none of which were about to expire.
What a deal! Where do I sign?
I dont see any big deal with this, they are simply soliciting valid customers. Other registrars do it. So why dont they do it. I remember having a conversation with my versign rep candidly talking about why they should do it because their competition was doing it to them. the government should butt out, they are getting a little too nosey and catering to the whiners not the do`ers
pretzel_logic
The ACCC is acting on these in Australia as there are a few companies who are allegedly doing the same. ACCC have announced action against Internet Name Group, and are collecting complaints against other companies, such as Internet Registrations Australia who are also allegedly conducting these operations. If you've been stung by any of these groups in Australia then the ACCC may be interested in hearing from you.